Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 52 of A Storm of Swords, in which we cover Chapter 80 (“Sansa”) and the Epilogue.
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 80: Sansa
What Happens
Sansa awakes in the Eyrie, and reminds herself that she is Alayne Stone now, not Sansa Stark. She finds the keep dreary and frightening; her only companions are her maid and Lord Robert, who is “eight going on three.” Marillion the singer is there too, who always seems to be singing directly at Sansa. Sansa thinks Lysa is just as lonely as she is, as Petyr is often gone. Jon Arryn’s bannerman resent his marriage to Lysa, and several Houses are near to spurning her for her refusal to aid Robb.
Sansa sees it is snowing, which reminds her painfully of Winterfell. She dresses and goes down to the garden below. She makes snowballs, but remembers she has no one to throw them at, so she begins making a large snow castle instead, which she soon realizes is a replica of Winterfell. She works on it obsessively, ignoring those who come to the windows to watch her, even Lady Lysa, until Petyr appears and gives her advice on how to keep her bridges from collapsing.
He remarks that he’d always thought Winterfell was a cold, dark place, but Sansa tells him it was always warm inside. He helps her construct the greenhouses from twigs, commenting that it is good to see her smile again. When they finish the Broken Tower, she hits Petyr in the face with a snowball, for bringing her here instead of home as he’d promised. He admits he played her false in that, and then pulls her close and kisses her.
Shocked, Sansa wrenches away and asks, what about Lady Lysa, but he answers she “has no cause for complaint.” Sansa points out that she could have been his own daughter, but Petyr replies that she isn’t. She realizes there is no one to save her from him, but then Lord Robert appears to exclaim over the castle. Sansa tells him it is Winterfell, and Lord Robert promptly begins to knock it down. Sansa cries for him to stop, but he ignores her. She grabs at his doll, and accidentally rips off its head. Robert wails, and then falls down in an apparent seizure.
Maester Colemon soon arrives to give the boy dreamwine, and has him sent to his chambers for a leeching. Sansa tries to apologize, but Robert says she killed his doll and he hates her. After they leave, Sansa angrily puts the dollhead on a stake and plants it among the ruins of her snow castle, which amuses Petyr. She goes back to her chambers and wonders whether Lysa will have her sent away. She thinks she would welcome banishment, and decides to tell Lysa she doesn’t want to marry Robert.
Lysa later sends Marillion to summon her, and Sansa reflects that the singer is loathed by everyone in the Eyrie except Lysa and Lord Robert. She ignores his smarminess and goes with him to the High Hall; she is uneasy when Marillion shuts and bars the doors after them. Lysa is alone on the dais, and tells Sansa she saw what she did. Sansa again tries to apologize for the doll, but:
“Will you play the coy deceiver with me?” her aunt said. “I was not speaking of Robert’s doll. I saw you kissing him.”
Sansa protests that Petyr kissed her, but Lysa dismisses this. She says she will find “some common girl” to take Sansa’s whipping for her, but demands that she own up first. Sansa sticks to her story, and Lysa tells her “big eyes and strumpet’s smiles” will not win Petyr away from Lysa. She rants that everyone tried to take him from her, including Catelyn, who (she says) led him on and mocked him. Sansa protests, and Lysa tells her about the night Catelyn danced six times with Petyr, but laughed at him when he tried to kiss her.
Sansa again insists that Petyr kissed her, but Lysa says she enticed him, just as her mother did. She tells of how she gave up her virginity to comfort Petyr that night, even though he called her “Cat” in bed. Frightened by Lysa’s mad mien, Sansa assures her that Petyr is hers, but Lysa continues to rave, confessing that she got pregnant from her night with Petyr, and the marriage to Jon Arryn was to prevent her dishonor becoming public. Sansa swears she will never kiss or “entice” him again, which Lysa takes as admission of guilt.
Lysa then grabs Sansa and drags her to the Moon Door and orders her to open it. Sansa does so, hoping Lysa will let her go if she obeys. Lysa forces her to the threshold and makes her look down at the six hundred foot drop beyond. Sansa struggles and pleads with Lysa, but Lysa presses her closer to the edge. Sansa screams, and grabs Lysa’s hair, and now they are both sliding to the edge.
Littlefinger bursts in and demands to know what is happening, and Lysa shouts that Sansa kissed him. Petyr protests that she is a child, and surely has learned her lesson. Sansa sobs that she has. Lysa cries that she doesn’t want Sansa there, and Petyr assures her that they’ll send her away. Lysa screams a negative, and says he “can’t want her,” and begs his forgiveness for not knowing they were aborting their baby. Petyr says it is all in the past, and Lysa should not talk so much. Lysa ignores this and reminds him it was she who got him his first post, who loved him best. She says Sansa is just like her mother. Petyr talks soothingly to her, trying to talk her down.
“Tears, tears, tears,” she sobbed hysterically. “No need for tears… but that’s not what you said in King’s Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon’s wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever… you were always clever, I told Father that, I said Petyr’s so clever, he’ll rise high, he will, he will, and he’s sweet and gentle and I have his little baby in my belly… Why did you kiss her? Why? We’re together now, we’re together after so long, so very long, why would you want to kiss herrrrrr?”
Petyr promises her that they will be together as long as they both shall live, and she flings herself at him, sobbing. Sansa crawls away from the Moon Door, shaking. Petyr kisses Lysa and assures her he has only ever loved one woman.
Lysa Arryn smiled tremulously. “Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?”
“Only Cat.” He gave her a short, sharp shove.
Lysa stumbled backward, her feet slipping on the wet marble. And then she was gone. She never screamed. For the longest time there was no sound but the wind.
Marillion gapes in shock. Petyr tells Sansa to let the guards in, and tell them the singer has killed his lady wife.
Commentary
Well, then.
Uh. Damn.
So, this chapter wasn’t nerve-racking or anything. Holy crap, I might need to go lie down for a while.
One thing’s for sure: I knew someone was going to go through that door before this scene was over, and I spent most of it genuinely terrified that it was going to be Sansa. Catelyn proved, after all, that having the chapter be from your own POV is no guarantee at all of safety, so I honestly did not have any assurance at all here that Sansa wasn’t going to die.
Which is masterful from a writing point of view, and incredibly stressful from a reading point of view, dammit. I have grown far too used (as I think most of us in the modern Western world have) to being assured that the story is not going to off your protagonist characters. And granted, I’ve been having that particular stool kicked out from under me for pretty much the entirety of ASOIAF, but somehow it still never stops being a shock.
But it didn’t happen this time, and once again I am in the position of being both relieved at a character’s death and guilty for feeling that relief. There is absolutely no doubt that Lysa’s murder solves any number of problems, and there is even less doubt that girl was batshit crazy and at least partially deserved such an end, but I am left squirming with the knowledge of the extent to which Lysa is revealed here to also have been a cruelly manipulated victim, for most of her life.
And her very batshit craziness is part and parcel of that victimhood. Not to get my modern-day psychological theory all over this medievalish setting, but there is a genuine question here, in retrospect, of how much Lysa can be said to have been responsible for her own actions. It can definitely be argued that she is a textbook case of non compos mentis when it comes to the crimes she committed.
Speaking of which, whoa. Did I know before this that she was the one who poisoned Jon Arryn, and lied to Catelyn and Ned about it? I feel like I did know that part of it before, but I don’t think I knew that it was Petyr who Svengalied her into doing it.
One thing’s for sure, whatever else you want to say about Littlefinger (and I can say many things, most of them highly uncomplimentary), your boy has a tenth dan black belt in Machiavellian subterfuge. Not that we didn’t already know this, but damn. Just how much of everything that’s happened since freakin’ AGOT can be traced back to this asshole? Does he even care that he was possibly largely responsible for plunging the entire continent into civil war? Or was that the whole point in the first place?
Jeez.
And I certainly was too quick to absolve him of ulterior motives re: Sansa, that’s for sure. When he kissed Sansa in the garden in this chapter I all but shouted at the book WELL OF COURSE YOU WENT THERE, DICKFACE. It just took him a couple of extra chapters! UGH. I shoulda oughta known bettah.
And one definite disadvantage of Lysa’s death is that now he basically has no reason at all not to continue trying to coerce Sansa into his bed. I repeat: UGH.
As for Marillion, I have no sympathy for him at all. The only reason his getting framed for Lysa’s death sucks is that it means Petyr won’t get blamed for it. Which, by the way, is also proof that Petyr is a master of manipulation not only in the long term, but also when it comes to thinking on his feet. I could almost admire him if he didn’t make me want to take a shower every time he talks.
So there’s that. But going back to Lysa for a moment, I would be remiss if I failed to examine my concerns about how her character is a veritable laundry list of practically every negative female stereotype in fiction ever. From her physical description of ugliness (subtly encouraging the reader to have more contempt for her than if she were beautiful) to her hyper-protective and smothering behavior toward Lord Robert (making her son a weak and emasculated Momma’s boy, the ultimate maternal sin), to the fact that her every motivation as a character, as her frantic babble to Petyr here confirms, is defined by a frenzied and (we perceive) pathetic desperation to be (a) loved and (b) pregnant, there is nothing about Lysa that we are not culturally primed to loathe. Her insanity is literally hysteria, in the original (and very misogynistic) sense of the term, and it is practically tailor-made to inspire not pity or compassion, but disgust, in its terrible, terrible femininity.
I find this problematic, needless to say. Not least because I’m pretty sure some of the things I myself have said about Lysa in the past indicate that I fell prey to this contempt myself, without examining it further. Which just goes to show you how insidious such cultural conditioning really is, that even a person like myself, who writes about the feminist perspective on a regular basis, can miss it if I’m not paying attention.
But Lysa’s performance in this scene brings the issue so strongly to the fore that it was impossible to ignore—even, I think, if you don’t have a background in examining gender issues (though I could be wrong about that). Which is what makes me wonder whether or not Lysa’s avalanche of negative feminine stereotypes was a deliberate choice on Martin’s part.
This is an iffy question, because unfortunately it’s been my experience that negative gender stereotypes are far more likely to show up because either the author is still laboring under the impression that they are a legit common characterization of female (or male) characters, or that he or she simply didn’t notice them creeping in there. However, Martin has a rather excellent track record so far of showing that he thinks of his female characters as characters first (i.e. people) and as female second, especially compared to many of his (male) peers, so I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
If Lysa had been the only female character I had seen in ASOIAF I would have been very critical indeed, but set against a larger cast which includes people like Catelyn, Brienne, Ygritte, Arya, and even Cersei, it is much easier to conclude that Lysa was meant to represent an unfortunate extreme of buying into, internalizing, and eventually succumbing to her own society’s sexist demeaning of her. When you consider her hysteria is paired with Lysa’s own misogyny toward Sansa and Catelyn both, assigning them a whole passel of other negative female stereotypes (e.g., Beautiful = Slutty, being nice to a man means you obviously want to/should/must sleep with him otherwise you’re leading him on, the inherent implication that other women exist only as competition for a man’s interest… and that’s just to name a few)… well, it’s possibly just a little too pointed to be all an accident. At least I hope so.
(It’s delightful that there are just so many ways to demean a woman to choose from, innit?)
There’s probably more here to be discussed, but I think I will leave it for now.
As a final note on this chapter, the scene where Sansa builds her snow-Winterfell is probably one of the more poignant and sad-making scenes in the whole novel, in my opinion.
Epilogue
What Happens
On the road up to Oldstones, a hungover Merrett Frey thinks that snow so early in the riverlands is a bad sign. He had once hoped to be a great knight, but owing to a head injury, now was only the Twins’ greatest drinker. He assures himself, though, that if he ransoms Petyr Pimple safely from the “lightning lord’s sorry lot of brigands,” his luck will change. He reflects on his unfortunate lot in life, including his wife and children, and the final humiliation of his role in Roslin’s wedding, when Lame Lothar had told him his job was to make sure the Greatjon Umber was blind drunk and unable to fight by the end of the night. Worse, he had failed at that, since the Greatjon had done an immense amount of damage before he was brought down.
He reaches the ruins on time, and finds a single outlaw there, sitting on a sepulcher and playing a harp, and who seems to think Merrett ought to recognize him for playing at his daughter’s wedding. Then the other outlaws, at least a dozen, surround him, demanding the ransom. They take the bag from him without showing him Petyr first. Merrett demands to see Beric Dondarrion, and several men laughingly claim to be him. Fearful, Merrett demands Petyr, and they make him dismount and walk with them to the godswood.
There, he finds that they have already hanged Petyr, and the outlaws seize Merrett and bind him, and throw a noose over his head as well. Merrett splutters that they would never dare hang a Frey, but the others laugh at him. Merrett says Lord Walder will ransom him for twice as much as Petyr, but the singer scoffs that Lord Walder isn’t that stupid. He offers to let Merrett go if he answers a question, about “a dog” named Sandor Clegane, if he was at the Red Wedding, along with a skinny girl or boy of about ten. Merrett answers that he might have been in the outer camps, but not at the feast.
The singer shrugs and goes to hang him anyway, and Merrett pleads with them, saying he has children. The one-eyed outlaw replies that the Young Wolf never will have children. Merrett protests that Robb shamed them, and they had to restore their honor. The outlaw answers that they don’t know much about honor, but plenty about murder. Merrett insists it was vengeance, and then says he didn’t do any of it, his father did, and they can’t prove he did. The singer tells him he’s wrong, and then a woman approaches.
Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother’s blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone’s. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated.
“She don’t speak,” said the big man in the yellow cloak. “You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers.” He turned to the dead woman and said, “What do you say, m’lady? Was he part of it?”
Lady Catelyn’s eyes never left him. She nodded.
Merrett Frey opened his mouth to plead, but the noose choked off his words. His feet left the ground, the rope cutting deep into the soft flesh beneath his chin. Up into the air he jerked, kicking and twisting, up and up and up.
Commentary
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…
…
OKAY, WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK.
No, seriously. What the fuck?
I REPEAT: WHISKEY, TANGO, FOXTROT, OVER.
Catelyn is alive? How… what…
But, I don’t. What is this I can’t even. I feel like I’m insane right now.
Didn’t she have her throat slit? And then wasn’t she then thrown in a river? How the hell could she have survived that? What, is she Jean Grey or something? Are we in a Marvel comic right now? How…
…Dude. Is Catelyn a fucking WIGHT?
Pardon me, I must gibber a moment.
*gibber*
…Okay, on further reflection, she’s probably not a wight. Because if so, I imagine there would have been a whole lot more random homicide going on in this scene (as opposed to (presumably) rational-minded collaboration on very non-random hangings, natch). Plus, we are kind of really far from typical wight territory right now.
So, not a wight. Probably. But then, what the hell… oh. Right.
Riiight, Beric and his eclectic collection of My Shoulda-Been Death Wounds, Let Me Gross You Out With Them. Ahhhh. Okay, things are making a little more sense.
Not a lot more sense, mind you, because I am entirely unclear on how Thoros et al could have gotten to her body quick enough to—well, I am hesitant to define what they did as healing it, by the description, but let’s call it “slapping on a shit-ton of mystical duct tape” and think about it later—unless through a stroke of amazing luck. Which, I suppose, could be the case, but, uh.
I can’t even say I am glad she’s back, really, because as angry as I was at Catelyn’s supposed demise, I don’t think anyone in the world would want to come back like this.
Well. Unless you were hell-bent on revenge above all else, of course. Which I’m gonna go out on a limb here and bet that’s the case for Catelyn. So, I suppose my opinion’s not the relevant one, here.
(Also, once again I prove here that commenting on one chapter before going on to the next can have unintentionally hilarious results, re: my comment about Catelyn’s POV in Sansa’s chapter commentary. If there’s any afterlife to be had in Westeros culture (I’m sure I’ve been told if there was but I’m hazy on it) I bet Lysa is pissed that she ended up beating Catelyn there.)
So! I guess that’s what you call ending it with a bang. As long as the “bang” is the sound of my head exploding.
And thus ends, quite dramatically, Book Three of ASOIAF!
So let’s rack up the former murder mysteries we now have culprits for (that I can remember, of course):
- Jon Arryn = Lysa (at Petyr’s instigation)
- Robert = Cersei
- Bran (attempted) = Joffrey
- Joffrey = the Queen of Thorns, Lady Tyrell
I’m sure there are others I’m forgetting (even discounting the many murders for whom we’ve always known the culprit), but those are the ones that leap to mind.
As for an overall sum-up of the book, I’m finding that… difficult, which is less surprising once I remember that I started recapping this thing over a year ago. Holy crap.
I can say, however, that it has been overall, an absolutely stunning book. And I mean that in every possible sense of the word. I don’t know that I can say I loved it—it was just a little too mean to me for that—but its brilliance in delivering character and plot punches (to the face, more often than not) cannot be denied. I can totally see why HBO was itching to turn this series into a TV show, because drama is not even in it.
I will perhaps have more cohesive things to say about where the story stands later. But I am exhaustified at the moment, so for now, administrative stuff!
Next Thursday, as the Americans in the audience know, is Thanksgiving. And since I typically take a break after finishing a novel in these things anyway, that turns out to be very serendipitous. Therefore, there will be no ROIAF post next Thursday, November 28th.
The Read will resume on December 5th, but we will not be starting A Feast for Crows, the fourth book in the series proper. Instead, as suggested by many and affirmed by the Powers That Be, I will be reading the first of the satellite novellas, The Hedge Knight: A Tale of the Seven Kingdoms, which originally appeared in the first of the Legends anthologies, edited by Robert Silverberg. Hooray!
After some discussion, we’ve decided that after THK I will be reading the second novella, The Sworn Sword, which originally appeared in the second Legends anthology, Legends II: Dragon, Sword, and King (also edited by Silverberg). I will most likely not get through TSS before the blog goes on hiatus for the holidays, but we’ll probably get started on it.
After that (in case you’re curious), I’ll be reading AFFC, then the third novella, The Mystery Knight, then A Dance With Dragons, and then I believe there is a fourth short story after that? I’m not sure but I think this means I am reading everything in publication order, which pleases my neat-freak side.
But for now, a brief rest! I hope y’all have enjoyed the Read so far, and it’s sure to only get wackier from here, I bet, so stick with me! Cheers, and see you Thursday after next!
Victory is mine!!!!!! King the Vale, King of the Trident!
p.s. only Cat.
And, hello Dark Catelyn.
Leigh, I am pretty sure you are wrong that you already knew Lysa poisoned John Arryn. This chapter was the first time that information was revealved. Up to this point, most readers thought the Lannisters were behind it.
You’re right, though, that Littlefinger seems to be the mastermind behind almost everything that has happened in this series so far. He had John Arryn murdered and set off the War of the 5 Kings. He wooed the Tyrells to the Lannister side after Renly’s death, giving the Lannisters victory over Stannis. And he (probably) betrayed the Lannisters, plotting with Oleanna Tyrell to murder Joffrey.
So what does he want? I think he just wants to stir up as much chaos as possible, so he can increase his own power.
Yay! I *heart* The Hedge Knight with a deep and abiding love, so looking forward to that read-through!
Liegh,
Thanks for the fun writing.
I strongly suggest that when you do get to reading AFFC, that you follow a (roughly) cronological read of both AFFC & ADWD per http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a (page is spoiler free).
Great to see your reaction to the end! There’s just so much crazy shit going down at the end of this book.
I really look forward to hearing about The Hedge Knight from you as well! That’s a good reading order you’ve got set up, IMO.
As for the fourth novella, it’s not in the same “series” of stories as The Hedge Knight, but is rather about an even earlier event. There is another “Dunk and Egg” novella in the same series of stories as the Hedge Knight planned, but it’s not out yet.
Well, we were never told that Beric had to be recently dead to be raised, that was just for PR purposes I suppose.
Thanks Leigh, it’s been a long slog. Do you go back and reread the novel at a normal pace after? I think you maybe should, because as you noted, this is a great book. It might be my second favourite book after The Silmarillion but The Shadow Rising was pretty fantastic as well.
See you in the Wheel of Time Reread.
I was rather disappointed in the outcome of chapter 80. I was so hoping that Sansa would take the long fall. She deserves it. A stupider, stupider, stupider girl has never been born. She’s spent the first 3 books being stupid, doing stupid, then returning to being stupid all over again.
Lysa, at least, has some chemical/crazy reasons for being insane. Sansa is just terminally stupid.
Why can’t Martin just kill her off now?
As for any feminist rationalizations of Lysa’s character, I would just note that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes a crazy lady is just a crazy lady and not a commentary on women.
The epilogue is ruined for me. Every time I read it, I mentally hear H. Jon Benjamin’s voice going, “Rampaaaaaage! Wooo!”
Shoot, sorry to write another comment so soon, but I don’t know how to edit (or if I can).
@@@@@#5 BrookieBoy–
I’d actually really recommend reading AFFC and ADWD as written for a first pass, despite greatly enjoying the chronological readthrough I did a few months back.
I think people’s impressions of the pacing are greatly fuzzed by the multi-year waits, but AFFC is a really good piece of falling (and slowly recovering) action, and it emphasizes different kinds of themes than ADWD does on the slow build back up. AFFC hangs together surprisingly well thematically, and while I think some plot insights are gained by doing the chronological read, a lot of the emotional punch is lost. Both for the differences in theme and tone in a couple PoVs in particular, I’d really read them as they were written the first time through.
Loved your reactions, Leigh– I really enjoyed this post. While as others have pointed out that this is the first time the books tell you who murdered Jon Arryn, you actually guessed at it a long time ago. From Part 20 of the AGoT Read:
“Back to the plot(ting), we also have here Maester Colemon’s extremely intriguing information here that Arryn planned to send young Robert off to be fostered with Stannis (who I believe is at Dragonstone, right?) even before King Robert decided to send the boy to the Lannisters after Arryn’s death. That, my friends, is very, very interesting.
Because, you know, it occurs to me that while I totally understood (and agreed with) Lysa’s vehement rejection of the idea of sending her son to be fostered with the Lannisters, because yeek, after actually meeting her I think it’s safe to say that fostering young Robert at all is something Lysa would have been violently against, no matter who the kid would have been going to.
Violently against enough, perhaps, to murder her own husband?
…I dunno. I might be wildly overthinking this, and it is admittedly a fairly horrific notion. But, you guys. Lysa? Is not right in the head. Especially when it comes to her ickle widdle wovey-dovey baby schnookums, there. I’m just saying.”
So congrats for that!
In true GRRM fashion, he makes me feel sympathy for a previously hated character right before killing them. When you realize that Littlefinger had been manipulating Lysa and probably deliberately trying to make her go insane since she was still a child, it’s hard not to feel sorry for her.
Remember the Arya chapter when her and Clegane were fleeing the Twins and she had her warg dream? She fished Cat’s body from the Trident but was forced to flee when riders approached. I’m pretty sure that those riders were the Brotherhood Without Banners. It was several days after the Red Wedding but the Lord of Light apparently has long arms…
Re Dunk and Egg, etc. Only three stories so far. GRRM’s has been working on the fourth one (D and E go to Winterfell!!) but not done yet. Maybe by the time we get to it. There is also a different novella coming out in a month or so about the original Dance of the Dragons – the war between the eldest Targ daugher and the eldest son of the King’s second wife. We’ll probably want to read that before ADWD irrespective of the status of the fourth D and E.
Re The Hedge Knight, we’ll have to figure out how to split it up for AROIF purposes. It happens over the course of several days so you can keep going until you hit what seems to be a ballpark stopping point and then let Dunk go to sleep for the night. Really looking forward to the read, Leigh. THK is one of my favorite stories of all time. The other two are excellent as well but the first one is great.
I see this viewpoint, that Sansa is stupid or a waste of space, often. And yet… in the game of thrones you win or you die, and Sansa’s not dead. And also (as far as anyone knows) sole surviving heir to the North. And technically married to the Lannister heir, and yet safe from the Lannisters. And yes, she has Littlefinger to deal with now, but in a world where survival can’t be taken for granted, Sansa’s done quite well with the cripplingly poor hand she’s been dealt.
And THAT is how you end a book! My god, the last few chapters of ASOS are breathtaking (from all the gutpunches).
Sansa’s chapter builds up such tension, with Sansa almost being pushed out the moon door (even losing her shoe), then Lysa’s insane babbling reveal about the murder and lie to Cat sparking the whole war. The Winterfell construction scene was heartbreaking, reinforcing Sansa’s loneliness since she saw her father killed.
LF revealed as the instigator to Jon Arryn’s death, Ned Stark’s death, Stannis’ defeat, and Joffrey’s death shows just how far he is willing to go to achieve his own ends. The man will literally see the world burn if he can gain from it. You do have to feel a little bad for Lysa, who was not only deluded but also clearly manipulated into most of her worst actions by Littlefinger. But I find it hard to be TOO forgiving to a woman who willingly murdered her own husband and started a fight between her sister’s family and the most powerful family in the 7 Kingdoms.
The epilogue is simply stunning. We get inside the head of a character who actually seems somewhat pitiable, one of the hated Freys, but a weak one who has had a tough life so far. Then the rug gets pulled out under our feet at the BIG reveal at the end.
Yes, Cat part deux (or UnCat as she’s known) is a result of The Lord of Light’s followers, just as Thoros was able to bring back Beric 6 times. But Cat was dead for over a day before she was dumped naked into the river, and it had to be a number of days before she drifted to where she was pulled out (we saw it happen in an Arya dream through Nymeria’s eyes- remember Nymeria seeing men on horseback approaching before Arya awoke?- The natural conclusion to be drawn is that it was Beric and his Merry Men who found her). So Cat not only died, but was dead and decomposing for maybe a week before she was revived, and her physical state clearly reflects it. You once alluded to “Death Becomes Her”- and Cat’s current state is just like that movie, but she doesn’t have a top surgeon to help her with her appearance.
So now we know who those riders were that drove off Nymeria when she found Catlyns corpse one of Arya’s ealier chapters.So in the time it took me to right my post, a few other people beat me to the punch.Glad to see Leigh was as flabbergasted as the rest of us at the revelation of UnCat as she is called on the forums.
@5 that’s a good idea. AFFC has only half of the POV’s and not the really interesting ones, save for one character’s POV, at least in my opinion. Plus, after I read DWD, I saw the narrative comparason Martin drew between three of the characters arcs, of which only one is present in AFFC, and I think it would make a better read. Plus, it was originaly supposed to be one book.
Spoiler on the Arcs: Martin compares the three differnt leadership styles of Jon Snow, Danny, and Cersei and the consequences of their very differnt leadership decisions. It makes Cersei’s inclusion as a POV a little more palpable in my opionio.
Can’t wait for Leigh to read the Hedge Knight. I abosolutey loved it.
I really liked your thought’s on Lysa here. Most people overlook most of this for shock over Petyr the evil mastermind.
As another ASOIAF first time reader put it after the epilogue: OMG, it’s Zombie Catelyn Stark, ZOMBIE CATEYLN STARK! D: D: D: Or Uncat as she is called in fandom. How you like them apples?
@8
Really? She’s a kid. She was 11 when this started, she’s what, 13, now? She’s been through hell. It’s amazing she’s not just a blubbering basketcase, really. She’s be a far less realistic character if she were pragmatic and sensible and learned from her every mistake. Other child and *adult* characters make a number of interpersonal, political, and tactical errors with ridiculously far-reaching consequences, and yet so many people love to gang up on this one clueless child than on people who should realistically know better or on antagonists who are the outright conniving, murdering shitheads who put her in her situation in the first place.
I’m looking forward to the TV series covering that bit of the epilogue. I’m assuming it’ll be an end of the episode reveal, and my flatmates are going to freak out (as will the internet). Watching them, watching the Red Wedding was great entertainment in and of it’s self :)
Is there an ebook way of getting hold of the novellas? I’ve not read them yet.
I closed the book and said “Wow” at about 2 am. It took a while to digest the clusterbomb of reveals dropped at the end.
I felt exactly as much sympathy for Lysa as she did for her husband, brother-in-law, sister, and nephew she got killed – none.
I have not read the novellas or short stories; I may want to look into getting those!
The mystery of “Tansy” and Jon Arryn’s death blabbered by Lysa here wraps up a lot of the Tully-Arryn side of things Catelyn didn’t know/only hinted at.
I do think that Lysa seems to be an example of how the internalization of traditional women’s roles in Westeros can go horribly wrong, while Catelyn–for all her own faults–was an example of how they could be right. Cersei won’t internalize her gender role, but she also fights it in all the wrong ways, while Brienne simply rejects many of the accepted feminine traits and forges her own road. Dany uses her femininity as a strength as she grows into her role as Queen and Conquerer, seen as “Mother” by her dragons and those who follow her. Arya and Sansa are still forming their identities, but are being shaped by their circumstances in pretty specific ways. Wildling women’s culture and expectations are radically different from that of Westeros; most are expected to be just as competent as their men in terms of combat, while still being traditionally feminine (with Craster’s victimized daughter-wives as a horrible exception to the other Free Folk we see). The variety of women, their roles, and their personalities in the series makes me agree that Lysa’s portrayal was very intentional.
I also think Lysa could have been, and maybe should have been, beautiful the way Catelyn was seen to be, but her own failings affected her physical appearance as much as her interior; it’s another trope, and one of the few I think Martin uses overall, since Lysa is a common-trope-heavy character.
It was already decided a long time ago that there would be no mixed reading of AFFC/ADWD. AFFC haters can stuff it. If not for the insanity that’s ASOS it would be my absolute favorite book of the series.
Be she wolf or falcon, lion or dragon, Hell hath no fury like a mother’s grief. That could be a sub-theme of this book.
@leigh: Thank you for the great commentary on Lysa’s character and arc, which generally get too little attention. Her death was a mercy killing, a case of spousal homicide given and received, and a means to save Sansa, but I feel only pity for her condition. Grief for dead children, fear for a living one, unrequited desire for one man, and a lonely life of being overlooked could unhinge anyone, though she may have had insanity genes as well.
@19 phuzz
Legends I and II and Warriors all have kindle editions, but I don’t think you can get the individual stories by themselves unless you get the graphic novel versions. Word is when the fourth Dunk and Egg story (not the one in dangerous women, which is about The Dance of the Dragons, not D&E) comes out, they will all be published together. However, all three anthologies do have some good stories in them, so it’s not a waste to get the anothologies.
Ok, now go back to the Arya chapter in this book with the ancient dwarf lady and see how many of her prophecies you can figure out.
FFC is like S2 of The Wire – in retrospect, it’s actually excellent and covers a lot of ground which is absolutely essential to understanding the larger story, but it’s also such a deviation from expectations that it initially seems worse than it is. There are somethings which I still dislike, such as //all of the Greyjoy chapters//, but overall I preferred it to
SOSCOK.I stand by my opinion that DWD was a mess – brilliant in parts, but still a mess.
I am not as fond of ASOS as most other readers of the series, but the last chapter and the epilogue are fantastic, no doubt, and on first read really something else. The heartbreaking snow castle building, the shock of the revelation that LF was behind so much, then Catelyn’s “return”….
Merrett’s developed very nicely for a character who has a handful of paes here and two or three mentions in total before that. You almost feel sorry for the poor loser…
I really enjoyed your reactions Leigh, and of course the reread in general.
I tend to agree with @8 though, that sometimes a crazy person is just a crazy person. I do tend to get tired of people constantly analyzing every little nuance and putting words in author’s mouths. But if we must, we must.
As far as Lysa goes, no I didn’t like her but I understood her character, and I believe that is what’s important. And even before this chapter, you know she’s not right in the head. Go back to the chapter where Catelyn listens to her dying father’s ramblings about Tansy and you’ll see there was plenty of evidence (Yes I managed to put together than Lysa = Tansy shortly after that chapter).
Also, I think the fact that Lysa is just about every negative female stereotype rolled up into one is actually quite brilliant, and definitely not intended to be sexist per se.
Basically, Lysa is GRRM deconstructing (obviously something he’s brilliant at) a different version of Sansa. A young girl who dreams of being with the man she loves and would do anything for him. In most fantasy, love is a many splendid thing, so pure and noble. How can that be bad? But here GRRM deconstructs it to show how in this crapsack world how loving the wrong man can drive you insane. And since Lysa started off with aspirations of love and motherhood (not something out-of-character for a woman in a feudal society, and therefore isn’t really sexist in its portryal, at least not to me), GRRM is now showcasing how she has twisted these originally innocent things into something repulsive. Her over-coddling of her child, her intense jealousy of anyone Petyr shows interest in, and of course, murdering her own husband.
It goes deeper than that, of course. Basically I think it’s just another example of GRRM’s wonderful manipulation of the genre.
As far as the boiledleather reading order goes, I’m not sure how well it would work for a first time reader going at a pace of one or two chapters a week, considering how many divergent PoV storylines there are. In this specific and unusual case, reading in publication order is probably best.
@5: Terrible, terrible, *terrible* idea for a first read through. It’s neat for a second read-through but the books were written to be read seperately and are plotted with that in mind.
I read The Hedge Knight in Dreamsongs: Volume II which I happened across in the library. I really didn’t take it seriously – just some background info on some of the characters.
BrookieBoy@5,
I can understand your wanting Leigh to read AFFC and ADOD concurrently in chronological order, but the author specifically recommended not doing that. They weren’t written with that in mind. It would be better if it were written as on large book, but it wasn’t and shoehorning it into one can be problematic.
Ah, Littlefinger is a badass & is GRRM’s Walter White. Petyr has positioned himself to be Lord of the Eyrie and one of the most powerful persons in Westeros. He needs to die in a horrible manner. Sansa is one of GRRM best story arc because you start with the dreamer whose worldview is childlike and is rudely disillusioned. She goes from suicidal to hope to dashed hopes to pawn. Bk 7 will have a very controversial Sansa chapter.
One little follow up nuggest. In addition to THK, Legends I also include that little novella of POSSIBLE interest to our Leigh… called A New Spring. Veddy interestingggg.
“I was rather disappointed in the outcome of chapter 80. I was so hoping
that Sansa would take the long fall. She deserves it. A stupider,
stupider, stupider girl has never been born. She’s spent the first 3
books being stupid, doing stupid, then returning to being stupid all
over again.”
Not everyone is wise, clever, quick-thinking, intelligent, or astute/clueful. Similarly, not everyone is physically strong, fast, possessing stamina, dextrous, coordinated, or robust. The duty of the strong is to protect the weak and help them grow strong; and so the duty of the intelligent is to protect the foolish and help them grow wise.
Is intelligence a virtue, something to be desired and admired? Yes. Is stupidity a flaw; yes. Same with the physical aspects.
But, really, what do you expect of a thirteen-year old. Teenagers are stupid.
Sansa isn’t stupid at all. Naive, yes (though she improves an awful lot in this respect over the course of the series), but certainly not stupid.
@34 – I found Sansa’s stupidity more believable than the other brilliant action-oriented teenagers in the series.
@18 I support you! At this point I make a prediction: When the surviving Stark kids (+Snow) team up for ASOIF final battle you will have:
John – Warrior
Arya – Rogue/Assassin
Bran – Wizard (with Hodor as the magically enhanced Tank of course)
Rickon – ???? (He better start training on something)
All of them with their direwolfs at their sides.
Sansa is, sadly, direwolfless and is the less likely Stark brat to start learning any class of martial or military discipline. But I always imagine her as the master plotter/trickster behind an equally damaging blow to the enemy.
35. Bergmaniac
Nope she’s stupid. Naivete implies she hasn’t had the opportunity to learn, she has and failed to due to her intellectual deficits.
Wrong. She has learned plenty. And Martin pretty much spells it out that she’s quite intelligent in AGOT – she’s better at all subjects except math than Arya, she writes and reads better than her brothers (some of whom are 3 years older), has already learned to play 2 musical instruments at age 11, etc. And her PoV isn’t of someone lacking intelligence.
I love your plans, Leigh, but I also vote for a combined reading of AFFC & ADwD. The experience is much more satisfying that reading aFfC first and aDwD second!
@38
Get real. She’s 13. As #40 notes she reads and writes better than some older brothers and plays the bells and high harp. She’s memorized ettiquite and courteseys aplenty and keeps her grip on delicate social situtations even when she’s been forced to marry Tyrion–he remarks at how good at it she is. Whatever skills she’s been expected to learn, she’s mastered. Right now, she’s struggling to learn to play a game she was never taught even existed, from people who have been playing it longer than she’s been alive, while simultanesouly grief- and terror-stricken.
She’s in a terrible situation, surrounded by predators, mourning the loss of everyone she’s ever loved. And by the way, at age 13, the strength of connections between different parts of the brain has made it on average less than halfway to where it’ll peak later in life, and it’s more severe when it comes to the parts of the brain which tend to govern judgement and control. It’s not an intellectual deficit for a mourning thirteen year old not to learn a complicated and adult lesson right away; it’s simply realistic.
39. Bergmaniac: Her POV seems lacking in intelligence to me. I’m not particularly impressed with the intelligence of Sansa’s brothers either. When she can beat Mycella at Cyvasse or reads better than Tyrion or can figure out how to evade the lannisters like Arya. Then I won’t think she’s stupid.
41. Cass314: The problem is you can say all those things about Arya too.
Meanwhile she‘s (roll over to read) still doing stupid shit like dressing up in Lysa’s clothes to meet the lords declarant. This is in the 4th book. And this a lesson in etiquette and sigils and symbolism, the type of thing Sansa is supposed to understand. She’s just not smart. That’s the problem. (End)
You might also want to have a look at the ingredients Lysa names for Moon Tea, one of them might make you remember something in one of the earlier chapters…
Classic reactions to both sections of this read, Leigh- thanks! Much fun to read, as always.
I finished ADwD a couple of weeks ago. I’d like to start the D&E read with Leigh, but don’t think I really want to get the anthology. Has anyone compared the graphic novel with the novella? Would it work with this read?
Three cheers for the last piece of narrative mastery GRRM has published in the main sequence of ASoIaF.
In a sense, the way ASoS crackles in vibe, pitch & intensity (sometimes nihilistically so), created a sense of expectation Martin has not been able to match, or even come close to, since.
I agree to a point with some earlier comments about how AFFC grows on you, despite certain squiddy interludes, (especially because of those squiddy interludes IMO), and if you look at it somewhat objectively, those of us who read it at time of publication, would have been reading through a gauzy (red-mist) filter of years of real world prospective publication shenanigans – I know I certainly was!
Even so, despite making such allowances, the reality is AFFC & ADWD are essentially one novel whose arcs are poorly contrived, manufactured rather than crafted & filled with overindulgent gasbagging and more blubber than a Greyjoy would know what to do with.
For mine, it represents an Artist who would have felt he’d reached the acme of his craft with respect to THIS particular created world, getting comprehensively lost when Plan A for the second-half of ASoIaF didn’t come together for him.
After the ‘virtual’ smooth narrative flow of the main story so far, and with one more piece of what IMO, in The Hedge Knight, is the last crackling example of GRRM’s peak performance (that story is packed with SO MUCH, I often forget it’s part of a Short Story collection), I will be very interested to read Leigh Butler’s take once she returns to what becomes a main sequence meander.
grl
I’m surprised no one has mentioned that the “Dwarf Woman’s” prohepecies have been culminated in this book!
“I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burse, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.”
“I am stronger within the walls of WInterfell.” This is the point at which I fell hopelessly in love with the character of Sansa Stark. In fact, this is one of my two favorite sentences in the series. The other is a two word sentence frm ADwD. Hint: It starts with an L and ends in a d…
What makes it even more poignant is that Sansa was the one who was so eager to leave Winterfell, when she was last there, and now it’s the only place she wants to be.
Something that slipped past me the first time that I read the epilogue: UnCat, via her band of merry BwBers, is aware that Arya is still alive and is searching for her. She’s not just motivated by Death to All Freys.
Speaking of which, I look forward to Brienne finding Sansa, training her up in the martial arts, and both of them laying waste to Lannisters and Freys everywhere. Maybe that’d satisfy the Sansa haters.
Like so many readers, I have been awaiting this particular post most anxiously. Leigh, you do not disappoint. Your astute insights stoke discussion among our diverse viewpoints. And your reactions are hysterical – and I mean that in the more contemporary meaning of the word rather than its Greek origin. Many thanks.
Thank you Leigh!
Both for your amazing reactions to the end, which have been anticipating since your happy dance after Joffery’s death.
@37: Sansa could be the trope Cleric. To round out your D&D group. She’ll keep the faith, and become a true believer of the Old Gods.
Who knows.
Others have covered the other stuff I was going to say.
The first time I read through the series, I disliked Sansa’s chapters much like some other commenters here, until sometime in the later books I started liking her. Now, on the second read, I like her even in the chapters where first I disliked her, because I no longer see her as stupid or boring, knowing it’s building up to the Sansa she becomes later. It’s the same story with Catelyn’s chapters, really.
As for the short stories and the anthologies, The Hedge Knight is available in Dreamsongs II, and I – STRONGLY – recommend anyone curious to get both Dreamsongs I and II (they are collections of GRRM’s short fiction), because besides THK, they are both filled with brilliant, brilliant stories. (In The Lost Lands is pure GRRM brilliance)
I think I’ve been following all your re-reads for years now, and your reaction to Catelyn here was by far the most entertaining revelation (that I can remember right now). Really excellent job capturing the psychological stress this book places on the reader.
@21 I think I pretty much agree with you on Lysa. I don’t want to be some armchair psychologist but she’s clearly mentally ill and ultimately a tragic character, I find Littlefinger much more despicable, even if I have some grudging respect for him. Lysa seems to me to be basically an example of internalised oppression – the fact that a noble women’s role in Westeros society is to marry a noble lord generally not of her choosing and bear him heirs, and Lysa’s inability to fulfill that role drives her crazy. Think about her life – she is forced to have an abortion of Petyr’s child (I’m pretty sure that was what the Tansy reference was), is then considered ‘soiled’ and married to Jon Arryn who is much older than her. She then suffers multiple miscarriages and finally has a sickly child, and it’s no wonder she is overly protective. Basically, not all suffering is ennobling – instead of having empathy for Sansa’s situation as a woman she completely buys into the misogyny of her culture in her interactions with her, and this is never more evident than in her essentially calling Sansa a slut and a temptress even though it is Petyr who is the one who is at fault, and the fact that she is completely blinded by her jealousy of Catelyn and by proxy Sansa. I’m also pretty sure Lysa was considered quite attractive when she was younger, but her looks faded as she got older (and more psycho crazy). Littlefinger very clearly and coldly manipulated her, and is pretty much a freaking sociopath – and like you I want to take a shower every time he talks to Sansa because he is a large part of the reason that her father is dead and she is even in this situation and in my revenge fantasy Sansa pushes him out the moondoor. The Sansa snow castle scene (before Pedo Littlefinger shows up and ruins it) is one of my favourite scenes in the whole series, and I fervently hope that in the end Sansa gets to go home and help rebuild Winterfell for real *sobs*
@42: Not sure if we should be discussing book four events in the non-spoiler thread, but there is another event in book four that might be worth noting that I’ll put in the spoiler thread.
Leigh – your commentary on these two chapters were amazing, especially your complete WTF on the Catelyn reveal (and the funny in retrospect line about Catelyn getting killed in her own POV). I completely agree with you that when I first read the Sansa chapter I was legitimately freaked out that Sansa was going to die (and that would have been a bridge too far for me) – and the fact that I am legimately scared about that definitely ups the tension compared to other books. Your commentary about Lysa was also really interesting, and I ultimately agree with you that GRRM manages to for the most part depict women as people rather than as stereotypes. Lysa’s despicable, but she’s also a victim of her partiarchal culture and really tragic, but I’m not going to lie and say I didn’t cheer and think it was kind of badass when Petyr chucked her out the moon door, despite how much I hate him (I think ‘Only Cat’ is literally one of the most bone chilling things ever said in these books). I am definitely not of the fan of UnCat – I really liked Catelyn as a character, and while I was upset at her death I didn’t want her to come back like THIS a revenge driven zombie, but damn if I wasn’t happy at that little shit Frey getting hanged, now go kill Walder for me please (and if Tywin wasn’t already dead I would not be against her killing him). It’s kind of a nice revenge fantasy for people traumatised by the Red Wedding at the end of the book and possible foreshadowing of Stark’s making a comeback (I think the Sansa snowcastle scene foreshadows this too), but CATELYN, man, this makes me so sad I wish GRRM had just let her be dead and be with Ned :(
I think it’s interesting that people who call Sansa stupid often reference Arya. I feel like Arya is a much more commonly seen fantasy child, and fairly unrealistic, though entertaining anyway, and certainly with some very real ‘moments’. I feel like Sansa, and Robb too, are kind of clearer deconstructions of the real pitfalls of putting kids that age in typical ‘fantasy’ situations, and maybe they come off as worse in comparison to the typical fantasy archetype when they wouldn’t in the real world. I’m sure most of us would like to think we’d react like the more action-oriented characters than the passive ones, that who knows.
Also, I *adore* the slowly revealed ‘love triangle’ of Lysa/Petyr/Catelyn, which we really only get hints of throughout the books and when we put it all together is something that is a real flip on a ‘typical’ fantasy situation. Petyr ‘loved’ Cat, who was betrothed to someone else, so he challenged the betrothed to a duel–and promptly got his ass handed to him *and* the girl never wanted him anyway! And even if had beaten Brandon in the duel, it still wouldn’t have resulted in him getting to marry Cat.
Leigh, I have to say your reaction to Cat being alive (sorta) was PRICELESS! ROTF, LOL PRICELESS! As for Lysa… well, I got the impression she was a few spoonfuls shy of a full bowl of (insert your favorite cereal here) even when she was young. And letting Litterfinger talk her into killing Jon Arryn just because she coudn’t stand the thought of (“Precious, o my Preciousss…) little Robert being fostered out… well… yeah. She’s not so much a stereotype as she is just crazy (helped along here by a few glasses of wine, sounds like).
And then there’s Sansa. *sigh
I have (regretfully) come to the conclusion that she is not so much stupid as she is mind-numbingly naive. Being 12 or 13 doesn’t help here; if she can survive Littlefinger’s plans for her (and she seems to be learning lession #1 – keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open), she might end up coming out way ahead of the rest of the Starks. I’m gonna raise the ick factor here by suggesting that she needs to learn how to manipulate opportunites from a master to survive and Littlefinger is second to none. I personally think that sex with him (if she gets that far) is a lot less likely to get her killed than her massive
naiveté. Of course, GRRM could just kill her off at some point in some unexpected fashion….
Merrett Frey – well, this is obvious; he’s a adult Frey and he was at the Red Wedding. He’s doomed. No one in their right mind would ever trust a Frey again. Rightfully so. Yeah, that was very judgemental but it’s true. It’s like finding a brown recluse in a house and you have kids and pets nearby; kill that one and spray for the rest later to be sure. I totally agree with UnCat on this one.
I don’t care about Dunk & Egg; I just want GRRM to finish the damn main sequence in his lifetime (let alone mine), thank you.
57. Maddy1990:
“Only cat” is definitely one of the funniest things said in this series.
Also, don’t hate the player hate the game.
Chapter 80 – Sansa: So, I think this is the last chapter and then the Epilogue from what people have said. Also, people seem to be bouncing up and down with excitement and anticipation. So here I go.
She likes the young singer. As does her aunt. That could be a problem as Lysa seems a tad unstable. GRRM may need to walk through more snow as there is usually some sound as you walk. The sound depends on the temperature. Crunchy or squeaky, swishing or faint patters as your toes kick up little puffs. The snow is heavy and wet, so it is going to be noisier than if it was dry and light, not quite melting.
“May I come into your castle, my lady?” Heh, innuendo much? He says while not liking Littlefinger one bit right here.And then a bit of building and of course Littlefinger tries to molest her. So, that’s out in the open.
Little Lord Robert also continues to be somewhat of a childish child. And it would appear an epileptic. Thinning the blood is probably not the greatest idea.
OK, Lysa is completely off her rocker and Littlefinger had gotten her pregnant. That seems to have contributed to her madness.
Well! Oh my, I guess we don’t have to worry about Lysa any more.
That … well that raises all sorts of possibilities. And Sansa isn’t in a good place in any of them. The Eyrie lords aren’t happy with Littlefinger and so things could go south or he could pretty much take over.
Lysa was basically driven crazy by Littlefinger and now killed.
Psssh, I love AFFC. Lots of new faces, places, plots, and POVs. I have no idea what you’ll make of it, Leigh, but look forward to finding out. After an interesting side trip, of course.
Epilogue: I don’t recall who Merrett is and which Petyr is he ransoming here? Is this in the future and it is Littlefinger or some other? Slightly confused.
OK, no were down by the river and Merrett is a Frey of one sort or another and so is Petyr. A little more background on the whole betrayal/wedding.
Uhm, OK again. So, Cat is alive (sort of) and killing Freys. A water zombie maybe like Beric is a fire undead of some sort? Or did Thoros somehow raise her up or are more zombies just rising up spontaneously as magic rises? Interesting! That’s quite the way to end!I’ll have some recap later, but I need to think on that a bit.
@42
The same things can’t be said about Arya, though. Arya was a tomboy through and through from the start. She had different interests, rejecting everything Sansa chose to learn and focus on (with the exception of math), skills that arguably would have been more useful had things not gone to hell in a handbasket in the specific way that they did. She grew up dressing up like a boy and hitting things with sticks, which in large part are the skills she used on her journey so far (albeit with a huge helping of guts, also). She has certainly been called upon to face monumentally more mature situations than she was prepared for, but they were far more in-kind with her training than Sansa’s situation.
Arya has gotten by so far on being tough, pretending to be a boy, and performing physical tasks–saving the men in the wagon, shanking people, performing hard labor, and running like a rabbit. These are things she’s always been good at, things she practiced, things she was trained for by Syrio. Moreover, Arya has had the opportunity to physically take command of her circumstances in a way that Sansa, known and guarded and now on a mountaintop, has not.
Sansa, however, was raised to be pretty, courteous, and accomodating. She was raised by honest parents who never taught her not to trust, and since she never got in any trouble like Arya, she never really learned even the rudiments of deception. Playing the game of thrones is the exact opposite of what she was raised for.
And unlike Sansa, Arya has largely not been asked to play the game of thrones anyway–and you could argue that the two times she had the opportunity to do so, she screwed up royally (but in a totally understandable fashion for someone in her position). First, instead of keeping her cool and restating her case when Sansa didn’t support her at the Trident, she completely supported Joffrey’s side of the story by losing her shit and resorting to physical assault. Second, she rejected a longer-term assassination of Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, or even Gregor Clegane, who was right there with her, and instead went for immediate satistfaction in naming people like Chiswyk.
Arya and Sansa have different skill sets, were asked to apply them to vastly different situations, and if anything, Arya has been in a position to apply the specific skills she was trained for more than Sansa has. Arya was trained to fight and run and pretend to be a boy–skills that have served her well, if not completely. Sansa was trained to be courteous and trusting and kind, and that others are deserving of such treatment, which is the exact oppostite of what would have served her well with Cersei and Petyr.
“Only Cat” is one of the most cruel, sadistic things in the series.
Its so cruel that it makes you feel pitty for Lysa.
47. Gregor Lewis
Nicely written my man, nicelly written.
And so very true.
It would be nice to believe GRRM can come back to it… at least for the Winds of Winter, but i just cant see it anymore. The garden has been turned over to a company which is rolling over it with bulldozers and cement.
For all who are interested in George short stories i would recommend getting “Nightflyers” somewhere.
Still one of my favorites of all time.
64. Cass314:
“She’s in a terrible situation, surrounded by predators, mourning the loss of everyone she’s ever loved. And by the way, at age 13, the strength of connections between different parts of the brain has made it on average less than halfway to where it’ll peak later in life, and it’s more severe when it comes to the parts of the brain which tend to govern judgement and control.”
All of that is true of Arya as well except Arya is 10.
No. I’m referring to Arya’s ability to escape and evade. She has the common sense to pretend not to be afraid and walk calmly to escape the red keep. And again, with Roose Bolton Arya is able to steal a map and escape. Sansa doesn’t have the sense god gave a chicken.
Thank you Leigh, for all your dedication and hard work. I just wanted to tell someone I’m still laughing my ass off over the South Park + Black Friday + ASOFAI/Game of Thrones mash-up. I hope you get to see them. They’re wet your pants funny! Have a nice turkey day, and I’ll do my best to find the short stories you’ll be reviewing next. I love your work! You never fail to brighten my week (excluding those weeks when you take a break and don’t post.)
@64 EXACTLY, Arya and Sansa were not raised in the same way, and I think that’s important to recognise. I get really sick of people pitting Arya and Sansa against each other since I love them both and I don’t think one of them is ‘better’ than the other, they’re both on the same team guys! In general this whole pitting female characters against each other annoys me – they are using the resources at their disposal to stay alive as best they can – some people are more stereotypically ‘feminine’ like Sansa and Catelyn, and some try to break out of the mould like Arya and Brienne, and all of their responses and personalities are valid and complex and human. Lots of people say Sansa couldn’t have survived in Arya’s situation, but I think that’s equally true about Arya put into Sansa’s situation. Sansa displays a hell of a lot of emotional intelligence and resilience and bravery, and is the Stark I have the most hope for in directly getting the Starks back into political power. All of the Stark kids have an important but different role to play in the story and provide an important viewpoint into different parts of Westeros society – Sansa into court intrigue and politics, Arya into the plight of the common folk and Bran into the more supernatural and magical elements. While I want Littlefinger as far away from Sansa as possible for obvious reasons, I also think it’s an opportunity for growth and to learn how to play the game from the ultimate player, while hopefully not turning into him and maintaining her innate empathy
You sure they’re on the same team?
It wasn’t the first time he had talked of killing the Mountain. “But he’s your brother,” Arya said dubiously.
“Didn’t you ever have a brother you wanted to kill?” He laughed again. “Or maybe a sister?” He must have seen something in her face then, for he leaned closer. “Sansa. That’s it, isn’t it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird.”
(And yes, Arya is better. Then Jon, Then Bran, Then Rickon, Then Robb, Then Theon and Then Sansa, Sansa is the worst)
Re: Sansa: I really really hope Sansa can find a way to turn her situation to her advantage. Up to now, she has been a puppet for everyone and worse, she doesn’t even realize it.
The only positive I can see is that Littlefinger (as …icky as he is), is one sneaky manipulating SOB, but understands the Game of Thrones. If Sansa wants to learn The Game, she has a Master of it for a teacher (if she can get him to teach her without the …ulterior motives).
I really want Sansa to end up being the savviest Game player ever and pull an “Edmond Dantes” back on all the people who played her for a puppet.
But I really REALLY do hope her arc goes in a more “yay for Sansa” line. It has really been pulling nails for her. I don’t think I’ve ever looked forward to reading a chapter from her POV.
I always remember a comment by a poster called Kim on that most excellent “Blog of Ice and Fire” which stopped abruptly in CoK:
“Congratulations, you have officially reached Stage 3 of Sansa-itis. Stage 1 was Annoyance, Stage 2 is not experienced by all, is often brief when it is, and is Pity. Stage 3 is Total Indifference. Would you believe me if I tell you Stage 4 is Interest, and Stage 5 is Absolute Fascination?”
I didn’t believe it at the time but it was sort of right. I would put it like this at the end of SoS:
1. Boredom
2. Disgust
3. Slight Pity
4. Slight Interest
5. Fascination
Right now I think that Sansa will end up being a very adept player in the Games of Thrones…if she survives long enough.
She is not unintelligent – just incredibly self-centred and yes naive. She will have to grow up in a hurry and use that mind in ways that would have been completely alien to her when she left Winterfell
Arya is only “better” than Sansa if you don’t value Sansa’s more traditionally feminine skill set. I am a huge Arya fan–she’s incredibly brave, tough, and whip-smart, absolutely–but this insistence that she is just “better” shows a distinct sexist disdain for softer, yet necessary skills. Arya and Sansa may share broadly the same circumstances on paper (“surrounded by predators,” etc.), but the actualities vastly differ, and thus so do their options. The fact that Sansa’s circumstances do not allow her to respond the way that Arya would does not make Sansa stupid.
Everyone knows who Sansa is, and she’s constantly spied on, so she doesn’t have the option of pretending to be a boy, of pretending to be a commoner worth no particular notice, of stealing food and daggers and horses to escape, and she certainly doesn’t have a very clever and extremely highly trained assassin who owes her a blood debt on her side.
Sansa has to smile, and please, and be brave as hell, while living directly under the thumb of a sociopath who had her father killed and can have her beaten bloody by grown men whenever he fucking feels like it, while married to a dwarf member of that same sociopath’s family, with a drunken ex-knight as her only known ally, and, later, while living with a pedophile, and a mercurial, mentally ill aunt who could have her banished or shoved out the moon door the first time she puts a foot wrong by “mistreating” her spoiled son or “telling lies” about her rapist singer.
And yet, she’s still alive. If she were stupid–like, say, by trying to be Arya under any of those circumstances–she’d have been dead a long time ago. How long would Arya have lasted, living in the Red Keep with King Joffrey?
Also, you want to call Sansa stupid for putting on the wrong dress to meet the Lords Declarant? How about Arya’s biggest mistake: wasting her first two deaths from Jaqen on Weese and Chiswyck, instead of Ser Gregor, or Lord Tywin, or King Joffrey? She could have at least dealt her enemies a couple of serious blows, and instead she wasted them on nobodies just because she was mad at them. (Again, I love Arya, but GIRL, COME ON.)
72. GoldJerry:
Arya not using Jaquen to greater effect was stupid. (though to be fair she only wasted one death. the first death was a test, which is smart. Weese was wasted. Then she helps the Northerners take Harenhall which is at least significant, as see simply killing Joffrey or Tywin isn’t enough. Shit killing Joffrey, Tywin and Cersei would have put Tyrion in charge)
Anyway, Arya has no training in the proper usage of assassins. Sansa’s wheel house is supposed to be using social decorum to political advantage, ie: courtesies. This is the last bastion of team Sansa, that is supposed to be where her great intelligence in manifest. And yet…. she acts like an idiot here too.
Arya escaped the Red Keep because she had a super badass sacrificing himself for her to get away.
But yeah, let’s pretend it’s some great show of intelligence and not pure luck/plot armor.
Leigh,
Been reading your blog since the beggining, first time post, great job.
I believe you should consider The Boiled Leather reading order, the explanation part on the post makes a strong case for this order (spoiler free)
I would say the big difference between the two Stark sisters (and why I much prefer reading Arya chapters to Sansa chapters) is that Arya deals with her environment proactively, while Sansa is passive. She’s waiting for some big hero to show up and rescue her, instead of working on it herself.
GoldJerry@72: Sansa had someone almost as useful at hand as well, the Hound, but she declined to use him. And remember that Jaqen didn’t just fall from heaven, Arya had to save him first.
MickeyDee@71: Fascinated by later Sansa-chapters, yes, but not due to her. It’s all just watching Littlefinger playing the Game.
74. Bergmaniac:
Yeah Arya had plenty of help. Syrio and Yoren. But she still managed to sneak right into the tower of the hand with Lannisters all around her and then out of the castle and she did that by actively deciding the hide in plain sight. I try not to like delving into plot armor because the worm really starts to eat is own tail at that point, yes if Sansa were written differently then she would be different.
Sansa had Tyrion and Sandor though. She could have left with Sandor, he would have taken her to River Run, they probably would have made it, the Lannister army was out of the way unlike with Yoren/Arya.
@76 Neither of the sisters can work alone.
Arya is just lucky that most of the people she decides to trust are decent enough not to betray her – Syrio, Yoren, Gendry, Jaqen, Harwin (sort of), the Braavosi captain, The Kindly Man (sort of).
Sansa is not so lucky where she is – all her choices are bad (Cersei, Joffrey, Dontos), but are there really any good choices available for her? The risk in following The Hound was simply too big and she can’t be blamed for not taking it IMO (it was far riskier than trusting Dontos, for example).
And she can’t be blamed for not trusting people easily anymore, which may result in not taking all the possible chances of rescue.
ETA @77
Remember, Sandor didn’t make it to Riverrun on his own – he was caught by Beric’s men and nearly killed. It would have been even more difficult for him if he had been “burdened” with Sansa.
Arya kept her calm, good for her, don’t see what it has to do with being smart though.
Sansa had Tyrion? You mean one of the leaders of the enemies?
Sansa would’ve been crazy to leave with Sandor, the brute who put a knife on her throat and wasn’t that far away from raping her or killing her at this point. Besides, they probably wouldn’t have been able to get away anyway, nobody cared enough about Sandor leaving to try to stop him, but Sansa was a prized hostage, all guards knew they’d lose their heads if she makes it past them.
79. Bergmaniac:
I dunno, the hound had already rescued Sansa from a mob of actual rapists, and stood up to joffrey when he was beating Sansa, and given her advice to improve her lies. I think Sandor had demonstrated his intentions, and Sansa sure held on to that cloak of his. Also… was there a knife… I don’t think there was nice.
78. ptyx:
Presumably Sandor wouldn’t have gotten wasted and blacked out if he was guarding Sansa as opposed to just on his own. Cause that’s how Sandor was captured. The biggest risk would have been the brave companions.
@69 Are you seriously suggesting they’re not? Just because Arya and Sansa are different and fought doesn’t mean they’re not on the same team and would probably do anything to see each other again. There are plenty of examples when they both think about each other. Like Ned says to Arya ‘the lone wolf dies but the pack survives’ – they’re both Starks and just because they’re different doesn’t mean they actually hate each other. I’m very different from my younger brother and had huge fights when we were younger but that doesn’t mean we’re both not ultimately from the same family and grew out of that sibling rivalry eventually, like Arya and Sansa would have given the opportunity.
It’s amazing how just having a lot of female characters with varying personalities cures all ills in terms of gender portrayals. When a story has just one or two women they have to represent the whole gender, and pretty much however they are portrayed, from a shrieking harpy to a generic awesome-action girl, there are serious problems with their being the representative of all that is female. Once there are more characters, no one negative or positive portrayal is much of a problem, because there really are people like that out there, and it’s clear that the author isn’t saying all women share these traits, because you can just point to other female characters that are very different.
Sansa and Arya are very different, but I do hope they will come together by the end. Whether that will happen, I don’t know. I’m very concerned for Sansa, being the only Stark without a wolf now, but then again, having Grey Wind certainly didn’t help Robb.
It’s a pretty close adaptation, so if that’s all you can get go with it.
The he combined reading orders (there are several) are a Bad Idea for a first time reader.
Lots of Sansa hate here , but consider how well Arya would have fared in her place. Sansa actually has the tools to navigate her situation.
@65. Jaqen hgharr …
Thanks mate. Completely agree with your garden analogy (very apropos given how GRRM categorizes himself). Thanks for the recommendation – Nightflyers was a collection I missed. Nor can I remember seeing it in any of my usual bookstore haunts over the years. Guess I could try GRRM’s store on his website?
Anyway, back on topic. I’ve been :
Annoyed.
Angered.
Infuriated …
A little interested.
Eventually morbidly fascinated by the unfolding debate over the merits of Sansa vs Arya.
Sure, in the safety & security of an uninvaded, unbroken and uncorrupted domestic environment, the tomboyish Arya might have nurtured dreams of drubbing Sansa til she squealed.
And Sansa might have used her security & sense of place in their home(s), to wonder at and deny any possible connection to Arya after her little sister had ‘ruined’ her opportunities and or her illusions (even though Sansa had no reason to recognise them as such until that fateful moment at the Sept of Baelor).
Sansa even references Arya and ‘feeling positively wicked’ when reporting her father’s plans to what she believes is an understanding & benevolent Queen.
Granted Sansa had been shown a glimpse of Cersei’s true nature on the trip to King’s Landing, but she preferred to hang on tight to her illusions & blamed Arya for everything that went wrong there. Until the fateful moment when she saw her father beheaded, Sansa ascribed Cersei & even Joffrey with all the graces & favours she had been conditioned by her education to honour.
Sansa also ‘hated’ her sister the way many children ‘hate’ their siblings when they perceive the rest of the world to be secure and that sibling as an impediment to that security and its resultant ‘prizes’. Despite the various quotes presented in the comments – I hate to use this term but it fits – out of context, I can’t imagine if the sisters met any time after ‘Baelor’, they wouldn’t put such childish petulance aside – despite still being children themselves – and cling desperately to the thought of Family.
As for the relative intelligence of Sansa & Arya, I speak for no-one but myself, but I often recognised a sort of transference of my interpretation of events Arya experiences, in her intrepid adventures. For mine this is where the illusion of Sansa being stupid as compared to Arya comes in.
Arya has spent most of her few years hiding from who she really is, will be & what others expect of her, while Sansa has revelled in it. When tragedy strikes, Arya is forced into her ‘preferred state’, while Sansa has no security blanket of family left, when her armour of courtesy is pierced by the revelation of the true nature of those she had been taught to honour. Therefore, as a child living that dream, Sansa ascribed romantically to them, the highest ideals she knew.
At this stage (by the end of ASOS) Arya has gotten where she is by being able to hide the part of herself she always has, while Sansa has been repeatedly disabused of the illusions her sense of self – encouraged by family & teachers both – nurtured. Of course Arya is going to emerge with more credit in such situations.
For mine, Sansa is no more stupid than a child her age tends to be, while Arya’s intrepid daring puts her in situations to see things which broaden the reader’s understanding of the story. It doesn’t often help Arya to understand what is happening though, nor does it improve her I.Q.
And that’s what I meant about transference before.
Like someone once said, “It can be the easiest thing in the world to kill a man or have them killed, but finding a way to overcome them in life is the harder way. It demands you think beyond the moment and the need to get away once the deed is done.”
Arya & Sansa are family, with radically opposed outlooks, desires & ambitions, as it relates to their identity. Until the end of ASOS, GRRM has illustrated those differences most poignantly – among other things. IMO, anyone who dismisses Sansa as nothing but stupid is taking the easy road.
I was thinking something similar to Jake @83 when I was reading Leigh’s treatise about Lysa and female characters in general. I feel a bit sorry for those readers who are always analyzing what a book’s characters say about an author so that they can know if it’s ok to like the book or not. The only thing that ever bothers me about a character is when the character isn’t believable. If Lysa had been the only female character in the whole book, I wouldn’t have had a problem with the way she’s portrayed, because I can believe that such a person could exist. The same applies to entire societies, and fantasy writers especially get a lot of slack from me on that scale, because after all, they’re not writing about earth. Sometimes they’re not even writing about humans.
…and then there’s the “Gor” series. : )
Sansa and little Lord Robert act their age. They SEEM woefully immature because none of the other “child” characters, from Jon Snow on down, act their age – they are all acting/talking/thinking as if they are approx. 3-5 years older.
Edited to add: After some consideration, I take back the bit about little Lord Robert acting his age. The whole nursing 8-year-old thing is just a little too much. Destroying the snow castle is a very 8-year-old thing to do, however.
In regards to the Sansa debate: it’s always seemed to me that she is written as she is because GRRM is using her as a vehicle/tool to show the reader what is going on with certain other key characters for whom he couldn’t provide POV chapters, e.g., Littlefinger and Lysa, most recently. Thus, she has been a passive character, acting as kind of a fly-on-the-wall, and her actions don’t always track with what we would expect someone to do in the situations she’s been in, but that is because GRRM needs her to remain that way.
Looking back to the second to last Arya chapter, as she thinks about her mother:
Pretty chilling, in retrospect. Yet another “Do the gods answer prayers?” moment of ASOIAF. Strange that this would be the prayer of Arya’s that they answer, no?
I do not see Sansa as unintelligent. She was raised to revere and expect honor, chivarly and courtly love, etc. Think about her parents’ outlooks. She’s already learned that’s a load of crap, now she’s learning from Littlefinger how to be a schemer all the while appearing to be chivalrous and honorable. She’s going to learn to play the Game of Thrones better than anyone. I expect her to outmaneuver Baylish and beat him at his own game, resulting in his demise. She has an advantage over him in that he’s in love with her, or at least with her mother, acting as proxy.
@73. Sansa wasn’t away the LD were coming that day when she dressed. She was told to change her clothes when she found out.
“Aware”, that should be, not “away”.
I have to say, I had the exact same reaction as you did about Petyr Baelish. I can’t believe just how far Littlefinger’s reach extends! Varys’ pales in comparison. And I also immediately thought back to Catelyn’s witnessing to her father on his death bed talking about “Tansy” and her trueborn sons that would be born. What a tangled web we are a part of, right? It’s so difficult to keep everything in my head!
86. Gregor Lewis
yeah, thats precisely why i used it.
-Nightflyers was a collection I missed.-
Its just a short story, actually. I dont know if there is an actual collection called that way.
Should be in one of them anyway.
– Anyway, back on topic. I’ve been :
Annoyed.
Angered.
Infuriated …
A little interested.
Eventually morbidly fascinated by the unfolding debate over the merits of Sansa vs Arya. –
:P
71. MickeyDee
I always remember a comment by a poster called Kim on that most excellent “Blog of Ice and Fire” which stopped abruptly in CoK: “Congratulations, you have officially reached Stage 3 of Sansa-itis. Stage 1 was Annoyance,
Stage 2 is not experienced by all, is often brief when it is, and is Pity. Stage 3 is Total Indifference. Would you believe me if I tell you Stage 4 is Interest, and Stage 5 is Absolute Fascination?” I didn’t believe it at the time but it was sort of right. I would put it like this at the end of SoS:
1. Boredom
2. Disgust
3. Slight Pity
4. Slight Interest
5. Fascination –
In addition to all that, it seems that reading a character that is developing through a story is confusing for a lot of people – instead of having an almost premade, ready to go complete character, – like Eddard Stark, Tywin, King Robert, Tyrion, Catelyn, and many, many others.
Jon we immediatly get too. We basically know him as a character immeditaley and basically just folow him through different events. Almost adventures. – its not like anyone thought he will just grow old freezing on the wall, right?
Thing is, when you look at it objectively, Sansa story arc is perfectly written for Sansa Stark – right? Whatever she did and said … whatever else would you expect from Sansa Stark, – fer Baelor the blessed sake? Right?
Its only that the readers get to go through all of it. Including “bad” parts. Instead of Jons story arc, for example – get to go to cool epic Wall, see wilderness beyond, fight, get to be friends will cool natives and even cooler wildling king who frekin plays a harp, get to bond with yer frekin super cool direwolf and do funky shit and get the chick and save the wall and become an fing Lord Commander of the whole Night Watch because a raven lands on his shoulder and goes “Snow!”
(ofcourse he gets the tragedy of loosing the said chick, but thats just to make him kinda more righteously grim and badass)
:P
Now look at Sansa. She doesnt have any cool things to give you. She can just sit there and try desperately to talk about dresses… and they killed her wolf.
(and by the “wolf” – you do know i mean her other Wolf too, with all the recursive poignance that it was him killing the Lady, though it was others that actually caused it, and others that let it happen – which is also a little hidden poignant analogy there)
– Add to all that a view of the Hound, watching it all from the side – pissed off at the all those assholes around him pretending to be so prim but slaughtering and cheating and backstabbing one anohter – knowing exactly whats going on all that time. Because whatever you may say about Sandor Clegane, you cant say he might be delusional about something.
btw, very happy that Sophie Turner got it exactly perfect as their relationship is concerned. While many mistangly saw it for some sort of impending romance – their relationship is much deeper than that.
Because of the fact he sees things so brutaly honest – he sees Sansa as a “maiden fair” and his position as her knight, which he.. supposed to be.
So his conflicting reactions are not any wonder then, anymore, correct? The attempt to bluster himself about how he should have raped her – and saving her from a rape without a thoughts hesitation?
While she on the other hand, to perfectly balance that – is a maiden fair in a very, very shitty situation and she is saddled with Him as her knight – after all those stories she read and heard about.
Could anyone even imagine a better match of characters for the books?
Add the fact that you wouldnt have much of the Hound to see it it wasnt for Sansa.
Ofcourse, thats the start of her arc, the beginnings.
To fully talk about that character one should of course, take the whole arc of the story into account, which so masterfully ends on such a… high note.
90. Pyrrhus
Looking back to the second to last Arya chapter, as she thinks about her mother:
Pretty chilling, in retrospect. Yet another “Do the gods answer prayers?” moment of ASOIAF. Strange that this would be the prayer of Arya’s that they answer, no? –
Good of you to remind me.
– I wonder, have the Old Gods added their breath to that moment too.
I am so glad I did not have to wait years for the next book after this “Oh Sh*t!” ending. Kinda like the Batman Cliffhanger in this week’s other topic.
The best deal I found for the Legends books on iBooks for $9.99 & $7.99,
so now I am ready for the next Read.
Have a Great Holiday, y’all…..but no shopping on Thursday. It’s just not right.
(All though I will be working.)
@33, RobM2; yep, love that version of New Spring. Always felt he didn’t need to expand it into the larger book. Oh well. But it is cool that the inside cover art is from Darrel Sweet, and is about that story of the collection.
Read the Dunk & Egg book years ago before I ever read the rest. Details did not stick with me.
@42: Reusing dresses and fabric is a very common thing in a world like this. Not a sign of disrespect.
@71: I like that. Thank you for sharing Kim’s Stages.
@72: Thank you. Well put. Arya would have lasted one day with Joffery.
@98: …or Joffery would have lasted less than a day with Arya?
Well, had Arya killed Joffrey she would’ve been killed right quick, as she didn’t really have the skills at that point to do it subtly.
I really don’t understand the view that Sansa was stupid not to go with Sandor; really? A terrified 12 year old has a guy who’s been sometimes on her side, sometimes not in the past come into her room drunk and behaving in a sexually threatening manner, and we’re telling her she was dumb *not* to go with him? I think people are very much looking at it from the reader perspective–*they* know the archetype Sandor fits, and they see him with Arya later. But Sansa doesn’t know those things. I’m pretty sure nobody would think it was a good idea for her to go with someone if that were a real life situation.
It’s also extremely realistic for people to stay in the abusive/terrifying situations they are in to risk leaving. Even adults with lots of experience. It doesn’t make them stupid. And that’s even putting aside the more practical aspects of whether Sandor even would’ve been able to get anywhere at all with Sansa with him.
Agreed. The devil you know generally feels safer and wiser than the devil you don’t. It’s hard to know what one would do unless one is actually in the situation.
(I also just have trouble hating on children, fictional or otherwise. =/ I want both girls to continue growing and becoming who they are to be — with the emphasis on the fact that they are downright protoplasmic and not finished yet.)
Off Topic: All 5 books (Kindle) are on sale for $10. For the whole lot. Cyper Monday sale only.
ASoIaF read posting statistics up to the end of ASoS
– different spellings of usernames are counted separately
– punctuation is counted as words
top 50 posters by number of comments
username;comments;words;average words per comment
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5: IndependentGeorge;181;22912;126.0
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7: Bergmaniac;105;13035;124.0
8: anthonypero;102;8996;88.0
9: Braid_Tug;92;9420;102.0
10: toryx;90;12219;135.0
11: Wortmauer;76;32047;421.0
12: Randalator;74;8016;108.0
13: tnh;73;10930;149.0
14: MDNY;71;10371;146.0
15: AlirozTheConfused;69;9742;141.0
16: Aerona Greenjoy;66;3959;59.0
17: Lsana;66;10439;158.0
18: Juliet_Kestrel;61;12321;201.0
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20: Tektonica;60;7851;130.0
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33: The SmilingKnight;41;7001;170.0
34: phuzz;40;5110;127.0
35: billiam;40;6433;160.0
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top 50 posters by number of words
username;words;comments;average words per comment
1: RobMRobM;88607;638;138.0
2: stevenhalter;38311;296;129.0
3: Wortmauer;32047;76;421.0
4: Aeryl;23850;298;80.0
5: IndependentGeorge;22912;181;126.0
6: Aegnor;22852;228;100.0
7: Isilel;17661;55;321.0
8: Bergmaniac;13035;105;124.0
9: Juliet_Kestrel;12321;61;201.0
10: toryx;12219;90;135.0
11: tnh;10930;73;149.0
12: Lsana;10439;66;158.0
13: MDNY;10371;71;146.0
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There were 1305 different usernames; 686 appeared only once.
woot! finally made the list. : )
Why not by characters instead of words? We should get credit for using big words.
@104, I’m pretty amazed I’m so high, I came in to the Read late. I guess I talk. A LOT.
Birgit – as always, thanks for your hard work on this.
Rob
We have seen LF boast many times of sleeping with Cat and even taking her virginity
Is this his recollection of his drunk night with Lysa (he even called her “Cat”)?
Or is he knowingly lying?
That’s an interesting question. It seems here he never knew that first time was with Lysa not Cat, but again, he knew Lysa was forced to abort his child, so there were other times, maybe? It’s not real clear.
I almost died laughing because we had the same reaction about Cat being alive.
Did you happen to catch that Sansa was the last part of the preminition from the old lady on the hill??
I realized it myself only after I finished the book and then read that particular read of the chapter.
YAY for more GRRM!!
Loved the reread but skipped the silly feminist rant. I expect better out of you, LB!
I…guess you’re new here.
(Aside: after posting almost nothing in 2013, I’m still ranked #3 in word count? Huh.)
@103; Birgit-
Thanks for the post and the work!
Wow, I’m in the top 10 and top 20! Cool!
Doinng that for the spoiler thread would break something, right? ;-)
Have a great and safe New Year’s everyone.
@@@@@ I don’t get how people think Sansa is stupid. As an author, if you give a weapon to one side of two battling forces, you wouldn’t give the weapon to the smarter side cause the smarter side would use it right and the story would end right there. The smart side would use the great weapon and defeat the villians and the story would end. What a writer would do is give the weapon to the stupid side, the side blinded by anger that they use a weapon wrong and lose their chance to defeat their enemies and prolong the story. Arya was given three chances to kill Joffrey, Cersei and the man who chopped off her dad’s head. Three names that she whispered to herself everyday and she used it wrong. If Sansa is really the stupid one, on the side of the war, George Martin would have given her Jaqen H’ghar, she would have wasted those three chances on horrible men but not important names who killed her father and she would be seen as stupid and I would agree with that. But if he did give Sansa those names to be killed, even if there are smaller men, her choices would be smart choices. Joffrey, Cersei, and the man who chopped her dad’s head off (more of her own personal choice) but still smart. It is because she is not fueled with blinding revenge. Thus, George Martin is not killing her off because she is not the stupid one. (None of them are; Arya just works on blind anger and revenge, not stupidity, though it is a type of stupidity.) Sansa is learning to take the chance to take down her foes not quickly but smartly. That is her evolution. To take oppurtunities at the right time. To not leave King’s Landing until Petyr assured her that when he took her away, it WAS TO RETURN HER HOME. He had said this before but she didn’t trust him. Though she is a trusting girl but she learned from Joffrey and now Petyr killing Lisa that trust should not be placed lightly. This is not a story about flat characters and their actions. This is a story of kids who are growing in the environment they are given. Bran is a given a chance to fly and move with his warging though he is disabled. Ayra is forever angry and given an environment where she can expend her anger and grow and become something in it. Jon Snow is given a chance to lead though as a bastard he has no value or land or even a true name. And Sansa is growing one be able to live amongst those who kill for thrones but live efficiently, wisely and by taking the right oppurtunities.
Before Cat, there were AGOT & ACOK prologue POV’s, though they weren’t long-time protagonists but 1-chapter characters
IMO there was something off with Lysa long before the forced abortion and marriage. She had a crush on the boy who had a crush on her sister, nothing unusual about that but sneaking into his bed and having sex with him when he’s too drunk to know who he’s with crosses the line.