A Read of Ice and Fire: A Feast for Crows, Part 2

As a staunch defender of AFFC, I also have to say, that titles instead of names thing is annoying as all hell. GRRM’s explanation is not much of one either IMHO. Also often said and I agree, chosing especially this two chapters of new and rather strange POVs to start the book with is not very helpful either. Next two chapters should be delightful though.

… and Theon is (comparatively) a giant wuss who as far as I can tell doesn’t stand a chance of getting the throne anyway, unless he murders his entire family first. So, hey, let’s root for that!

LOL! You have some very intriguing ideas sometimes, Leigh.

I’m sort of ambivalent of the titles vs. names things. I do think it’s overused as this book progresses, and there is one case in particular later in the book where I really don’t think the character should have gotten a nickname, but I think I understand what Martin was going for, and in most of the cases I like it more than I don’t.

The first crop of characters we had were all names, and they all identified as…well, as themselves. Jon Snow, Ned Stark, etc.. They might have struggled with what exactly it meant to be that name, with the expectations people had for them and how they often revolved around that name, but they were who they were, even if some of them were still trying to figure out what that meant.

The crop of no-names we get in this book aren’t like that. They don’t know who they are, or they identify less with themselves as an individual and more with themselves as a title or an instrument of some greater force, or they are in grave danger of losing sense of who they are entirely. I definitely did notice the way Aeron and Areo sometimes refer to themselves in a less limited PoV, almost like a borderline omnescient narrator, but I thought it reflected how they feel about themselves. Areo is acutely aware of his foreignness, so it makes sense for him to think about hearing himself as foreign as if he were a Dornish observer. He and Aeron both see themselves as the job, and the job as critically important, more than they see themselves as people. And Aeron clearly has his own issues, but I suppose we’ll talk about that in a later post.

I thought Damphair was ‘Dampfair’ for like the entire book the first time I read it, so good work on picking up on it in the same chapter. The weird chapter title thing is weird, but it’s not a spoiler to say that he doesn’t do it for the whole book or anything if that helps.

And the Ironborn are so much DO NOT WANT that it’s not even funny, and that’s saying a lot in a world where Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane exist.

The change of pace takes a while to get used to, but I really like Feast, although that doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion.

The Ironborn’s religion is harsh and strange, but pragmatic in context. When you’re a pirate or fisherman, drowning is both a constant threat and an easy killing-method, the sea a convenient place to put corpses. If God and Heaven are under the sea, you need not fear to end up there — though drowning probably seems a less dire threat if you know many people who’ve survived it — or struggle to find or keep the bodies of shipmates lost at sea. If God favors those who sacrifice people to him, you can perform religious duties while disposing of victims/enemies. And if storms are the work of another god, a malevolent one who hates great people, you have someone to blame and something to comfort yourself with when a loved one’s ship goes down.

Yes, I’m biased. Being gloom-prone, obsessed with oceans, and obsessively gloomy about not being in oceans, I spent this chapter going “Holy carp, he sounds like ME!! I have found my alter ego/guru/soul mate!!!!” I knew you’d dislike him, Leigh, given your feelings about his fellow religious fanatic Melissandre, but I forgive you.

I think the sobriquets make sense. It isn’t who other people think of them as, but rather who they think of themselves as. Most people think of themselves as a person. But, some don’t. And that can change moment to moment.

An example – in WoT, most of the time, Rand thought of himself as Rand. But, sometimes, he thought of himself as The Dragon (either via his embrace of the title or as a tool of the Creator) and othertimes Lews (when he had his crazy-bananas moments). Had Jordan followed the same chapter title format as Martin, I think we would have seen all three at various times and it would have made more sense.

The “punch and kiss” welcoming bit is hardly an aSoI&F thing. It was a fairly routine part of initiation ceremonies, including both Catholic confirmation and in some places and times, knighthood. Liam Neeson knighted Orlando Bloom that way in “Kingdom of Heaven”, for example. Hell, Elayne & Aviendha adopted each other in WoT in a ritual with a similar set up, although it was a slap and an embrace. I guess that ironborn men are just a little more comfortable with their sexuality and less homophobic than WoT women, so they’re okay with kissing each other.

That aside, the actual drowning makes their religion the most badass in Westeros. That’s more hardcore than the Burned Men in the Mountains of the Moon, for my money. Sure burning hurts, but you don’t die from it. The ironborn have to let themselves be placed in a position of mortal injury and trust in someone else’s skills and luck to survive. And apparently, with the knowledge that no one until Aeron has had a 100% success rate.

Regarding the family stuff, I think the pattern of character types into which the Greyjoy brothers fell is interesting, and not entirely unique.

– Balon, the eldest brother, who was a larger-than-life badass heroic type (and BTW, another thing that made this chapter interesting: rather than the bitter old man, and impossible to please father, we get to see a side of Balon from his little brother who grew up idolizing him).
– Victarion, the loyal, dutiful guy who is more naturally a follower than a type like his big bro.
– Euron, a rebellious type who bucked the rest of the family
– Aeron, originally a screw-up and a joker, later transformed into a hard-core exemplar of their culture.

For the older generation of the Starks, we have:
– Brandon, whom we don’t know much about, but was apparently more charismatic than Ned who thinks he would have been a better leader and lord than Ned himself. Also Jaime characterized Brandon as more like Jaime himself.
– Ned, who was dutiful and loyal to his surrogate brother Robert
– Benjen, who is the Northern equivalent of a priest, a man of the Night’s Watch.
– There is also Lyanna, whom Ned recalls as a bit of a tomboy, and says she would have carried weapons like Arya if she could have, and would have told Robert off to his face when he had bad ideas. He also says that she had a wild streak that got her killed, which suggests maybe a parallel with Euron or Aeron part I.

There are the Baratheons:
– Robert, who started out as a heroic, larger than life warrior-type. Stannis recalls how he even made friends out of his enemies.
– Stannis, like Ned & Victarion, a dutiful loyal type.
– Renly, the joker of the family, and also something of the outlaw, in that he tries to usurp his brother’s and nephews’ superior claims to the throne.

And finally the elder generation of Lannisters;
– Tywin, whose younger brother Kevan, from his conversation in Tyrion’s cell, holds him in just as much awe as Aeron does Balon, or Ned did Brandon, or as even Stannis grudingly concedes to Robert.
– Kevan himself, from the little we see of him, is just as loyal and dutiful as Ned or Stannis, or Victarion is said to be. He’s so self-effacing that in councils, he presents Tywin’s point of view as his own, so that Tywin can remain aloof from discussions.
There were two other brothers about whom we know nothing as yet, but we know one of them fathered a bastard, probably to his eldest brother’s chagrin, implying the possibility that they might have had a similar dynamic to Balon with Aeron in his wild youth.

It will be really interesting to see if we find out more about the dead brothers, which I think is possible, since the further the series goes, the more backstory is revealed, such as in the last book, where the Red Viper revealed to Tyrion more details about old clashes between their families and how that might have incited the savage treatment of Elia when the Lannisters took the city and castle from Aerys.

I agree with most of Leigh’s comments on Dorne. Tyene creeps me out; Oberyn was also a smooth-talking poisoner, but he didn’t pretend to be childishly innocent. I don’t like the ugly whore vs. beautiful noblewoman thing regarding Obara and Nym’s mothers, but this story has more than a few ugly nobles and pretty smallfolk too. I don’t think it’s spoilery to note that Oberyn’s children are all technically bastards (Ellaria is his longtime paramour, not his wife), but someone please white it out if so. I desperately want to visit the Water Gardens, especially this time of year! And eat Norvosi wintercake.

My main problem with the non-name chapter titles is that it sometimes took me a while to realize which character’s head we were in.

A CPR instructor has told me it rarely works. If that’s true, and if Iron Island priests only fail to revive someone with it “from time to time,” they must be really good at it. Not miraculous, but impressive.

@25: Really long prologues with lots of POV switches? Sounds like the later Wheel of Time books.

I will say, as a more casual reader, the change in titling certainly discouraged me(though it didn’t keep me entirely) from peeking ahead to see who was still alive later in the book.

And as to Leigh’s point that the transfering to an outside POV we saw with Areo hadn’t be done before; doesn’t it happen in the last Catelyn chapter from ASOS? Though forgetting that is understandable, it was a pretty stressful part of the book.

@26, it’s worth noting that reviving a drowning person doesn’t typically involve CPR, but rather mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and a modified Heimlich. CPR has a low success rate because it’s trying to do the work of both heart and lungs. The priests don’t generally have to worry about anyone’s heart, just their lungs–meaning a much, much higher chance of success.

Another thing I wanted to note, because my last post got way too long, the daughters of Oberyn, the Red Viper. Their attitude of revenge is, from an objective viewpoint, kind of obnoxious. It was all Oberyn’s doing. He volunteered to fight a duel in defense of another guy and died. What, people are just supposed to roll over and die because he interjects himself into their affair? How DARE those treacherous Lannisters allow him to be killed when he decides to fight a duel to the death!

And note that each one of them appears to be capable of personal deadliness in combat. I recall back in the end of GoT, when Catelyn argued that since Ned was killed, and they had liberated their lands, there was nothing left to fight for and maybe they should make peace. Karstark or one of those guys cites her femininity as the reason why she doesn’t get their mentality, and how that is not an option for them. Yet, a female warrior was sitting right there with him, and had fought beside him in battle, along with her daughter. While some people wrote that off as sexism and stupid sexism, re: the Mormonts, I have to wonder now if it was really about Karstark’s inability to properly articulate the thought process. I think maybe it was not that a woman could not understand his feelings, but that someone socialized into the socially prescribed feminine role could not. His own insistence on vengeance against Jaime was just as unreasoning and unjustified as the Sand Snakes. Both Karstark and the Sand Snakes want revenge for a legitimate and justifiable kill. As bad as Gregor and Jaime might be in general, in those specific instances, they had every moral right to kill Oberyn and the Karstark boys, respectively.

There is also the way they divy up the aspects of the seven-faced god, where justice and war are the province of the Father and Warrior, male aspects, while mercy and wisdom are attributed to the Mother and Crone, female aspects. Like maybe the women are expected to be the voice of reason and mercy and peace, while the men are supposed to have a hair-trigger sensitivity towards threats to the House and family. The men lash out against threats to protect the individual families or factions, and the women smooth things over and keep society as a whole functioning. Note that Sansa, the epitome of feminine socialization, is the hit of the party when she’s not being directly brutalized. She calmed down the panicky crowd during the battle when Cersei got wasted and prematurely pulled Joffrey from the battlefield, before running out to check on her baby. Tyrion noted how she made a good impression during the reception at Joffrey’s wedding, and thinks that those same social skills would have made her a good queen.

So my point is, maybe people in Westeros are trained into specific roles from birth, to a greater degree than in our society. If not by conscious design, than by a kind of Darwinian process whereby this sort of training is what enables families to succeed and survive over the decades and centuries. With that in mind, the daughters of Oberyn & Ellaria, not having been trained according to the typical female roles, have instead absorbed the masculine perspective of “you hurt me, you pay, even if it’s not your fault,” just as they learned to handle spears and whips and knives.

That upbringing process could also explain the superficial similarities in family dynamics in four families from three different subcultures I noted in my prior post.

Maybe rather than simply dismissing Catelyn’s attitude as some sort of female squeamishness, he was instead referring to their specialties, like a military officer brushing off a diplomat’s suggestions as inappropriate to a situation he feels calls for a military response.

Another aspect is that Doran Martell has that “female” perspective toward the situation with Oberyn & the Sand Snakes. While he might be relived to be rid of a loose cannon like his brother, and thus not as motivated to seek vengeance, maybe it’s more because he was raised as the heir to their mother, who had ruled Dorne before him, and from her, took in a more feminine mindset, and allowed his brother to be saber-rattler.

(roll over for possible spoilers)
Oh, and another family of brothers I just recalled:
The Targaryens in the Dunk & Egg stories.
– Daeron is a drunk, like Aeron’s original iteration
– Aerion is an outlaw type, like Euron or Renly
– Aemon is a loyal, self-effacing type
– Aegon/Egg is still unformed, so we don’t know. We don’t know what kind of a king he was or how good a ruler he was (though he had Dunk with him, I am guessing, from Jaime’s list of Kingsguard leaders, which includes “Ser Duncan the Tall”).

Baelor tells Dunk before the trial that Maekar is disappointed in his sons, which is why he is lashing out at Dunk. Maybe the problem is that he was wishing for a Balon/Robert/Tywin/Brandon type and instead only had the other three. You could say the same thing about their generation too, to a degree. Baelor is the hero type, while Maekar is either the outlaw-malcontent, or the dutiful supporting-cast brother. The description of their roles in the battle with the Blackfyres, as the “hammer and anvil” of the loyalist forces, suggests the latter. We know another brother was king before Maekar (during “The Sworn Sword,” as a matter of fact), but not how good he is or how that relates to his role among their family. And, too, there is no real indication that a brother from a particular role would necessarily make a good or bad lord. Tywin was probably the most capable of the Lannister brothers, but his analog among the Baratheons, Robert, certainly was not the best ruler in his family. Stannis and Renly were probably both better rulers by the time the series starts.

Yeah, it took me more years than I like to admit to clue into the Damp Hair thing. I’d blame it on not being a native English speaker, but I’m fluent enough to never have problems like that otherwise.

I do enjoy the Ironborn “color” – which is such an ironic term here – he provides. His own personal history, his family history, his views on the succession. Also, if the Goodbrothers are named Gorold, Gormond, Gran, Greydon, Gysella and Gwin, and the (male) Greyjoys all have names ending in -on, it makes me wonder what was up with Donel. Named for someone? We’ll probably never know, but I like the inclusion of little details like that.

Also, screaming iron hinges. And that call for “Aeron King!” has a strong feel of “Theoden King!” Except, of course, deconstructed.

I like the first look at Dorne, despite the slight oddness of Areo Hotah. (Sometimes I wonder if the reason these chapters have titles instead of names is because Aeron, Areo, and Arya as chapter headings would be too confusing.) The Water Gardens, citrus fruits and pomegranates, colorful clothes and darker skin/hair/eyes. I do like the Sand Snakes, and Doran as well. Not to mention the way Dorne just doesn’t follow the same rules as the rest of Westeros – gender-blind primogeniture, “I was abed with the Fowler twins when the word reached me” just casually tossed out…

And the way Doran speaks of talking to Oberyn before he left made me sad. “We were eating oranges” reminded me of Stannis, and Renly’s peach.

I have to say I agree with Leigh 100% (and I don’t agree with her on a whole lot) when it comes to the weird new chapter titles. It becomes even more of a mess when you mix back in the usual names “Jaime” “Sam” etc. and then start to change existing names to the weird new titles “Alayne” “Cat of the Canals”. GRRM has said there is a method to his maddness, but to me it just irks and takes me out of the story since its such a weird breaking of the 4th wall thing to take the characters identify issues and stuff them down our throat 4 books into the series. I hate it and wish he just used the original chapter names. (roll over to read).

Also, I took it as implied that Aeron is to the Drowned God as Thoros is to R’hollor–though his attitude toward the whole thing is closer to Melisandre’s. It seems to me that he actually is reviving people with assistance from his god, though.

@30, 31, 41: Thanks for clarifying that. I was learning Wilderness First Aid, where the lack of quick hospitalization would of course lead to a lower success rate. No, I never thought Aeron’s success indicated magical powers, just experienced expertise. Though magic could now be starting to factor in, as noted in 43. Who knows…

Writing inconsistencies – I told you. Begining of the decline. Some good parts in this books but its pretty much a down hill from here.
I havent noticed the gramatical shift so much myself, but yes, of course. Once pointed out it fits with the… rest.

@49: House Ambrose has a bunch of red ants for a sigil, as mentioned briefly later in AFFC. I don’t know why they do, but ants are among the most multitudinous, pernicious, and collectively-powerful animals around. They would be a fitting Frey sigil, come to think of it. @50: Oh yeah, I love that sigil. *glances over the heraldry lists on westeros.com and is intimidated by all the words I don’t know*

@51: Yessss, and well said. My other response to this chapter was “Oh, he needs to meet Patchface!!” I adore Aeron madly, but Patchface speaks so freely and lyrically that it’s no wonder Mel dislikes him, even if she seems to vastly out-compete him as a missionary.

Hey Leigh, I was also annoyed by the chapter titles. GRRM refuses to tell us why, stating “there is a method to his madness”. One theory I have read is that all chapters are labeled how the characters see themselves at the time. I kind of makes sense and explains why Ned’s chapters are called Eddard and not Ned. Again its just a theory and until GRRM spills the beans its not confirmed. Hope it helps, I wish I knew when I read this book for the first time.

Damp hair? LOL.
I always thought the Euron would sound like “urine” in normal (or fast) conversation.

“Merlyn” translates as “Sea fortress”, which is an appropriate name for an island lord…

#71 still has spoilers. Please white out the character’s names

I’m just doing a re-read of the series, and following along here — and enjoying the heck out of your long sojourn through these books, Leigh. Thanks for doing this series!

I just wanted to chime in on something nobody seems to have picked up on here, spec. the Aeron chapter and his constant fears/nightmares of “a squeaking hinge” — the references of which seem to be associated with Euron.

Sounds like a past trauma to me, and given his overwhelming antipathy for Euron, fear or dread of him even, I can’t help wondering if when quite young Aeron was molested by his older brother (who is demonstrated at every turn to be slefish and cruel, no great surprise there).

Certainly nothing too strong to support this, but why exactly is Aeron constantly having nightmares about a squeaking hinge? (Near the end of the chapter, “for once” his sleep was not troubled by a creaking hinge.)

Can’t understand people complaining about chapter titles as if it’s so much important. What would change if we had plot-setting words or just numbers instead of character names or titles? It’s the story that matters.