A Read of Ice and Fire: A Feast for Crows, Part 10

no thoughts on how much of a jerk Sam’s father is when you finally get to meet him?

I was at least hoping for some no wonder sam hates his father thoughts.

I totally get that hopelessness you’re talking about. Let’s say life is Neapolitan ice cream. Chocolate is happiness, strawberry is despair, and vanilla, I dunno, I’m going to say ennui.

Martin has been serving up a big old scoop of strawberry, with just enough chocolate mixed in for you to miss it. Those bits of chocolate are that much sweeter given how far apart they are.

Contrast that with The Wheel of Time, which had a lot more chocolate (and to be fair, some of that boring vanilla in places) with not nearly as much strawberry.

Is A Song of Ice and Fire more “realistic”? Well, it certainly tackles the type of ice cream that other fantasy novels don’t. But I’d say it’s still out-of-balance, just in a different direction.

To strain the metaphor to the breaking point, Leigh, you are eating this particular bowl of ice cream in a way that few other people do. Instead of rushing through the parts that are less enjoyable, you’re eating it a bit at a time in measured spoonfuls, where every tiny bit passes over the taste buds. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re getting sick of the flavor.

Oh, and my apologies if you like strawberry ice cream best. The metaphor had to pick a side.

Randyll Tarly is so utterly hateable. This, on top of what he’s done to Sam. Yeach.

In all the awfulness of Brienne’s flashback, what gets to me the most is the line about how, out of all the things Hyle Hunt did to get on her good side, the one that meant the most to her was that he “even trained with her one day.” Says a lot about what Brienne’s daily life was like.

I waffle back and forth all the time on optimism about the human race. On the one hand, I think that by and large humanity is far better off than it was hundreds of years ago, which would lend credence to your suggestion that humans can (and do) better themselves in aggregate. I really do identify with the MLK quote “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”

On the other hand, a lot of that betterment can at least partly be linked to an improvement in technology (medical, agricultural) which eases a lot of the existential crises that so inform some (not all) of our most awful behaviors. So there’s always the creeping fear in the back of my mind that if all our creature comforts were to suddenly vanish, a great deal of the societal progress we’ve made would vanish with them. Not all, and not with everyone, but it’s much easier to focus lots of energy on personal and societal improvement when you aren’t worried where your next meal is coming from or whether someone will try to kill you for it. So I guess I would say that while humans can and do improve themselves given the means, those improvements are as fragile as they are beautiful.

This is getting a bit too meta (don’t care if it’s about taxes or feminism) as in you don’t even say anything about the content of the chapter anymore? Color me dissappointed.

Tarly’s victim blaming (and that oh-so-unfunny knights wager) is typically misogynist of course (don’t talk to my Dad about sexual assault or rape, he is exactly like that, plus he even seems to find it hilarious. He just doesn’t get it. He really doesn’t.)

Of course this chapter needs major discussing in this regard (I think most complainers just don’t want it to be the major topic of every chapter), but I would have liked some reference to the actual story told too.

I found it very blackly hilarious and old school in a 1950s sense that Randyll, threatened to put a Brienne in some woman’s clothing and ship her ass back to her daddy.

“don’t come crying to me if you get raped!”

Question: Would Randyll get along with Tywin, or is it just too much crotchety “get the job done” assholery in one room?

I agree with a lot of Leigh’s comments, and I think this is definitely an appropriate chapter for a discussion of gender issues. It’s important to understand the hardships Brienne has gone through. I’d guess that, unfortunately, many of us female readers are none too surprised at the particulars of her experience. I wasn’t surprised at least, it was more like ‘Yup, that sounds about right.’

I would argue that even though Brienne is self-conscious and probably has other issues as a result of all this taunting and mistreatment, it shows an amazing amount of strength that she hasn’t let it chase her into hiding, or change the way she comports herself, or her idealism in believing that people can act with honor. She doesn’t seek revenge but just continues on, and acts with honor herself despite how she’s been treated.

I also love Brienne and Pod together, and just as Pod didn’t judge Tyrion based on his height, he also doesn’t discriminate against Brienne for being a woman and is more than happy to squire for her and learn from her. I see this as a positive note that there are people out there, even in ASOIAF, that aren’t so quick to shape their perceptions and behaviors based on societal norms.

I would disagree with the idea that GRRM is wallowing in the negative aspects of human nature, for the most part anyway. I see it as realism. IMO many of the disturbing behaviors and points of view in this world are identical to what we would see in the real world under these circumstances. Human nature is what it is and there will always be individuals who act only in their own self interests or for their own pleasure. I think a prettier version of the story where people aren’t willing to go to such horrible lengths to get what they want just wouldn’t be the story GRRM is trying to write.

That doesn’t mean society as a whole can’t change, and in doing so place more pressure on the individual to deny their baser instincts. But in a world at war with a potentially decade-long winter coming, I find the scale of negative and horrible actions to be pretty realistic.

I also think that there is hope in the story. A lot of our favorite characters are still plugging away trying to make their little bits of the world safer or more stable while NOT acting like giant douchebags, and I think that’s why we keep reading and hoping for the best for them.

Seeing Cersei and Randyll Tarly interact as Queen Regent and Hand of the King would have been brilliant.

The kind of darkly hilarious thing is that discussing sexism draws out the exact kind of people we are talking about in large numbers. The irony is fantastic if you don’t really care. The only people who jump on you for this are, at best, wishing you had discussed some other point they found interesting, or at worst stupid (insert bad word here) people you should completely disregard.

Tarly has enough of a sense of propriety to end the”game” his knights were playing on Brienne, That meant he had to exercise his authority over men who are loyal to him in favor of someone he neither likes nor really trusts, so he resents and blames her for it. It is not a nice reaction, it is not a just reaction, but it is rather human. The misogyny is largely an excuse, with someone else, he would have expressed his resentment for different reasons.

My personal thought is that a person who isn’t blinded by anger at that is at least lacking in empathy.

Oh, Jeez, thanks for that I guess. (INTP and not sorry. Sorry.)

But you seem to be right insofar, as to me it becomes more and more clear with every new AFFC chapter covered, that Leigh can be counted to the majority of readers who don’t like/enjoy AFFC at all.

She pretty much stopped covering any plot points I find interesting at chapter 3 or so, which is my problem of course, and likely because AFFC is my favorite besides ASOS.

Zambi – would love to see some nonspoilerish thoughts on what you are seeing in the chapters that Leigh is missing.

Now that would me be going meta I think. It’s nothing major. I just would like to hear much more of her thoughts on the characters, their development and their interactions than I do right now.

For some reason I thought it was much more in ASOS but maybe I’m just expecting to much because the character building in AFFC is definitely on a different level and maybe it can’t be covered in such a read. I donno, I just don’t get as much enjoyment out of this read anymore as I used to (which could be a parallel to people/Leigh not enjoying AFFC maybe?) and am whining a bit here.

If my two cents might be worthwhile, I’d like to take a second to paraphrase here. Now… how does the line go again…? Ah, yes.

Leigh is not your bitch.

I think that does it.

Rather than feeling enraged at a fictional setting, why not examine how the characters deal with it?

Cersie, Brienne, Daenerys, Catelyn, Arya, Sansa, Arianne, Asha, and at least one more woman we meet in a few chapters, all deal with the sexiest setting in which they find themselves in very different ways. I find their thoughts and actions far more intriguing than the setting itself. Martin does a very interesting compare and contrast of some of their styles in this book.

@54-I’m strongly hoping for a Leigh Butler reread of this series eventually, so she can really get into the connections across the whole series the way she has with the WOT reread. It’s a lot harder to have discussions on a first read due to the spoiler issues and lack of the “big picture” including everything that has been written so far. It might be a lot to ask of her though, eventually even Leigh may get bored of doing (re)read posts.

So I thought I’d comment, not to comment specifically on the feminism issue, but more on the wider idea of A Song of Ice and Fire bringing up social issues merely so it can wallow in the misery of them. See, this may sound odd but I actually think that ASOIAF is a very optimistic series.

The humour in the series keeps things from becoming completely bleak. There’s this undercurrent of romanticism and nostalgia about the past golden ages – and a major theme of the series is these older days coming back, exemplified through the return of magic to the world most obviously

Despite the awfulness of the world in which these characters live, they do do good things, they do get redeemed, the bad guys do get their come-uppance. People like Joffrey and Tywin are mouldering prematurely in their graves as much as Ned or Robb are.

Ultimately I think the series is realistically optimistic. There are shitty people in this world and ours, and there always will be. To deny that is just delusional. But there’s so much good too, and I think Brienne is a great example of that. I reject any notion that ASOIAF is cynical, or wallowing in the mud of misery.

I love how Leigh chews through all these chapters… the Greyjoys, Brienne wandering about, the Dornish…
All these sections are HATED by tons of book fans. All they want is more Badassery, and more plot progression to race toward the finish of the series. They want to see Arya to murder her way through her list (with little to no thought or compassion for how messed up and psychotic that is). The point of Arya’s POV imho is about how messed up it is… not how cool it is.

So I am very pleased to know that Leigh gets it.

Don’t let the haters get you down.

also, Spoilers:
If you have read all the books this blog has phenomenal insights about oft overlooked sections of the later books http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/

@@@@@ 60 – “…dilemma: does only a good man make good ruler?” Or, is it possible for a good man (or woman) to rule? Ruling means imposing your will on others – with the rewards and punishments necessary for obedience. It requires violence and pain. We have seen Daenerys and the Starks wrestle with morals and honor while trying to rule. Stannis and Tarly just do it.

@@@@@72 – Yes! Tarly is not a think-outside-the-box guy. Even Ned Stark was willing to sign his daughter up for fencing lessons.

I knew Leigh was going to love Randyll Tarly’s stance on women. It would almost make you forget that it is the Same Randyll Tarly who tortured his son because he wanted to be a maester. And to consider we hated Jaime just because he pushed a child out of a window after having sex with his sister… We were so innocent back then…

One of the real complaints about fanatics (as opposed to subjective distaste for the same) is how they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but what is else is going on when so many fail to take note of Tarly’s attitude toward rape, which is a bit more progressive than the boys-will-be-boys attitude most of Westeros seems to take, at least when it comes to warfare (and only specifically shared to Tarly’s extreme by the much-detested Stannis Baratheon). For all that Tarly expresses his distaste for Brienne’s behavior, he did and does little to stop it, aside from hurting her feelings, while the most prominent survivor of the gamers is still in his doghouse. Then too, Hunt and his friends were not actually raping anyone. They were attempting to encourage Brienne to engage in mutually consenting sexual activity. Or is there supposed to be a double standard for men enjoying themselves and those bold pioneering women who do the same?

Another commenter actually complains about Tarly punishing a prostitute for spreading a disease. Would she have complained if he punished a merchant for selling rotten or tainted food? A blacksmith whose weapons had sharp splinters in the handles and hilts? A shipwrighter who sold a boat with a leak? Punishing those who knowingly sell defective merchandise is justice, but the reflexive affinity for fellow females condemns this male who dared punish a woman.

Overall the issue of prostitution has been neglected in the series, giving characters like Shae and Tyrion a pass for engaging or indulging in it. We call someone who engages in non-sex-related activity a “whore” when they put a price on some quality that is not supposed to be a commodity, such as artistic integrity, or one’s own respect and reputation when endorsing or supporting products or positions in which one has no real belief, merely an interest in remuneration. But what else is a prostitute? Someone who sells their dignity and personhood, who allows himself or herself to be objectified, and thus permits and tacitly encourages the objectification of their group.

Tyrion is totally taking advantage of desperate women, but he’s our lovable little Imp, so no one calls him on it. While the way Tywin acts out his attitude, and his own hypocrisy in his private actions, are wrong, the attitude itself is not without merit. Sure, he is probably more concerned about appearances for the House, and the potential compromise by a sexual partner, as his father is said to have been, but a negative attitude towards such dehumanizing and exploitative institutions is not be despised, any more than settling for theives and murderers refraining from committing their crimes out of fear of punishment.

People love to complain about sexual double standards, but those are rooted in biology. Girls might get slut-shamed for the exact same behavior that is ignored or winked at in boys, but boys don’t get pregnant. Boys don’t have their lives (and often their family’s lives) disrupted by the consequences of their behavior, absent legal compulsion or an actively responsible attitude toward such consequences (i.e. manning up and doing your share to support the little bastard), so there is less incentive, aside from whacky extremist religious prohibitions to keep sons in line. Although, again, it is the more hardcore and uncompromising types who practice such restrictions – Stannis, etc: Tarly might be despicable in his treatment of Sam and Brienne, but he went through an extreme effort before writing off the former, and it was the favorite son he raised who recognized a wrong being done to the latter and reported it to his father, rather than going along because these were the SoI&F equivalent of the cool jocks who were doing it. As extreme as Tarly might be, he is evenhanded in his treatment of men and women. He does not practice a double standard, but holds both men and women to their socially imposed gender roles.

Anyway, complaining about the mistreatment of prostitutes, or the sexual standards to which women are generally held, by citing bad male behavior is akin to protesting the punishment of pickpockets, because there are also burglars at large. I am not really aware of any explicit moral code in Western Civilization (including Islam) that holds different levels of sexual activity to be acceptable for men or women. Fornication is fornication. Men and women are both enjoined from practicing it, and from practicing adultery. The double standards in practice come from a failure to follow those codes and belief systems all the way through, and result from the practical necessity to curtail the activity of the gender that is most affected by biological consequences. There might be a degree of hypocrisy in the parent who quotes the Bible to a daughter in attempting to keep her from risky behavior while ignoring the same in a son, but that hypocrisy is in their citing a belief they do not practice in order to shield the family from real consequences of imprudent behavior.

And in the world of SoI&F, where there are no blood tests or DNA, enforcing responsibility on men who don’t care to act on it is a difficult proposition, making the necessity of avoiding an unwanted child even more onerous on the women. It sucks, but it is no more a consequence of sexism than mentrual cramps (though either can be an incitement of sexism or used as a justification).

BTW, similar biological issues come about regarding women in combat, at least in a pre-gunpowder world. The origin of aristocratic and peasant classes is in the practical inability to be particularly effective at both combat and food-production. Knights are not noble or men who have access to nobles because it is a privilege of rank, but because it is only nobles who have the time, resources and liesure to train and arm themselves and their comrades as knights. That is, in fact, the reason WHY they have time and resources – because they are supposed to be protecting the peasants, who are then able to produce food, among other things, in peace. So the failure to arm and train women comes into play, because those resources (time, funds, steel) are relatively scarce, and better spent on the people who will be most effective with them. Adding in the fact that discipline in training and mobilization is better achieved without interpersonal relationships distracting the individuals involved, and restricting the employment of arms to a single, heterosexist gender makes good sense. From Tarly’s perspective, however deplorable the behavior of the knights towards Brienne, it’s better for the army to have that dozen or more knights, than one Brienne, no matter how good (in either sense of the term) she is. So again, from a practical perspective, driving out the one who doesn’t fit, no matter how in the right she or he might be, is morely likely to result in a win. A better man than Lord Randyll might have put it differently to Brienne, but he’d have either removed her from his army or else accepted the inefficiencies that came with it.

And even in a hypothetical society where you can encourage men to ignore natural instincts against homicide and danger without making them into huge assholes, putting women en masse in the army is good way to be short of workers and fighters a whole generation hence. Robert Jordan, the combat veteran was aware of this, and we see in WoT that the most martial societies are the most sexist (Moiraine attribute’s Rand’s reluctance to kill women to his being raised in a culture with a Borderlands mentality) regarding warfare. This is because a culture that lets women die in large numbers, does not last long, through personnel shortages, if nothing else. The warlike Aiel compensate by taking explicit steps to minimize the removal of Maidens from the breeding pool (i.e. making them step down while pregnant, and arranging for the children to be raised by a non-combatant woman, while removing any social stigma from such births), and by having polygamous relationships, whereby a shortage of breeding males can be compensated for (THAT, not sexism, is a more likely reason why Leigh’s oft-cited wish to see a polyandous Aiel trio was never fulfilled).

And we see in aSoI&F that the warrior women of the Seven Kingdoms support such ideas. Brienne, Asha Greyjoy and the Mormont ladies are all from outlying islands, where attackers can rapidly approach before the men can be gathered and deployed for defense, while the Dornish, as we shall see, draw their female warrior acceptance from a riverine culture, which would have had similar issues.

Likewise, there are the spearwives of the northern wildlings, but they, and the Dornish, are both underpopulated subcultures. Also, aside from the wildlings, those women are all from noble families, who have the luxury or time and resources to spare teaching women to fight with pre-gunpowder weapons. BTW, contrary to popular culture’s assumptions, bows and crossbows are also weapons that require muscles to work, and thus are not more plausible weapons for girls. No one with long practice with a non-mechanical bow of decent range, has the physique of Kiera Knightley in “King Arthur”, and while the TV show has Arya as a superior archer to Bran, the book written by a much better-informed writer has her completely ignorant of the weapon, and training with one that plays to physical attributes that women share in equally with men: reflexes, agility and, loathe as I am to admit it where my mother or sister could conceivable see this, intelligence and observational acuity.

In short, biology, and in particular, reproductive biology is a real factor in the sexual standards and military issues imposed on women, especially in a pre-gunpowder, pre-pharmaceutical culture like aSoI&F or tWoT.

Oh, re: the greater sexism debate, write what you want, Leigh. But it is not a mark of strength to be so obviously affected by mere words from other people, particularly in a narrow situation where you are the one with all the power and they can literally do nothing to stop you. Complaining about the criticism could be construed as a form of tone policing or silencing, if you look at it in a certain way.

The story is in a peculiar phase at the moment. The war has died down due to massive elimination of players, rampaging armies no longer supplement rampaging outlaws, order is actually returning to some places, and many major “villains” of books 1-3 (e.g. Joffrey, Tywin, Gregor, Lysa, Theon, Hoat) are dead or incapacitated. Now it’s time for deeper exploration of relative-peacetime society, introduction of new baddies, and (if GRRM truly does have a misery quota to maintain) less dramatic forms of cruelty. Because most of the chapters so far have been voiced by, and/or centered on, female characters, much of this has focused on the many experiences of women in this culture.

I happen to love reading it. Almost every minute of it. I wouldn’t want to live there (except as Asha, maybe) but find it fascinating to learn about. I feel bad about putting you through this if it pains you so, Leigh, but welcome any commentary you choose to give.

Only…call Randyll something nasty, pweeease? *puppy face* The acanthocephalan (spiky-headed gut parasite) deserves it. Torturing Sam? Treating Brienne that way?? Cutting seven fingers off some starving kid for looting an abandoned sept, so he’ll almost certainly starve now?!

That said, I spent some time wondering why Randyll victim-blames Brienne but generally gelds/exiles rapists. I’m guessing he’d explain it thus: “It’s my job to rebuild this area. If men under my authority rape an innocent woman who’s come to support the town’s fragile economy, it scares away business and gives the impression that I can’t or won’t control them. But if a stubborn girl goes off into the wilderness when she can and should be safe at home and some outlaws do what such men will do, that’s not really my problem, is it?” That doesn’t explain his excusing the knights who sought to seduce her and would, he believed, have eventually “taken the prize by force.” Maybe the knights didn’t think they were being cruel, but Brienne was clearly traumatized by their betrayal.

I just realized the moderator comment was directed at me previously. I have been trying to remain careful in my conversation here, but if I have been too aggressive or come close to it, I want to apologize to anyone who I disrespected. That would be a failure on my part.

I will, for the time being, move away from the screen and approach the thread afresh another time.

This chapter also portrays a rare and momentary reversal of normal aristocratic values, with the potential rape of a noblewoman being more acceptable than raping a peasant.

Don’t forget the WoT reread. Leigh misses a lot, or at best decides not to mention a lot of interest to plot/theme/etc. Shouldn’t we be more forgiving of a first time read?

I also haven’t seen mentioned that Brienne has an important societal role she’s forsaking: she’s an heir.

There’s also the problem that different readers read for different reasons. While I sympathize with the forest for the trees comments, don’t forget that if those chapters were from Hunt’s PoV, it’s quite likely there’d be posts of why won’t that bitch put out–I trained a damn monkey and went to great effort for food and entertainment for her, what else could she possibly want?

@101, that’s fine, but then two chapters later when she’s asking “Should I remember this person?” that was introduced a two chapters ago, it really muddles it for people that might be reading along with her when she goes on tangents like this, no matter how justified they are.

@88 – Suspension of disbelief is part of it. We have to accept the setting – which includes a Dark Age feudal society with highly defines gender roles. Spend the whole book raging at that background and you miss Brienne’s awesome stubbornness and persistence. Her absolute refusal to change or be diverted is awesome – and wouldn’t be revealed in a different setting.

@83 – I assumed Tarly was punishing the prostitute for giving his soldiers VD. Damaging the effectiveness of his fighting force would be a serious crime to him.

I wonder if the guards were really going to rape the farmer’s wife given the rough justice Tarly was dishing out. Once Hyle was there, they certainly weren’t going to fight or rape, since either would have had them answering to Tarly’s court.

I think the close discussion of feminism, particularly as you are eloquently versed in it, is very interesting and informative. I do, however, think you gloss over or miss completely opporitunities to discuss other contexts. I for one would love to pick your brain about how this Brienne arc fits in contextually with the other major female arcs in the series. I find it fascinating that Brienne is judged harshly for her descision to be a bold female in a bold male role, while Danaerys is becoming increasingly mythologized and worshipped while using feminine monikers like queen, mother, etc. There is no doubt that Danaerys uses her mythos to propogate her agenda too, namely by making the title queen something more than adjunctory to that of king. More on that in DoD!
And these in comparisson with Cersei who IS a queen and a mother in truth and is constantly disarmed by the men around her. And then Arya who camoflauges at every opporitunity, generally letting those around her think of her as a boy in order to survive. I think it would be a very interesting discussion indeed to break down each of those four roles, compare then, and contrast successes and failures, and speculate on the whys of each. Mostly because by this point, the heavy handed hammerness of the overtly sexist themes are redundant; I really feel like the addition of Brienne as a major character arc was Martin’s attempt to tac on a new train of thought in gender equality than what has previously been established in the series.

Also, re: pessimism, I feel like the constant obliqueness of the series is at large with the central derterminism of its’ characters’ wills to survive. This is why I feel like ultimately the series is secretly optimistic. I think this is especially true in Jon and Tyrion’s chapters (though Tyrion will get a bit.. well.. you’ll see in DoD. More on that later.) This series certainly aims to demolish noble illusions that the fantasy genre tends to propogate about this late medieval time period of human history, but I do think it secretly believes that all of the hellish context of these times weren’t completely worthless, else all of the characters would say “Why bother?” and slit their wrists and then we’d have a much shorter and less interesting.

How does that song by the Village People go?

‘You can’t stop the music…
…nobody can stop the music…’

Why are some so intent on stopping the music here?

I know in this age of enlightenment and technological advancement, there will be people who feel there’s nothing they can’t do. When it comes to promoting positivity and inclusiveness, that’s a great way to be. When it comes to trying to change someone other than yourself – however wrong, misguided, incomprehensive or ‘one-eyed’ you may feel they are – that is an ‘invitation to the sidetrack’ (as my non-native English speaker father likes to say).

Writing as someone who took the long road to understanding this, with many ports of call along the way, learn from my experience.

Of course the easy solution would be to turn the music off. Many enlightened folk, bastions of inclusivity, have invited me to do just that in many forums on many ‘sites’ (both virtual and physical) over the years.

Instead I have learned – too slowly, but there ya have it – the best way to ‘overcome’ is to positively promote one’s point of view. You will be insulted, but that doesn’t mean you should retaliate. You will be baited, but that doesn’t mean you should bite.

That doesn’t preclude you from being positively insistent though.

If you feel – in this specific instance – that things are being missed in the Read, whether it be deliberately or through ignorance, don’t complain (however politely) and definitely don’t whine about it!

You can’t stop the music. Remember?

Why not try to positively contribute an antiphonal response of your own, when the music stops? Don’t wait for others to ask you here. Tell us what you saw, in addition to what has been presented. Give us something to discuss positively, instead of drawing us in regressively to carp on what is missing.

Now there’s no need to be a lickspittling sycophant. I’m not advocating that at all. But there is no need to be rude and offensive either. Rather than emphasising the negative connotations of what is being presented with buzzwords like ‘rant’, ‘tokenism’, ‘femmo-centric intractability’, positively present your point of view ONLY.

Be silent on the fact of what was missing, while loudly presenting the facts as you read them (if you are reading along) or as you remember them (if otherwise). Let your silence on the initial presentation be an indictment, if such a thing is what you wish to display.

But, better yet, move past indicting anyone and try to include everyone with what you have to say (write). Don’t be accusatory or leave yourself open to agendas and accusations that you are discriminatory.

Take what you can get from what is given … And ADD to it … as comprehensively as you can, or as succinctly as you wish. The choice is yours, but in however you decide to contribute, ( I say this from experience) try hard to ensure that whatever it is you have to say (write) adds to the discussion qualitatively as well as quantitatively.

grl

@109: I think it might be a spoiler to say that (((we’ll see more of Dany and Tyrion’s progress in ADWD, which implies that we’ll see them little, if at all, in AFFC))). Mods, any thoughts on this?

Also, you can edit your posts if you have a Tor.com account. It’s why I eventually “took the black.”

@123: Women can’t be professional scholars either, as far as we’ve seen, with that role mostly reserved for maesters. I’m not sure who Randyll thinks should be maesters — younger sons of wimpy houses, maybe. Assuming he doesn’t disapprove of them on principle, like some of the Ironborn.

Right. So I think a Tarly daughter’s desire to be a master might anger him as much as Sam’s, and the idea might be more scandalous to Westeros at large than a woman warrior. Which is sad, since that’s what I would want to do if I lived there. ;-)

@131 True, but the irony is that Brother Sam of the Night’s Watch is a Tarly, whereas Maester Samwell would not be. He would lose his family name at the citadel, as Maester Aemon did.

As the characters’ understanding of hierarchy is defined in-story, everybody serves. The king serves the needs of the realm, while the nobles serve the king himself or his intermediaries, according the status they have within that hierarchy.

I suppose I’m being pedantic, but I would imagine Tarly sees the one as noble duty and the service we have been discussing as indentured servitude.

IMO it goes back to the notion I raised a couple of weaks ago. Nobles like Tarly feel they have earned what they have, because no matter how they got it, it is theirs to hold, defend and/or expand, only so long as they are able to do so.

I’m sure a renowned commander like Tarly would equate his success at the above as a re-affirmation of his noble status, while viewing any deliberate choice of a lesser path as anathema … a disgraceful form of indentured servitude, far beneath his family’s status. And what’s worse, as a Maester, a potentially highly visible one.

As for a prejudice against scholarship, in and of itself, I don’t think Sam would have been allowed such access to such works as he has, if that was the case. It’s just that in Tarly’s eyes, the martial side of things would take precedence.

In otherwords, Sam could indulge in scholarship, so long as it did not interfere with his ‘noble warrior’ status, in Randyll’s ideal world. Given Sam’s state when he arrives at the Wall and what we later learn, that was just not going to happen, in the environment his father cultivated.

grl

“There is only one response to seeing a human person treated so horribly, and that’s to feel anger.”

So, if I feel disappointment because Tarly was too blinkered to see the value of Brienne I’m reading it wrong? I’d like to know how to read it right before I get too deep into the book.

@153

I don’t see a plot-hole. Both Asha and Lady Webber are beautiful and charismatic, while Brienne is ugly and tongue-tied. So it makes sense that Asha and Rohanne can win some respect as war leaders (and it still takes a lot of effort), but Brienne cannot, whatever she does.