Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 29 of A Feast for Crows, in which we cover Chapter 40 (“The Princess in the Tower”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 40: The Princess in the Tower
What Happens
Arianne takes comfort in the luxury of her prison as evidence that her father will not kill her for her betrayal, but she is upset that no one will tell her what happened to her comrades or to Myrcella. She’d pleaded with Areo Hotah that she’d never meant any harm to come to the girl, but Hotah was unmoved by her entreaty. She’s been imprisoned at the top of the Spear Tower, and the castellan, Ser Manfrey Martell, has told her that her friends were taken to the terrible prison of Ghaston Grey. She grieves for Ser Arys Oakheart, and tries to figure out who could have betrayed her plan. She will not believe it of her friends, and thinks it makes no sense for Ser Gerold Dayne, who escaped, to be the traitor either.
She demands to see her father, but the servants will not speak to her. She thinks the Sand Snakes might be imprisoned in the tower along with her, but her shouts out the window bring no answer. She eventually breaks the youngest servant, Cedra, with her infatuation for Garin, and tries to send a letter with her to Lord Franklyn Fowler, but Cedra never returns after that, and as the days pass Arianne stops eating, until she is almost too weak to rise. Finally Hotah comes for her and summons her to see her father.
Prince Doran looks worse than she remembers. He asks her why she did it, and she tells him it was for the honor of their House, and that his weakness in the face of Oberyn’s murder shames all Dorne. Doran tells her Myrcella is not dead, but Darkstar sliced off her ear and permanently maimed her face. He says Arianne has dishonored all of them, and endangered all of Dorne, which cannot stand against a war with the Iron Throne. She demands to know who betrayed her, but Doran will not say. He tells her that her friends have been dealt with far more mercifully than they deserved, and shames her for seducing Ser Arys to abandon his vows. Doran says Ser Balon Swann is being delayed as much as possible in his journey toward Sunspear, but eventually he will arrive, and he asks Arianne what they should tell him. Arianne says to tell him Arys died defending Myrcella from an attempt on her life by Darkstar, but Doran asks what will happen when he asks Myrcella for the truth.
Arianne realizes he needs her to convince Myrcella to fall in with their story, and asks why she should help him. She accuses him of trying to get rid of her for years, by attempting to marry her off to old men while he sends her brother Quenten off to Lys in secret. Doran claims there is no plan to replace her with Quenten, and she tells him she saw the letter where he promised Dorne to Quenten. Doran insists he always meant for her to inherit Dorne, and deliberately chose suitors for her that he knew she would not accept, for she had been promised long ago to another. She demands to know who, but he says it doesn’t matter, as the man is dead, from “a pot of molten gold.” He says he sent Quenten on a journey to “bring us back our heart’s desire.”
She narrowed her eyes. “What is our heart’s desire?”
“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.”
Commentary
Oohhhhkay…
So, this is all kind of oblique, but there’s not much doubt who Arianne’s betrothed dude who died via “molten pot of gold” is, and all I can say to Arianne is WOW, girl, did you dodge a bullet. Although, I get the distinct impression that Arianne would probably have eaten Viserys for breakfast.
Metaphorically. Maybe.
For sure she would not have put up with his shit for long, I think. And if for some inexplicable reason Arianne herself failed to put him in his place toot sweet, one of her Sand Snake cousins probably would have done it for her. Which is why Dorne is probably one of the more awesome places in this whole ASOIAF world as far as I am concerned.
But aside from that, this is definitely interesting in that it tells us (or retells us, possibly, but it’s been a while since we went to Dorne so shaky memory is shaky) that Doran is (or was) angling for a Targaryen return to the Iron Throne, and to ally Dorne with them accordingly, and has been playing footsie with the Lannister-Baratheon contingent strictly as a decoy tactic in the meantime. Sneaky!
But then Viserys went and got himself gilded, literally (eek), and so I guess as a backup Doran sent his son Quenten to… do something regarding Dany. Woo? Capture? Offer her alliance? Steal her dragons? Dance like a monkey? Something else I’m not thinking of?
Well, whatever it is, he’s going to have some competition, because it seems that everyone and their dog is after Dany at this point. Generally the phrase “sucks to be popular” is employed in strict irony, but in this case I think it applies rather more factually than otherwise. Watch your back, girl.
I get why Doran kept this all a secret from Arianne, who seems to regard her life as more of a college sorority party than as SRS BZNS Real Stuff Happening, but even so I can’t see how he couldn’t have known that it would eventually seriously backfire on him to keep her in the dark to that extent. Because that’s exactly what happened as far as I can tell. She’s your heir, dude; either clue her in or admit that she’s too flaky and oust her from the V.P. spot, but you can’t have it both ways.
Also, wow with Cersei’s kids catching zero breaks, ever. Poor, poor Myrcella! Having an ear cut off, owwwww. Not to mention the shit she’ll get for the rest of her life for not being “pretty” anymore. Ugh.
It will be interesting to see whether she will actually go along with Arianne’s cover story, or just be like “FUCK ALLA Y’ALL” and tell what really happened the moment Balon Swann shows up. I know which one I would go for, but I am not a recently mutilated underage princess bride, nor do I play one on TV, so my personal reaction is probably not the best metric to use in this case. Sigh.
And who did betray Arianne, anyway? She’s so adamantly against the notion that it could be any of her childhood friends that I instantly suspect them more than anyone, but I think that at this juncture I do not have enough information to move my speculation on the matter out of W.A.G. (Wild Assed Guesses), so I will decline to speculate further for now.
I’m not even sure it’s important, anyway. I mean, obviously it’s important to Arianne, but as a reader I’m not really seeing why I should care, except for morbid curiosity in speculating how Arianne might very messily implode if it really does turn out to be one of her bosom buddies who ratted her out.
But this entire Dorne thing is honestly giving me a little trouble in engaging my Care-O-Meter. Not because the “who tattled on Arianne” mystery is not interesting, but because it’s not quite as interesting to me right now as following what’s going on in the rest of Westeros. I can’t stand Cersei, for example, but I am agog to see what misstep or political ploy finally brings her down. And so forth and so on.
But, at least this was one of the less upsetting “title” chapters. Although now I’m slightly disappointed that there wasn’t at least a tiny Rapunzel joke in there. Heh.
And this is where we stop. It’s a little short, I know, but things is a little cray-cray in the House of Leigh at the moment. Hopefully everything will be un-crayed by next Thursday, which is when I’ll see you next! Cheers!
Feel no obligation to continue the series on our behalf.
You owe us, your readers, nothing.
Lack of talking/communication, what is this, Wheel of Time?
I am actually with you on the Cersei chapters – my favorite parts of ADWD were the Kings Landing/Cersei chapters simply because I really want to know what happens and have a kind of train-wreck attitude towards all the intrigue.
That said, Dorne is definitely my favorite setting and I think they are going to be involved in said intrigue soon enough.
Man, when I read that last paragraph for the first time, it was one of the legit “shivers” moments in this series. Maybe it was just me, but Doran’s whispered reveal of (a part of, at least) his long game was perfectly done.
“Fire and Blood,” indeed.
@1, we all have our favorites. Tyrion was among mine, but so was Cersei’s slow self-destruct.
I’m glad you are liking Dorne, Leigh, they quickly became my favorite people in all of Westeros too. Now you know why Oberyn is so awesome! It really makes such a huge difference when you don’t place all that importance on bloodlines and male primogeniture, huh?
Yes, Doran failed hardcore when he didn’t bring in Arianne from the start, but the whole “I always meant for you to inherit” isn’t quite true when you then are told he planned to have her wed Viserys, because she would be Queen by his plan, and that meant Quentyn would one day rule.
I personally love this chapter title. Both of Arianne’s chapters have reflected that she still has a LOT of growing up to do. She may be in her early twenties (23 or 24, I think?) but she seems very naive, especially for one in her position, which is why I guess Doran kept her in the dark so long. Last chapter, she was all excited to be the “Queenmaker”, comparing herself and her companions to the heroes out of her childhood fairy tales. Now she’s in her own fairy tale, as the “Princess in the Towr”, and it’s not exactly as romantic or glamorous as she hoped.
While the action in Dorne doesn’t seem at this point to be connecterd to what’s happening in the Riverlands or King’s Landing, I still like these chapters, Leigh, so I’ll disagree with you on that score. I much prefer being in Arianne’s head to Cersei’s head, at least. And Prince Doran continues to be awesome, even if he was backing a rather questionable horse when he hoped to marry Arianne to Viserys.
I loved his little reference to the Sand Snakes being “the terror” of the gardens we saw at the beginning of the book. Just picturing a Sand Snake knocking lemons off trees with a morningstar is an awesome mental image.
One nitpick, Leigh: Prince Doran was, in fact, planning to give Dorne to his son, just as Arianne feared, but that was because she was promised to Viserys. So her fears were not groundless, just misguided. She is his true heir again, but until recent events, he was in fact planning on giving Dorne to her brother Quentyn. Perhaps Doran erred in not revealing his plans to Arianne until now, but it’s understandable, given how naive she was.
All of the above? *sniggers*
@6, But it’s the terminal question though isn’t it? We went over this a bit with Cersei, is how much of Cersei’s failure as a ruler came about because she was never groomed and taught to rule, instead she was groomed to be a Queen, in a world where being queen means “having legitimate babies”.
How much of Arianne’s naivete came from the fact that for much of her life Doran assumed she’d be a Queen, not a ruler.
Dorne has been angling for the Iron throne for awhile. Doran is very upset with the Lannisters cause young Aegon, his Nephew, would have been King after Rhaegar had Robert’s Rebellion not happened and the Mountain hadn’t killed the whole family. There would have been a Dornish King of the Seven Kingdoms. Now he seems to be Angling to put his son on the Iron throne as maybe King Consort while his daughter rules in Dorne. Doran is playing the long hand in the game of Thrones.
Aryanne would actually get more power than Quentyn (that’s how it’s spelled, IIRC) when she married Vyserys, because she’d be queen of all Westeros. So, in a way, she’s getting less now. Her brother will still be above her in the hierarchy if he marries Daenerys.
Looking forward to hearing Dr. Bashir utter those words.
@11, I can only hope he is half as good as Pedro Pascal was.
I loved how this chapter played out. The neverending nothing happening while Aryanne waited for her father to call her. The decisive handling of the other conspirators (note, by the way, the call back to a few chapters ago when Qyburn tried to tell Cersei of these developments and she didn’t care to listen). And the big reveal that Doran wasn’t the wimpy wimp that his daughter and nieces view him as but a consumate player of the long game who seeks to ally with the Targs and take out the Lannisters fully.
Really interesting to see what the next move will be. You’ve already been advised that Quentyn has a role as part of Plan B, but what are the other components for Aryanne and the Snakes? Fascinating stuff. I’m all in.
There is something about this exchange that seemed intersesting to me when I first read this chapter, and became more apparent when on re-reads. It’s that Arianne is much less invested in the concept of avenging her aunt Elia than Doran or Oberyn. She sees it more as a means to act to secure her own, somewhat fanciful, political ambitions.
@10 Having power in Dorne in her own right would make her a more powerful force in the politics of Westeros then the consort to a monarch. Sure, she might be able to become a regent of her children but she would have to rely on “soft” power rather then the “hard” power by being the ruling princess of Dorne.
And Doran is yet another noble father who screwed things up with his children. Well, with his daughter and heir anyway. Though, at least he clearly loves her and vice versa. If she was supposed to help Viserys gain his throne and keep it, she needed _more_ training and experience at ruling, not less. Oh, well.
In any case, unsurprisingly, Arianne, like any strong-willed and impatient medieval crown prince, has tried out her wings by rebelling, and yea, she is naive, but it doesn’t mean that she is hopeless. She could yet turn into a Prince Hal figure, after receiving this valuable life lesson, which I knda hope for, because after Lysa and Cersei we have had enough inept/crazy female rulers, IMHO.
@15 We’ve also had the Mormont ladies, Asha, and Dany (though, granted, Dany hasn’t shown that she’ll be a good ruler yet). I don’t think there’s a dearth of strong female leaders in ASOIAF, no more than there’s a dearth of strong and likeable male leaders. Most of the female AND male leaders are unlikeable in some way (Robert, Joffrey, Balon, Euron, Roose and Ramsey Bolton, LF, Tywin, etc…, in addition to Cersei and Lysa). Arianne could turn out either way, hopefully she has some of her father’s cunning and patience.
I’m getting the vibe that there are those in the comics that think Arianne was not properly raised as a ruler. She has her own agency and should probably take possession of her own screw us. Doran’s only screw up is not telling her about the betrothal to my eyes. Just looking at her comfortable tower cell and we see two thing. That chess like game Cyvasse (that Doran told her she should have studied) and a large number of books on various topics hint to me that he has (A) a belief that she can think for herself and (B) was given the opportunity for an education.
Isilel – I like Arianne and have hopes for her – guess we’ll have to see where things go in ADWD and beyond, eh?
@3
Yeah, I’m actually kind of surprised at the “meh” reaction to this chapter. It was a seriously kickass reveal/confirmation to me.
Leigh – Care-o-meter should be way up. This is first proof of (roll over for spoilers) a Targaryen-Westeros conspiracy to boot Baratheon/Lannisters off the throne, which is unlikely to be a good thing for Cersei. The fun thing is that Dany does not appear to be aware of any of this. Who is? What is Doran planning and who will help him? How does Quentyn fit in? Now that Arianne is in, what about the Sand Snakes – can they be trusted? Etc.
(Moderator note: whited out possible spoilers)
Hey, look, there is a post today! There was no link from the Index, so I wondered.
Ah, yes, the Princess in the Tower. That Fire and Blood moment was pretty awesome. Still, while Doran wasn’t to know Arianne had read that letter many years ago, he was stupid to think he could throw multiple obviously unsuitable suitors (heh) at her and not have it alienate her. Walder Frey, really?
Also, the Lannisters keep getting pieces chopped off them. Tyrion’s nose, Jaime’s hand, Myrcella’s ear. Eeek.
I have to mention the Fowlers again. In the first Dornish chapter, Lady Nym mentions she was “abed with the Fowler twins” when she heard about her father’s death. Now, when Arianne is going over places she might seek support, she thinks of a Lord Fowler whose twins Lady Nym is “famous friends” with, and later Doran mentions that Nym keeps no secrets from them. Finally, their names are then mentioned – Jeyne Fowler, and her sister Jennelyn. I just can’t help but love that in Dorne, the only reason anyone has a problem with a polyamorous relationship between three women (with no man in sight) is that secrets might be told that should be kept.
The first time I read the series, my Care-O-Meter for the entire Dorne series of chapters was pegged at 0. I couldn’t be bothered to learn the houses or follow the machinations. On the second read through, I was more involved, but still afraid Martin was veering into a dangerous swamp of expanding the universe uncontrollably for little coherent reason. Boy was I wrong.
(roll over for possible spoilers) Then I watched a series of youtube (obv. spoiler-laden) videos that attempted to suss out exactly what Doran and Oberyn had been up to ever since Elia’s murder. It may be bunk, but if it’s right, there’ve been clues and plans Martin laid in place from the very first book, and we’re only seeing it play out on the page now, because of Martin’s strict adherence to POV.
So, on my current re-read, I’m paying more attention, and finding it much more captivating.
Hey @22, can you post a link?
Just include a spoiler warning in the link if you don’t mind.
And the big reveal that Doran wasn’t the wimpy wimp that his daughter and nieces view him as but a consumate player of the long game
I’m far from ready to describe Doran as a “consumate player”: he failed to tell Arianne the plan; marrying her to Viserys would have ended….. poorly; it was insane to send Quentyn to Dany without prior negotiations; I see no evidence that Doran is aware of other potential allies.
I’m not a fan of the Dorne chapters, and can’t really see this one as a “game-changer”. But the “Fire and Blood” moment is a great one.
Also, the Lannisters keep getting pieces chopped off them. Tyrion’s nose, Jaime’s hand, Myrcella’s ear.
I’m thinking there may be a metaphor in this. Death of a thousand cuts for Lannister power.
I’m down with Leigh’s last paragraph. When I was at this point in my first read, I was pretty sure that this whole Dorne thing was going to be one big dead-end sideshow. Maybe it would have some small impact on the major story arc, but not enough to justify the amount of screen-time it was getting.
In my chapter reordering to make Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons happen more-or-less in chronological order, I made sure to end the first part with this chapter. It’s a great closing line…
Straw poll:
Who would make a worse king, Viserys or Joffrey?
Let me clarify – Doran certainly believes he is the consumate player. Whether he is in fact remains to be seen. he has has experienced some poor luck along the way. Certainly not good luck that the Targ his daughter has been promised to since birth was a psycho. Certainly not good luck that his daughter tried an ill-thought through plan to crown Myrcella. Have to see how this plays out.
He is certainly a patient player, I’ll give him that.
@28, ooh, tough one! I’m going with Joffrey, because I think he was more sadistic than Viserys. The other bad qualities that I can think of, they shared in equal measure, just about.
@31, Yeah, Joffrey actually GOT the throne, so we have something to judge him by.
With Viserys, if he’d been raised to rule, might have turned out better. It really seemed to be anger and bitterness over their situation is what did the damage with him.
@32. Aeryl
I agree that Viserys would make a better leader in that it did not really matter how people treated Joff, he was still a super dick. I get the impression that Viserys would still be a turd, but not a violent one if people treated him with the respect he felt he deserved. He was kind of dumb though, maybe even dumber than Joff.
It struck me as odd that Doran was obviously in cahoots with someone to wed his offspring to an exiled Targ, but this far along in the series there has been no indication of such a conspiracy, and we still have no idea who the other party is. (It doesn’t matter if Doran wants to marry ArIanne to VIserys if there is no other party to uphold or promote that betrothal.) As it is, the plan with Quentyn seems to be a crap-shoot, more of a fall back since Viserys got his “crown.”
I must be in the minority, because in reading AFfC, whenever I’d come upon a Cersei chapter I’d always think, “Oh, gawd, not another episode of Real Housewives of King’s Landing.” Slow-motion train wrecks hold no morbid fascination for me. Let’s just be done with it already.
Chapter 40-The Princess in the Tower:It is Arianne of course. Most of the chapter was a nice case study on the effects of solitary confinement for extroverts. Along the way we learned a bit more about Arianne and spoiled princess comes to my mind. While she is not insane like Cersei, Arianne certainly has an entitled view of herself. But, as nobles in Westros go, she seems to have the possibility of being semi-decently above average.
The reveal at the end was quite interesting. Dorne had been planning on wedding her to Viserys and still has plans of some sort for her brother and Dany.
All in all, I like the Dornes better than the Ironborn and since GRRM seems intent on expanding the scope of the story to encompass all of the various plotters, these chapters are interesting from that aspect.
I think despite his statement about fire and blood, Doran doesn’t really want to fight. Originally, he made a plan involving Viserys which would not require him to do anything for years. Then, when the civil war started, he passed up the opportunity to get involved. And even now he is trying to delay fighting by covering up the events.
For him, the time will never be right to actually attack.
Minstral @14: Well, Elia died when Arianne was about six, and she’d presumably been living in King’s Landing for a few years before that (long enough to have two children, at least — I can’t recall offhand when she was married exactly). So Arianne probably didn’t know Elia very well at all.
I think Viserys would have been worse because:
Joffrey really wanted to fight on the front lines. He would have died in the battle for Kings Landing if Cersei hadn’t been able to restrain him. There is a high chance that he would have been killed in some battle within a couple of years even if he hadn’t been murdered. Viserys, alas, cannot be depended upon to put himself in dangerous situations.
It struck me as odd that Doran was obviously in cahoots with someone to wed his offspring to an exiled Targ, but this far along in the series there has been no indication of such a conspiracy, and we still have no idea who the other party is.
Off memory, but wasn’t the deal to marry Arianne and Viserys made long ago, perhaps shortly after the Sack of KL? In that case, I’d assume he made the deal with, say, Willem Darry, who was plausibly Viserys’ guardian.
Doran’s problem is that, having hatched that plan, he did seemingly nothing to follow up on it in the intervening years. This leads me to believe that 36 has it right.
@39
Doran himself considers the notion of waging an offensive war against the Iron Throne to be a suicidal endeavor, and he is not wrong. By identyfing the region is the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms he recognizes that he cannot afford a poor choice on which wars he fights in.
Highlight:
Considering that Viserys was so eager to come into his kingdom in the first book, what would have happened when he crossed the Narrow Sea thinking he could take back the throne with only Dornish support? If he had crossed with the support of the Dorthraki as intended then Dorne probably would have risen against the new Baratheon regime, if he arrived in the guise of the begger king Doran would probably clasp him in irons and send him to Robert.
@40: Certainly Dorne can’t take on the IT by itself. That would be foolish. I don’t think that’s what people mean by criticizing Doran for his caution. As 36 says, you sort of get the impression that Doran thinks “never, under any circumstances” would be the proper time for military action. Maybe he’s right about that — certainly everyone else in Westeros seems to think force is the first, last, and only solution (hammer, nail). But right or wrong, he has a deserved reputation for caution, which makes his ringing words at the end ring, well, hollow. I love them nevertheless.
Regarding Prince Doran and his “caution”, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss him as someone who never acts, as Arianne does. Remember, he said he was supposed to send Arianne to meet Viserys in secret, but her mother forbade it. While in the long run that might not have made a difference, it’s possible that Viserys would have exhibited more patience if he knew that he had allies in place in Dorne (or, alternatively, it’s possible he would have gotten them all killed by trying to start a war without proper military support). And yes, (roll over for spoilers) it was William Darry, the Master-at-Arms in King’s Landing, who protected Dany and Viserys when they were young and presumably signed the marriage betrothal between Viserys and Arianne (stated in Dany Chapter 3, GOT).
Doran is cautious, yes, but he has good reason for his caution. As he pointed out to Arianne, Dorne is the least populous of the seven kingdoms (and how could SHE not have known that?) Doran made some mistakes, but I don’t accuse him of never acting or not being serious about his plans to destroy the Lannisters and Baratheons.
I would just like to say that anyone who calls himself Darkstar needs to be kicked in the nuts.
“I fucked him, father.” When Lysa said that about Littlefinger, her father forced an abortion on her and married her off to an old man. Martells do it differently, eh? Granted, Arianne isn’t pregnant (as far as anyone knows) and has already been repeatedly offered to old men…but she had the choice to refuse them. Then again, Doran just married Spotted Sylva off to an old man for her part in the mini-rebellion; he claims it wasn’t a punishment, but she may feel otherwise.
Yep, Myrcella can join Brienne, Sandor, and Tyrion in the Facial branch of the Maimed Characters Club of Westeros.
If Arys really did throw himself at the axe to escape from his shame, he might be the first character to commit suicide purely to escape from life (as opposed to attempting to kill or save someone). We’ll never know.
Being out of state and away from regular internet access, I’m selfishly glad that you only covered this chapter this week. And glad you got something out of it, instead of just “Arianne stews in grief and fury for a while, confronts her father about his ‘failures,’ and gets a hint of his true plans,” which is basically what I got the first time.
One thing that always puzzles me is the willingness of underlings to mistreat heirs at the behest of their aged, infirm parents.
If the person on the throne is not going to be there much longer, doing nasty stuff to the person who’s going to inherit and may then decide to string you up by the thumbs and lower you -very slowly- into a tub of boiling oil seems -really shortsighted-.
Especially if the heir says something like: “I’m going to be in charge in a while, and I’m keeping a list of anyone who torques me off or harms anyone I like”.
Far more sensible to either dodge the job if you can, or do it half-heartedly and with private assurances that you’re Really On Your Side, Your Highness.
Mind you, people do committ errors like that. At the court of Franz Joseph, the protocol-master was repeatedly and grossly rude to Franz Ferdinand’s wife Sophie, even though FF was known to be a vindictive bastard who never forgot a slight. If FJ had kicked the bucket before 1914, the protocol-master would have been well advised to run for Argentina and change his name.
Arianne would actually get more power than Quentyn (that’s how it’s spelled, IIRC) when she married Viserys, because she’d be queen of all Westeros.
I wouldn’t agree that the Queen of Westeros has more power than the Prince of Dorne, who is after all Lord Paramount of one of the Seven Kingdoms. Do you think that Cersei, while Robert was alive, had more power than, say, Ned Stark or Tywin Lannister?
There’s a very good (but long and spoilery) discussion of Doran Martell here:
http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/tag/doran-martell/
Between the Sand Snakes and Arianne, I got the impression that child-rearing (particularly for girls) was more laissez-faire than the rest of Westerous. With no mother and an infirm father, Arianne seems to have had free-reign. I don’t blame Doran for keeping secrets from a spoiled sorority-girl. She could easily blab devastating secrets to a lover or drinking companions. The fact that she chose to pout and feel sorry for herself instead of learning Cyvasse and reading the books proved Doran right in my mind. Making this failed plot as painful as possible might wake her up.
As for Doran’s willingness to fight, I’m sure he was counting on an alliance with a Dorthaki horde. No reason not to think he has an excellent spy network to tell him he may now be fighting alongside Unsullied and dragons (the Queens of Martin’s battlefields). Why tip his hand before they arrive?
I think one of the greater weakness of this novel is that as interesting and well written as the events in Dorne are, our hearts are already invested in what’s happening in King’s Landing. It’s almost as though the Dorne stuff would have been a lot more successful in a separate novel (or series) entirely.
I’m a huge, huge fan and admirer of GRRM but I think he’s suffering from the same affliction that hits every uber successful writer at one point or another: He’s so popular and makes so much money that the editors lose their power over him.
It’s really tricky because I love the Dorne stuff (this chapter especially) and I can see where it does contribute to the overall plotline. But I don’t think it helps the story in the sense that the reader (especially the more casual one) suffers. There’s simply too much going on, and our hearts aren’t with these new characters in the same way.
Anyway…just thinking out loud. I’ll shut up again now. :)
I have to agree with 47. Nothing in what we’ve seen in Arianne implies that she could keep a secret from someone whom she trusted. “I’m planning to marry you to the surviving eldest son of the previous ruling family so as to bring about the return of the deposed family to overthrow the usurper,” seems like to sort of plan you want to keep very closely held until you’re ready to put it into play.
I think that Arianne’s misunderstanding of Doran’s actions is mostly her own fault. She read a phrase from Doran’s letter that led her to believe he might be plotting to disinherit her in favor of Quentyn. So why not, you know, ask him what the hell did he mean? He is your father after all. Instead she just broods over it for years, gets crazy jealous about her own brother and hatches an incredibly risky scheme to counter something she doesn’t even have any information about, except some highly unreliable rumors.
And yes, she doesn’t really care about vengeance. The Sand Snakes do, and as we now know Doran does too, but not Arianne. The reason she attempted to start the war against the Iron Throne was to gain support of the dornish people (who wanted war) to overthrow Doran to “claim her birthright”. She is driven by ambition and jealousy but not vengeance.
Also dornish (westerosi?) idea of vengeance is crazy. All the people who had anything to do with Elia’s murder (Tywin, Robert, Gregor) are long dead, yet they continue to plot to overthrow the Lannister/Baratheon dynasty. Cercei is a horrible person, but how can one blame her for Elia’s murder? Or Tommen who wasn’t even born yet at that point? Or how can anyone be blamed for Oberyn’s death except Oberyn himself?
Doran’s plan reminds me of the very first dornish chapter when we met the Sand Snakes. First Obara sais: “They killed Oberyn. Lets start a war now and kill some Lannisters to avenge him!”. Then Nym speaks: “No, i have a better plan. We don’t need to fight a war, we should just go to King’s Landing and poison Cercei, Jaime and Tommen!” And then Tyene speaks: “I have an even better plan. We crown Myrcella as queen to provoke them, and when they come to Dorne to fight us we kill them all! mwa-ha-ha-ha!”
Doran then correctly points out that vengeance is pointless, because Oberyn died in lawfull trial by combat, and puts the Sand Snakes into prison. But now it turns out that he doesn’t really think that way, he is just as crazy as the Sand Snakes, he only has an “even better” plan for vengeance: “We will make an alliance with the dragon queen, bring her to Westeros with her dragons and kill them all with dragon fire! mwa-ha-ha-ha!”
@51 – Doran doesn’t want vengeance for his brother. He correctly notes that Oberyn entered that ring voluntarily.
He wants vengeance for his sister and her children. They didn’t sign up to be raped and murdered by a monster working for a manipulative asshole.
Yes, but he wants to avenge the murder of Elia and her children by bringing down Cercei and Tommen. Both of them have nothing to do with the murder, the people who are actually guilty (Tywin and Gregor) are already dead. So vengeance is extended from the person who is actually responsible to his entire family, a concept that I find crazy. (But it is probably only realistic for this pseudo-medieval culture.)
@52: Nope. Elia was given in marriage to the future King of Westeros, with the understanding that her son would then inherit the throne.
Thus giving Dorne a better foothold on influence. Rather than just being the kingdom with the smallest population.
So, yes, both brothers morn and miss their sister who was murdered in a horrible way. But, I think, part of it is also the miss opportunity for Dorne and power. Even if that is not one of their conscious drives.
And the Sand Snakes? They as a lot, are just crazy. Well the eldest ones are. the 8-6 year old have not had time to become crazy yet.
@53: Ever heard the phrase “Sins of the Father?”
So yes, they are now blaming and holding responsible people that had no direct involvement with Elia’s murder.
Very realistic as well for some cultures, like Arabs. One of the inspirations for the Dornish, according to George Martin, were the Palestinians. So the population clamoring for revenge, and wanting it on people that are relatives to the ones that did the deed, is very similar to the blood feuds seem in that region among Bedouins (and that kind of spread to almost all Arab culture).
Dum butlab dum (“blood begets blood”).
“dum” means “blood”?
I’m suddenly looking at “The Little Drummer Boy” in a whole new light.
Yeah, the whole “rum pum pum” thing is crazy. Think body parts.
@45: If you actually took that approach, it would be just your luck to end up stuck in the end of Henry IV part 2, where the new King Henry commends the Chief Justice for being hard on him when his father was alive and confirms him in post because he has shown he can be fair, while at the same time banishing his old friend Falstaff.
Either that or the current ruler catches you dodging their orders and serves you your own son for dinner as a punishment.
Underlings just can’t win.
Ellaria pretty much points this out in one of the previous chapters, if I recall – where does it end?
Regarding Doran’s revenge, I agree that part of it is also due to them wanting their ‘due’ – the old dynasty back (and a possible Dornish heir) and the implication that anybody who is supporting the ‘new’ dynasty is still illegitamate and deserves to be overthrown.
@59- It doesn’t necessarily end. The Starks had the Boltons under control for thousands of years, yet it turns out that old hatreds still existed.
@59 IIRC the phrase quoted in the first paragraph is from a future chapter in ADWD, not a previous one. So it is a (minor) spoiler.
@48: I disagree. Though it was difficult to get invested in these characters at the beginning, I was hooked by the end of the first Dorne chapter, especially because of Doran Martell and the Sand Snakes. But we spend the rest of these chapters with Arianne, who is not uninteresting, but her friends certainly are. It’s the same with the prolog in Oldtown: very interesting stuff, and I couldn’t wait for Sam to get there and meet those new characters again (especially the one we already knew). But we’re almost at the end of the book, and Oldtown is nowhere in sight.
The problem in this book is that we see the action from the point of view of people who don’t know what’s happening: Littlefinger and Doran Martell were seen very shortly, and Varys not at all.
@62 – A big problem I had was that without Oberyn Martell, our introduction to Dorne was somewhat anticlimactic. Oberyn was an outsized presence, and no matter how interesting as Arianne and the Sand Snakes are, it’s a bit disappointing to have to start over with them instead of continuing with him. Worse, our introductory POV comes from… Areo Hotah – a man largely defined by his relentless dullness. And then followed by Ser Redshirt.
Spoilers obviously for those on the read pace, but the Meereenese Blot has done it again, in regards to the Dorne story, if anyone finished with ADWD wants to go check it out.
I think Dorne will have a larger part to play in the overall storyline. Like others have said, Doran is very patient and willing to play the long game, so I think there’s more going on than maybe we’ve seen (or realized we’ve seen).
I’m looking forward to seeing more folks from Dorne in the HBO show next season; Oberyn didn’t really come alive for me until I saw him on the show, and then I really understood his character a lot more. I expect the same will happen for the next round of folks for me.