Welcome to the final installment of the Malazan Reread of the Fallen! In this article, your hosts Bill and Amanda look back over the reread and share their thoughts on the entire series (with Amanda, new to the Malazan Empire, going first). Obviously this post will contain spoilers for the entire series, so beware! Join the discussion in the comments, and keep track of the previous comments here on our reread spoiler thread.
Amanda’s Whole Series Wrap Up
Oh heck. Bill has written five pages of considered and clever words for his series wrap-up. FIVE PAGES!
I have no idea what to write. Seriously. I guess I shall tell you the story of this reread for me.
It’s that long ago that I don’t know if you remember this was originally supposed to be a reread for Bill and Stefan Raets – two people who had read the series a number of times and wanted to go through it again in depth for Tor.com. Bill, Stefan and I were all reviewers for Fantasyliterature.com at the time and, when Stefan unexpectedly had to drop out of the reread, Bill asked other Fanlit reviewers if they were interested in taking part.
At the time I was an upstart young book blogger, trying to make a name for myself and get involved in the community, and I said yes, without thinking about it. I knew it was a series of books I wanted to read and, honestly, how hard could it be? I also found out I would be paid for every post I made, and basically my day was made – being paid to read fantasy fiction? What a dream, right?
And then we started the reread.
And I (sorry, Steven, don’t look) HATED the first few chapters of Gardens of the Moon. I genuinely thought about pulling out of the reread, because how could I possibly engage with TEN novels of this dense, wordy, confusing writing that didn’t tell me ANYTHING. I didn’t know who these characters were, I had no idea what events we had fallen into, and what the hell were warrens?
I was a reader used to being handheld through fantasy, used to my authors not trusting me to make it on my own and giving me everything I needed to immerse myself. Suddenly I felt like I did when I first learnt to swim – terrified of drowning at every point.
But I didn’t drown then. And I didn’t drown in the reread either (thanks a great deal to Bill, and being able to read his wise commentary and summaries). I was nudged in the right direction when I got completely lost and sometimes allowed to splash merrily in the shallow end to help me get my confidence back up if I’d been through a troublesome section.
Also? I didn’t realise how much work it would take. Truly. For a normal chapter post, I will spend at least four hours on it. For a post where I have to do the summaries as well, it gets even longer. This was never easy – it was something I had to fit into my week all the time. And, as someone who soon took on a job as a slushpile reader and then as an editor, it meant my life involved a lot of activities that took up a lot of my time. But I’m not whinging. Because I know what Bill juggles, while still fitting this reread into his life. And he has been an absolute hero for taking on the bulk of the chapter summaries.
Anyway, partway through Gardens of the Moon, something changed for me. I wasn’t understanding it much better, but I was learning patience and trust. And that is the first point I want to make in terms of what I have taken out of this series: I now have a lot more patience when reading novels. I allow a story to unfold. I enjoy language for the sake of it. I appreciate the building blocks of story. Erikson gave me that.
I then discovered my affection was growing for certain characters. It’s Anomander Rake for me, back then and now, and forever. He became the character I waited to see on the page all the time. His first entry into the series still sends shivers down my spine. When we see him as the mighty dragon in the last convergence of Gardens of the Moon, I was beside myself with love. You know you always have that character who, no matter what else happens, never get displaced from your number one spot? He’s mine.
And that is pretty incredible to say in a series that has such dominant, memorable and fantastic characters. All written in shades of grey; all with realistic reactions and motivations; all with moments of humour and tragedy.
And so we eventually reached the end of Gardens of the Moon, and embarked on Deadhouse Gates, and I was lost to this series. I cried at a book for the first time in a long time. I recognised the sublime storytelling, that was building in layers. But before all of that, I was frustrated anew at Erikson – new characters? What about the old characters who I loved? Who are these new characters and how can I possibly love them as much as the ones from…. oh, I do love them. I love them hard. I am crying for their lives and what they achieved.
Personally, as an army brat, a lot of the military aspects of these novels absolutely resonated with me. I don’t think I’ve read soldiers written as accurately as I’ve seen here. When I was in the audience of a panel where Steve spoke about his favourite novels, it came as no surprise to hear that they were more military in focus, particularly books dealing with Vietnam.
The gallows humour of these soldiers; their frustrations with their commanding officers; their attitudes to children (protecting them above all) – all of it was something I’d experienced while living the military life over in Germany. For that reason, the novels became very special to me.
During the time we have worked on the reread, I took up the position of editor as Strange Chemistry and, more recently when that came to an end, become a freelance editor. And I can safely say that Erikson’s writing has helped me be a better editor. For one, it has allowed me to take a lighter touch when required in some edits. Or recognised that particular storylines might not seem to fit immediately into the novel, but that, when taken with another plotline, are absolutely crucial.
Over the years I’ve been reading Malazan, I have been to a number of conventions and been a panellist a few times, and it seems that, no matter the subject, I have been able to bore at a world class level on exactly how the Malazan novels achieve what other fantasy novels don’t touch on. I’m on a panel about how classic myths can be utilised in fantasy? Malazan. I’m on a panel about how sex is portrayed in fantasy? Malazan (with the added extra that rape is not used as a gratuitous method of punishment, but is considered, and the consequences are represented). On a panel about magic systems in fantasy, and how there never seems to be anything new? Malazan.
When on panels about the quality of writing, and choice of words, and challenges in reading – I hold up Malazan.
Worldbuilding. Writing technique. How history can be presented in fantasy novels. Subverting tropes. Grimdark AND nostalgic fantasy in one series? All of this happens with this stunning series of books.
Yes, I have bored many, many, many people with my passion for these books. I’ve quoted from them. I’ve told other people they HAVE to read them. And I’ve put down money for the first three Subterranean Press special editions (yes, they’re gorgeous. Yes, I hate myself a little bit for not being in time to get House in Chains, thereby ensuring I will NEVER HAVE A FULL SET). Why did I buy these special editions? Because the books are special. Because the reading experience is special. And because this re-read has been fucking special.
Yep, I come to our motley gang of commenters. Without you cheering us on, Bill and I would not have had the same fun. Without you arguing, and discussing, and shedding light, and presenting possible new theories, I would have been reading in a vacuum – and that would have been terrible when dealing with the Malazan books. They are made for books clubs, for discussion, for sharing, as far as I am concerned. So I thank you all for your contribution.
Lastly, a few favourites:
- Favourite character: Anomander Rake
- Favourite Bridgeburner: Fiddler
- Favourite duo: Tehol and Bugg
- Favourite funny character: Kruppe
- Favourite tragic character: Beak
- Favourite dragon: Silchas Ruin
- Favourite god: Cotillion
- Favourite frustrating dick: Quick Ben
What do you mean, that is just a cunning way to get a whole heap of favourite characters, rather than just having to pick one?? I can’t do favourites, I’m afraid. Just know I love every part of every one of these books.
Bill’s Whole Series Wrap Up
Wow.
Thank you and have a good night.
OK, I’ve been informed by our Tor.com overlords that if I expect a check this week, I can’t just write “wow” for my wrap. Bastards. All right, all right. So, I’m going to start off with just a few things that make this one of the pre-eminent fantasy works. Because if I don’t stop myself at a few, this will run on forever. But boy, am I looking forward to this discussion in the comments.
Character, character, character.
Character is almost always what grabs me in a book and holds me throughout. And I absolutely love these characters. They are so well drawn, so vibrant, so rich in detail, and they offer a spectrum of traits to charm you (even if it’s a kind of snake-like fascination/repulsion charm)—complexity, humor, thoughtfulness, and, what makes so many of them stand out for me and makes them integral parts of the theme of this series—compassion. The roll call for me begins with Fiddler, Cotillion, Itkovian, Rake, Tehol, and the list goes on and on and on. But what makes them stand out amongst favorite characters in other works is the sheer amount of time we’ve spent with them. Think of it—from GotM to here, we’ve traveled what, 8000 pages or so with these characters (varying on format of course)? That’s a heck of a long time to spend with a group of characters. Over so many years and so many pages, you begin to feel like you’ve been on the march and in the trenches alongside them. And of course, when you lose one (or more), or when they suffer some kind of loss, you feel that ache as well.
But then, it isn’t just the long-standing characters you ache for. I’ve said many times that I don’t know many, if any, authors who can make me feel the pain of losing a character I’ve known only for a handful of pages (maybe Guy Gavriel Kay). So short-form and long-form, I’m with these characters all the way, wholly invested.
As for a favorite, it’s nigh on impossible. Cotillion perhaps. Maybe Fid. Or Tehol. Possibly Shadowthrone, if only for his singular line about “Acceptable levels of misery and suffering!… Acceptable? Who the fuck says any level is acceptable?” Hmm, let’s throw them all in there, call it my Top Five Favorites, and let the fifth spot rotate amongst a slew of characters depending on mood and memory: Quick Ben, Rake, Beak, Mappo, Gruntle, Iskaral Pust. Do I want funny? Do I want sad? Do I want thoughtful? Do I want brooding? Oh, the options…
Theme? We don’t need no stinkin’ themes!
“Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the world. It must be given freely. In abundance.”
Oh, I love this theme, and its siblings: sympathy, empathy, justice, redemption, sacrifice. Start to finish it is expressed in so many ways—imagery, symbolism, action, dialogue, structure (what does a multiplicity of POVs do but almost force empathy upon the reader?). It drives the plot, it drives many of these characters, it permeates every book, every nook and cranny of this series, and one hopes it drips, drips, drips into the consciousness of every reader.
To everything there is a season.
How many times are our characters marching over the bones of another civilization? Crunching through broken pottery, walking over deserts that were once seas, climbing over ruins? I love the way time/history is used as a constant backdrop. And I can’t help but nod sadly at what often comes with that background—the idea that we just don’t learn from our history (Kallor of course being the seeming embodiment of that, as somebody I believe once told him if I’m recalling right—“you never learn”? Sound familiar anyone?). My own read as well on this (well, let’s face it, I’ve got no pipeline into Steven’s head, so this is all my own read) is that what this scope of time is telling us is that our in a very big, obvious way, our lives, our achievements, our tragedies, are all “meaningless” in the grand scheme of things. This too shall pass, after all. Pass and be wholly forgotten. But then, if one accepts that, then perhaps that is how we find—despite its seeming contradiction—that therefore every one of our moments has significance, every one of our acts, our petty cruelties and our moments of humanity, of compassion. That’s what I’m going with at least; I suppose, as Fiddler says of Hedge, I’m an optimist that way.
Never trust a historian.
How many times have we learned in this series to not trust what we “know” of the past? How many times has that knowledge been overturned? Think of the “history” of the Imass-Jaghut War that we get early on. Or of how Mallick Rel (I hate Mallick Rel) twists the history of the Wickans.
“The past is never dead. It’s not even past.” –William Faulkner
A somewhat different take on the time/history theme, I’m thinking here of how the series portrays the reality that we are all products of our pasts (personal pasts and social/cultural pasts) and haunted by them regularly. I know people complain at times about the dead-not-being-dead aspect of this series, but I love it. I think it fits in the world-building first of all, so I’ve got no problem with dead coming back in a fictional world where that thing happens. But I love the way it mirrors what happens with our own dead—they never leave us. You don’t get “over” someone close to you dying. You might move “on,” but you don’t move “past” because that person is always right there with you. Hedge is the great example of that. But you can go down the entire list of characters obviously. Beyond that aspect, I also like how actions reverberate down through the ages, or, more literally in the reading, through these pages. Too often I read books and series where it seems the author has forgotten events; it’s as if they’ve never happened a few hundred pages later. But life doesn’t work that way, and this series is one of the best in portraying that.
War? What’s it good for?
My favorite war book of all time (and one of my favorite books of all time) is Tim O’Brien’s The Things They Carried. This series is my second favorite war book of all time, and the one that comes closest to capturing that (I’m assuming, since I’ve never been in war) soldier’s sense of the world. This is a grunt’s book, regardless of all the high and mighty figures that roam its pages. It’s not the Lord of the Rings; it’s the Book of the Fallen. And fall they do. And some rise again while others do not. But time and time again, we’re put in the heads of the common soldier and shown how none of them is, in fact, “common.” We see it all—the horror, the bonding, the boredom, the cruelty, the compassion, the absurdity, the complexity. What’s it good for? Nothing if it’s a genocidal war waged by one side only (Yeah, I’m talking about you T’lan Imass). But what about when it is to protect the innocent? It’s a wonderfully thoughtful exploration of this subject. And the hell with those who complain about all the deep thinking that goes on—I’m keeping my philosopher-soldiers, thank you very much.
The things we do for money. And power. And money.
I’m looking especially at you Lether. I loved the portrayal of that culture, its vicious take-down of our own society. Anyone tells me fantasy is “escapist” (something I just saw yet again in another “literary” review) and I’ll just nod my head and think of Tehol in his city of birth and think to myself, “Is it you’re too arrogant to acknowledge it, too ignorant to see it, or too lazy to bother looking for it?” As a corollary to Lether, I also like that the series doesn’t fall into the easy trap of portraying the “old” cultures—the pastoral ones, the pre-industrial ones, as inherently somehow more ethically/morally “pure.”
Ya gotta have faith.
It’s long surprised me how little significance/place religion has in many fantasy books (and I say this as a card-carrying atheist/apathist). Such a significant force in human history, and yet so often it is either wholly absent, portrayed in simplistic stock form (bad, bad white-robed fascists!!), or acts as mere window-dressing on the world-building. But too often people don’t discuss it, they don’t question it, they don’t interact with it, they have no relationship with their religion, their priests, their gods. Well, you certainly can’t say that about this series.
The power of Story.
We see this at the very beginning with Duiker—a historian and we see it at the very end with the Crippled God vowing to write a Book of the Fallen. Stories matter in this world, stories have an impact (for good and ill), stories are corrupted, stories inspire. What better theme for an author, eh? And what better character to drive that theme home than Kruppe?
Variety is the spice of life.
What a rich palette of creation we get in this series. Not your grumpy underground dwarves and lithe elves. Not your kitchen boy who is really a king. Not your basic horse people. We’re handed a slew of cultures (no surprise from an anthropologist) and of races. We’ve got our Andii, our Liosan, our Edur. Not one but two K’Chain sorts (made even richer by how they aren’t painted as typically “reptilian” but more insectoid in ways). Urban cultures. Nomadic cultures. Warrior cultures. A range of human sorts roughly akin (maybe) to our bushy evolutionary background. We’ve got our Soletaken and D’ivers. A plethora of gods. Zombie warriors. Funny Jaghut. Rather than a typical medievalist world, we’ve an odd mix—a move toward technology (the horrific imagery of a mechanized/industrialized warfare—the horrors of WWI come to mind), but also some sci-fi’ish kinds of things from the K’Chain Che’Malle. We’ve got several horses we care for via their characters. Stick-men. And dogs!
These are the jokes people!
Tehol. ‘Nuff said. (Though I could say lots more.)
Metaphor become real.
I’ve mentioned this multiple times, so I won’t belabor the point. But swords that scream! Chains that bind! A character who can literally never learn from his past! (OK, I’ll stop). Characters whose inability to forgive made them walking dead! (OK, I’ll really stop)
Turnarounds, slow reveals, overturned beliefs, and playing against tropes.
So many times we thought we knew something only to have it pulled out from underneath us. Jaghut bad—Imass good, for instance. Crippled God—uber-villain. Or we are given the usual surface tropes—dark and light—only to have them go the opposite way of expectations. Or we’re thrown into the middle of things and only slowly is the reality of the situation revealed—how many times have we noted that if the reader is simply patient, what was obscure will eventually become clear? (most times, not always, I’ll grant you). I loved the intellectual stimulation of all this.
Foreshadowing, call backs, and full circles.
We’ve mentioned a few from GotM. I think if you look back at Deadhouse Gates or Bonehunters you’ll see some neat parallels. And oh, the brick-building and foreshadowing. Here is a small, and I mean small, sample of items we filed away (and I’ll end with that and see you in the comments!)
Memories of Ice
Crone telling us the Ravens “have been honorable guardians of the Crippled God’s magic.” Then later Korlat telling WJ the ravens “carry with them fragments of the CG’s power.”
She half-believed this man [Karsa] could cut a swath through an entire pantheon of gods
“This family [the Paran family] so at war with itself.”
“Trust in Tavore, Ganoes Paran—your sister will salvage the House… Trust in your sister.”
Gruntle’s line in these musings, “why anyone would be interested in worshipping the Tiger of Summer is beyond me.”
“Your army will follow you into the Abyss, should you so command.”
“Fener was as good as dead… like a babe on an altar. All that was required was a knife and a wilful hand.
House of Chains
Tavore agrees, then asks Pearl about the Talon. He says they no longer exist and when Tavore challenges his honesty, he admits they do, digging in deeper whenever the Claw try to root them out. Tavore says they do serve a “certain function,”
To Cotillion about the Crippled God: “You should have stuck a knife in the bastard right there and then.”
“a low altar… Some lowlander god, signified by a small clay statue—a boar, standing on its hind legs. The Teblor knocked it to the earthen floor, then shattered it with a single stomp of his heel.”
“The power of your stone arrows”
On a tangent, he mentions the Forkrul Assail: “saving us the bloody recourse of finding a Forkrul Assail to adjudicate, and believe me, such adjudication is invariably bloody. Rarely indeed is anyone satisfied. Rarer still that anyone is left alive.
Bonehunters
Fiddler carrying a child in a line of marchers, some doing the same. Save that image.
Reaper’s Gale
Did Sinn find salvation in sorcery? Shard held no faith that such salvation was in truth benign. A weapon for her will, and how far could a mortal go with such a weapon in their hands?
Dust of Dreams
Perhaps the strangest group of warriors Paran had seen was the Gilk. Their hair was cut in stiff, narrow wedges and they wore armour assembled from the plates of some kind of tortoise.
Amanda Rutter is the editor of Strange Chemistry books, sister imprint to Angry Robot.
Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.
I found this (re-)read when it had already been going a while, because I had just read something absolutely hilarious that Karsa Orlong had said, and I thought “Ah, ya gotta love Karsa Orlong”. And then I thought, I wonder how many other people have uttered the same exact words, so I googled, putting it in quotes to avoid any juxtaposing of my carefully worded thought, and it led me to this read. I mean, (re-)read.
And THANK GOD because I’m not a big re-reader myself (understatement alert) so without this read I never would have caught all the millions of little details that made this series so rich for re-readers, and so opaque and confusing for first time readers. I totally agree with Amanda that this series is best read by a group. And this group has been totally awesome.
And I’m looking forward to continuing with the other books as yet un (re-)read. But I have to say at this point, that I do have one single, favorite line in the whole series. And I was surprised that it went completely unmentioned by either blogger or any commenter. Unfortunately, I can’t remember which book it’s in, and the line, by itself, doesn’t seem all that special. It’s the context in which it is spoken:
“He is the first sword.”
Anyone else know what I’m talking about?
::Slow clap::
I’ve never read a series where I’ve said “Oh ___ is one of my favorite characters!” about so many different people. And I’ve meant it about every single one. That is the best praise I can offer.
This is a series filled with so many good characters that you grow to love within a few pages.
I could probably list 25 names right now and I would still be leaving out some of my favorites.
I found Tor.com when Google pointed me to Jo Walton’s fantastic reread of the KKC. I had heard of MBOTF, but when I saw Tor had a reread going a couple of books in, that was all I needed to know.
I bought and read GoTM. Not unlike Amanda, I was put off by how the book started. The tone and the language felt distractingly
grandiose. I was constantly lost, wondering if I had missed or misread something. There was a huge cast (not an issue for a ASOIAF vet), and the characters felt indistinct. It was hard to keep everyone straight.
Then I finished GoTM. The we’ve used in this reread is convergence. I don’t know that the word quite does each book’s ending justice. I can’t say I understood it, but I was sold. I turned around and bought the rest of the series, ICE’s Malazan books, FoD, and the novellas… I’ve barely been able to squeeze any other reading in.
It’s been a fantastic ride. I greatly appreciate the work put in by Bill and Amanda, and for getting Steve to chime in at the end of each book. It has made for a reading experience unlike any other I’ve had.
This has been a blast! I found the original Raets/Bill thread and waited and then I started posting on Wednesday, July 7 2010 at 1:57pm EDT. Never looked back (actually I’ve looked back a whole bunch of times as the threads continue to live on with new people finding them).
The summaries and commentary of Bill & Amanda have been great. The many commenters have been excellent. Steve has gone far above & beyond in engaging with us all here.
The books are fantastic in every sense of the word. A fantastic accomplishment.
Anomander Rake, Quick Ben, WhiskeyJack, Icarium, Fiddler are probably my favorites. But, as Bill says, that changes as moods and pages shift.
edit: (I’m going to get asked elsewhere, so — do we have a plan for the rest of the books of ICE & SE?)
@5 – Ha! I didn’t think anyone would even remember that. I’m so glad Amanda was able to take on this project with Bill after I had to drop out before it even got properly started. I’ve followed the re-read with great interest over the years (although I’ve been peeking through my fingers for the last few months because *whispers* I still have to read TCG…)
@6:Smile.
As already said before, the re-read enhanced the reading of this wonderfull series at least tenfold. I can’t imagine TMBotF without it!
Amanda, Bill, congratulations on a job well done and thank you for your commitment.
I hope to see you on the other side of TMBotF into OST, B&B, Assail and beyond! ;)
Thank you everyone, especially Bill and Amanda. You have enriched this series for me a thousand fold.
Has anyone listened to the audiobooks of the series (Brilliance Audio; read by Ralph Lister)? I like audiobooks for re-reads, if they’re well done, but a bad reader can be deadly!
I have listened to all ten of the audio books. Some of them were read by Ralph Lister, and others not.
Ralph Lister did a good job, and I appreciate his careful enunciation of the names and titles, and he gives a subtle and nuanced reading.
Michael Page did some others, and I preferred the readings of Ralph Lister. However, apparently Page consulted with Erikson on the pronounciations, so they are different from the ones Lister used. I like Lister’s better, even though they aren’t Erikson-approved.
Summary Answer: Lister is fine, and so is Page.
However, my personal favorite was John Haag, an American reader. His readings of the MBOTF just seemed to be a deeper and more soulful interpretation of the work. He also seemed to be enjoying the book in an intellectual sense and portraying the ideas rather than putting on a performance. These recordings were older, and are extremely difficult to find. To get Haag as the narrator for most of them I had to use methods more acceptable to the Bridgeburners.
Last spring, I was looking for a good fantasy or scifi yarn to break up work and while the time til the next Song of Ice and Fire. I fortuitously encountered the MBotF. It looked interesting, but I was leery. One of the things that intrigued me was a review that stated that Erikson turned the epic fantasy genre on its head. I love epic fantasy, but it generally seemed to fit the stereotype of a reactionary genre that had special appeal during periods of political reaction (with honorable exceptions – Guy Gavriel Kay comes to mind).
It soon became clear that Steve broke with this perspective, and, indeed, turned it upside down. Nevertheless, I confess to some early disappointments: rampant magic! In a fantasy! How dare he! The characters seemed somehow superficial, almost iconic, and altogether too changeable. Little did I realize what kind of character and plot development Steve would unroll in the next nine books (something like 7200 pages?) The sheer length of the series permitted a writer of Steve’s caliber to create a world of incredible depth and scope, down to the finest details. And it permitted a writer as deeply committed to OUR world as Steve is, to express our common, felt, social and personal issues as credible elements of his world. The personal is just as political in Wu as it is in the USA.
I have rarely, if ever, encountered a work or a writer whose experiences (and interests) resonate so strongly with my own. Just to give a few rather superficial examples, as an evolutionary biologist, I was rather tickled when the corpse carter in Darujhistan expounded on molecular genetics and when Samar discussed co-evolution. As an environmental activist, I appreciated Steve’s environmentalist subtheme, and particularly the way he drew out the connections between the environmental and the social. And I found his portrayal of military life totally believable, based on my own experience.
If MBotF was a fortuitous find for me, so was this reread. Beyond the fact that the clarifications were invaluable to a sometimes hasty reader, such as I can be, I was hugely impressed by the commitment of both the moderators and the participants to this work, all of whom had clearly made an enormous emotional investment in this work and were in it for the long haul. And didn’t this in itself embody something of that feeling, that compassion, that sharing – that witnessing – that Steve expressed in his work?
@11 Thanks, Wilbur. I’m holding on to my last cusser, so I’ll go with what I can get at Audible!
I’d also like to add my thanks to Amanda and Bill for the reread. I started GOTM when the reread was (I think) into Midnight Tides, so I was pretty much able to go through the reread of the book I’d just read while reading the next in the series (though I didn’t read the ICE books until I’d finished MBOTF). I hope you’ll be able to continue with the ICE books and the Kharkanas Trilogy (+?) as it comes along.
@bill — just to nitpick, because nitpicking is fun; you said that Kallor never learns. While that is sort of accurate, I feel like there’s a bit more going on: Kallor does learn, but he can’t change. He knows exactly what he is and he hates himself for it, but he doesn’t know how to change himself. I love this characterization because it turns him from just someone we hate because he’s a dick into someone we can almost sympathize with, and also because there are so many people in the real world who are just like this. Who want to change but don’t know how.
That was all. Loved reading your post (and Amanda’s too, of course).
After this wonderful series i feel completely spoiled on other fantasy: nothing else just seems to live up to this brilliant piece of work. And thanks so much to Bill, Amanda, and everyone here! You all bring out so much that helped this lurker to get more out of this series.
Re: Kallor –
That bit about Kallor never learning is a quote from a conversation between Kallor and Caladan Brood. (Kallor rants and raves about been there / done that / got the t-shirt and asks Brood if he understands. Brood says the ‘yes. you’ve never learned’ line. I’m not sure if it appeared in the actual text of MoI or if we got it in flashback or a chapter heading.
Oh no, I do realize that’s a quote from Memories of Ice. I just wanted to give my two cents in regards to Kallor because he’s one of my favorite characters and I haven’t seen much discussion surrounding him (granted, I may have just missed it).
Just caught up after starting in March 2014. What frustrating timing! There have been so many times in this re-read that I have wanted to comment, but been years or months too late. At least I’ve made it to the end in time (just about). I’ve been both a re-reader (up to TTH and ROTCG), and a first time reader (from SW through to TCG). So I really want to thank Tor, Amanda, Bill and all the many commenters for this re-read series, and of course SE and ICE for the books and their contributions here.
In the last few weeks, so many others have eloquently put into words why this re-read has been so wonderful, that I simply can’t find much to add to what’s already been said. I’ll just say that even something as powerful, deep and resonant as MBOTF has been immensely improved by the opportunity to share it with others, and to improve these books is a very tall order indeed. So from my heart, thank you all. (salutes with fist to chest)
It’s impossible to pick out my favourite bits of these books without running to many pages, but for me there have been two quotes that have stood out in a crowded field of powerful ideas, perhaps at least in part because of the backdrop against which I was reading. Both of these are rooted in the central motifs of compassion and empathy. One is, as Bill mentions above, Shadowthrone’s quote:
“Acceptable levels of misery and suffering!… Acceptable? Who the fuck says any level is acceptable?”
Given the events going on the world this year, this has resonated very powerfully. And equally so this exchange between Duiker and Lull in DG:
“Children are dying.”
Lull nodded. “That’s a succinct summary of humankind, I’d say. Who needs tomes and volumes of history? Children are dying. The injustices of the world hide in those three words.”
As I listened to the news of tragedies around the world; as I watched, dismayed and appalled, as the western world dithered and delayed in responding to the Ebola epidemic, or the crises in Syria and Iraq (and many other places besides), I heard those three words in my head: “Children are dying.”
The ending of TCG is still whirling around in my head, and there’s so much more I could say about this series, but this has already been a long post. I can’t think of any other books that have torn my heart to such shreds and yet left me so profoundly uplifted. After 8 months with this series, I think I need to find something light to read next, but I hope this re-read will continue on, and for the next books I hope to join you all on the journey, rather than arriving right at the end.
Thank you again, Amanda and Bill, and all the wonderful commenters (too many to name, but just as important), for taking something wonderful and making it shine even more brightly.
PS. Tabbyfl55@1 Re. the “He is the first sword.” quote. Possibly Lady Envy talking with Lanas Tog about Tool in chapter 22 of MOI?
“I don’t think he holds a grudge, Lanas Tog. I suppose, thinking on it, that makes him unique among the T’lan Imass, doesn’t it?”
“He is the First Sword.”
….
“Well!” Lady Envy ran her hands through her hair. “I think I’ll head down and stare into a wolf’s miserable eyes for a time! Just to improve my mood, you understand. You know, at least Tool had a sense of humour.”
“He is the First Sword.”
Muttering under her breath as she made her way back down the street, slippered feet barely brushing the icy cobbles, Lady Envy only paused when she reached the entrance to the house. “Oh! That was quite funny! In an odd way. Well! How extraordinary!”
I learned about The Malazan Book of the Fallen, when somebody on the old rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan newsgroup posted very praising reviews of GotM and DG there. I bought those, and was sold.
I have no idea how often I have read each book, especially the older ones, but I keep finding them enjoyable to read, and some of the moments keep emotional even after so many reads. Especially the Chain of Dogs and the sieges of Capustan and Coral come to mind here.
I was already active on tor when the reread was announced. Imagine my joy. Over the years I have really enjoyed the way Bill and Amanda handled this, and the discussions and insight in the threads here. SE and ICE chiming in as well, and seemingly enjoying to do so was great. That all makes this reread a very special experience, one I do not think has been topped here by other projects (without being disrespectful of those).
So, I’d like to seize this opportunity to thank everybody involved here. Of course we are not done yet, but this seemed a good moment to say this. :)
So I first heard about the MBotF about when DG was released. A friend told me to read GotM, as it was an interesting new voice. I checked it out, was interested enough to start the second, and and after hitting the halfway point, found myself reading unstoppably for the rest of the day in a break room when I should have been working, only to be completely in tears by the finish. I am not often emotional over books – GGK is one of the few to regularly do so (case in point River of Stars which I just finished yesterday. Gah. That was supposed to be the recovery from TCG!) – but bursting into tears in a public environment was definitely a first for me. Since then I’ve read and reread DG till it fell apart, waited on every new book with a standing reservation and on arriving in the UK I made a rare exception to my no hardcovers rule, and picked up everything since TTH onwards in HC (Boo, no good local libraries any more).
The Malazan books are not easy going, they aren’t comfort reading, and they aren’t in any way shape or form escapist.
However they are for me a really good way to get my head in order about how I view the world, to consider the use of language more in writing, and to simpy admire the sheer craft that has gone in to producing them.
I don’t know how I first found the reread – I came in part way through DG I believe – but I’ve loved the interplay between all the commenters over the years – we’ve played off each other so well, and I know I’ve made a lot of connections I wouldn’t have necessarily got on my own.
Not to mention the number of times I’ve read the summaries and gone “really? when did that happen!” despite having not only read the book before, but even reread that particular chapter just then, and STILL missed it.
So a big big thanks to both Bill and Amanda for their dedication to the reread, a huge round of applause to all who have contributed along the way, and heartfelt appreciation to both Steve and Cam for providing such a glorious, tragic, magnificent, terrible and unbelievably satisfying contribution to my literary knowledge.
I’ll even let them off for sneaking the suck fairy into half my library in the process ;)
Wow. The end? No….I fear there will be many more rereads of this series throughout my reading life.
This really is the ultimate series. I am so spoiled now. SE does character better than anyone else that I know, and his discussions of history, events, religion, morality, etc. etc. set this series head and shoulders above any others that I have read. Light reading, no. Important and thought provoking, yes!
And thank you to all of the commentors. I have fallen away the last book and a half, as Life got in the way, but I’ve been reading along. This is a good series for a group discussion, because there is SO much! And you all are so wise.
Thank you Bill and Amanda!!! What a lot of work. And I do appreciate your summaries Bill, and all the insights from you both. Wonderful.
And great thanks to Steven and ICE for jumping in with their always insightful words. What a treat.
Thank you all.
what do you mean: series wrap? What about ICE novels, FoD etc? I hope these are in the queue too!
No worries, shed.
This is a wrap up for SE’s malazan books only. The rest is queued in.
In fact, OST is next.
@Mayhem (#19): They’ve neolibbed all of the local libraries? Wow! Time to get Tehol Beddict in there ;-)…
@23 – I moved from NZ to the UK in 2008 – my local libraries here are pocket sized and aimed at the mass market reader. I don’t think any of the purchasers are strong genre readers, so I’ve pretty much given up on them for finding much new. There was quite a strong battle recently over closing them though, so at least they still exist.
Unlike back home, where the librarians reliably ensured that the network had enough copies of all the latest SF&F books as soon as they were available. It’s really true how you don’t consider something as good until it isn’t there any more.
Hi everyone,
Just wanted to give a quick note that I appreciate all the kind words on here, and I’m hoping to jump into some of the discussion. But a dear, dear friend/mentor of mine passed this week, and I haven’t been doing much, well, of anything. But I didn’t want to just ignore all that’s been said. So thank you and I hope to respond more fully and energetically in a few.
Bill
I’ve followed this re-read from the start… hoping to understand this magnificent ( & frustrating ) work of art better. So much to learn, comprehend… never again will I let anyone say that Fantasy is not Literature. Never really posted through the journey, but here at the end, I find I must bear witness.
Truly Extraordinary.
Many thanks to all the commentators – trying to grasp the meaning so often had my head spinning, and the insights that so many of you shared made it so much richer ( side benefit of reducing some of the spinning ).
Amanda & Bill – wonderful job.
Hats off,
Simoquin
I have mixed feelings towards the series. It’s great but it often left me puzzled, despite reading it with the help of this re-read.
I don’t criticize the scope – but I regret that we had to leave so many characters “by the wayside”. My trouble to adapt I realize, has a lot to do with my “expectation” that the first people you meet are likely the main characters – and tMBotF displays rich characters, but we don’t really stick …
Often it “hurt” to leave characters, but I’m glad I got to meet Tehol.
The re-Read has been a huge help, thank you Bill and Amanda for your comments and the humour in the summaries.
And it’s been great that the authors themselves joined us – not only in the Q&A but sometimes even in “normal” posts. Wow.
@bill, I’m sorry for your loss. We know you longer then just a few weeks, so we know you’re not absent without reason. So I don’t think anyone will feel ignored while you have to deal with the more painful aspects of Real Life. Take the time you need…
I’m going to put in my final thoughts on the series later, but here I’ve got some figures to start:
– According to Wikipedia, publication from first to last book took SE 11 years, 10 months and 14 days. He needed 3.3003026 words to tell his tale of the Fallen (couldn’t be 26 less, of course).
– From first post (minus introductory post) till this last it took our reread 4 years, 3 months and 25 days.
– That is, 254 regular posts, excluding the Q&A’s and ICE’s books (I half and half thought for some time about counting the words in the summaries and analysis of Bill and Amanda, to compare it with the books itself, but seeing how many posts that were, I got tired before starting so I skipped that part ;-))
So, quit impressive, I think :-).
Oh, and for those that have already submitted their Q&A-questions so haven’t looked there recently…
Steven has already answered 16 questions in the Q&A-thread!! Will be continued. :-)
Already some interesting answers, yay! For example about Hetans’ resurrection and whether Tavore knew/knows she killed her sister (didn’t expect to get that one answered).
@17 thank you, yes I’m pretty sure that’s it. After being accused of having no sense of humor, Lanas Tog deadpans the most subtly-humorous line in the series for me. It’s stuck with me through the whole rest of the series. But now that I know where to look, I’m gonna go back and find the whole scene. Er, later tonight.
Now it’s time to race to the Q&A thread, thanks @29.
@bill – Sorry for your loss. Our thoughts are with you.
Thank you again Amanda, Bill and all the commentators etc. for making this a special and personal experience. Thanks as well to Steve for answering my questions. I asked little and you gave me so much more in return.
With my own re-read I am following the earlier posts and comments and realise the dedication of all involved. I’ve also started reading Night of Knives but it is going slowly as no audio books are available for that series. I would volunteer to read them but the only female voice I can do is Smurfette and I don’t think the world is ready for that picture.
If this was your first read. Do yourself a favour and do a re-read. You WILL be pleasantly surprised and I am now certain that Steve made that possible and knew it would also be rewarding.(If that doesn’t convince anyone, think of reading Tehol and Bugg again)
A million thanks to Bill and Amanda and I’m terribly sorry for your loss Bill. If there is anything that the Book of the Fallen teaches us, it is that we are all in the family of loss, all broken by something, and all of us have grieved in our hearts. If we look upon our brothers and sisters in that manner then we cultivate the flowers of compassion and empathy and that can only lead to good things.
Many have said how their lives were changed by this series and I am no different. The Malazan Book of the Fallen taught me so many things about people and the way we think, they way we feel, our desires and our fears. the complexity that SE introduced me to helped me to realize and understand and then dive into, the complexity of our own world.
I think I probably re-read what there was of the series at least four or five times before this re-read started. I had been introduced to this series in a mish-mash of a way, and actually ended up reading DG from local library before i happened on a copy of gardens of the moon in a lost and found bin. i’m sorry to whoever it was that lost that book, they might have missed out on something great, but i like to think that the lure of Malazan led them to find Gardens again, perhaps in another lost and found.
to see a series come full circle like this in my lifetime (of reading fantasy at least) is pretty special. almost like watching some massive infrastructure project be completed from your kitchen window over the course of a decade. if there were a massive project i would compare the book of the fallen with, it would probably be the panama canal or hoover dam. absolutely world-shattering in the impact it has had on those who’ve experience it.
Its hard to explan those feelings as well, since they are almost larger-than-life in the swell they create in my heart. The Fall of Coltaine is a brand seared on my soul. Capustan and Kallors Betrayal a punch in my gut. The death of Felisin will forever haunt me with its wretched irony. The firestorm of Y’ghatan and the Stormcrawlers survival is a clarion call for joyful ressurection. Rhulad’s final death marks me with quiet, thankful sorrow. Anomander’s sacrifice humbled me with amazement, and the horrors Hetan faced give me resolve to fight against indifference and cruelty. The entire finale of Tavore’s ambitions (and I guess Quick Ben’s, the arrogant bastard ;)) was a roller-coaster ride of breathless, sweaty pandemonium, that all turned out pretty good in the end. The Book of the Fallen will someday stand next to William Shakespeare and JRR Tolkien in our collective minds, and it will deserve it’s place.
Thank you all, and good night.
(Until the next ICE novel! and then the Kharkanas trilogy! oooh! and Karsa’s trilogy! I forgot to mention him!)
I have a confession to make… I haven’t actually been reading along with you guys at all! This whole time! I’ve just been reading the summaries and pretending I was keeping up! The horror!
An amazing experience and fantastic work, both by SE and Amanda & Bill.
I’ve loved the recaps and the comments. Perhaps the greatest praise I can give is that I couldn’t possibly have re-read this series without this forum. I make a habit of re-reading my favorite books but this series was just to powerful for me to pick up again without some support. So thank you to everyone involved for helping me get there.
Instead of favorite characters I will go with something different, characters I hated and charaters I’m just not sure what to think of.
Hated:
Mallick Rel
Tanakalian
Erastas
Unsure about:
Kallor
Blistig
Laseen
Kilava
I cried, I sat befuddled and annoyed, I laughed.
I threw books across the room (never ever ever has a fiction book brought up that reaction!)
I carefully put them away between books so that I could read them all again when new ones came out. (How many re reads is that! Still I found things in this re read that had entirely escaped me….)
I’ve owned 3 copes of Garedens of the Moon as the first ones got worn out and fell apart on me.
I rage, argue and sulk when reading (mostly in the same places…)
My Mother, who got me reading the series eons ago, died before the end…. that makes me very sad. She so enjoyed the ambition, scope and sheer storytelling mastery of the writing. As I do.
I inhereted her hardback copies, minus gardens of the moon which fell apart and was replaced in her collection by a paperback…….
These books have taught me to speak of war from compassion for the suffering of those who fight, those who loose loved ones in the fight, and to keep in mind that dead is dead and nothing in our world changes the pain of that.
Hats of to Bill and Amanda, wow, thankyou for all this time, insight, effort and commitment….
Tufty,
That’s ok. Same here. I started at DoD but just kept reading on. I’m guessing most of the story was in your head already ;)
So I have not weighed in until now. I was completely blown away by the scale and depth of this series. I haven’t read anything else like it. I know I can read it again for a 3rd time and it will still be good, yet again. There’s just so much woven together and the pay off for sticking with it has time and again proven worthwhile. Glad we made it through and even more glad that there is so much left to explore from both authors.
After stalling halfway through Gardens 5 or 6 years ago, I started the series over about 2 and a half years ago. I discovered the reread about halfway through Deadhouse Gates, and faithfully read every post after I finished each chapter. I ran through the books in about a year and caught up to the reread right before Rake and Hood entered Dragnipur. I didn’t realize how much I relied on the reread posts for clarity until I had to forge ahead into DoD and tCG on my own! I definitely missed a lot on my first go with these last two books, and so many of my questions were answered as I followed along with the reread.
I can’t think Bill or Amanda enough, the Malazan series is my favorite fantasy series every and their posts have only enhanced my enjoyment of the books. Also thanks to all the commenters, I avoided the comments until I caught up in fear of spoilers. But now I’m rereading the whole thing for the first time and I love seeing all the connections you guys pointed out that I missed the first time. Can’t wait to move onto the rest of the books.
I’m late replying here, but just wanted to say Thanks to both Bill and Amanda for doing this re-read. It was a highly enjoyable ride, I loved getting both perspectives, and I was amazed to see it come out with such consistency — twice a week, no less! I figured that surely you would burn out doing twice a week at the volume you did, but it kept going. I don’t feel like every recap should be twice a week–it’s a lot of work–but know that I really appreciated your work in doing so.
And obviously, thanks to Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont for providing us with such a rich world to experience.
Will you guys be doing the rest of the ICE books?
These books are a lot like having kids. They are often frustrating, boring, and incomprehensible. They start slow and you have to slog through a lot of shit, but then there are moments of pure magic that make it all worthwhile. They feel significant.
I found out this re-read in March 2012. At that time I finished reading Midnight Tides and I was still confused about this series. I loved the writing, the charachters, the world, the original ideas – a fantasy is about that – but I was puzzled by the vastness of the events and by the many many plots that were not (yet) converging.
The summaries and commentaries helped me to figure out a lot of connections and hints I had totally missed, so since then I went on reading only if you guys had already published the chapter summary.
And here we are in November 2014, after so many pages, feelings, laughs and tears. Having finished TCG yesterday, your posts help me to fill the void left by such a long series. Thank you so much Bill, Amanda and commentators for making my journey in the MBotF so deeper and more and enjoyable.
Look forward for the next novels, also because I.must.not.yet.reread :-D
@@@@@Matt2587469
Yes, that is planned. Orb, Scepter, Throne is up next.
Random question for anyone who might know the answer — I was reading through Crippled God again and Brother Serenity mentions several times a familiarity with Malazans. Anyone know where he got that? Who he encountered? Or does it happen offscreen?
@Kargul
Good question. Serenity was the FA who went up against Rhulad and his brothers in MT, the Ken’ryllah demons drove him off, and he was last seen knocked down a deep hole and being pissed on from a great height.
Prior to that he’d been contained in a barrow near Brous, but by whom we don’t know. First Empire? Jaghut?
Next he appeared beside Reverence at the Spire. how he gets there … who knows, but he may have encountered Malazans on the way.
That’s what I thought. Seems to me he wouldn’t have left the continent after being released from the barrow, meaning the Malazans he might have encountered should be the Bonehunters… which obviously didn’t happen. So, before? I wish I had asked this when SE was answering questions (not that he probably would have answered this one).
So …. OST? anybody?
Bill said it would be after the holidays. So expect it to kick off again in January.
Just finishing OST so I guess I’ll meet ya for Blood and Bone!
Do we know when we’re picking up with OST?
no specific date, but most likely before the end of january
I am experiencing Malazan withdrawal. Bill, Amanda or Tor: any word on if/when this series might return?
@50, 51, 52: Barring any last-minute interruptions, Bill and Amanda should be resuming the Reread next Wednesday (Feb. 4th)–thanks for checking in!
I second GOS! :-D
Woohoo! This break meant I FINALLY caught up! So damn excited to start participating in the comments, particularly for OST and BB – they’re such interesting and (often) problematic books – which means there is a lot to discuss :)
YESS!!
I’ve been checking back everyday like a lost puppy or something.
That’s the best news I’ve heard in a while.
I never caught up in time for this reread, but I just want to say that it’s been amazing, I found the reread during memories of ice (so naturally, I need to reread gotm and dg so I can have as much clarity on them)
I would say my favourite human character is Tavore, she really resonates with me.
My favourite duo is DEFINITELY Quick and Kalam
And my favourite God is Hood
“Son of Darkness, I have reconsidered” is probably the line I’ll always remember from this series
Also Beak :(((((
Sorry for the imperfect English… I have some questions after reading in the original series (I’m Italian)
1.reading TCG came to my mind when in the sixth book Heboric is killed by the Seven Dead Fires … why? Heboric served to free the Crippled God, the Seven are on the side of the Crippled God … then?
2.Now Ublala Pung is the new companion of Icarium?
3.The only purpose Draconus was kill Kilamdaros and Secul Lath?
4. Why Gruntle (or rather Trake) wanted to prevent the release of Eleint? And why Kilava instead wanted the liberation of Eleint?
5. I did not understand the part about T’iam … was materializing? Why? As? From where?
6. What happened at Sandalath and Withal?
7.Fener is back to being a god (if only briefly) because of the prayers of Gesler and Stormy?
8.All part of the Snake have not well framed in terms of purpose in the plot…
9. What will Dassem \ Dessembrae? Do you see them again in Toblakai Trilogy?
Thanks in advance to those who will answer
@59
I’ll see if I can shed some light on some of these.
1) Heboric was linked to the CG via the Jade Hand and opposed via the Otataral one. But he was also a player in a wider game, and at the time was classed as an opponent. I’m still not sure if it was a deliberate ambush or simply wrong place at the wrong time for the party.
2) Yep. Scary thought eh? Icarium is finally free to wander where he likes – he’s no longer under guidance from the Nameless Ones.
3) Kind of. Draconus was brought back into the game by the breaking of Dragnipur, but he was also specifically requested to keep out of the end game by Hood – this was a human play to run. Killing Kilmandaros & Sechul was him acting to tidy up loose ends outside the main sequence and to punish them for interfering. The irony being that the entire cunning plan relied on Korabas being released to free the accumulated chains on the Crippled God so good thing he waiting until afterwards.
4) Gruntle wanted to prevent the Elient getting loose as he knew that would be bad, though not necessarily why. Kilava now, I need to reread that bit. It probably relates to removing the Gods of War from play.
5) T’iam is a giant multiheaded dragon formed from other dragons. Kind of like Voltron in a biological sense. It seems you can’t have many dragons in one place without there being … critical mass. Put too many together, and T’iam will start to form involuntarily from them. The interesting bit comes when talking about the Soletaken and the Blood of T’iam, that’s something we still know nothing about. Hopefully the Kharkanas trilogy will reveal the details.
6) Sand lost her grip on reality from her PTSD related to being a hostage in Kharkanas in the past and the Something Bad that happened to her, presumably the rape that lead to Korlat and Korlat’s return alone is the final straw. She locks herself away in her room with Phaed’s ghost in order that her now dead son Orfantal might still come home. She’s effectively broken now. Withal is now a blacksmith to the court of Nimander.
7) Fener always was a god. He was accidentally pulled down into the mortal realm by Heboric back in DG. Because being in the mortal realm means he was vulnerable to harm from pretty much anyone he spent several books hiding in Lether. He is contacted offstage in the lead up to the finale in order to gain his willing sacrifice to replenish the CG’s heart. Since Gesler and Stormy are among his last true worshippers, their presence was enough to allow him to use much of his remaining power to manifest, and Karsa’s sword did the rest – the idol and the god were linked.
8) The snake is a metaphor made real, It takes a few goes to really grasp what is going on there.
9) Dassem/Dessembrae get their resolution in Orb Sceptre Throne, along with many of the Genabackis plotlines.
I’ll add myself to the long list of commenters thanking Bill and Amanda for this re-read. I see the last comment here was over 6 years ago, in 2015, but I doubt I’m alone in still poring over these posts as I complete the books. A huge thanks to you both and to Tor for greatly enriching the experience of reading these wonderful books.
Words can’t begin to describe how thankfully I am to everyone who was involved in putting together this reread. This was the best books series I have ever read and will forever live with me.