Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 3 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 4 (“Bran”) and Chapter 5 (“Tyrion”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Before we begin, scheduling note: The holidays doth approacheth, and thus so does a hiatus in the bloggination! Especially since both Christmas Day and New Year’s fall on a Thursday this year, because duh. Therefore, there will be no ROIAF posts on December 25th or January 1st, and the blog will resume January 8th. Whoo! Yeah! Whoo!
Onward!
Chapter 4: Bran
What Happens
Bran, Summer, Hodor, Jojen and Meera travel with the mysterious Coldhands through miserable, bitter cold, accompanied by dozens of ravens, whom Bran thinks are Coldhands’ eyes and ears. Summer does not like the way Coldhands smells, of cold, dead meat. Coldhands tells them there are men behind them, foes, and leaves them to travel on to a village on the side of a lake ahead while he deals with them. Meera declares that she does not trust Coldhands, and believes they are traveling in circles. She points out that Coldhands never eats or drinks, or seems to feel the cold, and Bran adds that the scarf over his mouth never frosts with his breath. Bran remembers the stories Old Nan told him about the monsters that lived beyond the Wall, but reminds Meera that Coldhands is taking them to the three-eyed crow. Meera wants to know why this three-eyed crow couldn’t come meet them at the Wall, but Jojen insists that they go on.
They cannot find the village at first, and are in danger of freezing to death, until Bran wargs with Summer to find the place and guides them to it. He sends the wolf off to hunt, and he and Meera try to convince Jojen to eat, worrying about his frailty, but Jojen assures them that this is not his day to die. Bran escapes into Summer to get away from his cold and hunger. Summer encounters a pack of three wolves feasting on the corpses of men, and Bran realizes the corpses are Night Watch. Summer fights the one-eyed leader, forcing him to submit and taking over the pack before eating his fill of the dead men.
Bran comes back to himself to find that Coldhands has returned with food and lit a fire, but does not eat himself, and stays back from the flames. Bran says he saw the Night Watch men and how their eyes had been torn out as by ravens, and demands to know who and what Coldhands really is. Coldhands confesses that he is a dead thing. Meera asks who the three-eyed crow is, and Coldhands answers that he is a friend, and “the last greenseer.” Bran calls him a monster, and Coldhands replies that he is Bran’s monster.
“Yours,” the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer’s song of “Yours, yours, yours.”
“Jojen, did you dream this?” Meera asked her brother. “Who is he? What is he? What do we do now?”
“We go with the ranger,” said Jojen. “We have come too far to turn back now, Meera. We would never make it back to the Wall alive. We go with Bran’s monster, or we die.”
Commentary
…Well okay then.
I just hate it when people give you things, but don’t tell you they gave you things, you know? So rude. Though I feel I should issue a general warning that I will totally break my policy on regifting if someone decides to give me a frozen zombie. Even a strangely articulate and non-omnihomicidal frozen zombie, because WTF, over.
Yeah, I have no idea what is even happening here at this point. Except that three-eyed crow dude is apparently actually a dude as opposed to a mutant crow, which, sure, why not, and Coldhands thinks TEC dude is the last greenseer, which seems odd considering Jojen is sitting right there. Isn’t he a greenseer? Or am I remembering it wrong, and that’s a thing you have to be a forest kid to be?
Maybe Jojen is just a step down from greenseer, like his dreams aren’t quite green enough to qualify. Maybe his dreams are more of a chartreuse, which is a word I am totally incapable of saying without snickering for some reason.
(Chartreuse. LOL)
ANYway, so if TEC guy is the last greenseer, does that mean he’s also the last of the children of the forest, or were the greenseers like a priest caste or specialized group within the kids and maybe there are more out there, but just none with green-tinted vision?
I suppose I’ll find out. MAYBE.
But getting back to Coldhands, seriously, what the hell. Can you rehabilitate frozen zombies? Or fine, wights, since he was apparently a Night Watch guy before he died? Is this going to be In the Flesh, ASOIAF edition? I am confused, yet intrigued.
And then there was all the warging!
Other times, when he was tired of being a wolf, Bran slipped into Hodor’s skin instead. The gentle giant would whimper when he felt him, and thrash his shaggy head from side to side, but not as violently as he had the first time, back at Queenscrown. He knows it’s me, the boy liked to tell himself. He’s used to me by now. Even so, he never felt comfortable inside Hodor’s skin. The big stableboy never understood what was happening, and Bran could taste the fear at the back of his mouth. It was better inside Summer. I am him, and he is me. He feels what I feel.
Eeek. No, Bran! Bad warg! I need you to Google “informed consent” and “bodily autonomy,” like, toot sweet, honey, because No.
Ugh. This is not going to go to good places. Even if I didn’t think warging Hodor was wrong (which I do), the fact that other wargs agree with me is going to be super non-good if Bran gets caught doing it. Or when he gets caught doing it, really, because let’s go ahead and acknowledge the 900-pound Chekhov’s Gun in the room already.
Yikes.
And then there’s this:
But the one-eyed wolf answered with a growl and moved to block his advance. Head. And he does not fear me though I am twice his size.
Their eyes met.
Warg!
Oh, wow, that was totally Varamyr, wasn’t it. Or what’s left of him, since according to warg-lore he should be fading away by now. I guess he got away from Undead Whatshername from the Prologue. Shame.
And Summer/Bran totally pwned him, hahahaha. Awesome.
…Awesome, but vaguely worrying too, since if Varamyr hasn’t completely faded out yet, and if Summer insists on keeping his new pack around, he could cause problems. I’m not sure exactly what kind of problems, but if there’s anything I feel certain about in this series, it’s that there will be Problems.
So I’ll kind of tiredly hope that Summer listens to Bran and kicks his new pack to the curb. Stark wolves before ex-warg wolves, yo! Keep the brand loyalty alive!
And lastly:
By day only half a dozen ravens stayed with them, flitting from tree to tree or riding on the antlers of the elk. The rest of the murder flew ahead or lingered behind.
Um, excuse me, Mr. Martin, but I believe it is a murder of crows, not ravens. A group of ravens is “an unkindness.” Now look what you did! Whole series, ruined*!
(*series not actually ruined)
Chapter 5: Tyrion
What Happens
Tyrion travels in luxury and supposed secrecy with Illyrio from his estate in Pentos to the river Rhoyne, where Tyrion will leave Illyrio and travel to Volantis. Illyrio tells Tyrion of Daenerys’s progress among the Free Cities, and is sure that she is on her way to Volantis after her recent sack of Meereen. He says he would like to welcome the Queen there himself, but that he shall have to rely on Tyrion and “Griff” to do it for him. He assures Tyrion that Daenerys is a true Targaryen, nothing like her brother Viserys, but Tyrion reflects that Viserys was in his own way as much “a true Targaryen” as Illyrio claims his sister to be.
Tyrion is highly suspicious of Illyrio’s motives in supporting Daenerys, and even more so of his claim that he owes a debt to Varys from their youthful life of crime together in Pentos before Varys was recruited to be Aerys’s spymaster in Westeros, but pretends full cooperation to Illyrio. Tyrion thinks of his own childhood fascination with dragons. Illyrio calls Tyrion “a clever imp,” and says Daenerys will need clever men about her to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. Tyrion asks about this “Griff” person, and Illyrio says he is a Westerosi-born sellsword, but completely trustworthy.
He says the Golden Company shall meet Tyrion in Volantis. Tyrion thinks of the Company’s history, founded a century ago by Bittersteel, a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy, after Daemon Blackfyre’s rebellion had failed and his followers had been exiled to the Disputed Lands. Illyrio says Daenerys will be able to give them what Bittersteel never could: a way home. Tyrion wonders what Barristan will think of fighting alongside the Golden Company, whom he had fought against in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.
They ride through Andalos, from whence the ancestors of the Westerosi came, and Tyrion quotes some of the scripture that claims the Seven themselves once walked that land. Illyrio tells Tyrion of his love for a woman named Serra and her death by plague, and Tyrion wonders why the gods would make things like plagues and dwarves. Tyrion dreams of fighting a battle in which he has two heads, and kills Tywin again and then Jaime, and one head laughs while the other weeps. He remembers murdering Shae, and thinks of Tysha as well.
Tyrion closed his eyes to bring her face to mind, but instead he saw his father, squatting on a privy with his bedrobe hiked up about his waist. “Wherever whores go,” Lord Tywin said, and the crossbow thrummed.
The dwarf rolled over, pressing half a nose deep into the silken pillows. Sleep opened beneath him like a well, and he threw himself into it with a will and let the darkness eat him up.
Commentary
Well, at least he wasn’t drunk the entire chapter this time. Yay, progress! Sort of!
Ahem.
But, you know. Reasons for massive depression and shitty coping mechanisms all still completely legit. And, at least they doesn’t seem to be getting in the way of all the very right and necessary paranoia he has about this entire venture. If nothing else, it proves that Tyrion’s instinct to survive has, well, survived, and I am a fan of survival of survival instincts when it comes to Tyrion. Or something like that, except less grammatically heinous. You know.
Entirely justified paranoia notwithstanding, though, for whatever reason I tend to think that Illyrio is actually on the up-and-up here. Mostly, anyway. But then, I have the advantage of knowing just how long Illyrio and Varys have really been Best Conspiracy Buddies, whereas for all Tyrion knows they met last week and are making the rest of it up.
Also, the fact that Illyrio is wrong, wrong, wrong about what Dany’s actually doing at the moment is bizarrely reassuring to me that he is genuinely in her corner. No, I don’t think that makes any sense either, it just is what it is.
What I am highly suspicious of is this “Griff” person, whose name I am not sure I am ever going to be able to type without putting scare quotes around it. Because: “Griff.” Seriously? “Griff”?
No, uh-uh. I am calling fake name shenanigans on “Griff” sight unseen, with no justification other than that I refuse to accept it as a real name. I think I am going to be straight-up offended if it turns out “Griff” is actually this dude’s name. I might even stomp my foot, y’all, I’m not even kidding.
(“Griff.” Jesus.)
Maybe he is… um, the guy. Whatshisguts. Arianne Martell’s brother that she was so suspicious of, and who Doran told her was off to go do… something about Dany in AFFC. That guy. You know who I mean. Though I was under the impression that Arianne’s brother was already with Dany, but given that I can’t even remember the dude’s name I’m taking that impression with a large grain of salt.
Ugh, fine, I’ll go look it up. Quentyn! That’s his name. Let’s hope it’s actually him, because “Quentyn” is about eleventy million times a better name than “Griff.”
(“Griff.” Pfeh.)
I am unclear, from what Illyrio said to Tyrion, whether “Griff” is actually the leader of the Golden Company, or if he is a completely unaffiliated mercenary who will also be meeting Tyrion in Volantis just because Illyrio thinks he’s awesome. I think it’s the former, but the way it was phrased in the chapter confused me for some reason. But since I’m sure this issue will be cleared up the moment we actually meet “Griff,” I’m not terribly worried about it.
Speaking of the Golden Company, nice little bit of continuity there from the Dunk & Egg stories. I don’t think it will be necessary to be familiar with the background there, but it certainly added a nice bit of color.
In any case, whether Illyrio is legit or not, he’s absolutely right about one thing, which is that Dany could desperately use a Tyrion in her court right about now. Continuing to cross my fingers that this meeting will (a) happen and (b) not suck. No mocking my foolish hopes! Stranger things have occurred!
Tyrion’s dream: not symbolic at ALL. Nope, no sirree, no subtext here, move along. Yep.
“Come, drink with me,” the fat man said. “A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say.”
Heh. What, dogs don’t bite in ASOIAF?
“One hears talk of stone men as well.”
“They are real enough, poor damned things. But why speak of such things?”
Eh? Is this a “Starks are wolves and Lannisters are lions” thing, or are there actual people made of actual stone lurking about? As usual, I suppose I’ll find out!
And that’s our show! Have a week, and I’ll see you when we circle back around!
You could argue that the last time Bran warged Hodor was an emergency and that rescuing them all (including Hodor) justified the means. Now it isn’t. The Dark Side of the Force is easy and seductive …
You know, the entire time reading Tyrion’s chapter, I was thinking that of all the adventures and exploits characters in this series have had to deal with, riding across the country with a conniving glutton, where all you do is eat, get drunk, pass out, wake up and do it all over again is about the best possible thing that could happen to a person. A lot of characters in this series would sell their families for that sort of treatment!
The name “Griff” makes me think of Grif from the Red vs Blue web series. When we do meet him, I always have that actor’s voice in my head (with Tyrion as Sarge).
IndependentGeorge@3: Much as I love RvB, that is a painful cognitive dissonance.
Leigh – aren’t you glad we told you to read D and E before starting here? You know about the Blackfyre Rebellion, the Great Bastards (including Bittersteel), and how a whole bunch of them lost their lands and headed off to Essos, some to form the Golden Company. Excellent – cuts down the “What was that again” type of comments.
Dunk and Egg continuity indeed. *Cackles*
Thanks, Leigh.
Bran-Summer totally kicking Varymyr-One Eye was awesome. Then Bran controlling Hodor for shits and giggles was totally not.
I’m still surprised that you haven’t speculated on Coldhands, Leigh. Why won’t he show his face? To me there’s one possible answer that seems to make a LOT of sense, though I know it’s not universally accepted. Since it’s a theory, I won’t post it here, but I did come up with it myself on my first read, so hopefully I’m not crossing any lines by bringing it up.
The Tyrion chapter is interesting particularly for the information on Varys. While Illyrio is not the most trustworthy source, everything he said about his and Varys’ origins seems to jive for me.
Your complaints about Griff make me laugh. You’ll understand when we meet him.
Bran chapter – I felt really hungry reading this, so I scavenged leftover pizza out of the office fridge. Nice pick up on likelihood of Varamyr in the wolf. You are two for two with the cross references (having picked up on the elk in the Varamyr chapter). Re Jojen – he has prophetic green dreams, which I guess is something different from (and presumably less than) a greenseer. But I like chartreuse-dreamer (or simply a chartreusian) if you want to use it. Really nice point on the raven v. crow distinction. I actually had to google that at some point back for the same reason.
Leigh you’re going to have to cease and desist with the “TEC” anagram… Aeryl and I have already established that the proper anagram is “3EC”. It’s totally canon now.
Tyrion chapter – Everyone has to drink – Tyrion quotes “Whereever whores go.”
Nice continuity piece – Bran and Tyrion are both traveling to unknown destinations. Is Illyrio implicitly being presented as some short of analogue of or parallel to Coldhands? Fun to consider. Agree that it is interesting to try to figure out whether Illyrio is on the up and up here. I always have the sense there is something else he is not saying but you can go crazy trying to think that way in this series. Yeah, not enough info here to figure out who Griff is other than a Westerosi sell sword. I could offer informed speculation – but that would be cheating. Ditto re the stone men – can’t say anything.
Meera is in such a tough position, giant stress. She’s so used to taking care of herself and her brother, being the provider and guide. Now, she’s in position where she feels useless, is watching her brother fade.
She would be such good friends with Arya, I feel so sad that they will likely never meet :(
No, if Meera and Arya met up, they would take over the world, and it wouldn’t be as much fun to read as you might think, because the outcome would never be in doubt.
Meerya. I like it!
So, if Coldhands is a wight, he’s definitely not an average wight. The idea of a person’s mind/self being stuck in a dead (though animate) body is definitely creepy. Thanks, Martin! (Nowadays, vampires are so often written as romantic characters that it’s easy to forget they’re the walking dead as much as zombies are.)
I wonder if those Night Watch brothers he killed were some of the deserters from the massacre/mutiny at Craster’s. They are hanging out on the wrong side of the Wall, after all.
Right now we’re at the part I find it hard to talk about, because it’s more about what’s going to happen, than it is about what is happening.
Re the 3EC: That’s one of those mysteries that you have to puzzle out. You may have the necessary information now, but if not you will a bit later.
Also, what Aeryl said.
@7 I’m totally with you on the Coldhands theory MDNY. Also came out with it on my first read of this chapter. What other warging ranger could Coldhands be?
Full disclosure, I’m mainly commenting so I can follow the rest of the comments from my summary page. But I also can’t think of much to say that wouldn’t spoil other parts of the book. You definitely catch more on your read than I do though! I just ordered the paperback for Christmas so I can re-read the book, as I only read through it once when I got it from the library, and fairly quickly.
I am totally incapable of saying, thinking, or reading chartreuse without appending “microbus” and prepending “eleven long-haired Friends of Jesus in a.”
“Dany could desperately use a Tyrion in her court right about now.”
So she could ignore all of his advice too? Maybe sarcasm would work better than logic.
For some reason I kept thinking of Griff as McGruff – the crimedog.
Aren’t ravens a kind of crow? And we have an entirely separate name for a group of them? Weird.
I also was never bothered by “Griff” because of RvB. And because that was the nickname of one of my buddies in college.
Leigh re the person’s name being Griff. It could have been worse. His name could have been Biff.
IIRC, was not “Griff” the name of a character in the Gargoyles cartoon. Somebody that Golliath and crew meet when he has leaves NY and eventually finds Angella?
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
@21:
RvB’s Grif makes for some awesome scenarios for when //they decide to take Storm’s End:
//
There’s just so many possibilities.
@22: I’m pretty sure that he’s the gargoye from London that Goliath goes back in time to save from the Blitz.
@@@@@ 3 I always think of “McGruff” the Crime Dog when reading these chapters. Joffrey had the “Hound” and Tyrion has “The Crime Dog”.
@@@@@7 I’ve never noticed til now on the reread that a scarf is covering Coldhands face. That gives a lot of credence to fanboy theories which I always disregarded as a “yes but why….”
@21 Crows and Ravens may be related, but ravens are known as an unkindness. Martin may have just been using author fiat because murder does sound better and rolls off the tongue easier.
Thanks to the Prologue, we now know that Bran has unknowingly broken two Cardinal Rules O’ Warging: cannibalism by proxy and warging a human. He hasn’t yet been in a wargee’s mind while it had sex…
UNspoiled: “Thanks, CSI: Yourself,” – sarcastic response to Coldhands explaining his black hands
Opening a jar of leeches here, but I’m always surprised when Victarion is rightly despised for murdering his “unfaithful” wife while Tyrion isn’t condemned for murdering Shae. True, Shae brutally threw Tyrion under the bus in addition to sleeping with Tywin, but she was in it over her head and her death pushed him close to (though not over) the Moral Event Horizon for me.
Illyrio is being kind of gross here, too, talking about keeping his dead wife’s preserved hands and how he just barely resisted raping Daenerys when she was practically a child. But I have a soft spot for devoted gluttons, so I forgive him.
It is good to have read Dunk & Egg at this point. I hadn’t read or even heard of the novellas when first-reading ADWD, so this talk of the Golden Company, Blackfyre Rebellion etc. seemed fairly incomprehensible and inconsequential.
@12: My favorite Podcast of Ice and Fire episode featured the hosts envisioning an all-female Small Council, Queensguard, and set of Wardens for hypothetical Queen Sansa. It highlighted the number and diversity of strong, interesting women and girls populating these books, even if many of them haven’t canonically met each other.
@14
While it doesn’t say in the chapter (and I can’t remember for the life of me if that’s ever disclosed), I tended to get the vibe the Night’s Watch people Coldhands killed were the deserters for two reasons.
1. A wight ranger who seems to be good (I mean, if you’re an evil wight ranger, I think you could kill Bran’s group with ease, instead of taking them on a tour of Undead Central first) would have a reason to kill deserters, but wouldn’t be so quick to kill legit NW people.
2. One of the dead guys (in Bran’s wolf dream) was described as having one hand. One of the deserters was named “Lophand”, which my brain is telling me had to do with him only having one. But since it was like 2-3 books ago when we actually saw any of these people, I’m not positive on if their descriptions match or anything.
So, yeah, I guess.
@27,
while Tyrion isn’t condemned for murdering Shae. True, Shae brutally
threw Tyrion under the bus in addition to sleeping with Tywin, but she
was in it over her head and her death pushed him close to (though not
over) the Moral Event Horizon for me.
I agree. Shae’s death always sat wrong with me, because her reaction to being found in Tywin’s bed by Tyrion was just SO stupid. So either she wanted to die, or was too stupid to realize how hurtful that would be. A person who’d been in Tywin’s pocket the whole time, which is the ONLY excuse I’d accept for what Tyrion did to her, wouldn’t have been so stupid, because Tywin doesn’t truck with stupid.
I can’t even recall, but she wasn’t even of age was she?
This Bran chapter creeps me out so much. The hunger, the cold, the knowing that it’s too late to turn back and the fear that there’s nothing ahead. And then on top of that there’s cannibalism. I mean, Summer eating human meat is one thing, but Bran doing it through Summer is bad enough. And then….
“The ranger killed a pig.” Uh-huh. They’ve been traveling for days, weeks, without even Summer being able to find anything to hunt. Nothing at all. And then suddenly, out of the blue, at the very same time that Bran-in-Summer finds dead men to chow down on, the ranger just happens to get lucky enough to find a pig? I’m suspicious.
(We all know what supposedly tastes like pig, don’t we?)
@28: Oh yes. Ollo Lophand, a Tyroshi. I’m re-reading A Storm of Swords, and I read that chapter a few days ago. He was the one who killed (or rather mortally wounded) Lord Commander Mormont. He then went on to immediately rape one of Craster’s wives on the table. What a nasty pice of work, it’s really gratifying to see that Coldhands dealt some justice there.
I completely missed that on my first read. It’s not surprising, it’s hard to remember every detail. That’s why the first time I saw people on forums mention that the fate of the mutineers was resolved and that we know Coldhands killed them, I wondered: “Wait, when did that happen?”
@29: She’s supposed to be around 18 when Tyrion meets her, or I think that’s what he thought her age was. That makes her about 20 in ASOS, about 5 years younger than Tyrion.
@@@@@ 29, 31 yeah, I think Tyrion estimates her at “no more than eighteen” when he first sees her. So, teenager, but a few years older than Sansa or Dany. Assuming Tyrion can judge ages, that is.
Yeah, that’s how the Wiki of Ice and Fire officially estimates that she died at age 19 or 20.
Not much to say on the combined reading order; in this particular case no AFFC chapters lie between our new chapters. However, with the Bran chapter, an interesting structure emerges: the Tyrion, Brienne, and Bran chapters all fit nicely between the “three rulers being awoken”, which is appropriate because in the case of the non-rulers, they are all on heroic quests; a Flight from Danger, a Knight Errant, and a Crossing the Threshold.
@30 — yep that’s what I thought too. Convenient, Coldhands finding that pig. Must be a “long pig”….yum.
I doubt Bran has internet access that far north of the Wall, with which to Google those terms.
(yet)
As a name Griff never bothered me. Griff is a perfectly ordinary welsh name. For example the comedian Griff Rhys Jones is a fairly big celebrity in the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griff_Rhys_Jones
It is also the normal diminutive for Griffith. And like a lot of welsh names it also occurs as a patronymic surname.
Here are some quotes regarding Jojen, greenseers, and the children of the forest which should clear things up. These are from ACOK and ASOS, so there’s no spoilers.
Of course dogs bite in ASOIAF. Just ask Weese. He can’t answer, though, because his dog bit his throat off. Illyrio just likes talking about dragons.
@@@@@ 10 RobMRobM …so you are the guy stealing everyones lunch from the office fridge, lol.
** correction **
@8 RobMRobM
@41 It was the other guy.
Actually Wed night is pizza night for those who work late. Leftovers are fair game the next day.
#27: I agree that the murder of Shae was a dark, dark act. But as to why people react to it differently than to Victarion’s murder of his wife: I think it’s a question of relatability. Most people find it much easier to relate to the motivations for Tyrion’s crime, and therefore forgive him, especially as we had seen what he was going through with his arrest and trial – while most of us presumably and fortunately has never killed a former lover, it’s not that hard to imagine feeling the anger at being betrayed and/or publicly humiliated by someone you loved and had a long-term intimate relationship with. And in terms of betrayal, it’s pretty harsh and probably far beyond anything most readers may have experienced – providing crucial testimony to condemn you to death. Now, of course, Tyrion was quite deluded about the nature of his relationship with Shae, and he should have considered her own situation and that she may have had to testiry, but it’s easy to see how he would find it hard to be rational. And in addition, I think he may not have done if it had been just the testimony, because she may have been just trying to save herself, but her humiliating him by revealing their intimate details (the fact she called him “my giant of Lannister”), which she didn’t have to do, proved to him that she didn’t care about him at all – and Tyrion is also, like the rest of his family, very proud, and takes mockery really hard.
None of this excuses what he did – but it’s far more relatable than Victarion is to most readers; one could say that Victarion was just doing what was deemed acceptable and moral by his culture’s standards (and I’ve seen that argument used a lot by Victarion fans to justify his behavior in general and claim that he is less evil than many other characters in the series), but to me and probably quite a few others, the “my wife may have slept with Euron, or may have been raped by him; anyway, I want to kill him, but I can’t, because it would be kinslaying, but killing her is fine, so I’ll beat her to death” mindset is just so alien, that Victarion thinking about it and feeling sorry for himself just feels annoying, and he comes off as stupid rather than sympatheric.
Of course, I’m not talking about those fans who think that Tyrion’s murder of Shae was OK and that Shae deserved to be killed. That’s just wrong.
A funny follow up – a very famous Boston lawyer named Jerry Facher – one of the guys featured in the book and John Travolta movie “A Civil Action” – was infamous inside his firm for wandering the kitchens at night and eating anything in the fridge, whether or not it belonged to someone.
Tyrion v Victarion. In addition to relatability, there is the issue of intent. There’s a form of killing called voluntary manslaughter and it equates to killing without premeditation in the heat of passion. Tyrion is a classic example. While Victarion had serious grounds to incite him to do what he did, the decision to kill appears to have been done in more methodical fashion…and that changes that sort of crime from manslaughter to premeditated murder. Heat of passion must be immediate in order to qualify for the lesser crime. It’s a fine line but I view Victarion as being on the wrong side of the line. Small but important difference.
Tabby@9 – as a longtime enjoyer of the Wheel of Time re-read, I’d prefer Triocrowtamian.
Possible spoilers below (technical sense, not plot or characters) regarding Green Dreams, Greenseers and Wargs.
Jojen is a green dreamer. It seems to be a lesser relation to a Greenseer. All Jojen has a dreams, which sometimes (always) come true.
Greenseers can also warg, or use the weirwoods which gives them the extra powers claimed.
/ possible spoilers
Griff is a Welsh name (e.g. Griff Rhys Jones) its a shortened form of Griffith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffith_(name)). If the author of the article doesn’t like Welsh inspired names they should probably avoid fantasy considering Tolkien’s use of Welsh as inspiration. I wouldn’t mind the author making the point that they don’t appreciate the name but they way in which they labour said point is a bit insensitive to other languages and cultures
I always figured that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.
Moderator note: Message edited for possible spoilers. (@51, 53 –erring on the side of caution, I whited it out. SR)
Above flagged for spoilers. I know it’s just speculation but I think that’s the kind of thing Leigh doesn’t want to see.
It’s not a spoiler, it’s speculation. That’s kind of different. In fact, a lot of the blog is speculation. That’s what makes it interesting.
51&52: You’re both right IMO. It’s not a spoiler, it’s speculation, but it’s the kind of speculation we are trying to keep hidden from Leigh. I’d white it out to err on the side of abundant caution.
@53, I’m not trying to be offensive, but I can’t agree. It’s something that occured to me on reading, and I’ve never gone looking anywhere to see if it’s true or not. Why is it something that should be hidden from Leigh? If it’s not a spoiler, it doesn’t need to be hidden.
Because she’s asked that it be hidden from her. (ETA: I agree with you in that PERSONALLY I don’t find such speculation spoilers and I don’t mind hearing such things the first time I read a book. But Leigh does, and so she’s asked that it not be in the threads on these reads, but instead discussed on the spoiler thread).
Hi guys – good to have the spoiler process discussion on the table so we don’t have to fight excessively.
There are a couple of problems from Leigh’s standpoint, one being that speculation by those who have read the books may be more informed than speculation from newbies such as herself who have only read so far. We’ve been giving a bit more space to spec from Steven Halter, who is reading along chapter by chapter with Leigh, so isn’t “tainted” like most of the rest of us, but there is a line in how much speculating we do on the main page that we try not to cross, given that Leigh has made pretty clear she’d prefer the line to be very conservative.
Does that help?
I totally get what you guys are saying, and that’s fine. It’s a moot point now anyway :)
As long as it is not a “mute” point for your future contributions….
@21 Ravens and crows are related (both genus corvus) but distinct species. The way you can tell is if you see a crow you think “oh hey, a crow,” but if you see a raven you first think “who owns this dog? why is it off-leash?”
Lyanna Mormont @30–What you speculated re ‘Coldhands finding a pig’ is something I had never thought of. Now I can’t unthink it. Thanks. :)
I do not think that word means what you think it means. : )
mootmo?ot/adjective1.subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision.”whether the temperature rise was mainly due to the greenhouse effect was a moot point“synonyms:debatable, open to discussion/question, arguable, questionable, at issue, open to doubt, disputable, controversial, contentious, disputed,unresolved, unsettled, up in the air”a moot point”
No, I know exactly what it means. There’s no more debate about whether I should white it out or not. A moderator took care of whiting it out. Point 2 from wiktionary:
An issue regarded as potentially debatable, but no longer practically applicable. Although the idea may still be worth debating and exploring academically, and such discussion may be useful for addressing similar issues in the future, the idea has been rendered irrelevant for the present issue.
AM is right, as far as I’m concerned. Moot is also one of those legal terms in the Anglo Saxon legal tradition that allow a court to dismiss a case (mootness – no longer a live dispute; ripeness – not yet a live dispute, etc).
And here I though a Moot was just how Iron Islanders elected a king. You learn something new every day :)
I think he used it right. It was no longer a relevant debate, although of course we just like to be pedantic over here anyway.
@65 – Yes, this debate is moot. I see what you did there…
2nd definition points are for trolls. : )
I had a college classmate named Griffin, and recently met a kid with the same name. Neither of them shortened it to Griff, though. Great name, IMO.
Chapter 4 – Bran:”Are we ther yet?”
Lol, I guess that means that Hodor is a minivan. Although, Bran is still slipping into Hodor’s mind. And Hodor doesn’t really seem to like it, so not cool, Bran.
Coldhands the Ranger seems to be another type of frozen zombie. Hmm, he also seems to have killed some other Night’s Watch people (who are now being eaten by Summer with Bran along–squick) and was sent by “the last greenseer/wizard” very interesting.
@@@@@ 7,17, 25, 50: Regarding Coldhands (whited out for spoilers)
// It is unlikely that Coldhands is Benjen Stark, for a number of reasons:
Leaf, who is over 200 years old, says Coldhands was killed “long ago”. Benjen hasn’t even been missing for two years, a relatively small amount of time for one of the children of the forest.
When Coldhands kills his elk, he whispers a blessing to it in a “strange tongue”, which is most likely the Old Tongue. There is no evidence that Benjen can speak this language, and it’s unlikely he would have learned it from wildlings and giants beyond the Wall. This supports the idea that Coldhands really did live a long, long time ago.
At the end of the chapter Leigh just read, Bran and the Reeds openly challenge Coldhands about whether he’s leading them into a trap. The Three Eyed Crow has sent Coldhands to lead Bran to him, so if Coldhands was Benjen, it makes little sense to keep himself concealed. Revealed, it would only cause Bran to trust him.
Coldhands seems to have ancient knowledge. He knows about the passage through the Black Gate, and that he cannot pass through it. The Watch at large does not have this information, since Sam has to tell them about it when he returns to Castle Black. Benjen was First Ranger, so it’s safe to assume that he wouldn’t have a compelling reason to hide this information from his brothers.
All in all, there are multiple reasons against Coldhands being Benjen, and none really in favour of it, besides the fact that they’re both men of Night’s Watch. //
(Note: message edited by moderator — whited out the spoiler part.)
@22 – Hold on a second!!
The main difference I see between Tyrion and Victarion is that it’s relatively clear (at least to me) that Victarions wife was raped. It’s a classic case of blaming the victim, making it that much more heinous because it was rape, which sees a massive amount of victim blaming in real life.
When it comes to Tyrion, the evidence all points to the fact that regardless of being coerced into testifying against Tyrion at the trial, she was not forced at all to join Tywin in his bed. She either took a payment from him, which just further confirmed to Tyrion that she was in it for the money the whole time, or she was doing it for free, which would be more of a betrayal from Shae in Tyrions mind.
Obviously it’s meant to be a very dark event in Tyrions life, as evidenced by the drinking and nightmares in this chapter. Obviously patricide is the lion’s (hah) share of his mental issues, but “Wherever whore’s go” shows that what he did to Shae (and what Shae did to him) is very much in his mind. Yes, he’s obviously thinking about Tysha too, but Shae was always kind of a Replacement Goldfish for Tysha anyway.
@72.
The fact that Tyrions murder if Shae is justified by the fact that her being with Tywin proves she was in it for the money is problematic.
Of course she was in it for the money she was a prostitute! Why should she be held responsible for Tyrions delusion that it was ever anything more?
Tyrion even acknowledged his own delusion multiple times as a delusion. So fans have no excuse for feeling Tyrion was justified in what he did, other than the fact the we are conditioned to be ennured to violence against sex workers.
I also think that expecting a prostitute to be able to say “no” to Tywin Lannister, particularly under the circumstances, is asking a lot.
Glad to see some other lawyers who understand the heat of passion defense. @74 and @73 what you are doing is making the moral arguments against the heat of passion defense “murder is murder” and it should all be treated the same. This is a good consequentalist argument but one our legal system has decided against (and by our I mean the English anglo – Saxon given the location of Tor). In legal terms it is called mens rea or as said before mental state/intent (because law we have to make things sound more orante than they are). Even if it was a terrible delusion Tyrion really did believe Shae had come to really love him and seeing her in his father’s bed was simply to much of a pull the rug out from under you moment for him to stay “sane”. I have problems with this argument – but it does seem like a lessor violation to me than others. People can certainly disagree though and ultimatly another human is still dead. But then this is Game of Thrones – do not enter if looking for black and white morality.
Oh and to the rereader soooooooooooooooooooo much I want to say about your questions … but I can not. Just know some will be answered and it will be glorious (glorious) and I can’t wait to see your reaction. Damn holidays messing up the reread schedule!
I am a lawyer and I understand the “heat of passion” argument. Two points about it:
1. I don’t think it does Tyrion much good to reduce his crime even to involuntary manslaughter. It’s not like that makes Shae’s murder “ok”.
2. To a substantial extent, people are mixing moral and legal arguments on this thread. Regardless of how the modern legal system may have treated Tyrion, we can still judge him morally. That’s what Aeryl and I are getting at.
I don’t look for moral black and white here, and don’t hate Tyrion and Victarion equally. But it’s a controversial issue, and I’m interested in the thinking behind other readers’ opinions.
@76 – my original intent was to use the legal concepts (based on mens rea) to explain potential differences in relative culpability between Tyrion and Victarion, which I view plainly exist. Tyrion has a good deal of moral culpability for Shae’s death but it is (to me) understandable given the circumstances – namely, he was in love with Shae, Shae appeared to know it and either returned his love to acted as if she did, and the scene with Tywin combined with her attempts to manipulate Tyrion caused him to snap. I wonder what have happened if GRRM wrote the scene to have Shae admit she did it, break down, cry and say she couldn’t say no to the most powerful man in Westeros even though she didn’t want to do it. I would bet no killing. But GRRM didn’t write it that way. (Legally, of course, Tyrion is a dead man irrespective of his mens rea – given that his sister is in charge.)
Rob, I agree with you on the comparison between Tyrion and Victarion. I don’t agree about Tyrion and Shae, but that’s not because we disagree on the law. I just weigh the factors differently than you, in part because we only see the events through Tyrion’s POV and when I re-imagine them from Shae’s perspective, it comes out quite different IMO.
Sophist – understood.
No one deserves to die, even if the person’s behavior is questionable (and even though Shae showed a disturbing tendency to take risks that put Tyrion in a tough position – e.g., hanging out with the blackmailing singer in ACOK), but I say to myself “It’s Westeros” in the exact same tone as “It’s Chinatown” was said to Jake Gittes at the end of that classic movie.
@45, @78 – I’m not a lawyer, but isn’t it closer to felony murder than voluntary manslaughter?
Whether he went there with the intent of murdering Shae is less relevant than the fact that he did so in the process of committing another crime. It’s really no different than if he had he killed her in order to prevent her from calling for the guards.
Tyrion (1) escaped from prison and instead of fleeing, (2) he goes to the Hand’s chambers (3) with a loaded crosssbow, (4) looking specifically for his father. We’re inside his head and he never explicitly thinks about murdering Tywin before the fact, but from an outside perspective that looks like premeditation.
And for the record, yes I do condemn Tyrion for killing Shae. Even more than I condemn Vicatarion – he’s already a multiple-murderer/rapist, what’s one more in his total? For Tyrion, though, that crossed a major moral line.
IG – correct that felony murder would fit the facts (I think) but it is a non mental state crime that didn’t bear on my original purpose of using legal mental state categories to help define possible levels of culpability.
Tyrion definitely crossed a line (indeed, several lines), no doubt about it.
My view is that Shae did betray Tyrion. I don’t blame her for testifying against Tyrion by itself – she had very little choice on that matter, obviously. But humiliating Tyrion publicly, using the exact phrase (“my giant of Lannister”) from their intimate relationship was absolutely not necessary. I think that bit shows us that she is a very selfish and scheming person – she knew how much that will hurt Tyrion and said exact phrase to show to Cercei and/or Tywin will notice how loyal she is to them, hoping for advancement. It is not clear from the text, but it makes sense to assume that she actually seduced Tywin, hoping to continue her life of luxury as Hand’s lover at Kings Landing. I am not saying that it justifies what Tyrion did completely, but I can say that i feel very little simpathy for Shae.
Victarion’s case is very different. It is not said explicitly in the text, but the fact that he his rage is only directed at Euron and not at his wife (he remembers he was weeping when he beat her to death) is a very clear indication that she did not cheat on him willingly, but was raped by Euron. So he basicly murdered an innocent person, only because he thought that other people will laugh at him if he didn’t, which is just plain horrible.
@83 NickH
But humiliating Tyrion publicly, using the exact phrase (“my giant of
Lannister”) from their intimate relationship was absolutely not
necessary.
Unless Cersei demanded it was. Cersei orchestrated that trial, and went out of her way to see him humiliated. Threatening Shae that unless she revealed those details she would be imprisoned along side him is completely in line with that.
I cannot understand people who say “I can understand Shae being coerced to testify, but CANNOT abide by the fact that she used the truth to do it”. I mean any person with half a brain would see through Shae’s story, unless there were some juicy and TRUE details in it to allow them to accept it.
“You better put some details that will hurt my brother, or I’ll cut your child’s tits off, whore!”
That is something I personally can see Cersei saying. Why no one else?
@85 – I’m with you on this – Tyrion getting humiliated really pales in comparison to Shae lying outright by saying Tyrion conspired with Sansa to murder Joffrey. Which, come to think of it, is one of only two lies told in the entire trial (the other being Lady Taena ‘seeing’ Tyrion put something in the wine). All of the other testimony we know of was factually true (if out of context).
That’s what always gets me about the trial – even though we know Tyrion is innocent, it was actually a fair trial, and the evidence was overwhelmingly against Tyrion.
Chapter 5 – Tyrion:Some very interesting back story on Varys and Illyrio gets dumped to us (in a nice fashion) in the start of the chapter. When Tyrion awakens after the night of gorging and stories, he has the very interesting thought of:
I’m guessing the reason will come out eventually. (Place that kitten on the mantlepiece. Hmm, there’s getting to be quite a few kitten’s on the mantle looking all cute and fluffy but all full of fangs at the same time.)
Interesting that the Valyrian roads are still raised a half foot after four centuries. Plenty of time for the surrounding ground level to build up.
The grey death sounds pretty nasty. I am guessing that the “cold stone feet” of the rats is literal and the plague turns extremities to stone. Thus, the hands that Illyrio keeps that were “once so soft” are now stone. An odd memento.
*peeks in at the argument* Eep. I did warn you I was opening a jar of leeches.
Shae definitely isn’t as sweet and guileless as Tyrion insisted to himself, as shown by her words about rape-impregnated Lollys. Hard to find anyone in ASOIAF who hasn’t committed verbal cruelty at the least. Ugh.
I agree, Shae weasn’t necessarily sweet, and I think she may have been opportunistic and taking advantage of Tyrion’s need for affection (I am not sure one way or the other if she was also pressured into humiliating Tyrion at the trial – the thought has definitely occurred to me, but I could also believe she could have done it on her own).
But I don’t believe any of those things justify her murder.
As a non lawyer, the heat of passion defense seems kind of sketchy to me. If somebody is that unstable that getting upset causes those things (and part of that ‘upset’ was caused from Tyrion’s own self-admitted delusions) why on earth would we want them walking around amongst us?
If manipulativeness and occasional verbal cruelty were grounds for execution (and the sentences were carried out), most of the notable characters would be dead.
@89 AeronaGreenjoy
It’s ASoIaF. Most of the notable characters ARE dead.
#90 – took the words right out of my mouth.
Speculation, based on the previous book only:
I suspect someone drugged (poisoned?) Shae – else she would not have been so stupid or so easy to kill. Probably that same person poisoned Tywin. And put a loaded crossbow in easy reach…
Following from this, I doubt Tywin ever slept with Shae and I am sure Shae did not choose to be there.
All evidence of course points to Varys, who seems to consider it important to get Tyrion to Essos, but why? Secret Targaryen loyalism, or something else entirely?
@92 Cassanne
I think you’re barking up an epileptic tree here…
@92 Cassanne- I agree with Randalator. There are many things I could say regarding your post, but most of them would be spoilers as they aren’t things that Leigh has read or speculated yet. I’ll just say that a COUPLE of your points ALMOST hit the mark but not quite; the whole theory doesn’t hold water, especially given what I (and most of the ASOIAF fandom) believe about Tywin’s death, Shae’s presence in Tywin’s bed, Varys’ goals and methods, etc….
Obviously manipulation and verbal cruelty are not crimes punishable by death (or by any other means). I am not talking about the judicial side – according to the law Shae is innocent and Tyrion is guilty of murdering her – that is not a question. The “heat of the moment” argument can somewhat soften Tyrion’s the verdict, but it cannot cancel it.
But i wasn’t talking about the law, i was talking about the moral side of the story. Shae never cared for Tyrion, was taking advantage of his desire to be loved, and betrayed him as soon as her interests required it. So as a reader (not a judge) i have no sympathy for Shae and a lot for Tyrion.
I don’t buy the argument that “Cercei coerced Shae into false confession against Tyrion, so she could also coerce her into humiliating him publicly”. Of course nothing can be proved conclusively, since Shae is not a POV character, that just seems somewhat too complicated/unnecessary, besides if i remember it correctly Shae doesn’t look sad or depressed in the trial scene. I think Martin included that bit about “giant of Lannister” as a hint that Shae’s betrayal was real. Shae’s betrayal also fits perfectly into Tyrion’s arc – he is betrayed by everyone: Bronn, Jaime, Varys, etc. So why not Shae too?
Shae’s fatal mistake of saying the exact same phrase she used to mock Tyrion at court in Hand’s chamber’s can be easily explained. She did not expect to see Tyrion, when she saw him she was frightened and just blurted out one of her usual phrases that she used to please Tyrion instinctively. I think it is quite possible to act like that for someone extremely shocked and frightened. Again, IF Shae was coerced into betrayal, her first words to Tyrion would have likely been something like “you don’t understand, they made me do it”, etc.
Just in case if it is not clear from my previous post: I am not saying that i justify the murder of Shae, i just fully sympathise with Tyrion when he did it, quite unlike Victarion which was the original comparison.
Will there be a post today or the next post at 8 Jan 2015?
@97 – There will be a post later today!
@95
Shae never cared for Tyrion, was taking advantage of his desire to be
loved, and betrayed him as soon as her interests required it.
I’m confused, when was Shae EVER obligated to care for Tyrion? How is fulfilling the contract she was hired to fulfill, taken against her will from the patron she had chosen, to be forced to serve one higher ranking, qualify as “taking advantage of his desire to be loved”.
My point has always been, Shae would have to have voluntarily agreed to any terms between her and Tyrion for what she did to qualify as “betrayal”. And the text demonstrates, that she was not afforded such a capacity.
She was abducted from her former patron by a man with weapons, and taken to Tyrion. Tyrion decided to take her to KL, with no conference from her as to whether she wished to go. He locked her up in a house, set her to be guarded by barbarians, killed any friends she happened to make, then forced her to be a servant so she could be close by when he wished his needs fulfilled.
What exactly was there for her to “betray”? Why does what Tyrion did to her, taking a hapless and ignorant young girl from the life she knew, to one that put her very life in danger, not count as the first betrayal.
also fits perfectly into Tyrion’s arc – he is betrayed by everyone: Bronn, Jaime, Varys, etc.
Except NONE of those people betrayed him. Bronn was always a sellsword. The only loyalty he ever promised Tyrion was based on Tyrion outbidding his enemies. When those enemies are the ones that funded Tyrion’s deep pockets, his loyalty was gone. That’s not betrayal.
Jaime didn’t betray Tyrion, He was helping him escape. You could count his actions years ago as a ‘betrayal” but that doesn’t take place as a part of the arc, as you claim.
Varys didn’t betray Tyrion. He always made it clear to Tyrion that he served multiple masters, and that he had to do what he had to do. That’s not a betrayal, that’s forewarning of “don’t trust me, I’m not your ally”. And he too, helped Tyrion escape.
Tyrion may percieve these things as betrayals, but his perception is incorrect. Since his perceptions are wrong, whatever flimsy self justifications he has for his actions falls apart.
Again, IF Shae was coerced into betrayal, her first words to Tyrion
would have likely been something like “you don’t understand, they made me do it”, etc.
Except that Shae has consistently been shown to be too stupid to think like this.
For those interested: names for collections of various kinds of animals are fascinating. A list can be found at
http://longstreet.typepad.com/thesciencebookstore/2009/07/an-unkindness-of-ravens-a-murder-of-crows-naming-things.html
If the link doesn’t work (or is disallowed) you can probably simply Google “Unkindness of ravens” and find it. In any case, my favorite is a “Crash” of rhinocerus. (And, yes, apparently the plural is the same as the singular . . .)
I just wanted to say a HUGE thanks for your work, here. I enjoy your blog immensely If you aren’t an editor yet, I hope you will be soon. This is a real contribution to the genre. Thank you!!!