Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 5 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 7 (“Jon”) and Chapter 8 (“Tyrion”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 7: Jon
What Happens
Jon tries to convince himself to sign the letter before him, reminding himself that the Watch takes no part. Gilly enters, and Jon tells her his plan to keep Dalla’s son from being burned at Melisandre’s hands. Gilly pleads against it, begging to be allowed to take both boys, but Jon says they will both die that way. He tells himself he cannot show her that her tears affect him, and tells her that if she refuses and Dalla’s boy dies, hers will as well. Gilly falls silent, in despair, and Jon dismisses her.
He calls for Sam, and shows him the letter to King Tommen, which declares the Watch’s neutrality and emphasizes that Stannis only helped them defend the Wall. Jon doesn’t want to send it, to concede to Tywin in any way, but Sam points out that should the Lannisters prevail, Tywin may decide they were traitors anyway, and a paper shield is better than none. Jon reluctantly agrees, and signs the letter. He asks Sam for information on the Others, but Sam has not been able to find much more on how to defeat them than they already knew, though he found one account which said they were vulnerable to dragonsteel. Jon takes this to mean rare and precious Valyrian steel, and laughs bitterly at their chances of acquiring more.
He then informs Sam of his plan to send Sam, Aemon, and Gilly to Oldtown, to protect Aemon from Melisandre and to have Sam train as a maester. He is puzzled by Sam’s resistance to the idea, and becomes frustrated at Sam’s protestations of cowardice. He snaps that Sam has faced more things than most men ever would, and commands him to cease calling himself a coward. Sam brings up his father’s opposition to the idea, and Jon tells him Sam belongs to the Watch, not his father, and he will obey. Sam folds, and Jon dismisses him. Jon reflects tiredly on Aemon’s advice to him, which was the same he gave his brother Egg when he ascended the throne:
Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born. The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”
Jon goes out to make his rounds, and learns that Stannis has sent out two knights—ostensibly to patrol, but knowing that Stannis has already sent the Onion Knight to Lord Manderly, Jon surmises they are actually envoys. He decides it is not his problem, and goes to a restless sleep. The next day he goes to see Gilly, Sam, and Aemon’s convoy off. Aemon tells him he has left a book for him, the Jade Compendium, with a passage marked that he thinks will be “of interest” to Jon. Gilly exhorts Jon to make sure “Dalla’s boy” grows up strong, and not to name him before two years. Jon wishes Sam well, and the convoy leaves.
Jon goes to see Bedwyck, a.k.a “Giant” (the shortest man in the Watch), and gives him command of the garrison of thirty men he wants stationed at Icemark, to watch for climbers. Bedwyck points out that thirty men won’t be much good against a large force, and Jon answers than thirty are better than none. He tells Bedwyck that he means to see all the forts manned eventually, but it will be Icemark and Greyguard, to be commanded by Janos Slynt. He is not happy about it, but reasons that Slynt must have some ability, and the command will get him away from Alliser Thorne.
When he sees Slynt, however, Slynt rejects the command outright, and says no “traitor’s bastard” will give him orders, before storming out. Jon gives him the night to reconsider, but in the morning finds him eating breakfast with no sign of preparing to leave. Before all the others in the common room, Jon gives Slynt one last chance to obey, and Slynt tells him to stick his order up his arse. Jon considers his possible responses, and then orders Slynt taken to the Wall and hanged. There is a tense moment where Thorne and Slynt’s other supporters consider defending him, but then Thorne backs down, and Slynt is taken into custody. Slynt screams insults and threats, and is ignored. They take him out, followed by all of Castle Black; Stannis watches from his tower. Slynt spits that Jon would not dare to hang him; Jon changes his mind, and decides to behead him instead.
Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. “Please, my lord. Mercy. I’ll… I’ll go, I will, I…”
No, thought Jon. You closed that door. Longclaw descended.
“Can I have his boots?” asked Owen the Oaf, as Janos Slynt’s head went rolling across the muddy ground. “They’re almost new, those boots. Lined with fur.”
Jon glanced back at Stannis . For an instant their eyes met. Then the king nodded and went back inside his tower.
Commentary
Fuckin’ A, man.
I’m pretty sure I’m supposed to be against beheadings as a general thing, and I am, NO REALLY, but in context (i.e., ASOIAF context, a.k.a. “often distressingly amoral but how the fuck else am I going to get through this” context) that was absolutely the right move for Jon on all levels, as far as I am concerned.
From a ruthlessly pragmatic perspective, then, Jon’s execution of Slynt was (in my opinion, of course) a brilliant tactical move. It not only rid him of a potentially very dangerous thorn in his side (if not the actual Thorne in his side, hahaha okay sorry), but sent a very clear message to his other potential thorns: Namely, that you fuck with Lord Commander Jon Snow at your peril, so maybe it’s better if you don’t.
It is a sad, sad thing how much better fear works to keep people in line than respect, more often than not. Or how often those two things are equated. Sigh. People, man.
I am also not blind to the parallels there re: Ned. Not only in terms of Jon falling in line with his father’s philosophy re: leadership (i.e., do your own dirty work), but the karma of Ned’s son beheading one of the ones who was instrumental in beheading him. “What goes around comes around” isn’t a truism that often applies in ASOIAF (or in the real world either, because who are we kidding), but maybe that means it’s all the nicer on those rare occasions when it does apply.
So, that was a pretty awesome ending to the chapter, which is good because it makes up for how boring the first half was, rehashing as it did stuff we already knew from Sam’s POV in the previous book. I am certainly not against seeing the same events from different perspectives if it adds something to the reader’s perspective of those events, but I’m not really sure that happened here. Possibly because we know Jon Snow well enough as a character to have already inferred both his reasoning about and his angst over what he did. Which speaks well to his character development, but makes a fairly large chunk of this chapter unnecessary and, well, boring.
The possible exception to that being Jon’s reflection on Aemon’s advice to him (as evidenced by the fact that I felt the need to quote it), which struck me as being both completely correct and utterly depressing. (It also made me really want to read the Dunk and Egg story where Egg actually gains the throne, but I’m not sure whether that’s ever going to happen.)
Depressing or not, Jon appears to have taken that advice to heart most assiduously, which is a good thing in the abstract re: Slynt and general I Am The Boss of Y’all considerations, but sad in the way that all loss-of-innocence stories are sad. Not that Jon had all that much innocence to lose at this point, true, but it seems that he did still have a little. But, if it means at least a few fewer people fucking with him, I’ll take it.
As for the stuff on the Others, I think we already knew all of that information, including the bit about dragonsteel? So, not especially helpful, except that it reminded me of my impression that Valryian steel is so rare because no one knows how to make it anymore, and therefore contributed to the overall sense that the Watch is so, so screwed, which is… also not helpful. So, yay?
“He’ll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man’s yabber.” Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders.
Ha, Dolorous Edd. You guys should probably just expect that I’m going to quote the Depthless and Hilarious Wisdom of Dolorous Edd anytime it appears on general principle, because it makes me happy in that perverse, Eeyore way. DEAL WITH IT.
Chapter 8: Tyrion
What Happens
Tyrion and Illyrio meet with two of Griff’s company, Haldon Halfmaester and Ser Rolly Duckfield, a.k.a. Duck. Illyrio introduces Tyrion as “Yollo,” but Tyrion corrects him that he is only called that in Pentos, and goes by Hugor Hill. Duck and Haldon are not much impressed by Tyrion, but Tyrion quickly proves to Haldon that his knowledge of dragons is adept. They discuss the incursions of the Dothraki nearby, which means Griff must make haste downriver. Illyrio tells them to apologize on his behalf that he will not be there for “the boy’s” wedding, but he will rejoin them in Westeros. Tyrion leaves with the mercenaries.
Haldon and Duck try to scare Tyrion with tales of the pirates in the area, and Tyrion amuses them with his droll replies. Duck becomes nervous, though, when Haldon brings up “the Shrouded Lord,” and Tyrion is unnerved as well. Duck tells his life story as they travel, and Tyrion thinks of his childhood wish to travel the world, soon squashed cruelly by his father.
They reach Goyan Drohe, once a great city but now little more than a ruin after the dragon wars, and go to the Shy Maid, a deliberately homely riverboat, where Tyrion meets Griff and his son Young Griff. Tyrion immediately identifies Griff as trouble. Both Griffs are equally unimpressed with Tyrion, and Haldon tells Griff that Illyrio sent a letter to explain.
In Griff’s cabin, Griff reads the letter, and demands to know why Illyrio would think Daenerys would want the help of a kingslayer and betrayer. Tyrion points out that the king he slew (taking credit for Joffrey’s assassination) was sitting on her throne. Griff asks why a Lannister would support a Targaryen, and Tyrion answers “for gold and glory—oh, and hate.” Griff says he understands the latter. He claims to be neither knight nor lord, but Tyrion thinks he is lying. Tyrion tells him that besides his knowledge of dragons, he can tell Daenerys how his sister Cersei thinks, how to defeat his brother Jaime in battle, which of the lords are loyal and brave, and which are craven or can be bought. Griff considers, and tells Tyrion that he will take him as far as Volantis on a provisional basis. Tyrion asks what happens if they arrive and find the tales of dragons are false:
Griff stared at him, frowning. “I have given you fair warning, Lannister. Guard your tongue or lose it. Kingdoms are at hazard here. Our lives, our names, our honor. This is no game we’re playing for your amusement.”
Of course it is, thought Tyrion. The game of thrones. “As you say, Captain,” he murmured, bowing once again.
Commentary
…So, Griff is not only really the dude’s name, but his son is named Griff, too?
Goddammit.
*headdesk*
*sulk*
Okay, fine, I’m over it. MOSTLY.
…Although maybe “Griff” still isn’t really his name, what with Tyrion’s thoughts about him totally lying about being a lord. I’m not sure where Tyrion got that conclusion, unless it was just because of the man’s general demeanor (I mean, surely any random schmoe can claim he’s knighting people without needing a shred of legitimacy to it), but sure. In any case, he still named his son “Griff,” so the name is apparently destined to live on regardless of what I think of it being a terrible, terrible name.
*sulks a little more*
Ugh, moving on.
So, it wasn’t said in so many words, but I am now thinking that given Illyrio’s references to “the boy’s wedding,” which I can only assume refers to Griff Junior (ugh), the plan here is to have Little Griff marry Dany, which… what? Did I know that before? I feel like I did not know that before. That doesn’t mean I didn’t, since I think we have firmly established that my memory for things is shit these days. But that’s what I feel right now, so I’m going with it being new information.
It also means that we have yet another suitor in the scrum for Dany, who should probably just change her name to Penelope at this point and be done with it, because sheesh. Except that she doesn’t have an Odysseus to show up and out-manly all the other suitors, of course, because I know Martin loves his plot twists. But I don’t think even he could sell Drogo returning from the dead at this point.
In any case, it provides backhanded support to Tyrion’s assertion that Griff the Elder (sigh) is a lord, anyway, since it doesn’t make much sense to think that a queen would be down with marrying some random mercenary captain’s son otherwise. So Griff Sr. may not be Quentyn, as per my original theory, but he’s still most likely More Than What He Seems.
Other than that, though, I don’t have a very clear picture of him so far. He was a jerk to Tyrion, yes, but pretty much everyone is a jerk to Tyrion on first meeting him, overtly or otherwise, because yay bigotry, so that doesn’t count for much. Hopefully he and his crew will realize the truth of Tyrion’s claim of how useful he can be to Dany and not kill him.
Or let him get killed, which seems like a distinct possibility on this trip, which is full of possible pirate encounters, apparently? Fun. And this:
“They say that the Shrouded Lord will grant a boon to any man who can make him laugh. Perhaps His Grey Grace will choose you to ornament his stony court.”
Duck glanced at his companion uneasily. “It’s not good to jape of that one, not when we’re so near the Rhoyne. He hears.”
“Wisdom from a duck,” said Haldon. “I beg your pardon, Yollo. You need not look so pale, I was only playing with you. The Prince of Sorrows does not bestow his grey kiss lightly.”
His grey kiss. The thought made his flesh crawl. Death had lost its
terror for Tyrion Lannister, but greyscale was another matter.
I’ve pretty much slotted in “greyscale” as the ASOIAF equivalent of leprosy, so yeah, apparently there is a pirate king about who has it, and likes to go around licking people to give it to them, too? Which is all kinds of fucked-up, but not particularly surprising. In fact, I feel like that has some kind of real-world historical equivalent it’s referencing, but I can’t put my finger on what.
Still waiting kind of half-hopefully to see if Tyrion and Quentyn meet up in Volantis, though considering that I now know that Tyrion’s posse also has a Dany suitor in tow, my original thought that they should team up has somewhat less validity now. But either way, it should be… interesting. We will see.
And that’s what I got for this one, kids! I hope everyone’s New Year was as fun as mine, and here’s to a fruitful and interesting 2015, yeah? Cheers, and see you next Thursday!
I think my favorite part of the Edd quote is how it ended. Him saying “No one wants to hear a dead man’s jabber” followed by a “went off muttering about worms and spiders”.
Since it’s a Jon POV, I got the distinct impression the way that was written was to say that Jon isn’t all that concerned with the jabber of certain living men, either. In that “Edd starts snarking, my ears turn off” sort of way.
I can never take a character named “Griff” seriously without first thinking of the Back to the Future 2 bully of the same name. (Biff and Griff Tannen)
So in my mind, “Old Griff” is “Old Biff”… young Griff on a Pit Bull hoverboard is …well, “Griff.”
So I add the word “butt head” to the end of all Old Griff lines and hear all young Griff lines like “Since when did YOU become the physical type??”
Greyscale is actually worse than leprosy, but that’s all I’ll say on that for now–just consider what would make Tyrion ( a guy who’s already been through maiming and mistreatment) recoil in horror. The comparison is a convenient shorthand in most respects, though.
Your disillusionment with young Griff came as it did to every other reader heh
Happy New Year Leigh
As much as I can respect Jon’s decision making/pragmatism and desire to save Dalla’s baby – there is something a bit barbaric about making a mother have to put her own child in peril like that.
Mwahahahaha! Leigh- given your absolute hatred of the name Griff, I was eager to see how you would react and we met not only one Griff, but two. And you did not disappoint.
The Jon chapter was mostly covering things we saw from Sam’s perspective before, but the second half was totally new, and it included Jon’s plans to man 2 more castles on the Wall plus the DEATH OF JANOS SLYNT! YAY!!!!!!!!!! Though I’m a little surprised you weren’t wary that Stannis agreed with Jon’a decision.
Tyrion’s chapter was fun, mostly because I love Tyrion’s wit, even if not much happened in it. Can’t say much more at this point, I’ll have to wait till later in his journey to comment on Griff, Young Griff, and the rest.
“Edd, fetch a block” is one of my favorite lines in the entire series.
Disobedience of a direct order on a battlefield can still result in execution in the American Army. On the spot with a pistol if necessary. I don’t think it has happened since Vietnam (yay volunteer military), but it could.
More importantly, it HAD to happen with Slynt or else Jon would lose his credibility and eventually his authority. Stannis understood.
I kind of doubt Tyrion would have impressed anyone – coming off a long bender as he was. I assumed he was wobbly on his feet and stunk of wine.
Well, the Jon chapter finally catches us up to the part of the previous book where Sam & co. head off for Oldtown. And then…it’s Happy Dance time! Jon executes Janos Slynt! *throws confetti*
(Okay I had to stop & post that. Now on to read the Tyrion chapter.)
BTW, a year or so ago I saw a book of Tyrion quotes in Barnes and Noble. When do we get a book with Dolorous Edd quotes????
There is also a neat parallel between Jon and Arya. Arya killed a NW deserter and gave his boots to Brusco. Jon executed a NW man for disobeying orders and allowed one of his men to have his boots.
@10 – It belongs on the shelf alongside of The Way of Mrs. Cosmopolite.
Daily reminder that GRRM knows what he’s doing, this is from Sansa shortly after Ned’s death:
“Sansa stared hard at (Janos Slynt’s) ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead; wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head.“
“He was a jerk to Tyrion, yes, but pretty much everyone is a jerk to Tyrion on first meeting him, overtly or otherwise, because yay bigotry, . . .”
Although, to be fair, Tyrion comes off as a something of a jerk himself when he meets people, because yay drunken snark.
Arrrgh, poor Sam, terrified by what should be a wonderful chance to build a life out of doing what he loves best. FU Randyll, you coldhearted son of a Myrddraal.
The UNspoiled crew pointed out a neat contrast to Dany’s first chapter, where she opts not to kill someone threatening her but knows he’ll only become a worse enemy. Different administrative strategies, consequences unknown…
@1: What kind of sillyface tunes out Dolorous Edd? Jon, trying to be a selfless leader doesn’t have to mean renouncing all of life’s pleasures.
I believe Tyrion is now the third POV character (after Arya and Sansa) to use a false name. Rather different from WoT, where many people do.
“All dwarfs are bastards in their fathers’ eyes.” In the TV show, Tyrion said this to Jon at Winterfell. Did he do that in the book as well, or was that line taken from this chapter?
Can’t fathom your particular dislke for the name Griff, but we all have our weirdnesses.
If only Uncle Gerion had been able to take Tyrion travelling. Now I has a sad. :(
I had to laugh, however, at Leigh being faced with not 1, but 2 Griffs.
The fact that Tyrion nearly answered ‘Yes, Father’ to one of Griff’s statements makes me side-eye Griff.
AeronaGreenjoy @15-I believe Tyrion did say that to Jon in the first book. During Robert’s visit to Winterfell.
@15. AeronaGreenjoy
As hard as I try to repress the memory, Quentyn is also using a different moniker, and I am quite sure Dorne was in Feast as well, so there again, and I get these two books confused so maybe Dorne hasn’t happened yet.
@15 Well, I wouldn’t! At the least, I’d be trying to 1-up him on his depressive snarking. But Jon seems to be of the “WAY too serious” breed most of the time where he broods on his vows, his responsibilties and so on to the point where you’d like something to grab him, point at Stannis and be like, “If you keep this up, you’ll be JUST LIKE HIM in a few years!!!!” Preferably out of Stannis’ hearing, as he doesn’t seem to be the sort of guy who’d laugh off things like that. Unless “sacrifice you to Mel’s god in fire” counts as laughter. Which it probably shouldn’t, since he’d still spent the entire time you were burning complaining about how he isn’t getting the support he deserves.
Oh, and depending on how you look at it, Tyrion would be #4 with a false name, as DoD prologue guy Varamyr was going by a false name while traveling with the other wildling refugees. A few more are coming up after a bit, but avoiding of spoilers and all that! DoD should be subtitled “A collection of people hiding their real identities for some reason or another and their wacky misadventures in really horrible locales!” Perhaps shortened to fit on the cover a bit more readily.
@17 So far, we’ve seen Quentyn in one chapter and I honestly can’t remember just how much he is hiding his identity. I mean, I know that due to the secrecy of the mission, he’s not proclaiming himself the Prince of Dorne and Dude About To Marry DragonGirl and is going as a merchant, but can’t remember if he has a whole new identity yet. I guess I remember that chapter more for the “OMG OMG OMG I have to do this and I haven’t a clue as to what I should be doing!!!” issues he was having with everything.
In Feast, the Dorne POVs were Arianne, who was herself (if acting secretly), Arys (playing the role of Arys the really weak-willed KG member) and Areo (essentially playing the role of a really big axe that happens to be attached to a man whose life revolves around guarding Doran’s interests). So, I don’t think any of those three really count as acting under an alter ego.
@15: He did.
“Jon was in no mood for anyone’s counsel. ‘What do you know about being a bastard?’
‘All dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes.'”
AeronaGreenjoy @15: Yes, “All dwarfs…” is a direct quote from the first book.
@16: It’s another of Tyrion’s catchphrases, then.
@17: ////I couldn’t find any mention of a specific alias in Quentyn’s first chapter, so haven’t included him at this point/// Who do you mean by “Dorne in AFFC”? Areo, Arys, and Arianne went by their own names then, IIRC.
@18: I didn’t remember Varamyr claiming to be someone else in the ADWD prologue. I may have to reread it.
@22 He went by Haggon, who was the guy that taught him warging whom he killed eventually. Mainly because he didn’t want anyone to know who is was for some reason or another (fear, but I can’t remember why specifically he didn’t want his comrades to know who he was).
It’s kind of more made clear through his semi-delirious mental meanderings of the immediate aftermath of the big battle where Mance was captured than anything else because at the time of the prologue, only he and Thistle are alive of that group of refugees and she only appears “on screen” at the very end.
@23: Thanks. I guess that makes Tyrion officially #4 so far.
Jon’s execution of Slynt had to be be the most satiesfying episode in the entire book. No one in ASOFAI had it coming more save perhaps for people surnamed Frey who fall afray of the BWOB and Lady S.
What about the Ned chapter where he is pretending to be someone named Areo and he cuts off Myrcella’s ear?
…or did I dream it?
It is a sad, sad thing how much better fear works to keep people in line than respect, more often than not.
Of course this made me think of that classic Machiavelli quote, which a lot of us here are probably familiar with:
“Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than
feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with.”
He goes on to observe that people are much less hesitant to offend someone that they love than someone that they fear. I kinda think Machiavelli would’ve enjoyed GoT.
@26: You’re probably thinking of the Feast for Crows chapter in which Areo Hotah and Doran’s men take Arianne and her friends captive after they try to make off with Myrcella, Gerold Dayne attempts to kill Myrcella, but only succeeds in cutting off her ear and scarring her, and Arys Oakheart commits suicide-by-Hotah because HONOR.
Ned was already long dead by that point.
@15 I don’t think Jon executing Slynt can be compared directly to Dany’s situation because Dany doesn’t know who exactly is guilty of killing the Unsullied. Of course it is a very reasonable assumption that many of the meerenese nobles are somehow involved in the harpy movement, but she has no idea who exactly is guilty and who is innocent. Basicly what Shavepate is suggesting is that Dany should kill some absolutely random meerenese nobles (1 man from each family) in retaliation for the Harpy killings. Dany declines that offer, which I think was a correct decision from both practical and moral side. If only Dany could find some evidence implicating a particular person, she would have had him executed, i do not doubt. (And, BTW Dany DID execute innocent people before – she had 163 masters killed in retaliation for the 163 slave children at the end of ASOS).
@27
There is no doubt in my mind that G.R.R. Machiavelli would thoroughly enjoy these books.
@29: Whoops, sorry. To clarify: they referred to Dany not killing the boy who tried to attack her after she refused to avenge his family murdered in the sacking of Meereen, who she now thinks will become a Son of the Harpy (but wasn’t one yet). Which is also a different situation than the one with Jon and Slynt, but gives us pause to ponder when a ruler should and shouldn’t show mercy.
LOL @lerris! :D
I actually like the name Griff a lot…
And I like Griff too.
@23 @24 Also Ramsay Bolton was going as “Reek” there for awhile.
This is my first “real time” posting, as I found this blog a few weeks ago and have been reading up on back posts since then. Waiting for this post for 3 days (!) has been pretty painful. I guess now I have to adapt to once per week. The upside is that my productivity has made a marked improvement.
Leigh, I’ve really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this series. Being able to see it again through the eyes of a newcomer is really very cool. Plus, I love your “voice” and your commentary in general. You catch waaay more than I did on my first reading, but I tended to skim through the boring parts whereas you are probably not granted that luxury since you have to recap it. Plus, you’re only reading 2 chapters a week (and I cannot understand how you stop yourself sometimes – I would not be able to). Anyway, regardless, I am always impressed with the things you catch and the accurate predictions you make.
Ramsay/Reek wasn’t a POV, so I didn’t count him. Also, welcome to the commenting community! :-)
Yes this was a very satisfying chapter.
And man that recollection from Sansa! Man I really want these Stark kids to meet up again, just so she fan know the hero whzo did what she wanted done was Jon.
Of course Stannis agreed with it. It is his kind of harsh justice.
I thought it was obvious why – because Varamyr is widely known and feared as an amoral super-powerful asshole who’s been abusing his powers for years, using it to do things like rape a bunch of women. I’m pretty sure that Thistle wouldn’t have been anywhere near him if she could help it, if she’d known who he was, and same goes for everyone else.
@28 – Yeah exactly! You didn’t realize that was Ned pretending to be Areo? I thought it was obvious. I don’t remember Hodor being in that scene though.
Does // Barristan Selmy // count as a POV character hiding his identity?
(Moderator note: whited out potential spoiler.)
I have always wondered why Lord Commander Jon cared whether Dalla’s baby was sacrificed or not. Since the baby is technically Stannis’ prisoner, you would think that Jon would expect retaliation for pulling the switch. Plus doesn’t this go against his “the Night’s Watch doesn’t interfere” mantra? This isn’t modern America where children are expected to be protected from harm at all costs; it’s a world were you’re lucky to make it to age 10 and you’re considered a grown up at 12.
In fact, if I was the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and the Fire Witch thinks that she might get a dragon out of a kingly sacrifice, I would probably wait to see what happens. A dragon would be WAY handier against the Others than a baby –or an old man for that matter.
#41: Because some people DO care about protecting children, and the innocent and the helpless. Ned was certainly one of them, killing children was something he found horrific. Jon is one of them, too; Dany is one of them, Arya is, too – many who like to think of her as some psycho badass assassin tend to forget about her protecting people like Weasel, when even a rather good guy like Gendry wanted to get rid of her, and that several people she put on her list or had killed by Jaqen were there for killing or raping innocents.
It sometimes seems like a part of fandom gets to caught up in the idea of ASOAIF as some nihilistic, cynical story of “dog eats dog”, that they ignore all the signs to the contrary.
Whenever someone says: “If I were in the place of character X, I would…”, my answer is: “Well, that’s because you’re not character X. Character X is portrayed as a person who would do exactly what they’re doing, and would never do what you suggest.” That’s the whole point of fictional characters… if they are written at all well, they act in accordance with their onw personality, ethics and motivations that are established in the text, so of course you can’t expect every character to be just like you.
@41,
Because Jon is a hero.
And heroes don’t abide with the slaughter of children, even if may be for the greater good.
@42, That answer works too!
@38 After reading an in-depth summary of the chapter, at least part of the reason he was incognito was because he didn’t want the others in his party to know that one of Mance’s mighty generals was a coward who deserted (which makes sense, since in a “the strong rule” society, that sort of thing would be frowned upon), but I definitely see your point. When his eagle was fried, causing him to collapse, that caused him to lose control of his bear and shadowcat, only leaving the three-animal wolfpack. If you set yourself up as a petty, rape-happy lordling in your own little world and you just lost a good portion of your “rules enforcement division”, it’d probably be a good idea to keep a very low profile.
@40 I wouldn’t think so. (roll over for spoilers) When Barristan was going undercover as Arsten Whitebeard, he was a support character, but didn’t have any POV chapters during that time period. To me, that’d be similar to saying Catelyn should count, as she’s now “Lady Stoneheart”, although she was Catelyn for all her POV chapters and hasn’t been seen in that capacity since dying for the first time. Which is probably for the best, as 10+ pages of “…..urrgggggg…..brrraaiiinnnns….frreeeyyyy brrraiiiinnnns…” would get tiresome.
(Moderator note: whited out potential spoilers.)
Chapter 7 – Jon:I think the phrase here is that Jon is “born again hard*”. Beheading Slynt seems to be the right move in the environment Jon finds himself and Stannis seems to agree.*** Jon completes several circles there as the first time we saw Ned was at a beheading and the last time we saw Ned was at a beheading. Hopefully that cirle will break and we won’t end up with visiting Jon at his beheading also.
The rest of the chapter shows that Jon is raising up to make hard choices and gives a little more insight to Sam leaving and Jon’s internal struggles. I’m not sure I really needed to see Jon’s internal struggles, but it was OK.
*”Private Pyle, you are definitely born again hard.” — Sergeant Hartman**, Full Metal Jacket
**Note that this does not necessarily work to Sergeant Hartman’s benefit.
***Having Stannis’ approval is not necessarily an indication of moral growth. Just sayin’.
And that the person who helped behead Ned, is the person who Jon beheads.
Have to say that, personally, I think that it was a mistake to make Slynt completely lacking in any qualities that would have explained his meteoric rise to an important position that most likely had been previously reserved for the nobles or at least knights with sufficiently high reputation and connections.
The Appendices of previous books reveal that position of the Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown is occupied by Mace’s uncle Ser Moryn Tyrell, for instance.
Even with LF’s backing (IMHO, YMMV), it seems really impausible that this inept fool could have risen so high from such humble beginnings.
Re: Jon becoming “hard” as evidenced by Slynt’s execution… I dunno. Slynt was basically the easiest option for Jon’s first execution, because Jon already hated him, fantasized about killing him and was only holding himself back because of his sense of propriety and duty. And now he has been handed a perfectly respectable and necessary reason to kill Slynt.
Robb had it much harder with Lord Karstark, who, if not a friend, had been a loyal supporter, whose sons had been his companions and died for him, etc.
Now, if/when Jon has to execute or severly punish somebody who had been a friend or at least a respected comrade-in-arms, then I’d say that he succeeded in “killing the boy” and became hard. Slynt was as easy as an execution could possibly be, IMHO.
In many ways you could view Jon killing Slynt as holding on to a childish vendetta.
Still don’t care. Satisfying as HELL.
Hell who’s to say Aemon’s right in the advice he gave Jon. Maybe what will save the world isn’t the hardened pragmatism of adults but the wide eyed idealism of children.
Sorry I’ve been delayed – world is too much with me and all that.
Fetch me a block is indeed satisfying – in some ways my favorite scene in the book. Apparently, GRRM wrote the chapter originally has having him hanged – and then later realized he should have used the block. The combination makes for a great scene.
Really enjoy all of the Jon becoming a leader bits in the book. All special. Of course, not that it means Jon is having an easy time of it.
Re the Tyrion chapter – wonderful world building and set up. That’s all I have to say about that.
Leigh – good luck with understanding the Griff thing.
“The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it.”
Isilel, my first thought is that slynt’t ascent can be explained by cersei’s influence. Didn’t she give him his position? Not because of his competence–cersei cares little for that and would probably be threatened by it if she could even recognize it–but because of his willingness to lick her boots and do whatever she says. An unimportant man is best for that, as he owes his position to her. If little finger orchestrated it it is because he knew cersei would eagerly use such a poor choice in this matter, and its not like little finger is acting to bring out the best in cersei or benefit her reign in any way. Slynt is just a pawn of many parties.
I like Jon, I really do, but I have so far found his arc one of the more tedious. I think of all the character arcs his just feels a little too forced, young man goes to place, rises to power, becomes decent leader, in not very much time, then does Politics. Since he seems on the front lines for these frozen zombies we have cause to grow increasingly worried about, I’m glad he’s leveling up and I expect his arc is gonna get plenty intesting if/when the frozen zombie thing gets worse…
Sophist @@@@@ 50
Isn’t this quote from Buffy? It curtainly applies for the folks in Westeros…
@52 Yes it’s from Buffy. Since he won’t toot his own horn, I will tell you that Sophist is the author of an incredible and extensive exploration of Buffy at a site called Unpaid Sophistry.
If Jon’s primary motivation was vengeance for Ned, he would not have given Slynt time to reconsider obeying orders at his first defiance. The problem for Jon is, what the heck do you do with Slynt, if not summary execution? Being sent to the Wall is already effectively a capital punishment to most of Westeros. Open, mocking defiance of the Lord Commander’s orders is not acceptable. If anything, it is a worse offense than desertion, as Synt’s refusal to carry out orders for the reasons he gives is a terrible undermining to the rest of the men that Jon has legitimate authority.
*blushes*
Thanks Aeryl, I’ll check it out.
Thanks for the heads-up, I’m reading Sophist’s blog right now. As a big fn of Buffy (and The Hunger Games, which get referenced a lot in the latest posts) this is a really nice find.
Chapter 8 – Tyrion:Tyrion continues to be charming or, at least, to be just not obnoxious enough to get killed out of hand. After the witty repartee with the minions (Duck & Haldon), Tyrion (and we) meet Griff. Or, Griff and young Griff, both of whom sport stylish blue hair. When Tyrion says:
I took the winged lions part to be a reference to Griffons and so I would guess that “Griff & Griff” are in some way related to some house with a Griffon as its heraldic emblem but I don’t recall offhand which one that might be.
I was also bemused by Tyrion’s use of the word snark. I wonder which snark will prove to be a boojum?
Grumkins and snarks is a callback to Tyrion’s similar statements to Jon Snow in AGOT.
Griff as having heraldric implications is an interesting idea… but not one I’m prepared to discuss here. Sorry.
While the other words refer to various mythical creatures, the word snark as a noun was invented by Lewis Carrol in 1876 for his poem “The Hunting of the Snark.”
It thus seems an interesting word for Tyrion to use as I am sure that GRRM is aware of this origin. Given this, it seems like a clue of something, but maybe I’m just attaching too much since I really like the poem.
(And, yeah, I never expect explicit direct answers to these musings. )
The Benjen Stark/Boojum Snark parallel has to be intentional, right?
RobMRobM@62:I hadn’t even thought of the Stark/Snark Benjen/Boojum parallels. It would be really interesting to know if GRRM had threads of this dancing away–at least in the background. Fun.
@62/63: I need to stop at the store for more tinfoil!!!
Tabbyfl55@64:lol.
But, for some reason it amuses me to imagine that GRRM has hinged the entirety of ASoIaF on THotS and then concealed that entirely within a couple of small word usages. Castles made of sand…
…and Jon with his vorpal (I mean Valyrian) sword in hand cuts off the head of the Janos Slynt, snickersnack.
See, it’s all there:!
Genius! Oh frabjous day!
I’m convinced. Let’s all co-post it on Reddit.
Thank you, once again, to Leigh and you Superlative Commentarians. I can’t express how much I look forward to each week’s insights and disparate perspectives. I learn so much from you – and with many a grin. Such. A. Treat. Many thanks.