Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 12 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 19 (“Davos”) and Chapter 20 (“Reek”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 19: Davos
What Happens
After having been a prisoner for two weeks, Davos is finally brought before (the enormously fat) Lord Wyman Manderly, in a crowded court that includes the Frey delegation. They try to make Davos kneel before Manderly, but Davos refuses, based on his status as Hand to the true King. Wyman’s daughter greets this with contempt, and Wyman calls him a smuggler. Davos points out that the Freys killed Wyman’s son, whereupon Ser Jared Frey claims that the Red Wedding was Robb Stark’s doing, that he turned into a wolf and killed Jinglebell, and that Ser Wendel had gotten in the way of Robb’s attempt on Walder Frey. Davos is astonished at the enormity of the lie, but Wyman Manderly seems to accept it wholeheartedly.
Wyman’s daughter, Leona, who is betrothed to Wylis (still held captive by the Lannisters) pushes to call Davos a traitor for speaking against the Iron Throne, but Davos insists that Tommen is a usurper, and not a true son of Robert Baratheon, and that therefore Robert’s brother Stannis has the truer claim to the throne. They demand proof of this from Davos, but he cannot give it. Leona further accuses Stannis and Davos of bringing an apostate sorceress to their shores. Davos does not want to defend Melisandre, and instead insists that many of Stannis’s followers still worship the Seven, himself included.
Wyman asks what Stannis can offer him in return for his allegiance, and Davos answers “the chance to do your duty,” because that’s what Stannis would have said. Ser Marlon, Wyman’s cousin, queries Davos about Stannis’s strength and allies, and when Davos falters, declares that allying with Stannis will only bring them “defeat and death.” Desperately, Davos counters that Stannis offers Wyman the chance for vengeance, for his son and for Robb Stark and Ned Stark and so many others. Wylla, Wyman’s granddaughter, pipes up in support of this, and reminds them that the Manderlys swore an oath to always be loyal to the Starks. The maester points out that the Starks are gone, and Wylla retorts “that’s because they killed them all!”
Rhaegar Frey interjects that Arya Stark is still alive, and on her way to wed Ramsay Bolton, and therefore Wylla should give her allegiance to Ramsay, as he will soon be Lord of Winterfell. Wylla counters that Ramsay made his last wife eat her own fingers, but Rhaegar claims that Robb Stark was the real monster, faithless and greedy, that he died like the “vile dog” he was, and that Tommen is the only hope for peace in Westeros. Wyman agrees with Rhaegar, and Wylla protests, but her mother hauls her out of the room. Wyman tells Davos he will never consider an alliance with Stannis, and calls for the guards to seize Davos. Davos protests that he is an envoy.
“Are you? You came sneaking into my city like a smuggler. I say you are no lord, no knight, no envoy, only a thief and a spy, a peddler of lies and treasons. I should tear your tongue out with hot pincers and deliver you to the Dreadfort to be flayed. But the Mother is merciful, and so am I.” He beckoned to Ser Marlon. “Cousin, take this creature to the Wolf’s Den and cut off his head and hands. I want them brought to me before I sup. I shall not be able to eat a bite until I see this smuggler’s head upon a spike, with an onion shoved between his lying teeth.”
Commentary
Well, that went well. Sheesh.
And now this makes the second chapter in a row where a character I like is on the brink of death and his fate is left hanging. Because Martin is a sadist, authorially speaking. THANKS, DUDE.
*grumble*
Well, I’m not thinking about it. Tyrion and Davos are alive until further notice. Because I Said So. Thhbbt.
But back to this, what the hell just happened? This entire chapter was like a demented farce on acid. It was like watching a trainwreck happen in slow motion, and I can’t even figure out how the train got derailed in the first place.
Seriously, WTF, over. The Freys are now claiming that Robb caused the Red Wedding? By turning into a wolf? And eating people? What is this I can’t even.
Holy shit. The sheer gall of the claim is nothing short of breathtaking. If you look up “World’s Most Outrageous Lie” in the dictionary and don’t find this, then that dictionary needs to be fired.
One thing’s for sure, Lord Wyman Manderly is absolutely not firing on all cylinders if he is actually buying this horseshit. Or (more likely) he isn’t buying it, and is just pretending to, in preference to risking allying with Stannis Of The Very Few Friends These Days.
It’s… sort of understandable, I guess, because it can’t be denied that Stannis (as Davos left him, anyway) had a distinct aroma of Sucker Bet about him, but that doesn’t make Manderly any less of a giant shit for abandoning his oaths to crawl into bed with the frickin’ Freys. And he knows it, too, hence his near-hysterical overreaction to Davos calling him out on it. Or least that’s how I’m reading it.
Too bad Davos didn’t know about Jon’s suggestion to Stannis about recruiting the mountain clans. That would have at least given him a leg to stand on. Not that I think it would have mattered, ultimately.
To the shock of precisely no one, I really liked Wylla in this chapter, and I hope we get to see more of her. And also that she figures out a way to get out of marrying a frickin’ Frey, because she deserves better.
“When Stark changed into a wolf, his northmen did the same. The mark of the beast was on them all. Wargs birth other wargs with a bite, it is well-known. It was all my brothers and I could do to put them down before they slew us all.”
HAHAHA okay, wow. So wargs are actual werewolves now. I am of course calling complete bullshit on this entire claim, because Freys (*spits*), but I still have to appreciate Martin tying his wargs into traditional werewolf lore nevertheless. Next we’ll hear that weapons made of silver can kill them, no doubt. Heh.
On a random note, it was sort of oddly sweet that the captain of the Merry Midwife waited an extra day before leaving. I mean, it might not have actually been because of Davos, but it probably was, and all things considered, that was… nice.
Lastly, I skipped over the description of the Merman’s Court in the summary, but it was, as usual, a vivid and evocative image. The further I go in reading this series, the more I get the impression that Martin is just doing whatever the hell he wants in designing whacko gonzo castles and temples and things that he thinks would be just effin’ cool to look at, and he is not wrong to think so. I look forward to eventually seeing if the HBO series does his set pieces any kind of justice, because wow there are some cool things to see if done right.
Chapter 20: Reek
What Happens
Bathed and dressed in good clothes and bearing a banner of peace, Reek rides from Lord Ramsay’s camp to Moat Cailin, and tries not to remember riding the same way with Robb Stark’s army as a different man. Lord Ramsay had promised him a place among his dogs and meat every day if he succeeded in his task. He approaches by the only passable road, which is littered with corpses. At the gate, he is first challenged, but then hustled inside when the bog men begin shooting at him from the swamp.
Inside, he “lies” to the guard that he is Lord Balon’s son, and says he was sent to treat with them. It becomes clear that the few remaining ironmen in the fort are rotting away, gradually succumbing to disease and snakebites and despair. The guard takes him to their nominal commander, who is nearly dead from an infected wound. Reek orders the guard to kill him, and then does it himself, and has the guard take him to the hall, where two dozen of the ironmen are drinking. Reek notes that they are mostly Codds, who are not well regarded in the islands.
He tells them he brings them an offer of safe passage home if they surrender Moat Cailin to Lord Ramsay. One of the men, Dagon Codd, takes umbrage and declares that ironmen do not surrender, and that Victarion had told them to hold until his return. Reek tells them that Euron is king, not Victarion, and he is never coming back for them. Dagon calls him a liar and a turncoat, and is about to attack him when one of the other men, Adrack Humble, kills Dagon with a throwing axe. Reek realizes he has won, and returns to Lord Ramsay with the remaining fifty-eight ironmen who are still able to travel.
Ramsay sends the ironmen off to be fed, and kisses Reek and tells him he has earned a reward. He offers to send Reek back to the islands with the others, but Reek senses the trap in the offer, and answers that he is Ramsay’s Reek, and wants only to serve him, and perhaps some wine. Ramsay laughs and says he will make Reek one of his dogs. He orders a collar made for Reek, and sends him to sleep with his hounds, but also gives him chicken and sour wine. Reek drinks himself into a stupor, only briefly woken by the sounds of screams in the camp. He wakes the next morning to see that Ramsay had had all the ironmen impaled on pikes along the road.
Three days later the vanguard of Roose Bolton’s forces arrive, with two of Lord Walder’s sons and Roose himself. Collared and chained, Reek rides with Ramsay to greet his father. Reek sees how his eyes are like his son’s; he remembers how Theon Greyjoy had taunted Roose and thinks the boy must have been mad. Roose greets Ramsay, and then produces the two women traveling with him: Lady Walda, Roose’s new wife, and Ramsay’s betrothed, Arya Stark. Reek sees her and knows that the girl is not Arya Stark at all, but Sansa’s old companion, Jeyne Poole.
“Lord Ramsay.” The girl dipped down before him. That was wrong as well. The real Arya Stark would have spat into his face. “I pray that I will make you a good wife and give you strong sons to follow after you.”
“That you will,” promised Ramsay, “and soon.”
Commentary
NO JEYNE RUN RUN LIKE HELL
Well, so now I know who the fake Arya is, and of COURSE it couldn’t be someone random, but a character I know for sure never in a million years deserved to be within a hundred yards of Ramsay Bolton. Not that any woman—or any human being regardless of gender for that matter—deserves that, but ugh, jeez. Poor, poor Jeyne Poole!
I don’t know which possibility is worse: that she doesn’t know yet what kind of man she’s (maybe) about to marry, or that she does. Oh, ew, the whole thing is making me feel like I have spiders crawling on me and also like I might cry just on principle.
Of course, given that Reek/Theon also instantly knew that Fake Arya is indeed a fake, this marriage may or may not be happening anyway. Not that I think her fate is likely to be much better if the ruse is exposed—except in the sense that being executed might be—no, scratch that, is definitely—a better fate than getting married to Ramsay Bolton. As long as Ramsay himself isn’t allowed to do the executing, that is.
I don’t really know what’s likely to happen here should Reek decide to spill the beans, because I’m having trouble remembering who exactly set this con up in the first place. I’m assuming Roose is in on it, in which case he might prevent Ramsay from killing/torturing Jeyne in a fit of rage at learning she’s a fake, but if I’m wrong about that then who knows.
I’m also not totally convinced that Reek is actually going to spill the beans. I would have thought it was a done deal before, but this chapter shows that whatever Reek consciously believes, his inner Theon may not be quite as thoroughly stamped out as he and Ramsay think it is, and this knowledge represents possible leverage. There’s also the point that if Roose is in on the scheme, he is likely to be extremely put out with anyone who mucks it up, and Reek may be still be savvy enough to realize this.
Then again, it’s probably all a moot point if Ramsay straight up asks Reek to confirm “Arya’s” identity, because while I can speculate that Reek might have the sense not to volunteer the information, I have a lot more trouble imagining that he would be able to lie to Ramsay’s face about it. Reek might not be all the way broken, but he is still plenty broken.
In conclusion, I don’t know what’s going to happen, except that whatever it is, I am unlikely to enjoy it. Since I’m pretty sure my fantasy of Roose and Ramsay getting into a fight over it and mutually impaling each other and dying slow painful deaths while Jeyne runs off and somehow magically finds someplace to live happily ever after (not that those actually exist in Westeros, but anyway) and Theon… well, maybe he can go find peace mucking stables in a monastery with Sandor, or something. I never liked Theon, but I think that whatever sins he committed, he has by now more than paid for them, so I can’t bring myself to wish him a bad end anymore.
Not that it matters, because none of that is going to happen anyway. Blarg.
Fuckin’ Boltons, man.
As a side note, even with everything else, I still had to grin at Theon’s certainty that Arya would have spit in Ramsay’s face, because YES SHE WOULD HAVE. Damn straight. *is proud*
In other news, Reek’s little day trip to Moat Cailin had some of the grossest imagery I can remember offhand in this series, even though I’m sure that’s just because I’ve successfully blocked out some of Martin’s more colorful renderings of just how disgusting medieval-ish life can get. Still, the description of the commander guy’s end-stage gangrene has got to be up there in the top five or so, because eeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
I have to wonder if at least some of the ironmen weren’t perfectly well aware that Ramsay Bolton was absolutely going to be a horrendous pustule of a backstabbing asshole and kill them all, and decided it was still a better deal than staying their post. I’m… not sure I would disagree, if so. Not that it would excuse Ramsay being a horrendous pustule of a backstabbing asshole, because ugh.
Seriously, that dude needs to die, and soon.
And on that cheerful note, we out! Have a week, and I’ll see you next Thursday!
*Harumph*
When I worked for hospital security, it was our responsibilty to restrain difficult patients.
I remember one homeless woman who had been committed to the psych ward, and they were having to wait on paperwork to operate on her, because she was refusing to allow them to amputate her gangrenous foot. She was also a very problematic patient, and were explicitly ordered that we COULD NOT apply a restraint to her foot, because there was all likelihood it would FALL OFF.
I’d never smelled anything so disgusting and rancid in my life.
Don’t have anything to add to this, except yes Manderly’s granddaughter is THE BEST. Honestly this series has some of the best women characters.
The Merman’s Court is the most beautiful room in Westeros, and I just want to go there and sit staring around at the murals. Or, y’know, give sermons. Preferably when no annoying Freys (that’s redundant) are in the vicinity, unless I can stab them with a Manderly trident.
No, really. On every read, I nearly cry at the description of its beauty.
Otherwise, this chapter is depressing. Poor Wylla. Poor Wyman. Poor, poor Davos.
Note: Leona is Wyman’s daughter-in-law (aka “good-daughter”), married to Wylis and mother of Wynafryd (the older girl here) and Wylla.
Boltons, man, indeed. They give the Freys a run for their money, to be sure. I have words about Ramsay, but alas! they are spoilery, so. Let us say that reading about Ramsay requires intestinal fortitude, a requirement that has and will remain constant….
Reek/Theon I sometimes suspect is Martin’s bet with himself to see how low he can push a character before attempting his “redemption” (for various twisted definitions of redemption) – even more so than Jaime, the other candidate that comes immediately to mind. I guess everyone will have to judge for themselves if or how well he succeeds.
Leigh, GRRM has said that he created the series back in the 1990s because he got fed up with the restriction television put on him (in the 80s he was a screenwriter). That’s one of the reasons there are so many great sceneries and wonderful castles in Westeros, not to mention many armies fighting, etc. All things that are expensive to make on TV.
Sadly, the TV series doesn’t recreate most castles as GRRM envisioned them or it’s a very smaller and less wonderful version of them. I know it’s because of budget reasons, but I still am quite sad.
@5:
Or, its because such places don’t actually exist, so it would all have to be CG, and then NO ONE would be happy. Because CG sets suck eggs.
@5 That said, I personally think the HBO series has nevertheless done a generally fantastic job with art direction. The costumes and sets are by and large amazing, even when they aren’t close copies of the book-described scenes, and head and shoulders above the usual cheap fantasy knock-offs.
So Leigh, have the Boltons surpassed the Freys as your least favorite people in Westeros yet? As much as you dislike Tywin, at least he was better than Roose, Ramsey, or Walder (or Jared or Rhaegar Frey).
The Davos chapter brought us a little closer to the end of his storyline catching up to the other storylines. In Kings Landing, we had last heard that he was killed by Lord Manderly and his head and hands displayed on spikes(in AFFC). Here. we see him condemned to just that.
Wylla Manderly is awesome. I like the Manderlys in general, but we can talk more about that later in this book. I have high hopes for them in the books GRRM hasn’t written yet, I can’t wait to spend more time with them.
Theon er….I mean Reek. Wow. Every time I read about his experience with the Boltons it just makes me a little bit sicker. I find his chapters in this book some of the hardest to read of anything I’ve ever laid eyes on, even as I appreciate the writing. I don’t dislike his chapters, but I find them hard to swallow. They’re just a little too disturbing, and I have a very high tolerance for disturbing things.
We actually learned about Jayne Poole being propped up as fake Arya all the way back in ASOS, in a Brienne chapter, when Jaime told her that the girl being sent to wed Ramsey Snow was not the real Arya, so Brienne shouldn’t waste her time trying to save her. Then in AFFC, in a Cersei chapter, Cersei recalled how Littlefinger dressed up a “steward’s whelp” to be Arya Stark. It’s worth noting that Jaime said that the Boltons already know that she is fake, but they don’t care, since her whole family is (belived to be) dead except for Sansa, who would be killed if found, and Jon, who’s at the Wall.
You are correct, Wylla is awesome. I was so happy to have someone in that chapter yell some common sense. I was especially happy to see it was a young woman. I hope she picks up some tricks from Arya and figures out how to use the pointy end before her wedding night, cuz yuck…
Yeah, the scenes in and around Moat Cailin are grim indeed. How badass are the crannogmen, thriving in that swamp?
“Dear little Ramsay is positively made of badwrongno.” – Leigh, ASOS. A good start on describing the Semirhage of Westeros.
“Everything is terrible and it’s always Halloween.” – UNspoiled chapter heading
They also contrasted Roose’s style of destructiveness with Ramsay’s, likening Roose to a hawk or lightning bolt and Ramsey to a cat or hurricane. Accurate, I think. And Brendan noted the weirdness of feeling glad when Reek shows hints of his old identity – and then remembering that he’d hated Theon. Yeah.
Leona is not Wyman’s daughter, just his daughter-in-law. The Manderlys are not Targaryens. ;-) She’s Wylis’ wife and the mother of Wylla and Wynafryd (the Manderlys sure love the W names!).
Jaime believed that the Boltons were aware that “Arya Stark” was a fake. Or at least Roose should be, since he was the one who negotiated the deal with Tywin, after Littlefinger supposedly “found” Arya. Roose probably doesn’t care, he just needs to maintain the ruse (ha!) to justify the Bolton takeover of Winterfell in the eyes of the northern lords.
I wonder if Roose will ever find out that he had the real Arya as his cupbearer “Nan” in Harrenhal. How smart it was of Arya not to have revealed herself to him!
I think Theon is actually wrong. The 9-year old Arya he used to know would have indeed spat in his face, but the present 11-year old Arya, with the experience of Harrenhal behind her, would know to act much smarter. She would make herself look meek and contrite, and then look for the first chance to stab Ramsay and find a way to get away.
@6, Actually, the CGI shots of the Red Keep have been wonderful
Whether Wyman believes the Freys or not, he pretty much doesn’t have a choice except to act as if he does, if he wants his son back alive. So: sacrifice his only remaining son’s life, in order to fight for… the Starks are gone, Stannis means nothing to him… or give up honor to have his son returned to him. We know what choice Ned made when it came down to a choice between truth/honor and his child.
I think the iron men probably at least considered the possibility that it was a trap and they’d be killed, but knew for sure that if they stayed they’d die, so it was still their best chance. I doubt they suspected the staking-and-flaying part, though.
And oh, Jeyne Poole. That poor poor girl. Taken captive along with Sansa in the very first book, handed over to Littlefinger, and then not seen again until Jaime saw her being sent off to Ramsay in AFFC. I bet the intervening time was just lovely for her. And what she’s facing now… Gah.
Wow, what fun chapters! *sarcasm* I’d love to see a spin off book where teenage kickass teenagers Lyanna Mormont and Wylla Manderly travel around Westeros doing good deeds.
And while we’re at it, the Boltons and Freys can play Survivor on the Isle of Skagos, fighting each other to the last man – who will then be either eaten by the cannibals or stabbed by the unicorns.
The Ironborn festering sores are a grim testament to the guerilla fighting skills of Stark allies the Reeds. Howland FTW!
No arguments here. Ramsay needs to die real soon.
Chapter 19 – Davos:That didn’t go very well. The Frey’s are adopting the Big Lie policy. Hope that ends up biting them more firmly than their imaginary werewolves.
I find it unlikely that GRRM is actually going to just kill off Davos because, well that would be a lot of chapters I’d never get back. So, somehow, I expect a substitution to occur.
Wylla seems cool and smart and I want to subscribe to her newsletter.
Re: “Martin tying his wargs into traditional werewolf lore”
This is amusing in a different way if you’ve read Martin’s werewolf novella (The Skin Trade) and his vampire novel (Fevre Dream), where he makes it very clear that the “you become one if they bite you” part of that lore is bullshit, and the only way to be a vampire or werewolf is to be born that way. Which is true of wargs too, so this is really another case of Martin making fun of monster traditions.
I’m not commenting as often as I used to because it’s very easy to turn everything into a boring rant about what I dislike about DWD, but this seems like an appropriate time to make a point.
One of the best things about the first three books was the way the villains very rarely fell into the For The Evulz trap. Joffrey was insane, but the other Lannisters most decidedly weren’t, and ultimately Joffrey wasn’t in charge despite his title. Tywin was evil, but there was method to his evil which was actually justifiable in one sense: he truly believed Joffrey was Robert’s lawful and legitimate heir, and therefore the entire rebellion was illegal. The Mountain and the Bloody Mummers were pawns, not players.
The Cersei of FFC is frankly insane, but in a very understandable way, and her deterioration was something earned by following her over the course of the previous 2,000 pages. She was horrible, but in a very believably human way. Even as she crossed the moral event horizon, she still felt like a human being.
Starting with the Iron Islands in FFC, though, the antagonists just feel more and more cartoonish to me. And now with Ramsey and the Freys and the Ghiscari, I’m starting to find their Evil League of Evil antics a little boring. I don’t need sympathetic villains (which can be just as easily overdone) – but I do need interesting ones.
I was expecting to read Wylla’s kickass speech here and was disappointed. So I am going to paste it here in the comments, hah!
Regarding the lies the Freys tell in this chapter, it reminded me of Hitler’s and the nazis attitude at the beginning of WW2.
[annexes Austria]
What? I’m just content with Austria. Mussolini, UK, other powers, believe that. I’m no threat to you.
[annexes Sudetenland]
What? The Czechs and slovaks are oppressing our German brothers. I just want their lives to be better. So if you let me get just the Sudetenland, I promise I won’t want anything anymore.
[annexes what remains of Czech lands and creates Slovak puppet state]
What? All of Czechslovakia’s neighbours agreed to attack the country. Look, I just annexed the Czech parts. Slovakia declared independence and I fully support them. They obey me, but they’re not part of Germany. I’m a man of peace, you can believe me, especially you Franklin Roosevelt.
[attacks Poland, divides it with the Soviet Union]
What? The Polish are mistreating the Germans. Some of them even attacked a German radio station. You can hear them doing terrible deeds in fluent Polish! I can’t let that abide, so, against my will, we have to go to war. That deal I made with Stalin? Nothing to do with what happened here. Not at all. I’m a man of peace, if the UK and France think the best course is declare war on me, then I have to defend my country against such aggression.
And so on, and so on. Basically, the Freys are taking the Goebbels-Hitler way of lying 1,000 times to make it seem the truth.
@18, I wish I could feel that Ramsay’s villainy was unrealistic, but unfortunately, he’s the most real out of all the villains to me.
In regards to your query wondering if the Ironborn had a clue what was up and preferred death (flaying and then impalement, I believe; just impaling people is way too nicey-nicey for Ramsey) to their post, my guess is no, since it had been noted before that when Victarion left Moat Cailin, he took anyone worth anything with him and left the dregs of the dregs. I seem to recall they were described somewhere as stupid even by the Ironborn “books is fer sissy-boys” mentality. Which might explain their “uh, our leaders is on his death bed and we have no one to tell us what to do…so we’ll just sit here and hope someone does at some point” way of doing things.
It’s always fun to compare Ramsey and Roose. Ramsey is just all pure undistilled WRONG, while Roose is more entertaining to read, as he’s got this sort of subtleness where he seems kind of normal (if pragmatically ruthless along the way Tywin was), but if you pay attention to the setting, what’s going on around him and how he’s reacting, he comes off as, if anything, more WRONG than Ramsey. Like in the “legit most scary man in Westeros” sort of way.
As for Davos’ chapter, that was just one of those “bad to worse and worse and worse and so on” things. The Freys beat him to Manderly. Manderly has a son held hostage by the Lannister-Frey-whomever forces. With the exception of one member of Manderly’s family, everyone is acting in said son’s best interests as far as staying alive goes. And to make matters worse, it seemed like every time someone there asked Davos a tough question about Stannis and his plans, he froze up to some degree.
It was the perfect storm for one of those “according to other POVs, he was executed…so let’s see how that all came to be” sessions. You have to give Davos credit for courage and loyalty, as most people probably would have seen that writing on the wall and figured it’d be best to not get anywhere near a situation with that much of a likelihood for total disaster.
I can’t remember – was Wylla the one that wrote the rejection letter to Stannis from earlier?
I always imagine that letter being written in purple crayon, with the i’s dotted with stars or smiley faces, and sealed with some glitter. And with Stannis getting glitter all over his clothes when he reads it.
Warren Zevon FTW!
Lately he’s been overheard in Mayfair …
S
Chapter 20 – Reek:The Bolton’s have been very firmly established as bad people. Reek has been thoroughly established as a broken shell and now Jeyne is firmly established as being in a very bad place. When madmen are given power and their restraints removed, bad things happen.
Jon has been proven correct in that Moat Cailin wasn’t much of an obstacle.
#18: I disagree. I find Euron unintentionally ridiculous (Victarion was intentionally written to be a silly clueless idiot), but Ramsay is a very-well written and interesting villain, IMO. More about that when we get to the next chapters featuring the Boltons. The Freys we see here are just jerks and very average people, nowhere near the Big Bad status, and they’re lying shamelessly just the way that politicians often do in real life. The Ghiscari are far better fleshed out and more nuanced in ADWD than in ASOS.
I won’t say much just yet except that the entire northern storyline in ADWD is fantastic, IMO.
When I read Ramsay’s exploits, they always reminds me of Vlad Tepes (Dracula), Elizabeth Bathory, and other lesser known nobles and rich people that got off killing and torturing slaves/serfs/enemies. Vlad Tepes at least had the excuse of using terror as a tactic against a much superior enemy force (Turks, Germans, Hungarians and treasonous Romanian boyars), the others were just sadists. Wikipedia lists a few others. So, people like Ramsay did exist in real life. We know the name of those who were caught. Others were never, and those probably are the origins of legends of werewolves and vampires.
Skin Trade is being adapted into a film or miniseries coming up. Great story and should make a great flick. Stay tuned.
@22: We shouldn’t forget that most people outside the North have no idea what kind of monster Ramsay is. In ACOK, we learned that he already had the reputation of a terrible human being in the North, due to his “hunts” with his companion, the original Reek, and then especially due to what he did to Lady Hornwood. But while the Hornwood affair was a big deal in the North, it didn’t even register in most of the rest of Westeros, which was dealing with the War of the Five Kings. The sack and burning of Winterfell, on the other hand, is something that the entire Westeros knows about, but everyone believes Theon and the ironborn did it, and that Ramsay then captured Theon and ‘saved’ the women and children of Winterfell that Theon hadn’t put to the sword. Even Ramsay’s torture of Theon is not widely known – Cat and Robb learned about it in ASOS when Roose told them and wanted to give Cat a strip of Theon’s skin, arguing it was what the turncloak deserved and that she would like it for revenge at the man who murdered her sons Bran and Rickon. (Of course, Roose and Ramsay know that Bran and Rickon are alive.) But these ironborn clearly had no idea about Ramsay’s treatment of Theon – he even told them that Lord Ramsay would be as fair to them as he had been to him.
@27: Ramsay is a classic serial killer, but one who doesn’t bother to hide his crimes because he can get away with what he does because of his, or rather, his father’s power. The medieval figure that most easily comes to mind as comparable to him is Gilles de Rais.
That passage of Wylla’s is one of the most often quoted in the series, it was certainly very cool.
Have a good weekend Leigh.
@20 Or Vladimir Putin’s attitude to Ukraine right now…
Annara @11 – Arya was never Roose’s cupbearer was she? Wasn’t she Tywin’s or is that a showism?
Speaking of showisms and kickass girls, the girl from Kickass would be a good choice to play Wylla.
@tabby, Yes, that’s a showism.
@17 While in my recollection you are correct about the vampires in Fevre Dream, I think in the Skin Trade you could become a werewolf by being bitten. The issue was (a) “purebread” or hereditary werewolves percived themselves as being of higher social status; and (b) modern antibiotics tend to kill the werewolf germs, so becoming a werewolf accidentally by infection is rare. That being said, the paraplegic werewolf had asked to be bitten so she could become a werewolf and run again.
@23 – No, that was Lyanna Mormont. She’s awesome too.
Leigh, not everyone with the last name Frey is necessarily awful.
I mean, there have to have been good people in that family, people who were innocent. Who were sent away in the months before the Red Wedding.
Heck, I won’t name names, but there was one frey who was a squire to Robb who wanted to stay with Robb even after he married Jeyne. Grey Wind liked that one, despite disliking certain other Freys. Said Frey was sent away by his family in the months before the Red Wedding, as was another frey who was a loyal knight to Catelyn.
Should I white this out? I know Leigh doesn’t like to be told of things she has forgotten.
Skin Trade was excellent. If I remember right the “purebred” were also unfortunately rather inbred.
I used to know a guy who had genuinely gone to Lee Ho Fook and had a big dish of beef chow mein. Wasn’t a werewolf though, as far I know.
My hair is perfect.
New headcanon: Wylla died her hair green in imitation of the merman on the Manderly sigil. Alternately, her family tolerates it because they think that’s why she did it.
Freys of the Day:
Jared: Old Walder’s fourth son, by a Swann. As he says here, his son and son-in-law were both killed at the Red Wedding, each leaving behind a spouse and two underage children.
Symond: Old Walder’s seventh son, full brother to the late Merrett and thus uncle to Wylla’s fiance (and Ramsay’s squire) Little Walder. Braavosi wife, three children. His teenage daughter Alyx had been among those “offered” to Robb.
Rhaegar: Son of Old Walder’s third son Aenys. A widower with three children aged 8-13.
I don’t remember which of them mentioned the death of his “cousin Jinglebell” at the RW — Jared, I think? — but it should’ve been Rhaegar, since Jared and Symond are Jinglebell’s half-uncles.
@40: I wonder if most people read the appendices. I always used them while reading in order to keep all the minor characters and their family relations straight. But the Frey family line was the one I started reading and then just glossed over on my first read. On my re-read of ASOS, however, where I was trying to pick up more details, I read it more carefully, and while it’s complicated, it is entertaining in its own way. The naming is especially funny – some of them really like to give the names of the royal family or the great lords who are in power at the moment. Rhaegar Frey is an example of that – he seems to have been born during the reign of Aerys II, when Rhaegar was the crown-prince. His father also had a Targaryen name, Aenys, and Rhaegar’s elder brother is Aegon (an outlaw, known as “Bloodborn”), who, just like Aegon “Jinglebell”, may have been old enough to be born during the reign of king Aegon V, or perhaps the “Bloodborn” Aegon was born during the short reign of Aegon V’s son Jaehaerys II and was named n honor of the king’s dead father. The Targaryen names then just happen to disappear with the younger generations of Freys (gee, I wonder why…), but Rhaegar Frey has a son called Robert (!), and in the Frey family tree, there are also children/teenagers called Tywin, Hoster and Cersei, as well two other Roberts (one of them was 16 year old in ASOS, so probably born right after Robert’s Rebellion). But to be fair, it’s just the minority of Freys who are obsessed with such names – most of them, when they are sucking up to someone, are sucking up their patriarch and giving their children names “Walder” and “Walda” (Rhaegar Frey himself has a daughter called Walda).
Ah yes, Ser Tytos Frey and Ser Garse Goodbrook, the husband of Jared’s daughter Kyra. I just re-read the ASOS epilogue a couple of days ago, and noticed a minor detail I had not the first time – Merrett mentions Tytos and Kyra’s husband Garse Goodbrook as their main losses (other than poor Jinglebell, killed by Catelyn) – and adds that someoen smashed Tytos’ head in with an axe. Well, now we know who it most probably was that killed Tytos, and probably Garse Goodbrook, too! Tytos was probably one of the three Frey riders Sandor fought when he and Arya crashed the Red Wedding – the one that Arya hit with a rock, so he tried to catch her, and Sandor smashed his head with an axe. It’s ironic that Merrett told the Brotherhood about Tytos’ and Garse’s deaths not shortly after they asked him if he knew where Sandor Clegane was and if he had seen him with a child at the Red Wedding – he had no idea he was practically giving them an answer!
Speaking of Sandor and of Frey names, there’s also a 12-year old squire called Sandor Frey who’s squiring for Ser Donnel Weynwood in the Vale, since he’s a Weynwood on his mother’s side. Wow, that combination of names is probably going to cause some weird feelings in Sansa if/when she meets the boy (and I bet she will, just to react to his name, or else why GRRM would have named a minor character that). There’s also his younger sister Cynthea, fostered with Lady Anya Weynwood, and another Frey in the Vale is a maester called Willamen, serving house Hunter; there’s a septon called Luceon in King’s Landing; a Frey bastard, Maester Melwyn, at Rosby; 13-year old Wendel Frey fostered at Seagard with the Mallisters; 16-year old Robert Frey, in training at the Citadel in Oldtown; 15-year old Malwyn, apprentice to an alchemist in Lys (Robert and Malwyn are sons of Raymund Frey, who slit Catelyn’s throat); 14-year old Red Walder, a squire at Casterly Rock, and Robert Brax, Frey on his mother’s side, fostered as page at Casterly Rock; and Jared’s grandson Zachery is being trained at a sept in Oldtown. I wonder how many of those many Freys scattered all around Westeros, and even Essos, will we ever get to meet.
@38 Steve- I lived in London for a year, and of course I too, have had the beef chow mein. Pretty tasty ;)
WTF from now on means ‘What The Frey’ to me. Thanks Leigh.
Hey Leigh, if you want to feel better, how about this?: Leigh. Leigh, it rhymes with free.
A good start on describing the Semirhage of Westeros.
Semirhage is smarter than Ramsay. He doesn’t really care if his tortures interfere with his family’s goals. Roose is more dangerous because he knows when to restrain himself tries to restrain Ramsay when politics demands it.
@41 Don’t forget the one in Braavos (Bradamar, Bradamyr?) fostered with a merchant there. Future run-in with Arya, perhaps? Also, Septon Luceon we’ve already met – he’s the one who almost became High Septon.
But yes, Sandor Frey is my favorite Chekhov’s Frey.
Ah Leigh, finally on the same page ;) It’s really a great read, thanks for that. I started reading the books 4 months ago and reading your blog on the side and was looking forward to the point where I can finally start commenting on the blog. So, let’s start:
There was the Bran-Chapter shortly after the Red Wedding where he tells the Tale of the Rat Cook, who was only made a rat, because he broke the laws of hospitality (not because he fed someone his son). Since then I always thought, the Freys will get their payback. And this story they tell fits into that. This story is so ridiculous and mean, that I’m sure nobody believes it. It’s an insult to the Starks and as the North is very loyal to them in general, I don’t think it sits well with them. IMHO the North is or is going to do something against them, not just because of the Red Wedding but also because of that. I smell conspiracy. At least I hope for it, but we know what Martin does to our hopes…
And the Boltons, really don’t know what to say about them, expect “ugh”. As far as I can remember, everyone in the north knows what kind of guy Ramsay is, the tales about him were mentioned often enough.
I think the Fake Arya was their idea and one of the reasons Theon was kept alive and “trained”. I expect a discussion with Ramsay, where he tells Theon in his subtle way, that this is Arya and he should be happy for him, because now he is more legitimate as warden of the north. And Theon will understand and play his part. Or he rescues Jeyne and they live happily ever after…as if.
And to killing the Ironborn: none of them could read, maybe Ramsay knew that and never promised them anything but death in the letter. Doesn’t make him a better person though.
Wylla is great, hope to see more of her.
@@@@@ 18 I agree with you. That’s one of the reasons i don’t enjoy this book as much as the last ones. Also because it’s almost 2/3 in and the chapters still feel like a very cruel introduction to something that is still not coming.
So now I’m going to continue reading, but without reading your blog after every chapter, makes me a little sad.
@41: AFFC is the only ASOIAF book I have on paper, but I’ve read the appendix many times. I find House Frey especially fascinating, since they’re related to so many families and found in so many places, as you noted. (Unlike Targs, who are related to as few other families as posssible) It specifies that Tytos Frey was indeed killed by Sandor. Jinglebell, Garse Goodbrook, and Roslin’s brother Benfrey (Benfrey Frey? Sheesh) are the others noted there to have died at the RW.
@43: Now I’m going to do that too.
@45: True, but Roose doesn’t seem to get off on torturing people. I still think that if Westeros had a Society of Sadists (S.O.S), Ramsay would lead it. At one point, I might’ve pegged Qyburn for the job…echoing Lews Therin’s mistaken thoughts about Aginor. >_>
@46: Bradamar, ten-year-0ld son of Symond.
Oooh, thanks for all the Frey information, Annara (and others). It’s been awhile since I read through the appendices so I’ve forgotten a lot of these little details. I wonder if there will be redemption for any of the Freys (or which ones will escape Catelyn’s wrath)…
We can’t forget Raymund Frey, Walder’s 11th son. He’s the one who kills Cat, but he also has kids named “Cersei”, “Tywin” and “Jaime”. I guess Tyrion doesn’t warrant a namesake.
I do love the discussion of the Freys as I get frustrated sometimes with the attitude that all Freys should die. There are definitely “good” Freys. Robb certainly spoke highly of the late Stevron Frey. People have mentioned Olyvar, Robb’s squire, but there’s also Perwyn (Olyvar & Roslin’s full brother) who gets a good review from Daven Lannister. And let’s not forget Fat Walda and Gatehouse Ami, who both seem kinda fun.
Emmon Frey is kind of a jackass, but Cleos was nice, if a bit dull. We don’t know what their other remaining children are like, but with Genna as a mom they have a fair chance of being fun, cool people not deserving horrible deaths.
@48, WHITED OUT IN CASE OF SPOILERS
No, Roose, TOTALLY gets off on hurting people, or why else rape Ramsey’s mother
It amuses me to think of Robert, Cersei, Jaime, and Tywin as siblings.
And Lame Lothar, who largely engineered the RW, has four little daughters aged newborn-7. Sigh. That’s one difference between ASOIAF and WOT — most of the WOT baddies don’t have families that we kow of.
As of AFFC’s beginning, Old Walder’s trueborn descendents include at least 31 children aged 10 or under. Just one reason I don’t espouse the All Freys Must Die (and Soon) sentiment.
///That said, the Pie Incident pleases me inordinately///.
That’s one of those things that’s so intriguing for this series to me.
In a fantasy series where family traits are immutable, as they are in this one, does our modern idea that they shouldn’t be held responsible for the sins of their family apply?
Sure there are good Freys. There are good Lannisters too. There are no good Boltons though, from what we can tell. Mostly, we’re shown how these traits of ruthlessness, sadism and greed breed true. So, is there a moral and ethical argument to be made that families that seem predisposed towards acts of evil should be eradicated? Or is it the dynastic system that creates this flaws within people? Was Joffrey the result of incest caused madness or indulgent and negligent parenting on behalf of Cersei, Robert and Jaime? If it was parenting, should we ensure Cersei never has any more children, something that my feminism demands I should reject, but in my world, terrible parents can have their children taken away to be raised by others. Who could take custody of Cersei’s children from her?
Our modern world has made the idea that you aren’t responsible for the people you are related to, and the idea that no one but the individual should control their fertility. But what is the worth of these ideas in a world without our safeguards?
@51: Roslin clearly felt terrible about what was going to happen, since she was crying during the wedding, but she wasn’t in the position to stop it, and unlike her brothers, she had no option of staying away. I always felt sorry for her, and it also shows what a [insert choice insults, I can’t think of strong enough ones] Walder Frey is, to use one of his daughters like that. I’m pretty sure that “being used as a bait so your family could murder the family of your new husband and imprison him” is no girl’s dream of her wedding day and losing her virginity.
@53:
Almost anyone can become a sociopath given the right set of circumstances. It doesn’t need to be genetic predisposition. Environment is a huge player, as well. These families grow up far less incorporated into a larger, more diverse community than we do. Its really not that much of a stretch to think that certain traits, especially ones that run in the “I can do this because my family is ______ and you don’t matter because your family isn’t,” can run true through a family without it being a matter of genetics.
Take the same child away at birth and give them to the Starks, and they will probably behave as the Stark children do. After all, Theon only looks bad until you meet the rest of his family. And he was, what, 7 or 8 when Ned took him on as a ward?
@53:
The other children show no signs of Joff’s particular madness. Which doesn’t really lead to any conclusions, other than that Cersei maybe wasn’t a completely horrible mother, since the other ones aren’t as messed up.
@53 – Domeric Bolton was good by any definition.
I think there are good, bad, and grey characters in every family. And yeah, it is almost chilling when you realize how many of the Freys are just little kids. Gods help them.
@55,
It doesn’t need to be genetic predisposition.
I agree, in the real world.
But THIS story isn’t set in the real world. There is magic, and inheritable traits.
The things I’m talking about are atrocious in our world. But are they atrocious in GRRM’s world? The messed up thing about the medieval world was that they THOUGHT this was the way the world worked, and they were wrong. GRRM took that, and made a story about a medieval world where that IS the way the world works.
And as far as the other Lannister children, well the impression I got is she was benignly neglectful of them since they weren’t going to bring her the prestige she craved.
@47 JuliaStark:
You could always read along at Leigh’s pace, just like S.Halter, who apparently has the patience of a glacier.
@59: :-)
@53: What makes you think that “family traits are immutable” in ASOAIF? Tell me one family in ASOAIF that doesn’t include completely different people. Domeric and Ramsay, similar? Joffrey and Tommen/Myrcella? Cat, Lysa, Edmure and Blackfish? Ned, Brandon and Lyanna? Dany and Viserys? Aerys andd Rhaella? Daeron the Drunk, Aerion Brightflame, Maester Aemon and Egg? Sam and his father Randyll? I could go on.
Not to mention the historical examples. Forrest Frey (in TWOAIF) seems to have been one of the most loyal, least petty people during the Dance of the Dragons. Should we hate the Starks because of all the messed up things the Kings of Winter were doing to their enemies?
@56: The other two kids tended to be ignored to an extent by Cersei actually. Joffrey was the one that got the most attention of Cersei compared to his siblings which gives a hint where he got some of his vicious streak from.
I also am not sure I can say that I have the same hypothesis about family traits being immutable. Some of it may be influenced by genetics being passed on, but I think a lot of it is also the environment that allows these characters to act in this way with no real consequences.
Regarding the Lannister children, perhaps being neglected was one of the best things to happen to Tommen and Myrcella! That said, I can’t believe that Cersei’s indulgence of Joffrey is the only thing that caused him to become a complete sadist (although it certainly didn’t help curb it).
@61, Like the fact that Tywin pretty much ignored Tyrion, yet Tyrion has all the same mental traits as Tywin?
Arya being just as fierce as Lyanna, despite never having met her?
We’re told that Dany has the same sense of honor as Rhaegar.
There are hundreds of examples of people exhibiting personality traits we are supposed to read as inherent traits, like the Boltons and their sadism.
#64: So, you’re saying that people inherit some traits and are similar in some ways to their relatives and ancestors? What a surprise. I don’t see how that lead you to the conclusion that “family traits are immutable”.
I especially don’t see how Arya’s temperament being similar to her dead relative is a surprise or that she’d have to learn that. Tyrion has some mental traits as Tywin, certainly not “all”, or else they’d be the same character; and Tyrion spent his whole life growing up with Tywin as father and being shaped by him, so this is a particularly bad example. A follower of Dany tells her she has the same sense of honor as her late brother, that must mean she’s his exact copy? Unless you can show me that Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are all completely the same as Tywin, I don’t see how that makes family traits “immutable”.
How would that even work? Is everyone the exact copy of one of their parents? Why are, for instance, the Lannister siblings so different among each other, or all the Starks, or all the Tullys so different? And if you’re an exact copy of one of your parents, what about their parents? They all get two sets of genes, from mother and father. Even if famiy traits were “immutable”, what about all the people whose parents were not siblings or cousins, and who got their “immutable” traits from their mothers? Or do they all just get them from their fathers, with women being just empty vessels (even though 4/5 Stark children look like their mother)? And does this mean that all the current Starks have the same traits not just as each other or Rickard/Brandon/Lyanna, but also as Theon the Hungry Wolf or Brandon Ice-Eyes? Are the latter the same as, say, Torrhen Stark? Are dynasties nothing but a bunch of clones?
Its a long way from a child inheriting traits to ALL children inheriting traits, which is what I took from Aeryl’s “immutable”. Using the example in @64, all Lannisters should be cunning and crafty, with no regard whatsoever for anyone outside the family. Only Cersei inherited that particular set of traits from her father. Tyrion is cunning, and Jamie is crafty, but neither have exhibited the complete lack of regard for anyone not named Lannister that Tywin and Cersei have. Kevan ALSO is neither cunning nor crafty, just capable, and he seems to have a shred of humanity in him.
Did I ever say “clones”?
Look, if it’s a thought process you don’t agree with, or rather not follow through on, fine, but can you at least engage with what I did say, which is that, given the evidence, within this fantasy series(and others) that family traits are more nature than nurture, there is a legit argument to be made for wiping out families within the confines of these stories.
As I said in @66, there are all kinds of examples in-story of family lines NOT breeding true, so I don’t see the legitimacy of the argument based on the immutability of inherited traits… since they are, in fact and in-story, not immutable.
@68, I don’t agree with the argument posited in @66.
They all possess those traits. Life experience has conditioned them to use them differently. That doesn’t take away from them being immutable.
And there is no indication that Kevan doesn’t have the same capacity for those traits. It’s just, with Tywin around he didn’t need to exercise them. SPOILER As we’ll soon see, he roundly outsmarts Cersei.
@69:
SPOILER:
Perhaps because Cersei is actually not that smart, hence debunking the immutability of that particular trait?
Regardless, there is no question that intelligence IS an inherited trait, in real life as well. But the darker side of this that would justify euthanasia? Not so much, IMO. Also, there is NO trait that would justify such a thing, in my opinion, only a particular way of USING such a trait. So even if these traits were immutable, they would ALWAYS need to be acted upon in a similar fashion for such reasoning to strike me as anything but horrific.
Take, say, the Boltons, and something like Psychopathy/Sociopathy runs true in their blood, and ALWAYS runs true. There are different ways to carry out sociopathy, and they are not always destructive to society. Current research indicates that 3% of males and 1% of females are sociopaths. So walk into a grocery store sometime… odds are you’ve passed 2 or more sociopaths in the aisle. A small percentage of those will ever commit a crime that would rise to a capital offense. Unless these alt-reality all-sociopathic Boltons ALWAYS turn into violent rapers and murderers, I’d be hard pressed to say their entire line should be euthanized for the good of society. Heck, I’d be hard pressed to say it then.
@70, Again, you are taking my statement and applying it to the real world and using to real world psychology, when I’ve repeatedly stated this thought process is for fantasy.
I mean honestly, this is third time I’ve had to say this. So I’m done with this.
The only thing I applied real-world psychology to was the justification process. And since I exist in the real world, and not in a fantasy world, I can only use real world psychology to see if I, personally, can justify such actions. I used a real world analogy to point out the JUSTIFICATION process that I would have to go through to accept such a supposition, not the ACTUAL psychology that may or may not exist in ASOIAF.
Did you actually read the post?
I THEN said that the ASOIAF analog world would require ACTIONS, not TRAITS to pass genetically, 100%, in order for ME PERSONALLY to justify such actions. I really don’t see what any other POINT of such a conversation would be. In order for ME (or you, or anyone else living in the real world and reading this blog post) to decide if IN STORY it would be morally acceptable to euthanize whole family lines, I would FIRST have to figure out how in my world it would be acceptable, find the PRINCIPLE behind such an acceptance, and apply that principle to the analog situation in the fictional universe using whatever fictional rules apply.
I hope that was clear enough now. Sorry for the confusion I apparently illicited.
Aeryl, I don’t agree that personality traits are supposed to be inherited within the ASOAIF world. But even if they are, I don’t see how that justifies wiping out entire families.
One, there are practical issues, when people from different families marry, how do you know whose traits the kids will inherit. Will Roslin and Edmure’s kid be more of a Tully or a Frey – you would have to wait till the kid was grown up and his personality could be assessed before you can make a determination.
Two, as a moral principle, people are punished for actions not personality traits. As far as we know, Walder Frey got to eighty years of age before murdering anyone and under different circumstances might well have died without commiting a crime. How would killing him as a baby be justified just because he always had the capacity for carrying out the Red Wedding?
@70: And in fact, we already know that not all Boltons are psychopaths – Domeric seems to have been a perfectly nice guy. So, 2 out of 3 Boltons we’ve met wasn’t a psychopath and didn’t do anything bad that we know of.
@71: And I’ve pointed out that, at least in this particular fantasy series, THIS IS NOT TRUE, but you keep ignoring it. GRRM is a better writer than you give him credit for.
#70: And then we have Lancel, who’s definitely not cunning nor crafty.
Not to mention Joffrey, who was dumb as a ton of bricks.
If you look up “World’s Most Outrageous Lie” in the dictionary and don’t find this, then that dictionary needs to be fired.
I beg to differ – the Turkish government’s statements about the Assyrian, Armenian and Greek genocides are a much better example.
@2
Honestly this series has some of the best women characters.
I do love them. However, IMO, I feel that ‘The Wheel of Time‘ has the best that I have read so far.
Regarding the HBO series, I have been pretty disappointed in their recreation of the look of Martin’s world, along with the appearance of most of the story’s characters also.