Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 17 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 28 (“Jon”) and Chapter 29 (“Davos”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Scheduling note: JordanCon 7 is almost upon me, aaaah! Ergo, there will be no ROIAF post next Thursday (April 16th). The Read will resume the following week on April 23rd. Got it? Good.
Onward!
Chapter 28: Jon
What Happens
Alliser Thorne is distinctly not thrilled to be sent out on ranger patrol, and accuses Jon of sending him out to die. He threatens to come back for Jon if he becomes a wight. Jon is not happy about sending out the men, in three patrols of three rangers each, even Alliser. Both Cotter Pyke and Ser Denys Mallister have asked Jon for more men, and complained vociferously when he sent them wildling recruits.
Jon goes to where Iron Emmett is training the new recruits, and takes on the three best (Arron, Emrick, and Jace) at once. He defeats them easily, but they acquit themselves well. Rattleshirt appears and dares Jon to face a man instead of “little crows.” Jon tells him that Stannis burned the wrong man, but accepts. Jon is shocked by Rattleshirt’s stamina and speed, and loses the duel. The others want to punish him for threatening Jon’s life, but Jon remembers Ser Rodrick’s words about the value of facing the man who’s faster and stronger in practice instead of in battle, and tells them to let him go.
Clydas brings Jon a message from Ramsay Bolton, and he is stunned to read the announcement of Bolton’s marriage to Arya Stark. He pretends he does not care, and says there will be no answer to the message. He reminds himself of his oath, severing all former ties. Upset, he takes a walk with Ghost, and beneath the Wall he meets a woman whom he mistakes for Ygritte for a moment, but then realizes is Melisandre. Melisandre tells him not to despair, and that his sister can be saved. Jon replies that he has no sister, but Melisandre tells him she has seen her in the fire, fleeing her marriage on a dying horse in Jon’s direction.
She asks if she may touch Ghost. Jon is uneasy, but she calls the wolf, and Jon is startled when Ghost approaches and lets her pet him. She tells Jon “warmth calls to warmth.” Jon calls Ghost to him, but Ghost does not respond; Melisandre hugs the wolf and he licks her face. She tells Jon there is power in the Wall as well as in him and Ghost, and that Jon should embrace this power rather than resist it. She offers to show him how to use his shadow by “joining” with her. Jon repeats to her Dalla’s words, that sorcery is “a sword without a hilt”, and Melisandre points out that it is still a sword. She tells him three of his nine rangers will die soon, and will return “eyeless” to him, because he does not believe her.
“A small price to pay for wisdom, some might say… but not one you had to pay. Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand.” The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. “Take my hand,” she said again, “and let me save your sister.”
Commentary
Well, this is just every kind of alarming.
YOU BEST STEP OFF MY JON SNOW, MELLY.
And step off Ghost while you’re at it. Bad touch! No! No stealing away Jon’s wolfy soulmate! Bad priestess! Bad!
No, uh-uh, this is wrong and bad and I do not want any of it.
“The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”
OMG, she wants to make Magical Assassin Shadow Babies™ with him! Jeez, woman, Stannis left like five minutes ago, you can’t go that long without a hit?
No! No draining Jon’s shadow or life force or feng shui or whatever the fuck it is you do! You suck! Literally! Why can’t you just go away?
Feh. Feh, I say!
*takes deep breaths*
Okay, I am marginally calmer now. Marginally.
I suppose it says something that I am not even considering the idea that Melisandre’s motives in “helping” Jon are actually to help Jon, but I don’t really care. If events fall out that she is on the up and up with this offer I will eat my crow (heh) and gladly, but right now I REALLY don’t believe that that will ever happen, because look, y’all, girl is shady as all fuck and always has been, and this whole thing stinks so bad I want to Febreeze my laptop right now.
FIRST of all, you’ll notice that Melisandre entirely failed to mention that the “Arya Stark” supposedly fleeing Ramsay Bolton’s monstrous marital clutches is not actually Arya Stark at all, but Sansa’s ex-bosom friend, or whatever Jeyne’s former title was. Sure, I suppose Melisandre could just have been taken in by the ruse, but I feel like her flamey vision quests should be able to see through a hoax like that. What good would it be to have a thing which tells you people’s futures, if slapping on a wig or whatever and announcing that someone is actually someone else is enough to fool it?
Nah, Melly knows damn well it’s not Arya, and she’s using Jon’s love for his not-at-all-ex-half-sister (because really, Jon, who do you think you’re fooling here) to further her own Nefarious Schemes!
Granted, I don’t know what those Nefarious Schemes are, exactly, but I am sure she has schemes! And that they are Nefarious!
That said, I do hope she’s not lying about the fact that Jeyne is running away. I will be so proud if she’s running! Because I told her to run and she ran! So awesome! Go me!
In that vein of hopeless superstition: DO NOT SLEEP WITH THE SORCEROUS PRIESTESS CHICK, JON SNOW. She will slurp up your shadow and make assassins with it and that is bad. DON’T DO THE THING, JON.
(He’s totally going to do the thing, isn’t he.)
*headdesk* *headdesk*
Blargh, moving on.
Melly’s contribution to my blood pressure nearly eclipsed that of Rattleshirt, but before I got to the latter half of the chapter that “practice duel” was seriously worrying me. Still is, really. I trust that guy about as far as I can throw the Taj Mahal, and I really don’t understand why Jon hasn’t found some way to get rid of him already. I don’t even necessarily mean killing him, I mean just make him leave. Ugh. Seriously, why, why is he still there? Send him to Cotter Pyke or Mallister or somewhere else, Jon! Why does he have to be right on top of you, breathing down your neck and making me all nervous? God!
*more deep breaths*
Ser Alliser only said, “You would like me to refuse. Then you could hack off my head, same as you did for Slynt. I’ll not give you that pleasure, bastard. You’d best pray that it’s a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don’t stay dead… and they remember. I’m coming back, Lord Snow.”
Ha ha, Alliser’s literally promising revenge from beyond the grave. That would be actually sort of badass, if he weren’t such a douche. I’d assume he’s going to be one of the three who die, but I feel like maybe that’s a little too obvious.
“I had a frightening dream last night, m’lord,” Dolorous Edd confessed. “You were my steward, fetching my food and cleaning up my leavings. I was lord commander, with never a moment’s peace.”
Word, Dolorous Edd. Of all the many, many, many (many) crappy jobs in Westeros, Jon’s has got to be one of the most craptastic.
Chapter 29: Davos
What Happens
Davos is puzzled by but grateful for his oddly comfortable imprisonment, though it has been overshadowed by his daily expectation that Lord Wyman will make good on his promise to cut off Davos’s head and hands. But meanwhile he passes the time practicing his reading, writing letters to his family, and chatting with the two saner of his gaolers about the history of the Wolf’s Den. This day, though, he is surprised when Robett Glover enters his cell. Glover tells Davos that Stannis has taken back Deepwood Motte from the “iron bitch,” and about the Boltons’ exploits and Ramsay’s impending marriage to Arya Stark, and bids Davos to come with him. Davos is confused, but agrees.
Glover takes him through a secret passage into a room with a map and Lord Wyman Manderly. Lord Wyman apologizes for the way he has treated Davos. He says that his son Wylis has been returned, and Wyman has slipped away from the celebratory feast to meet with Davos and explain that his denouncement of Davos was a ruse for the benefit of the Freys, and that he has faked Davos’s death for their benefit as well. He says he did not dare to defy King’s Landing openly as long as they had his son, but played along, hiding his deep loathing for the Freys, until he could get Wylis back.
Davos promises that Stannis will get Wyman justice, but Glover points out that Stannis is not the north’s king. Davos counters that Robb Stark is dead, but Wyman says Robb was not Eddard Stark’s only son, and brings in a young boy whom Davos immediately knows is not a Stark. Glover explains that the boy is an ironborn mute named Wex, who used to be Theon Greyjoy’s squire. He was at Winterfell when it was sacked, and escaped being killed by hiding in the weirwood heart tree. Glover and Manderly have learned from him that Theon is not dead, but Ramsay Bolton’s captive, and that it was the Ramsay who sacked Winterfell, and took its women away to hunt for sport. Davos is horrified by their tales of Ramsay’s depravity, and Wyman asserts that the Freys are no better.
Wyman says he will obey Roose Bolton’s summons and go to Winterfell, and make sure the Freys come along. He tells Davos he will pledge all of his considerable assets to Stannis on one condition. Glover explains that when Wex was hiding in the godswood, he heard six people talking below, and two of them were boys with wolves: Ned Stark’s supposedly dead sons. Wex followed one when they split up, and knows where the boy is. Wyman tells Davos that he will pledge to Stannis if Davos finds the Stark boy and brings him back to White Harbor—with the wolf, so they can prove who he is. Davos asks why they need him in particular to do this, and Glover tells Wex to show him.
The mute flipped the dagger, caught it, then flung it end over end at the sheepskin map that adorned Lord Wyman’s wall. It struck quivering. Then he grinned.
For half a heartbeat Davos considered asking Wyman Manderly to send him back to the Wolf’s Den, to Ser Bartimus with his tales and Garth with his lethal ladies. In the Den even prisoners ate porridge in the morning. But there were other places in this world where men were known to break their fast on human flesh.
Commentary
Holy shit, for a second there I really thought Rickon Stark was going to come through that door. Man.
So, Wex is saying Rickon is on the Isle of Cannibals? Was it called the Isle of Cannibals? It might have been called something else, but I distinctly remember that there was an Isle, and it was supposedly populated with cannibals. And unicorns, for some inexplicable reason.
Well, the unicorns might in reality be rhinoceroses (rhinoceri?), even though I don’t recall rhinos being an island sort of animal, but I bet you the cannibals are totally actual cannibals. Because, would Martin pass up a chance to make us read about people eating other people, I ask you? No, I answer, no he would not. He’s a giver that way.
And Wyman is a big ol’ faker! Well, at least I was right about that whole scene earlier where he denounced Davos being weirdly overwrought and hysterical, but I was wrong about the reason why. Probably because I would have rejected the “faking it” scenario as being too good to be true. It’s kind of disorienting when Martin chooses not to take the most bleak route possible for a thing.
But hey, yay! Davos is not dead, and Wyman is not a backstabbing asshole! Well, at least, he’s not a backstabbing asshole to anyone except who I want him to backstab, but that’s totally the same thing. Ahem.
“That is my price, Lord Davos. Smuggle me back my liege lord, and I will take Stannis Baratheon as my king.”
Although, it occurs to me to wonder that, having lied to the Freys/Lannisters, why Davos should necessarily trust that Wyman won’t turn around and do the exact same thing to Stannis. Especially if he has a bona fide Stark heir in his possession.
Hmm.
“My lord should take up a life of mummery,” said Davos. “You and yours were most convincing. Your good-daughter seemed to want me dead most earnestly, and the little girl…”
“Wylla.” Lord Wyman smiled. “Did you see how brave she was? Even when I threatened to have her tongue out, she reminded me of the debt White Harbor owes to the Starks of Winterfell, a debt that can never be repaid.”
Possible double-backstabbing notwithstanding, I like Wyman about a thousand times better just because of this. He’s so proud of her for standing up to him! That’s so refreshing and awesome!
Which, of course, is immediately followed by:
“[Ramsay] is a great hunter,” said Wyman Manderly, “and women are his favorite prey. He strips them naked and sets them loose in the woods. They have a half day’s start before he sets out after them with hounds and horns. From time to time some wench escapes and lives to tell the tale. Most are less fortunate. When Ramsay catches them he rapes them, flays them, feeds their corpses to his dogs, and brings their skins back to the Dreadfort as trophies. If they have given him good sport, he slits their throats before he skins them. Elsewise, t’other way around.”
I’m so glad we keep getting these lovely little reminders of what a stellar example of humanity Ramsay Bolton is. Really, it’s just what I wanted, THANKS EVER SO.
Also, Wex is kind of badass with that dagger, yo. I’m also not sure why everyone is trusting his word (or “word,” I suppose, ba dum dum), but then again I’m not sure what purpose he would have in lying. I don’t remember Wex from before, but that certainly doesn’t mean he wasn’t there—and his account for the most part matches up to what we know really happened, so there’s that.
A man should have more to say when staring at the end of his life, he thought, but the words came hard. I did not do so ill, he tried to tell himself. I rose up from Flea Bottom to be a King’s Hand, and I learned to read and write.
Dammit, man, stop making me get all misty over you. Seriously, I don’t know why the reading thing gets me every freakin’ time, but it totally does.
And lastly:
“Should I refuse, Wylis would die a traitor’s death, White Harbor would be stormed and sacked, and my people would suffer the same fate as the Reynes of Castamere.”
*blink* I thought it was “The Rains of Castamere”?
Wait, you’re telling me that entire song is a pun? Gasp! THAT IS SO EVIL.
Such villainy cannot be borne, so I’m leaving! On a jet plane! But it’s okay, I’ll be back. Try not to pine too hard, my darlings, and I’ll see you in two weeks!
The island is officially named Skagos.
Yes, re the final point – Reynes and pun, absolutely.
Ahahahahaha, there were a lot of other things to say, but I am ridiculously amused that you only just now twigged to the pun :)
(There’s also stuff I WANT to say but can’t, except on the spoiler thread…)
IHave fun at JordanCon, I wish I could make it!
Ah, the poor Reynes. They’re wiped off the map AND get turned into a pun! Tywin truly was evil.
I love the Manderlys.
“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”
Ah yes, the Isle of Unicorns and Cannibals. And you think Davos is being SAVED from certain death? Aren’t you adorable.
There is so much other stuff to say, especially about your Jon chapter, but I’ll keep my mouth shut and just chortle silently.
The Manderlys are great folk though I remember how thrilled I was with this chapter, learning the North Still Remembered.
Manderly! MAN-DER-LY! MAN-DER-LY!
I was pumped when I first read this chapter.
The North Remembers Lord Davos. THE NORTH FUCKING REMEMBERS! And the mummers’ farce is almost done.
Jon – chapter.
– Leigh, you are particularly funny in this analysis section, even by your high standards. Well done. Don’t sleep with the sorcerous chick indeed. Insert phallic “sword without a hilt” joke anytime.
– Iron Emmett is a great character name. Martin is very good at that.
– Yes, Thorne is a jerk but I agree with you he gets some bad*ss points for this.
– Scary to have Mel interested in Jon and, shockingly, having some influence with Ghost. Makes you really wonder what side is she on. You would think Ghost’s mystical bad guy/gal radar would have him running away from Mel as fast as his legs could take him. Could she actually be good to some extent, past burning people notwithstanding? Hmm.
– Since it is clearly not Arya, good question whether Mel is simply wrong about who is in the vision or is she deliberately misleading Jon.
– yeah, what’s up with Rattleshirt, who was one of the most detestable people in ACOK, especially as applied to Jon. Watch out.
A Quest! A Quest!
The Davos chapter is one of my absolute favorites in this book, and indeed the entire series. And Wyman Manderly’s “The North Remembers” speech is one of the big reasons why. This chapter cemented Lord Wyman, and all of House Manderly, among my favorites in the entire series.
And Leigh, the name of that island with cannibals and unicorns is Skagos, East of the lands North of the wall (Sam and Maester Aemon passed it when they set sail for Braavos). Also, we met Wex way back in A Clash of Kings, when Theon arrived at Pyke and his father gave him a mute squire, and then he picked up Asha and flirted with her the whole ride back to the castle while his squire was wide-eyed.
Mel’s prophesy is both specific and vague. His “sister” will be fleeing her marriage on a dying horse in Jon’s direction. It occurred to me that Jon is a bastard and we don’t know how many sisters he actually has.
Skaagos, the inhabitants are reputed to be cannibals, but…let’s be honest here, it could be an Iceland situation. I mean, that means Osha took him there, on purpose, which means the Wildlings must trade with them to some degree, otherwise I can’t think why anyone would think it was a good idea if they were actually cannibals.
Ramsay can’t have been doing this for long because Ned Stark would have crushed the Dreadfort pretty hard.
And ya, Wylla is everyone’s favourite, along with all the other cool young women of the North that are apparently a lot more daring than most women from central Westeros (the Dornish women are also pretty awesome).
I don’t recall rhinos being a particularly arctic animal, either.
Is “The North Remembers” some family’s slogan? It’s much better than “Winter Is Coming”.
Some food for thought re: Melly. She’s never actually met Arya. So she could know it’s not Arya and be lying for her own gain, or she could have seen what she said and assumed. We can’t actually tell the difference, except that she’s so hinky it’s probably generally better to just assume she’s lying.
@12 Yeah I could see how if I really wanted to be left alone on my island, starting a rumor that my friends and I were all cannibals wouldn’t hurt.
@14. Tabbyfl55 I don’t think its a family slogan and frankly a bit of weird saying for a region that has only been assaulted by the Wildlings, neither the Andals or Aegon invaded the North. It’s strange.
@@@@@ 13
woolly rhinos?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_rhinoceros
There are mammoths in the North (the giants ride them, Jon Snow sees that when he joins the wildlings). So why not woolly rhinos in Skagos?
Davos – this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the reasons that ADWD is actually a very good ASOIF book. Awesome chapter on all levels.
– Davos!! So cool and philosophical throughout.
– Robett Glover! Also cool and I love Davos’ confusion while trying to figure out what’s happening.
– Wyman – so much good stuff. Fat but very much not stupid. Finally, between this and Stannis taking Deepwood Motte a few chapters ago, we are getting signs that Ned’s bannerman have begun preparing to go after the Boltons in a significant way. The North Remembers indeed.
– Wex! Funny that he is the second character, after Davos to learn to read for plot purposes. Might even give the impression GRRM supports reading. Imagine that!
– Rickon! Finally, we know where he ended up (good memory re Skagos. I didn’t remember this on my initial read.) Really curious to know how/why he got there. Really, really curious.
@14, It’s an episode title from the show.
@12, Yeah, it was pretty well established IMO that Ramsay didn’t get to kicking up this mess until after Robb marched South and left Bran in charge. However, House Bolton’s had a dreadful(heh) reputation for centuries. Do we have any evidence that this kind of behavior is something Ned looks down on? We know he opposed killing Dany, and supported the rebellion because the Targs hurt his family, but aside from that I don’t really recall how much of Ned’s morality we got to understand.
Fat Man, you shoot a great game of pool.
I love Wyman Manderly. //I love him even more if the Frey Pies theory is correct, but I get ahead of myself. I really hope Leigh picks up on that.//
@14, @17 – It’s also a little hilarious because, as Jon and Sam have discovered, the North most certainly does not remember much, and what they have they’ve remembered wrong. Very bad at memory.
@12
I think that Roose has always been super terrifying, but his big thing has always been discretion. I don’t know how much the Starks actually *knew* about what the Boltons have been up to in recent years.
@22: True.
rot13ed for spoilers because trying to white stuff out isn’t working for me: Ebbfr rira fnlf gung Enzfnl fubhyq or zber qvfperrg va uvf zbafgebhfarff, naq fnlf gung vs ur npgrq yvxr uvz, gura ur jbhyqa’g or nyvir abj.
@@.-@: More rot13ing for spoilers: Vg’f rfcrpvnyyl vebavp orpnhfr, nppbeqvat gb Jbeyq bs Vpr naq Sver, Gljva svavfurq bss Ubhfr Erlar ol univat Pnfgnzrer frnyrq bss naq sybbqrq.
Cannibals to the right of them,
cannibals to the left of them,
cannibals in front of them
…. aaaand I can’t think of a good fourth line. Fail.
You know, Leigh, based on what you’ve said here I’m really looking forward to you reading the next several chapters set in the North. Yep. It’s going to be interesting.
The pairing of these two chapters is interesting, with the emphasis on remembering. Alliser says those killed by the Others remember, and Wyman Manderly proclaims that the North remembers. Of course the whole “Winter is coming” mantra is meant as a reminder of the Long Night (as well as a more general “stock up on food while you can” thing).
And yeah, Davos putting “I learned to read and write” on a par with becoming the King’s Hand gets me too.
What struck me here is the similarity between the description of Ramsay and Zoe’s description of Reavers in Firefly.
@24 – Are you referencing “Charge of the Light Brigade”, or “Stuck in the Middle With You”? Because, really, both of them actually kind of work…
@17 Well, historically the North has had to deal with plenty of raiding along its coasts, from Iron Islanders, various pirates, and the Vale. Anyway, I don’t think it actually became a saying until after the Red Wedding.
@21 Yeah, because we in our world remember so much about what happened thousands of years ago. Was Atlantis just a myth, or something real, and if it was real then what was it and where? ;)
@20 He would’ve executed Jorah Mormont for selling poachers as slaves, he got into a major fight with his BFF over the killing of the Targaryen children, he’s always considered by other characters to have been noble and honorable, except those who didn’t like him who say he was rigid and uptight. So yeah, he wasn’t going to stand for anything like that if he heard of it.
@26 Charge of the Light Brigade.
Into the jaws of Death,
into the mouth of Hell…
@23
Yeah, there’s his whole “N crnprshy ynaq, naq dhvrg crbcyr. Gung unf nyjnlf orra zl ehyr. Znxr vg lbhef.” deal coming up.
@27, No, IIRC, it became a saying after Ned was executed, but the RW just solidified.
he’s always considered by other characters to have been noble and honorable
In this world this is not a commendation of any sort, as very few people have any kind of metric for that. SPOILER Again, by all indications he went to war to prevent his sister from exercising her own sexual agency END SPOILER
*waves pseudo-trident, a three-pronged serving fork* MANDERLYYYYYYY!!!
Nice sigil, Robett Glover. *snicker* It amuses me to see a man with a gauntleted fist sigil in a house of tridents, as they’re symbols of rival Trolloc tribes. Among other things.
Oh, a reminder that Wyman fought in the Battle of the Trident. I like to think he found this amusing.
@30
We really do not know that. It’s quite plausible (even likely) that that’s what motivated Brandon, and we have Robert’s feelings on the matter from his own mouth. But we don’t have that for Ned, and motivation is fuzzy because everyone’s hand was forced when Aerys demanded Robert and Ned killed. It’s unclear what would have happened (and how long it would have taken) if the question had remained only what you’re talking about. And it’s worth noting that Ned never thinks poorly of either party in his PoVs.
@30 Ah, right, it was after Ned’s death. Still, i don’t think it was something people went around saying about the North before then.
As for the part you spoilered, I’d have to very much disagree. That was Brandon Stark, not Ned. Ned got dragged into the war after his father and brother were murdered and Aerys ordered him brought to King’s Landing to be killed, too. It wasn’t about Lyanna at that point. Also, as far as we know Ned had no reason to think Lyanna chose for herself.
@24.
Cannibals to the left of me,
Man-eaters to the right,
Here I am,
Stuck in the middle with Shaggydog (and Osha, I guess)
Ooops, wasn’t that the reference? I’ll keep it anyway.
The “mummer’s farce is almost done” and the “Edd, fetch me a block” lines are two of the three lines that got my fist pumping while saying “Frak yeah!” when I read ADWD. The third is still a bit far, though.
Wyman Manderly is awesome, Wylla is awesomer still. I’m pretty sure that he talks about his army in this chapter too, or am I mistaken?
…aaaaand, this is why I love Thursdays! Leigh, you have outdone yourself.
@31 Agree. I thought the Ironborn were ‘reavers’ until I read about Ramsey.
@@@@@ 30
Didn’t Ned go to war because his brother and father were killed and he was summoned next to King Aerys’ court? Aerys ordered Jon Arryn to deliver both Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon next to him after the death of those two, but Jon Arryn refused, started the rebellion and told both of his wards to go to their realms and raise their banners to depose the mad king.
The one who went to King Aerys’ court to demand Lyanna should go back was Ned’s older brother, Brandon Stark, and their father, Rickard.
And I don’t know why any of this should be spoiler-ish. All of this is information already mentioned in previous chapters.
@25: Ha, I recently read a quote about those reavers and thought “Boltons.”
@35, All that information is what’s been presented as fact. However, underlying all of that is the fact that we’ve been given plenty of indication that’s not actually the true story, but since none of those counterindications are explicit, it’s spoiler territory here on the main read.
I already had a, um, firm opinion of the prospect of Jon getting ensnared by Melisandre’s charms, but Leigh’s descriptions make it seem even hotter.
Regarding the unicorns being possibly rhinos or whatever: in chapter 3 of this book, Jon had a wolf dream where he saw Shaggydog fighting with “an enormous goat” with one long horn. Many medieval depictions of unicorns were more goat-like than horse-like.
@24 – “Noooooo! Dese fokkers was in SPITFYRES!!!”
…no? how about:
“Bring me my BROWN PANTS!!!”
anh? anh?
@40
Aye, on Skagos there be goaticorns.
#38
We may have been given some indications othewise, but Rickard, Brandon, Robert and Eddard weren’t. They took events at face value. And once things were set in motion, I’m not sure what you think Ned should have done differently. His choice seemed to be: fight or die.
“Should I refuse, Wylis would die a traitor’s death, White Harbor would be stormed and sacked, and my people would suffer the same fate as the Reynes of Castamere.”
I wonder whether Lord Manderly is practicing “mummery” again here. We know that one of Tywin’s maximes was to never make a threat that you are not willing to follow through on. And we also know from his own mouth that (not being a dummy) he had no intention of fighting in the North during the Autumn/Winter. So, is Manderly exxagerating for effect here?
*blink* I thought it was “The Rains of Castamere”?
Wait, you’re telling me that entire song is a pun? Gasp! THAT IS SO EVIL.
Well, as far as we know Tywin didn’t write that song himself, he just made use of it. But yea ;).
Joev @42:
We really have no idea what Brandon, Rickard and Ned knew. It may be significant that according to our only witness account, Brandon didn’t mention Lyanna at all, when he came to KL, his only interest seemed to be in killing Rhaegar.
@42, We know from Ned that she didn’t want to marry Robert.
And that’s all I’m going to say.
Back in AFFC when Cersei got the news of Davos’s head and hands on a spike, you insisted that Davos was alive and Wyman was “lying through his teeth.” Called it!
On Skagos Island and the cannibals, just spitballing here
Why did Osha take Rickon to Skagos? Perhaps she thought/knew he would be safer there than anywhere else. So why would he be safer there?
1. Not really cannibals on Skagos. Perhaps a rep they encourage to keep people out. And Osha knows this somehow.
2. Is Skagos part of the North? Are the Starks their liege lords? If so, they might be more than willing to keep him safe.
2A. And maybe provide yet another army to the mix.
Geez, its getting too complicated.
Melly: “Sheesh, you burn a few people alive and nobody will let you live it down.”
@35, 38: No, Brandon was the only one (well, he and his companions) who went to King’s Landing because of Lyanna. Rickard wasn’t with Brandon at the time, and only went to King’s Landing at Aerys’ summons, because his son was there already.
Ned and Robert were meanwhile in the Vale, far away and probably without a clue what happened to Lyanna, and they didn’t do anything before Aerys 1) murdered Rickard and Brandon gruesomely and then 2) called on Jon Arryn to deliver Ned and Robert to KL so he could kill them, too. At which point, Jon Arryn refused and called his banners. (It should really be called “Jon’s Rebellion”.)
We do know all this for sure. How exactly is this supposed to turn out to not be true? Are you saying that Jaime is also lying (including to himself) about what happened due to some pro-Ned bias?
47. Crusader75 THURSDAY APRIL 09, 2015 05:37PM EDT FLAG | BOOKMARK
Melly: “Sheesh, you burn a few people alive and nobody will let you live it down.”
Aerys: “I know, right?!”
@48 Annara Snow : (It should really be called “Jon’s Rebellion”.)
I agree. ‘History’ as taught does not always reflect history as it occurred. But this was Arryn’s rebellion over Starks…not Robert’s.
@@@@@ 38, 48 (roll over for spoilers)
I agree with Annara Snow (and she’s right, Brandon went first, only later would Rickard come to KL).
What Aeryl wrote at 30 is wrong. Eddard didn’t went to war over Lyanna or her sexual agency. The reasons for war involved the gruesome (and from Ned’s POV, arbitrary) executions of his kin Rickard and Brandon, and Aerys’ probable intent to also kill himself (Ned) and his best pal (Robert). The actual start of the war was Jon Arryn calling his banners and sending Ned and Robert to their kingdoms to do the same.
The version that Robert started the war over Lyanna’s hand (or capture by Rhaegar) was made up by minstrels to romanticize the facts, but the actual chain of events show that neither Robert nor Ned were active participants in any rebellion until Aerys called them to KL.
Note: message edited by moderator to white out possible spoilers.
@51, I flagged your comment because you responded to the part of my comment that was spoilery.
@48, I’ve already said I’m not elaborating further here, if you want to know my thoughts, ask me in the spoiler thread.
I hope Wex joins Davos on his quest.
I never even considered the idea that Melisandre would know it’s not actually Arya. I just defaulted to she fell for the ruse, since how would she know? I mean after all, her magic/foretelling has been shown to have its flaws (as Melisandre says, flaws that lie in the reader of the visions, not the sender). So basically, Mel sees a girl in the flames who was married to Ramsey, fleeing him coming to Jon, naturally assumes it’s Arya.
And Manderly: I was pretty sure he was faking up to this point, and I have to say I was glad I was right. And this scene made me love him so much, he’s so badass. The crap he went through all so he could get his son, and still managed to spare Davos’ life… just win all around.
I don’t have the chapter on me but what if it IS Arya in some future time that she has returned to westeros? We didn’t see the vision so who is to say that they are fleeing from winterfell. Could just be travelling.
Dude.
Dude, Aeryl.
Given the rate of message travelling in any sort of existing medival world, I’m pretty sure that Ned Stark got the “oh hey your sister’s with Rhaebaopdoopaflopahmascatmandoobiedoobiedoo now” and the “oh hey your brother just got murdered all like burned alive yo, it was terriblenastydoobadoobawoobatrugaloolyscyeah now, also, your dad was murdered”.
Why they sent the scatman messengers, I do not know. Don’t ask me to explain Westeros’s culture. IT was a different time, Ravens were out of fashion, and scat was in.
Also, there was a great festival that was to be happening at the Vale in that time; but it was called off on account of war. Only the scatmen messengers showed up, because a scat always lands on his fete.
@naupathia in 54, it always seemed clear to me that Melly sees visions in flames — grainy video without audio track or sudden insights. The first challenge is to see the pictures clearly, the second challenge is to interpret them.
What she has seen is a girl on a horse in the snow. Could be Myrcella for all she knows, except that she rejected that explanation as highly unlikely.
I wonder why OSHA would risk taking RICKON to Skagos instead of going somewhere save
Obviously any other place is better than a land full of cannibals
@@@@@ 54, 58
Stannis did see a vision on the fires, of men figthing wights in the snow. My guess it would be a vision of the Fist of the First Men. But Stannis doesn’t say to Davos what that vision means, only that Mel said it means there’s already war with the Great Other of her religion. So the meaning behind the visions seems to be something that one must interpret at their own peril. Much like the prophecies we see other characters have, like the visions of Bran in his dream. Jojen also has visions that must be interpreted (like the one with good food, bad food, the Frey kids and Bran).
@46. Ragnarredbeard
1) Well, there may be a small degree of it in a ritualistic sense, but cannibals are rarely more than that anyway as a fairly static island population (we have no information that they farm from the mainland), it’s unlikely they are full bore cannibals.
2) The Starks were their liege lords and we don’t have much information beyond that, a rebellion some time ago took out a Stark Lord though, so let’s just say they aren’t gung ho Starks like the Manderlys. I can’t remember where Ned’s mom was from.
Seems that Mel and the other Red Priests do get real visions in the fire but their ability to accurately interpret them is only so so. It seems not to be a gift at all but a curse from the gods.
@61, If I had to guess, the cannibalism is probably just some ritualistic eating of the dead or eating people during Winter when food is short*, not full bore “Hunt Down Living People and Cook Them”.
*And hasn’t that been mentioned as a thing that’s happened in the North?
“The North remembers…”
A very strong three-word statement.
(roll over for possible spoilers)
Now, I am hungry for some Frey Pie ;)
As for Skagos, I highly doubt people living there are cannibals. Maybe they got the reputation during a winter, where there was no other option than eating their dead. Anybody seen the movie ‘Alive’ ?
Maybe the Skagosians just eat their off-shore enemies, to gain their valor or some such. The rest of the time they live off unicornian mutton.
Regarding the start of the rebellion…possible spoilers below so whiting out:
I don’t see this as Brandon/Rickard/Eddard or anyone trying to “deny Lyanna’s sexual agency” – I don’t think any of them had any idea that going with Rhaegar was consensual. To them it was kidnapping and forced rape.
Sorry re #66…it WAS whited out. Maybe a mod can fix for me? I got an error in posting first try, so maybe when I fixed that (wrong username) it removed my formatting…
@66,
I disagree SPOILERS
Brandon was angry that he wasn’t going to get marry Lady Dustin, so he surely wasn’t going to allow Lyanna to marry who she wanted.
END SPOILERS
But I have no textual proof of that.
Also, if you want to post white out text with a guest account, preview first, THEN white out the text, it should work.
I’d rather take my chances on Skagos than be within a fifty-mile radius of Ramsay’s vicinity, or otherwise within his reach. I’ve had recurring nightmares about him.
@68: But if you’ve taken the black, a whited-out part of a post will un-white if you preview it before posting. You can then edit and re-white it, though.
@69, well yeah you can do that too
AeronaGreenjoy:
…if it is possible to be worse than Ramsey, I’d have to vote for Biter. *shudders*
@71: That’s an interesting conundrum. ///Yeah, Ramsay sometimes kills people before flaying them, but I think Biter sometines kills people before eating them. I would rather nourish someone than have my carcass go to waste…but would I rather feed Ramsay’s hounds or Biter? Then again, Rorge accompanies Biter and I really don’t want to encounter him. Conclusion: I’ll stay on Skagos, thanks. Or White Harbor, where there totally aren’t cannibals. *cackles*///
@17 actually, the north was invaded by the andals. many times in fact. countless andal armies broke themselves on the defences of moat cailyn, while other andals tried to invade by sea, landing along the white knife. all of them were killed horribly. these invasion’s didnt end until theon stark “the hungry wolf” crushed one of these invasions, build a massive navy, then sailed across the narrow sea to andalos, the homeland of the andals, killed half the population, cut of the heads of every single person they killed, took them back to their ships, sailed home, and mounted the heads all along the eastern shores of the north, as a reminder of what would happen to andals who crossed the wolfes of winterfell.
it worked rather spectacularily, as the north was never invaded by andals again.
also, the north has faced alot of ironborn invasions. all of which they have repelled.
I’d totally take my chances with the cannibals over the Boltons. This is even assuming that their cannibalism is a real cultural thing they do and not just rumor-mongering by outsiders or some historical event taken wholly out of context. A wildling travelling with a Stark who is supposed to be dead has little idea who in the North may remain loyal enough to the Starks to hide them from the Boltons. Cannibal Island probably has some mores about their eating habits that allow Osha to not find herself spit roasted as soon as they arrive. From Osha’s perspective she has far less to worry about from the cannibals she knows than from the nobles she doesn’t.
First time to comment, and doing so now because this is my fave chapter in this book. Got goosebumps when I read Lord Manderly’s speech. Can’t wait to read your reviews of the next chapters
#68: Supposedly. That’s what he told Barbrey. I have my doubts as to his sincerity. There sure is no other indication that he ever disliked the idea of marrying the hot Tully girl who probably would not have put out before marriage, unlike the daughters of the minor northern lords he already got to do. Any indication that Brandon ever fought with Rickard over that? None we know of. Did Cat ever notice any reluctance on his part? Nope. What was his reaction to having a boy challenge him to a duel for his right to Cat? Beating the shit out of him and only not killing him because she asked him not to. Or maybe I’m just cynical… But there’s Barbrey’s description of Brandon as a womanizer who particularly lowed to deflower virgins, and there’s also her wanting to think he was really in love with her, so… (roll over for spoilers)
@74: I’d rather take my chances with the Others than with the Boltons! At least the Others will just kill you straight away and turn you into a wight, and I don’t think wights feel much of anything, if at all.
@76, I really don’t find any of that indicative, especially not the duel, that was plain machismo.
@76 – Come to think of it, how do we know the wights don’t totally dig being undead?
Cons: Freaky glowing blue eyes, poor general hygiene, inability to speak, loss of fine motor control means fun things like tennis or dancing is right out
Pros: Freaky glowing blue eyes, will save tons heating bills, supportive community, excellent job security
Cons (continued) – forced to work at the Others’ day care center to take care of converted Craster babies.
I’m actually looking for some help, folks. I’m just starting to read A Feast For Crows. It’s been about a year since I read ASoS and I’m very happy that I found this blog.
I’ve mainly been watching the HBO series, and am looking for some clarifications between the two. It seems to me that the series and the start of book 4 are just about lined up.
Suggestions? Help? Clarifications? Thanks folks!
@80, The thing about AFFC and ADWD is that they happen concurrently, with AFFC focusing on half the characters, and ADWD focusing on the other half. The show is tackling both at once, and despite the fact that last season ended with Tywin’s death as ASOS did, some things from AFFC and ADWD have already happened in the show(for example, Dany didn’t lock up her dragons until the beginning of ADWD, but that’s already happened on the show)
However, that’s about as much as we can go into, as Leigh is also planning on watching the show, so we try not to talk about it in the book thread.
@80 – Don’t bother. After season 3, the series and books began to deviate significantly. What I watched last night had next to nothing to the book. There is a thread on this site for the HBO series that includes spoilers.
@81: They began to deviate significantly after season 1, especially in terms of characterization. From there on, the differences just got larger and larger each season. Now they aren’t even bothering to stay true to the major storylines.
Hi guys,
I had every intention of having a new ROIAF post ready for you today, but circumstances have intervened. Between the JordanCon report getting seriously epic and the fact that I have been sick as a dog for most of the week, anything else was just not happening.
So, the Read will resume next Thursday. Thank y’all so much for your patience and support. Cheers!
Your just trying to buy time so you don’t catch up to winds of winters huh?
Patience and support – granted!
Well, I hope you had fun. Does every single type of con in existence lead to this post con flu?
You have probably, 16 or so months before Winds comes out, so if you finish Dance before that are you going to do a reread of the previous books to catch us up on your rethoughts or are we going to wait until the series is done for that?
There’s still some Westeros short stories to be read after Dance.
I doubt Lord Wyman is the selfless defender of the Starks he claims to be. He wants to restore Rickon to his rightful seat in Winterfell. His stated reason is because “the north remembers” and Frey-Bolton bad. But remember that Rickon is still a child at this point. If he were to become King or Warden of the North, there would be a long regency, and who better to fill the role of regent than that loyal servant of the Starks, Wyman Manderly?
And then there’s the matter of the Hornwood lands. In book 2, before Ramsay Bolton kidnapped, married, and starved Lady Hornwood, Lord Wyman was one of the main suitors seeking her hand, by which I mean her land. He still wants that land, and didn’t get it. Of course, as long as the Boltons rule the north, his designs on that land will never go anywhere. But if Rickon Stark were Warden of the North, and Lord Wyman Manderly had helped put him there, then of course the lands of the now extinct House Hornwood would be granted to House Manderly.
This is not to say that the Boltons don’t absolutely deserve to be deposed, but let’s not assume altruistic motivations for doing so from Lord Wyman.
@64 So Donner Party?
@91, it is of course perfectly possible to be both a loyal liegeman AND see how being so is to one’s advantage.