I imagine that all the recent hubbub about Iceman coming out as gay in this week’s #40 issue of All New X-Men (and by hubbub I mean “Oh, Facebook Trending updated itself again”) is interesting to comic book fans who grew up reading X-Men comics. Perhaps not because it’s astonishing or new or uncanny, but maybe because it represents the return of a plotline that cropped up in a little-remembered Almost Very Special Issue of Uncanny X-Men published in 1994, more than 20 years ago.
First, though, let’s familiarize ourselves with this week’s admission of Iceman-related sexual preference from All New X-Men:
It’s a little weird to have someone else really insistently state/define your sexual orientation as if they’re the expert. But okay, Jean’s a telepath so she might actually know for sure. And regardless of what Bobby “Iceman” Drake’s sexual identity really is, the exploration of it is absolutely intentional, as confirmed via this MTV interview with Marvel’s Editor-in-Chief Axel Alonso:
“Well, Brian [Bendis] wrote it into a script. He’s been teasing at it for a while, he sent it on in to his editor, who in turn sent it to me, and we started a discussion.”
As an X-Men fan I don’t particularly care if Iceman is gay or not. Some readers will, and that’s fine. However, in some instances readers may believe that this is a new development for Iceman, and that Brian Bendis is just pulling the “gay” ticket out of the Box O’ Unique Character Traits without any respect for the character’s previous history. That kind of switcharoo is upsetting for a fan of, well, anything, not just X-Men characters. (For some reason, making Jubilee a vampire and an adoptive mother comes to mind, for me. What was up with that?) But I don’t think that’s what’s happening here. For one, Axel and Bendis are outright stating that:
After Bendis was “honestly persuasive” on the issue, Alonso took a look at the history of the snow-powered X-Man, passed it up the chain and the decision was made. “That’s the whole boring process. He had a good story to tell, and we think it’s worth telling,” Alonso added.
And for another, this almost happened already in Uncanny X-Men issue #319, written by Scott Lobdell and published way back in 1994.
Even as a kid, I remember thinking that #319 was a weird comic. It took place in this two-issue lull between the Last Big X-Men Crossover (The dreadful “Phalanx Covenant” aka “X-Men Fight the Borg From Star Trek.”) and the build-up to the Next Big X-Men Crossover (The Still Awesome To This Day “Age of Apocalypse”). The comic before it, issue #318, concerned itself with mopping up the mess of the Phalanx crossover: checking in on newly battle-scarred characters and shipping Jubilee off to a new school where she couldn’t annoy the X-Men anymore. And the next crossover wasn’t kicking off until issue #320, leaving the lonely little issue #319 to tell a trio of short character vignettes.
The story about Angel and Psylocke gets the cover because KISSING but the most interesting one by far concerns Iceman and Rogue. In fact, it kicks off the issue with this impressive visual by artist Steve Epting:
As we find out later in the issue, the subtext of this scene isn’t so much “sub” as it is “text.” Bobby has brought Rogue to have dinner with his parents, despite the fact that Bobby has never spent any time with Rogue and has never really shown an interest in doing so. Rogue even comments on this during their drive to Bobby’s parents’ house and the implication is that Rogue is there because she is the most visually “acceptable” woman in the X-Men.
The story is largely about Bobby’s father and the effect that his father’s bigotry and small-minded worldview has had on Iceman. Bobby and Rogue show up to dinner and Bobby’s mother is pleasant, but his father immediately comments on how he’s happy to see that Bobby’s new girlfriend isn’t Asian. (At this point in the comics, Bobby’s previous girlfriend was an Asian woman by the name of Opal.) The confrontation continues as Bobby’s father makes use of racial code words to ask if Rogue is “another one” like his son (i.e. a mutant). Before the discussion can continue onwards, Iceman acts out by using his powers in front of his father—something seemingly forbidden in the household—and storming out. Rogue lands a nice burn before following by calling Bobby’s father a devoted husband, father, soldier, and “bigot.”
Now that we know how the story rolls out, let’s go back to the opening scene. We know that Bobby’s father is unaccepting of his son’s status as a mutant, but that doesn’t seem to be the entire story motivating Bobby to bring Rogue out to Long Island and build a huge ice castle. The story makes it apparent that Bobby even showing up is an attempt by Bobby to mollify his father and fit into his limited worldview, which implies that Bobby has felt obligated to do so throughout his life, regardless of his own feelings. The flashback sequence regarding sand castles is telling in this regard; young Bobby stops building the castle after experiencing his father’s disapproval. Present day Bobby, in response, builds an enormous and elaborate ice castle. He feels a deep desire to express his true self at the beginning and at the end of the story in this issue, although he seems to need Rogue’s support to feel brave enough to do so.
Does this mean that Bobby’s sense of difference extends beyond his status as a mutant and into his sexuality? This isn’t stated outright, and I can’t speak in regards to the intentions of this issue’s writer, Scott Lobdell, but the presence of Rogue is telling. Why wouldn’t Bobby ask Jean along on this trip? Jean Grey is a woman he has been friends with throughout his entire tenure in the X-Men, after all. Why wouldn’t he ask Storm, who at the time was mentoring Bobby in his powers and was more than capable of standing up to racists? Why would Bobby ask Rogue, a teammate that he never really talks to? Is it because she’s an attractive woman with an obvious, downright medical, reason to avoid human contact, providing a handy excuse for why Bobby wouldn’t attempt to touch her?
To me, the story is implying that Bobby is hoping that Rogue will act as his “beard.” He expresses himself fully around her in the beginning of the story, brings Rogue to his family so she can see firsthand the limits he must live within—and so Bobby’s family can see him with a woman—and relies on her for emotional support afterwards.
And while Bobby’s homosexuality is only present in this story via implication, that implication may have been strong enough to influence Bryan Singer when he constructed this notable scene from X-Men 2:
Bryan Singer has spoken publicly that he feels that the experience of being gay and coming out is analogous to how mutants must feel in the X-Men universe when they “come out,” and that the above scene is inspired by that. In fact, pointing out this general parallel between homosexuality and the X-Men is what convinced Ian McKellen to play Magneto.
(Also, hi there supportive-movie-Rogue! Where oh where might Bryan Singer have gotten the notion to make you supportive of Bobby?)
By the end of issue #319, although Bobby makes no statements regarding his sexuality, he nevertheless declares himself ready to leave his father’s limited worldview behind and to start expressing himself more fully. Unfortunately, the X-Men universe gets reset only three issues later, and when it goes back to normal six months after that, Iceman’s storyline shifts focus to Rogue and some boring secret she’s keeping about Gambit, so Bobby’s sexuality doesn’t really get explored any further.
So as we see, and as Axel Alonso and Bendis most likely discussed before publishing All New X-Men #40, the development of Bobby’s sexuality doesn’t come out of nowhere. Repression was built into Iceman’s character at least two decades ago, and there have been other hints throughout the years, as well. Iceman has, for instance, dated not one but two shapeshifters that have spent some of their time onscreen as men. Taken together, these instances create a pattern that suggests that Iceman is, if not homosexual, at least explorative with his sexuality. All New X-Men #40, therefore, remains respectful of the history established for Iceman as a character while exploring new facets of that character. This kind of approach often makes for great, iconic stories.
But comics are ever-changing in their continuity, and there appears to be a big reset button of sorts on the horizon for the Marvel Universe, so will this stick? Maybe! Or maybe there’s more to come. As Bendis and Axel tease, the story only really gets going in May’s Uncanny X-Men #600.
Chris Lough writes for Tor.com and can remember buying Uncanny #300 in a mall. Remember malls? Whatever happened to those things?
I get what Bendis is going for here; Jean is supposed to be so close to Bobby, in a sisterly kind of way, that she can state blunt truths that Bobby might be afraid to say himself. Written properly, this could be charming–instead it comes off as “Hey, you’re gay,” “I am? Oh, okay.”
Too bad. The rest of the issue is pretty awkward too.
I remember that issue from its reprint in the UK ‘Amazing X-men’ (or similar) title (which collected 3 issues into one card-covered monthly title). I joined mid-way through Phalanx, and then there was this. It’s hamfisted, but has some excellent ideas – and this is true, it’s a fascinating queer reading of the character.
I was hoping that Bendis was gonna follow up on Beast’s words in New X-men, after his secondary mutation. Morrison had him (in his slew of big ideas about what mutanthood could mean) say to Scott he thought he might be gay…and in a way that said ‘this is ok’, it wasn’t a big issue (or alternatively it went back into the closet). But I loved that run so much!
The more interesting thing going on here, I think, is how really, really awful what Jean does is. (I don’t know if the Iceman-Rogue story line meant that, but it’s good comic book writing to throw something ambiguous out there, and then to pick up on it later in a way that makes sense.)
I’m surprised I haven’t seen an article about this titled “The Iceman Cometh… Out.” Come on, it’s a natural!
I enjoyed the scene as it was portrayed. How does one handle “coming out” on a team where a member can see into your mind. Homosexuality, tied with sexual attraction, must be wired right down into our lizard brains, and that would be hard to mask from an observant human, let along a telepath or empath.
I mean, come on. With how tight those suits are I bet it was only a matter of time after Gambit shows up that everyone knew Bobby was gay anyway. ;)
From the way this post presented it, it seems the coming out story of Iceman would’ve been better told 20 years ago than in the current issue. It has more build up, more drama and is less awkward.
@5 I would think the polite telepath would pretend she didn’t know other people’s secrets.
@7/NobleHunter: I haven’t been reading these comics, but I read an article saying that young Jean’s intrusiveness is an ongoing character thread with her. The more mature Jean would know better, but apparently her time-displaced younger self doesn’t.
It has indeed been a plot thread that young Jean Grey is exhibiting her telepathic might at a much younger age than she previously did–and without a firm hand to guide her in using it Professor X is currently dead, and Emma Frost has been conflicted about teaching her. As a result she has a hard time filtering out thoughts she shouldn’t be reading.
At the same time she’s acting more rebellious than the original, straightlaced version of Jean Grey, because she is fully aware of how original Jean Grey’s story ended. She is also painfully aware that basically everyone in the world looks at her as the ghost of someone they used to know.
…this is still a really awkward issue. The other half of the issue, with Angel confessing his love for X-23, is painfully over-earnest too. Some people have seen the suggestion of Jean’s mental influence there, too, although I’m not sure it’s intended to be read that way.
@9/ColinR: “Currently dead.” :D That’s comics for ya.
Hey, we all know that the guy isn’t going to stay dead forever. But I’m rooting for one of the Professor Xavier heads-in-a-jar from X-Treme X-Men for the version of Prof. X that joins the team after all this Secret Wars stuff.
I actually own that issue of X-Men from 20 years ago and now I’m going to have to dig that up and reread it
For one thing, it seems a little odd to me the insistence on him being gay & not bisexual, really.
For another, I’m a little disturbed by the way Jean completely ignored his requests to stop the discussion. Even putting aside the fact that she was violating his thought, the author of this comic clearly has no idea how terrifying it is to be confronted with the subject while closeted. Not cool.
@13 As noted above, All-New Jean has been consistently intrusive, which is indeed Not Cool, but also in character. She’s also more powerful than her other self was (both of which have been attributed to the absence of Prof. X) so it makes sense that she could and would cut through Bobby’s denial just that thoroughly and callously.
@13/Benerese: It looks to me as though Bobby is quite unnerved by being confronted with the subject. He gets really alarmed and uncomfortable and literally builds a wall of ice between himself and Jean because he’s afraid to talk about it. So I’m not sure why you’d think Bendis has no idea of something that’s right there on the page.
As for him being gay and not bi, why not? There are plenty of gay people who aren’t bi. There’s a difference between someone who’s bi and someone who’s gay but pretends to be heterosexual. There’s a lot more denial and fear and hiding involved in the latter, and that fits right into Bobby’s story, as discussed in the above article.
Anyway, this is just a few pages out of one issue of a longer story that Bendis hasn’t finished telling yet. You’d probably get the answers to your question if you waited until you’d read the whole thing.
@13 I think if you look at Bobby’s facial expressions, body language, and quite literal “wall” he puts up at the end, the idea this is terrifying and taboo comes through. Just because he doesn’t want to talk about it doesn’t mean Jean stops. This seems like something that could happen in real life, so not sure what’s wrong with the portrayal.
What’s wrong with the portrayal apparently depends on what site you are visiting. Even a site (4chan) that no one would ever think (at least not on the comic book board there) as being particularly open-minded about such things as gender and sexual fluidity, there’s just as many folks calling it ‘mind rape’ as there are giving the expected response: “why can’t they find a new character to turn …. in order to pander demographically.”
If you look at the comments on sites (such as The Advocate) where you might just expect support or ‘what’s wrong with this portrayal’ type comments, you’re getting the same ‘mind rape’ type (down to the use of that same exact phrase more than once) as well as comments about being ‘outed against your will.’
Personally, as a gay guy, I have problems with how the entire sequence (it’s a bit more than shown above) plays out; this post is the first, out of about 20 or so I’ve read, that mentions Jean in this arc is far less respectful and insensitive about respecting people’s privacy; I’ve been reading other comic books, but what I know and I understand is that the writer of this arc has a reputation for writing things to change them, Marvel has a stated policy in their marketing of simply creating controversy in books because they know it drives sales increases well and above standard (inclusive other Marvel books) comic book arcs, and as the rest of the art/dialogue has them (Bobby and Jean) discuss, older “me” is not gay.
So in other threads, what you also find is complaints, many of them from gay readers, than being gay is not something a writer should just turn on or off, especially if it’s going to imply that it’s something that can wear off or you can out-grow.
It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out, as there are currently two versions of Iceman hanging around, and the older Iceman is dealing with the fallout of a sort-of-break-up with Kitty Pryde. Older Bobby hasn’t really shown any inkling that might be gay since that one tenuous implication in the 90s comic above, and has had a number of very earnest relationships with superpowered women. I wonder if the younger Bobby coming out will be news to Bobby the elder?
@18/HarrytheBrit: I would expect that’s the long-term goal with this storyline. I mean, that’s the obvious question raised by this: How will this revelation about his younger self affect his current self? I can’t believe that isn’t exactly what the story is aiming to address.
The way Jean acts is disturbing, but I think you could make a pretty good case that it’s supposed to be. After all, we don’t get dramatic conflict out of perfect people acting all nicey-nice. It’s characters’ flaws that make them interesting. It may well be that a comeuppance is in the offing for Jean down the road.
@17 Hey FDS,
Telepathy in general is mind rape. It’s intrusion into our most private space, our mind, without prior consent. The topic is addressed over and over in comics, fantasy, and psifi (pun intended) but I can’t remember another time when Marvel has used it specifically to out someone. (anyone?)
So yes, we agree what Jean is doing is “wrong”. It’s wrong whether she’s outing Bobby or getting the scores to last night’s Lakers game. I’m very curious to see how they explore this thread with Jean since they’re bringing out some pretty big examples of how inappropriate an undisciplined Psi can be, both out in the world and in their personal life.
They’ve also opened up the thread for Bobby’s sexuality too. For the other type of “wrong” we can discuss, whether the scene was unrealistic and Bobby’s reaction unbelievable, I think they did a pretty good job in that small number of panels. I can feel the emotions and interplay.
Going back to Benerese’s comment where they claim the author clearly has no understanding of how terrifying it would be: I see no evidence of that here. Clearly the only person who could truly understand would be someone that’s been in this situation, but I don’t think the author “clearly” misplayed the scene.
Perhaps someone gay who has been confronted by a telepath and asked to discuss their sexuality before they were ready could comment?
21/Swgregory, we don’t seem to be disagreeing about much regarding the core issue, my response here stems from finding this interaction described as ‘mind rape’ in nearly every other site, save this one, I’ve visited on this particular issue, and that this thread was generally way more sympathetic to Jean’s acts here than, again, anywhere else.
I haven’t been reading the series so far and not sure I ever will plus it’s exceedingly rare that I read single comics of an arc, except at the start, if I decide not to continue, so I cannot fairly comment on whether it is in character or not, I’m just commenting on the responses to this. My concerns have been addressed here and elsewhere, but one main one would be the entire way the whole set of images essentially push aside (at best) the possibility Bobby could be bi – while the author did address the issue that their current reality is a more open and accepting time frame than Older Bobby enjoyed at the same stage in life, it is clearly presented by both characters as either his older self is closeted gay/self deceiving or a heterosexual.
The other concern is the far more complex issue of nature/nurture, which yes, they might explore and examine in future issues (in addition to some sort of karmic resolution of what most folks are calling Young Jean’s lack of inhibitions with her psychic abilities in this arc); what I read isn’t promising, what I do know of Bendis isn’t promising.
As far as “I can’t remember another time when Marvel has used it specifically to out someone,” my specific point was not related to outing, or to the use/mis-use of psychic abilities, but where Marvel’s editorial people and marketing people have been specifically quoted (an AMA, for example) talking about how societal controversies (be it making the current Captain Marvel a Muslim, for example, or making Thor a female, etc.) has pushed increased sales of those particular issues/arcs, when other things they do which are typical for their comics and for the industry (e.g. marrying Deadpool off, killing Professor X, etc) do not have the same bottom line impact.
As a gay guy, for me, as an example in a DC line, some of this is pandering that doesn’t interest me in this day an age, such as making Alan Scott gay, particularly since they did it in an alternate universe, especially when they present his partner and then kill him quickly off, doing the common trope of using this death as a motivator for how Scott reacts to being a superhero. And what relationship activity you do see in the art (or dialogue) is minimal compared to how numerous other arcs in their line depict heterosexual relationships. It’s the same as seeing two guys hug, or show two guys in bed without touching (or do the equivalent of a horizontal hung) or simple (say affectionate) handling of one another (hand on the shoulder, hand holding) – a perfect example of this was the current episode of The Night Shift, versus how heterosexual couples are ever shown.
Different people would react in different ways. If I had a close friend I trusted with my life when I was 16, I think that I really would have appreciated understanding just what was going on inside m head. It was confusing, and upsetting, and it was something I only figured out six years later. The initial recognition would have been a shock, but it would have been much nicer than another six years of not understanding.
The implication in ANXM #40 is that Bobby may _never_ have figured it out. Bobby seems to have been quite unhappy. In his most recent substantial arc, in Liu’s Astonishing X-Men, Bobby nearly triggered a global ice age while under possession of a death seed from the Age of Apocalypse timeline. It turned out that the death seed could take such control of harm largely because he was so filled up with anger and self-hatred. He jokes, but he is not happy. It’s imaginable to me that he might be so deeply in the closet that he might not even know he’s in one. After House of M, he briefly thought he lost his powers until Emma Frost confirmed that he’d unconsciously suppressed them.
This is a story about one person’s recognition of sexual orientation. It may not reflect the story of all people, but it’s enough to fit some.
@22 FDS
I agree that any changes made purely for the sake of increasing sagging sales would be disappointing. But, if they do make changes, I really hope they do as you say and not just pay lip service to them, but take a deep-dive into what it truly means to be a female Thor, gay Iceman, or Muslim Captain Marvel.
I’m not too sure about the bisexual Iceman thing. (bIceman?) There’s nothing wrong with him “just being gay” is there? I mean, Jean’s a psionic, so she’s probably pretty on the ball I’m sure. If they came out with her insisting he was bi, would we discussing whether he was just gay?
I’m going to play devil’s advocate on one thing though: calling what Jean is doing “mind-rape”. I’ve said before, from my perspective, that doing so is mind rape. But that’s my perspective.
If I walked around naked, would I have the right to get mad at anyone that looked at my junk? If I considered it a great affront to have my junk gazed upon, would the onus be upon me to cover up my junk in public, or for everyone to actively ensure they are looking away, even if I’m walking around wiggling my hips to “get things in motion”?
Jean is a telepath. She’s walking around in a world of naked minds, with people pushing their thoughts out there 24/7. Is it her responsibility to block everything out? It’s quite likely someone’s thoughts and their spoken words are equally loud and hard to ignore. If someone was saying stuff out loud, would it be considered “speak rape” for her to respond and use that information?
Once again, from my perspective it would be a yes, because I’m trained to control what I say, but have no ability to control what I think in a similar manner. There’s no curtain I can put up between her and my most intimate thoughts.
But from her perspective? No. She likely has no concept of communicating with people other than with both words and thoughts flowing to her with equal facility.
Imagine if she did think it was rape to listen to someone’s thoughts. We’d basically be telling her that she is in a constant state of “mind raping” people just by existing and standing amongst us.
Could you imagine living in a state where everyone told you that your existence was an affront to how other people lived? What they believed was moral and proper? And all you were doing was being true to how you are born?
I’m sure you could. I’m sure it was no accident that the girl coming under fire because she’s just being true to her basic self is the one talking to Bobby about coming to terms with the idea of being true to himself as well.
@24/swgregory: A lot of fiction about telepaths draws a distinction between reading “surface thoughts,” the stuff we actively radiate that a telepath can’t help overhearing, and reading deeper, hidden thoughts that a telepath has to actively probe for. Basically the difference between passive and active sensing.
In this case, Jean probably sensed that Bobby’s comment about Magik’s “hotness” was not accompanied by any genuine feeling of sexual attraction, that it was just a facade. Feelings of lust and arousal are probably something that would fall into the “surface” category, part of your emotional aura that would be obvious to an empath or telepath. (Heck, a dog or a cat could detect that just by your scent and body language. It would be clear as day to them, not hidden at all.) So Jean can “see” Bobby’s attraction to people as effortlessly as she can see his facial expression and hear his words, so she could easily tell that he was attracted to men and not to women, even though he pretended otherwise. She wouldn’t need to invade his mind to find that out; it would be obvious to her.
So it’s not “mind rape” for her to realize he’s gay. Although it’s arguably rather invasive of his privacy to confront him about it, to make him uncomfortable by revealing what she knows. On the other hand, he knows she’s a telepath, so he should know that she would know. Unless he didn’t admit it to himself. Maybe she assumed that he did admit it to himself, and that he would know that she could sense it, so she didn’t realize she’d be making him uncomfortable by revealing a truth that he was hiding from himself.
Chris raises some good points and as I said, I’m not calling it mind rape, I’m just noting the discrepency which how this scene plays out elsewhere and on then here on Tor. Personally, were it me, I’d feel violated.
Again, personally, I think most people would fall fairly sloppily on any kind of scale of what are you and I’m wrong the person to defend being ‘bi’ – I do agree that a number of guys get to play the bi card to ease them out of societally accepted normallacy and into full fledged gayness (and I am only using these phrases/words to short circuit another lengthy post). Guys in their early 30s and younger are a lot more relaxed about sexuality and are a lot more willing to admit they can be turned on by a variety of things. And I believe generally people are far more willing to admit they can have emotional, mental and more-than-purely same sex physical relationships. What I hear from my bi friends is that they feel their characters are used as bridges or are used as plot devices or that it’s white washed (the whole argument about John Constantine on NBC, for example, or Deadpool as well, even though other folks argue that both – as with Bobby here – have long term and otherwise serious relationships with females). So, to the extent this arc makes it an either/or ‘Bobby is gay now and always was gay’ ‘old Bobby was closet, clueless, self-loathing, etc.’ versus accepting the possibility that Bobby (both old and new) is bi is more complicated and denigrating than anything else.
Again, we probably need to see how it plays out. In that regard, what I read on pure comic nerd sites is that Bendis has a the habit of throwing something at the page and not really caring whether it sticks and then moving onto another/different book of characters or set of arcs, and so these narrative threads are simply rebooted/ret-conned by future creators or ignored.
I dont get it.
As a long time collector and reader, I dont get it. Bobby Drake has a son. He was going to be married. He has always been traditional. He’s been chasing girls for over 40 years. This is dumbest storyline ever.
This was straight publicity b.s. by a horrible writer who is killing the comics we all loved.
I have no problem with a gay super hero. No one cared when north star became gay. The reason iceman needs to be gay is to have a popular character be gay. North star wasnt popular enough.
I’m so tired of writers and editors of marvel. What horrible people they are. Why dont we take the peanuts characters and start replacing them with other nationalities, sexual identity, and political agendas. Then justify it as progress. When we all know it really is economic splash to make money.
Marvel readers are sheep. I know longer care for Marvel.
Killed ff4! Killed Nova Richard Rider! Made Cyclops crazy! Killed Wolverine! Made Ice man gay for no reason….just because Bendis likes men is a stupid reason.
I love it. I think people are being way too sensitive. I do understand the way Jean told bobby wasn’t expected. But knowing Jeans character and there relationship. I feel she had every right, shes an xman its her job to teach and guide, so why not help a friend. I’m gay and love that I can say an xman is now. Hopefully they put that into a movie I would love it.
Paul:
“just because Bendis likes men is a stupid reason”
Bendis is actually straight, having been in a relationship with a woman to which he is now married since 1995, with multiple children. To the best of my knowledge, the people who okayed this decision are, overwhelmingly, straight men who thought this would make sense.
Bullcrap. Yes, Iceman’s father was a bigot. There is an issue where he embarrasses Bobby when he brings his Asian girlfriend Opal to dinner at a restaurant. THAT’S what Scott Lobdel was referring to, not Iceman secretly being gay. It’s pretty lazy to take existing characters and ‘make’ them gay, instead of creating new, interesting, iconic characters. This was completely stupid, and that’s coming from a fan of Bendis’s work. Cue the ‘you’re a bigot’ comments… now.
I feel as though this is a perfect portrayal of Jean Grey. IMO, it’s this same intrusive Jean telepath/empathy we saw in action during the New X-Men run. I’m not saying its right, but it’s sure consistent with even her dead self. She was a meddler and, as Emma Frost put it, almost a “playground bully”. Also, I’m sorry, but I don’t think that the original passage was about his sexuality as it was his struggle with his father accepting his ” ability to create (if you will) ice castles.” Rogue just happened to be the one the writer chose at the time to accompany him.
Emma Frost calling someone a bully is funny.
@34/MaGnUs: I wonder, is Emma Frost really a bully? In her original presentation, she was a dominatrix (specifically based on the dominatrix getup Diana Rigg’s Mrs. Emma Peel adopted in an episode of the UK The Avengers), and a dominatrix is kind of the opposite of a bully. Bullies dominate others without their consent in order to take pleasure from their victimization, but dominatrices dominate others with their consent in order to give pleasure, and have to be very sensitive and considerate toward their partners’ feelings and boundaries. Of course, being drawn as a dominatrix doesn’t necessarily mean Emma was written that way, but I can’t help wondering.
She was drawn that way, but she was a member of the Hellfire Club Inner Circle, and definitely a villain, who sought to impose her desire onto others. The paralel is fun, and she later became a hero (and is now a villain again), but she was definitely not someone who was considerate of others boundaries.
This article seemed to be grasping at straws, any of the arguments made here could be argued for a fair amount of mutants. It’s always seemed like the mutant gene was used to push a metaphor of homosexuality, but that doesn’t make a single character homosexual. It’s fine if they are as well but this was a lazy bunch of panels that awkwardly pushed an agenda instead of making an interesting attempt at the fact that Bobby always felt he needed to hide it. They could have hit on factors that caused him to deny it, or a hundred other things, but instead it’s shoehorned in and they make it seem so casual, where many times something like that isn’t. I’m bisexual, and this comes off as insulting and funny enough the most unrealistic thing in this comic because of the brash nature of how it was written. It doesn’t inspire or intrigue, it falls flat because it’s poorly written and is so detached from the comic itself it’s like you are reading a fan fiction that a 12 year old girl wrote. X-men has always been a voice for change and acceptance, and maybe there could have been potential here for an amazing message, but instead it’s a terribly awkward offhand scene that makes jean into kind of a terrible person who would just out someone.
Uncomfortable as I am with the mind-reader doing it, it’s more talking to a person about something about themselves, a key distinction in the approach.
I know this is an old article by now but I just want to address a couple of questions you laid as examples. You asked why he wouldn’t have asked Jean, well as you know Jean is a strong character, an honest writer wouldn’t have placed her there if he expected Bobby to stand up for himself. There’s also a good chance they’ve at least met his friends once and seen Scott and jean together. Storm is also a very strong character who speaks her mind, and if you consider they went a long way to set up his dad as a racist bigot, the idea of a black girlfriend will get him as much grief as an asian girlfriend. Rogue is supposed to be this hot, southern belle type so why not impress his parents and avoid a confrontation at the same time, it’s supposed to be a peaceful dinner right? Maybe you felt the ice castles were a little fey, I don’t know. One stupid joke in an episode of Family Guy and a beloved character is changed forever.
P.S. there’s a faint memory of Bobby going home with his friends in either an early X-Factor vol. 1 or New Defenders and his parents where more just freaked out then bigoted. I might be wrong though.
Another commenter nailed it. There is more evidence that he is NOT gay. has he thought about it? Maybe. The fact is NorthStar is not a popular enough gay character so based on very little evidence people who have not followed him since his origin in the comics are OK with him suddenly being gay. Does he have a feminine side? Probably. Don’t all men have some of that? Say whatever you want. This gets certain writers and Marvel Comics more attention. Whatever.
I know this is a 5ish year old article but with the recentish backlash of Iceman being “put back in the closet,” I feel I must say my piece.
Iceman should have never been made homosexual. The problem isn’t that he can’t like guys, but rather one of his defining character traits was he was a ladies man. To add salt to the wound Iceman had a whole getting over being a homophobe arc during the Dominant Species/Holy War storylines, which also had a wedding for Havok and Polaris which made Bobby so Depressed he got drunk. It feels his whole growth was cheapened to make him gay later.
Add to the fact that future Bobby, during the Battle for the Atom event tells his present day self to grow a beard because chicks dig the beard. This feels out of place later when Bobby is Outed by Jean (who not too long before had been using her powers to force her friends to do what she wanted so probably not the best choice for the writers).
Lastly, Issue 234 of X-Men Legacy Volume 1. Rogue, to assist the Stepford Cuckoos had borrowed their power and had a residual telepathic abilities. Throughout the day she suffers reading and projecting thoughts without intent. One of the thoughts she reads states: “Wonder if you even know I’m here, Rogue. Still less how I feel about you. How I burn for you.” Guess what, this was Bobby’s thoughts. Rogue asks him, and he pretends he was thinking about Baseball. If he was gay, pretending to be straight, why would he have these thoughts? Sure would explain why he invited to Rogue to dinner now wouldn’t it…
As I’ve said, Bobby being gay was a bad choice, from its reveal, to how it contradicts his defining traits and growth over the years. Not that he can’t also like men, but rather that it says he no longer is into women. Solution? Make him come out as bi. Bi males are barely represented anyways. It’s the most satisfactory answer. Not perfect, but it doesn’t sweep any current story or past story under the rug. Alternatively you could make it mind control or something stupid like that but that would never go over well.
Ultimately, I don’t think ANY character should ever change one of their core traits for political correctness. Imagine the outcry if you change Luke Cage’s race, or Northstar’s sexuality. While for some characters, sexuality isn’t a defining thing, but for Bobby, it was. It was both a defining trait, and a growth arc.
@42/Ice for X: “Iceman should have never been made homosexual. The problem isn’t that he can’t like guys, but rather one of his defining character traits was he was a ladies man. To add salt to the wound Iceman had a whole getting over being a homophobe arc during the Dominant Species/Holy War storylines, which also had a wedding for Havok and Polaris which made Bobby so Depressed he got drunk. It feels his whole growth was cheapened to make him gay later.”
Homophobia and womanizing are two of the classic ways that closeted gay men deny their true sexuality to themselves and others. So there’s no inconsistency at all in this.
“Ultimately, I don’t think ANY character should ever change one of their core traits for political correctness. Imagine the outcry if you change Luke Cage’s race, or Northstar’s sexuality.”
It’s hardly symmetrical. Culture and entertainment have long been heavily imbalanced in favor of heterosexual white male characters. Changing characters like that into something else reduces the imbalance; changing in the other direction increases the imbalance. It should be obvious why they’re not the same thing, and pretending they are is disingenuous.
@43/ChristopherLBennett
Please do not hide behind the imbalance of comics as an excuse to invalidate my claim. My examples may not be ideal, but they are still a valid point.
Example: Luke Cage is whole character is built around the fact he is a black superhero. Meanwhile Nick Fury isn’t built around his race, changing it does not harm and in some cases can expand on his character.
And you wouldn’t have to change Luke Cage into a white man. You could change him into a Métis or Iñupiat and you would easily find he is just not the same character. His race is a defining part of who he has grown to be. It would actually be better to create a new character than try to rework him.
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Now from an alternate stance, yes, the displaced Bobby Drake could be homosexual without taking from his core character, as he has not had the same experiences the Present Bobby Drake has had. In fact this was actually a positive, as it present an opportunity for him to become his own character, not just Iceman2.0 (similarly like how Miles Morales is not just Peter Parker 2.0 but his own character. Both Spider-Man, but each unique). In this sense he would add balance. Honestly I had been looking forwards to the reveal and how Present Iceman and Time dis…can we just call him younger Iceman? would interact.
But for Present Bobby, being a ladies man is one of his defining traits. It is what he was famous for, being the young, fun but goofy, self proclaimed ladies man. Again, I’m not saying he can’t also be into men. That part doesn’t hurt or harm his character. The issue is being into ONLY men. And like I said, Bi Male characters are virtually unheard of in media, so it would still be adding balance to the cast.
@45: Acknowledging the reality of privilege and imbalance throughout society is the opposite of hiding — it’s openly confronting the problem that needs to be addressed. Hiding is pretending that siding with the oppressed is equivalent to siding with the oppressor, that they’re equal sides and that there’s no moral difference in choosing one over the other. That’s hiding from reality and hiding from our moral obligation to confront and correct injustice.
Say there are two tables. Table A is laden with a hundred dishes of fine foods and has only a few well-fed people sitting around it, and Table B holds only a few plates of leftover scraps to feed a large number of malnourished people. Now imagine someone saying that you shouldn’t move any plates from Table A to Table B unless you move an equal number of plates from Table B to Table A to “preserve the balance.” No. That’s not how it works. When such a profound imbalance already exists, there’s only one direction of movement that improves the status quo.
“Different experiences” making someone gay? I don’t think that’s how it works…
@47/MaGnUs: No, but different experiences could change whether someone was willing to admit to themselves that they were gay, as opposed to continuing to put on a pretense of heterosexuality. For instance, if Supergirl‘s Alex Danvers hadn’t met Maggie Sawyer, she might not have started questioning her sexuality and therefore might still be in denial about it.
Yeah, that works, of course.
It goes back even further. To the very 1st issue of “X-Men” in fact. When Jean arrives all the other guys get really excited. But 16 years old Bobby, who should be filled up with Hormones as any teenager in this time, neither cares for Jean’s arrival nor does he understand it. He thinks to himself something like “It’s just a girl”.
Wow, my reply is super late.
@45: I want you to know I appreciate your counters as it does help me see from the another’s point of view. I mean no offence as I don’t believe you meant any yourself, but please hear me out. “The Table” analogy is one of the most bias and prejudice examples given. It unbalances sides assuming that only “majorities” or “represented fans” sit at one table and “minorities” or “unrepresented” sit at the other and the only way for one side to be happy is to take from the other.
In your example, “Iceman” is the meal being brought from table A to table B. You imply in this case that Table B can only sample and enjoy…don’t take outta context…Iceman if he’s brought to the other table for balance. This is not true. I’m not a straight male, I’m bi, so I should in theory be sitting at table B (or perhaps C if B is only homosexual males, but that would make the scenario worse). I don’t believe my sexuality should factor if I should like a character because of theirs, and changing it to include me doesn’t mean I now have to like it either(Also again I ask, if making Iceman gay is balance, why isn’t also making him bi?). The dish of Iceman also has been adjusted, say the gravy was swapped, and while that’s a minor feature it could change the whole flavor. So now it’s not the same “Iceman”. It’s close, but it’s not the same. Suffice to say representation does not make a character good and can in fact hurt when done improperly.
You also imply that rather than making more or new food, the only way to balance is to take from the other table. Anole, Morph (one of my favorite newer characters by the way, not the 90s cartoon one), Shatterstar, Northstar, Rictor, none of these characters can be more than “scraps” in this scenario despite also being able to be just as interesting and deserving of their own story. Why can’t they be made into better meals? Why is the only way to balance to bring from the other table? Honestly it’s lazy writing: Rather than build up a minority character and make them interesting, it’s better to take an interesting character and make them now a minority.
Don’t get me wrong, Table B should rightly so be given more options at their table. But there is no balance in stealing from Table A. This is a temporary fix that segregates the tables rather than bring them together. It states fans are not allowed to appreciate characters as characters but only as products: we can’t sell to both tables so let’s sell to one or the other. The balance should be attained by bringing the tables together and bringing out more dishes. Characters should not be changed to make balance rather new characters should be written. There is no reason Marvel cannot give their Table B characters more love and there is no reason table B cannot like characters on Table A as is.
@47 and 48: To an extent. As I showed above, Bobby has hidden feelings for Rogue. Regardless his taste when he was younger, he also has feelings for a woman. Bobby the younger has not met Rogue and hasn’t developed feelings for her. So if he in theory never met her would he be gay, bi, or straight? Again, I can’t stress this enough, Bobby liking Men isn’t the issue, it’s the suddenly not interesting in women that is. So if he never met she who he would develop feelings for, he could be just gay. Also implying at the time of the original coming out story it was still ambiguous if they were both the same person, so what affects one could in fact not affect the other.
To be fair, this might just be me because of my tastes/sexuality, and I feel that while Iceman could prefer men, he still had true feelings for the different women he had relationships with over the course of the comic. So difference experiences make different Bobbys.
@50: Thank you for an actually comic book based argument, not based on Politics. *insert smiley face here*
And yes. Bobby didn’t have feelings for Jean when she first appeared. This could be that he was not into women, and maybe he wasn’t. However when Stan Lee was told Iceman was gay, he was surprised, so I do not believe that was the original intent.
Also Charles kept telling Bobby to go play in the corner like a little kid so perhaps Bobby just wasn’t into anyone yet, despite being 16. Perhaps his age was retconned. I know in Beast was College aged in one story but in the old X-men run he was a teen like the others.
Ultimately in the end it doesn’t matter much. As it stands now, Iceman being gay hasn’t ruined the character, so I should not complain. It hasn’t stopped me from enjoying the character or the comics, and I am pleased when characters can be representative to some of the unrepresented fans. I just wish it could be done without change to characters, or at least done in ways that I don’t feel are out of character.
Again if I sound harsh I don’t mean too. It’s hard to argue on the interment without sounding mean/mad.