Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 18 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 30 (“Daenerys”) and Chapter 31 (“Melisandre”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
A note before we begin: My dear friend and fellow Tor.com blogger Kate Nepveu has asked me to get the word out about Con or Bust, the organization dedicated to helping fans of color attend cons, and how it is currently having its annual auction to raise funds. Get cool swag and support a great cause! Bidding closes on May 3rd, so check it out soon!
Onward!
Chapter 30: Daenerys
What Happens
Dany contemplates the large and effective blockade of Meereen in the bay, and finds no encouragement from her admiral Groleo, who bitterly mourns the loss of his former ship and entreats her to unleash her dragons on the blockade. Barristan reminds her their stores are plentiful for the moment, and that his orphans are coming along nicely in their knighthood training. Skahaz comes to report that his spies have seen Hizdahr zo Loraq visit eleven pyramids so far, and there have been no murders for twenty-six days. Skahaz is convinced Hizdahr is not only in league with the Sons of the Harpy but that he is their ringleader, but Dany does not think her enemies in the city are that organized. Skahaz also thinks she should use the families of the Meereenese ships in the blockade to force them to stand down, but Dany counters that sending his Brazen Beasts into the pyramids will precipitate open war in the city, and refuses.
Galazza Galare, Grey Worm, and three Blue Graces come to her to deliver news of a refugee from Astapor who said the city was burning before dying of what seemed to be an arrow wound but which the Graces believe was actually “the bloody flux.” Galazza thinks he is a harbinger of ruin, but Dany says he was only one sick man, and dismisses them. She sends for her bloodriders and mercenary captains to return to the city, including Daario, though she secretly worries that he might betray her.
Brown Ben Plumm returns first, eight days later, bringing her refugees from Astapor who tell her the horrific tale of the city’s suffering and downfall, from disease, starvation, and rioting just as much as the besieging army outside their walls. Their contempt and disappointment that she had failed to rescue them is thinly veiled, but Dany knows that she would have lost Meereen had she marched to Astapor. Ben tells her there are more refugees coming, many of them sick. He and Reznak urge her to bar them from the city, but Dany is loathe to do so. Reznak urges her to marry Hizdahr at once, but Dany remembers that Quaithe had been right about “the pale horse,” and thinks Reznak may be the “perfumed seneschal” she warned Dany about as well. Ben and Reznak argue about the dragons until Dany shuts them up fiercely.
Ben says that if she refuses to use the dragons, then they should sell Meereen back to the Yunkish and leave, but Dany will not hear of it. Skahaz and Barristan argue over whether it is better to allow the city to be besieged or to take the battle to the enemy. Dany decides to send Ben’s Second Sons to scout the enemy and get an idea of their numbers. Ben suggests taking gold along to possibly bribe the mercenaries to switch sides, and Dany agrees. She still wants to shelter the Astapori refugees, but Barristan warns her that he has seen the bloody flux take down entire armies, and she reluctantly agrees to set up a camp for them outside the city instead.
Later, she asks Barristan privately what he thinks of their chances. He thinks they have too many enemies within the city to withstand a siege, and again urges her to let him take the battle outside. Dany points out that if he takes his knights-in-training and the Unsullied, she will only have Skahaz’s Brazen Beasts to hold Meereen. She prays for guidance, but receives none.
When she opened her eyes again, Daenerys said, “I cannot fight two enemies, one within and one without. If I am to hold Meereen, I must have the city behind me. The whole city. I need… I need…” She could not say it.
“Your Grace?” Ser Barristan prompted, gently.
A queen belongs not to herself but to her people.
“I need Hizdahr zo Loraq.”
Commentary
Aw, man. Not Hizdahr.
Mostly just because, but also because I still say it is Hinky Indeed, that we (and Dany) don’t know what exactly he has been doing to secure this internecine peace. I don’t like it.
But then, what’s to like? As far as Dany’s situation is concerned, it seems that the answer is: not a damn thing.
And some things even less than others:
[Galazza:] “The gods sent this man to us. He comes as a harbinger. He comes as a sign.”
“A sign of what?” asked Dany.
“A sign of wroth and ruin.”
She did not want to believe that. “He was one man. One sick man with an arrow in his leg. A horse brought him here, not a god.” A pale mare.
I See What You Did There, Martin. Nothing like a little Revelations to brighten up your day!
By the way, Barristan is absolutely right about keeping those refugees out of the city. “Bloody flux,” or dysentery as we call it these days, killed more U.S. soldiers in the Civil War than the actual war did, and it is highly contagious. I know this because of my learnings.
It’s also how I learned that if you think the United States never had concentration camps on its soil, you’re wrong. And unfortunately, it seems like Dany is being forced to set up her own little Andersonville, right outside the walls of the city.
Not that I think that’s actually going to help Meereen, really. With crap sanitation infrastructure, pun intended, little or no concept of proper hygiene, and no antibiotics for treatment? Galazza’s assessment of the man on the horse is just about dead right. With emphasis on the “dead” part.
And they let the dude right in the walls.
Shit. Pun also intended.
When does the fun stop, is what I want to know.
In other news, I raised a very distrustful eyebrow at Dany’s blithe acceptance of Ben Plumm’s suggestion that she give him a shit ton of gold and jewels and then send him haring off into the countryside with it. Sure, he might go try to bribe other mercenaries with it… or he might just take the money and run. At this point I almost wouldn’t be able to blame him if he did.
“Almost” being the functional word there. Which brings us to:
Afterward, Ser Barristan told her that her brother Rhaegar would have been proud of her. Dany remembered the words Ser Jorah had spoken at Astapor: Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.
Yeah, that’s about the crux of it, isn’t it. This is the fundamental question Martin keeps coming back to over and over again. If anything could be said to be the theme of ASOIAF, in fact, it’s this: the question of whether honor is honorable when employed in an honorless world.
It remains to be seen where Martin’s story will come down on the question – or whether it will choose an answer at all – but as it stands at this particular junction, a betting person would certainly lay odds on the “fuck honor” option.
That’s not a stance I agree with, personally. But I am also aware that in comparison to many people (and certainly in comparison to most of the characters in ASOIAF), I have led a singularly privileged and sheltered life, where such questions tend to be much more in the arena of the abstract and theoretical than they are of urgent and imminent reality. In other words, I must consider the possibility that idealism is a luxury that not everyone can afford.
…But even given that, I still must hope that there are principles worth standing up for. The trouble is knowing which principles those are, and whether they are worth everything. I really don’t think Dany is doing the smart thing, but I do have to respect that she is doing what she thinks is the right thing, and hope that doing it doesn’t get her and all her people killed.
Historically, though, in this series… well, that may turn out to be a sucker’s bet.
Chapter 31: Melisandre
What Happens
Melisandre watches the flames and prays to R’hllor to grant her a glimpse of Stannis, but instead she sees the eyeless faces again, towers crumbling into the sea, shadows shaped like skulls, bodies writhing together, great winged shadows in the sky. She thinks that she needs to see the grey girl on the dying horse, for Jon Snow will expect it of her. She sees a wooden white face with a thousand red eyes, and a boy with a wolf’s face beside him, and knows that the face sees her too. She sees Jon Snow, alternately a man and a wolf, and sees that he is surrounded by skulls; she knows he is in danger, and reflects that unbelievers never listen until it is too late. She is annoyed that she prayed to see Azor Ahai, but only saw Snow instead.
She reflects on her squire Devan; though she knows he wanted to go with Stannis, she had specifically requested him to stay with her where it was safer, as her tribute to Devan’s father Davos and his loyalty to Stannis. She wonders if the wooden face she’d seen was the face of the enemy, but dismisses it as not scary enough. She thinks Jon Snow is at least savvy enough to demand that she come to him instead of the other way around. She sends Devan to fetch Rattleshirt, and reflects that she is running low on her poisons and special effects powders, but comforts herself that she is more powerful at the Wall than she has been anywhere else, and soon will no longer need to resort to cheap tricks.
When the wildling arrives, wreathed in shadows, she observes that he is not wearing his bones. He replies that the clacking was driving him mad, and she reminds him that the bones protect him; they are part of the spell that makes people see what they expect to see, and if it fails, they will kill him. This doesn’t concern the wildling overmuch. They discuss her vision of the eyeless rangers, and he says that is the Weeper’s signature move, and it’s not good if the wildlings are turning to him instead of Tormund. Melisandre pretends to care about this, and then goes about trying to convince him to rescue Jon Snow’s sister to gain his trust.
They are interrupted by the horn announcing the rangers’ return. Melisandre leaves the wildling in her rooms and goes down to the Wall and under it, to where Jon Snow and others are examining the eyeless heads of three rangers skewered on spears and planted in the ground. Snow orders the heads taken down and burned, and then asks Melisandre to walk with him, to her satisfaction. He asks about the other six rangers, and she promises to look for them. He tells her of reports of the wildlings massing opposite Shadow Tower. She tells him about her vision of towers submerged in a tide; he assumes she means Eastwatch, and she agrees even though she thinks that is the wrong answer.
She invites him to her rooms to talk further, and he goes, though she feels his mistrust. She reflects that Snow and Stannis have more in common than they would admit. Snow is upset to find Rattleshirt in her rooms, and incensed at the idea of sending him after his sister, declaring that he’d be more likely to rape and murder Arya than rescue her. Melisandre removes the glamour on the wildling, revealing him to be not Rattleshirt but Mance Rayder. Jon is astonished, and she explains how the real Rattleshirt was burned in Mance’s stead. She says that Mance owes his life to Jon, and will not betray him.
“I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god.” She pointed with a pale finger. “There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya’s deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light… and me.”
Commentary
Before I even read a word: MOTHER PUS BUCKET ARE YOU KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW.
Goddammit, this had better not be Jaime Lannister all over again. Can’t I just distrust and dislike a character in peace over here?
Ugh.
Okay, so, now I have actually read the chapter, and… okay, I’ll get to the Mance thing in a minute, but first, it definitely clears up a few things about Melly, sort of mostly in her favor. For one, it answers my question of whether Melisandre was ever a slave. I still wonder how she got out of the cheek tattoo thing, though.
For another, it seems that her belief that Stannis is The One True Savior is absolutely sincere, which at least rescues her from the accusation of hypocrisy. So that’s nice. It’s also nice that she is trying to protect Davos’s son… though defining Castle Black as “safer” than being on campaign with Stannis really seems like nearly wild-eyed optimism on Melisandre’s part. At least down south he’ll have a much lower chance of being turned into Night of the Frozen Dead. But, you know, blah blah thought that counts blah. So, good on her for that.
However, while it also seems that she has no active malice toward Jon Snow, she very clearly regards him as a means to an end, i.e. disposable if necessary. Which is kind of ironic, because:
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.
Uh…
The vision of Jon with skulls is pretty disturbing, though her conversation with him later in the chapter indicates that in Melisandre’s version of fortune-telling, a future she sees can be averted. So there’s that. She’d better hope so, anyway, if that little bit of irony above is actually foreshadowing and not a red herring.
How about some more vision interpretation? Okay!
The eyeless faces, obviously, are already explained. If the crumbling towers aren’t Eastwatch, then… well, this could be any number of places, depending on how you define “tower.” I mean, pick a city or hold on a coastline: King’s Landing, Meereen, Casterly Rock, White Harbor, Volantis, Braavos… the list goes on and on. So, not especially useful at this point.
Winged shadows in the sky: duh. And skulls represent death? Well, no kidding, Melly. I took Art History 101 too!
Shadows shaped like skulls + bodies sexing = Magical Shadow Assassin Babies™? Though you’d think Melisandre would recognize that for what it is, seeing as, well, they’re her creations. As an aside, she seems awfully afraid of shadows for someone who produces them (literally) on the regular. But then again, maybe she just knows better than most what shadows are capable of.
The wooden face and wolf-faced boy are pretty obviously Bran and the plant-throne dude he met up with when we last saw him. I’m also pretty sure that describing him as “plant-throne dude” is inducing palpitations somewhere among my readership, but hey, I have to categorize him somehow, and until I get more information on him I might as well make it amusing while I’m at it, eh?
Everything else she sees just seems to generically point at conflict happening on or near the Wall, which also falls under the category of duh.
I skipped over the part where she talks about how she hates sleeping and fears dreaming and never gets more than an hour of sleep a night, but you know, if I were still in the mindset where I was trying to explain away her visions as delusional instead of real magic, I could make a really solid case based on sleep deprivation-induced hallucinations, because damn. I’m pretty sure you cannot survive in the long term with only an hour of sleep in every 24… unless you are a priestess-slash-sorceress, evidently. Must be nice!
As for Mance: well, hey there, Mance! It appears the rumors of your fiery horrific death were visited upon a much more deserving asshole instead! Congrats!
Of course, now he has to go around pretending to be that asshole, which has to suck. Still, well-played, Melly (and Martin): toooootally did not see that one coming. Nice.
It puts that duel he had with Jon Snow earlier in a very different light, that’s for sure. I’m sure at least a part of that was Mance getting a little revenge on Jon for his betrayal, but unlike the real Rattleshirt, I don’t think Mance genuinely wants Jon dead, either practically or personally. So that’s definitely a relief. Unless I’m totally wrong, of course. Which I could be. But hey, if it’s a choice between Rattleshirt traipsing around, and Mance Rayder pretending to be Rattleshirt traipsing around, there’s really just no fuckin’ contest there.
I’m a little unclear on how this great hoax was devised – like, I would absolutely love to know whether Mance suggested it to Melisandre or the other way around – nor am I clear on what the ultimate endgame is here for either of them, but it’s definitely an extremely interesting development that I am definitely intrigued to see where it will go. *chinhands*
In any case, I do hope that Mance actually succeeds in rescuing not-Arya aka Jeyne Poole, for her sake obviously more than for Jon’s, and doesn’t take the opportunity to ride off into the sunset so he doesn’t have to wear annoying bone suits anymore.
In conclusion re: Melisandre: well, obviously everyone always regards themselves as the protagonist/hero of their own story, and owing to the way we’ve been trained as readers, getting inside a character’s head almost inevitably inclines us to sympathize more with them than we did while outside it. This is a psychological trick Martin has exploited ruthlessly in his ongoing quest to make us sympathize with characters who really, really don’t deserve it.
The thing about Melisandre, though, is that however sympathetic she appears in this chapter, she still strikes me as extremely dangerous. Not so much for what she can do (though that’s plenty dangerous enough), but for how she sees the world. Regardless of whether her single-minded, zealous certainty that Stannis has to save the world is true or not, it remains that “single-minded, zealous certainty” can have disastrous results for anyone who gets in its way.
And there are an awful lot of people who could potentially get in her way. And at the moment, it looks like Bran and Jon are at the top of that list. And that is Not Good.
And that’s what I have to say about that, so y’all go gaze into a fire or something for a week and then come back next Thursday for Moar! Yay!
There was one sneaky, subtle hint that Rattleshirt may have been more than meets the eye in an earlier Jon chapter in this book when they dueled. There was dialogue to the effect that when ManceShirt took up the sword to start the fight, Jon noticed he suddenly looked more powerful and imposing or something to that effect.
Sort of thing that goes right over one’s head until they read this chapter, though, and realize that due to Rattleshirt’s way of liking to handle things, the glamour faded a bit due to him actually partaking in an honorable duel.
Or, I guess another hint might be that, the way Rattleshirt was written as a character, the concept of him schooling Mr. Sword Prodigy who kicks the living hell out of every single person on the wall, often in 3-on-1 training sessions, is utterly insane.
Now as to how Mel decided to spare Mance, that’s a bit more up in the air. He must have done some quick talking to convince her that “King of the North” does not mean he’s an actual king or anything close to royalty COMBINED with her thinking that keeping him around may lead to Jon being a bit less suspicious and more trusting of her, as Jon did have a good relationship with Mance during his brief sojourn as a Wildling.
@Robert, it might have been her way of saving royal blood for later, when she really needs it. No telling what freezing it would do to the magical properties.
Interesting mirror image: Mel pulls the Mance-Rattleshirt switch on Jon, and eventually tells him about it.
Jon pulls the Mance-Gilly baby switch on Mel.
As for whose idea was it to switch Mance & Rattleshirt, I don’t even remember, whose idea was it to execute Mance at all? Was it all Mel, or was it Stannis, or did Jon have a say in it?
(I’m sure the fire part was all Mel).
And here I was thinking that Leigh would be favorably excited to see a Melisandre chapter. Kind of like getting to the Addie chapter in As I Lay Dying.
Good to have you back in action, Leigh!
Dany’s situation sucks. I certainly wouldn’t want to be her. Siege, rebellion, and now plague too? Oh, and prophecies of betrayal. Good times.
Melisandre is… interesting to see from within. Yeah, that Azor Ahai/Snow line is fairly blatant to us readers, as well as the towers probably not being Eastwatch. But things are often so much clearer from the outside. Mentions of how her magic is stronger at the Wall. As for the lack of slave tattoo – if she can make Mance look like Rattleshirt, surely she can make herself look different as well?
GRRM may not know much about kids’ ages, but he knows teenage attitude just fine. I have two teenagers at home – one a girl.
We have a big dog. The kids loved it as a puppy, now they ignore it. Dany loved her dragons when they were pups and even taught them the single command – to breathe fire. Then they got bigger and higher maintenance, and she forgot all about them in favor of ruling cities and making eyes at her punk-rock sellsword.
When confronted with her laziness and stupidity, Dany does the teenager thing (just like every hack politician). Instead of answering the question, she gets nasty and insulting. Evades the answer and expects others to fix her problems without any effort on her part. She needs to be sent to her room without her IPhone.
Leigh, I was actually expecting a bit more screaming and headdesking when you saw that Melisandre was a POV character; I’m impressed by your restraint.
I was never as anti-Meli as you are, so for me this chapter wasn’t much of a revelation about her motivations. I’ve always believed she is sincere, just misguided because she misinterpreted ONE thing before we ever met her, and it’s HUGE. Namely, she believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai. Everything she has done might be correct if that were true, but unfortunately for her, it seems quite unlikely that she picked the right guy to back as AA. Of course, her interpretations often are problematic, as this whole business of “Arya” has shown.
I was so happy that “Rattleshirt” was really Mance; Mance technically still deserves to die for betraying the Night Watch, but I’m glad he didn’t, and I’m totally fine with Rattleshirt dying in his stead.
As for the Dany chapter, I think the big problem she’s having is one of identity. Early in her journey, she was guided by being “a dragon”, but since she got to Meereen she has bogged down and lost direction. Her place is Westeros, not Slavers Bay, and she should never, never, NEVER consider marrying freaking Hizdahr, who is obviously allied with the Harpy if not the Harpy himself.
I really want to add something, but I can’t think of anything, considering these two chapters are pretty much the most speculation inducing chapters in the whole series.
I enjoyed that despite being totally sincere in her beliefs, they also showed that she’s not above lying about what she sees in her visions to serve her own end.
“She Prayed to see Azor Ahai but only saw Snow instead” Those Red God Clerics can get tunnel vision.
The more interesting question for me is not so much what goes on inside Melisandre’s head, but Rh’llor. Now we know that Mel is sincere in her belief, and she clearly has power, but:
1. Is Rh’llor truly a God? If not, then what is he/what’s the difference?
2. What kind of God would he be? Old Testament wrath & ruin? A sociopathic jerk, as per the Greeks? Or just… alien? Does he look at Westeros the way we would look at an herb garden?
3. Or are is Westeros just one giant boardgame for the Gods?
@3. I believe it was Stannis who insisted that as a deserter from the NW, Mance must die. So apparently Mel doesn’t feel any need to actually obey the orders of the Saviour of The World, wonder what would happen if someone suggested to her that her actions regarding Mance may have doomed the world?
@7 I have lots to say about the Mel chapter, but yeah. In another 40 chapters or so there will be no more spoilers (except for speculation and stuff gleaned from the TV show), unless Winds of Winter is released by then.
In reference to concentration camps in the United States, I can’t understand how you don’t mention Manzanar and other Japanese internment camps.
@7 – House of Undying wins for the full series but this has plenty, thank you very much.
Re slave tattoos – those seem to be targeted to slaves in Volantis area – do they even do that in Slaver’s Bay? But Mel is from Asshai so who knows what the traditions are way out there in the far Easst.
Nice sign of the power of Bran and the Three Eyed Crow that they are both easily visible to Mel in power mode, and that they can see her in return.
“…only Snow” is such a great line. Encapsulates the concern that Mel may have real powers but has interpretation issues. In fact, query whether she has ever correctly interpreted a vision. Do we know?
@13, Every sentence I want to type right now goes
“And back in…”
“Remember when..”
And
“OOOH, that one time…”
Regarding the question of whether honor has a place in the ASOIAF world, things are (probably on purpose) *really* ambiguous.
Ned and Robb Stark were very honorable and, while some can argue that has led them to their deaths (I don’t agreed very much with that), what is their legacy? To this day, there are people loyal to them (Lyanna Mormont, Wyman Manderly), even if they are dead.
Tywin was the ultimate pragmatic asshole, and what happened? He was killed by his own son, his dinasty is tearing itself apart and is paranoid that everyone around them might betray them.
Regarding Rhaegar, he fought honorably… on the same side as his dad, who burned people alive as a trial. He was in defense of his dinasty, of course, but still the main reason people were attacking it was because his father was mad. And there are people (Doran, Illyrio, Griff) on his side to this day. Maybe for the wrong reasons (revenge, mostly), but still.
Yeah, that’s a serious “Really, Melly, really?” moment right there.
I actually think what Melly sees can not be averted, but is the actual future. Because when she saw Renly defeating Stannis in battle in her fires what she actually saw was a Renly impersonator (Garlan Tyrell) defeating Stannis in battle, a scenario that only came to pass because she misinterpreted the vision and had Renly killed.
Can’t I just distrust and dislike a character in peace over here?
Among the POV characters, Victarion Greyjoy is (IMO) the least sympathetic. And I don’t think it’s much of a spoiler to say that you’ll be seeing more of him.
Dany’s in second place, after Theon/Reek, for POV Character I Least Want To Be At This Point In The Story. Life more or less sucks for most of them, but she’s watching whole cities full of comparatively-innocent people suffer and die because of her actions — and unlike the Westeros-wrecking Lannisters etc., her whole intent had been to save and free them.
They should’ve seen the flux coming, though. “Danaerys T” is almost an anagram of “Dysentery.”
The flux has long been present in Meereen, it seems. When they were trying to besiege the city in ASOS, someone told Dany that a few of her people had gotten it from drinking out of the sewage-fouled river while the Meereenese get their drinking water from wells. Astapor might’ve been similar, but I think I can see how war would cause an epidemic with the massive infrastructure breakdown, homelessness, famine, corpses, etc.
From UNspoiled:
“Let them eat soldiers” – re the dragons
“Danaerys is the Sansa of rulers, wanting to live in a fairy tale where everyone loves her because she has a good heart.”
Their take on why she’s so reluctant to kill people now: she’s a rescuer, as Tyrion said. She’ll kill when fighting tyrants, but not when she’s the tyrant, even if doing so might save other lives.
@1, I always understood the subtle shift in the glamour to be caused by the removal of the bones. Not so much just fighting style. I completely missed it on my first read of course.
I’m not so sure I take it that way–I think what GRRM is trying to emphasize is putting honor above reason, or wisdom. As for the quote about Rhaegar, well from Jorah’s POV maybe he did see honor as the ultimate stupidity because it got Rhaegar killed, but I take it as: The man died trying to be honorable instead of smart, and because he died now more people are suffering than would have if he had just kept himself safe.
The same could be said of Ned: a lot of what he did was “for honor” and because of this he’s gotten everyone into a much bigger mess. Although I think a lot of what Ned did was selfishness as well (such as admitting treason to protect his kids, as well as giving Cersei the chance to “get out” to protect her children. I think you could argue that Ned wasn’t quite as honorable as people believe him to be, but then I guess it also depends on your definition of honor).
Anyhow… I guess my point is, it’s not that GRRM hates honor. I think he’s just trying to show us how trying to be noble or honorable in a realistic/craptastic world isn’t always the best thing. It won’t always end in rainbows and unicorns. Deconstruction and alla that.
@5 LOL, a very apt description. This is how I felt about Dany through all of ADWD. Even reading about the Meereenese Blot didn’t really help my opinion of her. I have commented before though how interesting it is that GRRM can get us rooting for a bloodthirsty tyrant (i.e., Dany pre-Meereen), whereas when she’s tempered and trying to rule “justly” we really… don’t like her.
I think part of the problem lies in that she’s not being a very intelligent ruler. She’s clearly making some deals here that don’t seem on the up and up, while also being an infatuated teenager. She tries to rationalize marrying Hizdahr as “doing what’s best for her people” but I think that’s just self-delusion. It’s not the best course of action, for her or her people. But because we see it from inside her head, we are more inclined to believe what she thinks about herself. I think that’s where a bit of cognitive dissonance comes for the readers throughout the Dany chapters in ADWD. Or, just makes us irritated with her.
On a final note, I always thought the line from Mel being “more powerful at the Wall” was intriguing. I mean, Mel admits that shadows are creations of light, servants of it. But she seems to not even bat an eye at the fact that she’s stronger when in contact with the Wall, ICE magic, which I would assume opposes Fire. I suppose she could go with some dichotomy of nature excuse, but then my question would be: Wouldn’t your god R’hllor then just be one half of the real god? This “Other” that she refers to as a separate, opposing god, then seems like it should really just be part of the one. Maybe the Faceless Men have it right after all.
Little to no sleep, no eating, warm in sparse clothing despite the winter conditions and a huge ice cube towering above everyone? Doesn’t set off any alarm bells?
I don’t know if a lot of people believe this because we don’t have any other info, but I am quite positive she’s UnMel, kind of like Beric and Cat but better preserved.
This Melisandre POV is rather controversial. Many readers unhappily felt that some of her mystique and impressiveness was lost by this look into her fallible mind and magic. Personally, I loved it. She went from a standard religious fanatic (generally of little interest to me unless they worship something aquatic) to a person with an intriguing past, struggling to make sense of weird omens and do what she thinks is best. It’s hard to like someone who burns people alive or sends demons to assassinate them — though many POV characters have committed similar or worse atrocities by now — but I definitely wanted to learn more about her.
I can sympathize with her acting more sure of her visions than she is, e.g. saying the seaside tower is Eastwatch although she doesn’t konw where it is. I volunteer at a paleontology museum where people can find tiny fossils in bits of shale. Today a school group was doing so, and my haste to ID everyone’s fossils quickly, I’d sometimes say a shell was a brachiopod — or bivalve — without really knowing which it was, though I’ve had much practice in IDing them. I thought of Mel, though for her the stakes interpretation are much higher.
I figure that if she has a slave tattoo, she’s probably hiding it with glamor magic.
@20. Regarding Mel feeling stronger at the wall. It could be another misinterpretation by Mel, she thinks the Wall is making her stronger but its actually just magic getting stronger everywhere?
I have been revisiting this Read and realized the other day that GRRM in large part chooses his POV characters based on what he wants the readers to know (example: the Big Reveal in book 1 was the incest, and considering that Jon Arryn and Stannis were in cahoots to reveal that, we couldn’t get a POV from Stannis until book 2).
So when a new character is introduced, they are usually either a character whose role was previously too minor but who suddenly is playing a significant role in The Main Events, or an always-important major player but only AFTER the reader has come into possession of whatever knowledge from another source. Which is Melly? (I’m not sure, honestly asking here.)
By the same token, if we never get a POV from a particular character, that often means they know WAY TOO MANY THINGS we are not supposed to know. So whose heads have we never been in, and why is that significant? What do those folks know, and what are their motivations?
…or makeup.
@21, That’s a thought I haven’t had
At least Melony can pass through/under the wall, unlike some other unnamed cold-handed gents.
@27. Can she though? The way they came back through isn’t protected that way, or else they couldn’t have brought through the wights that tried to kill Mormont.
@24: I don’t recall any POV chapters for Varys or Littlefinger, both of whom could reveal much that we don’t know.
Ah, Miss Melly, first you think she’s all Savonarola, and then she goes all Machiavelli on you.
gomiller @24 – We never do get a POV from Stannis, only from Davos. Other POVs that never happen because they might tell us too much are Tywin and Varys.
I have sometimes thought about, at what point does honor become selfish? At what point is it just about being able to live with your own ideals, despite the consequences to others? But then on the other hand, that almost starts to wander into the territory of ‘ends justify the means’ and saying that sometimes the ‘honorable’ thing is to do something that is against your ideals.
I suppose that is the thing with ideals – should they always be uncompromising, and is that a virtue? Or should they be on a sliding scale (and how slide-y?)? Thankfully I also am living a life where this is mostly abstract, or where, perhaps, these types of dillemas are things like ‘should I be late for work’ (to me puctuality is an ideal) or ‘should I be late, but because I need to take some extra time to comfort somebody’. In other words, the stakes are not high.
In the case of Ned, he chose to dishonor himself for family
@24, 31. I’m not sure I agree with that. Martin can hide things that his POV characters know, eg we don’t find out about Dany’s plan in Astapor until she carries it out even though we are in her head. Similarly, we still don’t know who Jon’s mother is after all the Ned chapters.
And GRRM works it the other way round too, in this Mel chapter he tells the readers something (Stannis is not AA) that Mel herself doesn’t know.
@19 I think you’re probably right. I was going off memory and that fits in with what Mel was saying here about how wearing the bones is essential to maintaining the glamour.
Regardless, I had no idea what it meant, but I knew there had to be some significance to Rattleshirt suddenly changing appearance subtlely and also being that awesome in a fight, as every portrayal of him beforehand painted him as more mean and brutal, but not so much a master of swordsmanship.
Welcome back, Leigh! Honor is a tough topic…both in interpretation and in practice…and it interweaves throughout these books. Jon was reared with a fairly fixed idea of honor. When he went to the Wall, he embraced another fairly fixed idea of honor. But Qhorin tells Jon to put aside his concepts of honor and to say anything or do anything he must do to protect the Wall: “Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe.” Obviously Ned made a similar choice to swallow his honor (and pride) to protect Sansa. But the choices faced by Martin’s characters are rarely easy or simple.
For instance, I yet wonder about Catelyn’s honor at the Red Wedding. She put her knife to the neck of a child-like bystander and vowed on her honor to kill him. When Robb was executed, she followed through on her vow: she slit the throat of poor Aegon (Jinglebell). But what was the honorable choice here? Was it more honorable to keep her vow? Would it have been less honorable to spare the life of an innocent? Robb was dead. The only thing she gained was the satisfaction of keeping her vow. An awful choice.
There are innumerable examples in these books with difficult choices and evolving definitions of honor. They are quite thought-provoking and often leave me grateful for the luxury of ‘honor’ in which I am permitted to live most of the time IRL.
It is notable that Mel feels some of what her glamoree feels. We were set up to worry about how angry Mel would be to be deprived of her sacrifice to the fire because Jon Snow killed “Mance” with arrows to stop the death by burning. Here, in fact, we learn how relieved she was because she was in pain. I did not see that coming.
It wasn’t Ned Stark’s honor that got him killed. It was his gross abject stupidity.
Anyone who walks up to the Queen (who has a rep for being mean, devious and vicious) and says “yo, I know youse kids are from Jaime and not the king, but I’ll give you till daybreak to get out of dodge” isn’t working with a full deck. Only a bleeding moron does what Ned did.
@24 Alas, I wouldn’t assume that the characters who don’t have POV chapters are somehow more in the know than ones who do, because GRRM doesn’t reveal everything POV characters themselves know. For instance, Ned Stark obviously knew a lot about Jon Snow that we only speculate about.
I think Martin’s conundrum about honor is not actualy about honor per se … but about hero’s honor vs rueler’s honor. Surely it is honorable for a hero to risk his own life to protect an innocent in danger. But is it really honorable for a ruler of a kingdom to risk his own life as well as the lifes of thousands of his subjects to do the same thing?
@38. or someone unwilling to kill children.
@31, 34 the fact that there is no POV with Stannis to me either indicates a) he is a pawn, not a player – OR – b) he knows MOAR THINGS that we’re not supposed to know yet. And the sneaky-sneaky GRRM hiding things that characters would probably think about when we’re in their heads are the weakest parts of the work, places the narrative fails.
Either way, it’s interesting to think that GRRM is using POV not only to choose what to reveal, but what not to reveal. Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys no doubt, natch. Who else? Ilyrio Mopatis? Doran Martell?
gomiller @@@@@ 42: GRRM can never write a Littlefinger POV, because if he did, no one would ever want to read anything else!
@10: Stannis made the decision to execute Mance as a king, nor as Azor Ahai Reborn. He insisted Mance had to be executed because it was the law of Westeros – deserters from Night’s Watch must die. It had nothing to do with Saving the World. Melisandre is not interested in Westerosi laws, or any laws, she’s not interested in Stannis as a king, she only cares about the war against the Great Other and Stannis’ role as AAR. No doubt she is also aware that Stannis primarily sees himself as the king (Stannis is always making that clear and obvious) just like he’s aware that she’s primarily about the Lord of Light and only has been helping him in his pursuit of the throne because she sees him as the savior fiture. If Mel thinks Mance will be useful or important in the war she finds far more interesting than the Westerosi civil wars, of course she will deceive Stannis if she has to – and she knows that he is absolutely stubborn and unyielding when it comes to some issues, like observing the law.
@43: GRRM can’t write Littlefinger’s POV not only because it would reveal too much, but also because it would otherwise be the most annoying thing ever. Just imagine it. Every moment, every line that’s not revealing some big secret, would be either Littlefinger congratulating himself on how smart he is, drooling over Sansa, or still whining over why he didn’t get to marry Catelyn almost 20 years ago. Even his biggest fans would get fed up with it after a couple of chapters.
Ned Stark didn’t die because he was stupid or honorable, he died because Littlefinger is a snivelling bastard.
Had Ned acted like Tyrion, removing Janos Slynt from the City Watch, and sending Lannister’s men away on some excuse, he could give Cersei any forewarning he wanted, and she wouldn’t be able to do shit…
Ok, he’s a little stupid.
@42 The fact that there’s no POV from Stannis indicates to me that Stannis is a king. GRRM gives us no POVs from any king—not Robert, Joffrey, Robb, Stannis, Renly, Balon, Tommen, Young Griff, Mance, Euron… no one who considers himself a king is a POV character. We get queens (Daenerys, Cersei), but no kings.
re Azor Ahai
“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath ofdarkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall beLightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”
I take the bleeding star to be the comet, and the only thing of significance that happened when it passed was Dany giving birth to dragons, wich aren’t swords but surely can burn
Leigh
At the end of your post you said that “”single-minded, zealous certainty” can have disastrous results for anyone who gets in its way”. That’s certainly true.
On the other hand, a lot of great people – eg Ghandi, Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, William Wilberforce – could be very single minded about what they wanted. That kind of determination can be good as well as bad.
@44
I think a littlefinger pov would be fantastic. The insight into one of the most enigmatic characters in the series, even in a short story? TAKE MY MONEY! Ditto Varys. Every time I hear some of the eunuch’s backstory, especially with Illyrio, I can imagine the possibilities. Plenty of short story material.
@50: I think we already have more than enough insight into LF to know what his motivations, personality and background are. I don’t see any mystery regarding any of those. The only thing that his POV would reveal is exactly what his schemes are and what he plans to do, and whether/to what extent he was lying to Sansa about the Harry the Heir plan – and GRRM would not want to reveal that to the readers.
“On the other hand, a lot of great people – eg Ghandi, Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, William Wilberforce – could be very single minded about what they wanted. That kind of determination can be good as well as bad.”
@48 – Single minded, yes. But I’m pretty sure all of those figures weren’t filled with “zealous certainty” that they were charting the correct course. They were willing to question their actions and motivations and revise them based on new information. Melisandre, and religious fanatics in general in the real world, tend to lack that capacity.
@51
What? grrm would never want to reveal littlefingers schemes to the readers? I disagree, a strategically placed littlefinger pov could work. i would love to hear his internal monologue, surely it would be a match for Tyrion’s. And it wouldn’t have to be relevant to the main story of asoiaf. Maybe a seperate story showing his rise from petty Lord to master of coin? I’m intrigued by the character as much as his ‘current’ schemes.
@44: So Littlefinger’s POV would be like Cersei’s in AFFC, only with a different person being drooled over.
‘Fraid I can’t spend the week staring into a fire. I’m going off to become a ranger. In the US Forest Service, that is. Frozen zombies will probably not be involved.
As always, thanks to Leigh for a great post. You’re the best!
@6 I agree that the law says Mance must die, but I’ve changed my mind about him breaking his vow — he was raised as part of the Watch, so I don’t think he really had much say in the matter. He was indoctrinated from the start, so breaking his vow is really just taking control of his life for the first time.
Also, he & Dany are the only rulers to base their actions on what is best for their people, rather than just for their own power (even Stannis goes North to prove he’s the rightful king).
Of course, I like Mance, so I’m biased!
Hmm, who else’s POV’s could reveal interesting things?
Well, Hizdahr; And while we’re thinking out of the box, how about Bloodraven?
Naupathia @20:
Given the fact that the Wall had been intended to confine ice creatures such as the Others and their wights, I don’t think it likely that ice magic was used.
As to gods, well it is a question whether they exist in that world. Some people being able to perform magic is not proof of divine interference, no matter what they’d like to believe.
Bookworm 1398 @23:
she thinks the Wall is making her stronger but its actually just magic getting stronger everywhere?
The magic is getting stronger everywhere, yes, but didn’t she also think how her magic had been much stronger in Asshai than elsewhere even in the past? It seems that there have always been places where magic was easier to perform, even during the nadir of it’s potency. So, it is entirely possible that her magic is additionally enhanced at the Wall, yes.
Aegon the Pothead @47:
There is also this:
It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.” –Melisandre, SoS
It still might be that it is Jon, somehow, or that more than one person would be involved in fulfillment of the AA prophecies. OTOH, Melisandre must have seen something that led her to Stannis, too, and misinterpreted what it meant.
Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.
This quote, and more importantly the thought process behind it really irks me. It’s also why I tired of Sandor’s cynicism. I get it, honor isn’t an impenetrable shield, but you know what? Gregor was a sociopath. Gregor was a child murderer. Gregor was a rapist. And Gregor died.* You can add Vargo Hoat, Joffrey, Amory Lorch, and Rattleshirt to that list.
So the whole “Where did Ned’s honor get him?” question is pointless. It got him the same place as his brother Brandon’s hot-headedness, Robert’s dissolution, and Tywin’s ruthless calculation. The Braavosi have it right: all men must die. And if everybody dies, then what matters is how you lived.
@58 well then maybe the message should be, if you have a character trait that gets you killed, maybe you took it a little too far.
Thank you, Tyler Soze.
IT’s what I’ve been trying to say for such a long time.
@15
Tywin didn’t die because he was a pragmatic asshole, but because of his “honor”. He loved his wife dearly, thus he could never forgive Tyrion for killing her. Such hatred was a common theme for tortured widowers. Tywin also stayed single, which was not pragmatic at all since he should have remarried. Not only would it forged new alliances, but also to create more heirs. He did that out of love for his late wife. I never found Tywin to be pragmatic. He loved his family (maybe except Tyrion, although he did spare him just because he was a Lannister) in his way and lived by his pride. It’s a twisted honor yes, but still not unprincipled. His family (except Tyrion) actually loved him and the Lannisters were pretty united under him.
@58, They say, “Evil prevails when good men fail to act.” What they ought to say is, “Evil prevails.” Maybe we should just say “People dies”.
Ned died because he didn’t have the balls to tell his fried Robert that his wife was a whore and their kids bastards. And he was too stupid to realize how dangerous Cersie was. Honor had nothing to do with it.
@61,
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. I mean, it doesn’t hurt to look at the decisions that led to a person’s downfall. However, there seems to be this tendency to generalize that the downfall of “honorable” characters somehow proves that there’s no point to being honorable because you’ll just die. I mean, who really reads the story and thinks Ned Stark believed he’d be immortal because he was honorable? If Littlefinger dies screaming and Barristan Selmy is still kicking butt and taking names at 110, does that then prove that honor really is best?
@61: Tywin hating Tyrion had absolutely nothing to do with honor. How the hell is it honorable to hate your child for being a dwarf, or to blame a baby for his mother’s death?! Tywin not remarrying has nothing to do with honor, it has everything to do with Tywin not wanting to remarry, and Tywin being a huge hypocrite, since he didn’t care about what other people, including own his children, wanted, and kept imposing political marriages on them.
Tywin did not love any of his children, and they did not love him. The only person he ever seems to have loved was Joanna. He may not have hated Cersei and Jaime, but he never gave a damn about them as people, only as status symbols. He never cared what either of them wanted, and tried to ignore all the signs that they were not the perfect son and daughter he wanted them to be. His response to Cersei telling him she did not want to get married again was to completely ignore her wishes and not even treat her as an adult person with a will of her own: “You are my daughter and you will do as you are told!” (Additionally ironic since she actually outranked him as Queen Regent, and he should have been listening to her orders, as Tyrion internally acknowledged during that scene.) His response to Jaime asserting his own will and refusing to leave KG, go to Casterly Rock and marry Margaery was to disown him: “You are not my son!” Jamie was his most treasured child because he was his able-bodied, perfect son and heir, not because he was Jamie, and it was a huge disappointment to Tywin that Jamie did not care to be what Tywin wanted him to be.
And they did really not love him, either. Cersei’s feelings for Tywin are a complicated mix of idolization and resentment, but there’s no love there (and GRRM has said himself that the only people Cersei ever loved were Jaime and her children). Jamie was never as strongly affected by Tywin as his siblings – unlike Cersei and Tyrion, he never really felt driven to impress Tywin, or to be like him, and, while he doesn’t feel hatred or resentment for Tywin like they do, he just doesn’t care that much as they do. His reaction after Tywin’s death (much like to Joffrey’s) was that he knew he was supposed to be in deep grief, but he was not. And the most telling moment was when his aunt Genna told him she was sorry for his loss, and he immediately thought of his sword hand, rather than his father.
Forgot to add: Tywin always had shit for honor, and people never thought of him as honorable. Someone who is even remotely honorable does not routinely trample over ethics and rules of conduct, does not order rapes and child murders, does not order his soldiers to murder, gang rape and torture smallfolk during war, does not organize massacres that will shock the entire realm because they involve the breach of something that’s considered sacred, guest right. Tywin Lannister’s actions and reputation are the exact opposite of honor.
And the one thing I do agree with is that he was not really a pragmatist. Pragmatists don’t spend years simmering over old grudges and humiliations, don’t alienate their child who has most talent to rule because of their resentment and humiliation of having a dwarf for son, and are not motivated to that extent by the desire to get back at anyone who has crossed them at some point (even if it’s by daring to marry the prince he wanted his daughter to marry).
What always drove Tywin was neither honor, nor love, nor hate, nor duty, nor justice, nor any desire to do good for the realm (he didn’t give a damn for anyone who was not a Lannister, and considered smallfolk barely human), it was pride.
@66: Ned’s main problem was not honor, but a soft heart – he was worried that Robert would have the children killed if he found out they were products of his wife’s incestuous, adulterous affair, so he wanted to warn Cersei, and he also couldn’t bring himself to hurt Robert during his dying moments by telling him the truth – and his inability to correctly read people: he assumed that Cersei would run away and take the children to safety, because that was what he would probably do in a similar situation, and he never considered that Cersei was ambitious, power-obsessed, ruthless and dangerous, or that, in Cersei’s mind, the only way to be safe and able to protect your children was to be at the top of the food chain.
The last post was meant to be in reply to @62, of course.
@47, 57: Melisandre in ACOK: “There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.In this dread hour, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”
Melisandre em ADWD: “When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”
I had incorrectly interpreted (translation error) which would be a hero that would create the sword and Azor Ahai who clasps Lightbringer.
Melisandre may have interpreted this prophecy incorrectly too. She believes that Azor Ahai will remove a blade of fire and will wake stone dragons. In the case, this is a consecutive action (remove the sword of fire and waking dragons) or remove a fire sword is a metaphor for waking stone dragons? On the other hand, are two different prophecies?
Dany woke stone dragons. However, the winter had not arrived and as little the long night.
@47, But the cold breath of darkness hasn’t yet fallen. We’re getting closer, but Winter hasn’t Come yet.
@65, A LION have PRIDE? Surely, you jest.
@58: Agreed. “In the game of thrones, you win or you die” loses a little power, IMO, beside “All men must die.” Playing the game badly could get you declared a traitor and very publically executed, but you can play it well and still die in a truly ignoble manner, like Tywin.
I am quite tired of people calling characters such as Ned, Sansa, Dany, Catelyn, etc dumb. Certainly they make mistakes, but let us not blow those them out of proportion. Our judgement may be biased because we 1) know much more information from other POVs, 2) know how things will turn out (if it is a reread), 3) even on a first read we can often foresee things happening because of foreshadowing or by recognizing narrative tropes. But the characters don’t have this information, and if we consider the information they have their decisions make much more sense.
Speaking of Ned, first of all lets not forget that it wasn’t Cercei who outplayed him, it was Littlefinger. Tyrion also lost to LF, and would have ended up dead too, the only difference is that Varys decided that it was in his interest to save Tyrion, but not Ned.
And of course Ned knew perfectly well that his situation is dangerous, which is why he sent his daughters away on a ship. He also recognized that the key to a succesfull coup is securing City Watch support, who outnumber both Stark and Lannistrer guards. And surely he knew that there is some risk in trusting Littlefinger – there are a lot of suspisions in his POV, he just had no way of knowing it for sure.
He knew he was risking, and he took that risk knowingly, because he didn’t want innocent Tommen and Myrcella to die. Of course if he knew for a certainty that LF (i.e. a guy whom his own wife called a brother) is a traitor, of that Sansa & Arya will be stuck in Kings Landing because Sansa will go tell about their departure to Cercei, he wouldn’t have done that. But he couldn’t know about that, so taking that risk had a lot more sense then it seems to readers who could guess that LF is a traitor because they are trained to recognise narrative tropes.
Even the most shocking Ned’s decisions, like that meeting with Cercei in the godswood don’t seem that stupid if you consider what information Ned has at this point. Basicly he doesn’t have any firm evidence to accuse Cercei – he knows that Cercei’s children don’t look like Robert, while his bastards do, he also knows someone tried to assasinate Bran, perhaps because he saw something while climbing. That is all. He then connects the dots (which is actually an impressive intellectual feat by itself – most readers don’t, even having witnessed the incest from Bran’s POV), but that is no solid proof, so he confronts Cercei and gets a confession from her. Makes a lot of sense to me. (BTW, Robert’s assasination was probably planned before that conversation took place.)
Overall Ned is a quite intelligent guy IMO. He was an able military commander, his treatment of his children (Arya’s sword lessons) speak of openmindness (and it requires intelligence to overcome cultural prejudices), he handles the investigation quite well and discovers Cercei’s secret much sooner then Jon Arryn or Stannis, and his overall thoughts in his POV chapters are very perceptive (an example of a POV character who truly isn’t very smart is Victarion, just compare his POV’s and Ned’s). Ned was of course outclassed by the master schemers of King’s Landing court, but so what? They were refining their skills for intrigues for decades.
I think both opinions that “honor killed Ned” or “stupidity killed Ned” are superficial. The real situation was more complex, and the heart of the arc is the question of whether it is worth it to risk the fate of the kingdom to save an innocent child’s life (Myrcella & Tommen), which doesn’t have an easy answer.
Nice summary in 71.
Melisandre reminds me of three characters from the Wheel of Time: Elaida, Pedron Niall, and Moiraine. She’s like Elaida in magic, prophecy red color scheme, and black-and-white worldview, like Niall in fanaticism and methods, and like Moiraine in being a sorceress on the good guy’s side looking for a Chosen One.
My biggest problem with Dany is that she committed herself and her people to a war, but now is unwilling to prosecute that war, leading to suffering and death on a grand scale. If she’d just fight the war, then, despite some short-term death and destruction, she could prevent all many of future suffering while also furthering her long-term goals, including building an army capable of invading Westeros.
Everyone should remember this Melisandre chapter in the future. As mentioned before, only the House of the Undying (in A Clash of Kings) had more prophetic and foreshadowing moments.
Those visions paint a picture, but it’s still too blurry to be certain of anything at this point. For instance, we know that Melisandre can misinterpret them, but why is Rh’llor showing them in the first place? Of all deities in this story, the Red God is the only one whose power is so evident. I don’t remember any display of power from the Seven. The Drowned God isn’t very influential either. The Old Gods are a little more active in the North, but mostly through the greenseers. It’s hard to compete with resurrection and prophetic visions.
Melisandre seems to be trying to seduce Jon Snow towards her faith. I just don’t understand why this is so important to her, that she’s willing to stay by his side instead of Stannis. From certain passages, we can tell she wants Jon to trust her advice. But Stannis already follows her. Why bother with Jon Snow?
I wonder if the conflict for Jon’s faith will come down to Melisandre vs. Bran Stark in the end. I still don’t know why this is important, but I do remember a quote from Maester Aemon – I believe it was right before his death in that ship with Sam (in A Feast for Crows); he said “Fire consumes, but cold preserves.”
I don’t have much to say about the Dany chapter. Honestly, the whole Mereen situation always felt like GRRM was stalling. He needed to bring all characters where they need to be, but Dany had to pay the price. She had to fail. We can only hope she learns something from this.
I enjoyed reading the “honor in a crapsack world” debate, but I won’t make this post any longer than it already is.
@58 “If everybody dies, what matters is how you lived.” I love this quote.
@64 I like your analysis of the Lannisters.
@71 Nice defense of Ned’s actions.
The Ghost of High Heart foretold a whole lotta things in rapid succession, though I don’t remember if we already knew about some of them, but they were divided between two chapters.
@76: The only one of her cryptic visions that was about something that we knew about was Renly’s death (“a shadow butchering a golden stag”), but it still contained info not known to most people in Westeros, as circumstances of Renly’s death were not known outside of a few people. In the second chapter she appears in, she tells the BwB a couple of things that had already happened, but openly, not cryptically, one that was news to the readers and other characters as well – that Balon Greyjoy was dead (she had previously had a vision of his death, so presumably Balon died between those two chapters, and Ghost of High Heart can sense when something has happened), which was confirmed a little later in Cat’s chapter when they got news from the Iron Islands through the captain who had spent a year there (there was no way for GOHH to hear that news, of course). She also mentions something we already knew: “And Hoster Tully is dead, but you already knew that”. In those two chapters, she also predicted the Red Wedding, Cat’s resurrection, Joffrey’s death, the Mountain taking Harrenhal from Vargo Hoat and killing him… and something Sansa-related that may not have already come to pass. Plus, she sensed something terrible about Arya and her future.
In terms of prophecies, Ghost of the High Heart >>>> Melisandre. Patchface also has better foreshadowing than Mel, it’s just that no one ever understands what he’s singing about, though it’s obvious in retrospect. Maggy the Frog, Quaithe… where do they stand compared to Mel? Not sure. But at least she seems to have more interesting and richer visions than Thoros (all we know he saw was Riverrun under fire… now that was not hard to predict anyway), though obviously he far outdoes her in resurrection powers! (Well, she’s better at birthing shadowbabies… but I doubt Thoros ever tried that…)
@64,
Tywin was a lord. A lord does not love his children like regular people do. Ned brought Bran to see an execution and he was annoyed that his 3 years old son was afraid of a direwolf. He married Sansa to a prince that neither he nor his daughter know much about and he intended to marry Arya to a lord. He sent his bastard (maybe) to the wall and he left his recently cripled son for a job. Yet he would have won the Westeros father of the year award.
Ironically, it was lucky for Tyrion for his father to be a lord, because otherwise he would have been left in snow to die. Tywin seldomly smiled, but he smiled when he married Jonna and when Jamie and Cersei were born. Both Kevan and Genna loved him even if they don’t approve everything he did. Unfortunately, both Cersei and Jaime were self-centered and ungrateful, which tends to be the case for star children. Although both of them clearly admire their father. Do farmer’s daughters had any say in who she would marry? Somehow I highly doubt it. Tywin loved his family, just in his own ways,
which is actually quite normal for Westeros.
And LOL about the Queen Regent part. To quote the late Tywin Lannister, “You really think a crown give you power?” :)
@65: “Ironically, it was lucky for Tyrion for his father to be a lord, because otherwise he would have been left in snow to die.”
No, he wouldn’t. That’s BS that Tywin told him. There are lots of dwarfs in Westeros and Essos (ask Cersei, she was responsible for many of them losing their heads), obviously they were not left in the snow or desert to die. They may be performing circus tricks and such to make a living, but at least some of them had a loving family rather than a highly abusive father and elder sister. I would say more, but we’re getting into spoiler territory. And I’m willing to bet none of their fathers had their beloved spouse gang raped in front of them and forced them to participate, after lying to them and ruining their chance for happiness.
“Tywin loved his family, just in his own ways,
which is actually quite normal for Westeros.”
LOL
Tywin shares the Father of the Year award with Craster and Randyll Tarly.
@78: The crown gave Joffrey power to behead Ned Stark in spite of everyone else’s plans. So, yeah… it does, in fact.
“Power resides where men believe it resides”. Everyone believed Tywin had the power, and that’s why he had it, not just his name and position, but his fearsome reputation and the image and aura of power he projected. Cersei couldn’t get out of the mindset of a little girl who has to do what her father tells her to. What if she had said: “No. I don’t have to do as you say. I won’t marry. So, what are you going to do about it?” Resign as Hand? Withdraw his military and financial support for the king, his grandson? Give up the power and status he wanted, just because Cersei didn’t want to remarry? I don’t think so.
And look! Jamie said no to Tywin… and what happened? What did Tywin do? Nothing.
@71 A very refreshing read as opposed to the “Ned is sooo stoopid” comments. Thanks for that!
When you read that last Arya chapter in Game of Thrones again you’ll see that it was eventually all Joffrey that got Ned’s head chopped off. Joffrey’s childish decision not to honor the deal and not have Ned send to the Wall had nothing to do with Ned’s honor, or with his “stupidity”, or with Cercei, or Littlefinger, or Ned’s softheartedness, or whatever circumstances that led him to the steps of the Great Sept at that moment. It was just Joffrey’s childish “look at me, I’m the king, I can do whatever I want” abuse of power. Nothing else.
@81 There is a popular theory (that I think is true) that LF had somehow influenced Joffrey to execute Ned. Varys seems to be hinting at this in his conversation with Tyrion about the nature of power:
“Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor’s Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or … another?”
Littlefinger does have some influence on Joffrey somehow. In ASOS he gave Joffrey the idea to bring the dwarf jousters to mock Tyrion for example. And, of course, he has a very good personal motive.
But you still make a very good point, since there was no way Ned could foresee himself being executed, whether or not the above is true – executing a noble of such rank is some Aerys II level of insanity, one that got led Targ dynasty to its doom.
That moment when monarch refuses all the smart choices available in that situation: noble prisoners or Field of Fire 2.0, or even open combat
How come your sorcery helps you have no need for food, but can’t help with sleep?
If R’hllor exists he must be getting very frustrated with his priestess. Seriously, Girl, what’s a god gotta do to show you you’re totally on the wrong track in IDing his Chosen Champion?
One the subject of honor is anyone else here familiar with the difference between external honor and internal honor?