Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 21 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 35 (“Jon”) and Chapter 36 (“Daenerys”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 35: Jon
What Happens
Jon decides it is time to take six new recruits to the godswood beyond the Wall to be inducted, and that he will lead the party himself, ignoring the protests from Edd and Bowen Marsh. He reminds them that unlike the others, he has Ghost. He contemplates the recruits as they ride out, in particular Leathers and Jax, the only two of the wildlings from Mole Town so far to decide to take the black.
He and Iron Emmett discuss the female wildlings as they ride; Jon strongly disapproves of the brothers’ renaming of the women’s lodgings to “Harlot’s Tower,” but knows that they will be a problem; already three brothers are in prison for attempting to molest them. He tells Emmett that he intends to open three more castles, and staff one of them entirely with women, except for the commander and chief steward, who he intends to be Dolorous Edd and Emmett himself. Emmett looks both delighted and horrified at the news. Jon wants to get the Thenns off to one of the new forts as well before they escalate beyond minor violence, but he only has so many builders to go around.
Tom Barleycorn reports that there are nine wildlings, including a giant, taking shelter in the weirwood. Jon and his men approach cautiously, ready to fight, but two of the wildlings are already dead, and the rest sick or dying and offer no resistance. The exception is the giant, who threatens them, but then Leathers speaks to him in the Old Tongue, telling him the old gods were their gods too and they were there to pray, and the giant stands down. Jon tells them the rumors that the crows were burning all the wildling refugees were false, and offers them shelter at Castle Black.
The ritual vows go without incident, and the wildlings come with them back to Castle Black. Jon insists on bringing the corpses of the two who died as well, and instructs they be put in the ice cells. He tells Leathers to see to the giant’s welfare and keep the others from harassing him. He finds a letter for Stannis waiting for him, which tells him that Stannis has gained the alliance of all the mountain clans, and taken Deepwood Motte with the help of Alysane Mormont. He reports that his host has grown to five thousand strong, and that he is marching to Winterfell to stop Roose Bolton from taking the keep. He promises to rescue Arya Stark if he can, and find her a “better match” than Ramsay Snow.
Jon is not sure how he feels about a battle for Winterfell where no Starks are involved, and worries that Stannis’s conservative methods as a commander will hinder him against the Boltons. He wonders if Roose ever really had Arya, or if it was a trap to lure Stannis in. He is even less sure about his decision to send Mance Rayder off with some spearwives to rescue Arya on the strength of Melisandre’s vision.
When Jon had been a boy at Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the boy king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those.
Commentary
Hmm. Yet another oddly uneventful Jon chapter. I don’t know why it’s solely Jon’s storyline that appears to be stalling in this book, but I suspect it’s to let Jon be an inadvertent infodump site for Sirs Otherwise Not Appearing In This Book.
Like Stannis, for instance. Okay, sure, technically he’s appeared in this book, but if I recall correctly it was only for like a hot second, and he’s been strictly background since then.
Which isn’t to say he doesn’t seem to be doing surprisingly well while off-screen, but I am taking no bets until he’s met up with Psychopaths Senior and Junior and I’ve seen the outcome. I would, obviously, be completely delighted if it turns out that Stannis kicks their asses into next Spring, but I am not convinced that he can, and Jon’s musings on Stannis’s drawbacks as a commander don’t help much.
So, well, good luck, Stanny boy. You’ll need it.
And we had other help, unexpected but most welcome, from a daughter of Bear Island. Alysane Mormont, whose men name her the She-Bear, hid fighters inside a gaggle of fishing sloops and took the ironmen unawares where they lay off the strand. Greyjoy’s longships are burned or taken, her crews slain or surrendered.
Haha, awesome. If only Jorah were more like the rest of his clan, eh? I’m not sure we’ve ever even met any of the Mormont women outside of hearsay and background, but I heart them all regardless, for being the “exception” that proves the rule is stupid.
Speaking of warrior women, I was also surprised, and greatly pleased, by Jon’s idea to give them an entire castle to themselves to defend. Jon’s biggest problem at the moment, after all, is his lack of warm bodies (pun definitely intended, ba-dum-dum), so as an example of both startlingly progressive thinking (especially in this society) and out-of-the-box problem-solving, it’s positively stellar. You go, Jon Snow!
Granted, “stellar” maybe is not what I’m used to saying about segregational practices, but in this context it probably really is for the best, especially at first. In a hypothetical future in which the spearwives hopefully get a chance to prove that they can be warriors when the occasion demands it, the inherent prejudice against the idea could fade to the point that integrated forces are possible. Small steps.
What does Jon want dead wildlings for? I racked my brains over this one, but I got nothing.
Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens, like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter.
Jon’s thoughts on greenhouses was weirdly startling to me, because it’s such an obvious solution to the problem of having a decades-long winter season, and yet I never once thought of it. But then, to say I am not agriculturally inclined is the understatement of the decade (I once managed to kill a jade plant, which my mother swore shouldn’t even be possible without using actual poison), so maybe that’s not all that surprising.
More surprising is that no one in the story besides the folks at Winterfell seems to have thought of it either, at least not that I can recall. Although I guess that’s partially explained by Jon’s thoughts on the expense of good glass, but still, the expense there is all in the initial outlay; once you’ve got the equipment and the trained personnel to make it, glass is just sand, right? Or maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about there either. (I probably don’t.)
Random thought: I wonder if Bran greensaw what went down in the grove? I dunno, I think he can only see what’s happening in Winterfell’s weirwood so far, but I’m not entirely sure whether Jon and Bran’s storylines are matched up chronologically or not. So, dunno, maybe he’s expanded his repertoire since then.
And last:
[Edd:] “He’s going with you?”
[Jon:] “He is.”
“A clever wolf, him. And me?”
“You’re not.”
“A clever lord, you.”
Ha! Oh, Dolorous Edd. Keep on keepin’ on, dude.
Chapter 36: Daenerys
What Happens
Dany insists on personally escorting the latest shipment of food to the flux-riddled refugee camp outside the city walls, reminding a distraught Barristan that she is of the blood of the dragon and therefore immune to sickness. The camp is horrific, filled with the stench of disease and death, and with sick and starving refugees crying out piteously to her. Dany despairs of how to help them, and her people are growing more and more reluctant to even bring them food; Barristan reminds her that their stores dwindle, and may be needed to withstand a siege soon. Against his advice, she sends for Grey Worm and fifty Unsullied to gather and burn the corpses, and herself helps, shaming her entourage into doing the same.
She returns to her chambers and bathes. Missandei tells her she heard the Astapori refugees “scratching at the walls” in the night, and Dany assures her they will not get in. She meets with Reznak and Galazza to discuss the wedding preparations, and is incensed to learn that she is expected to wash Hizdahr’s feet as well as submit to a naked examination of her private parts by his mother and sisters, and declares she will not do it. Galazza claims that the union will not be recognized as legitimate otherwise. Reznak tries to convince her to reopen the fighting pits as well, and Dany snaps that Hizdahr can open them after he’s king, but she will take no part in it.
Hizdahr arrives later, though, and assures her he does not care about fulfilling “foolish old traditions.” He tells her that for peace, the Yunkai’i demand an indemnity in gold as well as resumption of the slave trade there and in Astapor, and also that she must wed Hizdahr with him crowned as king beside her. They are interrupted by Barristan, who tells Dany the Stormcrows have returned with news that the Yunkish are on the march, but that Lord Daario is refusing to make his report to anyone but Dany. She immediately begs off dinner with Hizdahr and goes to see Daario (after changing clothes).
She is dismayed to see Daario is wounded, though he claims the blood is from a traitorous serjeant whose heart he ripped out. (Ser Barristan is unimpressed.) Daario tells of the forces arraying against Meereen he had to fight his way through, though he says he gained more recruits than he lost, and then shocks everyone by telling them that Brown Ben Plumm and the Second Sons have gone over to the Yunkai’i. Dany is devastated, and wonders if this makes Ben her second betrayal or her third (depending on whether Jorah counts). She wonders if she will ever have a friend she can truly trust.
She orders silence, and then tells them to gather all the food they can and close the gates; no one is to enter or leave the city henceforth. Reznak asks, what about the Astapori, and Dany wants to scream, but repeats her order. She kicks everyone out but Daario, and takes him to her bedroom to tend his wounds. After, she sends her handmaids away, and Daario kisses her. She tells him she thought he would be the one to betray her, but it was Ben, and begs him to promise never to turn against her.
“Never, my love.”
She believed him. “I swore that I should wed Hizdahr zo Loraq if he gave me ninety days of peace, but now… I wanted you from the first time that I saw you, but you were a sellsword, fickle, treacherous. You boasted that you’d had a hundred women.”
“A hundred?” Daario chuckled through his purple beard. “I lied, sweet queen. It was a thousand. But never once a dragon.”
She raised her lips to his. “What are you waiting for?”
Commentary
Aw, man, really?
You’re really gonna get it on with Daario, Dany? Really? Him? With King Douche of Douchetania? Really? REALLY?
*headdesk x1000*
Ugh.
I am so unbelievably annoyed by this, I can’t even tell you.
FAIL, Dany. So much fail. You are Queen Fail of Failistan! I hope you and King Douche are very happy together in your combined lands of Faildouchetanstania!
Except you’re not gonna be happy, because this is terrible and is going to end so badly, and why does NO ONE LISTEN TO ME, ARGH.
Of course, if Dany and her entire court dies of dysentery before anyone finds out she’s boning Toolface McDouchespray over there, I guess it’ll be a moot point. THIS IS WHAT’S QUALIFYING AS A BRIGHT SIDE, YOU GUYS.
Sheesh.
But really, so much fail in this chapter. I admire Dany’s nurturing instincts in the abstract, but not to the extent of more or less literally getting down and rolling around in deadly disease vectors, because that is fucking stupid, Dany, what is wrong with you. You can feel sorry for the hell that these people are going through and even work to alleviate it without consigning yourself to go there with them! God!
*throws things*
Because, you know, even if Viserys was right that Targaryens are immune to dysentery (a piece of wisdom of highly dubious provenance, let’s just say), that’s not going to do you a lot of good if every one of your most trusted people, whom you may recall are not dragon-blooded, gets struck down with the disease instead.
COMMON SENSE, GIRL. It’s a thing, you should try it. Ideally before your entire city shits itself to death.
Lord today.
[Daario:] “One of my serjeants said we should go over to the Yunkai’i, so I reached down his throat and pulled his heart out. I meant to bring it to you as a gift for my silver queen, but four of the Cats cut me off and came snarling and spitting after me. One almost caught me, so I threw the heart into his face.”
“Very gallant,” said Ser Barristan, in a tone that suggested it was anything but.
HAHAHA awesome. Me and Ser Barristan were such soul twins in this chapter, you guys, because he is about 1000% done with Dany and Daario’s bullshit and I am so with him on that. I just hope it doesn’t cause him to break with her. I doubt it, because this is Ser Barristan we’re talking about, but every man has his breaking point. Dany’s lamentations that she has no one to trust were heartbreaking, but she seems to be missing that there’s one extremely trustworthy person right in front of her that she’s routinely ignoring.
Although, I’m casting a suspicious side-eye at Ben Plumm’s “betrayal” anyway. Even though I myself questioned the wisdom of Dany giving him a pile of gold to go running off with (at least I think that was Plumm), it occurs to me that there’s no better way to foil your enemy’s plans than to install an inside man for the job. I’m just saying.
Speaking of inside jobs, ha ha:
“More turncloaks?”
“More brave men drawn to your noble cause. My queen will like them. One is an axeman from the Basilisk Isles, a brute, bigger than Belwas. You should see him. Some Westerosi too, a score or more. Deserters from the Windblown, unhappy with the Yunkai’i. They’ll make good Stormcrows.”
Well, look who’s here. Just in time for the shitshow! HA. HA. HA.
I confess to feeling a certain amount of evil glee that it was Daaaaaario who got hoodwinked into Trojan Horse-ing Quentyn and Co. into Meereen. Sucker! Tool! GIANT DOUCHE!
Please, pleeeease let Quentyn come and retrieve Dany from the terrible land of Faildouchetanstania. Or let Tyrion do it via dragon-snarling, whatever. Or even frickin’ Hizdahr with his oh-so-convenient kinging-contingent peace terms, look, I’m desperate here. Just IX-NAY ON THE OUCHE-DAY, PEOPLE. However it has to happen, just get it done. Pretty please with sprinkles.
Her cooks had promised her to serve the noble Hizdahr’s favorite meal, dog in honey, stuffed with prunes and peppers.
Ew. What is it with these people and dogs, I swear.
And on that delightful culinary note, we out! Have a lovely Memorial Day weekend if you are Americanly dispositioned, and a lovely late May weekend if you aren’t! Cheers!
The greenhouses in Winterfell had hot springs and glass roofs. The wall would have just the glass. Can that be enough?
This just in – teenage girls (and boys) have terrible judgement. And blue-haired leaders of punk rock mercenary bands get laid despite, or because of, how ridiculous they look.
If I’m not much mistaken, we’ve been directly exposed to two of the Mormont women. Maege, sister of Jeor (former LC of the Night’s Watch) who if I remember correctly is the reigning head of House Mormont, and her oldest daughter Dacey, who was killed at the Red Wedding. They were, indeed, badasses by both reputation and action.
Pretty much everybody (talking about readers, here, although the in-narrative crowd would probably agree, too) acknowledges that Daaaario is a yacht-sized douchecanoe, BUT… I, personally, tend to cast a somewhat tolerant eye upon Dany’s bad judgment in this instance on the grounds that she’s fifteen, horny, under a lot of pressure, and the heart wants what it wants, you know? (i.e. there really is no accounting for taste). And, after all, she is attempting to do the cold-eyed realpolitik thing by marrying someone she has no romantic feelings for, simply for political alliance/expediency.
Two Leigh errors here: First about the Mormont women (we have definitely been exposed to them on screen in previous books). And second about Stannis, who has appeared a lot more in this book up to this point than Leigh seems to think. Indeed, Stannis’ conquest of Deepwood Motte with the help of the mountain clans, described in his letter to Jon in this chapter, happened onscreen earlier in this book from Asha Greyjoy’s POV.
The Night’s Watch probably presents more problems for gender integration than most militaries, considering that its recruitment base draws heavily from convicted rapists
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA great read this week, thanks, Leigh. Multiple LOLs.
The Jon chapter was rather slow, as you pointed out, but at least we learned more about Stannis’ plans. The big problem I had was Jon sending away Dolorous Edd to help rule one of the castles. Jon’s chapters without Dolorous Edd will just be dull as hell.
Dany- I just don’t hate Daario as much as you do, Leigh, though your moniker for him is QUITE amusing. I think that in some ways, he helps bring out a side of Dany that she has been ignoring (I would call it her “Dragon” side). Dany has gotten bogged down in Meereen, and now is surrounded by enemies, betrayed by her supposed allies (i.e. Plumm), and overwhelmed with refugees carrying plague. She’s currently scheduled to marry a man who appears to be gaining his crown via her enemies’ work, if he isn’t secretly one of her enemies in the first place. Yet Daario is bloody, he’s a fighter. I think he might be what she needs, or at least she needs to embrace that side of her heritage, the side that she turned to when she got the Unsullied and started freeing Slavers Bay, but appears to have lost. I know a lot of people dislike Daario, and he’s not a nice guy, but I DO think that he has some things going for him.
Leigh, I’m afraid that it’s not just the Jon chapters that I feel drag. I am very tired of Dany spinning her wheels in the East and not much changing. And I’m totally with you on Daario.
Somewhat related: we don’t get HBO so I’d never seen the video version (I read and I like the Roy Dotrice audio reads). But I decided to quench my curiosity, so I went into a Target and bought the boxed DVDs of the first three seasons. At the checkout:
Clerk: “Are you a fan of the show?”
Me: “I’ve not seen them, but the books are great so I thought I’d take a look.”
Clerk: “Oh, are they books too?”
(me struggling not to say something sarcastic.)
Now, having watched most if Season 1 (i.e., the AGOT book) I’m wondering how anyone who has not read the books would be quickly hooked. So much background is missing! And the casting is interesting: some characters are great, but a thin Ilyrio Mopatis?
It is a little funny the Dany situation. You have the Green Grace and the Meereen and Yunkish factions looking to have her fulfill the traditional and expected role of a woman ruler, get married, and the one that wants her to be a powerful ruler in her own right is a complete jackass of a character. Even Quentyn, who is a reasonably decent guy, is coming to her in the interest of his father Doran so that they can use her as a casus belli… which would require that she act more as a subservient role rather than an agent that takes her own initiative.
And don’t forget about 10 year old Lyanna Mormont, who wrote the awesome letter to Stannis denying fealty. With the She Bear going after the Ironborn and Mother Maege and the other living daughter in the South, now we know why Lyanna was the remaining Mormont on Bear Island to answer the letter. Note, by the way, that Jorah is made of awesome too – he just had to had the bad luck to fall for an Oldtown girl with expensive tastes who bankrupted him and forced him to do things contrary to honor. And he still gave the family sword back to his Dad.
I love all the Jon chapters in this book. Not slow at all. Rather, he is making revolutionary changes at rapid pace while his brothers are staring at him in shock. Hours of unmitigated entertainment.
And …oh, Dany….
Love your gift for naming in this one. What a mess all around. I actually don’t mind her having a fling with Daario here. He’s putting himself on the line to help her, and she is not excited about her upcoming political marriage. Best to make some hay before responsibilities intrude.
It is amazing how hard Galazza and others are pushing Dany to give in to Meereenese traditions. They don’t seem to want to bend, not even an inch.
@1 In this world glass is not enough for full blown winter. In Planetos, though, perhaps. GRRM seems to have a loose grasp of the physical world (e.g., distances and measures.)
Jon’s chapters are very eventful. Not very exciting, but full of events, like opening new towers along the Wall to prepare for the coming of the Whitewalkers, protecting Wildling women from the Brothers. Jon is remaking the Night’s Watch, and is the ONLY POV character in the entire series actually preparing for the true threat of these books.
And the Mormont women were prominently featured in several Catelyn chapters.
And to be honest, I’m just happy Dany’s getting some consenting, coercionless BOOTAY right now, even if it is from Daario.
So glad you bring up the green house. Why doesn’t every single manor and the Wall in the North have one?! Why don’t they all have a glass blower along with a blacksmith at each stronghold? Ship the sand in the same way you ship in iron or for swords and horse shoes.
Yes, making sheet glass is very hard for the level of tech they have. Transporting it unbroken even harder. But smaller pieces of glass could be fitted to create the green house effect.
Hello people, how do you not all die of scurvy with no vegetables during your stupid long winters?
It was a statement that really bugged me upon a re-read.
Dany… Queen of bad choices currently.
Organ meats. I probably wouldn’t survive at the Wall. Others, wights, and wildlings I can handle, but not eating liver.
Good memory-catch on Deserters From The Windblown = Quentyn, Leigh!
Kudos.
I had heard that, as Feast and Dance were supposed to be one book, that Dany and Cersei, and Jon’s storylines were all supposed to reflect each other as to how they experienced ruling and how they dealt with the people around them, so that’s a theme that was lost. Jon has many of the same problems Dany has and they are dealing with the people around them somewhat differently.
Barristan is trustworthy, but also quite boring, so it’s no wonder the 16 or so year old Dany isn’t enthralled with him at this point.
Oh man, I laughed so hard at the Dany part.
I’m not a huge fan of Daaaaario but I can kind of see why for once Dany wants to actually choose who she is sleeping with. And of course the Mereenese Blot has some interesting things to say about the different sides of her personality this all represents.
RobM: I’m not sure I can buy that Jorah was FORCED into selling slaves.
Leigh – how could you forget the awesomeness of Maege and Dacey!
I both abhor Daario as a character while simultaneously completely understand why this 14-year-old girl would want to act on her baser instincts for once. The poor girl has to think and re-think and re-think again every action she makes. And now she’s entering into a marraige with someone she honestly doesn’t care for. It makes perfect sense for her to just go for it. I just wish IT wasn’t Daario -.-
And sorry, but Jorah with the Dany lookalike in the brothel ruins any tender affection I had for him as a character
@15 – Takes more than glass to make a greenhouse work. You need heat and sunlight – and glass is poor insulation. You have to keep the thing heated and clear of snow. And I’m not sure if days are real short in a Westeros winter.
In the Northeast, greenhouses are generally used in the late-winter / early spring to get a head start on planting season – not to produce vegetables in mid-winter.
@21 – Jorah seems like a real loser when it comes to relationships. It was his futile effort to keep his marriage going that led him to sell people into slavery. No record of a healthy romantic relationships in his past – just obsessions with women he can’t have or keep.
Interesting…I don’t remember the dynamics of that scene very well (if he was particularly rough with/abusive of the girl), but I just remember feeling it was kind of pathetic of him. Putting aside the issue of going to brothels and my personal feelings on that topic, I didn’t see the Dany lookalike aspect of it being any worse. Thinking about it, there’s a kind of creepy aspect of trying to ‘replace’ her and just being totally hung up on her (and doesn’t she also look like his ex-wife?)…it wasn’t really a ‘moral’ failing to me like being a slaver is.
I already feel like going to a brothel is objectifying women in the first place, but if you’re going to do that, I don’t see how picking a person that looks like somebody you have feelings for makes it too much worse (or that much worse than requesting, say, a buxom redhead because you like buxom redheads. It’s all about ‘ordering’ up women)…I found it a little pitiable, actually, and maybe a sign of some instability/inability to let things go.
Don’t get me wrong, I found Jorah’s relationship with Dany a tad creepy in the first place. He was never a character I had a whole lot of affection for in the first place (although I can’t say he is that high on my shit list either. I’m kind of ambivalent about him, unless I think too hard about the slaving thing).
ETA: I can see an issue, maybe, with the fact that it’s basically a fake-Dany who is a pale imitation of what Dany really is (a ruler) and just focusing on one aspect (sex) – but again, I have that issue with brothels in general anyway. For a stranger that would definitely be the case (woo, hot dragon queen!), but since for Jorah, his relationship with her was more personal…I don’t know if that makes it more or less understandable, since he’s basically just trying to drown his sorrows and least pretend he has some sliver of a relationship and it’s the (supposed) romantic relationship he’s mourning.
@facultyguy: Welcome to the club of show watchers who have read the books! It’s a hoot. Now start plowing through Theresa’s reviews of the shows on this site (sorry .. didn’t grab a url before I started typing) and join in the cheerful playful banter in the comments! : )
Thanks, Leigh. Truly entertaining read. Lord Commander Jon Snow has grown considerably from the sensitive boy who left Winterfell for the Wall back in Game of Thrones. He is thinking more globally and long-term. He brought home a handful of wildlings, 2 corpses, and a giant without blinking an eye.
But the real jaw dropper for me was this:
“Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. <snip> What we need is gold. With enough coin, we could buy ‘prentice glassblowers and glaziers in Myr, bring them north, offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits. ”
Eh, hem. So, we are reminded by the appearance of Alysane Mormont in this chapter that Jorah Mormont fled Westeros to avoid being beheaded by Lord Eddard for dealing in slaves. Dany has been riding around Slavers Bay, freeing humans from the tyranny of slavery by the gazillions. And…Jon Snow just considered buying slaves as a logical, pragmatic solution to a problem.
Now, granted, he would be give the slaves their freedom after they teach their skills to the Night’s Watch. But daring to even consider the purchase of slaves is a staggering worldview shift for Jon Snow, son of Winterfell. He is demonstrating truly innovative ideas – integrate the wildlings, create a Women Warriors tower, purchase slave apprentices short-term, build sustainable gardens…fascinating.
@26 –
For that matter, I wonder whether anyone ever thought of buying Unsullied to man the Wall. Granted, that’s not a practical solution now, but they aren’t likely to know that at the Wall. It seems the type of desperate measure that would at least be considered.
Oh my God, Leigh, thanks for putting a huge smile on my face and making me feel good about a Tor post about GoT/ASOIAF. You don’t need to read into that, but others on here will probably know what I’m talking about. Anyway, I’m glad to see we’re on totally the same page regarding Daario.
I guess you’ll just have to wait and SEE what Jon wants with those dead bodies! I was actually just thinking about this yesterday, but can’t say anything, because spoilers.
@26, This isn’t the first time Westerosi bought slaves to free them, isn’t that where Butterbumps came from, a Volantene minstral slave the Baratheons bought to free?
@23, I guess for me, up until that point, I never really read Jorah as attracted to her sexually, just more in a big brotherly type way.
Ahhh :) I’d already assumed that so I guess my opinion was already influenced by that in the first place.
@24: I guess the question with the Dany look-a-like is whether Sisko going into the Mirror Universe and sleeping with Alternate Dax and Alternate Kira worse than if he had sleep with two Mirror Universe women that he didn’t know from his own universe. So in a similar vein, is it worse that he was with a prostitute that looked like Dany vs. just any other? Although it could be he has a preference for a certain type of woman, and that it’s not specifically because of Dany, as you say, but we’re not sure that’s the case.
@29: It seemed pretty clear to me that his feelings were NOT big brother for her. Didn’t he try to kiss her in one of the earlier books? And there was that whole backstory about how she looked exactly like his ex-wife that he was all hung up over.
@16: Organ meat… I’d die too.
@26: Guess I need to read up on Myr a little more. I read that more as buying the contract on apprentices as a type of indentured servants. Which in some parts of history was not much different than slavery. But it could take an apprentice 10+ years to earn their freedom to become a master crafter. Jon would offer them a fast track to their freedom.
I don’t understand the outrage about Dany shagging Daario. So, he’s not likable. He’s kind of annoying and he looks kind of silly. And he has some douchy ideas. So what?
Dany is not listening to his more extreme violent ideas. She is not giving Daario any political power or influence he doesn’t already have as her sellsword captain. She is not hurting anyone, and it’s not really hurting her standing as a queen, either. Of her decisions in this book, this one is one of the least problematic. I’m far more worried about her marrying Hizdahr (who is very likely to be involved with the leaders of the Sons of the Harpy, if he’s not one of them) and compromising with the slavers so much.
This is one of the few instances of consensual, non-transactional, non-duty sex in the books where sex, if it’s not rape, tends to either be prostitution, or “marriage duty”, with no desire, certainly not on both sides. And finally Dany gets to have sex with someone she chose, because she is attracted to him and wants sex with him. I say, go Dany!
@29: Patchface. Butterbumps is the fool of the Tyrells.
@32: Not just tried, he gave her a big, passionate kiss that she was aroused by even though she is not attracted to him as him. And then he proposed to her, offering to be one of her husbands/dragon riders (that’s one hell of an assumption, LOL). She also had been noticing since ACOK the way he kept looking at her – in Qarth, she noticed the way he reacted to her exposed breast, and the contrast between his reaction and the lack of reaction from Xaro Xhoan Daxos.
@31 – Oh, I think this is a bit different, because the MU versions are for all intents and purposes, identical, and treated as ultimately the same person but in a different life, where as the prostitute is a woman who look like Dany but not really Dany. I mean, yeah, it’s creepy and sad, but I don’t think on that same level.
Maybe a better comparison is creating holdeck versions of a person to sleep with (*ahem*, Barclay) but even that I find more creepy because it’s very obviously meant to be the exact same person whose behavior you get to program and control.
So, maybe if Jorah is expecting some actual roleplay and really getting into it and making the person ‘act’ like the real Dany but by doing things the real Dany wouldn’t want to do, then that’s just a lot more gross But, I don’t know if it was that, or if he was just drawn to somebody that reminded him of her and trying to take refuge in some self delusion for a bit.
I think I’m done talking about this, because its’ kind of depressing.
@22 – we still don’t know what the cosmology of Planetos is (assuming it’s not carried on the back of a giant turtle), but I always thought of the Wall as being roughly along the arctic circle, meaning they might not get any sunlight for months/years at a time.
This week’s double feature: Why Righteous Ruling Sucks, tropical and polar editions!
I found this Dany chapter one of the most depressing in all of ASOIAF. Not because of Daario, who I find unattractive but no less repulsive than the other guys she’s currently amid. Because of the people dying en masse before her eyes due to her actions in Astaphor, and her acceptance of the fighting pits reopening and the resumption of slavery outside Meereen, and Brown Ben’s betrayal, and…ugh.
It is amusing that she thought she could trust him because “the dragons had liked him.” Hello, Drogon killed a four-year-old girl who was probably quite innocent. Don’t judge people by the way your dragons treat them.
No comment on the Meereenese prenuptial customs?
The giant kept stopping to knock snow off of branches. That’s my favorite outdoor winter activity (no, really), so I like to think he also does it for fun.
Jon? If you care about someone, don’t hope their death will be “long in coming.” Just on general principle. George R. R. Martin has cruel ways of obliging such wishes.
“Arya was just a little girl, and Roose Bolton wouldn’t be careless with such a prize.” HAHAHA. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
@16: Mm, organ meats. I don’t like liver either, but am very fond of beef tongue and poultry gizzard. Unfortunately, there’s a lot more vitamin C in liver. Some Westerosi know that citrus prevents scurvy, and Jon notes that the NW is out of it when taking inventory in an earlier chapter.
I don’t have a high opinion of Daario myself. But let’s not Forget Dany’s past. I would not describe her relationship with Khal Drogo as healthy, especially if you consider how it began. But it was obvious that she was in love with him when he died. Now, Daario cannot compete with Drogo. But I think it is save to say, that Dany is able to ignore how men she is attracted to behave towards other people if she thinks their affection for her is genuine. Both of them are brutal and violent and while she is not Dany is not put off by that.
Regarding the issue of the all-spearwife garrison, and Leigh’s concerns about gender segregation, that’s historically speaking, the only real way to include women (or more than one homosexual soldier) in a military force. Keep them separate to minimize the opportunities for sexual or romantic interaction. Sex and love are the banes of discipline and morale as well the Night’s Watch knows, and as they lectured Jon about in the very first book, and as we see proven with Arys Oakheart being compromised by Arianne Martell into endangering his charge. Even with the wildlings, we saw Ygritte’s judgment suborned to her sexual attraction and subsequent romantic relationship with a traitor in her unit, who was accepted and tolerated, even in the face of other parties’ suspicions, because of her relationship with him.
Fooling around with coworkers is bad for the work environment in any setting, and the reason why so many companies have policies regarding dealing with it. All the problems in an ordinary workplace would be exacerbated tenfold when the task you are performing together have life and death consequences, and when the fate of nations can rest on the group’s performance. Think it causes a problem when the boss’ girlfriend is perceived to get first choice of vacation days, or is allowed to come in five minutes late all that time? Imagine how the fellow soldiers are going to grumble when she (or he) is never assigned to night sentry duty or asked to take point on a patrol. Or when two units are calling for reinforcements, and the commander sends them to the one which has his girlfriend in it? Or sends them to the other unit, instead of his lover’s. Regardless of the military justifications, someone is going to be unhappy with the decision and criticize it as romantically motivated, whether to protect a loved on, or rid himself of a romantic complication.
It was enough of a problem for Jon to deal with his old buddies and peers after he became Lord Commander that he transferred them, and spit them up to different units, so if he sent all four to the Shadow Tower or to Eastwatch, he’d never have to think about which one had all his old friends, when he was weighing one against the other in administrative or even command matters (Also, by sending them to the other castles, it helps him think of their garrisons as being as much his brothers as the men of Castle Black with whom he is more familiar).
Jon recalls being taught by Ned not to get too close to his men, and physical or emotional intimacy would definitely count in there. And it isn’t simply up and down the chain of command, but throughout the ranks. The sight of a loved one in danger is going to motivate men or women to act in ways they would not for a comrade with whom they had a different relationship. And yes, there are already chances of things like that happening (we even see in the books incidents that would seem to indicate soldiers motivated by friendship or other things in common), they are not good, and eliminating a major vector of compromised discipline would be only common sense. Looting or cowardice happen even in good armies, and during successful engagements. People get away with or survive riding in a speeding car without a seatbelt all the time. It does not make it a prudent practice.
I finding it a bit odd that someone who expressed skepticism about the viability of oaths of celibacy, and satisfaction over seeing that minor violations of the same are winked at, would be opposed to gender segregation. If it is unrealistic to expect this exact same group to refrain from sex, why would you think it would be possible to mix women in with them at arms reach, without any disruptive hanky-panky? Even setting aside the question of harassment or rape.
We know that not all Targs are immune to all diseases, since three of them died in the Great Spring Sickness of Dunk & Egg’s time. But Dany was apparently never told about that, and as far as she remembers, neither she nor Viserys have ever gotten sick. Lucky them (hah).
@34, Thank you I knew I didn’t have the name right
Yes, Brown Ben Plumm was the one who she allowed to go off “recruiting” with a lot of loot, which you side-eyed at the time too. I like Strong Belwas’s promise to “eat his heart with plums and onions.”
“What good are prophesies if you can’t make sense of them?” HAHA. Prophesies never make sense, Dany. Not before the foretold things happen, anyway. It’s probably a rule.
@AeronaGreenjoy: I only just now noticed that your name is Greenjoy, and not Greyjoy.
@Whitecloak in 40, with that reasoning, why set Emmett and Edd in command and not some women? Granted, there would be few candidates in the Watch, but surely he can find some capable spearwifes.
Ah, late to the party as usual. Story of my life.
@2, 4 – Youth & hormones, for the fail, every-time. *sigh*
@6 – Agreed. Jon’s got enough problems without trying to enforce modern-day integration standards on his not-very-reliable command.
@14, 18-20 – Daario? Really? Um, yeah, ok.
@26 – My question is if apprentices are slaves or indentured servants in this milieu; if indentured, Jon would be buying out their contracts in exchange for their teaching services, not buying slaves.
@33 – Oops, I see you got here first about #26; my bad.
@39 – I just find it interesting how when Jonah acts on his (admittedly creepy) fantasies about Dany, he gets slapped down for it; but when Dany acts on her (suborned and twisted) ideas of consensual relations, she is excused (and somewhat lauded) for it.
@40 – Then what might your thoughts be about say, the US Army allowing women in Ranger School?
@45 – I think Jon is putting Nightswatch Brother’s in command of every fort and not just outsourcing the Wall to Wildlings. He would be crazy to do otherwise.
@46 – Saw lots of “disruptive hanky-panky” in my time in the military. As you say, youth & hormones, for the fail, every-time.
Putting women through Infantry schools is also an excellent way to get them seriously injured.
It is possible to heat a greenhouse without fire or electric heaters. (Yes, the greenhouse effect is somewhat badly named.) Decomposing vegetable matter produces heat. And I’m not talking about letting your cucumbers decompose, but all the rest of the organic matter that decomposes and turns into compost.
Yeah, that’s a two for one. The stalks and other inedible portions of the plant will heat the greenhouse as they decompose, and then strengthen the soil as compost when they’re done decomposing.
Here’s an initial link, but it’s probably more complicated if you actually want to do it: http://www.ehow.com/way_6470455_heat-greenhouse-compost.html.
(Just added my first link on this site.)
Agriculture in the North doesn’t make sense. We are told that Winterfell has snow in summer frequently (and it is actually snowing often in AGOT). That kind of climate is definitely too cold to grow any kind of crops. Even forests are problematic: perhaps coniferous trees can still grow that far north, but not oaks (that are mentioned a lot). And The Wall is much further north then Winterfell, yet we are told there were farmers living at the Gift. So i think we just have to assume that Westeros plants and animals have really different metabolisms then the ones from Earth.
@49, IMO, Summer Snows are actually a part of the typical rotation of the seasons that the imbalance of fire magic and ice magic has thrown out of whack
@46: What are Dany’s “twisted ideas of consensual relations”?
@51 that it is, in any way, shape or form, acceptable to consent to having sex with Daaaaario. : )
I don’t see a problem with Dany having sex with Daario per se, unless she starts to listen to his advice as a result (which didn’t happen so far). The problem is that if everyone learns of their relationship, it might threaten the marriage with Hizdar and thus the whole peace deal with the harpies. Whether or not making peace with them is a good idea or not is another question, but Dany seems to have chosen to go that way, so starting that affair with Daario is not very wise.
Jon’s chapters are better once you finish the book. Many things happen, but they mostly happen off focus. Or Jon himself doesn’t realise what’s happening, so GRRM is dropping clues for us readers. I can’t admit I saw all (or any) of them at first, but later on they seem obvious.
Dany’s choices are never very popular, but at least she can make them. Freedom is a precious thing in this story. She’s going to be trapped in a loveless marriage for who knows how long, so if she can get it on with someone who actually does something for her, why not? The fact that she’s attracted to Daario in the first place is the problem, I suppose. But aside from Daario, who else is there? Funny commentary, though. You should headdesk more often.
The Jorah/Dany dynamic is muddled a bit for me, because in the TV show Jorah looks way better and Dany’s older. But in the books, that pair doesn’t make much sense. It’s confusing.
@3 Yeah, I think Maege is one of the people in charge of Robb’s will. And Dacey danced with Robb at the Red Wedding. I remember she tried to dance with a Frey and was rebuffed. It’s odd, but when they all died I felt worse about Dacey. She seemed so happy.
@8 I only started reading the books after I finished watching the first season on HBO. The books are way better, but the show has its own strength too. It’s the same story told by different people. GRRM is the creator, but who knows when he’ll finish it? I’m just glad to have some closure.
@40 Interesting comment. I don’t interpret GRRM’s “love is the bane of honor” as ultimate truth. He shows love as the downfall of some characters, but also as salvation of others. Just as Ygritte was doomed by Jon, he was saved by her. Besides, trying to live without love is why both the Night’s Watch and the Kingsguard are failed institutions. No one in their right mind would willingly sacrifice everything to serve in either of them. I agree about the real world issues, but it’s hard to compare.
My dislike of Dany going after Daario is not a condemnation of Dany. Rather, it’s me being put into her head/shoes as the POV character, imagining myself in her place, and personally being repulsed by Daario, myself. :-) I was 15, I know how it is, and I’m also fairly repulsed when I put myself into my 15-year-old head/shoes and ponder some of that inappropriateness.
@44: I’m Aeron Greyjoy’s gloomily ocean-obsessed soul twin from the “green lands.”
@45 – I think Jon doesn’t have much choice here. This isn’t the time to give the Wildlings a section of wall without some oversight, and he can’t be everywhere.
@47 – Putting ANY recruit thru any of the advanced schools if they haven’t done the prep work is likely to get them injured.
@52 – Yep, pretty much. :D
@56: Awesome stuff.
I also just meant that I’d been reading your avatar for months as “Greyjoy.”
@56: Oh, I thought your “greenjoy” was the same as mine, if you know what I mean
@59: If it were, I might be better at consistently thinking like Patchface. Instead, I often think like Aeron while acting like Patchface
@54: No, it’s very clear at this point that the show is no way, shape or form the same story as the book series. Whether it has the same “ending” in the sense of what happens with the Others and the dragons and who, if anyone, sits on the Iron Throne, is irrelevant, since the characters, their journeys, the relationships and the themes are completely different. I mean, you could say that Shakespeare’s “Richard III”, Sharon Kay Penman’s “Sunne in Splendour” and the BBC/Starz series “The White Queen” are all the same story because they have the same ending – spoiler! he is killed in battle and Henry Tudor takes over – but no.
Also, spoiler! Titanic sinks. Now you don’t have to watch that movie if you already haven’t.
(Actually, don’t watch it. It’s awful.)
@61 That’s a fair point. And an amusing analogy. I may be wrong, but I sensed some bitterness there. I know the latest decisions by the showrunners have caused unfortunate consequences, so I understand the sentiment.
I won’t discuss details the TV show here, because I believe Leigh hasn’t seen it yet (BTW, that could be a fun project when she finishes A Dance With Dragons – her reactions are fun to read), but to be honest I like the differences.
I’ll never regret reading books (I love “living many lives”), but my foreknowledge of events has lessened the impact of pretty much every moment on the show from the 2nd season onwards. Since I read those scenes in the book, all I could see was what’s missing. And obsess over why it was missing.
I miss the days when I didn’t know exactly what was coming in the next episode. When Ned’s beheading was a shocking surprise, and Dany walking from that pyre with three dragons gave me hope of better things to come.
The changes keep me guessing. They keep me yearning to see how these different roads can ever lead to the same destination. As long as the show mantains its internal consistency, I won’t complain. I just want to be entertained.
Besides, eventually the show will be forced to enter uncharted territory. They’ll most likely reach the end of published material in this season’s finale. I can’t wait for it.
Wait, you seriously want to die because she’s having sex with someone she does not like? Seriously? Come on, it’s not like there are nice, age-appropriate men running around. Dany hate is ridiculous.
I think someone likes Daario way more than she’s comfortable admitting!
@62: Well, that’s another big problem. Without going into details here, I don’t think their own storylines and characterizations are internally consistent at this point, just looking at the show itself and not comparing it to the books. This season and the last in particular have been full of contradictions, plot holes and inconsistencies. It’s like they started off or set up some storylines last season in a certain way and then completely changed direction. And a bunch of characters have been acting in strange and irrational ways just to make certain plotlines happen.
It would have been better if they had just decided to go off the books completely and make up their own story, and made it consistent. But they are trying to hit the major plot points or feature a version of some famous scenes from the books, but with a changed context and different characterizations (or even swapped characters), it feels like trying to push a square peg into a round hole.
I mostly enjoyed the first three seasons. The fourth season was ok, although certain deviations from the books seemed weird and unjustified. At that point i was still willing to give the show the benefit of doubt, and tried my best to convince myself that it is just my “book fan bias”, and not all changes are bad. But unfortunately season 5 has so far confirmed my worst suspicions, the drop in quality is now obvious to me.
I think the showrunners simply don’t get all the layers of the books. They like the plot twists, and the moments of shock, but don’t seem to care about their thematic relevance to the story or consistent character developement all that much.
@34 YEAH, she made a terrible choice, but let’s not fault her for that because she’s making her OWN choices!! Wahoo, let’s hope she jumps off a cliff now, sure it’s not a great choice, but at least she’s the one making it, right?
Blargh.
Does anyone know what happened to the Wheel of Time Reread? Some time between Friday June 19th and Saturday June 20th all links to it disappeared. I wasn’t done yet!!!
Why hate Daario so much? For advising to kill nobles at wedding, when it seems to be the only solid way to have peace?
And why would Dany refuse to be watched by Hizdahr’s family’s female members? I mean, if you want to marry local noble for peace, be ready for traditions, too. Or is it that she’s afraid tyrre’d be unfertility signs to be found, as result of Mirri’s curse?
Also, looks like neither Dany nor Viserys never heard about Great Spring Sickness that occured apprx. 90 years ago and claimed lives of couple of princes, as was told in D&E story no. 2.