Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan found her new home in the warcamps. This week, Bridge Seventeen and Kaladin begin in-depth chasm training.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 41: Scars
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: the chasms
Symbology: Spears, Jezrien, Vedeledev
IN WHICH Kaladin finds the chasms homey; Bridge Seventeen begins chasm training; Syl challenges Kaladin to reconsider his purpose; he keeps his boots dry; Sigzil, Rock, and Lopen ask questions; Kaladin falls flat on his back; Syl is charmingly impertinent and gives Sigzil the fantods; the men discuss the cut-railing event; Kaladin performs a Basic Lashing!!!; he figures out his “purpose,” then falls off the wall—but only gets a soft clap from Rock because it didn’t include falling on his face; they return to discussing the railing, and Kaladin begins to see the truth; Renarin seeks to join Bridge Four; Kaladin knows a little too much about epilepsy for “field medicine” purposes; Moash drops a few more hints that all is not well with him; the lieutenants go out for the evening; Kaladin is far too dismissive of Sylphrena.
Quote of the Week:
Lopen and Rock whooped below in excitement. Kaladin stared outward at the blue sky. “I have to know,” he whispered.
“Know?”
“You ask me why I protect Dalinar. I have to know if he really is what he seems, Syl. I have to know if one of them lives up to his reputation. That will tell me—”
“Tell you?” she asked, becoming the image of a full-size young woman standing on the wall before him. She was nearly as tall as he was, her dress fading to mist. “Tell you what?”
“If honor is dead,” Kaladin whispered.
“He is,” Syl said. “But he lives on in men. And in me.”
And Kaladin goes on to promise that if Dalinar really is who he seems to be, he will get his Knights Radiant; Kaladin will reveal what he can do and trust him not to somehow take it away. Oh, Kaladin, Kaladin. It is not Dalinar who will fail you.
Commentary: This chapter covers a lot of ground—including some vertical runs—and I know I can’t do justice to it all. But I’ll give it the old college try, eh?
Kaladin’s bridgeman training project enters phase two: having trained the sergeants, it’s now time to start training the units. Into the chasms with them! Heave, HO! But it works. I can’t prove it, but IMO it works because it somehow makes them see themselves as A Unit rather than a bunch of individual grunts. Right up front, Kaladin’s thoughts tell us that while some of them were purchased as slaves specifically for the bridge crews, plenty of them had been soldiers who broke some rule or other and got sentenced to bridge duty for it. Training, then, is not so much a matter of learning basic skills, but retraining the mind to be a responsible member of a cohesive unit. I do love the way they return to camp and find one of Rock’s assistants cooking a group stew.
Of course, the real news of the chapter is that Kaladin finally, consciously, deliberately performs a Basic Lashing (and only falls three times in the process). Did you notice that he sees Shadesmar here? He doesn’t enter it, only just gets a faint look at it, but that momentary connection with the Cognitive gives him the last little zip needed to make it work. He runs up the side of the chasm. Hey, good work if you can get it!
Sadly, he spoils his own moment with his suspicion, his mistrust, and his unconscionably arrogant and dismissive attitude toward Syl. Makes me want to reach in and smack him around a little bit.
Renarin: Please be gracious when arguing whether Renarin’s desire to join Bridge Four, and Kaladin’s decision to let him, is a good thing. Personally, I think it’s great on multiple levels. What interests me more, though, is this piece:
“I will obey your commands,” Renarin said. “Treat me like a new recruit. When I’m here, I’m not a prince’s son, I’m not a lighteyes. I’m just another soldier. Please. I want to be part of it. When Adolin was young, my father made him serve in a spearman squad for two months.”
“He did?” Kaladin asked, genuinely surprised.
“Father said every officer should serve in the shoes of his men,” Renarin said. “I have Shards now. I’m going to be in war, but I’ve never felt what it’s like to really be a soldier. I think this is the closest I’ll be able to get. Please.”
Kaladin folded his arms, looking the youth over. Renarin looked anxious. Very anxious. He’d formed his hands to fists, though Kaladin could see no sign of the box Renarin often fiddled with when nervous. He’d begun breathing deeply, but had set his jaw, and kept his eyes forward.
Coming to see Kaladin, to ask this of him, terrified the young man for some reason. He’d done it anyway. Could one ask anything more of a recruit?
There’s a lot of juiciness right here, but the last part fascinates me. Why was Renarin so terrified of asking Kaladin if he could join Bridge Four? And what was the impetus that drove him to do so despite his fear? It’s these little glimpses of a sensitive soul and an amazing self-control that truly built my respect for Renarin in this book. I want so badly to know more.
For the first time in forever, Kaladin sets aside his anti-lighteyes fervor and considers this young man as an actual human being. Moash… well, Moash makes me wonder why I react so much more negatively to his prejudices than to Kaladin’s. I suppose a lot of it is simply that I’ve been in Kaladin’s head a lot, and as much as I get angry at him for his attitudes, at least I understand them. The other part is, I’ll admit, my own personal experience with this attitude: “He doesn’t act right, Kal. The way he talks, the way he looks at people. He’s strange.”
Of course, I have to admit that my attitude toward Moash is thoroughly affected by knowledge of later events, so I suppose I’m not being entirely fair to him. Too bad, I guess…
Stormwatch: I’m just going to dub this the Energizer day, okay?
Sprenspotting: Sylphrena executes all manner of activity in this chapter. My personal favorites are when she pokes Kaladin in the neck to get his attention, when she takes the form of a full size woman to confront Kaladin, and when she allows Sigzil to see her—and then makes her face look exactly like his. That’s my favorite. Heh. She also dances with a flamespren for some reason. Regarding other spren, though, there’s this:
He passed piles of bones and wood, overgrown with moss. On one pile, rotspren and lifespren spun about one another, little motes of red and green glowing around the vines that sprouted incongruously from the mass of death.
Now I really, really wonder what this would look like in the Cognitive realm. Really wonder.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: Kurls, crabs, tortoises, chasmfiends. Kurls apparently assign the job of protecting the eggs to the male of the species, and look like a cross between a crab and a tortoise—incidentally implying they have crabs and tortoises on Roshar. Just to prove it, Rock picks up a crab for a snack.
As for the chasmfiend… well, we don’t see it in this chapter, but there is unequivocal evidence that it has been through here very recently. ::shudder:: I assume this is the same chasmfiend that Kaladin and Shallan will encounter later?
You Have to Break a Lot of Rockbuds: I renamed this category, just because. I don’t always notice food on the way by why I’m reading, but on Roshar, it seems like everything edible comes in a shell. Except chicken and bacon. Rock, of course, doesn’t bother removing the shell before he starts munching. Yum…
Heraldic Symbolism: This week’s Heralds are obvious, I think: Jezrien reflects the Windrunning Kaladin finally achieves, along with the leading and protecting functions he maintains. Vedel, as she did in TWoK, almost always graces any chapter which references Kaladin’s early training with his father—in this case, the discussion of Renarin’s epilepsy.
Words of Radiants:
This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20
Buh. Here we are, doing the great villainy of Chapter 38 some more. Who was fighting whom? When? Was this scenario related to the scene Dalinar saw at Feverstone Keep? This thing is just going to keep nagging at me until it gets cleared up: What caused the Recreance, and what was the sequence of events?
This quotation also opens up that can of worms labeled “The Order That Didn’t.” Didn’t what? Not sure, exactly, but didn’t something. Speculation abounds that one Order has been maintained continuously for the last umpty-thousand years, albeit in secret. Speculation has also identified several different Orders as that One Order, all with justifications that seem logical to the proponents of the theory. Me, I ain’t sayin’ nothin’.
Just Sayin’: Okay, I’m totally sayin’ somethin’—just not about that subject. Lots of little idioms in this chapter: “Heralds send…;” “like a father kurl watches over his eggs;” “what storm brought them a….” They’re fairly straightforward and relatable, in general. I got a chuckle out of the guys going out to “visit a few taverns, play some rings, get something to drink”—sounds like “rings” might be the Rosharan equivalent of darts. My totally favorite one, of course, was the Lopen:
“Gon, I haven’t been to Herdaz since I was a baby. There are as many Herdazians in Alethkar and Jah Keved these days as there are in our homeland. Flick my sparks, I’m practically an Alethi! Only not so tall and not so grouchy.”
Not sure what the relationship is, but in a few chapters there will be a Herdazian using a sparkflicker. What is it with Herdazians and flicking sparks?
Also, spark is one of those words—it ceases to sound like a real word when you use it too many times in a row. Just sayin’.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Shallan begins her infiltration projects. File under “things that will definitely go well.”
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She would like to take this opportunity to remind all WorldCon members to do your reading and voting for the Hugo awards; for the rest of you, she’d like to encourage you all to become WorldCon members and then do the reading and voting. Team Sanderson intends to be present in force, and if you come too, please look for Wetlander at Registration. She’d love to meet you in person.
Good post – some good things to chew on.
On Herdazians and sparks – I would think it is part of their ethnic pride – with their fingernails being crystalline, they seem to be able to create sparks by just using a spark-flicker – which I assume means that of all the races in the world they are the only ones able to create fire with (the equivalent of) only one half of the classic flint and steel. This definitely sets them apart, and would be a source of pride (if my assumption about what the spark-flicker is is correct), and thus it is not surprising that idioms about sparks and spark-flickers would become ethnically and culturally significant as a signifier of cultural belonging and identity.
It makes me wonder if this will be more fleshed out as we see more Herdazians – with spark-flickers as family heirlooms?
I think that there are a couple of reasons why Renarin may have been terrified. I think that the reason was that he was afraid that Kaladin might say no or that he might be treated differently if he were accepted. He also seems to be doing this on his own, somewhat behind his family’s back (they know later, of course). He’s also not trained in battle and may be thinking of worse case scenarios. Then there’s the fact that he’s not certain how his sickness will affect him there. Finally there’s the fact that, if Kaladin says “No,” where can he go next? None of the lighteyed captains would treat him as a new or raw recruit because of who he is.
I think part of the reason he did it was because he was already progressing towards being a Radiant and that made him think he had to be a warrior or at least able to protect himself.
I LOVED Syl’s response of “He is, but . . .” I don’t mean that I loved what it meant, but just the fact that that statement gave me chills the first time that I read it.
As for the Bridgemen training, while I think that it is a part of being a unit, it is more about being a part of Kaladin’s unit. They mention multiple times that the other crews all look at Bridge 4 as something different from themselves. Taking them into the chasms shows that Bridge 4 welcomes them as their own.
As frustrating as Kaladin’s opinion towards lighteyes may be, I still understand them. He doesn’t have access to the viewpoints that we do and he, of course, interprets things according to his own experiences. I’m getting ahead a bit, but I wonder what would have happened if Amaram had not appeared when he did. Would he actually have revealed himself to Dalinar?
One thing I just thought of while reading this, as to what Renarin’s impetus is, is he’s a Truthwatcher. Perhaps he’s gleaned enough of the future to know he had to train as a warrior for the gathering storm Everstorm whatever’s coming next.
Renarin is autistic. It is fact we need to know in order to understand this chapter and since, before then, we have been given close to no clues pertaining his condition, it is a very hard exercise.
Why is it relevant? Because with autism comes a certain rigidity. Higher level autistic individuals do not deal well with change, in general. It creates in them an abnormal amount of stress and anxiety. Also, autistic individuals struggle with any social interaction so for autistic Renarin to go forward, to demand the change to be included within Bridge 4, to step in and voice it in front of intimidating Captain Kaladin demanded him to overcome a great deal of obstacles. However, this is lost on the reader as, prior to this event, there is nothing in Renarin’s behavior predisposing him of such a reaction. Or so few. People may point out the box which is not a strong clue in itself as many people tend to play with objects when nervous. I myself cannot let go of my pen.
As for Moash’s comments, I was glad he said it. Stating Renarin behaves weird and talks weird may be the best indication Brandon has put forward to explain his particular condition to the reader. Also, since many people would react this way towards an autistic individual, it was great to put it even if it makes many readers cringed. It served a purpose and I loved it is Moash who said it.
So overall for me, Renarin does not join Bridge 4 because he has a vision or because he foresees a need to become a warrior as Bridge 4 will not teach him how to fight. What will Bridge 4 teach him? Belonging. I do believe Renarin wants to be part of this unit because they stand out and he feels he may fit there. Does he? I do not know. I personally cannot put his ordeal on the same level as the bridgemen and this story arc has always made uncomfortable for reasons I am unable to name. Perhaps it has to do with the fact I can’t connect with Renarin as a character combined with knowing I may be the only fan in this rather difficult situation. The fact is there are many things going on between me and Renarin and some of them are not rational at all.
Kaladin’s continuing dislike of lighteyes is annoying, to say the least. At this point I feel he has started to get irrational. How could Dalinar take surgebinding from him? He knows full well this is not how it works, so he is getting worked up in his fears to the point where he lost all senses. This story arc is actually better on re-read.
Hello all!! Long time lurker, first time poster. Like Alice, I’ve been wracking my brain over what could have caused the Recreance and my theory is that the Radiants of the time found out that the Heralds simply turned their backs on their duty and just…walked away. I think they may have seen this as being a significant level of betrayal, and maybe decided that they (the Radiants) would no longer serve those who could commit such an act? When it comes to the Blades and them abandoning the spren *this is major guess work but bear with me* perhaps the Radiants of the time did not know of the relationship between spren and Blade.
That could possibly happen, if these Radiants started out as apprentices, like its being suggested of Bridge Four and were not a full Spren/human bonded pair. We know that “Spren” Blades *my term for Blades that are living Sprens* can be passed from Radiant to Radiant as we’ve seen when Shallan loaned Kaladin her Blade. So perhaps the Orders passed their Blades among themselves? And so long as the Oaths were kept that was enough to keep the Spren alive, even without the full bond?
Now why wouldn’t the Radiants not know of the relationship between Spren and Blade? Alright I’ll admit it, you’ve got me there. :)
@5 shairk – that was my thought exactly! The only reason I could think of that would cause the Radiants to simply abandon their oaths and effectively kill off their spren was that they found out the truth Re: the Heralds. That being said, I think they either knew the consequences of their actions and decided it was a price they could pay, OR they didn’t fully understand that the Spren would die instead of reverting back to their inital states. OR maye it was the Radiants discovered the true nature of their Heralds, re: the associated Madnesses and decided to quit en masse.
@6 The idea that they found out about the Madnesses is intriguing, and goes along with my theory that it’s the Stonewards who are “the order that didn’t.”
shairk @5
Welcome to the comment-dom! I like simple, tidy theories, and yours fits the bill. Wish we knew when the Day of Recreance occurred wrt. the breaking of the oathpact (4505 years ago). However, I–personally–don’t believe that the Knights did not know of the relationship between spren and blade. They must have known the consequences and made a decision to give it up anyway, if yours is the correct explanation. There is also a theory that the Recreance happened when Odium splintered Honor, which in turn severed some connection the Knights had with the Source Honor, leading them to think they had been abandoned and…yeah, cascade effect.
Which is sort of a segue into the That Darn Epigraph Department. Whether “The Order that Didn’t” was Stonewards or Skybreakers or (your favorite choice), they apparently were up to some nasty shenanigans against the other orders. What’s up with that? The Knights are the good guys, heroes, saviors of the world. No teamwork in the crisis–I’m bummed.
First off, I have to apologize for any major oversights or incoherency in the post – my brain was going seriously sleep-fuddled, and I couldn’t make it work right for love nor money. Oy.
Second… just as I was falling asleep, I remembered something I really wanted to talk about, and totally left out:
I can certainly understand Renarin’s bitterness in this scene. He’s been subjected to this dichotomy all his life – you’re fine just as you are, don’t worry about it, not everyone can do this BUT this is the best thing to be and without it you’ll be a second-class after-lifer. It’s not enough to be physically incapable of the thing your culture praises most – you’re constantly told that there’s no hope of anything better in the after-life either. Yuck. It makes me profoundly grateful that my eternity doesn’t depend on me…
sillyslovene @1 – Oh, of course! At first I was thinking that they could make sparks with just their fingernails, but of course that doesn’t work, and the other Herdazian clearly has a gizmo. But logically, all a Herdazian needs to make sparks is a steel, and as soon as you point it out I’m all ::facepalm:: I’m sure by now they’ve perfected the form that works best, too; it would be rather cool if that form is hard to come by and it’s a real specialty item that gets handed down. I like that idea!
Rybal @2 – Those are all potential reasons for Renarin’s fear, and we may never get more. I just want so much to understand him better! And you’re quite right, that Kaladin’s (and even Moash’s) attitudes toward lighteyes are understandable, however annoying they may be. My personal opinion has always been that Kaladin would have revealed himself to Dalinar much sooner if Amaram had not shown up and looked to be such a friend of Dalinar’s. But of course we’ll never know that!
And… I see that there are many more comments I’ll want to interact with!!! but right now I have to go watch my daughter get a Latin achievement award for acing the cumulative exam. :D
So much to comment upon, great job, Alice! I am planning several smaller comments, rather than one big one.
I noticed this, too. The more responsibility that is both thrust upon and earned by Kaladin, the worst his attitude toward Syl.
Kaladin handles pressure by narrowing everything into a tunnel-vision focus. She’s trying to add windows so that Kaladin can see where he’s going. He dismisses her as frivolous because, well, she does act frivolously sometimes (it’s who/what she is!), and, he just wants to do what he wants to do and she’s distracting him. And he likes to hate. In slavery he grew to think of his hate as a strength.
This is the thing that Syl keeps trying to point out to him, his hate and how it is beginning to motivate him.
Insert one of: assassin/Roshone/the king/Amaram/Sadeas/Gaz/ for [his/he]. There are a *lot* of people that Kaladin says these two statements about. Kaladin uses these vignettes as internal pressure valves; he doesn’t actually intend to kill any of them at this point in the story, he ‘hates how good he is at killing’. But Syl understands that his is a very dangerous coping mechanism. Syl is trying to get Kaladin to realize that thinking that way in order to blow off emotional steam opens himself to start believing in the necessity of and then doing the killing, of becoming a killer.
Syl understands a lot about what happened in the past with the KR, even if she can’t bring that knowledge into the physical realm with her yet. And she certainly understand the nature of Honor and its antipathy to ‘killers’. Kaladin’s kind of thinking opens the soul to Odium, and she’s trying to prevent that kind of soul-wedge opening in him. She can’t survive in a bond with someone who is lost in that kind of soul-pattern.
So Syl questions Kaladin, poking him. Making him ponder his motives. Isn’t this only the second time we’ve seen Syl in full-size form – the other being as she watched Sadeas abandoning Dalinar at the Tower, while Kaladin wrestles with his conscience? He doesn’t really notice any import in her size.
How does Kaladin treat her? Like a silly, nagging, sometimes giant, gnat. Argggggh.
Edited to remove blithering (my own) ::headpalm::
Sadly I think part of Kaladin’s problem with Syl is the same as what we also see later with Shallan and Pattern: they’re partners in the Nahel bond, but the spren just aren’t as there. Kaladin even tries to take Syl’s hand in this chapter, but of course it doesn’t work. I think that makes it easier for Kaladin to dismiss her, especially when it’s also combined with his memories of her when she was more childish/windspren-like earlier.
As @mnmama pointed out above, Kaladin nurtured hatred as a slave. And really who could blame him, after what Amaram did? Kaladin knows, deep down, that Syl is right, but he’s coming off years of hatred, of course that won’t change quickly.
I have no doubt that Kaladin would have let on about his powers to Dalinar earlier if Amaram had not shown up. Amaram is the focus of so much of Kaladin’s hate, of course him being there causes Kaladin mental conflict.
Plus it doesn’t help Kaladin’s mental health that he has serious issues as a workaholic: he thinks he literally can’t relax, which is both kind of amusing and horrifying.
Scenes like this are a big reason why I love Brandon’s detailed magic systems. I have so much fun watching characters learn how to use their extraordinary powers.
“Honor is dead” – such a haunting phrase, both from a cultural standpoint (a culture where the idea of doing right simply because it is right has gone completely by the wayside is… less than ideal, to put it mildly), and from a Cosmere standpoint. The literal super-powered embodiment of the concept of honour was killed by the embodiment of hatred. *shudder*
Alice, out of curiosity, what orders of KR have you seen suggested as “the one that didn’t”? I’ve seen Skybreakers, based on the fact that Helaran went looking for a group that at the very least bears the same name, as well as the Stonewards, based on the fact that their sponsoring Herald was also “the one that didn’t” in his own way. Are there any other common speculations out there? On an unrelated note: “It makes me profoundly grateful that my eternity doesn’t depend on me…” – you and me both!
I really wish someone–say his own spren perhaps–would explain to Renarin that the ardentia, while doubtless filled with many intelligent and decent people, is wrong in that the afterlife (if it is generally definable instead of individualistic in the Cosmere) is almost certainly not a battle to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls or anywhere else.
Come to think of it, I wonder what the Spiritual Realm is like around Roshar given Odium’s nature…
@1 sillyslovene – chew on – Herdazians – and spark-flickers – I love it!
@2 Rybal – Other reasons why Renarin may have been terrified:
1) I think Renarin *desperately* needs a mentor. He’s been rejected by his father, his brother, and everyone else who he’s asked for help to become a warrior. As several have said, everyone keeps telling him to just accept being a non-warrior. So he comes to Bridge Four to ask Kaladin to be his mentor, and is treated as a dangerous, weird person by those at the camp – Kaladin actually thinks everyone is in combat mode when he walks into camp. I’d be terrified if everyone around me in Bridge Four was in combat stance, staring at me with varying shades of fear, anger, and contempt.
Here’s my wild theory: Renarin started bonding to a spren in childhood, or whenever everyone started saying he had ‘fits’. It’s his family who says he’s disabled by fits, and of course he believes them. Think of all the odd behavior that early bonding proto-KsR exhibit. I think our first hint that Renarin is a proto-KR was in WOK, Chapter 42, in his reaction to Dalinar’s vision of the Recreance-in-Real-Time.
This is Dalinar’s perspective of Renarin at the time. I think Renarin was already far down the path to KRy by this time in WOK. Notice how comfortable Renarin is discussing the vision that Dalinar saw. Could Renarin possibly have seen the vision along with his father? Hence the ‘fit’. His ideas about exploring the vision, and the comfort he has in discussing it, seem at odds with the typical Vorin reaction to visions. If he were a (even proto-) Truthwatcher, however, it makes a lot more sense.
All of Renarin’s ‘fits’ we’ve observed as readers since then have been in relation to Renarin trying to bond with a Blade or use his Blade. We know a bonded KR hears the screams, and we know by the end of the book that that’s what Renarin has been dealing with when trying to use his Blade. Do we know if Plates are dead, too? And if so, do they scream if you have your helmet on? That would explain why Renarin also isn’t “competent” in the use of Plate yet, either.
Issue of: his eyesight and glasses: I think that his eyesight was healed long before people noticed he wasn’t wearing his glasses. He was always in Plate when it was noticed. When not in Plate, he wore glasses, but the glasses were fake, like Jasnah’s soulcaster, to deflect notice. In Plate, glasses were awkward and he didn’t wear them.
Issue of: if he’s that bonded to his spren, why did he have to bond with a ‘dead’ Blade. Why didn’t his spren become his Blade? Because Renarin is autistic. His autism makes it difficult for him to relate to human interactions. Wouldn’t it also make it difficult to relate to spren interactions, too? Spren/Human interactions are always awkward, especially at first. For Renarin and his spren, it must be almost impossible for the spren to communicate with Renarin, and there’s a level of ‘emotional’, for want of a better word, bonding that we’ve observed between Syl/Kaladin and Shallan/Pattern prior to them reaching that final level where the proto-KR speaks the oath that allows their spren to transform. I don’t think Renarin has achieved that yet with his spren. Plus, we don’t know what kind of tool that a Truthwatcher would normally use, so maybe we have seen Glys transform but didn’t recognize him (i.e, the rock that Renarin was using in the Oathgate?).
2) As we’ve seen with Kaladin, his identity of ‘slave’ prevents him from healing his slave brand (we believe) or from accepting the Freedom tatoo. Similarly, Renarin’s own identity of ‘non-warrior’, influenced by EVERYONE around him, could be preventing Glys from transforming into a Blade. Which is the second reason Renarin could be so desparate to have Kaladin mentor him, and why he wants to learn to be a soldier so badly, to the extent that he’s trembling. It’s Kaladin’s interpretation that he’s terrified.
Has Renarin’s little box ever been addressed? Is it possible the little box is where he “keeps” Glys (or whatever his spren’s name is)? I was wondering about this, because his fiddling about with the box has been mentioned before. That little detail jumped out to me for some reason this time.
As far as his apprehension, or fear, over asking Kalladin to allow him to join Bridge 4, I wonder if it doesn’t have something to do with his prescient abilities. This is way out there speculation, but could it be that he has seen, or maybe Glys has told him, that Bridge 4 is where the Radiants are going to come from, and if he isn’t a member of Bridge 4, then he must be a Voidbringer? Let’s not forget that to see the future is considered abomination… I wonder if that superstition doesn’t owe its origin to some aspect of his Order being responsible for the Recreance?
Sorry, lots of baseless speculation, but that’s the joy of reading these books, and going through this exercise. :-)
If I understand correctly (big “if”), the Desolation/Apocalypse has been put off for longer than normal this time. This seems largely credited to Taln. But, what if the Radiants discovered that they were somehow linked to it as well? I don’t know, maybe somebody came to them and said, “OK, kiddies, time to get ready for the next end of the world.” If they somehow thought breaking their bonds with their spren/trapping them as swords would hold it off, their actions make sense.
I’m just speculating madly.
@14 mnmama: I like the idea that Renarin’s spren is having difficulties in becoming a Shardblade because he is no warrior – though he might not be progressed enough.
I’m still bothered by Brandon’s statement that Renarin is autistic – because even though I know now, I don’t see it in his interaction with other people. Yes Moash says he is/acts strange, but in the interaction with Kaladin here and with his brother earlier and later he seems normal. I know there are different levels of autistic “(dis)ability” but an impaired people – interaction – i.e. the lack of being able to have another POV and the problems with nonverbal communication are a part autism (as much as stereotypic behaviour) and I don’t really see it in the interaction between Renarin and others. He and his brother seem to have a close relationship, not what I would expect of an autist.
Re Scars (chapter title): Kaladin wonders why he retained his slave brand and I know we discussed this before. I’m just wondering again, what it will take for them to vanish. (Or do they vansih at the end of WoR and I just forgot?) Him accepting his KR status would seem to be enough to shed the self-image of being a branded slave, wouldn’t it?
@the powers that be (at Tor): this is my first comment since the redesign. Why is the writing in the comment-box so litte? I can hardly read what I’m writing, before I hit preview. :)
On The Order That Didn’t: Those are obviously the Bondsmiths, aka, Dalinar’s guys. There’s supposed to be only 3 of them at most, right? You’re hardly going to be able to pull some sort of mass action with those kinds of numbers.
Herdazians have strangely Filipino feel to me (says the Filipino). They’re everywhere, their food is weird but delicious, and they conveniently have cousins everywhere.
Isn’t Kaladin’s glimpse of Shadesmar here right in line with an excerpt from Words of Radiance? The one that talks about the Elsecallers having the most complete access to Shadesmar, with the Lightweavers and Willshapers close behind, but that the Windrunners and (someone else?) being at least able to look into it a little bit.
I totally understand Renarin’s fear of rejection here even without factoring his autism or other unknown factors. For some of us, presenting ourselves to authority and asking for them to accept (or forgive) us is a very stressful process — akin, I think, to public speaking for some people.
People keep talking about how Kaladin’s mistakes drive them crazy and make them want to slap him around. I think this is a great place for us to take a step back and remember that Kaladin, though he is deeply flawed (as most well-rounded characters are), is still a hero. He doesn’t care that Renarin is “weird” like Moash complains, or that it will be hard for his men to adjust and accept Renarin. He’s wise enough to accept Renarin as a human being anyway and demonstrate some trust in him — even though Renarin is a lighteyes. That’s a good indication that Kaladin has the potential to overcome his hatred and resentment. I’ve focused more in the past on Kaladin’s acceptance of Rlain in giving him a spear, but frankly given his relationship to lighteyes, accepting Renarin in this chapter is probably an even more heroic moment for Kaladin.
Interesting connection between Vedel and chapters talking about surgery skills. I missed that, partly because Vedel tends to show up on almost every flashback chapter. I guess in a lot of the WoK flashback chapters, she had double reason to show up, as the Herald of Doctors in addition to the Herald of Memory. (The latter being evidenced by Lift’s Edgedancer Oath, and the former going well with the Surge of Regrowth.)
I initially favored the theory that the Stonewards were “the Order that Didn’t”, but I don’t think I can reconcile that with how Dalinar sees the Stonewards abandon their order at Feverstone Keep.
I’m quite sure Kaladin would have cooperated with Dalinar sooner without Amaram around. Amaram embodies Kaladin’s irrational fear that the lighteyes will “take away” his powers, and Kaladin’s trust in Dalinar was healthily growing until Amaram showed up.
@5: Agreed, I think the Recreance was triggered by the KRs finding out they’d been betrayed by their demigods, the Heralds. With probably some more complications and misunderstandings along the way.
@14: Interesting theory. Wish we’d gotten further with Kaladin diagnosing Renarin’s brand of epilepsy, so we could better judge whether it might be spren-caused. Not that we know all effects that spren can have.
I have to object, though, to your statement that Renarin has been rejected by his father. On the contrary, although he had told Renarin many times that he didn’t have to be a warrior, Dalinar knew that his son wasn’t satisfied with that, and (independently) came up with the idea of getting Renarin a set of Plate so that he could learn to be a warrior in spite of his limitations. To me, that’s a rather strong anti-rejection.
@14: How was Renarin rejected by his father and his brother? His family has never been anything else but tremendously supportive of him. He couldn’t be a soldier, so they tried to geared him towards another path were they thought he would excel. Isn’t what good family relatives do? They try to help you? Unfortunately for them, Renarin just wouldn’t give up on becoming a soldier so Dalinar ends up giving him a valuable Plate just so he could try. Let’s not forget Dalinar was also the one who strongly argued Shards should always go to the best possible warrior and yet he gives them to the worst, his son. As for Adolin, he has never ever rejected Renarin! He has done everything he could to help his brother: he arranged himself such as to give him the best possible swords master, Zahel. He helps him in his training and never, ever had any comment that indicate he thought his brother should give up. He even gives him the first Blade he won.
I am sorry but I do not agree Dalinar and Adolin are rejecting Renarin. They aren’t. They have done all they could for him, which highlight one of the main issue I have with Renarin. I understand how his sickness and his apparent lack of use hinder him to the point were he grew no self-esteem at all, but I do not understand why the love and unconditional support of his family did not offset some of it… This, is not well enough explain, to me.
I do not buy the theory he bonded Glys since childhood. It seems the spren have started bonding the humans 6 years ago. Now, it could be there were sprens before, but since every single one we have seen so far started the process at around the same time, it is safe to assume no sprens were bonding humans prior to this. Renarin’s fits started as a young child… probably in his early childhood.
As for his spren not becoming a Blade, it is simply a matter of him not being far along enough on the path towards becoming a Radiant. Brandon did state he amount of oaths required to gain a Blade fluctuates from one order to the other, so Renarin must simply not be there yet. Also, if Renarin had spoken oath prior to receiving his dead Blade, he would heard the screams then and his reaction would have been more stringent than a simple snarl.
For myself, the clues we currently have seem to indicate Renarin said the first and probably the second oath sometimes during WoR, but these are not enough for Truthwatcher to gain a Blade.
@15 The box is not his spren. This has been asked.
@17: Whereas I have many issue with the difficulties to properly identify Renarin’s autism, Brandon did not screw up with his relation with his brother. I have done some reading on the Internet nd while this does not make me an expert, it did help me figure out Renarin better. It is stated high level autisms such as Renarin would indeed have issues decoding the non-verbal signs in many conversations, hence the fact he pauses to think before speaking which women find creepy, but not with their close ones. Adolin, Renarin knows back and forth. He is at complete ease with his brother, he understands him and decodes him well, so it is hardly surprising we cannot decode him as autistic when he interacts with Adolin. I have read many autistic people testifying, on the Internet, how you wouldn’t be able to tell they were autistic if you were to see them with their family and friends, but put them in a group of strangers…
So yes Renarin and Adolin are completely plausible. Renarin projects himself a lot into his big brother and Adolin is very sheltering. They grew up together and they became best friends, worst Renarin is Adolin’s only friend. The opposite is probably true as well.
It is also not rare to have autistic people with other disabilities or self-coordination issues, which would explain his epilepsy and his poor warrior skills. He is just not good at sports.
As for Kaladin, even if it is not stated in text, I think one of the reasons he takes to Renarin rapidly is because he reminds him of Tien. I imagine Renarin must look much younger than his 19 years of age and he is rather helpless, much like Tien was. So yeah, Renarin must have triggered Kaladin’s big brother instinct and he naturally want to protect him.
I was all about to jump on the Stonewards “The Order That Didn’t”. I figured that since Talenel was the one Herald who did not abandon his Oath, neither did the Stonewards. Also, the Stonewards were stubborn to a fault and “they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability.” Then McKay B @19 reminded me that in Dalinar’s vision he thinks that he saw Stonewards as one of the two Orders to abandon their Shardblades and Shardplate.
I say “thinks” in the prior paragraph because Dalinar’s vision ends when the general public starts to fight over the Shardblades and ShardPlate. But what happens if the Stonewards, unlike the other Orders, faked abandoning their Shards. A Knight Radiant can order the Shards to remain if he/she desires. It might have been possible that those who thought they picked up a Stonewards Shardblade or Shardplate simple vanished some time after Dalinar’s vision ended. It is possible that they remained hidden even from the Stormfather. I gather that after Odium killed Honor and the after effects of his Knight(s) abandoning his/her Oaths would have left the Stormfather a bit distracted. He may not notice the Stonewards going under ground.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@19, @20 Sorry. Bad word choice on my part. I didn’t mean that Dalinar and Adolin rejected Renarin, just that they didn’t see him as a warrior, even though they were both quite willing to provide the Plate and Blade, Zahel and one-on-one time with Adolin, in order to let him try. I don’t think there’s any doubt that Renarin *knew* that they didn’t believe he was or could be a warrior, is there? They were being supportive, but Renarin wanted to become a warrior to the extent that he would have a real place in war. He wanted to apprentice as a warrior, and since Dalinor did not set one up, Renarin took the initiative and approached Kaladin. The question had been, why did he seem terrified. I was trying to address that specific issue with my original statement. His intensity was interpreted by Kaladin as terror, but my suggestion was instead desperate desire.
@20 Do we know when Renarin was diagnosed? He told Kaladin “kid”, which can mean anything. We don’t know what age Shallan began the process with Pattern, but she was in the kid range. We do know that Renarin was far enough along to hear the screaming early in WOR, because he really didn’t want to take the Blade his brother gave him after Adolin dueled the first time. WOR Ch 14, p226
@21: Sadly, if the Stonewards are the Order That Didn’t and are still around, it’s hypothesized that they are now the Stone Shamanate, which (IMO) means their tenacious heroism has turned into corruption over the intervening centuries. (Based on how they’ve treated Szeth.)
But in any case, your theory is plausible, but Occam’s Razor makes me skeptical of it.
Sprenspotting: Sigzil’s discomfort with Syl’s linguistic abilities makes me go hmmm. He’s the Worldsinger, right? He’s the one who goes around educating the world about one another. He seems a little too shaken… “The stories say the Nightwatcher might be capable of that …. Powerful spren. Vast spren.”
Syl dancing with the flamespren? Hmm, flamespren live in hearths, so they are in most homes/gathering places, so … maybe they are centers for spren gossip??? It could be that Syl did it after Kaladin said he had to ‘look in at the fires of the other crews’ as an excuse for not going out taverning with the gang. I like the gossip idea better, though ;-)
Words of Radiance: Does anyone else read this to say that after the KsR dropped their Blades and Plates and withdrew, that the ex-KsR were attacked, destroying much of the membership of nine out of ten of the Orders? I guess I have always assumed that most of the ex-KsR had gone off to live the remainder of their lives whereever. I guess it would make it much easier for history to be re-written if there weren’t any of them left to dispute the facts.
The Order That Didn’t: Just wondering, which of the 10 Orders would be most likely to found and pursue the Hieracracy? Could the ‘great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine’ be the Heirocrachy and the vilification of the Knights Radiant? FWIW, in the Vision of the Recreance-In-Real-Time (sorry) the Feverstone Keep was notified by the Radiants that they were the Order of the Stonewards and some number (approximately 100 or more) individual Windrunners. So, that seems pretty clear – unless BWS is being less precise than it seems he usually is – that the Order of Stormwards *Did*.
Just Sayin’: Teft uses an interesting expression when Kaladin asked where he’d been during the Highstorm. He said “Time may have gotten away from me for a breath or two …” <emphasis mine>
Does that sound Rosharan? And when Syl is talking to Sigzil about spren gender, she uses the word “gobbletyblarthy”. Has she been talking to Wit?
When I read this chapter, I was struck that Kaladin shared all the details from the balcony railing assassination attempt with Rock, Lopen, and Sigzil. Dalinar removed everyone from the balcony when they were discussing it so that they would have absolute privacy, and he ordered Kaladin to not tell anyone else. I was surprised, some, to see Kaladin break that promise so easily. I understand why he did, it was the inner circle of bodyguards, and he did order the three not to tell anyone, but still ….
And Moash. Moash shows us how far Kaladin has come along the path from indiscriminant hatred of lighteyes. I agree with @19 McKay that accepting Renarin in this chapter is a truly heroic moment for Kaladin.
Edited to fix spelling error
Re: “It makes me profoundly grateful that my eternity doesn’t depend on me…”
I am grateful my eternity does depend upon me. I think, therefore I exist. And I act. My actions have real consequences.
Travyl @17: “He and his brother seem to have a close relationship, not what I would expect.” Autism does not necessarily prevent close relationships like this one (in fact, the opposite is true), though Renarin likely can’t have very many relationships like that.
@9 Wetlander: you did good. And so did your daughter. You go girrrrl!
@21 In the vision, Dalinar hears the scout say that it was the Windrunners with some Stonewards.But, I cannot seriously see a Stoneward using subterfuge at the expense of the orders.
@18 Ditto for the Bondsmiths. Can anyone imagine Dalinar using subterfuge at the expense of an ally? (A very Alethi ting to do but not a Dalinar thing)
In my opinion. the Skybreakers are a very good possibility, based on Jasnah’s words in the Epilogue of WoR,
(WoR Spoilers)
where she says she spoke to the Highspren (spren of the Skybreaker order) and received information from them about the previous Desolations and how they came about. Since Pattern says that whole groups of spren died during the Recreance (entire peoples) thus making information very difficult to obtain, it makes sense that the surviving spren of the Order that faked their surrender would still remember the Desolation.
As for the Recreance it happened over 3000 years after the last Desolation (or at least after the opening scene of TWoK), and Radiants have been around for longer than that so I doubt that they do not know that they can kill their spren if they betray their oaths. They should by this time know everything the bond grants them and any problems too.
@28 Kelek’s Breath – references please for the dates. The Coppermind is very vague on the matter. Inquiring minds want to know, please. Check Chapter 52 in WOK – it was the Order of Stormwards and individual Windrunners.
@29mnmama: you are correct, I misremembered the quote.
The date for the Recreance comes from a recent signing (Chicago 2015) where Brandon was asked if the date was closer to the Last Desolation (4500 years ago) or to recent events, and he said it was closer to the present and it was before the Hierocracy which was a few hundred before present events. I can attach link but not sure what the rules for the re-read are.
@22: Thanks for clarifying your position. I was truly puzzled as to why you would claim Dalinar and Adolin rejected Renarin. Did they really believe Renarin could never be a warrior? I am unsure about this one. Renarin never spend anytime significant time training with the sword… therefore his family has no idea of his true skill… Wasn’t it Dalinar’s words to Renarin? The Plate will enable your natural skill to shine?
I think both Dalinar and Renarin were willing to let him try and were also willing to give him the chance to prove his worth. However, let’s not forget Renarin is seriously untrained so him joining a crew was out of the question. Too dangerous. Adolin did it as a youth, but Adolin was a trained fighter then. There is why, I believe, Dalinar did not insist on putting Renarin is a squad: it was too early. First, he needed to gather some skill, but to Dalinar’s defense, he did insist Renarin accompany Adolin on gem hunts so he would get the feel of battle. How many battles had young Adolin spend sitting on a rock watching, surrounded by guards, before daddy let him join? We do not know… but I’d wager quite a lot. Renarin is going ahead of himself on this one. I think he may be forgetting how long his brother trained to reach his current level.
For me, his desperate desire sprouted from his autism… or in part… Renarin knows Bridge 4 won’t help him fight: it was his main argument. All they do is scouting. So why the urgency now? It is hard to figure out… Perhaps it truly is, as others have said, his vision of the upcoming Everstorm prompt him to better himself, to get ready. However, I tend to think the additional stress and anxiety caused by his autism explains most of his behavior in this chapter.
As for Renarin being diagnostic as a kid, I agree the term “kid” is rather vague. However, we do know Renarin never undertook swords training and never went into the process of being chosen by a swordsmaster. From Zahel, we know most lighteyed kids go through the process at the age of 10-11, Adolin being the exception in starting at 6 (son of the Blackthorn or very early talent? and why did he go from one swordsmaster to Zahel whom arrived much later? Adolin were you one of these arrogant know-it-all brats that wore down every single swordsmaster until Zahel took you under his wing?). In any advent, since Renarin never got a swordsmaster due to his sickness, we can safely assume it started before he reached the age of 10, so about 10 years ago to the least. Much before any known sprens started bounding humans, so I would say the fits and the Nahel bond are uncorrelated.
As for the grimaced, I feel if he has heard a scream, his reaction would have been more explicit. Remember Relis? For me, it is clear the first time he hears the scream is on the Plains,with Adolin.
@14 mnmama – “Do we know if Plates are dead, too? And if so, do they scream if you have your helmet on?” The best evidence we have in-text is from Adolin’s final duel. Kaladin is able to take one of the duelists’ (Elit?) helmets, and use it as a bizarre sort of boxing glove, without hearing any screams at all. This indicates to me that Plate is not composed of dead spren, or at the very least, that it doesn’t scream when a Surgebinder wields it. I’m not aware of any official word from Brandon on the matter.
@14 and 32
I really don’t see how Plate could be made from dead Spren unless multiple spren somehow become involved in the bond at some point (a possibility I seriously doubt).
Syl and Pattern have been shown to become blades with ease and instantly as living Spren. In Syl’s case (I’m assuming Pattern can too, but so far he’s only changed size) she can freely change into whatever sort of hand-held weapon Kaladin would most useful at the moment. But they can only be in one place at one time. And they’ve only ever been one weapon at a time.
And of course as you pointed out the helmet/boxing glove didn’t bother Kaladin in the least. How then could they be both armor and blade?
As far as we know Shardblades are basically indestructible. Shard Plate on the other hand seems more like a ceramic body armor that slowly cracks to spread damage over a wide surface area, then finally shatters away from the wearer whenever a section has taken too much to prevent the last strike from ripping its wearer to shreds.
It can be freely regrown with light infused gems, but the fact remains it can be destroyed.
My guess is “living” Shard Plate is nothing but solidified Stormlight infused with the will of the bonded KR and spren. That’s why Dalinar saw the helmets disappearing then appearing in his vision rather than the KR’s actually physically taking them off.
The armor was probably meant to be dismissed in a very similar fashion to the modern dead blades.
I am de-lurking to post this, and I’m probably a bit late in terms of where the conversation has gone, but this topic is important to me. In regards to Kaladin’s negativity towards lighteyes (and his whole emotional cycle this book), I’m surprised no one has brought up PTSD (apologies if people discussed this in earlier chapters and I missed it). I have a relative who struggles with both depression and PTSD, and I see clear parallels between this person’s actions and Kaladin’s, especially in Words of Radiance. (Note: this relative’s PTSD has nothing to do with fighting in war, so I can only imagine that Kaladin’s is even worse)
I agree with the assessment that Kaladin probably would have revealed himself to Dalinar sooner if it hadn’t been for Amaram. Amaram is one of Kaladin’s greatest triggers; just thinking about the general always made Kaladin grouchy. Then suddenly to be forced to live within miles of his abuser, to see him on a regular basis, is exactly the kind of situation that would make someone spiral down and out of control. While I, too, sometimes want to reach in and slap Kaladin (sometimes I feel the same way about my relative…) I understand where his irrational thoughts are coming from–a brain that has been rewired due to traumatic events.
This, of course, doesn’t excuse how he acts, especially towards Syl, but his character arc is one of my favorite parts of the book. I especially love that Sanderson shows us that just because Kaladin made a huge emotional breakthrough in Way of Kings, that doesn’t mean his problems are all magically solved. His brokenness is a continuous issue, one that his therapist spren will have to keep helping him with as the books continue. Hopefully now Kaladin will pay more attention to what Syl says!
@31. Gapeto;
Yes, even though his father and brother are very supportive of Renarin, I’m sure they both were certain that he could never be a warrior. Even if Renarin were skilled with the sword, you can’t take him into battle or any hostile situation, as long as it’s possible that he suffers from a fit at any moment. It would make him more than a reliability. Even Renarin acknowledges this in this chapter, when he says that patrolling will likely be the closest he ever comes to feeling how soldiers feel. Even Blade and Plate don’t change this, though magically healing from his fits might. (Like his eyesight the epilepsy might be a disorder that can be healed by the bond, while his autism like is not. (IMO))
Afterlife: Construct of culture
The Norse concept of Valhalla and the Vorin “Tranquiline Halls” are very similar. It sound like less drinking is going on in the Halls however. I also think this is a leftover of the Heralds trying to leave a reminder to the future as a warning of the next Desolation. What better way to have a ready population of fighters, then to make a culture that centers around fighting?
However, I’m glad this is not my fate or faith.
@5: Welcome!
I’m just having a hard time understanding how the Radiants couldn’t know what would happen to their sprens. I’m imagining having a bunch of Syls and Patterns with full knowledge of what they are around. How could their Knights not know what would happen? Maybe not the full knowledge, but a strong idea. So I’m thinking some of the sprens were in agreement with their Knights, despite the cost.
I’m looking forward to having more Radiants and spren around. I want more conversations with multiple spren and people interacting. We need some of that.
@35: Except it contradicts Dalinar’s words in WoK… After the chasmfiend incident, Dalinar talks to Renarin. Renarin more or less tells his father how bummed he is for not being able to be a soldier. To which Dalinar answers that perhaps it was time to try again on his swords lessons. Renarin then shoved it away saying his blood sickness would get in the way, a fact to which Dalinar promptly reply it would not matter IF they put him in a Plate…
I have always interpreted this quote as if implying a Plate would nullify his fits. Now that seems strange, but why would Dalinar think giving Renarin a Plate would solve the issue? Assuming it doesn’t and he still has fit while wearing it, then why does he need one to take swords lessons again? For both books, we have been told Renarin never had any lessons because of his blood sickness which stops mattering the second he has a Plate…
I do not have any good answers to this one, except I have always found it strange giving Renarin a Plate suddenly makes him able to have mere lessons… So the Plate must do something and if it does, then there is no reason to believe both Dalinar and Adolin were not sincere in trying to give Renarin the best possible chance…
My thoughts are they were willing to let him try and Renarin was willing to try as well, but he gave up after the 4 on 1 duel. I am keen to see what his position will be now he knows it was is fault his Blade was screaming at him… I am leaning towards believing he will never be a soldier. After all, Kaladin points out how Moash is more apt with his Plate, after a few days of training, then Renarin after weeks of hard work. The kid just does not have it in him. I hope he finds something else.
@25 Several things that Sigzil did in this chapter seemed strange to me, including what you pointed out. He has lectured others when they react negatively to other cultures, yet he was disgusted when Rock ate the cremling. Maybe it is because he isn’t quite practiced as a worldsinger as he should be, but it still seems off.
@38 crapaflapnasti: LOL I didn’t think that was odd at all. Rock picked that cremling, or whatever it was, up from the bottom of a filthy chasm where rotspren were floating around. EWWWWWWW! ;-)
@37. Gapeto.
I definitely forgot that statement of Dalinar. Though I still think it can’t mean what it sounds like. If Plate would nullyfy his “blood-weakness” they should have had him trained. The fact that the Plate doesn’t come in kid-size would not be a good excuse IMO.
The way I see it Plate doesn’t stop the seizures and Dalinar doesn’t offer him to be a soldier. But he offers to train him to fight (so he might be better at self-defense if the occasion occurs). Even with a weakness it would be better to know how to defend yourself.
So a couple things I didn’t address in my first comment that kind of nag at me:
1) Renarin *potentially* dodged the question of whether his seizures come from a specific brain injury or just started randomly when he was kid – I don’t really think this is it (Renarin doesn’t seem to be in the right state to pull of that kind of Aes Sedai truth), but he really is just implying that they started when he was a kid with no noticeable cause, not actually saying so.
2) Renarin’s reaction to being told he can’t be a soldier is pretty similar to li’l Kaladin’s reaction back in TWoK. It makes me happy that Kaladin agreed to Renarin’s request, not just because Renarin needs it, but because it’s a cute little parallel to what Kaladin had to go through (although it’s not very close – but that’s what makes it work, it’s not incredibly on the nose). Kaladin even rejects the idea first from a more surgical point of view before slowly relenting from a more soldier-oriented position (specifically more like a sergeant).
Putting Renarin in Plate doesn’t “cure” him, it protects him. If he were to train and spar and get hit while unarmored, he would suffer injury. Likewise, if he were to suffer one of his “fits” while wielding a weapon, he would be at risk of serious injury. Once in Plate, this is no longer a concern. Shardplate protects and amplifies physical ability. That is why putting Renarin, someone who suffers a “weakness”, into a set of Plate changes Dalinar’s reasoning.
The other fact that has been ignored is, Renarin’s mother may have had significant input into keeping him off the training grounds if that is the case.
Renarin told Kaladin his episodes are less convulsive seizures are more temporary numbness and weakness in the arm if memory serves.
Dalinar also implied in WOK to Renarin that all soldiers are at roughly the same level of enhanced strength and reflexes while wearing plate. Meaning that skill and experience would be the only things different from one share bearer to the next.
I take these two things to mean that even if Renarin has an episode and his arm grows weak his plate will keep him at the same heightened level .
If he really does seize though, he would ‘ve a sitting duck plate or no .
The question is did he understatw the severity of his condition to the obviously medically trained Kaladin to keep him from changing his mind and turing him down?
@40: I do not think we can expect Dalinar to turn Renarin into a soldier within a few days… Before being to call himself a soldier, Renarin must first learn how to fight. He himself admits that, at his age, he should know how to use a sword, which he doesn’t. Due to his severe lack of training, the Dalinar does not put Renarin into the position of a soldier, right away, does not highlight is disbelieve in his son’s capacity, but clear judgment as to his current set of skills. Renarin needs to learn how to use his weapons BEFORE stepping into the fighting ground. Let’s not forget all kids start their training at 10-11. Renarin is an odd case. My understanding has always been that Dalinar was willing to give his son a chance to try out, to train, to learn how to fight and then to become a soldier, but the kid’s got about 10 years lost of training to gain back.
@42: Renarin’s mother died when he was 9, so before he was old enough to start the training. I thus doubt she had a word to say on the matter. Besides, she agreed to let her other son trained at the age of 6… she must not have been against swords training…
@43: I do not think Renarin gathered Kaladin was medically trained… After all, nobody knows of Kaladin’S background and Renarin was probably too nervous to notice such thing. I think his medical situation is not so bad, but it is still crippling enough to have prevented him from training to become a soldier.
@44 Gepeto
He certainly wouldn’t have had any reason to know prior, but when Renarin tells Kaladin he has a “blood weakness” (the typical blanket explanation for a number of conditions given to the uneducated masses on Roshar) then he starts grilling Renarin about exactly what type of epilepsy he has, how it manifests, how long it has done so, etc. Renarin would have figure out he knows something about the subject.
Autism may dampen the ability to gauge emotional response in others, but based on his behaviour, it would certainly not interfere with his ability to say to himself ‘hey this guy’s asking me stuff about my condition others don’t even know to ask.’
Renarin isn’t exactly comfortable around Kaladin anyway (and honestly who could blame him autism or no), so it’s not hard to see where he might downplay his symptoms at least somewhat. I’m not saying that he definitely did. Just that he could have.
In any case my main point was simply that if his episodes just cause temporary weakness in his extremities rather than full-blown convulsions and loss of conciousness, then Plate could fully counteract that. If he does have seizures, it cannot.
@mods
I agree with travyl @7:
So I’m reproducing her suggestion here and flagging my comment.
@45: I think other commentators have pointed out how going forward and demand, on his own volition, to join Bridge 4 was ac act which demanded courage and would no doubt be a source of stress into anyone. However, the fact Renarin has autism, this action must have been even more so stressing and anxiety related than for anyone else. I would not be surprised to learn the kid practice his little speech in front of his mirror before mustering enough strength to face Kaladin. I would also not be surprised to learn he simply babbled it out and tried not to let Kaladin have a chance to object. In any advent, I do not think Renarin was in the right mind of frame to decode Kaladin must have medical knowledge due to the nature of his questions, not because he is not smart enough to do so, but because he was just too stressed and anxious to pay any heed to it.
I thus do not think he was holding back to Kaladin about the severity of his condition. Besides, let’s not forget the two times Renarin had a fit, in book, it was pretty much how he described it to Kaladin: his arm twitched and he felt weak. Apparently wearing a Plate would nullify those if they were to happen.
Re: Renarin’s struggles with Vorin ideals
Soldiering is clearly the highest Vorin calling, but farming is a close second. I don’t see Renarin, given his noble rearing, putting on bibs and raising pigs, chull and lavis in Northern Alethkar, but he could be the CEO of a large farming conglomerate if that counts as farming. Is there another highly rated calling that would have sufficed instead of soldiering or farming? Without a possibility at hand I’m going to chalk it up to self-imposed pressure driving Renarin to participate in the highest-rated calling.
And wcarter @13
There must be a nugget of truth in the Ardentian Allegorical Dogma™ somewhere. Jasnah certainly has strong opinions on the subject of AAD and wouldn’t mind telling you. Or Renarin. She has already been labeled a heretic, so preaching the non-party line shouldn’t damage her reputation much (more) if word of a chat with Renarin along those lines got out. But I think Renarin’s growing Truthwatcherness will give him some insight before Jasnah does.
Re: Herdazian spark flickers
The questions about what (are they), how (do they work), intended purpose, and relevance to the plot have been on my Brandon-list for some time, just not close enough to the top of the list to have been asked yet. I think there are some tangential references from Brandon in the Theoryland database, but I don’t recall that there’s anything particularly significant there. I’d forgotten another reference to spark flickers a little further along in WoR. I don’t believe all this adds up to a red herring, but spark flickers may not be especially relevant in the big picture.
scm of 2814 @18
We need to know more about Bondsmith’s powers. Maybe 3 of them could pull off a mass action of that magnitude. I don’t want to believe any of the orders were cable “of great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.” I do want to believe that the Recreance was somehow a necessary evil and not just the KsR giving up because they felt abandoned when Tanavast died or betrayed by the Heralds. And how much do we trust the in-world WoR author anyway?
mnmama @25
That’s the way I interpret the epigraph. I keep circling back to the reliability of the in-world WoR author though.
@29 and 30
Below is the transcription from the Chicago signing. I’d totally forgotten about this in my comment @8. Did it really take the KsR several thousand years to figure out that the Heralds abandoned the oathpact, thereby precipitating the Recreance? I’m not buying it. The splintering of Honor as a trigger makes more sense to me. YMMV. BTW: The SA timeline I plucked from 17th Shard (well before WoR was released) shows the Hierocracy ended 500 years ago, FWIW.
Argent: In terms of timeline– So The Way of Kings and the Stormlight Archive takes place 1173-4 right now, how far ago, approximately, was the Recreance?
Brandon: So you– Let’s see– Heralds leave at what, 4500?
Argent: That’s what it says.
Brandon: So the Heralds leave at 4500 and we’re at 11–
Argent: So we are at 5500 years after–
Brandon: Yeah. So Recreance is more recent than late.
Argent: So… In the thousands–
Brandon: I’m going to have to pull out the timeline.
Argent: But it’s not like three hundred years ago.
Brandon: It’s not like three hundred years ago, but it’s also not like 4000 years ago.
Argent: Okay, so from the middle–
Brandon: The Hierocracy happened after and the Hierocracy was a couple hundred years ago. It’s longer than that even, it’s like five or six hundred years ago I think.
Great, thought-provoking comments this week. I’m only half-way+ through them, but all the way out of time. So, the usual caveats apply.
Edit–clarity.
And a correction to the WoB in @48
Gavilar was assassinated 4500 years after the oathpact was broken (TWoK prologue “title” page). Present-day Roshar is 4500, plus what, 5 or 6 years since Gavilar’s death, not 4500 + 1174.
If the Hierocracy did indeed end 500 years ago (or even if the WoB is more accurate) then well over 3000 years could have passed between the breaking of the oathpact and the Recreance.
@48: Correction, we know soldering is the highest Calling and farming is a close second in the case of darkeyes… Do lighteyes really farm? I am getting a sense Callings are not the same for lighteyes and darkeyes… After all, Adolin’s Calling is not soldering, but dueling… which implies there are more than one worthy Callings for lighteyes. I wish we knew more because I am not convinced there is nothing young Renarin could have done that was deemed worthy.
It seems, based on my reread, Renarin’s main struggles are with the Vorinism and not his family. It always seemed strange to me that Renarin would be completely broken over his failure to become a soldier while having such a supportive and loving family… What message does it send? If your kid has a disability, then all the love and support you can muster won’t matter one bit if he can’t achieve the unreachable ideal he put in his head he wanted? I cannot buy this. Loving and supportive parents can do loads for children for disabilities, which is why I never truly managed to jump into the Renarin’s band wagon. Now I am making a super huge effort to re-think him (because I need to invest myself into other characters) and I believe the link to Vorinism one of the commentator did early on in the thread might be the answer.
In many parts of the world, religion is a huge, gigantic part of people’s daily life and it truly shapes their belief. Since I live in a part of the world where religion kinda went into the sewer, it is a hard concept for me to grab, but I am not blind: it is many people’s reality. It is not so far-fetched to think little autistic Renarin was more impressed than the average kid by the whole “Calling” talk. He thus started to see his inability to become a soldier as not only a weakness, but a bad thing for his religion, so he got to the point where he would not accept any other path then this one. Sad.
In any advent, whatever broke Renarin is not his family. His family should have been enough to make him move through it rather unscathed. I thus blame the religion which is family failed to shelter him from.
@34: Welcome!
I had a response typed up, then kids needed something and it disappeared.
Kaladin’s PTSD has been discussed, but it has been awhile. Mostly in WoK, I believe. It has not been given much attention during the WoR reading. But yes, this trust issues are very understandable given his past. And the full impact of his trauma is too easy for those with no experience with the disorder to overlook.
Yet, like Syl, many of us wish he could see Dalinar for the good man that he is. We also want him to get out and live!
and kids need me again, so my comment is shorter than I wanted…
@8 and 36: Thanks for the welcome!! :)
Re: The Knights not knowing what would happen to their Spren: I’ve been giving this some thought and while I like the theory that the Spren may have fully agreed with the Radiants decision, something else has occurred to me. Unless I missed something, aren’t we assuming that both groups (Spren and Radiants) knew what would happen? Yes we and the spren know what can happen now, but we and they only know that BECAUSE of the Recreance. Unless something similar happened even further in the past, there may not have been any way for either Spren or Radiant to know what the result was gonna be. Also, it occurs to me that when the spren refer to “dying”, they appear to mean loss of personality and intelligence and not loss of existence. So if somehow the Radiants knew that breaking their oaths would affect their Spren, maybe they just assumed that Spren would be able to bounce back? The Radiant thought process may have been: “well this might hurt them, but it wont kill them…not really. They can bounce back and they’ll be fine”
Gepeto @50
Do you have a reference for the differentiation between light-eyed and dark-eyed Callings or is that just a theory? I don’t believe we have evidence either way about light-eyes actually farming. Farming as a Calling is touched on (TWoK) briefly between dark-eyes (Kal and friends) but that doesn’t mean low-, or even high-, ranking light-eyes don’t farm. Sebarial should add farming to his collection of industrial enterprises, if he hasn’t already. Back-integration could be profitable. Where does he get the cloth to produce uniforms? The thread has to come from some kind of ranch or farm back down the line.
@Ways 53: Alas, no I do not have a valid reference. As I was stating, I am assuming they may be different. After all, I do not quite see Renarin choosing farming as a Calling… I agree about the argumentation you are making about Sebrarial, though, in his case, I believe “entrepreneurship” would be a more valid Calling. After all, he is not the one directly farming the land. In fact, I doubt lighteyes above the 4th dahn ever farm lands… so I doubt farming is considered a worthy Calling for them.
There is also the fact “dueling” and “leadership” are most probably not available for darkeyes to chose from… Darkeyes do not duel… and they do not lead. In the same way, I also doubt a darkeyes woman could chose “Nature Science” as her Calling… Over all, I would say darkeyes Callings seem more practical whereas lighteyes are allowed to be more frivolous.
Based on all this, I am theorizing darkeyes Callings are not the same or just a subset of the lighteyes Callings. Young Renarin’s troubles may also have sprouted from the fact being so high in rank, valid Callings do not tap into his personal skill sets unless he was willing to become an Ardent.
@52
Regarding the issue of whether the Radiants knew they were killing their spren. According to the Epigraph of ch. 51, they had executed one of their own, someone named Kazilah, for ‘fraternizing with unwholesome elements’. Presuming this means elements of Odium, it would also mean oath breaking and thus killing the spren. In my opinion, they knew and that is why the spren also call it a betrayal.
Hello… I get preoccupied for a few days, and I have 50 new comments to catch up on! No complaints here. Just a couple of thoughts I wanted to toss in, though some of it may have been overcome by later discussion.
rhandric @3 – ::opens eyes very wide:: Oh, my aching brain! OF COURSE Renarin’s terror is in part due to his knowledge of what’s coming! It makes so much sense! He may not know all of what’s coming, but perhaps he knows enough to know that it’s bad news, and the war will take a terrible turn. Whether he saw a direct personal need to fight, or simply the knowledge that things would be bad and fighting will happen… But he may well believe that there’s far more riding on his ability to train than simply the chance to feel like a soldier. He may well be right.
It’s also possible that his joining Bridge Four will turn out to be important for reasons other than soldier-training – like, it may be vitally important later on for Bridge Four to see him as theirs. I can see a lot of potential ways this could be used. I wonder if in his Truthwatching he saw something that placed him as a member of Bridge Four, and now he’s terrified that if he doesn’t go about it right, it won’t happen, and then everything will be his fault. No pressure…
shairk @5 – Hello and welcome! I do like the idea of learning that the Heralds broke the Oathpact as being the root cause of the Recreance, though I wouldn’t bet the rent money on it at this point. It certainly would be seen as a significant betrayal. Its major drawback (like everything else I can come up with!) is that I can’t quite believe that the Radiants would knowingly lock their spren into sword-bodies unless they felt that the spren themselves had betrayed them… which circles back to the question of whether they knew what would happen. (I honestly can’t believe that they didn’t know about the link between the spren and the Blades.) It may be that they thought sticking the Blades in the ground and walking away would be highly symbolic, and that the spren would just mist away when they realized the KR weren’t coming back. Otherwise, it’s horrible.
jta068 @15 – Brandon was asked about Renarin’s box: he said it doesn’t have anything to do with Glys, it’s just a stimming tool. (For those unfamiliar with the term, “stimming” is short for “self-stimulatory behaviors” – it’s often a way of coping with overwhelming inputs, but is also a very common way to handle stress, nervousness, boredom, etc. Most of us do something, sometimes – biting our nails, doodling, tapping our fingers, bouncing a foot… but for some people it becomes a very important thing, to the point that it even gets in the way of interacting with life.) Anyway, the tone I got from Brandon’s response was that Renarin constantly playing with the box was another little hint to pick up on.
Idriana @34 – Hey, jump in more often! As noted by others, the high probability of PTSD has been discussed, but… I must admit, since I don’t have regular, close proximity to anyone suffering this, it’s not as quick to pop into my head as it maybe should be. I expect I get more frustrated with Kaladin than I would with those friends & family who, however rarely I may see them, I know have PTSD… but then, I know that part of the reason I get frustrated with Kaladin is that I know he’s in a story, and therefore I know this or that thing is important. We don’t get that IRL, because life doesn’t give us very many hints about what things we ought to focus on; in a book, if the author focuses our attention on it, we know it matters. :)
Not much more to contribute for now, but I thought I’d throw in a picture of what has been occupying some of my time lately:
I put in a lot of hours on that costume… but it was worth it. She loved it, and I felt like the costuming very nearly did justice to the Aradani ears. :)
Re: The discovery/event that caused the knights to abandon their spren
Half-supported theory: There is the epigraph somewhere in the Parshendi songs where the Listeners say they cannot provide to the spren what humans can; they are merely milk or broth to the humans’ meat.
Just being milk means that spren can change Parshendi forms and Odium spren can control them. What does the humans being meat mean? Do they inadvertently suck the life out of the Radiant, shortening their life or leaving them broken before their age? That doesn’t seem to match Windrunner ethos or the fact that the Radiants were around for hundreds of years. But what exactly are the spren getting out of the relationship BESIDES information? I can’t believe that’s the primary motive/benefit of most of them.
@57 I’ve been thinking about the “broth” vs “meat” line. I think it has to do with cognitive differences between Listeners and Humans. Not that Listeners are in any way lacking or inferior to humans from the cognitive perspective, but they are different. It may have to do with the way Listeners communicate. They don’t have a hive mind, but they do have a musical link that enables them to transfer information almost simultaneously over distance. This lends itself to a measure of conformity of thought. Humans are more isolated, our thoughts individual and sporadic. I don’t really know where I’m going with this, but perhaps this allows for more creativity?
Of course not all humans are creative, but ordinary humans would not attract a spren. I think it takes an especially intelligent, creative individual to attract a spren, because those individuals would project their cognitive enhancements onto their spren, allowing them to become more complex and powerful. Which, in turn, allows them to give their human magical abilities.
@57 I like the idea of the bond having some side effect, but I just can’t see the spren that are slivers/pieces of Honor harming humans in such a way and thinking it is ok.
I think the difference between humans and Parshendi bonding spren, is that while all original Rosharan lifeforms use a symbiotic bond, human bonds provide more sentience/conscious thought. Not once do we see Eshonai interact with her spren during her POV chapters, while spren bonded to humans interact fully with them in dialogue and with abstract thoughts.
We’ve also observed that as the bond between a human and a spren develops, the spren has more and more presence in the Physical realm. Could this be part of their perceived benefit?
Gepeto @54
Sounds good.
Kelek’s Breath @55
Good point about the spren calling it betrayal. I agree that the KsR must have known what would happen. But now that I’m thinking about it…did any spren other than Stormfather actually call it betrayal? Pattern said something to Shallan about her killing him. Don’t recall if Syl mentioned the “B” word to Kal–later in the chasms maybe?
Wetlandernw @60
Works for me.
Ways@61: Jasnah says in ch.1 of WoR that spren she has spoken to call it a betrayal. Can’t find any references made by Syl or pattern yet, but it’s tough searching through hardcovers. Pretty sure though that the sentiment is shared by all spren.
In Chapter 75 of WoR, Pattern tells Shallan, “You will eventually betray your oaths, breaking my mind, leaving me dead…” based on what he knows of the Recreance. (Along with those items mentioned before.)
In TWoK, there’s nothing about the Radiants betraying the spren; there’s a LOT about the Radiants betraying mankind.
@18 Bondsmiths: I know of two possible, stormfather and nightwatcher that are larger than life spren, that seem to correlate to bondsmiths, as long as bondsmiths bond to larger than life spren. This seems the case because unless there are more stormfathers out there or he can bond more than one person, then there can be only one bondsmith. If this reasoning seems sound, would we know the third spren that would create a bondsmith bond?
Lurker @64 – It’s also entirely possible that all Bondsmiths bonded with the Stormfather. Just sayin’…
@65 That is my current theory. It seems that the only other option is one to bond with the Stormfather, one to bond with Preservation’s spren, and one to bond with Odium’s spren. The idea of a Radiant bonding to Odium doesn’t seem to work, so three of them bonded to the Stormfather makes the most sense to me.
Edited for typos.
Don’t forget the super spren that Axies the collector saw in WoK.