Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire. Today’s entry is Part 26 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 44 (“Jon”) and Chapter 45 (“The Blind Girl”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 44: Jon
What Happens
Jon greets Queen Selyse on her arrival at Castle Black respectfully, despite her initial disbelief that he is the Lord Commander. Selyse is accompanied by her daughter Shireen, the Queen’s Hand Ser Axell Florent, his fool Patchface, and fifty Queen’s Men, as well as Tycho Nestoris, a representative of the Iron Bank of Braavos. Jon is more interested in his arrival than the queen’s. As he escorts her to Melisandre’s chambers, Jon tries to convince Selyse that the Nightfort is not yet ready for her to go there, but Selyse is sick of Eastwatch and Cotter Pyke and shuts him down. They encounter the giant Wun Wun, to Selyse’s alarm, and though Wun Wun kneels to her, it almost comes to blows from her knights before Jon can diffuse the situation. Ser Patrek, one of Selyse’s knights, is disdainful of Jon keeping monsters from beyond the Wall as “pets,” and asks if he intends to do the same with the Others.
After Jon gets rid of Selyse and her entourage, he takes Tycho Nestoris back to his chambers. He learns that the Iron Bank, having found King Tommen’s court “obdurate” in repaying the Iron Throne’s debt to them, have decided to seek out Stannis instead and offer aid in return for more faithful recompense. Jon is amazed the Lannisters could be so foolish. He offers escort for Nestoris to find Stannis, in return for his three ships, and gold to keep the Watch supplied until spring. They haggle for an hour before coming to an agreement. Jon thinks of how the fleet he has assembled to go to Hardhome is still too small, but he cannot delay any longer. He wonders if Mother Mole and her people will be desperate enough to consent to rescue from the Night Watch. Jon asks whether Nestoris knows anything of Sam et al in Braavos, but Nestoris does not, and learns there are strange ships from the East in the narrow sea, with “queer talk of dragons.”
At dinner, Ser Axell Florent accosts Jon with demands to “have a look” at the wildling princess Val. Jon suspects he knows that Val is no longer at Castle Black, but evades admitting it outright, saying she is not available before quickly leaving. He is uneasy about the deal with Nestoris, but tells himself it is better to be in deep debt than dead. He reflects on the Iron Bank’s fearsome reputation when it comes to recalcitrant debtors, and thinks that the Lannisters’ refusal to pay Robert’s debts may have cost them the throne. He falls asleep debating whether to go with the fleet to Hardhome, and is woken by Mully, with the news that a highborn girl has arrived on a dying horse and is asking for him.
Excited, Jon hurries to see her, only to realize it is not his sister Arya, but Alys Karstark, who he has not seen since she was six years old. Alys tells him her uncle and/or cousin Cregan is chasing her, and entreats him not to let Cregan take her back to Karhold. Her brothers and father are dead, and Cregan’s father Arnolf intends Alys to wed Cregan, so as to take her birthright claim to Karhold from her. She asks for his help. Jon offers to write Stannis on her behalf, but Alys tells him her uncle will make sure Stannis is dead before he ever receives the message.
“Arnolf is rushing to Winterfell, ’tis true, but only so he might put his dagger in your king’s back. He cast his lot with Roose Bolton long ago… for gold, the promise of a pardon, and poor Harry’s head. Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter. So he cannot help me, and would not even if he could.” Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”
Commentary
Well, bloody hell.
So does this mean the “grey girl” Melisandre saw wasn’t Arya or Jeyne Poole? I think it does.
STUFF AND BOTHER.
Okay, totally new character, then, yippee. I mean, I’m glad Alys Karstark is hopefully not having to marry her – cousin? Uncle? Cousin-uncle? I’m not sure, her kinship outline was confusing – but this rather dashes my hopes that Jeyne is going to stop being in a Bolton-induced hell anytime soon, and I DO NOT APPROVE of this turn of events!
Bleargh.
And now Jon knows about Roose’s ace in the hole re: defeating Stannis. Though honestly, given the state of Stannis’s troops when we last saw them, I’m not sure Arnolf Karstark’s treachery is even going to be necessary, but maybe I’m underestimating his army’s ability to push on through total bullshit adverse conditions.
So, assuming that, the question becomes whether Jon is willing and/or able to warn Stannis about the mole in his company. As usual, I am not clear on the synchronicity of the timelines here, but if I assume that Jon’s arc is roughly congruent with Asha’s, then I’m not sure there would be time to get a messenger to Stannis from the Wall even if Jon wanted to warn him. Which he may not, depending on how far he feels like bending his Night Watch neutrality oaths on any given day.
Well, in any case, I hope he decides to try to warn Stannis, for pretty much the sole reason that anything that increases the chances of Roose and his hellspawn progeny dying horribly, and also Jeyne Poole getting rescued, is something I am probably in favor of.
And also, it would be cool if Asha survived too. And fine, Stannis too. Whatever.
Jon’s thoughts on the stupidity of the Lannisters (read: Cersei) ignoring their debt to Braavos were spot on, and I’m pretty sure they match the thoughts I myself had at the time when I read about Cersei’s decision to blow the Iron Bank off. But then, she was engaged in an entire smorgasbord of terrible decision-making by that time, so what’s one more, really? We’ll have to see whether Stannis has slightly more sense in this regard, but I have a feeling he will. Assuming he lives to have that sense, of course, which is not exactly a guarantee at the moment.
In other news, oh, haha, duh: Jon intends that it be him who sends a prophetic fleet of ships to rescue Tormund’s people from Hardhome. Clever, that. It’s an interesting chicken-or-egg conundrum to ponder, whether Jon would have come up with the idea to find ships to send to Hardhome if he hadn’t first heard the prophecy that the wildlings would be saved by just such a fleet. Either way, I hope it works.
Re: Axell Florent, I was initially confused by his appearance here, since I seemed to recall that Davos had shared a cell with Stannis’s ex-Hand back in Dragonstone, who was named Florent, and subsequently heard of his death by zealotry burning, but it appears that that was actually Axell’s brother, so… okay, then. I’m clearly not remembering that bit very well, which is probably not surprising given how long ago I read it.
So mostly I am left with the overwhelming desire to make jokes about how Axell wants to show Val his, his, his serpentine… which I am abruptly realizing is a nearly thirty-year-old reference, so at this time I would like to invite you all to get off my still-awesomely-metal lawn. Sigh.
ANYWAY, not that I know what that Val thing was about, other than Florent being a giant creepy creeper. Why is he so intent on clapping his greasy eyes on her? Is he just that desperate for a wife? I don’t get it.
Jon’s rooms behind the armory were quiet enough, if not especially warm. His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been.
Dolorous Edd is already gone? Woe! Where will I get my Eeyore quote fix now?
Chapter 45: The Blind Girl
What Happens
The blind girl wakes from a dream of being the night wolf and feasting on both animal and human flesh. She thinks that her list of names is the wolf’s prayer, not hers, for she is no one. Using her senses other than sight, she dresses and goes to breakfast. She smells the kindly priest enter. He asks who she is; she replies “no one,” and he calls her a liar. She is Blind Beth. He asks if she wants her eyes back, and she replies, not today. She reports on the things she’s learned, and he sends her to her duties. She thinks of the bitter-tasting potion she drinks each evening to keep her blind; the waif has told her that she will be blind until “darkness is as sweet to you as light”, or until she asks for her sight back, but the blind girl knows they will send her away if she does that, and is determined not to yield.
She reflects on the lessons she has learned since becoming blind, and how she has learned to hear and feel lies instead of seeing them, and gradually learned, through often dangerous trial and error, how to navigate the vast temple and her duties without being able to see. She knows all of the vaults below the temple now, and tends to the dead there. This day she is attacked by an assailant she cannot identify. She duels with him with her walking stick, but he defeats her, laughs, and disappears. She thinks that if she had her eyes she would beat him bloody.
The kindly priest has told her she would have been blinded as part of her training anyway, but her killing of the singer Dareon had accelerated that phase for her. She had told him she was not sorry for killing him, and the priest asked if she was a god, to decide who should live and who should die.
“All men must die. We are but death’s instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god’s powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?”
No, she thought. “Yes,” she said.
“You lie. And that is why you must now walk in darkness until you see the way.”
That evening she puts on her blind beggar girl costume and heads to the city, to an inn called Pynto’s. One of the inn cats comes to sit on her lap in her corner, and it seems to her that she can almost see the inn’s patrons through its eyes. She notes three Lyseni sailors from a galley called Goodheart, which had been forced to put in at slaver-free Braavos and subsequently seized at the docks for trafficking. The next morning she tells the priest about the slaves the ship was carrying, wildling women and children from a place called Hardhome, and how the sailors think the other ship made it back to Lys, and will return to Hardhome to get more slaves. Then she tells him she knows who has been hitting her, and cracks him across the knuckles. He winces and asks how she knew, but she fails to tell him about the cat who followed her home whose eyes she is seeing through. That evening her potion burns her throat like fire.
And come the morning, when the night wolf left her and she opened her eyes, she saw a tallow candle burning where no candle had been the night before, its uncertain flame swaying back and forth like a whore at the Happy Port. She had never seen anything so beautiful.
Commentary
OMG, Arya!
Who is not permanently blind! Yay! I had hoped (or, er, demanded) that this was the case, but it is awful nice to have it confirmed.
That said, I feel like this is really not an educational curriculum Congress would approve of. Or any governmental body that has even the remotest concept of anti-child abuse laws. But, you know. From adversity comes blah blah blah, or so I hear.
And it is ultimately to Arya’s great advantage, obviously, to learn to rely on senses other than sight. Human beings are overwhelmingly visually-oriented creatures, so any training which allows someone to bypass that bias has an automatic advantage over an opponent without similar instruction. So hurray for stunningly unethical ninja assassin teaching methods! I guess!
Other than possibly taking another level in badass, though, Arya still seems to be stubbornly clinging to her own take on what she is and is not supposed to do with her leet ninja assassin skillz. I can’t honestly say I think this is a bad thing. Arya has proven herself to be worryingly amoral sometimes, true, but even so I would still prefer her to be amoral (or not) on her own terms, than for her to succumb to the… er, differently amoral doctrine of her ninja assassin cult leaders.
Seriously, that whole discussion on why she was wrong to kill Dareon struck me as just nonsensical. There are plenty of legit reasons why she may have been wrong to decide to summarily execute the guy, but Kindly Priest’s reasoning seems to be that… well, I don’t even know what the criteria here is. He calls her out for judging Dareon to be deserving to die, but if they don’t judge their targets themselves, who does? Who decides who has to die and who doesn’t?
The people who pay them, perhaps? But if so, I’m really not getting how foisting off the decision onto third (and presumably biased) parties is any more morally acceptable than killing for one’s own reasons. In fact, it seems less morally acceptable. At least Arya owns that she made the decision herself.
But then, I’m still not sure whether these people are actually assassins for hire or not. If they aren’t, though, then I really have no idea how this whole deal works at all. Hopefully it will get explained at some point. I intend to continue to side-eye the whole operation with extreme prejudice until then.
In other news, Arya is apparently also taking a level in warging, which is both exciting and unnerving, for reasons which should be obvious. I also approve of her decision to keep the warging from her cult masters. Basically what I’m hoping for is that Arya will milk these folks for every last bit of badass training she can get from them, and then be like, “Ok thanks, later” and walk the hell away afterward and go back to doing Arya Stark-oriented things. I’m not terribly optimistic on my chances of getting that outcome, mind you, but that’s the one I’m rooting for.
Re: the Lyseni thing, wow, okay, so (once again assuming a congruent timeline) Jon’s rush to get the Night Watch fleet out to Hardhome was not fast enough, it seems, at least for some of the wildlings. Presumably it is now a race to see whether Jon’s ships beat the returning Lyseni there, and whether the wildlings end up refugees or slaves. I should hope my vote on which should happen will go without saying. Go, Jon, go!
But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman’s Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him. Even Jon would never know Blind Beth, I bet. That made her sad.
I bet you’re wrong, Arya. At least I hope so, for smushy sentimental sibling reasons.
And that’s that, in a hat, with a cat! Delight in your weekend, wouldja, and come on back next Thursday for Moar!
Mods, the link to the spoiler thread is to a MUCH older thread.
I’m sure the temple intended for Arya to learn to rely on senses other than sight. I doubt warging was the sense they had in mind.
@1 – thanks for letting us know, we’ll get it fixed ASAP.
It’s always bothered me that this Arya chapter appears in DWD, rather than FFC. I understand the publishing schedule, but Arya’s FFC chapters ending where it did made it into an artificial cliffhanger, whereas adding this chapter by itself would have turned it into an arc. //Even moreso if you add the last Arya chapter in DWD//.
It’ll never stop being oh so funny to me that the Lannisters (well, Cersei really) stopped paying their debts.
With Arya’s chapter you have now left the AFFC concurrent part of ADWD behind, Leigh, and it took only 45 chapters. ;-)
@@.-@. IndependentGeorge
I 100% agree. Martin’s reliance on false cliffhangers backfired for me as a reader, since from around the middle of ASOS, I just didn’t believe him anytime he put a character in peril.
Thank god we can stop talking about the “dying girl on a grey horse”. That particular misread vision of Melisandre’s was driving me nuts. Melly misinterpreted it, it wasn’t Sansa OR Arya or fake-Arya Jayne Poole. It was just Alys Karstark. Whoopee. And it wasn’t really news that her great-uncle was allied with Roose Bolton, either. My favorite part of the Jon chapter was Wun Wun, who just seems awesome.
I love, love, love, love, LOVE the Arya chapter. As I may have mentioned once or ten times, I love her chapters and all Braavos chapters. Arya learning to warg into cats has helped propel her training along, at the same time reinforcing her connection to her family (it seems like all the Stark kids plus Jon can warg their Direwolves, and we know Bran can now warg anything, and I assume Rickon might be able to as well, though I’m not sure. I don’t thin Sansa can, but then, she and Robb always had more of the Riverlands in them than their siblings).
Leigh- it was Arya DECIDING who to kill that was the problem. The priests are not looking to train just anyone in their methods of assassination. They will only train those who will obey their Order, and Arya killing Dareon was her taking the decision into her own hands. That’s how I read it, anyway.
So does this mean that Alys Karstark’s mother is also Jon’s mother? hmmm.
Ned, you bad, bad boy, you…
Yes, I took the whole lesson about killing Dareon to mean that when you kill on your own initiative, you are responsible for the morality behind that decision, whereas if you kill because some third party has decided that you must, then the moral responsibility falls on them and your hands are clean, because you are “no one”, just a mindless weapon in their hands.
Not saying that holds a lot of water, but I think that’s how I am interpreting it today.
Yes, I have also side eyed the Many Faced God’s adherents’ dubious claim to not judging who dies. My impression IS that they are basically assassins and that they don’t get their orders from some divine mandate. I mean, I get that he’s really pissed that she killed for her own reasons instead of being a ‘neutral’ assassin but…whatever. I don’t quite understand how their powers work either; it seems like it’s one of those tropes – perfect lie detection, etc. I am not sure if that is actually possible.
That “smushy sentimental” section you quoted is very interesting considering (roll over for potential spoiler) Martin originally intended for Arya and Jon to be in love with one another. SO glad he took another direction…
(Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoiler)
To me the Faceless Men’s issue with her murder of Daereon comes down more to the fact that killing a defector of the Night’s Watch was an indicator that she hasn’t given up on being Arya Stark.
@@.-@, It seems obvious to me that had nothing to do with a cliffhanger, and more about conveying the truth about Hardome, immediately after the story revealed Jon’s plan towards Hardhome.
@8. That too.
@9, She’s just become Daredevil
I’m going to white this out because I honestly can’t remember if this was discussed at this point in the book or not:
Isn’t the payment for getting a faceless man to kill someone taking your own life? I thought that was the implication. Not that it makes them less scary, but it certainly ties in with their religious beliefs more than just some random person paying them for a job.
Also, I know it’s theory, but they may have their own agenda beyond even that, what with Jaqen hanging out in Oldtown looking for keys that don’t belong to him.
It’s simple: No Black Sacrament, no legit assassination contract…
Wait…wrong fantasy world….
@12, We’re told they are enormously expensive when they consider hiring one for Dany, but I don’t recall that, though I suppose that would qualify.
@12. Ciella
There is at least one other possible talk of the price of a faceless man besides what Aeryl mentioned.
// So, if you assume that Euron hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon (which I do), and you also assume that Euron lied when he said that he lost his dragon egg overboard his boat (which I also do), then you can posit that it cost him a dragon egg to hire the assassin to kill Balon. I also believe that the group will do contracts, life for life. //
Little known fact; Ser Patrick’s character was added in because GRRM lost a bet with the guy who runs Pat’s Fantasy Hotlist. Had to do with football. Pat’s team beat GRRM’s so he got into the book. If you look at the description of what Ser Patrick is wearing, it may remind you of the Dallas Cowboys.
Leigh, all of Alys’ relations to the mentioned relatives is spelled out here or in previous books. Alys is the daughter of Rickard Karstark, who was the lord of Karhold, the Karstarks’ ancestral home, when the books started. Rickard had four children that we know of: Alys and three sons. Two of those sons (Torrhen and Eddard) were killed by Jaime Lannister just before he was captured at the Battle of the Whispering Wood. This left Harrion (Harry) as Rickard’s heir. Harry was captured at some point later in the war that I don’t remember and is currently a prisoner of the Lannisters. After King Robb cut off Rickard’s head for murdering the two Lannister boys that he had as prisoners, the title and lands passed to Harry, although he’s a prisoner so the best that does for him might be a more comfortable cell as he’s now a lord.
When Lord Rickard rode off to war he left Arnoff, his uncle (father’s brother) in charge of Karhold as castellan. Arnoff’s son Cregan is the Cregan Karstark who Alys says is chasing her. So technically, Cregan is something like a first cousin, once removed, but he’s of the same generation as her father Lord Rickard so Alys probably looks on him like an uncle.
As Alys has explained matters, Arnhoff has formally declared for Stannis hoping that the Lannisters will execute Harry. By the inheritance laws that apply in the North and most placed in the Seven Kingdoms, the title would then pass to Alys and she would become Lady Karstark. By marrying Alys to Cregan and keeping her a prisoner, Arnhoff gets to keep the power for him and his descendants. He just need Cregan to get her pregnant with a son. My personal speculation: after the kid is born, they can get rid of Alys if she hasn’t been taught her place by then…
@17, David
“My personal speculation: after the kid is born, they can get rid of Alys if she hasn’t been taught her place by then…”
They’ll have to kill her. So far we’ve learned two things about Northerners; 1) they never forget, and 2) the women are hard as nails.
@12 – I can’t remember, either, so:
//As I understand it, the ‘price’ varies depending on circumstances, but always involves a significant sacrifice. The waif’s father gave up 2/3 of his fortune plus his daughter’s life (who, like the second FM, entered into a lifetime of service rather than being killed). I don’t think we’ve been told any other ‘prices’, but my instinctive feeling is that there has to be a personal cost to the client, and that price is not necessarily (or even usually) money.//
“A girl, a queen, and a banker walk into a Wall…” — UNspoiled chapter heading
She could return to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris. Perhaps the Iron Bank would find some noble family to foster her. (…) Wherever she went, Arya would need silver, a roof over her head, someone to protect her.
HAHAHAHA oh if only you knew.
Jon worries about what Mel might do with Arya. Use her royal hemoglobin, don’t ya think?
Never underestimate the foolishness of a Lannister, Jon. Even the smart ones are prone to seriously non-sensible decisions, and Cersei isn’t among the smart ones.
“Dolorous Edd is already gone? Woe! Where will I get my Eeyore quote fix now?” I know, right?! GRRM is a cruel, cruel author.
Stannis and Selyse were always a match made in frozen Hell, which is where they’ve now literally ended up.
“Winter is coming / Lord Wyman is still fat / Please to put a penny in the Iron Banker’s hat…” – My belated contribution to the Podcast of Ice and Fire’s 2013 Christmas Filks.
Are ya ready for Arya?? No, you’re not! No one is ready for Arya. Even the man who calls himself “no one” was no longer ready for her when she started warging.
I, too, heart her Braavos chapters very much. Such a fascinating city/nation.
Anyone remember the AFFC reference to a blind HOBW acolyte Arya notices, said to be honing his non-visual skills? I wonder if Arya does.
Help me, Lord Commander. You’re my only hope!
Alys puts Jon in a difficult situation here. If he’s to follow the Night’s Watch vows, he can’t interfere with politics. But can he ignore her pleas for help? What kind of person would ignore someone like that? Of course, we know how Jon thinks so the outcome isn’t that hard to guess. He even says something similar when confronted with Ser Axell Florent: “What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?” …I guess it’s not that similar, but I wanted to put this quote here anyway.
Arya’s Sith training goes on. It was strange that they considered her killing Dareon a mistake, but this event forced her training to go faster. If going blind wasn’t a punishment, then why was she rewarded for breaking the rules? This doesn’t make much sense to me.
I checked back on A Feast For Crows, and I was surprised to find only three Arya chapters (The one where she arrives in Braavos, the one where she gives up her possessions – except Needle – and the one where she kills Dareon). Her arc is progressing pretty quickly, but I still don’t know exactly how she’s going to use all her skills. Sure, she has that list of people to kill, but then what? I don’t see “assassin for hire” as her future. At least I hope I don’t see that.
@@@@@ 4 & 6
I honestly don’t get all the hate for the cliffhanger endings, they never bothered me. It could be that I grew up reading comics (something that GRRM has also said, apparently he used to write letters to the Marvel editors, at least one of which got published on the letters page of The Avengers) which often end with some kind of cliffhanger that you have to then wait a month for the resolution of before yet another cliffhanger ending. Rinse & repeat, lol.
“From adversity comes blah, blah, blah” probably sums up ASOIAF for some readers. Every character faces great adversity, yet many of their stories have devolved into blah, blah, blah. Not a sentiment I strongly feel, though.
@17: I will never understand why the English-speaking people use the word “cousin” (second cousin) to refer to children of one’s great-uncle. Why is that not called an uncle or a “second uncle”? In my native language, incidentally, it’s called uncle, regardless of the degree of relation. A cousin is an equivalent of a sibling but once removed in relation, then twice removed etc., right? (And incidentally, in my language a cousin is called literally “brother/sister by aunt/uncle”. There are people, especially those close to their cousins, who shorten it and just call their cousins “my brother/sister”.) What Cregan is to Alys is an equivalent of uncle, but once removed. So why is that cousin, too? Shouldn’t Alys’ “second cousins” be Cregan’s children, if he has any?
So never figured out how to white out here so will just say this … could someone send me to where we hear the talk of the price for the faceless men because um yeah…I don’t remember ever thinking it was THAT high. As for the morality of their order…I expect it is something like they are not deciding nor are the people they are paid by but the God by letting them kill them. Also remember they think of death as a gift AND allow people to choose to take their own life which some would see as immoral. Also not saying that holds much water but morality is really all opinion so doesn’t need to. The being no one I think more is about really learning to take on a new identity which you can’t do if you still think of yourself as anyone. The moving up of the training was about her loosing more of herself to think of herself really as no one – interestingly I think it moved up her warging as it forced her to rely on it. Always wondered if the face persons power was thus somehow related to warging … but not sure GRRM puts that much thought into his magic systems.
I will never understand why the English-speaking people use the word “cousin” (second cousin) to refer to children of one’s great-uncle. Why is that not called an uncle or a “second uncle”?
Well, obviously, there’s no logically perfect way of doing it, but English takes the view that you want to be able to unambiguously distinguish between three categories of relative:
direct ancestors/descendants, who are n(grand)(mother|father|son|daughter) where n is any whole number including zero;
siblings of direct ancestors or direct descendants of siblings, who are n(great)(uncle|aunt|niece|nephew);
and everyone else, who is (nth)(cousin)(x removed) where n is a number from 1 to aleph and x is a number from zero to aleph, with n indicating the grade of the last common ancestor (let “grandparent” = 1) and x indicating the number of generational levels difference.
If you called the son of your great-uncle your “uncle” that would be ambiguous because you use the same word for the brother of your father. English reserves “uncle” for “brother of a direct ancestor”.
Calling the son of your great-uncle a “second uncle” might also be confusing, because what do you call the grandson of your great-great-uncle? Your “third-great-uncle?”
And if anyone is wondering “why is English so monomaniacal about being able to unambiguously describe different degrees of kinship”… haven’t you read the post? :)
@11 Aeryl
“She’s just become Daredevil.”
Or Catwoman. Carewomil?
I think the whole ambiguity about when its ok to take a life is right to be senseless. They are a religion after all, they require contradictions by definition I think.
M. Weintraub @30, is your name a Hyperion reference? If so, kudos.
@25 Annara Snow: Because of history and etymology?
@32 – What have bugs got to do with it?
@33 Well it obviously bugs Annara.
@@@@@14. Aeryl
By LF, whose manipulation of the finances of KL was Madoff like, as Tyrion noted. On the other hand we have the Waif, whose father gave her to the temple to kill his wife I irc, so it’s not always about money. LF may be wrong, as he is a finance guy and simply thinks in those terms or lying because they would ask for a huge amount of wealth from a King, and his house of cards could never come up with that money at all.
@25 – This video does a pretty good overview of the family tree in general, with specific attention to cousins, second (etcetera) cousins, and cousins X times removed in its latter half. I found it pretty interesting, since I was never sure about the subcategories of cousins before watching it. Out of curiosity, what is your native language, if you don’t mind my asking? I’ve never heard of that way of categorizing uncles and cousins before.
Here’s a song I thought might be relevant to the subject at hand:
(4-minute mellow and serene intro)
Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air
And deep beneath the rolling waves on labyrinths of coral caves
The echo of a distant time comes willowing upon the sand
And everything is green and submarine
And No one showed us to the land
And No one knows the where or whys
But something stirs and something tries
And starts to climb towards the light
(riff that may or may not have been plagiarized for Phantom of the Opera)
Strangers passing in the street by chance two separate glances meet
And I am you and what I see is me
And do I take you by the hand and lead you through the land
And help me understand the best I can
And No one calls us to move on
And No one forces down our eyes
And No one speaks and No one tries
And No one flies around the sun!
(14-minute solo. A lot happens here)
Cloudless everyday you fall upon my waking eyes
Inviting and inciting me to rise
And through the window in the wall come streaming in on sunlight wings
A million bright ambassadors of morning
And No one sings me lullabies
And No one makes me close my eyes
And so I throw the windows wide
And call to you across the sky!
(outro)
P.S. And with this chapter we reach the first (and only) character to have a POV chapter in every book! What an accomplishment! Now, can you tell which characters have appeared so far in every book? (with or without POVs)
@33: Uh…etymology, not entomology.
Etymology is about the origin of words. Entomology is about bugs.
Leigh, the guy in the cell with Davos in A Storm of Swords was Alester Florent, Axel’s elder brother and then Lord, who was Stannis’ Hand of the King when he went behind Stannis’ back and send a letter to Tywin, offering surrender and Shireen’s hand in marriage to Tommen. Stannis condemned him for treason, which is why he was in prison and why he was going to be executed anyway – Stannis just found a way to kill two flies with one stone by letting Melisandre burn him instead of chopping his head off. When people said that Melisandre burned a man on Dragonstone for good wind and safe arrival north of the Wall, that’s who they meant. (You were worried at the time that it was Davos.) Alester was an opportunist just like Axel (he was first for Renly, then after his death switched to Stannis and immediately accepted the religion of R’hllor, he even lectured Courtney Penrose about it in A Clash of Kings when Stannis came to collect Edric Storm), just a lot more hapless, while Axel is a bigger asshole. Axel was the one who was introduced when he threw his brother in prison and later threatened Davos, telling him to support Axel to be the new Hand of the King. He also suggested to Stannis that they should kill and robb the people of an island whose name I now can’t remember, because their lord had sworn allegiance to Joffrey after being captured at Blackwater. So, yes, Axel Florent – always a major asshole. Also, a liar, because he claimed to have seen visions in the fire that told him he would become Hand, but I’m pretty sure he was just BSing.
The reason he is so interested in Val is most likely because, like many of the mainstream Westerosi, he wrongly believes Val to be a wildling “princess”, because he just can’t understand how the free folk society works.
@7:
How do Robb and Sansa “have more of the Riverlands in them than their siblings”? What does that even mean, “having Riverlands in them”?
Sansa has never started warging because her wolf died shortly after they had bonded. And they definitely did bond. Robb most definitely bonded with Grey Wind and Grey Wind often showed Robb’s suppressed feelings of anger (as when he was arguing with Catelyn in Storm and GW started growling at her). We don’t technically know if he warged GW – he may have, without being aware of it). The first Stark child who started warging was Bran (as far as we know – we don’t know what’s going on in Rickon’s head, but he’s unlikely to have begun before Bran), and that was in the second book. Jon started warging afterwards, and only after Bran had awakened his warg senses in a dream, and Jon wasn’t even aware of what he was doing. He also was never able to control the warging, like Bran does. Arya started warging Nymeria even later and also in dreams, and this chapter with the cat is the first time she’s not only warged anyone else except Nymeria, but also the first time she’s controlled it.
I guess they all must have a lot of Riverlands in them, since none of them were warging at the time Lady died.
@8: What? Oh, you mean because Mel thought Alys was Jon’s sister. Well, I don’t think Mel saw Alys in her vision with an inscription on her forehead that said: “I am Jon Snow’s sister”…
Yes, Mel has a problem with interpreting her visions, that has already been established.
@12: The price for hiring a FM is high, but it does not have to be your life. Or else I’m sure they wouldn’t have many clients! King Robert and his Great Council certainly did not think any of them would need to die in order to hire a FM to assassinate Dany.
@32, 33, 34, 38: LOL, and I was just wondering “Wait, what bugs? There is no mention of bugs in post 32, has it been edited?” And no, it doesn’t bug me… I just find it interesting and a little perplexing, like “this is a cousin, and then this completely different thing is a cousin, too”. I guess the explanation that “cousin is every relation that’s not a parent, sibling, grandparent or other ancestor, child or other descendant, uncle/aunt or great-uncle/great-aunt” works. But it’s not like a first cousin is a more distant relation than a great-uncle? Or is it? I don’t know.
Funny, my mother always used to tell me jokingly when I was little “You’ll be an etymologist one day!” because I always asked things like: “Why is this called this way? Why do we use this expression?” I’m a translator, so… close enough?
In any case, Alys seems to agree with me because she calls Cregan her uncle, and don’t see why it would be strange for her to do that – he is the son of her great-uncle, not the son of her uncle. If a son of her uncle is her cousin, then the son of her great-uncle is… also a cousin? Confusing.
@36: Serbian, or Serbo-Croatian, or whatever the kids call it nowadays.
I have two relatives of the exact same degree of relation as Cregan is to Alys (but we get along much better ;) ) and whenever we needed to describe our relation to someone I’d say they were my “aunt” and “uncle” because that’s what it is technically called in our language, but this always felt strange – but only because they are just 8 and 3 years older than me, respectively! We used to spend a lot of time together and play when I was little. This is why I only call them “aunt” and “uncle” jokingly. In this case, the equivalent of “second cousins” would feel more natural, but that’s only because of the situation that’s pretty unusual, because their father (my grandmother’s younger brother) married at 49 and had children in his 50s, while my grandmother married at 19 and had my mother at 25. That’s hardly typical. Cregan being much older than Alys seems much more a typical situation. He is at least 35 years older than her and the son of her grandfather’s brother, so I don’t see anything surprising about her considering him an uncle. “Cousin” usually implies the same generation. (Although I also happen to have first cousins who are over 20 years older than me! That’s because their mother is my aunt, my mother’s half-sister who is older than her by 11 years, and who had them in her 20s, while my mother had me when she was 37.)
(Incidentally, the English language is, on the other hand, much more logical when it comes to the lack of double negative. We, on the other hand, must use double negative, it’s the only grammatically correct version. So, “I don’t see anything” would literally be “I don’t see nothing”. Or you can have a triple, quadruple etc. negative, e.g. “I have never seen anything like that anywhere” would literally be “I haven’t never seen nothing like that nowhere”. I’ve always found that illogical: if you “don’t see nothing”, shouldn’t that mean you see something?)
Anyway, someone, I think it may have been on Westeros (or maybe even here?) has coined the word “Karhole”: a Karstark asshole. The late and unlamented Lord Rickard was one, and Arnolf and Cregan are two more, even though they are more of totally ruthless and somewhat cunning Karholes, while Rickard was the ruthless but incredibly stupid Karhole type. And not only did he murder children/prisoners of war for a completely stupid reason (dude, your sons were killed in battle! That’s what often happens when people go to war!), he was also a “wonderful” father: Alys’ marriage prospects would have been just as grim if her father had survived. Remember when he promised his daughter’s hand in marriage to whoever killed Jaime Lannister? Think about it: Alys could have ended up married to Vargo Hoat! Good thing she is taking the matters into her own hand. While the dudes from her family we got to know have all been Karholes, she’s another awesome Northern lady.
The newest spoiler thread: http://www.tor.com/2015/05/15/spoiler-thread-for-a-read-of-ice-and-fire-part-8
@36 – Wow! I gotta give a +1 for use of the CGP Grey video; I’m glad I wasn’t the only one thinking of him when #25 brought up the whole “why are they cousins and not aunts or uncles?” thing.
But it’s not like a first cousin is a more distant relation than a great-uncle? Or is it? I don’t know.
Actually they are exactly as close as each other! Your first cousin (I am presuming here that you are a Serbian human; if you are a Serbian ant, bee or other eusocial hymenopteran, please ignore what follows) is no more distant from you than your great uncle. r, the coefficient of relatedness, is:
0.5 to your parent
0.25 to your grandparent
0.125 to your grandparent’s brother (your great-uncle)
0.25 to your parent’s brother
0.125 to your parent’s brother’s child (your first cousin)
If you are in fact a bee (or ant, termite or similar), then the equation is complicated by your (excuse me for being personal) haplodiploid arrangement for sex determination, which makes r different depending on whether relatedness is through the male or female line. Assuming you to be a female bee (there are, I think I am right in saying, no male bees currently commenting on tor.com) then r is:
0.5 to your mother (the queen bee)
0.375 to her sister
0.1875 to her daughter, your first cousin
but
0.5 to your mother
0.25 to your grandmother
and only 0.0625 to her brother, your great-uncle.
Working out your relatedness to bees on your father’s side of the family may be left as an exercise for the reader.
@39 No, I think Entomology is about talking trees.
@Annara:
I’m not so sure about that. Why would she say the grey girl is Jon’s sister? I think it’s reasonably safe to assume that she’s never actually seen either of the Stark girls, so she wouldn’t have any basis for mis-identifying their faces.
What we do know about the way she mis-interprets her visions is that she asks R to “show her a vision of AA”, and she sees Snow and thinks R is playing with her, and we readers can say “Uh, dumb ass, Jon IS AA, duh!”
So this could be the opposite. She sees Alys, and R provides the sub-text that this is Jon’s sister. Then she gets there and it’s not Arya, or Sansa, or even fake-Arya, and people think she got another one wrong, but what if it’s the literal truth? Maybe Alys actually is biologically Jon’s half-sister.
I’m liking it, myself.
@41, Per Catelyn in AGOT, she observed that about Robb and Sansa, that they looked more like Southron people, and even preferred the worship of the Seven to the Old Gods. She obviously felt that they aligned with her Southron sensibilities than Ned’s Northern ones.
@45 No, no, that’s Entology!
On Sansa – we haven’t seen her skinchanging anything for certain, but she seemed to feel very close to that old dog at LF’s place in The Fingers. If she was in close proximity to the same animal for an extended period of time, I think it’s very possible she’d start having dreams of running on four legs.
On cousins – there are two different ways of using that term. One is “anyone descended from an aunt, uncle, great-aunt or great-uncle” (with optional added greats). The other is “relative of the same generation who is more distant than a sibling.” Officially, English subscribes to the former – but what people use colloquially varies. In my native tongue, Swedish, we have separate terms for second, third, and fourth cousins, but hardly anyone uses them anymore, at least where I live. Maybe it’s different in rural areas where people may be more likely to actually know their second cousins. We do have a term for your cousin’s child (it translates as cousin-child) so no “first cousin once removed” for us. We don’t really have a technical term for the reverse that I can think of, though… I’d just say “my mother’s/father’s cousin.”
@44 I never put it together that all female bees get all their father’s genetic material – but of course they do, otherwise each generation would have less! Hah. That’s almost as good as the reproduction pattern of the Strongyloides.
@47: No, Catelyn observed that all of her children except Arya looked like her and the Tullys, rather than the Starks. Arya also felt plain and a bit like an outsider because, as she observed, Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all had their mother’s beautiful auburn hair, cheekbones and blue eyes, while only she and Jon had the long Stark face, brown hair and grey eyes.
And I’m pretty sure Catelyn never observed anything about their religious practices, or made any distinction between Robb and Sansa and the others. Especially not in terms of being Northern and Southron. And why would she? Rickon was too small to show any preferences, but Bran’s big dream was to be a knight. That’s as Southron as it gets. There are very few knights in the North, it’s a Southron custom intrinsically connected to the Faith of the Seven.
@47 Entology? I thought that was about pre-packaged sushi lunches?
Here’s the thing, Arya never told them about all them she had killed up to that point. She didn’t tell them about, at least:
1) Stable boy
2) At least one man in the fight with Loch when Yorren died (with an axe)
3) By proxy, 2 directly and a bunch indirect in Harrenall
4) The guard in Harrenhall
5) Squire and the Tickler
You see, what they saw was a very sad, diligent, and not stuck on her nobility 11 year old girl. She will scrub steps until they are shiny, she will help in the kitchen, or whatever, no thought of her rights as a noble, but she is a noble and can act noble, she is an incredible talent for them, but could she kill? They didn’t know. While they were not pleased she went off book, she was not really punished, though they framed it that way to teach her a lesson because she answered a very important question for them. Could this extremely valuable 11 year old actually kill a man? Yes.
Did we need a paragraph with Jon thinking where to send Arya for her to be safe, when we already know where she is? Though it could have been put there for ironic reasons.
About Assasin cult – they kill those who pay them, but it seems their prices are so high that going to them means you are hell-bent on your wish and thus the wish can be granted.