Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we went back in time to see Li’l Shallan enjoying an afternoon with the two brothers she was able to help, and redeeming the one she couldn’t. This week, we get to have a lot more fun as grown-up (ish) Shallan goes on her first real date with Adolin, and they chat about poop. Heh.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 49: Watching the World Transform
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: The Storm Cellar!
Symbology: Pattern, Palah, Chach
IN WHICH Shallan meets Adolin for their first date, and is wigged out to realize that they’re supposed to sit and drink and watch the highstorm’s approach; she is repeatedly dazzled by his smile, his hair, his smile, his cologne, his smile, his laugh, his eyes, his smile (yeah, a whole lot of dazzling going on up in here); her efforts to play the appropriate part in the courtship game are derailed by her innate curiosity; Adolin responds to her accidental candidness by also becoming more genuine; bodily functions and Shardplate make for an embarrassing mix; everything about the conversation goes askew; the possibility of chasmfiend ranching arises; Shallan takes the excuse to segue into her desire to get out onto the Shattered Plains; Adolin explains current affairs; the highstorm approaches, and Shallan finds herself mesmerized instead of terrified; they finally duck into shelter with a wasted six-second lead before the storm hits; Shallan retires to the women’s sitting room.
Quote of the Week
“Well,” Adolin said, “if you must know, an old adage on the battlefield teaches that it’s better to be embarrassed than dead. You can’t let anything draw your attention from fighting.”
“So…”
“So yes, I, Adolin Kholin—cousin to the king, heir to the Kholin princedom—have shat myself in my Shardplate. Three times, all on purpose.” He downed the rest of his wine. “You are a very strange woman.”
Yup, I still think it’s one of the funniest lines in all of fantasy literature.
Commentary
This was such a fun chapter to read, and such a hard chapter to write about! The conversation between Adolin and Shallan, replete as it is with Shallan mentally drooling over Adolin’s smile, eyes, etc., is entertaining and delightful, and there are so many exchanges that I’d love to copy… but you can read the chapter for that.
Aside from the shipping, which was SO much fun, the thing I found most compelling in this chapter was a development in Adolin’s character. Prior to this, even though we’ve been in his head, we’ve mostly seen his character through the eyes of Kaladin and Dalinar. Having said that, I must admit it’s a very odd statement. But I stand by it; his POVs have primarily focused on either his father or a battle. While this shows us his love, and respect for Dalinar, and is a superb perspective for a battle/duel scene, there’s not a lot about his actual motivation. The primary exception is that we’ve seen from the inside that he is intensely loyal, particularly to his father and brother.
So far, we’ve been given the mostly-external perspective of Adolin as a self-confident, even arrogant, prince; a fighter and duelist preoccupied with fashionable appearances and social acceptability. He’s not one to follow the stupider versions of “vanity-before-sanity” fashions, but he has a good sense of style and he does the things appropriate to his station in Alethi society. Dalinar thinks of him with great affection, but considers him somewhat hot-headed and overly concerned with the opinions of others; Kaladin merely thinks him spoiled, arrogant, and shallow. In either case, we’re not shown a man of particular depth.
This chapter gave me a whole different perspective. Back in Chapter 37, we got a hint, with this reaction when he saw Shallan for the first time:
Gorgeous red hair. There wasn’t a single lock of black in it. A slender build, so different from the curvaceous Alethi. A silken blue dress, simple yet elegant. Pale skin—it almost had a Shin look to it—matched by light blue eyes. A slight dusting of freckles under the eyes, giving her an exotic cast.
The young woman seemed to glide through the room. Adolin twisted about, watching her pass. She was so different.
Here in this chapter, everything changes (except that it’s from someone else’s POV again). At the beginning of the chapter, both of them are trying to be “proper” about this courtship gig; the theme is repeated again and again: the fashion folio, oversized so as not to be mistaken for a woman’s book. References to things they’re “supposed to do.” Act refined, because Adolin will expect sophistication. Act poised, elegant. This winehouse is the latest fad. Courting advice: “get him to talk about himself.” “He looked at her, expectant.” “…feeling as if she were filling an expected role.” “…dutifully looking at him with widened eyes.” “He paused…” “…what she hoped was a breathy, adoring voice.” “He paused again. She was probably supposed to ask what happened next.”
And then it all breaks loose.
“What if you need to poop?” she asked instead.
BAHAHAHAHA! The funniest part is that he starts to answer the questions she was “supposed” to ask—the question they always ask—before it registers what she in fact said. And then he answers her: honestly, bluntly, if somewhat reluctantly, and admits right out loud that “not going the way it’s supposed to” is kind of refreshing.
In rereading now, I was struck with the realization that honestly, he probably didn’t care all that much about fashion, and fads, and all the social hoo-hah. He just did what was expected of him (even if it was getting boring), because he had nothing else of great interest to do, no particular desire to rebel, and not much to rebel against anyway. He created an appropriate persona that more or less fit his interests and was suitable for his station, and lived in that persona, acting the part, dutifully following the script… until Shallan came and knocked him sideways.
“…Do you know how many times I’ve told that story about saving the plateau run?”
“I’m sure you were quite brave.”
“Quite.”
“Though probably not as brave as the poor men who have to clean your armor.”
Adolin bellowed out a laugh. For the first time it seemed like something genuine—an emotion from him that wasn’t scripted or expected. He pounded his fist on the table, then waved for more wine, wiping a tear from his eye. The grin he gave her threatened to bring on another blush.
Suddenly, they are in a real conversation. They talk about chasmfiends, and the possible result of the continued hunts; he outright acknowledges that he’s not as dense as he pretends to be. They talk about the Parshendi, and his dueling; she admits that she is terribly ignorant of the politics, because all the information she had from Jasnah was badly outdated. She asks him to tell her some of what is going on…
And he does. He tells her the whole story: Dalinar’s visions, the betrayal by Sadeas, their salvation by the bridge crew, his current quest to win as many Shardblades as possible through dueling. Letting it all out seems to lift a weight from him, and she finds herself wanting desperately to help him. Those paragraphs confirmed it: I am resolutely on this ship. They have each been bearing burdens, for their families and for the world, and they have been acting the parts given them. Finally, here in this unlikely betrothal, they have each discovered a fitting partner: they’ve found someone to laugh with, to relax with; someone with whom they can be open, honest, natural; someone who brings out the best in them.
I love this chapter.
Stormwatch
Heh. Literally: Stormwatch. This is the same day as Chapter 47, of course. But I shall take advantage of the Stormwatch header to quote something fascinating:
The stormwall.
A huge sheet of water and debris blown before the storm. In places, it flashed with light from behind, revealing movement and shadows within. Like the skeleton of a hand when light illuminated the flesh, there was something inside this wall of destruction.
…
Life. Something lived inside that storm, something that no artist had ever drawn, no scholar had ever described.
I’ll… just leave that there for you to consider.
Sprenspotting
In conjunction with the aforementioned stormwatching, “Windspren zipped in tiny rivers of light overhead.” Pattern is nowhere to be seen–even by Shallan—during their conversation, though she hears him humming as the storm approaches. What is that supposed to mean?
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Greatshells ahoy! This was an intriguing excursion into the biology of local fauna. Shallan postulates that chasmfiends, rather than being hunted as they’d always been, are now being essentially harvested, resulting in a decrease in the overall population. Oddly, rather than suggesting that they should stop, she instead draws the conclusion that perhaps the greatshells could be raised like chulls, breeding them and harvesting the gemhearts in entire batches. Greatshell ranching FTW! Might have problems with poachers.
Heraldic Symbolism
Palah and Chach preside over this chapter; the scholar and the guard—or learned/giving and brave/obedient. I’d like to hear your thoughts on their relevance here, because all I’ve got is Shallan going all biology-teacher on Adolin, and his bravery in battle—or perhaps that of his armorers.
Words of Radiants
These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.
–From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10
This is from the same page as the epigraph of Chapter 47. The tone of this one, combined with what we know of Shallan’s own “strange… mnemonic abilities,” makes me think that the narrator may not be completely unbiased. So maybe the mistrust of the Lightweavers I got from the previous epigraph is more appropriately directed at the writer of this book?
Shipping Wars
Shallan and Adolin! Uh… we pretty much talked about that already.
Just Sayin’
This isn’t so much in-world phrasing, but in-world fashion. Believe it or not, it only just now occurred to me that the folio Adolin is examining gives us the visuals for the “Lift” interlude, which we’ll get to in…um… a couple of months or so. Okay, I’m slow sometimes.
There’s a lot in this chapter I didn’t address. Navani, the parshmen, Shallan’s drawings, the yu-nerig, thoughts on Jasnah and Tyn and Kabsal, the reactions of the Alethi women to Shallan’s presence… Please feel free to bring it all up in the comments! There’s plenty to keep us busy until next week, when we follow Adolin into the men’s sitting room for some frustrating confrontations during the storm, and then return with him to the Kholin complex for the aftermath.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Currently her thoughts are focusing toward preparations for her first-ever con experience: WorldCon 73, also known as Sasquan 2015. Anyone else planning to be there?
She called the shit POOP!
Great chapter, great characters, great relationship.
I’d be extremely curious if Navani could make a fabrial that is effectively a super strong transparent human sized egg, that could survive highstorm power. So that you don’t have to be tied to a roof to experience the full effect of being in the middle of the storm.
Alternatively, I suppose you could just put on a shardplate and let yourself get rag-dolled around for a few hours. While Shallan wouldn’t be able to draw while wearing plate, I’m sure her memory would let her capture whatever she perceives in the storm to draw it afterwards.
There are more examples of learned and giving, but is on an emotional/personal level. Shallan and Adolin both learn about each other. The true personalities, not the one they are supposed to present in society. For example, Adolin is supposed to appear noble on dates. Hence the expectation that he tells stories where he is very brave. However, reciting these stories does not allow him to express his true sense of self-deprecating humor and his curiosity. The humor in the way he admits that he went in his Shardplate and his curiosity in how he responds to Shallan’s biology lesson. A typical Brightlady is supposed to be fashionable and ask questions that make her date look brave. Yet Shallan asks the “dirty” questions – those not in the history books. She also admits that she is not very cultured: how to select the wine and all.
The bravery in this chapter is not limited to Adolin (trying) to retell his story. Other examples include Shallan and Adolin foregoing the conventional dating tactics and “letting their guard down.” IMO, it is this letting of their internal guard down that causes them to appreciate the other more and be more comfortable with the other. Remember, neither chose each other initially. The were “matched” up by adult figures in their lives: Jasnah for Shallan (who at that point in time was figuratively Shallan’s guardian; if not guardian in fact) and Dalinar and Navani for Adolin (his father and his oldest female relative). I understand that each saw the other as physically attractive. But would they have done so if they were not officially “matched” up first? Maybe, maybe not. Shallan also expressed bravery when she stayed as long as she did at the railing. When she first realized that they were there to witness the beginning of the Highstorm, she seemed somewhat frightened. Shallan had never been this close to a Highstorm before. Growing up, her manor had always been properly secured. By the end, Adolin had to practically drag her away to the designated shelter.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I don’t agree that we knew little of Adolin before this chapter. I took his continued thoughts about his father and Sadeas to reflect his selfless nature, and his ability to hold on to grudges. Adolin rarely thinks about his own welfare, he is ultimately selfless but relentless in protecting those he loves. Prior to meeting Shallan, his primary character fault was his taste in women, which Jasnah and Shallan seem to have fixed…
But what of the chafing?!
Like you, Alice, I love this chapter. It really shows how even if part of a story is somewhat cliched, strong execution can still make it awesome. I groaned at the one line you pointed out, “She was so different!” I was thinking, “Really? She’s not like all the other [preferred potential romantic partners]?” But the basic high school romance setup develops into power armor poop jokes followed by excellent character and world development. Brilliant!
And apparently Roshar doesn’t have BodyGlide. Poor devils…
I recall laughing out loud during this chapter, which was probably inappropriate although I don’t recall where I was. Probably on an airplane. Anyway, I liked the idea of Adolin and Shallan before this chapter but this sealed the deal. I know that during the first date I went on with my now wife, we ended up laughing (a lot) at some very similar humor to this. (She’s an elementary school teacher. They know all the good poop jokes.) The ability to laugh together like that, to be that comfortable with each other so quickly, is in my mind a good sign that these two characters belong together. They’re a match.
Palah and Chach make perfect sense to me. Shallan is a scholar at heart. She’s always learning and studying no matter what situation she’s in. Adolin is a guardian. He protects what he loves no matter what the cost to himself. Although now that I think about it, Shallan has a lot of the guardian in her as well. I can’t say that Adolin has much scholar, at least outside of fighting and duels, but that’s OK.
Alice I love you. This was an amazing review for what is one of my favorite chapters in the entire series. The date was so delightful I fail to see how so many people could not ship Shallan with Adolin.
I absolutely adored how you you explain the many layers of Adolin Kholin. Myself, I have been advocating for the longest time on how Adolin is not the overly self-confident, slightly arrogant, fashion obsessed womanizer most readers still see. I have to praise Brandon for having brought up Adolin the way he did. Our first encounter with him tend to picture a shallow young man, brave, but not very bright, very angry and annoying for not believing his father right away. Readers automatically take him for arrogant and spoiled, especially after having read so many chapters of Kaladin depreciating Adolin’s persona. In fact, I have come to believe Kaladin’s unflattering portrait of Adolin is what most readers still retain of Adolin as many fail to read beyond it. I realize it may have been Brandon’s intention since the beginning as Adolin himself only let others see his “outside” persona and never his “inside” one. Even with Renarin, he safeguards his inner self.
With his POV and his long trailed of unexpected actions, we get to know who Adolin truly is: loving, loyal, caring, selfless, very sensitive a, curious and not so sure of himself… In other words, he doubts himself and his over-confidence which Kaladin mistakes for arrogance is nothing more than his own protection mechanism: the one where he projects the opposite of what he truly feels. In other words, Adolin wants to love and be loved: so he tries very hard to be what is expected of him such as to avoid showing his true self. If he gets rejected based on his outside persona, then his inner one is safe. However, if he gets rejected based on his inner one, then he hurts, because he is a sensitive person, here lay his most vulnerable trait. He keeps claiming he does not care about his failed courtships, he says so to Renarin, but he does care. He just cannot allow himself to care too much, because then, he’ll hurt too much. Simple. Brilliant and SO true for many people in real life.
So few people are able to analyse Adolin properly I have found as so few people catch on how he keeps on hiding himself. You did and it was brilliant, so thank you for this review. This chapter and your comment on how we see Adolin mostly through the eyes of Kaladin and Dalinar (which I absolutely agree with) makes me yearn for more Adolin POV. He is a worthy character on his own and totally deserves his place in SA.
Also, am I the only one who thinks Adolin sharing his “pooping” incident with Shallan is more relevant than Kaladin sharing his childhood traumas? I know the greater majority of people will strongly disagrees with me, but I keep feeling Adolin’s embarrassing body functions was a more intimate confidence than Kaladin’s ordeal… I know, everyone will disagree on this one, but still.. telling one horrific childhood stories demand some level of trust, telling about deep embarrassment involving number 2 and a Plate demand… to be at ease with the person. Adolin gave Shallan the perfect excuse for her to turn away from him, forever disgusted while Kaladin risked not much else than having to relive painful memories. Why do I keep feeling one is more significant than the other? And why do I feel the most significant confidence is not the same as everyone keeps bringing forward? I dunno, but the fact both Shallan and Adolin are able to obviously be so comfortable with each other, to respond so effortlessly to the other tells me they are the one true ship. However, most people tend to disagree as the Kaladin/Shallan ship is widely, immensely more popular than the Adolin/Shallan one. Sad.
On the side note, am I the only one who thinks Adolin is better to keep on wearing the Kholin army uniform than anything pictured on those drawings????
I’ve been waiting a long time–well, half of a large book and how many ever weeks of re-reads–to get to this chapter. For several reasons, not the least of which is that it feels so real. The shipping is extremely well-done, imho. Alice and the rest of you have it covered, not going there now.
Heraldic Symbolism
Expanding a bit on AndrewHB @2’s comment…perhaps Chana appears here b/c both Adolin and Shallan let their guard down during their date.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
This is the topic I’ve been waiting patiently to comment about.
Brandon, and Peter too, iirc, have both said nothing emerges from a Chasmfiend chrysalis; that it’s the final stage of the creature’s life cycle. Well, I’m confused. That’s pretty opposite of what we see in RL. I can accept the explanation b/c this is fantasy and doesn’t necessarily reflect RL, but I want to explore the topic further.
Brandon may have provided an Aes Sedai-type answer in that nothing emerges b/c the chrysalises are harvested for gemhearts, which kills the contained pupa. However, I don’t buy this explanation for several reasons. Rosharans most likely can’t have harvested every single chrysalis since the dawn of these life forms on Roshar. Plus, the way Brandon answered the question when I asked leads me to believe that it’s not what he meant. It came across as the end, lights out, fini; not as Brandon-being-sneaky.
Nevertheless, in this chapter we have Shallan and Adolin quite clearly discussing juvenile and adult chasmfiends, with the chrysalis stage in between. So what in the name of the Rosharan Almighty am I missing or misconstruing?
NB–I’ve assumed the Chasmfiend that Kaladin and Shallan dispatch in a few chapters to be an adult. Perhaps that’s not correct, but it doesn’t have much relevance to my question.
Help.
@6, Gepeto, while Kaladin harbored a superficial and jaundiced view of Adolin until late in this book, your promotion of Adolin’s ‘true’ character doesn’t ring true to me. While Adolin is loyal and loving to his family and caring about his men and ostensible friends, he harbors little of such feelings for any of the many eligible women he has dated. Were all of them so unworthy of his interest, or were they all disaffected by his attitude. In any case, he is definitely interested in Shallan who is exotic both physically and mentally. That romantic interest doesn’t translate into becoming more attuned to Shallan’s intellectual interests. His physical attraction and good nature may yet win her over completely, but I have some doubt considering who else might be available. Kaladin is less physically attractive, but shares Shallan’s intellectuality in the sense of both having keen and curious minds. She also reveals much more to him about herself in the later chasm episode than she has revealed to Adolin. This may be due to viewing Kaladin as a new friend with whom confidences can be shared, while being careful not to ‘spoil’ the budding romance with Adolin. Kaladin’s intensity may yet be a turn-off as it was for a young Navani vis-à-vis Dalinar, but in this book it is an attraction. How this budding triangle will play itself out is obviously in the hands of the author. The consequences of Adolin’s killing of Sadeas will undoubtedly have some effect on the relationship, but that, too, is at the author’s discretion.
@8: I think I may have badly expressed myself. I did not mean Adolin cared about the women in his previous courtships: it is quite obvious he didn’t, but he cared about the fact they relationship failed. There is a distinction to be made here. Whereas he seemed to have had little affection for any of those women, he wanted the relationship to work, for once and was puzzled as to why they kept failing. He said on multiple occasions how tired he was of never being able to keep a girl for more than a few days and how he wished for one courtship would actually develop into something more.
So far, he has refrained himself from thinking too much over the fact the courtships failed. It seems to me if he did, he’d only hurt himself as who can remain confident after being dumped by nearly everyone in Alethkar? So it is not care towards the women so to speak, but care towards the idea of a courtship. He hides the fact he is affected by their failure, but you are right in stating he is not affected by losing those women.
Adolin’s mind is more artistically inclined than Kaladin’s so I disagree Kaladin is a better fit. I also dislike the parallel between Navani/Dalinar as it assumes Adolin is the wrong choice. I also disagree Adolin is not interested in Shallan’s intellectual interests: he was quite interested in what she had to say. It is only when Kaladin started to made him pass for dumb, he gave up.
I feel I need to expand on the minds of Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin.
One of the most common argument to be made in support of the Kaladin/Shallan ship is to state Kaladin is much smarter and much more scholarly inclined than Adolin which would fit Shallan’s best. I generally disagree with this statement. When has Kaladin shown his mind was in sync with Shallan when it comes to scholarly interests? Kaladin, as a person, is not preoccupied by scholarly accomplishments, not at all, but he has been more educated than the average man which gives him greater general knowledge. He is interested in surgery, but only when it comes to saving someone: he did not ask to finish his formation when he could have. The only time we see Kaladin express anything pertaining to scholarly interest towards Shallan is when he asked about the moss. Adolin did not ask about the moss, but Adolin cannot ask about the most because the social convention states he is not supposed to be interested in his women pursuits. So Adolin does not ask and is effectively chased away by Kaladin mocking him is a rather cruel way.
However, during this very chapter, Adolin and Shallan have a very lengthy discussions on chasmfiends, a discussion into which Adolin was most interested in. A discussion that far out-stretched the little moss comment Kaladin made. Adolin was genuinely interested in Shallan’s discoveries, which highlights he is quite capable of sharing her interests, to discuss them, but more importantly, Adolin spontaneously commented on Shallan’s drawings. He exclaimed several times on how good they were. Did Kaladin say anything on Shallan’s porte-folio when she was drawing the moss? Nope. Nothing. He does not care about her drawings, but Adolin seems to be more naturally interested in those things.
What is Adolin not interested in? Engineering and how fabrial works. Navani’s works, which is why she calls him unsuited for scholarly pursuits. Navani tends to be narrow minded, so she dismissed her nephew on the basis he does not want to know how the lifting platform works. Luckily, Shallan is no engineer… Shallan’s scholarships is more geared towards grounded things: plants and animals which Adolin is able to share with. Then again, Dalinar does not care about engineering either and did not want to know how the platform worked as well and Navani is perfectly able to share a relationship with him…. So how is it Adolin is ruled out in favor of Kaladin on the basis of his mind?
I thus utterly fail to grasp the argument of “Kaladin’s mind fits Shallan’s better”. Adolin has proven to be a lot more defined than people give him credit for.
Oh a few other things that pop to mind in the case of Kaladin… When has Kaladin last shown himself inclined to learn new things? He keeps on relying on his actual knowledge, the one his father taught him, but he is not seen actively seeking to enlarge it, which is exactly what a scholar always does. Kaladin is no thus no more a scholar than Adolin.
Adolin, while definitely not being a scholar, does gather knowledge, if in a very indirect way. He is the one who figures out how to use Shallan’s comment on the rock formation in a combat situation. In other words, he received knowledge, he absorbed it and he used it when the occasion presented itself.
I am not saying Kaladin would not have been able to do the same, but I am simply adding to the fact I fail to picture Kaladin as such a great scholar. A better educated man when it comes to general knowledge, but this is all. His mind is rather centered on his men and his task, whereas Adolin lets his wander a bit more.
Hi Alice, I will most likely be at Sasquan (I live in Spokane). I usually don’t comment here, but I read it every week. Thanks for all you do!
I found this chapter be as great as you said it is. It is funny how we all are once we let our guard down.
@7 Do you have an actual link to where Brandon and Peter have said “Nothing comes out of a chasmfiend chrysalis”? Because that’s definitely incorrect as I’ve seen him comment on how we have seen fully-pupated chasmfiends (like the one that shows up in the hunt during WoK, or that Kaladin and Shallan see later in WoR) but we may or may not have seen a chasmfiend “juvenile”. But yeah stuff definitely comes after the chrysalises.
I would think that the Scholar/Guard is representational: Shallan is a scholar, and Adolin is a guard. He defends.
Hi all,
I am first time poster here.
I agree with Gepeto @10,@11 that Kal is not really a scholar type. I mean, experiments on Stormlight with Sigzil back in Ch12 said this aloud.
On the other hand, I wonder how much of this “unscholarly” has to do with his circumstances and background. One of the signals of “scholarly,” as shown by Shallan, was neverended curiosity which could easily gotten one sidetracked. However, his previous occupations did not allow such luxury. He was originally a trained surgeon – and a pretty good one it seemed – his patients lives were at his/his father’s hand. He needed to utterly be focused on the task on hand, instead of poking around the body and wonder “hmmm, I wonder what that is, maybe let’s try cut it off and see?” Similar arguments could be made during his time of being a soldier and a bridgeman – he really lacked the opportunity allowing his mind to wander around.
However, I still crave for Shallan + Kaladin for some reason. At least it was hinted in the book that they were sorta interested in each other. I agree that it would really depends on how the author decides to play it out. I suppose the best solution would be marrying Adolin and having this underground relationship with Kaladin. Mmmmmm, how yummy that will be…. or not. It will probably piss many people off. Although that in itself would be worth the effort, mwahahaha.
I am not sure whether this has been discussed, but I think there is a side of her being mischievous, hidden rebellious. She would mostly follow the order, but intentionally break it at some finer point. Her father wanted her to be a good lady (by his definition anyway), and she would sort of follow it, except breaking it here and there during banquets. I wonder if that was an sub/unconscious self-defense mechanism. We know that she doesn’t like to be enstrangled/confined, and that is her (subtle) way to fight back for space. Here again, she was socially expected to ask the correct question, which she consciously knew it, but intentionally asked the pooping business. I suppose that here scholarly attitude does not help…
WeiryWriter @13
Brandon said that to me personally when asked at the WoR signing in Lexington. Pretty sure Peter answered much the same when asked at JCon 6. However, looking back at the Q&A I transcribed from Lex, I think they both may have answered a different question than the one intended, if not actually asked. The question was: “What happens to a chasmfiend when it finishes pupating? I can’t imagine either would intentionally Aes Sedai that question when a simple RAFO would have sufficed (but I’m still reasonably convinced that the intent of the question should have been clear). I hadn’t read as far as this chapter in the book by the day of the Lex signing or that particular question would not have been asked.
So, you are agreeing with the portion of the creature’s lifeline discussed by Shallan and Adolin, i.e., juvenile whatever-you-want-to-call-it climbs up on plateau–>chrysalis formed–>adult Chasmfiend emerges (provided the gemheart isn’t harvested from the pupa in the chrysalis), right? I hope so b/c this thing has been bugging the crap out of me for a year and a half and the noted progression is really the only reasonable one.
Thanks for replying.
Edit–clarity
My question is: Is chasmfiend meat edible?
I mean they hunt these creatures all the time, and while food is hardly in short supply for the Alethi what with their Soulcasters on hand, I can’t help but think that a few hundred gallons of melted butter and a giant, killer lobster could make for one heck of an after-battle party…
Why does every relationship between a man and a woman have to be romantic? Shallan and Adolin fit together romantically. Kaladin and Shallan may understand each other better in some ways, because they are both Surgebinders and educated, but that doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship, just friends who can understand each other well because they have similar experiences.
@15 Kaladin never expressed any intellectual curiosity when he trained as a surgeon. He merely absorbed his lessons, but he did not have this passion to learn more. Had it not been for Lirin, he would have never gotten all that knowledge even if it had been available to him. There is also the fact Kaladin wanted to become a soldier much more than continuing gathering knowledge and become a surgeon. He ended choosing his father path in part because he did not feel strong enough to deceive him mostly because Tien could not take his place. In other words, Kaladin has knowledge, but it was enforced on him. Ever since then, he has never made any particular attempt to broaden it, even in Dalinar’s army where it was available to him.
Adolin is highly uneducated as befit an Alethi prince, but there is a natural curiosity to him. For instance, he likes talkative women… Why would a man like talkative women? Because they talk about things and Adolin likes to hear about things. When he went out with a women liking romantic novels, he turned his latest failure into a romantic sap to please her. When he dated one prone on poetry, he ended quoting scripture to Dalinar. When he goes to the menagerie with Shallan, he is genuinely interested in all of the animals and whereas he knows nothing about biology, he likes to hear Shallan tell him about it. In their first date, when she goes biology teacher on him, he leans on and listens… avidly. He even states in his mind he loved the fact she was smart, but did not make him look too stupid. He likes that. He likes her going school teacher on him, mostly because he does have some curiosity which Kaladin has yet to express and we have had a LOT of Kaladin’s POV.
Kaladin, on his side, had zero interest in the menagerie. He could not understand why people would go to a sculpture contest or an art exhibit. What sort of dating partner would he be? One that always follows and has nothing to bring to the discussion because he does not care about being there?
There is also the fact, when shown her porte-folio, Adolin is the only character to spontaneously comment on her drawing talent. Whatever his background is, he clearly is able to appreciate Shallan’s work for what it is: art. Kaladin or Jasnah were completely unable to do the same.
So again, I fail to see what chemistry Kaladin and Shallan could ever have in the future. What they had in the chasm was an understanding that allowed them to respect each other. It was not chemistry. Chemistry is what passes between Shallan and Adolin during their first date. Pure chemistry when two people are walking in the same line without having had to share their entire life to get there.
As for Shallan marrying Adolin and secretly having an affair with Kaladin. NO. Huge NO. Adolin does not deserve this. I would rather have the Kaladin and Shallan pairing than this. Please. Everything but not this.
@18: I agree. I see no reason why whatever passed between Kaladin and Shallan has to be romantic.
wcarter @17
The tongue-in-cheek follow-up question to Brandon was: “Do they taste like lobster?” His answer was: “I would imagine.”
So, let’s feast.
@18 & 19 Every relationship between a man and a woman definitely does not have to be romantic in nature. But in regard to the ships in question, I have to say that what I saw with her and Kal sure looked like chemistry to me. They can be friends all they want, but the text definitely alludes to their mutual attraction to each other. I’m thinking of the times when we may be in either of their point of views, and they have to reel their thoughts back in and remind themselves of who is supposed to be with who. Their thoughts turn to each other quite a bit, and not in brotherly/sisterly ways. Oh, and they tend to feel a bit guilty about it afterwards, which is rather telling.
I think Shallan really likes Adolin and he will suit her needs nicely. Maybe something great will come from that. She certainly thinks lovely thoughts about him. But if she is going to have to constantly remind herself that her attentions/affections should be focused on Adolin, I don’t think that’s fair to anyone, least of all Adolin.
That being said, I don’t really have much of an opinion as to who Shallan belongs with; I’m just along for the ride. At this point she is obviously attracted to both men for different reasons, so it’ll be interesting to see where things go.
Regarding the Heralds for this chapter and the brave/obedient dichotomy, I suggest that Shalan is actually the brave one in this couple and Adolin is the obedient one. As discussed in this review, Adolin is/has been largely motivated by duty and loyalty. Obedience to his father’s demands is HUGE in his daily life and personal goals. Sure, he’s brave in battle in the sense of not being afraid. But even in this, his bravery is part of the expectation. Part of his role.
Whereas Shallan is, in every real way, bucking expectations of her gender, station, upbringing, and education at every possible turn, running headlong into situations she is blatantly not prepared for, facing and controlling her fears constantly, and doing a wonderful job of hiding all of it. She just barely plays the part of a good little high class girl well enough to avoid too much suspicion, but all of her real actions, her motivations, her goals, are far outside the expected. She may never lead a charge into battle the way Adolin does and will, or wear a full set of Plate, but where it counts, I think she may have Adolin beat on the bravery score.
Can I just say I’m a little tired of love triangles! I know they happen in real life and they are dramatic both in real life and fiction but it just seems like they have been way over done lately in media. I mean, probably 94.367% (yes I’m very precise) of all new young adult fiction is centered around a love triangle.
I think Shallan and Adolin fit together and don’t really want a big dramatic shipping war. I also really like the friendship that is beginning between Adolin and Kaladin and I really want to see that continue and not devolve into some sort of macho contest (yes I’m thinking of the ridiculous scene where Bella scrapes herself so wolf boy (don’t remember his name) rips off his shirt, flexes, then gives her the shirt as a bandage…..uhg).
Anyways, this was a great scene between Shallan and Adolin. I rarely laugh out loud while reading but I did at this point.
P.S. I think if we combine all of Gepeto’s comments they’d be longer than the 10 Stormlight Archive Books together :) I’m only giving you a hard time, please write away.
@21: Every relationship does not need to be romantic, you are entirely right in that regards and I still fail to see how whatever passed between Kaladin and Shallan is supposed to be romantic. They basically had to share their entire life story before each was able to see some measure of good into each other. For me (unless I have the definition of chemistry completely wrong and if I do, then I apologize), chemistry is when two people whom barely know each other are able to think in sync, to be at ease and to genuinely appreciate each other. The fact Kaladin and Shallan had to live a near death experience, stuck in the middle of a highstorm down a chasm with Kaladin bleeding out before they were able to stop hating each other does not speak of a great romantic arc, not to me at least it doesn’t.
Shallan never once considered having anything romantic relationship with Kaladin. She thinks of him once while talking with Adolin, a thought I felt derived more of curiosity and intrigue towards a strange man, then of romantic interest. She has not been around many men before, so it is normal for her to compare the few she knows. Every single girl does that and the compared to ones are not necessarily romantic interest. She has no physical attraction towards Kaladin and whereas physical attraction is not all that defines a relationship, it is still a pretty large part of it, in the beginning at the very least.
Also, Kaladin and Shallan have never pass any time together that led me to believe they could become a believable couple. Worst, the one time Kaladin had to babysit a Shallan/Adolin date, he was disgusted by their choice of activities. Kaladin and Shallan never shared any idle conversation which composes 99.9% of every relationships as deep confidence triggered by dire circumstances truly do not happen all that often. They have never simply enjoyed each other’s company: they had stop hating each other and had shown signs of mutual respect. Since when is this a sign of an impending romantic interest? I see it more as a sign they be able to become friends and to work together as Radiants.
By the end of WoR, Shallan was very committed to Adolin. She knew Kaladin was a Radiant as well and it did not change her thoughts on the matter. Her choice was clear and she did not share anything more than a few side thoughts about being happy for Kaladin. I also doubt she was faking her “attraction” when she was kissing Adolin… She did not have to have this conversation with him right now. She did not have to re-assert her claim on him just now. She didn’t. She could have left it as is and give herself time to think about it. She did not need him anymore either and yet, her first action, upon arriving at Urithiru was to break the spell and make him feel she was still Shallan. Surely if she cared more about Kaladin than Adolin, she would have never done these things. Worst, if she had entertained even the slightest doubt towards her relationship with Adolin, she would not have done as she did not need to. Her actions were meant to sooth him, not her.
There is also the fact that, while many people argue Shallan stop listening to Adolin speak to have a few thoughts on Kaladin means something, she did much worst in the case of Adolin. She was unlocking the oathgate: it was a crucial, desperate moment and yet, the second she sees bloody and beaten Adolin walk towards her while leaning on another man, she forgets all thoughts to rush to him. It is not a mere pointless conversation she broke, but the most important thing she had yet to accomplish in her life and she did it because Adolin was hurt. It is undeniable she cares about Adolin. She has never shown anything close to this level of care towards Kaladin.
I must admit, I have always been somewhat disturbed to read so little support in favor of the Adolin/Shallan union. The more I read about those two, the more convinced I feel towards this ship. The arguments against do not seem as strong, not to me, and yet, the majority of people disagrees with me. I sometimes wonder if these thoughts do not sprout from the fact Kaladin is the main protagonist and most readers favorite character which makes more people willing to root for him.
@23 Oh sorry. I LOVE this topic and I have so much to say about it. I felt I have spent so much time thinking about this particular topic I could nearly write a dissertation on it and nothing pleases me more than sharing them. Who’s to say, maybe I’ll even convince a few people to switch camp.
Storm Brother @23 – I totally agree. While we-the-readers can argue the triangle all we want, I strongly hope (and believe) Brandon won’t take it that direction. IMO, it’s a cheap way to build tension in a story, and for the SA, it’s just not necessary. Some stories are lame enough (coughcoughTwilightcough) that this sort of “tension” is needed just to make anyone care enough to keep going; Brandon’s worlds and stories need not depend on it. Which is not to say he wouldn’t do it if he felt that the characters demanded it or if became integral to the story he needed to tell, but I don’t think he’ll do it just because the possibility is there.
Back to an earlier point, I mentioned Adolin’s “crafted persona” in the post. I really think that’s the case – that the person he displays to the world is far shallower than he really is – but I’m not so sure he knows it. Sure, sometimes he deliberately plays dumb, and of course he knows he’s doing it. But when it comes to his expectations of courtship/women, I think the reason all his previous attempts have fallen through is that he didn’t really care. He didn’t find the women all that interesting, and never found the thing that would bring out his deeper interest. But… I don’t think he knows that’s what was happening. He thought he was interested, he thought he was trying, but it’s not until Shallan’s unexpectedness that the inside of his mind and heart wake up and bring out genuine interest and thought.
In other words, I’m not accusing Adolin of being fake, I just think he’s been playing the expected game out of habit, and his heart isn’t really in it until this chapter.
Did I mention, I love this chapter?
@26: Oh I am convinced Adolin has never spend enough time psycho-analyzing himself to figure out why he keeps failing at courtships and why he struggles so much at developing lasting friendships… I do not even think he is all that aware he hides himself: he was just raised this way, so he is this way. There is not a streak of rebellion in him: he just wants to be what he is supposed to be and, on appearances, he is quite it. The Alethi model suits him, on the exterior, so why ask more questions?
I also think part of Adolin “crafted persona” is due to his endeavor at acting as the protector of his family. He wants to care for them, to be the strong one, so he projects what he believes to be strength. He never lets his worries shine as “not to worry Renarin”. Everything he believes may be a weakness or may be used to create weakness in his family members: he hides deep within. What he is does not matter, it never mattered as all that ever mattered for him was Dalinar and Renarin’s safety.
The real Adolin, we see it from times to times, when he lets his guard down, when he drops all pretense and let his heart speak, openly. He rarely does it and Shallan is the first individual to breach through it. Even Renarin I suspect has not gotten to the bottom of who Adolin is.
My thoughts have been for the longest time his armor will crack and shatter over the course of the next book and he’ll be left with nothing more than his inside self. However, he does not know how to protect his true self else then by burying it within an armor, so he’ll get hurt rather quickly. And then, he’ll break, because the true Adolin, I believe, is very vulnerable.
Shallan’s thoughts on the stormwall at the end always made me a bit sad, because she comments on how no artist or scholar has seen inside it. Yet…by their very nature, we know that the Listeners could, except we know what happens later on. I really do hope some of them make it.
And the shipping wars begin in earnest I see! Personally I’m just going to wait for book 3 in this little shelter over here to weather out the incoming highstorm…
There is definitely something between Kaladin and Shallan. Readers aren’t making that up out of some need to make romantic pairings. It’s a relationship that had me interested enough in the chasms that I reacted like Kaladin when Shallon mentioned Adolin. Oh, right, him. I’m not sure what I want to happen, though. I want to see where Brandon goes with it.
My question: why does the giant, man-eating, aquatic, great shell have a name that sounds like the unmade? yu-nerig
At the risk of another avalanche of Gepeto comments, let me attempt some clarification of my view of Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin. My sequence is deliberate in that is how I view the importance of the characters or, at least, my attachment to them. Gepeto obviously is enthralled by the Adolin character. That’s fine, since it’s all subjective. Kaladin has overcome much to arrive at his current station of life. Those bitter experiences have colored his reaction to the upper elements of Alethi society that is only now undergoing modification. He is enthralled by Shallan who has revealed something of the even greater emotional pitfalls that she has overcome and remained an optimistic person. He appreciates and responds to her fine mind after they stopped their verbal battles. He also much appreciates the quality of her drawings and total recall when they are lost in the chasm. His curiosity and strong analytic capability is shown in the discussion with Shallan over the implications of that rock cross-section. Both conclude that it contained man-made material. Shallan has read much and is a more formal scholar. Kaladin, in common with nearly all Alethi males, can’t read ‘normal’ books – only glyphs, and is, thus, at a disadvantage. Yet he reaches the same conclusion when confronted by the layers and coloring in the rock. He shows no interest in the zoo since he is doing his job in guarding the high-prince of whom he is not overly fond – at that point.
Shallan is an interesting character. She has overcome even more emotional grief than Kaladin and has remained amazingly productive and cheerful. She, however, wasn’t trained to have Kaladin’s refined sense of ethics that was instilled by his parents. She stole Jasnah’s alleged soulcaster to save her family’s economic well-being, and she expresses some arrogance when some soldier in Urithiru warns her about standing close to a precipice. She could learn from Kaladin, as well as he from her.
Adolin is a fine, attractive character who is loyal and friendly. His attraction to this unusual or strange young woman (Shallan) speaks well of him. His reading fashion magazines is not surprising given male illiteracy – particularly in his circles (what else could he ‘read’ – he may not even understand glyphs). He does not seem overly rational or cautious – except in understanding male figures and battle tactics. For example, wasn’t it unwise to provide a young woman whom he had just met with all that inside information? What is she were an imposter working for Sadeas or another opponent of Dalinar? Even if she were his cousin’s (Jasnah) ward, who knows what she could do with the information? It seems that he is willing to go on instinct and senses that he can trust Shallan.
Perhaps i’ll do more reading over the weekend to flesh out my observations.
@30: Sorry about the avalanche, but his is my favorite subject… I will try to keep it short. I do not prefer the Adolin/Shallan union solely because I an enthralled by Adolin’s character. I was rooting for it before I got enthralled by Adolin’s character.
There are multiples of reasons why I dislike the Kaladin/Shallan union, but I only expand, here, on those I believe have tractability within canon and not those pertaining from favoritism.
Based on your analysis, I would say we have a different view of Kaladin. You described him as curious whereas I think not. He had one small talk comprised of three sentences on why Shallan was drawing the rock. This would be the only time, in quite a lot of POV, where Kaladin had actually been potentially curious about something. I am not entirely sure he was not asking simply because he mistrusted Shallan, but I will assume you are right and he simply was curious. However this is besides the point. Kaladin is not more curious than Adolin and Adolin is not less curious than Kaladin. Adolin is perfectly able to enter a much lengthy discussion with Shallan on biology a illustrated by the chapter at hand. Therefore, the argument Kaladin’s mind is more suited to Shallan does not hold the road. Adolin’s own mind, whereas not having much general knowledge, is perfectly able to keep up and he does have a natural curiosity that makes his responsive to Shallan’s interest.
The other argument pertaining to Kaladin having analytic skills does not play in favor of Kaladin either as Adolin does have good analytic skills as well. A fact highlighted by his approach to duels and his battle tactics. He does not readily display it in discussion falling outside his subject of predilection, but I blame education more than anything. Men do not offer opinions on women’s subjects. He does not know how to, but he does have enough wit to do it.
As for Kaladin admiring Shallan’s art, I disagree. He only saw it as a tool, a map to get them out of there whereas Adolin was truly complimenting the art itself. Kaladin does not care about art: he most likely thinks it is frivolous and suddenly having blue eyes for a few hours won’t change his mind on it. He does not seem to care about beauty, so I am sorry but anything pertaining to art is an advantage towards fashion-obsessed having an eye for art Adolin.
I agree both characters can learn from each other. I disagree they need to go romantic for it. In fact, I failed to see what Kaladin and Shallan going romantic would add to the story. What would it add to their relationship? Whatever it is they can learn from each other, they can learn without being a couple. Them being a couple would not add anything. However, what Adolin and Shallan have to learn from each other does need them to be an item. Shallan needs to learn to let someone care for her. Kaladin is not a caring person: he won’t care for her, not like Adolin would. Adolin needs to learn how to love and his story arc has been linked to his courtships. Not having him having resolution on that matter would be sad and anticlimactic. All in all, Kaladin and Shallan’s relationship can blossom without them being romantic whereas Adolin and Shallan relationship will never be one of friendship. If Shallan chooses Kaladin, then Adolin will be forever excluded from their circles, the Radiants and his family as they all are Radiants. I am unable to see a future where he will ever be fine with it.
Adolin is emotionally impulsive. When strong emotions come into play, he gets very impulsive. He was not careful, agree, but it highlights one his weaknesses: emotions and his ability (or inability) to deal with them. He needs to learn how to quell the strong emotions he gets overridden with: strong rules likes Dalinar won’t work with him. What he needs is…. a blanket……
I love Adolin…. Period! No ifs, buts or maybes about it. Kaladin might be the main character but to me Adolin is the deeper one.
Why hey do I love Adolin? Let me count the ways!
He is a fashionista and can still keep his macho image!
– IRL -in an era of metrosexual, lumbersexual and the now defunct – queer eye for a straight guy, finding someone like Adolin who can look at fashion magazines and charge into battle in one breath is a big plus for me. (Thank you Brandon for creating Adolin.)
Adolin is a foreigner in his own land, even in his own Princedom.
Adolin is blonde with very little black hair mixed in. According to another chapter in the book, Alethi hair breeds true (or was it runs true). Everyone in the royal family (I’m unsure about Renaren) have black hair except Adolin. Gavilar, Navani, Elhokar, Jasnah and Dalinar have pure black hair. Adolin grew up in a ruling family wherein his blonde hair stood out. I presume Adolin’s mother is a foreigner and blonde. Anyway, can you imagine the uncertainty and the insecurity of a blonde boy in a family of brunettes?
IRL – think of Prince Harry who has red hair. Up to today, everyone is wondering if Princess Diana had an affair with the red haired Captain of her guards. (sorry guys, I watch too much TMZ)
i can can fill up this page. I have actually pre-written 10. But I don’t want to take everyone’s time. I just want to say that Adolin is as interesting a character as Kaladin. In my eyes as a reader, Adolin and Kaladin are foils to each other.
As for romantic relationship, I am for Adolin and Shallan. I will quote Syl for my reason – “Kaladin, you are sour.’
Hooray for Adolin!
@32: I love you for bringing the hair issue. Have you noticed the first thing Shallan says to Adolin is about his hair and, somehow, it was the right thing to say? I would love to read your 10 pages… :-O
FYI, Renarin has mostly black hair with a few blond locks, we are not sure how many exactly, but he is not blond like his brother.
@29 Bellaberry: Maybe the name is meant to deliberately evoke the idea of some great evil/danger, which is why it would sound kind of like an Unmade? These are the greatshells that are used as a means of offering false hope to prisoners, because if you can survive a week while bleeding out a bit into the ocean…you would end up seeing your salvation disappear when the blood attracts the yu-nerig to eat you before your time was up. The Unmade whose name is closest is (this isn’t a clear break for me to quick bring up the coppermind) Yelig-nar. It’s possible that name drifted down through Roshar’s mythology and transferred from an Unmade (which most modern Rosharans, especially the uneducated ones, would know nothing about) to a much more realistic monster – the giant lobster-sharks (aka aquatic greatshells) that would eat people. I believe Jasnah had a similar theory when it came to why some darkeye stories depicted voidbringers more like chasmfiends – when you have something monstrous in front of you, it’s easy for people to think it’s the monster they’ve heard about.
Gepeto, I am with you, with the caveat that I would have preferred if Shallan didn’t get embroiled in romantic subplots at all. This is possibly unfair, but I am sick and tired of heroines and their story-lines being dominated by romantic subplots, which also seem contractually obligated to lead to TRU WUV. Women are more than their romances, seriously. I want to see the same flexibility in that department as the male characters enjoy. Like, OK, Dalinar has a serious romance, but we don’t have to read about it at tedious length and at no point does it supersede his actual plot-line. And the love triangle is blessedly in the past. Ahem.
Anyway, things being as they are, Kaladin is the one we have been conditioned to expect to get the girl. A scrappy self-made man vying for a young noblewoman’s favor with a nobleman? Fantasy novels will, in 99.9% of cases, let him get the girl. It is tropy to the extreme. No suspense there at all. Which is why I really hope that BWS doesn’t go there. Or, even worse, into romantic triangles/squares, etc.
And yea, I like Shallan’s chemistry with Adolin too.
Though, I’d kinda think that in most cases one would be more distracted and impeded by having a load in one’s armor than by holding back for a few hours/a day. But then, I guess it’s very individual… and possibly TMI.
So I feel compelled to add my 2 cents…….well count me in as a definite YES to Shallan and Adolin. They are so cute together and this is a great chapter one of my faves.
While I feel Shallan could potentially see Kaladin in a romantic way, I think that will never happen as long as Adolin is in the picture. Now if Adolin dies in a future book ( I really, really hope this doesn’t happen ) then that would open up the possibility of a Shallan \Kaladin pairing.
That being said, I really don’t see Kaladin as emotionally ready to date anyone at this time, as he has plenty of issues to work out first.
I really enjoyed the comments above and the post regarding an in depth analysis of Adolin and feel that you guys hit the nail on the head.
Bizzy @22
I like that interpretation.
FenrirMoridin @28
I’ll hang out with you in the Storm Cellar.
Bellaberry @29
I agree that there is some kind of bond developing between Kal and Shallan. It started way back with the boots incident when they first met. That doesn’t automatically imply that a love triangle is developing, but you never know. That’s all I have to say on the subject while I’m hanging out in the Storm Cellar waiting for SA 3.
And that greatshell’s name triggered the same reaction for me. FenrirMoridin @34 offers a reasonable explanation. But note that the Reshi Sea greatshells also have a hyphenated species name (Tai-na), and the one we met in the Rysn interlude has a hyphenated individual name (Relu-na) . Those greatshells certainly don’t appear to be man-eaters, just the opposite. So far we have 2 species that are man-eaters and 1 that doesn’t appear to be. I don’t believe that upsets FenrirMoridin’s explanation in the least (the Reshi Isles are pretty isolated from the mainland). However, we do know that greatshells have a powerful symbiotic relationship with spren. So, is it possible that some of the species have a symbiotic relationship with Odium’s spren, which makes them man eaters?
It seems to me that Kaladin’s interaction with Shallan might be set up for the next book, when he is likely to meet up with Laral again. She is the light eyed young woman from his childhood who spurned him because he wasn’t light eyed, himself. I suspect some of her attitude toward him was defense mechanism after her father died. After all, she was eventually forced to marry Roshone (so a romance may not happen, and I kind of hope it doesn’t unless he is out of the picture). Still, her attitude toward Kaladin contributed to his hatred of light eyes. There are some parallels between Laral and Shallen. Hopefully, he will be able to see this and approach her with an open mind.
@37 Ways: I completely forgot about other hyphenated greatshell names. It might not disapprove an Unmade connection, but it also might be a quirk of the languages of Roshar, I’m a tad ashamed I missed that (Sanderson likes to slip in what language clues he can, since it’s hard when it’s all translated to English for us – names almost always are the biggest clue). As for whether or not Odium spren can link with these greatshells, that’s a scary thought. I’ve always assumed that the chasmfiends and other man-eating greatshells get to that point through more natural means: the yu-nerig seem like sharks in how they can detect blood for their meals and, if they are meant to evoke sharks, would also mean they aren’t very picky eaters. Similarly, the chasmfiends we’ve seen are in an area of low food so it makes sense they would go for humans out of desperation, especially since all the dead bodies from plateau runs mean their main source of carrion would give them a taste for humans as well. But if Odium can get a handle on them…well, hopefully people stay out of the water and any caves!
To Gepeto @33
Here it is! I tried to make it shorter than my original writing but it is still 900 words. There will be some spoilers. Sorry about that.
Top Ten Reasons Why I love Adolin
1. He is a fashionista and can still keep his macho image.
I have always wondered if writers have prescience or have some precognitive abilities. Brandon Sanderson is as far from the fashion world as possible, yet he has created a world that is worthy of the Parisians four years before the resurgence of men’s fashion that began a year ago. Thank you Brandon for creating Adolin who can worry about buttons, cuffs, cravats and color combinations when he has to fight a duel in the afternoon. It just takes my breath away.
2. Adolin summons his shardblade first, and then asks questions later.
In the Way of Kings, Adolin defended a courtesan when an officer from Sadeas camp was physically abusing her. That was the first time that Adolin and Khaladin crossed paths. It was also the first time that Kaladin saw Adolin’s shard blade. This incident with the courtesan reminded me of Captain Kirk who usually shoots first and then asks questions later. This little bit of Captain Kirk is Adolin is just so sigh worthy!
3. He is a man apart, even from his own family.
A blonde in a family of brunettes, who happens to be the royal family, must give Adolin lots of insecurities yet he did all the right things and trained to be the next High Prince. The whole royal family – Gavilar, Navani, Elhokar, Jasnah and Dalinar have all black hair. Renaren has mostly black hair with just a little blonde mixed in. Adolin is mostly blonde with a sparse mix of black hair. Surrounded with very strong personalities, that can give havoc to a young boy’s self confidence, yet Adolin worked through it.
4. He won his shard blade and chosen by a Ryshadium at 16.
Adolin might have inherited his plate, but he won his shard blade in a duel. And a Ryshadium horse just not bond to anyone. The rider has to be chosen by the horse. Adolin just went beyond the definition of cool with those two accomplishments. He went from cool to hot in one heartbeat, not ten!!!
5. Adolin is a babe magnet.
Many readers believe that Adolin is a player. I did too when I first “read” the two books. Then I “listened” to them recently. That was when I realized that women actually “call” on Adolin and not the other way around. So, his reputation as a being a player might be exaggerated. Additionally, Adolin feels bad when a relationship falls through. He was starting to get a complex, which incidentally takes us to the next reason why I love Adolin Kholin.
6. He is sensitive and full of emotions yet handles them very well.
So, does this make Adolin the strong silent type? I don’t know but listening to the books, I cannot help but compare how Adolin and Kaladin deal with their struggles and disappointments. While Kaladin seems to like wallowing in misery and blame the whole world for his troubles, Adolin perseveres. Cases in point – the way Adolin handled Dalinar’s vision and his stoic acceptance of Sadeas betrayal while the whole Kholin army was fighting for their lives.
7. Adolin loves his family and will protect them with his life.
This is easy to explain. Adolin is protective of Renaren. It is obvious even in small ways but really showed during the full-disadvantaged duel. Adolin also dueled his peers to defend Dalinar and their house’s honor. He faced the assassin in white twice to defend Dalinar and in a way Elhokar.
8. He knows when he is wrong and accepts responsibility for it.
There are many examples as seen in the number of spheres he spends for gifts to the women he courted when the relationship is on the brink of falling through. But, the best example is again with how he reacted when they figured out that Dalinar was not losing his mind. It was hard to accept he was wrong, but Adolin owned up to it.
9. There is a bad boy inside Adolin itching to get out.
There is darkness in Adolin that Sadeas brings out. And that makes him so human! He is not just the blonde Adonis who happens to be a Prince and gets along with everyone including the grooms and lowly workers. Adolin’s actions towards Sadeas and the insecurities he felt when Shallan revealed her true nature at the end of WoR just make Adolin so real!
10. Adolin is a proto-Radiant or a proto-bad boy.
Perhaps, this is the most important reason why I love Adolin as a character. He is so open-ended. He can go either way. It really depends on how Brandon Sanderson will mold him. Though Kaladin is very interesting, his path is set. For Adolin, it can still go either way. Why do I think he is a proto-radiant – his shard blade is always gleaming, according to Dalinar. And Adolin’s blade has started to form in less than 10 heartbeats. Is a spren awakening? Yet, on the other hand, Adolin and Sadeas confrontation did not end well. Will that darkness claim Adolin?
BTW, just to set the record straight, I think that Kaladin is cool too. I like Kaladin but I love Adolin.
@35 Isilel
You’re right to a point, but the truth is romantic sub-plots being an absolute necessity cheapen characters of both genders. It’s taken decades to see the occasional subversion–Jasnah comes to mind–as a reaction to the overdone nature of the tropes if nothing else.
To be honest I don’t care whether or not Shallan ultimately ends up with anyone (so long as Jasnah isn’t pigeon holed into some romance plot down the line), more than Shallan, I would like to see Kaladin portrayed as fine on his own. That way you would have at least one happily single character from each gender in the story.
As a grown man who has never had any romantic interest in anyone, I’m kind of tired of society and all forms of media portraying asexuals (male and female) as either completely nonexistent, or at best, some sort of barely functioning sub-human with no friends or social skills.
Kaladin is a great character and a good captain to his men, but frankly he seems like he would make a piss-poor boyfriend or spouse. Like me, his drive and his focus are his job (thankfully mine in no way involves being shot at and/or stabbed).
And while Kaladin has shown an interest in Shallan and vice versa, it’s human nature to seek some form of companionship from other people romantic or not. I believe in their case they see in each other a peer who has been through a living hell similar their own. That doesn’t have to lead to anything romantic, but it should provide them with someone to talk to as they try to piece themselves back together.
@41. Good thoughts…..I’m leaning towards liking the idea of single Kaladin and a single Jasnah through out the series.
@40.I agree Adolin is so swoon worthy! He definitely has a strong yet caring personality! Here’s to Shallan and Adolin 4 ever ♡
@35: Oh how I agree with you here. I too do not want Shallan to be defined solely on her romantic relationship as it too often is the case with female characters. However, I do think the danger of this is rather small. As others have pointed out, Brandon is not the kind of author to write romance simply to spice things up: he writes romance if it is relevant to the story arc and not the opposite. So far, Shallan has not been driven by her romantic interest, quite the contrary: she has made is quite clear to poor Adolin she would NOT make romance pass before anything else.
I also agree how we have been conditioned by the entertainment industry to always picture the self-made reluctant hero to end up with the high born pretty quirky and witty young woman. All romances do end this way. In fact, it got to a point where, when I read Shallan and Kaladin’s interaction when she was about to meet the Highprinces for the first time, I cringed. I had not preference for Adolin at the time, so I was not playing favorites, but my inner self literally rebuke at the obvious implications (which implies yelling at each other characters will fall in love because literature demands it) of seeing Shallan and Kaladin go nasty and angry at each other. I thought to myself it was impossible Brandon would create a romance between these two just as she was about to meet Adolin for the first time. This thought was so vile it almost made me want to stop reading: NOT again. In seem as every single romance I have either read or seen started this way: two characters hating each other until OH dire circumstances make them appreciate each and fall into deep true love even though they have nothing in common, but that’s not important now isn’t it? Anyway, my personal feelings on the ship is not something I usually bring forward as an argument as it is not one. I tend to prefer to refer to more in-text arguments, but I cannot help thinking the reason some people prefer this ship is linked to deep conditioning where people have come to expect relationships to start this way, that and a combination of Kaladin simply being the main protagonist and Adolin just the side-kick.
As for the load in the armor, I can understand circumstances where he may have had to go… It often happens to athletes: they can’t stop, but the urge gets so strong its either that or…. in the case of Adolin being injured or killed, so he just…. Poor guy. Took courage to admit that on a first date.
@40 Thanks for sharing! I have never thought to write a top ten reasons why I like Adolin, but it is a neat idea. Here are a few comments.
1. I agree it is rather interesting Adolin is able to care about buttons while being very manly at the same time. Sadly, it is one of the reasons why people often dismiss Adolin as a worthy character. People call him spoiled for ti and it annoys me to no end.
2. Nice one. In the same scene, Kaladin pondered endlessly as to what he should do until he was beaten to it by Adolin… I’d say I like the fact Adolin is an action man. He is not a character to endlessly dwindle into his inner thoughts or to go overly introspective about his issues: he sees problem, he tries to fix it. He never is idle and he never accepts status quo as the solutio, which I found rather refreshing in a story where every other character does the exact opposite.
3. It’s fun you bring forward the hair issue and try to link it to Adolin’s own feelings within his family. I gathered his mother was most likely blond, so I do not know if Adolin’s legitimacy was ever discussed, but we know, from Brandon, he indeed is Dalinar’s son. We know Adolin has a thing about his hair coloring as he comments on it, he states how he prefers women with non-black hair… Nearly all characters who comments on Adolin’s appearance mentions his… hair. There are abundant comments on his hair. I wish we would find out more about Adolin’s childhood as I never thought being blond may have brought him issues: it is assumed by the entire fandom nothing special happened in Adolin’s childhood and he never had any true struggles. The idea it may be false is fun to entertain.
4. Oh YEAH. Adolin won a Sharblade as a teenager in a world where grown men such as Sadeas never managed to earn one for themselves. Quite a feat and I wish we would find out more about it. If only we could get that one flashback… the duel where it all started…
5. Yes, yes, YES. Someone else has said it. Adolin is no Don Juan: in fact he is awful at courtship. Worst, all relationships we have seen him enter were initiated by the… woman. We have never seen him make the first steps, ever, but he gets this horrible reputation where half the fandom thinks he is nothing more than a jerk… Except, he never did anything with all these women: he was courted, he got into it before being dumped for reasons I am still not entirely capable of identifying other than him falling for the next girl courting him (while he was dating another), the fact he can’t open up to people and he does not know the first thing about love. Adolin’s reputation is a mega huge scam. I get overly disturbed when I read people claiming he has add home-run activity with multiple partner when it is obvious he has never passed first base.
6. Adolin does not wallow into self-pity, if anything, he’ll work his butt of to make things better. He is rather selfless in that regards. However, I am unsure about him having mastered his emotions as he is quite the opposite…. Adolin rides on his emotions and has little control over them. When over-excited, he booked himself an unfair duel, when riled, he threatens Sadeas, etc. He is an emotional mumbo-jumbo and I love his for it. Fantasy tend to feature the opposite: introspective, always hiding their true emotions main characters.
7. Adolin cares. He just does. Need I say anymore?
8. Another good one. When proven wrong, Adolin does not through a tantrum, he simply acknowledge he was wrong and he moves on. He even finds in him NOT to blame Dalinar for having stupidly trust Sadeas. Classy.
9. Adolin is the Prince Charming trope with a twists: he lost his horse and is about to get dirty. I love the fact true Adolin does not truly believe all of his father’s honor talk and just wants to get back to the basic: you do not harm my loved ones, swear you are never going to stop killing them and hope to walk away unmolested because a thousand years old book said you should. Adolin, oh Adolin: Radiants need you. Without you, nothing will ever get done.
10. I agree Adolin is out wildcard. Every single other character is well set on a given path, but him. We have no idea where he’ll go, but we sure know where Kaladin is heading, and Dalinar, and Shallan, and Renarin, and Jasnah, and just about everyone, but Adolin. It makes him widely interesting. However, I am interested in knowing why you state his Blade is behaving abnormally…. When did it appear without the 10 heartbeats and when did it glow? Did it glow white? I do not recall reading this…
@41: I agree about your statement.
@42 Yes!!! We should have a fan club. Adolin and Shallan Forever. I wonder what the fandom will think of us. :-)
@43 – I’ll answer you line by line as you did mine. It’s so logical.
`1. Don’t you see that it is Adolin’s paradox – being a fashionista and a warrior at the same time? Yes it is annoying that others see him as spoiled. But it is Kaladin talking, if you really think about it.
2.YES! I love that scene. Adolin the action man.
3. The hair issue is actually about being SET APART and a foil to Kaladin’s uneasiness and being worried of being set apart because his father is a surgeon, he is studying to be a surgeon and they are of the third (or was it second) nahn. Since we don’t know what happened in Adolin’s childhood, I will assume that he adjusted well though he is different. As you say, everyone notices his hair. That sets him apart. Yet, he seems so “normal” in relation to his peers. As for Kaladin, in WoK and WoR, he is so scared to be different from the rest. Adolin “owned” being different while Kaladin as usual agonized about it.
4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 – Amen.
10. In the Way of Kings, in one of the chapters that followed after Sadeas left Dalinar, Adolin and the whole Kholin army at The Tower, Dalinar mentioned that Adolin’s shard is always gleams bright. This scene was before Bridge 4 rescued them. I did not catch it when I read the book. But, when I listened to the audio book, I caught it because when I bought the audio book, I have read both novels.
As for the less than 10 heartbeats, it was during one of the duels. His sword came first. Adolin thought of it that he was more nervous than the other shardbearer. Again, it was on the audio book that I caught this.
When I listened to the books, I find things that I did not see while reading. I guess it’s because I have a tendency to speed read just to know what will happen next. I always plan to re-read but I always end up buying the audio book simply because I have a commute to work. And I also listen to it while I’m walking the dog or exercising. Ha! Ha!
Quite frankly, the reason why I like Adolin from the very beginning is because he is a fashionista. The other reasons came later.
I know that the fandom hates that Brandon is talking fashion in the Stormlight Archive. I am so glad he is doing it. I am a very visual person. To me, the fashion is part and parcel of the storyline. Think of the story of Versailles and Marie Antoinette without the elaborate fashion. Can you imagine seeing the movie and Marie Antoinette looking so dowdy? It will be so boring!
I believe that Brandon, by putting the element of fashion put color in the books, no pun intended.
1. And because of Kaladin misplaced comments, half the fandom sees Adolin as spoiled… Kaladin sees shiny buttons and nice boots on a well groomed prince and think he has to be spoiled. He sees slender limbs and hands that never saw work on his less fashionable brother and he thinks this is a nice kid… This has been one of my main criticism towards the portrayal of Renarin in the fandom where it is assumed he is the good un-spoiled brother. How could Kaladin observed Renarin has never done any work in his entire life (not his fault, but still the end result) and think that kid is not spoiled? That is baffling to me. Adolin, at least, works hard for his buttons which Renarin could wear as well, without being ask to work in exchange.
3. I have never read anyone making this analysis based on Adolin’s hair color… You make an interesting link between Adolin and his family and Kaladin and his. I had never seen anyone make it before. Adolin, despite being set on fitting in and behaving like everyone else, likes having blond hair that sets him apart. My thoughts have always been he got his hair coloring from his mother and has always been proud of it. It has been implied Adolin physically does not resemble Dalinar (blond mop-like messy hair, handsome, seems to have a physic built for speed and agility whereas Dalinar is built for strength, not as tall, etc). It is interesting what you say about Kaladin, how it is true he hated being set apart and wanted to be like the other boys…
As for the ten heartbeats, I think you are mistaken. Adolin’s Blade appears faster because he was so nervous his heart was beating faster than Salinor. This part highlights another aspect of Adolin’s character which is often over-looked: that kid is nervous as hell. Salinor is an easy duel, one he knew he could win, easily. It was not even a challenge and yet, he was rippled by nervousness right before it. It also befits his reaction after being named Highprince by Dalinar where he was overcome by stress (having stomach cramps is one of the many effect of deep stress). It makes me foresee we are going to see stress overridden Adolin in the next book…
I am unsure if Adolin’s Blade gleam in the same way as Kaladin’s shines… I would have to re-read both passage and see it if there is a resemblance. However, I would think the wording used would make both different as I doubt Adolin’s Blade is shining just now…
Interesting. I have read people like Adolin for many reasons, but because he likes fashion, that is a first. I was not aware the fandom looked down on it unfavorably… Where have you seen it was seen as pejorative? If anything, I think it had some people drawing Adolin as looking very feminine as if a man cannot take care of his physical appearance and be very mainly at the same time…. But negatively?
For my part, I have always liked Adolin. Back in WoK, I thought he was the second more interesting POV after Kaladin as I thought his thought process was refreshing. Dalinar was so grave and somber, Kaladin was so miserable and Shallan was not overly interesting: Adolin was light and dealt with true down-to-earth issues. My father is going mad: what do I do? Simple. Accessible. However, the moment where I truly started to root for Adolin was when he realized that, despite being an outgoing social person, he had basically no friend. I felt his pain when Jakamav rejected him, which showed how sensitive he truly is. This was something I could relate to on a personal level which made emphasize with him greatly. After that, I just wanted Adolin to get a friend and I wanted that friend to be Kaladin.
It’s always fun to discuss Adolin with other people.
re Shallan being “brave” by facing the Highstorm:
Yes initially she was afraid, but once the Stormwall advances, she is so absorbed by the sight that she becomes oblivious to the danger. So I’m not sure you can say it’s brave to face it up to six seconds prior to being smashed.
Gapeto – not trying to dissuade you, just a comment on a detail you said @@@@@ eg. 10:
I’m not sure you can deduce genuine interest just because he comments on it. Yes Alethi man don’t read, but as Kaladin was taught to be a surgeon and a soldier, Adolin likely has been “educated” to lead and part of that is to show interest in others. It’s clever to coment on what is obviously a passion for Shallan but not necessarily genuine.
He trailed off, cocking his head to get a better look at her sketch.
“Storms! That’s really good, Shallan.”
“Thanks.”
“No, I mean really good”
She’d done a quick sketch of several types of chrysalises she had read about in her books, along with quick depictions of a man beside them for size reference. It wasn’t very good – she’d done it for speed. Yet Adolin seemed genuinely impressed.
Adolin is genuinely impressed by her art and he comments on the quality of it before the content. She made the sketches simply to have his opinion on the chrysalises, not for him to compliment her. He was not simply being nice or polite. Being nice and polite does not dictate he has to put the emphasis, not once, but twice on how good he thought her drawings were.
Now here is Kaladin looking at Shallan’s drawings later on:
He stepped closer, looking over her shoulder as she drew. “Strata,” he said. “You’re counting the strata of crem to guess how old the rock is.”
Not a word on her art so to speak, he only asked about what she drew.
Later on, down in the chasm, he comments on the accuracy of the map and he was impressed at her memory, he did not so much comment on the beauty or the quality of it.
In other words, Kaladin was interested in the objects of Shallan’s drawing and the accuracy of it, never in it as being an art form. Adolin is the one to point that out. So if we are to run a comparison between the two characters, I shall think the text at hand makes it rather clear Adolin is the one to appreciate Shallan’s artistic for what they are: art. Whereas Kaladin sees it for its use. The difference is not huge, but it is another argument in favor of Adolin as he would be more apt, in the long run, to appreciate this aspect of Shallan as before being a scholar, she is an artist.
I also suspect Adolin’s mother was an artist as well, which would explain why one of her sons seems to have an eye for it.
@46
It was in one of the reread comments here that I read someone complaining about Brandon discussing about fashion in the Stormlight Archive. I don’t remember which one.
I am not surprised that many who read fantasy book find discussion of fashion as part of world building as frivolous. Yet, if you look at it, what people are wearing is as important as what swords they are wielding. That Brandon Sanderson had made fashion a central theme in the Stormlight Archive is to be commended. I am unsure what research he did. But, I sure would like to know where he got his ideas because the costumes in Roshar are pretty imaginative.
Now, back to why I believe Adolin is a proto-radiant. In WoR, right before Adolin fought or dueled Eshonai, he began seeing the killing of the singing Parshendi as “dirty work”. He also lost the thrill.
Now, think of Dalinar. He lost the thrill and found killing with his shardblade distasteful even before Sadeas’ betrayal in WoK. I think this is a good indication that Adolin is changing. Whether he is going to be a radiant or an anti-hero, I don’t know. It depends on Brandon.
Adolin can easily be the champion of the Radiants to fight the forces of Odium. Or that Adolin will weild the Honor Blade left by Seth. I also believe that Adolin will face Seth one more time.
But, what I really want to see is for Adolin to be the one who will “wake up” the spren who lost their minds on the day of Recreance. According to Pattern, these spren are not truly dead. Regaining their minds is still a possibility.
There are only 10 orders of Radiants. Currently we have Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renaren and Jasnah. Then there is Lift (Edgedancer). And there is Ym (I’m unsure if he died or not) and Rysn (currently recovering from two broken feet and legs). Seth, I believe is also a Radiant now. So, we have 6 (confirmed) plus 3 (unconfirmed). That leaves one more. Will Brandon surprise us with a new character? Oh, we should not forget Elhokar and Navani as playing more important roles than just supporting characters.
All of these things considered, Adolin is becoming more and more a central figure in the changing world of Roshar.
@49: I do not recall the discussion where people complained about Brandon talking about fashion. It did not feel it was such a predominant part of Stormlight Archive. Some level of discussion about the various cultures dressing code is required for proper world-building as long as it does not over shadowed the main story arc. For instance, Robert Jordan tended to put a bit too much emphasis on it. The story could have done with a bit less. Brandon, so far, has been tasteful in that regards.
Adolin losing the Thrill is, I believe, part of his progression arc in WoR. It was a progressive endeavor and if you read Adolin’s chapters, and only his, in a consecutive manner, it becomes more obvious. For instance, in his first duel, he failed prey to the Thrill and he behaved rather brutally. He did not feel so good about himself afterwards and more importantly, he was literally drained. In other words, Adolin went for the sprint when he is built for longer distances, so of course, he exhausted himself. Later on, when fighting the Parshendis with Jakamav, he has to fight the Thrill down in order to talk to Eshonai. Despite the evil Thrill, he is able to see she was welcoming and truly wanted to talk, he also knew his father would want this chance which gave him the strength to fight back the Thrill to manage to talk to her. In his subsequent duels, he progressively let go of the Thrill. It comes to taunt him, but he refuses to give him such as to keep a clear head: Adolin Kholin, dueling prince, had a task at hand and would not be distracted by anything. It accumulated to the last fight where he suddenly notice the absence of Thrill. He felt tired, from his own admission. The battle had just started, so had you exhausted yourself before that faithful day Adolin? Anyhow, he kept his clear head and it prompt him to devise the winning strategy which was to use the hollow rock formation to attack from behind. Once there, he started to the task of killing all singers, which were his orders. He stopped in the middle of it, disgusted by the seer horror of his own actions and when he tried to summon the Thrill to help him turn a blind eye to the warfare, he couldn’t. He felt nauseous, he trembled and he dropped his Blade in the middle of the battlefield. So yes Adolin Kholin, soldier and war leader, dropped his weapon during the scope of battle because he could not stomach the butchery. Even Dalinar did not go so far.
I’d thus say that yes, the progressive manner by which he let go of the Thrill does mean something. He seemed to have been the only incapacitated man out there. It was just him. Brandon never writes a story arc if it is not relevant, so we can be sure Adolin not feeling the Thrill is relevant, in some manner.
I personally do not see Adolin as an anti-hero: he is too set on protecting his family and caring for them to be an anti-hero. I would more see Szeth falling within this role. There is no indication as to whether Szeth will become a Radiant or not. One of the only reason people name him as such is because he has a book scheduled, and the book characters have, so far, always been Radiants. There are many reasons why Szeth may/should not become a Radiant, one of them being he has just caused too much evil. I would rather see him fall within a dark hero role where he is never good and never evil either, but no Radiant, just the wielder of Nightblood.
We are supposed to get 10 main protagonists but Brandon never said they would be the 10 members of the Orders… The fact that characters such as Szeth, Eshonai, Taln and Shalash are set to become one of the 10 indicates the 10 are not all Radiants. Brandon also stated he first created the orders, he then fitted the characters to it and not the opposite. Adolin is a character that came late to the story. He died in the first draft of WoK. His story arc changed mostly because Brandon felt Dalinar’s dilemma needed an outside perspective to be more poignant, so he included Adolin in to have him reflect on it and it worked. Hence Adolin survived the first book and got a better arc in the second book, but it is clear he has never been part of the outlay of SA. We have sufficient WoB to confirm this. Renarin was the important brother (the geeky introverted kid is always important, so who cares about the outgoing social one?). Adolin was the one to die. This was clear since the beginning. So what will Brandon do with Adolin now? It is unsure. He can’t really back down with the character now, he has to push forward. People expect to read more about Adolin, but he still is not part of the 10 major protagonists. What place is there left for him in the story? I have no idea.
Elhokar and Navani are likely to remain side characters. Brandon has already announced so many future main characters, there is no place for additional ones. I would thus doubt very much these two would end up getting much more page time. Adolin may be the only one who may make the cut simply because he is well loved in the fandom and he just works so well within the story, but even he is unsure. I hope he is becoming more central, but the fact Brandon does not plan on giving him a book tells me Adolin will remain slightly to the side. If he’s a Radiant, he’ll be a redundant one, the second fiddle to Lift who is the major Edgedancer. Is there room for two? I do not know, but probably not, unless Brandon finds a new role for Lift other than presenting the order. In any advent, Adolin is not one of the 10 planned Radiant to have a focus book and this is the saddest news of all.
@48 Gepeto: Although I don’t necessarily disagree, a minor point I would like to point out – strictly speaking, Kaladin is not really equipped to comment on whether or not she’s artistic, not nearly to the same degree Adolin would be. While it’s true neither need to know art by Alethi standards, Adolin would still have been exposed to a lot more just from witnessing what lighteyed women do: they even have art competitions at banquets, which Adolin would at least see even if he didn’t pay much attention to. Kaladin’s experience with art basically starts and ends with diagrams, so of course his sense of it wouldn’t be as sharp. Just from Adolin’s experience of being around it, as well as maybe general etiquette, he would definitely have an advantage in this regard. Adolin knows it’s genuinely good and comments as so, twice even, but Kaladin doesn’t really have that ability, so of course he doesn’t say so. He can’t.
@50
WOW!!! You must be really invested in this thing. :-) I thought I was a super fan simply because I read the two books once and listened to both audio books at least twice for each plus all the “re-listen” to chapters. LOL
Anyway, I don’t mind if Adolin does not get a book. He pretty much got the same screen time as the main characters in both WoK and WoR. So, I’m happy about that. Now, if he dies in the middle of the series, that will really break my heart.
You will laugh at this but I feel that Adolin is “mine”. LOL It’s illogical and I don’ t have any basis for saying that. But, from the first book, I just felt he is mine. Like Syl who claimed Kaladin, I’ve claimed Adolin for myself. And of course, I’m the only on who knows it.
I just hope that Adolin continues to get a lot of screen time. Personally, I don’t want him to be a radiant. I just want him to be himself. And continue being himself.
As for Szeth, he was already invested by one of the Heralds and given the justice blade. Maybe that is not being a Radiant because a prerequisite of being a Radiant is bonding a spren.
As for Renaren, I hope his personality improves. To quote Shallan, “He is whiny and creepy.”
@51: I have to agree Adolin most presumably had the advantage of having indirectly being exposed to art. However, I still maintain my point he did not need to put so much emphasis on Shallan’s art, in fact he did not even have to say a thing. Both Navani and Jasnah, women whom have no doubt been immersed in arts, barely acknowledge her art is worth something. Jasnah even completely dismiss it up until Shallan drew something of interest to her, namely a picture of herself. We have many people seeing Shallan’s art without saying any word: Adolin was by far the most expressive. In other words, he had absolutely no reasons or incentive to comment on her art other then him genuinely finding it… very good which we know it was.
Adolin also likes fashion and is often seen to comment on what the other young men chose to wear. He is known to have an eye for it and he admits missing being able to “craft himself a style out of nothing to fit his mood” or something along those lines. That’s being creative. For me, it is undeniable Adolin does have artistic tendencies. He may not be able to draw or paint, but he has an eye and an interest for it. Who knows, had Adolin been allowed to draw, perhaps he would have turned out being half-decent at it. We will never know.
We could also indicate how Adolin enjoys dueling which truly is a dance (dancing is a form of art) around one’s opponent. Dalinar, back in WoK, comment on his son stating he was an “genius with a Blade, an artist”.
As for Kaladin, I agree he sure never had the occasion to nurture any interest towards art. It is possible commenting on it does not come naturally to him. However, upon hearing Adolin suggest potential dates such as sculpture contests and art exhibits, he snorts internally. It is clear that whereas these activities have never been available to him before, he has no interest in them now. He did not think to himself: “Lucky lighteyes, I wish I could see these things”, he thought: “These are dumb.”. It is clear to me Kaladin is not the kind of man to interest himself in anything he sees as futile and sadly art is one of those things. He enjoys Shallan’s drawing when it has a direct use.
We could argue Kaladin too is a dancer with is spear, but I do not recall him being described with the same terms. Kaladin never dueled either and just wants to be soldier. Adolin is a duelist before being a soldier, in fact, he never wanted to be one.
So, between Kaladin and Adolin, one is a soldier, one is a duelist. One is extremely focus on his task, one likes to have his thoughts wander on futility. Of both characters, it is obvious, to me, Adolin is much more artistic inclined than Kaladin and this is something he can share/understand with Shallan. Kaladin would never be able to truly appreciate Shallan’s artistic nature, not to the same extend as Adolin. So it is false to think Adolin and Shallan have nothing in common (a common argument against the ship) and it is false to think Kaladin’s mind is more suited to Shallan’s.
@52: I’d just say I’ve been around.
I want Adolin to get a book, because the first two books on Kaladin/Shallan were amazing. I’d love if he could get the same and I feel the character is strong enough for it, stronger perhaps than many who are getting one.
I also feel that Adolin being true to himself means he will become a Radiant as there is nowhere else for him to go. His true self is one of a very sensitive, deeply caring person ready to sacrifice everything for the others. That’s the inside Adolin, the one he hides. Once he’ll let it shine, Radiant will be the only possibility or death.
The Herald talking to Szeth seems crazy as has founded a group of false Skybreaker. He is also guilty of assassinating surgebinders on falsified claims, so I would say he is not a good person, but this is beyond the point. Nale does not get to decide who gets a spren, the sprens do and as of yet, Szeth has none.
My eyes just glaze over the multiple walls of text in worship of Adolin and other walls of text that seek to “prove” that there can’t possibly be any attraction between Kaladin and Shallan, despite clear indications in WoR that something is going on between them..
Well, none of us other than Brandon know where this is going, but to those who want to convince themselves that a Kaladin-Shallan ship is impossible, I offer the following response by Brandon in the WoR signing Report, March 19, 2014, Question 8 (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#8):
To which a 17th Shard poster (Emerald101) offered the following observation:
Maybe. Or maybe not. But perhaps we’ll see another wall of text “proving” that Brandon can’t possibly bring Shallan together with Kaladin instead of our hero Adolin.
This exchange centering on Adolin vis-a-vis Shallan and Kaladin has been interesting. Despite Gepeto’s exclamations about how the ‘community’ is largely nvested in Kaladin and his potential relationship with Shallan, I appear to be the only proponent thus far in the current Reread. That’s fine with me, and a sign that the author has created a number of sufficiently interesting characters that have been adopted by the readers.
I would only add a few points to my previous brief analysis of the above characters. Adolin has many attractive features. He is brave, loyal, friendly, and extremely capable in things that interest him such as dueling and battle. He is also self-confident (no, Gepeto, its not a front) but at a loss on how to deal with eligible women. His problem with maintaining such relationships appears to involve a lack of real interest in those he has courted prior to Shallan, which can give the impression of being self-centered, and his tendency to be distracted in such pursuit by a roving eye. That is manifested in this chapter where he winks at one serving maid and stares at the rear end of another in the presence of his would-be fiancee, Shallan. It should be remembered that the high-born women that Adolin has courted do not view themselves as appendages to their husband to be. In Alethi high society, women play a key role in that they are the educated ones who can send and receive written messages, keep the family records, and even become the societies engineers. If a suitor appears to show a certain lack of interest, he won’t last long. Shallan, herself, is torn between the desires of her head and heart. She has entered the relationship in order to connect to the powerful Kholin family and thereby provide a safe haven for herself and her brothers. Her primary goal, however, remains to fulfill Jasnah’s desire to find Urithiru and to banish the Parshmen. But she is enthralled by the very handsome Adolin and his smile. Adolin’s willingness to share some intimate details, and to frankly discuss the political situation and the Kholin plans can only cement that budding relationship.
@53 Gepeto: Adolin has no reasons or incentive to tell Shallan her art is good? You mean…besides complimenting his date?
Admittedly, this was past the part where the two decided to be quite genuine with each other, but just because he could be genuine in his praise doesn’t mean it also isn’t part of the date. It’s the great date where you can genuinely tell the person something of their work is good!
Now is Adolin more artistic than Kaladin? My first instinct is to agree with you wholeheartedly that he is – Kaladin has always struck me as a function more than form kind of guy. Of course, looking back I do remember one time he praised someone artistically: Tien’s wooden horse. Which was followed by Tien and Kaladin going to the army, and we saw how that turned out. It might even be fair to say that any ability Kaladin had to appreciate art died with Tien. And he hasn’t showed any since, except the few times it’s dragged out of him, like when Hoid pulls Kaladin in with his storytelling (of course magic is at play there as well). Oh and so does Shallan if you count wordplay I guess, but Adolin also does wordplay with her, if not as adeptly. Wordplay clearly isn’t the same level of art as sketching, of course, but I’d argue it is a creative process, even if we tend to use it to get people to groan instead of to move them to tears.
Which means, while Kaladin isn’t equipped at all to deal with judging Shallan’s art, he’s able to engage with her on a deeper level of wordplay than Adolin, one of the only artistic outlets Alethi males can have.
Admittedly, it feels kind of cheap to call the few games of wordplay Kaladin engages in with Shallan the same as Adolin genuinely commenting on how good her quick sketches are during their date.
My super long-winded point is that, while I instinctively wanted to agree with you about Adolin being more artistic, after thinking about it I come back to this sticking point that it’s a pretty unfair point to judge their aptitude on. Adolin has the advantage in having his life in experience exposed to all the possible arts of the lighteyes, both observing the female ones and being able to participate in the ones male Alethi can participate in without being ardents (like dueling which you pointed out, and which Shallan was enraptured by when she watched Adolin compete). Yet, even if people don’t like the wordplay, Shallan very clearly connects with Kaladin over it – which means there’s something artistic (if a lesser form of artistry) Shallan and Kaladin can directly connect over, which Adolin and Shallan don’t really have – they can appreciate each other’s art but that’s it.
Wow that ended up taking longer than I thought it would. I want to tack on one “little” addendum though: I don’t ship Shallan with either Kaladin or Adolin. Kaladin because there really isn’t enough there, and Adolin because I’m not sold on their relationship yet. Partially because there’s still a bit too much emphasis on looks throughout for my taste (which is fine and is mostly my bias coming through), but also because both Shallan and Adolin feel a bit too dedicated and desperate to make sure the relationship will work. Relationships do require work of course – I’m not saying they shouldn’t – but it feels like at least in Words of Radiance it’s a little too much too early.
Which is why I’m waiting on book 3.
@54: I am aware of the WoB where Brandon compared Kaladin/Shallan’s reaction to the weeping to him and his wife, but I do not consider this to be an argument to put forward in a discussion on the matter. It proves nothing. Brandon as an author also inspired himself with his wife whom suffered from depression to write Kaladin as it is customary for authors to look into real life people they know to find inspiration. The WoB simply meant both character reactions was something he added based on his personal life, but it does not mean he is projection his marriage within those characters, especially since Brandon has also stated on several occasions he has not written himself into any book. So Kaladin is not Brandon and Shallan is not his wife. There is no parallel to be made except for this one feature which does not imply anything.
@55: By community, I did not mean simply the Tor.com reread. If you go browse on the 17th Shard for instance, the community over there is widely in favor of the Kaladin/Shallan ship. The Tor.com perhaps seems more even and if you browse on Tumblr, well nobody supports any canon-made ship, but this is a different story. Reddit, I believe, also widely supports the Kaladin/Shalla ship. The Tor.com reread arguably is the one place where I have fond the most support for the Adolin/Shallan ship which makes me wonder about the demography and if it is for something. So fear not, you are far from alone in your ship. It may be one of the reasons I have grown so insistent in my argumentation: I have read so little support for it I feel compel to add as much as I can.
I think I badly explained what I meant when I stated Adolin did not have as much self-confidence as he put out. He does have self-confidence, but at the same time he doubts himself when he shouldn’t. From his own admission, he states he is not always as confident as he looks, but he put it up such as to avoid worrying his family. He says so himself on several occasions, so yes it is a front. However, it does not mean he has no self-confidence, it means he does not have as much as he lets on. He has his own issues, but he rarely let them surface and yes Adolin does not have much confidence when it comes to his courtships. They fail, he does not understand why, it is starting to get to him.
Adolin is also a very emotional person: when he is happy and excited, he booms self-confidence, but when is stressed, he lacks it. Simple roller-coaster.
@56: He did not have to praise it as much. She was not asking him about his opinion on it. There is more to play here then is being let on.
I will certainly not dispute the fact Kaladin is better at word play than Adolin as it is rather obvious, however I do not thin word play has much to be with being artistic. I guess we would need to ask what the other readers think on it as I would not classify it as an artistic trait, but you do. So I am now puzzled by it.
It is undeniable Adolin is bad at it, which is also why he is bad at humor. He is bad at making it and he is bad at understanding it. There is no harm there I think. The Kaladin/Shallan horrible banter (I hated reading it) makes me think their relationship, shall it come to pass, would be one where they would fight and argue, all the time. Everybody would get tire of this after a while. Adolin and Shallan are able to have a discussion without having to constantly prove who is the smartest. In the long run, I sincerely believe these two would make the happier couple than Kaladin and Shallan which I am unable to picture, say 10-20 years down the road….
I do agree we should wait and see as I do agree the Adolin/Shallan ship is set for a few rocky waves. I even foresee a break-up, but in the end, I do believe they are the best union.
@53
Adolin does not have to be a Radiant to do something fantastic. If he becomes the Champion who will fight Odium’s champion, then Adolin stays true to himself (a duelist, a warrior, someone who cares for his people) and he does not have any of the magic that the Radiants have.
Adolin can be the sacrificial lamb, but I hope it does not happen until the end of the series. He is so set up for that, sad to say. A well-liked character with a dark side, there are so much room for development in Adolin. And if Shallan and him become the couple in this one, if Adolin dies in the end, it will break a lot of people’s heart (including mine) but it will also give us a good cry.
We are only in book 2. I believe Brandon and his team are reading what fans are writing in all the forums. I hope Brandon finds a way for Adolin to stay until the end.
Also, I wish that Adolin will be the one to wake up the spren who were lost during the Day of Recreance. I don’t know how Brandon can do it. I just hope that Brandon finds a way so that those spren can come back. And if Adolin does it, then he will be the true hero of the spren world. :-)
Sheiglagh @49. Unless I misread your post (and if I did I apologize), you imply that Rysn is on her way to be a Knight Radiant. What textual support do you have for that belief? As of the end of WoR, there is nothing (IMO) to support the position that Rysn is a proto KR. Just because the Great Shell/Island somehow slowed her fall, I do not think that qualifies. She might be lucky (to survive the fall), but that does not equate with establishing a Nahel Bond with a spren.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@59
Rysn was saved by a spren and now she has a Larkin with silver eyes. I am unsure if the Larkin is the spren who saved Rysn but a spren was definitely involved. :-)
@60 sheiglagh, while you may be correct in your anticipation of Rsyn’s future, she is not yet a Radiant. Her being saved by a Greatshell/island spren from her great fall could be a one-time event. The larkin that she was given is a physical entity – not a spren. From the Lift interlude, we see that it removes surgebinding power rather than conferring it (akin to the effect of a mistborn ingesting aluminum in the Mistborn series). Your other conjectured Radiant candidates are also unsubstantiated or no longer possible. Ym has been killed by Nalan, and Nalan’s resurrection of Szeth does not make him a Radiant (only a higher spren can do that). Lift is, however, a surgebinder if not an imminent Radiant.
@58: I personally doubt the champion story plot will be used and if it ever is, I doubt the “champion” will be a simple duelist, no matter how awesome. Let’s be frank, WoR has highlighted how useless Adolin set of current skills is against surgebinding. Adolin fighting Odium’s champion would be a massacre as without stormlight, his whole skill is irrelevant. He is not quick enough, he is not strong enough, he does not have enough endurance because he’ll be fighting someone who does. He can’t. No way a mere human will defeat Odium.
Sadly, Adolin’s story arc has been set for him to be the son Dalinar will have to sacrifice. He is the nice one, the good one, but also the one who messed up. He is not introverted, he does not seem to have a troubled past, he is not geeky nor awkward, he is not an under-dog: basically he is absolutely nothing fantasy tends to bring forward in terms of a main protagonist. He is just nice and caring, exactly the kind of character that bites the dust. I hope it won’t happen, but I fear it will.
As for Adolin not being a Radiant, at times, it fear it would be better to simply kill the character… In a world where every single person is a Radiant, his story arc would become rapidly boring, I fear. What would he do in a Desolation where his skill set is useless? What would his place be in a story centered on the progress of a bunch of Radiants? Adolin, I believe is interesting as the reluctant Radiant, the one who was not chosen, but manages to get on that journey by pure stubbornness and care for a dead-Blade everyone else has shun away as being an atrocity. He is interesting as the one with a relatively happy childhood, the one who was not broken, but ultimately cracks under the pressure mostly because the armor he built himself as a child to make him go forward while watching his beloved mother died, his beloved father go depressed with a sick little brother he had to be strong for in tow ends up drowning him. He is interesting as the character we see break down under our own eyes not knowing if he’ll rise up as opposed to read all of those flashbacks knowing full well the ending before they even started. He is interesting as the character still looking for his journey as opposed to one already there. He is interesting as the one who has to prove himself beyond measure simply to be allowed to have a Nahel bond as opposed to have it fall on him by pure happenstance. Bottom line is, he is interesting as a great many things, but remaining the sole human in a war of Radiants would imply having shrink down to a side character such as Navani, one with little power and little capacity to do anything worth doing to save humanity. Compared to what Adolin’s story plot could be, him remaining human seems very boring and poor in character development.
I also agree with the later comments on Rysn. She is not a Radiant nor a proto-Radiant. There is no indication she is either thing and as others pointed out, she has a larkin, not a spren. The only proto-Radiants we know for sure as Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah and Lift.
@@@@@ Gepeto
I’m guessing you may not have read the Rhythmatist? Brandon and many other authors absolutely love to use non-powered humans with nothing but will and skill against super-powered demi-gods in Sci-Fi and Fantasy novels (The Codex Alera by Jim Butcher also comes to mind).
It’s usually the Badass Normals surrounded by the demi-gods that make far more interesting characters, not the other way around. That’s why Batman is so popular and “good” superman stories are rare unless they focus entirely on the people around him.
While Adolin may have started out just as a character to be sacrificed, one of the best bets against it is just how often Sanderson loves tweaking or entirely subverting tropes. It’s almost too obvious to be used at this point. Even if he does die, it’s unlikely to be in the same manner he originally envisioned.
@63: Actually, I did read the Rithmatist, but I haven’t thought of making the parallel, so thanks for pointing it out. However, the Rithmatist main protanogist is Joel, our powerless nerd who loves drawing lines so much he ends up an asset to struggling Melody. The story is adorable and it works very well.
Stormlight Archive has a different structure in the sense each book is dedicated to a Radiant order. Each book features one flashback character (who may or may not be a Radiant, we do not know just yet) and one main Radiant character. The entire story is geared towards the return of the Radiants. The purpose of each book is to further explore those unknown Radiants. Keeping this in mind, I am unsure what place there is left to explore the one character left behind, who despite being the nicest selfless person in the entire cast is still not good enough for the Radiants… I also fear it would be very difficult to justify, in the long run, why Adolin does not get chosen… unless he becomes he complete mess which I am not sure would be all that interesting to read. The fact is I also am simply unable to imagine how Adolin the human could evolve into an interesting non secondary character. It may be a failure on my part, but considering all that is at stake, I just think Adolin remaining human would equate him not evolving, staying the same, being static, which may not be the case, but I can’t see it any other way.
Batman also is the hero of his story. He does not suffer from being the side-kick. Adolin is not the hero of Stormlight Archive, Kaladin is and if not Kaladin, Radiants are. Adolin the human will always be the side-kick, will never get the spotlight, will forever be a second rate character which is not a fate I wish for a character I enjoy reading. Is there really a future for him as a simple man?
I know Brandon likes to subverts his tropes, but he has not done it in Stormlight Archive, so far. I hope to see some subversion in book 3.
I do not know how Adolin initially died, but I suspect it was in battle: having him die without a fight would be the worst… Very anti-climatic. I still think Adolin is the number one suspect for self-sacrificing himself for his family, the heroic death. It can’t be anyone else then him. I sincerely hope this is not where he is going, but I truly see two possibilities: Radiant or dead. I may suffer from a lack of imagination here, so you could justly call me out for it.
It is just hard to know your favorite character is the most likely to get shrink back down to side character or worst to end up dead.
@61 Thanks!!! for the info on Ym and Rysn. I concede about Ym and Rysn. :-)
As for larkin negating Stormlight, this is huge in my eyes. There is Kryptonite for Radiants and Rysn being a trader, she will bring it to Alethkar. It just made things interesting.
@62 I still believe in Adolin and I think he still has a lot of room to grow even if he is not a Radiant. In Wheel of Time, Min has no magic and just have an ability to see the future. She became a very important character, more important than Aviendha at times. Second example is Joel in The Rithmatist. He has no magical ability but he was the hero in the book. And just a tangent note – Melody, the girl has red hair!!! When I read The Rithmatist, I thought of Joel and Melody as the YA version of Adolin and Shallan. Ha! Ha! I should really put up a fan club Shallan and Adolin Forever. LOL
@63 – Thanks for the Rithmatist comment. I thought I was the only one who remember it. :-)
Re: normal vs. super-powered
Not to mention, the whole starting premise of BWS’s Reckoners series is that there are no super-powered good guys; power inherently corrupts. It’s more complicated than that (it always is), but that’s still the heart of the story.
@66 Yes, I forgot about David and Megan at The Reckoners series. David is just human and Megan is an epic. In Mistborn, Vin has the magic while Elend, her love interest who happens to be a nobleman, the son of the most powerful noble in the land has no magic.
“It’s a pattern!!!” says Pattern. I really hope Adolin stays until the end of the series and not die early.
I am not stating a normal character cannot be the hero of a story where magic powers exist, but Stormlight Archive is a story where the heroes are the magic ones. We are getting at least 10 major ones of those. In that optic, what room is there left for someone like Adolin to grow if he does not make the jump and becomes one of them?
As for him dying, I am unsure what I will do. I will most likely come to the conclusion this is how fantasy stories are undeniably written: characters need to be part of a selected few tropes to have a chance to be featured. I will be horribly deceived a prolific author such as Brandon has not taken a chance on subverting that specific trope.
@68 Gosh, you sound like Kaladin! Cheer up. Brandon and his assistants read this forum.,I saw it in Brandon’ blog via Facebook. They already know that Adolin is well liked. And since Brandon is still writing Book 3, so nothing is definite yet until that book is published.
Did you read Mistborn? Elend was a secondary character in the first book. Vin and Kelsier dominated, Elend, like Adolin just happened to be the son of the most important man in the realm. Elend has no magic and no special ability except that he was trained to rule and take over his father. That Elend was given magic later on was beside the point in my eyes. That was just how the story went. Elend was an important character though he is just a normal human and has no magic.
I believe in Brandon. He is a prolific writer. And yes, I know that he listens. In general, authors listen to their readers. If you want proof, just check out at Amazon or Goodreads about “Grey” LOL That book was totally written for the fans. Brandon is not E.L. James but they share one thing in common. Both are successful writers.
So Gepeto, don’t be like Kaladin and brood. Be like Shallan and be an optimist. :-)
I second sheiglagh’s comment about Adolin’s future and her use of Elend in the Mistborn trilogy as a model for Adolin in this series. I see Adolin ultimately gaining surgebinding power, much as Elend gained enhanced Mistborn power after being fed that lerasium bead while mortally wounded. Your focus on Adolin has at least deepened my appreciation of the character. In contrast to your assessment of his earlier years, however, I find that he experienced serious family problems starting with his younger brother’s ‘illness’, his mother’s death, his father never again mentioning her, and his father whom he idolized showing increasingly strange behavior. It’s enough to depress a teen-ager/young adult, but he remains cheerful, self-confident, and loyal. While his earlier experiences and reactions were not comparable to that of Shallan, they are not altogether different either. That would make for a deeper bond should they have such a conversation about their past. It seems that Adolin will be going through a difficult period in the aftermath of his killing of Sadeas. I imagine that Dalinar will feel compelled to have his son exiled (or Elhokar will do so). That would place him in ever-present danger from the Voidbringers. That may force both Shallan and Kaladin to join him. Shallan, out of love and Kaladin, out of friendship and his constant feeling of responsibility. We’ll see how it actually plays out in Sanderson’s mind and ‘pen’.
@68 Gepeto: I don’t think you should feel horribly deceived if Sanderson doesn’t subvert that trope: he’s already done so in other stories, but sometimes a trope played straight is so much stronger than subverting it for the sake of having done so.
I guess spoilers for Warbreaker follow: my absolute favorite character in that book, and possibly my favorite Sanderson character ever, is Lightsong. And Lightsong’s entire story is pretty clear where it’s going, Sanderson even mentions as much in the Annotations on his website for Warbreaker. But just because Lightsong is basically designed to sacrifice himself to save they day doesn’t stop the final two scenes with him from being some of the strongest Sanderson has ever written.
You may feel heavily invested in Adolin, but that doesn’t mean that his possible death in the future needs to ruin your enjoyment of the series: strap in for the ride and see where Sanderson takes us all, and trust in him to deliver great moments for Adolin, even if one of them is a heart-wrenching, tear-jerking death scene.
Oh sorry. I did not mean to sound like Kaladin… Enough depressing then. Elend is a good point, but he makes me think so much of Renarin, the parallel would better be drawn between these two than Elend and Adolin. Adolin, I have never met his parallel in any other books I have read, which is probably why I like him so much, that and being able to strongly relate to his personal issues.
@70: I agree Adolin’s past was not a walk in the park, but he seems so unscatted by it. Why? My thoughts have always been Adolin built himself an armor of sorts to avoid him from feeling too much pain: he chose to be the strong one and he took it all on himself. However, one person’s capacity to cope is limited and I suspect it will all burst at some point… it does bear some similarity to Shallan’s… Not that Adolin forgot, he didn’t, but he refused to be broken by it. How does a child do this? By forging himself a persona made of strength to hide the pain inside or so are my thoughts and it fits with the text at hand where we have inklings this may have happened.
I expect an emotional overload from Adolin where everything is going to burst in a rather explosive way.
I love the idea of Adolin in exile being rescued/followed by both Shallan and Kaladin.
I am glad my argumentation on Adolin helped some readers craft themselves a deeper opinion of him. He is just that awesome.
I believe that much of the events unfolding in SA 3 will take place outside of Urithiru. Kaladin, after leaving his birthplace town with whomever – if anyone, may well head for Kholinar since it is closer and has people who can be rescued. Jasnah and Hoid may head for a different Oathgate city. The object in each case would be to rescue as many as possible and to open the Oathgate It is not clear that an ‘ordinary’ Radiant can open the sealed Oathgates, but Hoid probably has a way (his sword is probably more potent than even a sprenblade). The point is that humanity outside Urithiru appears to be doomed unless they can get to that sanctuary. That first Everstorm passage and the Voidbringers in its wake would have already caused serious depradations to humanity in Roshar, and it will continue to return. The Radiants in Urithiru need to leave for rescue missions, once stability there has been achieved. if Elhokar, rises to the occasion, he would free Dalinar to leave together with Shallan. In any case, they may join Adolin who is likely to be exiled due to his slaying of Sadeas. Lift will probably survive by virtue of her ability to slip away from danger (if she can shelter from the storm). Her caring instinct, however, will complicate her finding an Oathgate. Rsyn may not be a Radiant, but she has that Larkin for protection against the transformed Aimian (Axies?) in that Reshi ‘island’.
@73: Hoid in unlikely to remain with Jasnah or to have a significant role in the series, so I would bar this out. In any advent, what you are suggesting seems too predictable. I have other ideas as to how Kaladin’s story line could develop…
As for Adolin, the exile story plot is not great, in my opinion, especially since Brandon did state he did have legitimate ground to justify himself, should he try to do such thing. Adolin in exile will probably resumes itself by him leaving the main narrative all together, which I do not want. I am a firm believer the main narrative is better with Adolin in it than without him. The conflict between father and son is more poignant if Adolin remains around, disgraced, then with him doing I do not know what it the far far world.
Any way, what I wish for the next book is for Adolin to grow as a character, to earn his own personal story line instead of always playing the second fiddle to Kaladin/Dalinar. I want him to the hero of his own arc. WoR was great for him in terms of character development but a few points have left me sadden. The 4 on 1 duel which was heavily foreshadowed (we guess early on something bad will happen to the dueling spree), but it turned being a moment for Kaladin and not Adolin The lack of Adolin’s POV following this event was also telling the main protagonist here is Kaladin and not Adolin, even though dueling is Adolin’s own special thing. I was also unsatisfied by the lack of Adolin’s POV following the bridge assassination attempt: he had just watch the girl he had just admitted he loved fall to her death by his own fault… I thought it deserved at least one POV: we have several of Kaladin sitting in prison which could have been resumed into one or two. The entire chasm story arc could have been reduced as well… to include a few Adolin’s POV in between. These are minor complaints though as Adolin has boomed as a character despite these.
That being said, I guess I just want Adolin to keep on growing and to have his own moments that would not be stolen by either Kaladin or Dalinar or Renarin or anyone. Just Adolin’s moments tied to his own personal growth. After reading WoR, that’s what I want, so whatever story plot gives me that, I’ll probably be happy, though the exile one has me worried.
@74 We are in Book 2 Gepeto. :-) That means that there are a lot of chances when there will be an Adolin POV when the bridge fell towards the end of WoR. Adolin and Shallan might even discuss it. Remember, the ending of WoR actually left Adolin in a bad place. That has to be resolved.
Without sounding like a brat, I don’t know where everyone is getting that Brandon said that Adolin will die. I tried checking his website and also the forum there, but I did not see anything. Unless, it was in YouTube or something. He had not sent out any spoilers either as far as I know.
That said, Adolin’s story arc remains interesting. Whether Adolin will live or die depends on Brandon. I am not a fiction writer, yet even in the writing that I do, I have experienced that though I began with a certain line of thought, the ending article is different because my thought process changed as I was writing.
This might be TMI, but I’m actually a fashion writer. I’m a fashionista in real life. That is the reason why I love Adolin so much. Also, I am not sure about this, but a long time ago, after reading Warbreaker, I wrote Brandon if I can interview him about the costumes of Warbreaker. He did not have the time. He was busy with so many projects and then of course, Wheel of Time landed into his lap.
I might be wrong, though I would love to say that he remembered me and my request. It’s because he named Shallan’s lady’s maid Marri, I nearly fell off my chair when I read that part. That is a variation of my real name.
That is the reason why I said that Brandon reads what we write and he listens to us. :-) It’s still sad that I cannot even do an email interview about fashion with him. But you know what, it’s okay. A fashion write up is not high on a sci-fi fantasy writer’s list to grant an interview.
My dream though is if there is a movie or even a video game for Stormlight Archive, I really want to style the characters and I will claim Adolin as mine. I’ll fight for him with the other stylists.
So, cheer up. Nothing is written in stone yet. As for me, I would rather be surprised. Whether it will be a pleasant one or a heart breaking one, I would rather wait for it than be gloomy about it.
Smile!!!
@75: People have asked questions about Adolin… There has been people who asked to know more things about Adolin and the answer they receive was that Adolin initially died in the first draft of WoK and Renarin was the important brother (Why?) Another one got the answer Adolin’s role has been entirely re-written for SA as he initially did not have a big one, imo he died. So yes, in Brandon’s initial outlay for SA, Adolin was a very minor character who died prematurely. This is were, I believe, it come from. Another explanation is Adolin is the redundant character. The second he was introduced, the fandom knew immediately Renarin would become a Radiant and would gain importance. It was written in the sky as tropes call for the sick introverted kid to gain super-powers. Adolin? Adolin is just a jock and jocks always die. Before WoR was released, the nearly totality of the fandom thought he would die as he was useless as a character. So I’d say the general thought Adolin is going to die both sprouted from WoB and from the general impression his trope never is one that bodes well in the wonderful world of fantasy.
FYI, I stumbled on your personal page by pure happenstance today. I PM you, so go check your messages.
Brandon does listen: he is a wonderfully generous author but I doubt he will change a plot line because readers demand it. For instance, Shallarin was the most popular ship before WoR was released and we all saw where that went: to the sewers. It is undeniable the undying attention the Renarin/Shallan ship got did not change any of Brandon’s planning. The fact his small fandom used to be widely active did not prompt him to put more of Renarin into book 2 either… So yes, Brandon does listen, but how much will he changed his plans? That is unsure. Adolin however is an unplanned character who works well. My hopes are Brandon will keep on playing him because the story is better with him in it than without.
Hmmm…..I don’t really see the story line going with Adolin in exile….I think he’ll keep his mouth shut and no one will ever know who really killed Sadeas
@77: I think keeping his mouth shut would strongly clash with Adolin direct and honest personality. He is not secretive by nature, nor he is introspective. He will talk. The question is when.
Re: Brandon listening to the fans – Yes, he and his team keep up with the discussions of fandom, but Brandon isn’t likely to change the story itself to suit the desires or demands of the fans. His purpose is more to determine whether he’s given the wrong impression, or left something unclear… things like that. He may address something more deeply than he’d intended to clarify part of the magic or the worldbuilding, but he won’t kill a character – or keep him alive – just because that’s what he thinks the readers want. He starts with an outline and he knows where he’s planning to go with it; if that changes, it’s because the characters/plot demand it, not because the readers do.
@79: That’s pretty much what I thought… The fact there are many people who likes Adolin won’t save him if Brandon wants him dead. Adolin initially died and Renarin has always been the more important brother. The younger geeky introverted physically inapt brother is always the important one: this trope is so classic fans called Renarin out for being a Radiant years before WoR came out even though there was zero evidence of it. The same fans called Adolin out for being the next causality as he had “heroic death” stamped on his forehead since his first appearance.
How much of that Brandon has changed when he decided to use Adolin to better flesh out Dalinar’s inner dilemma? This is a question only Brandon can answer, but the fact he does not give him a book bodes really really bad for him.
@77, 79 and 80
If that is the case, then the time that Adolin could have died was at the Tower when Sadeas betrayed them. But, Brandon saved Adolin and gave him a big part at WoR. Brandon could have easily betrothed Shallan to Renaren since Adolin has way too many women in his life. Why Brandon chose to go for Shallan/Adolin just does not make sense to me if he plans to keep Adolin a minor character. At this point in time, Adolin has as much screen time as Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar though he has very little POV.
As for Renaren, I still don’ t feel anything for him even at this time. Shallan (which is basically Brandon) described him as “whiny and creepy”. I don’t think “whiny and creepy” is attractive even in geekdom. In short, Brandon has to work hard for Renaren to have a fan base. Gosh, I like Rock, Teft and the other Bridgemen more than I like Renaren. I’m trying to think of main characters who are late bloomers and I cannot think of any. Goodness gracious, Szeth has more fans than Renaren at this point in time.
Now, to change the topic, what do you think of Shallan being snubbed by the other women in the Shattered Plains. I thought it was hilarious.
Gepeto @80 – “…the fact he does not give him a book bodes really really bad for him.” Not necessarily. IIRC, Brandon had already mostly figured out who – or at least what type of characters – he wanted to use as the flashback characters, and that was largely determined by the history that is important to the “real-time” story arc. Making Adolin a flashback character wouldn’t best serve the story he’s telling, because Adolin’s backstory isn’t the one we need. That doesn’t say anything one way or the other about whether Adolin will be a major plot-driving character, or die, or something else we haven’t imagined yet. It’s just that Adolin’s backstory doesn’t give us the same kind of background that we’ll get from Shalash, or Taln, or Lift.
FWIW, it may also be a simple matter that Brandon wants to do a Renarin flashback sequence partly for the challenge of being in Renarin’s head, and there’s no point in doing both Adolin and Renarin; the information, while told from a different perspective, wouldn’t be all that different.
I feel like an outsider. A novice butting in on his elders by posting here. But I have a few thoughts I’d like to get of my chest.
Firstly, Shallan and romance. My feeling here is that she is enough of a free spirit to not entangle herself permanently to anyone. I feel that she might make the decision that her duties and the psychological strains of living all these lies; personas with outwardly very varying motivations; makes it impossible for her to tie herself up. And i don’t think that her final happiness has to be bound to “finding a man”. I get the feeling that it is mostly the novelty of it and her curiosity that fires her emotions. I think the powers of the lightweavers must make them quite lonely and to some extent mistrusted, and I think they develop quite hard skins and needs an emotional outlet that does not involve other people. Like Shallans drawing.
Then there is Adolin. I think we will see a darkening of his character. Maybe even a fall. The dynamic of the conflict is changing and his role is going to change with it. No matter how humble he might seem, I think there will be some resentment when just about everyone around him becomes a Radiant, and he will feel increasingly impotent. To make things worse he already have a very dark secret that will make things difficult for him. Considering this maybe his death is inevitable.
PS.
In addition to being a novice, English is also not my native language. Please excuse any errors I may have made.
DS.
@81: Actually the WoB about Adolin initially dying stated he died midway through WoK… so not even at the Tower. However, there is still a few unknowns with this specific WoB… Did Brandon meant Adolin died in the original version of the story, namely Way of Kings Prime where he was the completely different character of Aredor? Or did he mean he died in the first draft of WoK, the one he was asked to modify as Dalinar’s inner dilemma was hard to follow and he was advice to use another person to mirror it? He chose Adolin. Did he get to live then or before? These are things the WoB does not tell us.
I think Brandon did not betroth Shallan to Renarin simply because he knew these characters would never have any chemistry. The former Shallarin ship existed simply because a few fans distorted both Renarin and Shallan’s characters and turned them into personality that worked together, but weren’t theirs. To be fair, there was not much known of both characters after WoK so it was a difficult exercise, though Shallarin was a bad reading of Shallan: it pictured her as helpful, patient, calm, kind when she is eager, impatient and slightly arrogant (arrogant may not be the right word here, I meant she thinks highly of herself, she thinks she is smarter than most people or she has come to think she is, a fact confirmed by Brandon).
As for Adolin having little POV time, careful. He has little POV time when compared to Kaladin and Shallan, but he has more POV than Dalinar (by the end of WoR) and any other character. He is not a minor character, but the third character with the most POV. If his future was not so uncertain, if he had been listed as a flashback character, nobody would dispute the fact he is one of the important character.
Renarin has a huge formally very active fan base (mostly after WoK, after WoR, I think he lost a few). Seriously, I was equally surprised when I found out about it, but he is one of the most beloved character. Or perhaps not one of the most beloved character, but his supporters have been very vocal in the past and he has gotten a lot of attention despite being a very minor character. He is exactly what is popular right now on social medias such as Tumblr: autistic, introverted, awkward, geeky (supposedly, we have not seen a lot of him). A lot of people identify themselves to Renarin and he certainly have more fans than Szeth… Szeth has a few fans, but a great many more who do not like him at all. I wonder at times if Brandon’s decision to postpone Szeth flashbacks to book 5 was not in part driven by the strong dislike many people expressed about reading more about Szeth now… Giving two more books will give the readers two more books to get to enjoy reading him a bit more.
@82: From my perspective, I do not see what more information there was into Shallan’s background than Adolin. Her’s were clearly meant to give us a better insight as to who Shallan was, not to show us specific events. If that had been the case, we would have seen her murdering her mother… We learned nothing new through those, except how Shallan grew up and how her father was. There weren’t even much world-building involved… From that perspective, I do not understand why Adolin is less interesting than most of these characters. Plenty happened and it would give us insight as to who he is, which we are still not entirely sure of. Can he become a fully fleshed out character without those? Can we get to know Adolin without tackling some of his past? There are so many things in there… For instance, there is one aspect of having a family with a disabled child that is rarely talked about. Often, these stories focus on the disabled child and how he lived through it, his ordeal, but what about the other child? The one who is normal, healthy and strong? The one who, despite being just a child, is forced to comprehend beyond his years his sibling is different and this can be very hard… How does the other child cope in a family understandably focus on the needs to the handicap child? Nobody ever thinks of the “other” child… I wished Brandon would explore this with the Adolin/Renarin dynamic and it can only be seen from Adolin’s perspective.
Renarin’s perspective will never be complete and will never serve to explain his brother… I understand it may be a challenge for Brandon, but events tragic to little Renarin won’t be the same as for Adolin. And his perspective will never be complete. We are getting to know him, but are we getting to know his brother or the shell of his brother?
Also, I fail to understand why we need the background of every single other character to better understand them, but not Adolin. As if his background was not important. As if the fact his mother died, his father got depressed for years, his little brother was born sick and disabled did not happen as these are major events. Nobody walks out of such a life as if nothing ever happened and this is exactly what we are currently getting from Adolin: nothing ever happened. But things DID happen…
How is knowing Adolin as a character less important to the real-time story arc than knowing Shallan/Renarin/Lift (etc) if it is not for him biting the dust as some point?
@83: Shallan certainly is not looking for a man and her happiness certainly does not pass by it, but very few people want to spend their life in celibacy. The greater majority of people want, a given time in their life, their special someone. I do not think Shallan is an exception such as Jasnah. Whereas she does not need a man, it is fair to assume she will want a relationship, just as Adolin wants one.
We have not seen Adolin deal with hardships by being resentful: we have seen him work himself up to no end in order to improve himself. When he felt impotent after fighting Szeth, what did he do? He put on his Plate, he sat cross-legged in the corridor at his father’s door steps chewing ridgebark all night long despite being severely bruised all over. The following morning he went to practice throwing his Blade as he felt that move would have been useful. He utterly failed at controlling his Blade, an event I am still not convince does not mean something. In other words, impotent Adolin works harder. He stays up all night, he ignores his own injuries and he over-works himself until someone tells him to just lay down. Considering the fact he had just fall on his head and his left (or right) side was a mass of large purple bruises: he should have been in bed resting, not Blade throwing.
His death may be inevitable, but it would be a huge shame as his character has so much potential for growth, it would feel like a waste.
What’s your language?
@@@@@74, Gepeto: Totally agree with you about an Adolin POV after the bridge assassination. In my notes I even wrote “What?! No Adolin reaction? that’s all we get?” when they are reunited.
@@@@@ Several: wow y’all… sorry I missed this week’s discussion. Great walls of text.
Since work is still insane, can’t really respond more.
@83 Jesper, usually Alice (Wetlandernw) does this, but let me take the opportunity to welcome you to the Reread group. Your English is fine. I agree with you about a possible downward spiral for Adolin, but am hopeful that this will not happen. After all, he does have a powerful support group consisting of his father, his brother (identified as a Radiant even if ‘on the spectrum’, i.e., autistic), his would-be fiancé, Shallan, and his new friend, Kaladin. As I stated earlier, I believe he will be exiled from Urithiru but will not go alone.
As to Shallan, she is clearly physically attracted to Adolin and doesn’t hesitate to demonstrate that passion. Adolin is more reserved in intimacies,but that may be more cultural than personal. Alethis are depicted as being more reserved than Shallan’s Vedens. She has shown that she can operate in different roles and character traits so that her involvement with the Ghostbloods may not detract from her connection to Adolin and the Kholins. That could change should it become known that she has been dealing with the Ghostbloods. At least she would have much explaining to justify involvement with a group that has ostensibly assassinated a Kholin family member, Jasnah. In any event, she will either continue and deepen her romantic involvement with Adolin, switch to Kaladin should Adolin head into that possible downward spiral or the Kholins taking offense at her Ghostblood meetings, or remain unattached. The last is the least likely of these options.
Adolin’s support group…
A father: Who will be so angry at him for having broken the codes, his trust and made him recall his younger years as the Blackthorn, he will turn his back on him. His long-lived hero which will shun him out, refusing to forgive him, refusing to help him, refusing to be… a father to him.
A brother: Who may not understand what is going on with Adolin, but more importantly, a brother Adolin has always refused to worry in any way. Adolin takes care of Renarin, not the other way around. How long will it take for Renarin to manage to crack his older’s brother armor and make him admit he does need a bit of care too?
A fiance: Who may end up leaving him or just growing distant or he may just leave because he feels unworthy… He expects the relationship to fail because he has no confidence in his ability to make it work. How little will it take for him to crash down on this one? Imo, I expect this relationship to fail early on, but to ultimately work later on.
A friend: Who is half-way across the world………..
Yeah, Adolin’s got the hell of a support group…
He’ll crash. Bad.
Gepeto @@@@@84 – I have to react to a couple of things.
“If his future was not so uncertain, if he had been listed as a flashback character, nobody would dispute the fact he is one of the important character.”
Brandon has very clearly stated that being identified as a flashback character in no way insures that the character will survive until that book. I have the impression that he fully intends to give us at least one flashback sequence from a character who is already dead. And he undoubtedly considers Adolin a major character – but that doesn’t mean he’ll survive the series. I’m betting against several “main characters” survival, though I’m not going to list them here – if only because I don’t want to get into the rationale.
“I wonder at times if Brandon’s decision to postpone Szeth flashbacks to book 5 was not in part driven by the strong dislike many people expressed about reading more about Szeth now…”
Absolutely not. He had intended to use Szeth as the flashback character for the third book, but as he was outlining the book he realized that Szeth’s flashback sequence didn’t work all that well with the main plot. He decided he had to sketch out all three flashback sequences (Jasnah, Dalinar, Szeth), lay them alongside the Book 3 plot, and decide which one fit best. There are plenty of fans who want more about Szeth, not less.
“We learned nothing new through those, except how Shallan grew up and how her father was.”
Gotta disagree with this, too. We learned more about Lady Davar and Helaran, giving us further hints as to some of the subversive organizations out there; I anticipate that Brandon will build on those. We learned more about Lin, with the implications of Odium’s influence; we didn’t really learn more, but we learned to question more about where and why he got the Soulcaster fabrial. On the surface, we learned about Shallan’s sad childhood; go a little deeper, we have hints and implications about what has been happening on Roshar over the last seven years.
To elaborate a little on what the flashbacks are/may be doing: Kaladin gave us rural Alethkar, politics, and Amaram. Shallan gave us rural Jah Keved, secret/subversive organizations, and Hoid. Szeth will give us Shinovar and Stone Shamanism, at the least. Dalinar will give us Kholinar, presumably going back twenty or thirty years: the unification of Alethkar and the discovery of the Parshendi, as well as his visit to the Nightwatcher. Eshonai will give us the Parshendi backstory; her flashbacks may overlap with Dalinar’s but from a different angle, and might give us more information about the Listeners’ gods.
For the “back five”: Lift will likely give us more western events, in places like Iri and Azir. Jasnah might give us Kholinar and earlier interactions with spren. And politics, and possibly Amaram. Renarin, by the time we get there… I have no idea what he’ll give us, but it will include Brandon writing from the perspective of someone on the autism spectrum as one aspect, which I’m really looking forward to reading, and may give us more of the years between the two five-book arcs. Taln and Shalash will give us different Herald perspectives – one who kept the Oathpact and one who broke it; I’d guess that Taln’s will give us information from 4500+ years ago, and Shalash will give us some of the intervening years. (I hope that Shalash will give us more on the Recreance, too.)
So while each flashback sequence gives us a single character’s backstory, there’s so much more to be drawn out of them. FWIW, I’ll try to focus in on those a bit more in the future.
“How is knowing Adolin as a character less important to the real-time story arc than knowing Shallan/Renarin/Lift (etc) if it is not for him biting the dust as some point?”
Well, that’s Brandon’s call, isn’t it? Since I don’t know what the story arc entails, nor what anyone’s character/backstory involves (except, so far, Kaladin and Shallan), I don’t know how each one will be important to the story; I can guess as per above, but I don’t know. But I do believe that we can get to know Adolin without a flashback sequence, and just because he doesn’t have “his own book” doesn’t mean we won’t get memories and insights. And you might be surprised at how much we’ll learn about Adolin’s character from Renarin’s flashbacks.
STBLST @@@@@ 86 – Yup. It now occurs to me that once there’s someone else who can operate the Oathgates and is established/likely to remain in Urithiru (Dalinar?), Shallan may have to leave due to the Ghostblood connection, though whether to escape them or to do undercover investigation remains to be seen.
Gepeto @@@@@87 – I think you’re selling them all short. Neither father, brother, nor fiancée are as shallow as you’re making them seem. If Adolin “crashes,” he’ll do it in spite of them, not because of them. IMO.
@@@@@several – Welcome, welcome! I love seeing so many new names showing up here! I’m not going to name names here, because I know I’ll miss someone and then feel worse than if I hadn’t tried. You know who you are, and you are heartily welcomed to the Storm Cellar family. Don’t worry about second-language issues, or feel that you’re not expressing yourself well; we all have to work at that one. (You wouldn’t believe how much time I sometimes spend rewriting these posts, trying to say what I really want to say in less than 2000 words… and English is my first language!) Welcome, come on in, and speak up. We’re glad you’re here.
@@@@@Gepeto, I’m swedish. I’m not sure I agree that Shallan wants a relationship. What I think she wants is the experiance of a relationship. Perhaps that makes very little sense and it is a very fine distiction.
@@@@@STBLST, thank you. It is nice to be welcome. I still think that Shallan is going to have trouble committing to a relationship when push comes to shove. I do not think she is prepared to let anyone that close. She is having trouble to face her own past after all. I think the only thing that makes her open up to Kaladin later, is the circumstances surrounding their situation. I just think she has too many conflicting motivations for there to be room for anything “real”.
I would have liked to have participated in this conversation, but the sheer length of so many of these posts has made it nigh impossible for someone who doesn’t see this a part-time job.
I don’t know if this has been brought up in the countless lines of text above, but I believe the two male characters being argued over will work to highlight Odium taking influence over Adolin, slow but sure (with a redemption in the end). While Kaladin, having fully embraced his powers, has (hopefully) sealed himself off (at last) from Odium’s influence.
Last point, anyone trying to argue that romantic relationships are not, or are no longer, interesting in fantasy literature need only look at the miles of test applied to that very topic herein.
@88: Alice first thank you for your detailed post. You have highlighted several good points I had failed to make, so thank you very much for your insight.
I was aware of Brandon stating he might do the flashback of a dead character, but I had never seen it as something that will happen, more as something that may happen. I also figured out that, since he was giving us the list in advance, he did not want us to think these characters were safe from dying. I also think some character is likely to die, but I hope not too many… I tend to feel invested into my characters and I do not believe major character deaths are required for a good story-telling. In other words, if you need to make head rolls to keep the suspense, then you are not a very good author. I believe Brandon is good enough to not have to resort to this tactic: he has never killed a character who’s story line was not finished. So if Adolin dies it will be at the end of his story plot which I cannot see happening in the near future… Adolin, Adolin has to marry and have children to continue his bloodline :-(
I do know there are many people who wishes to read more about Szeth, but there also are many people who don’t. On the other hand, everyone wants to read more about Dalinar. I do know he stated he felt Szeth flashbacks did not work so well for book 3 after all, but still I wonder. I have heard people state he changed book 2 focus from Dalinar to Shallan because he felt Shallan was under-loved. I have no idea if this is true or not, but I have heard of it.
As for the flashbacks, I believe I had not interpret them in the same manner. I am an heavily invested within character development reader which has the downside of me sometimes turning a blind eye on world-building or Hoid in general. I had never read Kaladin’s backstory as world-building, but as the flashback of Kaladin so I could get to understand him better and so I could read about the string of events that led him to his current predicament. In that optics, Shallan’s left me wanting as there was not much happening in terms of events. We did learn insights on her family, her sad childhood, but I have essentially read those as character building for Shallan more than anything else. I also tend to envision the future flashback sequences as character building: to understand Dalinar, we need to witness the Blackthorn. So, from the moment I consider the flashback chapters as character building as opposed to world-building I then want Adolin. However, it is likely you are right and Brandon does not see those chapters as character building, but more as world-building…. I guess I thought they were so beautiful and the focus on Kaladin/Shallan was so great to read, I wanted the same things for Adolin.
As for getting memories outside of flashbacks… we haven’t got many of those. We know a few things, but knowing and reading about them are two different things, which is why the flashbacks were a neat addition. However, I do agree I may not have tackled at the issue in the appropriate way. I guess I feel Kaladin/Shallan are such well drafted characters due to the intense focus they have had, I have a hard time figuring out how someone like Adolin could grow without having the same privilege.
I sure know it is Brandon’s call… but my opinion remains: the story is better with Adolin in it than without. Try to read WoK or WoR without his parts and whereas the ending remains intact, the story within is widely changed. The end is the same, the journey differs and the journey with Adolin in it is a better one, I think.
As for my last post, I may not have explained myself well enough. I did not mean Adolin would break because of them, but I doubt he won’t break because they will support him which was the idea launched. We discussed a few threads before how Renarin could have broken despite having a very supportive family. Adolin may seem to have a supporting group: they won’t prevent what will happen, worst they may not even be there to help or maybe they won’t help for various reasons other than them being shallow.
@90: I doubt Adolin would fall prey to Odium… Strangely, of all characters, I see him as one of the least likely. Why? I believe his deep love and care for his family members protect him: never will he raise a finger against them. Besides, there are WoB where it is implied Adolin is not going down the dark road, but I’ll admit they are not conclusive in the manner.
Wetlandernw @88 when you lay it all out like that there really is a lot of information that is still coming huh? It’s kind of daunting to think about
Bellaberry @92 – I think that’s one of the things we lose sight of too soon, but at the same time it’s one of the most exciting things about the Stormlight Archive. It’s not just the details we don’t know – there’s so much about the stage we don’t even know yet. There are three more books in this first arc, so it stands to reason that we’re going to learn a lot more before we get to the end of it. Then there’s the whole second arc, set some years later (ten?), and we can only guess at how much more there is to be revealed.
One of the things that kind of blew me away when I first read WoR was how many answers Brandon gave us – things that I didn’t expect to be solved nearly so soon. Then I realized that along with all the answers, he was giving us a whole new set of questions…
The difficulty soon to be faced by Adolin (I expect that Ialai who was in a position to know the extent of Adoln’s hatred of Sadeas from her husband will charge Adolin with the slaying and Adolin may well admit to it), and the possible difficulty that awaits Shallan should her connection to the Ghostbloods become known (her brothers may do so unintentionally), may be joined by that facing Kaladin. When Elhokar arrives in Urithiru, he can be expected to launch an investigation of that assassination attempt that nearly succeeded. While Kaladin’s bravery in facing down the assassins despite being hobbled by his leg injury will become known, so will the involvement of one his trusted lieutenants, Moash. It will become difficult to defend the proposition that Kaladin had not known of the plot beforehand, and Kaladin may well admit to such prior knowledge. The upshot of this could be that the three could face exile, and even collect a fourth should Dalinar seriously object to these conjectured developments. While such a scenario may seem a bit like Dumas’ “The three musketeers” (and D’artagnan), I trust Sanderson’s creativity to make it sufficiently different and novel. However, when all is said by outsiders, only Brandon will decide which of the many possible paths to take – if he has not already done so. A hint would, however, be appreciated.
@94: I agree about your desire to have a hint as I would love to have one myself… Unfortunately, one does not necessarily get to ask question to Brandon simply because they wish to and asking does not guaranty an answer. For my part, I never had the occasion and the one time I risk myself to it, on the reddit AMA, it was sadly left with the unanswered ones, not that I blame the author, as there are so many of those. So yeah, unless you are able to go to one of the signings, asking is not easy. Those of us who are unable to meet Brandon in person have to rely on others asking questions and sadly they may not always be the questions we wish to have answers for.
@95 hmmm… Brandon will be in Houston this October. I am planning to go and attend the book signing if my work will allow it. If I go, I’ll try to remember to ask him about Adolin. But knowing me, I’ll probably ask about his new book. But I will remember, I promise
sheiglagh @96 – Take a short list of questions along; you never know how many you might get to ask. You might get a chance to ask more if you stay until the end of the signing.
@96: If you are planning to meet Brandon and ask questions about Adolin, PM me. I have several. I wish I was able to ask them myself, but I lack the means to do so.
Ah, so many questions! Will Kaladin return directly from Hearthstone alone and sad/depressed? Will he return with his parents? Will he detour to Kholinar (it’s closer than the Oathgate in the center of the Shattered Plains) and get involved in the turmoil there? Will Shallan meet again with Mraize and co., and be reunited with her brothers? Will we finally learn what the Ghostbloods are about? Will Jasnah appear and become incensed at her (former) ward’s collaboration with her would-be assassins? Will Adolin’s killing of Sadeas be revealed? Will he be imprisoned or exiled? How will the Radiants in Urithiru sally out to confront Voidbringers and rescue people – singly or together? Will other (proto) Radiants such as Lift, find their way to Urithiru, or will they first need to meet with the known Radiants? Will Taravangian and the diagram cult find their way to Urithiru and attempt to overthrow the Kholin rule? Will Amaram and the Sons of Honor cult find their way to Urithiru? Granted that we are not entitled to know much of the yet unwritten narrative of SA3, but please, Brandon, reveal something?
At Brandon’s signings he usually reads something from a book that he’s currently working on, and since he plans to be writing SA3 this year I bet we’ll get a glimpse of what happens next in Roshar. I really hope that I will be able to attend a signing this year of Brandon’s even though I think I would be too shy to ask any questions.
@99: Unfortunately, it appears most of your questions would receive the RAFO answer…
For my part, I so wished I was able to ask just few questions pertaining my favorite character: we so seldom get character related WoB. However, I can’t attend to any of the signings… I do not even live in United-States which makes matter all the more complicated.
I also do not want to pester anyone with my personal questions. A moment with Brandon is personal and people should ask what it is they want to know, whatever it is. So I have to live with the fact I will never be able to ask my own questions. To all that are going, you are very lucky and cherish your luck.
radiantflower @100 – If you attend a signing, make sure you go with at least one question ready. While he’s signing your book(s), he will ask you if you have any questions for him. (And he never gets impatient with people who ask the same question several dozen others have asked.) But do, do, do have a question in mind of something you’re curious about. Your best bet for getting an answer is to ask something that’s not a big “well of course that will be revealed in the next book” thing. Some background detail about a character you really like usually works well.
@97 and @98 Yes I will. :-) And Gepeto – yes I will PM you regarding questions for Brandon.
@101 Gepeto
Even if you’ll never get to ask him questions in person, don’t forget to keep an eye out for him on a Reddit AMA You could still ask there :)
@104: Thanks, but I already tried the AMA. Brandon unfortunately skipped my questions.