Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Kaladin and Shallan both progressed in their Surgebinding skill development, moving forward toward their respective goals, but for each of them, progress was tainted by Amaram’s greed for Shards. This week, Adolin returns to the dueling arena once again, to provide another memorable show for the spectators.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 53: Perfection
Point of View: Adolin
Setting: the Shattered Plains Dueling Arena
Symbology: Duelist, Battar
IN WHICH Adolin duels Elit using a new technique, very precise and calculated; Elit’s Plate completely seizes up for lack of Stormlight to repair it, Adolin is pronounced the victor, and the crowd is annoyed—all of which pleases Adolin tremendously; Shallan comes to congratulate him, and Navani promptly leaves; Shallan and Adolin begin to make dinner plans, but are interrupted by the arrival of Relis in a foul temper; Adolin had expected this and finally goads Relis into a duel by offering all his family’s Shards against those of Relis and whoever he brings with him; it promises to be spectacular.
Quote of the Week
“Fight me!” Elit shouted from within his helm.
“I have.” Adolin replied quietly. “And I’ve won.”
Elit lurched forward. Adolin backed up. To the boos of the crowd, he waited until Elit locked up completely— his Plate out of Stormlight. The dozens of small cracks Adolin had put in the man’s armor had finally added up.
Then, Adolin strolled forward, placed a hand against Elit’s chest, and shoved him over. He crashed to the ground.
Adolin looked up at Brightlady Istow, highjudge.
“Judgment,” the highjudge said with a sigh, “again goes to Adolin Kholin. The victor. Elit Ruthar forfeits his Plate.”
Heh. Poor Istow. She keeps having to judge in Adolin’s favor, even when she doesn’t want to. (I don’t feel the least bit sorry for her, frankly.)
Commentary
Yet another fighting style from Adolin. The first duel was a beat-down, then second one he carefully kept very close, and in this one he deliberately wore down Elit’s Plate until it seized up. It’s hard to comprehend how anyone can keep insisting that he’s lost his edge.
Then again, I guess we know that he’s doing it all on purpose, but all they see is that he’s being inconsistent—except for that nasty habit of winning everything.
::snicker, snicker::
One thing I found very interesting, particularly in light of recent discussions, was Adolin’s self-control in this duel. Despite the emotional backdrop, he is absolutely controlled—and controlling—as he executes exactly the duel he had planned.
Ideal form. Each step in place. The Thrill rose within him, but he shoved it down. He was disgusted by the highprinces and their squabbling, but today he would not show them that fury. Instead, he’d show them perfection.
(Incidentally, that’s obviously the source of the chapter title.)
Adolin is frustrated, angry, disgusted, and generally cranky about both the Parshendi and the highprinces who oppose Dalinar, but instead of being controlled or driven by his emotions, he is calm, careful, serene, precise, quiet. (Yes, I got those all out of the text.) He planned exactly how he wanted it to go, and it went exactly as he planned. Because he’s just that good. And all that in spite of the fact that Elit was clearly trying to wound or kill him. Isn’t that sort of against the principles of dueling, by the way?
Elit growled audibly from within his helm, then came in with another thrust. Right at Adolin’s faceplate.
Trying to kill me, are you? Adolin thought, taking one hand from his Blade and raising it just under Elit’s oncoming Blade, letting it slide between his thumb and forefinger.
Elit’s Blade ground along Adolin’s hand as he lifted upward and to the right. It was a move that you could never perform without Plate— you’d end with your hand sliced in half if you tried that on a regular sword, worse if you tried it on a Shardblade.
With Plate, he easily guided the thrust up past his head, then swept in with his other hand, slamming his Blade against Elit’s side.
Sweet. Reminds me a little of Dalinar’s lastclap; these guys are amazing. It must run in the family.
Adolin’s gambit pays off, since Relis comes storming in with his gaggle of lighteyes, all threats and bristles, and finally allows himself to be goaded into a duel. I’m definitely bothered by the fact that Brightlady Istow comes with him; even though she’s busy assuring Relis that Adolin didn’t break any rules, the fact that she’s in his company seems wrong to me. I suppose it’s partly combined with her attitude toward his first win, and knowledge of how she’ll behave in the upcoming one, but storm it, judges are supposed to be impartial!
I’ll always wonder – did Relis catch on right away about the loophole left when Adolin didn’t specify a number? I’m pretty sure Istow noticed it; did the others realize it as well, or did she give them the idea?
Stormwatch
This is the day after Kaladin’s and Shallan’s respective level-ups in Surgebinding; there are thirty days left in The Countdown.
Cue the ominous musics.
Heraldic Symbolism
Battar presides alone over this chapter. Patron Herald of the Elsecallers, she represents the attributes of Wise/Careful, which I assume is the reason she’s here. She is represented positively by Adolin’s careful, precise, perfect execution of the duel… and negatively by his failure to think carefully through the wording he used in his challenge to Relis:
“If you’re afraid,” Adolin said, looking back to Relis, “you don’t have to duel me alone.”
Relis stopped in place. He looked back. “Are you saying you’ll take me on with anyone else at the same time?”
“I am,” Adolin said. “I’ll fight you and whomever you bring, together.”
“You are a fool,” Relis breathed.
…
Relis stormed out. The others trailed after. The highjudge lingered, regarding Adolin. “You realize what you have done.”
“I know the dueling conventions quite well. Yes. I’m aware.”
She sighed, but nodded, walking out.
Oh, Adolin, that one little slip is going to hurt badly. On the other hand, some good things come of it, so we’ll forgive you.
Words of Radiants
As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 6, page 2
I’ve always taken this as evidence that both Transportation and Transformation give a reasonable affinity to Shadesmar, so that a Willshaper would be able to access it roughly as well as Shallan does; the combination of the two Surges, unique to the Elsecallers, grants true mastery. (Well… after a certain amount of practice, anyway. Heh.) It’s interesting to note that historically, the Elsecallers were known to graciously transport others—Knights Radiant only, or others as well?—to Shadesmar with them. Why?
Shipping Wars
I must point out how cute these two are:
Shallan Davar burst in, wearing a violet dress, red hair flaring as she crossed the room. “That was incredible!”
“Shallan!” She wasn’t the person he’d been expecting— but he wasn’t unhappy to see her. “I checked your seat before the fight and you weren’t there.”
“I forgot to burn a prayer,” she said, “so I stopped to do so. I caught most of the fight, though.” She hesitated right before him, seeming awkward for a moment. Adolin shared that awkwardness. They had only been officially courting for little more than a week, but with the causal in place … what was their relationship?
Aww. They’re just so perfect. Perfectly awkward, in this case, which is totally endearing. (Except I have trouble with a redhead in a violet dress. That doesn’t quite work for me. But maybe that’s just me. Redheads in the crowd? Does violet work for you?)
Hey, y’all didn’t talk about the glyph-script Amaram was using last week. I started to, but then my electricity went out for three days due to a freak windstorm, and I had no internet. *sigh* Maybe I’ll throw it out there this week, if we need more discussion in the comments.
You. Have. Been. Warned.
So get into some discussion this week, and then join us again next week when Shallan tries her hand at gaining the confidence of the Ghostbloods. This should be rich.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Look for her involvement in the upcoming releases of Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning… Well, really, forget her involvement. Just watch for those books and get them the minute they come out, because Brandon Sanderson is awesome and tells brilliant stories. That is all.
Not a sword fighter myself, but friends with a ton of SCA heavy & rapier fighters. So the comment below reminded me of something they have all said.
It’s actually MUCH harder to change your overall fighting style. Every fighter gets into patterns. Yes, they can change it up, but each person has a preferred method and attack system. If their opponent knows they are a “turtle” fighter, the opponent can anticipate the right types of counter attacks to win.
Thus, Adolin is making his opponents crazy. They have no way of knowing what method he will use to fight. So they have to come up with their counter attacks on the fly. And as we have seen, they have all failed. Adolin is truly the superior fighter because he can use the whole spectrum of styles. I’m sure all the others were taught the full spectrum, but being able to use them all with equal skill is incredibly rare.
@Alice – thank you once again. xoxo
In shipping Adolin and Shallan,,yes they are perfect. I can’t go on much about it because of time constraint on my part.
Just one observation, though it is not from this Chapter. Earlier while Shallan and Jasnah were still in the Winds Pleasure, Jasnah mentioned about the politics of the spren. Jashah said that the Honor spren (where Syl belongs) and the Cryptics (where Pattern belongs) do not get along. She even added that Cryptics run Shadesmar.
That said, if we ship Kaladin and Shallan, I think Syl and Pattern have something to say about it. *LOL while smirking*
Nice job, Alice! I don’t have much to contribute (yet), b/c you niftily covered the points in this chapter that I jotted down for discussion.
Adolin reminds me of several young people I know in the same age range, so props to Brandon for realistic character development.
Red heads in violet/purple dresses: Click here.
Hello, Alice! I have not read the post yet, but I wanted to pop in and say hi close to the top. We met at Worldcon after Brandon’s reading and then kept running into each other
Ways – Thanks for the link of the redheads in purple, Shallan would definitely look hot!
This is a great chapter of Adolin and really showcases his skill as has been mentioned.
I did not catch Adolins mistake regarding the wording of his challenge to Relit the first time reading, so i had huge surprise at the 4 on 1 duel later chapter. Interesting notion that the judge may have been the instigator.
@Words of Radiance, chapter 6, page 2
I’m pretty critical about these snippets. For one, I’m certain we’re reading them through at least one pass through the lens of translation- imprecise euphemisms translated literally, getting us a previous passage that probably ought to have gone “and so a bunch of Lightweavers made a bunch of illusions and tricked them into rallying and counterattacking”. For two, the nature of the information means there would be a lot of past or contemporary bias presented either with the objective of validating it or unassumingly used as fact.
On this particular one; Radiants are crazy. They have to be. In Order-specific ways even, seemingly. We have something of the nature of Jasnah’s crazy from Hoid’s conversation with her at the end of this book- it’s almost is if saving the world is only slightly more important as a pursuit than the one of Jasnah saving the world- and I do not think that she would have done as well pursuing her own agenda on the Shattered Plans as Shallan did while trying to pursue Jasnah’s agenda in her place. If we take that as the Elsecaller’s brand of crazy the passage looks different. The implication is that the Elsecallers used their affinity with transport to and from Shadesmar to position themselves as the Knight’s Radiant’s plenipotentiaries to the spren- even though they were not the best ones for that job.
@2
I never thought of that. That could be a really interesting complication to their relationship (whatever form that relationship may be) down the road.
@3
Yeah but that first pic was of Susan Coffey. Maybe you haven’t heard this but the best mathematicians in the world have published a proof that it is provably impossible for Susan Coffey to ever look bad.
Based off the passage, I’m fairly certain that Relis clearly understood Adolin’s gaffe in the challenge. In fact, it appears that he goaded Adolin into saying the exact words necessary in order to meet any dueling conventions.
At the very least she realized immediately what he had gotten himself into. With the way they like to politic and her obvious bias it would not surprise me if she were the one to point out his mistake. I’ve always taken the quote below to indicate she realizes the implication of his action.
As the highjudge she would know the regulations like the back of her hand and without any major emotional investment she should see the loophole immediately. Adolin is a brash and young athlete, no matter how intelligent he is he is emotionally invested and he expects a bit of skepticism over his perceived 2 on 1 challenge. I think the two of them are have 2 very different conversations with each other.
wingracer @7
I hadn’t heard about the proof re: Susan Coffey. After checking her web page…probably so. //Snort// Please have a look at the rest of the sampling to avoid inadvertent bias.
Regarding the highjudge Istow.
My (re-)reading of her is overshadowed by the next fight she presides over, I can’t help it.
Based on her performance there I can’t believe that Istow is just “not-impartial” because she is upset with Adolin after his prior fights. I do assume she is in Sadeas’ camp, so I absolutely buy that she was the one to point out the loophole to Relis.
To be fair to her though: she did point out the problem to Adolin here, he was just do proud to get the clue. Not so perfect after all.
A few thoughts on the chapter…
First of, I like Alice how you point out Adolin, despite being a mixed of various emotions, is able to shove them away once he reached the dueling ground. It makes perfect sense he should be able to do so: when he duels, he essentially remains within his comfort zone. He knows what to expect, he knows how to deal with it, he has tremendous experience with it: no need to get emotionally distressed over it… However, once we reach the 4 on 2 duel chapter, we will be able to appreciate Adolin does not emotionally react well to the addition of 2 Shardbearers: he goes from fear, to anger, to stress, to anxiety, to panic, to resignation all within a few minutes. In other words, he loses the cool level-head he typically has when in controlled fighting ground.
I also love how this chapter highlighted how good Adolin actually is as a strategist, not many people realize how promising he is in that regards. He is mixing the cards, he know it and it was fully intentional. His father asked him to win with as much fanfare as possible: he does grant him his wishes and is even cocky enough to end it with a flourishing bow. The insult. Arrogant show-of Adolin.
Which brings me to dueling… This is an aspect I had wanted to discuss for a while and it pertains Dalinar. Don’t get me wrong, I love Dalinar, but his sense of honor keeps on leaving me a cold shivering feeling inside. Dalinar pretends dueling should be banned in times of war to avoid war officers from being injured. He seems to think it dishonorable to spar while a war is ragging outside. However, he has obviously no quarrel in hunting a giant chamsfiend which he did not think was dishonorable…
My point is, in all duels we have seen, nobody ever got injured. Adolin got pounded on by 4 opponents, he even mentions how hard the hammer was hitting him and yet he walks out of it literally unscathed. In the current duel, it is stated Elit is trying to wound Adolin without any success… Can such thing even be done this easily? I mean, the 4 Shardbearers wanted to injure Adolin and failed despite all having their turn to swing at him… So how dangerous is dueling when both opponents are wearing Plate???
In comparison, the hint cost the life of 50 good men for no other reason to give the king an excuse to pretend he is a worthy leader. How is it Dalinar refuses his son to duel, for fear of injuries and by thinking it dishonorable in times of war, and yet gives his blessing for a much more dangerous enterprise, hunting?
I’d also like to point out Adolin thinks hunting is dishonorable, boring and akin to a butchery which he despises. Dalinar thinks hunting is a grand tradition…
It just irks me to see Dalinar refuse one, but authorize the other when, in truth, he should have done the opposite. Especially since we now have this WoB stating not all orders of Radiants would agree with him there…..
That being said, let’s move onto Istow. It is clear to me she is not impartial. Had Relis intended to goat Adolin into an unpaired duel? Probably, but Adolin made it easy for him. Another very emotionally impulsive move: he got over-excited and he forgot to think things through. Another emotional response. As for Istow, she did warn Adolin, but she purposely did not tell him he details… It was obvious Adolin was not seeing the loop-hole and it was obvious she was. By not telling him, she thus agrees to see him being butchered. She backs herself by warning him knowing full well the impulsive youth in front of him is to emotionally invested to see what he got himself into. A nice impartial person would have told him. Directly. “Hey kid, specify how many opponents he is allowed to bring.”
On WoB…
I have checked the link Alice gave to Theoryland and I’d like to point out there are a few Adolin related WoB which are missing. The most crunchy ones never got to be listed as official WoB, even though they did come from Brandon. If anyone’s interested, PM me. I’ll see if I can fish them out for you.
Alice and litsyemir @8. I am in the camp that Relis did not realize the significance of how Adolin made the offer. I think that Relis merely thought Adolin crazy for agreeing to a 2 on 1 duel. I think that Relis believed that he was a much superior duelist than Adolin and that Relis and another full Shardbearer would easily defeat Adolin.
On the other hand, I believe that Istow immediately saw the loophole. As a judge, she followed her duty to the letter of the law and confirmed that Adolin understood what he said. This way when more than 2 people showed up, Adolin could not cry foul. If I had to guess, Istow then went immediately to Ialai Sadeas and told her about the loophole. Ialai told Sadeas who then got his supporters together (including Relis’ father) and made the necessary plans. Only then did they tell Relis of the loophole. I do not think Istow would bypass Ialai. Alethi culture is such that a woman would talk to the another woman rather than that woman’s husband. Had she gone directly to Istow, it may have been seen as abnormal. Somebody might have thought something was up and dug deeper thus giving a warning to Adolin. I think Istow going to Ialai (thus by proxy Relis) is more likely than going directly to Relis or Relis’ father.
From the limited knowledge that we have of the different Orders, I would want to be an Elsecaller. My favorite superhero power is teleportation. I would rather have Soulcasting as a second power than Cohesion. Also, I am more personality in line with Elsecallers than with Willshapers.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@13 AndrewHB
Teleportation huh? Personally, I would only want that power if it were wormhole style traveling (As opposed to the popping in and out style–like what Nightcrawler from the X-Men does).
That could be neat too, but only if you had the necessary secondary powers. The thing that scares about teleportation is, the Earth itself is also moving. Really, really fast. It travels in orbit around the sun at roughly 30 km/sec. In addition, it’s also rotating at 1600 km/hr. I’m not sure about Roshar, but it’s probably similar.
In other words. If you want to travel from point A. to point B. you have to know how long you’re going to be transporting between the two points in your jump, and where point B is going to be when you get there. Not where it was when you started because it will have moved.
If you travel to where it was when you started instead, you’ve messed up big time. You could potentially end up deep within the Earth, or way up in the air.
In addition, when you do get there, your velocity needs to match that of the Earth’s and be in the same direction. If not, you will crash into the planet with the force equal to the difference in velocities.
If you mess up any of these factors, you die. Horribly.
We haven’t seen teleportation directly from Jasnah’s perspective yet, and we don’t know the exact style and factors that go into it for Roshar.
However, what we do know is that Jasnah stayed in Shadesmar a long time after the one time we have indirectly seen her use it. It could have been simply because she was lost in her own research. But then why did she not find a way to let Shallan and/or her family know she was Ok?
It’s also important to note that despite her constant use of Soulcasting despite warning Shallan that it was difficult and dangerous, she completely foregoes teleportation as a routine method of travel despite her globe hopping for research purposes. So I cant imagine it’s easy even for her..
I may be alone in this, but I think that Istow was trying to warn Adolin of what he had done, despite the fact that she wasn’t pleased with him winning all the time. I can guarantee that Ialai would not have needed to be told of the loophole, considering how shrewd she is made out to be. I can’t help thinking that Relis also knew about the loophole and was shocked that Adolin was willing to accept it.
I’m fully on board with Adolin-Shallan and have pointed out for quite some time now that Kaladin and Shallan’s spren would cause an issue in THAT particular relationship (if it were to ever happen).
@16 the problem with using teleportation to travel is that it’s hard to keep secret. Jasnah doesn’t even have loyal minions who can lie and say she’s in seclusion. It could be easy as pie and still be too much risk for the long game she was playing.
#7 @wingracer @Ways – I think the real winner there is the 4th or 5th picture down – Christina Hendricks. It’s close either way; obviously much more research is needed.
As for the glyph-script from the previous chapter, I always thought it strange that Alethi men are expected to be illiterate. It’s just so impractical, especially for a group that places so much importance on military prowess. How are they supposed to pass orders, share intelligence, or most importantly handle logistics in the field if they can’t write? Armies run on paperwork. So I’m not surprised to see they’ve found a way to record information that let’s them maintain the fiction of not writing.
wcarter @14. Rather than the popping version like Nightcrawler, I like the “gateway” type teleportation of Blink from Marvel Universe or the Wheel of Time’s gateways. The gateway is my favorite weave.
We see the results of Jasnah’s teleporation in WoR’s epilogue. For that matter there is a type of teleportation in traveling from the Shattered Plains to Urithiru.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@Redheads in violet dresses
“Violet and purple look very similar; but violet is a true color, with its own wavelength on the spectrum of visible light, while purple is a composite color, made by combining blue and red” (Wikipedia). Well. How about that? Susan Coffey’s dress looked more maroon to me, but Christina Hendricks’ has gotta be violet. Nevertheless, I don’t see a color clash with the red-haired ladies in any of those pics, regardless of dress color. So…I’m guessing Shallan would look stunning in a violet dress. I’m looking at my big print of Michael Whelan’s painting of Shallan (with a nod to Ben McSweeney), and trying to mentally turn the dress she is wearing violet, but it’s not working well (need some investiture)
Interesting how the thread seems to have gone from discussing Stormlight Archive to…… dresses…..
I am astonished.
However, I feel I need to add my grain of salt. I once saw the picture of a true red head with a beautiful purple wedding gown and she looked absolutely stunning. So I’d say red hair and purple dress are a DO.
@@@@@18 AndrewHB
Oh absolutely the traveling weave is awesome. But that falls under the worm hole category I previously said I preferred. The same thing applies to the Urithiru gates which remind me of Star Gates. I just wouldn’t want to end up as road kill is’all.
@@@@@ others
I have very little interest in fashion or color coordinating so I’m going to stay out of the dress color to hair debate.
On Elit’s duel, Relis, the judge et al: Vorinism. Alethi. Pit of Vipers. Blaugh. Makes me wonder if Dalinar and company wouldn’t be better off leaving the rest of the nobility to self-destruct and finding a better people group to shore up and help out against the coming Desolation.
But for better or worse, Dalinar cares too deeply for his people to simply leave them to their (still quite deserved) fate. And I guess that’s part of what makes him and his son better people in the first place. *sigh*
I’m with Rybal @15; it never occurred to me that Relis didn’t immediately notice the implications. And I always read the judge’s question as the most she could say without losing her impartiality and possibly insulting Adolin by implying he didn’t know the dueling conventions well enough. Relis breathed “you are a fool.” Istow sighed before nodding and leaving. Those strike me as exactly the right reactions for Relis realizing that Adolin just handed himself over on a silver platter and Relis not being able to believe his own luck, and for Istow performing her role despite clearly believing that Adolin really didn’t understand what he’d just done.
And I’d have to re-read the actual duel, but from my current recollection, Istow’s decisions struck me as possibly cold-hearted but not rising to the level of “she’s obviously in league with Sadeas.”
Put me in the camp of those who assume that Relis was immediately aware of the implications that Adolin would duel Relis and whoever he brought with him. That’s why he called Adolin a fool (2 against a master duelist is not a ridiculous matchup). Istow was certainly aware of the implications of the agreement, and she was definitely in Sadeas’ camp with regard to punishing Dalinar and Adolin, as evidenced by her behavior during the 4 vs 1 contest. Her sigh when Adolin confirmed his intention to duel Relis and whomever is a sign of her resignation that Adolin’s incapacitation or death in such an uneven contest will earn her the enmity of a powerful high-prince, Dalinar. I also believe that there is more to Relis than meets the eye. After all, he hears the scream when Kaladin contacts his shardblade and freaks out. I had thought that only the (proto) Radiant would hear that scream. He is also aware that the shardblade is a dead-spren (he runs off saying I didn’t kill you!).
As to the sprens getting in the way of a possible pairing of Kaladin and Shallan, I rather doubt it. The sprens learn much from human behavior as a result of their bonds to the Radiants. Syl and Pattern should learn how to appreciate each other just as Kaladin learned to appreciate and adore Shallan after he had initially disdained her as a nasty lighteye. We’ll see.
@23 STBLST
I always took that scene as a bit of a feedback. Kaladin – a proto- radiant touches the sword which “wakes up” the dead spren and since Relis is the one holding the blade, the actual user, he gets to hear what’s happening. Like if you were to scream into a microphone and some guy is wearing head phones attached to the microphone. He probably doesn’t know that the Shard is a dead spren, just that something is suddenly shouting at him that he killed them.
Which he didn’t.
So, sudden screaming voice in his head blaming him of murder leads to freaked out running.
How are they supposed to pass orders, share intelligence, or most importantly handle logistics in the field if they can’t write? Armies run on paperwork.
The women do the paperwork. Someone said that an officer is really supposed to be a team of husband and wife where the wife handles the paperwork and the husband the fighting.
Why is a woman judging duels when fighting is men’s business? A man should be the one who knows the rules of fighting and judges who wins, while his wife writes down the outcome.
Modern armies run on paperwork. Ancient and medieval armies seemed to do fairly well without it, for the most part. Scavenging and pillaging took care of most of the logistics, while getting geared was pretty much the individual warrior’s problem.
*sigh* I guess I have to give up on catching up on the many, many weeks that I missed and all the comments I was planning to make…or I’ll never be able to comment with all of you on a weekly basis, right.
That said – hi everyone! *waves* Another nice one, Alice! I’ve been reading everything on mobile, just not having the leisure at a desktop to write. 2 jobs, 3rd shift, etc.
Off-hand, not lots to say here. I really enjoy the sections you quoted, Alice – particularly Istow’s sigh as she proclaims Adolin victor (hah! Although we’ll pay for it…). And also the section you quoted about Adolin’s temperament, and his intention to show them *perfection*. Shows his hidden intensity – the same thing Sadeas will discover to his regret and my ambivalence at the end of the book. It’s interesting – so much frustration and disgust from him but perfectly controlled fighting. Rather like his murder of Sadeas – complete rage but presence of mind after. It’s a little scary actually.
Shallan and Adolin are cute. I still wonder if they may not be a little doomed. I think Shallan is really drawn to Kaladin’s intensity and intellect. She likes Adolin and is certainly physically attracted to him; and recognizes him as a good man. Will that be enough to ignore Kaladin’s brooding?
Re: Amaram’s glyph script, I find it typically hypocritical of Amaram that he’s doing something forbidden by his religion. Er…right? Is it a religious or a cultural thing, this women doing 1 handed arts and men doing 2 handed? Anyway, if Amaram’s going to be murdering people and trying to bring back Voidbringers I’m – pleased? – that he doesn’t cringe at bypassing the taboos against writing. Stupid taboo anyway, I wouldn’t stand for it either. Urg, guess I have something in common with Amaram? Moving on…
@3 Glenn – I find your picture of Emma Stone as a redhead in purple quite convincing and I’ll say that Shallan apparently looks amazing. :)
Maybe more once I have a chance to look at the rest of the comments. Thanks again Alice!
Regarding the x:1 problem again. If Relis had caught the implication immediatley his reaction wouldn’t make sense either IMO. If it was sooo obvious that an upset hothead (Relis) immediately realizes it, he (Relis) coudn’t be sure that Adolin weren’t aware of the loophole as well. And if Adolin had realized it, he’d have been able to prepare: Have some allies waiting and ready to match Relis’ number minus one. 4:3 isn’t really better compared to 2:1 Relis shouldn’t have been so elated, if it were so obvious.
No in my opinion both youths thought they were agreeing to 2 on 1 at that moment. Relis is the current champion and he is Alethi, even with Adolin’s performance so far he would have been sure to beat Adolin 2 on 1.
Birgit: sets of rules are often complex and therefore written down. The are the one’s to write down the rules. So I see no problem with the judge being a woman.
@23: I do not think Relis is “special” is any way. WoB explained how the reason he heard the screams was because he was touching the Blade at the same time as Kaladin who is a Radiant. I am not sure of the exact mechanism, but the event was not tied to Relis personally.
That being said, I cannot fathom any spren would want of a man who purposedly engage another man in a completely unfair duel with the explicit intent to either kill or maim him for not other reason than spite.
@27: Adolin controls his emotive side perfectly well, when he is in the “zone”, namely familiar grounds and settings while using his overly practice skill sets. Thrust him out of it and he starts to lose it, albeit the ending of WoR. I have also come to think the entire ordeal may also reflect the reawakening of Adolin’s inner sense of morality. He was able to forget about it so long as life didn’t shove him too hard on the side, but comes Sadeas and it rushes back.
Imo, he is going to have to learn how to control his emotive side, but anger should always be part of him. It is part of his own personal response to events: it can never really go away, but he can learn not to act when stuck in the emotive loop.
Something tells me she’d look pretty good in violet.
For the true fashionistas, of course, the boots and glove would have to go. You simply don’t accessorize violet and brown together…
Damn Alethi society. The fact that Adolin hasn’t given the same fight twice should make them more interested in fighting him not less. I seriously didn’t understand why they just want to ignore Adolin at this point.
Once I realized in text what Adolin was doing I was laughing out loud at this fight and just shaking my head that Elit even thought he could match up with Adolin, even slightly. If Adolin had “fought properly” the duel would have been over minutes after blades were drawn. If others want to stop being embarrassed by Adolin winning, then actually give him fighters in his weight class. Shouldn’t the Alethi be better at judging a man’s fighting talent, their entire culture is based on fighting (and on top that I think there are hints that Alethi culture was based on how the Knight Radients originally organised itself). I keep expecting better of them. Were so many willing to just do as Sadeas and his wife said?
Adolin might not have fought duels for Shards but he did do other duels and then had to have seen he was good at what he did. But it’s like it was surprise and every time Adolin didn’t lose it surprised an angered everyone. That made no sense to me. There attitude only starts to make a little sense to me if I assume it’s mostly fake in order to there Alethi pride not be stung. (Which is stupid of them, IMO.)
I think that Relis was actually angling for Adolin to agree to a disadvantaged fight (it felt to me like expected theater, Relis bringing an entourage with him including a judge, IMO he was going to agree to fight Adolin this time) because he (Relis) can’t be stupid about judging another fighter if he’s the duel champion and has held on that tittle for a while. So he must know that he couldn’t win easily against Adolin. It was probably just a bonus that Adolin’s sloppy wording meant he would be fighting a full disadvantaged duel. (Just a quick side about the Heraldic symbol: Battar could also be represented here because Adolin wasn’t careful enough.)
I wonder if it was a common unacknowledged truth was Adolin the unofficial dueling champion. And it was surprising to people that he started fighting for actual stakes. He was already the unacknowledged better of everyone and now he was fighting people who were clearly not as good and then not even allowing those fighters to have the dignity of losing gracefully or in any way that saves face. That could explain the anger the other fighters felt towards Adolin.
Hi, long time lurker here. (Also on a phone so apologies now for glow of text)
First of all the 2 on 1 seems a bit cowardly since Relis is supposed to be the best duelist essentially in the country. (By title alone, as we later see that Adolin is far better.) Wouldn’t it be against the Alethi personality to fight this way?
@32
I think it’s a situation dependent issue. If Relis had asked for a 2 on 1 fight then, IMO, the rest of society would look down on Relis for a showing a weakness. But since in this case it a boast from Adolin that he can take on Relis and anyone one he brings with him, it allows Relis to bring help without looking weak. It’s all social posturing bullshit.
A few quick thoughts as to why Relis and co keep on dismissing Adolin and thinking him less then he is.
Adolin received his Plate on his 16th birthday. Whereas I do not have any textual evidence, it would make sense 16 years old is the minimum age to enter the dueling championship. Young Adolin who chose dueling for his Calling must have started his dueling career as soon as he felt comfortable enough in his new Plate, which means not long after turning 16.
We know he won his Blade early on, in a fight he impulsively agreed to against a proven fighter. Nobody thought he could win (Oh how I wish I could read Dalinar’s reaction upon hearing his teenage son just wagered his new Plate in a fool’s duel he had little chance of winning due to being so young and inexperienced). However, Adolin did win and became, at 16 years old (apprx.) a full Shardbearer. No doubt that was an event. No doubt 16 years old is VERY young to earn yourself a full set, unless you are the king’s son.
And no doubt most of Adolin’s “reputation” comes from this single fight as, not long after, Galivar died, the Vengeance Pact was put into action and Dalinar started following the Codes. Young Adolin was thus forced to remove himself from the dueling ground just as he was getting started. His “dueling career” can’t have lasted for more than a year, to the most and probably less then that.
For years, he has avoided all fights of consequences to the point where most people thought he lost his edge. Sure, he won himself a Blade at 16, but that was 6 years ago. Sure he keeps on bragging, but what has he brought to the table in those last years….? Nothing.
Result? Adolin is a one hit wonder who got lucky. A shining star who pulled it of for one memorable fight. Can he still do it now?
I figured the entire dueling crew think not and his strategy to make them dismiss him is indeed working.
mehndeke @30 & 31
Niiice!!! My decision-making was, er, somewhat impaired by the, um, physical attributes of the women shown in the link I posted upthread. Your recolorization of Michael and Ben’s awesome art makes that problem moot. Thanks a million! And I personally think Shallan looks great in violet. Can we put this one to rest?
Hola!
Adolin’s Duel: he came in with a plan and it worked. He showed us, the readers, that he is a master dueler. Some of y’all have already commented on this, how he can change styles and keep his opponent guessing. It remained me of my dancing days. At a dance convention, the best dancers weren’t the ones who were classically trained (they were too stiff) nor the ones who did the amazing street step ups ( also one trick ponies). The best dancers could move to any music and make it look effortless. Instantly change the rhythm and they don’t miss a beat but transition to the appropriate style. Those guys made everyone stop and stare.
Adolin’s plan was perfect, so nicely thought through, then he overstepped his next challenge. The judge asked him if he knew the codes and Adolin responded with full confidence. I don’t know the dueling codes, but I know if a judge is asking if I’m sure I know what I’m doing, I know I should double check. Shallan wants a spectacle? Adolin goads Relis to bringing a fighting partner? Istow asks about the codes? Oh yeah, the upcoming duel is not to be missed! On first read, I couldn’t wait to see what was coming in that next duel. I felt pretty sure Adolin’s perfect plan was about to blow up in his face.
I also was impressed Adolin could hold his emotions in check while dueling. It brings him into focus. It reminded me of my niece when she was younger. At a gymnastics meet, she was running all over the place. Talking to her friends, rebraiding her hair, high fiving teammates…she would not sit down and be still! Then, her turn on the balance beam. She giggles, skips to the beam, waves to us. Suddenly, a calm possesses her. She’s focused, precise, and serious. She finishes her routine, sticks her landing then turns into a giggly 12 year old again. I see Adolin similar to this, very focused in the arena, but a bit too emotional outside of it. In a later chapter, Shallan realizes she’ll need to be Adolin’s balance and help him negotiate better the political game. That she’ll have to keep an eye out for those loop holes Adolin may not recognize. They could make a good team.
So funny that you posted the photos of the red heads.!! Thanks for the pics though because I, too, was mystified at such a description. I thought those two colors would clash too much, but I guess it can work- jewel tones.
Shipping: Shallan and Adolin very sweet here. Y’all have made all my comments already. I also noted that Adolin left his plate on because, gee whiz, it was bad enough his hair was matted with sweat! And of course, great turn by Shallan when she turned him down for dinner but invited herself to a walk and meal with Adolin the next day. Taken by surprise again.
May I take a moment to talk about Navani?
I’m surprised she still won’t talk to Shallan. But I’m also wondering how close Adolin feels to her as a mother figure. He wants her to like Shallan. Does he feel the need for her approval? Why? Did Navani step in when Adolin’s mother died? Yet, she’s been looking after Elkor’s wife and only just recently returned to the Shattered Plains. She seems closer to Dalinar’s children than her own, although she’s taking Jasnah’s death hard. Has Navani always loved Dalinar and married Gavilar because he was King? It sounds to me like she was playing them both when they were younger. I also don’t like it when she speaks of Dalinar’s wife. Navani seems to put her down saying how she wasn’t too bright. She doesn’t say that in front of Adolin and Renarin though, just to Dalinar. And since he’s already erased her memory, I don’t like that his only conversationalist about his dearly departed keeps saying derogatory statements about her.
Yet, it seems many years have passed since Shshsh’s death, so I guess it’s ok for Navani to make her move. It just bugs me that she’s so blatant about it. Has she really liked Dalinar all along? Then why did she chose his brother? I can’t wait for this back story when we get Dalinar’s flashbacks.
Sorry, Wall-O-Text warning… this is my first chance to get back to the comments!
Perene @@.-@ – ::waves madly:: Hi there! It was so much fun to meet rereaders – and many other Sanderson fans – at WorldCon.
illrede @6 – There are a load of things in these Words of Radiance quotations that make me question the impartiality and accuracy of the narrator. I find myself very cautious about which parts can be taken as reasonably authoritative, and which should be viewed skeptically. In either case, I think theories based on these epigraphs should be held very lightly!
travyl @11 – I keep looking back at it, and wishing Adolin had been content with “I am.” Relis had said “anyone” which could be construed as “any ONE” – but Adolin had to add “whomever you bring.” *sigh* But like I said, some good things come of it, and the fight scene is amazing… so I’ll forgive him.
@several – It’s not 100% certain that Ialai would have been notified of this particular challenge. None of those involved are from Sadeas’s princedom: Relis and Elit are Ruthar’s, Abrobadar is Aladar’s, and Jakamav is Roion’s. We can be sure that Ialai would have caught it, but it’s only speculation that she even knew about it prior to the event. OTOH, we know that Relis, Elit, and Istow all heard the exact wording.
Nick31 @17 – To be fair, Vorin men are only illiterate for a specific definition of the word: “unable to read or write.” Other definitions include a lack of education or familiarity, often with a particular subject. We know that they are educated in some things, but tradition precludes them from learning to write unless they become ardents. Many men can at least read glyphs.
What I found most interesting was the way the “stormwarden script” follows the same pattern as all the other glyph usage we’ve seen, and yet it’s seen as perilously close to forbidden territory. We’ve seen banners which combine half-glyphs to represent the family name: khokh+linil = Kholin, sebes+laial = Sebarial, etc. We’ve seen the numbers (Jes, Nan, Chach, Vev, etc., which are presumably also glyphs) combined to create date names (Jesesach = 1.1.3). But when Amaram uses glyphs the same way (parap+shenes+idi = Parshendi), it takes Shallan a while to figure it out, and then she’s shocked by it. She believes that Amaram, respected as he is even by those he fights, would suffer serious damage to his reputation should he be exposed as a stormwarden.
This antipathy toward men writing runs very, very deep in Vorinism. It’s really no wonder Adolin didn’t care much about glyphs, and wasn’t too enthusiastic about remembering the ones he’d learned – at least, until he was trying to decipher one of the countdowns, and the best he could do was recognize that some of them were numbers.
chaplainchris1 @27 – Hey, you came back!! :D Good to see you here! Also, it is rather ironic that Amaram the return-the-power-of-Vorinism-dude is willing to bypass such a deep-seated Vorin tradition. Good point.
Gepeto @35 – We have no evidence that Adolin’s duel with Tinalar was either “impulsively agreed to” or viewed by Dalinar as “a fool’s duel he had little chance of winning.” Presumably, Dalinar knew just how good his son was; he’d been training for ten years, after all, and as a member of the Kholin family, he’d likely have been training with the guard-edged Blades for quite some time. He may well have had Dalinar’s full approval for the duel with Tinalar; certainly by the time we see them in TWoK, Dalinar is absolutely confident that Adolin could easily be the dueling champion. Everyone else underestimates him due to the fact that Adolin doesn’t duel for rankings, but solely for the honor of his house, but he doesn’t ever lose. IMO, the claim that “his ‘dueling career’ can’t have lasted for more than a year” doesn’t fit with the evidence of TWoK at all.
Also @many… I’m sorry, it’s just me, but I still don’t buy redheads in violet – at least, not without a ton of make-up or photoshop intervention. (Or bottled red…) It’s not enough to take a painting and change the color of the dress, or to look at airbrushed internet images. In real life, the skin tones and highlights interact with the color of the fabric, and it either works or it doesn’t. You can force the issue with enough makeup, of course, but I remain skeptical. To be completely fair, I’ll go have a chat with my color analyst; if anyone can convince me that a natural redhead can wear violet, she’s the only one. Sorry…
@38: Adolin states Tinalar (I got his name wrong the first time around) thought to duel him only to embarrass his father. He explains how nobody took him seriously back then, which implies nobody thought he could possibly win. It seems obvious Tinalar thought to goat a 16 years old kid known for being brash into wagering his Plate only so he could get his chance at owning one. He probably saw Adolin’s Plate as the easiest to win. It backslashes against him when he lost, but it is stated the common agreement was Adolin did not have a chance. The “nobody took him seriously” quote heavily implies this.
Knowing Adolin, it is easy to figure out how this went… Tinalar insulted openly Dalinar in front of him, he riled in anger and asked to duel him, for honor. Tinalar raised the stakes to have them duel for Shards. Being angry, Adolin agreed. It may not be explicitly stated, but knowing how rare duels for shards are, it is safe to assume it was not a deeply reflected decision on Adolin’s part to agree to that. Especially considering how young he was. Adolin gets horribly nervous when he falls outside his personal experience: that was a massive one and his later thoughts are how nervous he had been then. I would sincerely be surprised to be wrong about that one, even if it is not explicitly stated in book.
Adolin also explains later on how duels for Shards are rare as years can be spend without anyone fighting for those. A duel for Shards with a teenager must have been a rare occurrence and whereas there is no textual evidence for it, I doubt Dalinar was happy about it. Adolin just turned 16, he just inherited his Plate and already he is wagering it in a fight he may loose. I’d be surprised if he reacted positively. Shards are valuable. He can’t have been fine with seeing his son waste one.
As for Adolin’s skill, he was 16 years old. His skill surely increased dramatically since then. Elhokar states in WoK he believes Adolin is getting better than his uncle, which implies he has improved. Besides, at 16, he probably did not have his current built nor strength nor endurance. Teenagers can’t usually physically compete against grown men, grown men who are athletes that is. This is why international sport competition make the distinction between the 18 and younger and the 18 and up. Also, very little 18 years old win international competition where strength, speed and endurance are required (sports such as gymnastic are the exception). So I’d say it’s safe to assume 16 years old Adolin was not quite the duelist he is now.
As for training with the Blades, we do not know how their training process work. It is quite possible they don’t train teenagers with Blade. Those Kaladin saw practicing where adults, not kids. It is possible he had been trained with one, though which one, he did not own one (time with the king’s Blade is highly limited and Dalinar stated how he never let anyone uses is, I wager this includes his son), but it also is highly possible this is the kind of training that only starts once you reach… the magic 16 which seems to be the age at which they are considered adults. So I would not say 16 years old Adolin had tremendous experience fighting with a Blade (he can’t anyway, he was a kid, he probably did not use a full length sword until he reached puberty which is around 14 for men), presuming it is indeed a Blade he used to defeat Tinalar. Presumably, he borrowed his uncle’s Blade, but we do not know. He could have used a war hammer for all we know.
As for his “career”, it did not last long. In between the time he turned 16 and the time Galivar died, there is year to the most. His career lasted for this time period as, afterwards, he stopped dueling for ranks. He then only agreed to boring duels that meant little for ranking. If you don’t duel for ranking, then you are not dueling for real. Adolin also states in WoK how he has not made any progress on his Calling for a long time due to the fact he can’t really duel because of his father’s rules. So yeah, his “official career” was short lived which explains why everyone think he has lost his edge.
The evidence in WoK calls for a few insignificant duels for honor few people even bothered to come watch. In terms of sports, it is the equivalent of the Olympic level athlete who only runs through the small town events and shies away from the international competitions. He may be good, but as long as he don’t partake in the competitions that do matter, he won’t be thought as such and he won’t be able to claim at having a “career”. Winning the small town event is not the same as winning the international competition. Adolin won many small scale duels, but very few of significance as highlighted by Relis and Elit.
None of it is explicitly stated, but they all think Adolin’s reputation is a scam. Why? Because, as Elit put it, he has not won any duel of importance in the last years. While he never stopped dueling, he never dueled “for real” and Adolin does agree for this… Isn’t it his first words when Dalinar tells him to try to duel the other Shardbearers? “Really, I can duel for real?”
He hasn’t been dueling for real for years, not since Galivar’s death which means pretty much all of this “career”, thus the absence of said “career”.
@Gepeto – I have to disagree with you in so many points re your @39 posts. I have seen 16 year old athletes – baseball and football (American) who are physically well built and quite frankly very good. And the main reason they cannot go pro is because legally they cannot. It’s the law and not the physical capacity.
Also, in Roshar, 16 is considered a man. And if you want to be technical about it, a 16 year old Rosharian is equivalent to an 18 year old Earthling or Terran (humans). I did not make up that figure. It came from one of the SA forums. It might even be here.
please give Adolin a break. He might seem perfect to many, but he has a lot of shortcomings which quite frankly is also endearing. And from these discussions, instead of us seeing his good side, we focus on the bad side. He is always compared to Kaladin who despite his brooding and being abrasive is a super hero to many. Adolin for what it’s worth is a character who has as many layers as Kaladin. We just have to wait to see more of it. :-)
@40: Most Olympic athletes winners are not 16 years old or even 18. Whereas there are some boys who are physically impressive at that age, it is nothing to compare to how they will be later on. The maximum physical potential for human being occurs at 28 years old. The complete physical maturity is 25 years old. You football players may have a very good built, but go put them with 25 years old men of the same caliber and you’ll see a difference. Athletes very rarely reach their maturity in their teens unless they are doing gymnastic or dancing.
My point is we can’t look at Adolin now and think he was the SAME 6 years ago. Surely he has grown, if not in height, in width and in musculature as it is generally the case for men. His skill has surely increased as the more years you have behind you, the better you are. As for endurance, teenagers don’t have the endurance of older men simply because they haven’t had the same number of years to develop it. Yes, to every rule, they are exceptions, but generally speaking, 16 years old is very far from the maximum physical shape.
As for the age relationship, far from me the idea to dig into it *again*, but whereas the year is indeed longer on Roshar than on Earth, we do not know if the physical growth follows the same laws.
Therefore, stating Dalinar would be proud his 16 years old son just wager is brand new Plate on the basis he currently believes he can be the champion, now at 23, is a hyperbole. Thar was 6 years ago. The thought impulsive Adolin who just got himself into a full unpaired duel at 23 w,ould have calmly accepted to duel Tinalar as he, of course, already knew he would win is also another one. Based on what we have seen so far, the assumption he agreed based on emotive impulsiveness, at 16, is highly probable even if not explicitly stated.
Anyway.
Everyone always disagrees with me, no matter what subject I broach.
@@@@@ Alice
If mister zealot himself finds a tenant of his own religious/culture stupid, it’s just one more point in my endless rage against Vorinism (seriously though, Sanderson did a great job creating a culture that a male book lover couldn’t help but hate didn’t he?)
@@@@@ Gepeto
I don’t always disagree with you. Although I readily admit that it can be fun do so. If nothing else the debates and discussions are quite fun afterall.
As far as Adolin’s dueling career. I actually think I at least nominally side with you on this one.
The only thing that I do have some reservations about in terms of your theory @@@@@ 39 is Dalinar himself.
The Dalinar we all know and respect would have been mad, and might have tried to stop his son from taking the duel and risking his Plate. But he is not the man he was before his brother died.
The Blackthorn was just as “Alethi” and competition loving as Sadeas and all the rest. Adolin inherited his Plate from his mother’s side, so we don’t really know whether or not Dalinar would have felt he had any right at all to tell his son that he should or should not risk them (although I’m sure he would have been livid had Adolin lost).
Heck he still has some of that impetuous love for competition in him even now–as seen when he allowed his nephew the king to goad him into a Plate-powered race during the hunt in WoK. At the very least, he didn’t forbid the duel. That alone says something.
@42: Well, I was not aware it was fun to disagree with me… I love the discussion, though I sometimes feel like the butt of the joke. It is not easy to always be the dissident one. I am starting to think if I am not doing something wrong with my argumentation.
That being said, you do well to remind me of Dalinar’s past. It is true we are speaking of the Blackthorn and not the Bondsmith, though I still think he would not have been all too pleased. I do agree he used to love the competition, but Adolin went a bit far in wagering his Plate at such a young age. I’d also like to point out we have seen Adolin react to people insulting his family a few times in both books: his reaction has always been one of anger, even better, in WoK, he yearns to duel Sadeas and unconsciously start to summon his Blade. At 16, he must have had even less control (as control for feelers usually increase with time), so it makes sense he would have reacted in similar ways to Tinalar.
As for forbidding the duel, I do not think Dalinar had the power to do so. Once the terms were agreed, I believe the duel needs to go on. Forfeiting would have mean Adolin would have given Tinalar his Plate without a fight, no way Dalinar would have humiliate his son in forcing him to do so, angry or not. Adolin was 16, which is horribly young, but old enough, in the Alethi world, to make his own decision. Like or not, I do not think Dalinar had a word to say about it. The question now is, did he let his son use Oathbringer?
@@@@@ Gepeto
It’s more the discussions than necessarily disagreeing. I just like to debate. I’ll even take a side I may not have fully been on just for the mental exercise. That’s part of what is so great about Stormlight Archive and this reread in particular. There’s just so much meat to the story and so many intelligent people to discuss it with.
Having discussions with you in particular is fun because you’re usually able to keep them up with quick response times.
Anyways, I believe you have Adolin’s involvement in the duel fully pegged. It’s also almost certain that had he personally forfeited or otherwise opted out of the duel, he would have lost his plate. But if Dalinar as Highprince–and presumably the person who was actually insulted–had forbidden the duel it may not have been the case (it would depend entirely on established Alethi law which we don’t know).
Had Dalinar done so however at the very least he would have suffered massive embarrassment and loss of political capital (and probably actual money as well) both for himself and possibly for his brother the King.
As far as using Oathbringer? That’s a good question, but I think it would have depended on Gavilar at least as much as Dalinar.
The various High Princes have the right to loan out their Shardblades to nobles for duels, but Gavilar was trying to consolidate power to the throne. One of the things Dalinar and Gavilar reestablished was the tradition of the King’s blade(s) being loaned. So if he didn’t use Oathbringer, it was probably Firestorm.
@41 Gepeto – I don’t always disagree with you. Actually, most of the time, I am on your side.
I believe that what you perceive is “my eyes glazing over” metaphorically speaking. (Dang, I’m beginning to sound like Pattern.) Sometimes, you get so passionate and involved in your discussion I begin seeing If/Then statements which just go on and on without the Case/Else… and “End of Loop”. If you’re wondering what I’m talking about, it’s geek speak and a programmer’s joke, a very bad one at that actually.
I’m glad you are so passionate. That is one of the reasons why you get a lot of replies when you post. :-) But, go with the flow sometimes. :-) Don’t be so technical like explaining about Olympians and stuff. No offense meant, but it makes me cross-eyed. LOL
Sending you all the love from the beach this time!!! It’s Labor Day weekend here!!!
Fair enough. I do appreciate discussions as well, but I must admit I find it hard at times to always being disagreed with. I do agree with have loads to discuss about, especially part 3 which is, by far, my favorite.
Pertaining forfeiting a duel, I do not think, even as Highprince, that Dalinar has the authority to cancel one. Remember the 4 on 1 duel, Dalinar’s initial reaction was to call out someone to go tell Adolin to forfeit. Elhokar promptly stop him and said: “Forfeiting without a fight? You’ll lose all the Shards you own…” The words are not exact, but it’s basically what Elhokar said. In other words, had Adolin forfeit, he would have lost his Shards. Later on, as the fight raged, Dalinar promptly stood up and ordered the judge to finish it up as Adolin was getting beaten quite badly. She refused stating the terms have not been met and in the arena, she and she alone had the power to call it to an end. Hence, Dalinar was powerless to stop the fight.
It makes me think the Tinalar duel would have been the same. Highprince or no, if young Adolin had agreed to the terms, then I doubt there is much he could have done apart from forcing his son to abandon without a fight. Total humiliation. So no. I am in the camp Dalinar was fuming madly, but powerless to do anything about it.
The reason I am questioning about Oathbringer is Dalinar stated how he could have never let anyone hold Oathbringer. It made me wonder if he made an exception for his son. If not, then surely Adolin fought with Firestorm or plot twist, Elhokar, who seems to enjoy dueling, let him use Sunraiser.
@37: About Navani the boys… and Adolin more specifically… Beware, this is my personal speculation based on my reading of the character. I do think I have enough evidence to back it up, but it is nothing explicitly stated in book.
So my thoughts have been, despite what most readers believe, Adolin is the one who was the most affected by his mother’s death. However, being the oldest, the strongest, the healthiest, he was forced to take in on himself and swallowed it up. Why do I believe this? Several reasons. First of, he is a very affectionate young man who ended up carrying a memento for his dead mother. Each time he mentions her, there is a melancholy we just do not see when Renarin does it. Second of, we do know his early sense of morality was instilled in him by her, which means she had been a significant figure in his young years.
That being said, after she died, I do feel as if Adolin try to find another mother figure and fell on the only potential candidate, his aunt Navani. Dalinar mentions how Adolin tend to go back to being a child whenever Navani is around and Adolin states how he appreciates having her fret over him as it makes him think of mother.
So I do not think it is Navani necessarily invest herself into her nephews, but Adolin, in particular, yearned for it and she responded positively. After all, none of her children are affectionate, so Adolin, with his golden hair and friendly loving manners, must have struck a cord in her. She does get to mother him, some, though not much as Dalinar seems to have kept her as far away as possible.
As for the mother, Navani thinks her dumb, but she did raise Adolin to maintain his growing personal sense of morality, the one where he won’t stand for abuse or wrongs so long as he can do something about it, the morality we see expressing itself more and more in WoR that does not come from Dalinar. That’s mother. As for her being dumb, she probably just wasn’t interested in fabrials so Navani called her out for it….. does not mean she was dumb, dumb.
Re: Navani
I think that Navani was playing both Gavilar and Dalinar when she was younger, at least a little. She also says that she was never really sure if Dalinar actually was interested in her, so she was never sure of where she stood with him. So she probably never knew if she should take him seriously as a suitor. On the other there was Gavilar, who was going to High Prince of the Kholin house and eventually unite Alethikar.
On one hand you have someone who is clear about their intentions towards you and has some great future prospects and on the other hand you have someone you aren’t sure about, can be scarily intense at times. Navani has a scholarly mind and I bet to her the person on the first hand looks like a safer bet. (Granted we know that not all was well between Gavilar and Navani later but she couldn’t forsee that.)
Then when it comes to Shshshsh, Navani says that she isn’t clever. Which isn’t the same thing as saying she’s stupid or dumb. I might be reading into subtext a bit much here, but think what Navani is actually saying is that Shshshsh wasn’t cunning in the way that Alethi are expected to be cunning. A lot of the Alethi who are noted for there cleverness are pretty damn devious and not in a nice way. Shshshsh is described by Navani as a sweetheart that matches Dalinar in temperament. Which doesn’t fit with the what I perceive as the general Alethi norm for clever people. Navani even says herself that she was jealous of Shshshsh. Which is probably why she needs to have something that she’s better at than Shshshsh.
I think it’s also worth noting that Navani doesn’t know that Dalinar doesn’t remember Shshshsh. I think if she knew that she was telling Dalinar new information, instead of giving a different view point on old information, Navani might not have said things the way that she did. I believe that Navani actually liked Shshshsh when all was said an done. She does say that she thought that the four of them (Her, Shshshsh, Gavilar, and Dalinar) could be close friends, if Dalinar didn’t insist on acting like he hated even being in the same room as Navani.
~
I wonder…… If Gavilar knew or found out that Navani had feelings for Dalinar. Maybe that was the catalyst for there marriage troubles.No proof of this, it’s a thought that popped into my head while writing.
I agree “not very clever” may not be the same as “dumb”. However, forgive me if I do not take Navani to her words here. She tends to be very high profile and, much like Jasnah, I do think she has high standards for people. It is obvious Shshshsh did not meet them, though she admitted she was such a nice person it was impossible to hate her.
It is also quite possible she had a different approach to relationships then most Alethi. What Alethi see as clever is manipulation and games through which each house drags the cover slightly more to their side. Being a foreigner, she may not have partake in those. The clue stating she is the investigator for Adolin’s early morality sense leads me to believe she probably had a different definition for it. Being nice and a sweetheart, I wager she was not the kind of person to dig into the useless quips and petty show of cleverness Alethi women seem to be found of and instead allowed herself to be guided by what her heart perceived as right and wrong.
Albeit a very noble attitude, but not one to give her “clever” points with the Alethi.
So late to the party on this one, but here’s my comments.
First, I was really happy when I immediately caught on to the numbers game on my first read-through: usually I’m going too fast to pick up on stuff like this because I’m super dedicated to just getting through it that quickly, but this one I noticed. Probably because, besides the vague number aspect to it, there clearly has to be some kind of conflict (as by this point, as readers, we believe in Adolin’s dueling to the point where even the idea of 2-on-1 doesn’t seem far-fetched at all for him to pull off).
I wasn’t a huge fan of Adolin in this chapter in that first reading either: sure Relis isn’t a nice guy, and we’ll see later he’s pretty bad, but Adolin baited him out by deliberately shaming a family member. It’s a surprisingly ruthless tactic, although born more out of desperation than malice unlike the other Alethi (Adolin needed a high profile duel and Relis is the champion so…). So to pull that off, then make a basic mistake like what happens at the end? I was unfair and held it against Adolin.
After seeing what we get by the end of this part though, well, like Alice said it’s hard to hold it against Adolin, great stuff is coming our way because of this mistake.
I would comment on the whole redhead-in-violet thing, but umm…I have the fashion sense of a rock most of the time. Except those times when you see pretty rock formations or geodes and the like.
Then I have *less* fashion sense than a rock!
@Gepeto
You are clearly quite knowledgeable about this series, WoB and the Cosmere. I believe your participation in these discussions challenges the rest of us and we all learn something as a result. That’s a “plus” IMO, so keep up the good work! But…be prepared to be debated if other commenters don’t agree with your passion about a particular topic. (My eyes glaze over sometimes too.)
sheiglagh @45
We don’t have enough evidence (or information) for an “End of Loop” on some of these topics, right? RAFO?
@Alice
Please let us know what your color analyst says!
Ways on @50 – Yes, you are right. We don’t have enough information so that we can reach “End of loop.” And quite frankly, I really don’t have a problem with the If/Then. It’s when it becomes an infinite loop that I have problems with. LOL But, I am as guilty as most. In fact, I might be guiltier than the majority when trying to make my point. Ha! Ha!
kei_rin on @47 – You are very right in asking if Gavilar found out about Navani’s feelings for Dalinar. Personally, I don’t think so. The Alethi are so prudish that it is really beyond them to think of something like that. Yes, they can be devious when it comes to politics and getting ahead of each other. Yet, when it comes to their personal relationships and marriage, they seem to be very trusting and trustworthy. I can give examples, but it will just be a wall of text. :-) Let’s me just say that the marital problems of Gavilar and Navani might be due to the unification of Alethkar, Gavilar’s preoccupation with the Parshendi when he was still alive and Navani’s scholarship.
Come to think of it, that might be the reason why Jasnah does not want to marry. She saw what happened to her parents marriage. Her parents “careers” (I’m using this loosely and for lack of a better word) just showed Jasnah that it will be better to remain single. Since she does not have to provide an heir (that’s Elhokar’s job), she does not need to marry. :-)
@51: This is exactly why I believe Jasnah refused to marry: to avoid having to make the compromise between her career as a scholar and her duty as a wife. She saw how her mother never managed to explore her scholarship abilities and grew up to think it a waste. This feeling would have exacerbate if her parents wedding was indeed unhappy as we have been given inkling.
@51 and 52
I agree that Jasnah couldn’t have been blind to how unhappy that Navani and Gavalir’s marriage was and that probably had a affected how she herself views marriage. It’s probably not the only thing that caused her to decide such but it makes sense that it would be a major influencing factor.
Quick open question: Do we know that Navani’s scholarship suffered due to her marriage? It makes sense to assume it did so but I don’t recall any thing that Navani says that I would back up this claim. She does lament that often she is seen only as benefactor of scholarship but I get the feeling that is more something position dependent rather than something intrinsic to her marriage. She says “A lighteyed lady of rank has to have some hobbies, doesn’t she?” Making it sound like a factor of her position in society. If she had been married to another High Prince she probably still would have been looked upon by some as just a benefactor and not scholar in her own right.
When you compare Jasnah to Navani, it seems clear that Navani’s limitations on her scholarship shouldn’t be due to her rank in society. Jasnah is also lighteyed lady of rank but I don’t think anyone would say that she just a benefactor of scholarship and not a full scholar in her own right. So it can be inferred that something else is the reason why Navani isn’t considered full scholar and it makes sense to place problems in her marriage distracting her focus as a leading cause of that. But do we see any textual proof of that?
@53: Pertaining to Navani… She does state she is currently unable to accomplish the detailed work her engineers are doing, she can’t draw the diagrams they make, etc. However, shortly after stating this, she claims she had been more of a politician and that perhaps… in another life… she could have been….
We guess she could have been a renown scholar, had she not married Galivar.
As for Jasnah, it is not married women cannot pursue scholarship, it is they have duty as wife which needs to come before. As a wife, she would not have had the latitude to pursue her studies the way she currently does, she would have needed to follow her husband and be his primary scribe. All in all, marriage would have destroyed, more or less, her scholar achievement. She would have also been expected to carry enough children to ensure a male heir.
So no, married Jasnah wouldn’t have been the scholar she now is and she knows it. She purposely chose to be the person she now is. I would be immensely deceived if she had been forced to reject marriage for “other reasons” than she just did not want it.
Kei Rin @53 – Personally, I believe that Navani’s scholarship did not suffer due to her marriage. She is a respected fabriole (spelling?) scholar. I don’t think that her scholarship suffered due to child rearing. They have servants and Parshmen (gasps!) for that. Being queen might have affected it though I doubt it. It’s just a matter of time management.
I believe Navani’s problem is that she is now th dowager queen which is basically a nobody in the grand scheme of things. As dowager she does not have any political clout. If she does, then she would have taken Elhokar’s scholars instead of Dalinar’s. Or are they one and the same since they all belong to House Kholin.
In my eyes, Navani is neither good nor bad. She is partly typical of her class with the added ability of being a genius. (I’m using this term loosely). So she can fix and even design fabrioles.
That said, there is nothing wrong about Navani not being able to design bridges, etc.You can be an architect but not an engineer, and vice versa. I see Navani more of an architect. She imagines things. And then she asks her engineers to build it. And if you really look at it, that is how the real world is.
Need proof? Steve Jobs was an idea man. He imagined things. He might be able to write code but he had an army of programmers at his beck and call too. Then he has hardware people. In fact, it is Intel who actually makes the chip.
In short, in my eyes, Navani is doing exactly what she should be doing. Imagining things, pushing the boundaries and then pushing her scholars to turn her dreams into reality.
@54
I think this is a case of us seeing the same thing from different angles again. I think of Jasnah’s decision that marriage isn’t something for her as something that is informed by multiple reasons. Her parents unhappy marriage being one thing. The limitation and expectations out of marriage for another. The fact that her choice of way that she wants to live her life is secure without the necessity of marriage is probably another smaller factor. (Like life; Jasnah finds a way.- What’s up Jurassic Park reference!) Jasnah is firm believer that women can make their own decision about how they will live their life, as evidenced by the way she lives hers and her own writing that Shallan reads in the flash backs. Even when she brings up Shallan’s marriage/bethrothal to Adolin as a solution, I get the impression that if Shallan wasn’t for it Jasnah would just try to find another solution.
The fact that I think Jasnah has multiple reasons for choosing that marriage isn’t for her, doesn’t take away from her choice in my mind.
The only way I would be disappointed is if I found out that one of those reasons was from some kinda ridiculous situation like her not being allowed to marry an Aimian or something equally out there.
Gepeto @54 – I missed this
Hmm… I don’t think so. This point of view is so Victorian age till the 1950s Earth. And even if they are Terrans, because of Navani’s rank and Jasnah’s too, this does not hold water.
First – Child rearing – they have servants for that. Even on Earth, the monarchies have servants to raise their children. I have not really read that part of European history but reading enough Regency romance novels somehow gave me an idea. And even with Prince William and Prince Henry, if the tabloids are to be believed, the late Princess Diana had to to fight Queen Elizabeth II for the two boys not to be sent to boarding school at an early age. Diana actually raised the two princes longer than what was usually expected.
Second – when was it that pregnancy was a reason for women not to be able to think? I mean, they are pregnant, not sick. So, even when Navani was pregnant with Jasnah and Elhokar, I believe she would still be able to design her fabrioles and think of clever things.
Primary scribe – perhaps… though I see it more on “confidential” or “secret” matters. They have a hierarchy of scribes. So, there will be many. I can see Navani drafting confidential documents like a peace treaty with the Parshendi. But day to day scribe work can go to the army of scribes that they maintain.
As for following her husband where he goes – that is the culture of the Alethi. All the High Princes have their wives with them. That said, when Gavilar travels, I believe that he has his “household” with him and that includes scholars and scribes. So, Navani might be physically in a different location, but her household remains the same.
Back to Jasnah – I believe that Jasnah’s reasons for not marrying are entirely her own. She had seen that her parents had an unhappy marriage, so why bother. It is not her duty to provide an heir, it was Elhokar’s. She felt guilty about not being able to stop her father’s assassination, so she is working hard to assuage that guilt. From there, let me just make the conclusion that she “forgot” that she can choose to marry if she wanted to. And she is only 33. She might be an old maid by Alethkar’s standards but though her biological clock is ticking, it has not stopped yet. :-)
Nothing against your argument. It just does not hold water for the social structure of the Alethi society.
@sheiglagh
Good point about Navani being more of an planner/designer than the engineer. I’m now wondering if Navani sees herself in this light or if maybe she judges herself by harsher standards? I’m thinking that she does, Navani doesn’t seem like the type to go easy on herself.
@Kei Rin on 58 – yes you’re right. Navani sees herself as both architect and engineer. And that’s a lot of hubris on her part. But, that is her character.
On the other hand though, she might believe that she is only reverse engineering a lot of things. Which of course, we had seen her do with her fabrioles. What Navani does not see is that reverse engineering is actually also a lot of designing.
In short, Navani might be her own worst enemy when it comes to judging herself.
I don’t understand one thing though. And it has always bothered me. Jasnah has a strong personality like her parents. But Elhokar seem so weak, though as Dalinar had observed Elhokar also has flashes of genius when it comes to insight.
Was Navani so self absorbed that she did not train her son on Alethi politics? Jasnah might be first born but Elhokar is the heir. He should have been given the same training that Adolin had and then some because Elhokar is the crown prince.
Speaking of training. – @Gepeto – IIRC you were wondering if male children gets tutoring? I believe they do but they are trained for the art of war. Parents of lighteyes hire weapons masters of weapons tutor. I was listening to one of Shallan’s flashbacks and it was mentioned that Balat just started training with the new weapons instructor that their father hired. So, at least in Ja Kaved, we have proof that male children also get tutors for the part of the arts that Vorinism deem masculine.
I don’t understand one thing though. And it has always bothered me. Jasnah has a strong personality like her parents. But Elhokar seem so weak, though as Dalinar had observed Elhokar also has flashes of genius when it comes to insight.
Was Navani so self absorbed that she did not train her son on Alethi politics? Jasnah might be first born but Elhokar is the heir. He should have been given the same training that Adolin had and then some because Elhokar is the crown prince.
I think it’s more of a complex than a matter of training. Elhokar seems to be a fairly intelligent and capable person but he is surrounded by some of the most badass Alethi people ever. How is anyone supposed to live up to that? I suspect his childhood was filled with unfair comparisons to his more illustrious kin which leads him to go to extremes in search of approval. Combine that with an extreme (and quite justified) fear of assassination and you have a very troubled individual. I really hope Kaladin decides to help him. A big shot of confidence could go a long way for that young man.
I think it’s because we never really see Elokhar at his best. Like @wingracer said in @60, Elokhar is fairly intelligent. And we’ve seen he actually is able to read the situation of the Alethi court pretty well. He picked up on what Sadeas wants right away in the 4 on 1 duel. He knew how the High Princes are going to react to the proclamations. The only problem is that he’s not by nature a leader. He can read the situation but he’s shown he’s no good at directing the situation to what he wants. It might be a case of the fact that he can see too clearly what the “pattern” of the court actually is. Unlike Dalinar who can only somewhat read the court but knows what he wants to see and will do everything to direct the Alethi to that point.
Another thing to consider is that maybe it wasn’t up to Navani to train Elhokar for the Aleti court. Maybe that was Gavilar’s job. Not absolving Navani completely but it’s an explanation. Navani does see how weak Elhokar is as king and she’s commented on it a couple times to Dalinar. Who knows maybe that was another thing they fought about. *shrug*
@@@@@ 59 sheiglagh
It’s possible that Civics and politics may actually be masculines arts that Navani wouldn’t be allowed to teach Elhokar. It’s far more likely that she just doesn’t have a strong background in them herself.
Personally, I believe there is rather a lot of evidence to suggest that she does not understand politics or people as a whole even a little bit.
Elhokar’s wife, Aesudan, is doing an abominable job as regent ruler of Kholinar and Alethkar in her husband’s place. Yet Navani, who was supposed to be looking after the queen, left. And she told Dalinar that Aesudan was doing a good job without her.
There are two major reasons that that was a colossally stupid thing for her to do:
First, she left a woman in charge with no oversight that was doing to Alethkar basically everything Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette did to France right up until they were violently deposed.
Second, she didn’t tell either Dalinar, the man she ostensibly loves–and whose judgement about politics and the country as a whole she allegedly admires, or her son the king that Aesudan was wrecking their country at its very heart.
What’s the point of beating the remaining Parshendi if there is no Alethkar to return to when they’re done? So why did she leave, and why did she lie to Dalinar?
There’s only one plausible reason. She has no idea just how much damage the queen is doing.
Maybe she’s too into her own research to see it, or maybe she just doesn’t understand the political and psychological implications of the queen’s actions for the populous. Either way, Navani will be at least partially responsible for the death and damage that occurs.
It’s ultimately Aesudan’s fault. But Navani could have warned Dalinar. She should have warned Elhokar. If she had, they might have been able to send someone back sooner. She didn’t, and thus we eventually have the riots of I-12.
@57: Have you ever been pregnant? It is not pregnant women cannot think, but pregnancy does weird things to you and for some of us, technical aspects such as engineering suddenly become so irrelevant in the scope of actually having a child. Things that previously mattered become… less important… Concentration is more difficult, breathing is more difficult. You ache everywhere, you are tired when you are not sick and your mind wanders on other things. Now of course, pregnancy is different for every woman and even on one woman each pregnancy is different for the previous one. However, the fact remains you get this absurd hormones rush that makes you behave differently then you would have.
So yes, pregnancy is not ideal when you want to devoid your life to scholarship. Any woman with children is forced, one day, to consider her life choices and adjust them. We do not know how Alethi raise their young, but for a woman who’s just given birth, to give away her child to a nanny and to go back to her full scale studies in another corner of the world…. That’s harsh, very harsh and many would choose to screw up the scholarship to remain close to the child, because most women actually attach themselves to the child… even women such as Jasnah… Besides, even if you hire a nanny, you still see your child, you still spend time with it, you just do not have the same freedom. Navani talks on how Jasnah would argue endlessly with her as she tried to put her to bed… Navani put Jasnah to bed, not the nanny… That’s a clue.
However, the life of married woman is not just to bear children, it also is to support your husband. Dalinar suffers from not having a wife to act as primary scribe and has been told he should have remarried. It is a handicap. Had he had a wife, she would not have been able to spend months in Karbranth to do some research: she would be by his side. This would have been her duty. Wife may not always be at their husband sides, Aseduan isn’t, but they still have duties to fulfill which would clash with intense scholarship as Jasnah is currently pursuing.
It is impossible for Jasnah, the married woman, to have had as much freedom as she currently have to continue her research. She would have had to compromise and she made it rather clear she was not willing to do so.
As for Elhokar being intelligent, I am honestly still waiting for him to show some wits. He has yet to display his cleverness if he has any. As for Dalinar observing flashes of genius in Elhokar, someone bring the quote forward as all I remember is Dalinar insisting Elhokar was a strong and capable leader while not being able to prove it. All in all, Dalinar sees no fault in Elhokar, to overcome he is by his guilt over Galivar’s death.
@kei_rin @wcarter @wingracer – thanks for the insight. You mentioned things that I never really thought of. Now, I wish we know more about Elhokar. :-)
@Gepeto – to answer your question about pregnancy will be TMI for this forum, so I will just leave it at that. I’m not being uppity or anything. But, being too personal around here is not good. We are discussing Alethi culture not us. And though I mentioned the British royal family, what I said had been on the news and the tabloids. I know that it might sound hypocritical on my part but I always believe that if it had been on national news or international news, then it is okay to mention it in open forums like this. :-) Cheers!
@62 wcarter, I believe that you’re being too harsh on Navani. She had complained to Dalinar about being shunted off from any position of influence in Aesudan’s court in Kholinar. Furthermore, the riots due to Aesudan’s mismanagement of the city apparently came after Navani had left. Perhaps her disadvantaged position as a figurehead prevented her from seeing the harm that was being done by the powers that be in the royal court. In any case, there is no mention in the book, to my recollection, that Elhokar questioned his mother about the situation in Kholinar. Perhaps he didn’t want to learn of any problems there since he was committed to remaining in the Shattered Plains to ostensibly oversee the war against the Parshendi, and was unwilling to overrule his wife. While it may not be explicitly stated in the book, Dalinar appears to suspect that things aren’t going well in the kingdom, and that the prolonged war abroad is counterproductive. Elhokar, however, refuses to countenance such a change in war goals regardless of the situation in the kingdom. I would, therefore, place the blame on allowing the situation in Kholinar to deteriorate on Elhokar rather than on Navani.
@@@@@ 65 STBLST
My original point wasn’t to convict Navani. It was mostly just to say that she doesn’t seem all that politically skilled herself, and wouldn’t be a great choice as the person to teach Elhokar on that particular subject matter..
As far as the blame game goes, technically it’s always going to be the King’s fault at least to some extent when a monarchy fails/collapses. In fact I’d say Elhokar shares about as much of the blame as Navani (with Aesudan still retaining far and away the lion’s share). I just don’t see Navani as being completely innocent of blame.
She may not have been able to prevent Aesudan from horribly mismanaging the place. I can agree to that. It’s plausible and even likely. But she was supposed to be helping/watching over her daughter-in-law. To quote the popular meme: She had one job.
She dropped the ball because she didn’t tell Elhokar that his wife was screwing things up (and that’s assuming she didn’t also outright lie to Dalinar when she said Aesudan was doing fine) going by Lhan and Pai’s behavior in I-12, it was not an overnight change.
So either Navani completely failed to notice anything that was going on (a dereliction of duty), or she did notice and somehow didn’t think “hey my son might need to know that his queen is pissing off the masses and they’re about to revolt.”
Dalinar had a general sense of unease because he knew enough about history to know that second-generation monarchies can be unstable and that uniting the High Princes might be easier back in Alethkar where they would not be competing with each other for gem hearts every day instead. I doubt he knew that Aesudan was truly as horrible as she is.
In any case, Elhokar wasn’t convinced by Dalinar to return, but Dalinar had been with him in the Shattered Plains for years. Navani on the other hand had been at home. She had front row seats. His mother may have been able to get him to listen to reason where his uncle failed.
Just started rereading Way of Kings, and when Navani first shows up, Dalinar’s thoughts are about how adept she is at ferreting out rumors and information. (Well…that’s ONE part of his thoughts!) Not that that’s all there is to politics, but it’s certainly an important part.
Beyond that, everyone had been saying that the center of Alethi power had shifted to the Shattered Plains and in effect it was the new capital. Maybe she felt it was more important to be there. Based on Aesudan’s personality, I can’t see Navani having any great affection for her; and on the other hand her son (who’s in real danger of assassination), the man she loves, and the rest of her family (minus Jasnah, who’s planning to come there eventually) are all in the Shattered Plains. I see her as being more invested in them and being there to help them (and yeah, to court Dalinar) than caring about the kingdom per se. (I kind of agree – I’m much more invested in what’s going on in the Shattered Plains, Urithiru, and Hearthstone than I am in the rather academic knowledge that there are riots in Kholinar. Who cares? I probably should, but whatever.)
Finally, what I can remember of the interlude with the two Ardents in Kholinar is that things seemed stable enough and that the zealous/principled young female Ardent took everyone by surprise.
On the Elhokar front, in the same conversation that Navani first appears (WOK chapter 22) she tells Dalinar that Elhokar’s rule is weak. [Might that be another reason she came to the Plains – to help shore up Elhokar’s rule by shoring him up, rather than trying to run interference with Aesudan?] In reply, Dalinar says “What? Elhokar is a good man! He has more integrity than any other lighteyes in this army.”
I don’t know how brilliant he is, and Kaladin would surely think that “more integrity than any other lighteyes” didn’t mean much. But I still think Elhokar, like Renarin, has hidden potential. He does read the politics pretty well – often better than Dalinar or Adolin, certainly. He’s also intelligent enough to know that he’s failing, and conscientious enough to care about that, and smart enough (and desperate enough) to ask for help. Occasionally he’s able to admit mistakes and back down…given enough time, anyway. Plus he sees Cryptics…or some other creepy mirror creatures.
@Alice re: redheads in violet – I’ll yield to your (and your stylist/color analyst) on this matter. I seem to remember that on that Facebook color-blindness test awhile back you scored in the 20s while I got a 9, so…plus, I actually didn’t realize that @30 had been recolored. I thought I just hadn’t been conscious of the purple before. Yes, this happens when you’re color-weak to color-blind.
Anyway, I expect an update on the color analysis when we get to a Warbreaker rereread.
Re: Aesudan and Navani’s observations: I don’t have a solid timeline for TWoK, but Navani showed up at the Shattered Plains fairly early in the book, meaning she left Kholinar at least a couple of weeks earlier. Interlude 12 happens during the upcoming Weeping. The interval between Navani’s departure and the events of the Interlude have to be at least four or five Rosharan months (50 days each), and quite possibly more. I can’t take the time right now to construct or build the TWoK timeline, but it’s got to be something like that. Obviously things aren’t likely to go from exemplary to awful in that length of time, but depending on certain outside influences, it could go from “more or less okay from a lighteyes perspective” to the situation in Interlude 12. And I’m betting that there are outside influences involved.
@@@@@ Gepeto: Sorry, when I read your “no one agrees with me” comment, I had to smile. You became Eeyore, in a very sweet friendly way inside my head. I have several Eeyore type friends, they are great to have debates with.
Marriages:
I have to say that I’m more impressed with the Kholin family of not selling their children into marriage. In RL if a person came to power and hammered a country together by force and personality, their children and other relations would be on the sale block to cement alliances. So for only the king’s son to be married, is actually surprising. And we don’t know if it was a “love” match or other arrangement.
Shallan fully expected to be “sold” into marriage. But the princes & princess don’t? Strange royal world.
Other items.
Reminder that we have a FB group to also talk about all things Sanderson. With his upcoming books that are not SA, I see people wanting a space to talk. I’m not on the 17th Shard. It intimidates me a little.
Storm Cellar: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1393251621001084/
Also on Face Book is a Lego building genius fan who love Sanderson, named Rick Martin. He has depicted both books as Lego figures. Links to all of WOR is on the Storm Cellar page. Other links are below. Sorry, he doesn’t have them on a non-FB page.
Rick Martin – FB page
https://www.facebook.com/fastlindyrick
Part 4 of WoR. Multiple pictures of the upcoming 4-on-1 battle are shown
https://www.facebook.com/fastlindyrick/media_set?set=a.10206526279223783.1073741840.1474667500&type=3&pnref=story
@69: Eeyore? Oh well, if the hat fits… I assure however I live a very happy real life. I perhaps tend to get to hook up on certain things or perhaps it is I care too much. I assure you however I do change my mind quite often on things as the saying goes “only fools never change their minds.”. However it is possible you are not seeing it this reread discussion as I tend to avoid getting too personal. Not here.
I wonder, why is it you find the 17th Shard intimidating? You can PM me if you do not want to answer here. I find the Tor.com more intimidating than the 17th Shard, so I am curious.
As for the Kholin not marrying their children, well Dalinar has given us enough reason to believe in his endeavors. He wants Adolin to marry for love and not political reasons, though he seems to have realized people are trying to use his son for leverage and he does not like it. Especially since the boy is easily swept away and does not get it the first time around.
However, I do agree the reasons why Jasnah was not forced to marry are strange… You would think the king would have insisted on tying alliances by forcing her daughter to marry. Obviously he didn’t though he did marry Elhokar at a very young age… What to think of it? Favored daughter who got her way and non favored son who was forced to marry a viper?
@wingracer, @kei_rin @wcarter @STBLST @chaplainchris1 @Wetlandernw – Thanks for your insights re: Elhokar. Collectively, you guys mentioned things that I have not even thought about.
@wcarter
This is actually a random thought. when you mentioned Marie Antoinette, all I can think of is her famous non-quote, “Let them eat cake” which historians BTW had proven that Marie Antoinette never said.
Another thing is that the U.S. revolutionary war also had a part on the downfall of Louis XVI. He spent money to support the U.S. to fight against the UK just out of spite to the British whom France had been warring for centuries. Instead of spending the money to improve the situation in France, he actually sent it to the U.S.
And, did you know that both Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were both very young when they took over France? Marie Antoinette was only 14 and Louis XVI was only 20.
Somehow, I cannot help myself but compare Elhokar to Louis XVI. Though Louis XIV is Louis XVI’s grandfather, the Sun King casts a long shadow up to today though both are already historical figures. I am not trying to defend Louis XVI. I just want to recognize the fact that if he did not help the U.S. revolutionary force, history might not be what we know today.
@@@@@ 70 Gepeto
Well, Gavilar was trying to set up Jasnah with Amaram in the prologue. He might have just gotten killed before he decided he would have force his daughter to marry someone. Favoritism might well have played a part on his putting up with her refusal as long as he did. Someone might want to ask Brandon about that one.
I do wonder if there’s any love in Elhokar’s marriage at all. Do we know if he’s gone home at all during the six years they’ve been fighting on the Shattered Plains?
Seems like a long time to leave you wife. A “viper” as you say whose existence you are forced to put up with for purely political reasons on the other hand, leaving her behind would make perfect sense.
@70: In the prologue, Jasnah is 28 years old… In a world where they marry in their late teens, early twenties to the latest, the fact her father is still trying to set her up as she nears her thirties is amendable. The Kholin have all but nearly given up on setting Adolin and he is much younger: Shallan is pretty much his last chance girl. If it fails, he has practically no one left to date.
Elhokar and Aseduan have been together some times during those 6 years, there is a WoB about it. They do have a baby, so they kinda need to have been together…
Happy Labor Day!
oh the labor pains! I think I shan’t do any scholarship or lead any armies today!
I’m enjoying the Navani discussion. She irks me. Why did she leave Kholinar? Why does she not seem to get along well with her children? Why did her marriage to Gavilar have problems? Why is she dazzling Dalinar? Does she have any regrets?
It irks me that she keeps bringing up Shshsh. I believe she doesn’t know Dalinar erased her from his memories, but Navani brings her up to discover what it was about Shshsh that enticed Dalinar. She’s frustrated he won’t say anything. It bugs me that she won’t let it go.
Then I start to wonder, why did Dalinar erase Shshsh from his memory? Was he really so hurt? Or does he also have regrets?…
Anyway, I’m irked that Navani seems more involved with Dalinar’s family than her own. Why does this bug me so much? I guess I need a psychiatrist!
Navani’s conversation style, to me, comes across as very flippant. “Oh, I must do something, these fabrials are awesome, I’m a dowager now,,poor me! Dalinar, walk this way with me. Kholinar was so boring darling. Why won’t Jasnah write me?” ( Not actual quotes, just my mean girl interpretation. ). See what I mean? She crawls up my @&$! But maybe it’s just a cover she uses…
I really only like her for writing down Dalinar’s storm visions. I know she is trustworthy for that and seems most genuine in those moments.
Jasnah- I do think she avoids marriage not just for her scholarship, but because she could see the marriage problems of her own parents. It seems our parents marriage effects our own ideas of marriage and I would apply this to Jasnah as well. And maybe just to put the icing on the cake, trying to be set up with Amaran (who I bet she saw right through) totally turned her off any partnership.
As far as women’s duty over men’s duty, I feel we could be applying our own Earth ideas onto Cosmere ideas. Although, Shallan did read one of Jasnah’s writings about women’s role in society and if my memory serves, Jasnah’s writing did feel very Earthly feminist. Almost as if, through her writing, Jasnah’s was justifying her decision to remain single and scholarly.
Oh! More labor pains, pardon me if anything was incoherent. I’ll blame my kids for that! No thanks, I don’t want to be flippant. I take full responsibility. After all, it was my choice to have them! Luckily, I like their father!!!
Pertaining to Jasnah and Amamram… Jasnah was 28 years old when her father tried to set her up with him. It is impossible he was her first and only prospect. According to the Alethi traditions, Galivar should have been trying to marry his daughter since the time she turned 16. She did not suddenly decided she would not marry because her prospect was Amaram: she must have had decided on that before as surely there were other men before him.
Dalinar highlights how badly seen he is for letting his son have his choice in terms of wife. He ponders about it quite often, but never once mentioned his brother did the same for Jasnah, which leads me to believe Galivar did try to marry his daughter, but she stubbornly refused.
However, I sincerely doubt Jasnah refusal to marry is tied in any way to Amaram. At 28 years old, this was a decision she had most likely made a decade ago.
As for Navani, she does care about her children. She simply is not a very demonstrative person. She tends to keep her emotions to herself, bottled up inside, but towards the end of WoR, she was deeply worried about her son. She also expressed worry all through the book they would take him for her just as they took her husband and her daughter. She may sound more motherly with Adolin, but Adolin is naturally very affectionate and probably yearned for her attention more than her own children (Dalinar states how Adolin often goes back to being as child when around her and let her get away with things nobody else could. Let’s try to imagine Jasnah behaving the same…). Elhokar and Jasnah both sound very independant. However, I have no doubt she loves her children deeply, as deeply any sane mother.
Oh, I agree Amaram is not the ONLY reason Jasnah decided not to marry.
I also agree she made that decision YEARS ago. Way before she was set up with Amaram or other suitors.
I love Jasnah, but I’m also a bit scared of her. (Her sense of justice)
Can’t wait for the next book! This re read is all that’s keeping me together!
Wow!!! So many opinions on Navani and I thought I was the only one wondering about her relationship with her children.
I really can’t wait for Book 3 which goes all the way back 30 years when Gavilar, Navani and Dalinar were all very young.
There has never been any doubt in my mind Navani loves her children, but as all parent/children relationship, hers is not perfect. The mother/daughter relationship can be especially difficult: it is not rare to observe difficulties with this one. Navani clearly states how Jasnah changed from a curious lightened child to a close-up distant one as she became a teenager. Many people have assumed her “breaking point” occurred then, whereas I tend to believe it was too far away in the past… I simply think Jasnah grew away from her mother due to personal reasons. Perhaps she ressented the fact Navani gave up a potential career as a scholar to become Galivar’s wife. Perhaps she also saw what her mother got in return: a loveless marriage. Perhaps she thought her mother was giving in more, in terms of compromises, than she was getting. Perhaps many other things as well, teenagers can be harsh when judging their parents.
However, no matter where the truth lays, Navani loves her children deeply. She is just not the kind of person to say “I love you” easily and neither are her children. Come to think of it, Dalinar is not particularly demonstrative of affection towards his own, except perhaps Renarin. However, he is never affectionate with Adolin, but more business-like. In a sense, he is not behaving unlike Navani, though I suspect his reasons are different.
As for Navani, both her children seem to prefer to not have her interfere with their affairs. Her daughter-in-law pretty much shunned her away from the court. I have no doubt she was kept away from her grand-son as well. She is thus a lonely aging woman with no one to turn to. Nobody wants her, nobody has a need for her, even her scholars only suffer her as she is generous with them, but would gladly do without her (though not her money). All in all, she has gotten useless. Little wonder she tried to re-kinked her former passion for Dalinar, little wonder she is seen to openly care for her nephews whom are more reactive to her affection then her own children.
As for her thoughts about Shshshsh, I do think she was being sincere when she said she wished they could have been friends. I do not think she was unfaithful to Galivar, but having been so unhappy with him, she naturally wondered if she had made the right choice, all those years back.
That being said, I also think Navani has the bad tendency to judge people’s intellect while wearing her engineer googles: all except a few fail short which is why I doubt Shshshsh was as dumb as she lets on.
Baring psychoanalyst of myself, I think what could irk me about Navani is I perceive her as putting up a front, wearing a mask, being fake.
I remember her saying that she worries about “them” taking away her son as they did Gavilar. That was one of her few genuine moments.
When she transcribes the storm visions, I see her there as her “real” self. She gets excited that Dalinar may be translating the dawn chant. She studies the visions like a scholar. Then I say to myself, ” Now I see Jasnah’s mother.”
But when she tries to get “romantic ” with Dalinar, I just want to shake her. “You already have him! He’s yours! He told you so! Stop trying so hard. “. Ugh. I feel like she’s still treating him like when they were kids. They aren’t kids anymore. There’s no more competition. Stop working him
I’m just free writing now cause I gotta go to work.
Ciao!
You see, I have a very different opinion of Navani… Yes, she tries too hard, but at the same time, she is desperate.
Dalinar is basically all she has left.
Her children are not interested in her.
The kingdom she has sacrificed everything for has thrown her out in favor of the new queen.
She has not pursue her scholarship as perhaps she would have, had she not married Galivar.
She has no occupation.
Everyone think her an eccentric.
Little wonder she tries so hard with him… If he says no, then she is back to being alone and useless.
She does have a mask, but I think it is one of sadness. We do see the real Navani, when she is busy, occupied, usefull… In a way, it is as if she yearns to be a mother and a wife again: her entire behavior with her nephews, with Shallan, with Dalinar gives me this impression and if she tries too hard, I feel it is because she has only one basket left to put her eggs into.
Speaking of SA3: who else is looking forward to a reunion of Jasnah/ Navani. And Jasnah / Shallan.
I wonder if Jasnah will approve of her mother’s and Dalinar’s relationship?
Reporting back, for anyone still interested…
For those unfamiliar with the terms, this is a color analysis which places you into a “season” for your color palette. Within each season, there are more breakdowns by light/dark, strong/soft, and something else I can’t remember. (She’s the analyst, not me!) Most redheads fall into the autumn category, with a few in spring as noted. Of course, in order to do a real analysis, you need an actual person to work with…
As I said before, you can cover up your natural skin tone with a lot of makeup; for internet and magazine pictures, you can airbrush and photoshop until it looks good. But naturally… let’s just say that I’ll never be convinced that violet is one of Shallan’s best colors!
Edit to add the caveat about fictional character, as in my original email, and clarify a little. Also to add the following:
Of course, this is a fictional world, and there’s no guarantee that humans on Roshar would necessarily have the same coloring patterns as humans on earth. So… I can either go with the idea that “Rosharans are just that different” or be bugged by it. Unfortunately, my mind does not always obey what I tell it, so I expect I’ll have to settle for being bugged.
Let me add a thought to Gepeto’s analysis of Navani. Alethi parents, or at least Kholins, tend to be controlling. Kaladin’s father strongly pushed him to a career as a surgeon despite his son’s reservations about where his interests truly lay. Dalinar dictates to his grown sons what they should wear and what wine is appropriate. If Navani’s parental style was similar, it would clash with Jasnah’s independent – if not arrogant, personality. That, itself, would be a cause of friction and emotional distancing. It would not be a reflection of a lack of warmth. In fact, her repeated romantic overtures to Dalinar can be seen as an effort to be demonstrably loved by someone she loves.
@81
I am definitely looking forward to Jasnah and Shallan’s meeting in book 3. Especially given that Shallan told Dalinar (and Dalinar by extenstion probably has told Navani by now) that Jasnah is a surgebinger.
Umm… I just have to say that
is overstating the controlling-parent charge by a long shot. As highprince, Dalinar “dictates” (if you will) the standard of conduct to the entire Kholin army. Officers are to be in uniform when in public, weapons are to be maintained in ready condition, self-discipline is required… in other words, they are to conduct themselves by the Codes in time of war. The difference is perceptible at all levels; Kaladin remarks several times on the differences between the Kholin and Sadeas warcamps, and even Shallan notices significant differences between the Sadeas, Sebarial, and Kholin warcamps.
As officers in the Kholin army, of course Dalinar’s sons are expected to wear the appropriate uniform and maintain the same level of self-discipline and sobriety as the rest of the army – not because they’re his sons, but because they are officers.
It’s like saying the youth-league soccer coach is a “controlling parent” because he expects his kid to wear the same uniform and maintain the same standard of sportsmanship that is required of the rest of the team. He may or may not be a “controlling” person, but this doesn’t constitute evidence of it.
Funny how dress color has become a discussion point. Brandon caused a minor uproar in WoT, by putting an Aes Sedai in orange.
Wait a sec, is there orange Ajah? I don’t remember that, maybe it’s time to start of WoT re-read…
Heh. I think the uproar was over whether or not “orange” was recognized as a color in WoT, and there turned out to be approximately one use of the word, with regard to a sunset (or sunrise?) in the second book. Something like that. But those WoT fans are an uproarious bunch. ;)
As for me and the violet dress… I’ve discovered that it comes down to the same reason I don’t like Leckie’s Ancillary books, and why I get so irritated with some of the fan art I see. And why I don’t read GRRM, for that matter, as well as any number of other things.
I visualize when I read. I visualize everything when I read. There are things that I can’t not see, and what’s been seen cannot be unseen. (By me, anyway.) The Ancillary books irritate me because she won’t let me visualize; GRRM writes things that I never ever ever want to visualize.
@@@@@ Several
Navani is such an interesting character to me. She seems to be a woman who cares deeply for her family. Otherwise she would have never drawn and burned a giant prayer glyph in red ink right in front of Sadeas and everyone and to hell what the Alethi think about her being involved with her brother-in-law. And she desperately wants to be treated as a mother by someone despite the fact her own children apparently have little to do with her, so she gets along with Adolin quite famously.
She also obviously loves discovery and fabrial engineering as well. To the point it seems strange to her that not everyone else shares that fascination (I can relate, I feel the same way about white water rafting).
I’m definitely looking forward to upcoming meetings and reunions. For some reason, I get the feeling that Navani’s first reaction to Jasnah is going to be a full-on face slap followed by breaking down and crying, and possibly a rib cracking hug. Any mothers in the group want to chime in on this theory?
But the meeting I’m most interested in oddly enough is Jasnah and Elhokar. We’ve never actually seen either one say anything about his/her opinion on the other that I can remember. Jasnah came darn close to having Aesudan assassinated in the prolouge and would have had she decided the woman was an active threat to her family. I’m wondering if it wasn’t actually her brother that she might have thought was endangered.
@@@@@85 Alice
As per usual you’ve said something that needed to be said so much better than I could have.
@89: Yes, I agree with your portrayal of Navani: it is pretty much in sync with the one I wrote. I’d also like to point out the absolute change of behavior in her towards Shallan after she comes back from the chasm: she went from ice cold to mother hen within a matter of minutes… Dalinar promptly commented on it stating mother hen just found herself a new chick.
As for how she would react upon seeing Jasnah again? When a lost child suddenly comes back home, as a parent, I do think the most plausible reaction is to hug her and to tell her all she wished she had said before. Three simple words.
I love you.
Jasnah and Elhokar are siblings with a great age difference. Typically, those end up being raised as two single children as the age difference prohibits any child play. Older siblings with strong parental instinct may act as a second mother/father to the younger one, but those devout of it may simply ignore their young brother/sister until they grow old enough to become interesting, to them. I thus think Jasnah and Elhokar never grew to be close as they likely never shared much playtime as children, which explains why Jasnah states she did her things while her brother did his and they try not to intervene within each others affairs.
Strangely, we also have Dalinar and Galivar which I think are very close siblings which explains how they grew into a relationship tainted by rivalry and competition as well as love. Very typical.
Oddly, Adolin and Renarin seem to have the middle range in terms of age difference… The one where they are close enough to grow up together and share play time, but large enough they don’t feel they need to compete. Large enough the older feels he needs to protect the younger one, but not so large he feels he needs to act as a parent, more as a friend.
It is interesting we seem to have gotten one of each type.
For me, I think, the rib-cracking hug would have to come first, followed by a lot of yelling (and a few choice words) directed at both her and Shallan.
@85 Wetlandernw, you have a point with regard to the uniform, but I continue to maintain that the control that Dalinare exercises over his sons’ wine is more than what the codes would demand. There is no corresponding demand of his troops, as I recall. Drunkenness would certainly be frowned on, but restricting wine to the non-alcholic or the mildest alcoholic varieties is something demanded only of his sons. Dalinar justifies such restriction as the requirement for someone in his family. Perhaps, I am overgeneralizing and that Dalinar is particularly zealous about wine drinking given his earlier history of drunkenness and consequent failure to protect his brother. The problem that we have and that you have often alluded to is that we only have a small part of the story of many protagonists at this point in the series. We know of Kaladin’s history since early boyhood, and Shallan from older girlhood. We know virtually nothing yet about the early life of the Kholins. That lack of knowledge leads to speculation and rationalizations such as what I attempted.
@92: I am with you with Dalinar and alcohol. His restrictions did seem excessive: Adolin is barely allowed to drink anything else than juice, even when he is off function (come to think of it, is Adolin ever off function?). None of the boys are allowed to drink violet wine: ever. These kind of restrictions are above usual… officers out of duty are supposed to be allowed some leeway. The army usually allows its soldiers free time after a given period of time. There is a world between being wasted and enjoying one evening once in a while…. It’s been 6 whole years of this regiment, 6 whole years where the boys were not allowed any freedom whatsoever. Adolin, it seems, is never off duty as for Renarin, he is not an officer. Why he needs to comply to these rules is beyond me. There is no other reason than Dalinar wanting his sons to follow his lead.
He is so going to bad trip once he finds out what Adolin did… If he can’t accept seeing the boy drink ONE glass of violet wine, what he is going to say in front of murder?
I yearn to know more about the Kholins. I find it unfair we know so much about Kaladin and Shallan while we virtually know nothing of the Kholins and they are three characters, not just one. I sincerely hope book 3 will help even it out and not just for Dalinar. I want the boys backstory as well.
@@@@@ SBLST and Gepeto
Dalinar has stated multiple times that if he could enforce universal adherence to the Codes, he would.
The codes specify the actions of officers during war time. I don’t think they talk about enlisted men except to say don’t give them orders you wouldn’t be willing to carry out yourself. So he probably lets them blow off steam while they’re off duty within reason (I can only imagine the penalties for say damaging property or harassing women are quite severe within the Kholin camp).
But I think the main reason he doesn’t ever allow Adolin and Renarin to unbend is not that he doesn’t trust him or allow them to think for themselves but actually the exact opposite. They are the only two people other than himself he absolutely can rely upon to stay sober in the case of a surprise attack at one of the noble parties.
Is he paranoid? Yeah probably a little. But then again, his brother was killed while he was drunk, and they weren’t expecting that one either so…
STBLST – There’s a fairly strong indication that all of Dalinar’s officers adhere to the prohibition on drunkenness. They certainly follow the requirements on uniforms, and there’s never a suggestion that a Kholin officer is seen getting sloshed. There’s only one scene in which Dalinar specifically instructs his sons to limit themselves to a single glass of (intoxicating) blue wine and then stick to orange – at one of Elhokar’s feasts where it’s extremely important that not only Dalinar, but also his family, need to be in control so as not to be provoked by Sadeas’s scheming. The restriction doesn’t seem all that overwhelming, in any case; Adolin can be observed drinking blue and yellow, both intoxicating. The only one they avoid is the violet, which is described variously as “the most intoxicating” wine, and “among the strongest of liquors.”
So I still say, until you can find me a drunken Kholin officer whose drunkenness is accepted by Dalinar, that Adolin and Renarin are held to the same standard as the rest of Dalinar’s officers.
Dalinar holding his sons to a higher standard seems like the right move to me. Think about it. He’s trying to change the entire culture of Alethkar and how they wage war. How much of a joke would he look like if his sons were seen to ignore his edicts? At best he would be seen as a hypocrite, at worst completely ineffectual. The other high princes already look down on him because he isn’t the Blackthorn they once knew.
Kaladin is ranked as Captain, a position usually reserved to lighteyes of the 4th dahn. I do not know if he counts as an officer, but he surely is allowed to drink as shown by his trip to the bar… He doesn’t join his men into the drinking contest because he does not want to, not because he is obeying any rules. Hence, Kaladin is allowed to go out and drink in his free time.
I thus do not think the prohibition is applied as strictly on all officers.
I understand what Dalinar is doing, however never allowing his son to blow out some steam, once every month or so is pretty harsh. By blowing some steam, I do not mean getting drunk, but being able to drink more than one glass… The only time we see Adolin take more than one glass is with Shallan and I had the distinct impression he was cheating… as he clearly stated he was allowed one glass of blue wine as he was not on gem hunt duty on the morrow. He took two and two we clearly not enough to give him any feeling whatsoever, so probably the equivalent of two beers.
As for wine colors and achohol levels, do we have a correspondance list? Adolin states he can’t get any “feeling” out of a single glass of blue wine, which makes me believe it is not very strong. He also downs one in about 10 minutes with Shallan and is still very sober. On the other hand, he claims a glass of yellow helps him calm down before duels, but it can’t be intoxicating else he would not be drinking it. Doing sports after just one glass of wine is bad, bad, bad…. Tried it. Not a good idea.
For myself, I think orange is like juice, really or a 0.5% cooler. Yellow is probably like light beer 1-2%. Blue wine is probably like beer at 5% while violet wine seems like wine at 12%. We see people drink full glasses of it which makes me think it is not liquor: you don’t drink a full glass of liquor, but a very small one.
Thoughts?
@97: Alcohol break down. That could work.
Of course I’m originally from Oklahoma, the land of 3.2% beer. So beer definitions vary in strength.
But if 12% violent wine is the “most intoxicating”, that seems rather weak to be worried about. So I’m wondering if maybe blue wine is 12% and the violet is closer to 40-50%.
Has there been any discussion of stronger drinks – like whiskey or vodka? Besides the Horneater beer that dissolves cups.
Dalinar is probably hyper sensitive to the effects alcohol can have since he was passed out drunk when his brother was killed. And based on Jasnah reaction, that was not uncommon. So we can look at his as a recovering alcoholic.
@97 Gepeto
You have a point about Kaladin, but I’m not quite convinced with him as the only example of an “officer” who could drink. Kaladin isn’t a real officer. He is only given the rank “captain” for the express purpose of putting him outside the normal command structure.Despite his rank, he also cannot himself give any orders to any light eyes, even ones he technically outranks.
Given that he and his men work in rotating shifts and don’t seem to actually eat at the feasts, they’re pretty much always going to be sober when they are there anyways. And that’s if they are allowed to be there at all.
I’m not saying that Dalinar is the type to necessarily treat Kaladin differently, but his position is a little too unique to hold up as a standard for all officers all on its own.
FWIW, I mentally pegged violet wine at 20% abv–in the same category as fortified earthly beverages like port, sherry and Madeira. Following that would be blue at 12-14%, then successively lower alcohol content as we progress along the spectrum to red (the latter <1% abv).
For the purposes of this discussion, keep in mind that the definition of light beer in Europe (low alcohol content, like 1%) is a totally different animal than what we call light beer in the States (low calorie/carbs, but not nearly so low in alcohol as in Europe).
I agree that Dalinar is an alcoholic in remission.
ETA–wouldyalookatthat, the hunny. Which doesn’t seem worth crowing about in this blog. Just sayin’.
Minor point, if violet wine is at 20%, blue wine is at 14%, then yellow wine has to be around 5%… Adolin wouldn’t drink a 5% beverage right before entering the dueling ring, that would be awful for him to do so. He’d lose part of his cardio and would be likely to have cramps… Alchohol and sports: very very bad idea. Yellow wine thus has to be lower than that in terms of alchohol content. As for the blue wine, I doubt Adolin would down his this quickly if it were 14%. It’s kinda hard to drink wine this quickly, not impossible, but for someone who never drinks, it should hit, some, even if he’s big.
My thoughts remain the same. I would add horneater beer is the equivalent to strong liquor in the 20-40%, but that quite high. Shooters are about 20% and they are small. Try and have a full glass of Tequilla, no amount of lemon will save you. Above that… gee… you have to mix it with juice or jello, you just don’t drink that in a glass unless you are a crazy youth.
Kaladin may not be the proper example, but it does show the prohibition is not as strict on the men as it is on the young Kholins. He was not the only one in that bar….
@101
Just goes to show that several different conclusions can be reached with so many unknowns in the equation. However, if yellow wine is only 1% abv, then that doesn’t leave much wiggle-room for orange and red, which is entirely possible if the scale is distinctly non-linear.
@Ways: Sure it is. It’s rare for this blog! :-)
But maybe not as competitive as it is on Leigh’s.
Since Brandon doesn’t drink, we are probably putting more thought into the strength of the drinks than he anticipated. But that happens to authors all the time with fans and world building.
I don’t really think I can add to alcohol discussion given as I have no idea what % would be equivalent to what affect. I just figured like Gepeto that yellow would be very light in alcohol content because Adolin wouldn’t want it to affect his fighting. Do we know that the different wine colors are actually indicative of very different alcohol levels? Maybe the colors only really have to do with what the alcohol is made out of? Maybe it’s possible that orange and yellow might be almost the same in terms of alcohol content but different buy what they are made out of.
Going somewhat back to an earlier topic of Navani and her political acumen. I wonder if she would have caught the loophole that Adolin had for his duel with Relis if she had been there.I feel like she would have figured it out and made Adolin be more specific with his wording. But then again I don’t know if she knows the dueling conventions that well either…. Even if she isn’t a master at political games, just the fact that she’s had to deal with them for a large part of her adult and married life, she should be good at spotting those kind of loop holes, right?
Well, the reason the discussion morphed onto the achohol content of the various wines was to discuss whether or not Dalinar is too harsh with his sons while enforcing his prohibition. I tend to think so, others think not as Adolin is seen drinking. My counter-argument is whatever Adolin is drinking is not much nor enough for him to get anywhere near drunk or even “feeling”. Being a young man, he wants to fool around as all young men and he is prevented from doing so. Whereas young men should be allowed to fool around or not is another discussion, but I do feel there is a large world in between the dry road and the drunken one. Adolin’s desires are legitimade and understandable.
That being said, if Brandon indeed does not drink, then we may have caught a loop-hole. Adolin can’t seriously be taking any beverage with a serious content of alchohol right before dueling. You just can’t ramp up your cardio as high with alchohol in the blood or if you do, you may end up puking, even if the content is small. However, it could also be he’s foolish enough to risk it, stuck in the arrogance of youth that he is.
As for Navani, it was my understanding the plan has been agreed by everyone. Surely the words were recorded. Dalinar thinks how they were outplayed, so it is quite possible they all missed it in their excitement over this forthcoming ploy. However, I am slightly troubled at Dalinar agreeing to Adolin fighting two duels, back to back, one against two and one against Sadeas who is said to be an expert swordsman. Nobody’s worried he may run out of juice? And the 4 on 1 duel, nobody had second thoughts at seeing Adolin get into another fight after such a gruesome one? Had he enough stamina to win it?
@104
A while back–maybe in the WoK reread–we pieced together a qualitative wine-strength scale from various textural snippets and maybe even with some WoB thrown in for good measure. I don’t have a link handy, although I did poke around a bit trying to find it again. Anyway, the order of alcohol content was determined to follow the spectrum thusly: violet (strongest) > blue > green > yellow > orange > red. Red wine, IIRC, is virtually, if not completely, alcohol-free. That’s the only quantified point we have on the scale.
Braid_Tug (thanks for the nod, BTW) is thinking violet = 40-50% (really stiff stuff)
I pegged it at 20%
and Gepeto suggested 12% (I think to make his scale accommodate a very weak yellow wine that Adolin could sample before dueling)
Bottom line: who knows?
ETA
Gepeto @105
Brandon does not drink alcohol due to his religious beliefs, unless he’s hiding in the Storm Cellar doing it. That should also apply to several other members of Team Sanderson.
@105
I think Adolin was suppose to specify another time to fight Sadeas, not necessarily fight him directly after duel. It had to be soon enough to the due that the victory of it would be fresh in peoples mind but with enough time for Adolin to recover. So if Adolin had done a two on one fight, he could have challenged Sadeas to a fight for the next day and it still had the same effect the Kholin’s wanted as well as give Adolin time to be fresh for that fight. The problem came when Sadeas was allowed to answer the challenge freely and pick his own time to fight Adolin. Heck I’m a little surprised that Sadeas didn’t ask for that duel to take place later that afternoon so that it was a back to back fight, Sadeas might had a fair chance against an exhausted Adolin if he did that. Goes to show just how much Adolin winning the 4 on 1 fight rattled him.
Re: Wine – I’ve seen half a dozen scales for how strong the various wines are. Without WoB/WoP to specify Earth equivalents, we’re guessing – and the well-educated guesses vary a lot. (E.g. I’ve seen violet placed anywhere from 12% to 40%, depending on a plethora of reasons.)
My point is: Please don’t hold your theory so tightly that you can’t allow for other people to see it differently. It will only make everyone irritable.
@106: Well, yes I admit my scale it designed in order to make the yellow wine low in alcohol content as I cannot fathom Adolin would drink anything remotely strong before a duel… However, perhaps he is foolish enough or perhaps it is a loop hole. No matter the reason behind Brandon and his team not drinking, it may be one of these occasions where lack of experience shows in the writing if he intended yellow wine to be strong… You don’t need to drink in a lot of alcohol before you start to have effect in your physical training.
It may be interesting to share a bit of personal life to illustrate it. I have been known to have a nice relaxing glass of wine not too long before going to my evening training which consist mainly of running and jumping around. I have good cardio, so it is not the culprit. I have notice a serious difference in between my “performance” after having drank one very small glass and when I haven’t. I had absolutely no physical effect due to the alcohol as I drank a very small quantity, but it was still enough to impact me once I started to ramp up the cardio. The one time I had one plate of tortellini on top of one glass of wine, needless to say, I nearly finished the whole training holding my head over the nearby trash can….. Classy. Or would have been classy. I have no idea how high Adolin ramps up his cardio when he duels, but going above your threshold usually have for effect to create feelings of nausea and ill-ease. Alcohol, even a small quantity, would lower that threshold, so the unwary youth such as Adolin could end up in a situation where he is puffing and struggling (or worst) simply because he wanted to relax before. Imo my thoughts the yellow wine must be quite low in alcohol.
However I could be totally wrong, but my personal experience told me: alcohol right before high in cardio training = not a good idea if you want to achieve any performance at all.
@107: To avoid having Sadeas wiggle out of the duel, they all agreed Adolin would demand to duel him right now, to this day. It is the tactic used with Yenev. However, Kaladin screw it up by challenging Amaram which caused a commotion and Sadeas managed to twist the word by agreeing to duel Adolin, to this day, in a year of time. The precise moment of the duel was key. In any advent, Sadeas had not intention to duel Adolin, even he is most likely was tired from the previous fight.
Adolin also states how he has to beat two shardbearers while keeping enough strength to fight another duel right after. Considering he was pounded on repetitively and he considering he fought in a hard to move nearly locked out Plate for the most past, Adolin had to be tired. The only reason, I believe, he appeared energized after the fight was adrenaline. As soon as it starts to wear down, he would have felt the fatigue. The necessary time delay to allow him to put on another Plate and to allow Sadeas time to ready himself, he would have likely wined down quite hard. Going back to a energized state would have been more difficult. It was a dangerous plan. I wonder why the Kholins even allowed Adolin to risk himself in such way.
Gepeto,
there are a few problems to your argument:
Firstly, you’re comparing running to fighting, but alcohol provides a distinct advantage in the latter that is irrelevant in the former – a higher pain tolerance. Drinking alcohol before fighting was a common practice in earlier times, especially to take away the fear of getting hurt. Fighting also doesn’t strain the body in the same way running does, so the bodily reactions are quite different.
Secondly, 5% alcohol is not necessarily considered a large amount – plenty of Europeans would consider that barely noticeable (and there are very delicious beverages with a content of ca. 60%, cask-strength whisky for example). Familiarity with alcoholic beverages plays a pretty large role in the reactions to it, as well.
Sorry I did not mean to create another polemic. Storm, I have a knack for it, every single subject. I just found the concept of drinking alcohol before exercise strange and counter-productive. Adolin is not fighting, he is fencing… It seemed more akin to running/jumping than war time. Also, he is not coming even close to being hurt in those duels, even the 4 on 1 one.
I used this argument to justify the alcoholic content of yellow wine must be low as I cannot fathom he would drink right before dueling. However, I have also said he may be foolish enough to do it.
Imo, I am very familiar with wine, so in my case, that was not the problem.
I never said this was a false-proof argumentation, I merely think the yellow wine is low in alcohol based on the arguments I have brought forward. It is really an insignificant discussion as I sincerely do not care about being wrong about that one.
I wouldn’t/don’t consume any alcohol before doing anything physically strenuous, but that’s just me. Adding in a helping of pasta (Gepeto, heh), oooh, double trouble. And I’m certainly not against having one or two (whichever drinks) just about any evening. However, Torvald-Nom brings up an interesting point about consuming alcohol before heading off to fight for your life or duel. Yep, maybe it works under those circumstances.
Even though Brandon (et. al.) doesn’t consume alcohol, I wouldn’t expect him to flub the concept of Adolin having a drink before dueling. He is usually thorough about researching topics he will write about if something is not clear to him. So, I’d personally come down on the side of it being intentional, as Torvald-Nom alluded (a “short one” to bolster him up or increase pain tolerance). [ETA–or to calm his nerves, as per Gepeto @113]
For the record, I do think Adolin should be able to cut loose once in a while. However, it wouldn’t go unnoticed, for better or worse.
@112: To my defense, these were absolutely delicious tortellini… Come to think of it, I may have had two servings…. Awful mix. I now settled to no alcohol on a week day and fish or chicken before training. Works a lot better.
In his POV, back in WoK, Adolin states a glass of yellow wine helps him relax before a duel… It does not seem as if he is drinking it to bolster him it, but to calm his nerves. Quite a different thing. It is interesting to know Adolin gets nervous even before lesser fights where there is not stakes at all. We tend to forget all of this little tip bits from WoK, especially when it comes to Adolin: he was easily forgettable in that book.
I understand the concept of warriors taking in strong alcohol to help the push through battle and injuries, that’s an interesting point, but Adolin is dueling in a safe environment. Is he even getting hurt when he received hits? He does state he feels how strong the blows are during the 4 on 1 duel, but do they actually hurt him? I have been wondering about that…
I agree Adolin should be allowed to blow of some steam every once in a while. For the record, I do think Dalinar is too hard with Adolin, but too lenient with Renarin. I also think Adolin needs to be given some lose while Renarin needs more structure.
I forgot that line about Adolin needing to keep enough energy to fight Sadeas afterwards. I hard to believe that the Kholin faction didn’t discuss when the fight with Sadeas was suppose to take place but that’s the only thing I can thing of that makes sense. It just doesn’t make sense for Dalinar to expect Adolin to do a two on one duel and then go right into another duel. Adolin, I can see being impulsive enough to think he could do it.
@kei_rin on 114 – I believe the Kholins did not think about it. And Shallan is also partly responsible for this. Remember, the duel 2-1 duel that turned into 4-1 was originally Shallan’s idea. Yes, Navani and Dalinar had the final say, but Shallan is ultimately responsible because it was her plan.
In fact, if we look back, Shallan was there when Adolin challenged Relis. Shallan should have picked up the loophole. She knows about duels. In her flashbacks, she had watched duels as a child.
That said, we should also take into consideration that everyone is pressed for time and there is a shortage of manpower. The Kholins are taking the countdown seriously. Shallan was clerking for Serbarial, doing research for Uritheru and then dealing with the Ghost Bloods.
I believe most everything was an act of desperation for the Kholins though of course, no one knows it except themselves. There is also a chance that they don’t even know that they are desperate.
@114: They did discuss it. When Navani goes all motherly fretting about Adolin’s safety, he reminds her how Elhokar likes the plan. She snorted stating Elhokar can be unpredictable. The plan has been agreed on. They all knew about it and the plan was for Adolin to be so spectacular the king would be justified to give him a boon which would be to duel Sadeas to this day. This is exactly the ploy Sadeas used on Yenev several years back.
Dalinar certainly knew about it and was visibly all right with knowing his son would fight three Shardbearers in two back-to-back fight. Why he was not worried is beyond me as he was worried about a simple fight to only one broken piece of Plate back in WoK…
@115: Once the duel is agreed on, there is nothing Dalinar or Navani could have done. However, had they picked up on the loop hole, surely they would have prepared more Shardbearers, stuck in the room and ready to pitch in.
I do not think it was desperation, but the Kholins needed to deal with Sadeas and the only option they saw was to have Adolin duel him in a secure environment. They all believe he would win: he’s good enough for it. However, how they assume he could win two fights in rapid succession is another story though. Sure he shown some stamina at the Tower fight, but that’s an entirely different deal.
@115 and 116
There is a second possiblity–most real world dueling codes allow both parties to have a certain say in duels i.e. The challenged gets the right to choose weapons and the challenger names the time and place–within reason.
Based on Sadeas’s “A year from today” trick it is at least possible that Alethi codes allow the challenged party to choose the time and date since the weapons are already a known quantity. In that case Adolin might have been mentally preparing himself to fight Sadeas right after (since we both agree that Sadeas would never want a fair fight and probably never intended to enter the ring against Adolin at all) while there still existed the possibility that the man would name an alternate date–say if he felt tipsy or something.
If that was the case, it was still a desperate ploy as you say, but there would be at least a possibility that Adolin would have time to rest and repair his plate.
Another possibility is that Elhokar would have simply loaned him one of the sets of Plate nobles use in duels when they don’t have their own. If Sadeas had accepted the duel right then and there, he would still need time to go get his own plate after all.
RE Shallan, she does scold herself later on for not catching the loop hole, and reminds herself it’s her duty as Adolin’s betrothed ( and later wife) to catch things like that. I don’t remember if she ever apologized to Adolin about it though.
In other news I was looking on Sanderson’s website and he confirmed that on his tour next month he will be doing readings from SA3!
New post today!
Just wanted to say – interesting discussions, but we are *all* doing a LOT of reading into the text. For what it’s worth, for example, I love Navani and think she’s awesome. I don’t have any questions about her love for her children and family, nor do I agree with characterizations of her as ‘flippant’ or ‘desperate.’ YMMV.
Another point about Elhokar that I noticed in my reread of WoK this week – when Taravangian asks Jasnah if being an atheist is hard b/c she has nothing to believe in, she replies that she does have things she believes in – her brother, her uncle, herself, the things she was taught by her parents. I think that says a lot about her feelings for her family in general – and it’s certainly interesting that she includes Elhokar in the list of things she believes in.
Re: alcohol, I don’t drink either. But I don’t think Dalinar enforcing the Codes on his officers and sons is a problem – Adolin, especially, is going to be in charge if anything happens to Dalinar, and he needs to be ready at any moment. Dalinar didn’t interfere with Adolin’s wildly unstable dating life, despite the political ramifications of him dating and breaking up with every light-eyed woman on the Shattered Plains. So it’s not that he’s interested in preventing his sons from ‘having fun’ or ‘blowing off steam’. He’s interested in them a) not being incapacitated, and b) setting an example. The whole point is that the Code forbids drunkeness *during a time of war*. Dalinar’s trying to get the Alethi to a) act nobly and b) remember they’re at war, and stop treating things as a game.
@117
That makes more sense to me! It just didn’t make sense to plan to fight Saedes right after a 4 on 1, or even a 2 on 1 duel. Granted Alethi sometimes don’t think when it comes to fighting. Re-reading the passage right before the fight it really does sound like Adolin, Renanrin and Elhokar all are sure Adolin and Sadeas will be fighting right after the duel. I don’t see anything that says that Dalinar and Navani explicitly think the same but it could be inferred very easily. Dalinar and Navani were there for the planning it’s unlikely they wouldn’t have discussed it in detail before the fight. It makes more sense to assume that Sadeas would want to take advantage of exhausted Adolin in a battle right after a hard duel then wait, so that would be what they plan for. Just in case Adolin doesn’t get a chance to properly box in Seadas to a latter date it’s better to fight him sooner, seems to be how the Kholin’s view it.
@115: I’m a baseball fan and have been watching games since I was 10. (Now 26 years.) I do not know all the rules. Especially the rarely used ones.
Expecting Shallan to pick up on the wiggle room Adolin provided, because she had to watch the duels as a child is expecting much of her. Her perfect memory is for images, not everything she reads. Even with her current refresh of the rules, the language used didn’t register.
How often do we hear that a 2-on-1 duel is rare? This is probably the first 4-on-1 duel in living memory.
Did the judge and Relis pick up on it? Yes. She even tried to question him. But Team Kholin assumed they granted a challenge for a 2-on-1 battle and didn’t double check themselves. Hindsight. sigh…
The “Oh S&*t!!!” moment was rather a great one.
Edit: Stupid head cold. Upon review, this could sound aggressive. But I’m not meaning to, nor insulting. So I hope no one took it to be.
Actually no. The entire plan was to duel Sadeas, right now. To take him by surprise and to avoid having him wiggle out of it, as he still managed to due to the commotion Kaladin caused. It is why the duel was “to this day”, but before Adolin had the time to be precise, Kaladin spoke up, ruined everything and allowed Sadeas room to twist the wording from “to this day” to “to this day in a year’s time”. All parties agreed it would be meaningless. Sadeas had been afraid he would have had to duel the man who just defeated 4 Shardbearers…
It has been heavily implied all concerned individuals were very well aware of the plan. Adolin was to fight two duels back-to-back. They all thought he could pull it of (he’s young, he’s strong, he’s got endurance), though it seemed risky to me. However, they all expected him to fight 2 Shardbearers, not 4.
As for alcohol, I do not know why people think letting Adolin losen up once in a while implies drunkness…… You can easily have three glass of wine in an evening (and even a few more depending on how long the evening is) without being drunk at all. Adolin is prevented to do even this. I never implied Adolin should enter a drinking contest and end up passed out drunk in a corner (Dalinar drank a LOT more than 3 glasses at Galivar’s feast to be passed out as he was…), but simply I feel he should be allowed some slack once in a while, providing he remains reasonable. Right now, he is basically being told: “I don’t trust you can be reasonable, so don’t drink. You can have one glass of low alcohol wine, just to taste, then juice.”. He should be allowed a few evenings where he is off duty and has more freedom. Back in WoK, he asks his father: “Can’t he, just this once be allowed a few more drinks?”. It was not a special feast: they are all the same. He is not allowed to make choices for himself and when it comes to alcohol, choices are not dry road or drunkness: there’s a country between those.
@122
I’m not disagreeing that had a plan to fight Sadeas right away. I’m also agreeing that’s it’s implied that everyone knew Adolin was going to challenge Sadeas right way. I’m just saying that it doesn’t make sense if they had bothered to think about it. Adolin’s going to be tired even after a 2 on 1 fight, you would think they would want their star shard bearer to be rested in a fight. Sadeas might be older and might not be considered as good of a Shardbearer as Adolin but there would be a higher risk of him winning when he’s fresh and Adolin is tired than if both are fresh and ready for the fight.
chaplainchris @119 – Hear! Hear! In other words, I agree with everything you said. (Well, except the bit about not drinking alcohol, because I do. :D )
Let me cite some relevant sections from The Way of Kings; bold emphases are mine:
And IIRC, that’s the last time we see Adolin grumbling about following the Codes. He already knew it wasn’t about Dalinar being a controlling father; the orders came from his commanding officer, not his daddy. Certainly Dalinar held his sons to (nearly) the same exacting standard as himself, but it only appears to be a parenting issue because sons are the only ones who might have leeway to argue about it; everyone else just had to obey orders.
Notice, also, that until Adolin joined his father at the war, the restrictions were not in place. Back home, he could play fashion model and duelist to his heart’s content – but out here on the Shattered Plains, in a war zone, he was required to conduct himself as an officer of the Kholin army for the sake of the men in that army.
And… that’s all I’ll say on the subject. The new post should be up by now.