Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan came to a sobering realization about the gentle disposition of the Ghostbloods and her preparedness to interact with the organization. This week, things lighten up as her next date with Adolin goes unexpected places, and meets unexpected people.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 55: The Rules of the Game
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: The Warcamps & Outer Market
Symbology: Spears, Joker, Shalash
IN WHICH Kaladin sets himself to accompany Adolin and Shallan on their date, to Adolin’s exasperation; the carriage driver is—“You!” and Kaladin joins him cautiously; Wit and Kaladin trade smart remarks, in an exchange which Kaladin clearly loses; Wit drops a hint that he knows about Kaladin’s Surgebinding; as they arrive to pick up Shallan, Adolin discovers that the carriage driver is—“You!” and is suspicious; Shallan emerges and realizes that the extra man standing there is—“You!” and hugs him; Kaladin rides in the carriage with Adolin and Shallan, with a running internal monologue about the superficiality of lighteyes; Shallan gives Adolin the details of the dueling scheme she’s developed; it becomes clear that it might well work, but only because it’s such a lighteyed sort of game; they visit a menagerie in the Outer Market, where Shallan is fascinated, Adolin puzzled, and Kaladin bored; Kaladin admits to Syl that he’s almost ready; Dalinar arrives, and makes an announcement that sets Kaladin back to zero.
Quote of the Week
“It’s just a duel,” Kaladin said. “A game.”
“This would be different,” Adolin said.
“I don’t see why. Sure, you might win his Shards, but his title and authority would be the same.”
“It’s about perception,” Shallan said. “Sadeas has formed a coalition against the king. That implies he is stronger than the king. Losing to the king’s champion would deflate that.”
“But it’s all just games,” Kaladin said.
“Yes,” Adolin said— Kaladin hadn’t expected him to agree. “But it’s a game that Sadeas is playing. They are rules he’s accepted.”
Commentary
The chapter starts out on a rather sour note. Kaladin has decided to take Teft’s questions about Shallan seriously, and given the possibility that she could be an assassin, he’ll do the guarding himself. He is, however, extremely grumpy, and seems determined to take out his acid mood on Adolin. Lovely way to start a date.
Of course, everything goes a bit wonky when the carriage driver shows up. Heh.
This line really jumped out at me this time around: “Something just felt off about this Shallan Davar.” Adolin keeps saying exactly the same thing about Kaladin… which may well be one of the best reasons to suspect that he will become a KR of some description.
The central discussion, of course, is the scheme to get Sadeas into the dueling arena. Interestingly enough, when Shallan brings up the subject of the duel, Adolin assures her that it’s okay to talk about it in front of Kaladin; since he’s saved Adolin’s life twice and attends all the secret meetings, there’s no point in being coy. It’s also crystal clear that at this point, Adolin is expecting a two-on-one duel. He fully expects to win it, too.
It’s delicious (and deliberate) irony that the plan is actually a direct copy of something Sadeas did many years ago, but that it’s not something he can see coming, because the only set-up it needs is a spectacular win. It’s good to note that, although Shallan and Adolin fully believe it can work, and even convince Kaladin of the same, Shallan still insists that Navani and Dalinar need to examine the idea and approve it. As we’ll see later, they will do so—and neither of them caught the loophole in Adolin’s challenge either. But we’ll talk about that next week.
You know the worst part of this chapter? Things are starting to get better: Kaladin concludes that Shallan isn’t an assassin, the three of them almost behave like human beings to one another, Shallan has a great time sketching the menagerie, and Kaladin cheers up by thinking about flying. So much so, in fact, that he’s just about ready to (I think this is what they meant) tell Dalinar about becoming a Windrunner. Things are right on the brink of a big step up… and then at the very end of the chapter, Dalinar and Amaram show up and make an announcement that destroys it all.
Amaram, the wretch, doesn’t have a clue what the ancient oaths actually mean. Or if he does, he doesn’t care if he’s forsworn on the spot.
Stormwatch
This chapter takes place the day after the Elit duel and Shallan’s meeting with the Ghostbloods.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Quite the assortment of critters in today’s line-up!
Sarpenthyn—“little more than a lump of flesh with two bulbous eyes and four long tentacles.” Kaladin and Adolin both think it’s about the ugliest thing ever, but Shallan is wide-eyed and thrilled. She reaches in and grabs one of the tentacles to see if it’s warm or cold, and starts sketching, disgusted at the lack of scholarship when the identification plaque calls it “Devil rock captured in Marabethia. The locals claim it is the reborn vengeful spirit of a child who was murdered.”
Skyeels—Not a lot of information here, but we have all the sketches from TWoK for them.
“Some kind of chull-thing”—A rather uninformative grunt from Kaladin, who thinks it should be perfectly happy in its cage, where it’s at least safe from predators. Syl feels sorry for it.
The Colorful Chicken—presumably a parrot, it has “red, blue, and green feathers. She dug out colored pencils to do that sketch. Apparently, she’d missed a chance at sketching one of these a long time ago.” Nice little shout-out to the “Middlefest” flashback, the same day as the talk which earned Wit that enthusiastic and unexpected hug.
Whitespine—This one is the most interesting, all around. “The square face showed sharpened mandibles— like teeth, only somehow more vicious— and a pair of long, toothlike tusks that pointed down from the upper jaw. The stark spikes running from the head along the sinuous back, along with powerful legs, were clues as to what this beast was.” This particular specimen seems too small and apathetic to justify the stories, but both Kaladin and Adolin have seen what they can do to a human body, when in the wild. Shallan comments that “They don’t do well in captivity. This one probably would have gone dormant in crystal long ago, if it had been allowed. They must keep dousing it to wash away the shell.”
Someone who is more of a biologist than I am should talk about this. Just the concept sounds cool to me: something that goes dormant in crystal when it can’t move enough, but can be kept from doing so by dumping water on it.
And just because I can, I shall add another beast to this list:
Amaram—parading around in a bright yellow-gold cloak with the double eye of the Knights Radiant emblem in black on the back.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
“You!”
Yep, Hoid is back in town, as annoying as ever. I found it highly amusing that for all the arguments about Kaladin being a better match for Shallan than Adolin because he’s more witty, he could barely figure out what Wit was saying half the time. Not that this stops Kaladin from sourly thinking that Adolin isn’t very good at cracking jokes to amuse his betrothed; humility is not one of Kaladin’s strong suits.
Hoid is just as fun as ever, or more so, but you have to go read the conversations to get the enjoyment. There’s no way I can adequately summarize it here! (Seriously, go read it again. Hoot.) However, there are a few details brought up in his exchanges that I want to highlight.
IIRC, we’ve had some other hints that Wit’s flute—which Kaladin forgot about when they left Sadeas’s bridge barracks—is perhaps more than an ordinary flute. Certainly, we have a WoB that Sadeas had it, and that Wit really wants it back. Where it is now… well, it could be in Urithiru, or it could be at the warcamps if it got left behind with unimportant stuff.
Wit drops a hint—and scares the living daylights out of Kaladin—that he knows about Kaladin’s Surgebinding. “I wouldn’t want you to go flying off on me.” Kaladin picks up the hint, obviously, but can’t figure out what to do with it. After a bit of verbal sparring, he asks what Wit wants of him; the answer sets up a scene several chapters downstream, where Kaladin tells him a story…
There’s also this lovely little tidbit:
“I’m a soldier, not a musician,” Kaladin said. “Besides, music is for women.”
“All people are musicians,” Wit countered. “The question is whether or not they share their songs. As for music being feminine, it’s interesting that the woman who wrote that treatise—the one you all practically worship in Alethkar—decided that all of the feminine tasks involve sitting around having fun while all the masculine ones involve finding someone to stick a spear in you. Telling, eh?”
First, I love the observation that “All people are musicians; the question is whether or not they share their songs.” That’s downright profound, it is. As for the tradition of men’s vs. women’s arts… while it’s possible that Wit is just yanking Kaladin’s chain for the fun of it, I think this is for real, at least within a range of interpretation. It’s at least a highly diverting interpretation, and quite possibly an insight into the past politics of Vorinism.
The second-best thing about this whole scene with Hoid is the way everyone looks at him and exclaims, “You!” Especially the first time you read it, it’s hilarious.
The first-best thing, though, is everyone’s reactions to Shallan’s reaction:
She suddenly started, eyes widening. She pointed at Wit with her freehand.
“You!” Shallan exclaimed.
“Yes, yes. People certainly are good at identifying me today. Perhaps I need to wear—”
Wit cut off as Shallan lunged at him. Kaladin dropped to the ground, reaching for his side knife, then hesitated as Shallan grabbed Wit in an embrace, her head against his chest, her eyes squeezed shut.
Kaladin took his hand off his knife, raising an eyebrow at Wit, who looked completely flabbergasted. He stood with his arms at his sides, as if he didn’t know what to do with them.
“I always wanted to say thank you,” Shallan whispered. “I never had a chance.”
Adolin cleared his throat. Finally, Shallan released Wit and looked at the prince.
“You hugged Wit,” Adolin said.
“Is that his name?” Shallan asked.
“One of them,” Wit said, apparently still unsettled. “There are too many to count, really. Granted, most of them are related to one form of curse or another. . . .”
“You hugged Wit,” Adolin said.
Shallan blushed. “Was that improper?”
“It’s not about propriety,” Adolin said. “It’s about common sense. Hugging him is like hugging a whitespine or, or a pile of nails or something. I mean it’s Wit. You’re not supposed to like him.”
I can never quite decide whether I think it’s funnier that Wit doesn’t know what to do, or that Adolin compares Shallan’s action to hugging a whitespine. Either way, that whole scene just delights me to the bottom of my socks.
Also:
“Hands off.”
“She’s far too young for me, child,” Wit said.
“That’s right,” Adolin said with a nod. “Stick to women your own age.”
Wit grinned. “Well, that might be a little harder. I think there’s only one of those around these parts, and she and I never did get along.”
Personally, I believe that to be an unmistakable reference to the holder of the Shard Cultivation.
Heraldic Symbolism
Another chapter where the Herald icons are fairly transparent: the Joker is always there when Wit plays a large role, and Shalash can variously be associated with Wit’s Lightweaving, Shallan’s Lightweaving, or Shallan herself.
Words of Radiants
The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
This is from the same page as the Chapter 54 epigraph, and sounds very much like it could be the following sentence. I could be wrong, of course, but I take this to mean that the unique ability of the Skybreakers is the capacity to accurately determine guilt and innocence.
Shipping Wars
Okay, I laughed all the way through this chapter, with Shallan and Adolin all flirty and Kaladin all sour and cranky. I seem to remember thinking on my first read that Shallan was trying too hard again, and I kept expecting it to rebound on her. Luckily, subjects of real interest turn up before it gets too nauseating.
I don’t know if I thought this the first time through or not, but even worse than Shallan’s overplaying her role, Kaladin was being an absolute toad. Inwardly or outwardly, his antipathy toward lighteyes was way more annoying than Shallan’s somewhat obvious flirting. He’s so bad that not only does Syl accuse him of being so sour she can practically taste it, he even has to admit to himself that he
“wasn’t giving those two enough credit. They might ignore him, but they weren’t actively mean to him. They were happy and pleasant. Why did that annoy him so?”
I’m clearly starting to get paranoid and read too much into things these days, because that phrasing—“Why did that annoy him so?”—seems to carry hints. Hints of what, I don’t know for sure. Self-awareness? Attraction? Interference by Odium-spren? I shall choose to settle on the idea that Kaladin is finally starting to recognize his own unfair prejudice against others merely because they are lighteyes. That interpretation at least has the benefit of leading up to his choices in the upcoming chapters and his change in attitude toward Adolin, if not lighteyes in general.
Just Sayin’
Favorite line of the whole chapter:
If she was some kind of con woman, she wasn’t after Adolin’s life. Just his dignity.
Too late, Kaladin thought, watching Adolin sit back with a stupid grin on his face. That’s dead and burned already.
Aside from the way this makes me giggle like a teenager, I did note the phrase “dead and burned” as opposed to our “dead and buried.” On Roshar, or at least in Alethkar, if you weren’t important enough to be Soulcast into stone when you died, your body would be burned, not buried.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when… when… when… Oh, my peeps, it’s coming. Next week: Whitespine Uncaged. The. Big. Duel.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She’s also part of the facebook group “Storm Cellar—Brandon Sanderson Fans” which y’all are welcome to join for more generalized conversation.
Alice, I also loved Wit’s reaction to Shallan hugging him. I think that may have been the only scene in SA where Hoid was flabbergasted. From what we know of him, it does not seem like he would be flabbergasted a lot.
Is their any textual support in any of the Cosmere books or WoB that a holder of a Shard has to be a human. Is it possible the holder of a Shard could be an animal or other non humanoid being? I am not trying to suggest that this is the case with the person who holds Cultivation. I wonder if a spren could hold a Shard.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
I have been enjoying the reread and thought I’d try participating in the comments a bit.
One thing that stuck out to me while reading was Shallan’s comment that Sadeas could appoint a champion to fight on his behalf. I’m wondering if Sadea’s wife will apoint a champion to fight Adolin since Sadeas won’t be around to do it himself?
Also Adolin and Shallan talk about the Right of Challenge as an ancient tradition possible instituted by the Heralds. Honor suggests appoint a champion and challenging Odium in one of his visions to Dalinar. I believe he says that their are certain rules that all shards must abide by. I wonder what other Ancient Traditions the shards are bound to?
I read Kaladin’s antipathy towards Adolin and Shallan similar to you Alice, It felt like he’s reasons for disliking were straw men that he kept proping up so that he could dislike them. I felt like he knew that if he just gave these people a chance he would like them so he’s determined not to give them a chance. Which is really annoying. I kept rolling my eyes at Kal and waiting until he no longer could lie to himself about people around him.
Also, I could just kill Amaram! Seriously man you ruin everything! Just go away and stand in a corner where you can’t mess things up anymore! This also saddened me because, like Kaladin, I took Amaram being given the golden cloak as a sign that Dalinar didn’t believe Kaladin. I still think that Dalinar didn’t believe Kaladin until Amaram didn’t go to aid his sons in the 4 on 1 battle. It’s hard to believe that Dalinar would have given Amaram the charge of the Knights Radiant if he didn’t believe that he would have upheld them. Refounding the KR meant too much to Dalinar.
@1
I don’t think that spren could hold a shard. From what I understand spren are pieces of a shards power. If a spren held a shard it would be like the shard just holds itself.
One thing of note in this chapter is that Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan all managed to miss something staring them in the face regarding Wit. Shallan only suggested going to the menagerie after they had set off, so how could he have arranged to swap places with someone in advance? We know (well, we can surmise) he use lightweaving to pretend to be the other driver but they should have noticed something was off in his story.
He plays the fool and people get fooled.
There’s no question that the only woman close to Hoid’s own age is Cultivation (or more accurately, its shardholder).
I love these rereads. They give me just about as much pleasure as re-reading the book again, just to see the sheer geekery that abounds!
This is another warm hearted chapter, at least until the end when Amaram shows up with a wet blanket.
I love the flirting between Adolin and Shallan, and of course Wit is hilarious though he is equally annoying too.
Can’t wait for the BIG 4-on-1 duel next chapter!!
@6. Metoo
Is it just me, or does Roshar seem to have fairly limited biodiversity? Everything (almost) seems to be based on the same model or having a shell. There are other ways that species could survive storms, like digging straight into rock and blocking the tunnel, or even flying/floating above the storm. Don’t get me wrong I LOVE the world building here, it just seems that most things, even the plants, are all based on the same model. I wonder if that shows a lack of creativity on the part of Honor and/or Cultivation.
I recently found my “first reaction notes” on my phone to WoR.
There’s a reaction to the last line. Can’t remember now if it was a typo, or me just trying not to curse. But it works.
Upon reflection, this was a super sweet fun chapter, until that last reveal. Having just listened to the Writing Excesses cast on plot twist… Brandon you evil genius.
I mean, how many of you expected a confrontation between Kaladin & Amaram after the chapter break? But we didn’t get it! Instead we get a great fight and fall out.
But what drives me nuts – so again, Brandon you evil genius – the non commutation between Dalinar and Kaladin!
Agh!! Headdesk!!!
Dalinar, buddy, could you not take 5 minutes to pull the head of your personal body guard to the side to say: Son, I understand the serious nature of the charges you brought against Amaram. After looking into it, I found no one that supports your side.
Really Dalinar? you couldn’t spare him 5 minutes? WoT crossed wire non-commutation all over again.
I read the Line from words of Radiance to mean making as in creating.
“The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals.”
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
(emphasis mine)
We know there were actual fabrials in use in the shadow days, and the fact that Nalan used a healing fabrial in the big reveal at the end makes me think that the skybreakers as well as being judges were ones that made the fabrials of the old days. We also know that sky-breakers are judges essentially and that fabrials involve trapping spren in gemstones for the required effect, perhaps the ability to judge when and how to trap spren made this practice acceptable rather than the other orders.
Just my thoughts!
Hoid must be a lonely man.
On my initial read of this chapter, the thing that killed me was Shallan’s glomp and Wit/Hoid’s reaction. The thing I noticed on further re-reads is Kaladin treating Shallan’s “lunge” as a physical attack and starting to react against it – something we see again when they go on their little scouting trip on the plains and Shallan spots moss and rocks. Delicious.
Agree with others about Kaladin’s view of Lighteyes. This chapter should make it abundantly clear that his view of them is unreliable.
Shallan’s original encounter with Wit/Hoid was very brief and quite some time ago. Yet, Shallan remembered it very clearly and was very grateful. It’s not like he did much for her either. The reasonable assumption is that Shallan remembers this as one of the very few occasions when she got any outside help of any kind.
Shallan’s plan to undermine Sadeas is interesting on a number of levels. Though it does have a flaw (more with the exact terminology Adolin used that she failed to spot) she is applying Jasnah’s lessons here about using history to inform future actions. I’m sure Jasnah would have spotted the flaw but even still I think she would give Shallan high marks. The plan came awfully close to undermining Sadeas politically more than everything else in the series put together. I wonder what Dalainar really thought about the plan? To top it all, to Shallan it’s just a minor side-project to help and impress Adolin!
#1 @AndrewHB, #3 @kei_rin:
I’m not sure I agree on why a spren couldn’t hold a shard. Not all humanity predates shards. Someone a few chapters back referred to “the local variant” of humanity (or something to that effect). Humanity on Scadrial was created by Preservation and Ruin working together. If created humans can hold shards, can created spren? Of course spren are more of the Cognative Realm so that might be why they couldn’t. Interesting to ponder.
Hi Alice and fellow Radiance readers!
First time commenter but I’ve been following the Read for a while now and really enjoying it. The more I get into Brandon’s world esp Roshar the more I like it but its been esp nice to follow the Read and do my own rereading after having caught up with the rest of the Cosmere books and WofB. The story behind the story brings it to a whole other level for me – Im a sucker for prequel characters and backstory like I was for LTT and the Age of Legends in the Wheel of Time, so one of my favourite things is learning any tip bits about Hoid and the Shards (new band name – Rayse/Odium can be the grumpy band member who left and broke it all up – there’s always one!) One of the main things I love about Brandon is that he weaves these things in so deftly both in terms of foreshadowing and into the worldbuilding and magic systems which are his fortes. Listening to Writing Excuses has really helped me with my own writing development, but it also gives insights into his own process as an above commenter mentioned.
On to this post –
‘And just because I can, I shall add another beast to this list:
Amaram—parading around in a bright yellow-gold cloak with the double eye of the Knights Radiant emblem in black on the back.’
Hilarious and I’m totally with you. Everytime Amaram comes on I’m mentally saying “Oh, this guy! “I think Brandon did a nice job in not making him eeeevil but its his self righteousness that make it even worse. At least a bad guy would be honest but Amaram actually believes his own brand of smug nonsense – yuck!
Kaladin’s sour commentary is the best esp when even he has to acknowledge he’s taking it a bit too far. And the quote about Adolin’s stupid grin is again hilarious. I do love the hate at first sight then grow to be best buddies trope that Kal has going on with Adolin and in a more romantic sense with Shallan later. Dare I say it I don’t mind love triangles if done well and not overused so if the writing heads this way I’ll be ok with it. Or not, either is fine.
But it seems Hoid’s the ‘man’ the guys need to watch out for though… This is one of the best parts of the chapter for me esp now having an inkling of what Hoid is. He is always so cocky – like the semi divine version of Mat Cauthon in a way (terrifying) – so its nice to see him completely shocked as you pointed out. Poor guy seems like he could do with a hug if he is caught in this thousands of years battle with Odium and the other shard who I can’t remember the name of presently, oh and also having to run from the 17th Shard and all the people he’s annoyed in the mean time. Which with that little aside also seems to include Cultivation…I wonder why that is? Did he do something that aggravated Honor’s conflict with Odium? For some reason I get the feeling its that he got there too late or couldn’t help or maybe he tricked Tanavast’s ‘Honourable’ nature into fighting Odium which led to his demise? What does everyone else think? Im so curious to find out what the situation was back then, did Cultivation have to work with Odium because of the Shard’s nature despite her preference for Honour? I know Odium is supposed to have come to the Roshar system later than our 2 Shardic lovebirds (crashing the party as always, Odium) but because of the way Shards affect each other did Cultivation and Odium create something too?
Anyways off topic (and please let me know if im straying into spoiler territory, sorry just a newbie here.)
I also love that Shallan is her most endearing when she is at her most authentic aka as the passionate and slightly geeky artist/scholar. As an artist/writer I totally get that absorption even if its funny from the outside.
Final note – I really like the way you’ve structured the posts with the different headings.
@starsapphire — Welcome! Glad you could join the discussion.
Starsaphire @15 – Welcome to the ranks of the commenters! I’m not convinced that Hoid necessarily annoyed Cultivation as Cultivation, so to speak. Keep in mind that he knew the Shardholders before they actually took up the Shards. It’s entirely possible the two of them just didn’t like each other even back then – Hoid’s comment that “she and I never did get along” (emphasis mine) implies such, to my reading. Not something I’d dead set on or anything, so I’m willing to be proven wrong, but just my two cents’ worth.
Also, in general: this chapter is hilarious – You!, cosmere in-jokes, banter. Good times. And then Amaram. I get that Dalinar didn’t want to accuse his old friend when there wasn’t any evidence, but elevating the man to a position of trust/authority/respect when someone you literally trust with your life has told you that he’s scum seems like a poor choice to me.
OMG! This is one of my favorite chapters in the book. I see it as a continuation of the bromance between Kaladin and Adolin, another stage in the romance between Adolin and Shallan and the budding love triangle between Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin.
And with Hoid around, we see so many revelations.
I have so many things to say but I will just expound on the love triangle. Kaladin really has a blind spot when it comes to Shallan ever since they met at the Unclaimed Hills and the boot incident.
I believe there was an attraction from the very beginning but Kaladin really has a hard time when it comes to women. First, there was Laral, his childhood “sweetheart” for lack of a better word. She’s lighteyed but during those days, Kaladin has no prejudice against them. In fact, there was mutual attraction between Laral and Kaladin as puppy love goes.
But Kaladin never knew that what he felt for Laral was puppy love. He was forced to join the military.
there was Tarah but we don’t know much about her except her name. And then there was Shallan.
That Kaladin felt down and grumpy with Adolin and Shallan courting is a sign (at least to me) of Kaladin’s growing attraction to Shallan
This chapter just served to remind me how much I love part 3.
As for commentaries, unlike last week where I had nothing significant to add, I have plenty to say about this one.
First of, the introduction to the chapter where as we witnessed Adolin trying, once again, to crack a joke at Kaladin’s expense and pathetically falling as his attempt is not only not funny, but also served as reminder to Kaladin of his past hardships. Nothing to put him into our favorite grumpy bridgeboy’s good grace. This being said, I love Adolin’s silent reaction to Kaladin’s response, “Scars”. Had he just noticed the man standing in front of him has been through hell back and from? Another one of those moments where I wished we had more Adolin’s POV as I yearned to figure out what he was thinking back then.
Second of, the date itself. We all understand Kaladin was acting as a guard. We all understand he did worry Shallan may be a risk hasard for Adolin. This is understood, but did Kaladin understand how unbelievably annoying he is? He is the third wheel in a date. The unwanted one, worst he persisted into interrupting their intimacy. Did he realize how incredibly nice Adolin was to include him within any discussion at all? He was on a date, he is stuck with a grumpy guard he does not trust who keeps on speaking up and yet, he manages to behave nicely to him, to treat him with respect, to hear his thoughts… How many young men would have done the same in similar circumstances? Not many I’d wager so it irks me to no end Kaladin is unable to give Adolin any credit here.
Third of, the menagerie. Loved it. Between Shallan’s curiosity, Adolin’s mild interest and Kaladin’s boredom, it was all in all a very pleasant read. This chapter also served me to highlight how unsuited Kaladin and Shallan would be were they dating each other. Adolin may not have been initially enthralled in going to the menagerie, but he was a good sport and did display some level of curiosity into the animals they met. Kaladin was just bored…
Forth of, hunting. Now, I may be the only one who noted this particular passage, but I am a sucker for everything pertaining Adolin, especially hunting. The very first time we meet him, he openly displayed his dislike for hunting calling it boring, dishonorable and tedious much to Dalinar’s complete dismay. He got lecture for it and made it clear in his POV, this was not the first time. Here, Shallan tried to sway Adolin to agree to the menegarie date by stating he’ll get the chance to brag about the creatures he bravely killed. Poor Shallan. You don’t know him all that well yet, now do you? Adolin’s response is telling: he does not dislike hunting, he despises it. Stronger words are used here. This may not be relevant to the main story arc, but it is an interesting character trait for Adolin: the fact he hates killing for the sake of killing in a mismatched fight. The animal does not stand a chance. The hunt is pointless, barbarous and a butchery. Please note he also uses word “butchery” to describe his fighting at the end. What does it tells me? The obvious: Adolin, unlike Dalinar and Kaladin, is not a soldier at heart, but a duelist. He is not found of the killing and I worry for him now he lost the protection from the Thrill.
For fifth, Hoid. Alright. I am going to clash with the majority as I do have a strong dislike of Hoid. I find him obnoxious at best. I do know he is not supposed to be “out there” hunting for Radiants as Brandon did say so in a recent WoB, but he always seem to pop near either Shallan or Kaladin, trying to serve half comprehensible lessons. I was seriously unnerved by him blatantly saying to Kaladin to go flirt with Shallan, even though he did notice Adolin was growing fond of her. What kind of person encourages another one to go steal the woman another man is crushing on? I don’t care if he was merely trying to help Kaladin overcome his prejudice, it was dishonest, misguided and plain mean towards Adolin. Just because he is not a surgebinder does not mean you had to try to pluck in a third wheel within the only courtship he ever had that seems promising, especially considering the fact Adolin is pretty much the only person who laughs at Wit’s insults. There.
For sixth, Amaram. As per other commentators, I too was disturbed by seeing Dalinar named Amaram as a new Radiant. However, in retrospective, it is hardly surprising. Dalinar holds Amaram in high esteem and Kaladin’s accusations have bore no truth he could find. He interrogated 17 individuals and all told the same story. What more was he supposed to do? To his eyes, Kaladin’s words were nothing more than pettiness from a man having suffered too much at the hand of his superiors or a vengeance against actions he perceived as wrong. I believe the ordeal also highlights how highly Dalinar thinks of Kaladin to let such insubordination pass unchecked. That being said, Dalinar is of course wrong, but he can’t have known that now. Kaladin’s anger is entirely justified.
For seventh, the duel. Ah. Kaladin highlighted once again how little he comprehends the upper crust of the society. He just does not get how dueling Sadeas, taking away his Shards, publicly humiliating him may do wonders for the Kholins. I love the quote stating Dalinar and Navani still had to approve of the plan. It thus settles our discussions a few weeks back as to whether they were aware of it at all. They were. They approved. Everyone got bested.
For eighth, the whitespine. Am I the only one who wishes to see a Whitespine in action???
That’s all for now, it seems rather long. Hope you enjoyed.
@18sheiglagh: As I’ve reread Words of Radiance I’ve come to that conclusion as well – Kaladin was probably attracted pretty early on but refused to acknowledge it/couldn’t acknowledge it until later in part 4 where it’s kind of unavoidable for him. That’s why he first dismissed Shallan, and then later on when it was brought to his attention that she could be a threat he decided to follow up on that personally (which is very much the case although we know Adolin is safe because we can be sure she’s sincere). Kaladin just tries to push those feelings, as well as his growing friendship with Adolin, as far away from realization as he can. Or at least that’s the vibe I get on each subsequent reread of Words of Radiance.
@others, Kaladin the grump: I’ve always been of 3 minds for it here. The first is rather simple, it’s just amusing – Kaladin is a third wheel and it introduces a humorous component to the date. Second is how it’s annoying: for people looking forward to another Shallan/Adolin date I can see completely how Kaladin is an unnecessary third wheel, and he is grumpier than he should be. This, along with a couple sections in Part 4, actually start to bother me because it feels like Kaladin is being depreciated (particularly in favor of Shallan, but that’s more in Part 4). Kaladin is a grump, but it’s worse here. Part of it is his racism against lighteyes, and boy as a reader it’s hard to stomach that here when he’s with two of the best lighteyes we’ve seen. I think it’s a bit exaggerated, but it’s also a good balance for earlier scenes from The Way of Kings – Kaladin’s racism has its justification with some lighteyes, but it’s an irrational hatred so of course it’ll still be active when he’s with better ones which should be annoying (almost like generalizing people has both some merits but mostly problems).
Third, and this is what redeems it a bit for me: I think part of this is Kaladin realizing he might have a legitimate problem. Kaladin is a bit of a grump naturally I think, but especially in that scene where he realizes Shallan and Adolin are just happy, I think he was maybe coming to the realization that there’s something off about him, how he has a hard time being around happy people in a social context. Poor Kaladin, mental health just isn’t far enough along in Roshar for him to really know what’s going on though.
OK, now for the whitespine:
1) It’s maybe a bit too obvious to have put it in the chapter before the big duel, but the whitespine in captivity really captures both Adolin and Kaladin – I would say of the two Kaladin is closer to the whitespine because of how poorly he also responds to captivity, but it’s telling that the next chapter “Whitespine Uncaged” has both Adolin’s fiercest moment in the duel and ends with when Kaladin joins. For those hoping Adolin becomes a KR, it might be that they’re only truly like a whitespine uncaged when you’re a Radiant, as your Blade and Plate are a part of you as opposed to the dead spren Shardbearers use.
2) Biologically speaking, I only have a degree in biochemistry but that gives me a decent jumping off place to discuss the whitespine. Speaking in evolution terms the whitespine most likely just goes into a crystal during times of “famine” – when it can’t find something to hunt it goes in the crystal and arrests its metabolism and waits for the highstorm, where the water will break down the crystal and wake it up to hunt in the explosion of life that happens after highstorms (or maybe it hunts during highstorms because that’s when its prey are hunkered down to survive the storm, so it can more easily find them and prepare to pounce for when they recovered from having gotten through the storm). I’m guessing in evolutionary terms its similar to what some species of desert animals do where they basically hibernate until the rare rainstorm which is when they can get enough water.
We also saw in one of Li’l Kal’s flashbacks that a different animal, the lurg, did something similar: it would spin itself a cocoon that dissolved with water so it could emerge during highstorms to feed (probably on cremlings). Plenty of fauna on Roshar probably do something similar, maybe not necessarily cocoons, but they have some biological function activated by a significant amount of water falling on them – thus they can set certain life cycles by how the highstorms occur. The whitespine may just have retained a similar function even after becoming a major (possibly apex) predator, or they still have it as a means to helping them hunt or survive periods of deprivation.
As to why tossing water on them prevents it, it could just mess with how they biologically determine periods of inactivity (usually hunting might only be lean between highstorms or something, and thus throwing water on them prevents their body from thinking it’s a period of inactivity for them), or possibly whitespines just crystallize during inactivity anyways but the process itself is interrupted by water – maybe it involves them dehydrating portions of their skin to form the bonds that resemble crystallization, so by throwing water on it those bonds are broken down before they have time to build up.
@9Dantalion88: I think if biodiversity is limited it’s more because of the nature of the highstorms themselves – while it’s true that there are other ways around them, they’re a very violent weather patterns that occurs constantly enough that imo it makes sense most creatures have evolved to have shells because it’s the most reliable and easiest method to resist the ferocious storms. Furthermore, we’ve mostly only gotten to see what seems to be one Rosharan biome: we’ve seen a little of Shinovar, the Purelake, and the Reshi Isles, but mostly we’ve seen the areas that are very rocky because they’re subject to highstorms the most. So while it is a limited biodiversity I think it’s within an acceptable range because we’ve seen mostly only one biome, and that’s one that is subject to very severe conditions which most animals have the most convenient adaptation to.
@20: Minor point, I think the Whitespine refers to Adolin and not Kaladin. In the next chapter, as Adolin makes the decision to attack his opponents and makes a go for it: he states he is not a caged whitespine yet. He thus is an “uncaged whitespine”. He will fight back with all he’s got. They may have trapped him, but they have not caged him yet.
Wall-o-text warning, because y’all have come up with fine ideas today. :)
AndrewHB @1 – Re: Wit… I know, right? I mean, when is Hoid ever at a loss for words? :D Also re: Shardholders… I believe there have been some non-human ones from time to time, but I’d have to check. I’m betting someone else here already has the answer. (Need to check Mistborn, mostly.)
notsawerd @2 – Hi there! Welcome! Also… Huh. I never actually made the connection between the possibility that Sadeas could appoint a champion with Honor’s suggestion that Odium could appoint a champion. Nice… This will take some pondering! But it’s a fair bet that there are other traditions that, one way or another, could be traced back to the Shard, if one only knew the stories.
ChocolateRob @@.-@ – Ummm…. Ummm… I was going to answer that, and then realized that I couldn’t, after all. Every justification fell apart. Plus, Shallan did sound awfully eager… quite possibly more eager than her interest in natural history can justify. Huh. Sneaky. Well spotted.
mehndeke @6 – I know what you mean. Collective compound geekery FTW!
Starsaphire @15 – Welcome! Good to have you here. Also, you triggered something that’s been lying around in the back of my head… About Adolin and Kaladin. As a trope, the “hate-turns-to-best-friend” schtick can be annoying if not done well. What I love about this particular instance is that it really has to happen because of each man’s own character. For all that they can (both!) be flippant, arrogant, ego-centric, prejudiced and the like, each has a deeper sense of honor and honesty. When put in situations where the choices are to risk his own life or let Adolin die (the Tower, the Assassin, the upcoming duel) Kaladin just can’t walk away, because it would be wrong. Irritating as it is to acknowledge a debt to a bridgeman – and a cocky, insubordinate one at that – Adolin does acknowledge it because it’s right to do so; when that same cocky bridgeman-cum-guard gets in trouble for having the effrontery to expect an appropriate reward for his intervention, Adolin limelights the injustice and puts himself in prison because to ignore or accept Kaladin’s punishment would be wrong. And there, they begin to go from grudging admission to grudging respect to freely-offered respect… to friendship, however budding and tenuous it might be at that point.
TL:DR – this is one case where that particular trope is so deeply rooted in the nature of the characters that it not only works, it has to happen. I love it.
FenrirMoridin @20 – Re: Kaladin the grump, I’m pretty sure your observations are correct; there’s also the acknowledged fact that his mood is generally worse when it’s raining but not a highstorm, which is the case in this chapter. He’s noticed it, but hasn’t considered that something like barometric pressure can create an emotional low as well. “Grey skies and miserable weather made him wonder why he’d even bothered to get out of bed.”
Re: the whitespine & crystal… THANK YOU! You found the lurg, which was lurking (lurging?) around in the back of my mind but I couldn’t get hold of it. I knew I’d seen that thing about hosing a critter down to get rid of a shell or something! I feel so much better now. :D
@21: I think it’s both! Adolin is the first one we’re supposed to think of, and the one the text directly draws our attention to like in that part that is mentioned. But I think with what will follow in Part 4, Kaladin is definitely akin to the whitespine when it comes to how badly he manages being caged (admittedly we only see a glimpse of how Adolin handled it so he might have handled it badly as well, it seems like Adolin rolled with it better though). I wouldn’t even have considered Kaladin as also one until like the second or third reading I did of the book (so the first or second reread). YMMV.
Wetlandernw @22: You’re welcome! I was actually the same, and I had to go back to The Way of Kings to find its name again – I tried quick searches through the coppermind but couldn’t find it. Fortunately it’s not too hard to quickly scan through that book for Kaladin’s flashbacks – basically I just flipped through the first half and looked for when Kal showed up.
Ready for what? Alice thinks it might be for Kaladin to declare himself, but I strongly doubt that. Clearly, the thought in both their minds just before the question was Kaladin soaring on the winds … developing his Windrunner abilities. When I first read it, it seemed obvious to me that Syl thinks Kaladin is getting close to the next level on the Windrunner KR scale. On re-reading, I’m even more convinced that that is the right explanation.
Y’all have it covered well early-on this week, not much to add.
ChocolateRob @@.-@
That’s the one point I jotted down to bring up. Seems like a gaff. Good question for Peter or Brandon, they’d want to get it corrected if it is.
notsawerd @2
Welcome! That’s a nifty question about rules for shardholders. I wonder what they are and who made them.
Starsaphire @15
Welcome! You don’t have to worry about spoilers here. Coincidentally, a few days ago I was mentally comparing Hoid to Thom Merrilin. Both are excellent players of political machination. I’m not sure if Hoid wins, but he’s doing it on a galactic level, so that’s impressive.
Alisonwonderland @24
I agree.
Did any of you notice when Hoid used his knowing? In this chapter he set it up so that the some random person would replace him as the coach driver. He did this by having the person stand at a corner and when the coach turned they swapped places, but they hadn’t decided where they were going yet so how could Hold have known what corner the new driver would have to stand at? I think he used the same ability that later told him where to meet Jasnah.
My comment disappeared when I tried to post it and I was suddenly logged out. This isn’t the first time that happend.
If created humans can hold shards, can created spren?
It isn’t the same thing. Spren are a small part of a shard. Humans may have been changed by a shard, but they are not a part of a shard.
Shipping. Blaugh.
Even if I wasn’t an ace, I think I’d have given up on the concept by now. I mean honestly, if even Ms. Piggy and Kermit can’t make it, then Honor Love Is Dead and there’s no hope for anyone.
Oh well, I don’t have to like it. That part of the story isn’t for me.
That being said, being on the outside of romances looking in, I have developed an oddly good ability to read peoples’ relationship quirks.
Thinking about him as a real person (which he obviously isn’t but still), I don’t think what Kaladin feels towards Adolin and Shallan’s flirting is jealousy so much as it is a combination of low-light depression and the generally annoyance anyone who battles Seasonal Affective Disorder can easily get when they are around people in a genuinely good mood. I and several other members of my family also get it. Especially when it rains too much.
Whenever I get that way. I feel irrational surges of annoyance bordering on hatred that last no more than a minute or two whenever someone around me is too cheery. This happens regardless of what they’re being cheery about.
As soon as I figure out why, I can reign it in and it goes away (and I usually feel bad about it). That mirrors Kaladin’s little temper tantrum and self-realization a little too closely to be coincidence.
You guys can keep your shipping goggles on if you really want to, but take it from me, I wouldn’t use that particular little episode as my case clincher to the jury in the Court of Love.
EDIT To add: @@@@@ Alice
Do you consider that particular classification a part of the Animal Kingdom? Amaram seems like he should be listed as some sort of particularly nasty, infectious form of virus.
@28 wcarter: Here’s my take on it, and I don’t think it’s particularly shipping or anti-shipping – I think it’s important to consider whether Kaladin could feel attraction for Shallan already by this point in Words of Radiance when it comes to questioning his ultimate reliability when we’re in his head. I agree with you on why he acts so grumpy here, at least as the primary reason: we’ve seen too many examples of Kaladin having SAD (or the Rosharan equivalent that acts basically the same) to ignore the correlation between his extra grumpiness and the weather/light levels. It strikes me as reductive to consider that the only reason why, especially when they are indications other background emotions might also be at play. For an example, consider how weird it is that Kaladin shows up for this: Kaladin explains that had to be there because Shallan was potentially such a great threat that Adolin needed the best bodyguard effort if Shallan was an assassin…but it could only be Kaladin by himself because they’re short a bunch of people so it was easiest to save space by having just Kaladin there. The logic there seems sound enough, but on the other hand Kaladin arranged it so he ended up hanging out with 2 of the only people who are both roughly his age and not in a direct enough chain of command to him that he can see them as peers (even if he doesn’t actively recognize it). Kaladin states an entirely believable reason, but it’s interesting to wonder whether there are subconscious emotions at play here, especially considering later developments in Parts 4 and 5.
So while I think the main reason we have grump Kaladin this chapter is a biological one, I like to ponder at what emotional ones may have lurked beneath the surface and played a lesser role.
@21: Hmmmm I’ll admit you may be right, but I’ll also admit wanting the Whitespine to be about Adolin. It obviously is, but I do not wish for it to be shared with Kaladin. All in all, I am seriously guilty of wanting some part of the story to NOT be about Kaladin… I naively wanted the duel to be about Adolin and the fact it wasn’t will always be sore point. Admitebly the weakness emotional filled argument I ever came up with. You are probably right though.
As for Adolin handling being imprisoned better, it was not the same thing. Adolin could walk out any time he liked. He was there on his own. It does not even begin to compare with forced imprisonement where you think the world has forgotten about you. Let’s see how he deals with it when he is put there, for real and has to deal. I bet he won’t handle it so well then.
@28: Count me in with those who do not believe Kaladin’s grumpyness is linked to jealousy. I personally do not think Kaladin is harboring any particular feeling towards Shallan other than mere annoyance at this point in time and even later on, I still don’t believe he is that enthralled with her. I personally think his “attraction” is more linked to her ability to smile despite having hardships than true romantic interest. Kaladin, I believe, has come to think he had it the hardest, he was the victim and was thus entitled to be depressed, but when he meets Shallan, he realized having had difficult times does not give him the excuse to take it out on everyone. As for romantic feeling, knowing one’s past is not the same as sharing day to day moments, but I understand I am probably the only one who thinks this way.
I do agree the shipping google try to make us see items which are not. It struck to me Kaladin was moody because he could not stand being around happy people while he wasn’t. It was their good humor that got to him, not their union. All in all in found them nauseus, fawning one over the other, more than anything else. The shipping googles never called for Adolin/Shallan to be a ship, so it has to sink. The shipping googles also wish with the main male character to date the main female one and the second they had their first row, the shipping google made everyone see them as an item due to their mimicking of a very common trope.
I also agree being around irrevicably happy people can seriously get on your nerves when you are feeling depressed. For my part, I read nothing more than this.
@@@@@ 28 wcarter @@@@@ 29 FenrirMoridin @@@@@ 30 Gepeto – I’m a romantic. And yes, I’m probably one of those you can accuse of wearing shipping goggles.
We keep on noting Kaladin’s grumpiness and explain as part of his seasonal disorder. But we keep on forgetting that Kaladin is 20 years old. He never really had normal teen years even by Alethkar’s standards. He was already apart from his peer while still at home and knew that his parents and the old city lord had planned for him and Laral, a lightrye, to marry. And there was attraction between them.
then Laral’s father died and everything changed.
so, though Kaladin made friends while in Amaram’s army and in Bridge Four, there really was no one whom he can hang out in a social scenario except Adolin and Shallan who are both lighteye and light years away in social standing.
so yes, Kaladin feels grumpy because of his prejudices. He is annoyed with Adolin and Shallan for being very happy. Yet, strangely enough, he finds their conversation very interesting and in Kaladin’s point of view, challenging.
To go back. If we are going to continue on harping on Kaladin’s mental health, then we have to consider also that Kaladin is pre-disposed to like or even fall in love with a lighteye woman. He can thank Laral and his parents for that.
@31: I do not feel anyone is accusing anyone here. We are merely discussing over the fact some commentators are attributing Kaladin’s reactions to early attraction while some others think we should not read too much into it.
I disagree Kaladin was not allowed to live his teenage years. Except for the fact Tien died, Kaladin was relatively happy within Amaram’s army. He was fulfilling his childhood dream of becoming a soldier and he did engage into a relationship with a woman named Tarah. While we do not know much about her, we do know Kaladin was fond of her and he held her close, which tells us they shared some level of intimacy.
Also, Kaladin was not miserable while being a member of Amaram’s army. He was proud, he trained hard and did he best to protect his squad while dreaming to be send to the Shattered Plains. He still regarded Amaram in a positive light, refusing to blame him for Tien. Romantically wise, he was with a woman.
For all we know, his relationship with Tarah has lasted for years. For all we know, he has only been “single” since he was made a slave or shortly before which was a year ago. At that point in time, we can easily argue Kaladin has more experience with women than Adolin…
We all agree Kaladin has a thousand good reasons to be grumpy, unlikable, unpleasant, depressed, traumatized. However, I personally do not believe his current attitude is linked to “love at first sight” with Shallan. I do not believe he is attracted to her at that point in time (heck I am not even sure he is really attracted to her later on).
Kaladin pinning on Shallan in this chapter is very far-fetched and most of the arguments brought forward are in relation with the future chasm scene. He is angry at their happiness because he can’t be happy himself, not because he wish he was standing in Adolin’s place. He thought the date was stupid to begin with. Had he been Adolin, he would have likely grumbled all the way through.
It has nothing to do with being romantic or not. It has all to do with expectations. People expect Kaladin to become an item with Shallan. If you’d were to make a poll, the greater majority of SA fans think/want/hope/expect Kaladin and Shallan to end up together and because they think/want/hope/expect it, most fans tend to read too much into not much. That chapter is a good illustration of it.
However, for some reasons, I’m always the odd one out. Feel reassure more people probably share your thoughts.
“There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.”
“The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals.”
My preferred way of reading these Words of Radiants together (since it makes more grammatical sense if these sentences do in fact immediately follow) is to conclude that the Skybreakers’ “almost divine skill” is to make people argue with one another (creating debate), not for actually being able to divide the innocent from the guilty. It may not turn out to be the intended meaning, but I find it the more amusing interpretation.
Clarification – when I referred to FenrirMoridin’s observations @20 about Kaladin-the-grump, I specifically meant the scene is funny in it’s third-wheel-ness; it’s annoying to those who wanted the date to be all about Shallan & Adolin; Kaladin’s grumpiness showcases his racism; as Kaladin realizes that he’s being unfair to them, he begins to see that maybe he’s the one with a problem here. I personally don’t think he was attracted to her at this point. YMMV.
Alisonwonderland @24 – At first I, too, automatically thought Syl and Kaladin meant “ready for the next level” but the more I thought about it, the more that didn’t make sense. Maybe that’s because by now, I know that the next level involves “protecting even people he hates, so long as it is right.” Here, hanging out with Adolin & Shallan, I suppose you could make an argument for that… but Kaladin doesn’t know anything about the next level, so what in this scene would make him think he’s ready for it? It seems like perhaps Syl does know, and she’s the one that asks the question… but what in this scene that would make her think he’s ready to make the step to that third Ideal?
In the immediate context, Kaladin is talking specifically about Surgebinding, about soaring on the winds, holding and using Stormlight to do things he never knew were possible. He’s finally acknowledged that what he’s doing is what the Windrunners did, and that he really is becoming one. In order to openly develop and use his Windrunning, though, he has to be willing to tell Dalinar about it. He knows Dalinar wants to refound the Knights Radiant, and he knows now that he is what Dalinar is looking for. Which is why the last paragraph in this chapter is such a slam – just as Kaladin has decided he’s ready to present Dalinar with a real Knight-Radiant-in-training, Dalinar presents Kaladin’s most-hated enemy as the new (and entirely unqualified, as we know) head of the Knights Radiant.
Which is why I changed my mind.
(EDIT TO CLARIFY: It’s not so much specifically telling Dalinar, though that’s the primary component – I think he’s realizing that he’s ready to “go public” with this. After rereading several more times, I think it’s actually not 100% clear what Syl and Kaladin mean, or if they even mean the same thing, by being “almost ready” – but while they clearly mean some kind of next step, I honestly don’t think they mean “the next Ideal.” Kaladin doesn’t even know what it is, and if Syl does, this scene doesn’t indicate readiness on his part. IMO. )
Folly @26 – Hmm. Precognition? Could be; he does have some way of knowing where he needs to be (e.g. meeting Jasnah), so it could be that he knew where they’d be going by the same means. I think we just don’t know enough about Hoid yet!
wcarter @28 – Fair point; calling Amaram a beast might be considered an insult to the entire Animal kingdom. Perhaps Monera or Fungi would be a more appropriate place for him.
@several – I tend to shy away a bit from presuming that I know how Kaladin’s mind works wrt male-female relationships. Or at least, I try to avoid assuming that he, being male, would respond to things the same way that I, being female, would. At best, I try to make my interpretations based on what I know of normal male responses. (Having been married for 28 years, I have some insight…)
beladee @33 – LOL! I like that interpretation!
I think most of us lean toward the conclusion that it refers to determining guilt/innocence because the traditional Vorin role of Judge is associated with Nalan, the head of the Skybreakers. “Justice” seems more logically connected to determining guilt and innocence than to stirring up great debates. It would sure be funny if it was the other way! :)
@26
I thought that the new driver was Hoid. He was just in disguise. I think Hoid can change his appearance. As Wit he’s discribed as having black Alethi hair but when Rock describes back in the chapter where he tell how how Horneater’s oceans were made, he described as having white hair. Sigzil recognizes Hoid from this. So to me this means that along with just knowing things, like where he needs to be to meet up with someone he can also change his appearance.
@many Re:Kaladin
I don’t think Kaladin was attracted to Shallan until after the chasm hike but I do think that he was intrigued by her before then. She definitely pinged his senses. He knew she was lying about being a Horneater princess when they first met but didn’t have the ability to call her on anything and lost his boots to her. Then she shows up again is is tied to the family that he’s suppose to protect. He knows there is something off about her, the way Adolin knows that there is something off about Kal but in both cases it’s something that eventually the person acknowledges isn’t a threat. (Kal didn’t even seriously consider her a threat until Teft pointed out she could be one.)
Kaladin doesn’t really have reason to be as interested in Shallan as he is but the author shows that he is. So those of us inclined towards romance are going to read romantic intentions into Kaladin’s interest, which, until we get any canon against, is a valid reading of those intentions, IMO. It’s not the only way to read Kaladin’s interest in Shallan but it’s valid. Personally I would rather that Kaladin’s interest be a prelude to an epic bro-mance with Shallan, as opposed to an epic romance but that’s just me.
As for Kaladin and the mysterious Tarah. We have very little details to go on about his relationship with her. Things we do know is Tarah probably is the reason Kaladin didn’t burn himself out trying to only kill learn how to kill lighteyes back in Amaram’s army and that Kaladin thinks that he failed her. Form these two things I think that their relationship was probably mostly pushed forth by Tarah. She mostly likely was the one perusing him. Kaladin was focused on soldiering and needed to “coaxed” into what ever relationship he had. Clearly what ever relationship they had didn’t last and I think that Tarah was probably the one that who called it off. I think that Kaladin would have kept working at it and the fact that Tarah decided it couldn’t work was what he considers a failure. (But this conjecture.) That he wasn’t good enough for her in away is his failure to her. I also think that given that Tarah is never added list of things that was “stolen” from him by lighteyes, I feel like Kal would have added the death of that relationship to the list of things taken from him if he had still been in a relationship at the time he was branded. It had also been a long time since Kaladin had even thought of her, to me, is another thing saying that relationship didn’t last a long time during his time at Amaram’s army. He can too easily disconnect his time with Amaram’s army and his time with Tarah who probably was a camp follower. So Tarah and Kaladin were an item sometime after Tein’s death and sometime before he was slave. If Kaladin’s focus after he decides to lead the bridgemen is any indication I doubt he had many other relationships.
Sheiglagh, I would agree with you that Kaladin probably didn’t have an average Rosharn teenage-hood but that is mostly through his own choice. From what I get of Kaladin’s character, he’s much like how Navani describes Jashna. He’s already 30 it’s just taking him 30 years to catch up. (What I mean by this is that he has the attitude of an older person, not the wisdom that comes supposedly comes with age.) The way he’s described as a child he was a serious little boy who easily and willing took on responsibility. I’m not surprised that he stumbles when it comes to relationships. He was separated from his peers in Hearthstone and like Zahel says spearmen who show brains often get moved to higher positions, we don’t know how long Kal was squadleader out his four years with Amaram’s army but he probably moved up faster than those he started with. That probably means that he couldn’t have been close friends with many. Which explains why he tries to protect Moash so much. Friends are a rare thing to Kal.
@@@@@ Alice – your comments about Kaladin was not the reason why I thought that Kaladin was attracted to Shallan. It was a combination of things. It was not the first meeting at the Unclaimed Hills that made me think of it. It was their third meeting when Shallan was at the practice grounds and Teft pointed out to Kaladin that Shallan might be an assassin that made me think about it and look back in their previous encounters
There was chemistry between Kaladin and Shallan, and if this was a romance novel, the foregone conclusion is that they will end up with each other. But, this is not a romance novel. I said there is chemistry because of their second meeting when Shallan first arrived in the Shattered Plains and the two had a shouting match in front of all the guards. Then, there is the meeting at the practice grounds and one member of Bridge Four noticed that Kaladin was observing Shallan. And of course, there was Adolin telling Kaladin not to watch Shallan’s backside. And finally, the scene inside the coach on their way to the menagerie.
Brandon is not a romance writer. (Thank goodness for that). But he is a GREAT WRITER and understands that romantic intrigue is part of the story telling process. I’m not a fiction writer. But, I consume enough fiction and quite frankly I read as many romance novels as I read sci-fi/ fantasy. It’s because romance can be in paranormal stories too like Twilight which is a romance novel at its core. In fact, some of the sci-fi/fantasy books I’ve read can easily be classified as a romance novel.
But, back to SA. The Kaladin/ Shallan / Adolin triangle was bound to crop up. Chances are it will just be in my imagination. Or perhaps, Brandon will build on it. I don’ t want to guess what will happen next.
Yet, in terms of plot development, something has to happen. The Adolin/Shallan pairing is just too perfect in my eyes, And yes @@@@@ Gepeto , I want that pairing, not Kaladin and Shallan.
I said it’s perfect because (1) Jasnah thought of it and she does not make mistakes. (LOL) (2) Adolin/Shallan compliment each other. In today’s term – the star athlete and the girl who is on top of the Dean’s List. (3) the rich man and the impoverished girl.
I can go on and on how perfect the Adolin/ Shallan pairing is in my eyes. And that is the reason why a triangle has to exist and why Kaladin has to be in the mix because it will be truly a saccharine read that borders on rom-com if Adolin and Shallan’s relationship continue as it is.
Hope this explains my thoughts.
If we’re going to talk shipping goggles what about Kaladin/Adolin? Their antipathy is almost a perfect set up for hooking up later. Bridgeboy always sounded like a potential term of endearment to me.
Okay, probably not. Though it makes me wonder how sexual orientation/preference are handled by the Alethi. Is it an identity thing, a behavior thing or something more complicated? I suppose we won’t find out unless it becomes relevant to a character. But c’mon Sanderson, answer *my* wordbuilding questions :P
Speaking of wordbuilding, it’s too bad Alethi society looks to be too straightlaced to accept a non-standard resolution to the love triangle. Why settle for one when two will do?
@25 I never saw it as a gaff, I always saw it as Hoid playing a trick on them, just not the trick they thought it was. In fact I can’t see Wit setting up a gag that requires an accomplice in advance. I can however see him trolling the other three using his abilities, both as a joke and a subtle test. The ‘other’ driver just seemed very ‘Hoid in a magical disguise’-ish to me.
@38
Lol! Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin that would be a twist I don’t think any of us would have seen coming, but considering I just want everyone to be happy that certainly works.
We actually might eventually know find out something about how Alethi society handle sexual orientation/preferences. Drehy has been confirmed gay in interviews, it’s just never been brought up in the book because thus far it’s hasn’t relevant to the story.
Even I wouldn’t see Kashadolin coming. As I said, I don’t think Alethi society is sufficiently flexible about such things. Though considering who his father is keeping company with, maybe Adolin will decide it’s okay to shock the court by attending a feast with Shallan on one arm and Kaladin on the other :D
Hola!
I feel the need to say to all of you: I really enjoy reading everyone’s comments. I’m so glad I found this reread. All the points of view being expressed and opposing viewpoints being discussed have helped me get even more out of this series. I’M DYING FOR BOOK FOUR!!!
@@@@@37 “Jasnah thought of it and she does not make mistakes. ” ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! I am SO with you on that one. I love Jasnah! *sigh*
@@@@@ many of you: and here’s where I love the differing viewpoints- Kaladin, what does he really think of Shallan and will it become romantic? Half of me is with the shippers and wants to see a triangle and see the bromance that’s also nicely brewing get kicked in the balls. (No. I don’t want to see that. I like Adolin and Kaladin becoming friends. I don’t want them as enemies one day like Dalinar and Sadeus. ). The other half of me goes with the grumpy band and realizes that Kaladin has grumpy issues that he needs to grow out of. ( But he was fun to read, sourpuss third wheel).
Which way will he go? Which way will he go?
I’m happy to see which way Sanderson has him go
Oh! So many thoughts on this chapter. Many have already expressed mine. I’m writing from my phone- couldn’t wait to get home- and my thumb is protesting. May write again later
Ciao
@@@@@ 40 Kei_rin and @@@@@ 41 NobleHunter – LOL ménage à trois Now, I cannot unsee it. LOL And this is just after I have chosen Shallan’s wedding dress from the Vera Wang Collection. LOL
@43
She can still use that dress. You’ll just have pick out two tuxes instead of one.
@43 Bwahaha! My plan proceeds apace!
House Dalinar has two colours, right? One in each or maybe alternating primary and accent colour? Do Alethi even wear tuxes?
Hmmm.. it has been awhile since I read (and reread) the books, but in my head, Tarah and Kaladin were an item after he was made a slave and she was killed in one of the escape attempts.
@46
I just looked it up again in WoK. It’s in chapter 63 Fear, when Kaladin is training the bridgemen down in the chasm where he thinks about how he spent a year after Tein’s death, training to be the best spearmen in Amaram’s army and how Tarah “coaxed him out of his single-minded dedication”.
So Kaladin and Tein join the army. Tein dies three battles in, so say a couple a months afters they join Amaram’s army. Kaladin spends a year becoming awesome with the spear. Tarah hits him over the head and drags him back to world of the living. Three years later Kaladin is made a slave.
oMG
i just saw the threesome
i was stuck in refresh limbo for 20 minutes!!!
yes! Why should Kaladin choose!
jhAkkidklugvnxjxhsk!!!!
Am I the only one who does not read any chemistry when I read Kaladin and Shallan? I am sorry, but despite what the entertainment industry is trying to tell me, I don’t consider shouting at each other to be chemistry…
@49 – Gepeto, no, you’re not. While I see the potential base layer laid, I don’t think it’ll go anywhere.
Put me in with those who believe that was still Hoid and not a different driver.
Oh the joys of shipping wars. When I think back to my ideas for WoR before it was released and how hilariously wrong I was it does make me reluctant to make too many predictions. That being said, Kaladin looks likely to be away from Urithiru for most of book 3 – I imagine him returning in dramatic fashion at the end. I’m sure Brandon will have all sorts of twists for us but I wouldn’t be surprised if Shallan and Renarin spend more time together in book 3 than Shallan and Kaladin, particularly since they share a Surge (Lightweaving).
I’m firmly on the Shallan/Adolin ship. It’s just works so well. I’m sure Brandon will send a few icebergs their way but hopefully they’ll come through it stronger.
@@@@@49 Gepeto
No, your not. I don’t see it either. But to be fair, I’m not really interested in romance sub-plots unless they also drive the central conflict of story.
@@@@@ Several
I do see Kaladin and Shallan as two people who can and should become friends and allies, but I think they both have far more in common with Adolin than with each other.
In any case, even if they could stand each other long enough to get through a few dates without resorting to physical violence, there is another party that I am certain would sabotage the relationship sooner or later: Syl.
Despite being an “Honor” Spren, Sly is a self-admitted incurable prankster. Shallan would be a target she could not pass up. A. She’s bonded to a Cryptic; and B. For some reason Syl strikes me as being the jealous type.
There’s no way poor Shallan wouldn’t get tired of having her shoes suddenly sticking to the ground mid stride or a sudden wind scattering about her notes and drawings 2-3 times a day.
@49
I don’t know about others but I do know that when Kaladin and Shallan started yelling at each other I was actually relieved because I thought that meant that they wouldn’t get together. Especially when they started yelling at each other in the King’s Palace. I didn’t take that as a hate into love thing. It wasn’t until Shallan started appearing around the warcamps a bit more that I worrying about Kaladin and then it was after the chasms that I groaned and started looking for the silver lining in having them be attracted to each other.
I don’t ship Kaladin/Shallan. I think that if they ever got together they would be like a Highstorm with a lot of noise and passion and and like a Highstorm they wouldn’t last. While I don’t ship it, I can see the “base layer” as mehndeke called it.
The things that can be read as chemistry between Shallan and Kaladin are right now 1.) All on Kaladin’s side and 2.) Easily explained by other logical things. Shallan hasn’t thus far acted any differently towards Kaladin than she has any other guard and she hasn’t even given him a second thought really. Kaladin on the other hand has noticed Shallan when ever she is the same vicinity as him. And when he done so, it’s often been written in the terms of Shallan’s distinguishing physical feature, her hair. This somewhat mirrors the way Adolin has noticed Shallan. But it only makes sense that Kaladin would notice Shallan. It’s his job to notice the people who are in the vicinity of those he’s guarding.
Everything right now is tenuous but seeing Kaladin as interested in Shallan is technically valid because we don’t know that Kaladin isn’t both doing his job and ignoring his physical attraction to someone pretty, while being a grumpy face.
@wcarter
I really want to see Syl and Pattern interact and by interact I mean yell at each other while their respective Radiant both embarrassingly try to get them to be civil with each other. That’s actually one of the funnier ways I imagined Kaladin and Shallan exposing their Radiant powers to Dalinar being.
Just imagine the scene. Some kinda of meeting with the Kholins and Shallan which Kaladin is guarding. Syl comes floating in and Pattern starts buzzing on Shallan’s dress. The two the them start yelling at each other and Syl makes herself visible because she wants Kaladin to take her side on something. Dalinar being flabbergasted as Shallan and Kaladin try to explain this away but they can’t and eventually have to admit to being Knight Radiant but they didn’t know about the other one. It would have been a funny scene.
I wonder if due to spren politics if Pattern would be just as unhappy for Shallan to be dating someone bonded to an Honorspren?
It might have been said as joke earlier in the comments but Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin actually does work for me because of Adolin being a stabilizing element between Shallan and Kaladin.
@55: one of the things that struck me on my re-read as soon as Syl appeared was why Pattern didn’t inform Shallan right away that Kaladin was accompanied by a Honorspren, and why Syl didn’t mention to Kaladin that Shallan had a Cryptic hiding in her dress. Are spren as invisible to each other as they are to humans? As I remember, neither Shallan nor Kaladin had any idea the other was a KR until at the end.
@@@@@ 56 alisonwonderland I believe they are invisible to one another until they make their presence known. Syl was not aware of Pattern until she heard Pattern helping Renarin during the 4-1 duel. Also, Renarin has been around Kaladin enough yet both their sprens have never acknowledged each other.
But, come to think of it. Jasnah’s spren never acknowledged Pattern though they were practically living with each other in the ship. They were even in Jasnah’s cabin in one scene.
@50: I do not deny there are bases, I deny it means they have chemistry.
@53: I can be into many things, including romance. I can either love it or hate it. For instance, I could not stand Rand’s foursome… For some reason, polygamy just does not sit well with me personally, no offense intended towards anyone.
@54: This is an interesting commentary you made. I have been spending too much time browsing over the SA fandom and I have read many commentaries pertaining to shipping. Based on my observations, it seems as if the majority of the readers instantaneously took on the Kaladin/Shallan ship the second she demanded his boots. Many feel the fact they get under each other’s skin this easily implies a future romantic ship… I tend to disagree as I have a different notion of what chemistry means. Perhaps I too have spend too much time with the same person, but I tend to research simpler things in unions: the ability to simply be with each other, the ability to tease each other without getting angry, the ability to laugh at each other’s antics, the ability to share intimacy about primary needs as living together implies those… For me these little things are the stand mark of a long lasting relationship much more than deep confidences and sharp word play. Deep confidences are important, they’ll happen, but not after two weeks of dating. You don’t readily spill your deepest secret to your new partner for fear of losing him: you wait until the moment is right.
I do agree Kaladin and Shallan could share a short-term relationship but both their personalities would get to them, eventually. I do not see them as a lasting union. I do not see them having a family together, but I can see Adolin and Shallan doing it.
As for Kaladin behaving differently around Shallan, I’d say she pretty much is the only girl in his entourage right now… I think it is normal he noticed her, but I’d also like to point out it is mostly after Teft pointed out she may be an assassin he actively started trailing her more, observing her more. As for the hair, well… Brandon spend a lot of page time having many characters comment on both Shallan and Adolin’s hair color. They are supposed to stand out in the crowd of Alethi.
@55: So Adolin is the glue in the romance/friendship ship? Makes sense. Some pet theory of mine has it Dalinar’s precious unity with collapse when he’ll lose Adolin… Somehow, he appears to be the bonding element between all the players.
@@@@@ 58 Gepeto – the Adolin / Shallan / Kaladin threesome was a joke. LOL It will not happen in Roshar especially with Vorinism as the main religion. The Alethi are too conservative and prudish.
And the most important thing to consider, Brandon is a great writer but he DOES NOT write erotica. And even in the erotica genre, a ménage a trois is a sub genre. So, it is really not in the mainstream at all even with the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey which happens to be a monogamous relationship.
So cheer up. The AdoShalin ship is never going to happen. :-)
@59: Well I am not famed for my marvelous sense of humor… I tend to miss the cue of we stray too far away from the basics when it comes to humor.
Yes, Brandon surely does not write erotica… I… have no idea what erotica written by Brandon would read like… I agree we are not getting that.
I never really felt that particular ship had any chance to float for very long anyway, but coming from WoT, I can say I have had my share of multiple partners unions for a while.
Shipping:
Someone a few weeks ago wrote that this reread seems to be the only place in fandom where the Shallan/Adolin was more supported than Shallan /Kaladin ship.
And the three way would not be allowed for a prince’s wife. Question of inheritance. Plus, the general culture.
Honestly I had forgotten Kaladin had a girlfriend. Because he’s not thought about her in forever.
@55 Kei_rin
OK yeah, that would have been a hilarious scene. Especially if we got to see it through the eyes of Dalinar. How does one tell a living concept to behave?
And you’re right, it is very probable that Pattern would view Syl with distaste. But I imagine his inner scholar would (hopefully) prevent him from acting as immaturely towards Kaladin and Syl might towards Shallan.
@56 Alisonwonderland and 57 Sheiglagh
It does seem odd that none of the spren have interacted with each other yet except for Syl’s remarking on Pattern being present at the duel. And even then she was only talking to Kaladin.. It makes me wonder if spren politics haven’t devolved into a faction based cold war with silent treatments all around in the centuries after the Recreance.
I wonder, actually, how opposed the two spren (Syl and Pattern) will be: we’ve been told that their two spren types don’t get along at all, and just based on how Syl views honor and Pattern views cultivation lies there’s definitely that seed of conflict, as well as accounts they’ve given of the other (like when Syl goes to investigate what a Cryptic might be doing later on).
But Syl and Pattern are also exceptional spren (in that they both were willing to be first-case scenarios) – so it’s possible both of them would have a significantly easier time behaving than we might expect solely from what their spren-type is.
Although a spren argument among the main KRs we’ve seen would be really funny anyways: what if the Stormfather decided to put in his two cents! XD He probably wouldn’t of course but it’s much funnier to see him throwing his hat into an argument as well.
@61: It was I who said it. From my personal observations, the Kaladin/Shallan ship gets more support, on average, in the fandom. The 17th Shard has had many polls in that regards and the answer is clear. If you have a few hours to lose and you go read the discussion out there, it is obvious the majority of the respondents are in favor of Kaladin/Shallan. The shouting match, the love/hate relationship appeal to the majority of them. I have seen the same phenomenon on Reddit, though discussion there is sparse and not well detailed.
I had wondered if it had anything to do with demography… I’ll advance myself here, so feel free to rebuff me if my sayings do not make sense, but I tend to think the younger readers are naturally more attracted to the Kaladin/Shallan union while the older go for the Adolin/Shallan one. My explanations for it are younger readers have lesser experience when it comes to relationships, they have not seen nor lived a long term one and they are not fed up yet by the overuse of certain tropes. They have a different idea in what compatibility means and tend to believe individuals have to have the same intellect, the same backstory, the same powers to work as a unit, but dismiss the lack of compatibility personality wise.
The now defunct Shallarin ship was another good example. Shallan is a scholar. Renarin likes fabrial. They will be an item, even if their respective personality do not mend well at all.
I do not mean by this to imply every single young reader supports the Kaladin/Shallan ship and every older one support the Adolin/Shallan one, simply that it appears to be the case, on average. Think of it as a bell curve function.
The 17th Shard currently has a very young demography while I believe this reread has an older one, on average again. There are old farts on the 17th Shard just as I suspect there are young ones here.
Kaladin’s girlfriend is very intriguing. Not many mentions of her, Brandon skipped those questions on Reddit, but my two cents is Kaladin run all around the bases with that one. Call it intuition.
Hi y’all!
i had a big laugh over the threesome, BUT I do feel that they make a strong trio trope.
I can see the three of them working together as friends. I can see Kaladin growing out of the awkward third wheel position. I can see Shallan liking both of them, but keeping clear boundaries of each relationship. (Unlike Navani who played two brothers… Sorry, I’ll not talk about her today.). I can see Adolin being the henge pin that keeps his friends working well together.
However, I worry that Adolin killing Sadeas has put the trio in jeopardy. I wouldn’t be surprised if in book four Adolin is exiled. Either self exiled or exiled by the King or some other political game. (Then he has some maturing adventure on his own.) That will leave Kaladin and Shallan having to figure each other other out without Adolin’s balance. Dalinar, who is joining the Radiants, won’t be able to help them. He’s of another generation and won’t be able to communicate to them what they need to hear to help them grow. (Although he’ll try and be frustrated by it.)Jasnah is coming back, but I think her objective is different enough from Dalinar’s to be unhelpful to Kaladin/Shallan too.
Of course, my exile theory may not come to pass. But I feel something will happen, and that is my guess
I have another theory about Dalinar and Adolin, as a father and son trope, but I’m afraid to post it, yet. Part of it is Adolin stepping into his father’s shoes, as sons tend to do, eventually.
Probably the only thing disappointing about WOR was the lack of spren interaction with each other. I really was looking forward to Syl and Pattern meeting in this book. Alas it didn’t happen. Maybe we’ll get to see it in the next book
@@@@@ 64 Gepeto – I have never visited the 17th Shard so I really don’t know its demographics. Corollary to that, I visit here often and I don’t know our demographics. :-)
That said, I believe that the different opinions about the Kaladin/ Shallan and Adolin/ Shallan ships are based on consumption of contemporary literature and believe it or not, Shakespeare. :-)
Romance novels junkies will call on the Kaladin/ Shallan ship early on because in that genre, a little conflict between the protagonists is very common. In fact, it is almost part and parcel of the story telling. After all, they have to fight for their happily ever after which they call HEA for short.
That is why I also called on the Kaladin/ Shallan ship. It has the feel of a romance going forward. But, wait!!! This is Brandon Sanderson we are talking about. With Brandon, nothing is obvious. A master storyteller, he makes readers look for nuggets of information so, although there is an upfront pairing of Adolin and Shallan, putting out there a potential pairing of Kaladin and Shallan is a stroke of genius.
Very Shakespearean if I may say. As what my high school Literature teacher said, “you always have to read between the lines and what is underneath when you read Shakespeare.” There is also a Capulet/Montague intrigue brewing in there too. Syl is an Honor spren and Pattern is a cryptic and those two do not get along. A Kaladin / Shallan pairing will be like Romeo and Juliet in the eyes of the spren society. Honor spren calls the cryptic as the Lie Spren, which of course the Cryptics hate.
To repeat myself, the Adolin/ Shallan ship is just way too perfect. I won’t go into details because I’ve already explained it in another post. Yet, like the Kaladin / Shallan ship, it looks too obvious and almost cliche in terms of romantic entanglements. An arranged marriage, a noble-born and beautiful impoverished girl marrying a rich high-born man to save her family from disaster. It almost sound like a Regency era romance
But wait!!! This is Brandon Sanderson again!!! So, it is not that simple nor it is a cliche. So, we see Adolin having self-doubt when it was revealed that Shallan is a KR. All of a sudden, she is of higher rank than Adolin who is of the first dahn to begin with.
I’m for the Adolin/Shallan ship as you know. But, as a reader, I cannot ignore the Kaladin/Shallan ship either. It is a beautiful twist in the storyline if I may say so. And that there is a brewing bromance between Kaladin and Adolin, who as we know now are both having a hard time finding real friends. Surprisingly, they have each other though socially they are light years apart (pun intended).
And there is Shallan. She knew what she wanted from the betrothal with Adolin. He was going to be a safe haven for her family and allow her to pursue her scholarship. In short, Adolin was supposed to be a means to an end. But, she found him delightful and actually easy to fall in love with.
But, Shallan is only 17. She is an adult in Alethkar standards where it seems that 16 is the age of consent. But, she grew up in a virtual prison in her father’s estates. Her first “love affair” turned out to be with an assassin. Adolin seems safe but she is wary of her own feelings.
Now, Kaladin is different. In Shallan’s words, Kaladin is intense and he controls his anger which he unleashes at the right moment. A great plot twist, don’t you think? In contemporary romance parlance , Kaladin is the quintessential bad boy. LOL
So, as a reader, whom will you choose – the knight in shining armor (Adolin) or the Bad Boy (Kaladin)?
I can tell you now that if you ask romance junkies, their choice will not be based on demographics (whether they are young or old) but rather a personal choice. :-)
Cheers!!!
@@@@@ 65 Jonah – Do tell about the father and son trope. I’m a big Adolin fan and want to know what other readers think of him and what might happen..
I remember reading the annotations BWS has up on his website for Mistborn. He actually ‘apologized’ to readers expecting Vin & Kelsier to pair up. He was very aware of the common practice of making the first two POV characters of opposite genders a romantic pair. He didn’t want that to happen. Butter he knows it violated reader expectations.
He’s great at that.
Like others I want to see more spren interaction.
But at least for part of book 3, Kaladin is going to be far from the KR city.
@67: I spend too much time on average on the fandom, which has led me to draw many conclusions. Spend enough time on a fandom and you get to know its people, their age, their marital status as most individuals will inadvertently drop hints here and there about it.
Among those who support the Adolin/Shallan, I know many for being older and among those supporting the Kaladin/Shallan I know many who are younger. Each time a new teenager/young adult drops into a discussion on the matter, it nearly automatically starts to root for the later and not the former. However, you could form the appropriate argument stipulating my sample is not large enough to draw large scale conclusions, which is true. It is why I advertise my previous comments were to be taken with… a grain of salt.
Your analogy is interesting. While I have never read Shakespear I feel the love/hate trope was not as present during my youth as it is now. Perhaps because the entertainment industry did not target the youngsters so much back then nowadays. There were much less products to be consumed and YA did not exist. I feel it perhaps makes a difference. Younger generation, I feel, is more firmly tight into the present time than the previous ones, so perhaps it lacks the introspection required to figure out if a union can survive the passage of time.
The Adolin/Shallan ship may have started as a common trope: rich boy meets pretty poor girl, but it stops there. The rich boy is falling from grace while the poor girl is rising up. The rich boy is a jock while the girl is a nerd… this does not happen very often. All in all, the handsome rich boy almost never ends up with the girl: he always turns evil or is described as dumb or dull… Adolin also is a Cassanova by reputation who does not have much to add to the plate once you get to know him. A screen of smoke and once it blows away, you see him for what he is: a very shy young man who does not know how to talk to a girl, but is friendly, handsome, rich and powerful enough he does not have to do much to get dates… Typically, in the entertainment industry, the player ends up falling for the one special girl… We rarely get a player that isn’t one actually. All of these little twists make me yearn for more.
As for Kaladin/Shallan, I have not find much ground outside a too common trope. I found myself simply not wanting to read about this ship as I feel I read it already. As for smoldering rock comment, the old farts tend to have met many smoldering rocks and many did not pan out into anything lasting. Of course, there are exceptions, but I somehow doubt Kaladin/Shallan would be one.
Father and Son Trope
Call me in for LOVING it. We so rarely get to read about parent/children relationship in fantasy stories. Most of the time, the youngster leaves home and his family to seek adventure and his growth occur faraway from the prying parents eyes. I for one want to read about positive parent/children relationships. I want Dalinar to take an active role into his son’s upcoming growth. I do not wish for Adolin to be banished, to grow outside his family and to come back a changed man. It has been done before and while it can be quite effective, I’d rather read about Adolin learning to grow within his family. I want him to face his father, not run away (which I think is very likely to happen) and I want Dalinar to realize, finally, how much he does care for his son and stop jeopardizing him for his agenda. Currently, Adolin is willing to die for Dalinar, he is willing to sacrifice his life for his father and while this is endearing in its own way, it is slightly sad. I keep waiting for Dalinar to act as a father to his son (as opposed to a general) and I hope to see it happen.
I have sincerely lost count of the number of scenarios I have made myself of how their relationship could evolve… There is great potential here. I have always think it likely people would try to manipulate Adolin at some point, trying make him grow into another Blackthorn to oppose Dalinar, only to fail as whatever temper he shares with his father is heavily balanced with his sweet side. I think Adolin will reach a very vulnerable state over the next book and what happens next is unclear. It is likely Dalinar and Adolin will clash, but I wish for the father to initiate reconciliation, not the son. Fathers seem so useless in fantasy nowadays…. Let’s give a good role to Dalinar.
For what little my opinion is worth in this matter, I’m agreeing with Gepeto on the demographics in general, and for many of the reasons given. In part, I can’t quite buy the literature argument because I don’t see Sanderson fandom as being a group all that deeply versed in romance novels. :) Shakespeare, yes; Harlequin, not so much. As Gepeto noted, of course you can’t draw hard lines between age and ship, but I think there really are strong tendencies in that direction. A better cultural connection might be movie expectations… but even there, I think the more experienced readers tend to see through the bad-boy tropes and have learned (sometimes the hard way) that people who start out yelling at each other might fall into a passionate affair, but it’s not much of a foundation for a lasting relationship.
I suspect there may be other factors that determine who hangs out on 17th Shard vs. who hangs out at Tor.com, but I haven’t really researched it. Back in the dark ages (well, about 5 years ago…) we did an informal survey of the Wheel of Time rereadership. What we discovered, among other things, was that the average age was about 36, but the ages ranged from 16 to 69. We also discovered that men outnumbered women by nearly 2 to 1, about half were parents and/or grandparents (with at least one great-grandparent), and the vast majority either had or were working on a college degree. Not sure what that proves, and no idea what a similar poll on 17th Shard would reveal, but there it is. Mostly, it proves that we had fun doing silly polls whenever Leigh took a week off.
sheiglagh @@@@@ 67 – Minor correction: Adolin is second dahn. Only the king is first dahn; the king’s heir, the highprinces, and their immediate heirs are second; the non-heir children of the king and the highprinces are third, along with an assortment of other highranking nobles. So Elhokar is first dahn, Dalinar and Adolin (and Sadeas, Aladar, Sebarial, etc.) are second dahn, Renarin is third dahn.
Any chance of us ever gettting an Elantris, Mistborn, and/or Warbreaker re-read?
BenW @72 – I’m planning on doing a Warbreaker reread when we finish WoR, while we’re waiting for SA3 to come out. As for the others… I don’t know. Tor isn’t really interested in having multiple Sanderson-series rereads going at once, but within that limitation, I suspect we’ll do some others. They’re just too much fun not to, right? :)
@71: I think we would be surprised at the number of female readers Brandon has… However, I believe they are less likely to dwell onto the fandom, especially the older ones as they tend to have other occupations as well. I absolutely agree with the movie connection, which is why I used the term “entertainment” in my previous post. I am not well versed enough on literature to make a connection there, though I’d say there are many teenage girls who are currently reading Brandon and these are likely to have read romance novels. By romance novels, I do not mean Harlequin (do these even still exist???), but the average teenage flick turning around young love such as Twilight or Divergence….. However, adult female readers are also likely to have read a few of those chick-lit stories which are, again, very geared towards romance in all its glorious and less glorious cliches.
Men readers probably never heard of such stories and the young ones would probably run and hide from any book labelled as chick-lit…
That being said, there has been surveys on the 17th Shard on the demography. I’d say it has changed a lot in the last year. Whereas I think the average poster used to be older, nowadays the majority are teenagers. Not even young adults in College, but kids into High School. When they chose to engage in serious discussion, I have notice certain patterns into these when it comes to shipping. Needless to say, very young people have little relationship experience which makes them more biased towards certain tropes: they have been told all their life this is how it works, so it must be even if they lack the experience to back it up.
As you say, more experience readers tend to look for something different… They are more easily fed up with generic tropes mostly because of over-exposure. When you have read countless farmboy with a sword, it gets harder to be drawn into a new one…
As for which readers hang out where, it depends. The 17th Shard has many sub forums where people simply talk about their life. It is a different experience, but the discussion on the Stormlight Archive forum is not as lively as it once been. I suspect it is due to the lack of new material to talk about, everything else having been discussed over and over again. The Tor.com enables to dig more deeply into the story and to focus on a few of the smaller aspects which don’t get pick up on other discussions. It is also great our discussion is able to evolve from one subject to the other while discussion on the 17th Shard is tied to one, which is also fun, but different. Also, some discussion keeps coming back there with the flock of new posters which can be tiring…
Are we sure Adolin is the 2nd dahn? I thought we weren’t sure if he was the 2nd or the 3rd.
@72 I am ok with one at a time, In fact I would love a re-read of the entire Cosmere, But I am willing to make do with just the novels if I must.
Edit: Didn’t realize there was a post between mine and yours
I think an informal poll would be interesting – I’m guessing I’m among the younger people here at being 24. It’d be interesting to see how age demographic skews things…maybe I fall between the two camps because I’m not old enough to think Shallan should settle down with Adolin but not young enough to be caught up in her possible whirlwind romance with Kaladin.
@64 Gepeto: I would not be surprised if Kaladin rounded all the bases with Tarah – he comments later on in the chasms about how he’s holding Shallan closer than any other woman since her, when they’re basically stuck together in their little cubby from the highstorm.
@69 Braid_Tug: I remember those annotations as well. Those are always good reads: they let you see that Sanderson both cares about 1) not always playing fast and true to what tropes are and 2) challenging himself to go beyond what he’s already done. Although aside, I always found it odd people thought to pair Vin and Kelsier when they had the whole mentor/student thing going on…maybe I’m just bad at understanding shipping in general.
Informal Poll answer: I am 29, and will be 30 this December.
I’m 35.
@76: I actually thought you were older ;-) As I said, we can’t pigeon hole everyone within a camp simply based on their age: some young people have more experience than older ones. I was merely talking about a tendency I have noticed. I have, of course, not made an empiric research on the matter. For instance, if I go on Tumblr (very young crowd), the discussion there is widely different than the one we have here… It does not even compare. I would never be able to engage in anything serious discussion out there with most people so I leave the young ones to their own debates.
For myself, I do not think Shallan should settle with Adolin, right now. She is very young, but I think she should chose him, ultimately.
I am personally convinced Kaladin rounded all the bases with Tarah. I am glad you agree. I am also convinced Adolin has never passed first base. I would not even be surprised to learn he has not gone there all that often. Gee, I would not even be surprised if he has never even kissed a girl before (doubtful, but not unlikely) His reaction to Shallan’s kisses speaks the tale of a very inexperienced young man. Had he kissed countless of girls, he would not have been disarmed by her simple touch. He would have been more self-assure, more adventurous.
Vin and Kelsier was a weird ship for me…. Grown-up man with a teenager? It just is.. No. Sorry. I can’t. I get the same feeling when people talk of Wax and Marasi. He is 40. She is 18. Just no.
@@@@@ Informal Poll, like Gepeto, I’m 35. And yes I’m a firm Shallan♡Adolin shipper.
As concerns non-standard resolutions to love triangles — I always thought it was perfectly obvious. Shallan ALREADY HAS a second, conveniently dark-eyed identity. Shallan for Adolin, Veil for Kaladin, and everybody’s happy because Shallan splits her brain in two and doesn’t consider it cheating because Shallan and Veil are two different people. (And yes, I’m sure that everybody being happy lasts for at best a third of a book before it all starts breaking down… but I would almost lay money on that kind of thing happening. Because this is Shallan, and she is so good at lying to herself.)
@@@@@ 80 OMG We are back to the threesome again but a different interpretation LOL
@@@@@ Alice – thank you for the correction on Adolin’s dahn.
@@@@@ Gepeto and @@@@@ Alice – the “conflict” between two would-be lovers is actually very old. In the entertainment industry as Gepeto had said, “It happened one night” a rom-com was filmed in 1934. As for literature, Shakespeare comedy “The Taming of the Shrew” falls into that category.
As for the “bad boy” hero, Heathcliff of Emily Bronte’s Wuthering Heights is a good example. And I don’t even want to go to Tess of the d’urbervilles (1891) which is an entirely different kettle of fish.
i guess what I’m trying to say is that the more we analyze the Kaladin / Shallan / Adolin ships, we are so near both classical and contemporary literature that it will not behoove us to look into them.
As a reader, I see this as part of Brandon’s genius as a writer. He is obviously aware of the classics and contemporary literature. That he can writr a yarn that uses both shows his mastery of his craft.
i am not sure what is the demographics of Brandon’s audience. I am one of them and I know who I am. From what you are saying here, then I am atypical. :-)
@informal poll: I’m 28. I ship Adolin/Shallan. Though I am okay with Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin. I’m not okay with Kaladin/Shallan, though I’ll resign myself to it if happens in book. Just be happy people.
@69
Vin and Kelsier? I never even got a hint of that! I just saw them as a student/teacher, daughter/father relationships. Though I guess most YA books now do seem follow that pattern of following only the two main leads who eventually end up together. But Mistborn isn’t that kind of story. Neither is Stormlight Archive.
@Geapto
Yep, Harlequin romance novels still exist and actually make a good market. You can read a Harlequin romance is a hour or two and just put it aside. There was a time when I needed to give my mind a break from serious thought and just grabbed a Harlequin novel because they don’t require a large time investment and because the Harlequin novel is so structured and you know exactly what you are getting it allowed me to mentally rest.
@several
I agree that Kaladin probably has a bit more experience with women than Adolin but I don’t think he’s more knowledgeable about women or relationships than Adolin because of it. I’m pretty convinced that Tarah was the one leading the relationship with Kaladin. Neither Kaladin or Adolin really know what they are doing when it comes to romance. It’s kinda sweet really.
@80
That would have so many readers yelling. I’m assuming that Kaladin and Adolin don’t know about the other in this scenario. Kaladin thinks he’s with a women named Veil and Adolin thinks he’s with Shallan. Shallan might be able to separate Veil and herself and the boys might not know they are the with same person but we as the reader do know that Shallan and Veil are the same person. I don’t think readers would be able to handle that kinda split. Essentially Shallan would be cheating. It’s not something that is palatable to me.
I think this would also present problems for Kaladin and Shallan given their Knight orders. I don’t think Syl would see Kaladin being with Veil as different as Kaladin being with Shallan. Which in this case would not be an honorable relationship. Not everyone is aware of what is going on. It just feels illicit. And Shallan needs truths to continue forward as lightweaver. Splitting herself into two separate people doesn’t seem like that is the way to continue finding truths about ones self.
I’d much rather see a straightforward triad/poly relationship between the three than something like this.
Now if something like this type of relationship was going to happen and Shallan is with Adolin while Veil ends up with someone else, I could see putting Veil/ Mraize. I still think this would hurt Shallan’s growth as Radiant though and it’s not very fair to Adolin.
I don’t believe we have said anything conclusive pertaining to the demography of Brandon’s readers. I have not made such observations as not all readers will engage into the fandom. I know there are more women than assumed as these tend to be more quiet and less prone to go to the gathering (on average, this is not a hard core rule).
However, I have made an observation on age and the likelihood of readers rooting for one ship or another. I apologize if you fall outside my personal observations.
All ships have roots somewhere. I am not classically enough versed to comment those. However, I do believe Brandon is a smart enough writer to know, the moment he wrote the boots scene, his readers would start to ship Kaladin/Shallan. The use of a very common trope was so obvious (and forced) it was nearly impossible to miss it.
@81: I believe we have said anything conclusive pertaining to the demography of Brandon’s readers. I have not make such observations as not all readers will engage into the fandom. I know there are more women than assumed as these tend to be more quiet and less prone to go to the gathering (on average, this is not a hard core rule).
However, I have made an observation on age and the likelihood of readers rooting for one ship or another. I apologize if you fall outside my personal observations.
All ships have roots somewhere. I am not classically enough versed to comment those. However, I do believe Brandon is a smart enough writer to know, the moment he wrote the boots scene, his readers would start to ship Kaladin/Shallan. The use of a very common trope was so obvious (and forced) it was nearly impossible to miss it.
@82: I’ll have to check on Harlequin next time I stop by the pharmacy. I’ll admit I have never read one of those. When I need a brain break, I typically pick up a YA novel or a chick-lit one. I may puke somewhere through my readings, but my brain is happy.
I don’t know who between Kaladin and Tarah initiated the relationship. It seems as if Tarah dragged Kaladin out of it, but somehow I don’t think Kaladin is as shy as Adolin when it comes to the next phase. He struck as the kind of guy who’s always in control no matter what while Adolin always struggles to keep his. I am also unable to put the words “Kaladin” and “sweet” into the same sentence, but it may be a strictly personal issues. For the rest, I think Adolin is adorable in his unexpected shyness and his false boosting as a player. What a player, can’t even kiss a girl without strong incentive and a great deal of blushing. For me, he’ll always be the sweet one. As for Kaladin, I am still trying to define him… Intense, but complicated?
Count me in those who would yell in front of any polygamous unions… but I don’t fear so much for it. I seriously doubt this is where Brandon is going.
@@@@@ Kei_Rin
So you’re the same age as me. Interesting.
@@@@@ Several
The few rereaders I met at a JordanCon a couple of years back were all adults. Several of them are active both on this and Leigh’s rereads. I think part of the age discrepancies may be that Tor.com is well… Tor.com. It’s a publisher’s website that features books and writers of all sorts. The 17th Shard is a Sanderson specific fansite.
This much is pure speculation, but I would be willing to guess a greater percentage of the younger crowd on the 17th shard buy fewer hard copy books in general. If they’re more likely to read at least some books on a tablet, they’re less likely to be interested in a publisher’s website.
@@@@@ Gepeto You accidentally double posted at @@@@@84 or maybe the website did it with one of its frequent glitches who knows. I flagged the second one so the mods can take care of it.
I know, I saw the double post. I tried to solve it, but I failed. I don’t understand how it happened… I just clicked once on send.
@wcarter
Neat! *fist-bump for age solidarity*
I feel like we need to ask 17th Shard to do their own poll. The re-readers at Tor.com wish to know the demographics of SA fan from different corners of the internet. Someone put the poll up on reddit, so we can get their numbers as well.
@Gepeto
Have fun with Harlequin! I would just remember that’s it’s just as much fantasy as anything else and not take it seriously. Like it said it’s good for when you want something that you know will have a happy ending, it’s a feel good and easy read. You’ll might still puke somewhere along the read though. Sometimes I feel like YA that is targeted towards young girls/women is like training wheels for Harlequin novels.
Kaladin/Tarah: I feel like it’s implied in the few things that Kaladin says that Tarah was the one who initiated things between them. For me I don’t get the idea that Kaladin would be more confidant when it comes to women but we haven’t seen him that situation yet. I’ll agree that Kaladin is someone who would prefer to be in control of whichever situation he’s in, where as Adolin could roll with the punches a bit more.
@87: The 17th Shard has made a poll recently. I doubt official statistic can be dragged out of it, but there were more youngsters than adults. There aren’t any over 30 years people who regularly post. There are, but not as many. Typically, they are easy to find out. Have fun googling there: there is a LOT of material, some good, some bad, some ugly, but some amazing as well. I think the Edgedancer theory I am so found of was born there….
Alright. I think never having read one Harlequin is missing to my personal culture. I’ll add “read one Harlequin” to my personal reading list for the end of the year. I agree YA can sometimes read as soppy romance. I am still trying to figure what I think of Brandon’s own Reckoners series… Interesting setting and very angsty nerdy overly talented young main protagonist. It is not bad, but it lacks some depth as most YA. It reads well when you have only half a brain working.
Yes, I do think it is imply Tarah initiated the union, but I feel that once it was installed, Kaladin would be more in… control. Somehow. I agree we have no idea how well he does with the women, but it is Kaladin… I somehow have high expectations. For better or for worst. Adolin just does not seem in much control when it comes to girls… he does roll out with the punches with Shallan… She is leading him and not the other way around. Quite interesting.
Gepeto @74 – I was taking the word of the Coppermind gurus for Adolin’s dahn. In rereading Brandon’s actual words, it’s a little less clear whether the heir apparent of a highprince holds the same rank as his father, or if he’s down a rank. Whoever wrote the Coppermind entry clearly interpreted it as the former, because it’s stated that way. Putting it in context with what Brandon wrote, though, it would seem that either Elhokar’s young son would be first dahn, or Adolin would be third.
In any case, we at least know he’s not first dahn. :)
If I had to pick a ship, it would be Jasnah-Kaladin. A neat reversal of the traditional older man-younger woman trope. But I am flexible enough to see that, more so than a possible Jasnah-Kaladin ship, Brandon appears to be laying down stronger hints of a possible Shallan-Kaladin ship, though I think it would be entirely too hasty at the moment to dismiss either possibility. Anything can happen in the next book. But it would be interesting to see what Gepeto would do if Brandon ends of pairing Shallan and Kaladin … stop reading the books? The fervour with which he appears to be holding on to the idea that that particular ship can’t happen fascinates me.
@89: The Coppermind is written by fans: it is not always accurate. I do recall the WoB on the matter were not conclusive. However, we do know Adolin is not the first dahn. When Kaladin mets him, back in WoK, he notes the nodes on this uniform mark him as a lighteye of the 2nd or 3rd dahn. Early on in WoK, Adolin tries to convince Renarin to come and spy on Sadeas by stating they were of high enough dahn, which implies both brothers have the same rank. On the side note, it is interesting to note Adolin, in early WoK, was staying away, with Renarin, from the “grown-up” discussion and politics quite a lot. At one point, he talked in front of the king and Elhokar gave him some weird look which seemed to mean: “What are you doing there?”….
Another clue is Jakamav. Adolin described him as a lighteye of the 3rd dahn. Had he been of the same dahn as him, shouldn’t he have said: “Jakamav was of the same dahn as him.”? Besides, Jakamav is not a prince, which gives credence to Adolin being of the 2nd dahn. It is likely Renarin is of the same rank as well.
@90: I would not be out there discussing the book if I did not hold anything in favor…. As for my reaction shall Brandon push forward the Kaladin/Shallan ship? I think it may alternate with disinterest or strong dislike in both characters unless Brandon makes it up by finding a new more suitable partner for Adolin. I mean, having a girlfriend is not part of Kaladin’s character growth, but it is part of Adolin. If Brandon decides Adolin is not worth writing about and the story shall focus entirely on Kaladin…. I dunno. I can’t predict how I will feel, though I believe I may lose some of my passion is Brandon ruins Adolin’s character.
Why Adolin?
He’s different that your average fantasy character. He does not have this inner brooding reluctant under-dog hero characteristic all main protagonists have nowadays. He’s refreshing and alternatively, I do share many traits in common with him, which gives me the ability to understand him better and to emphasize with him more. Bottom line is it all goes back to tropes we are tired of reading and I am tired of reading of Kaladin-like heroes. Give me someone different. Adolin is just that, right now.
I’ll admit that my part of my preference for Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin is for the KalAdolin part, since it’s the probably the only way it’ll happen. Stupid hetero characters.
I think Kaladin/Shallan might end up a bit one sided on Kal’s side. Though I might be misremembering Shallan’s reaction to him. Though with Kaladin going on detached duty maybe he’ll run into someone suitable in the next book.
I also think Brandon might be laying ground work for complicating factors in Shallan/Adolin which since they get along so well depends on external drivers. The relationship has to stay interesting over several books, possibly the whole series, and if he’s not going to rely on either of them being stupid or just miscommunicating then he needs other things to muck stuff up. Sadeas, Veil, and Kaladin seems like good candidates for mucking.
@91 I wonder how Adolin will react to his little screw-up with Sadeas. Kaladin and other brooding heroes would, well, brood like crazy from guilt and concern for the consequences. Maybe he’ll take a page from Shallan’s book and just pretend it didn’t happen; buy into his cover story so thoroughly that he starts to believe it himself.
Here’s a poll from 17th Shard shortly after WoR came out about who Shallan will end up with: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6519-shallans-relationship/
Adolin got 202 votes, Kaladin got 204. Not much in it.
Regarding demographics, back in tWoK Shallan does say to Jasnah that “we children love things that are shiny and loud”. Personally, I really enjoyed the scenes with Shallan and Kaladin down in the chasms. It reads like a short story – stripped down plot and characters, drama, excitement, character growth etc. I’ve specifically re-read that part many many times. Yet it never made me want to ship them. I can certainly see why others would want to after those “shiny and loud” scenes but it doesn’t make their relationship any more plausible. It’s not like they need to have a romantic relationship for more scenes like that either.
Regarding Kaladin in isolation, I don’t see him as a “bad boy” type but more like “angry young man” type, not really in control of his emotions. I think he’ll have to mature a lot, over many years, before we see him have a long term romantic relationship.
Regarding Syl and Shallan, I have an odd take on this as I actually see them being quite similar in personality in many ways, though definitely not all. I don’t know what the conflict is between Honorspren and Cryptics but I can easily picture Syl and Shallan ganging up on Kaladin.
@92: Adolin is not the introspective brooding type: he is the extroverted feeler one, which is the most refreshing thing I have read in recent years. In all probability, his reaction will be emotionally filled and very outgoing. He does not have the personality type of those who keeps it all on the inside, so it’s burst out of him, sooner or later. He may try to pretend, but it will eat him alive up until he can’t take it anymore.
I don’t buy into him playing decoy forever. He is too honest, too mentally direct. These kind of individuals need to talk it out to reflect, they won’t sit in a corner pondering about endlessly or if they do, it will result in an non-stopping loop of anxiety until it blasts.
So Adolin will talk in I suspect a very emotional display. We know how little control he has over his emotive side (seriously all strong feelers tend to struggle with control, not just Adolin), so I suspect the cocktail that will irrevocably brew into him will bring him to the edge of madness. My personal experience with extroverted feelers breaking down: it is intense. Expect shouts, screams, shaking and tears. Strong emotions and all that goes with it.
I dunno if Adolin will follow this exact pattern, but I doubt he will be able to play it out normal for very long. Shallan was perfectly happy in forgetting everything, remembering was the hard part. Adolin won’t be able to forget, he’ll need to speak it up to start the process of forgetting and moving on.
Rob @@.-@ / 39 Re Hoid and the driver-swap:
not even on re-reads it occured to me that Hoid might be in disguise as the new driver. You have a point about him *not* working with accomplices, but I just don’t see him patiently waiting by the carriage until his “customers” get back and then drive them back. I always thought that he probably arragend for several people to wait at different swap-points, and he would get on with being busy. (this wouldn’t even take into account his “knowing” ability).
Alice, thanks for adressing the flute.
I really wonder, if it will play a further role in the SA, I kind of hope it.
And (again) I’d like to point out the fabulous description of the chicken, starting with the tiny bit of shell ;)
Re reader demographics:
with Brandon writing YA-novels he has assured new young readers and the bleed-over from the decades old (since its start) WoT gave him access to a larger adults upto “elderly” clientele. A wide “biodiversity” I would guess.
The representation on the internet shouldn’t be the same as the readership at large though.
@94 Well I suppose we need a change from Kaladin-the-depressed making sub-optimal decisions. If you’re right about Adolin’s reaction we’re going to see him start to make his own special kind of sub-optimal decisions, though it least it seems like it will be more grounded in reality. By which I mean it’s the political and other indirect consequences that will bother Adolin rather than abstract guilt.
@93: Hmmm the poll ended up getting even results on the 17th Shard? That’s an old thread, the character analysis into that one were not great, if I recall properly… I should read it again. The more recent one had Kaladin and Shallan being deeply in love… As I said, the demography changed. Most of those who answered in the first one are not as active now. That’s the problem with books being released every 3-4 years. Right after the release, you have an influx of interested readers, but after a year, it weens down due to lack of new material.
@95: I agree we should not base ourselves onto the the Internet demography to account for Brandon’s true demography. Teenagers and young adults are more likely to engage into fandom than adults. Not to say adults and elderly don’t, they do, but in lesser proportion. It is true many of the former WoT fans have moved onto reading Brandon. I count myself among those.
@96: Kaladin, Shallan, Renarin as most fantasy heroes deal with their hardships by closing out on themselves and not talking to anyone. Kaladin gets very depressed and internally brood. Shallan dissociates and creates a new life to forget the one she disliked. Renarin, I am not sure what he does, but it happens on the inside as well. I suspect Dalinar falls into that mold as well.
Adolin, I suspect, will open up while breaking as opposed to closing down. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him spill out every single thing that ever bothered him, but he previously managed to sucked in without a reaction. One of my pet head canon has him screaming to Dalinar that “Mother would have approved”. Bam. Let’s deal with mommy issues while we are at it and let’s force daddy to face the fact he forgot.
I also suspect the influx of emotions will strongly impair his thinking faculties and we are bound to read a very impulsive Adolin making the worst decisions for the bad reasons simply because he can’t see past his own turmoil. However, unlike Kaladin, this will happen out in the open. He’ll speak about it, but won’t be able to hear reason until he starts to cope.
All in all, it will make him very vulnerable, perhaps more so than the others as he won’t be able to hide.
So. In regards to the discussion of shipping: I am most certainly the odd one out. Specifically in the fact that I have been dying for Kaladin’s homecoming to see resurgence of *gasp* LARAL! Now that Kaladn is a KR, he is also a Lighteyes. And though I am most likely reading far too much into it, Laral would have JUMPED on that opportunity (marriage be damned, most especially if it means escaping Roshone and elevating her status). I kind of want to see her not as Kaladin’s final love interest (Shallan is intriguing but the whole “Killed your brother, plus you’re a lightweaver” thing kind of puts the breaks on that) but as more of a stumbling block he trips over as he comes to terms with the new position/responsibility that being a KR entails. In the end, I actually like Sylphrena for the ultimate ship. I don’t think love NEEDS a physical relationship to still be love, and she sort of represents all the good inherently in him.
I was goingto write more but storm it if I can’t write a single word wiot having to edit . lagtastic!
P.S. Hello and whatnot from a first time poster
@98 turtlecommando
Hi! Glad you joined in the comments! I too have wondered about Laral especially since Kaladin is on his way back to his home town. I do stop short of shipping kal and Laral , mostly because I never really liked her much and she doesn’t seem “right” for lack of a better word for Kaladin. It would be interesting to see her again though. Also I hope Kaladin’s parents are okay, because if they aren’t, that will be one more thing that Kaladin will feel guilty for and it might send him off the deep end again…
@99
Oh, I agree. Laral is….the quintessential lighteyes. Everything Kaladin hates. I just want to see her try to get romantically involved with Kaladin to try and manipulate him, only to get rebuffed by Kaladin and a more than a little jealous/protective Syl.
But, his parents…I do agree that I am worried about his folks, and how he is going to deal with the homecoming. Will they fear him? Hate him? What will they, who knew him as a child, think about him when he returns as a Knight Radiant? Questions.. So many questions.
@turtlecommando
Welcome!
I’m also looking forward to Kaladin’s homecoming.
I actually think that Laral was just forced into a seriously sucktastic situation and feel sorry for her. She wasn’t right for Kaladin at all, not really. After her father died things did not go well for her at all. She was manipulated and moved around without much, if any, say in her life. She was young and didn’t know how navigate herself to any safe harbors. I highly doubt it was really her choice to marry Rashone after Rillir died. She might actually have like Rilliar but she was forced into marrying Roshone. In fact every one of her expected unions where more about her wealth than about her. Kaladin’s family wanted a union because it would secured being able to send Kal to learn how to be surgeon. Roshone wanted to secure her wealth by marrying her to his son and when his son died married her himself to insure that wealth didn’t leave.
Laral might actually have done well with Rillir, he was exactly what she wanted. He was being raised as a lighteyed leader. That’s why she pushed Kaladin to go war when they were younger. She knew that everyone expected her and Kal to marry and she didn’t want a darkeyed surgeon. The ironic thing is that now Kaladin is exactly who Laral dreamed of marrying when she was younger. Kaladin might a soft spot for her because they were friends as children but I don’t think he’ll be interested in a romantic way.
I just noticed Laral name is perfectly symmetrical, so is Rillir’s for that matter. But I’m not surprised that Roshone would be prideful enough to give his son a symmetrical name. It’s a little surprising that Laral’s parents did that though, given that a symmetrical name is considered a bit blasphemous.
I see no indication that Kaladin has any kind of romantic or sexual attraction to Shallan at this point. Conversely, he sees her as an opportunist. His only question is whether or not she is also an assassin. He finally concludes in this chapter that she is not – although that question will linger in his mind until some point in the later chasm episode when he sees Shallan in a new light once their conversations become serious rather than snippy. Only then is there a mutual admiration. Kaladin is in awe of Shallan’s ability to be optimistic despite her dysfunctional family, and Shallan is in awe of Kaladin’s strength of character and controlled intensity. How their relationship will progress is currently unknown to the reader. I note that Sanderson has avoided a scene in Urithiru at the end of the book where Kaladin and Shallan have a long private conversation about themselves and their surgebinding powers. That way Kaladin doesn’t have to account for the absence of such power while in the chasm (i.e., oathbreaking connected with inaction on the assassination plot against the king), and Shallan doesn’t have to talk about her suppressed trauma involving her mother’s death. Presumably that conversation will occur in the next SA installment.
One interesting aspect of this chapter that hasn’t been noted is Hoid’s motive for his surprising appearance as a coachman. Was he trying to inform Kaladin that he was aware of the latter’s mastery of Windrunner flight? Was that supposed to provide an incentive for Kaladin to reveal his powers to Dalinar? Was he trying to get back his magical flute so that he could give it to Shallan, who could actually play various instruments and was an artist and Lightweaver? Was he looking for an opportunity to meet Shallan again? If so, then why is he at a loss when Shallan impulsively runs at him and gives a big hug? Does he know that Adolin is prone to jealousy and wishes to minimize his annoyance? Why does he seem to disappear right afterwards?
@102 STBLST: That conversation you’re talking about…I get the feeling both Shallan and Kaladin are actively putting it off. Although it’s not much, they seem to be avoiding each other as much as they can in the final part of the book (although admittedly, they don’t have much opportunity and it’s entirely possible Sanderson just decided to put that off for book 3). But still, it took them falling in a chasm with Kaladin cut off from his powers to get one heart-to-heart in: I wonder if the second will require as much effort?
As to Hoid’s motive…It feels like if we could parse out Hoid’s motive we would have solved one of the greatest mysteries of the Cosmere. That said…it feels like Wit was focusing more on Kaladin in this chapter than either Adolin or Shallan. Partially he doesn’t seem to interact too much with Adolin and Shallan – but more importantly, he’s there the entire time while Kaladin is on the seat with him and they can chat, but once Shallan shows up and Kaladin has to be in the carriage, Hoid leaves at some point. As to why specifically Kaladin (or at least primarily Kaladin), that I’m unsure of: Hoid seems to be pushing Kaladin towards his KR status as well as trying to help him get over both his personal and cultural biases, as well as possibly trying to help Kaladin deal with his funk. Kaladin only notices how down the weather is making him when he isn’t actively talking with Hoid. It might just be Hoid is playing the long game (something he’s VERY good at): pushing Kaladin towards the revelations he needs to survive, or maybe just providing what emotional support he can to the KRs he’s around (like when he helped Shallan out).
Hi all – I guess this chapter is one that gets all the lurkers out. I’ve been a reader since the Prologue, first comment here.
I was wondering if anyone else wondered if the end of the exchange:
“You!” Shallan exclaimed.
“Yes, yes. People certainly are good at identifying me today. Perhaps I need to wear—”
Was “— a veil.” Then there would be a lovely parallel with the “I wouldn’t want you to go flying off on me” comment from earlier in the chapter.
@102: Where do you get Adolin is prone to jealousy? He seems rather the opposite, in a general manner. He has express no jealousy whatsoever at finding Kaladin a better and more efficient fighter than him nor did he think he should have been a Radiant at the end of WoR. So I am curious.
As to Hoid, I dunno if anyone read my early commentary on him, but my thoughts were he was there mainly for Kaladin. I absolutely hated he felt forcing Kaladin to evolve had to come at the price of Adolin. That was just plain mean and it gives credence to the idea Hoid is harvesting Radiants, though we have this WoB stating he doesn’t… This is strange for me. On one side Brandon tells us Hoid interest in people is not linked to their Radiant abilities, but all individuals he is interested in are proto-Radiants………
@ALL: For myself, I found thinking the absence of a conversation between Kaladin and Shallan quite telling. Despite their “assumed attraction”, neither of them as sought the other to discuss recent development, worst it is Adolin Shallan is keen on seeing towards the end. It is with him she strives to make things right even thought she had the confirmation, by Mraize, she did not need the union to safeguard her family anymore.
I cannot help wondering that if Kaladin and Shallan were so infatuated with each other, they would have try to meet up again. When Shallan learns about Kaladin, she is happy for him, but her thoughts are not geered towards needing to talk to him. However, I fear this is not an argument made to convince many people, but I felt it was worth mentioning.
Shallan goes to Adolin and not Kaladin once they are secured in Urithiru. I assume Kaladin and Shallan will talk again, but when is unsure with Kaladin being away. He may even not be back yet by the end of book 3. For my part, I am glad to see Kaladin taking some time away from the main story arc. This should leave more place to other characters.
Edit: The other comment was removed as a repeat.
@102,103, and 105
I think that scene that you all are talking about between Kaladin and Shallan already happened off screen. Remember that Shallan and Kaladin were standing around together waiting for Dalinar to come down after meeting with the Stormfather. I also don’t think that we as the audience needed to see that scene of those two talking, it would give very little new information. Maybe if it was from Shallan’s POV we would have a bit more information about her feelings for Kaladin and that’s it. I think Kaladin’s fledgling feelings at that point for Shallan are pretty clear so it wouldn’t need to be from his POV. Brandon is very good at giving new information and in every scene. That’s what makes the re-reads so fun.
Another thing to keep in mind people is that Shallan wants her relationship with Adolin to work. She very clearly likes him. She might at first wanted a tie to Dalinar’s family but like she said Adolin was nice surprise. She likes him, is attracted to him and wants to make her relationship work with Adolin. Even if she feels an attraction to Kaladin, she doesn’t want him. You can be attracted to someone and not want to be in a relationship with them.
Lol, poor Kal! Out of the two out of three of his “romantic” possibilities in his life so far didn’t/don’t want him. Laral didn’t want him when he was younger (though think his parents probably care about that more than him) and Shallan doesn’t want him now. Actually, if you are with me on Tarah calling off the relationship three out of three didn’t want him. Poor Kaladin. He really isn’t doing well on the romance front. It’s okay Kal, Syl still loves you.
Re: Hoid
Gepeto, I think 102 is talking about when Adolin warns off Hoid after the hug. I also think Hoid knows that Kal isn’t going to flirt with Shallan, thus giving the advice that he should flirt with Shallan. He’s contrary like that. I don’t think Hoid gave a care one way or another. It wasn’t to advance Kaladin or denigrate Adolin’s chances with Shallan. It was just to throw a spark and see if it catches anything on fire. Still not a nice thing to do but then again Hoid isn’t really a nice person.
@104
To bad Hoid didn’t get a chance to tease Shallan, that would have fit with his behavior towards Radiants and proto-Radiants. But I like that Shallan got the better of him by giving him a hug.
Hoid’s motives to want to nurture the KRs is kinda worrying, actually. Because he’s said it himself; if he has to watch the world burn to get his goals he’d do it. So him mentoring Kaladin and encouraging Shallan and being around when Jasnah comes back might not be a good thing. Right now his goals and the KR align but when happens when they don’t? He’s a worrying figure because people in power like Adolin dismiss him and encourage others to dismiss him. “Wit does that bridgeboy. Don’t worry about it.” (Paraphrasing.) Well I suppose at least Hoid has the decency to be interesting and tell good stories. If he’s going also be worrying and mysterious, that’s the least he could do.
@107: You make essentially the same point I made, but phrased differently. Shallan, at the end of WoR, clearly wants her relationship with Adolin to work. Whatever she may or may not be feeling for Kaladin is superseded by this desire. As for Kaladin, he clearly has no intention to make his feelings, if feelings they truly are (I am not convinced his current infatuation derives from true deep feelings), known.
I personally don’t feel sorry for Kaladin here. Laral was not a prospect, it was a lack of other suitable choices. Besides, Laral did not technically rejected him: she just couldn’t marry a darkeye. Tarah seemed more promising, but Kaladin lets one he screwed it. Perhaps she’ll come back, who knows? That being said, I think Kaladin, right now, is not boyfriend material. He’d be a rather poor one which is why I don’t wish for him to engage into any relationship. I don’t get he is being rejected by Shallan either: they don’t have a relationship or anything. If I have a crush on someone, I don’t say anything, I don’t do anything, then I am not rejected. I am simply not in the game, on purpose. This is how I see it.
It is more Adolin I am worried about. He got kicked out so many unions, is he going to blow this one up the second it starts not being perfect? If Shallan ever becomes distracted, is he going to automatically think she wants to end it? Because, they all do, eventually…
As for Hoid… Storms I hate Hoid. I get he just wants to throw a spark and see if it catches fire, but why do it at Adolin’s expense? He is basically the only lighteye who actually likes him and laughs of his jokes! As for Adolin’s comment, he can’t know Wit is important to anything. For him, Wit is Wit, an employee of the king and nothing more. Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin know he is more than that, but not Adolin because Wit has no interest in him, he does not nuture him. He does not seem as vindicative with him as with other lighteyes, but that’s probably because Adolin is not too prideful he can’t take a joke. Therefore his comment can’t be taken as dismissive.
Re: Hoid – One of his goals seems to be the containment or elimination of Odium. The way I read it, he’ll do what he can to help the Radiants, as long as things are moving toward that purpose. If he can help to strengthen the defenders of Roshar so that they can either defeat or re-imprison Odium, he’ll do that with all his heart. But if they lose and the only way to contain Odium is to let Roshar burn, he’ll do that too. He’ll be sad about it, but he’ll do it.
Odium has already splintered three Shards; Hoid is actively opposing his intent to splinter the remaining twelve. Though I’ll readily acknowledge that I don’t know what his other goals are, I can’t see that opposition as a bad thing, personally. YMMV.
@108
Laral was never right for Kal. While everyone else expected them to wind up together, I don’t think she was ever interested in marrying a darkeye surgeon of the second nahn and if Kal ever stopped to think about it, he probably wouldn’t have been interested either. But he was young and didn’t think. Much of his younger life was trying to do what was expected of him, while at the same time doing what he really wanted to and failing to find a balance between two. How things ended with Tarah is probably Kal’s own fault. You’re right he can’t really be rejected in a the full since of the word because he isn’t putting himself out there to Shallan but I’m just talking in abstract because Shallan isn’t interested in any case. The point is more Kaladin should not be looked to for relationship advice. Adolin remember that for next time. Kaladin is a hot mess when it comes to romance/relationships and can’t actually help you with useful advice.
It’s possible that Kaladin’s never even been “in the game” as you put it. He never put himself out there with regards to Laral. Tarah was the instigator for their relationship. And he currently isn’t putting himself out there for Shallan. Kaladin probably know as much about relationship as Jon Snow. You know nothing Kaladin Stormblessed.
@109
I wonder if Shards (like Honor) can be reforged….
Are the Shards that splintered now a part of Odium or are they like the broken spren?
I also wonder if Hoid would be okay with the splintering of Odium….
They aren’t part of Odium. He chose to splinter them instead of picking them up when he killed their Shardholders. According to WoB, Odium realizes that when you pick up a Shard, it influences who you are, and he doesn’t want any other influences.
Just skimming through the last 20 comments or so I have one point to bring up. I admittedly tend to skip over the young Kaladin entries when rereading so I’m accessing the more faulty areas of my memory for this. I’ve noticed a few comments about Laral saying that she tried to get rid of Kaladin by suggesting he join the army, my take on this was that she wasn’t trying to get rid of him but was being sincere about him gaining glory and Shards then coming back to her, more of a young girls romantic ideal. Later of course she changes due to Roshone and Rillir’s influence but as other commentor’s have mentioned this is probably due to lacking any safe harbor of her own.
I’m not suggesting this makes for a good or bad shipping situation I’m just playing devil’s advocate about interpretations of her trying to get rid of Kaladin. That all said, it could just be my terrible memory ghosting me.
The current Tor browser is giving me some serious problems. Sometimes I get timed out without having my post accepted. At other times the connection the posting is completed but the writing is sooo slow and frustrating waiting for the input to appear on screen. I just lost an extensive posting that I have no interest in repeating. I reregistered with Tor so that perhaps I can avoid some of these problems. I recall others complaining about connectivity problems so that they should be addressed.
Consider this a cranky comment. Of all the comments, I found @104 ante’s short comments to be the most interesting. Ante concludes Hoid’s incomplete response to Shallan’s exclamation, “You” (the 3rd such exclamation upon seeing Hoid), “Perhaps I need to wear _____” – a veil (ante). That is a hitherto unexpected and meaningful thought that fits beautifully with Hoid’s informative teasing of Kaladin with,” I wouldn’t want you to go off flying on me” (as ante noted). While Kaladin immediately picked up on the hint, “What do know?”, Shallan might have been very upset at the implied reference to her secret 2nd self and association with Jasnah’s slayers. Perhaps that is why Hoid never completed the sentence (besides Shallan’s bear hug).
I find it interesting that some readers express a distaste for Kaladin and Hoid – my two favorite characters (besides Syl). Kaladin is not a “bad boy” nor is Hoid a “hateful” character. The former has protecting and saving others – if not the world as his life’s mission, while the latter aims at saving the Cosmere from the malevolent superpower, Odium.
@112
I didn’t mean to suggest that Laral was just trying to just get rid of Kaladin when she pushed him to go off to war. I actually think that for was about Kaladin being able to gain glory and possibly become a lighteyes. Laral wants Kaladin to become a lighteyes, she might have been okay marrying him had her father not died but would prefer if he was lighteyed. If Kaladin goes off to war and wins a Shardblade he becomes a lighteyes, that way everyone is happy. At least in Laral’s mind.
@113
That’s happened to me as well before. I found that if I’m typing a long reply. I’ll copy and finish it in a word document and then when I’m finished I’ll copy it back into the comment box. That way if I tor.com eats my comment, I can just try again. Nothings more annoying/depressing than writing something just to have lost to void because of a glitch.
ante @104 / stblst @113
I agree that it is a very cool, and likely correct interpretation – which didn’t occur to me. Thanks for posting it ante.
@@@@@104
The veil comment is quite witty (Pun intended)! It really tickled my funny bone.
@@@@@ the laral discussion
I don’t think that she is EVIL just….somewhat self centered. She did what she did because of life. But at the same time she didn’t 100% treat Kaladin as an equal (which is also to be expected). I just think it would be interesting to see her reaction when he comes back and she finds that (what I assumed to be) her childhood plan/dream is in fact quite possible/has happened.
And a thought: If living shardblades can change form….would Kaladin also use a non-standard shardplate if they can change shape/form while living? I assume that they will because of the Dalinar-vision where the Radiant’s helmet kept disappearing/reappearing and he was like: “WHEN IS SHE TAKING/PUTTING ON HER HELMET???????” Rereading that did give me a chuckle.
@117
There is so much I’m looking forward too in the next book and Kaladin and Laral meeting is one of them as well. Though I’m more excited about Kaladin and Jasnah meeting. I seriously want them to meet up.
I don’t know if shardplate is alive the way shardblades are alive. I mean Kaladin has touched shardplate before and the plate doesn’t scream. And Renarin can wear his shardplate around with no problem but he filches when he touches the dead shardblades. I wonder if shardplate is made out of the more mindless spren and how they behave is tied to higher spren like Syl or Pattern? So when Kaladin gains his armor, it’ll be made out of wind spren who are directed by Syl, maybe?
I’m actually somewhat scared of a meeting between Jasnah and Kaladin. I don’t know why, but I just get this odd feeling that they wouldn’t mesh well. I mean, sure Kal is a bit abrasive, but he got over it with the Kholins and Shallan. But Jasnah is… not forgiving. And she is the type of woman who, “Don’t take no guff from nobawdy”. I don’t know, maybe it’s just me.
@110: I think you are selling Kaladin a bit short here… He did give Adolin a very sound advice: “Dude, just tell her how you feel.”.
There.
Adolin, women are not some bizarre creatures from another planet which requires a complicated set of circumstances to find interest in you. They don’t need you to transform your last courtship into a tragic love story for them to find you desirable. They also don’t need you to buy them expensive gifts, in fact, they may take it badly. They are not items to be bought, try not to make them feel as if they were a mere piece of jewelry you can buy simply because you are rich. You are over-complicating it. Women are just human beings and they tend to respond very well to honesty. You are a honest man, when it comes to everything else but your feelings.
So take Kaladin’s advice and speak, truthfully. Tell her you don’t want to lose her. Open up your heart, you may be surprised in what you’ll find. The simplest solution usually works best.
Therefore, I’d say Kaladin is better equipped than Adolin to deal with courtship. At least, HE has understand as much.
As for Laral, we should all be careful. A marriage between a darkeye of the 2nd nahn and a lighteye of lesser rank do not happen very often. Lirin is overstepping his station by thinking Kaladin could marry Laral. She ranks too high for him and she knows it, but she likes him, in a way. It feels to me as if Laral would have rather married her childhood friend as opposed to some stranger, but Kaladin is too low born. It is why, I believe she urged him to join the war and win a Blade, so he could be high rank enough to marry her. It was extremely naive: Blades are almost never won through warfare and there were so few darkeyes managing to pull it of, history remembers their names. The probability of Kaladin winning himself a Blade by becoming a soldier was impossibly low. Laral was daydreaming here: she had to know this. I did not read Laral as a girl who did not think Kaladin was good enough for her, but as a girl who saw the impossibility in marrying the boy she wanted because society would frown on their union.
As for Kaladin, I do not dislike Kaladin: I am annoyed by him. I am annoyed so much of the story is focused on him, a fact that did not bother me when I first read the book, but does bother me now, after spending a year and half dissecting it. Somewhere in between now and then, I got tired of the reluctant under-dog hero who always kick everyone asses with limited training. It is not Kaladin’s fault, it is mine, really. However, I do have hopes Brandon will take his story somewhere else next book.
As for Hoid, I just think he is over-rated on an average basis. He is obnoxious, purposefully vague and plain mean to Adolin (in this chapter) who did not deserve it. As others point it out, he has his agenda, so if he needs to stampede on everyone to get it done, he will. I have little respect for such individuals who are unable to take empathy into consideration. It is a lack of creativity to not try for the solution that would yield the optimum result while protecting those you can. Hoid did not have to encourage Kaladin to flirt with Shallan. It would have changed nothing in the outcome of the story, but it highlighted how despicable he is. If you can’t be nice to those who are nice to you, then you are not a worthy person. Sorry for all Hoid fans.
@120
Yes, I’ll agree with you that Laral was extremely naive thinking that Kaladin could win a Shardblade in battle but I’m going to disagree with you that Laral saw it as an impossibility that she and Kaladin could marry. The biggest hurdle against their union would have been Wistiow, her father. Wistiow and Lirin were friends and from everything that we’ve seen Wistiow respected Lirin and considered the man a close friend. He was not presented as man like Shallan’s father who would have looked down on the marriage. We have no reason to think that he didn’t think that Kaladin would have good son-in-law. Also remember Kaladin is not low-born for a darkeyes. Yes he’ll never equal a lighteyes in rank but he’s what would be considered “important” for darkeyes.
As for Laral preferring to marry Kaladin to others, that could be read either way in my opinion because while Laral would have the option to think of Kaladin and others suitors (while her father was alive) we only see her in relationship to Kaladin. They are still too young to really consider marriages at when Kaladin getting a Shardblade is brought up. Laral encourages Kaladin to go war and win a Shardblade before we see any hint of there being impediments to a perspective union. When Kaladin gets into a fight with the other boys Laral, shows disappointment that Kal can’t fight. And doesn’t go to him when he loses in either support, encouragement, or to comfort a friend who just lost his first fight. I would think that if she actually wanted Kaladin to eventually learn how to gain and shardblade and become a lighteyes she would show some support and encouragement. Instead she turns her back on him.
When her father dies Kaladin was no longer an option for her and they only interact once. Laral tries very hard not to look at Kal during that interaction. I read her actions in that scene as embarrassment, she didn’t like that Kaladin called on her to support him. Then after Rilliar dies Laral continues to keep her distance from Kal. Personally, I think that she somewhat blamed Kaladin and his family for Rilliar’s death, she never once looks up once to try to catch her childhood friends eye. She knows what Tein means to Kaladin. It would be a show of emotional support to Kaladin and his family to just look at them but she doesn’t. Though there other interpretations of Laral’s actions that are equally valid. My opinion of Laral is formed on re-reads and when I first read the books I also thought that she would have preferred Kaladin but I don’t think that anymore.
@119
I’ve been waiting for them to meet since book one! Yes they both are strong personalities but that’s part of why I want to see what happens when they meet. Also I already started one shipping war with my desire to see Jasnah/Kaladin as a pairing. Though I realize it’s probably not going to happen. I vaguely suspect that Sanderson’s plans for Jasnah don’t include pairings.
@120
I got distracted earlier with comments about Laral. There were one other thing I wanted comment on.
Kaladin might give good advice but giving advice and following your own advice can be different things. We’ll see once Kaladin actually winds up in a relationship if he’s actually able to navigate once his own feelings are on the line.
@107 kei_rin and others: I always feel awkward responding really late when the conversation has moved past, but this is the first time I’ve had the time to comment. Sorry if this feels like I’m bringing back something done and dealt with.
I don’t think Kaladin and Shallan had that conversation yet, for a couple reasons. The first one is that scene where we find out they were waiting for Dalinar in the same room. Specifically, Kaladin was looking at one pillar while Shallan rounded a completely different one. Now this doesn’t preclude them from having talked (they could have chatted and then gone to inspect the pillars), but the main reason why I don’t think they talked was because. Well. That would be more emotionally healthy than I expect from them to have done so. Both Kaladin and Shallan have major problems when it comes to confronting something they don’t want to confront, and although I don’t think this is a huge conversation, I think it’s more than awkward enough that they probably wouldn’t have talked. Plus, it’s much easier for them to ignore their attraction for one another when the only time they talk is with other people (YMMV for if they feel that of course – I feel it’s pretty clear they have nascent feelings for one another by the end and have decided to ignore those feelings in the hope they go away, but plenty of people think they have already passed). I do understand if a lot of people don’t want that because it’s another case of miscommunication/lack of communication, but Shallan and Kaladin both have these bad habits of ignoring stuff they want to ignore even when it’s not good for them overall.
As for seeing Laral again, it’ll be interesting just to see how much she’s changed (or not changed) – Kaladin is coming home a very changed man so either way he’ll be shocked I think.
Kei_rin @122, you and I must be in a very small group of fans shipping Jasnah-Kaladin. Most fans seem to want to condemn Jasnah to a loveless life, with only dry ambition and duty as her lot in life, but I still have hope that Brandon would be kinder to her. She was my favorite character in tWoK.
@121: Kaladin may rank high for a darkeye, there is still a world between him and Laral. It is not Kaladin is not good son-in-law material, it is his eyes are not the right color. Whereas high ranked darkeyes occasionally marry into low ranked lighteyes families, Kaladin is not one of such. He is poor. From Shallan’s POV, we have seen the high ranked citizens: they are rich, richer than many impoverish lighteyes. These are the ones being able to call onto a lighteyed family, not the penniless son of a small town surgeon who’s only future depends on the generosity of his future in-laws. All in all, the Kaladin/Laral union seemed to have thrived mostly from Lirin’s wild hope.
As for how Wistiow considers Lirin, we do not know. We are only privy to Lirin who likes to believe Wistiow would have married Laral to Kaladin and would have paid for his son’s schooling. However, he left no such will. Lirin claims he would have done so, should have done so. Who to believe?
Laral is sure not perfect. I do not know why she did not offer more support when Kal lost. It could be she wished for a brilliant soldier as a husband and thought by losing Kal was breaking that image, though I still think her desire to have him win a Blade is linked to the increased rank it would give him. He would become a lighteye and hence a suitable.
When Wistiow dies, there is not reason to entertain the relationship. Laral knows she will never be allowed to marry Kaladin. It is off the table, worst her relationship with him makes her look bad in front of her next potential suitor: Rillir. Also, we do not know Rillir. It could be he was a nice guy.
As for Kaladin’s advice, well the fact he is able to think of a suitable advice is already good sign. If we recall properly, Kaladin starts by thinking back to his mistakes with Tarah and identifies them as him not talking. He thus tell Adolin to do what he failed to do. However, will Kaladin be able to apply his own counsel in a future relationship? Only future will tell, but I put him on a more advanced scale than Adolin when it comes to the whole relationship business.
@123: I do not believe I am currently given sufficient background to determine if Shallan and Kaladin truly have feelings for each other. What we have is not strong enough nor elaborate enough for me to call is “love” or “infatuation”. Showing interest into another person does not mean you are going to be interested into going romantic with them. Kaladin and Shallan have yet to interact on a normal basis, in normal circumstances for me to start calling them an “item”.
However, I feel that if their feelings were this strong, they would have create an occasion to talk, but I may be projecting other people into them.
@124: There are a lot of people who ships Kaladin and Jasnah. However, I disagree with your statement that without a love interest, Jasnah is having a loveless life with dry ambitions. Not every women need a man in their life to be happy and I do not believe Jasnah happiness passes with a romantic relation.
It could be she has chosen purposefully this life. It could be she does not want to be in a relationship. It is not I condemn to a boring life, it is I prefer if she has chosen to remain single. Simply because her dedication to her work is sufficient.
@@@@@ 124 Alisonwonderland
You do realize that millions of people the world over–both male and female–choose to remain single? We do not consider ourselves “condemned” or our lives “poor and dusty.”
I’m not saying marriage or romantic relationships are bad. They’re a truly wonderful thing that can enrich the lives of both spouses and indeed are a cornerstone of civilization. But anyone who relies on a romantic relationship to somehow “complete” them or “define who they are” is buying into a horrible lie. And that belief can only cause resentment because it puts unfair and unrealistic pressure on both spouses to somehow be perfect.
Jasnah is a fanatically dedicated, globe-trotting scholar, and she seems about as interested in romance as the average small child is in brussel sprouts. Kaladin is a body guard and a solider.
Both are more than punch clock workers in their careers. Those roles are fundamentally a part of who they are at their most basic levels ( and both careers have notoriously high divorce rates among those who marry at all).
Of the two, Kaladin is the one more likely to eventually become romantically involved with someone. However, for him to have a relationship work long-term, he would have to change a number of core aspects of his personality. And not all of those changes would necessarily be “for the better.”
Ship whoever you want. That’s part of being a fan if you enjoy that sort of thing. But neither one needs a relationship to complete them.
As far as my opinion goes though: the only thing that might blow up in their faces worse than trying to have a relationship, is trying to have one with each other. Even brushing aside their age differences, they would both be unable to make the other one as high a priority in their lives as they would need to be in order to make the relationship work.
I don’t even think they would end up fighting or hating each other. It would be worse. They would just plain be strangers.
@126: Not that I wish to throw oil onto the fire or to demolish your solid argumentation, but… my son actually loves brussel sprouts…… and brocoli. Lot’s of brocoli. I should buy a brocoli farm :-O
For the rest, I wholeheartedly agree. Your text echos my own, but in a much more eloquent manner. I would add that we should be careful to not project ourselves into others. Simply because we, as individuals, cannot imagine our life without a spouse (and potentially children) does not mean everyone shares this opinion.
I do wish for Jasnah to be happy. However, I do not think her happiness passes throw romantic relationship. She has made it clear she was not willing to compromise and unions are all about compromises.
I believe Kaladin is just the same which is another reason I don’t want him with Shallan. His work will always pass first, unless he is willing to change his entire ethic which I am not foreseeing in a predictable future. I agree he does not need a partner to evolve as a character, though it is likely he’ll get one, at some point.
I also do not think they would be attracted to each other. They live in worlds so different, I doubt they’d be able to meet in the middle.
@123 Fenrir Moridin
You bring up good points. I forgot that they weren’t actually near each other at the time that Dalinar entered the room. I feel like if they don’t talk about it at that time they probably won’t talk about it. As you said they both have avoidance tendencies at times.
@125
I think the point that we disagree on is whether or not Kaladin could have married Laral. I think he could have. Rank and riches are not necessarily two things that have to go hand in hand. Often times yes those two go together but not always. Lirin purposely chooses not to take money for his work and the town and Highlord supported him and his family. Kaladin never really knew his family was poor until Roshone started to attack them. It’s been said that high ranking darkeyes can marry into lower ranking lighteyed family. I can’t find what Dahn Wistiow and Laral are so it’s possible that you are right and they are too high or it’s possible that they are of a rank that is low enough that Kaladin could have married into the family.
I do think that all of it was wished for more on the side of Kaladin’s parents more than anyone else. We don’t know but I would think that if Laral wanted to marry Kaladin Wistiow wouldn’t have said no. Maybe when she was younger Laral thought of marrying Kaladin but I think that fancy left her before he father died. And I don’t think she was ever serious about it.
@125 in response to the comments to @123
Actually I think it makes sense for Shallan and Kaladin to avoid talking to each other if they have feelings for each other. Like we said Shallan is determined to make it work with Adolin she doesn’t need Kaladin coming in potentially messing things up for her by bring out feelings for him that she’d rather not have. And then for Kaladin, he’s actually admitted that he likes and respects Adolin. He might just be following the bro code here and not going after another person’s girl. I could believe that they both go into avoidance mode so that it doesn’t become an issues.
@124
Aside from you, I’ve really only heard one other person who actually ships Jasnah/Kaladin. And I mean in a semi-serious “I could see a possible relationship between these two characters working” kinda of way, as opposed to “cougar relationships are hot” kind of way. I get a lot of weird looks and sometimes shouted down for this ship. Yeah, we’re in a pretty small dingy compared to the giant battle cruisers that are Shallan/Adolin and Kaladin/Shallan. Hell even my other ship of Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin is bigger than what I’ve seen of Jasnah/Kaladin. Add to that what seems like a majority of readers whose idea of Jasnah preclude any relationship that isn’t strictly platonic. We’re surrounded. We might not be alone but it sure feels like it sometimes.
Often I get the feeling that people think that I’m devaluing Jasnah’s independent spirt because I like her with Kaladin. But that not the case. I like her with Kaladin because I think that he would be someone who can respect her independence without crowding her. I think that Kaladin has the capacity to be someone who even values that in a partner.
Then there is the fact that often relationship means romantic relationship and Jasnah isn’t romantic. That’s fine. Jasnah doesn’t need to be romantic to be in a relationship. Neither does Kaladin for that matter. Not all people value romance. Love does not have to always be a romantic love. It would disingenuous to the character to have them be all touchy feely kiss faces (doubly true for Jasnah’s character). But it is possible to love someone and not be romantic with them. This is actually how I see Kaladin and Jasnah’s possible relationship. I see them as supporting each other endeavors. Caring and loving each other without being romantic about it.
I also don’t think that any possible relationship between them would follow the template of the types of relationship you see between characters like Shallan and Adolin. If Jasnah and Kaladin happened it would not follow the traditional lines of romance. I don’t think that attraction/infatuation is going to big role for their relationship. I would imagine if anything happened between them it would a slow build. One that takes years and multiple books to bring towards fruition. Based more on mutual respect, admiration, and eventually friendship and caring. (More like Tom and Moiraine and less like Matt and Suan to give ‘Wheel of Time’ analogies). I’m not even sure that if they became a couple if would even ever get married. Jasnah isn’t the marrying type. They might but only for political reasons if they did so.
As for “right now” Kaladin isn’t ready for any relationship, he’s still got so much to work through for himself. And Jasnah has other issues to deal right now that much more important to her (and the world). But what I do want to see is them interacting. Right now I’m basing everything on how I view their personalities as separate people. If Jasnah and Kaladin meet up in book three and start interacting by just barely civilly tolerating each other or it becomes clear that they aren’t going to interact much in the series because they are never around each other; I might just have to sigh and leave this ship in the safe harbor of fandom. Which I wouldn’t be surprised if I had to do.
Assuming that Jasnah and Kaladin both make it to the end of the series, I’ll be just as happy for them to not be together as I would be if they were together. I really just want them to alive and happy. If things end up where the only women by Kal’s side is Syl and the only man by Jasnah is Ivory, I’m happy as long as they are happy.
Also no one can condemn Jasnah Kholin to anything. Jasnah will be exactly where she wants to be and with whoever she wants to be with. :)
@125 Gepeto: Fair enough, agree to disagree on that as I think they do but both positions are valid imo! I don’t think any feelings they would have for each other would be precluded by how they won’t let it progress further. They both give priority to Shallan and Adolin’s relationship because well it’s just much simpler isn’t it, Kaladin and Shallan can just do their own thing and Adolin will be happy. It’s easier than confronting any feelings and asking questions, even if it’s emotionally unhealthy in the long term.
As for Jasnah and Kaladin, it’s a shame it’s delayed getting to see them interact because of Kaladin flying off, although with Jasnah’s access to Transportation it’s possible she could end up meeting Kaladin before he returns (maybe she goes to help evacuate Kholinar and meets Kaladin there?). I feel like, while abrasive, both Kaladin and Jasnah have enough of a no-nonsense attitude that they could get a working relationship going to get things done. But similar to how we didn’t get to see any spren interact, I was disappointed we missed out on Jasnah interacting with other important characters…more to look forward to in book 3!
Edit: @128 kei_rin: Really nice comment. Just thought I’d say, that last bit gave me the mental image of Sanderson about to write Jasnah one way, and then her Shardblade comes out of the screen so he writes it another! XD Silly, yes, but I get the feeling Jasnah might be in that same boat as Kelsier when she has her own little force inside Sanderson’s head.
There were studies that showed that you are in an exciting situation with someone you tend to interpret that as being excited about the other person. That is how I interpret the “attraction” between Kaladin and Shallan in the chasm scene. When they are no longer in danger together, that excitement doesn’t last.
@128: Yes it does seem as if we disagree. I believe we are forgetting how segregated Alethi society is. Lighteyes and darkeyes do not mingle and for a lighteye to marry his only daughter to the poor surgeon’s son is a huge gamble. Not to mention it breaks tradition. Lighteyes seek alliances when they marry their youngs, unless they are out of favor.
As for Laral, she does not get to choose. What she wants is irrelevant: her father will marry her to who he sees fit and it likely would not have been Kaladin, despite Lirin’s thoughts. Kaladin may be a citizen, but he is of the 2nd nahn, not the first. He is poor. He has nothing to bring to the table, no wealth, no name, no alliance. As for Wistiow, being a city lord, he is likely around the 5th dahn. Lighteyes of the 10th dahn are simple workers, no better than darkeyes. These are the one of a promising darkeye with enough wealth may hope to marry, not the daughter of a city lord, but this beside the point: Kaladin was not a good enough prospect to hope to marry within a ligheyed family.
It does struck to me as improbable Wistiow would have agreed to marry his only daughter to such a poor prospect. It is more likely he would have seek someone more suitable when the time comes.
The same goes for Kaladin and Shallan. I read a lot of people treating it as if it would be normal union, but it isn’t. Kaladin is a darkeyes slave who’s eyes turned blue for a few hours. Shallan is a lighteyes of medium rank. Kaladin is right in thinking he should not have thoughts about her, because she is out of his league. We may think it is stupid, but this is how their world works. Kaladin may be a Radiant, but whatever boost in society this gives him is yet to be seen. Just the slave mark on his forehead would pull of most people…
@129: We may agree to disagree. I personally think the “feelings” between Shallan and Kaladin were too forced to be genuine. Kaladin’s attraction is more awe to see someone who suffered, but managed not to be grumpy about it. I don’t see it as love, nor do I think it should evolve into it.
I do not believe they are in “denial” of their feelings for each other, they have hardly ever interact. You can’t love, truly love, someone when you have never spent more than a few moments while being into a life threatening situation. Remove the dire circumstances and they may very well be nothing left. Simply because Shallan compares Kaladin to Adolin does not mean she is lying about her feelings either. Girls do that. All the time. They see one man, they automatically start comparing to their current date: it does not mean they want to do anything about it. It is just normal.
I also do not think Shallan goes back to Adolin, hugs him after he is hurt simply to make him happy… She genuily seemed to want to do those things. Last I checked, she had no impulse to care for Kaladin.
@130: Yes, I do agree.
@131: Agree to disagree it is! Although you’re right, I somewhat misspoke: of course Shallan hugs Adolin etc. because she likes him too. I was speaking more in regard to why she would completely and totally disregard Kaladin afterward – it’s easier to do that and thus not endanger her relationship with Adolin at all.
I guess I’ll put it this way: for the same reasons you discount Kaladin and Shallan, I have issues with Adolin and Shallan’s relationship. They end up with what, maybe one month as a couple? Possibly two by the end? Either way, you have two young adults (Shallan especially is at the cusp of teenager/young woman), both very physically attracted to one another, in the period of their relationship where their brains are filled with the happy soup of positive neurotransmitter release. They’re adorable together, they’re just so smitten with each other! I need to see something more to even think there’s actual love there beyond infatuation (I guess I’m a bit of a cynic here).
@129
Thanks. I like your image of Jasnah informing Sanderson of how she will be written.
@130 and 131
I feel like we’re going type all these words all over again once part 4 happens and Kaladin and Shallan are making their way through the chasm and then again once they are in Urithiru.
Here is the thing I agree that whatever feelings of connection Kaladin and Shallan have for each other are probably directly the product of their time spent in the chasm together. If they didn’t get droped into the chasm they wouldn’t have been forced to interact. If they weren’t forced to interact with each other they wouldn’t have seen the other person as someone who is worthy of respect. If they can’t respect each other they can’t be friends.
It’s probably a good thing that they aren’t spending too much time together because it’s not real. Personally I think Kaladin got hit with the fake love stick a bit harder than Shallan. But I don’t think that Kaladin and Shallan know it’s not real. I think it’ll be good for when they actually interact again and realize that while yes, the other person is cool, they aren’t attracted to that person in a romantic sense. Or who knows maybe the next time they interact and we read on of the POVs that those pesky feelings are worst because they’ve been ignored. Who knows, only Sanderson as of right now.
Personally, I think they would make better friends then lovers but being through a situation that heightens a sense of connection and bonding for them in somewhat of a false manner. It shouldn’t be the bases of a romantic relationship between them but after a bit of time I think that could work really well as friends. But we’ll see as the series continues.
@132
Fenrir you are right that Adolin and Shallan are also in the happy in love stage of their relationship but I think they kinda get a bit of leg up because the characters in that relationship want it to work out. I think if both characters are actively trying to build that relationship and make it stronger doesn’t it have a better chance of surviving passed that soupy stage.
Especially compared to Kaladin and Shallan, they might be attracted to each other but circumstances are clearly not for them.
Granted that might just be the thing that people like about Kaladin/Shallan. A large number will root for the underdog. A possible Kaladin/Shallan relationship would have more hurtles to overcome and maybe that’s why people are attracted to it.
A couple of comments to stir the pot:
Re: Wistiow, Laral, Lirin, and Kaladin – Wistiow was apparently a rather kindly old man, with no family but his daughter. He didn’t have a princedom or family holdings to consider when arranging a marriage for his daughter. It’s entirely possible that he was more concerned for her comfort and security than her social status, and believed that would best be provided by marrying her to the (high-nahn) son of the town’s very respectable surgeon, especially since there were plans for that son to go to Kharbranth and become an even more highly respectable surgeon than his father. Just because most Alethi are very social-structure oriented doesn’t mean that Wistiow might not be the odd man out in that regard.
Knowing what we know now, if the plans Lirin & Hesana implied had come to pass before Wistiow died, Laral would have been safely married – and with all her own family wealth intact – to a highly-qualified surgeon, and would never have been forced to marry either Rillir or Roshone so they could have her money. Would that have been an awful fate? It’s quite possible that Wistiow was considering this marriage specifically to protect her from whomever might be chosen by the PTB to replace him, since he had no heir to take his place.
Re: Adolin and Shallan – By the end of the book, they first met about 47 days ago. Not quite a month by their time, about a month and a half by ours. The big difference is that they were already tentatively betrothed when they met, so they started out ahead of the game. All it takes is for them to decide they like each other well enough to take the next step and solidify the betrothal. I’m not saying this very well, but looking at it from our “first you date, then you get engaged, and then you get married” all predicated on “twu wuv”… well, that’s not entirely part of Alethi culture. You don’t have to be in love with someone to get married; in this situation, you just need to be reasonably confident that you won’t kill each other before you get that far. Being madly in love is a nice bonus.
(Come to think of it, that applies to the Laral question too. As long as they liked each other well enough to agree, there doesn’t need to be the kind of “chemistry” we expect based on our own cultural standards.)
@133 kei_rin: That’s actually the part that worries me: it feels like they’re already working on the relationship when they shouldn’t have to – imo they might be forcing it a bit. Or…no that’s not a good way of putting it because relationships are work. I think it’s more that they’re working on it in a superficial way since, especially in Shallan’s case, there are deeper aspects of herself she doesn’t want to approach so she doesn’t communicate properly. I don’t really want to get in it here, but the end of Part 4 is a big part of this, when Adolin mentions protecting Shallan and she tells him not to but doesn’t go into why at all (it’s traumatic and she doesn’t want to go into it which I sympathize with, but imo that was the time to open up to Adolin about it).
Of course that’s also juicy fodder for book 3 I suppose, right? So maybe instead of worrying I should let it excite me for the sequel…
@131: Fair enough. I guess we have similar issues, but with opposite ships. You feels you have not been given enough incentive to truly believe Adolin and Shallan could move past infatuation and hormones, while I feed I am not being given enough incentive to truly believe Kaladin and Shallan have true deep feelings for each other worthy to explore.
As for Shallan, what bugs me if the fact she does not have one single thought for Kaladin… It is not she simply chose Adolin, she does not even think about having to make a choice: she goes to him, spontaneously. Not once did her train of thoughts fell on Kaladin after they arrived in Urithiru, expect for that one time where she claims to be happy for him. I cannot say she is avoiding him when she has not even express the desire to talk to him or just to see him. She is not looking for his company and I don’t buy the argument she is in denial. Her whole attitude with Kaladin widely differs than her attitude towards the things she did deny: her father, her mother. In both cases, she blanked each time she tried to access to those memories until she is forced to do so. She is not exhibiting the same behavior when it comes to Kaladin which leads me to believe she has no romantic feelings for him or no desire to explore what romantic feelings for him would be.
The only argument Shallan may have romantic feelings from Kaladin comes from her line of thoughts while she is riding to the Plateau. She compares both men and has these thoughts while Adolin is talking to her. This is flimsy evidence as it does not mean anything. Comparing another man to your date does not mean you harbor feelings for him or that you wish to know what it would be like with him. It simply means… comparing. Besides, her whole behavior with Kaladin is not that of a young girl in love, while her behavior with Adolin speaks of a very attracted one.
As for Adolin and Shallan, yes they are very new to each other. Yes, they have not had the occasion to share their deepest secrets (which is the argument often brought forward to favor Kaladin/Shallan), but this is normal considering they have been dating for a few weeks. You don’t spill your guts out to your date so soon: the gamble is too high. Talking to Kaladin was unconsequential for Shallan, talking to Adolin is a much greater risk. She does not care what Kaladin thinks of her, but she does care what Adolin thinks. That being said, what convinced me is the fact they are able to spend time together, to tease each other, to laugh with each other and while Shallan does tend to act fake abound him, her mask usually drops sometime before the end of the date. Look at the menagerie date: she starts up playing a role, but the more the date advances, the more genuine she gets and by the end, she’s pretty much herself.
@133: I agree with most you are saying. As for the attraction of the Kaladin/Shallan ship, apart from my generational argument I previously used, I also believe many people naturally root for Kaladin. He is the main protagonist (for now, let’s see how that evolves), he is the underdog, a lot of readers will simply take his side, while Adolin is the rich prince whom we mostly see from Kaladin’s angry prejudice eyes. Adolin is the upper class, exactly the kind of individual medias are telling us we should hate, a feeling strongly emphasis by Kaladin. What little Adolin POV we have are not enough, for many readers, to completely offset that perspective. How many comments have I read, in the fandom, about Adolin simply being an arrogant jerk?
I guess it goes back to tropes… We are geered to root for Kaladin. The story is written in a very pro-Kaladin way. We are blalantly told by the author to wish for Kaladin to succeed.
However, my hope is to get more Adolin POV in book 3 so people could keep on changing their perspective of him. Additionally, my hope also is to get less Kaladin POV so people would stop being so biaised for him. Kaladin’s great, but I think the story is stronger if not all plot lines revolve around him.
For the Shipping Wars: This is our video.
Now to write more of the above comments.
I’d like to point out that any variation of Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin is still just beginning. There’s not a whole lot of usefulness in doing close readings to figure out how the relationships are going to work or not work. Not that I mean to imply it shouldn’t be done, I just think it’s a useful perspective.
@136 I think we’ve needed the time in Kaladin’s head so his less rational decisions make sense to the reader. Given how depression and trauma can distort a person’s perspective, giving readers that person’s point of view is the simplest way of making sure the reader understands why the person reacts the way they do. Kaladin’s arc in the two books is frustrating enough when we can see how he gets to the wrong decisions. Trying to figuring him out from the outside would be nigh unreadable.
That being said, I sincerely hope Kaladin’s recovery will be smoother now and we won’t need as much time in his head to understand him. Adolin, given how different he is from Kaladin, would make a refereshing change.
Laral:
Laral and Kaladin were the odd ducks in their little town. She was the only lighteye child. He was the highest ranking darkeye child. Knowing your father will probably marry you off to an unknown distant lighteye is pretty abstract thinking for most children.
They are from a world where a common fairytale is about the worthy darkeye man that goes off to war and wins a Shard. Thus becoming worthy of becoming a Lighteye and marrying the “princess.”
Sound familiar? It’s a common fairytale in our world too, with a few modifications. Harlequin has a whole formula based upon it. With a few variations.
Most little girls develop puppy love stories around their early loves. That was Laral’s suggestion to Kaladin. A little girl hoping to live a fairytale. Not evil, no more self-centered than the average privileged child. (Speaking as a mother of 2, and aunt of 18.)
Then her father died and real life intruded upon her. The fairytale was put aside.
Book 3:
I’m hoping to get Jasnah back into the main action. If she spends the whole book off on her own adventure, while Kaladin is off on his – it’s going to drive me nuts. The main WoT Characters never did join back together after book 3. So I would just like to see all the main KR interacting in one room – with their sprens – before the end of the book.
Braid_tug,
Tht video was so awesome, and so true! Thanks!
@140: LOL!!!
You are most welcome! :-D
@137
LOL!
I accept being up in crack ship space. I’ve lived there for much of my fandom life.
@136
You might get less Kaladin as things go on (I’ve talked about my thoughts on how the story structure is going to change before) but he’s still going to be a major player are the story unfolds.
I also agree with noblehunter here in that we needed that time with Kal. He might be more boring for you because he follows the underdog storyline trope but that doesn’t negate how interesting of a character he is for me. Personally, even when I’m frustrated with him I like the time that we spend with his storyline.
@139
Maybe I am being too hard on a young Laral. I still do feel sorry for her, she didn’t get handed a great set of cards to play when it comes to marriage prospects. Though I still think she and Rillir would have been the best match for both of them.
Jasnah!
Okay I have another wild hope: We know that end of this book Jasnah elscalled to the middle of nowhere in Alethkar. I’m seriously hoping the middle of nowhere was actually near Hearthstone. We know that everstorm is coming toward Heartstone and as Sanderson’s sneakpeak a while back we know that Kaladin doesn’t make to Hearthstone before that it hits. So what if Jasnah is in Hearthstone when the storm hits and she saves Kaladin’s family! Then afterwards when Kaladin arrives he meets Jasnah, verfies that yes is actually a Kholin and the princess and then travels with her to Urithiru.
Or what if after they meet Kaladin and Jasnah head over to Kholinar to deal with the uprising that is going on there.
@Braid_Tug: That was a great video to link, it does seem like the comments go crazy for shipping/romantic intrigue lol. Not sure if other people would like this, but personally I’ve seen that song before in an AMV someone did for it (AMV stands for Anime Music Video).
I actually have the hardest time with reading some of Shallan’s parts…but that’s my personal bias there: it squicks me out a bit to be in the head of someone who fuzzes their memories like that. I’d take Kaladin losing himself to depression over that any day.
@135: As Alice pointed out, Adolin and Shallan have known each other for 47 days. I personally do not think much of Shallan not talking to Adolin. What she has to share is horrible and knowing how much she wants the relationship to work, it also is a huge gamble. What if Adolin thinks less of her? She has everything to lose by sharing him and after a mere 47 days, she does not trust him enough.
As for Adolin’s comment about wanting to protect her: she over-reacted. She cannot fathom someone may want to protect a love one without locking them up. She does not know how to be loved, which is why I believe Adolin is better for her. With him, she’ll learn to let someone care for her, which should be part of her growth. I do not think she should have shared, they was just too much. What was she supposed to say? You know Adolin, my mother was assassinated and my father was a mean despicable man who licked my up for my safety all my life and you just reminded me of him? These are not easy things to say not to someone you hold dear. She does not want to lose him. Kaladin? She does not care about him. People keep bringing up the fact she told Kaladin to support their ship, but the fact she told Kaladin tells me exactly the opposite: she does not care enough about him to avoid sharing.
@138: I understand why we needed Kaladin’s perspective. However, I felt, after my rereads we have too many of those. The readers could have been conveyed the same sense of understanding with less Kaladin dedicated chapters. Also, having less Kaladin POV would have enable us to see him from other characters perspective. Right now, nearly each time Kaladin is grouped with someone, we have his POV. I can count on my fingers the number of time we have another character reflect on him, on talk about him, as they see him. Each time we have an event, we see it from his eyes… Even the duel is mainly shown from his perspective.
That’s what is bothering me. I felt the story would have been stronger if the other characters were more exploited, better used and Kaladin would have ended up a stronger character as well.
@142: It is true Kaladin has gotten boring for me. He follows such a classic trope, I have started to see him as predictable. I also got tired of reading the same tropes over and over again. I perfectly understand most people do disagree, but I cannot help wanting to read different perspectives.
The reread has also made me see how nearly all plots converges on Kaladin. On Thursday, we are going to read the duel scene. The duel was a built-up which started in chapter 25 when Jakamav rejected Adolin. It has been foreshadowed something bad would happen to Adolin and his so-called friends would be a the center. When the event finally arrived, it automatically gets stolen by Kaladin and it becomes a Kaladin driven issue. But WAIT? The dueIs were supposed to be centerd on Adolin, why does Kaladin gets to steal it all in the end? I wanted to know what happened to Adolin in the aftermath. His friends tried to kill him, that is massive and I don’t get closure on it? I have just read Kaladin rant and rant on lighteyes, on how they betrayed him, on how justify he was to detest him… The same thing just happened to Adolin, but worst as those trying to kill him as his friends and I get nothing? Wow. Instead, the whole scene served the only purpose to send Kaladin in prison such as to give him a reason to kill Elhokar. Re-Wow. So all the built-up I so keenly read in part 3 turned being about Kaladin. Again.
So you see, this is why I believe we had too many Kaladin’s POV. Not because I dislike him or I don’t appreciate his line of thoughts, but because I felt it centers the story too strongly on him. He is the under-dog, so everything has to be about him, which is why I dislike this trope. That’s where my frustration comes from. The duel, later on the chasm and the Elhokar fight which I thought was just too much.
@137 Braid_Tug
Wow. I- just wow.
@144 Gepeto
It’s funny that you get angry about Kaladin scene stealing from Adolin at the duel in a way because even the other primary characters call out Kaladin for that when he wreck’s Adolin’s opportunity to call out Sadeas.
I’m sure Kaladin will get pushed back quite a bit as the series progresses in much the same way Rand was in WoT. There just aren’t enough proto-radiants yet far enough along in their oaths–or not being stalked/killed by “Nalan” to give equal screen time to yet. For my part I’m still wondering when a few Renarin PoV’s will come our way.
While I agree with your sentiment to some extent, there might be a reason for the tighter focus on Kaladin right now.
I think Sanderson might be focusing primarily on his and Shallan’s growth so he can introduce more KR’s who are already at or near completion levels all at once later on.
Otherwise, we would have to watch the same growth repeated over and over and over again amongst characters for all 10 variants. It’s neat to see in a few, but it might get old and take away from real plot progression if he had to do it for everyone.
But that’s just my guess. It’s highly probable Sanderson has something else entirely in mind.
@145: You see that was the problem for me. The duels were supposed to be Adolin’s little special thing and all of a sudden it became the vehicle of Kaladin’s angst. I can understand the reason for it, but I don’t understand why it prevented me from getting closure on the whole thing. I don’t understand why I was not able to read both point-of-vue.
Since WoK we are being told Adolin is yearning to duel again, to be the king’s champion and now it finally happened, it felt like a deflated balloon. We learn in one single sentence that Relis was send home in disgrace, Adolin gets name king’s champion and that’s it. No more thoughts. No comments on Jakamav’s betrayal. It is as if it had never happened. The whole consecration of lighteyes were willing to sit idle and to watch Adolin being brutally crippled with Renarin as collateral damage and we don’t get a single word about it. Worst, Roion joins Dalinar and nobody talks of the fact he tried to have Adolin “punished” by allowing Jakamav to take part into the duel when we know he has never been authorized to wager his Plate before.
However, we get to read pages and pages of Kaladin brooding in prison. I supposed it was necessary to get the reasons why he decided to take it out on Elhokar: he was fed up, but still.
The problem I feel is Brandon started up something with a few characters. He made me like them, he made me root for them, but then he dropped me in the middle saying: “Got you!”. Back to the real deal now, but I kinda like the side deal you had going on, why stop now?
In essence, that’s why I am annoyed with Kaladin. I could write the same commentary for the chasm scene. Why am I not getting closure on Adolin being forced to let the girl he just admitted crushing on fall to her death? How come is it presented to me as if it were a no deal? If it were the reverse, we would have gotten a whole book section on Kaladin brooding over having failed…
A sfor Renarin, whereas I do agree with the sentient, I believe Brandon intended his reveal to come out as a surprise. Any POV would have ruined that. However, he did say there would be more Renarin in book 3, but I don’t know if that means specific POV or just more mentions of him overall.
Sorry to all for the angst…. I’ll admit I may be suffering from having spent too much time with this book, which makes me focus on its flaws.
Gepeto @144, 146: I’m sorry to say this, but if reading about Kaladin depresses you so, if you only want to read about Adolin, then I suspect you are not going to be happy with the Stormlight Archive going forward. My advice to you would be to drop out now, to save yourself further aggravation.
Gepeto @146 – Each of us is entitled to our own opinions, likes, dislikes, preferences, etc., and there’s nothing wrong with stating yours. Now I’m going to state mine: my mileage varies dramatically from yours.
So far, I’ve read 20 novels, 7 novellas, 1 novelette, and 3 short stories by Brandon Sanderson. (That’s if you treat each SA book as “a novel” rather than “five novels, two novellas, eight short stories, two prologues, and an epilogue” as he has been known to describe TWoK.)
You know what? He’s a way better storyteller than I am. He’s a way better storyteller than you are, too. He’s good at what he does. This is an epic epic fantasy, and not one of us here knows where he’s going with it. More importantly, it’s his epic story, to tell the way he thinks will best serve the story he’s writing. I’m content with that. More than content – I’m delighted to wait and see what he does with it. I categorically refuse to ruin my enjoyment by demanding that he turn aside and focus on someone who is, at this point, not the right character to drive the story where he wants it to go.
As I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but if you’re going to complain about how Brandon chooses to tell his stories, you’re not going to get a lot of sympathy from me. Just sayin’.
@Gepeto
Oh, I forgot/missed that information that Jakamav was in Roion’s camp, so it never occurred to me that they would even have to mention anything about that when Roion joined Dalinar. I wonder if Jakamav was a part of Roion’s family or just a vassal? Now I’m actually curious if he was there during the march and assault on Narak or if he was also sent home.
I’m probably going to say something that you’re not going to like, given that you don’t like the chasm sequence to start but I think Adolin and his feelings over Shallan “falling to her death” aren’t shown because it wouldn’t advance the story. We see Bridge 4 holding vigil because it’s something that breaks from what is expected. Dalinar would expect that Bridge 4 would be morning the death of their leader, instead they are waiting for him. Adolin has no reason to stand vigil for Shallan at the edge of warcamps. Seeing him morn Shallan’s death doesn’t give new information and actually might slow the story down. Seeing Bridge 4 does give Dalinar new information because he’s now curious as to why the Bridgemen would be so sure Kaladin is coming back. We do later when Shallan comes back get to hear form Adolin that he working in order to distract himself the fact that she was presumed dead. Not wanting to slow down the story is most likely the reason we don’t get to read the same scene from multiple view points as well. This book is already really long. For all we know Sanderson wrote those scenes you wanted but cut them in order to tighten the story.
I’m sure in the future Adolin will get the bigger role you want for him. He’s completely set up for it. I wonder if Shallan fans from book one felt the same way because it’s very similar. Shallan character was important but not focus of the book and I wonder if people were annoyed with it always pulling back to Kaladin back in book one. Personally I felt the opposite way, ever time the story went away from Kaladin, I was thinking “that’s nice but what’s happening with Kal and Bridge 4 and when will they meet Dalinar”. Adolin’s set up similar to how Shallan was set up back in book one. His storyline is just starting, I’m sure that Sanderson will show us how it connects to larger story soon.
I think another reason Sanderson focus so much on Kaladin is because Kaladin has moved up and down in Alethi society and can show us more of the idiosyncrasies because he notices them. He notes how he would be treated differently in situations based on what Alethi society thinks. It’s easier for the author to show this threw Kaladin who due to his life is going to notice these things as opposed to Adolin who might think of them as normal and might not comment on them even to himself.
Edit:
You know if you really want to see those scenes that aren’t in the book, why don’t you plot them out for yourself? Fanfic gets a bad rap as that area of fandom that’s for those crazy shippers who can’t deal with canon but there is plenty of fic that just deal with writing in those “missing” scenes like the ones you are talking about. Meta discussion of canon isn’t the only way to interact with fandom media.
The story that author wanted to write to is written. Maybe in the future he’ll write flashbacks of those scenes, maybe he won’t. Either you content yourself with that or based off what you know of Adolin and Jakamav plot out what you think that scene would look like. You don’t have share it with anyone or even write it out really if you don’t want to but at least that way you have your own personal headcanon.
@145: Will, I hope you smiled after your initial reaction of “WT…?” :-D
It’s all for a bit of fun. I too believe that not everyone has to be paired off. Not every story is an Ark. Nor does that reflect reality. And yes, many people are happy single.
@146: Gepeto – in book 1 was more interested Shallan. She had a different story. Kaladin was the typical hero rises from ashes trope. So while I think his depression is accurately portrayed, I too get tired of reading it. After the chasm – specifically, after they return – I was upset about the lack of reaction we see from Adolin. I even wrote “That’s It?!” but will hold that until the right time.
But seeing the fight from inside Kaladin’s head in Chapter 57 was a good choice. We already saw Adolin process his emotions.
And as Alice points out in @148, Brandon is much better story teller than I am. He’s earned my trust. It’s his train, I just bought a ticket for the ride.
I’m wondering if Jakamav will come up again in SA 3. Like Lando Calrissian, he betrayed his friends, but turns out alright in the end.
@@@@@147
Thank you for your concern, but I’ll be the sole judge of what I should/would/want to read.
@@@@@148
Of course I am surely not as well-read as you Alice, which means my mere thoughts are to be taken with a grain of salt. Not all readers are equal and I sincerely know how low I rank in the overall hierarchy: trouble-maker, obssessive, complaining reader and depositary of the unpopular opinion. I am reminded of that every week at least once or twice, often more. I thus have the choice to either leave this conversation or endorse my role as a troll, though I never meant to be one. So fear not, I was not asking for anyone’s sympathy nor did it ever crossed my mind I would get any.
I simply wanted to highlight the fact the story heavily revolved around Kaladin which may have prompt many readers to automatically take his side in shipping conversations. I may have pushed the issue too far though and for this, I will apologize.
Fear not either, I was not asking for Brandon to re-write the book for my sole benefit. I simply thought one less Kaladin in prison chapter, one more Adolin to get closure on the duel and a few paragraphs following the assassination attempt would have been nice. That was all.
Of course, Brandon is a much better story teller than I will ever be (not that I carry such ambition) and I don’t presume to understand his grand master plan, but part of being a reader is to critic both positively and negatively the aspects we loved and those we loved less.
This week, I tackled an aspect of the book I was not overly found of. Next week, I plan on talking about Dalinar and Relis.
@@@@@#49: Jakamav is a land lord of the 3rd dahn under Roion’s household. Being a land lord implies, I believe, he is not related to Roion himself or if so, very distantly. I believe it means he is the head of his house, he owns lands and he has swore featlhy to Roion, acknowledging him as his Highprince.
I had also wondered how old he was to already be a land lord. I typically assume Adolin’s dueling friends are around his age, but I am not so sure anymore.
Due to the circumstances, I was baffled no further mention of him were being made, especially considering his house involvement in the denouement. Two or three sentences would have satisfy me. Really.
As for the chasm, I never said I wished to Adolin to stand guard or I wished to remove the Bridge 4 scene… I simply wished I had have one or two paragraphs following the aftermath. Dalinar POV would have worked as well, just something on what happened on the top. I know Brandon did not wish to tell this particular story, but I, as a mere reader, still egoistically wanted to know.
I have read commentaries of individuals complaining of the same thing for Shallan, but not many. She has never been, on average, the most popular character, especially after WoK. I have read commentaries stating there was too many Shallan’s POV in WOR. I have read others saying the same about Kaladin. I have read commentaries wishing there was more Jasnah and more Renarin. I have read commentaries saying there should have been more Szeth, less Eshonai or more Eshonai and less Szeth… I have read various comments from various passionate readers each with their own wish list and I have always felt people where entitled to express their thoughts on such matters.
I do love fanfiction (and I do read it), but I do not feel I have enough talent to convey any story into words. Sadly, there are not many fics based on Stormlight Archive and most deal with non-canon shipping which are not the stories I wish to read, though I’ll admit I have indeed read them all. Some, despite not being my personal cup of tea, were quite good.
@@@@@150:
I am glad I was not the only one who wanted more reaction from Adolin’s part.
I have also wondered about Jakamav. I had hoped his story line was not over. Perhaps book 3 will bring me the closure I wish I had.
@150
I like that line.
Re: Jakamav
I don’t think he’ll make a Lando like return. Lando felt bad about having to be put in a position to betray his friends. He wanted to redeem himself and basically had to be held at gun point before he betrayed his friends.
Jakamav is an a-hole. Granted I’m not in his head, so maybe he does/did feel bad about betraying Adolin like he did, maybe I’m being too hard on him. I just doubt it.
At the end of the fight Jakamav was still yelling at Adolin for not fighting him “properly” and that Adolin is “cheating” and grappling is for “cowards”. He may have been good enough to win a Blade against anyone else but instead he lost his plate to Adolin, was humiliated and also Kaladin had to threaten to kill him in order for Jakamav finally give up. He didn’t gracefully loose. He’s going to smarting over this defeat for a while probably. I wouldn’t be surprised if he cut Adolin off completely in a social sense. Which he had kinda already did before the fight with that whole “lets not be seen together in public thing”.
If Jakamav had been a friend, the least he could have done is warn Adolin that he would have been fighting him with Relis and their is going be more than just him and Relis in the ring. I think Adolin would have understood that. Not liked it but understood it. Letting Adolin know could have also given Jakamav a chance at a Blade, if he had come to Adolin and offered to be on his side of the fight. But Jakamav isn’t a friend and preferred what looked like a safer way to get a Blade of ganging up on a person to “punish” them. I highly doubt anyone held Jakamav at sword point to get him to fight Adolin.
The only thing that would be different after the fight, I would hope, is that Adolin not be as hurt over the social fall out. After a betrayal from a “friend” like that I don’t think Adolin would be eager to socially interact with him.
@@@@@ 150 Braid_Tug
Oh the video you linked was hilarious no doubt about it. We are all fans here. We all have something we obsess over to one extent or another.
It’s hard not to appreciate something that pegs fan-culture so perfectly. I am however somewhat annoyed at myself because I allowed that video to springboard me into a subsequent cascade link hop through several other videos from notliterally. They apparently do a lot of parodies that are quite funny, but that’s 45 minutes of my life I can never get back..
@153: oh yes. I lost lots of time to them. Yes, all their stuff is great. Sadly the company imploded, so no new videos will be coming from them. :-(
@152: Thanks. My son has been in a Thomas the train kick for 3 years. So trains are often in my thoughts.
Edit: Adding
Regarding Readership:
In a no way encompassing polling of Brandon’s readership – the membership of the Storm Cellar FB page is almost 50/50 male / female. Current numbers are 59/47.
And most seem to be in the 25+ age group. But that is me guessing at a few people’s genders & most ages.