Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 39 of A Dance With Dragons, in which we cover Chapter 66 (“Tyrion”) and Chapter 67 (“The Kingbreaker”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 66: Tyrion
What Happens
In Brown Ben Plumm’s tent, Tyrion signs paper after paper promising largish sums of money to various members of the Second Sons, and vast sums of money to Plumm himself and his senior officers, as well as a promise of a title and lands to Plumm. Tyrion pretends to be disgruntled about this, but privately is gleeful, reflecting that he’ll either regain Casterly Rock and be able to make good on his debts, or die trying, so it works out either way. Plumm tells Tyrion he’ll be working with Inkpots (the paymaster), and warns him to stay out of the public eye as much as possible. They have him sign the roster (Tyrion adds a drop of blood to the ink for verisimilitude) to join the company.
He goes to collect Penny, who has not been speaking to him for leaving her dog and pig behind when they escaped. She looks pale, and Tyrion worries that she might be coming down with flux. He lies to her that the dog and pig are surely fine, and takes her with him to find armor. He reminisces with Kem, the man who leads them there, about living in King’s Landing. The smith (Hammer) and his apprentice (Nail) give them free run of the “armory,” such as it is. Jorah joins them, and Tyrion reflects that he doesn’t look like a slave anymore, but he doesn’t look like who he used to be either, with the demon brand on his cheek.
Penny doesn’t understand why she needs armor, and most of the stuff there is either in too bad condition or is too heavy for either of them. Tyrion finds a dirk for himself and a sword for her, but she doesn’t want it, and begins talking of how she dreamed her brother was still alive and they were jousting together, and Tyrion slaps her and tells her the mummer show is over. Penny says they should never have left Yezzan, that they were treated well there. Tyrion privately concedes that she has a point, and reflects that all Penny wants is someone to be her master and tell her what to do, but lies to her that all Yezzan’s slaves have succumbed to the pale mare by now. He promises that he will sell her to a nice Yunkishman after this is over if that’s what she wants, but they have to survive the siege first. Jorah opines that the Meereenese will win, especially if Daenerys returns with her dragon.
“Oh, I know,” said Tyrion. “The Second Sons are on the losing side. They need to turn their cloaks again and do it now.” He grinned. “Leave that to me.”
Commentary
Oh ho. Well, this should be interesting.
It’ll be even more interesting if Tyrion succeeds in convincing Plumm to change sides again AND Dany returns, because I’m betting she’s going to have some feelings about welcoming Mr. Two-Face there back into the fold. Although really, everyone should have feelings about Plumm being on their side, because he’s apparently about as reliable as your average tornado for which way he’s going to jump.
Well. I suppose that’s not entirely fair. I guess you can predict that he’s going to jump wherever there’s the most money, but for obvious reasons, that’s the least reliable reliability in the world, so I don’t see why it should count.
“We can dress you up in squire’s steel, pretend you’re Jorah’s butt boy, but there’s some will see right through that. Once Meereen is taken and we’re away to Westeros, you can prance about all you like in gold and crimson. Till then, though…”
“Butt boy”? That seems a rather disconcertingly modern slur.
But then, a lot of Martin’s profanity is a little anachronistic that way, and I get why: it’s the impact Martin’s going for, and nothing lowers impact more than using obscenities that strike the reader’s ear as old-fashioned or quaint. For the tone of this particular series, “gosh darn it all to heck!” is just not going to make the cut.
That said, “butt boy” in my brain is something you only hear from college dudebros yelling at each other in dive bars while playing beer pong, so yeah, still a little disconcerting.
Proud men might shout that they would sooner die free than live as slaves, but pride was cheap. When the steel struck the flint, such men were rare as dragon’s teeth; elsewise the world would not have been so full of slaves. There has never been a slave who did not choose to be a slave, the dwarf reflected. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.
Well, that’s depressing as all hell.
The problem with profound cynicism is that it nearly always sounds like the most realistic (and therefore true) take on a situation, because people are always more ready to accept that things are terrible than they are that things are not so terrible. Or, at least, that things don’t have to be 100% terrible all the time.
I mean, an equally legit way to look at this would be to say that people fail to choose death over slavery not through a lack of pride, but through a refusal to abandon hope, and through having the adaptability to survive in even the harshest of conditions. That may qualify as (very) cold comfort, but it at least has the advantage of not denigrating the people to whom this terrible thing has been done.
In other words, quit blaming the victim, Tyrion, God. Implying that slaves are slaves because they lack character is… gross.
Also, let’s just say, it’s maybe a little rich of Tyrion to assert the fundamental hopelessness of slavery five seconds after he’s walked away from it.
As far as his treatment of Penny goes, obviously I do not like it even a little bit. I get how her relentless optimism would be incredibly grating to Tyrion’s equally relentless cynicism, but that’s not an excuse. If I did violence to everyone who annoyed me, the world would be a John Woo movie by now, so cry me a river.
But beyond that, it’s petty and selfish of him, taking his frustrations out on the one person who is definitively weaker than him. That is the behavior of a bully, and I can’t fucking stand bullies, y’all. I get that Tyrion is under some immense pressure and has been through some crazy trauma, but none of that is sufficient justification for abuse.
So I’m still interested to see what happens with Tyrion’s storyline, but this, compounded with his previous less-than-stellar track record re: women, has ebbed my opinion of him to be fairly low, at the moment.
Chapter 67: The Kingbreaker
What Happens
Barristan meets with Skahaz clandestinely, who is sure that the business with Groleo’s head was a farce, intended to give Hizdahr an excuse to kill the dragons. Barristan reflects that it makes sense, but is unsure whether it is the truth. Skahaz still wants to attack the Yunkai’i immediately, but Barristan refuses to break the queen’s peace without provocation. Barristan wants to talk to Hizdahr first and try to convince him to stand down; he is not concerned about the king’s guards, all former pit fighters and no match for a knight.
Skahaz is not interested in rescuing Jhogo, Hero (Grey Worm’s second in command), or Daario from the Yunkai’i, but Barristan says Daenerys will not countenance it if they die. He knows she is in love with Daario, and it reminds him of the disastrous tournament where Rhaegar named Lady Lyanna Stark the queen of love and beauty. He agrees with Skahaz that her affair with Daario is “poison,” but insists that they be rescued, and refuses to consider threatening the lives of the children they hold hostage in return, remembering what had happened to Rhaegar’s children. Skahaz grumbles, but agrees, and they separate to wait for the wolf hour.
To pass the time, Barristan trains his protégés and reflects on the readiness of a few of them to be knighted, but decides to wait until the night’s events fall out, in case he ends up branded a traitor. He remembers the tournament again, and his unspoken love for Ashara Dayne, and how differently things would have gone if he had won the tournament instead of Rhaegar and been able to name Ashara the queen of love and beauty. He wonders whether that would have stopped her dalliance with Stark, and her stillborn child, and her suicide afterward.
At the right hour, Barristan girds himself in his armor and goes to Hizdahr’s chambers, noting that he has a woman in his bed. Hizdahr asks why he is there, and Barristan asks him flatly if he is the Harpy, and if he poisoned the locusts. Hizdahr is shocked, and protests that he is sure that was the Dornish prince. He insists he would never harm Daenerys, and Barristan counters that he encouraged her to eat the locusts, and also ordered the pit fighters to kill Drogon. Hizdahr protests that the dragon was killing people, but Barristan says, only Harpy’s Sons. Hizdahr suggests that maybe her sellsword paramour poisoned the dish for putting him aside, but Barristan says poison is not Daario’s style.
Barristan demands that Hizdahr either admit he is the Harpy or tell him who it is, and Hizdahr calls for his guard Khrazz. Barristan advises Khrazz to surrender, but Khrazz only laughs, and they duel. Khrazz is a deadly fighter, but he has no experience fighting against someone in armor, and Barristan soon guts him. Hizdahr whimpers that he doesn’t want to die, and Barristan assures him that he will be held unharmed until the queen returns. One of the cupbearers comes in to tell Hizdahr that Reznak summons him at once, and Barristan worries, as Skahaz was supposed to hold Reznak until they could be assured of his loyalty. He asks the boy where Reznak wants Hizdahr to go.
“Outside.” Miklaz seemed to see him for the first time. “Outside, ser. To the t-terrace. To see.”
“To see what?”
“D-d-dragons. The dragons have been loosed, ser.”
Seven save us all, the old knight thought.
Commentary
Oops.
Wow, this whole thing is so hinky. Maybe it’s just because Barristan himself is so conflicted over it, but it just feels like this entire coup is going to turn out to be a colossal mistake. I was actually shocked that confronting Hizdahr went even as well as it did.
Of course, with dragons afoot (or, er, a-wing, I suppose), I suspect that all bets will soon be off anyway. I wonder who freed them? The only person I can think of is Quentyn, but I can’t quite see why he would do so. Maybe he was trying to control them and they escaped, or something. *shrug*
But anyway, I didn’t miss that it was left massively unclear as to whether Hizdahr really was the culprit in the attempted poisoning of his wife—and whether he is actually in cahoots with the Yunkai’i as well. I was sure he was dirty initially, but now I am made uneasy by Martin’s continued coyness on the subject.
Also because I feel like he would enjoy just a little too much the irony of someone like Barristan, a defender of kings and a man deeply invested in his honor, ending up toppling a (relatively) innocent man from his throne for no cause. Because sometimes I suspect Mr. Martin is a giant troll who enjoys our pain.
I mean that in the nicest way, of course.
“Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it.”
Sort of goes back to what Tyrion was saying about slavery, in some ways, though of course Tyrion couched it in terms of “pride” rather than “honor”, because in a lot of ways Tyrion is a Lannister to the core. Barristan’s phrasing is definitely a lot harder to argue with than Tyrion’s, especially as it is presented as a positive rather than a negative for the person involved, but I still say the same thing: call it pride or honor or whatever, but generally what “death before dishonor” gets you is, well, death. And I am generally against death.
But then again, I’m against being a traitor too, and there are probably things that are worth dying for…
Ugh, this is a lot easier when you’re reading the kind of story where sticking to your honor is almost always a guarantee that you won’t get killed and/or screwed over for it. Bluh.
Reznak cannot be trusted. He smells too sweet and feels too foul.
I feel like this is a reference to something. Lord of the Rings, maybe?
ETA: The lovely and talented Kate Nepveu confirms this in the comments: “It’s from Fellowship, Book 1, Chapter 10, “Strider”: Frodo tells Aragorn that ‘You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would — well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.’”
Thanks, darlin, I knew it sounded familiar!
No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know.
That freakin’ tournament again. That thing was a damned historical singularity event, I swear.
And crap, it’s been long enough since it’s been brought up that the details are even fuzzier to me than they already were before. But, I do remember debating at some point over whether Ashara Dayne could possibly have been Jon Snow’s mother, or if she was just a red herring—though I can’t now remember what flashback prompted the question.
However, while Barristan’s thoughts here make it clear that Ned Stark did indeed sleep with her, he also says that the result was a stillborn daughter, not a living bastard son. So unless we are doing some cray-cray Days of Our Lives shit where Ashara secretly had TWINS and the surviving twin was SENT AWAY because of REASONS, or something, then it seems like the conclusion to draw is that Ashara was not in fact Jon’s mother.
(Also, someone would have AMNESIA and date their OWN SISTER, and at some point someone would be POSSESSED BY SATAN and turn into a JAGUAR, because OMG that show.)
This also, incidentally, does not paint Ned in a very flattering light at all, since it means he cheated on Catelyn not once but multiple times. Not that this is particularly shocking or anything, but, sigh. For someone who was all about honor, dude sure did omit it in a couple of key areas.
ETA: Multiple commenters have pointed out that at the time of the tournament Ned was not actually married to Catelyn, so sleeping with Ashara would not be cheating. I am very fuzzy on the chronology of the whole mess, so I will take their word for it. Still, he did cheat on Catelyn, if not with Ashara specifically, so my comment still stands in a general sense.
And, there’s probably more in this chapter that’s worth talking about, but my brain is fried, so Imma stop here for now.
But I shall return, my chicklets, never fear! Next Thursday to be exact! Be there!
1) The Tourney at Harrenhal was before Ned married.
2) Barristan said Stark, not Ned Stark. Make of that what you will.
Re: Ned cheating. It is uncertain whether or not Ned ever slept with the fisherman’s daughter, since it might be a (plausible) lie, concocted to shield Jon’s identity from too much scrutiny.
Also, the timing of Ashara Dayne’s suicide pretty much guarantees, IIRC, that Ned slept with her (if he actually did) before Brandon dies and thus, before he is engaged to Catelyn.
The Tournament actually took place before Ned was even betrothed to Catelyn, so it wasn’t cheating. Remember, it was Rheagar’s actions after the tournament that led to Brandon Stark and his father getting killed, which led to Ned marrying Catelyn in place of Brandon.
That line stuck out to me too — “There has never been a slave who did not choose to be a slave.”
Interesting (and quite the bummer, I agree) how servility becomes a survival strategy. You can refuse to debase yourself out of pride, and end up black and blue like Jorah, or you can use your low station and humility to get you through one more day. You realize that slavery, even at its worst, still keeps you breathing. And at best, it keeps you safe, warm, fed, clean, clothed, etc. It’s less a matter of weak/strong than a matter of smart/stubborn. Sometimes it’s practical to be a slave, an idea Tyrion continues to resent and Penny continues to fall back on.
And yeah, if I was staring down the monumental shitstorm that sweet naive lil’ Penny is facing right now, I might consider slavery a viable alternative to this dizzyingly dangerous plan of wearing shoddy mismatched armour and charging headlong into whatever the fuck kinda Slaver’s Bay bloodbath is coming.
At the time of the Tourney of Harrenhall, Ned was not married to Catelyn (and I’m not sure if Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon already). Ned’s marriage was after Brandon and Rickard were killed by Aerys, which provoked Robert’s Rebellion.
Ned didn’t cheat with Cat at the tournament. They werent married or engaged then. Cat was engaged to his older brother. Its only after the tournament when the mad king killed Brandon that Ned and Cat became a couple. So regardless of the Jon snow mother part whoever that is, this wouldnt be cheating.
As others have pointed out, Ned’s dalliance with Ashara Dayne was before he was betrothed to Catelyn (at the time, his older brother Brandon was betrothed to Cat). So the only currently suspected infidelity is with Jon Snow’s mother.
I’m a bit surprised that you weren’t advised to do the next chapter with this one, Leigh, as they sort of go well together. Guess you’ll understand what I mean next week…
If a woman in Westeros had engaged in premarital sex, they would have called it cheating on her husband-to-be, I’m sure.
@7, We stopped doing that because it was getting frustrating for all involved, but mostly Leigh.
Maybe he was trying to control them and they escaped, or something. *shrug*
(rot13’d) NUNUNUNUNUNUNUNUNUNUNUNUNUNU- *pyrnef guebng* Lrf. Be fbzrguvat. N ybg bs fbzrguvat. N ybg bs *svrel* fbzrguvat.
Tournament was before Ned met Catelyn, so it wouldn’t be cheating unless time travel was involved.
Also Ashara Dayne was brought up as a possible mother for Jon in an Arya chapter in book 3. But good ol’ George has also given us at least 2 other possible Jon mothers because George is incorrigible
@7 you may want to reconsider that first sentence. See my post @1.
I would add to the chorus of people pointing out that Ned was not married yet by saying that the fact that someone BELIEVES something happened doesn’t mean it DID happen.
Penny isn’t relentlessly optimistic. More like relentlessly naïve and delusional.
”I get that Tyrion is under some immense pressure and has been through some crazy trauma…”
Penny has been through some crazy trauma too, so doubly jerkish of him.
There were 3 Stark brothers present at Harrenhal.
One was too young
One was too shy
And one was known to be wild
You think Quentyn set the dragons loose! Oh!!!
Leigh, in addition to the other things you listed above, if this we a Days of Our Lives scenario, the real John Snow would be locked in a cave throughout the entire series and the John Snow we see on screen would be an impostor.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@18 Yeah! And Catelyn would be running around the forest as an undead vengeance-seeking … er… um, never mind.
@11: Ashara Dayne was also mentioned by Catelyn as a candidate as early as book 1, IIRC. Crazy talk I say. Jon’s mother is clearly Catelyn, but Jon and Robb were separated at birth and Catelyn’s suffering amnesia about the whole thing ever since she was possessed by the jaguar devil.
As other have pointed out, the timing doesn’t match for Ned to have been cheating. That said, it’s also possible Barristan is mistaken and given the track record of the way things go in this book, I’m not going to take his statement at face value.
By the way, nice distinction between lack of pride vs. hope/will to carry on. I am fairly certain I would not just get myself killed instead of being a slave, but would try to live.
As for honor…well, I do hope there are at least some things I’d be willing to take a stand for, even if it meant risking my life.
There have been at least 3 women mentioned in the books as possible Jon Snon’s mother. They are
1) Ashara Dayne (appears first in Catelyn chapter in book 1). The affair could’ve happened either at the tournament of Harrenhal (before Ned and Cat were married or betrothed) as Barristan believes, or after it (when Ned returned her brother’s sword to her castle, in Starfall), as Cat believes. Either way, the story goes that Ashara killed herself by jumping from the tower, from some kind of grief. Barristan believes it’s due to stillbirth of her child, while Cat believed it was due to her brother dying or not being able to marry Ned.
2) Wylla, a wetnurse at the employment of Ashara Dayne. This is first mentioned in book 3, in an Arya chapter. Arya meets Ned, who is part of the Brotherhood without Banners. He and a guy who used to work for Ned as a guard (forgot his name), but who was part of the Brotherhood without Banners at that moment, say Jon Snow and Ned were nursed by Wylla on the way back to the North, after the war to depose Aerys had ended. He says that Jon was Wylla’s son.
3) A nameless fisherman’s daughter in the Fingers, islands near the Vale. This is told by a lord of the Fingers in a Davos chapter in book 5. The lord says Ned Stark was going to the North by sea to avoid being taken by Aerys’ loyalists, but his ship wrecked on the Fingers. He was nursed to health by a fisherman’s daughter, with whom he had an affair. The result of that affair was his bastard, Jon Snow.
I know Days of Our Lives set a high standard, but I think ASOIAF is up to challenge. Twin incest, patricide, servant girl pretending to be heiress, rich guy with eight deceased wives – at this point its a shock to find someone using their real name.
Finding that Lord of the Rigs reference was brilliance Leigh! It is about Aragorn (or Strider at the time) seeming sweeter but feeling fouler if he was the servant if the Enemy or something like that!
If you are sworn to die for you duty like knights are (protecting weak and the innocent among other things, not that many westerosi knights do that) you are prepared to die. There is indeed honor of being a knight if you truly follow your wows and your death means something, you are more than just a killer unlike what Sandor believed. But as Jaime has demonstrated, following your oaths is always not that easy because of moral conflicts and and people in general are weak. The ideals are something to admire however even if nobody could quite be the perfect knight.The contrast to what Tyrion said about slavery was also interesting to think.
Barristan refers to a Stark, so it is not necessarily Ned but could be one of his two brothers or his father.
call it pride or honor or whatever, but generally what “death before dishonor” gets you is, well, death.
One of my favorite quotes by Lois McMaster Bujold is “Oaths that begin with death before dishonor usually end in one or the other” (Actually paraphrasing, but close enough)
@23, I thought Arya met him at Harrenhal?
*ears perk up*
Someone asked for a LotR reference?
It’s from Fellowship, Book 1, Chapter 10, “Strider”: Frodo tells Aragorn that “You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would — well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.”
(And while we’re at it:
“In my experience,” he said, “the trouble with oaths of the form, death before dishonor, is that eventually, given enough time and abrasion, they separate the world into just two sorts of people: the dead, and the forsworn.”
–Lois McMaster Bujold, A Civil Campaign, chapter 17)
“If a woman in Westeros had engaged in premarital sex, they would have called it cheating on her husband-to-be, I’m sure.”
If you’re referring to Ashara Dayne, I don’t believe that she was engaged to anyone at the time. It’s my personal speculation that she and Ned were in love and planning to get married when his brother went and got himself killed, starting a rebellion as well, and Ned found himself having to marry Hoster Tully’s daughter Catelyn for a marriage alliance in his borther’s place if he wanted the Riverlands to come into the war on his side.
The tragedy is more pronounced that way. Both Ned and Cat loved someone else and are marrying a stranger in the name of duty.
“Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it.”
I thought of this as a counterpoint to the Hound’s “knights are for killing, period” mindset. True knights may be few and far between, but they do exist, and the standard is worth aspiring to even if most fall short.
Also, I don’t think Barristan’s in a position to confirm anything about Ned and Ashara. He was unlikely to have witnessed their assignation himself. He’s probably just repeating a rumor he believes to be true.
Martin started to lose me with Tyrion with the Second Sons. Aside from his bullying of Penny and myopic musings on slavery, the whole situation just looks like a giant contrivance to get him where the plot requires him to be.
Leigh,
Catelyn talks about the rumor Ashara Dayne being Jon’s mother very early in book 1. Possibly her first viewpoint chapter, but I’m not certain of that off the top of my head. Catelyn confronted Ned about it and he told her never to mention Ashara’s name again, asked who it was she heard this rumor from, and had the servants she had heard it from dismissed.
There are several options for his mother that have been given within the story. There is a very popular theory, which I subscribe to, which I won’t go into of course.
Regarding the Tournament at Harrenhal, I really suggest you go back and reread Book 3, 2nd Bran chapter on pg 331. Meera tells the story of the tournament starting on pg 337. It is one of those chapters (similar to Dany’s chapter in Book 2 where she goes into the House of the Undying) that should be reread as you go through the series.
Well if this were a South Park epsisode, Jon Snow’s mother would be……. NED STARK!
(And his father would be John Elway)
@30, remember that noble women are expected to be virgin for their first marriage. Men are not held to the same standard.
@34
If we’re still on Cat, sure. But Ashara was Dornish.
Here’s hoping for two more next week then a surprise announcement that Winds of Winter comes out in time for Christmas. . Almost done!
Barristan seemed to be in love with Ashara but that would have violated his Kingsguard vow of Chastity. I think Ned was very closed mouth about the Mother’s name though I do believe he and Ashara were probably a couple Like Cat and Uncle Bran but honor and alliances dictated he marry a Tully Heiress. Rumours were spread by Robert and others around the Rebel Camp based on assumptions and hearsay. Ned was honorable but so was Robb who caused the Red Wedding by breaking his vow to the Freys for love.
@34 o.m.
If Ned and Ashara Dayne were planning to get married, then no one would have cared. Plus, as was mentioned above, Ashara was Dornish and her own family was less likely to have seen a problem with that. I believe someone essentially makes that argument to Arya when she’s traveling with the Brotherhood without Banners. I think it was Harwin, pointing out that even if the rumors of their love affair were true, that it was when Cat was still engaged to Brandon and that neither Ashara or Ned were spoken for, so it was all okay..
Tyrion’s chapter was funny to read though. I don’t think it’s wrong to tell Penny the truth, and he doesn’t go so far as to say they were meant to be lion treats, which she definitely didn’t glean on her own. Slapping her goes a little far, but it’s a wake up slap, I don’t think he really wailed on her.
As for Barristan, well, he’s a lot like Ned, and stuck trying to play politics, he kind of sucks at it as well, but at least he is decisive in his action, something Ned was not.
@30, You don’t seem to be all that familiar with American Christianity’s purity culture, which does hold to the idea that ANY premarital sex is stealing something precious from your future husband, even if you don’t know who that will be. So the idea that Ashara would be viewed as a cheater to her eventual husband(even if she wanted to marry Ned, her desire to do so is no guarantee that it will happen, Brandon didn’t want to marry Catelyn either)
@30, 39. Who was Catelyn in love with? Was she in love with Brandon Stark?
@39 Aeryl
Westeros is not an example of American Christian purity culture. See my comment in @37 for a site of the way people thought of that specific affair. Oh, and Catelyn and Brandon DID want to marry each other. Catelyn muses about Brandon occasionally in her chapters and it’s obvious they were fond of each other. She also thinks about her initial disappointment that Ned was not a slightly younger version of Brandon when she met him…on their wedding day.
“..sometimes I suspect Mr. Martin is a giant troll who enjoys our pain.”
And that’s the hearth of the whole Song of Ice and Fire
Hi guys,
Thanks for correcting me on the Ned/Catelyn/Ashara thing; the post has been updated to reflect.
Also thanks to Kate for giving me the LOTR and Bujold references; I’ve got new cut text now! Not that anyone sees that, usually, but it makes me happy.
@@@@@ 27
His name is Edric Dayne, squire to Lord Beric Dondarrion. Since he’s a part of the Brotherhood without Banners, I remember that he didn’t go near Harrenhal at all. But I might be remembering things wrong.
@44: Yeah, it sounds like you might be thinking of Elmar Frey, Arya’s would-be betrothed.
@Aeryl – I don’t think Dorne subscribes to American Christian purity culture ;)
Interestingly enough, I did once have a conversation with a guy who felt the same way about his own sexual activity that he regretted (regarding ‘stealing’ it from his future wife) and was almost despairing of it. But this was not a person who subscribed to purity culture per se (which seems to be mostly associated with certain sects of evangelicalism/fundamentalism). It was actually kind of an interesting conversation; ultimately he ended up in a good place and realized that even if he had made some mistakes, the slate was clean and it wasn’t worth worrying about anybody who would judge him on his past; just worry about today.
..will be fun.
So Barristan said Ashara was involved with “Stark” (nice wording, GRRM) and you immediately assume it’s Ned. Let’s see, was there a Stark who was known to be a ladies’ man and got around quite a bit, even though he was betrothed? Hmm….
And now Barristan’s thoughts about young girls preferring fire to mud start to be a bit clearer. He was simply projecting, thinking about that time Ashara decided to have a good time with someone – maybe someone who could be called “fire” because of his character? – to Barristan’s grief.
What I don’t understand is what exactly does Barristan think he would have achieved by naming Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy – so how would Ashara becoming interested in him help her “honor” – or his honor? Does he think merely showing some attention would have been enough for her as far as romance and relationships go?
@34 Not in Dorne, where Ashara was from. Barristan thinking Ashara was “dishonored” may have been a lot like the poor hapless Arys Oakhart thinking about dishonoring Arianne, while she was laughing at his sexist patronizing ideas.
My reaction to the idea that someone having sex is “stealing” from their future spouse they haven’t even met would need o be expressed by the biggest “WTF” smiley in the world.
@23: Wylla was actually first mentioned very early in book 1, in the conversation between Robert and Ned in Winterfell:
Notice that Ned never actually says that Wylla is Jon’s mother, he just clarifies who is the woman Robert is referring to. So, maybe someone read this and thought that there was no mystery and Wylla was actually Jon’s mother, but I think most people, like me, concluded that she definitely was not, and Ned was just deflecting Robert’s attention by seeming to confirm his belief.
@32: You’re remembering it wrong. Ned did not tell Catelyn never to mention Ashara’s name; he told Catelyn never to inquire about who Jon’s mother is.
I won’t say who I firmly believe to be Jon’s mother; it’s a very popular theory. I will say just this: Ned was telling the truth to Catelyn, Jon really is his blood; and Catelyn was right about one thing: Ned really did love Jon’s mother a lot.
Leigh,
I don’t think that “butt boy” was meant to be profane seeing as in Medieval times “the butts” was the term used to refer to the archery training area. Since Jorah is a fighter, perhaps it was meant to show that Tyrion dressed up in “squire’s steel” would in fact act as Jorah’s squire/archery practice assistant. It never struck me as a profanity of any sort when I read it. I just assimilated it with the context.
@48
What Barristan would have achieved by winning and naming Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty is that Rhaegar would not have won and therefore wouldn’t have been able to name Lyanna as his Queen of Love and Beauty, which was kind of the spark of the whole incident, as far as we know.
Leigh, I think it would be better if you do just one chapter next week, because the chapter that comes after that will give you a lot to talk about and I would like to see you do it justice.
@48: Oh, you do have a way with words…
@50: Barristan thinks that Ashara may not have turned to Stark if he had won and named her QOLAB. Since Ashara had nothing to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don’t see how that had anything to do with Ashara’s relationships.
That quote by Tyrion has grated on me more than almost anything he’s ever said and I love Tyrion. He continued to be a slave for a while until he found a chance to escape and his escape was based on being independently wealthy beyond belief. His escape was less based on him pulling himself up by the bootstraps and more based on fortune… another crooked mercenary less knowledgeable of Westeros would not have believed him. Most other people who find themselves in the throes of slavery cant promise land titles and wealth beyond belief to become not a slave
Who let the dragons out? Who, who, who, who —
I had to. :-P
In Westeros, tourneys are prone to being historical singularity events. Like weddings, and tourneys at weddings. Best to avoid all of them.
A woman’s premarital “purity” may not be important in Dorne, but is much more so in Westeros at large.
@24: Right? In this story, siblings can fuck marry date without being amnesiac, people get possessed by demons of a sort, and while jaguars are not in evidence, the mythology does involve human/animal shapeshifters.
@38: Agreed. I am not among the readers who hate Penny as a character and wish her ill (ha), but I think Tyrion was right to be sharp with her at that moment. He’s afraid she’ll run off and get killed, enslaved to someone monstrous, and/or give away his whereabouts, or else pine and dream until an attacker kills her in her vulnerability. He can’t turn her into a warrior, but he can try to get her armed, armored, and in a mindset to accept the possible necessity of fighting for her life (and considering her life worth fighting for). Gentleness wasn’t working.
@49: I saw a sexual connotation in the phrase, with Ben saying Tyrion was “not pretty enough to be (whatshisname)’s butt boy,” so would need a different task.
@48
If he had won… Ashara might have looked to Barristan instead of Stark.
He can’t be talking about preventing her dishonour (or at least not the causes of it), because you don’t ‘look to’ someone until trouble is already brewing for you.
Clearly whatever she ‘looked to’ Stark for didn’t turn out well for her, since Barristan believes she had a stillborn girl and committed suicide.
It seems to me that he’s thinking (in terms of Ashara Dayne at least) that by looking to him instead of ‘Stark’ things might have turned out better for her. He may have been able to provide some actual support (she doesn’t seem to have gotten any from Stark, effectively at least) of some kind, something that might have prevented her suicide, if nothing else.
I don’t think we can read too much more into that, at least in terms of Ashara’s fate.
Also worth noting is the fire men/mud men thing. Note that in Barristan’s opinion young girls (of which Ashara is one of the few we know he has been around) always choose fire, to their loss.
It seems likely he believes Ashara chose fire, to her loss.
@38, 48: Agreed about Tyrion and Penny – I didn’t find Tyrion’s behavior to be bullying as much as I found it to be “tough love”.
We have a lot of references to the Tourney of Harrenhal in the five books, but they are ever fragments. Some memories, some things heard but not really seen, some allusion, never a true story. If you want to reunite every thing together you must re-read the books, otherwise is impossible to remember every detail and tie it with the others.
But for a first read you’re a very fine reader, and your posts are always funny and/or impressive.
“There has never been a slave who did not choose to be a slave, the dwarf reflected. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.”
Michel de Montaigne – “A man who has learned how to die has unlearned how to be a slave”.
If he had won… Ashara might have looked to Barristan instead of Stark. He can’t be talking about preventing her dishonour (or at least not the causes of it), because you don’t ‘look to’ someone until trouble is already brewing for you.
I think you’re over-interpreting; I just read this as “she went off and slept with Stark because he caught her eye when he won the tourney and named her Queen of Love and Beauty, and ultimately that’s why she died (because of her illegitimate pregnancy and stillborn child). If I’d won instead, and named her, then she wouldn’t have given Stark a second look. Not that she’d have slept with me instead – I’m a Kingsguard – but she wouldn’t have slept with anyone, and therefore she’d still be alive.”
re: butt boy
I wish GRRM had used the term “butt monkey” instead…
Annara Snow @48 — your last paragraph is true only if your theory is correct. (Although I do agree with that theory.)
Thanks for reading my musings>
AndrewHB
@59 But Stark didn’t win the tournament (whichever Stark it was that Barristan meant), it was Prince Rhaegar.
Whatever led Ashara to a supposed dalliance with Stark, it wasn’t the fighting at the tournament that impressed her. Neither Brandon nor Ned did particularly well as I recall.
And indeed, Barristan was probably wrong too that defeating Rhaegar would have changed the course of history. Winning a tournament isn’t the only way to express love and affection to a lady, not even in Westeros. Rhaegar and Lyanna could have gotten together any number of ways, including possibly via the Knight of the Laughing Tree incident. Barristan is a perfect illustration of that expression: if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. That problem wasn’t one that can be solved by his knightly skills, sorry.
Ha! If I have a future spouse at all, I am positive I did her a HUGE favor by practicing on someone else first, and sparing her….that!
In fact, I think we all owe it to our future spouses to get as much practice as possible prior to meeting them. ; )
@29 – Of course, Miles went on to recommend use of one’s navel as an honor re-set button.
@56. That is my impression also, that Ashara looked to Stark for help with something.
Most people assume Ashara is still alive. Jumped into the sea is a convenient way to “die” in Westeros.
Iwonder whether a Ned-Ashara fling, if true, would be another iteration of “ice and fire” that will be shown to matter before the end of the series.
@@@@@ 62
Barristan should’ve improved his cockblocking skills, not his jousting skills, to prevent the disaster that happened after the Harrenhal tournament (civil war, etc).
@65, eh, I don’t find the lack of practice hurt either of us, but I suppose that’s more of a philosophical question. Nor do I want to be treated as just ‘practice’ for some future person (or treat another person that way). But obviously we’re all free to make our own choices in that regard. Assuming each person knows where the other person is coming from and is okay with that. But I do think that it is an easy trap to fall into (amongst people who view sex as something that belongs to marriage) to treat virginity in the physical sense as a Thing to be idolized and any transgressions in that area something that leaves some kind of permanent ‘stain’.
Am I the only one that thinks Barristans musings about “how differently things would have gone if he had won the tournament instead of Rhaegar,” refers to Roberts Rebellion and the current political landscape that he finds himself in. Barristan has no illusions that winning the tournament may not have stopped “Stark” and Ashara’s daliances.
Therefore, I believe he’s saying that had he won, Rhaegar would never had had the chance to name Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty. And subsequently would not have “kidnapped” Lyanna, which sparked Roberts Rebellion. Yada, yada, yada…would not be in Meereen trying to politic while Daenerys is off flying around on a dragon.
Basically, he wonders that if he’d won, would he still be in the Kingsguard protecting the now King Rhaegar and possibly admiring his love Ashara from afar.
@David Hunt
No, but Westeros is an example of extreme patriarchy. Just like American Christianity’s purity culture.
@53
Barristan does think that and is almost certainly wrong, as has been said he’s a Kingsguard so not really sure what he expected. But my point remains that if Barristan had unhorsed Rhaegar then he couldn’t have named Lyanna QOLAB, he just doesn’t seem to realise that himself.
So you are correct that ‘what he thought’ he would achieve is that Ashara would not have turned to Stark, but the actual implications are much bigger.
(Apologies for the delayed response too)
@53 (@70 too)
Barristan does think that and is almost certainly wrong, as has been said he’s a Kingsguard so not really sure what he expected. But my point remains that if Barristan had unhorsed Rhaegar then he couldn’t have named Lyanna QOLAB, he just doesn’t seem to realise that himself (I completely take your point @70 that he perhaps just doesn’t quite want to say it so he frames it in terms of him and Ashara).
So you are correct that ‘what he thought’ he would achieve is that Ashara would not have turned to Stark, but the actual implications are much bigger.
(Apologies for the delayed response too)
@Aeryl @71
Yes, Westeros and American Purity Culture are both examples of extreme patriarchy, but they are different examples. Arya talks about this with Edric Dayne and Harwin in her 8th chapter in ASOS (Chapter 43). IIRC, Harwin talks about how everyone’s blood is up at tourneys, they were neither promised to anyone, etc. He seems to think that there was nothing wrong with an affair in those circumstances. I also got the impression from various accounts of the Tourney that Brandon practically threw his younger brother Ned at Ashara. No one seems to care.
I’ll grant that Harwin used to be Ned’s man and would tend to see him in the best light. Also, that he says, “Let it lie, my lady. They’re dead, all of them.” Still, I think that he’s saying this because he can see how upset Arya is at the thought of her father ever loving anyone but her mother. Also, neither Harwin, nor Edric acknowledge the slightest hint of scandal.
I’m sure that you can come up with counter-examples of affairs that were scandals, perhaps even under very similar circumstances. All that would show is that Westeros mores are inconsistent and hypocritical. Well, we already know that. I still say that we’ve got good evidence that this particular affair that we’re arguing about was NOT considered scandalous.
p.s. Yes I’m aware that it’s irrational that Arya would be upset at the thought of her father loving some other woman when she’s got a bastard brother. Jon’s mother is a nameless, faceless concept to her that no one ever talks about. Ashara Dayne is “real person.” This may be irrational, but can make perfect emotional sense, plus Arya’s maybe ten years old when she hears about this.
I don’t understand why Leigh is so surprised that Tyrion is acting like a bully: he RAPED a broken sex slave not that many chapters ago.
@75 – Tyrion’s long fall from grace as the most likable of the Lannisters (fratricide and rapine notwithstanding) is what’s troubling to most observers. I’m of the opinion that it makes his character very realistic and… human. If Jamie can push a kid out of a window just to cover an incestuous affair and still be considered a redeemable character, then there should be hope for Tyrion as well.
Obviously, Tyrion slapping Penny is just plain wrong.
But I get Tyrion’s anger / disappointment at Penny, too.
Tyrion escaped slavery and a very nasty death – either by dying in the arena the next time they decide to have an amusing “see the dwarves fight the lions with wooden swords” show and Dany isn’t around to put a stop to it, or by the pale mare – by his Lannister name and the Second Sons’ knowledge of just how wealthy the Lannisters are: and of course his own talent for glib talk. I was really impressed by Tyrion’s literally talking himself out of slavery with nothing but his words and promises on parchment. (I veer between liking/hating Tyrion, but regardless of like or hate, that was bloody neat work.)
Tyrion has no reason to like Jorah, and we know he doesn’t like Penny. He didn’t need to take either of them with him when he walked out. He saved Jorah because he thought he might still have some use for him. He has no use at all for Penny. But he rescues Penny from certain death because he doesn’t want to leave her behind knowing she’ll die. And what does he get? Complaints that he didn’t also rescue the dog and pig, and complaints that they were better off as pet slaves and entertainers.
Now, “you didn’t rescue the animals” I actually do see as a reasonable complaint for Penny: those two beasts were her companions and her living. And “we were better off in slavery” isn’t an outrageous complaint either: Penny’s status hasn’t changed all that much. She was dependent on their owner’s goodwill: now she’s dependent on Tyrion’s goodwill.
But I do see that Tyrion, having rescued Penny from nasty death, having just managed to finagle himself and Penny out of huge danger into comparative safety – they’re not dying of the bloody flux, they’re not at risk of being thrown into the arena – has a right to be irritated that Penny’s not a bit grateful.
Granted the grown-up thing for Tyrion to do is to swallow down his irritation and reflect again that he’s just not cut out for the role of handsome hero-saviour, no matter how cleverly/bravely he saves one, two, or a cityful of people – and nothing justifies his slapping Penny – but I can’t dislike him for just plain being pissed off at one more person who doesn’t notice he just saved her life.
@8 Not unless the woman in question was betrothed beforehand.
@34 Well, technically, they are, but hardly anybody cares. If Ned had lived to see Robb married, he would’ve seen it as dishonorable for him to sleep around beforehand.
@70
THIS. Exactly this. All he’s saying there is had he won, the civil war likely wouldn’t have happened, and everything would be different. Doesn’t mean he’s right, it could have happened in some other way, with some other inciting incident, but the ACTUAL inciting incident–the only one he knows about–wouldn’t have happened.
Didn’t Tyrion himself admit he would rather be a slave then die, “Tyrion Lanister did not except himself.” It is literally the paragraph IMMEDIATELY after the quoted one. Just because he wants to get control of his own life back as soon as possible does not mean he does not admit he chose slavery over death, its just when he saw a third option he took it.
One of Ned’s brothers was a Don Juan type of person. Could he be the Stark that Ashara had affair with?
Penny is a teenage girl who has always been protected and cared for – It’s not slavery she wants it’s the feeling of shelter and safety. Good luck finding it, Girl.