Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan practiced her scholarship and her Lightweaving, and perhaps took a small step toward confronting her memories. This week, we go back in time to watch sixteen-year-old Shallan struggle with the balance between helping her father and helping, well, everyone else.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 61: Obedience
Point of View: Li’l Shallan
Setting: Davar estate
Symbology: Inverse Pattern, Chach, Nalan
IN WHICH Shallan has become the perfect, quiet, obedient daughter; the Davar fortunes are slowly changing, but Father is not happier as a result; he forbids Balat’s courtship of Eylita; in retribution for defiance, Father has Balat’s new pod of axehound pups slaughtered; Father has not only a new steward, but a whole new batch of frightening guards; Helaran has returned to the area briefly, but will soon be gone for a long time (!); Balat suggests that he, Eylita, and Shallan run away and find work in Vedenar; Shallan thinks that perhaps Balat should leave, but she herself must stay; Lord Davar orders one of his men to find and kill Helaran, promising the Shardblade as his reward; Malise confronts him, and a shouting match ensues; Lord Davar stomps out, complaining that it’s all everyone else’s fault because no one in this house obeys him.
Quote of the Week
“Would you go with me? If I took Eylita and left? You could be a scribe. Earn your own way, be free of Father.”
“I … No. I need to stay.”
“Why?”
“Something has hold of Father, something awful. If we all leave, we give him to it. Someone has to help him.”
“Why do you defend him so? You know what he did.”
“He didn’t do it.”
“You can’t remember,” Balat said. “You’ve told me over and over that your mind blanks. You saw him kill her, but you don’t want to admit that you witnessed it. Storms, Shallan. You’re as broken as Wikim and Jushu. As … as I am sometimes …”
While I do understand and sympathize with the need for Li’l Shallan to block her memories, I can’t help thinking that life would have been a lot better for the rest of the family if they’d known the truth. The brothers wouldn’t have to hate their father; their father wouldn’t have to bear Shallan’s secret alone; they could all work together to protect Shallan from the other crazies out there; the internal pressure wouldn’t have to drive them all into their own special form of insanity. *sigh*
But then there wouldn’t be much of a story, so there’s that, I guess. All right, I don’t really want to care less about the characters in a book, or I wouldn’t love the book so much. Even so.
SANDERSOOOOONNNNNN! You make my heart hurt!
Commentary
And so we return to the depressive atmosphere of the Davar estate. Last time we were here, Lord Davar had refused to pay Jushu’s gambling debts—mostly because he had no money to do so, though he wouldn’t admit it. Defying her father’s orders to go to her room, Shallan offered up what little she and her brothers had to buy Jushu back, and for the first time (IIRC) we saw someone else beaten specifically for something Shallan had done.
Now we find that the pattern has been established: when she in any way angers her father, he beats someone else in her name. The only defense a 14-year-old has in that case, I think, is the one Shallan has used for the past 15 months: she became a “perfect” daughter so that no one else would get hurt.
What would happen if Balat left? He backed down from fights with Father, but at least he resisted. Wikim merely did what he was told, and Jushu was still a mess. We have to just weather this, Shallan thought. Stop provoking Father, let him relax. Then he’ll come back….
It’s certainly what I’d have done. “Let’s all just do what he wants, stop resisting, and maybe he’ll get better.” Unfortunately, their attempts at passivity don’t seem to have helped Lin any, and it seems pretty clear that Balat’s pitiful resistance is not enough to have the spiraling negative effects that are in evidence. That’s because they are, of course, reckoning without the influence of Odium on their father, plus whatever manipulation the Ghostbloods are doing. He’s getting worse and worse.
To rub salt in the wound, there’s another reminder that Lin Davar wasn’t always a bad-tempered man:
Surely that would make him start laughing again. Surely that would drive the darkness from his eyes.
Shallan unmistakably remembers a time when her father laughed often, and was the kind of man who loved and enjoyed his little daughter as much as she loved and enjoyed him. Whether that was a daddy-daughter link that excluded his sons, we really don’t know; they don’t seem to have the same loving memories of earlier years, but it’s possible that all their earlier memories are tainted by the belief that he murdered their mother. Shallan knows that not only did he not commit murder, he’s allowing them to think he did because he’s protecting his little girl… so her memories of a devoted father are unaffected.
::sniffle:: Gah! Every time I think about that particular dynamic, it makes me even sadder.
ANYWAY. The topic of contention today is Balat’s declared intent to marry Eylita, who Lin has decided is much too low-ranked for him. No, his son and avowed heir must marry up, and as high up as he can manage. (I wonder if anyone at all besides the now-twisted Lin Davar would be serious about marrying the 21-year-old Balat to Highprince Valam’s fifty-something daughter. Oy.)
Sadly, Balat’s attempt to stand up for himself on this particular day has two very negative results: One, Lord Davar uses Balat’s one healthy pursuit (breeding axehounds) against him, tainting the only thing besides Eylita that was holding him together. Two, Balat spills a secret not meant to be shared by telling his father that Helaran is back… thereby setting up an assassination attempt on Helaran, and a new hostility between Lin and Malise. And we know where that’s going to end.
Speaking of Malise, though, this is the first time she’s felt like more than a bland placeholder. I could love her solely for this:
“How dare you,” said a feminine voice from within.
Stunned silence followed. Shallan edged back to look into the room. Malise, her stepmother, stood in the doorway between the bedroom and the sitting room. The small, plump woman had never seemed threatening to Shallan before. But the storm on her face today could have frightened a whitespine.
“Your own son,” Malise said. “Have you no morals left? Have you no compassion?”
*sigh* This glimpse of backbone was sweet at the time, even though she did follow it up with, “It is one thing to beat the servants, but to kill your own son?” (Eurgh!) There was some hope for her to turn out well, for a few minutes here…
Stormwatch
This takes place one and a half years prior to the “present” action, and about one and a half years after the previous flashback, when Shallan bought Jushu back from his creditors. Shallan is about a week past her sixteenth birthday in this scene.
Sprenspotting
Painspren, for Balat’s anguish over the pitiful remains of the axehound pups he’d been breeding. That is all.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Stepping back from Balat’s reaction to the fate of his latest batch of pups, there are a couple of interesting notes. One is simply that one of the ways Balat has been coping with life has been to develop an interest in breeding axehounds. In focusing on the creation of new life, he’s made progress against his old habits of destroying life; now, he rarely hurts anything larger than a cremling. Which… is still a bit creepy, but it’s better than relishing axehound fights. I guess.
Anyway, the other interesting thing is that axehounds apparently produce pups in pods. The question I have now is this: Is “pod” a nomenclature thing, like a pod of whales? Or is it a physical thing, like the egg case of a locust? Just for the sake of Rosharan ecological weirdness, I’m guessing it’s the latter. But I think I’d prefer the former.
Ars Mechanica
While there’s no direct mention of the Soulcaster yet, I think it’s hinted here for the first time, suitably accompanied a few paragraphs later by the first appearance of the new steward Luesh.
But surely… surely things would get better now. Indeed, as Shallan was involved more by the ardents in accounts, she noted a shrewdness to the way her father stopped being bullied by other lighteyes and started playing them against each other. He impressed her, but frightened her, in how he seized for power. Father’s fortunes changed further when a new marble deposit was discovered on his lands—providing resources to keep up with his promises, bribes, and deals.
Whether Davar’s new shrewdness was the cause or the result of Ghostblood attentions isn’t entirely clear, though I think it reads more like the former. In either case, the new marble deposit is certainly the latter, and is plainly instrumental in encouraging his ambitions.
Heraldic Symbolism
Chach and Nalan grace the arch for this poor chapter. I believe Chach is partly for Obedience, and partly for Shallan’s odd role (the youngest child, and the only girl) as Guard for her family. Regarding Nalan, though, I am—as usual—less certain. Is it simply the references to Helaran and his yet-unknown association with the Skybreakers? Is it the twisting of Justice? The new Confidence of Shallan’s father? I’m really open to suggestions here, folks.
Shipping Wars
Am I the only person who thinks that Eylita is crazy to take Balat? Not only is he the scion of a fairly questionable house—even if he is several dahn above her—but he’s certifiably nuts. I feel sorry for him, very much, but I can’t help thinking this has to be a very unhealthy relationship.
Just Sayin’
Favorite metaphor:
She entered the manor, but couldn’t help feeling that she was trying to hold together a carpet as dozens of people pulled out threads from the sides.
That sounds like fun, eh?
Well. On that cheery note, I’ll see you in the comments for your reactions. That ought to keep us busy until next week time, when we return to Kaladin’s prison cell for further ill-timed revelations. Yeah, sorry, no sunshine there either.
Editing to add: There will be no reread post next week, November 26. I’m taking Thanksgiving week off. So for all you USA types, happy Thanksgiving! For everyone else… uh… sorry? (Now I sound Canadian!) Anyway… use the opportunity to dig deeply into the flashbacks, or go reread both epigraph-letters, or something else fun. Back in two weeks!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, who likes to take these opportunities to point out that we’re following one of the most prolific SFF writers going these days. With Shadows of Self out just recently, and The Bands of Mourning as well as Calamity coming out in the near future, this is a good time to be a reader. And Sanderson has been tracking progress on Stormlight 3 for NaNoWriMo; his progress bar is now at 28%. Just sayin’… it’s a good time to be a fan.
Have we confirmed with Word of Brandon that something from Odium has hold of Shallan’s Father? Because the kind of stuff he’s doing isn’t so crazy that I have to credit it to supernatural influence. Even now, he seems less “evil than Sadeas, though much less controlled.
So, there’s definitely some effect. We don’t know exactly what, but IMO, when he goes from what I can readily see as the pressure of bearing someone else’s guilt in secret, to doing wacko stuff like beating one person to punish another – not to mention suddenly developing new skills in political maneuvering – it’s a pretty good bet that something else is happening. Probably Odium-related.
At a recent signing, I asked Brandon if what had happened to Shallan’s family was connected to the black sphere that Szeth buried in Jah Keved. His answer: “Not directly.”
Make of that what you will.
On a separate note, I find it mildly interesting that you get the same painspren for mental pain (i.e. anguish) that you do for physical pain.
My vote for the “pod” = grouping of pups. But I could be wrong.
Looks like we are all busy based on the lack of comments @2 pm.
Such a warm family moment to lead us into the Thanksgiving break.
Malise’s comment just stuck me as such a perfect example of how cast systems hurt everyone. I’ve seen the same type of comments regarding the servant class of pre-WWI England and of USA slave days. Not saying it is right. Saying it was not an uncommon mentality. Yes, it is a mentality that sucks.
Just like when they asked if there were any witnesses to the crime. They didn’t mean “any”. They were looking for males of the same social rank. Because servants and slaves are not “people” enough.
Tor mobile site ate my first comment.
@Wetlandernw whipping boys were a pretty big staple of the middle ages so the idea of punishing someone else for the sins of a “noble” wasn’t enough for me to assume he had to be controlled by an evil supernatural force. As well marriages between 20 and 50 year olds happened with regularity in the middle ages now usually it was a female 20 year old and a fifty year old male (a historical trope I am pretty sure Sanderson is purposely subverting here and good on him for it honestly I don’t find the non subverted trope as disturbing but I don’t really have a good reason for that so his subversion served its purpose). I also don’t think it would have been any easier if the truth had come out. Even if there wasn’t a father daughter relationship that excluded the sons telling your sons that your daughter killed their (and her) mother after the mother tried to kill her. There is no good way for that to go down. Young sons often idolize there mothers (likely something to do with gaining sustenance and love) and likely would have not believed the mother was wrong. Especially when you take in HOW she killed her mother and how a women summoning a shard blade would likely have been something they considered unholy … certainly the path they took was bad but I don’t think the path of truth would have been any better here. Honestly not many situations are no win but this one may very well be. It takes a lot for a book to depress me but this whole sequence yup I had to give myself breaks in the reading became man talk about dark. Sanderson isn’t Martian so when he decides to go dark it is more effective for not being overused and this is situational/emotional darkness as opposed to simple disgusting evil. I mean when you take into account the culture of the world his characters live in everyone here acted almost as they had too, you can’t really label anyone as evil, which only makes it more depressing.
Alice, you wrote “While I do understand and sympathize with the need for Li’l Shallan to block her memories, I can’t help thinking that life would have been a lot better for the rest of the family if they’d known the truth. The brothers wouldn’t have to hate their father; ..” [emphasis added]. I disagree. Even if Lin had told his sons some of the truth (for some unknown reason, their mother and friend tried to kill Shallan; Lin was struggling to stop them; somehow, Shallan killed her mother in self defense), I do not think the Davar household would be peaches and cream. Lin’s sadistic behavior was not caused by his taking the blame of the first Lady Davar’s death. Rather, it was the trigger that brought that sadistic behavior to the forefront (with some possible help from Odium). I think that characteristic leading to sadistic behavior was always present in Lin. It just needed a spark to come to the forefront. Covering up his first wife’s death was that spark.
FWIIW, I agree dwcole @5 that telling the truth that Shallan produced a Shardblade would a disaster.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Also most likely no one wants to stand up to Lin Davar is because he is assumed to have a shard blade……because his wife was killed with one and he took the blame,so of course everyone believes he must have one.
This chapter is so sad and the dysfunction heart breaking
It would be very interesting to see Lin’s take on things. After Shallan’s mother died, Lin’s initial reaction was to protect Shallan. There’s no way he could have gone “public” about Shallan and her Shardblade (and other tricks) while also protecting her – she would likely have been treated like a demon (or possessed) child or something and I think that’s also the simplest explanation for what motivated Shallan’s mother to attack her. I think the guy she brought with her might have been some kind of Vorin exorcist. So, I don’t think Lin could have gone public but could he have told his family but still kept the same story to the public as before? If we look at what Shallan was like immediately after I think this is clearly not possible – she doesn’t even speak for 6 months! There’s no way Shallan could have corroborated anything until it was too late. So I I’m not really sure what realistic alternatives Lin really had.
It still broke him. I’m not sure how much influence Odium had but I very much doubt it was direct. Brandon’s answer left a huge amount of room for interpretation. Personally, I think some of Odium’s Unmade are designed to cause various corrupting influences over a wide area – the affect would be small to most people, except to someone already broken like Lin.
I also wonder just how much Lin feared Shallan. There is the odd hint of that though it seems to lessen with time.
It’s also interesting to speculate just what would have happened if Shallan hadn’t repressed her memories, had kept her powers and had recovered quickly. She could have done amazing things… but it could have also gone horribly wrong. So many different tragedies in one house.
I personally think little Shallan’s ordeal illustrates why children should not be chosen for the Nahel bond…
@@@@@ 9 Gepeto
Seconded.
@10: Which makes us wonder why oh why did the Cryptics chose one little girl for their pet project of trying to bond another human centuries after the betrayal? Why did they risked it on a child? Brandon told us Cryptics like to work in group, which makes me believe the bonding process used more than one Cryptics. It is likely they chose Shallan, together. So why oh why did they chose a young girl? Was it because they thought a child would more easily manipulable to become what they think they need? The same way the Nightwatcher chose Lift, another child for her precious Edgedancers (the children of Cultivation)? Strangely enough, both sprens who bonded children are Cultivation aligned… Was it because they thought Jasnah, their older chosen, progressed too slowly and they thought a child would be more easy?
I can understand why Syl chose Kaladin, but Shallan is not such an obvious choice…
Going by Pattern, I’m not sure that Cryptics perceive humans in the terms we do. It seems more like we shine certain lights on their plane that draw them, the same way pain spren are drawn to pain without (I would guess) thinking much about the whys and wherefores of what’s causing that pain. Cryptics may not understand whether they’ve bonded to a child or adult till after the bond is formed.
I think the question about Lin is whether he had the ability to deal better with the results of his wife’s death or how much responsibility he bears for Odium’s control over him. Was he overwhelmed by more than he could withstand or did he succumb? Could he have told a different story that would have made the aftermath easier to deal with? Personally, I think the answer is yes to both, but that doesn’t mean I’m not wrong.
The question of why they bonded Shallan could be as simple as she was the only one around that possesses that quality. The cryptics could have tried looking around for other candidates but she was the only choice at the time. They were going to have to risk it all on Shallan. Which it turns out to be the right choice, in my opinion.
Wow! What a shift in opinion and conversation. From what I’m reading, I’m getting a feeling that many among us here are now against the Nahel bond, some even thinking that it is evil. Where did that idea come from?
Which comment gave you this impression? I personally do not think the bond is evil, but neither do I think the sprens are all innocent… In one of Dalinar’s visions, he is told by a Radiant to seek Urithiru. He didn’t promised he would be able to join one of the orders, but they always needed more fighters. Why would a random Radiant tell a random man he could perhaps join one of the orders if he seeked Urithiru if being broken by horrible tragedies in the main requirement to become a KR?
There are many things who do not add up when it comes to the Nahel bond. On one side, we are told all Radiants were broken. We have Kaladin who insists on being broken though my personal opinion is if he truly were “broken”, he would be curled up in a ball unable to move. He would be this image Shallan keeps having of herself, this little shivering girl she is afraid to become shall she allow herself to remember. This is being broken and we know this stage nearly destroyed her bond: the years following her mother’s death pratically killed Pattern. We have a WoB to confirm this.
Kaladin may have issues, but he is not broken. I know. Unpopular opinion, but I can’t shake the feeling out of my head a truly depressive individual with residual PTSD combined with seasonal depression would NOT be functional in real life unless he was loaded with heavy medications. Kaladin was functional before his bond even started to progressed, even better, he strove to protect others, to do better. He never gave up. He is exactly the opposite of a broken man! What he has though is doubts, issues, difficulties, hardships, bumps along the road which seem to have been placed there for the sole purpose of “testing him”.
However, since we are led to believe “being broken” is the utmost criteria, many readers have engaged in the guessing game: let’s guess what horrible tragic events lay behind the life of the known Radiants to justify their bond. Even better, let’s look at who has had a terrible past to root out the future Radiants…
Being broken has been over-stated. My personal take is you don’t need to be broken (in fact Radiants aren’t broken, I believe Syl just does not truly understand what being broken means), you need to be tested in your convictions as you can’t truly know what you are made of until you reach hardships. Just being “protective”, “pious” or “creative” is not enough. What is enough is if, once you reach the end of your rope, you still are those things. What is enough if once you face the possibility of just giving up in front of seemingly insurmountable obstacles and yet still chose to keep going. For me, this is what it means to be a Radiant. It is about worth, not about who got “lucky” enough to be born with a “disability” or to be dealt with a “terrible life”. Kaladin and Shallan’s pasts are outside of their control: they are not the driving agents, they are the victims of events. In a world where magic is earned and not inherited, how can the main criteria to be chosen be one that is completely outside your future knights control? Why is Elhokar considered a candidate (let’s forget about the shadows here, I am simply talking about the person to reinforce my point) simply for the fact his father was assassinated which led him to develop crippling paranoia?
I thus don’t believe future Radiants need to be “broken”, but they need to be “open” to the bond, which means “cracks in the soul”. For me, “cracks in the soul” are this: the moment when you contemplated abandoning, giving up, but chose not to (Kaladin). The moment where you stood strong in front of the world holding onto your beliefs despite facing adversity from all front (Jasnah). The moment you endorse of code of life and stick to it despite having become the laughing stock of an entire warcamp (Dalinar). The moment you decide to learn this skill you so wish you possess despite being years too old, sick and clearly not talented, sticking to it even if you look awkward and even being bold enough to join a mismatched crew to learn even more (Renarin). For me, these little events make up the Radiants, not their “horrible” past. It is not the tragedies of their life (events they don’t control) who draws the line, but what they do with themselves once they find adversity (events they can control).
In that optic, it is possible the sprens of old trialed their future knights before bonding them. It is possible they “created occasions” to see what they are truly made of. I have read the rational Tien’s death has perhaps been orchestred, unconsciously, by Syl. She is an old spren who had likely bonded other knights before. Perhaps she behave as they once did: by bending events to test their prospect. If he passes, then the bonding process starts.
So no the Nahel bond is not evil, but I don’t think it is all innocent either.
I suspect the Radiants themselves won’t fit neatly into good v evil categorization. Just because they’ve bonded a spren and oppose Odium doesn’t mean they’re good. It reminds of the Jedi from the original trilogy: tempting to think of as noble paladins but they’re really not.
@3, not surprising since mental and physical pain both activate the same centers of the human brain.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/body-sense/201204/emotional-and-physical-pain-activate-similar-brain-regions
@@@@@ 14 sheiglagh and 15 Gepeto
I’m probably at the very front of the pack of those that are mistrustful of Spren and the bond, but even I wouldn’t go so far as to call them “evil.”
I will without hesitation however say that it’s on the far side of foolish to assume the Honor and Cultivation Spren are “good” as we humans would traditionally consider them or that the Odium Spren are necessarily “evil.”
Rather I think they all have a massive case of Blue and Orange Morality going on. It seems reasonable that the Honor and Cultivation sprens’ interests more closely align with those of people (at times) due to the nature of their parent shards. But terrible things have been done throughout history for the sake of ‘honor.’
Nor should we assume that all Odium spren are metaphorical mustache twirling Dick Dastardly types that do “evil” for evil’s sake all the time.
And if the Stormfather or Nightwatcher are any clue, the major spren of Honor and Cultivation can’t truly be called benign.
So my honest opinion is: I don’t think any of them are completely trustworthy. Do spren like Syl or Wyndel, or Pattern necessarily want to harm their human partners? Probably not. But I absolutely think they view them at least in part as pieces on a chess board. And you don’t feel bad for your pawn when you sacrifice it to a knight to get at your enemy’s King.
ETA: By the way I consider my personal alignment to be Lawful Bacon.
@18: I am tempted to agree with you. While I do not believe the sprens purposefully want to hurt their human partners, their incomplete understanding of human nature combined with their strong need to keep the bond going to maintain their “conscience” may push them towards some actions we would frown on.
Funny how the discussion has dwindled down since we moved to part 4. I will start to believe I am not the only one who enjoyed it less than the other parts. How did we manage to make it to 100 posts a few weeks ago?
Regarding Radiants being “broken” I think there’s enough pointers within the books that this is a significant factor but also that it shouldn’t be taken too literally. Pattern comments about how Shallan “only cracked” rather than broke like others, possibly referring to her family – from his point of view, there are others who are more broken than Shallan but he didn’t find them interesting. So “more broken” doesn’t necessarily mean “more attractive to spren”. I suspect it’s more like there’s a sort-of “Goldilocks Zone” where bonding is possible and the human and spren can also expect to have a fruitful relationship. I’ve not gotten any sense that being “broken” matters much once the bond has really started – it feels like an initial condition rather than a long-term condition. Longer term what matters more is the mental compatibility between the spren and the human, like we see with Kaladin and Syl in WoR – if anything, Kaladin and Shallan as becoming less broken as their respective spren bond becomes deeper.
On a somewhat different subject, I suspect the typical selection criteria that spren used back in the day when Radiants were common would be quite different to now. They’re not coming in large numbers (yet) so they’re probably being a lot more careful. One possible reason why Pattern might have chosen Shallan is because he hoped a child would be less likely to kill him, for example. Lots of possibilities. I hope later on in the series we get some spren viewpoint chapters.
Gepeto – you are partly right that people are not commenting here because this is a very sad part of the book. It was hard for me to read it the first time and when I re-read (listen actually), I always skip Shallan’s flashback because it bothers me so much. Of course, there are times when I can’t skip because I’m driving. LOL So, I have to listen to the sad story.
But, perhaps another reason is that Thanksgiving Day here in the U.S. is next week, so many people are taking the week off to travel or if they are staying in town, they are waiting for their relatives to come and visit. Which means that those of us who work, this week is hectic because we are all trying to finish things that will be done next week because it is the end of the month. That is very true for me. I read the discussion but just don’t have the time to reply. I always think of replying, but before I know it, it’s time to go home.
Back to the discussion…
I always have felt that the Nahel bond is a symbiotic bond, with both the spren and the human benefiting from it. And yes, I agree, the spren are not benign. They have their own agenda. But, they cannot do it without the humans. But, I don’ t believe they mean the humans any harm. In fact, once the bond has been created, the spren becomes very vulnerable. If the human breaks the bond, they “die” (losing their mind is death for them).
I know that it is already canon that being “broken” is one of the criteria to be a KR. But, I still believe that there is a genetic factor. I don’t know why I still believe on that theory. Maybe on SA3, that theory will be proven wrong. But, I believe that Nahel bonds run in families. It just basically means that there a high probability for a spren to bond with certain individuals because of their bloodlines.
As for Shallan, I do believe she was not broken when Pattern first bonded with her when she was a child. And I don’t blame Shallan or Pattern for killing Shallan’s mother. It was definitely self defense. I actually blame Shallan’s mother because how can a mother (unless she is crazy) want to harm her child.
There are a lot of factors or even a backstory that has not been told yet about Shallan’s childhood. Maybe we will learn more through Rayse and the Ghostbloods.
As for Lin Davar – now, that is a broken man. Seeing his wife wanting to kill their only daughter, I believe that broke him. I believe that Lin Davar is a weak person to begin with. He is 4th dahn but impoverished for his class. And he did not have the brains or the wherewithal to run a successful estate. I believe that is part of the problem.
Too bad we are in this Chapter during the Thanksgiving break. If it we were with Kaladin again and his release from prison, this will be a lively discussion.
@@@@@ 19 Gepeto and 21 Sheiglagh
You’ve both hit the nail on the head for me. October through November are the busiest months of the year for me and the last couple of weeks in particular have put a hamper on how much time or energy I’ve had left over to put into comments. Couple that with some of the most depressing chapters that exist anywhere in Sanderson’s catalog and the only reason I pipe in at all is to be polite–and because Alice does such an incredible job with the reread.
On a related note, I’m not sure about anyone else but the website has also been acting up even worse than usual the last few days too.
I don’t know who their webhosting service is, but Tor is not getting their money’s worth out of the new version of their website. They could probably pay some 20-year-old $50 to build them a website from a wordpress template and still end up with something more stable and probably 80% faster to boot.
I also had more trouble than usual loading pages on TOR in the last few days, even on a fast computer. Why can’t we just return to the old site? At least that one worked.
@21: I can, for my part, part 4 is my least favorite part due to its too strong focus on Kaladin’s inner struggles which I thought were getting redundant by that point in time. I also disliked the chasm scene, but let’s keep this discussion for later. I suspect we are going to ramp up the comments when we get there. Nothing draws people to their keyboard more than another shipping war…. :-P
Ah well and no Thanksgiving here, just the urge to go buy gifts before the cursed Black Friday empties the stores again and leaves me with no Lego for my kids :-(
I must say I am getting even reluctant to say “being broken” is a criteria to become a KR. We do know the Nahel bond needs those cracks to form itself, but I have come to doubt the sprens choose their future knights based on them being “broken”. I suspect they choose them on their potential and hope/steer/force trauma around them to trial them and thus create the cracks they need to merge in.
I have been in so many discussions where commentators would list potential future knights based on who has lived horrific struggles… It seems wrong. How the most deterministic factor gratifying you with a Nahel bond be the one you don’t control?
I have jumped out of that wagon.
I now believe sprens first choose individuals based on their strong natural attributes, their potential and then gear them towards struggles or perhaps simply stay close for a period of time just to see.. Anyone who feels very strongly about something will meet hardships. This is a near automatism.
I don’t believe anymore they choose people based on their hardships. For instance, Lirin having lived through the “death” of both his sons does not make him more likely to become a KR.
@22: November has been surprisingly warm and sunny this year. I can’t complain. My jogging will be very enjoyable this afternoon :-)
On the nature of Spren;
You guys discussion brings to mind another fictional group of beings who aren’t necessarily evil but their mindsets are so alien to humanity it often manifests itself as such. I’m thinking about the Finn from WOT.
@24 Gepeto
I doubt being broken or not is entirely irrelevant, but I do agree the spren have no use for someone who is too broken. Past a certain point of trauma people either a. end up catatonic and/or insane like Shallan suggested or b. become revenge obsessed monsters like Kaladin very nearly did when he broke his oath. Either way is useless.
On the other hand, you don’t want to give power to someone who has never experienced hardship or tragedy or especially someone who has never seen the consequences of power misused either. The average lordling ordering servants around all day could too easily become a monster if given enough power to stop seeing others as people. Selfless habits of one flavor or another (depending on the spren) is, I suspect, at least as important a qualifier.
Novemeber has been warmer here than it was the last two years (which were unusually cold) as well right. It didn’t start dipping below the 60s during the day until just this weekend. Yesterday was the first time I started a fire at work since early spring.
@25 EvilMonkey
You’re right. The Finn , The Fae, The Sidhe, Tuatha De Danaan, etc. Whatever you want to call them, they are excellent examples of of creatures similar to how I think Spren should be viewed. Not so much good or evil as alien. Beautiful and often helpful, but frighteningly different.
@26: I have badly expressed myself. There is some relevance to it. However it struck to me sprens cannot be looking solely for “broken” individuals. I believe they are looking for individual with convictions, which do imply, as you said, hardships as untested convictions are only worth so much. For instance, it is easy to be pious when you are raised in a society of naturally devout people, it is a lot harder to be pious in a society who lives by the excess.
My point lies mostly with the notion of “breaking” we have all associated to the Nahel bond which is directly derived from Kaladin’s past trauma. We have come to believe all characters have suffered tragedies such as death of brothers in gruesome war, betrayal, slavery, starvation, torture, etc. I personally believe hardships do not need to come from traumas. You don’t need to live a life of misery to prove your worthiness. You don’t need to be born with a disability to be deemed worthy of becoming a Radiants, these events are all outside the control of the individuals, so to solely look for individuals with a terrible past seems horribly wrong to me.
I believe we are more or less saying the same thing. I agree some who would truly be broken is no use as a Radiant, just as someone who has never been tried could become a walking disaster.
I agree exhibiting some level of selflessness seems a requirement, the most demanding in that regards likely being the Edgedancers (loving).
I have no idea who cold 60 is… but it hasn’t drop below 0 yet over here, so it is considered warm. No snow yet either. Last year, November was 30 days of cold miserable rain.
@28 Gepeto
I apologize blame the ridiculous American measurements system I grew up with 60 F is roughly 15.5 C although it will drop below freezing here tonight.
And yes I think we are saying more or less the same thing too.
I check my thermometer this afternoon and I got to the conclusion 60F roughly was 15C which would be considered unbelievably hot for November over here. I think it must be close to the all time heart record. I wish it where 60F, I wouldn’t need to wear my Gore-Tex to run.
I also think we are more or less within an agreement minus a few technicalities.
@@@@@ 29 Gepeto
I live in the Southeast. It doesn’t actually get consistently “cold” per se until around January lasting through March. We do get a lot of rain however in the fall and winter months (which I find particularly unpleasant since like Kaladin I and several other members of my family have Seasonal Affective Disorder).
Speaking of which, Shallan and Kaladin seem to have opposite reactions to the Weeping and storms in general–and are also from allegedly opposed orders. If makes me wonder if unusual reactions to weather patterns have something to do with suitability to potential bonds or even be a side affect of them?
@30: It is 45F right now. I live much farther north… but no snow yet. Winter is fine, it tends to be very dry and sunny, when there is no snow storm. It isn’t so bad, when it does not get to horribly cold, at least it’s pretty with all the snow and we can go sliding, skating, skiing and winter jogging.
Typically, it is spring which is hard as it never seems to start quickly enough and it tends to be rainy. It also creates many conflicting worries: are we going to get a decent summer this year or not? Please let’s not make it like that awful cold rainy one we had once… I’d just, personally skip over April or have summer last from April 1st to November 1st.
I have read somewhere Brandon modeled Kaladin and Shallan’s respective reactions to the weeping on his and his wife respective reactions to the rain. I have seen many people made the rational that since Kaladin/Shallan’s reflects Brandon/his wife when it comes to reaction to the rain, then it must be because they are meant to be together… Of all arguments, that probably is the weakest one, IMHO.
I personally do not think it has anything to do with the bond: these simply are personality traits which I considered to be outside “choosing criteria”. I sincerely doubt Syl was purposefully looking for someone with seasonal depression. It all goes back to my early discussion: I believe sprens are looking for individuals able to influence their environment in a given way despite hardships life has thrown at them, not individual exhibiting particular disabilities. For instance, I doubt all Windrunners are season depressed and all Truthwatchers are autistic.
While I think spren are “alien” from a human’s perspective I don’t see them as being uncaring or indifferent to human suffering. The Recreance was painful and bitter for them but they don’t seem to have tried to get revenge on humans – they simply stayed away. Kaladin and Shallan seem to be becoming better people due to the influence of their respective spren and I expect that to generally be the case. I don’t see any evidence that spren seek to cause suffering in humans – even if they need someone “broken” to be able to form a Nahel Bond, because there’s few spren relative to humans I see no need to them to engineer situations in which humans can be “broken” as there’d likely be more than enough to go around.
Don’t forget that their existence depends upon humans. While some general spren respond to negative things we’ve not seen any KR spren that do so. The way some people treat spren seems a bit similar to how Kaladin treats Lighteyes, which makes me a bit sad.
I wonder how spren can determine if someone has been “broken”? Just through observation or can they feel the “cracks” in their soul that they can fill up? I don’t think it’s literally true that 100% of all KR ever were “broken”, though I suspect most were (or rather, “cracked”). My feeling is that the true technical requirement is for there to be cracks in the soul and while the easiest and by far the most common way for that to happen is to be “broken” (or rather, “cracked”) this is not the only possible way.
@32: I don’t think they can determine if someone is “broken”, but I think they can determine is someone has conviction. I think they can evaluate the strength of that conviction which means anyone who has gone through “ordeals” and maintain his moral ground would have more “strength” than someone who hasn’t. That’s more or less what I think Syl meant by “they were all broken”. They weren’t, but they all had strong enough convictions to stand by who they were against adversity.
I don’t believe all Radiants were beaten, tortured, enslaved, abused or rapes. I don’t believe all Radiants had skeletons in their closets, but they all had the same capacity to stand up for their beliefs, no matter what. Just the strain of this is enough to create cracks into anyone’s soul.
I’d also like to point out Kaladin is nearly too damage to be a KR… He nearly destroyed his bond because he couldn’t evolved. We see in his POV how his protective instinct, while it is supposed to be geared towards those who needs it, essentially is targeted towards people reminding him of Tien: helpless, unable to fight people. He only managed to protect Elhokar by linking him to Tien… It all goes back to Tien, because he is too damaged to let go. Hence, Kaladin is not exactly, in my opinion, prime material to become a Radiant. He may be one the most damaged, he may just be threshold pass which people just can’t pull it off.
@33: I think spren are smart and capable enough to do what you suggest – that they’re looking for someone with a specific “conviction” that is strong enough to survive adversity.
It would be interesting to know the details of Shallan’s childhood before Pattern turned up. It’s very hard to tell if she was “broken” or not at that point. I’m pretty sure there were things that made her sad but more than that is pretty much a guess. She might just be a good counter-example… or maybe not. For the one chapter we get with Ym, he doesn’t seem “broken” that I recall though he does certainly have a skeleton in his closet. As we see more examples hopefully things will become clearer.
For normal spren, we see that they are either attracted to physical things (fire, rain, heavy objects etc) or thoughts/feelings (pain, fear, joy, glory, creativity etc) so it stands to reason that spren who are capable of forming the Nahel bond can do the same, though in their case they’re looking for “higher order” thoughts/feelings. Not only that but those who want to form a bond a looking for more than a brief encounter but a long term relationship. From what Brandon has said it seems typical for it to take weeks/months for the bond to really form, even to a basic level. That’d certainly be enough time for the spren to evaluate the candidate.
I really wonder about Wyndle and Lift though. It wasn’t too keen on Lift originally – it was more like he was ordered to bond her. How does that fit within the framework…? Maybe the bond can be forced a bit rather than just slowly growing with time?
The spren are attracted to very specific things. Life attracts lifespren, fire attracts flamespren, and so on. It is that attraction that causes them to “choose” someone to bond with. There’s very little conscious choice about it, at least in spren that don’t prepare for the memory loss a la what Wyndle’s people did. Syl was attracted to Kaladin because of his honorable actions, and was able to bond because of his trauma and loss. Pattern was drawn to the Davar household because of the lies they told to themselves and others, and bonded to Shallan in order to come to her rescue when her mother went off the deep end. For Dalinar, even though he didn’t have the deep cuts that Shallan and Kaladin had in their respective psyches, had spent years fighting a war with no honor, no freedom, and no hope involved, which might have been enough of an opening to bond with the Stormfather.
@35: certainly spren are attracted to very specific things. For “dumb” spren this appears to be entirely automatic and predictable though I think spren that can form Nahel bonds are more discerning though exactly how much more is unknown – certainly it appears to be by choice. So I disagree with you there – I think Wyndle’s case is more of a forced choice but still a choice. There’s probably small variations between individual spren of the same species too, though this is more of a guess.
From what she says, the first thing that attracted Syl to Kaladin was his desire/actions to protect the younger soldiers though his honorable actions in general were what helped cement the bond. It’s interesting that in Kaladin’s case, Syl seemed to have chosen Kaladin and the bond got stronger even while he was a slave and had fewer opportunities to be honorable.
I don’t see any evidence that Pattern was attracted to the Davar household, only to Shallan. Also it appears much more likely that what set Shallan’s mother off the deep end was what Shallan was doing after she had already bonded Pattern – she certainly seemed to have advanced decent amount as a Lightweaver before her mother died.
The thing, is we don’t know how happy Davar family life was before Pattern bonded Shallan. Better than what followed her mother’s death, certainly, but isn’t it noteworthy that 3 out of the 5 children went to pieces under the pressure? That none of the younger boys attempted to run away from an intolerable situation and make their own way in the world? Which, as light-eyes of a comparatively high dan, they should have been able to do. It seems to me that they weren’t psychologically robust to begin with. And thus, could the alleged happy time preceding Shallan’s gain of surge-binding be yet another”great lie” that served to attract Pattern?
Oh, and BTW, whatever happened to Lin seems to fit that WoR blurb about something nefarious entering a cracked soul. That something else being Odium’s influence. Not that it excuses Lord Davar, as he let it in.
Concerning being broken… hm. Obviously, it is not the _only_ criterium for the Nahel bond, or all Davars would have been chosen. And, yea, back in the day people aspiring to become Radiants may have purposefully sought challenges that could open them to a bond. Perhaps, not even knowing that trauma was required, just being tested to the limit?
Which brings me to Lirin – I actually think that he is a very plausible candidate for Radianthood, if he managed to maintain his moral convictions despite the loss of his sons. He had been standing up for his beliefs and helping people in the face of adversity for his whole life, surely it should have been attractive to some spren orders.
Re: spren bonding children (Shallan, Lift) – maybe they are experimenting and hoping that being able to mold their partners while they are growing up would help to make another betrayal less likely? After all, we know that Wyndle would have preferred a mature person, but was overruled and forced to pick Lift. So, there is a purpose behind bonding children, IMHO, and it isn’t how things used to work in the past.
@37: I also hope there will be some in-world answers in future books about Shallan’s early life. Now that she’s cleared one hurdle at the end of book 2 (being able to think coherently about her mother’s death) hopefully that’ll open the window to a clearer view of that. We’re not going to get any more chapter flashbacks but maybe we could get a few lines/paragraphs here and there. I wonder what Truths remain for Shallan to speak – is there something in her past still? I think she has one big “Truth” to go before she becomes a full Radiant.
As far the Davar household goes before Shallan’s mother died, there’s all sorts of hints but it’s hard to say how reliable any of them are. I agree that the overall impression given isn’t a positive one. I have all sorts of ideas and speculations but I’m also prepared for them all to be wrong.
The Lirin we see from Kaladin’s point of view does seem like a good candidate though there might be some things that would put off spren that we can’t easily see. If/when spren start bonding humans in large numbers it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s one of them.
I wonder how spren view children, since the concept doesn’t really apply to them I think, though they probably have some related concepts. Depending on your timeline and objectives, bonding children could be a smart idea though also very risky. I suspect the back in the day that Radiants tried to discourage spren from bonding children though things are very different now. From the few examples we have though, children seem to be the exception – Jasnah, Kaladin, Dalinar, Renarin and Ym are hardly children.
Interesting discussion. We seem to all agree the “broken” requirement hardly is the only one. I even fished out an old WoB for us:
He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is ‘investing’. In a lot of his systems people are through some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris through the Shaod, In Mistborn it’s genetic, in The Way of Kings it depends on what someone has done.
It thus settled previous questioning regarding the hereditary of surgebinding: there is none. The fact many Kholins turned out being Radiants isn’t linked to genetic, more to upbringing. It also explains how the actions of given individuals are the driven factor when it comes to being chosen for an order and not some genetically related condition.
As for Lirin, I am on the fence about him. While he seems to act selfishly in his dedications to help others, he did steal the spheres for selfish reasons. Why many orders would likely not frown on thievery, I tend to believe intend matters more than anything and Lirin’s intend weren’t pure… He wanted to buy Kaladin an instruction. We can agree or disagree as to whether stealing to buy upscale education to you son is being selfish or no, but it may weight negatively in his personal balance.
@39: I seem to remember Brandon talking about the Stormlight archive having a contract based magic system but I can’t seem to find an actual quote.
I also feel that upbringing is a major factor – eg if Jasnah or Renarin were adopted but otherwise not obviously different to what we see then it would have minimal impact on their chances of bonding a spren. Of course, the particular genes you have will impact your personality in subtle and indirect ways but that’s more about random luck than inheriting a “mage gene”.
There’s probably other factors at play still though – some spren may prefer to cluster around others who have already bonded, for example. There’s logical reasons for spren to choose to do that, particularly in the current environment.
Other things being equal, do Lighteyes have an easier time bonding spren? If we presume they are descended from Radiants then there may be a small effect. Something similar could apply to others – eg those with some non-human blood, like Shallan via her Horneater blood.
Overall, I think it’s much more like the magic in Warbreaker than Mistborn in that the magic is theoretically available to everyone, though some have a small head-start.
Regarding Lirin, I’m not trying to pull you off your fence but if we consider Ym in comparison, I don’t think Lirin’s past misdeeds are too big a problem unless they’re more the “tip of the iceberg”. On the other hand, it’s possible that Lirin has gone dark in the years since Kaladin left or that his overall personality/attitude is not attractive to any spren even if some parts are.
@40: The only way I see surgebinding being remotely hereditary is by accepting disabilities such as Renarin’s autism naturally creates obstacles to be surmounted in order to maintain your level of conviction. Individuals born in a fairly “normal” environment would need to go through harsher time to test themselves as their natural state wouldn’t be able to provide them with sufficient struggle to prove their conviction to potential sprens. Just by being born autistic and by suffering from seizure, young Renarin ended up in a position where he was constantly tested to the point where he reached the required “broken/cracked” state to be the recipient of a bond. Forcing himself to remain true to his own conviction, to insist of being given the chance to learn to become a soldier was a struggle by itself simply due to his physical limitations. Had he been born “neurotypical”, he would have never faced these hardships and while he would likely remains little learned Renarin, that conviction would have remained unhardened by trials.
I am also thinking the Envisagers were not completely off the track when it comes down to it. We seem to all agree conviction without hardships are not worth much. We all agree the notion of “broken” more readily apply to the idea someone’s “nature” has to be tested against hardships. As someone else put it in another comment, it is easy to love others when you are being loved back: it is much harder to still care when there is nobody left to care for you. Back in the day, where Radiants were numerous it seems wild to think all had terrible past such as Kaladin, it is more likely they didn’t, but they still needed to have lived through enough trials to be deemed worthy… So what if the orders had a secret set of hardships specifically designed to uproot future knights? A minority would chosen in the wild such as Kaladin, but the majority would transit through Urithiru and providing they are deemed promising enough, they would allowed to take on the “test” as the end of which they “may” get chosen by a spren of a given order.
What then if distorted word of such an ancient practice got to the ears of the founder of the sect? They would then use what limited information they gathered to figure they need to trial themselves in harsh ways to become knights… which is not quite true, but it is not quite false either.
I both agree and disagree with Gepeto’s assessments. I agree that the ‘brokenness’ of would-be Radiants should not be taken literally. I believe that being a Radiant is inconsistent with an egotistical personality, much less, a Narcissistic one. Kaladin has a very strong ego notwithstanding his temporary episodes of depression. He is certain about his notions of society and people and expresses them. The challenges of his own survival and that of those whom he protects have served to ameliorate those tendencies. They still survive, however, until his willingness to violate his oath of protection causes him to lose his Surgebinding power. Then he gets to know Shallan and some of her history that models a better attitude following even greater challenges. His final willingness to protect a man, Elhokar, whom he has hated is what allows him to re-establish his bond with Syl and attain greater power. The lesson that he has finally learned is that being a Radiant is not about what it can do for him and his ego, but what it enables him to do for others – even those who may not seem too worthy.
Shallan’s life as a young girl is not well known. We get the impression that her father had behaved differently then, but that there was still friction between him and Shallan’s independent minded mother. Perhaps such friction was a cause of deep sadness in a sensitive, perceptive girl that caused her to seek escape by living in the scenes of her drawings. That combination of sadness and talent may have led the Cryptic spren, Pattern, to develop a bond with her.
In contrast to Gepeto, I find Lirin to be a very admirable person. While his taking of an indefinite loan from Wistiow could be considered stealing from his heir, Laral, it is mitigated by the consideration that the loan was intended to remain with Lirin’s family if the planned marriage of Laral to Kaladin actually happened. That marriage was prevented by Wistiow’s untimely death. In any case, the globe of gems was intended for the professional and life-saving use by him and, later, Kaladin. If this is the only ‘black mark’ against Lirin, it doesn’t diminish his high stature.
One of the things I hope to see later in the series is the early history of Roshar and how much has changed since then. The spren bonding humans was not planned or intended – it was more of an accident. The Heralds were most certainly not an accident but the spren tried to imitate them. It’s interesting to speculate how things might have developed if the spren had figured out how to bond humans but had nobody to imitate – probably a lot of the “rules” we take for granted about Radiants might simply not exist or be radically different.
I see the spren who bond humans today as having evolved slowly over thousands of years – at the start they were probably more “ordinary” spren but their repeated interactions with humans made them smarter and more capable and in turn the humans viewed them as different, creating new species of spren. For example, I think honorspren evolved from windspren, that the Cryptics possibly evolved from creationspren and the Edgedancer’s spren maybe from lifespren. The Stormfather seems to be a special case.
It’s possible that the Heralds had Oaths/Ideals etc and the Radiant Ideals etc came from this. Maybe they were imposed on the Radiants and their spren instead, somehow (something Bondsmiths could do? Honor/Tanavast? The Stormfather?) The first/common Ideal certainly feels like it was artificially added because the effect of swearing it seems weak and it’s different to everything else.
This is not to say that swearing the Ideals / speaking Truths is unimportant. The effect they have for Kaladin, for example, is huge (except the first one). It feels like when this step occurs it brings the human and spren much closer at the cognitive level and maybe spiritual level too. They become more closely synchronised and I suspect this leads to permanent changes, even if the bond breaks later. I suspect some of the details of this advancement (strengthening the bond) are artificial (imposed from outside) or a result of imitating the Heralds but it also feels such an intrinsic part of the human-spren bond (due to various WoB) that I think there is some underlying factor going on. I think this underlying factor is due to Honor’s nature as a Shard, maybe Cultivation too – it’s the Shard(s) that are giving rise the the contract based magic system.
As far as I understand it, if Kaladin had never spoken The Words near the end of book 1 then eventually his fledgling bond with Syl would have unravelled. I’m pretty sure the Ideal/Words have to be sincere to have an effect – it feels more like they are proof of a strengthening bond rather than coming from nowhere. If the human and spren can’t synchronise well enough then advancing becomes impossible. This appears to be the most critical aspect of the Nahel bond – no matter the other qualities (including how “broken”) the human has, if they don’t match the spren then the bond cannot progress.
I wonder how particular each individual spren is. For example, compared to other honorspren how easily would it be for Kaladin to form a bond with them? I certainly think the chance of success would be below 100% but how far below I’ve no idea. It could even be 10% or less, depending how individualistic spren are. If so then Wyndle and Lift were very lucky to get along eventually – alternatively, they could be evidence that a more forced situation can still lead to a strong Nahel bond providing that the human has the right sort of qualities for the Order.
How important is it to be “broken”? I suspect there’s a real technical aspect to the bond here but it’s not an absolute rule. For example, water boils at 100C, right? Well, that’s only true with the atmospheric pressure at sea level – on top of Everest I think water boils at about 70C. I think being “broken” is a real hurdle but the height of the hurdle is variable, depending upon the individuals – if a particular pair are an especially good fit then the hurdle is lower.
So yeah, I don’t think the Envisagers were completely wrong either but their incomplete understanding meant that they were never likely to succeed.
@42: I agree many readers have the tendency to take the “broken” criteria as rather literal. Reinforced by reading Kaladin’s story arch, many have conclude that to become a Radiant, you first need to be “broken” which feels like putting the carriage in front of the horses. I especially dislike reading long list of “future Radiants” where the only choosing criteria is the “brokenness”. Oh X is definitely “broken”, he will become a KR… Not quite. Not as I understand it.
Come to think of it it is probably why I don’t put much faith in Lirin becoming one. I am not sure his convictions are strong enough, solid enough for him to join an order. The stealing of the spheres weights heavily against him. His motives weren’t evil, but neither were they completely pure. My understanding is Wistiow agreed to paid for Kaladin’s scholarship providing he later marries Laral: an arrangement which was nullified on the day he died. At that point in time, any union between Kaladin and Laral became impossible. Therefore, Lirin stole the spheres for the sole purpose of giving Kaladin his instruction and while it may be understandable, it wasn’t grand or devout of any any ego-centrism. I’m thus not willing to move from my I must also admit I am not keen on seeing Kaladin’s family becoming KR as well.. we already have one KR family with the Kholins, it would feel much to contrived if we were to get another one. However, I agree this hardly is an objective argument, more of a personal feeling.
Good take on Kaladin’s ego. It is gigantic and it causes his bond to nearly break. I know this isn’t a popular opinion, but I am slowly stating to think Kaladin isn’t a prime example of what a Radiant should be… In fact, I now think he barely meets the requirement to get there as I doubt nearly killing your spren was once part of your average KR learning curve. The same goes for Shallan… Strange how our first example turn out being nearly disastrous ones.
@43: I agree oaths without conviction or understanding are likely to do none. I also agree their purpose seem to increase or deepen the bond between the spren and the human, making them more “in sync” as you suggested.
On the side note, part 1 of book 3 has three characters we should be able to guess. Any guessers? I am growing terrified of book 3…. I can’t believe I may have to wait part 2 to get certain POV…
@44: Considering Words of Radiance’s part 1 started with 3 POVs as well and it didn’t include your favorite character, I think your fears may be well-founded.
Although if it comes down to speculation, it’s really only that third spot anyways right? If we take the early version of chapter 1 for book 3 that was Kaladin, and it’s Dalinar’s flashback book so that seems like a lock for all parts as well (I guess arguably we could say that for Kaladin anyways, but moving forward that might deviate which is why I’m going off more towards the snippets we’ve already seen).
And yeah I would guess Shallan for that third one, considering the situation and how along with Kaladin she’s always been a POV in the first parts. While I understand it’s frustrating, I think from an intrigue perspective it also makes more sense to see Adolin but not his perspective early on. Make us stew on how he might be reacting to events at the end of Words of Radiance.
Been a while since I posted, partially because of the season and other things. Won’t be back tomorrow since it’s Turkey Day and I’ll be busy, but a few thoughts I had:
1) on Broken-ness, I have to agree with the sentiment that it’s not meant maybe as literally as could be inferred. Although part of this I would “blame” on classic Sanderson misdirection: broken has a very obvious interpretation which was of course reinforced by our first two major proto-Radiants, but it can mean plenty of things.
2) on spren choosing humans: Personally I wonder if it depends on the order/spren to what degree someone can be “chosen,” and this is with the assumption we can trust Wyndle’s perspective on things. Maybe honorspren are just more…”romantic” in their interpretations of the bond, but Syl always seemed to imply that really she could only have chosen Kaladin, like they were somewhat fated for each other (“romantic” in this case being more in the classical sense of putting a nicer spin on things). Of course, it also could just be a side effect of Pattern and Syl both still being a bit scatter-brained from their time when the bond was weaker. I think @43 raised an interesting question in this regard: is it just 1 spren per 1 person that works, or is there a range of compatibility, i.e. Syl and Pattern had choice but their respective humans were the closest match?
3) Shallan’s life pre-flashback: This is a more difficult topic for me. While I don’t think it was all sunshine and roses, I suspect that their household was still alright. They had problems but they could work through their dysfunction to stick together as a family. But once disaster struck it just magnified the underlying issues and weakened the feelings that maybe used to make them work. But I feel like the household couldn’t have been too bad, even subconsciously, before what happened because we don’t actually see it (and if it was I think Sanderson would have given us a more solid glimpse…unless of course this is meant to be one of Shallan’s deeper Truths but I don’t feel that’s the case).
4) Lirin: Kind of surprised he came back in the discussion part, but I’ll bite. I actually look at the scene where he admits to “stealing” the spheres to Kaladin a bit differently: it’s one of those scenes where you can see something of the son in the father (it would be the other way around but we see more of Kaladin so he’s what we have to work with more lol). Lirin clearly feels guilt for the action even though he pushed on with it – as he tells Kaladin, sometimes you need to know when to let go. But Kaladin has that trait even worse than Lirin which is why it’s so much harder for him to let go of things. But FWIW, while they were on loan with the expectation that they would eventually feed back into Laral’s family when they paid for Kaladin’s education and he married her, they kind of deserved them anyways imo. Lirin was offering a valued service without charge except for anything people would donate to keep his family fed/clothed. While Kaladin/Laral were intended as the end result of those spheres, they were also basically an investment in the medical infrastructure of the town. Alas Lirin just didn’t make sure to get that in proper writing which is why he had to force Wistiow to sign that statement while mentally unsound – a mistake on his part, but one I can very much sympathize with. Lirin feeling guilt seems to me to be more a bit of insight into how his personality shares some similarities with his son’s, not that ultimately he was in the wrong.
That’s just my 2 cents anyways…and it’s very wordy. Side effect of not commenting for a while probably, sorry!
@45: I made the same analysis as you and I came to the same conclusions as you, hence my despair. I believe I may not be speaking solely for myself in saying Adolin’s POV is highly anticipated, so to think we may not get it until much later in book is the most horrible of feelings. It confirms my worst fears: we didn’t get his POV following the duel, we didn’t get his POV following the chasm scene and now it looks as we are likely not getting his POV after the most important cliffhanger of WoR. I personally would not mind if Kaladin’s homecoming was postponed until part 2, but it seems unlikely to happen. So since we are stuck with Kaladin, there two open “obvious” spots: I thus conclude they must be regular POV and not new ones. So either he interlace Kaladin’s chapter with Urithiru or he interlaced them with something else. If it is Urithiru, then it likely is Kaladin/Dalinar/Shallan, though I don’t believe we need Shallan in there, but it seems doubtfull she would be dropped. If it isn’t Urithiru, then it likely is Kaladin/Szeth/?, people on Twitter seem to think it may be. Anyway, I dunno what I expected, probably Dalinar/Adolin/Shallan or Dalinar/Adolin/Kaladin or any combination including Adolin. It has been rather clear from the start my favorite character was the only one not getting development, so huh. Big, big deception though.
For the rest:
1) Yes. I should also add I have seen readers corrolate surgebinding to allomancy and thus insisting on the “broken/snapping” aspect of it. While we all agree “crack or openess” are required, how deep these need to be is still to be seen.
2) I agree about Syl and her “quest for Kaladin”. I personally don’t believe Kaladin was the only individual on Roshar she could have bonded with, but he is the first one she was attracted to. When she says she searched for him for the longuest time, I interpret it as she search for a proper knight and couldn’t find one until she met him. I may be so bold as to call it “love at first sight”. Wyndle clearly did not choose Lift and is clearly unhappy with being bonded to her, but they are progressing: I thus tend to believe sprens are compatible with more than one person, but yes I would call Syl “romantic”.
3) I don’t feel Shallan’s deepen truth is related to her family. We had two already on that subject. She has finished regressing and hiding the truth. I believe whatever else she has to admit will be regarding her future. I too do not feel there are many more skeleton hidden into her past, else it would have been the topic of the flashbacks: it wasn’t. The main topic instead was how she regressed…
4) See I have a problem when you say Lirin deserved them. It is the same problem I have when others say Kaladin deserved to have a boon. Both father and son take into their hands to award themselves artifacts which aren’t theirs to claim. Just as Kaladin’s boon wasn’t his to make, Lirin’s spheres weren’t his to steal. And yes, it was stealing. If Lirin thought he deserved better paiement for his services, he could have asked for it. The fact remained whatever “non-official agreement” Lirin had (or not, we only have his word to go by) with Wistiow, it fell apart when he died. The spheres weren’t his to take, especially now they would have been solely used to upgrade his own son’s status. There is no telling is mentally sound dying Wistiow would have still given the spheres to Lirn… I thus disagree with the thievery.
STBLST @42 et al:
I really don’t think that Lirin’s designs on Laral mitigate anything. In fact, they are much worse than the theft, IMHO – and Lirin’s low point. Wistiow was a city lord – i.e. not at the very bottom of a lighteyes hierarchy like members of the 10th dan. The 100 marks were just a part of his capital, which, presumably, would have been inherited by Laral, even though she couldn’t inherit his title. In fact, isn’t it why Roshone wanted her for his own son and then himself?
Do we know, BTW, that citylord titles are hereditary?
But anyway, marrying Kaladin would have been a huge, huge social descent for Laral. And for what? It isn’t like she actually loved him or anything, they had the sort of childhood friendship that kids thrown together by circumstances often have, nothing more. That plan to marry them was pure greed on Kal’s parents’ part… and if Wistiow actually was on board with it (which I doubt), he was sacrificing his daughter’s future in the name of his own friendship with Lirin.
Now, don’t take me wrong, marriages between people from different social strata can suceed, but it does require a basis of genuine, deep love and a lot of work. I see zero foundation for this between Kal and Laral, in fact, it is a purely exploitive plot meant to benefit Kaladin (and his family) at the cost of Laral, who would have gotten nothing out of it and lost much.
Nevertheless, where healing and serving community was concerned, Lirin’s convictions were indeed quite firm and proven over the years in the face of considerable adversity. If he managed to remain true to them after the (alleged) deaths of his sons, then he would, indeed, be one of the most plausible candidates for the Radianthood from among the background characters, once the spren begin to bond en masse. Yes, he does have moral failings in his past, but so did Jasnah and Ym, and theirs were arguably much darker, particularly the former’s. Like them, he’d be very much on the Cultivation side of the spectrum, so I see no barrier there due to principles of the spren.
Gepeto @41:
Yes, I agree that Envisagers may have been on to something. They may even have been working from some garbled rendition of trials that hopefuls aspiring to the bond may have chosen to undergo in order to attract attention of the spren pre-Recreance. Purposefully controling the “brokenness” aspect, as it were.
P.S. Re: 3 PoVs, I am hoping for Dalinar, Jasnah and Kaladin. While Kal is not my favorite character, I really want to learn about what happened at Hearthstone ASAP, I am burning to know about Jasnah’s journey through the realms of spren, and I am very curious re: both Dalinar’s past and current challenges that he faces.
@47: Yes, it is interesting you bring forward the fact Wistiow likely ranked too high to justify having to marry his only daughter to a darkeye. Back in WoK, Renarin muses over the fact he could always become a “city lord” and thinks of it in disdain. Renarin is of the 3rd dahn which makes it plausible Wistiow was, at the very least, 5th dahn. In any advent, he was not of the lower dahn as these individuals don’t live any differently than the darkeyes.
I agree it is suspicious Wistiow would have gone forward with marrying his daughter to such a poor prospect. NOw don’t get me wrong, Kaladin is a nice guy and everything, but as a surgeon he would likely not bring home a large income, he has no name to himself and their children would barely rank higher than darkeyes unless they are lucky enough to be born with light eyes and even then. It would be a tremendous drop in station for Laral which makes me wonder how much of the “arrangement” was wishful thinking on Lirin’s part. Had there ever been an agreement between him and Wistiow or did they just casually talked about it without being serious?
I also wish to add Lirin muses a few times on how hard his forefathers worked to raise the family to the 2nd dahn, which led me to believe he takes rank seriously. He wants his eldest and best son to train in Karbranth even if he can’t afford it, he wants him to marry a lighteye so he could gain even more rank and he purposefully arrange it to have his son play with the one lighteyed girl as often as possible in order to steer a possible romance…. IMHO, it is not a complete hazard Kaladin was allowed to have free afternoons…
Of course Lirin is quite dedicated to his healing, but I cannot say of his dedication is the same Radiant have exhibit. It could be or it could not be: I am truly sitting on my fence here. However, I admit my personal feelings do not want Lirin or Hesina to become Radiant, just as I don’t want Elhokar or Navani to as well. I would prefer if the minor Radiants were taken out of side characters unrelated to our main protagonist. One Radiant family is enough.
As for the POV, ah well, I must say I believe Jasnah is even less plausible than Adolin. Brandon said WoK Prime has spoilers for her story arc in books 6-7 while confirming she would be a major character then. I thus suspect we won’t see much of her until then. I classify it as highly unlikely she would become a major POV in book 3. The formulation of the Twitter led me to believe the 3 POV were expected, which I assume must mean actual POV characters. Among the most important ones we have: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin, Szeth and Eshonai, the last two having never had POV into the main story arc. Since I don’t believe Brandon is going to reduce Kaladin’s page time in book 3 (much to my own despair), it will likely be Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar. I personally do not think we need that many present time Dalinar POV: his past is more interesting than his present, IMO, I thus do not think he will have as many POV as Kaladin in book 1 and 2.
In a previous post I speculated that the Ideals for the various Radiant orders might be borrowed from Oaths that the Heralds might have sworn or Ideals that they stood by. However, I’m not sure how the Truths that the Lightweavers need to speak fit into that.
So far, Lightweavers are the only Order to have a completely different method of advancing… though we haven’t yet seen how half the Orders advance. It may be that whatever Oaths/Ideals the “Herald of Beauty” stood by couldn’t be converted into a method for advancement for Radiants and so the Cryptics had to improvise. It could be that they could have been converted but that the Cryptics rejected the idea for some reason. Or maybe my idea is just plain wrong.
I wonder what the Heralds were really “for” – what was Honor’s intended purpose for them? It could be that they were always intended to help the battle against Odium or maybe they pre-date that. If we equate them to an army, then what was the “Herald of Beauty” for? Not standing around looking pretty that’s for sure (I’m presuming that people have forgotten her “proper” Herald title). After seeing book 2 I think a lot of readers would suggest espionage because of what Shallan did but I think that wrong for several reasons – espionage would not be very useful against Odium’s troops, it doesn’t really seem to differentiate them from the Lightweaving that Truthseers should be capable of, though thrilling the espionage aspect wasn’t actually very important for the overall story and because I think other things she did were more significant. Creating an espionage specialist doesn’t feel very suitable for “Honor” either.
If Shallan is fairly typical of her Order then equating them to part of an army they could do just about anything except actual physical combat or combat training – recruiting, supplies, research, tactical analysis, planning, strategy, personnel management, diplomacy, cartography and yes also scouting and espionage. Probably not so good at healing wounds or overall leadership though. But is there something they could specialise in? Something they’re uniquely good at?
I might be completely wrong here but I think Shalash’s proper title would be “Herald of Hope” or something like that. It’s rather subtle perhaps but I think the most significant thing Shallan does for other people is to give them hope or at least help them improve. I’m pretty sure she helped Jasnah this way. She very definitely helped Kaladin with the crisis he was facing for the whole book. Dalinar very clearly tells her that she gave him hope. She very overtly does this with the deserters. She hasn’t always been doing this intentionally though but think this is how Lightweaving and Soulcasting combine in a subtle way – if necessary she can magically heal minds. This is a very dangerous skill and probably why it’s important for Lightweavers to be honest with themselves.
When facing an enemy like Odium who seems to like to encourage negative emotions in humans I think someone who can give hope, encouragement and morale to the troops and leaders would be extremely useful. Even without mental attacks there’s a lot of mental trauma in war so a combined morale officer, psychiatrist and counsellor would help a lot, long-term.
Well… that’s my best guess at least. Anyone got any other thoughts?
@48: I don’t think Lirin has done anything that would definitely or even likely disqualify/prevent him from forming a Nahel bond. However, I don’t find the prospect exciting or interesting as things stand – I’m with you from a story-telling point of view. I think possibility of whether Sebarial might become a Radiant far more interesting, for example.
I presume when book 3 is near release Tor will publicly release some early chapters, maybe even covering most of Part One. So we probably won’t have to wait for the book’s actual release.
I think the only character who has to be in Part One is Dalinar. The rest is up for grabs, I’d say, depending on where the overall book is going and what ground needs to be laid for the rest of the book. For example, Kaladin’s journey doesn’t “feel” critically important to the overall book so he could be more of a background thread for much of the book. Ditto Jasnah and Szeth. There’s no reason similar things couldn’t happen to the other characters either, except Dalinar – because having all his flashbacks without anything in the current plot to tie it to would be a poor story. Renarin should definitely get some viewpoints in book 3 but is he going to be significant enough to appear in Part One? We just don’t know.
Basically, until I know more about the book I’m not going to stress about such details.
ChrisRijk @49 – The various things associated with each Herald are, I’m told, often more about Vorin tradition than about the Heralds themselves. I would suggest that “Herald of Beauty” is more a traditional title associated with Shalash than anything to do with her original purpose as one of the Heralds.
@several re: POVs in the next book – as has been said several times, it all depends on how Brandon chooses to structure the book, and that depends on what he thinks will be the most effective way to tell the story. Considering how much I’ve enjoyed his work so far, I see no reason to think that his judgement in effective story-telling will suddenly fail; therefore, it seems reasonable to expect that the three POV characters in Part 1 will be the right ones to tell the story that needs to be told in order to get to Part 2 and some other POV characters. Given the number of characters identified so far as those the readers hope to see, it’s safe to say that not everyone will get their wishes fulfilled.
I’ll bet the story will be awesome anyway. Just sayin’.
The Heralds don’t necessarily all have to have some role in war. They seem to help people rebuild civilization to prepare for a Desolation. Art could be an important part of that.
On Heralds and roles, I personally don’t believe the orders had defined functions. They had defined attributes, but I suspect we can all agree there are various ways to be brave and protective, just as leadership can express itself in different formats: not all Windrunners were soldiers and while the majority may have been, I wouldn’t be surprised if some were politicians.
@52: On POV in books… Ah well, you are right of course, but my main source of anxiety regarding the next book is I constantly worry the story Brandon wishes to tell is not the story I wish to read.
“…my main source of anxiety regarding the next book is I constantly worry the story Brandon wishes to tell is not the story I wish to read.” Hmmm. Can’t help you with that one…
There are things I think I’d like to see, and there are theories I hope to see proven – or in some cases, disproven. But the story is his, my hopes and theories notwithstanding. Also, I’ve never yet been disappointed by where he ended up, or even how he got there; he comes up with way better stories than I can, so I have no complaints.
@54: Ah well, I haven’t been disappointed by Brandon yet, but I keep fearing I will. Does it make sense? I wish the uncertainties concerning the follow-up of the series weren’t on the items I am most interested in.
I wish I was as wise as you, alas I am not, so I angst. It is not so much I wish for my theories to be proven or disproven, I can deal with being horribly wrong, it is a more matter of higher level choices. I had the same feelings while reading WoT, I constantly wished Jordan would spend more time fleshing out the Forsakens, alas he didn’t. Stories I deeply care about have a knack for never going where I wish them to go.
Brandon hasn’t deceive me yet, so my expectations are perhaps much higher this time. I wish to read a story, I will read a story, but will it be the story I so want to read or will it remain, alas unwritten?
@51 Wetlandernw – I agree. Do you have any ideas about what Shalash typically did though during Desolations? What do you think of my “hope” suggestion?
@52 birgit – well certainly the Heralds are not all suited to combat from what we know currently. In comparing Heralds to an army though I specifically brought up non-combat roles though – an army isn’t just a group of soldiers – so yes, I agree that the Heralds aren’t just about war and some are more suited to non-war activities than others. But, as soon as Heralds turn up a Desolation will start to develop so the priority would likely be to prepare the world for war and when the Desolation ends the Heralds have to leave. So how is art going to help and why art? Because Lightweavers are typically artists? But they are chosen for their personality/creativity not their artistic skills – I think the association between Lightweavers and artists is due to a common underlying factor rather than something direct.
There’s a bit of a clue in Taln’s Interlude, where he talks about what a few of the Heralds will do to prepare for the coming Desolation:
This was apparently based on the times before the Radiants were on the scene, from the context of his comments. Assuming all Surgebinding in those times had to be done by the Heralds, it seems that Battar and Shalash would have done the Soulcasting. Jezrien would have trained the generals, while Taln trained the soldiers; Kalak taught the making of weapons; Vedel taught the healers. It seems reasonable that the individual skills of the Herald combined with the Surges they access would contribute to each one’s role in preparing humanity to fight. Pretty sure that when it came time to fight, though, all ten of them were out there fighting at some point.
@57 Alice
What I find curious about Taln’s little monologue is how he mentioned “so much is always lost between desolations” as though he still in his half-insane fugue–fully expected them to have been knocked back into the stone age at the end of the last desolation we saw in the WoK prologue and not out of it by the time they all returned.
Instead, based on Dalinar and Navani’s inferences, their civilizations are anything more technologically and militarily advanced than any that have come before.
The Knights Radiant likely have a lot to do with this and the other nine heralds all surviving the previous final battle (especially if they had never existed prior to that cycle).
I’m thinking the biggest obstacle faced by the “good guys” this time isn’t military strength or knowledge it’s integrity and personality. They’ve got a bunch of smart but egotistical Lews Therin types instead of a Rand Al’Thor to borrow blatantly from WoT.
I believe I’ve said it before, but it bares stating again, Vorinism’s Machiavellian tenets have poisoned the minds of the Alethi and Vedan peoples.
wcarter @58 – I was really thrown the first time I read Taln’s little monologue. It seemed he remembered the Knights Radiant only vaguely, as sort of a little start-up venture Ishar thought might be a thing to try recently, rather than as the established force they seem to be in the Prelude. I sort of had to assume that four and a half millennia of isolation and torture messed with his memories – so he could remember the constants, like who the other Heralds were and what they did, but he forgot more recent developments like the KR and the Silver Kingdoms. And of course, those same millennia passed with no Desolations, so this time humanity finally had the chance to do more than survive being thrown back to stone-age technology.
And I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment of both the Lews Therin types and Vorinism’s more bizarre tenets. :)
@@@@@ 59 Do we have any real idea how long previous desolations or the time between them tended to last? I had assumed the time between previous cycles was several orders of magnitude shorter.
The Knights Radiant might have only been around for one or two cycles or even a dozen. But the Heralds don’t seem to ever age, so Taln’s since of time is probably jacked even when he’s not insane from 4,000 years of fire and brimstone style torture.
But even if the KR were only formed at or around the previous Desolation then lasted several millennial after that, they would still have been around for over a hundred generations. More than enough time to make them a venerable and even ancient order in the mind of humans while still little more than a Go Fund Me start up to an immortal Herald who was busy doing other things at them time.
I got the impression Taln had been reset to factory defaults; unable to do more than repeat the basic plan Honor set up for the Heralds. Since the KR came later, they aren’t included in the memories he has reliable access to. Unpleasant thought: whatever deal the Oathpact was, it means Taln was unable to let go of the basic programming. He babbles it because everything else was wiped away by the torture.