Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last time, Kaladin seemed to be fighting depression, Shallan hid in the darkness while Amaram attempted to interview Talenel, and as a result of her work she was welcomed into the Ghostbloods. This week, we go back in time again, as Shallan tries to make a difference for her family.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 65: The One Who Deserves It
Point of View: Li’l Shallan
Setting: Davar Estate, Jah Keved
Symbology: Inverse Pattern, Palah, Vedel
IN WHICH Shallan marvels at the concept of freely choosing one’s own role; encouraged by the thought, she begins to take action and develops her plan for Balat, Eylita and Malise to get away from the danger and gloom of the Davar estate; as she cares for Malise’s injuries, she reveals her plan for them to escape; Malise is doubtful and bitter.
Quote of the Week
“If I go,” Malise whispered, “and Balat with me, who will he hate? Who will he hit? Maybe you, finally? The one who actually deserves it?”
“Maybe,” Shallan whispered, then left.
This conversation always makes me wonder… Does Malise know anything about the past? Does she know that Shallan, and not her father, killed the previous Lady Davar? If she doesn’t, why does she think Shallan is the one who actually deserves it? Shallan’s “infractions” for the past 15 months or so have been minimal, in order to avoid anyone else being hurt in her name. Does Malise see indications that Lin turns any developing anger at Shallan toward herself and/or Balat? Or does she just think it’s unfair that Shallan apparently never gets in trouble?
I’ll probably never know.
Commentary
Oddly—or perhaps not—I find the section from Jasnah’s book and Shallan’s response to be the most compelling aspect of this chapter.
I say that there is no role for women—there is, instead, a role for each woman, and she must make it for herself. For some, it will be the role of scholar; for others, it will be the role of wife. For others, it will be both. For yet others, it will be neither.
Shallan’s reaction strongly demonstrates the differences between their personalities and their backgrounds:
Highlady Kholin talked about the nobility of choice, as if every woman had such opportunity. The decision between being a mother or a scholar seemed a difficult decision in Jasnah’s estimation. That wasn’t a difficult choice at all! That seemed like a grand place to be! Either would be delightful when compared to a life of fear in a house seething with anger, depression, and hopelessness.
Not to diminish Jasnah’s work to free herself from the tyranny of Expectations, but it makes me itch just a little to smack her upside the head and remind her that she’s had it pretty easy, all in all. And of course, the same question comes in other flavors: not merely whether a woman should have the freedom to choose her place, but a darkeyed farmboy, or a lighteyed artist, or… you could supply plenty of other examples, amiright? For that matter, a highprince’s sons are pretty restricted, too.
The thing is, as nice as Jasnah’s ideology sounds, there are things I don’t think she understands. Or she doesn’t accept them, maybe. People don’t function that way very well, and societies even less so. One reason, I suppose, is that people as a whole are too ready to believe that they have no power to choose. More importantly, though, many people actively and deliberately accept the responsibilities they were born into, and however unhappy they might be in their work, they stay because other people—family—depend on them. (Jasnah doesn’t actually have that kind of experience…) Still and all, people tend to like to know where they’re supposed to fit. Then if they’re unhappy, they can blame it on whatever superficial factors keep them there, without having to actually make the choice and the related sacrifices to do something they claim they would rather do.
One philosopher I know has said that we always choose what we most want, and on the whole I believe he’s right. Many a morning I thought what I most wanted was to stay in bed, certainly way more than I wanted to get up, put my face on, and get dressed… but it turned out that I wanted a paycheck more than I wanted the extra sleep. I chose the thing I wanted most overall, not merely for the moment; I think the same can be said of all choices we make. Unfortunately for Jasnah’s philosophy, what people mostly want is to be accepted and approved by society, or their chosen subgroup of society.
And… I’m about to stray into social criticism, so we’ll head that off now.
There are, however, things that we could all learn from her ideals:
Do not mistake me in assuming I value one woman’s role above another. My point is not to stratify our society—we have done that far too well already—my point is to diversify our discourse.
This is an area where I think our modern society fails miserably. And… I have so much to say about it, that I’m not going to say anything at all. Just that we need to stop with the idea that someone is “wasting his/her life” by making a choice that doesn’t appeal to our own priorities.
Moving on with the story… It strikes me again that Shallan doesn’t realize what is behind her father’s “self-control” toward her. She honestly thinks it’s because he loves her so much that he restrains himself for her sake—a Moral Event Horizon of sorts, perhaps. While I do think that was his original position, it doesn’t appear to have ever crossed Shallan’s mind that her father is afraid of her. He knows, if she doesn’t, that if he threatens her to the point of injury or death, she could pull a Shardblade on him. Deep down, of course, she knows she could do that—but she’s never made the connection from her Blade to her father’s fear-instilled self-restraint.
Speaking of her father, this rather gives me the shivers:
He looked up as she walked back into the feast hall. She set the cup before him, looking into his eyes. No darkness there today. Just him. That was very rare, these days.
Even with “no darkness, just him,” he’s pretty scary by now. He’s been twisted and wrung out so hard. I still feel sorry for him, but he’s gotten bad. Right here, he’s trying hard to rationalize what he’s doing when the darkness is there, but the fact that he’s trying to justify his earlier actions is… creepy. “No one will listen. The litter was all runts anyway.” It’s all someone else’s fault. Pretty sure he knows it’s not, though, or he wouldn’t have to try so hard.
Poor Balat. This was just too much. He’s back to… well, not quite to where he was, reveling in the violence of the axehound fights, but back to petty cruelties against small critters. He doesn’t have the backbone to stand up to his father, and he doesn’t have the skill to do it even if he did have the spine. All he can do is shiver, tear apart cremlings, and hope his little sister can figure it out for him. He’s not someone I can like, but I do feel sorry for him.
Then there’s Malise. At this point, I feel sorrier for her than anyone. She’s been in this family for two and a half years now, and she’s done her level best to make it work. She’s tried to be a decent mother and wife, in a very strange situation. Now she’s got a broken arm and assorted minor injuries, her husband apparently hates everyone but his young daughter, and her only hope is for that daughter to create a way for her to escape.
What a broken, irrational household.
Stormwatch
This is the same day as the previous flashback in Chapter 61, and takes place just a few hours later. For the record, Shallan has recently turned sixteen.
Spren-Spotting
Okay, we don’t actually see Pattern in this chapter, but Shallan “sees” his light blazing from behind the painting which covers Father’s strongbox. It’s a pretty potent visual: she finds it blindingly bright—and yet she still can’t get past “not since… not since…” when she thinks of how long it’s been since she entered this room.
Heraldic Symbolism
Palah, I believe, represents Jasnah’s scholarship as displayed at the beginning of the chapter. Quite possibly, also, she reflects the “learning” Shallan does in this chapter (and will further in a year or so), as well as the “giving” aspect of Shallan’s planning for Balat and Malise to escape, knowing she will remain in this “house seething with anger, depression, and hopelessness” when they leave. Vedel usually represents healing, which is appropriate to Shallan’s ministrations to Malise; she also denotes loving—which, again, fits the planning for everyone else to escape even though she can’t. Or won’t.
Sigh. Now I’m gloomy too. Maybe rejoining Kaladin in prison will cheer me up.
Oh, hey, next week does get better, because Kaladin’s imprisonment is over! Yay!! Come back next week and we’ll have a happy dance party and smile again!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, who is snickering freely about the fact that there is a new Sanderson book coming out in less than three weeks, and another three weeks after that. Ain’t it fun, being a fan of such a prolific writer?
Just want you all to know that editing is your friend. Specifically, my editing is your friend. Otherwise, you’d have to read another 600-word homily on social philosophy, and nobody needs that today. Also, since it was written in a somewhat fuddled state of mind, we can probably all be grateful it got cut before uploading. o.O
You’re welcome.
It’s interesting to hear Jasnah talking about the importance of women being able to make their own roles, &c given that we’re in a setting where the men are nearly as restricted as the women. This is an issue for both genders in Vorin society, even if Jasnah seems to focus on its implications for women.
It’s also interesting to see how Jasnah influenced Shallan even before they met!
I’d so love to read your thoughts on social philosophy, Alice! You are a very wise and thoughtful woman, and I totally agree with what you wrote above about people just wanting to “fit in and be accepted”. Oddly, this is a subject that has come up quite a bit lately in my own life.
Wetlandernw @1
Thanks, I think, for your restraint.
It was interesting to note that Shallan comments again on new guards she doesn’t recognize, but we explored that topic sufficiently in the last flashback sequence. However, one of the guards in this chapter is chewing on something, and Shallan doesn’t understand the significance. Neither do I. What’s behind this seemingly trivial observation, and why did BWS plug it in here? At first I thought maybe the guard was “doing” Firemoss, but a quick check of Coppermind confirmed you only rub that substance between your fingers–no chewing involved. Ideas?
To me Malise’s comment was a “proof” that she knows Shallan killed her mother, just not how.
Shallan seeing the “light” – has to be part of her mental blocking. By only seeing the light there, she can ignore Pattern if she ever sees him anywhere else. Girl has some amazing abilities of self-delusion.
I love the quote form Jansnah’s book with all my heart.
Change the “women” to people – and you have true equality.
Limiting anyone’s ability to be something, because of gender is stupid.
Men should be able to read. They should be allowed to be scholars without being ardents first.
Women should be able to eat spicy foods.
I’m glad their silly book did not declare that horse training was to be limited to one gender.
But it’s interesting that wife is turned to mother in the next paragraph. Guess the two were the same until our modern generation of increased infertility and married couples choosing to not have children.
So would husband be the same as father as well?
And yes, Shallan’s thoughts do cover the flaw in Jasnah’s writing. Jasnah is showing a very strong “First World problem / privilege.”
She acknowledges the stratified society without really understanding how nice she has it on the top of the pile.
Because how many dark-eye non-ardents have the choice of becoming a scholar?
#solidarityisforlight-eyedwomen?
I highly doubt that Lin Davar would tell anyone, including his new wife, who really killed his first wife and her companion. He could not be sure that the information wouldn’t get out and implicate his beloved daughter in the killings. There is only one person whom Lin loves, and that is Shallan. He may also fear her, as Alice has often noted, but knowing that she can summon a shardblade is not as dangerous for a competent swordsman like Lin as not knowing. Rather, the accusation of who really deserves Lin’s anger that is directed at Shallan by Malise is more likely due to Shallan’s countering her father’s will on a number of occasions. Not having the book available, I can only point to one – the rescue of Joshu from the creditor gang.
I can identify with what we see from Shallan here. I’ve experienced the paralysis and fear of having to live with the fact that anything you do can be used as a justification for hurting you or someone else, and it’s out of your control. It’s terrifying and it feels nearly impossible to escape when you’re living it.
As for social organization, the longing for freedom from arbitrary social rules is a common theme in fantasy and it’s strong here. Sanderson’s portrayal of Shallan’s reaction is a lot more real than many other authors. Modern fantasy has given us a fair number of idealistic characters who often seem shaped too little by their own experiences and environments. I like that Shallan takes time to warm up to Jasnah’s ideas and that she’s able to see how easy it is to write about freedom of choice when you enjoy it in your everyday life.
@5 Braid Tug
Most sets of social rules are at least somewhat arbitrary. It’s much easier to see them and critique them when they’re very different from the ones we’re used to. For example, we all get dressed every day and we’re accustomed to seeing others dressed similarly. But when you step back and look at the conventions for men’s and women’s clothing in our society, it gets ridiculous pretty quickly.
However, I think humans are almost always fated to stratify themselves as long as they’re living in large civilizations. From the beginning, urban societies with divisions of labor almost always have this trait. We can and should work toward making sure freedom is accessible to everyone, but I don’t think we can build a truly flat society unless something fundamental about human nature changes.
@Wetlander/Alice
I’ve always observed that a certain percentage of people need structure from some sort of outside authority. It’s not a criticism, just a preference that people may not even know they have. Often, these kinds of characters are not accounted for in books, or portrayed in a negative way. It’s good to see Sanderson showing that it’s just one form of human variation. There’s always peril in “freeing” people who don’t want to be freed.
@8: Very true. I stuck to book examples. Real world examples could lead down the world of a different type of debate I am trying to prevent.
At Mods: My image has reverted back to my old icon. When I go to my profile, it has the glyph image I uploaded. But all my recent comments have my old braid. What’s up with that? Self flagging.
I don’t think Malise knows why Shallan is not ever targeted by her father. I actually read that section as Malise just resents that Shallan is never physically in the crossfire. It doesn’t matter that Shallan is in the same predicament, she isn’t hurt in the same way as Malise and IMO I felt like Malise was taking out some unjustified anger and resentment at at Shallan. I don’t that that Shallan’s would confide in his new wife either.
I think at first Shallan’s father wouldn’t raise a hand to her because he loved her but I wonder when it changed to fear that she would turn her Shardblade on him? I wonder if that fear of his own daughter along with the condemnation of everyone around him for a crime he didn’t commit but takes the blame for lead to him being influenced by Odium; or if he was endanger of being influenced by Odium before that? Shallan is a little bit unreliable as a narrator so we don’t know how ideal her childhood actually was before he mother attacked her.
I agree with STBLST @7 and kei_rin @10. Malise sees that Shallan does something or fails to do something which angers Lin. Yet he beats one of the maids or even Malise herself. She is asking rhetorically if all of her husband’s “punching bags” disappear, will he turn his aggression to Shallan. A person who, in Malise’s eyes, is the person often triggers Lin’s rages.
IMO, Shallan’s answer of “maybe” is Shallan’s answer to whether she is the person who actually deserves the punishment rather than the person who Lin will take out his aggression upon.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@1: Ah well you see me sadden, I would have love to read the essay on social philosophy as it is indeed an interesting piece of Jasnah character we are glimpsing here. I had forgotten about this part and I may not have made the links without your analysis.
Jasnah is an idealist which is admirable. She genuinely want women to have the right to choose to live their life as they preferred completely independently of social conventions. I certainly cannot find any flaws within her logic and it is remarkable she chose to follow her ideas, positioning herself as a leading figure for female independence.
This being said, it perhaps was easier for Jasnah to make this choice than it would be for other women: expectations placed on her likely weren’t the same as those placed on a young woman expected to provide and care for her relative (Shallan) or the heir of an important bloodline expected to reproduce (Elhokar, Adolin). All in all, as a princess, she had the luxury to ponder on these issues and while she had relatively little burden to carry, her decision likely weighted on how she was regarded, viewed judged. The cost of her choice fell on her and not others which probably allowed to make it to begin with.
It makes me wonder how it was for Navani when she chose to marry Gavilar… Did she have any pressure? Would she have preferred to live as a scholar, like Jasnah? I am curious about these issues.
I also wonder what Jasnah thinks of her brother being forced to marry at 19 a woman he did not love simply because it was his duty. Or how she feels about the pressure put on Adolin to secure himself a wife (and as soon as the wedding night is over, you can be sure the pressure to have a son will start). What does she think of how social conventions also are warping the life of her male relatives? Elhokar had little choice in becoming a king, Adolin has no free agency being forced to obey his father for fear of being thrown out of the household and yet she, Jasnah, got to take all the liberties she wanted.
How far had she pushed her reflection?
As for little Shallan, now she is free to make her own choices, which life will she choose?
@@@@@ Several
Jasnah is one of my favorite literary characters not only in Stormlight Archive but in general. Questionable theology aside, I understand her motivations and thought processes. I don’t find myself yelling at her through the book–though that may be simply because we haven’t seen enough of her yet.
There will always be restrictions on what we can and cannot choose for ourselves. Telling your child they can be “anything if they put their minds to it” is all well and good in terms of building up their self-esteem and teaching them to apply themselves. But it’s a lie.
There are some things that are simply beyond our control. They aren’t even necessarily anyone’s fault. My cousin has Huntington’s Disease. No matter how hard she tries she will never be a cop, and eventually (within the next year or two) she won’t be able to walk or feed herself.
Lots of people have similar restrictions. Not always so dramatic, but no less binding.
Lil’ (and older) Shallan is more like Navani than Jasnah. She loves to learn and study, but she is much more of a nurturer as well. I can’t see her wanting to choose a pure scholarly life at the expense of having a family.
For what it’s worth, I’ll probably go ahead and finish the “social philosophy” thing. I’ll just post it in the comments, so it’s easier to skip if you don’t want to read it. :) Then those of us who want to get into it can do so, and those who don’t can skim & skip.
Jasnah’s passage is interesting, mostly because I think we’re also getting a biased slice of it: it obviously relates to what Shallan is currently experiencing, and Shallan is reacting to it in particular because it opposes her current experience. Jasnah does come from a place of privilege, but I would wager that if she was born into different circumstances but still managed to gain enough scholarly acumen to publish a book it would still be a very similar argument she would propose (as this is a very Jasnah argument, it fits her personality to a t). Not because she doesn’t get it, necessarily, but because it’s an argument that needs to be made that she’s not seeing made: plenty of the ardentia will already extol the virtues of sticking to your Callings and expectations, the world doesn’t need a retread of that.
For Malise, while I think a lot of her bitterness towards Shallan is misplaced anger at Lin and her situation, I could also see her making a possible guess that Shallan was involved in her mother’s death. Not necessarily because of Lin letting something slip, but just the general atmosphere. The boys just all assume their father’s weird attitude towards Shallan is because she witnessed what happened but won’t admit it: it’s a fair assumption to make but it blinds them to the possibility it could be something else. We don’t know if Malise has that bias (or if she does it’s less clear), so she may be more open to that idea than anyone else we see. It does feel like reaching considering improperly attributed anger is the more likely response, but it seems possible (and decently so) that Malise could have picked up on something the boys couldn’t/refuse to get.
Re: Malise – I don’t think she knows anything. I think she just knows that Shallan never gets beaten or really even scolded, even when she does the provoking and Malise is bitter about that.
@Wetlandernw – I found your comment in the main post about wanting to smack Jasnah upside the head for having it “easy” as interesting. I think you and many of us suffer from POV bias related to Jasnah, similar to how to were to Shallah after only tWoK was out. Keep in mind that Jasnah has bonded a spren and was the FIRST by almost 5 years to have done so. Bonding a Spren requires cracks in the soul realmatically, just like snapping in Mistborn, this is almost always caused by emotional trauma/stress (see Kaladin and Shallan’s backstories for more proof of this).
Maybe her spren just found her first, but I promise that Jasnah endured something that will deepen our opinion of her and how relatively easy she may or may not have had it. As you said, High Prince’s sons are bound tightly by Vorin culture, so are King’s daughters! That does give her a bit more agency than someone from a lower Dahn, but she still stands up to incredible pressures from their society for not falling into her role as the dutiful daughter/sister of Gavilar.
I’ll get into more of the discussions later, but one comment I just HAVE to toss in…
Maybe Lin Davar talks in his sleep.
@@.-@ At least to me, it just seemed like a brief sensory detail. But who knows, this is Sanderson we’re talking about.
@10 On Lin Davar being influenced by Odium – We’ve already met two people in this family who are associated with magic, Shallan and Helaran. Is there a connection between Shallan and (possibly) Helaran’s abilities and Lin’s influence by Odium? Or to look at this from another direction – in Mistborn people who are mentally unstable can be more easily influenced by Ruin. Shallan’s family displays many mental issues. Could Lin be more open to Odium’s influence because of this element in his family?
Anyways, reading these comments, it strikes me that all of Shallan’s family are trapped and limited in their choices in this chapter. It’s not just because of expectations, but also because of the fallout from Shallan’s mother’s death, their family’s debt, and so forth. But Shallan consistently takes what choices she has and uses them proactively to change what she can. Even if she envies Jasnah her freedom, she is already, in a way, following Jasnah’s philosophy – making her own path and her own identity in the face of great pressures on her life. Her other family members, in contrast, are giving in the pressures more than seizing what choices they have.
@17, Wetlandernw: Or said too much when drunk.
@@@@@ Many
I’ve been hearing a lot people speak against the idea of freedom of choice/free will/”you can be anything you want to be” mentality lately not just in the comments on this thread but IRL and while I understand there is a degree of truth to it. In Shallan’s case she doesn’t have the freedom in her current life situation to pursue scholarship or anything else really because of the household oppression she lives under. But I don’t think Jasnah’s argument should be dismissed as as wholly ideological.
This study I saw awhile ago talks about free will and how well students do in their classes. (I also found this other study that correlates students self reported free will with instances of cheating.) In summary, students who self report agreeing to statements like “I am in charge of my actions even when my life’s circumstances are difficult” in general did better in there studies than students who didn’t. I think that having some measure of free will and some measure of choice in their lives makes a difference in how people look at difficult situations. I feel like we see this more clearly with Kaladin, though I don’t know if it’s perceived lack of choices that make him depressed or if he’s depressed and therefore perceives that he has a lack of choices.
If you look up freedom of choice paradox you’ll come up will dozens of articles/journal papers and general spilled ink on the subject. We as humans seem to need some measure of choice in our lives (generally it seems that more “happy”/”fullfilled” people self-report free will) but give too much choice and seems to freeze people up (one of the arguments against telling kids they can be anything is that it seems to cause a inverse effect where they multitude of options causes them not know what they want to do). Maybe you can’t be anything you want because of societal/family pressure or due to your own physical/mental limitations but doesn’t mean that you can’t make choices to how your role in your life is going to be. Or least that’s how I read what Jasnah was trying to say and I really like that sentiment. The only thing is Jasnah didn’t put the limiting factors on her statement, possibly because makes the statement seem weaker and therefore easier to dismissing. Shallan might not believe it when she reads or but I like that she was at least introduced to the idea. I think that just hearing from someone that options/choices are possible can make a difference to someone.
@20: Kei_rin, I agree with this post. I didn’t call Jasnah an ideologist in a pejorative way, quite the contrary. You need people like her to break boundaries in order for real change to happen, you need people like her to inspire all the little Shallan of the world to take control of their life and develop their agencies. They may not have the choice in between “scholar” or “wife”, but they have the ability to make other choices.
Shallan can’t choose to live outside her traumatic family, but she can choose to try to make her brothers life better and hers by the band. She also can choose how she will behave through the ordeal.
Bottom line is all Jasnah is saying is: you always have a choice and don’t let futility such as social conventions prevent you from exercising it.
And Jasnah is right as look all how little Shallan grew up to take her own decisions.
@@@@@ 20 and 21
I’m with Gepeto on this one. My comment @@@@@13 wasn’t meant to imply that we have no choice at all in our lives, and definitely not that we are not responsible for our actions.
I simply mean that everyone has a field(s) that they can operate within. Some are bigger and some are smaller. What that field is, is beyond our control. How we act within that scope, is absolutely our own responsibility–as is the attempt to widen that field when possible.
Just because an ideal is impossible to obtain in its complete form, doesn’t mean it isn’t worth pursuing. Otherwise civilization and technology would have peaked and stagnated forever centuries ago.
I’d also like to point out while Jasnah being a pampered princess does remove some weight out of her words, it does not remove the fact she indeed chose the hardest path for her to walk on. Of course, this path does not compare to the atrocities lived by both Kaladin and Shallan, but she hasn’t chosen the easiest journey among those who were open to her. She may not have faced physical brutality or deprivation, but she has stand up strong against all social conventions and well established religions by positioning herself as an atheist scholar who refused to marry. I have no problem imagining the kind of reactions she received when she decided to publicly disclose her views.
In other words, physical torture is one thing: it is attacking your body and it creates physical pain as well as a feeling of hopelessness, but psychological torture is another thing entirely. What Jasnah withstand likely was an attack to her being, to her person. She was told everything she was, everything she thought was wrong and worthy of being demolished or quiet down at the very least. It is only her position as a pampered princess which protected her, to some extend.
Additional trauma are not required. In fact, I don’t want to find additional trauma within Jasnah’s past. Why? Because the idea a character’s soul could break enough for a Nahel bond through the constant effort of having to defend your views, your persons, your ideas in the face of adversity is actually extremely interesting. Brandon has shown us character who were physically broken by events outside of their control, I now want to read about characters who have broken through other means, such as purposefully choosing the harshest path and thus placing yourself the obstacles and thinking it is worth to suffer for your ideas to progress. Jasnah happens to be the perfect character to explore this.
As for the idea of choices, it may help explaining why some of us have started to grow cold on Kaladin. Back in WoK, he was placed in a terrible situation where he had little agency left and yet he chose to fact it with dignity and ingeniousness. In WoR, he was placed into a favorable situation, but he used his agency to worsen his state while our little Shallan, in parallel, strove to do the opposite. Kaladin did not chose to be betrayed by Amaram and Roshone, but he chose how to react to these events. Shallan did not chose her family, but she chose how to react to it. One character reacted on the negative while the other reacted on the positive.
Choices. There is always a choice to be made. Shallan I believe has understood that (thanks to Jasnah), not Kaladin. Not yet.
16. Green Hoodie Mistborn
Actually as far a we know, Shallan was the first. She had Pattern before her mother’s death, which was well before the assassination.
@20-23 Good thoughts. I guess, in essence, you all are saying that the important thing is to focus on what choices you do have and use them to create a role for yourself. As some of us said earlier, one of Shallan’s strengths is that she does do this. She doesn’t waste energy being miserable over her lack of freedom, but focuses on doing what she can. She has formed her own identity in defiance of the trauma she’s gone through. Kaladin, and also Shallan’s brothers as in this chapter, are not as good at this. They tend to think more than Shallan about what they can’t do and what choices they don’t have. I think of how both Shallan and Kaladin have hurt their families, yet Kaladin constantly beats himself up about it while I’m not sure we’ve ever seen Shallan feel guilty for her family’s dissolution.
This is also interesting to consider in light of Shallan’s tendency to avoid painful thoughts and feelings. This trait of hers makes it easier for her to focus on the choices she has and make a difference in difficult situations. But it also contributes to her suppression of memories and refusal to face hard truths.
@@@@@ Many – Ah, that elusive word – FREEDOM. While composing this post, I found myself in a slippery slope. I cannot help but think of the headlines. Freedom of religion, Pro-life/pro-choice, freedom to defend oneself and property. I can go on. But, again, it is a slippery slope. I have typed, retyped and totally erased one whole post which was a wall of text because what I wrote will inflame many, some for it, some against it.
So, are our characters truly free? Or, like IRL, they are bound by social conventions, hence there is no total freedom. But what is total freedom anyway? Can someone walk stark naked at Times Square in New York and claim it as freedom of expression when the cops come? After all, America is a free country. We all know that if you walk stark naked anywhere where there are people, you can be charged with public indecency here in the U.S.
What I’m trying to say is that the more we discuss our characters choices, the more we realize that just like us, all of them have limited choices. They are bound by social conventions, hence whether they are rich (Jasnah) or poor (Shallan), darkeye (Kaladin), lighteye (Adolin), their actions are dictated by the accepted social norm.
A slippery slope, indeed… even if we just discuss the choices of these four characters.
@@@@@ 26 Sheiglagh
Even if it wasn’t illegal and even if society wouldn’t frown on it, I still wouldn’t walk through Times Square naked.
I’ve been there in January before. It’s cold as all get out, and the thought of freezing my dangly bits off is thoroughly unappealing.
Then again the loss or availability of some choices are more important to me than others.
On that note, I don’t want to think about the sleeze I might have been had I been born into a Vorin culture (assuming I would even survive the constant fighting).
The chiloices for a brown eyed man seem to be limited to A.) Get a spear rammed in your gut, B.) Be a poor illiterate dirt farmer or C.) Be a slave or priest who is also a slave.
I’m not surprised that a lot of the discussion is on Jasnah’s written words and Shallan’s reaction since I find it the most interesting part of the chapter. Jasnah’s words read like the introduction to an argument though – I wouldn’t necessarily assume she doesn’t broaden out the discussion even further. After all, back at the start of WoR Jasnah considers it refreshing that spren/Radiants don’t seem to take gender into account.
Given Shallan’s expectations of Jasnah at the start of tWoK, I’m not surprised at her slight feelings of resentment here. An easy mistake to make since Jasnah’s so obviously capable and perfect on the surface. On a related note, there’s many ways in which Jasnah and Shallan differ but perhaps a more subtle one is that Jasnah seems to argue more from a top-down approach (theory driven) while Shallan seems to take a more bottom-up (practical driven) approach. For example, if Shallan sees some pitiful slaves in front of her she would probably be more likely to do something to help them than Jasnah but not necessarily go much further while Jasnah may take no immediate action but consider the wider aspects of slavery and if she were to take action it would be more to abolish slavery itself.
I don’t know if anyone has asked Brandon who bonded a spren first – Jasnah or Shallan. I don’t think there’s enough information to determine it precisely from the books but maybe I missed something. It probably doesn’t matter much. I don’t think we can judge the minimum requirements of “brokenness” to allow a full Nahel bond to be established though I suspect it’s quite a bit less than what Kaladin went through.
Regarding the conversation between Shallan and Malise at the end, I’d always taken that at confirmation that Malise had a rough idea about the truth of who killed Shallan’s mother. Lin is clearly willing to hurt women, to hurt his own family so then why does Shallan uniquely get special treatment? Lin probably dropped enough hints while drunk or in his sleep or whatever given how broken he is. Shallan is not openly resisting or angering her father except in emergency cases so saying she “deserves it” seems like a very big stretch and I don’t think Shallan would effectively agree to the accusation if she thought it was unfair. We also know that Shallan has known who really killed her mother for quite some time – the first hint is in tWoK. It’s more like she can’t think about it rather than doesn’t remember at all… though it seems at some points she really couldn’t remember at all either, but with Shallan it’s hard to tell.
wccarter @@@@@ 27 – Oh, darkeyes have more choices than that. They can be surgeons, like what Kaladin’s father is. Women can be clerks like what Kaladin’s mother is. Or, they can be master servants. And please don’t look down on that job description because in England up to today, those who serve the aristocracy as major domo or man of business are actually highly respected. People do not thumb their noses on those jobs.
Look at tenners in Roshar though. Some of them are so poor, their choices are very limited. In fact, even those who are higher in rank but are poor have limited choices. Poor lighteyes who cannot buy a commission in the army become archers. And yes, “buying a commission” is a tradition by the European aristocracy.
That said, at the end of the day, just like IRL, it is all about MONEY.
Perhaps Malise just noticed that Lin seemed afraid of Shallan (and only Shallan among all his family members), then made a logical conclusion from that. But nevertheless, it would be strange to suspect a young, quiet girl of killing her mother when her father is so clearly violent.
Well, Jasnah’s opinions also resulted in some assassination attempts on her, IIRC, so it wouldn’t be correct to claim that expressing them was entirely easy and risk-free even in her position.
Sheiglagh @29:
The tenners can be artisans, merchants, whatever, and I bet that it is much easier for them to receive that trade training that the temples supposedly offer freely, than for the darkeyes. Speaking of whom, that dark-eyed loan-shark was confident of being able to get away with beating and even killing a son of a Davar, so there are some gradations of power there too.
I have to confess, that I never understood why the Davar twins were so broken that they chose to remain in that household, rather than leaving and looking for their luck elsewhere. Balat was pretty much caught between his sense of duty and the weakness of both his position and his character, I understand that. But the twins? They didn’t have the former, and it didn’t seem to me that Lin would have cared to prevent them if they tried to leave. He certainly didn’t care whether Jushu lived or died. Surely, even becoming an archer would have been an improvement for him.
And, poor, poor Malise. A (still) living example in this chapter that going along with societal expectations can be quite dangerous too. No clue whether she suspects Shallan’s role in her mother’s death, or is just bitter that Shallan is the only member of the household who is never physically abused and is seemingly the apple of her father’s eye.
@31: Why didn’t Wikim and Jushu left? They were very young, I suspect they never saw leaving as a choice they truly had. It is true many victims of household abuse chose to remain thinking leaving is not an option. I assume this kind of behavior must have name, but I have no difficulty understanding why it didn’t seem to have crossed their minds.
This leaves me wondering what Shallan’s brothers will do upon hearing the news of her new engagement and more importantly how will they react to it once Adolin gets denounced as a murderer? Are they going to try to protect their little sister? Or is Shallan going to sacrifice something she wants for her family’s shake, once again? I do agree with an earlier comment stating Shallan is unlikely to choose the life of a celibate scholar such as Jasnah. She has voiced too much thought into wanting her family to be whole and happy not to want to create one, someday.
Also pertaining Shallan and her engagement to Adolin, a new funny tip bit of information got my way today. I share it here because I think some commentators would be interested in hearing about it. It basically says Shallan was originally engaged to someone else than Adolin. Since I had wondered about these things, I was happy to read it.
@25 sheesania, I don’t see that Kaladin and Shallan have reason to feel guilty about harming their families. If anything, their actions were aimed at protecting and saving family members. Kaladin, felt that protecting his kid brother by joining the army with him was more important than shattering his parents’ dreams for his future. His only regret, that I recall, was that he was unsuccessful in his mission, but was unable to face the prospect of returning home alone. Shallan has wiped that awful day when she was forced to kill her mother in self-defense from her working memory. Whatever guilt and psychological burden justifiable matricide may carry, it is not an issue of hurting her family. She has been protective of her brothers and Malise, and sought to have them escape from her father’s violence. One can question her strangling of her still paralyzed father when the poison that she secretly administered failed to work as expected, but such violence was aimed at saving the rest of the family.
@many – according to Brandon’s (non-published, so you wouldn’t have seen it anywhere) timeline, Gavilar and Lady Davar died at approximately the same date: within a few days (or at the outside a couple of weeks) of one another. So it’s fairly clear that Shallan and Pattern were bonded before Jasnah and Ivory were.
@32 Gepeto – do you know when Shallan’s engagement partner was changed? If it was more recently (ie just before or while Brandon was writing WoR) then it would have been with Renarin.
@34 Alice – ooo! Thanks for sharing, nice to get that clarified. Unless Pattern was originally “protected” like Wyndle that probably means that Pattern and Shallan first bonded months before Jasnah.
@32: If I interpret the WoB accurately, it was referring to Shallan in WoK Prime and not WoK. At the time, she was a different character. Adolin, Renarin and Kaladin also were very different characters than those we actually know. It seems as if Brandon initially had other plans for Shallan, but I suspect he dropped as the characters changed so much the intended union didn’t work out anymore.
Just my two cents.
This is why I don’t worry too much about how things were “originally” planned. Things change along the way. Not major Cosmere-shaking stuff, generally, but personal-level and even world-level stuff gets changed as the story actually gets written.
@37: Yeah well in that case we are speaking a very very long time ago… How long was WoK Prime shelved? I honestly don’t think it bears any relevance to whomever Shallan will end up with, but it is the kind of fun fact I like to know about.
However, had the WoB related to WoK first draft (not WoK Prime) then I would have wondered about it as the Shallan was Shallan, Kaladin was Kaladin and Adolin was Adolin back then. I also wonder if, when Brandon refers to his “initial planning” he refers to planning done at the time of WoK Prime or planning he did when he restarted the series? The phrasing of this WoB made me think he was referring to former and not the later, but the poster clearly asked about WoK Prime Shallan.
Hence there are a few WoB I may have badly interpreted as I thought Brandon referred to WoK first draft and not WoK Prime when he used similar wording. Oh well.
Way of Kings Prime is like 10 years old or more IIRC. I’ve heard that in it Jasnah has a ward with a name like Shallan’s but that Brandon considers them to be different characters – ie the current Shallan was freshly created rather than evolved.
If any of you are subscribers at Audible, there is a 2 for 1 sale for Brandon’s books. 2 books for one credit. It’s the Mistborn books mostly plus Alcatraz
@33 STBLST: Oh, I agree. Both of them were involved in what happened to their families, but not guilty for it. I didn’t phrase that so well! Anyways, my point is that though they were similarly involved in (not responsible for!) their families’ pain, Kaladin is the only one who actively feels guilty about his role. Shallan responds differently. One can argue about whether her response is more or less healthy, but it is, at any rate, different from Kaladin’s.
@32 Gepeto: Huh, interesting. Do you have a link to the original WoB? (I’m kind of a primary source nut.)
@41: Yeah. I saw it in a book cover sign-up. The person asked for something about Shallan WoK Prime time and here is the exact answer:
In the original version of KINGS, the character in Shallan’s place was engaged to a different character!
I don’t have the exact wording of the question though, I just know what it referred to.
In the spirit of this thread, I thought it was a fun one to share.
Choice is paramount. If what people want to is to be accepted by their social circle and so they make the choices to do that I don’t see the problem. The beginning philosophy is the correct one that there is no role for groups of people but only individuals. Yes you will have limits on what you can do based on the darkness that comes before but that is life. Fair is a meteorological term really. We should try to make it a life one as much as we can but you can not limit another person’s freedom even if in doing so you increase someone elses.
It amazes me how every single person who posts here though seems to be a liberal social critic.
dwcole @@@@@ 43 – I agree, choice is paramount. But, like what I said earlier, there is no such thing as total freedom or total equality. Those are ideal situations or goals with the emphasis on IDEAL, also capitalized.
Communism tried to have total equality. It resulted to a slumbering giant called the USSR which eventually fell and a totally corrupt China which has no checks and balances for their capitalistic tendencies. In short, China is a communist country in name only.
It is political statement. Then again, aren’t we talking about the political situation in Roshar? Next chapter when Kaladin comes out of prison and gives Moash a shardblade will probably be a better place to discuss it.
I think it may be important to consider Jasnah’s audience for this book Shallan read – it was a work of nonfiction intended for females, and scholars in particular. Who else would be reading it? Therefore, being overly concerned with the fact that the choices she espouses as being available to them were not in reality available to everyone – which is certainly true – is probably not an issue she intended to address within that particular work.
We have, to my knowledge, no instances in the books with which to judge how Jasnah treats the dark-eyed caste, and with no real POV for her, drawing conclusions as to her thoughts/attitude towards those of lower social rank is probably a foolish endeavor.
On Malise: Back in Chapter 61, Malise says to Lin, “I believed your story about the woman before me. I’ve supported you.” Lin clearly told her something that was good enough to convince her of his innocence. Whether he fingered Shallan, who knows, but I’m convinced Malise at least suspects Shallan’s guilt. It would certainly help explain why she seems so hands-off as a stepmom.
On Jasnah’s essay: If you strip away the wording – which I agree with others has its flaws and reveals quite a bit about Jasnah’s personal blinders – to the essence, it’s every bit as insightful and, yes, passionate as I expect from our favorite Alethi princess.
I love that this is the first time we see Shallan actively inspired by her idol. The fact that the Jasnah excerpt centers around choice and self-definition ties in beautifully to what I see as one of Shallan’s primary long-term character arcs: figuring out who she really is.
In fact, I think this goes for the Stomlight Archive overall. It’s about choosing the kind of person you want to be.