Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Kaladin was released from prison, was awarded a full set of Shards which he promptly gave away, and declared his support for the planned assassination of the king. This week, Dalinar faces an unsubtle attempt to make him look foolish, and turns the tables to render the attack powerless.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 67: Spit and Bile
Point of View: Dalinar
Setting: The Pinnacle and the Feasting Basin
Symbology: Kholin glyphpair, Ishar, Joker
IN WHICH Dalinar and Navani stroll toward another feast they’d rather not attend; Navani natters about fabrials while Dalinar’s mind wanders to his upcoming expedition; he finally registers that she’s rambling about her work because it takes her mind off Jasnah, at which point she breaks down and cries; they proceed to the feasting basin; Wit has returned; people are behaving oddly, but no one will let Dalinar in on the joke; Amaram arrives, and tells Dalinar that someone has leaked Navani’s accounts of his visions; Navani herself rejoins them, telling Dalinar that they have twisted her reports to make him look foolish; he refuses to be embarrassed, and climbs up on a table to tell them it’s all true; he then spends the rest of the evening confounding their expectations; the evening wraps up in a troubling conversation with Wit.
Quote of the Week
Amaram seemed so earnest. Why didn’t he help your sons? Kaladin’s voice rang in Dalinar’s mind. Amaram had come to him that day, of course, professing his apologies and explaining that— with his appointment as a Radiant—he couldn’t possibly have helped one faction against another. He said he needed to be above the squabbles between highprinces, even when it pained him.
“And the supposed Herald?” Dalinar asked. “The thing I asked you about?”
“I am still investigating.”
Dalinar nodded.
Another cryptic little exchange, which will be clarified later. In retrospect, though, it’s almost funny how obvious it is that Dalinar has, however reluctantly, concluded that Amaram is not all he pretends to be.
Commentary
This feels like two separate chapters, for some reason. There’s the whole scene with Dalinar and Navani strolling along, talking about fabrials, Shardblades, and bereavement. Then there’s the whole scene at the feast, with someone trying to discredit Dalinar’s visions, integrity, and authority.
Dalinar’s response is pure gold:
“I am not a youth, nervous at his first feast. Sadeas makes a mistake in believing I will respond to this as he would. Unlike a sword, scorn has only the bite you give it.”
Not that it’s quite so easy as all that, but this is really the only appropriate reaction to this scenario. I will confess to a gleeful grin when Dalinar climbed onto the food table with the thought that
Making a spectacle of oneself in this way was not done in Alethkar. He, however, had already been this evening’s spectacle.
Might as well take advantage of the spotlight to let it shine on the truth, eh? And he does exactly that, as he points out the truth of the visions and promises to share any new ones immediately. And then… then he proceeds to ignore the whole “visions” thing, instead exploiting his position as the center of attention to work people over in support of his up-coming Weeping-time expedition to the center of the Shattered Plains. Cleverly done, and I do most dearly love to see tables turned on Sadeas.
He had pointedly ignored the pages with his visions on them, except when asked direct questions about what he’d seen. Instead, he had presented them with a forceful, confident man—the Blackthorn turned politician. Let them chew on that and compare him to the frail madman the falsified transcripts would make him out to be.
The primary drawback is the one he notes at the end of the evening: that he has essentially ignored the structure he and Gavilar claimed to have established, and has taken the reins in his own hands after all. Elhokar may wear the crown and bear the title, but when real action is needed, it’s up to Dalinar to keep the whole thing from falling apart. It’s a lousy dilemma; under normal circumstances I’d say he really ought to back off and let Elhokar be king. These are not, however, “normal circumstances,” and Elhokar is dismally ill-equipped to lead when the fate of the world is on the line.
Stormwatch
These events take place three days after Kaladin’s release from jail; eleven days remain in the countdown. It comes. It comes!
::cue ominous music::
Sprenspotting
Politicking is hard work: the only spren in this entire chapter are the exhaustionspren Dalinar draws after an evening spent drumming up support for his Plains excursion.
Ars Mechanica
It always amazes me how much substance Sanderson slips into what is really a very short conversation about fabrial construction. Of course, since we know so little, any is a lot more. Navani muses on how to make fabrial pumps, and on the way by we learn a bit more about using gemstones to attract or repel specific substances.
The big revelation, of course, is the part about the Shardblades; it’s almost funny to look back and realize that when we read this the first time, we didn’t know what Shardblades really were. This was one of the early hints that the Blades are not fabrials – in the ordinary sense – at all, though I know I didn’t register that. In fact, I was thinking that the gemstones must (like all fabrial gemstones) contain a captive spren which was somehow forced to bond with whoever picked up the Blade. And… well… sorta… but not really. It involves a captive spren, all right, it’s just not trapped in the stone.
Someone was wondering why the Blades originally shifted to accept the stones, back in the day; I now suspect that the opportunity for some kind of return to sentience, however limited, was enticement enough. It still makes me hurt to think of all those spren, forever trapped in Blade form, only able to be a little bit themselves when someone bonds and summons them.
You Have to Break a Lot of Rockbuds
I dunno how many rockbuds they broke for this feast, but Dalinar sure didn’t get to eat much. At least his guards got a chance at it.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
And here’s everyone’s favorite Worldhopper. Ain’t that a surprise. For reasons I can’t explain, I’ve begun to think a little less highly of Hoid, but he’s an absolute gem in this chapter. The snarky remarks to/about Amaram, who has most people fooled, are pretty rich, and definitely reflect Adolin’s comments about him in the previous chapter. I have two favorites, though, and the first is this:
Dalinar gave no reply as Navani strode across the short bridge onto their island. Wit started to proclaim an insult, but she swatted him in the face with a stack of papers, giving him barely a glance as she continued on toward Dalinar. Wit watched after, rubbing his cheek, and grinned.
The visualization is priceless, and makes me snicker every single time I read it.
The other is that whole conversation at the end of the chapter. Wit’s acknowledgement of Dalinar’s skill was a nice moment, but the significant piece is in Dalinar’s understanding of the problems inherent in the manner of “unification” he and Gavilar forced on Alethkar. While Wit may say that “it is an era for tyrants” and that “a benevolent tyrant is preferable to the disaster of weak rule,” and he may be correct, Dalinar is wise to see the shortcomings of his past actions. The question now is, what effect should that have on his decisions and actions in the coming days? Is this the time to try to deal with the problems?
Finally, there’s the wider Cosmere view hinted at in this exchange:
Wit smiled. “I am but a man, Dalinar, so much as I wish it were not true at times. I am no Radiant. And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen.”
Dalinar frowned.
“I will do what I can to help,” Wit said, “and for that reason, I must go. I cannot risk too much, because if he finds me, then I become nothing— a soul shredded and broken into pieces that cannot be reassembled. What I do here is more dangerous than you could ever know.”
He turned to go.
“Wit,” Dalinar called.
“Yes?”
“If who finds you?”
“The one you fight, Dalinar Kholin. The father of hatred.” Wit saluted, then jogged off.
I’ll… just leave that there for you. Odium.
::shudder::
Heraldic Symbolism
I suspect that Ishar is here to reflect both the “guiding” aspect of Dalinar’s relationship to Alethkar, and the evening activities of his Bondsmith-to-be. The Joker, as is most common, is associated with Hoid’s presence, but in this case it’s extraordinarily appropriate. He’s the wild card in play.
Shipping Wars
Dalinar & Navani make me happy, even when they’re sad. Awkward moments, though, what with Navani’s implicit admission that she didn’t feel terribly bereaved when Gavilar died, and Dalinar’s inability to explain that thinking of his wife isn’t so much painful as, well, impossible. Someday he’s going to have to tell her about that.
Next week… Next week is crazy full. At this point, I’m still planning to do a reread post next week, but that may change. If I don’t, it will be because of activities surrounding the release of The Bands of Mourning.” If I do, we’ll be joining Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin, and company on a brief excursion out onto the Plains.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She eagerly awaits the release of the latest Mistborn story next week. She’s looking forward to the shrieking, to be perfectly honest.
Now, when you say that you’ve started to think less highly of Hoid for reasons you “can’t explain” – does that mean you can’t explain because it involves secrets you’re not at liberty to tell us? Or just that you don’t understand why you’ve started to think this way, so you really are unable to explain? :)
sheesania @1 – Yes. ;)
@@@@@ Wetlandernw , Stop that!
I missed Navani whapping Hoid in the face.
@1: I almost asked the same question. Then realized she would give the answer @2. ;-D
Least we know it’s not because of something in SA3, since none of it has been released to the beta readers. So if it is because of more book stuff, we might get to read it in BoM next week! :-D
There is much we can all learn about bullies in this chapter.
Gold indeed.
@@.-@ that’s only true because Dalinar is at the top of the pile. Nobody has any real authority over him. Ask Kaladin why scorn has bite and you’ll get a different answer.
If there’s anything that I’m disappointed about regarding this chapter it’s the things that don’t happen. Specifically, the lack of reaction from other major characters, either here or down the line. Well, the only two that really count are Kaladin and Shallan – since the others already knew.
An awesome chapter otherwise.
@5 That’s exactly right. If anything, Reformed Dalinar is far more tyrannical than the Blackthorn, who was content to follow Gavilar as long as he got to hit people and show off. Now that Dalinar is focused on a higher purpose, he has an actual justification for his love of power, so he can tell himself that he needs to make all the decisions himself. The natural consequences of that line of thinking are what we see at the feast; a culture that only respects strength, and a ruling class that automatically sneers at any idea of a “greater good” that Dalinar constantly invokes to give himself more power. Amaram may be evil, but he has a real point about Dalinar’s inability to trust anyone else with authority.
That problem is only going to continue in future books. As Bondsmith, Dalinar leads the new Knights Radiant, and he already ruled the Alethi in all but name. Maybe he’ll learn that he doesn’t have to be in charge of everything all of the time, but I doubt it. Dalinar is smart enough to see the problems with autocracy, and he describes them eloquently when he refutes Hoid’s idea of a “benevolent tyrant”. He just doesn’t see any alternatives, and the habits of a lifetime aren’t easy to break.
@several – I would say that scorn, in and of itself, does have only the bite you give it. When someone in authority over you acts on that scorn in ways that damage you, that’s another thing – but it’s the actions that do the harm. Scorn, particularly among (relative) peers, does nothing to you unless you allow it.
I wonder if the Parshendi had not assassinated Gavilar but some other event occurred that lead to the current war against the Parshendi; if Gavilar continued to have the visions he did before dying; and Sadeas decided to move against Gavilar like he did Dalinar, would Gavilar responded the same way. Embracing the accusation that he had visions and explaining them. Dalinar describes Gavilar as a better politician that Dalinar is. But that could be his own biased memory of Gavilar. In any event, Dalinar’s response was quite effective.
Any theories as to how Odium could detect/find Hoid? Is Hoid concerned that Odium will discover Hoid? Or is he concerned that one of Odium’s associates/followers will discover Hoid? Why is Hoid more attached to Roshar than he is to the other Cosmere planets seen in the previously published novels? I am certain that Hoid is not native to Roshar.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@9 AndrewHB, Odium is said to be trapped in another planet, Braize. However, the 3 who hunted Hoid in the Purelake (or Nalan) may be working for Odium, or that he will hear of their report to whoever sent them. Hoid is a world traveler whose mission is to thwart the destructive goals of the malevolent shard holders wherever they are manifested. Thus, he was in Scadrial helping in a small way to counter Ruin in his efforts to destroy that planet. Now, he is in Roshar to encourage the (budding) Radiants since this planet is threatened with the rather imminent Final Desolation.
@8 I don’t know if it matters if it’s the object of scorn or its possessor that gives it is bite. The object is bitten either way. True, there’s no inherent bite but it seems like an empty platitude to suggest it does not cause people to be bitten.
@10. Odium isn’t “trapped” on Braize, per se. His Shardpool is supposedly there, but he’s mainly “trapped” in Roshar’s solar system by the Oathpact.
Also, Wit’s epic takedown of Sadeas definitely deserved some quotes, especially given what we know about the so-called “Sons of Honor.” “You are what lesser cretins like Sadeas only aspire to be.”
STBLST @10 – If you know that much about Hoid’s motivations, it’s more than I do…
@9 Gavilar does seem to have been a better politician than Dalinar. When he conquered Alethkar, he played the highprinces off against each other, eliminated his most dangerous rivals, and turned the survivors into Kholin vassals. Dalinar is an excellent tyrant, but he is not particularly gifted at misdirection or Alethi politics. His strengths are force of personality, complete commitment to his goals, and military genius, which were excellent when he was helping his brother conquer a country and less valuable when he is running one. Dalinar wants to change the game of politics in Alethkar, and he hates the sneaky, schemy, smile in the face and knife in the back system too much to really be good at it.
I love this chapter! Two things:
1. I don’t have the book in front of me. Right before the long passage quoted at the end, isn’t this when Hoid point blank asks Dalinar if he’s heard the word “Adolnasium?” I’m wondering what exactly Hoid is digging for… He knows Dalinar is not a worldhopper. Does he think that Dalinar or others may be aligned or influenced by other Worldhopper organizations? Or that maybe they found ancient references to the term that could potentially contain useful information to whatever Hoid is trying to accomplish? Does Hoid have any allies? Or is he completely solo? The people he’s talking to in the extra little blurb at the end of the 10th Anniversary Elantris seem more like business associates.
2. My pet theory is that the random gardener working and humming in the dark as Dalinar and Navani walk by at the beginning of the chapter is one of the heralds that Brandon says we have seen somewhere in the first two books.
I got to wonder a bit just how much blood Amaram has on his hands. I don’t think that Wit was just talking about what he did to Kaladin and his men. And Amaram seems to think that he and the rest of “Sons of Honor” had something directly to do with bringing about the return of the Voidbringers. (Which they did by the fact that the pushed the Parshendi to desperate acts). You just got ask how bad, given the level of bad we know Sadeas is, how much worst is Amaram? Also he totally pissed me off by continuing to call Kaladin “the slave”.
I find it interesting that Hoid hints that human souls can be splintered into uselessness the same way a Shard can be. Does that mean the reverse is true? In the Physical Realm, a Shard is all but unbeatable. But in the spirit realm… it’s vulnerable to the same things a human is.
Or is it a commentary that Odium is limited in how he destroys things? He’s basically doing the godly equivalent of tearing something up and stomping on it because it pisses him off.
My favorite part of this chapter is Navani admitting she was not sad Gavilar died… I mean, I can understand why two married people can grow apart. I can understand why two people may marry for the wrong reasons, but not feel even the sightliest bereaved after the death of your spouse speaks at length of your feelings towards this person. You don’t need to love someone to sadden over their death, only to moderately like him or to recall with fondness a time were your feelings were genuine.
Sounds like Navani never loved Gavilar, worst she didn’t even like him.
The conversation between Hoid and Dalinar in this chapter is apparently my favorite part of this book, going by the standard of what I reread the most.
One thing in particular that I liked about it is that Hoid left the conversation less certain than he was at the start of it. I do not think that happens to any significant degree, nor that he is given reason for it to happen.
As for theories, just the same one as ever- Roshar falls. This is a “flashback” series.
@illrede
Okay I must have missed this theory at some point. What do you mean this is a “flashback” series? Do you mean that everything is just one giant flashback? Similar to the this all just a dream theory for Lost?
Patillian @15 – Actually, Hoid’s query of Dalinar re: Adonalsium is in The Way of Kings. Chapter 54 or something like that. Similar setting, quiet conversation at/after a feast, but much earlier in the timeline. There is so, so much we don’t know about Hoid, his purposes, his allies, his enemies… He knows a lot of people, for sure, and gets along with a lot of them (more or less, anyway)… but I still don’t think I know for sure what the long game is for him.
Also: I also am fond of the gardener theory. :)
One of the most interesting bits of this chapter to me is this comment of Hoid’s: “I have discovered a place that I must be, though to be honest I’m not exactly sure why I need to be there. This doesn’t always work as well as I’d like it to.” Another piece of evidence, fitting with what we saw in that Shallan flashback, that he has abilities to help him find important places to be…but not really why they’re important. Must make his adventures quite interesting.
Re: Navani and Gavilar: I found it very interesting in TWoK that Navani says “I was never unfaithful while he [Gavilar] lived, though the Stormfather knows I had ample reason.” Ample reason? What was going on? She doesn’t seem to know about Gavilar’s visions, connections with Amaram and Taravangian, and all that other fishy stuff. So what else could we reasonably suspect? The stereotypical reason would be that Gavilar was involved with other women, but we haven’t seen any evidence of that.
@9 AndrewHB:
“I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here.” (The letter in TWoK.) Something very significant is happening on Roshar – more significant, perhaps, than anything we’ve seen in other Cosmere novels – and Hoid has a definite purpose in it. Maybe he’s concerned about Odium’s threat to all other Shards…or perhaps it’s something more subtle. I personally think Hoid’s purposes are more subtle than that; it seems too easy and straightforward that he just wouldn’t want Odium to destroy Shards because destroying stuff is bad.
@10 STBLST: I’d be surprised if the folks from the Purelake are working for Odium. The letter in TWoK mentions “your friends of the Seventeeth Shard” that are evidently looking for Hoid, so we can fairly safely presume that the Purelake guys are connected to the recipient of the letter. The recipient’s response in WoR makes it clear that he thinks Odium is a danger (though a contained danger). So, the Purelake guys are friends of the recipient of the letter, who is definitely not working for Odium. Therefore the Purelake guys are probably not working for Odium either. (At least not intentionally.)
@15 Patillian: Yup, like Alice said, that’s in TWoK chapter 54. But still, very interesting and relevant questions… I found this WoB interesting on that subject:
So Hoid thinks there are societies on Roshar who would be aware of Adonalsium, and who would know some of the things Dalinar does.
@17 scm0f2814: Well, Hoid only mentions his own soul being splintered, and I suspect Hoid has some pretty strange things going on with his Spiritual aspect. So it could be specific to Hoid. Or it could be that all human souls can be splintered like Shards. Which makes me wonder what those splinters would be like…
@19 and 20: I think it would be interesting if the Desolation essentially succeeds and manages to destroy civilization in the first five books, but our protagonists figure out how to stop it – they’re just too late. So they leave enough information for their successors in the next five books that those later protagonists are able to stop it. However, everything I know about the planned structure of the SA contradicts this theory. There’s too small a gap between books 5 and 6, and there are too many characters from the first five who are supposed to appear in the last five. Ah well.
It would certainly be an interesting twist if Roshar DID get destroyed – just the kind of thing Sanderson likes to pull on us. But he also really likes happy endings, or at least bittersweet ones. I’m sure he’d want to end his great saga with a happy ending. So if Roshar did get destroyed, he’d have to figure out a way to make it happy regardless. Maybe the Rosharans all migrate to Scadrial. Hey, that’s what’s on the southern continent! Rosharan refugees! :)
I’m really curious as well to find out why Navani wasn’t too sad when her husband died. He must have done something incredibly sucky for her to feel that way. I feel like adultery is too expected, but then I don’t want to know what else could be bad enough for her to feel that apathetic toward him. And yes, Dalinar is going to have to let her know he can’t remember his wife, if only so she can piece together they can’t marry because then he’ll forget her (I have this pet theory I read in a fanfiction that I haven’t been able to find again where precisely this happens, and I have latched onto it with all my might, even though it would be awful to read).
Just all the signs point to Gavilar being a major butthead, and I am dying to find out what he was really up to towards the end of his life that he couldn’t reveal to his brother, wife, or daughter.
And yes, Dalinar’s leadership dilemma is so, so fascinating to me. I want more of that inner conflict please. Dalinar is a good man and a strong leader, but he is also a bit of a bull in his approach to politics. Isn’t that the saying though? Generals don’t make good presidents, or in this case good psuedo-kings?
The first Mistborn trilogy is a series where the world is destroyed but there is still a happy ending. I found the Mistborn books too bleak and wouldn’t want the same again in this series.
rosiej @23 re generals not making good presidents/leaders. That is an over generalization. In American history, I can think of at least 3 generals who made good presidents: 1) George Washington; 2) Andrew Jackson; and 3) Dwight Eisenhower. Granted, some former generals made lousy US presidents (e.g. Zachory Taylor; Ulysses S. Grant).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
This one is to the Moderation team: the index is bugged. Chapter 67 does not appear and all previous chapters I have tried were bugged. The wrong number of comments appear for chapter 66 and it is impossible to load anything. I get a “your session has expired message”.
Never had that problem before, so something must be wrong.
Sorry for the interruption. I did not know who to contact for this.
@22 sheesania, Your are correct about the affiliation of the 3 Hoid pursuers. The cited epigraph identifies them as associates of the ‘reptilian’ leader of the 17th shard world-hoppers to whom Hoid belongs. This letter forming the subject of the epigraph in WOK is also the primary basis of my assumption about Hoid’s motivation. He – almost certainly, Hoid, writes:
“For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives.”
The war to which he refers is aimed at Rayse and Bevadin according to the epigraph letter. Rayse bears the shard of Odium, the spirit of hate, while Bevadin’s shard is yet unknown. The scene of the war is almost certainly Roshar since reference to the attempted thwarting of Hoid by the 3 is mentioned. What, then, is mysterious about Hoid’s mission. Is he not being truthful, or is the admonition by Hoid’s correspondent not to interfere and possibly worsen the situation a reflection of a flaw in Hoids methods or mission?
Bavadin is (primarily) on the planet Taldain, location of the upcoming graphic novel White Sand. He holds the Shard Autonomy.
Hoid has made some statements about his purpose, but his observable actions indicate that he’s up to things he isn’t talking about yet.
@10, 22, 27
I don’t remember where this was established but we know the identities of all three seekers at the Purelake and they’re all “good guys.” So they’re definitely not working for Odium.
here’s a good synopsis from Galladon’s wikipedia page: Galladon appears as Temoo on Roshar. Purelake fisherman Ishikk calls him Grump. How he is able to move between worlds is unknown. He is described as being dark-skinned, like the Makabaki of Roshar. Unlike the Makabaki, he has thick limbs and a completely bald head. This is very similar to how he is described before the Shaod. Since The Way of Kings takes place after Elantris, it is reasonable to conclude that this is an illusion, either identical or similar to his pre-Elantrian state. Much like in Elantris, he continues to refer to others as “friend”, and frequently followed statements with the interrogative “Understand?”. Galladon says these in the local language rather than his native Duladel language. At the end of the Interlude, he says a phrase in Duladen, his native language, repeating the word kayana, meaning “crazy”. Galladon’s true motives on Roshar are unknown, but he and his two companions, Demoux and Blunt, hired Ishikk to look for Hoid.
@23 rosiej: Ha! That’s a very interesting theory. I doubt it would actually happen, but it’s a great idea.
@24 birgit: The thing about the Mistborn trilogy is that Sanderson planned to return to the world. So he was destroying it knowing that it wouldn’t stay destroyed, so to speak – he and his readers would get to see it again in later eras. He just had to give his characters good endings, because they were the only part of the story that was ending for good – you’d never see them again (well, most of them), even if Scadrial and the Metallic Arts would return. But Sanderson isn’t planning anything similar with Stormlight. He’s got to give the characters, the world, the magic, pretty much everything a final ending within the Stormlight Archive. Roshar might pop up again in later books when he starts getting more into worldhopping and Cosmere stuff, but he needs to finish it off pretty well within the SA. So I expect a more thoroughly happy ending for the SA. Even if lots of characters may still die.
I just really, really hope that Roshar keeps all its wacky weather and geography and doesn’t get “fixed” to be more Earth-like by the end. That would be awful.
@27 STBLST: I think that, most likely, Hoid is indeed trying to stop Odium and Bavadin. But I also think he’s up to a LOT more than just that. And I think his motives for thwarting these Shards are probably more complex than we realize, too.
It’s interesting to note that Hoid says in this chapter “If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so.” It’s not “do what I need” – it’s get what I need. He is after something. Perhaps another magical item like the lerasium in Mistborn or the Moon Scepter in The Emperor’s Soul? Ooh, maybe that glowing black pendant thing that Gavilar gave to Szeth? Complete conjecture.
Also, I didn’t think that Hoid was part of the 17th Shard. He certainly isn’t doing what the letter’s recipient wants, and he speaks of “your friends of the Seventeenth Shard” as if he isn’t among them. It seems to me like Hoid is doing his own thing without much care for what other people think.
So am I the only one that after reading this chapter for the first time and every time thereafter who thought that Dalinar should kill Elohkar and proclaim himself king? Sigh …
@31
Ummm…. I thought Dalinar should kill Sadeas from end of WoK. Sadeas is the one who needs to die. There is no point to killing Elohkar. Also killing Elohkar would just go against Dalinar’s character and probably destroy him more completely than any of Sadeas evil plans against Dalinar. To me this chapter just proves that if Dalinar ever wanted to be king he doesn’t need to proclaim himself or have Elohkar out of the way. He for all intents and purposes is an unnamed king and has been since he gave Elohkar a beat down at the end of WoK.
@32 Dalinar can’t just kill Sadeas. At the end of WoK, his army is decimated by Sadeas’s betrayal, and any fight would end in Sadeas’s favor. Even if he won, the other highprinces would take advantage of the weakened Kholin army to revolt, and Dalinar would have to fight another Alethi civil war. He’d lose even if he won.
Dalinar needs the highprinces to commit to his ideal of a better Alethkar. Killing Sadeas in cold blood is something the Blackthorn might do, and it would convince everyone that he’d never meant anything he said about the need to change their ways. No, the only way to kill Sadeas is exactly the way Adolin did it; with no witnesses and no warning. It’s a shame that Dalinar will probably be upset at Adolin for doing exactly what he needed to do.
@33
Yeah, those are all good points and I get it. Doesn’t change the fact that emotionally I was right there with Adolin on summoning that Shardblade and just killing Sadeas. Dalinar made the smarter political move by not killing Sadeas.
@30 That black thing Gavilar gave Szeth – was it really a pendant? My assumption has been that it was a gemstone holding an Void-spren of some sort. (Given that he, Amaram, et al were trying to bring back the Heralds by bringing back the Voidbringers.) I’m going to have to get out my book and check! :)
Killing Sadeas outside an official duel were such action would be warranted is nearly impossible to do without starting a civil war. Adolin’s deed may be illegal but it has the positive effect of being the action of a rogue rebellious agent of the Kohlin household. In other words, he acted without the support and the authorization of his family which will likely be used to safeguard the princedom.
Dalinar would have never been able to do the same without suffering high impact on both his reputation and his honor. Not to mention Brandon did say Dalinar would have never done it. Adolin, well, is the impetuous young son of Highprince: the consequences will be lesser than if it had been Dalinar.
What do you all think about what Amaram says to Dalinar about his visions – “they are obviously visions from the Almighty himself”, “God cannot die”, &c? Is he in earnest? Does he really believe all that? My inclination is to think that he does, given how he wants to return the Hierocracy and how he generally tries to be a devout, honorable man.
@35 Whoops, I checked the book and it’s a “crystalline sphere tied to a chain”, not a pendant per se. It could very well be holding a voidspren. At any rate, it’s a huge Chekhov’s Gun.
@30 sheesania, I don’t consider that Hoid’s use of the term “get what I need” implies an object that is worth more to him than an entire world. Rather it’s probably something like imprisoning Odium permanently. Odium freed can ostensibly lead to the destruction of many worlds and more shard bearers. This is what he must weigh against saving Roshar. I don’t know why you and Alice are suspicious of Hoid’s motives. He strikes me as a literary reincarnation of the author, or at least his point of view. While Hoid’s sarcasm and insults may not be very honorable, it is his designated role as the king’s ‘wit’. Besides, the principal victims deserve his ridicule, while his encouragement of (proto)-Radiants is important, if not vital, for their development. While Hoid is off doing his own thing to the dismay of others in the 17th Shard, he still calls his correspondent (the ‘reptile’) “friend”.
” I don’t know why you and Alice are suspicious of Hoid’s motives.”
Ask me again in a week or so.
@39 noooooooo :O I was terrified before ,but now you’ve really got me nervous!
@39 Alice
o_0 Well that’s not ominous at all…
Personally, I’ve never been one to trust the ‘mysterious characters who give vague and mystical answers types’ anyway. They just seem either completely disingenuous or egotistical to the point of insanity. If you don’t give people a reason to trust you, then why the hell should they.
Worse, they always act surprised and/or offended when their cryptic non-advise goes completely unheeded.
If something needs saying, then say it. It’s simply really I can think of an easy example: “Son that cave is full of nothing but bats that carry rabies and venomous spiders. You need to stay out of it.” Clear, honest and self-explanatory enough to take out the air of mystery and forbidden fruit style temptation.
“Son, the sealed cave at the edge of our lands is forbidden. You must never go there…” <– A whole lot less helpful.
Unlike you, I’m not privy to any early copies for critiquing or the like. But I’ve never trusted Hoid. Something about his just seems off.
I don’t even necessarily think he’s evil, but anyone who sticks their nose into that many conflicts with their own agenda is certainly playing fast and loose with a lot of innocent peoples’ lives.
@38 I doubt I have as much reason to mistrust Hoid as Alice does (to my great displeasure :) ). I’m suspicious of him mostly because I’m unsure of what he’s actually up to. Sure, we haven’t seen him doing anything actively malicious, and we’ve seen him doing plenty of apparently good things – but we’ve also seen him do things that don’t seem simply motivated by altruism, and we know he has enemies and grudges of unknown origin. Overall, my gut tells me not to fully trust an ancient guy with unknown powers who travels around interfering in other people’s lives and occasionally stealing magical objects. Even if he can tell a really bad pun. I guess I’m with wcarter: something about him seems off.
I think what Hoid “needs” could be something very good, like a way to stop Odium as you suggested. Or it could be something else. I really don’t know at this point. He definitely seems to be helping our protagonists right now and generally doing good stuff. But I’m just too unsure of his goals in the long run to fully trust someone that tangled up in the mysteries of the Cosmere.
Heh, concerning mysterious characters fond of cryptic uttereances, I have always liked this:
“Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth”
Speaking of which – does anybody know about the “Mistborn: Secret History – A Cosmere Novella” listing for which apparently appeared on amazon.com? With February 9 publication date?
@43 Good quote! Where’s it from?
I think that novella’s appearance on Amazon was an accident. I’m purposefully not seeking out information about it, since I’d rather only find out when it’s properly officially announced.
This: “Overall, my gut tells me not to fully trust an ancient guy with unknown powers who travels around interfering in other people’s lives and occasionally stealing magical objects.” – sheesania @42
Part of the reason I said “next week” is that last night, I just didn’t think I’d have time to respond before then; the other part is that you need to do some reading you can’t do until tomorrow to have a complete discussion. But sheesania’s comment is still going to be valid next week: Hoid is not telling us everything.
I do believe he opposes Odium; I’m less sure about his opposition to any other Shard. But his opposition to Odium doesn’t explain why he’s sneaking around other planets snitching Invested objects and apparently building up his ability to Invest the magic of every shard-world he can. I think he’s playing a bigger game; in fact, IMO it’s quite possible his anti-Odium stance is as much a matter of “Odium would damage my prospects for accomplishing my goals” as “Odium is bad and should be stopped.” And that’s based on things that have already been released and read by (mostly) everyone here.
I’ve always been rather fond of Hoid, but the farther we go, the less I actually trust him.
@41 wcarter, sometimes one has to use allusions to convey information either to induce the subject to listen or for self-protection. Hoid is very concerned that his whereabouts may be discovered by opponents in the 17th Shard or, worse, by Rayse/Odium. He, thus, plays the role of the king’s jester/wit and hides his powers. Actually, all his allusions appear to have worked for the benefit of Kaladin (2 allusions – the Uvara tale and the Fleet story) and Shallan (inducing her to flesh out a picture of domestic happiness in her early years and offering her encouragement to persevere). Hoid doesn’t assume the posture of a guru seeking disciples. He doesn’t even try to retrieve his former assistant from Kaladin’s group. He may be mysterious, but he elicits the trust of those he favors. Dalinar is even prepared to regard him as a Herald or Radiant were it not for Hoid’s disclaimer. As to your feeling that something “just seems off” about him, that is exactly Adolin’s reaction to Kaladin. Indeed, there is something different and powerful about these individuals.
@42 sheesania, I disagree with your following comment:
“Overall, my gut tells me not to fully trust an ancient guy with unknown powers who travels around interfering in other people’s lives and occasionally stealing magical objects.”
Interference is a rather cynical way of regarding helping. The latter is his intention regarding his favored subjects (proto-Radiants) and his effect on them. As to theft, remind me how he got that Lerasium bead and for what purpose. I note in his letter that it now lies protected by or in his body. I am unaware of another such object.
In any case, we’ll have to wait for Alice to reveal some insider insights into Hoid – if that’s what it is.
@44 Babylon 5 from Kosh, who managed to be mysterious and cryptic even when he was stating a bald fact.
I’m still inclined to think Hoid has a good end in mind, but I don’t trust his means. The game he seems to be playing is on too big a field to make it easy to count individual lives and nations.
@46 STBLST
Hoid does help several proto-Radiants, and he does seem to genuinely enjoy being nice to Shallan. But no matter how helpful and friendly Hoid is, it’s worth noting that he never actually trusts other people with any knowledge about himself. He prefers to keep his allies in the dark while he maneuvers behind the scenes, using their success as a means for an unknown end. My personal theory is that he is trying to reconstruct Adonalsium, but I don’t have great supporting evidence for that guess.
What we do know is that Hoid is willing to sacrifice Roshar in the name of his larger purpose. We also know that no matter how free he is with advice, he refuses to share any information that might endanger him or allow other people to figure out what his plans are. Dalinar could benefit from having Hoid’s knowledge of Odium’s true nature, previous Desolations, and the current status of the Herald of War, but Hoid doesn’t offer to share. @42 sheesania has the right idea; Hoid can be likeable and funny and cool without actually being trustworthy.
To many – I have not read all the cosmere books, so it is hard for me to follow the discussion on Hoid. That said, I have to say that I have seen Hoid in only three places (books) – (1) Warbreaker where he was a historical storyteller, (2) An Emperor’s Soul where he met with the main character in the ending. Nothing sinister there though. (3) Stormlight Archives where he plays Wit.
I don’t see him as ominous or anything. I see Hoid as a wild card that Brandon has put there because he has plans for a larger story. Distrusting Hoid or wondering about his motives is premature at this point at least for me. Until I read the other books that he had appeared, I don’t want to form an opinion. Because this time, everything is just speculation.
Just my thoughts.
P.S. If Hoid was in Elantris, I don’t remember seeing him there.
sheighlagh @49 – Hoid has appeared in every Cosmere novel. Many of his early appearances were not readily noticable, except that he actually used the name “Hoid” in several of them. In Elantris, he was the beggar who helped Sarene smuggle weapons into the city of Elantris. In the Mistborn books, he’s variously an informant, a beggar, a coachman, and even a leader for the Terris people. In Warbreaker, he’s a storyteller, in Emperor’s Soul, the Imperial Fool. I don’t recall that he was in Sixth of the Dusk, and I know he’s not in Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell.
He knows people. He knows things. He does things. And he doesn’t tell anyone exactly what he’s up to.
For many people, the presence of so many off-world items in Mraize’s collection seemed sinister. Hoid has every bit as big a collection, and likely bigger, if somewhat more select. For all we know, Hoid is working with Mraize, and all that stuff was collected by Hoid in the first place. (I might be wrong on that – maybe we know something to preclude that particular bit of cooperation and I just can’t remember it at the moment.)
Anyway, the point is that Hoid has his fingers in virtually every pie cooking, and while he seems benign, there’s a lot he’s not telling. He’s also going to some pretty extreme lengths to get hold of Investiture from every system, and we still don’t know why. I’ve seen the speculation that he’s trying to put Adonalsium back together; I’ve also wondered if he’s not trying to become a mini-Adonalsium himself. Whatever his purpose, whatever his motivation… yes, it’s all speculation – but that’s no reason to necessarily trust him to be an unequivocal good guy.
@50 Wetlandernw, you know more about the Cosmere and Hoid’s appearances than I. I have only read the 1st Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, Emperor’s Soul, and started on Elantris – to list the books where he makes an appearance, besides the 2 Stormlight ones. I had heard that Hoid had taken a Lerasium bead in Scadrial, but don’t recall reading about it. What were the circumstances? If he is collecting magical objects from various worlds, perhaps he needs them in order to combat Rayse/Odium. In any case, I don’t see anything sinister about his actions and motives. If he had such motives, why would he divulge the possible disparity between his goals and Dalinar’s to him. That is being open and honest rather than manipulative. Unless you argue that power corrupts and that Hoid’s alleged accumulation of magical objects will have a corrosive influence. I wonder also how Hoid and Zahel/Vasher will interact when they meet.
@@@@@ 46 STBLT
It’s funny you should mention that, because I thought of the similarity myself. Oh and you’re forgetting something, Adolin wasn’t wrong. Kaladin didn’t deserve his father’s trust. And even think they seem off for the same reasons: pure, unabashed hate. Or do you think lying, insubordination and treason are somehow ok traits so long as we’re talking about a main character?
Hoid hates Rayse, not just Odium the shard. Sure the shard is almost unequivocally a villain, and Rayse the person might have been too. But Hoid is going out of his way to gain a lot of magical power and the recipient of Hoid’s letters doesn’t seem fit to simply trust his actions. More telling is the fact that several of the people sent after him from the “17th Shard” are characters I know to be trustworthy and straight up good guys.
We know he was there at the Shattering of Adonalsium. We also know that he doesnt currently hold any of the Shards. But again, he’s getting all the Investiture he can.
You want to know what I honestly think? I think he’s jealous. I think he honestly believes he deserves some of that power. And anyone who trusts someone who wants power is setting themselves up.
@52
More telling is the fact that several of the people sent after him from the “17th Shard” are characters I know to be trustworthy and straight up good guys.
Yes but why are they sent after him? Is this a matter of them being sent after Hoid to stop him? Or to recruit him? Or are they sent to find him and help him? Each situation sheds a slightly different light on the question of if Hoid is trustworthy or not.
@52 wcarter
“Or do you think lying, insubordination, and treason are somehow ok traits as long as we’re talking about a main character?”
I’ve never bought into protagonist-centered morality. I just don’t think Kaladin has any obligation to follow the rules of a vicious class system where who you are depends on who your ancestors murdered. There’s even a scene in Words of Radiance where Kaladin thinks about how killing complete strangers is completely okay under the Alethi system of law and morality, but assassinating a social superior is the worst crime you can commit.
The last time Kaladin trusted a lighteyes completely, he got a slave brand on his forehead. He lies to Dalinar because, however much he wants to trust him, he’s still scared of being betrayed again. Amaram’s friendship with Dalinar is obviously not helpful. As for insubordination, Dalinar is only alive because Kaladin disobeyed orders and came back to save his army. I don’t recall hearing any complaints that Kaladin should have done what he was told back then.
And “treason”? Treason to what? An Alethi system where everyone is born into their rank, and you’re expected to obey your superiors because of their eye color? Kaladin has no reason to be loyal to a society that turned his brother into cannon fodder, made him into a slave, and forced him to serve as an arrow catcher. You could make a real case that Kaladin is disloyal to Dalinar, who saved his life and treated him with respect, but the idea of being loyal to a dysfunctional tyranny like Alethkar is ridiculous.
@54: Kaladin plotted to have the king, the very man he swore to protect, assassinated. He gave his word he would protect Elhokar and yet he fails to denounce a known threat to his life making himself an accomplice. Even worst, he gives Shards to known traitor and goes as far as to give his silent agreement to the ploy.
No matter what you may think of Alethi society: murder is not considered acceptable outside of warfare. Even the murder of darkeyes is punishable, so this isn’t just a battle of the class. It is Kaladin blaming one man for his misery and deciding the need killing such as to atone himself.
Let’s be fair, Kaladin did betray the Kholins. He may have had the greatest reasons to explain why he thought it was a good idea, the fact remains he betrayed them.
And Adolin was right to distrust Kaladin. The fact it turned out right in the end does not change Kaladin’s actions.
As for Hoid, I despise him. I see him as an individual willing to sacrifice innocent life to achieve his personal goals which may include safekeeping part of humanity, but is also heavily tainted into self-service. He’ll help our heroes as long as it serves his needs and he won’t qualm over who he has to sacrifice in doing so. His interaction within the menagerie chapter are enough to put him into my personal black list. I do not care how funny or witty he is: I dislike him and I don’t trust him either.
@55 Gepeto
Right and wrong aren’t determined by what you promise to do. “I swore an oath” isn’t really any different from “I was just following orders”. I completely agree that Kaladin is an accomplice to the plot, but that doesn’t actually mean that he’s wrong. Elkohar killed Moash’s grandparents. He sent an elderly couple to the dungeons because his buddy Roshone told him they were bad. When he couldn’t find a magistrate to agree with him, he just kept them there until they died. In any reasonable society, he would have been removed from office and sent to jail, with negligent homicide as the kindest verdict for his actions. However, Elkohar is the King, so nothing happened to him. Roshone didn’t even go to jail, but they sent him out to the countryside so he could murder darkeyes without involving Elkohar.
“Murder is not considerable acceptable outside of warfare.” I’m sure all of the terrified peasants Dalinar murdered back when he was the Blackthorn find that very comforting. Of course, the ruling class decides what is and isn’t warfare. Slaughtering defenseless conscripts from within the comfort of your invulnerable Shardplate? Honest warfare. Killing the man who murdered your squad and sold you into slavery? Murder. How convenient that Alethi society’s definition of murder happens to serve the interests of the people who own Shards, command armies, and serve as magistrates, while it leaves peasants completely out of luck.
Kaladin’s brother was drafted to serve as a child soldier by a lord with a personal grudge against his family. When he predictably died, no one called it murder. Kaladin’s entire squad was executed by their commanding officer, who then branded him as a slave. No one investigated or asked any questions; Amaram was a lighteyed officer, and the people he killed or enslaved were…well, hardly people at all. The written laws say that the murder of darkeyes is punishable. The unwritten laws say something very different, if you notice what actually happens when a lighteye murders a social inferior.
Kaladin did betray the Kholins. He also betrayed Sadeas, disobeying orders to go back and rescue Dalinar. Treason is a word that powerful people like to throw around, insisting that oaths are unbreakable and that loyalty is sacred, but loyalty has to be earned. Dalinar does a good deal to actually deserve Kaladin’s loyalty, but Elkohar sends Roshone off with a slap on the wrist after accidentally helping him murder Moash’s grandparents, has Kaladin arrested for daring to challenge the man who murdered his squad and enslaved him, and generally does everything in his power to ensure that Kaladin feels no loyalty whatsoever to him. Sometimes, people really do get what they deserve.
@@@@@ 56 dptullos
I’m with Gepeto on this one.
Kaladin served Dalinar by choice. He chose to give his word to the man that he would protect him and his family. He chose to stay when Dalinar offered both him and his men their freedom. He chose to not only not report Moash’s actions–a lie by omission–he actually agreed to help him assassinate the king. That is a conscious willful betrayal and it’s what cost him his powers and Syl her very sanity!
That’s what makes him a traitor. On the other hand, Kaladin didn’t betray Sadeas, he was a captive slave not a willing solider. The two incidents aren’t comparable.
As far as the Parshendi go, Kaladin doesn’t really want to go killing them nor should he. He job is ostensibly to protect people.
Yes, Amaram betrayed him, but that doesn’t excuse his own actions. Two wrongs don’t make a right as everyone’s grandma always said. Also the very fact Dalinar knew the specific incident involving Moash’s grandparents all but guarantees that Elhokar made a mistake and very likely an isolated one. Is he a good king? No not really, but he’s hardly Caligula either. Especially given the culture Vorinism has instilled in all of them.
Saying he should be killed because he trusted his peer and made a mistake is tantamount to saying that every judge and every single member of every single jury that sent an innocent man to prison because the evidence was against them (as near as they could tell) deserve to die. That is the statement you’re saying no matter how you slice the cake.
If Kaladin had left at the end of WoK and Moash had stayed, it would not have been Kaladin’s responsibility.
Kaladin redeems himself later, but he very nearly lost his bond altogether.
Unlike some, I actually like reading Kaladin (though his attitude grates on me at times). But he has to hold himself to a higher standard to be a Radiant and keep the power he needs to protect his men like he wants.
So why should I have any more respect for him or Moash than for Sadeas or Amaram during the times they’re slumming at the same level of moral bankruptcy as the two light eyed pawn scum?
@56: I would argue our modern day has plenty of individuals who rod in prison waiting for a fair trial only to die in between and no President has yet paid any price for it…
Elhokar has committed the mistake of following a bad advice. Need I recall he was only 19 years old? By all mean, he shouldn’t have been put in charge of a kingdom. If anyone is to blame, it is Dalinar who left him there to his own device so he could “make a trip to the West”. Elhokar also didn’t single-handily decided these people would die: he failed to follow up properly and he unjustly imprisoned them based on false accusations he didn’t see as such due to the trust he had in Roshone. The affair was bad, but it was dealt with afterwards. Yes, it is sad for Moash’s parents, but it was dealt with. Justice was served, so unless you believe death must be met by death, then the affair has been classified. Further death are not warranted and by all account Elhokar did not reproduced the same mistake or else Dalinar would have had trouble to recall which event Kaladin talked about.
I don’t agree with the slaughtering of peasants, but Dalinar was acting under an act of war. Whether that war was justified or not is another story. Besides, we don’t see Dalinar kill any peasants that we know of.
Kaladin’s brother was drafted by a petty lord, yes, but there was no law which prevented it. It was not illegal to send Tien to the army: it was morally wrong, but not unlawful. Amaram pointed it out to Lirin: kids younger than that sometimes serve. The moment he was drafted, Tien became a soldier and he died in battle, so no it wasn’t murder. Whether or not it was morally right to use an untrained crew to gain an advantage is one question which should have been answered by high authorities, but Tien remained a soldier killed in the line of duty. His young age does not change the fact it was legal and cannot be considered as murder (I should also point out Tien died at 14 while Kaladin enrolled at 15, he wasn’t that much younger than Kaladin. In their worlds, it is normal for teenagers to join the army). Even Kaladin does not consider it murder. He does not blame Amaram for Tien, he blames Roshone who send him there in the first place.
Kaladin is unjust to blame Elhokar for his misery: it is misguided blame he is happy to cast because he dislikes the man. The link was tenuous at best. Elhokar pleaded for leniency and Dalinar agreed to sent Roshone as a foreign town lord. They likely thought this was sufficient punishment: they can’t be held accountable for Roshone’s spite which may have been terrible, but Lirin was not guiltless. He did steal the spheres. Kaladin however needed a culprit, someone he could touch with his anger. Luckily, he realizes his own mistake blissfully in time by realizing Elhokar did not mean to do harm: he just made a mistake. Kaladin too made a mistake and this mistake was betrayal. It was wrong of him, but it would have been more wrong not to admit others can make mistakes as well and they may not need killing for it.
As for Sadeas, Kaladin broke no oath: he never gave his word he would serve him. He was forced to. There were no broken trust here.
@57 wcarter
I agree with part of your argument. Dalinar freed Kaladin and gave him a real choice, and Kaladin did choose to protect him and his family. Dalinar has earned Kaladin’s loyalty, or at the very least not his not actively helping Moash to murder Dalinar’s nephew. What I object to are Gepeto’s attempts to defend the Alethi concepts of insubordination, treason, and oathkeeping. In this one special circumstance, Kaladin really shouldn’t turn on Dalinar. But he should be condemned for betraying the trust of a man who did right by him, not for betraying “his” King or plotting to assassinate a social superior.
Kaladin’s “betrayal” of Sadeas and his betrayal of Dalinar aren’t the same at all. But under the delightful Alethi legal system, he can be executed for failing to follow his owner’s orders. Since Gepeto claimed that “the murder of darkeyes is punishable”, I just wanted to point out the vast exception made for slaves. So much for an Alethi society that “isn’t just a battle of the class”.
Was Kaladin right to want to kill Elkohar? No. While I can understand Moash’s perspective, killing Elkohar isn’t going to bring his grandparents back. Kaladin is angry, he wants a target, and Elkohar is perfectly unsympathetic, entitled, and frankly awful at being a king. None of these qualities merit the death penalty. So I’m not so much defending Kaladin as arguing against Gepeto’s automatic condemnation of “traitor”. Kaladin actually betrays a meaningful committment that he willingly gave to Dalinar, and he should be condemned for that, instead of a meaningless legal accusation that the Alethi ruling class uses against darkeyes who kill their superiors.
As for Elkohar’s mistake with Moash’s parents; yes, it is an isolated incident for him and for Alethkar. Moash has a slightly different perspective on the man who threw his grandparents into a cell to die, a man Dalinar can only defend by saying he doesn’t know what he’s doing. He’s not Caligula, and he’s not actively trying to be evil, but his mistakes have very real consequences for people further down the social ladder. Vorinism ensures that Elkohar is safe and protected from his worst mistakes, while Moash’s grandparents never really have a chance when they offend someone powerful. Killing Elkohar isn’t the answer, but someone has to change a system that basically lets high-ranking lighteyes do whatever they want, legally, as long as they go through the right motions.
Kaladin was wrong. No matter how much anyone likes the guy, that’s a fact. Kaladin knew he was wrong, part of the reason that bond was broken was that he knew he wasn’t behaving honorably. It’s also true that he atoned for his wrongdoing. He foiled the assassination attempt, even willing to sacrifice his life to right his wrong. Context is important but those two facts are undeniable. He’s a kid that made a mistake and worked his ass off to fix it. Knowing what I know of his character I’m sure that he won’t make that particular mistake again. I’d be highly disappointed in him if he does.
Reading about people going over Kaladin’s decisions again in the comments started to make me wonder: is he losing his powers purely because of the conflicting oaths/doing the worse thing? Or is he losing the oaths because he’s not making a proper decision, even now?
While I think Kaladin does mean to help Moash out, his “help” is to not really be involved and to let Moash have a set of Shards. Something which, at any time, Kaladin could still stop: he still hasn’t really been depowered yet or realized that his bond is weakening.
And in the meantime, Moash having the Shards also means he’s increased the potential to defeat a returning Szeth as much as possible – while I’m sure other members of Bridge 4 would have done a fine job with them, Moash has the highest combination of drive (not just for his revenge either, although that contributes) and physical prowess. Considering the spanking Szeth delivered to everyone, every little bit of future combat potential is important.
The problem is, Kaladin can’t commit partway to something. It’s just not how he works as a person. Yet if he doesn’t say something he makes either Dalinar disappointed or Moash sad…so he lies to Dalinar and makes a promise to Moash in the heat of the moment.
I dunno, I feel like the Honor argument is the more likely one but, from a character perspective, it’s more satisfying to see this more as Kaladin struggling with indecisiveness.
@@@@@ 59 dptullos
Now see that, that we can agree on. Vorinism and its horrible caste system are a cancer on the societies that follow them.
I agree that Kaladin’s actions with regards to Sadeas shouldn’t be viewed as the same and the Vorin system needs major reformations (i.e. it needs to be thrown out like the garbage and completely replaced). Sanderson did an excellent job designing it as an in-world religion and making it feel authentic. But my own cultural values make me categorically hate it (perhaps the best evidence I can offer that he did do a good job).
I just hope going forward both Kaladin and Elhokar grow and truly earn each other’s respects and the roles that have been placed on them.
Sadeas? He’d better stay dead. As for Amaram and Roshone, they should do everyone a favor and hug rabid white spines.
EvilMonkey @60 – I think you hit on exactly the reason Kaladin’s bond with Syl was broken: he knew he was behaving dishonorably. I missed the whole discussion last week on that subject, but we’ll hit it again this week when Kaladin considers the question right there on the page. Y’all will know what I think then… :D
@59: I would like to point out I never said Kaladin should be trialed and condemned for his betrayal. I said he did betray his words, his oath and the law, by all means he could be trialed for it, but I do not agree he should.
I will not however sit here and claim Kaladin was entirely entitled to behave as he did just because two lighteyes wronged him or just because society is unfair. You don’t fight injustice by creating new injustices, which is exactly what Kaladin sought to do. He failed to acknowledge the justice system, while imperfect, did prosecute Roshone. The punishment was not up to Kaladin’s desires, but this is another story. A crime was done, punishment was ensure. Roshone was the culprit, not Elhokar.
The book also mentions how darkeyes found guilty of crimes are made slaves while lighteyes are executed. Slaves as thus, de facto, criminals who’s live were spared in order of usefulness. Whether those crimes truly were crimes worthy of slavery, we do not know. We do not have enough examples to pass judgment. We have however not seen anyone blatantly kill slaves. Sadeas is not killing slaves: he is utilizing them in a horrific war tactic which serves the same purpose, but he is not on record executing them. He is not putting them in line while ordering his archers to shoot.
Kaladin was wrong. He paid for it. He atone for it. Whether or not there will be additional consequences for him is up to the author, but I hope there won’t be. I would say justice has been serve more than enough for his mistake.
This being said, I am not defending the Alethi society, I am trying to avoid condemning it unequivocally: simply because there are injustices does not mean everything is caused by one. I also do not believe injustice gives anyone reason enough to take someone else’s life, more so someone you have swore to protect.
I would just like to say that the fact you guys can debate so much over Kaladin’s decision means that Sanderson did a great job setting up a morally complex situation. There’s a lot of multidimensional characters, backstories, society and religion, history, even magical mechanics playing into this situation. He managed to balance all that and tell a satisfying – yet nuanced – story.
@43 Isilel: On Mistborn – Secret History, Brandon Sanderson just posted something about it this morning: https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/comments/42o8aq/mistborn_secret_history_explanation/
@46 STBLST: I would certainly agree that Hoid’s interference has often been helpful and kind. Indeed, I find his encouragement of Shallan in that flashback very touching. But I think using the world “helping” would imply that he did all that out of mostly altruistic motives – which I don’t think were Hoid’s primary impetuses in those encounters. He didn’t advise Kaladin just because he wanted Kaladin to make good decisions; he wanted to encourage Kaladin to use his powers. He didn’t encourage Shallan just because he wanted to help a young girl in a very difficult situation; he also wanted to find out about her Lightweaving. So yes, he’s done a lot of good things, but for murky reasons. That’s why I call it “interfering”.
@49 sheiglagh: Yeah, I think Hoid would seem less suspicious to me if I had just read the books and didn’t also deluge myself with extra information Sanderson has given at Q&A’s, signings, etc.
Have we seen many examples in fantasy where the magic system is subjective to the same degree as the one on Roshar? I can’t think of many, not at the top of my head. Its certainly the only one I’ve seen where the leveling up of powers has less to do with practice and more to do with the bond one makes with the granter of that power. What I mean is once you make the oath you can already do everything involved in that level. It’s just a matter of discovering how much you gain from the making of the oath. It’s almost like the power is a side effect to your communion with spren. The connection is more important than the power. I can understand why that may bother some people, especially those of us conditioned to expect certain things when it comes to fantasy and magic. I find it refreshing and it makes for an awesome read.
@@@@@58, 64 Gepeto
Naturally, the people who write and interpret the rules never get into trouble under them. The game is already rigged in their favor, so they can always find a legal justification for getting any with anything they want to do. I actually agree with everything you say about how powerful lighteyes don’t usually break the law; the problem is that they don’t have to.
Want those troublesome jewelers out of the way? Get your buddy the King to bring charges against them. Can’t sustain those charges in front of any magistrate? Just keep the old people in jail until they die. It wasn’t so much “sad” as “fatal” for Moash’s grandparents, but the matter was solemnly prosecuted by powerful lighteyes, who decided not to punish their fellow lighteyes.
Tien died in the same way. Of course the citylord has the legal right to draft the lower classes. And if he chooses to use that right to draft the child of his hated enemy, that’s perfectly in keeping with the law. Everyone in town knows exactly what he’s doing, but the law is on his side, so he gets his way. This event marks the second time that Roshone has used the Alethi legal code to kill someone he wanted dead, and the second time that he got away with it.
When a darkeyes decides to stab his neighbor and rob his house, the law calls it murder. When a highprince decides to stab his neighbor and steal his lands, the law calls it war. All the peasants he brings along with him are fully justified in stabbing their neighbors so that he can gain a few more acres, and the best stabbers can get fancy uniforms and improve their social status. If they try any of this “war” business on their own, though, they’re nothing but bandits. Only lighteyes can give them proper, legal permission to murder and steal.
@@@@@ Gepeto 64
“We have however not seen anyone blatantly kill slaves. Sadeas is not killing slaves: he is utilizing them in a horrific war tactic which serves the same purpose, but he is not on record executing them.”
I distinctly remember Sadeas ordering Kaladin to be strung up before a highstorm so that the Stormfather could “judge” him. Kaladin survived thanks to his magical healing ability, but anyone who wasn’t a proto-Radiant would have been killed. That episode represents the kind of legalistic thinking typical of Vorinism; Sadeas isn’t executing Kaladin, he’s just staking him out before a monster hurricane and seeing what happens.
I’m impressed by your willingness to believe in the Alethi justice system, though. We know Kaladin was falsely accused and enslaved without trial because Amaram wanted to steal his Shards. And we know that people can be enslaved for debt, because it almost happened to Shallan’s brother Jushu. So really, people can only be enslaved if they offend someone powerful, or if they owe someone lots of money. Nothing wrong with that.
Lots of things are legal in Alethi society. Child soldiers, slavery, and hanging people from the side of a building just before a hurricane hits are all perfectly okay. It’s wonderful how, in a society where only powerful lighteyes get to write the laws, the laws always seem to favor powerful lighteyes.
@66EvilMonkey: The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head for Rosharan magic is how holy magic is treated in some sword and sorcery settings/Dungeons and Dragons settings. Part of this Sanderson invites I think, considering how Syl even pointed out she is effectively a tiiiiny part of a god. And even then, I feel like the spren’s judgment, while not unimportant, is not the deciding factor (as opposed to the systems where it’s a god granting the magic). I wouldn’t even say it’s like how some warlocks work (or how high level artifacts work), where the implication is you gain more power by appeasing the power-granting force/entity: for both good and ill the Radiants have a lot of power over the spren.
Alice @@@@@ 50 – Thanks for the info,. :-) I need to re-read the first Mistborn trilogy and Elantris. I just finished re-reading (translate that to listening) Alloy of Law and currently listening to Shadow of Self in anticipation for the release of Bands of Mourning. I’ve already pre-ordered both Bands of Mourning and Calamity on audible. :-) I’m waiting to buy the hardcopy with the hope that I will be able to catch Brandon in one of his appearances. :-)
That said, I really need to re-read the original Mistborn trilogy. I had forgotten so much of the Lord Ruler. That was on the first book, The Final Empire.
And though this is not the right forum, I would like to add that Steris is a secondary/tertiary character that I would have liked to see more developed. We’ve been talking about secondary characters in the other chapter. I think Steris is a fun character and it is sad that she is relegated on the background.
@67: I will say it again: Roshone was punished for his crimes. He was not “above the law” as you state it: he saw found guilty and punished according the law. Nobody has been seen to be above the law, even Sadeas. The problem is they can’t prove his guilt, even if they know it for true.
Sadeas ordered Kaladin to be judge by a Highstorm because he single-handily cause the failure of an attack by pushing for an untested technique. Need I recall the lighteyed in charge was hanged. Kaladin at least was given a chance to survive.
Changing the subject, I’d like some opinions here. Is everyone here going to be busy reading The Bands of Mourning this week? If I put up the Chapter 68 reread, will there be people here to discuss it? Would you prefer to wait until next week?
I’m not going to be reading BoM this week, since I’m waiting for my ebook library to buy it. (It can get expensive being a Sanderson fan. Just too many of those blasted books to buy.)
Here we see the Skybreaker (@Gepeto) in the everlasting debate with the Windrunner (@dptullos) over the question of justice and moral law. You both are right here the laws were followed in the case of lighteyes and they weren’t morally right in many cases (at least according to most peoples own personal moral standards). In the case of Roshone, he did not escape consequence of his actions and in many of the other cases of injustice that we’ve witnessed in the books they do follow the laws as set down by the land but often times those laws are morally unjust. The letter of law is being followed but spirit of the law, and what is right, isn’t being followed. (In other words: Honor is dead.)
It sorta becomes a question about if you believe in an absolute morality. And if you believe that morality is expressed in the law then following the law is more than just legally doing the right it is morally the right thing to do. (Skybreaker mentality). If that morality is external to the laws and can be subverted by the law then following the law is less important than following what you know to the right morally (Windbreaker mentality).
Sad thing is Kaladin is suppose to follow the Windbreakers but his actions and thoughts are too twisted up with the injustices done to him that he falls off the track.
@Wetlandernw
After work today, I’m going to pick up my copy of Bands of Mourning and then go into semi-selcusion until it’s finish. So I’ll probably join the discussion late for Chapter 68 if it comes up next week.
I note that the suspicion about Hoid’s motives has progressed to a condemnation of Hoid (Gepeto) and Kaladin (Gepeto and wcarter). I find it interesting, if not disconcerting, that some people are predisposed to questioning other people’s motives – whether in life or literature, without an evident cause. Hoid appears to be merely acting on the basis of self-preservation in keeping his powers secret. He has already revealed to Dalinar that his enemy is the same as Dalinar’s – the ‘father of hatred’, i.e., Odium. The fact that some world-hoppers considered trustworthy by wcarter are hunting him just testifies to the desire of the apparent leader of the 17th Shard to prevent Hoid from interfering in Rosharian matters. Not that Hoid is believed by them to be acting out of evil intentions. The tone of the letters between Hoid and his 17th Shard correspondent is friendly – not antagonistic.
As Evil Monkey and wetlandernw have noted, Kaladin’s involvement in the plot to assassinate Elhokar is wrong. The motivation, however, also stems from Elhokar’s stated earlier intention to kill Kaladin for daring to challenge a Lighteyes of high rank in public. That royal sentence was changed to imprisonment only upon Dalinar’s threat to treat the king as an enemy if carried out. I note that the same treatment is not afforded other major characters. When Adolin kills Sadeas with his knife when he has initiated the fight, that gets no condemnation by some who are quick to condemn Kaladin for agreeing that Elhokar needs to be eliminated. Sadeas did not present an immediate threat to Adolin and family under the circumstances in Urithiru – only a potential threat. No condemnation of Shallan is likely to be forthcoming when we review the flashback chapter where she strangles her paralyzed father with his necklace present in order to prevent any further violence or repercussions. Dalinar’s violent past has also not elicited such condemnation. If that is due to Dalinar’s character reformation, Kaladin’s later self-sacrificing effort to protect Elhokar entitles him to even more consideration.
@73 kei_rin: Nice way of putting it. I’m not sure how it follows that this is a conflict between absolute morality and relative morality, though. To me, it seems that both Skybreakers and Windrunners are following outside, objective models of morality – for the Skybreakers, this is the law, and for the Windrunners, this is a set of principles like “protect those who can’t protect themselves”. Kaladin struggles partly because he’s letting his emotions and prejudices overrule these principles. His morality is centering more on himself and what he wants rather than an absolute standard, and that puts him at odds with the spirit of the Windrunners.
However, this aligns suspiciously with some of my own ideas about morality, so I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m reading my own opinions into the text. I’d be interested to see what others think.
@74 STBLST: One of the great things about literature is that we can question, explore, and judge characters’ motives without all the complications of doing so with real people in real life, and thus clarify our ideas about morality with genuinely complex situations. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that people are debating Hoid’s motives and coming to different conclusions on them – even if I would disagree with, for instance, Gepeto’s analysis of him (I don’t think there’s nearly enough evidence that Hoid is evil; I merely find him suspicious and likely to have mixed motives). As far as I’m concerned, there’s nothing wrong with judging fictional characters as long as one does it even-handedly and with careful attention to the text. I, for one, would probably consider Adolin and Dalinar’s actions wrong and Shallan’s a somewhat questionable instance of justifiable homicide – but if others disagree with me, I don’t particularly mind so long as they’re thinking it through and being true to the text.
@69: Yeah. I have not read Bands of Mourning just yet, too busy that I am with finishing the Codex Alera (Did I say how much I wished there were more Crassus into this story?). I didn’t want to interrupt my current reading, so Mistborn Era 2 will have to wait until then.
I however understand the sentient all too well as you perhaps noticed in my numerous rants on the matter. I understand why Brandon works this way ,as an author, but, as a reader, it leaves me wanting for certain arcs to be further explored. It also creates heart-breaking situations when a reader learns how his favorite character just isn’t as important to the author as the story led you to believe. While I understand the need to keep the story concise and on track, I do wish it wouldn’t be so closely set onto a limited group of three (in the case of SA) and one/two (in the case of Mistborn).
@73: Hmmm knight Radiant order testing did give me Skybreaker. While I admit an unjust law can be twisted to serve a greater good, I do not agree in self-service which is basically what Kaladin was doing. He tried to convince himself he was doing the world a favor, but in truth he was simply doing himself one. Luckily, he saw through his bad reasoning and stopped himself.
@74: I do not condemn Hoid, I simply entirely disagree with his approach and he strikes me as a non-trust worthy individual due to his ability to throw someone under the bus to serve his higher purposes. He didn’t need to use Shallan, he didn’t need to backstab Adolin in order to help Kaladin move over his distrust: he simply used this way as it was the easiest one available, not caring if it hurt an undeserving individual. It is this behavior I severely condemn. Hoid thus does not have my respect. It doesn’t mean he is evil, evil, but I do think he could be shall it serve his purposes.
Also, I would like to know when I stated I did not condemn Adolin for murdering Sadeas? On the contrary, I believe I have done my best to draft out all the possible punishment scenarios for him, but I do think some are too harsh just as 2 weeks in prison was too harsh for Kaladin insubordination. Yes, I like the character, but I still try to be fair.
Dalinar’s dark past is not something I feel apt at condemning as I did not read about it. Impressions can be so deceiving at times.
@75 sheesania, I basically agree with you, but would emphasize your point that one should be guided by the actual descriptions of the fictional characters to avoid bias. It’s not as if we can judge these characters by their facial expressions, intonations, or body English. We have only what we read. We should also practice not imputing bad things to a character without actual literary evidence or strong hint. Literature has lessons to teach in that it models how we – particularly the young, react to real people. In that context, I would need to see citations where Hoid appears to be acting selfishly and dishonorably before becoming suspicious of him. Being mysterious and hurling insults in his role as ‘jester’ doesn’t count. As to his revelation to Dalinar that he would be willing to see Roshar destroyed if that would accomplish what he needs that is not a sign of callousness since he includes the statement that he would cry over the supposed necessity for such an outcome. If you believe the first part, you should also accept the second. It is a surprising revelation both in terms of his stated priorities and implied power. I suppose that it is meant as a lesson to Dalinar who will be in a world leadership position as the effective Alethi leader and Bondsmith Radiant. While all the principal characters in the Stormlight books have flaws – as do we, we need to look at their goals and general behavior to assess them.
STBLST @@@@@ 74 – I am unsure if you were here when we discussed what types of murders our characters committed. One of us here is a lawyer IRL so he was able to explain to us all the levels from Murder One to manslaugther, etc. It was a very lively discussion. So many questions, lots of answers and of course, lots of opinions too. In short, everyone of all our characters were called murderers. LOL
In short, Kaladin is not alone on being accused of murder. Adolin was the first one accused of murder. And in here, he was actually sentenced to exile or execution. LOL Of course, I was the first to say NO!!!
Anyway, right now Kaladin has taken center stage. Next chapter, we will probably discuss someone else. :-)
*Off to listening to Bands of Mourning***
I have only read the first Wax and Wayne book. At the moment I have to read too many nonfiction books to have time for the others.
Since I have a lot of free time atm but the snowstorm here on the East Coast didn’t delay my copy of Bands of Mourning (yay), I’ll be reading it as well. I’ll probably be done before Thursday but that’s the benefit of having above average time to read it. So I can comment but I seem to be in the minority.
I will at least be lurking. If I can I will take a look and maybe have a comment or two (I will be done with BoM by then also).
@78: Ah yes, that was a great discussion. Figuring out how our modern day law system would judge both Shallan and Adolin with the very valuable inputs of a true criminal lawyers.
If I recall properly, Adolin was guilty of first degree murder, but could perhaps get away with third degree murder or involuntary manslaughter if he is lucky in his defense as there were no actual witnesses. Shallan had literally no option but being sentenced to first degree murder due to her use of poison.
It was all very interesting.
All this to say Kaladin hardly is the only character we have thought of in terms of legal rights.
FYI, I seriously doubt Adolin will be exiled due to huh circumstances and plotting. In other words, Brandon already used the exile card with another character: I doubt he is going to use it again for Adolin. He is likely to get disowned, demoted and being forced to surrender his Shards if they don’t find a way to actually get him a death sentence in disguise. Exile though, that one won’t happen, I am quite sure of it.
@75
I see what you mean. This is almost becoming a bit like study in being able to express a personal philosophy on morals. Kinda like what Shallan had to do back in WoK. And it looks like I was a bit mixed up in what I trying to say.
Syl has said before that laws don’t matter as much to as doing what is right. Thus implying that for Windrunners morality isn’t always found within following the law. I would call as not having an absolute view of moral. The morality of a situation is based on the situation itself. They are constraints within their own way of looking at the world but it is different from Skybreakers. Personally I don’t feel like Windrunners are following an outside, objective model based on the words that they swear because I feel like the words that we’ve heard so far aren’t the complete moral center of the way the Winderunners look at these things. (Kaladin still has more words to say after all.) Maybe this will change when I know what the other two(?) oaths are.
This kinda also relates to my belief that Syl can’t actually tell Kaladin what is right or wrong. She can only confirm what he knows to be right or wrong. Kaladin himself knows when something is right or wrong. He knows when he’s acting with honor and when he’s not and it doesn’t have to do with the law of situation. The moral of the situation are internal and relative to Kaladin. Given a different set of circumstances Kaladin could kill Elhokar without it effecting his bond but in the current situation he knows it’s not right and that’s why it puts strain on his bond.
Skybreakers seem to me to have be first founded on a belief that the laws are based on idea of moral absolutes that can be codified and followed. That means following of the law is morally right even above your own feelings of right and wrong. This is part of what drives Sezth so crazy IMO because he does stick to moral belief that the law is morally right even though that makes him weapon that kills so many people which he also knows to be wrong but in this case for him it’s morally less wrong than not following the law that makes him kill people. He can’t look at the situation and make the choice of what is right or wrong because the moral of the situation are already decided by the law of the situation. It’s external to him.
@76
While I admit an unjust law can be twisted to serve a greater good …
I want to point out that the opposite is true as well and there are cases of it that we’ve seen in Stormlight . Just laws can be twisted to serve an injustice. I think the greatest example of this is when Roshone send Tein to the Amaram’s army.
@78
I kinda giggled here because it often seems like when as a collective group we aren’t talking about Kaladin, we are talking about Adolin. Even when the conversation goes towards other characters like Hoid and Dalinar. In fact Kaladin is barely even mentioned in this chapter and we are still discussing the ramification and moral implications of his choices back in the last chapter.
@83: I personally believe killing Elhokar was both legally and morally wrong which is why I give Kaladin such a hard time for agreeing to it in the first place. While I do believe laws cannot be absolute, I do think laws have to be used to define a proper set of morality as not everyone is able to maintain such standard without the incentive of punishment. In other words, I do believe laws such as “you will not kill” and “you will not steal” are required for a society to function.
While good laws can be twisted, the example at hand, Tien illustrates more how laws can be incomplete. The law tells Roshone he has to provide a list of individuals he believes his town can spare for the army in the event not enough volunteers would manifest themselves. As the third “untalented” (we know Tien is talented, but not in what his village considers important) carpenter’s apprentice, Tien indeed and sadly fits the criteria of “expendable” which is the argument Roshone uses to justify his choice.The problem is the law didn’t define a minimum age to do so. It isn’t so much he twisted it, it is more it didn’t exist, hence he had all the liberty he wanted to act as he did. Of course, it was morally wrong, but without laws there is just nothing they can do about it. Had there been a proper law, Roshone would have had his hands tied. Both justice and morality would have been served.
Hence good laws are required and it is clear Alethkar needs to re-think theirs.
Kaladin dilemma though was more moral than legal even if the legal aspect of it would have doomed him had he done the deed. On the other side, Adolin’s dilemma is more legal than moral as it was morally right to kill Sadeas, just horribly illegal.
As for the rest, well some subject do come in more often than others… I had noticed though most discussions always end up on the subject of either Kaladin or Adolin or both at the same time: our most active threads featuring one or the other.
@70 Gepeto
We may have different definitions of punishment. Roshone murdered an elderly couple, and Dalinar “punished” him by sending him off to basically be the mayor of a small town. It’s like if one of the President’s advisors used his position to kill his personal enemies, and they hushed it up by sending him off to run Mapleton, North Dakota, population 868. It’s definitely a step down for Roshone, but I don’t really think that “you’re a minor citylord now, go away” is an appropriate sentence for murder. If Moash’s grandparents had murdered Roshone, I wonder if they would have been sentenced to small-town exile?
@84 Gepeto
Sorry for the separate response, I didn’t see that you had another post.
I also think that laws such as “don’t kill” and “don’t steal” are necessary. The problem is that while Alethkar’s laws strictly prohibit darkeyes from killing or stealing, important lighteyes are under no such restrictions. Gavilar killed enough of his neighbors to steal himself a kingdom, and he’s viewed as a role model. Alethi society is functional only in the sense that it works very well in terms of keeping lighteyes in power, justifying their superior status, and allowing them to do what they want as long as they go through the proper motions.
The law that allows Roshone to send Tien off to do isn’t “incomplete” from a lighteyed perspective. It gives arbitrary power for a (lighteyed) authority to do as they please with sufficiently low-ranking darkeyes. Any improvement in the law would make it worse for the lighteyes, who are the only people with the power to change the law.
You say that Alethkar needs to re-think their laws, but who will be sitting down at the table to write new ones? Low-ranking peasants certainly won’t, and even skilled professionals like Kaladin’s father and Moash’s grandparents don’t get a say in what the law is. The same class of people who wrote the last set of laws will be the ones to make changes, and I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for them to suddenly prefer justice for darkeyes over power and impunity for themselves.
@85: And how can you decide the punishment given to Roshone was inadequate? Do not forget one thing: we haven’t heard his side of the story nor have we heard Elhokar’s. There always are two halves to the medal. I believe it would be best to garner all possible knowledge before deciding if the punishment was adequate or no. It would also be best if we knew exactly what is written into the Alethi law, then we could know if there was transgression. For my part, I am satisfied in knowing Dalinar agreed with the punishment. He is many things, but unfair isn’t one of them.
I personally would love to see Roshone’s viewpoint over the matter. Even criminals have viewpoints: before judging, we must hear it.
@86: Again we are missing too many elements to truly make ourselves the right picture. Lighteyes aren’t all privilege and those who are aren’t above the laws. They aren’t exactly doing as they want: they have to obey the rules and the conventions of their world. Which lighteye have we seen truly being above the law? Roshone? Roshone was sentenced and trialed for his crime: sending Tien to the army was not a crime according to the law. You can’t extract vengeance on someone just because he is a despicable human being: he has to have done something to warrant it and Tien, no matter how horrifying is not enough.
The lighteyes aren’t either “doing as they want with the darkeyes”: they are enforcing conscription, a law which has been used (and is still being used) in many countries during time of war. They need soldiers to fight on the borders: all town have to supply soldiers according to the needs. Amaram didn’t come forth just to exercise his higher authority on poor defenseless darkeyes: he came because he need to recruit more soldiers. It would also be good to remember a large chunk of those soldiers are lighteyes.
You also accuse the lighteyes to stand above the law because they are warring and by doing so you seem to accuse them of purposefully doing it just so they could kill darkeyes… There are as many lighteyes who die in those wars. Were they warranted? Probably not, but they didn’t start because of the lighteyes/darkeyes conflict, they started because this is how Alethi are. They do war. I also need to recall Kaladin himself wanted to go the wars. As for the war of unification, I will restrain my judgment until I read the next book: we do not exactly know the true story behind it. It could be both Gavilar and Dalinar truly are horrible human beings plunging their country into blood just so they could gain power or it could be warring was a better solution than not warring. We don’t know yet.
Changing the law to include a minimum age to be drafted does not impact the lighteyes in the slightest way. It isn’t as if we have seen army of children. They aren’t relying on recruiting children if anything the law would protect the lighteyes children more than the darkeyes as Amaram does point out many lighteyes children are being trained in the army as young as 8. I also need to recall such “incomplete” laws were common not too long ago in our own world. Children have only recently started being seen as “valuable”. A hundred years ago (or perhaps a bit more), 13 years old was considered old enough to be treated and trialed as an adult.
The laws won’t change in a fortnight, but they won’t also change by having Kaladin kill whoever individuals he deems unworthy of his authority. What will change then? By having Kaladin do his work better than any lighteyes, by having him train his men to be better than any lighteyed units, by setting the example, by raising the bar and by sponsoring promotion among the darkeyes as often as possible. When enough darkeyes rise to power, then your laws will become more “just”, but how children are viewed is completely independent of the eye conflict. This is basically how women gained gender equality: by proving themselves.
Besides, in the scope of a massive life extinction event such as the Desolation, I would think class distinction would quickly take lesser precedence over survival. They soon won’t afford to be picky.
noblehunter @47: It’s been a while since I’ve watched B5, but does Kosh ever actually say that? I remember Sheridan quoting it as a Vorlon saying, but I don’t remember Kosh using it.
@87 Gepeto
Actually, Dalinar very much disagreed with the punishment. He specifically states that Roshone got off light because of his high birth and family connections. Check the chapter where he talks about it, and you’ll see that he specifically mentions how Roshone’s sentence was particularly merciful.
I think we’re having two separate arguments here. I’m criticizing Alethi law for being unfair and biased towards lighteyes, and you’re justifying Roshone’s sentence based on Alethi law. If Roshone didn’t commit any crime under Alethi law, that would actually be worse than if he did, because it would mean that throwing elderly darkeyes in jail in perpetuity on the basis of no evidence is actually legal in Alethkar. When the law makes it possible for people to commit murder and get away with it, that’s not a defense of the murderers; it’s an indictment of the law.
I’ve never actually needed to hear Roshone’s viewpoint at all. Dalinar loves his nephew, and he’s quite open about what Elkohar did because of Roshone’s advice. His testimony is more damning than anything Moash can say against Roshone. And we can, with Tien, clearly see a pattern of Roshone using the law to dispose of his enemies, or in that case his enemy’s defenseless child. I can decide Roshone’s punishment is inadequate because he murdered people and the only consequence is that he was sent off to an unimportant administrative job. That seems fairly minor to me, especially for a society which is generally much keener on justice than mercy when it comes to the lower classes.
You say that lighteyes have to “obey the rules and conventions of their world”, but they get to write the rules. It’s the safe as if I decided that I was now God-Emperor of Mankind and was allowed to take whatever I wanted. I’m obeying my own rules, and my own rules naturally favor me. You keep insisting that Roshone was tried and sentenced, but he was tried and sentenced under laws written by lighteyes, interpreted by lighteyes, and enforced by lighteyes. Ask black people in the South how all-white juries worked, and you’ll get a good sense of what that kind of system is like.
The lighteyes want to fight their neighbors and take their land. Because they write the laws, they wrote a law that said that they can take other people’s children and have them fight in their wars. If the darkeyes decide they don’t want to fight, they can be enslaved for desertion. It’s exactly the same as if a bandit chieftain decided that he needed more bandits, so he went into a village and told farmers that they had to join his band. The only difference I can see is that the lighteyes have a set of books somewhere where they wrote that they can make darkeyed people fight in wars they didn’t choose, under leaders they didn’t elect, for reasons they don’t know anything about.
No, lighteyes don’t fight to kill darkeyes. They fight for land, power, and social position, and they support Vorinism because it puts them in a position of wealth and power. The Alethi mindset that you rightly denounce is a product of Vorinism, a belief system that is supported and enforced by the lighteyes, who are also the chief beneficiaries. It would be a lot easier for darkeyes to reject the Alethi glorification of war if they weren’t being raised to worship soldiers by the ardents, who work for the lighteyes. Also, darkeyes don’t glorify bandits or robbers who kill and steal from their neighbors, only the soldiers who kill and steal at the command of their brightlord. Violence is only justified when a lighteyes is leading it, and that lesson gets hammered in at every opportunity.
I won’t do any specific spoilers for the next book, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that Dalinar is definitely not fighting for a higher cause. Read the sample Dalinar chapter for The Highprince of War if you want the details.
Your solution for Kaladin appears to involve working within the system to change the system. At the same time, though, you argue that the system really isn’t that bad. After all, Roshone got a trial before his fellow lighteyes, with no darkeyes invited to judge him or even to provide testimony. Kaladin shouldn’t even be angry over his brother’s death, since Roshone didn’t break any laws when he sent his enemy’s child off to die to settle a personal grudge. Time and time again, right and wrong are subordinated to laws that only one group gets to write, and your advice is for Kaladin to be a good soldier and obey the rules that the lighteyes make for him in the hopes that eventually they might change things out of the goodness of their hearts.
America didn’t become independent from Britain by submitting the proper paperwork, and we didn’t abolish slavery by saying pretty please with a cherry on top to the slave owners. There was a significant amount of arson and murder involved in both events, but it was all legal because we won. If we’d lost, George Washington would be a traitor, and Abraham Lincoln would be a thief who tried to take the legal property of those fine upstanding Southern gentlemen. Once we realize that the winners are the ones who get to decide what’s legal, we can stop worrying about legal restrictions and start concerning ourselves with what’s right. Eleven days after we celebrated the birthday of one of America’s most famous and persistent criminals, it’s probably time to accept that an “unjust law is no law at all”.
Gepeto, I can’t locate all your positions, much less remember them. You also change positions (you’re entitled, of course). Let me cite one of your emphatic comments and judgments followed by a later one which appears to contradict it.
@55 Gepeto: “As for Hoid, I despise him. I see him as an individual willing to sacrifice innocent life to achieve his personal goals which may include safekeeping part of humanity, but is also heavily tainted into self-service.”
@87 Gepeto: “I personally would love to see Roshone’s viewpoint over the matter. Even criminals have viewpoints: before judging, we must hear it.”
Why give more latitude to a greedy, vindictive character like Roshone than to a supportive character like Hoid? I have no current interest in Roshone’s point of view and assume that he did not survive the Everstorm/Voidbringer Parshmen (we’ll see). Hoid, on the other hand, appears to be vital to the Cosmere aspect of the Stormlight Archive books. As to sacrificing the lives of individuals to meet some ‘higher’ goal, that is far more common in life and literature than you appear to accept. What is war if not the sacrifice of individuals for some allegedly greater purpose. The purpose need not be as morally justifiable as, say, entering the war against Hitler’s forces. The War of Vengeance that the Alethi were conducting against the Parshendi had degenerated into skirmishes to gain some material objects at the cost of many lives.
@76 Gepeto: May I ask how Hoid backstabbed Adolin? I can’t recall a time when he genuinely broke Adolin’s trust and wasn’t just teasing him like he does everybody.
@77 STBLST: Basically, I’m trying to say that I am unsure of Hoid’s ultimate goals and do not fully trust him. I don’t think he’s selfish, dishonorable, evil, or anything like that – I’m just not sure that everything he’s trying to do is good. My key reasons for believing this are as follows:
-What he says to Dalinar about letting Roshar be destroyed. I definitely don’t think this is a sign of callousness, for the reasons you pointed out. It just means that he apparently has a goal so important to him that he’d be willing to sacrifice an entire planet to accomplish it. That makes me wonder if his priorities are really sound. There are very few things that would be important enough to be worth destroying Roshar to accomplish them, which makes it statistically more likely that Hoid is not using ethical means appropriate to his goals. It is, indeed, still possible that Hoid is pursuing a worthy goal and using appropriate, moral means – but this makes it less likely. Again, I’m suspicious of his goals; I’m not concluding yet that they’re bad.
-The fact that known good characters (Demoux, Galladon, and Baon) are trying to catch him for some reason. As others have pointed out, they could be trying to stop him, or enlist his help, or find out what he’s doing, or any number of things. But the fact remains that these people are trying to find him and he doesn’t want to be found (seeing as he left a false trail). That’s suspicious. Could be an innocent disagreement, but there’s a good chance it’s not. Also note the WoB that the Seventeeth Shard is “very worried about what he’s going to be doing. […] they have a task, they have goals, and they are worried that he is going to be at cross purposes to them, so they are trying to hunt him down.” (Theoryland is broken so I can’t link this right now.)
-Frost, the recipient of the letter who is aligned with these known good characters, thinks that Hoid tows chaos behind him and has wrought much destruction in the past. Hoid, however, refuses to stop doing whatever is causing trouble and swear that oath of nonintervention that Frost wants him to. It could be that the chaos and destruction are just unfortunate consequences of Hoid pursuing a good goal, but again, this makes me wonder if his goal is really worth all the collateral damage he knows it’s causing.
-Hoid has several grudges against Shardholders that he openly admits to pursuing. He says that this isn’t the only reason he’s opposing Odium, but it does indicate that he has mixed motives in whatever he’s doing, and he knows it. Also, it should be noted that we don’t know why Hoid dislikes Bavadin. Rayse, Hoid says, is a nasty and dangerous person, but we haven’t heard any explanations for why Bavadin is worth opposing. There could be a reasonable explanation – we just haven’t heard one, so we can’t be sure.
-Hoid also makes a few comments like saying to Sadeas “You going to do Alethkar a favor and rid it of us both?” and to Dalinar “I fear my simple hands have been digging in the muck far too often to suit one such as you.” He could just be making idle jokes, or there could be a deeper meaning behind these remarks. Given Hoid’s chronic tendency to drop hints about himself, I would tend to believe the latter.
-Hoid has quite a lot of magical powers and related significant objects at this point. He’s got Allomantic, Feruchemical, and Lightweaving-related powers, he probably has a fair amount of Breath, and he has the Moon Scepter which could let him use Selish magic. He has significant healing powers (which make him immune to Shardblades if his comments to Jasnah are true), he can manipulate time to some extent, and he has lived much longer than a normal human being. Oh, and he knows a lot of valuable stuff about the Cosmere, e.g. how to worldhop using shardpools and get places using the Cognitive Realm. More than that, he has specifically sought out much of that power. I don’t think there’s anything innately wrong about having so much power or trying to gain it; it would certainly be useful in stopping Odium and doing other helpful stuff. But I am inclined to be cautious about trusting somebody with so much power, given the tremendous temptations to misuse it and how dangerous that misuse could be. Especially since I know that Hoid has enemies like Rayse and Bavadin that he openly admits he’s pursuing a grudge against.
So these are my main conclusions:
-Hoid has some goal(s) he finds very important, and which we aren’t really sure of. Could be stopping Odium, could be something else. However, we know he already has somewhat mixed motives in pursuing it.
-He’s willing to go to great lengths to pursue this goal, including traipsing all over the Cosmere collecting magical powers. He also says he’d be willing to see Roshar burn in order to accomplish it.
-There are some indications that he’s caused problems in the past as he pursues that goal. Frost says so, characters we know from the 17th Shard seem to think so, and Hoid himself makes comments that may imply this is the case.
I don’t know what Hoid’s grand purpose is yet, so I can’t fully judge his behavior at this point. But I think there’s a good chance that his goal does not merit the consequences that he’s willing to have his means cause. Thus, I remain a bit suspicious of him for now, and will stay that way until I’m more assured that his goals and his means for achieving them are honorable. YMMV depending on how serious you think the damage he’s caused is, and on how likely you think it is that his goals are worth that damage.
By the way, I should clarify that regardless of any suspicion, I really love Hoid as a character. He is both interesting and thoroughly entertaining. Even if he turns out to have sinister goals, I would still enjoy reading him. (But I do hope he doesn’t have sinister goals. I’d like for him to be a good guy, at least for the most part.)
On another note – I would argue that even if I can’t judge characters in fiction based on their body language and intonation, I can judge them from the particular way the author chooses to portray them. In a novel, a writer can’t include the same kind of visual information we get in real life, but they have another tool in what particular words, situations, descriptions, &c they use for a character. This is as much part of literary communication as body language is part of visual communication. Given that, I would argue that Brandon Sanderson is portraying Hoid as suspicious by having him pop up and then disappear for no apparent reason, use unknown magic, say cryptic things, hide his true goals even when we’re in his head in a Wit POV, and so on. Since this is how the author is presenting the character, I think I have a decent reason to believe he is that way. I believe many people would disagree with me on this point, though, and ultimately it’s pretty tangential to my argument.
ETA: Uh, wow, that wound up being really long. Sorry if you didn’t want all that dumped on you.
sheesania @91 – Congratulations on a very well-said, cogent wall of text!! Couldn’t have done it better. Thanks!
(There’s one more thing I really want to add, but I need to wait until people are finished with TBoM and M:SH before we can discuss it here.)
@92 Hey! We’re on the side of the fence now! Am I allowed to evil laugh?
I’m inclined to think Hoid’s goals are good-ish in the context of the scale he’s dealing with. Roshar is small potatoes assuming a the view point encompasses many such worlds. It’s destruction is bad and worth attempting to prevent but not worth losing the game over.
But I also let the narrative lead me around by the nose and Hoid’s clearly a Gandalf character and is usually helpful and friendly. So Hoid’s a good guy because that’s what the book wants me to think. Listening to the book has never led me astray [/sarcasm].
Thanks Wetlander and sheesania @21 and @22 for the help. The WoB about Hoid’s motives for questioning Dalinar was perfect.
I skimmed much of the thread, and really enjoyed sheesania’s summary @91. I have insight about one aspect of his power collecting. I was at the BoM signing (though due to lack of time, I’m not even done rereading the prerelease chapters), and I also had Brandon sign Emperor’s Soul. I asked him if we had seen Hoid use the Moon Scepter and in what book. He didn’t answer if we had seen it used (I infer no), but he wrote “The Moon Scepter is more of a key than something with power itself.” So it sounds like Hoid doesn’t yet have access to Selish magic (the new excerpt at the end of Elantris 10th anniversary edition adds to that opinion), but it opens up a whole new question: “Key to what??!” Adolnasium’s power stash like Ruin’s in Mistborn 2?
So I definitely like and distrust Hoid at the same time. And that makes Hoid an awesome character! Especially in the role of mysterious wildcard that he’s playing, I want someone suspicious to add suspense and interest.
@@@@@ 94. There was another WoB that said the Moon Scepter was like a Rosetta Stone for Dor-compatible symbols; with it one could, presumably, draw Aons that work in Svorden, or carve soulstamps that work in Elantris. However, that doesn’t allow one to detach the Selish magic systems from Sel, as one can with Breath or with the Metallic Arts.
To many – From what I’m reading here, I am beginning to see Hoid and his ilk (Worldhoppers) equivalent to the Side Quests in the Final Fantasy video games. They have some effect on the overall storyline (In final fantasy it could mean cool weapons or cool healing powers) but don’t really affect how the major characters will react.
Just my thoughts. But I will keep my mind open until I finish Bands of Mourning.
@95 Here’s the WoB you’re referring to:
There was also this, from his recent Reddit /r/fantasy AMA:
So it presumably makes it easier to detach Selish magic from Sel.
@97 sheesania
Or maybe it can be used to figure out how to bring a little piece of Sel with you when traveling off world similar to Ogier Steddings in WoT?
First, I hope there is a new post today. Sanderson’s worlds are so vast, that it’s hard to keep up with him sometimes. Yet the release of one book shouldn’t interfere with the re-read of another. But Alice, I understand if you’ve been busy. :-D
Second: Roshone & murder
What Roshone did in both cases was not morally right. The guy has no morals. He’s a selfish snake.
But he is not a “murder” by modern legal standards. Many are throwing that around, but it’s not a charge that could stick. Wish I could find the post where the commenter outlined the various degrees of murder charges, but we all know how hard it is to see the comment threads on Tor currently.
Imprisonment caused the grandparents to sicken and die. Roshone caused the imprisonment. But no legal system I know of would say he murdered them.
Now if my grandparents were caused a similar harm – I would sure blame the guy who accused them. But I could not get the legal system to agree with me.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 99 – Thanks. Great explanation on the Roshone case. :-)
And yes, there will be a new post today. I can only hope it’s more or less coherent…
@89: I had written a very very lengthy post yesterday to reply to this, but lacking the proper time to edit it, it remained on my computer. The conversation has now shifted, but I will post it nonetheless. Some of it does echo Braid Tug’s later post on calling Roshone a “murderer”.
****
I do believe not being willing to hear out Roshone viewpoint on the matter completely disqualifies you from judging him. While it is probable his version of the events won’t change our perceptions, you can’t be able to pass judgment if you just want to hear the viewpoint which suits you. His story may surprise us or not, but you don’t judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. We have no idea what is going on into his mind, what drove him to behave as he did. You can’t unilaterally decide it isn’t worth to hear because Kaladin doesn’t want to hear it.
Imagine a judge of law who would say to the condemned: “I do not need to hear you out, this other guy convinced me.”.
We must also remember why it is Roshone got a lighter sentence than he should have: Elhokar pleaded for leniency. Dalinar agreed. He agreed his crimes would have demanded a harsher punishment, but he received leniency and I wish to know why Elhokar pleaded for it in the first place. Was it a first offense? Which circumstances surrounded the event? I also disagree with calling Roshone a “murderer”. He did not kill those people: he neglected them to the point where they die. In prison. Likely because they were old. Prisoners shouldn’t die, so who’s fault was it truly? Roshone who put it there of the goaler who let them die? Did Roshone intended them to die?
Roshone didn’t plunge a knife into them: it is an entirely different affair. I believe modern law would rate both crimes quite differently: being guilty false accusations and perjury isn’t the same as guilty with first degree murder. It is not even close. Roshone is guilty of sending them into prison: the prison administration is guilty of letting them die.
Threfore long as we are missing important pieces of the puzzle, any judgement on the affair is severely biased.
You also seem to have decided all lighteyes were pieces of scum and darkeyes are martyrs.
While there are obvious inequities, we do not know enough about their society to draw a clear picture. The ONLY viewpoints we have on the matter are Kaladin and Moash: both angry young men who understandably focus on the bad side of things. We have to avoid taking a few negative examples and decide they are representative for the overall populace. We can’t draw large scale conclusions over a tiny sample of individuals whom weren’t even given the luxury to explain themselves. Even the worst of criminals have the right to voice their defense. Sadeas did and I find him guilty, but I am lacking the same to properly judge Roshone and Amaram. And no Kaladin’s views on the matter and Tien’s death aren’t sufficient.
We also aren’t given the notion as to how frequent it is for 13 years old teenagers to be sent to war. Kaladin stated Tien has been made part of a unit of very young and fresh recruits: Tien may not have been an exception, but something common enough they made a unit out of such kids. A morally debatable normality, but we can’t judge their world based on our own modern day criteria. It wasn’t long ago children younger than Tien were sent to work in mines or factories: it was considered normal and I bet when they instated a minimum age for work, there were people whom opposed themselves and not just dirty bosses, regular people.
I am not excusing the behavior, I am simply trying to state what seems horrifying to us maybe isn’t so to them and while we all agree children shouldn’t be sent to war, it is quite possible, in their world, they are.
So yes it was morally wrong and downright despicable to achieve vengeance against a foe by sending his young son to war, but honestly Tien was doomed from the beginning. He shouldn’t have been drafted at 13, but the next time the recruitment would have passed, he would have been older. He would have been drafted anyway at a young age (as I do not consider 15 has being much older): he was the carpenter’s third apprentice. They had no need for him in Heartstone, so I personally do put some of the blame on Lirin. He should have moved to another town such to allow his youngest son a chance at life.
As for the Alethi ways of life, I would point out it affects everyone, not just the darkeyes. In fact, I’d argue it affects the lighteyes in a greater measure than the darkeyes. The former do not have much choice: they have to become soldiers, the later actually have other options opened to them such as farming, surgery. Conscription also isn’t unilaterally enforced as you seem to suggest, only a few individuals every few years are drafted. If you farm the land, you likely are safe as the country needs farmers. I also need to recall Kaladin chose to become a soldier: nobody forced him. Even better, after having seen war, after having been freed by Dalinar, he still choose to remain a soldier. Kaladin is many things, but I disagree he is nothing more than a victim: he did have enough agency to make certain choices. He could have chosen to remain in Heartstone and pursue his training. He could have chosen to take his bag of spheres and be gone. He could have chosen to ask to finish his training as a surgeon. He could have. He didn’t. If you look at it from another perspective, Kaladin has had more choices open to him than say Adolin.
I would also advice caution is reading too much into the Dalinar excerpt. We don’t know why he is fighting and the fact he didn’t bother to figure it out does not mean there wasn’t a good reason. I prefer to give people the benefice of doubt before crucifying them.
Being a non-American resident, the “United-States claimed their independance” argument bears little weigth with me. I would argue other countries achieved just the same without having to resolve into shedding the blood of their own people (look up North). I would also argue the “take up the arms” path has caused a great deal of harm: look-up the French revolution for instance. You can’t prone equality when you slay people for no other reason they were born into aristocracy. The path I suggested may take longer, but it doesn’t require a blood bath. Revolutions do not need to be covered in blood nor do I believe you fight war with war and injustice by creating new injustices.
As for Kaladin, I do believe he does need to take his hole and realize he may not be the best placed individual to decide of the faith of the world as he lacks too much knowledge to do so. Humility never hurt anyone and often does a great deal of good.
@90: My bad. I realize my position is not clear. I do have to give Hoid the same treatment I wish for Roshone in order to be consistent with myself, but within the scope of the story, he is a character I genuinely despise. As strange as it may sound, I prefer Roshone to Hoid (as characters) as Roshone, at least, forms a villain I can enjoy hating and yes I would like to hear what is going on in his head. On the other hand, Hoid is a character I feel I am forced to like due to his connection the Cosmere, but I just don’t, hence my strong negative reaction to him.
My personal feelings on him may be clouding my judgment.
@91: Hoid told Kaladin to flirt with Shallan even though he noticed Adolin was actually enamoured with her. It was uncalled for and completely free. He had no reasons to do so. Roshone actually had reasons to fuel his hatred at Lirin (despicable ones, but I can actually understand why the man would want to extract vengeance at Lirin), Hoid has none towards Adolin. He just doesn’t care if he gets hurt as long as mighty Kaladin learns his lesson.
Perhaps the story will prove me wrong about Hoid, but so far he is one of the characters I enjoy the least.
@91 sheesania, I agree with Alice that your post was well written and almost convincing. I need to read more about Hoid’s non-SA activities. In the meantime, I second @93 noblehunters approach which is to let Sanderson’s magnum opus, the Stormlight Archives, form our primary evaluation of Hoid’s character. The analogy to Tolkien’s Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings trilogy is apt. Both Gandalf and Hoid come from another world with a mission to counter the source of the evil on the planet (Middle Earth and Roshar). Both have non-human powers and super-human knowledge, and both deliberately convey a mystery. I remember an appropriate line from the Two Towers film where Aragorn and friends have just found the resurrected Gandalf (now self-styled ‘the White’). Aragorn says, “In one thing you have not changed, my friend. You still speak in riddles.”
@103 Don’t forget Hoid is a character in conversation with Gandalf, and Allanon for that matter. Whatever Hoid’s goals and ends are, I doubt they are completely pure. Sanderson can’t be trusted with standard Epic Fantasy tropes any more than Martin can.
Gepeto – I’ve been intrigued reading the back-and-forth between you and others regarding the whole “Elhokar/Roshone/Dalinar/Kaladin/Moash’s-grandparents” affair and I think the various parties are making some interesting points. But I have to challenge you on what may be considered as slightly revisionist behavior when you brought up the Dalinar excerpt in your counterargument@102.
You stated “I would also advice caution is reading too much into the Dalinar excerpt. We don’t know why he is fighting and the fact he didn’t bother to figure it out does not mean there wasn’t a good reason. I prefer to give people the benefice of doubt before crucifying them. “
This is rather contradictory to your comments made in response to that very same excerpt.
-Your comment@11 calls him awful.
-Comment @24 claimed “Not only was he glad he got to kill those people, he revealed in it, bath in its glory while not even knowing who they were or why he had to kill them…”
-Comment @30 stated the problem with Dalinar was his attitude; that he demanded bloodshed and wanted to slaughter others because he yearned to feel destructive power; he didn’t bother to find out why or who he’s fighting; he laughed at those who dared cry for their mother as they died; he was a horrible person and most of his actions can’t be excused by the fact they were at war; that rounding up the women and children were among the most despicable war tactics to be used
-Comment @33 labels Dalinar as a “blood crazed often drunk maniac for the most part of his life;” then you speculate on his relationship with his wife and kids, his brother etc.
-Comment @36 you condemn Dalinar (and the Kholins) for attacking their neighbors/countrymen and trying to expand their land. You claim he is not a good person; that he was a monster, but yet a lucky monster to end up on the winning side.
And there are several other comments you submit made about Dalinar that could be perceived as less than charitable, based on the limited excerpt.
Multiple posters disagreed with your claims and cited textual evidence (or lack thereof) behind their stances (including when I called out the gross embellishments and exaggerations of you and other posters who were coming down hard on Dalinar based upon limited textual evidence with my comment @62) and to your credit you did ultimately recant some of them, but to state you “prefer to give people (and specifically Dalinar, who you mention in the previous sentence) the benefice (benefit) of the doubt before crucifying them” is not supported by your comments in that excerpt.
I have to agree with STBLST@90 that it may appear as though you are changing positions (I also agree that if that is what you are doing, then you are definitely entitled to do so, if you wish) to suit your stance, this time in relation to Dalinar.
@105: This is because in between the moment where I wrote those posts and now: I indeed changed my mind. Other people brought in arguments which made me reflect on my initial position. In the end, I switch my gun to the other shoulder as I felt my own argumentation was lesser and theirs was better.
Only fools never change their minds and retain their initial position when faced with decent counter-arguments. Being argumentative, appearing stubborn about a point does not prevent one from hearing out what others have to say.
The purpose of discussion is to weight in our perceptions with others and to listen. If others bring forth arguments which contradict mines and if, after a given period of time, I do come to the conclusion they are probably right and I am probably wrong, then so be it. I will jump onto the other side of the fence and defend it as avidly as I was defending my initial position.
If everybody got it right the first time around, we’d all be genius. As I said multiple times, I may be passionate, I may be blunt, I may be stubborn, I may not give much leeway into discussions, but I have no qualms at being proven wrong. I believe I was wrong in my initial reaction to the Dalinar’s excerpt and I did jump too hastily to drastic conclusions. I warned another poster to not do the same as I do think I made a mistake by doing so.
So yes, I do change my position, quite frequently actually. I lost track of how many arguments did indeed convinced me. You may get a sense of it, if they ever come back.
STBSLT argues about my position on Hoid which I explained by stating he was right: I should give him the same treatment I gave Roshone, but I find it harder because he unnerves me. I thus have to walk onto a powerful emotion in order to rationalized my thoughts on Hoid which is a lot easier said than done.
@92, @94, @103: *big grin* I’m glad you enjoyed my wall of text!
@93 noblehunter: I’m also inclined to think that Hoid’s goals will wind up being good, but that I’ll still feel slightly uncomfortable about his means. I don’t think I’ll finish the Cosmere and conclude that Hoid is evil, but I doubt I’ll finish it and believe that he’s purely good and noble either. These are just my feelings, however, given what he’s like so far and what I know of how Sanderson writes.
As for letting the book lead me by the nose – ha! I actually do this sometimes. I know something is fishy, but I’d prefer the fun of the reveal over the fun of figuring it out, so I decide to be dumb and just follow along for the time being. This is sometimes part of why I’m concerned about how the author tries to present the character (as I rambled about in my last paragraph). I want to believe what the author wants me to, so I can be surprised like the author wants me to. With Sanderson, though, I can generally be as clever as I want and I’ll still have the fun of the reveal.
@96 sheiglagh: Yeah, at this point this is how Brandon Sanderson wants to write Hoid and other very-Cosmere-significant characters. They pop up, they do interesting stuff, they occasionally have some effect on the plot, but they’re not vital yet. Later on he’ll start the major crossovers. (IIRC he said Hoid would be a main POV character in the third Mistborn trilogy. Now there’s a reason to break out the cadmium.)
@102 Gepeto: Thanks for clarifying. To me, it seemed like that comment was just a joke – he didn’t seriously expect Kaladin to take his advice and start flirting with Shallan to Adolin’s detriment. Honestly, I wondered if there was something more in how he said “Try not to flirt with the girl. […] Or…what am I saying? Flirt with the girl, Kaladin.” Does he actually have a reason to want Shallan and Kaladin together, or am I just reading too much into it?
@107: My understanding was Hoid said it in an attempt to help Kaladin move away from his lighteyed prejudice. While I understand the gesture, I disapprove of the means used. It also emphasis just how little he cares about Adolin and how much he cares about Kaladin. The whole scene just serves as a nasty reminder of how unimportant Adolin truly is.
@102 Gepeto
Roshone received leniency because he is a powerful lighteyes. Full stop. Dalinar does not mention any extenuating circumstances. There is, in fact, no evidence at all to support any view other than Roshone, a powerful lighteyes, being let off easy for the death of two old darkeyes. Dalinar’s testimony supports this view, so it’s not just Moash’s anger talking.
When Roshone sent Tien off to die, he gloated about it. He openly and directly told Lirin that he was choosing his son as an act of personal revenge because Lirin prevented him from getting the old citylord’s spheres. We don’t need to interrogate Roshone to learn his perspective, because he already told us. Without any kind of coercion or pressure, he told an entire village that the cost of Lirin defying him would be the death of Lirin’s entirely innocent son. There’s no hidden secret, no extenuating circumstances, just a powerful man executing petty revenge by murdering a child.
And yes, it is murder. It’s even worse than if Roshone used a knife, because there would be a horrible kind of honesty in that. He’s taking society’s rules and using them to kill his victims just as surely as if he killed them with his own hands, and he’s proclaiming that’s he innocent of any crime because the law is on his side.
Time and time again, you’ve argued for a double standard. Kaladin killing Elkohar is horrible and evil, but Elkohar is an adult man and a king. Tien is a child, but it’s perfectly okay for Roshone to send him off to die because the law says so. Society makes lots of things legal throughout history, Gepeto. Torture, slavery, women being livestock owned by their male relatives. Are you okay with those, too?
Even though you keep saying that you’re not trying to excuse the behavior of Alethi lighteyes, that’s what you spend all your time doing. Child soldiers? Alethi sociey just doesn’t value children that much. Slavery? The slaves must have done something wrong, like having debts they can’t pay or offending someone powerful. Dalinar killed soldiers and took their families hostage in a war when he didn’t even know why he was fighting. You say that there may have been a good reason, but Dalinar explicitly states that he didn’t care enough to pay attention. Time and time again, you insist that we can’t rush to judgement and that we have to take all the circumstances into account.
Except when we’re talking about the people who aren’t in charge. You blame Lirin for his child being picked, when you rightly point out that only a few of the villagers were drafted. Was it his fault for assuming that Roshone wouldn’t be evil enough to choose a young child as a way of getting revenge? You say Kaladin “chose” to be a soldier, when he volunteered to keep his brother alive after Tien was drafted. Though you accuse me of making all lighteyes evil and all darkeyes martyrs, you’re the one who chooses to defend Roshone’s actions. There are plenty of lighteyes who take care of horses, serve as clerks, and go through their lives without confronting the evil of the system they live in, but also without exploiting it to throw old people in jail or murder children. I am not to blame for your decision to defend an evil lighteyes who keeps displaying the evils of the Vorin system by using it to murder darkeyes.
I would find your arguments against war and bloodshed more convincing if you applied them evenly. A Quaker would say that we are all brothers and sisters, and that we return good for evil, as Christ did. There are many other variations on pacifism, both religious and non-religious, and all of them share a similar regard for human life and hatred for the evil of murder. You, however, defend Dalinar for going out and slaughtering people without knowing why. You defend Sadeas for stringing Kaladin up before a hurricane. You argue that there’s nothing legally wrong with sending people to jail, or with drafting people for a war. Bloodshed is perfectly okay with you, as long as it has the official stamp of approval from the authorities.
Fight for land. Fight for power. Fight, as Dalinar does, for the joy of winning, without caring who you fight. But don’t ever dare to fight against injustice or for freedom. Those causes just aren’t worth dying or killing for, unlike the issue of whether Brightlord A or Brightlord B owns a particular field. Oceans of blood can be spilled so Gavilar can have a kingdom, or so Dalinar can enjoy the Thrill. Just don’t ask us to sacrifice a single drop for a better world.
As to your criticism of Hoid:
You seek extenuating circumstances for Roshone murdering Tien and Moash’s grandparents, but not Wit irritating Adolin. It’s worth noting that while Adolin is not actually jealous of Kaladin, and Shallan is not romantically interested in Kaladin, so there’s no actual harm in Hoid’s advice. Whatever he’s done, for good or evil, I don’t think annoying Adolin is going to weigh on his conscience in the dark hours of the night.
@107 I find accepting the narrative gets me the experience the author intended. But I also enjoy reading criticism from less co-operative readers. I think they tend to be better at cutting through the spin of an unreliable (or self-deceptive) narrator. Sanderson likes to challenge his own narratives, like Kelsier for example. It helps that he’s willing for his characters to be totally and completely wrong about things.
dptullos @109 – Chill out. Stick to the argument and leave out the ad hominem.
FWIW, I can’t honestly say that Moash’s grandparents were murdered, per se, though of course it feels that way to Moash. You could probably charge Elhokar with gross negligence manslaughter, since he failed to arrange their inquest in a timely manner and left them in a dungeon they weren’t strong enough to survive. However, there’s no textual indication that Roshone expected or hoped that Moash’s grandparents would die in prison; we can only infer that based on our own opinions. Personally, I can’t see him thinking that far ahead, given what little we know of the situation.. He merely wanted them removed from competition on some trumped-up charge.
Likewise with Roshone vis-a-vis Tien. He wanted to send Tien off with the recruiters as revenge on Lirin, but that’s not murder. It’s certain that Roshone hoped Tien would die, and quite probable he fully expected that outcome, but from the moment they left Roshone’s direct influence, Tien’s fate rested on the decisions of others. There was a non-zero possibility that he’d be back in two years (plus travel time) safe and sound. In fact, Tien (though no thanks to Roshone) was supposed to be in a messenger corp where he would not be in the line of fighting, and the text seems clear that this often happened with younger boys who were drafted/volunteered. Roshone’s primary vengeance on Lirin was depriving him of a loved son by sending him where there was a chance he would die, and in a situation where Lirin would have to spend months and probably years not knowing if his son was alive or dead.
Does this make Roshone any less of a complete rat bastard? No. Of course not. He’s completely unethical, and he doesn’t care whether people were deprived of their livelihoods or their lives as long as he got what he wanted. He was probably quite pleased any time they actually died, but in the incidents we’ve seen, I don’t see any court convicting him of murder. I’m not sure (even setting aside the Alethi legal system, and using our own) they would even go after him for manslaughter, though the lawyers here could help out on that. Fraud and abuse of authority is about the extent of what could be proved. Is he morally responsible for the deaths? I think so, but I can’t honestly see any way he can be accused of murder.
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@several re: Hoid, Adolin, and telling Kaladin to flirt with Shallan… I’ve never seen that as any kind of attack on Adolin. For starters, I think Hoid knew perfectly well that Kaladin wouldn’t flirt with Shallan anyway. In any case, all Hoid said was “it might make his eyes bulge.” I doubt that Adolin has ever had anyone actually try to steal his girl, and Hoid thinks it would be funny to see his reaction. If you look at it, Adolin’s relationships all end because he does something to offend the girl, not because he loses her to any competition. There may also be a social expectation that when a couple is officially courting, everyone else has to be hands-off. As near as I can tell, the whole thing was merely Hoid doing what Hoid does – yanking someone’s chain to get a rise out of them. (If anything, it could be construed as an attack on Kaladin: if he tried flirting with Shallan, especially at this point, it would most likely result in him looking stupid, rather than producing any actual threat to the Adolin/Shallan ship.)
@106 We agree; it is somewhat foolish to stick to a stand when one’s core argument has been whittled away by counterarguments using evidence and examples, as well as those that point out one’s errors and contradictions.
Listening to what others have said (or written, in the case of online discussion) is also an important aspect of a good discussion, and it is probably a good idea to distinguish between what others actually said, versus what one thinks one has heard/wants to hear (I’m constantly working on this one, myself; getting better but still have a ways to go).
Changing one’s mind/position over a period of time when supplied with additional information is encouraged (or should be, by most fair-minded folk); but it doesn’t negate what appeared to be a contradiction in stance as illustrated by post @102. You stated: “I prefer to give people (or Dalinar, as he was referenced earlier in your comment) the benefice (sp) of doubt before crucifying them.” Your previous comments (about the Dalinar excerpt that you specifically urged others to approach with caution) strongly contradicted that. If you’ve changed your mind in the interim, then great. However, your comment @102 of giving people the benefit of the doubt could definitely be interpreted as a core belief you have held consistently over time; not one that is a result of a radical, 180-degree change in perspective from about 2-3 months ago (I would also suggest that if this is a universal stance/belief you now hold, maybe try applying that to Hoid, in contrast to your comment about Hoid @108). That may not have been your intention, but that is definitely a way in which it could be read to some of us who are indeed listening to what you are saying here.
I personally think you (as well as many other of the consistent commenters here) add a lot to all of these discussions; and I enjoy some of the deep conversations you all have, as well as the diversity of thought and perception and belief. However, I also think the discussion is aided by calling out inconsistencies or contradictions, as well as acknowledging good points and solid counterarguments.
ETA: *sigh* I really should refresh and read before posting. I did not intend to give the appearance I am attempting to pile on, re: Hoid, so my apologies if that is how it is perceived.
@111 Wetlandernew
No ad hominem involved. I’m asking whether Gepeto approves of different bad things not because I think he does, but because I know he doesn’t. The best way of undermining legalism is pointing out what’s been legal throughout history, and the best way of undermining arguments against bloody revolutions is pointing out just how much blood gets shed by the societies those revolutions are trying to change. It’s not about accusing people of moral depravity, just about showing them the consequences of their beliefs.
In regard to the “not murder” argument:
No, Roshone doesn’t know whether the people he sends to jail or war will actually die. He might hope that they die, but that’s not actually a crime, and insufferable gloating doesn’t automatically mean he’s committing first-degree murder. The main problem with the Alethi system is not that it requires substantial and indisputable evidence to convict someone of murder; that’s actually a good thing. It’s that it allows Roshone to carry out a second “not murder”, and then keep his office as citylord even after he publicly does a happy dance about punishing Lirin by drafting his son.
Sometimes people manage to manipulate the letter of the law so that they can’t be legally convicted for their crimes. This happens in all systems, not just the Alethi one, and it’s unavoidable unless the system gives arbitrary power to judges, which creates its own set of dangers. However, just because you can’t be sent to jail doesn’t mean you get to keep a job where you can do more “not murders”. Kaladin is quite right to blame the Alethi system for “solving” the problem of Roshone by dumping him on the people of a small town. They wanted him gone, and they didn’t stop and think through the consequences of sending a bitter petty tyrant with a talent for legally disposing of his enemies to run a small town. After all, they weren’t the ones who would have to deal with Roshone, and the people who did weren’t in a position to say anything.
No matter how much abuse of authority Roshone commits, he gets to keep his job because the people he goes after aren’t that important. Everyone in town knows that he chose Tien for revenge, but they can’t do anything about it, and the people who could do something about it either don’t know or don’t care. It’s not just about Kaladin feeling cheated of justice because Roshone wasn’t executed. It’s about the fact that Roshone stays in charge, no matter how badly he (legally) hurts the people he has power over.
Alethi society gives lighteyes arbitrary power over darkeyes, and it doesn’t exactly rush to remove them when they abuse that power. When a system deprives people of any power over their own government, and any meaningful form of protest against their society’s abuses, the people who run the state don’t get to complain that their subjects consider violence a legitimate option when they’ve taken away every other avenue for change.
@109: I have no desire to pursue this conversation as I strongly dislike the tone of this post. It felt like an attack on my person and while I agree trying to present an unpopular viewpoint is bound to raise passion, I would have hope the tone would have remained more pleasing. Pretending I may endorse child soldiers or women abuse simply because I tried to explain Roshone’s decision to send a 13 years old teenager to war may not be as horrifying to the average Alethi as it is to us is frankly crossing a line which should never be crossed.
No hard feelings on my part, but I will not continue exchanging on this matter unless the tone goes back to being civil.
@111: Great post. I do agree with all of it.
As for Hoid, it isn’t it felt like an attack and I do agree it wasn’t one… It is just the whole scene highlighted the fact Hoid doesn’t give a care about Adolin. Hoid is perfectly aware of Adolin’s track record so you would think he would be more inclined to actually encourage him now he seems to be into a relationship looking like it may work, for once, but no. Hoid has no interest in Adolin, hence whatever results his mere comments may end up having doesn’t bother him. All he wants is Kaladin to realize he is being too set on eye color, which is understandable, but he doesn’t care which way he passes to make his point known.
In other words, Hoid has no interest to preserve the burgeoning relationship between Shallan and Adolin. I can understand his interests are elsewhere, but as I say this scene is a painful one for an Adolin’s fan. It just reminds us of the sad truth.
@112: I do avoid not stubbornly holding on to an opinion simply to avoid contradicting previous posts I may have made. Strongly believing we should always look onto both side the medal before making up our minds does not prevent me from being guilty of doing the opposite. Alas, I am just a human being.
Also, not everything I post is the result of deep thinking, many posts are spontaneous reactions to what I have just read. I do tend to think as I speak and not the other way around. I tend to babbled out my thoughts rather spontaneously, see how they are received, read the discussion, think some more and make up my mind.
And my mind can change as I sometimes miss the required perspective to endorse a viewpoint. If I can’t find the right angle, then I can’t change my mind.
I apologize if it makes me sound contradictory. It is quite possible I have contradicted myself on many issues.
Heh. This thread made me laugh. I skimmed most of it, but still.
Can you fight a morally corrupt social system using morally corrupt methods? (And let’s make no bones about it, being party to the MURDER of ANYONE is absolutely morally corrupt!) Well, sure. You CAN. But you’re sacrificing your own moral authority and – in this particular case – your own moral right to a Nahel bond with an honor spren. Does the fact that Elhokar has done morally corrupt things – even if it’s simply listening to the wrong person – make murdering him any less morally wrong? I don’t believe so, but I suspect others may disagree with me.
What really struck my funny-bone about this whole debate was that this very subject was covered in WoK, when Jasnah took Shallan on her murdering-rapist hunt: “Was it possible to do something horrible in the name of accomplishing something wonderful?” Heh. Did Brandon Sanderson just foreshadow the reread debate on the plot to kill Elhokar? THAT would be absolute genius!