Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Dalinar was forced to play politics, acknowledging his visions and drumming up support for his upcoming expedition. This week, he takes a smaller force out on an exploratory mission… which takes an abrupt downward turn.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. For the time being, though, The Bands of Mourning and the surprise novella are off limits for the WoR reread. Let’s give people a chance to catch up without risking spoilers for a while. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 68: Bridges
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: the Shattered Plains
Symbology: Spears, Palah, Kalak
IN WHICH Team Kholin heads out on the Shattered Plains on an expedition, ostensibly to observe a chasmfiend chrysalis; Kaladin tries and fails to draw in Stormlight, and has a small altercation with Syl about it; he converses for a few minute with the bridgemen, Dalinar, and then Adolin; he repeats the failure and altercation routine, with perhaps a slightly better understanding; as Shallan sketches an unfolding mobile bridge, Kaladin recognizes one of the carpenters, but can’t place him; he is approached by Moash, who informs Kaladin that the assassination attempt is almost ready, and Kaladin’s betrayal will be super simple and easy; Kaladin is gladly distracted by Adolin, with conversation about the Assassin in White, women, and an attempt to figure out Kaladin’s powers; Kaladin admits nothing, but the two share a momentary camaraderie all the same; they attend Shallan as she sketches; Adolin teases Kaladin goodnaturedly, but Kaladin’s return is rather barbed, and Shallan catches it; she has Adolin slay the rock for her, revealing the oddity of the stone under the crem build-up; after Adolin wanders off, she censures Kaladin for his ungracious attitude and his attempt to shift the blame onto Adolin; he can’t answer her reproaches, and stomps off to join Bridge Four, carrying their bridge out across the Plains; near the farthest reach of the planned excursion, Kaladin converses with Dalinar about a feasible way to use the more mobile bridges without making the bearers so vulnerable; he watches Dalinar recrossing the last bridge in response to a call, and suddenly recognizes the carpenter as belonging to Sadeas; he charges screaming toward the bridge and Dalinar, causing Adolin to abandon Shallan in the middle of the bridge as he, too turns to run toward whatever danger Kaladin has spotted; too late to stop the carpenter, Adolin reaches Dalinar at about the same Kaladin reaches Shallan, and the bridge collapses.
Quote of the Week
“Yes,” Kaladin said. “He’s always so munificent to all of the little darkeyes who flock around to worship him.”
Shallan snapped her pencil against the page. “You really are a hateful man, aren’t you? Underneath the mock boredom, the dangerous glares, the growls— you just hate people, is that it?”
“What? No, I—”
“Adolin is trying. He feels bad for what happened to you, and he’s doing what he can to make up for it. He is a good man. Is it too much for you to stop provoking him?”
“He calls me bridgeboy,” Kaladin said, feeling stubborn. “He’s been provoking me.”
“Yes, because he is the one storming around with alternating scowls and insults,” Shallan said. “Adolin Kholin, the most difficult man to get along with on the Shattered Plains. I mean look at him! He’s so unlikable!”
She gestured with the pencil toward where Adolin was laughing with the darkeyed water boys. The groom walked up with Adolin’s horse, and Adolin took his Shardplate helm off the carrying post, handing it over, letting one of the water boys try it on. It was ridiculously large on the lad.
Kaladin flushed as the boy took a Shardbearer’s pose, and they all laughed again. Kaladin looked back to Shallan, who folded her arms, drawing pad resting on the flat-topped cut rock before her. She smirked at him.
I don’t really have anything particular to say about it. I just like this conversation. Shallan can sometimes be grating with her snark, but in this case it was well-deserved, IMO.
Commentary
There’s a lot of disparate stuff going on in this chapter, though most of it is merely setting the stage. The growing friendship between Adolin and Kaladin is fun to watch, at least until Kaladin starts taking his frustrations out on Adolin. It’s also rather fun to watch Kaladin’s embarrassment when the scouts tell Dalinar about the glowing man who was flying around out here a while back.
In a minor foreshadowing moment, Shallan is fascinated by the rock formations and asks Adolin to “slay this moss” for her—revealing that there is more to the random landscape than others assumed. It is indeed, as she had suspected, the ruins of ancient city. This will come into play again, but not for a while; one of those tidbits that you just have to tuck in your pocket for later, and hope you don’t lose it.
The main focus of the chapter, though, is the attenuation of the bond between Kaladin and Syl, setting up the disaster to come. Three times in this chapter, Kaladin attempts to draw in Stormlight, only to find that it won’t obey him. Harking back to the conversations in the comments a couple of weeks ago, this is where Kaladin finally starts trying to figure out what’s wrong with his bond. Too little, too late—and in the wrong direction, besides.
In all fairness to Kaladin, there’s a certain drawback to being the first Windrunner in centuries (or millennia, whichever it is): there’s no one to train him, no one to teach him the precepts, except for the lone spren who is attempting to reestablish the Order and whose effective intellect is strongly dependent on his following the precepts he’s supposed to be learning. It’s not entirely his fault that he doesn’t get it right, and I understand that.
Be that as it may, it’s bizarre to watch his thought processes, from the vantage point of those who know more than he does about the Nahel bonding. For one thing, there’s his assumption that the powers he’s been learning are his powers. He blames himself for losing bridgemen because he didn’t accept his powers soon enough. Then he blames Syl for capriciously withholding his powers when he doesn’t behave the way she wants him to. And… that’s what I want to explore today.
Sylphrena is a spren, not a human; she doesn’t get to rationalize and assimilate concepts to come up with her own understanding of honor the way Kaladin does. The way I see it, there are two possible sources for Syl’s “stupid, simplistic morality.”
1) She is a Splinter of Honor, and as such her standard of honor is, in a real sense, the definition of Honor in the entire Cosmere. The intent of a Shard of Adonalsium could, I think, be accepted as the definitive version of an attribute.
2) She is a spren, the physical manifestation of a Cognitive Ideal. This could possibly be characterized as either a) the general Rosharan ideal of Honor or b) Kaladin’s own ideal of Honor.
It’s even possible that more than one of these come into play. What’s not remotely part of the picture, though, is that any of it is her own capricious or simplistic definition.
Whatever the source, she is irrevocably defined by a power not her own, and she is bound to precepts beyond her control. When Kaladin behaves in ways that do not conform to the Ideal—whether that’s the Shard’s Intent, the Vorin idealization of honor, Kaladin’s own understanding of honor, or some combination—she has no choice and no power over what happens to the bond. Kaladin’s decisions violate the precepts which give her strength and sentience in the Physical Realm, resulting in her reversion toward a simple windspren and in his loss of access to the Surges the growing bond had given him.
He explains it to himself by assuming that the problem is having made two mutually-exclusive promises; I think he’s wrong. His first promise to Dalinar, to guard and protect the Kholin family (including the king), was in line with the precepts of Honor and with the Windrunner’s Ideal of protecting those who cannot protect themselves. The second promise, the one causing the problem, is not merely in conflict with the first; it’s in conflict with the Ideals he’s already spoken—and that’s the real issue.
When he offers support to the assassination of the king, it is a direct violation of both the First and Second Ideals he’s spoken so far. He rationalizes it by telling himself it’s about justice and honor, since the king is responsible—through indifference or incompetence—for the deaths of many people, and therefore needs to be removed. The problem is that Windrunner Ideals aren’t about punishing people for past actions: they are about protecting people now. He doesn’t have the authority to look back and deal out his own vigilante “justice” for the past; even in the heyday of the Knights Radiant, that would have been a task for the Skybreakers, not the Windrunners. The fact that there are no qualified Skybreakers (that we know of) doesn’t change the fact that the Windrunner Ideals simply don’t give him that option.
Kaladin’s loss of power, then, is not a matter of short-sightedly making conflicting promises. It’s a matter of making a promise which conflicts with the Ideals he’s sworn to, and moreover one which leads in a direction away from the next Ideal he needs to pursue. If he were honest with himself, he’d recognize that the assassination is not about protecting anyone. Given the current situation, Elhokar’s ability to further endanger people through the aforementioned indifference and incompetence is severely curtailed. With both Dalinar and Navani on hand, to say nothing of his other wise generals and advisors, the chances of a repeat of anything like “the Roshone affair” are slim. This isn’t about prevention or protection; it’s about revenge.
As I said, it’s tough on both of them that Syl can’t remember things until Kaladin progresses, and it’s hard for him to progress without more guidance. However, his accusation that Syl would “yank his powers away every time he did something that risked offending her” is inconsistent with his own experiences. It may, to some extent, be understandable in a human being; that doesn’t necessarily make it either right or justifiable.
Well, that’s enough to be going on with; I hope it makes some sort of sense. If not, I’ll have to try to sort it out in the comments!
Stormwatch
This takes place the day following the feast of the previous chapter; there are ten days left of the countdown.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Shallan really, really wants to see a chasmfiend up close and personal. Well, she’ll get her chance, but not this week.
Heraldic Symbolism
By my best guess, Palah reflects Shallan’s researches and studies. I’m not quite sure what to think about Kalak, though. Maker? Resolute/Builder? Willshaper? I’m kind of at a loss here.
Shipping Wars
Adolin and Shallan are so very cute. Each of them is so worried over how to keep the other interested, and there’s approximately zero chance of either of them losing interest.
Also, I really want to know a little more about Tarah, and the mistakes Kaladin made with her.
There. That should stir up enough of a hornets’ nest to keep us busy for a while. Next week, we’ll return to watch the effects of the bridge collapse. Fun fun fun!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She hopes you have all had a chance to read The Bands of Mourning and have discovered the prize at the end of the book. Do everyone a favor, though, and keep those discussions to the respective spoiler threads for a month or so yet.
Ah sorry but for myself the highlight of this chapter was not Kaladin’s struggles with Syl which have been explored in all possible layers, but the buddying friendship in between him and Adolin.
My favorite part was Adolin actually asking advice on women to Kaladin of all people. This chapter was worth reading for this scene alone. Or the scene where Adolin wonders what Kaladin would look like if he were happy and skipping all across the plains. Priceless.
Seriously, we need more Adolin. I apologize in advance for saying this.
Bridgeboy has always struck me as an excellent term of endearment. It doesn’t help that I read this fast enough that there was barely any time for the antagonism to register before they started being friendly.
Major whiplash between the spren-spotting and shipping wars this time.
I have little to add to the excellent comments above, just this: I’ve suggested before that the underlying cause of a lot of Kaladin’s problems is his temper – he’s easily prone to anger. Sometimes he is able to use his anger to fuel his motivation but other times it prevents him from thinking clearly, as we see here.
So I would say that anger for Kaladin is a double-edged sword. Like lies for Shallan. Maybe we can extend this theme to like power/authority for Dalinar.
Talking of Shallan, it’s amusing to note that later on she admits to herself that she was pretending to be more interested in the minor things on the Shattered Plains than she actually was. Still, her efforts to ensure she can sketch all sorts of things are quite amusing – I particularly liked her comment that she doesn’t “I don’t really do stately” and Adolin’s comment that she seems a bit too hopeful about the possibility of a chasmfiend attacking. “Slay the moss” is a gem of a line too.
Wait, what surprise novella? Is it a part of Bands of Mourning? (I haven’t started it yet)
Yay for re-read – hopefully soon I will have more time that I can actually re-read, instead of relying upon the broad summary and my own (sometimes faulty) memory. (Dissertation defense = soon, and then goodbye grad school!)
As for Kaladin’s unenviable position of having no external help (other than his own personal spirit guide) on his moral quest: I agree it would maybe be better if he could have someone to steer him along. But I do have to wonder how much of an influence such a thing would have.
Meaning, from what we know about the oaths and their specific nature (and certainly, this is not the case for each order, e.g. Lightweavers are all about personal truths) – can we say with certainty that they were written down and studied by the KR or the Windrunners specifically? We have no indication either way (AFAIK – I remember some discussion that the distinct words might differ at least slightly for each individual even within each Order for which the steps might be the same; was there a WoB on this?). It may have been the case, that while the up and coming KR’s would benefit from someone helping them train and potentially make their next steps, that there might have been a much more esoteric and experiential mode of learning to it – people who know and experience the things that they need will know and be led by their own experience + their personal spirit guides (spren) to make the oath(s) that they are ready for, when they are ready for them, and any external preparation might have been very general, if it existed at all. We haven’t been given very much of any glimpse at what the organizational structure of the KRs was. We simply know some of the ideals that drive it.
For what it’s worth – Brandon’s religious experience/background may correspond to this in some ways. He may have drawn some inspiration for the moral ideal system at work with the KRs from certain portions of LDS scripture. (NOTE: I’m not saying he’s setting up the KRs to look like Mormons, nor should we think that all Mormon’s think or agree on such things interpretation wise, etc – case in point – Brandon himself, a Mormon, has come up with 10 different orders that express different aspects or approaches to morality, ideals, etc.) There are, of course, many ideas that could be pertinent – this passage could be one that is/was influential:
Alma 12:9-11 –
Likewise, 2 Nephi 28:30 –
If this is the case, the case could be made that Kaladin would have had to figure out much of this on his own even if he lived in the time of the KR organization. However, it definitely would have helped to have info on process and potential costs of failure, etc even if there was not specific knowledge about what the next oath was.
I think it can be easy for us to fall into the trap of seeing the progression of KR oaths as checkboxes for enabling greater investiture. But I don’t see Brandon setting it up that way – rather he seems to be noting a very specific intentionality and personal assent to the oaths that are given. Checking a box is not what is important; imprinting and writing the oath deep inside the “fleshy tables of your heart” (2 Cor 3:3, KJV) so that it becomes part of who you are and how you interact with the world is what it is all about.
@3 ChrisRijk – that’s a really cool thought about all these characters (dare we generalize to all KRs?) have a strong character trait that is both boon and drawback for their development?
As always, and perhaps more so this week, I chose to focus on one recurring aspect of the chapter and not really spend much time on other areas. This is a balancing act every time, and it doesn’t always resolve the same way. On one hand, I don’t want to try to say everything there is to say about the chapter, because it would take me too long, involve too many words, and not leave much for the discussion. On the other hand, I like to at least mention the important bits so that I’m not ignoring a favorite part. Sometimes I lean one way, sometimes I lean the other. In this case, it was a choice between limiting what I talked about, or not posting a chapter this week at all. I chose the former. :)
While I adore the budding friendship between Adolin and Kaladin, there wasn’t anything burningly important to say about it. The best part is just rereading it and laughing at Tigger and Eeyore, you know? So I chose to focus on the aspect that is going to lay the groundwork for the next few chapters, which seemed especially needful in light of recent discussions. Then I went to bed… because sleep. I do need a couple of hours every night.
sillyslovene @5 – It’s quite true that we really don’t know much of what Knight Radiant training was like in the old days, but I don’t think it was quite such a solo thing as Kaladin is facing. He doesn’t even know the names of the Orders, including his own, until Syl becomes coherent enough to remember it. While I do suspect that each Knight had to learn the Words for themselves, most of them would have at least had some company along the way. Kaladin, at this point, is totally isolated from anyone who could help him except Syl; he can’t even look to another KR for moral support or kibbitzing, because (as far as he knows) he’s the only one in existence. Syl can’t even function as much of a mentor, because her sentience is largely dependent on Kal’s progress, so it’s very much a case of the blind leading the lame – it’s really hard not to fall into a ditch that way.
On the other hand, now that four of them know each other, and a fifth (at least) is on her way back to rejoin them (I hope), it seems reasonable that their cooperation will help them all to make more sense out of their experiences. Shallan’s books might help, too – any information is more than they’ve had so far!
Alice, if you second source for Syl’s “stupid, simplistic morality”” is option b where the spren is the physical manifestation of a Cognitive Ideal.” and for Syl, as an honorspren, that “could possibly be characterized as either a) the general Rosharan ideal of Honor or b) Kaladin’s own ideal of Honor” is correct, that could bring about a troubling number of issues. I am concerned that if, as part of the Nahel bond, a spren can become the physical manifestation of the human member of the bond’s own ideal of the spren’s Cognitive Ideal. This implies that each Knight Radiant within his or her order can have practically different values. It is possible that one’s definition of an ideal (honor in the case of a Windrunner) can be different based upon their upbringing, their place in society, their education, etc. This strikes me as too elastic (for lack of a better word). It could ultimately end up having truly different aims and directions for each Order and ultimately lead to a cold war if not a hot war within the Order.
I think the answer (the “source for Syl’s “stupid, simplistic morality””) is more likely a combination of options A and B. As with Alice’s option b, I believe that spren (specifically those that are the spren of the 10 Orders) are “the physical manifestation of a Cognitive Ideal.” The spren (who I will assume for my theory were present in the Cognitive Realm before the splitting of Andonalsium into 16 Shards and Cultivation and Honor coming to Roshar and always had the means to interact or view the Physical Realm) saw the Heralds and began to mimic the powers represented by their Honorblades. Despite being called an Honorblade, I do not believe that all “Honorblades” represent the Ideal of Honor. Only Jezrien’s Honorblade is the manifestation of the Shard Honor. If all of the Honorblades represented the manifestation of the ideal of Honor, then all the Honorblades would imbue the user with the same skills. That is not the case. The Spren copied the powers bestowed by these Honorblades.
Further, such copying was not just in the Physical Realm (the powers the Honorblades bestowed). Rather, it was also copied in the Cognitive Realm. This took the form of the ideals manifested by the Heralds who held the Honorblades. This is why the 10 Orders have different Oaths (other than the First Oath — which is the broadest in scope). If all the Nahel Bond spren are Splinters of Honor, there should be no differences between the Orders. That is not the case. Syl says that Kaladin explanation that his agreement to Moash to support the assassination plot is not honor. Instead it is a form of justice, which is a concept that a highspren would champion.
My above theory would not be possible without the ideas Alice presented above. I am by no means smart enough to come up with it from scratch. Rather than invent the wheel, I tried to tweak her excellent theories to conform with how I view things in RL. I would also note that my beliefs are based upon only reading the Stormlight Archives. I have not read the other Cosmere books. Perhaps reading those would cause me to somewhat alter my theory — depending upon how spren are addressed in other worlds and what connection the Spiritual and Cognitive Realm has with the other physical worlds — not just the Physical Realm on Roshar.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
The builder herald makes sense because the chapter is about building and destroying bridges (and relationships). Dalinar and Kaladin discuss building effective bridges, and the chapter ends with the collapse of a bridge. Kaladin and Adolin build up their relationship, while the relationship between Kaladin and Syl collapses.
Hihosilver28, it’s Mistborn: Secret History. It just came out as an ebook. I haven’t read it yet, since i don’t have my copy of Bands of Mourning yet.
The more I think about the structure of Surgebinding, the more I think it might be too restrictive. Rigidity of Shardic intents and ideals may be a Cosmere-wide theme, but we’ve also seen Shards use some creative thinking to get around that same rigidity. Scadrial’s Preservation knows his own limitations and still finds a way to circumvent them as part of his joint creation with Ruin.
Sanderson has told us that a splintered Shard without any intelligence to take it up spawns mini-intelligences of its own. I think we’re going to see a lot more individuality in spren than we’re expecting. In the same way that the Shards of Adonalsium represent different takes on the power of the original, it could be that spren (especially honorspren) reflect different facets of Honor.
Syl’s morality sometimes appears to be so strict that it seems an unrealistic ideal for a human to live up to, even an exceptional person. By nature, we’re conflicted and inconsistent. We don’t always uphold the things we say we believe in and we often hold contradictory beliefs and make conflicting commitments.
Jaime Lannister from A Song of Ice and Fire makes a great illustration of conflicting oaths. His conversation about oaths in A Storm of Swords has relevance for Kaladin’s situation too. He swore oaths to protect a king, to protect that king’s family and subjects, and to uphold a set of knightly ideals. He, too, found himself in a situation where those oaths did not neatly align with one course of action. Elhokar is not Aerys, but I think it is valid to consider that he might not be upholding his duties as king. Just because the system of KR ideals presents itself as being harmonious doesn’t necessarily mean it is always lived that way.
A passage from the in-world Words of Radiance hints that the Knights Radiant did struggle with living their oaths. The Lightweavers are mentioned as providing spiritual sustenance to the other Orders. They’re said to have rallied their comrades following a defeat. With none of the KR infrastructure in place, training is not the only thing that’s lacking. The interdependence of the Orders probably helped their members balance lives of service and sacrifice against the challenges of human nature.
@@.-@: Don’t go looking for it until after reading Bands of Mourning. It will ruin a surprise.
And hopefully you have read the original Mistborn trilogy as well.
The Preface even says: “This story contains enormous spoiler for the first three Mistborn novels. Seriously, please don’t read this unless you’ve read those books.”
For those that don’t like eBooks, I saw on Brandon’s Twitter feed that later this year a hard back collection of Cosmere stories will be publish. It will be included in that book. So it will be out later in book format.
Back to the Chapter: If Adolin had ever said “bridgeboy” with a sneer – I’d give more weight to Kaladin’s complaint. Instead, I’m totally on Shallan’s side. Thanks Alice for highlighting that conversation. And Adolin’s interaction with the waterboy.
Quote:
Then, JK had Sirius Black say something similar in Harry Potter. Since we have to deal with this culture that has “socially lesser people”, I’m happy to see the “good guys” treat those under them like actual people. Not game pieces like other Highprinces.
Since Sly exited prior to Kaladin – and will exist is some form after Kaladin – I don’t think she can be the physical manifestation of Kaladin’s own ideal of Honor. That leaves her as Rosharan ideal of honor as the god shard Honor would see it. Gods, Sharads, and pure concepts have to see things differently than the human brain. As the later comments from last week pointed out. Humans see things differently than any pure concepts. We see a ton of grade shades that influence our outlook. If anything, I think humans focus on the exceptions more than the general trend of an ideal.
You left out the scene where Kaladin immediately recognizes the significance of Shallan’s cut rock as indicating structures in the Shattered Plains buried by the centuries of crem accumulation. Shallan then snarkly says, “You’re smarter than you look.”. So, there are 2 characters here that exhibit this tendency. This will only get worse in the next chapter when they have at each other before calming down and learning to appreciate one another.
@11 Braid_Tug
I’ve always read Adolin’s use of “bridgeboy” as more derogatory than endearing. I’m open to seeing it change as they get to know and trust one another more. WoR shows us growth in that direction, but there’s no mistaking Kaladin’s interpretation of it as demeaning.
Adolin’s noted for his professionalism in the way he carries out his responsibilities. He’s not overly familiar with any of his subordinates, and he’s careful to use proper forms of dress, language, and behavior in his interactions with Kholin troops. Even though Kaladin isn’t under his direct command, Adolin’s behavior toward him is very uncharacteristic, and not because Kaladin is a friend. He’s suspicious of Kaladin, even as he’s getting to know the man.
I think the Bridgeboy nickname started out as derogatory, but it isn’t now at all. That’s very much a guy thing, especially young guys like Adolin. He used it at first as an insult, but now it’s a way of saying “I respect you but that would make conversation uncomfortable so I’m going to let you know how much I respect you by pretending to insult you.” And Kaladin totally gets that.
@@@@@ 13 Halien
Here’s what I’ve always thought: regardless of whether it’s endearing or derogatory (honestly, I think it’s been used both ways), I think that Adolin is merely playing the role that Kaladin insists upon. In lighteyes vs darkeyes he holds some major prejudices and has, up until maybe around this point, consistently pigeonholed Adolin (it’s not entirely undeserved). So Adolin calls him bridgeboy because he’ll always be the stuck up, lighteyed prince to Kaladin. Things and opinions are evolving but regardless of how dense Adolin seems, since he is pretty good with people I think he’s responding to Kaladin the way Kaladin’s been responding to him.
Bridgeboy I think comes off worse because, while Adolin’s intent is not mean, the term he has come up with has more latent cruelty to it than, say, princeling. It’s a diminutive term referring to a period of Kaladin’s life that, while he remembers with weird fondness now, was a period of death and constant worry. It’s also basically like calling Kaladin slaveboy or criminalboy, considering those were basically what bridgemen were. Adolin doesn’t mean it like that at all, of course, but language isn’t all just intent, words do matter. Fortunately by this point Kaladin reads the intent behind it which is why when he complains about it, the complaint feels toothless. It’s not, of course, but it’s kind of a guy thing like others have said to ignore the little details like that.
And yay the chasms scenes are finally here! This is probably my favorite overall sequence in Words of Radiance, even if at times it feels like Kaladin’s character suffers a bit extra just so Shallan’s can shine. As for in this chapter, while Shallan wasn’t wrong to defend Adolin, it’s very much a moment of hypocrisy, because she’s worse in this regard. But well, maybe Kaladin should have checked to make sure he wasn’t saying anything bad about Adolin right as Adolin was in the middle of an adorable scene (although one that technically falls in line with Kaladin’s statement about being munificent and all…but Kaladin just isn’t good enough at snark-offs to match Shallan).
I think what amuses me most about what’s going to happen though is that, this is the serious fantasy equivalent of the two bickering characters being handcuffed together. It’s not quite that on the nose but it really felt close even on that first read, and subsequent rereads never changed that feeling. :D
I feel terrible to admit it, but I actually skipped the chasm scenes on my first read.. This is how much I disliked them.
@17: Honestly you shouldn’t feel bad, with books this size there’s no shame if there’s a part you need to skip. You went back and read it at some point, that’s worth something.
When I was like…12, reading WoT for the first time, I would always skip ahead to say Mat’s segments during the girls’ parts, because he was my favorite character. Later I could go back and read the later ones as they were presented completely, but one of the strengths of BOOKS as an artform is that it is much easier to jump around while reading them.
It does help for your first interaction with a book to be a complete read-through of it as the author intended it, but you actually bring more to a conversation if your first interaction with it was non-linear, as it differentiates you from the majority in that sense I’d say.
And that’s even though personally I feel like skipping the chasms sequence is skipping out on what is easily the best sequence of chapters for character development through interaction. But well it’s Adolin’s love interest helping out Kaladin so color me not surprised you skipped it your first time.
@18: I did went back to read it afterwards but I simply was more interested in reading part 5. The reason I didn’t feel like reading it immediately was because they revolved around Kaladin, again. Part 4 had been so heavy on Kaladin, when I reached this point, seeing it was going to be again on Kaladin seriously got on my nerves, so I skipped ahead to read the rest of the story.
It isn’t I dislike Kaladin, but it isn’t him I wanted to read about at that point in time. The nearly complete lack of my favorite character frustrated me as I did wish the author had spend a chapter or two on him. The prospect to hear Kaladin dragged down in the chasm, a scene I felt I was forced to like, was too dreadful, so I skipped to the end.
I re-read it afterwards, but it remains my least favorite scenes. It isn’t the character development was not great, it is because it was about Kaladin once again. I do love character development, but I felt Kaladin has had enough of it already. I wanted the story to spend more time on other characters.
Good post as always Wet/Alice, and thanks for getting one out during this fairly busy Sanderson-infused week. Just want to share my opinion on part of your post.
“The problem is that Windrunner Ideals aren’t about punishing people for past actions: they are about protecting people now.”
This is an interesting way to present it, and for the most part I like it, but it still seems incomplete.
I don’t know; I agree that punishment shouldn’t play a role in the Windrunner’s actions, but it seems like history and past actions should play a role in the perception of the applicability of the Ideals, right?
Take the third ideal: “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” Emotions (“those I hate”) and morality (“it is right”) can be (and in the case of emotions, often are) products of past actions or behavior; they are often informed or shaped by the past.
Or to use a more identifiable example, let’s use Kal’s utterance of the Second Ideal: “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.” He states it right before aiding Dalinar’s army at the Tower. Dalinar’s army were all armed soldiers, they could protect themselves. They were just being defeated by a superior force. Is it the role of a Windrunner to jump into any battle they see and protect/defend the lesser force? If not, then it seems that Kaladin shouldn’t have been able to utter the Second Ideal, level up and attack/kill the Parshendi due to a tactical mistake on the part of the Kholin army…unless past actions come into play. Such as the fact that (according to Dalinar in WoK, and supported by Sadeas (and his past actions) in WoR) Parshendi have not left any survivors in the past.
To be fair Alice, it seems as though you were emphasizing the “punishing people” aspect of your statement and not the “for past actions” or Past-vs-Present part; I’m just saying that I think part of what defines “protecting people now” can be and often would be informed by the past actions of the party the Windrunner is protecting against. And that “protection” can include killing, where the Windrunner finds it necessary to do so.
The question (to me) then becomes, who/what justifies when it is necessary for the Windrunner to kill in order to protect?
…Having said all of that, I totally agree that in his heart of hearts, Kaladin knew the assassination was not about protecting Alethkar from an incompetent king. This was not about protection.
Also, this is one of the many chapters that I feel displays why Adolin and Shallan are such a good pairing.
I think Kaladin’s damaged relationship with Syl and the results of it are also meant to give us some idea of what happened when the Knights revoked their oaths on the Day of Recreance. It’s not the main reason, but I do think it’s a nice secondary effect of it. Eventually we’ll probably know all about the Nahal bond, what happens when it’s broken, and etc, but Brandon likes to spread that kind of knowledge out over time.
This is one of my favorite chapters simply because I love the dynamic between Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin. I may have strong opinions about romantic resolution between them, but regardless of however that turns out, it would be great fun just to watch a nice, complicated, character-developing, rich relationship between them in future books. It’s hard to beat a well-written relationship involving three strong characters likable in their own rights, with their own distinct arcs, who have complicated feelings toward and histories with each other, and who just interact really entertainingly. It does wonders for the nuance of the characters and the import of everything that happens to them (since when something happens to one character, it affects the others, too).
I’m also curious about Tarah, especially since Kaladin says she helped coax him out of his depression and obsession with spear training after Tien’s death. I wonder what sort of a woman managed to do that, and then how Kaladin failed her in some way “different” from the others. And who was she in the first place? I doubt there were many women around in Amaram’s army – were there families like at the Shattered Plains? Or was she a prostitute, maybe?
Oh, and in other news – Brandon Sanderson announced in his newsletter on Thursday that he’s planning to write a Stormlight novella, probably featuring Lift, and perhaps a short story about Lopen that he’ll release with the Cosmere short fiction collection near Christmas. I, for one, can’t wait.
@10 Halien I wonder what a Windrunner would do if she/he were in Jaime Lannister’s position. Going to think on that this weekend.
I really enjoyed the interactions between Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin as well. I think Kaladin has residual resentment towards Adolin but after the duel and aftermath, it’s clearly evaporating–his snarky comment towards Adolin didn’t really have any bite. He knows Adolin’s a good man at this point, and I suspect that’s going to be their dynamic moving forward–Kaladin acts grumpier than he actually feels and Adolin knows not to take it too seriously.
I am excited for the chasm scenes–I have a lot of thoughts about a lot of it re: the class divide and perceptions of it between Shallan/Kaladin, and what’s going on in the storm. This is one of my favorite passages in the book so I’m excited to dissect it all with you.
Hi. I’ve been working my way through both of the re-reads and I finally caught up, so I figured I should say hello. It’s been interesting to watch you guys debate and speculate, though I’m not sure if I want to join in myself. The only theory or position I have that I haven’t already seen stated, and more eloquently than I could probably manage, is the joking one that Vivenna isn’t on Roshar because of all the seafood. So, uh, carry on.
On the subject of Kaladin’s response to Adolin’s humour, it’s worth noting that Kaladin’s own humour tends to run towards the slightly insulting. Remember when he told Teft “if we rejected Bridgemen based on looks, we’d have kicked you out weeks ago for that face of yours” in TWOK? I always read it that Kaladin was responding to Adolin in the same spirit as Adolin had been talking to him – teasing, rather than deliberately barbed. Shallan is the one who assumes that Kaladin framed the insult in a way he suspected Adolin wouldn’t understand, but we’ve never seen Kaladin think of Adolin as stupid. Spoiled, yes. But not stupid. So…was he actually trying to be rude to Adolin, or was that just Shallan’s assumption?
@25 sylphrenakholin
The thing about vitoralic friendships is they can be really confusing to outsiders, and the often do start with real insults.
Adolin and Kaladin didn’t start off liking or trusting one another. By the end of WoR, that’s changed, but I doubt the insults will–although now they will be good-natured.
Oddly enough, when you see two guys who are like this suddenly get overly stiff and formal with each other, it often means they’re mad and their friendship has somehow been damaged.
@25 sylphrenakholin: Given how Kaladin responds when Shallan calls him on it, I get the sense that Kaladin did mean to insult Adolin to some extent. His comment about Adolin being munificent to the darkeyes worshiping him seems genuinely caustic, especially since Adolin is out of earshot and isn’t there to interpret it as friendly teasing. I think Shallan is mostly right here: Adolin likes Kaladin and is trying to be friendly, but Kaladin stubbornly keeps being offended. I think that at this point Kaladin does like Adolin too, but hates to admit (to himself or anybody else) that he’s actually warming up to the supposedly spoiled princeling.
@24 Naive_misanthrope: I applaud you for getting through all those posts. I just jumped in and started foisting my opinions on everybody without reading through the archives. Anyways, that is quite a good reason for both Vivenna and Brandon Sanderson to stay away from Roshar. If you don’t like shelled crustacean things, Roshar is not really your place.
There are clues scattered across the book which indicates Adolin has no idea how demeaning the term “bridgeboy” is to Kaladin nor does he understand what the other man has been through. It is even more obvious in the chapter where Adolin tries to crack a joke, once again, and Kaladin respond by being serious about his scars. Or each time Adolin wrongly assumes Kaladin ever had the time to engage into courtship with women.
Adolin just doesn’t get it. He tries, but he doesn’t understand. He can’t. He hasn’t lived through the same ordeal and nobody saw fit to explain it to him. He understands what bridgemen are used for, he disagrees with it, but he does not comprehend what it is like.
Hence, when he uses the term “bridgeboy” I don’t think he truly understands how the name is being received. For all of his “supposed social skills”, Adolin tends to stick his foot into his mouth more often than not. He doesn’t think before he speaks.
Kaladin however was perfectly well aware he was insulting Adolin. Why? My understanding was he was midly annoyed Adolin was actually being nice. He wants to keep on hating him, he needs to keep on hating him in order to keep on justifying his hatred towards the lighteyes. Adolin embodies everything he has come to hate: he is the walking living proof lighteyes are nothing more than capricious spoiled arrogant fools. This is the line of thought Kaladin has been ardently trying to defend all through the book, but Adolin just threw it back to him by actually being nice and generous and caring. So there I feel Kaladin just got so fed up with Adolin being exactly NOT was he was supposed to be, he called him unobnoxious. He tried to diminished him, to be mean.
I think however Kaladin isn’t angry at Adolin, he’s angry at himself for falling to admit he was wrong, but he lashes out to Adolin instead of himself.
So for me both remarks justify themselves by the proper perspective. Adolin isn’t trying to be demeaning towards Kaladin: he is just really NOT good at making friends (we speak here of the most social individual we have met and yet the loneliest). Kaladin isn’t trying to be mean to Adolin specifically, but to vent out his anger at seeing his carefully crafted perception fall to pieces.
This being said, am I the only one who felt sad to hear Adolin ask Kaladin about women? Kaladin!!! Who would think to ask him of all people about women? Only someone who truly has no one else to ask this things, to talk to.
@22: Brandon has said a few months ago he planned on a novella on Lift, but I thought he had dropped the idea until he posted it again.
I had wonder, why Lift? Why not anyone else? Lift will get to become a main character, we are going to spend a great deal lot of chapters with her, so why spend time on a novel on her now when she isn’t at her most interesting?
@27: Thanks! I’m reasonably sure I’ve been lurking long enough to get the hang of the accepted behaviors and lingo.
@28 Perhaps he wants to tell part of her story that is essential to her character development or background, but doesn’t fit easily into an interlude chapter or her planned novel? That way he can get it out to the readers instead of cluttering up the narrative. Or maybe because she’s one of the more “fun” characters, and easier to write something short about than the more “serious” characters.
@28 Gepeto, is it that Adolin is bad at making friends or that he lives in a society where genuine connections and friendships are hard to make because many of his peers are schemers and connivers who can’t really be trusted (i.e. Jakamav). Somewhere in WoK he thinks to himself that he prefers to keep most people apart from Renarin at a distance–this could be any number of things, but I wonder if it’s a natural response to growing up around people who would gladly use him for his status or throw him under the bus once his family’s prestige takes a hit for personal gain. Based on his status, I imagine he would have to be very picky about the sort of people who he really lets in–perhaps on some subconscious level he knows that his immediate family are the only ones who truly value him for himself and not his status and money, hence the distance.
@28 Gepeto: That is a very good analysis of Adolin and Kaladin’s relationship. Spot on. I don’t have anything to add.
@30 rosiej: I think Adolin is quite experienced and skilled at the sort of shallow social interaction that’s common in Alethi high society – it surrounds him and he’s expected to participate, and so he’s responded by learning how to deal with it. He spends time with friends like Jakamav, he courts women, he goes to parties, &c. He’s able to play the game, while Kaladin (to his detriment) doesn’t have the patience for that sort of thing. Where Adolin struggles is with the deeper, trusting relationships that the Alethi court doesn’t really support. So I think the society around him is a factor in his loneliness. I’m sure there are other things playing into it, though, like past experiences with family members and friends. (Gepeto has got me thinking about how his mother’s death may have affected him, for instance.)
@24
Welcome! Joking or not someone else is thinking about Vivenna, thus I like you.:D
Now to catch up on the other comments.
I have a great lot of theories which explains why Adolin, despite his outgoing friendly exterior, seem to struggle so much at developing relationships. We can blame society, but the fact remains other young lighteyes are not seen having the same problem.
If anyone’s interested, I can post my thoughts on the matter, later tonight, but I’d probably be a wall of text. I doubt any of it is going to be canon as Brandon explicitly stated he didn’t want to explore Adolin’s past and he didn’t think it was interesting. A shame as it indicates he may not have done all the work to draft this character, but it still is interesting to think about it.
@28 Gepeto, I agree with @31 sheesania that your analysis of the Adolin-Kaladin relationship is correct. I would only add that his use of ‘bridgeboy’ for Kaladin was initially intended to be demeaning since he had resented Kaladin’s ordering him around in the rescue of Dalinar’s remaining army. He may be gregarious, but he still retains the Alethi/Vorin sence of entitlement for Lighteyes – particularly high status ones. After he saw Kaladin’s extraordinary bravery and effectiveness in fending off Szeth’s attack and entering the fray against 4 shardbearers, the term was only used jocularly.
I agree that it’s sad that Adolin feels the need to seek advice on romance from Kaladin who doesn’t appear to pay any masculine attention to women. Perhaps he reasoned that Kaladin must have had some serious relationship with a woman in the past and may have been just as effective in fostering her loyalty to him as he has with his Bridge4 squad.
It is not clear to me that the prospective novella about Lift is intended as a stand-alone work. I assume, rather, that it is a preview of chapters in the new SA book dealing with her subsequent to that interlude in WOR.
STBLST @@@@@ 34 – I disagree with your assessment of Adolin about feeling entitled because he is Lighteyes. He did not like being ordered by Kaladin at the Tower not because Kaladin is darkeyes but because Kaladin is not in his chain of command.
Adolin is a military man, and that is second to him being heir to a High Prince. He feels responsibility not entitlement.
Yes, he resented Kaladin but it is more of because Adolin is not used getting orders other than his father or the King, or Navani. Even Elhokar, before he was King was at the same rank as Adolin. Very few can order Adolin around.
Let us put this on a personal level. You are the first born in a household of 6. You have your parents and 3 other siblings. Then a kid who is about your age comes to stay in your house because your parents are babysitting him for unknown reasons. Then that kid just tells what to do in your own home. Won’t you feel resentment?
It does not matter if that kid is green, blue or purple. In your eyes, that kid has no right to order you around in YOUR OWN HOME!!!
I hope this explains to you the reason for Adolin’s resentment and it not prejudice. It just is.
Kaladin is able to say his oaths to gain Investiture only when his soul aligns with the Words. Thus, his Bond with Syl involves building his soul, oath by oath, until it fully aligns with the Full Ideal of his order. The stakes become higher with the more oaths built into the soul of the KR, actions become more restrictive. That’s why it’s important to choose the right candidate, one with the type of soul that most closely resembles the Order’s Ideals. I wonder what happens to those who cannot progress, who cannot internalize all the ideals of their order. And how often does the situation occur. Are those who can internalize and recite the full oath set common or rare?
@@@@@ 35 I disagree with the claim that Adolin is not entitled.
Adolin is not used to being ordered around, save by three individuals in the whole of Alethkar, precisely because he is an extremely high ranking lighteyes. And, I can‘t tell you the exact page, but Adolin states that „everyone has their place in life, lighteyes and darkeyes“. Unsaid, but implied by this is, that his place just happens to be socially above 99,99% of his entire nation. If that is not the essence of an aristocratic entitlement I don‘t know what is.
And Kaladin wasn‘t a little kid ordering another kid around on a whim – he was saving Adolin‘s life in battle with Adolin unable to make rational decisions.
Actually I really like Adolin, he‘s funny and charming and I agree that he is an unusual character for a fantasy series. But Adolin has his flaws. They are exactly what one would expect from a basically good-hearted, down-to-earth guy who is nearly a prince. He is no tyrant but he is very unthinkingly privileged.
@3 ChrisRijk: That is a really interesting idea. It would be quite neat if each order (like sillyslovene suggested) has some character trait that is both a strength and a weakness, a particular gift and a hamartia. Though I’m not sure if anger is really the root of what’s going on with Kaladin – I feel like there’s some deeper character trait that’s causing the anger in the first place. Perhaps it’s a sense of injustice, or protectiveness. But lies for Shallan and power for Dalinar seem just right.
@5 sillyslovene: I think you may be on to something in drawing a parallel between the system of morality in a religion like Mormonism and the oaths, KR orders, &c., especially in how law (the ideals) and relationship (with a spren) are connected. I have some more things I could say about this, but…they have to do with connections and similarities to my own Christian beliefs, and I’m not sure what the general feeling on this reread is when it comes to talking about stuff like that. So, if people are interested I can contribute some thoughts about Sanderson’s religious background and the structure of the KR, informed by my beliefs coming from a religion closely related to his own – but otherwise I will desist.
Re: flexbility of ideals and the individuality of spren – I think one important thing to keep in mind is that Honor is dead now, which he probably wasn’t at the time of the ancient Radiants (“Q: Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance? A: I believe after. I’m pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.”). That may have some significant effects on how individual each spren is, and the more individual a spren is, the more likely it is that they get to determine what exactly constitutes following the ideal, breaking an oath, &c.
@33 Gepeto: I would enjoy seeing your wall of text on Adolin’s problems with relationships. Never mind if it’s not technically canon – solid character analysis is essentially exploring and elucidating canon in order to understand it better.
@35: I understand the point you are trying to make: Kaladin was greeted opened-armed into the family and given a privilege treatment (by privilege here, I mean the right to speak up in front of the king and to be put outside the command structure) almost instantaneously which surely had to get on Adolin’s nerves. I would however state the reason Adolin initially distrust (distrust not dislike) Kaladin is mainly because he feels the man is hiding something and his father should be more wary around him.
It is stated on several occasions Kaladin ordering Adolin around during the Tower is for nothing in Adolin’s attitude. Kaladin mentions how Adolin has been practically unconscious on his two feet when he found him and Adolin later admits he barely even remembers the event. All in all, Adolin was just too damn exhausted, on the verge of collapsing to actually take full note of a darkeyed ordering him.
Therefore, Adolin’s negative reaction towards Kaladin is entirely linked to his distrust: he does not know the man and his father is putting him into their confidence. I’d note here Adolin never once complained over Kaladin being made Captain: he complains over Kaladin being invited to their private counsels.
Of course, while Adolin starts of mistrusting Kaladin, Kaladin starts up immediately disliking Adolin. They hit it on early on in the series through a series of snarling remarks such as: “If you need someone to fetch you a cup of tea ask someone else.” or “Oh bridgeboy if you want a real horse, there is Windstorm over here.”.
And it goes on and on and on, both alternating into putting more oil onto the fire.
However Adolin starts to back way after the first encounter with Szeth: Kalain gained his respect there. He stops being antagonist, he even tries to crack a few jokes at Kaladin, but is rewarded by growls and frowns. At that point in time, Adolin decides Kaladin is just plain unlikable.
Why Adolin stops viewing Kaladin as unlikable? I do not know. Perhaps because he just tried harder after the duel. In any advent, even Kaladin can’t resist to Adolin’s playful personality and has to concede being an entitled storming rich prince does not prevent Adolin from actually being a nice person.
It was beautiful to watch.
I would however agree with @36 here with regards to Adolin being entitled. He is entitled. I thought of the very same quote, the one where he indeed states there is an order to the world and the lighteyed are above the darkeyed. He does say it and he does believe it. How can he not believe it? He was raised this way, he never saw reason to question a system which has advantaged him. It goes back to him not realizing what the class difference means. He has no idea.
He is naturally compassionate and caring, but these qualities have a hard time shining in a world where he is evolving around even more entitled and spoiled beings than him.
I think Adolin needs good down-to-earth first experience with the lower class, he needs to walk a mile into another man’s shoes and then, these qualities will truly shine.
But right now, he is entitled. Entitled but not demeaning. He never once acted demeaning towards anyone. With Kaladin, it was something else at work, like two roosters hitting it of, but he wasn’t purposefully trying to be demeaning.
@38: I will be my pleasure. I will work on it today, so you can expect it sometimes later in the evening or tomorrow.
Lilaer @@@@@ 37 – Entitled is different from prejudiced. Kaladin is prejudiced on Lighteyes, he does not like Lighteyes on principle. Adolin is entitled because of his birth. But he is not prejudiced. Look at how he treats the dark eye water boy. As for Kaladin, he treats all Lighteyes with contempt. Now, that is the difference,
my problem is that I notice that commenters are interchanging entitled with prejudice. Those are two different things. I don’t want to mention real life examples because it will be politically incorrect and this is the wrong forum.
Anyway, I have decided to just lurk around here simply because “prejudice” is becoming the theme. I read about it on the headlines and watch it on the news including gossip at TMZ. I don’t want to read it here when it is supposed to be a fantasy world.
@41: I think people are using the term entitled not in the sense of prejudiced, but in the sense of Adolin not questioning society, not asking why and thinking he deserves his privilege due to his birth and his eye color. In that regards, he does act entitled, but he isn’t prejudiced or purposefully demeaning. He just never been in a situation which would allow him to truly comprehend and without first hand experience, he has a hard time understanding.
Think of the rich kid who’s always evolved into the upper crust of society. Even the nicest generous one of them would have hard time picturing what life is for the normal people.
So yes, I’d say it is a flaw in Adolin, his lack of questioning and second guessing.
@42
I agree, Adolin has never behaved as if he considered darkeyes in some way subhuman or as bad people, or anything like that. Adolin is much more like a true medieval aristocrat, who believed that the world was ordered like it is by god. Medieval people did not ‚need‘ racism to justify the nobility absolutely ruling the peasants. (Not that that makes it fine, not at all, it just… was a different kind of mindset.)
@43: Adolin is able to appreciate the worth of a darkeyed, but he still thinks their positions is below his. In that regards, he pretty much embraced his father’s views on the matter as we have seen Dalinar reward and recognize worth in any individual, no matter their eye color. Just like his father, he would honor any person he deems worthy, but he would do it within the range of acceptability of their society.
I’d note here Adolin tried to do more for Kaladin… Giving him Shards was not just a “Thank you for saving my life” gesture, but also a “I think you deserve to be one of us and I wish you to be” kind of gesture.
Adolin is just not rebellious, nor is he the one to contest authority. He blatantly and easily accepts order, he looks for authority figures which likely is another reason why he struggles with individuals, such as Kaladin, who just can’t do the same.
Adolin likes things, events and people to be predictable which is probably one of the reasons he looks up to Dalinar so much. He doesn’t want to be trust into the uncertainty, he doesn’t want to lead which makes completely unsuitable to start questioning his entire world unless he is forced to by events.
@45 Gepeto: That was awesome. I’ll probably have further comments later, but for now, thanks for sharing.
@46: If you want to talk about it without encumbering the thread, you can PM me.
I find Adolin adorable in this chapter. I can’t help but think of him like a puppy in here.
Actually my favorite part of this chapter is a very small part with Rock. When Rock says to Kaladin “The bridge is light because we defeated Sadeas. Is the proper way of things.” I love Rock’s way of looking at the world. Though I really do wonder what Rock is doing on this outing on the Shattered Plains.
@45
Nice job on the wall of text. You’ve seemed to to encapsulate a lot of unwritten things about Adolin’s past. I’d be interesting in see if seeing how much it matches up with Sanderson’s Adolin.
I know that it’s conjecture but I feel like this could also be used as an argument for why Adolin could eventually become a Knight Radiant because like you said not all hardship needs to be the gross traumatic experiences that we’ve seen from Kaladin and Shallan. (Although to be fair we don’t know what “broke” Shallan; given that Shallan bonded with Pattern before the trauma of killing her mother.)
I feel a bit like Sanderson is kinda giving us a red herring when he had Syl say in this chapter that all the Knights were “broken”. We’re now going to looking for people who fit the mold that was given by Kaladin and Shallan and the more “broken” that is characters like Adolin.
I know there are those who don’t want Adolin to become a KR but personally I think he’s a candidate for one.
@48: Puppy Adolin! I love the imagery. He will forever be reminded as an annoyingly playful Golden retriever puppy happily bouncing around the bigger, scarier and heavily scarred black Bulldog that is Kaladin. The puppy just wants to play, while the growling Bulldog wonders if it would be appropriate for him to shove him away with his paw.
@49
And now for a completely useless post. Where I’ve just re-cast a bunch the characters in Stormlight Archive as different dog breeds
Kaladin: Doberman
Adolin: Golden Retriever
Shallan: Irish Setter
Dalinar: Great Dane
Navani: Yorkshire Terrier
Lopen: Corgi
Rock: St. Bernard
Renarin: Dachshund
Jasnah: Afghan hound
Anyone else want to give their opinions on the important topic.
Lift- Jack Russell Terrier (boundless energy, getting to everywhere and anywhere)
Elhokar – Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Moash – No dog for him. It will be an insult to the dog.
Szeth – pitbull
LOVE IT.
I agree Kaladin is much more of a Doberman than a Pitbull… I was looking for some mean looking dog… but Doberman is much better.
Adolin definitely is a playful cute little Golden Retriever: I will fight to death anyone claiming to the contrary.
Love the rest of the cast.
I was torn between Mastiff and Doberman for Kaladin but Doberman makes more sense. The original point of the breed for Doberman’s was to protect their owners. The scariness of the breed is generally all in the looks. They are really loyal and caring dogs with a lot of energy, which is essentially Kaladin in dog form.
Personally I would put Moash as a chihuahua.
@49 Gepeto: About losing Tien being more traumatic than Adolin losing his mother – There was a lot more than just Tien’s death going on there. Kaladin had specifically promised his parents to protect Tien, so when his brother died he felt he was personally failing the three people closest to him. He’d also given up all of his plans to be a surgeon in an effort to save his brother, so once Tien was dead he had essentially exchanged his life and parents’ hopes for nothing. Also, the circumstances of Tien’s death were quite violent. We don’t know much at all about Shhh’s death, but I doubt Adolin had thrown aside all his other goals and personally committed to keeping her alive, then watched her die violently. I would certainly agree that losing any loved one, parent or sibling, is a tragic experience that could leave deep scars – but we know that a lot of other factors were magnifying the trauma in Kaladin’s experience, and we don’t know that for Adolin.
By the way, may I also suggest that somebody’s past being “tragic” or not is partly defined by how they act in the current day? Kaladin and Shallan clearly are still struggling with the trauma in their pasts; it is a major part of their lives. Thus, they are “tragic”. Adolin, on the other hand, generally isn’t having problems with his past except in a few key areas; he’s less defined by it. Thus, he’s not “tragic”. An associate of mine, actually, saw her sister die in a car accident when they were teenagers and went through a lot of relationship difficulties with her family after that. Does that automatically make her “tragic”? I doubt most people would think of her that way once they see how happy, functional, and involved with other things she is now, decades after the fact. Those past experiences – though they were painful – don’t define her and significantly affect her now.
Kei_rin @@@@@ 53 Can we just put Moash as cockroach? LOL I feel bad for the chihuahua. They are very loyal too.
Though mentally I understand that there should be a Judas and chances are Moash’s character is needed. But emotionally, I have a hard time forgiving Moash for actually thinking of killing Kaladin when he owes Kaladin everything.
@55 Sheiglagh
LOL cockroach!Moash.
The choice for chihuahua for Moash is actually showing my own negative bias to the breed. (I’ve been know to call them rat dogs before. They are my least favorite breed of dog.) Chihuahua have always annoyed me with their yappy over-aggressiveness. Which personally I feel fits Moash. He’s aggressive towards just about everyone including Kal when things don’t go his way and he constantly yapping about how they are “Bridge Four” but only when it benefits himself. I’m with you though on the not being able to emotionally forgive Moash for his betrayal. But if we’re going to do a re-cast of Stormlight characters as dogs we’re going to have to overlook the loyal aspect of dogs because I don’t think there is a breed of dog that isn’t described as loyal.
What do you think of Sadeas as as pug? (Though I feel a little bad about this one as pug are adorable little dogs.)
And Amaram as Chinese Crested Dog (generally agreed to be one of the ugliest dogs when put to a vote)
I wonder what Wit/Hoid would be… maybe a wolf/husky hybrid.
Love the dogs! Though Jasnah strikes me as a cat more than anything else.
@49 Gepeto, I’m not quite sure I’d call Adolin a bully. Sadeas wasn’t some underdog without any means to protect himself who Adolin decided to kill because he could. Sadeas was a powerful highprince with a grudge who intended to take down Adolin’s family anyway he could despite clear proof that the end of the world is upon them–there’s debate to be had about whether or not Adolin made the right choice, but whether it was, it doesn’t make him a bully.
And I don’t think he’s incapable of accepting the Radiants’ returns–I think he needs time to adjust, but it’s only been a few days since they’ve come out of the woodwork. It makes sense he’s taking some time to adjust, but I think we’re going to see far worse reactions to their return than his awe of Shallan and outright glee that he was right about Kaladin hiding something.
I’m with you that Adolin is worried about his place in the world now, and I think that combined with his immense hatred of Sadeas and general stress about the impending apocalypse is what led him to do the big bad deed–but it doesn’t makes him a bully or show he’s completely incapable of accepting reality. I think it shows that he has some poor coping methods and that, as you have established (quite excellently I might add), Adolin tends to hold it all in and then let it spill out in some unhealthy ways. And I’m hoping that leads to some juicy character development and plotlines. I agree 100 percent that he can’t remain the good, solid, normal guy after this–he can remain a good, solid person, but I think he’s going to have to fight for it (something I think we both agree on). But he’s not a bully.
Just a couple of things to toss into the mix here…
Adolin has not always been at the top of the military rankings, and in fact isn’t necessarily there now. When he was younger, he served two months as a spearman – and I’m betting that included obeying orders from some darkeyed squad leader. From the context, part of the purpose was learning what it’s like to be a common soldier. Renarin, telling Kaladin about it while asking for the opportunity to be part of Bridge Four, says, “When I’m here, I’m not a prince’s son, I’m not a lighteyes. I’m just another soldier.” He goes on to give the example of Adolin being in a spearman squad, implying that those were the conditions he accepted. So, yes, Adolin spends most of his time at almost the top of the social scale, and close to the top of the military scale – but he knows how to take orders when that’s appropriate. In fact, it may be part of what creates the problem with a slave/bridgeman giving him orders; that’s not the way it’s supposed to work.
Re: being broken as a requisite for Knighthood – As has been said many times in the discussions, we may be overemphasizing that aspect in several ways. To the list of reasons already given, I have to add one: not everyone who experiences trauma or stress has an inherent right to become a Knight Radiant. Even if Adolin can be said to be “broken” by any of various stressful events in his life, that’s no guarantee that a spren of the appropriate Order will come to bond him. I would argue that Moash was “broken” by the traumatic death of his grandparents, but no one is demanding that Brandon make him a Knight Radiant. Roshone could be described as being “broken” by his sudden demotion, followed by the violent and unexpected death of his son, but no one expects him to become a Knight Radiant. Laral could be “broken” by the death of her father, the sudden change in her situation, the expectation that she marry Rillir and then Roshone himself – so where are the demands that she become a Knight Radiant? Shallan’s father and brothers (except maybe Helaran) were/are all obviously broken: why did Lin not become a Radiant? Do we expect Balat, Wikkim, and Jushu to all become Radiants in the next book?
We tend to think that Adolin should be a Radiant because we like him, and then we hold up all the rationale to prove that he has a right to it, but it doesn’t really work that way. Whether you’re looking at it from an in-world or literary perspective, there’s just no valid reason to claim that any one character must become a Radiant. In-world, there are a tiny number of spren forming bonds, and a whole lot of people who would qualify in one way or another; how can we claim that this person, rather than that one, deserves to be chosen? As literature, the author has a story he wants to tell, and for that story, it is necessary for certain characters to be Radiants, and others not; how can we claim that this character, rather than that one, has to be written as a Radiant?
sheesania @38 re: bringing religious beliefs into the analysis – Our beliefs inform our thinking. It’s perfectly fine to identify your own perspectives, assumptions, and beliefs as part of your analysis; personally, I’m convinced it makes for a much healthier discussion if we can acknowledge what we believe and how that affects what we think. It also helps to understand where another person is coming from. You have to accept that others will disagree with you, but most of us have figured that out already. As long as we’re diligent to agree or disagree with ideas, interpretations, and opinions, without personal attacks or derogation of those with whom we disagree, it actually adds a lot to the discussion. And I will come down HARD on anyone who uses an ad hominem argument, becomes abusive of another person for their honestly held beliefs, or launches vitriolic attacks on someone else’s religion. We’re here to discuss the books and our perspectives on them; we’re not here to debate over RL religion or politics.
Caveat: it pays to be careful in making assumptions about someone else’s beliefs; just because someone identifies themselves as “Christian” or “Catholic” or “Mormon” or … whatever, unless you thoroughly understand their orthodoxy through personal experience and/or research & study, you might not understand it as well as you think you do.
Gepeto @45 – I enjoyed reading your analysis, and agree that (with only the books to work from) it’s a plausible theory. However… Brandon has already said that Adolin’s past isn’t a story that needs to be told. I can’t quickly find the WoB about it, so I can’t give his exact wording, but IIRC he indicated that Adolin’s backstory just isn’t all that exciting. I interpret this to mean that, while losing his mother was certainly sad and difficult (as it would be for any child), Adolin was able to deal with it in a healthy way. We don’t know how she died, but given what little has been said, my best guess is that she became ill and died. It does happen, after all, and children don’t always grow up into neurotic adults if they lose a parent at a young age. As for his failed courtships, while I agree that he has repeatedly destroyed the relationships without necessarily realizing what he was doing, I don’t believe it necessarily indicates a deep, hidden psychosis.
@59 Gepeto, re: Tien – I agree that we shouldn’t just compare the circumstances of trauma to determine what was more painful or impactful. My main point was that Brandon Sanderson is not being unreasonable if he treats the death of Kaladin’s sibling differently from that of Adolin’s parent, because while they were both deaths of close loved ones, they – among other differences – probably happened in quite different circumstances. You point out another, even more significant factor – people will react very differently to the same kinds of difficult experiences. At any rate, I think I understand what you mean about Shhh’s death shaping Adolin, and agree that it could very well be having a large impact on his life.
@60 Wetlanderw: I should clarify that if I do share my thoughts about religion and the structure of the KR, I will not be trying to make any statements about what Brandon Sanderson believes or what he’s trying to show with the KR. I would primarily be describing connections I see between the KR and elements of my beliefs. Since Sanderson and I come from related religious traditions, it is possible that those same beliefs are informing his writing, but I certainly couldn’t say definitively. The main purpose would be to point out parallels that may be interesting for people who (like me) are curious about religion, philosophy, and how they may be manifested in worldbuilding and magic systems. However, if nobody is particularly interested, I will happily avoid that potential minefield and save my thoughts for other forums.
Re: Adolin’s failed courtships and what deeper problems they may indicate: One thing I was going to mention about Gepeto’s analysis is that Dalinar’s slow estrangement from Alethi society after Gavilar’s death could also be a factor in Adolin’s difficulties with close relationships. (With his mother’s death being another potential factor.) Other lighteyes may be more cool towards Adolin, and he may sense the dangers in forming close relationships in other factions that his father is likely to alienate. We know how loyal Adolin is to Dalinar; Adolin could partly be hesitating to align himself with other groups that may turn against his father. However, IIRC this friction between Dalinar and the other highprinces wasn’t really happening until TWoK, in which case it couldn’t have affected all the failed courtships before then. Thoughts?
I agree with Alice and sheesania in their response to Gepeto’s interesting analysis of Adolin’s character. Fear of commitment to marriage, if that’s what it was in Adolin’s case, need not bespeak a fear of loss or abandonment. It’s may be a fear of loss of control over one’s life, or some other insecurity – as opposed to having experienced a traumatic earlier loss. His attitude when dating is not appropriate for someone attempting a serious relationship with a woman. Even with Shallan, for whom he has a genuine interest, he reverts to a familiar pattern of turning his head to peer at the backside of a serving woman. Why would a woman want to pursue a relationship with someone who may not maintain loyalty after marriage? On the other hand, Adolin may suspect his various dates of being interested in him only because of his powerful position as heir to Dalinar and possibly the throne. Shallan may have had similar motives initially, but she is not afraid to speak and act unconventionally. In other words, to show her real personality, rather than maintaining some artificial persona for courtship purposes.
I have mentioned my thoughts on Sadeas previously, but would like to share them now that sheesania is with us. Sadeas is undoubtedly a bad actor whose killing is not, by itself, tragic. However, Sanderson in common with other good writers, doesn’t do stereotypical characters. Szeth is strongly conflicted when he kills, and Sadeas mourns the ostensible death of his old friend, the Blackthorn, which he has engineered. In similar vein, he appears to have an emotional connection to Adolin despite his betrayal of him, his father, and their army. I note that he persists in informing the young man of his oppositional goals and plans despite the animosity and quick anger of the youth. He appears to see in Adolin a reflection of the Blackthorn of old. It’s almost as if educating Adolin in the ways of the Alethi world was a parental responsibility that Dalinar had neglected in his new-found code of conduct. It should also be remembered that Sadeas has no children of his own. His killing at the hands of his adopted ‘son’ is somewhat akin to Shallan killing her father to save her family. She may even tell him that part of her traumatic history should he show sadness and bitter regret at his violent act.
@59 Gepto
I was wondering if I might have missed something in an Adolin chapter (which happens, I’m often skipping around in my re-reads and might focus a bit on Kaladin and the rest of Bride 4 when I have a choice), but I wondering when has Adolin thought that the blade he has honoring him by accepting to be wielded by him. I’ve never got the feeling that Adolin thought of his Shardblad as anything other than wonders sword that is attuned to him and his mental commands.
Though I will say the best example that I think we have how Adolin can’t stand for bullies is actually back in WoK when he saves that woman in Sadeas’ camp. He drops a meeting with someone who can only assume to be important and reschedules things to make sure this woman can safely exist the camp after making sure she’s alright.
@60 Wetlandernw
For me I kinda am giving the side eye to any character who currently is holding a dead Shardblade as a someone who can revive their Blade and become something akin to a proto-KR. This includes Moash for all that I don’t like him. But you bring up a good point in that my liking of Adolin as a character makes me more inclined to want to see him become a KR than a character like Moash.
@61 sheesania
I would interested in hearing your thoughts about the connections that you see between the Knight Radiant philosophy as we have seen from the books and your own beliefs. Not being of a Christian faith I can only assume that you would see things that I would gloss over and vice versa. I have an amateur interest in this subject. I haven’t done any specific study into religion or philosophy but it is something I find interesting when I come across it.
@62 STBLST
In a not very good defense of Adolin. He didn’t know that he wanted to make things work with Shallan when he was being distracted by the serving woman’s fine backside. Once he started really wanting it to work with Shallan it’s pointed out that he didn’t get distracted again. It’s also kinda cute how because Adolin knows that this an issue that has tanked his relationships in the past he now goes out of his way to make sure Shallan has nothing to worry about. For example when he’s sure to tell Shallan that he’s using a male ardent for the text message conversation that they share while he’s doing his sit in protest of Kaladin’s unfair treatment.
While I think Adolin says he’s surprised that his relationships don’t work out, I don’t think it’s much of a shock to him really. I mean come on, it’s implied that while he was courting one girl he put the moves on her younger sister. Seriously did he think that courtship was going to last. Not to mention that the one date we see him go on back in WoK he pays no attention to person he suppose to walking out with at all and makes no move to include her in his real reason for going to the leathersmiths or the when he goes to talk to that ardent. He wasn’t making an effort before and it showed. He makes an effort with Shallan and actually ends up telling her the reason behind things. Something that we haven’t seen him do or heard of him doing with anyone else.
He probably doesn’t need worry about asking Kaladin for advice because he’s doing fine with Shallan so far and it’s very clear they both want this relationship to work. They want to keep each other. Which just makes them adorable.
@63:
I appreciate what you’ve done for me. I know you’d do it for anyone who held you, but I still appreciate it.
Gepeto @64 – *sigh* I’m done with this particular discussion. I am content to let Brandon tell the story he has in mind, and develop the characters and plots required for that story.You are not content with it because it likely won’t feature your favorite character in the specific role you want to see him obtain. Don’t tell me Brandon lied to you about it, and don’t tell me he’s failing somehow because he’s not doing what you want. His characters. His story. His book. Period.
Just as a reminder, there is a Moderation Policy in place on the site; in it, we ask that everyone keep disagreements civil and based upon ideas and interpretations–in other words, not to make disagreements personal. As deeply held as some opinions might be, overly aggressive and/or personal comments are not in keeping with our policy, so we urge everyone to please keep the ongoing conversation polite, or simply agree to disagree and move on to other topics. Thank you.
Some how this comment got duplicated. Sorry guys.
@65
It’s interesting how people can read the same thing and get different things out of them because I don’t think I got the same thing as what you did when I read that passage the first time. I just took it that Adolin talked to Blade like some people name and talk to their cars. Adolin for sure doesn’t know that the Blade is a sentient being but he does feel like it’s an extension of himself. Which is interesting because he also doesn’t want to name the Blade because of respect for the original owner of the Blade. But still interesting how he calls it and extension of the soul. I think this is most I can discuss about Adolin’s attitude towards his Blade the posts come back some how.
I wonder how old the practice of talking to your Shardblade before a duel is? Is it’s something that comes all the way back form the Knights Radiant or if it’s something that was picked up after they fell? Probably should have brought this up back in chapter 14 when it first appeared but I think that was one of those weeks life got in the way of the re-read.
@65
It’s interesting how people can read the same thing and get different things out of them because I don’t think I got the same thing as what you did when I read that passage the first time. I just took it that Adolin talked to Blade like some people name and talk to their cars. Adolin for sure doesn’t know that the Blade is a sentient being but he does feel like it’s an extension of himself. Which is interesting because he also doesn’t want to name the Blade because of respect for the original owner of the Blade. But still interesting how he calls it and extension of the soul. I think this is most I can discuss about Adolin’s attitude towards his Blade the posts come back some how.
I wonder how old the practice of talking to your Shardblade before a duel is? Is it’s something that comes all the way back form the Knights Radiant or if it’s something that was picked up after they fell? Probably should have brought this up back in chapter 14 when it first appeared but I think that was one of those weeks life got in the way of the re-read.
@62 STBLST: Interesting thoughts on Sadeas. I’ve enjoyed how Sanderson has portrayed his rather twisted loyalties to Dalinar and also Adolin. I always thought that Sadeas’s conversations with Adolin were mostly meant to goad Adolin into doing something foolish, but it’s possible that in a way Sadeas was also hoping to educate Adolin in the proper Alethi way.
@63 kei_rin: I’ll write up my thoughts, then. :)
Finally caught up! I was given WotK three months ago and couldn’t put it down (although I must admit I was initially quite thrown by the strangeness and mystery that was Szeth and his Lashings). These re-reads have been so essential in helping me gain a better understanding of the laws and history of the Cosmere (the Archives are my first Sanderson novels).
Just wanted to say Hi! I do have some burning questions but we’ve not reached othe relevant chapters yet so I’m just going to continue lurking until we have. A word of thanks to Alice and her work!
Just in case you are interested and missed this on Facebook
from Audible
Join us this Thursday, February 4th at 4pm ET for a live Twitter chat with author Brandon Sanderson. Submit your questions on Twitter using #SandersonChat. adbl.co/SandersonChat
@71: I removed the posts myself even if it broke my heart to do so considering how much time I spent writing them. They were creating more irritation than pleasure, on this thread, and my desire to have Adolin morphed into a well fleshed-out satisfying character combined with my constant fear he won’t have been too often guilty of creating conflicts.
I love writing these posts, these were my guilty pleasure. I never cared if others ignored them or if they weren’t interested in them, but some of the reactions I have been getting, in this thread and others, tell me they aren’t welcome here, not in the way they are phrased and since I cannot help but letting my personal bias shine through, I have decided it was best to remove it all.
Being an Adolin’s fan is very difficult. I happen to know several more who think it equally difficult. It is heartbreaking, it is a constant source of disappointment, of fear and of intense frustration combined with a lasting feeling of injustice interlaced with bits of hope dropped here and there. Whether others agree or not as to how justified I am to feel this way, this is not something I can easily change. Despite my best endeavors, these feelings are often seen in some of my posts and they have become a source of irritation for some.
This is unfortunately incompatible with this re-read.
I have no desire to ruin the mood of it nor to create undesired conflicts. I apologize for any I may have created either intentionally or not and I apologize for posts who may have been inappropriate. I wish you all a nice re-read, but I am unsure if I can contribute to it anymore. If I keep at it, all I will achieve is to steer the same conflicts over and over again and divert the conversation from more important topics, again.
For those who may have wanted to read, but couldn’t, the posts and the small essay I deleted, my PM box is always open. I did keep track of them.
Have a nice continuity and keep on discussing.
I wonder what the lighteyes who were watching the the duel and saw Kaladin think about the fact that Moash is the one with the Shardblade and plate? Does it even register to them that Moash isn’t the one who jumped into the ring to fight alongside Adolin? And if it does registrar that the darkeyes who was given the Plate and Blade isn’t the one who “won” it. I wonder what they think of Kaladin because of that.
I kinda wish we actually got to see Moash interacting with with the other lighteyes to see what peoples reactions are.
@72
I’m looking forward to it. :)
@72, 62 and others Re: Sadeas
I haven’t considered that Sadeas would be trying to teach Adolin. Mostly because every time Sadeas talked about trying to “save this kingdom” or “be merciful to Dalinar” etc etc. I always just the feeling that he’s lying to himself so strongly. Especially when we are in his head. I feel that he’s so far gone that he knows that he’s doing the wrong thing but he’s willing to justify it in any way possible so that it comes out to him like doing the right thing. It’s a bit like what Kaladin does when he convinces himself that he has to help kill the king. No it’s not right and it’s only by some mental gymnastics can you make the argument that it’s right. Personally I see the argument that you are making here but I don’t think I buy it.
Sadeas also made an oath to protect Elhokar and he’s now also one of the men planning on killing him. (Elhokar has at least two separate groups trying to kill him. So it’s not paranoia if it’s true, right?) If he has any feelings of mentor-ship/fatherly feelings towards Adolin, I think it’s faked so that he can justify his actions. I also think that it’s probably a bit related to Odium’s touch on him through the Thrill. Just like he plans to kill Dalinar and Elhokar. I think eventually he would have justified having to kill Adolin because the Thrill only works for him when he’s killing and he’s addicted to that.
@73
Welcome Malaysian! Impressed that you decided to start with Stormlight as your first Sanderson novel. Looking forward to seeing your questions later. :)
@74
Huh, that makes me wish I still had a Twitter account. And oh that reminds, a friend got to ask Brandon a question a while back and I had given him a question to ask for me. (Actually I had given him a couple of questions but this one that got asked.)
I asked if the ten fools were also manifestations of the Heralds but just the Heralds after their broken oaths (this was pet theory of mine and I wanted to know if it on the right track).
Brandon said that “The ten fools are only mythological beings. Representing the foibles of mankind, like the seven deadly sins. Each of the Heralds represents on of the ten names of god.”
So yeah my pet theory went nowhere but we got a bit more information on the Heralds.
@73 Malaysian: I’m very curious to see your burning questions if they haven’t been asked yet – goodness knows there have been a lot of questions asked already.
@76 kei_rin: Perhaps Elhokar’s paranoia is justified, but then it’s part of the reason all those people are trying to kill him in the first place. So unjustified paranoia creates justified paranoia? Ha.
Hey Gepeto, have you considered the following:
I think that being a side character can be a strength for a character. Not having everything spilled out black and white on paper creates that mystery, leaves that room for interpretation and discussion. Supporting characters don‘t have to go through the typical motions of becoming a hero. They don‘t need to have the personality characteristics of a good protagonist – being driven, a go-getter, facing challenges, changing in a particular way.
Supports can be sidetracked with other things than the main plot. They can be the voice of dissent or followers instead of leaders. They can be unpredictable, they are not as confined by the story as a whole. Yes, I think that part of what makes Adolin so attractive is only possible because he is not a protagonist.
@kei_rin: So, the key parallel I’m seeing here between the KR and my evangelical brand of Christianity is in how power comes from a combination of law and relationship. Kaladin must follow a certain law (the Ideals), but his magic isn’t purely based on following rules – his relationship with Syl is also involved. Conversely, he has to be on good terms with Syl, but that requires more than just interacting well – he also has to be following the Ideals. Pursuing the relationship means pursuing the Ideals, and pursuing the Ideals means deepening the relationship. Both are necessary for him to use and develop his powers.
In my Christian beliefs, any spiritual power or blessing one may receive also comes from a combination of law (the moral code) and relationship (with God). You don’t just follow a set of laws; that’s legalism. Neither do you just have a comfortable relationship with God without commitment. Rather, you pursue God by following the moral code, and you follow the moral code by pursuing God. If you have it right, the two complement each other and feed into each other, and in the end you have spiritual power. When Kaladin is doing well as a Radiant, his relationship with Syl is healthy and delightful for both parties, he’s living by the Ideals and wants their guidance rather than rebelling against it, and his magic is strong. If I’m doing well in my spiritual life, my relationship with God is vibrant and rich, I’m happy in following my moral code, and I have spiritual sustenance to help me deal with life and make something good out of it. In both cases, law and relationship serve each other, and power comes out of it.
I think the most distinct connection, though, is that both Christianity and the structure of the KR also demonstrate an idea that breaking the law is more than just doing something wrong – it is also breaking a relationship. This is part of why sin is such a big deal in Christian thought. It’s seen as not just an individual making a choice that contradicts a set of rules, but an individual breaking their relationship with God – hurting somebody else and damaging something essential to their life. For Kaladin, we see this connection between broken laws and broken relationships quite distinctly in these chapters as his relationship with Syl unravels because of his defiance of the Ideals. Syl suffers directly because of his choices about the Ideals, and as a result he loses a relationship and powers that are very important to him. In both cases, choosing to follow the law or not is not just a personal decision, but has direct, tangible consequences for relationships. “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 5:23) and you can’t get away from that. For Kaladin, it means Syl dies if he disobeys; in Christian thought, it means either you die or Jesus dies for you. (Well, sort of; I’m simplifying a lot, but the core idea is there.)
The key difference here between the KR and Christianity is, of course, the nature of the being that the relationship is with. I certainly don’t think that I’m following a tiny piece of a god who got himself repeatedly shattered millenia ago, and thus I treat my God somewhat differently than Kaladin treats Syl. I don’t think I run the risk of killing God if I disobey too many commands, or that his intelligence relies on me. (You could probably try to spin theories here about the repeated pattern of the weak God in Sanderson’s books and what implications that may have for his worldview, but I’m not going to go there.) The powers gained are also different, of course: I, unfortunately, can’t expect to be able to fly and walk on walls no matter how good my spiritual life is. And in the end, the final arbitrator of the power is different. Ultimately, Kaladin must follow the Ideals, and if he’s not then Syl can’t do much about it; law trumps relationship. In Christianity, though, the highest goal is to follow God, and there is a great deal of mercy and forgiveness extended to people who mess up with the law part; relationship trumps law. (Though different Christian traditions will have different degrees of emphasis on law or relationship. Fundamentalist traditions would tend to see law as more important, while liberal traditions tend to emphasize relationship.)
In the end, though, I think you could see the structure of the Nahel bond as a potent metaphor for the close ties of law, relationship, and supernatural power, and especially for the consequences of breaking law. It’s possible that Christian ideas about this were influencing Brandon Sanderson as he constructed it, since as I mentioned earlier he comes from a closely related tradition and shares a large portion of scripture with me. But I definitely can’t say for certain. At any rate, I found the parallels interesting, and it was nice to see such a well-written illustration of a principle I believe.
sheesania @79 – Nicely done! I have a theory that the best stories are the ones that reflect Truth. But that’s another essay, and I should be writing other things tonight. :)
@79 Sheesania
Wow, this was very nice wall of text and very informative as well. I, like you, would hesitate at discussing how much of this was intentionally thought of by Sanderson and what is based on his own religion but the parallels to how people interact with religion are definitely there. Which makes sense since the magic system is the religion for within the books, even if he isn’t basing the interaction on his own religion in order to make it something that a reader would inherently believe it would need to have aspects of that people would recognize. Either unconsciously or consciously.
I feel like a lot of our discussion about what is happening when Kaladin is losing his powers on Tor, centers on Kaladin himself but you bring up a good point in here in that it’s also about how Kaladin and Syl’s relationship is damaged by Kaladin not doing what he knows to be right and in fact actively doing something that he knows is wrong while trying to justify it in a way that makes seem like he’s couldn’t be hurting Syl by doing what he wants to.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this topic. :)
I can’t claim that sheesania wasn’t encouraged to overtly connect her religious beliefs with Sanderson’s story telling. I would not wish this forum, however, to become one in which the story becomes a vehicle for expounding Christian – much less, Mormon theology. In truth, the issue of morality, ethics, and relationship with a deity is something common to various religions – at least those which focus on deeds as well as beliefs. It does not serve this discussion forum well, I believe, to take a ‘parochial’ view of religion. Besides, Sanderson’s cosmere has important differences with the religion that I believe he professes. His fictional deities aren’t all wise, good, and powerful. Some are evil. Nor are they eternal. We have encountered various deity shards such as Preservation, Ruin, and Vin in the Mistborn series who died. In the SA series thus far, Honor, who is called almighty, has been killed, in addition to some other deity victims of Odium. The nature of the original cosmic entity Adonalsium has not been revealed nor the cause of ‘his’ or ‘its’ shattering. So, I would caution against putting to much stock into Brandon’s religious beliefs as a source of insight into his characters and the cosmere. Certainly, the role of Syl and her interaction with Kaladin is a model of the role that morality and ethics should play in our lives – as expounded by various religions. But Syl, whose sentience and higher function in the world is dependent on Kaladin’s behavior, is neither god nor angel of conventional theology.
STBLST @82 – All true. However, it is always interesting to draw parallels between RL things as we understand them and things we observe in a story. Sometimes the exercise will reveal the flaws in the parallel, and sometimes it will enhance understanding – either of the story, or of RL, or of one another. Any analogy will break down somewhere, and I hope we can all recognize that fact; that doesn’t make the analogy less worth noting for what it does illuminate. And of course, different people will take away different observations, whether from the story or the analogy.
In this particular case, I found the analogy useful in clarifying (at least for those who share sheesania’s beliefs) the interdependence of relationship and Ideal for Kaladin’s case. The two aspects of the bond either form a constructive cycle, or a destructive one, much like the RL analogy.
Don’t worry; this isn’t going to become a forum for Christian apologetics – or any other religion. However, I should hope that a Christian perspective would be as welcomed as a Buddhist, an atheist, an agnostic, or what-have-you. As I said before, our beliefs inform our thinking; there’s absolutely nothing to complain about if someone shares their observations and acknowledges the effect of their worldview on those observations. The only reason for complaint is if someone belittles another person or belief system – and open disagreement is NOT the same as belittling.
It’s only fair to add that Sanderson says things like this:
He’s also said that, of course, his own beliefs shape his thinking, and to some extent that is reflected in his stories. Knowing that he deliberately includes religion in his worldbuilding, both for good and for ill, it seems to me that considering religious implications and parallels in light of real-world beliefs is entirely appropriate. IMO, it’s complete foolishness to try to pretend that there’s any subject where your beliefs don’t affect your view of the subject; we’re better off to acknowledge it, and not allow ourselves to tacitly assume that we all agree.
@@@@@80, 81: I’m glad you enjoyed it!
@@@@@ kei_rin: I would hesitate to equate magic system with religion (for reasons that probably aren’t appropriate to discuss here), but I would agree that both involve principles about the nature of things; how the world works, what truth is. Especially for as ideologically based a magic system as the KR’s. So you’ve got a good point that both would tend to include parallels to RL religions/worldviews. (Particularly since Sanderson generally likes to write fantasy worlds that aren’t too alien in worldview areas; he’s creative, but he wants to make sure that we can really empathize with the characters.)
@@@@@82 STBLST: I by no means desire to derail the conversation to theologize about my religion or any other :) I’m sorry that it bothered you.
I would certainly agree with the differences you point out between Sanderson’s beliefs and the cosmology of his Cosmere. There are multitudinous ways in which Surgebinding and the Cosmere as a whole contradicts Mormon beliefs and Christian beliefs. However, I prefer to be positive when possible and see parallels rather than just focusing on all the ways the worldviews diverge.
I also agree with Alice that I would love to hear thoughts on connections to religion from people of other faiths. I’ve done a lot of study of different religions and worldviews and I find this stuff fascinating; I was initially compelled to mention the connections I saw since I thought there might be others like me who would enjoy it. I can really only speak for my religion, so in a forum like this I would avoid trying to say things about other belief systems. But I would definitely be open to hearing them.
And by the way, if anybody is interested in discussing this further than would be appropriate in an open discussion thread – like I said, this stuff is very interesting to me, so feel free to PM me.
Is anyone else seeing my comment be duplicated? I don’t mean for this to happen.
I’m not sure if I should post or just PM Sheesania, so I’m going just post in case others want to chime in and trust in Alice to moderate.
@84
I feel like the magic system and the religion are very intermixed from the books and don’t think they can be cleaved from each other. At least in the case of Vorinism which is the main religion that we deal with and the powers that the Knight Radiant’s show. Vorinism is the dominate (and as far I can tell, the only) religion practiced in Alethkar. We know from Dalinar visions that Alethkar was the historic training ground for the Knights Radiant (our major magic users on Roshar that we’ve seen). I feel like many of the traditions of Vorinism have roots in the old KR orders that were based in Alethkar.
The tradition of lighteyes in rule is one that is backed by the religion of Vorinism and has it’s roots in the tradition of having the Knights Radiant be in charge. (This admittedly could be a case of not knowing which came first the chicken or the egg. Do lighteyes have the right of rule because of Vorinism dictates or is the Vorin mandate for lighteyes to rule there because the Knights Radiants were in charge? Does it make a difference which came first?)
Then there is the fact that one of the failures of Vorinism is the fall of the Knights Radiant. That to me, indicates that the KR were a considered a part of the Vorin religion. Perhaps even a major part of Vorinism.
This of course is just cultural and might not have to do with the magic system itself. I think I understand what you mean when you call the magic system of the Knights Radiant and ideologically based system, but I also happen to think that the ideology of Alethkar and much of Roshar are religiously based.
Then there is the fact that the Taln call Shallan one of Ishar’s Knights. Ishar being one of the Heralds and being that Heralds are somehow connected with the Rosharan Almighty.* This feels like the original source of Vorinism as the original source of the Heralds powers. From what I can gather from what he heard of the histories of Roshar, the Heralds were probably the first Kings of Roshar and as thus meaning that religious power and political power are mixed.
In many of our RL histories (European history, Chinese History, Indian History) there are eras where you can’t separate the religious ideology of the time from the political ideology of the time. I feel very much like Roshar is like this as well. I highly doubt there is a separation between church and state.
And then there is the spren, Syl at least admits straight out to being a bit of god and her relationship with Kaladin is the source of his magical abilities. It’s something that they are doing together. Same can be said to a degree about Shallan and Pattern’s relationship though that relationship progresses different and is founded on Truths/Lies as opposed to the necessity of oaths and living up to an Ideal of Honor. I would guess that each type of spren at the heart of the Knight Radiant order would have a distinct and different relationship with their KR in order to advance their bond. According to Jasnah spren are concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience with the intervention of humans. Which is interesting way of looking at a splinter of god. Tanavast didn’t have to be killed in order to create Syl so it’s not necessary for a god to die or be splintered in order to create spren. I’m basing this off the fact that Syl says she has vague memories of doing what she is doing with Kaladin before. I took this to mean that before the fall of the Radiants, Syl had a Knight that had somehow died and she has vague memories of fighting alongside that person. This is of course all conjecture and extrapolation so it’s also possible that Syl is created from a splinter of a dead Honor. In fact that could be true even if we Syl did have Knight before because we don’t know when Tanavast was killed, I just assumed that it was after the fall of the KR and before the Hierocracy, though I don’t have anything concrete from the books to back up my thoughts about when Tanavast/Honor died.
I hope some of these rambling made sense, it a little late over here and I probably didn’t organize my thoughts as well as I could have.
*Each Herald being a representation of one of the ten names of god is fascinating to me because I don’t think Sanderson means Adonalsium here (we would be looking for the number 16 in that case) but I’m not sure he means Tanavast either. He might mean Tanavast as he’s the one that is considered the Almighty by Vorin standards, but I think the Almighty is actually supposed to be Honor and Cultivation together. Which I’m basing almost entirely on the picture of the double eye and knight radiant orders. It seems like half the orders fall under Honor’s prevue and half under Cultivation.
I’m not sure if I should post or just PM Sheesania, so I’m going just post in case others want to chime in and trust in Alice to moderate.
@84
I feel like the magic system and the religion are very intermixed from the books and don’t think they can be cleaved from each other. At least in the case of Vorinism which is the main religion that we deal with and the powers that the Knight Radiant’s show. Vorinism is the dominate (and as far I can tell, the only) religion practiced in Alethkar. We know from Dalinar visions that Alethkar was the historic training ground for the Knights Radiant (our major magic users on Roshar that we’ve seen). I feel like many of the traditions of Vorinism have roots in the old KR orders that were based in Alethkar.
The tradition of lighteyes in rule is one that is backed by the religion of Vorinism and has it’s roots in the tradition of having the Knights Radiant be in charge. (This admittedly could be a case of not knowing which came first the chicken or the egg. Do lighteyes have the right of rule because of Vorinism dictates or is the Vorin mandate for lighteyes to rule there because the Knights Radiants were in charge? Does it make a difference which came first?)
Then there is the fact that one of the failures of Vorinism is the fall of the Knights Radiant. That to me, indicates that the KR were a considered a part of the Vorin religion. Perhaps even a major part of Vorinism.
This of course is just cultural and might not have to do with the magic system itself. I think I understand what you mean when you call the magic system of the Knights Radiant and ideologically based system, but I also happen to think that the ideology of Alethkar and much of Roshar are religiously based.
Then there is the fact that the Taln call Shallan one of Ishar’s Knights. Ishar being one of the Heralds and being that Heralds are somehow connected with the Rosharan Almighty.* This feels like the original source of Vorinism as the original source of the Heralds powers. From what I can gather from what he heard of the histories of Roshar, the Heralds were probably the first Kings of Roshar and as thus meaning that religious power and political power are mixed.
In many of our RL histories (European history, Chinese History, Indian History) there are eras where you can’t separate the religious ideology of the time from the political ideology of the time. I feel very much like Roshar is like this as well. I highly doubt there is a separation between church and state.
And then there is the spren, Syl at least admits straight out to being a bit of god and her relationship with Kaladin is the source of his magical abilities. It’s something that they are doing together. Same can be said to a degree about Shallan and Pattern’s relationship though that relationship progresses different and is founded on Truths/Lies as opposed to the necessity of oaths and living up to an Ideal of Honor. I would guess that each type of spren at the heart of the Knight Radiant order would have a distinct and different relationship with their KR in order to advance their bond. According to Jasnah spren are concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience with the intervention of humans. Which is interesting way of looking at a splinter of god. Tanavast didn’t have to be killed in order to create Syl so it’s not necessary for a god to die or be splintered in order to create spren. I’m basing this off the fact that Syl says she has vague memories of doing what she is doing with Kaladin before. I took this to mean that before the fall of the Radiants, Syl had a Knight that had somehow died and she has vague memories of fighting alongside that person. This is of course all conjecture and extrapolation so it’s also possible that Syl is created from a splinter of a dead Honor. In fact that could be true even if we Syl did have Knight before because we don’t know when Tanavast was killed, I just assumed that it was after the fall of the KR and before the Hierocracy, though I don’t have anything concrete from the books to back up my thoughts about when Tanavast/Honor died.
I hope some of these rambling made sense, it a little late over here and I probably didn’t organize my thoughts as well as I could have.
*Each Herald being a representation of one of the ten names of god is fascinating to me because I don’t think Sanderson means Adonalsium here (we would be looking for the number 16 in that case) but I’m not sure he means Tanavast either. He might mean Tanavast as he’s the one that is considered the Almighty by Vorin standards, but I think the Almighty is actually supposed to be Honor and Cultivation together. Which I’m basing almost entirely on the picture of the double eye and knight radiant orders. It seems like half the orders fall under Honor’s prevue and half under Cultivation.
sheesania, sorry if I gave the impression of attempting to squelch posts dealing with religious beliefs. I just intended to set out my view that such discussions should be more generally worded and not specific to a particular creed or belief system. As someone who is not a Christian and doesn’t subscribe to its theology, I felt that your contribution veered too much in a more parochial direction and could induce others to join in – after all, most of the readers, I assume, are Christian. I wasn’t offended, just made a bit uncomfortable. Merely stating affiliation or making comments on the books based on your knowledge of religious material is not an issue for me. I had much earlier in the WOK reread attempted to find allusions to biblical names and Hebrew words in the book. I thought that this might be a contribution since I imagined that very few participants in the Reread had my knowledge of biblical Hebrew or such familiarity with its content.
Okay, thanks for clarifying; sorry again to make you uncomfortable. I do think that more general observations, not as tied to my particular belief system or experience, would have been a better contribution. But I didn’t feel I had enough knowledge of such principles in other religions to comfortably make general statements. To be intellectually responsible, I thought I had to either comment on my specific beliefs or not comment at all. Knowing that some people may feel uncomfortable with such a particular focus, I’ll be able to be more careful in the future if another situation like this comes up, whether on Tor.com or elsewhere. So thanks for explaining.
FWIW, I personally find a lot of value in knowing which particular belief system someone is using at times. However, I do think this particular kind of reflection is best suited to exactly times like this: when we’ve discussed the basics of the chapter, and we’re meandering off into related thoughts. :) I wouldn’t attempt to even set guidelines for it, but it’s something I’ve really enjoyed on many rereads: we tend to spend the first day or three talking about the specifics of the chapter and its direct connections with other books/chapters; then, after a few days, we start bringing in loosely-related ruminations triggered by something someone said somewhere along the line. I really enjoy those – and I think those are the times and conversations best suited to overtly belief-oriented comparisons, contrasts, and questions. JMO.
ETA: Of course, I reserve the right to bring in my own values during the original post… but that’s part of why they pay me the big bucks. I get the privilege of setting myself up as the first target. ;)
@86 kei_rin: I’m not sure I was being clear when I said I wouldn’t equate magic system and religion. I agree that the two are very closely tied in Roshar, but I wouldn’t say they’re quite the same thing. Vorinism has various doctrines and purposes that are separate from the principles and purposes of the Radiants. Ardents, the caste system, Callings, devotaries – are these all from the Radiants and Surgebinding? Similarly, we’ve seen Radiants that aren’t Vorin (Jasnah, Ym, Lift).
In a more general sense, I would say that magic systems are manifestations of how the world works. They are another element of the world, like natural laws or social dynamics or history or human nature, that religions seek to explain and give meaning to. Religions are frameworks for looking at the world; magic would be a part of the world that’s being looked at. A magic system may provide insight – just as human nature or the natural world may – into the underlying structure of the cosmos, and thus significantly affect how a religion looks at the world. Surgebinding would more than usual because of its strong ideological implications. But magic system and religion are not exactly the same thing.
So yeah, magical, religious, and political power have been very mixed in Roshar, as your nice set of examples indicate. But I wouldn’t say they’re the same, just that they’ve significantly influenced each other.
Re: Did Tanavast need to die to create Splinters? – There is WoB implying that 1) a Shard doesn’t need to be dead to create Splinters 2) Tanavast died after the Recreance. I can find it for you if you want, but at any rate, you’re on the right track. :)
Re: Heralds and the ten names of the Almighty – This is very interesting to me, since it seems that Brandon Sanderson is saying that Vorinism essentially splits up the Almighty into ten different attributes represented by the Heralds. That really echoes the Shattering of Adonalsium into sixteen different Intents. Coincidence?
@90
I see you what you mean. While Vorin religion does have echos of traditions that come from the Knights it is a bit much to connect everything in Vorinism to the KR.
Speaking of reflections of religions, is it just me or do the Pathians, the Religion of Harmony in Mistborn Era 2, remind anyone else of Taoism?