Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Kaladin and Shallan escaped from the chasmfiend by leading it to the corpses where they fell from the bridge, then began the trek back anew, sniping at each other most of the time. This week, we glimpse Teft’s past before we return to a very gloomy Kaladin, an intent Shallan, moments of stunning openness, and the return of the chasmfiend.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 71: Vigil
Point of View: Teft, Kaladin
Setting: Edge of the Warcamp, the Chasms
Symbology: Spears, Ishar, Vedel
IN WHICH Teft, Sigzil, and Renarin sit near the edge of the warcamp, keeping watch for Kaladin; Teft reluctantly but compulsively tells the story of his family, the Envisagers, and his own betrayal of them; Dalinar approaches; though Teft and Sigzil are defensive about what they’re doing, Dalinar merely enjoins them not to skip meals and not to try to wait through the highstorm. While Shallan draws her map, Kaladin chastises himself for getting lost and calls ineffectually for Sylphrena; he ponders his involuntary animosity toward Shallan; Syl’s scream still haunts him; Shallan insists on drawing a picture instead of just sketching a map; when he comments on her accuracy, she admits that she underplayed her memory skills; observation and exploration indicate that the plateaus surrounding them are the mirror image of a group farther north; Kaladin says that the Plains are symmetrical, though he says he saw it in a dream; Shallan recognizes that cymatics may be involved, and realizes that she knows exactly where the Oathgate is; getting this information back to the warcamps becomes even more important than mere survival; she takes the lead, and while Kaladin smiles and jokes with her about their directional skills, he blames himself for failing; they walk as fast as they can, but Shallan has to keep stopping to update her map so they don’t get off track again; now within range of Dalinar’s scouts, Kaladin periodically shouts for help; he also calls for Syl, but there is no response, and he can’t feel the Stormlight in his sphere; as they continue, Kaladin claims that it’s all his fault; Shallan tries to be optimistic, but Kaladin is gloomy; Shallan reveals her bone-deep understanding of brokenness and crushing guilt; Kaladin finally comprehends that he’s not alone, and though drained, he feels better; Shallan starts a “think-positive” verbal fencing match, but Kaladin isn’t very good at it; they stop again to update the map and shout for the scouts, but this time the answer is the sound of the approaching chasmfiend; they squeeze into a crack where the chasmfiend can’t reach them, but it settles down to wait them out; Shallan is fascinated by its apparent intelligence, but the approaching highstorms means they can’t afford to wait it out; Kaladin prepares to rush out and “distract” it while Shallan escapes the other way; Kaladin acknowledges that Adolin is a good person, and asks her to apologize for him; Shallan asks him to “at least take this”—and summons her Shardblade.
Quote of the Week
“You still think I’m too optimistic, don’t you?” Shallan said.
“It’s not your fault,” Kaladin said. “I’d rather be like you. I’d rather not have lived the life I have. I would that the world was only full of people like you, Shallan Davar.”
“People who don’t understand pain.”
“Oh, all people understand pain,” Kaladin said. “That’s not what I’m talking about. It’s…”
“The sorrow,” Shallan said softly, “of watching a life crumble? Of struggling to grab it and hold on, but feeling hope become stringy sinew and blood beneath your fingers as everything collapses?”
“Yes.”
“The sensation— it’s not sorrow, but something deeper— of being broken. Of being crushed so often, and so hatefully, that emotion becomes something you can only wish for. If only you could cry, because then you’d feel something. Instead, you feel nothing. Just . . . haze and smoke inside. Like you’re already dead.”
He stopped in the chasm.
She turned and looked to him. “The crushing guilt,” she said, “of being powerless. Of wishing they’d hurt you instead of those around you. Of screaming and scrambling and hating as those you love are ruined, popped like a boil. And you have to watch their joy seeping away while you can’t do anything. They break the ones you love, and not you. And you plead. Can’t you just beat me instead?”
“Yes,” he whispered.
Shallan nodded, holding his eyes. “Yes. It would be nice if nobody in the world knew of those things, Kaladin Stormblessed. I agree. With everything I have.”
He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.
Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.
It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.
This scene does it to me every time. I’m sitting here with tears running down my face. Again. You’re not alone, Kaladin. You’re not alone.
Commentary
Storms, this was a long chapter! One of my favorites, but it’s long—and it’s packed full of Stuff We Must Discuss, too! Once again, I’ll have to assign some of the discussion point to the commenters, or this will be a novella in itself. Please—there’s a lot I didn’t even touch, so please bring it up in the comments.
For starters, Teft. He’s out there watching for Kaladin, to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. I can’t help wondering if he’d come completely unglued if Kaladin had died; he seems to have pinned sanity and all on Kaladin’s powers. Then again, given his story of the Envisagers, it makes sense, though it’s hard to say whether knowledge of Radiants returning would make him feel better or worse about having betrayed the Envisagers to the citylord way back when.
I have to wonder if there was a connection between the Envisagers and any of the current secret groups trying to bring back the Heralds/Radiants. They had rather an odd way of going about it—put your life in real mortal danger, in the hopes that you would display superpowers at the last second?—but I can’t think it’s any weirder or stupider than trying to bring back the Voidbringers as a way of forcing the Heralds to intervene.
Back to Kaladin and Shallan, then: Kaladin spends the first chunk of the chapter kicking himself around for failing in all manner of things over which he had no control, in an ironic contrast to the previous chapter where he blamed Shallan for things that were mostly results of his own choices and nothing to do with her. *sigh* Kaladin, dear, I love you very much, but sometimes you can be amazingly contrary.
Moving on, this bit was very interesting, and also raises questions:
…He shouldn’t let her provoke him so. He could hold in the retorts against other, far more annoying lighteyes. Why did he lose control when talking with her?
Should have learned my lesson, he thought as she sketched, her expression growing intense. She’s won every argument so far, hands down.
He leaned against a section of the chasm wall, spear in the crook of his arm, light shining from the spheres tied tightly at its head. He had made invalid assumptions about her, as she had so poignantly noted. Again and again. It was like a part of him frantically wanted to dislike her.
So is that part of an instinctive Windrunner-vs.-Lightweaver attitude reflecting the antagonism of their spren, or is it a psychological reaction to… Adolin’s fiancé? A lighteyed woman? A pretty woman? Or is it something else?
Meanwhile, Shallan is so focused on her scholarship that she’s completely oblivious to Kaladin’s angst-ridden pacing. It’s almost comical; he finally ceases active hostility, and she doesn’t even notice that they’re carrying on an actual conversation. She’s busy trying to solve a puzzle, and she automatically draws him into the process like an extra brain.
The moment where she stops teasing him and goes serious, when she lets him really see how much she does understand what he’s gone through… that has to be one of my very favorite scenes ever. As noted, even after all this time, I cannot read that passage without getting teary, and the effect on Kaladin is beautiful. Just knowing that someone else gets it is enough to change his whole demeanor, and it’s the turning point he’s been needing to reach.
And then the chasmfiend shows up, and things get crowded real fast. The mental image of that huge eye watching them from above? Officially uncomfortable.
Kaladin is wonderful here, and I think it’s the earlier conversation that frees him to do what he does next. As he points out, Shallan has (a) the ability to find her way back, and (b) information Dalinar needs. He, on the other hand, has neither of those—but unlike Shallan, he has something resembling a fighting chance to distract and maybe, maybe even escape from the chasmfiend. So he does what he does at his best: he identifies the plan with the best chance of success, and puts it in place without fear of personal consequences. In the process, he takes a huge step forward: he acknowledges that lighteyed people are, oddly enough, people, and that his attitude toward Adolin was based on prejudice against lighteyes.
I’ve been fighting with how to express this concept for… longer than I care to admit, and it’s nearly 2:00 a.m., and I can’t find a way to do it without someone misinterpreting what I want to say about it. So I’ll just say it.
Kaladin has been in a blue funk for a long time, his thinking twisted by a combination of personality, circumstance, and malice, to the point that despite amazing positive experiences, his negative mental state placed unbearable strain on his Nahel bond. He has created superfluous enmities for himself because he needed someone to blame, while at the same time blaming himself for things he could not have changed. And in one lightning moment, facing the realization that he wasn’t the only one who was broken, but also that there were other ways to deal with it—in that moment, I believe, he let go of his obsessive need for a culprit, and his whole world got brighter. (He’s not fully recovered yet, as we’ll see in a few chapters, but he’s heading up instead of down, finally.) Momentarily free of the bitterness that has colored his outlook, he’s able to accept another human being (in this case, Adolin) on his own merits rather than holding him responsible for every real or imagined wrong done by lighteyes. Whether that changes anything outside himself is debatable—but it changes him, and it’s a beautiful thing to behold.
And then Shallan offers him a Shardblade.
Stormwatch
This is, of course, the same day as the previous chapter, and there are still nine days left in the countdown.
Sprenspotting
The spren are mostly notable by their—or rather, her—absence, as Kaladin continues to worry about Syl and still can’t access Stormlight. One fun little note, though, is that when Kaladin overhears Shallan apparently carrying on a conversation, he begins to suspect something.
Still, Syl had seen several strange spren about.
Yes, indeed.
Ars Arcanum
Despite her best intentions, Shallan just can’t keep her skills hidden—and it’s just as well. In order for her to recognize the reflected image, to trigger Kaladin’s memory of the symmetry of the Plains, to connect that symmetry to Kabsal’s lecture on cymatics, to register the location of Stormseat and the Oathgate… the whole sequence depends on her extraordinary memory and Kaladin’s recognition of the accuracy of her drawings.
Incidentally, in case anyone else was wondering: I couldn’t remember whether Kaladin had seen the symmetry during his flight or during his highstorm vision, so I looked it up. Turns out, it’s both—when he was flying and saw the pattern, he remembered seeing it previously, in a dream. Now you know.
Heraldic Symbolism
Ishar: Pious/Guiding, Priest. I’m going with “guiding” here—as in, Shallan understanding the symmetry of the Plains and the significance of that symmetry, and realizing that it will lead her to the Oathgate they so badly need to find. Vedel: Loving/Healing, Healer. I’m thinking this has to do with the effect of the QOTW conversation on Kaladin—that life suddenly seems brighter, the way Tien used to make it.
Just Sayin’
Kaladin felt like one of the ten fools. Actually, he felt like all of them. Ten times an idiot. But most specifically Eshu, who spoke of things he did not understand in front of those who did.
Heh. Love this line. I would also love to know more about the rest of the ten fools, but I suppose we’ll get there in time.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Kaladin has to risk touching a Blade in order to have a fighting chance to rescue them both from the chasmfiend.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and she had a great time at the signing last night. If you see a young Mistborn on Brandon’s blog or twitter feed, it just might be her daughter.
Ahww… Chapter 71… how I have been waiting for you.
This hit me like a punch when I first read it.
Background: both my parents were raised in abusive households. Both my parents resisted the urge to repeat that abuse. So my sister and I were not abused by either parent. Father is more hands off than a 5 year old might wish, but neither parent ever abused us. I learned about the abuse of their past when I was teenager.
So this line struck me. I love Brandon for this segment.
Not repeating the abuse of the past is possible. Not dropping into darkness because of abuse is possible.
Smiling in spite of darkness and abuse is possible.
Thus, I asked permission (and got it) of Peter and Team Sanderson to create a con ribbon saying: “Smile Anyway.”
It’s my rally cry against abuse. Against repeating any abuse cycle. Against clinging to the darkness created by abuse. And against using abuse as an excuse for your actions.
If you are at JordanCon, ask me for one.
…
I know some use this line as support for the Kaladin / Shallan ship. I would use it as a reason against the ship. What happens if Shallan can’t create the light for Kaladin anymore? Shallan is already being a light for her family. She needs a partner that doesn’t require her to be a light all the time.
I am happy this conversation is the boot to the head Kaladin needed. He needed this boot to the head on so many levels it’s not funny. Yes Kaladin, others know pain and loss too. Yes Kaladin, the world is not blossoms and cake just because a person has light eyes.
More later, but I needed to say these things first.
Mods: That happened to our pictures in our Profile pages? I was going to link my Smile ribbon photo, but couldn’t find it.
Plus, my Braid glyph shows up on my profile, but not when I comment. My old profile image has been showing up for weeks. What is going on?
Edit: Thanks for fixing my image.
@8: On the chapter 70 reread, look at comments 89 & 90. Mmade back-to-back. One has my old braid, one the glyph. I didn’t do anything in between posting those comments.
I’ve been waiting for this chapter to jump back into the rereads. Much of Kaladin’s character arc in this book (more of a sine wave than an arc) annoy me, but this chapter gets it just right.
If only Kal hadn’t screwed everything up shortly after.
Sanderson is fond of letting his protagonists be completely and absolutely wrong.
The QOTW is my favorite moment in Words of Radiance, maybe in the Stormlight Archive so far. This was the book when I really came to love Shallan – the first time I’d ever truly connected with a Sanderson female lead – and that moment sums up what I find so delightful about her: she finds joy even in very difficult circumstances. I admire Kaladin for fighting back against the hardship he’s been subject to, and Dalinar for holding his ground despite mockery, opposition and betrayal, but Shallan’s ability to hold onto joy gives her a power the others don’t have. Even if she doesn’t have control over what’s going on around her, even if she can’t fight back or change anything, she still has her light. That resonates with me. It’s good to see a character whose power and agency is so internal, rather than mostly based on the external practical skills they have. Shallan has plenty of practical skills, but she’s only able to apply them effectively because she has that internal strength – and Sanderson highlights that.
It’s just such a great character moment for Shallan, and for Kaladin, and for their relationship. And of course it’s always fun to see Kaladin get his expectations dramatically upended – it reminds me a tad of when Dalinar trades his Shardblade for the bridgemen in TWoK and Kaladin’s mind is blown.
“Instead, you feel nothing. Just . . . haze and smoke inside. Like you’re already dead.” To me, this quote sums up why Shallan believes she needs to have her mental block about the night of her mother’s death: that it was actually Shallan that killed her mother. For Shallan, the truth would (in her mind) render her an emotional wreck. Shallan shows Pattern this potential self at the end of WoR. It is also interesting that another major protagonist uses the same coping mechanism: Dalinar. Dalinar sought old magic to erase the pain of his wife’s death. As part of the bargain (we do not have the knowledge to know whether this was a result that Dalinar wanted), the name of Dalinar’s deceased wife has been “erased” from his memory. When somebody mentions her name, Dalinar only hears Shshsh.
To me it is not surprising that more than one character has a similar means for copying with a tragedy in their life. As I understand it, subconsciously forgetting a traumatic event is a common coping method in RL.
Re shipping between Kaladin and Shallan. It is important to remember that Kaladin is at most 20 years old. Although a lot of stuff has happened to him in his life and he sometimes acts as a grizzled army veteran, Kaladin is not. It is possible that his new found respect of Shallan is more puppy love than a serious romance.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
This is the chapter that I fell in love all over again with Kaladin. Don’t get me wrong, Adolin will always be my number one. And Kaladin is not even a close second. But, this chapter shows Kaladin had hit rock bottom and on his way up. This is also the chapter that I knew that Kaladin will finally make the right decision regarding Elhokar even before I reached that chapter on my first read.
@@@@@ Alice – Regarding this:
The romance junkie part of me sees this as Brandon writing rom-com. :-) After reading Bands of Mourning, I actually took back what I said that Brandon cannot write romance. He can and he does it on his own style which is truly refreshing and novel for me, at least. :-)
Many will disagree, but like what I said, I’m a romantic at heart. :-)
I see the glyph.
I also think that comparing Shallan to Tien is not a sign of romantic attraction. It is more a hint of a sibling relationship.
It’s a great chapter, with the (emotional) climax in the “she smiled anyway” section”.
It might not provoke too much discussion tough, because for once, we all agree with each other :)
I want to join the chorus and say that this chapter is also the one that I find the most emotionally powerful.
I have always liked Shallan. She has been my favorite character since she sailed on to the scene in book one. I liked her even though she can be blithely unaware of the negative consequences of her actions and her position. I appreciated her awareness of taking his shoes just because she needed them might not have been right. But here, I think I finally understood why Shallan has such a circumscribed field of awareness. I knew before that it was because of trauma, but here is when I understood it. This is what she can manage. This is what she can improve.
As a bit of a postscript, I want to again thank Alice for wrestling with this difficult and uncomfortable questions that are in the text and that we can bring up in discussion. Alice’s thoughtful response to my post last week got me to respond to a thread a week old. While we might not always agree or always understand each other position, this message board really encourages practicing the principle of intellectual charity. Which as a new commenter makes me feel much more comfortable than otherwise.
So I’ve been largely avoiding the comment section the last few weeks as all the group guilt crap made me angry. I’ll just put my comment on all of it here as it does relate to this chapter. I’ll start by saying Sanderson is a master of symbolism. The guiding priest here is Shallan guiding to an epic truth. One that people here will likely disagree with but one that is central to this part of the series. People are people and are to be judged as individuals. NOT as members of a class. In fact the idea that “classes” exist the idea of group mentality group guilt is a fallacy. The only thing I can have guilt for is things I do as an individual. I have no guilt on things other people do or things my ancestors might or might not (as deciding who is and who isn’t my ancestor quickly becomes problamatic if you go back far enough) have done. THIS along with the idea that everyone has pain and there are multiple ways of dealing with it is what he has to learn.
I know this site isn’t the most friendly toward religion but the other aspect of this I can’t help but see through a religious lens. Say what you will about the Mormons (and I can say a lot as a good bit of what the believe I do not) but they have a good handle on the fact that one of the central aspects of Christianity is recognizing that people are generally selfish/evil and will do evil things but loving them anyway. The real point of the crucifixion/resurrection was God having evil done to him but loving us anyway as an object lesson in this being the way to live. This doesn’t mean accepting the evil and not trying to change it – but not letting it lead you to hate. This is of course incredibly difficult. But the correct path always is.
When Kaladin sees both of these facts and realizes them he has earned the right to a shardblade and so is given one. BY THE PERSON HE JUDGED WHO NEVER JUDGED HIM. If this is not a metaphor for God giving even after being judged and hated through Christ …
I will end by saying know many of you will not agree with the themes here, and that is ok. Class consciousness and group guilt is a large part of the left mindset. Having gone to the University of North Carolina law school boy do I understand that. I do hope though you can see the skill and quality of the writing here. The themes are expertly presented and built up and it is exciting. I mean I doubt any of us were able to stop reading after he was handed a shardblade – I mean I would have included a “and all the readers when OH SHIT and couldn’t put down the book” to the summary. That many of us not on the left side of the spectrum don’t feel like this is happening is the reason behind some recentish past events.
I mean I read and love Ursula Le Quin. She writes beautifully and sets up her themes and symbolism beautifuly. Often though I think she is completely wrong. Dispossed for example I don’t consider a utopia at all. The left hand of darkness is also wonderfully written but I have a couple (not nearly as many as with Dispossed) issues (I would have to reread it to remember what they were). I generally align more with the “golden age” of sci-fi represented by Asimov and Robert Heinlein she is responding to. This doesn’t stop me though from recognizing the skill and beauty of her works. That skill and beauty certainly means they should be published. All I am asking is the same respect for books that take an alternate viewpoint.
Luke @10 – You’re welcome, and I hope I answered your question. I had to rewrite it a couple of times, or it would have been a multi-thousand-word essay; there’s so much to say about Alethi culture – good, bad, and indifferent – and I could spend hours talking about it. :) Don’t be afraid to ask the hard questions. Though I don’t guarantee I’ll always be able to spend the time answering, I’ll try.
dwcole @11 – While I’d be careful of assuming that Brandon intended the same metaphor you or I might see, it is indeed a powerful parallel, and one I enjoy tremendously.
I had to laugh at this one:
because that’s exactly what happened to me, and why I was still writing at 2:00 a.m. I started reading through the chapter to write the recap, and finally stopped at the end of Part 4. So instead of having this finished on Tuesday night as intended, I was finishing after the signing last night. (Yesterday was primarily dedicated to finishing my daughter’s new mistcloak; I’ll post a picture eventually.) Yeah, that’s not a place you just close the book and walk away!
And the next chapters are beautiful in their own ways. This is where Kaladin begins to accord other people the same individualized treatment he demands, and it makes all the previous chapters worth the aggravation.
@several – Thanks for bringing up the way this showcases Shallan’s own limits and coping mechanisms. Kaladin has been the “tortured character” for a while, and I let myself focus on the resolution of his issues – but it brilliantly explains so much about Shallan herself. When we first read the book, we didn’t know at this point that Shallan had killed her mother. Some of us suspected it, but (unless my mind has a big hole in it) that’s not confirmed until the end of the book. So this is a case of the scene’s meaning expanding when you reread it.
Also, I’m sad that I didn’t find a way to use this bit:
I needed to end the QOTW with her smile and his reaction, but “Helps if you’re crazy” makes me giggle and weep at the same time. It’s funny, but at the same time, it’s all too true. Her brothers each had their own, more visible, variety of neurosis, but Shallan’s was hidden from everyone but (maybe) her father. She created a mental disability to keep from facing knowledge that would have destroyed her.
@11 dwcole
It’s not about “group consciousness” or “group guilt”. It’s about accepting individual responsibility for the choices we make, including the choice to benefit at the expense of other people. Shallan isn’t guilty of anything because she was born as a lighteyes, and no one is saying that she is. The only choices she’s responsible for are her own, and Shallan chose to be a slaveowner. She plays the hand that’s dealt to her, the same as everyone else, and she doesn’t get to justify what she does to other people by talking about her own suffering.
Ah, to be a useful kind of crazy…
Thanks for the read Alice – really appreciate your insights every week even though I haven’t had a chance to comment for the longest time. I have actually appreciated Shallan and her journey and Shallan/Adolin alot more still reading your thoughts however I have to be honest I still find her difficult to completely relate to because of the style of humour and the way Brandon writes her (less so here but in WoK it was a real trial at times). I do enjoy aspects of the Chasms scenes though particularly Kal and Shallan’s combining wits, skills and damned heart wrenching loyalty that two human beings in a life threatening situation can have towards each other. I do love those situations in fiction despite being cruel to put our beloved characters through them. Some of the visuals upcoming are so atmospheric as well, starting with being in that rock fissure and seeing the enormous eye. I actually had a nightmare influenced by it, it was that powerful. In fact the Shattered Plains as a whole are such an amazing and unusual location I will miss them.
Back to the Read, Im a little sad that most if not all people in this read are so anti Shallan/Kal. I’d expect some but from what I’ve read it seems pretty much everyone is absolutely convinced its definitely not romantic when to me it seems blatantly obvious it is leaning that way especially with the fondness/envy their relationship ends on in this book. Of course I value the power of friendship and acknowledge it doesn’t have to go that way and that Shallan is obviously smitten with Adolin but it just seems strange how much people dislike the possibility. In fact one of the shippiest moments ‘she smiled anyway’ doesn’t get put under a Shipping Wars title. Anyhoo, Im not gripping – everyone has a right to feel what they want to and Im not a fan of ship wars or anything silly like that but perhaps I just be the irritating Hoid of the comments and pop up unannounced saying I like Kal/Shallan and it came particularly from these chapters. Maybe Im just a fan of that dynamic and think Kal could do with some romance in his life to stop him from being so brooding. Either way for me at least it creates nice tension. However each to their own and thank you Alice for pointing out just how genuine Adolin is (I had previously thought he was a brat most of the time) and how sweet Shallan/Adolin are.
An a separate note I wanted to share that I managed to gatecrash the Gollancz Fest last Oct in London and actually got to meet Brandon and other great writers which I was really over the moon about. He is a really lovely guy. It was great to ask him about my ideas of multimedia storytelling for my course and tell him about first listening to Writing Excuses whilst backpacking in Japan of all places. But one thing I did ask that might be of interest to you guys is ‘Are there any more female Shardholders and will we see them soon?” I wanted to see some Goddess power! He explained that you have kinda seen/heard of at least one but she was dead before the story started aka Aona/Devotion. However he did say you would be seeing more from Cultivation in the next book!!! He didn’t say how though. Anyways, just thought I would leave that there….
First I’ll join in the chorus of people saying this is a great chapter – definitely one of my favorites if not my favorite, and the reason why I like the chasm sequence so much.
I don’t want to go to much into why: suffice it to say it’s just a great moment of two characters finally letting down their walls and realizing each other a little, which helps one of them with his depression. Any political or racial message people want out of it, go wild.
I feel like that part where Kaladin reflects on something making him feel antagonistic toward Shallan, even more so than usual, probably relates on some level to him being a Windrunner and Shallan a Lightweaver. It’s just very rare of Sanderson to have a character note something like that without it having some in-world reasoning, and the fact it could be easily explained by Kaladin’s racism just makes it MORE suspicious imo.
(Goes back to being a feels-ball over this chapter and having finished Calamity).
dwcole @11. I can accept that somebody might have an opinion that is different from me. Lord knows that I have many opinions that differ from people I know. What I cannot accept, is gross generalizations. IMO, your statement regarding what people on the left believe goes too far. Unless you have talked to everybody on the left, then you cannot make that statement. You may feel that there is too much “Class consciousness and group guilt” in society. But it is incorrect (and this is certainly not the proper forum for such a discussion) to say that is a hallmark of a particular group of people.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@11, DWCole:
I do not want to speak for others who may have commented in the past couple of weeks, but I do not read people’s critiques of Vorin culture and political institutions as “group guilt.” (“Group guilt” in my mind is way too similar to the idea of “blood guilt,” which makes me feel very uncomfortable.) Rather, I see a lot of system critique.
Power relations buttressed by cultural practices have a tendency to accrete over time. Their development is not always to the benefit of all who participate (willingly or otherwise.) Individuals who participate within these institutions have a responsibility vis-a-vis their own engagement in these institutions and the ways in which they perpetuate these institutions over time. When it comes to Vorin culture or in others, it seems important to me that those within those cultures think about how their institutions affect the outcomes of others and who those with power maintain it.
This opinion may be read as being on the “left” but my intent is more about encouraging moral reflection and responsibility which I don’t believe is the sole province of any political leaning.
“Had them all executed in the end. Never did understand that.” – Citylord perhaps influenced by the Skybreakers?
Teft and Sigzil are perhaps the two most interesting characters that I fear we will never know much about. I mean Sig’s mentor was freakin Hoid for cryin out loud!
Kaladin frantically wants to dislike Shallan because it will keep his worldview intact. He’s seen the evidence of good lighteyes before, Shallan included, but she additionally makes him confront his prejudices. She doesn’t give him a pass for being rude. She calls him out on it. People don’t often like being humbled. Plus he’s got the hots for her; which also destroys his worldview.
“‘You can’t blame yourself for everything, right?’ He walked in silence” Kaladin will not fully develop as a windrunner until he accepts that he can’t always blame himself for his charges failures. Leaders take responsibility for mistakes sure, but they learn and move on. They don’t let it destroy their spirit.
Who invited Rayse to the Adonalsium splitting party?
Airsicklowlander @@@@@ 19 – I’m debating with myself about the post on The Letter. Has it been long enough that I can assume M:SH is safe to discuss? Because there’s stuff there that really relates to the content of the letter…
@15: The Kaladin/Shallan ship receives the most support about anywhere within the fandom. This re-read is about the only place where the Adolin/Shallan ship receives love and approval in large quantity, which is probably why some of us tend to sound defensive. There several cons to the Kaladin/Shallan ship…
Some think it too cliche: the Hate/Love trope has been over-used in the media to the point where the second two characters starts screaming at each other, people expect them to fall in love. Kaladin/Shallan is thus horribly predictable while Adolin/Shallan appears fresher as it isn’t a too common ship.
Other doesn’t like the possibility of the two main protagonists to end up being an item.
Or some wishes friendship was more common into story, disapproving the need for every single male/female characters to be paired.
Now these only are a few examples as to why some readers aren’t enthralled by the Kaladin/Shallan ship. None of them means anything, but it explained some of the reactions you have seen.
This being said I wouldn’t say Kaladin/Shallan is obvious. It is clear the author intended for us to think the story may go this way, but his end game could be about anything.
I personally think Kaladin needs to find his own happiness if he is to enter into a romantic relationship: he can’t place the burden of his happiness onto his partner. It wouldn’t be fair.
This chapter is such a wonderful ride. So many favorite parts. Along with all the ones that we’ve brought up already. Kaladin calling for Syl made my heart break a little. I also loved tihs exchange:
He smiled wryly. “Is it really that hard for you to let me win one single argument?”
“Yes!” she said.
Also Kaladin then admiting that he actually doesn’t dislike Adolin. And then the Shardblade! How did Sanderson fit so much awesome in one chapter.
@20
Alice, when would you want to have the discussion about the Letter? Because think it would be fun to talk about it. While it might be a little close to when M:SH came out, my personal feeling is that you might run into spoilers for the Cosmere if your on the re-read and that just the risk of being in fandom.
@19
I really hope Sanderson writes some short stories with Sigzil and Hoid and about that mentorship! How much do you know Sigzil?! How did you meet Hoid? Why did he take you one as an apprentice? So many questions!!
@15
It’s not that I don’t see the Shallan/Kaladin hints of romance. I just like the Adolin/Shallan pairing more and am rooting for that one. I do agree that Kaladin could do with some romance but I don’t think it needs to be Shallan. Personally I’m pulling for Shallan and Kaladin to become Epic Knight Radiant Bros and to have a super good friendship that both very deep and very platonic while Shallan has her romantic relationship with Adolin.
Though like sheiglagh, my faith in Sanderson as a writer of romances has gone up since Bands of Morning. Before his romances were good but missing something. But he totally hit it with BoM, IMO. So, if he does decide to go Kaladin/Shallan, I feel like I’ll like the pairing by the time they actually do get together if it happens. I’m willing to be convinced.
@20: I agree with kei_rin above, it’s still a bit soon but I think for the website we’d be fairly safe – if you want to avoid that kind of spoiler you should know better to be careful about Sanderson content here.
Also, related to Bands of Mourning, it’s interesting to me that it helped sell some readers on Sanderson’s ability to write romance. Not that I can elaborate on why, I’m drawing a blank on any specific reason…my brain is just telling me that for some reason I find that interesting.
This chapter has one of my sister’s favorite parts, too:
Ah, Kaladin. So deadly serious.
And then a little later:
Uh, yeah, actually.
@1 Braid_Tug: As a Kaladin/Shallan shipper who has used that very argument, I would agree with you that it could be a problem if Kaladin relied on Shallan to be a light for him all the time. The question is, though, when Shallan is struggling, would Kaladin or Adolin actually support her better? Kaladin may tend to be gloomy and a bit self-absorbed, but he has some understanding of what Shallan has gone through and experience responding to similar situations. Adolin we’ve seen to generally be a kind and empathetic person, but is he going to know what to do with the truth about Shallan’s history, her status as a Radiant, her involvement with the Ghostbloods, her family…? Will those truths bring them together because of his compassion, or draw them apart because they’re so foreign to him? At the moment he’s getting pretty overwhelmed just realizing that she’s a Radiant. He hasn’t yet seen much emotional weakness or neediness in her. So I don’t feel that I can definitely say Adolin would support her better than Kaladin. We don’t have enough information yet.
Also, Shallan being a light may not be a burden on her so much as a character trait that’s natural to express. It may be difficult sometimes, and sometimes she may not have the emotional capacity to maintain it. But perhaps normally it’s just who she is, and so it would be a blessing for her to be able to help people simply through that natural behavior. Maybe an example will make this clearer: I tend to encourage people, particularly my family members. When I’m able to help them this way, it’s very satisfying even if it’s also difficult or stressful, because I’m being myself. I’m not struggling against my natural inclinations in an effort to care for my family, I’m being who I am. I’m getting to see my personality and my concern for my family work in harmony. Now, I’m not saying that Shallan should specifically seek out situations with more “opportunity” to bring joy, or that such situations would make her happier. My point is that if Shallan was in a relationship with someone like Kaladin who needed her light, it would not necessarily be a continual burden on her (even if it was at times). She might be able to bless Kaladin just by being herself, and that is wonderful to experience.
Perhaps Shallan’s burden is not so much bringing joy to other people, but maintaining her façade of being innocent and bright all the time. Kaladin has seen past that façade, and it has only made him more interested in her. Adolin hasn’t seen past the façade yet, and we can’t be sure how he’ll react when he inevitably does. We can make educated guesses, but nevertheless we don’t know yet.
In essence, I think this is a valid argument for Shallan/Adolin. But I don’t think it would be as terrible an obstacle for a Shallan/Kaladin relationship as it may appear.
@7 sheiglagh: For me at least, Sanderson’s books have some of the only romances I’ve come across that I actually enjoy. Bands of Mourning was a great example. (Steris is AWESOME, with a heap of exclamation points.) He does use many of the old tropes, like the opening snarkfest, but ultimately his characters’ relationships are based on understanding, complementary skills and personalities, and trust. They’re rational and character-based, not primarily physical or mushily emotional. (He earns his sentimental bits. :) ) That’s why I trust him to do a good job regardless of how he might choose to pair people off.
@12 Wetlandernw: Shallan’s “helps if you’re crazy” is striking to me, because in some ways she’s making a joke to lighten the conversation and guide it away from all the deep stuff. But on the other hand, she’s genuinely answering his question, and the answer is not funny at all. I wonder if Kaladin will think back to that conversation later and realize more of the dark truth behind her apparently irreverent comment.
@15 Starsaphire: I’m one of the remaining Shallan/Kaladin shippers, and it has been somewhat depressing to see how firmly (and reasonably) convinced people are that Shallan/Adolin is best. Makes me concerned that I’m slipping into irrational fangirl territory if so many thoughtful commentators disagree with me. Anyways, one of the things I like about Shallan and Kaladin’s relationship, actually, is how many of the moments can be interpreted as non-romantic. It goes to show that there’s a genuine connection between them, not just romantic attraction. It’s a good sign IMO if you can imagine two people as friends and not only as lovers!
@23 FenrirMoridin: On BoM, I wonder too why that book’s romance worked for readers when Sanderson’s others didn’t, since the one in BoM didn’t seem especially different from the rest to me. I can think of a bunch of ways it was unique that potentially made the difference, but I couldn’t tell for sure.
sheesania @@@@@ 24 and FenrirMoridin @@@@@ 23 – I can tell you. Please send me a private message and I will explain. :-)
sheiglagh @25 – Or you could post it on the BoM spoiler thread, and then we could all read it. :) Just sayin…
@several – I’m planning to do the letter in a separate post at the end of Part 4 – so, right after Chapter 75. Since that’s still several weeks out, I’ll probably just put spoiler warnings in the header paragraphs and go with ALL THE THINGS. Unless I get a lot of pushback between now and then, of course – but most of the people here are sufficiently dedicated Sanderson fans that they’ll have read it all already. :)
@25
Re: Shallan’s ‘It helps if your crazy’ joke.
I felt the same way that, this joke was more truth disguised as a joke.
@26
DO IT!! No push back from this corner, just some good old fashioned enabling.
Re: Envisagers.
I suppose on some level the whole “putting yourself in death’s way to gain powers” seems silly, but isn’t it almost exactly what happens regularly in Mistborn, if only with slightly less control? And while forced snapping there is not exactly a great tradition, it’s one that worked out well enough for the Scadrial nobility.
@13. dptullos – It is sad that you find Shallan “guilty” just because she can be called a slave-owner. Shallan actually gave the slaves 3 options – a) Go free, b) work for me as a servant and remain a slave, c) work for me as a servant and work to become a free person. It seems to me that Shallan takes the moral high ground, as she is treating them as people and giving them choices, even if the choice is to remain legally a slave. Dptullos on the other hand wants to take choice from these people and force them to become free so that no one could call Shallan a slave-owner. It seems that Dptullos finds labels to be more important than actions. Shallan is taking the difficult path, by taking responsibility for these “slaves” and doing her best to teach them to see themselves as other than “slaves” and allowing them to earn their own freedom. Something earned is much more valuable than something given for “free”.
@24:
When has Kaladin proven emphatic enough to even try to comprehend the problems of others? He only tackled Shallan’s because he was literally forced to, but would he even noticed if her light starts to falter? Kaladin has always been an individual who focus on tasks, duties, but never on people. He would never notice.
Also, the argument wanting Kaladin being broken putting him in a better place to understand/support Shallan has always bothered me.
How is it Kaladin is better placed than Adolin to understand her burden? Because he is broken? Kaladin’s ordeal share absolutely no ressemblance to Shallan: Kaladin is victim of class abuse while Shallan is victim of domestic abuse. It doesn’t even begin to compare so how does it positioned him better to actually understand her? Does a rape victimn need to marry another rape victim if she (or he) is to hope at finding a sympathetic supporting ear? Does one need to experience trauma to understand trauma?
But more importantly, is it fair to ask of Shallan to be Kaladin’s romantic interest, partner, psychiatrist, psychologist and treating consultant? She can’t be asked to spend a lifetime being his light. Nobody is strong enough to withstand a lifetime of forgetting oneself’s in order to constantly cheer up someone else not to mention living with a depressive individual is horribly difficult. And demanding. And taxing. And very difficult to understand as there are times when you just don’t want to be depressed by your partner, you just want him to smile and to be there for you, as opposed to the opposite, always the opposite.
Happiness in a relationship cannot be placed on one partner’s shoulders.
These are reasons enough for me to not want this ship to happen.
I have other reasons as well for disliking this ship, but they probably should not be stated.
@30
Okay we know where I stand on the Kaladin/Shallan ship so I’m not re-stating it.
But I want to say I don’t think that people who like this ship are saying that Shallan has to actively be constantly trying to make Kaladin smile. IMO, what they are saying and what actually makes sense, is that Shallan by just being herself can become a light to Kaladin. Just like Tein was. Tein was just himself. Just by being himself and wanting to share a cool rock with Kaladin he made Kaladin happy. Even with just Shallan/Kaladin friendship I think this would be a part a dynamic. Shallan just by being herself and being fascinated by chasmfiends when they are trying to kill her and occasionally trying to kill Kaladin to make them both feel better and just being there can make him happy. I doesn’t need to romantic.
@30:
I don’t think it’s at all fair to say that Kaladin doesn’t try to understand the problems of others. That is exactly what he had to do in order to get Bridge Four to work together as a team back in WoK. He is certainly sensitive to the feelings of others (just, at this point, not lighteyes). We continue to see him taking care of individual members in his team throughout this book. He understands Moash’s desire for revenge and he takes the time to apologize and make up for the way he treated Shen. And he’s empathetic enough to be upset at the deaths of the Herdazians that he didn’t even know personally (though this goes along with his desire to take the blame for everything…).
Kaladin has certainly had a problem in accepting that even lighteyes have problems in their lives, but that is exactly what Shallan is teaching him to do here. From this point on, he starts to be more responsive to the individuality of lighteyes, as he has done all along for the darkeyes in his care.
(To echo @31:) I also don’t think anyone who is advocating Shallan/Kaladin is saying she needs to be his light forever and constantly if they end up in a romantic relationship. (besides, he already has his lifelong therapist in Syl!) But being a light and a support for the other person at times IS crucial to any functioning relationship, romantic or otherwise. The key is to make sure that it is reciprocal. And I do think Kaladin can do that for her. Adolin can probably learn to do that better as well, but just the way his character is right now, he definitely has some growth to undergo.
To answer your question, I think that yes, one needs to experience trauma in order to understand trauma. But that doesn’t mean that everyone has to experience the exact same trauma. In fact, they cannot. But I have found in my life that my own traumatic experiences help me relate better to others undergoing trauma–even if our traumas are completely unrelated. Through no fault of his own, Adolin just hasn’t experienced that much trauma. He has had some (perhaps his mom dying, things like that), everyone has. But let’s be honest, he’s probably in for a lot more trauma in his life once the whole Sadeas thing gets out… And perhaps in that process, he can come to understand Shallan better and be a more understanding (and emotionally deeper) match for her.
I’ll echo the sentiments about this being a fav chapter and not putting the book down at the end of it.
@@@@@ Alice
I haven’t quite finished M:SH yet–soon. Nevertheless, I’m open to starting discussions anytime. No pushback from me. And does Suit’s POV in the BoM epilogue play into this discussion? It’s a bit like sorting out 2 jigsaw puzzles that have been dumped into the same box. (I haven’t payed attention to the spoiler threads, don’t have enough free time right now.)
Airsicklowlander @@@@@19
I’d like to think Sigzil will play an important role in future SA books since he does have a relationship with Hoid.
“Who invited Rayse to the Adonalsium splitting party?” Right! Ati too. The signals seem to indicate these 2 were predisposed to go in the direction of Big Bad. I have to wonder what the outcome would have been if someone less inclined to be a Big Bad would have become a vessel for those shards.
@33
Ati was at one time supposed to have been a kind and generous man. Rayse, apparently, was always a jerk. The only reason I can imagine him being invited is because he brought something necessary to the table and was not just there to fill out the numbers.
@Alice, 28; Re: Envisagers
Is it just me or is putting yourself personally at risk much less crazy and full of consequence than trying to bring back Voidbringers just so the Heralds (who seem to be dealing with deep seated emotional issues) will come save you?
M:SH – As a courtesy to others, I suggest waiting at least a month from the release date before discussing it here. Of course, we’re already dropping clues about BoM, so YMMV.
Glad to see the plan @@@@@26. Sounds like a good one.
Going back to some of last week’s discussion, I encountered this while re-reading Hero of Ages.
Now Kaladin has not been going around killing random lighteyes or stealing from them. But his own actions and attitudes have skewed his perceptions. Thankfully this chapter is part of the attitude adjustment he needs.
@@@@@ Alice: I too reread this chapter and couldn’t stop. Wound up rereading all the way to the end.
I was happy to see the vignette with Bridge 4.
Will sigh that we did not get one of the more immediate reaction of clan Kholin after the bridge fall. But this section was a short story in its own right, so too many breaks of POV would have broken the story.
@29 adjbaker
A slaveowner is a person who owns slaves. Shallan owns slaves, so she is a slaveowner. When she came to own her slaves, Shallan gave them three options.
a) Go “free” in the middle of the wilderness, without legally becoming a free person. In the unlikely event that they survived, they’ll spend the rest of their lives hiding and hoping that slavecatchers don’t find them. Not a particularly viable option.
b) Be a slave.
c) Work for me as a slave who gets paid wages, and pay me most of those wages so that you eventually won’t have to be a slave.
It’s funny how all of the choices that Shallan gives them seem to benefit Shallan. I think she might have gone with option
d) Recognize that people aren’t property, and treat them like people.
There really isn’t anything wrong with wanting people to be free, or in reminding them that no one should ever have to “earn” what belongs to them by virtue of their inalienable rights as a human being. I’m also puzzled by the idea that Shallan is taking the “hard” path in acquiring her own servants, who will be vital in establishing her status as a lighteyed lady of rank. Slaveowners are always quick to talk about what a burden it is to have labor that can’t quit, and how hard it is to own people to do their work for them.
Just out of curiosity, when did you “earn” your own freedom? I recall being born free, and I don’t remember going through a period of indentured servitude before I became a citizen. I don’t think I missed out on learning how to be livestock before I got to be a person, and I don’t think anyone else should regret not having that experience, either.
@@@@@ Wetlandernw – By the time you finish part 4 enough time will have passed since Bands of Mourning and M:SH have come out. A spoilers ahead blurb at the beginning should be enough. I’ll restrain myself from posting about the letter until then. I forgot you were going to discuss it all at once. Thanks again for the posts. Always fun and insightful.
@36: I saw you read my late posts from last chapter, so I won’t repeat that information.
I see this slave system as more closely bases upon the ancient Roman style of slavery. After a slave earned or bought his freedom, he could become a Roman citizen with the right to vote. (Note, only males has the right to vote.)
While doing a quick search on other ancient slavery systems, I was rather horrified to discover that the last country to abolish slavery didn’t happen until 1981.
But I admit to getting frustrated with you too. You seem to be condemning Shallan and all of her culture for not following modern thoughts on slavery. If there was a hint of an abolitionist movement in Roshar, I could understand wanting Shallan to be on that side. But when you have a culture where the thought of abolishing slavery has not even happened, you’re getting mad the impossible.
You are wanting her to be a poster child for a movement that has not even been thought of yet. I’m at a lost of words to even compare this too. Historically, the abolishment of slavery is a radical change. And there is a great deal of resistance to such wide spread social changes.
Do I hope the slave / cast system is destroyed before the end of the books, yes. But I’m not going to get mad at the characters for not holding my beliefs. After a few slaves become Radiant or Squires – I bet changes will happen in-book.
dptullos @36 – Before you condemn Shallan for “owning slaves” and “not treating them like people” you might consider a few things:
1) She gave them options (even though you like to pretend they were insignificant).
2) She was open with them: “You may run, and I won’t hunt you, but I do need servants and I’ll pay you well.”
3) She’s paying them five times the normal slave wages.
4) She’s allocating five times more toward paying down their slave debt; most of them would be free in under two years – and were uncomfortable with the idea. (Compare this with Kaladin’s thoughts that a slave would normally have to work somewhere between ten and fify years to pay off a debt.)
5) She paid attention to them as individuals: she learned their names, and was aware that they were marked in such a way as to indicate that they had entered servitude willingly, as a means of paying off debts they could not otherwise redeem. She also checked with them to be sure they were accommodated well.
@36. dptullos – Indeed Shallan did pick option 4) She treats them like people and not property. Later, she even comments that some of them are uncomfortable with the idea of her paying off their slave debt. Shallan did not create the class system in this society, but all evidence shows that she at least treats all classes as people.
As far as my own personal experience with slavery. I have been a slave to addiction and depression and I still struggle with it at times. I also was part of a company that was bought out by a private entrepreneur. The policies he put in place made me feel like a slave. I eventually left after a couple years, but I could not leave immediately because of lack of other jobs and the financial debt I have and the requirements of supporting my family. I also have a sister who was in a bad relationship for years where she was indeed treated as property and in effect a slave. She had to come to terms with the situation and make the choice to leave, but while in that relationship she was a slave.
I will say again, the labels are meaningless, it is the actions that are taken that are meaningful and the way we treat other people. In this fictional story, Shallan is treating these “slaves” as people and are freeing them from their slave debt and giving them a sense of self worth. Yes, the situation is mutually beneficial, but that does not take away from the fact that she is transforming the people she has relationships with.
As a lighteye daughter of a traditional house, Shallan:
Had only the things her father gave her permission to have.
Could only go where her father allowed.
Could only learn the things her father.
Expected to be “sold” into a marriage her father arranged for gain.
All this applied to her brothers as well. Plus he beat them when he wished. Without her Shardblad, he would have beaten her too.
So in many ways her upbringing was that of a pampered slave. Yet you are asking that she think people have the right of self–determination? That is not part of her mindset, because she’s never even been exposed to the concept.
She’s amazed when Jasnah brings that up in the choice of becoming a scholar vs. a mother.
I think we should be very clear about Shallan’s virtues and failings.
She treats her slaves as people from her actions we see that she doesn’t view them as ontologically different, and within the confines of her society she treats them extremely well. (This is not a defense of slavery in Roshar. It sounds pretty awful to me.)
She does not view heteronomy as being inherently bad. Jasnah is all about autonomy. Shallan is like “yeah, that sounds great I’m happy with things being better than I expected.”
Shallan at her worst is thoughtlessly privileged. Taking Kaladin’s boots was a lark to her. She didn’t do it to hurt him, but because she could. If she should be taken into account for her behavior as a light-eyed lady it is here.
As for the commenters who are talking about the limits of abolitionist thought, I take your point. Historically, freedom has been secured for one segment by the lack of freedom for others. It is our hope, I imagine, that the former category expands while the latter category contracts. However, “it was a different time” defenses can get really gross really quickly. Especially, since we know at least one ardent just got executed for her critique of the political system.
I think the best hope for Shallan’s expanding moral horizons is contained in being a Lightweaver, whose abilities increase as their self-awareness does. I would be surprised if she does not grapple with serious moral issues and expand her capacity for moral judgment.
Hi All.
Some thought in a topic Alice mention a few days ago and I think is wrongly approached. Alice compared the actual society of Roshar and the one when Odium wins, saying the latter was, more or less, total destruction. I am not sure this is true. With Ruin, yes, we can expect his final objective to be total destruction, but with Odium, an entity that hates, no. I expect people will be tremendously unhappy, but the majority will be alive and the planet will continue to exist. Let’s expand a little on this.
Taking into account the parallel that Honor relates to binding things and Odium to separating things (although this excludes Cultivation from the analysis). What makes a society healthy? I think the focus is on EMPATHY, TRUST and COMPASION. You care about the other and trust them to work side by side on a common goal, bringing social development. This are feelings that bound a society together and toward happiness. Contrary to this is SELFISHNESS, INTOLERANCE and VIOLENCE that put individuals against each other and makes almost all miserable. I think this will be the objective of Odium, and the Alethi society resembles this a lot, with highprinces backstabbing all others and war exalted. In the end Honor is dead and Cultivation don’t care so is normal that Odium is winning. I don’t think the actual Roshar is totally under Odium influence, but is slowly going that path until someone take radical action.
With this Odium objective/goal we can try to guess his means. An army of voidbringers and thunderclasts will be self-defeating because this provide people with a common enemy and they easily could join against them. If I am Odium I will put stress on the society (coming Desolation) and begin blaming leaders and many others (Radiants are bad, etc.). I want to maximize chaos and probably need very little number of peons (to seed distrust and egoism) and probably none of them public figures. I can even drop a powerful weapon, like a thunderclast, to a warlord a let be used as the warlord likes. So Taravangian is wrong when he say humans face species extinction, the Desolation will be a traumatic physic event for Roshar, but the real danger will be the spiritual changes this event will cause.
With this in mind we can explain the Recreance. There are no “magical” enemy to fight, or their numbers are very little, the principal enemy simply is bad people on both sides, whichever the sides are. I understand how this can remove the will to fight in Radiants and how the Ardents want to hide it.
Regards,
Alain
@@@@@ dptullos: Not to mention the fact that most of Shallan’s “slaves” were deserters from the army, criminals, or run away slaves already. Not only is Shallan giving them an opportunity to create new lives for themselves, she is able to use her status as a light eyed woman to protect them from legal ramifications. I’m guessing most of them would not be able to stay at the shattered plains under any other circumstances.
@32: Kaladin is emphatic to who he chooses to be emphatic to which is to say people reminding him of helpless Tien. I don’t currently believe he has the capacity to truly engage into a long-term relationship, not until he sorts himself out which he may or may not manage to do.
There also is a difference in being supportive and literally having to drag the other person out of depression. In the case of the Shallan/Kaladin union, I think it would be heavily unbalanced in a way I don’t see working in the long run.
I also seriously disagree one needs to experience trauma to understand trauma. It is very reducing towards other people to think they cannot understand simply for not having lived “hard enough hardships”. Are we going to start to weight in pains and hardships to see who is “worthy” of understanding Shallan? There are “normal” people who naturally are very emphatic and can place themselves into basically any situations in order to better relate to others just as there are traumatize individuals which are guilty of being narrow-minded and so self-centered on their own problems they fail to understand others may have issues as well.
Understanding doesn’t always come hand in hand with trauma. Kaladin being broken doesn’t give him a free-pass towards understanding every individuals traumatic life and Adolin’s “normal life” doesn’t remove him form the capacity to emphasize with others.
The QOTW may be my favorite part of the book. I could read it over and over again. I love the whole chasm section. Syl’s return is another favorite part. I ship Kaladin/Shallan. I believe their relationship could develop and be mutually supportive. I don’t think the burden would always be on Shallan. I think Kaladin will come to a place where he is up more often than he is down. At this point, he is obviously down more often than not.
I remember on my first read I was very thrown by Kaladin’s attitude in the first part of the book. I wanted him happy all the time and I was outraged that we did not get to see Kaladin confront Amaram right away. I was pleased with Kaladin for calling out Amaram at the end of the duel. It felt a little late to be honest. This is part of why I don’t care how aggressive Kaladin is with Shallan. I was so confused by Kaladin’s control regarding Amaram. I wanted him to act on what he was feeling. With Shallan, Kaladin does act on what he is feeling even if he is confusing and contradictory in his arguments.
I do think the envisagers are less crazy than the sons of honor. There is no excuse for trying to bring back the voidbringers and another desolation. Does the loss of civilization mean nothing to them? Amaram is all “it’s for the greater good”. What?!? What greater good is served by the death of 90% of the population? I suppose Amaram you assume you’ll be part of the 10% or you wouldn’t be so gung-ho.
I definitely want to know more about Sigzil. I’m excited we will see Cultivation in the next book.
@@@@@ Alainesp I don’t know what Odium is trying to accomplish. It seems like the extinction of humans would be good enough for him. I’ve heard that Taravangian’s plan will end up being humans survive in service to Odium. So your argument that humans live in misery fits that.
Roman slavery was unpleasant, to say the least, primarily because there were absolutely no protections and only much later were there methods of complaint. Roshar’s society resembles it, although it’s based upon the physical feature of eye color whereas Romans were equal opportunists in their enslavement practices.
The “generous” Rosharan contingents treat slaves about as well as could be expected within such a system; more of a city slave approach where education and property use are somewhat attainable based upon aptitude and the pentacle of higher slave living has the potential to be far better than living as a free poor man.
And then we have the more brutal Rosharan methods, akin to a Roman slave working the chain gangs/mines (very, very low life expectancy) or used for pleasure.
It is important to emphasize that house slaves in Roman times could just as easily be abused, tortured, or executed because all Roman slaves were viewed as sub-human.
Kal transitioned from a kind of “Grecco-Roman Doctor” to “military auxiliary” to “dediticii” under Amaram. He remained that way under Sadeas and then was bought with a shard blade.
Under Dalinar he is made into a weird type of “peregrines” after which he became a strange cross between a “servus publicas” and “lictor” where he only answers to a few higher ups and can use lethal force against nobility if it is warranted.
Shallan offered great “in world” options, good pay with a strong shot at manumission. So she maximizes their mobility within societal constraints. An amazing offer for her audience and understandably a bit cringeworthy for a modern day reader. I was happy as a reader with her offer. It was well thought out and generous. Those men would not have survived long in their current situation and with their past histories. But I have a bit of an understanding of what it means to sign away some of my rights as a citizen and to operate in dangerous environments, I’ve even worked my way up through the system. My socioeconomic status made higher learning a long shot, but I could finance my “social advancement” through contractural service to my country, giving up certain freedoms. Much better than Roman slavery to be sure, but still possessing certain similarities to the point where I can read Shallan’s offer and think of it as a truly altruistic gesture, one that I would agree to in those circumstances. YMMV of course.
Edit: Fixed a few typos. Sorry about the sentence structure. I was in a rush
Kind of late to the thread (sick toddlers at home) but I can’t not chime in on this chapter. I’m not an overly emotional person (to say the least), but that line …
Brings tears to my eyes every single time. Amazingly powerful. One aspect of that that I didn’t see anyone comment on (although I might have missed it, if so my apologies) is that Shallan is able to convey the depth and reality of her brokenness and her understanding of depression to Kaladin, to reach him at his rock bottom and lift him up, before she accepts her own past and allows herself to remember how broken she really is. Even in her current state of denial she’s knows enough darkness for Kaladin to recognize it and see her truth. If he only knew the full story.
#11 @dwcole – You’re not the only person here who’s not left-leaning. Mind you we may not be in the majority, but we do exist. 99% of the time I haven’t found it to be an issue around here. And as for the 1%, I find that turning the other cheek is the best strategy. Nuking the place from orbit would be messy. :-) Seriously though, I think that’s a really good insight on the nature of Shallan being to give Kaladin her shardblade even though he might not deserve it.
#43 @alainesp – Excellent point about Odium. Oblivion is probably not the goal if he can do worse.
Gepeto, I have various things I could say about the points you bring up, but I don’t want to argue with you. I think we are both pretty set in our opinions and emotionally invested in them, and I’m concerned that we’d just be annoying each other and chucking conflicting character analyses at each other if we keep talking about this. I’m happy to discuss strengths and weaknesses I see in Shallan/Kaladin and other ships, but only if it’s going to be enjoyable for those involved and not just frustrating.
@31 kei_rin: Yes, that’s just what I was laboring to say. I’d also agree that Shallan could make Kaladin happy just through a friendship. Honestly, there are a lot of good ways Sanderson could resolve these relationships.
@32 Idriana: I don’t read Kaladin’s concern for Bridge 4, Moash, etc. as being completely selfless and empathetic. I think there are some very mixed motives going on there. While he really is helping them, he’s also trying to prove himself, “make up” somehow for failing his family, spit in the face of lighteyes who have hurt him, and generally indulge in his Chronic Hero Syndrome. That being said, a great deal of Kaladin’s character development has been about him moving away from his self-centeredness and towards true concern about others. The scene in TWoK of him talking with Hoid and then thinking it over afterwards is a good example. The chasm scenes are another. So while I would agree that Kaladin is – for the most part! – not particularly empathetic now, I do believe he is steadily moving towards genuine care for others. A relationship with Shallan could fit nicely into that character development, now that I think about it. Though really, any relationship could, more or less.
I agree that the fallout of Sadeas’s death could really deepen Shallan and Adolin’s relationship, but it depends on how exactly things play out and of course where Sanderson wants to go. If he wants Shallan and Adolin to wind up together, I wouldn’t be surprised if he chooses to put Adolin through some difficult experiences so that he shares more with Shallan. But for now this is all speculation.
@35 Braid_Tug: Yeah, it’s unfortunate that we didn’t get to see more of went on in Dalinar’s and especially Adolin’s minds after they thought Shallan and Kaladin were dead. It’s touching to see Bridge 4 waiting for Kaladin, though – and Dalinar letting them.
@43 Alainesp: Hmm. Interesting theory. That is the kind of twist Sanderson might like to pull on us: actually, what you thought the bad guy was doing was wrong all along! But we seem to be reasonably sure that past Desolations really were terribly destructive events that could have wiped out humanity if unrestrained. There was also Dalinar’s final vision in TWoK of (IIRC) barren, ruined land. Perhaps Odium is attempting to somehow do both? Maybe we can take some clues from the Heralds’ memories of the place where they’re tormented (which is possibly Braize, the planet that Odium is actually on).
@48 Nick31: Good point. Somewhat related: One interesting thing to me about Shallan and Kaladin’s interactions in the chasms is that they wind up thinking each other are stronger than they actually are. In some ways they revealed their brokenness to each other, but they don’t really reveal how much they’re still practically struggling with these things. Kaladin is left thinking that Shallan is stronger than he ever was, unaware that she still carefully distracts herself from some elements of her past. Shallan thinks of Kaladin as in control and immovable, not realizing how his anger, frustration, and depression still rule him sometimes. They still don’t know so much, and yet they’ve already had an impact on each other.
Re: Slavery: I’m glad that Shallan isn’t an abolitionist, even if it means she’s doing something wrong, because her behavior towards slavery makes sense for someone like her in that society. If Brandon Sanderson has written her as firmly anti-slavery, then maybe I’d like her better, but I’d also have the unpleasant feeling that Sanderson is shoehorning modern ideas into a non-modern character. Sanderson is choosing to make us a bit uncomfortable with his character in order to be true to his worldbuilding. I appreciate his doing this, since I’ve read too much bad historical fiction where the main characters are feminist abolitionist democrats in a painfully anachronistic way. But others may prefer to read books that don’t make them so uncomfortable. (I know I avoid some of the hardcore historical fiction that has the main characters doing really awful but realistic and time-appropriate stuff.)
sheesania @49 re slavery. Excellent point. It is exactly what I think (except much more eloquently stated).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@49. sheesania – I agree with most of your comments on slavery and that it would not make sense for Shallan to be an abolitionist, but I don’t understand what you think Shallan is doing “wrong”. In the US, we have over 2 million slaves locked in our prisons until they have paid their debt to society. Their only option is to rot in prison. Shallan is willing to give the slaves she meets the option to leave, or she will pay them and allow them to become part of her household. I simply don’t understand the opinion that Shallan is doing something wrong. Unless you think she was wrong to “steal” the slaves and give them the option to leave.
Edited with another thought: Is the US system of slavery/prison really that much more superior than the slavery/prison system of Shallan’s society.
@50 AndrewHB: Thanks. :)
@51 adjbaker: I didn’t intend to state either way that I thought Shallan was doing wrong, or that she was doing right, either. Honestly, I’m not sure, and I’d rather not take a firm side in the debate. (Though I’m inclined to think that Shallan was really helping them also by getting them established in Sebarial’s household, accustomed to the idea of being free, &c, so when they work the slave debt off they’ll not only be free legally but also freer in opportunity and mind.) The main point is that regardless of whether she’s actually doing anything unethical, some modern readers will not be okay with her actions.
ETA: One tricky thing about this whole discussion is that word “slavery.” It screams EVIL for a lot of readers, but what does it actually mean? Are we condemning the system just because it’s called “slavery” or because we’ve seen evidence that it’s worth condemning? As others have pointed out, there have been many very different systems called “slavery” in various times and places, with some much worse than others…and then there are modern systems which we don’t call “slavery” but which are quite similar and comparably unpleasant. The other commenters have done a good job bringing this out; it’s just important to be careful that all parties know what they’re actually talking about when they use such a vague word.
@52. sheesania – very insightful comments. Yes, the word “slave” has powerful history and emotions behind it. Words can be extremely powerful. I love the way Sanderson uses that theme in this series and of course in the title “Words of Radiance”. I also feel he does a good job in showing that words by themselves are not enough …. it takes Belief, Action, and Words.
I think this applies to the topic of slavery also. Just calling Shallan a “slave-owner” has no power and means nothing when Shallan’s beliefs and actions are in direct opposition to what it truly means to be a “slave-owner.”
@49 sheesania …Dalinar’s final vision in TWoK of barren, ruined land.
I always see this as a metaphorical vision. Remember that Honor is bad at predicting the future so he can see a treat to Roshar, but he isn’t sure the kind of treat or the cause of it. I am not saying the Desolation isn’t a catastrophe. I picture the events as this:
– An event that kills 1/5 of human population (with minimal input from Odium). Catastrophic, yes, but not a threat to humankind.
– The survivors fight each other for food, the few remaining resources and power killing 3/5 of the population.
Then Lift go and ask Odium “Why you do this?” and he answer [with a sinister small smile] “Despicable beings. I do nothing.” (a lie, but a small one) “Your kind had options and they choose to kill each other. They deserve all the suffering.”
I see the work of Odium widening the cracks that already exists in human society. The answer by Szeth, Shinovarians and Nalan is to strictly follow the law. So if you had a more or less just system and the majority follow it, Odium can’t work. Convert people into robots; it is difficult to hate robots. Lift answer is that there are good and things to love in people, and we need to focus on that.
Disclaimer: My opinion is based on my feelings reading the books and probably what I want to see. This early in the serie we can’t work with much more :)
adjbaker @@@@@ 51. You said “In the US, we have over 2 million slaves locked in our prisons until they have paid their debt to society. Their only option is to rot in prison.”
I disagree. I acknowledge some people serving prison sentences can be rehabilitated. These individuals are not inherently evil. They have made wrong decisions that ultimately lead them into a situation beyond what they realized would happen. Perhaps they were misguided or duped. Or perhaps they felt they had to take an action because they believed had no other options.
However, many people in US prisons are evil. They deserve to be locked up. I am referring to the murderers, rapists and pedophiles who if not locked up would commit one crime after another. For these criminals, do you want to have them sit in a time out for an hour or two (as if they were a naughty child) and then be released into the general populace? In my opinion, the answer to that question is no. These career criminals are not slaves. Rather, they are evil people who voluntarily commit their acts. They deserve to be locked up and loose their freedom. For these people, rehabilitation is not an option. Retribution is the only option. In some cases, retribution could mean the death penalty (I personally think we need to use the death penalty more and eliminate frivolous death row appeals. But that is beside the case). Retribution also means a very long prison sentence or even a lifetime prison sentence with no right of parole.
Are there problems with the US prison system? Probably yes. Are there prisoners who may have received too harsh a system for the crime they committed? Probably yes. Are all prisoners in the US prison system slaves? Absolutely not. If such individuals are not allowed to “rot in prison” until “they have paid their debt to society” (even if for the remainder of their lives), what should the US do with these criminals? Would you want serial killers like Charles Manson, Ted Kazcynski or Ted Bundy (were he still alive) released back in society? What about career criminals like Whitey Bulger and John Gotti (if he were still alive). What about terrorists like Timothy McVeigh (if he were still alive) or Dzhokhar Tsarmaev? I would not want these individuals released back into the general population. Nor would I want all the other rapists, drug dealers, murderers, arsonists, terrorists, pedophiles, blackmailers, and other career criminals released from prison before they have “paid their debt to society.” These criminals voluntarily committed the acts for which they were sent to prison. They deserve to complete their prison term. For those sentenced to life in prison or death, they deserved it. I think to equate those individuals with either indentured servants (who were slaves during their time of indentured servitude) or those African Americans who were slaves prior to the Emancipation Proclamation and 13th Amendment does their memory an injustice.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@55. AndrewHB – if you have trouble using the word slave to describe any US prisoner, then you should have trouble using that term to describe many of the “slaves” in Roshar. As described in the books, many of them enter “slavery” because of crimes they commit, slavery is their punishment. Some of bridge 4 are definitely murderers, I am sure you would describe them as “evil”.
ETA: Not to mention Shallan’s deserter guards. Many of them claimed to have done unforgivable crimes. Should they be forgiven, enslaved, executed, imprisoned forever?
Back to the US, around half of US prisoners are there because of “non-violent” crimes, a large percentage because of drug possession. Many people in the US actually avoid jail, by being sentenced to temporary “slavery” (community service) instead of jail.
ETA: The closest thing to US enslavement of African Americans is the Parshman of Roshar, which we have not talked about in this context yet.
@56: Are you suggesting individuals found guilty of crimes should never be punished because whatever punishment we may think of is too similar to slavery?
Community services are NOT slavery: it is a punishment you deserved because you broke the law. Period.
Most slaves on Alethkar are slaves because they broke the law and yes, some of Bridge 4 likely are criminals. While they didn’t deserve to be made bridgemen: nobody seriously deserves to be tortured, they probably deserved a sentence. If not being imprisoned or sent to work out your debt, then what do you suggest? We let those who break the law go unpunished because a book presented them as poor victims when in fact they likely deserved some of it… Look at Moash: having have his grand-parents died does not excuse him for his crimes. One crime does not excuse another.
@@@@@ adjbaker @@@@@ 56. Yes. Some Alekthi slaves are made slaves as a punishment for some crime. Yet these same slaves are paid wages to pay off their debt. At that time they will be free. Also true that sometimes the wages paid was a pittance and that it would take a lifetime to pay off their slavery. Nevertheless, I am able to distinguish the system of punishment that includes slavery as a type of punishment in a fictional country on a fictional world.
In the United States, I do not believe that you can make a reasonable argument that a criminal sentenced to serve time in prison is a slave in the meaning of a African American slave before the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th Amendment or a slave in the Roman Empire. Those individuals had no rights. They could be beaten upon the will of the slavemaster or sold for livestock. They had no hope (however minimal) of eventual freedom. In fact (at least in America), these slaves were treated not as humans but as chattel.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@39 Wetlandernw
I think we may be coming at this from different angles. My perspective is that slavery is wrong, full stop. Slaveowners can be more or less sadistic, uncaring, and thoughtless, but slavery is still evil, and those who practice it are still committing a crime against their fellow human beings, who are not property.
Yes, Shallan is honest with her slaves, pays them enough to earn their freedom, and knows their names. There are plenty of slaveowners in the history of America or Rome who did the same. There are plenty of good reasons, beyond a basic lack of cruelty, to do so. Slaves who have the prospect of freedom work harder, and they aren’t nearly as likely to take the risk of running away, much less plotting against their owners.
It’s certainly generous of Shallan to pay five times the going wage to her slaves, but slavery is still wrong. No one here has any difficulty grasping that fact as it applies to the 21st century, or for that matter the 19th century. Evil is evil, regardless of the time or place that it is practiced, and regardless of whether we know the people it is practiced upon.
@41 Braid_Tug
Shallan has no difficulty in recognizing that slavery is evil as it applies to her. She clearly sees how her father’s ownership of her choices and her life is wrong. Even as she seeks independence for herself, though, she does not value the independence of other human beings, particularly those that society places beneath her.
@42 Luke
You’re right about how unpleasant the “everyone did it back then” argument gets. Somehow, no one ever breaks out the bandwagon argument with regard to the Nazis. It’s completely applicable, though; for a child raised in Hitler’s Germany, slavery and genocide were quite right and proper. If we’re going to excuse Shallan and the Alethi for just doing what their society tells them to do, shouldn’t we give the Nazis a pass as well?
@A surprising number of posters
I’m actually surprised, not by the frequent and generally well-thought out defenses of Shallan’s specific decision, but by the posts insisting that slavery in general, or the Alethi system in particular, isn’t that bad. How many unjustly condemned slaves have we seen just among Bridge 4?
We’ve actually seen how the enslavement of criminals works in America. Look up “chain gangs in the South” or “Parchman Farm” to get a sample of the kind of abuses this system generates. Though I strongly disagree with the arguments that Shallan is making the right choice, I can see merit in many of the counterarguments. I honestly cannot understand how anyone can argue for the virtue of any system of slavery in the 21st century, when the human race has already tried every possible variation and found them all cruel, abusive, and destructive of human life and dignity.
dptullos @59. Speaking only for myself, my arguments regarding slavery are not that slavery is OK because it is accepted in certain nations on Roshar. Rather, I refuse to impose the morals of most 21st Century societies onto a fictional society. To me the concept of one human owning another is abhorrent. That said, I cannot rationally expect a character whose society does not have an abolition movement to support the abolishment of slavery. Had BS written a scene where Shallan read a treatise (or otherwise been made aware of) where somebody advocated abolishing slavery, I would have a different opinion. Then I would have criticized Shallan for owning slaves. Yet BS did not write such a scene. Until and unless BS makes us aware that at least somebody on Roshar has advocated for the end of slavery (and Shallan is aware of such a movement), I will contend that we should not criticize Shallan for keeping slaves.
I do not defend the practice of slavery in the abstract. However, any criticism of Shallan has to be looked at in the proper context. I believe that context has to factor the society at issue’s (in this case Alethkar) take on slavery.
Likewise, I do not use the N word. Yet, I do not advocate banning Huckleberry Finn or Tom Sawyer because Mark Twain used the word in a book where the characters were from a time and location where people used the N word. Do you think that Mark Twain is not a great author because he used the N word, even though when he wrote said said works, the use of the N word was accepted? For me, I do not think less of Mark Twain as a writer.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@60 AndrewHB
No society has an abolitionist movement until individuals stand up and make it happen. If every abolitionist waited for abolitionism to be popular or widespread until they supported it, they would be waiting forever. Someone has to be the first, and they’re not going to be popular.
Huckleberry Finn is actually an excellent example of this. Huckleberry is steeped in the racist and pro-slavery ideology of the South, as shown by his casual use of the N word and his certainty that God supports slavery. But in one of the most powerful scenes I have ever read, he decides that he’s going to treat Jim like a human being, and that if God disapproves, “he’ll go to hell”.
An uneducated, ignorant child of the American South could decide to rise above his own society and belief system to do the right thing. It may use the N word, but Huckleberry Finn is one of the most powerful antislavery works I have ever read, precisely because Huckleberry doesn’t share any 21st century views. He has all the bigotry that his world raised him with, and he chooses to be better.
Abolitionism isn’t limited to the 21st century, or to any time or place. It’s a universal concept which everyone can accept for themselves, but only some people choose to feel for others. Both Shallan and Huckleberry grow up in societies with morally depraved belief systems, and both of them have to choose whether to defy their culture’s rules. If Huckleberry can manage it, so can Shallan.
dptullos @62. Do you also believe that Shallan should be criticized for being sexist? She supports a culture that discriminates against both men and women. Altheki society has certain roles for men and women. This ranges from what they can learn (only women learn to read and write) to what they can eat (different foods for each sex). Shallan does not advocate ending such practices. In fact, she perpetuates them. She is astounded that Amaram is use glyphics in such a way as to create a language. In the USA, the law requires equality between men and women. Unfortunately, such equality is not always realized in practice.
By your reasoning in @62 above, Shallan should be criticized for not championing overturning a society that adheres to discrimination based upon gender: something American society disavows.
(My apologies if you have criticized Shallan for this in a prior post.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@63 AndrewHB
Though I did not think of it before, I think Shallan really has less excuse for being sexist than she does for her class prejudice. Jasnah certainly doesn’t buy into ridiculous distinctions between men and women, and Shallan has been around her long enough to be fully exposed to her free-thinking ways. Though she’s known Navani for a shorter time, she can clearly see that Jasnah is not alone, and that other lighteyed women of extremely high rank reject the ridiculous gender roles imposed on them by Vorin society.
Thank you for pointing this out to me, especially I just never considered it. Earlier, you pointed out that Shallan has not been exposed to her society’s equivalent of an abolitionist pamphlet, but she has certainly encountered one of her society’s most important and convincing advocates of gender equality. If she’s not willing to reject gender bias after an extensive education by Jasnah, I don’t know who else could convince her.
Thanks for sharing your musings,
Dylan Tullos
So if I understand this correctly, Shallan is guilty, at 17 years old, of falling to not being a slave abolitionist and for falling to completely endorse a lesson in gender equity received by Jasnah in the mere weeks she was her ward. Her training was not extensive, it hardly even had time to begun before Jasnah bite the dust and disappeared into Shademars for weeks. Not only to mention Jasnah may want women to freely choose their life style, she still covers her hand and eats sugary food, as proper for a woman.
So wow.
Shallan might as well go and commit suicide since she is such a despicable human being who is incapable of promoting modern day views into a fictional planet after just 17 years of life.
So… can someone point me to the place where Jasnah advocates against gender roles? I seem to have forgotten that one.
Also, with all the good stuff in this chapter, how did the discussion devolve to a debate about whether Shallan should be considered despicable for keeping servants that her society calls slaves, even though their situation only slightly resembles the institution we think of when we say “slavery”?
Personally, I’m still wondering what kind of cymatic event occured at Stormseat that could have this pattern-forming effect on the whole huge Plains. We tried some experimentation with cymatics for my daughter’s science fair project last year, and… the scale of this event is mind-boggling.
Back to a comment about the amazing chapter.
After the beast returns, Kaladin basicly is telling Shallan “You run, you are important because of the information you have. “
Not: you are important because of eye color, or status, or because of Adolin. But because of the discovery she made.
That’s growth for him. I’m starting to wonder how much this interaction helped him come to the 3rd oath.
Yes, he has the real moment later. But maybe this was his baby steps in that direction.
Though I do not want to fall down further into the discussion of moral judgment and Shallan, I can provide a few instances when Jasnah talks about gender.
On page 45, she speaks of the “limitations” of marriage. First for the “restriction of freedom” it implies and also for not asking Shallan first.
She then speaks at length about it in a monograph that Shallan reads on page 772. (Amusingly enough, Alice points this passage out in her original reflections on the book, but it’s a long book and that post was nearly two years ago.)
“What is a woman’s place in this modern world? Jasnah Kholin’s words read. I rebel against this question, though so many of my peers ask it. The inherent bias in the inquiry seems invisible to so many of them. They consider themselves progressive because they are willing to challenge many of the assumptions of the past.
They ignore the greater assumption–that a ‘place’ for women must be defined and set forth to begin with. Half of the population must somehow be reduced to the role arrived at by a single conversation. No matter how broad that role is, it will be–by-nature–a reduction from the infinite variety that is womanhood.
I say that there is no role for women–there is, instead, a role for each woman, and she must make it for herself. For some, it will be the role of scholar; for others, it will be the role of wife. For others, it will be both. For yet others, it will be neither.”
Do not mistake me in assuming I value one woman’s role above another. My point is not to stratify our society–we have done that far to well already–my point is to diversify our discourse.
A woman’s strength should not be in her role, whatever she chooses it to be, but in the power to choose that role. It is amazing to me that I even have to make this point, as I see it as the very foundation of our conversation.”
I considered that passage, and rejected it as not relevant for the purpose of this discussion. She’s not really advocating for women to take on traditionally male roles. She’s just advocating for each woman to be able to decide for herself which of the many possible roles she wishes to pursue.
Why would only taking on “male roles” make it more relevant?
If we are asking what the core of Jasnah’s moral theory is and where its intersects with ideas about gender, then it is her fierce defense of autonomy. Women (and probably men) are empowered by making choices in her mind. She rejects that society or another person should have the power to determine the life or the will of another. In Vorin society, where so much is determined by gender, this is a screed against gender roles.
Amusingly, this seems to be a point of agreement between her and Hoid, and I doubt she likes agreeing with him. I still laugh when I read the part where Hoid skewers gendered divisions of labor by pointing out that women get all the fun and men get stabbed.
@@@@@ Braid Tug – yes you are right about that. Kaladin is returning to his awesome self in this chapter. :-)
Braid_Tug @67 – That’s… fascinating. I’d never thought of it that way. I thought it was great that he looked at the situation clearly enough to see that she was the one with the critical information, and therefore it was more important for her to get back than for him to. On the one hand, it’s not out of character for Kaladin to decide to be the self-sacrificing one. BUT… on the other hand, given his (very, very) recent attitude toward all lighteyes, and his (also-very-recent) antagonism toward Shallan herself, this really is a matter of “protecting even those I hate (or in this case, dislike/am annoyed by), so long as it is right.” Oh, the things you see on a reread… I agree: it is, indeed, a step in the right direction. Very cool!
Luke @70 – The original claim was that Shallan is sexist because “Jasnah certainly doesn’t buy into ridiculous distinctions between men and women, and Shallan has been around her long enough to be fully exposed to her free-thinking ways.” My point is that the basic contention is incorrect; Jasnah doesn’t have a problem with there being societal distinctions between men and women and the things that are appropriate for them to do.
What’s more, this is completely irrelevant to this chapter, which has other equally (or more) interesting things to discuss, and I’m not going any farther down this particular rabbit trail. The rest of you may, of course, do as you please.
I agree that it is irrelevant to this chapter; my purpose was not to provide evidence to support that view, but simply to provide evidence about what she said about the topic. Talking about what the text actually says is always more useful than not.
However, I’m surprised that one can read that passage and think Jasnah has no problem with gender roles or gendered divisions of labor. She explicitly rejects that women have a predetermined role and the stratification of that society is appropriate.
Jasnah will do whatever she thinks is best, and Heaven help the fool who gets in her way. (That’s probably Fool #3: The Fool Who Bothers Jasnah).
Gender roles: we are talking about anyone who follows the Vorin religion as having their roles defined and limited by a holy book.
Even the heretic follows many of these rules.
Commentators are asking this world to have modern western thoughts about free will and self determination.
Horneaters: son’s vocations is determined by birth order. If your older brother dies, your career path changes.
Shin: if you become “Truthless”- you are to follow all orders of whoever holds your oath stone.
No, we have not seen every culture on Roshar.
Yet every culture we have a hint about, does not have modern free will choices. Every culture limits individual choices in some manner.
Chapter: Kaladin’s cheek brushes Pattern as sword.
So he doesn’t hear the screaming. That makes him willing to touch sword.
Yeah for close confines.
So much of Sanderson’s writing in the next 2 chapters is so visual, I would love to see fan art of the large eye looking down on them.
Or see the movie adaptation in the future.
@67: That’s an interesting thought. Personally, I’m not sure this specific moment is a case of growth, as unlike later with Elkohar there really isn’t any other option.
Kaladin ends the chapter (before the Shardblade anyways), between a rock and a chasmfiend hard place. If this had happened at the end of last chapter I think Kaladin would have done the same thing.
Although I imagine this scene would be much less civil if it took place end of last chapter as opposed to here, and Kaladin definitely wouldn’t have said Shallan was more important. Or at least that was my first inclination…thinking about it, Kaladin is really down on himself here, he might have said that to pretty much anyone if they expressed they knew an important thing that needed to get back to Dalinar.
Although I’ll add the caveat that, judged on the other comments, I think this chapter is less important to Kaladin in terms of his racism than a lot of the others commenting. My mileage varied basically.
@66 (the cymatics part): That’s a good question, and one I don’t think I ever considered, because power-wise I know we’ve seen that from Sanderson…but very rarely. Maybe it was a desperation maneuver by a bunch of KRs in the past? It’s the kind of devastation you might intentionally trigger if the city was going to be mostly lost anyways…although it’s also the scale of devastation that would lose you the city in the first place.
Re: the shattering of the plains: I’ve got a few things in my notes that may be helpful. Shallan says in chapter 60 that “Stormseat was destroyed during the Last Desolation”, and seems to connect that to the shattering of the plains. Then at the beginning of chapter 26 we’ve got this excerpt from the Listener Song of Wars:
So, humans blame the Parshendi for shattering the plains (“the loss of that land”), but it actually wasn’t the Parshendi gods that did it?
And then finally a WoB: Brandon Sanderson wrote in a fan’s book, with an arrow pointing at the Shattered Plains, “Great magic unleashed here.”
I personally wonder if we can draw parallels here with the chasm-forming earthquake in Elantris, connected to the Reod. Devotion and Dominion were Splintered before it happened, but the earthquake wasn’t natural and it’s possible that Odium was involved in it.
OMG! Brandon is going to be Austin for a book signing. Actually, he will be in Houston, Austin and San Antonio from Wednesday to Saturday, respectively, with Friday and Saturday in San Antonio.
I’m going to Austin!!! Anyone who wants to ask a question to Brandon, send me a private message.
Also – I’ll be posting at the Bands of Mourning spoiler review the reason why I believe Brandon can write romance. Hopefully, I’ll be done by tonight. :-)
I’m so excited!!!
@79: cool! I’ll be at the Austin signing too!
See you there.
Yes, questions welcome. :-)
@79-80:
Please ask him if a Splintered Shard can be restored either naturally or through intervention.
Braid_Tug @80. Would you mind asking Brandon the following: “Does Dalinar’s ancestors (maternal or paternal) have a history of alcoholism?” Thanks.
Dalinar had a few years where he was an alcoholic. Elhokar started heavily drinking at the end of WoR.
Thanks,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
To supplement Andrew’s question, someone could ask if there is a history of autisms within either Dalinar or Shshshshsh’s families.
I’d also personally like to know, once and for all, what’s up with Adolin never-ending stream of failed courtships. It seems improbable not one woman would have want to pull off with his missteps if only for wealth, power and a handsome husband. So why?
#66 @Wetlandernw – cymatics depends on the geometry and material of the area being vibrated, and the type of vibration (wave shape, frequency spectrum, amplitude, etc.), and we don’t know much about the Shattered Plains pre-shattering. Perhaps the plains were a rougly circular basaltic upswelling. But what was the vibration? Something related to the Parshendi singing? It’s clear from the size of the event that the energy involved was huge. One other factor is the Oathgate. I’ve never experimented with cymatics where a portion of the area being vibrated was different from the surrounding material. The Oathgate didn’t shatter in the same way as the rest of the plains, and I would think that kind of discontinuity in the pattern would have other effects. Would be fun to test.
@73 Wetlandernw
Though Wetlandernw has withdrawn from this part of the discussion, it’s important to point out to other posters that Jasnah does, in fact, advocate for the complete abolition of Vorinism’s system of assigning roles in society based on gender. Check @68 Luke for the full passage where Jasnah comprehensively destroys the idea of societal distinctions between men and women.
@75 Braid_Tug
“Modern” and “Western” ideas aren’t truly modern or Western, any more than Newtonian physics is English. Long before they were widely held, those ideas existed in embryonic form, hidden under an official narrative that denied their existence. Abigail Adams was a zealous feminist long before women had the right to vote, and John Ball was preaching the equality of all men in the year 1381.
I understand that posters like Shallan. She is frequently cool, interesting, and smart. But being a hero is more than bravery or cleverness. It’s about caring about people beyond yourself, and deciding that they matter. Dalinar decides that his priceless Shardblade is worth less than “worthless” bridgemen. He defies the values of his society to do what’s right, rising above the limitations his culture tries to place up on him. Standing up to your society when it’s wrong- being willing to value people that you’ve heard all your life don’t matter- is what makes a hero.
You’re right, Braid_Tug. Every culture we’ve seen tries to limit individual choices. But it’s still the individual’s choice whether they’ll let themselves be limited. Dalinar, Jasnah, and Sister Pai (the ardent who dies denouncing the queen) all choose to defy Vorinism in their own way. If Shallan, like Szeth, decides to follow her society’s rules without regard for their merit, it’s because she doesn’t want to, not because she can’t.
When Shen comes to Kaladin and tells him that he’s a slave, Kaladin’s first reaction is to tell him how well he’s being treated and how he doesn’t need the spear that everyone else freely carries. Once he thinks, he gives Shen a spear. Just as Kaladin would not be a slave, so he would not be a master. Until Shallan learns that lesson, she’s not a hero, just an unusually brave and intelligent young woman who won’t grasp for the true meaning of right and wrong.
@83 Gepeto
Adolin doesn’t want to marry someone who just wants to marry the future highprince of Kholinar. He’s attracted to Shallan because she doesn’t fawn on him, ooh and aah during his war stories, and behave like a proper lighteyed lady of rank. So he vetoes the relationships that are only about power and political connections, where the woman he’s courting would stay with him no matter how much he screwed up. I suspect that some of his relationship idiocy is purposeful, and he’s consciously or subconsciously “breaking up” without having to tell the woman that it’s not working.
Adolin can have a successful relationship with Shallan because he doesn’t always have to be acting. Adolin dislikes the political game too much to do it in his public life, much less his private one. Once he stopped having to act the part of the ideal Vorin man, he could actually try being himself.
@85 and 75:
To be most specific, Jasnah’s audience for her book is women (and ardents). “Proper” men are not literate in her society. She doesn’t really speak of men, though we can surmise her position in the way she talks about society in general; however, she does say that women have no predetermined role.
As to the intellectual history of her world, I do not have much to say. We just do not possess the evidence. Yet, if we are looking for parallels between Jasnah’s interest in autonomy, progress, epistemology, and moral theory and their development in our world, then she is espousing in a very “Western” and “Modern” ideas. I study this sort of thing for a living, and I can point to many of her ideas that would not be surprising to a western philosopher in the last two centuries. In many ways, she is a post-Enlightenment thinker. Her positions are seen as controversial in Vorin society so we can assume that they are not commonly held in her world.
Of course her positions cannot be easily reduced to saying that she is in this modern school of thought or another since she holds views that were they from our world are derived from competing moral theories. Nevertheless, if someone asked me to read what we have read of Jasnah and that she was in our world, then I would say she has clearly read Kant, the American Pragmatists, and is struggling with whether deontology and consequentialism are correct.
None of that says that Mr. Sanderson intended or did not intend those philosophical parallels, but contemporary, western readers can easily find her ideas resonate in what they have read and heard in philosophy courses.
So, if I’m remembering this correctly, the slaves that Shallan inherited agreed to become slaves to work payoff debt that they had acquired. If she had simply paid for them to become free, wouldn’t she be getting them out of an obligation that they agree to? Instead, she employs them at a fantastic wage in order to help them meet their obligation, at which point, she will free them. No matter what they are called, I can’t really consider this situation slavery. It was a voluntary business arrangement on behalf of the “slaves”. Now, there are certainly situations of involuntary slavery, like Sadea’s camp, but the situation with Shallan is something completely different in my eyes. Or maybe I’m completely wrong…
@85: You can’t speak with any level of uncertainties as to why Adolin can’t secure himself a wife. As far as we were told, he rarely is the one to break-up the union: the girls are after what appears to be a few dates. Apart from Danlan, we have never seen Adolin actually end one of those relationships and every single former date he encounters afterwards hates him. He also claims in his own POV not knowing why it keeps falling and he approaches every single relationship thinking it will be the right one with a renewed naivety.
Anyhow, no matter what he does, one of those girls should, by all right, have clung to him just for promises of wealth. Based on what we have read, it never happened. 2-3 dates seems to be the maximum he went through before the girl dumps him.
I do think there is enough uncertainties into this situation to warrant asking the author. I also do not think the future books will provide a satisfactory answer which increases my desire to hear what the author has to say on the matter: it may be interesting, it may be boring, but it is my question to ask. If someone wants to ask it, then great, but if nobody wants to ask it, then fine. It is their questions to ask, but a few have asked if anyone had questions and this was mine.
You may think it is a boring question and this is your right. I happen to think many questions people ask are boring and this is my right, but I would never make it sound as if someone’s questions should not be asked… As far as my knowledge goes, it has never been asked before.
@87: your description sounds close to indentured servitude. Another common practice. But also one that could be abused. We don’t know what mix of criminal or debtor make up Shallan’s group.
@85: Dalinar did not exchange his blade in exchange for random bridgemen. He traded it in exchange for the men that saved his army & life. Only after Sadeas refused to sale them at the normal rate.
For your argument to work, Dalinar should have traded his sword for the bridge men prior to the battle. He felt their treatment was wrong. But he did not do anything about the situation until he made a promise.
I’m on my phone, so not the best answer.
@several – Shallan noted at one point that her new servants all had tattoos rather than brands:
So there’s a very strong possibility that none of them were criminals; they had merely gotten in debt beyond what they could pay, and were working off that debt – or possibly, their parents had gotten so far in debt that their children were still working it off. (Not the best parenting strategy, perhaps…) As noted, this is far more like what we usually call “indentured servants” than what we think of as “slaves.”
Part of the problem in most of our discussions of slavery, etc. is (as noted above – Braid_Tug, maybe?) our tendency to think in terms of modern definitions rather than in-world – or even real-world historical – terms. In Vorin society, there’s no such thing as “bankruptcy court” – if you owe more than you can pay, and you can’t find anyone to pay your debts for you (think Jushu Davar), you become a “slave” until you’ve earned your way out of debt. There are rules about your treatment, and you have to be paid, and you have to be allowed to pay down your slave debt. Frankly, it’s not that much different than most servants, except that you’re not free to pack up and leave if you don’t like your employer. We just tend to react badly against the term “slave” without considering what it means in context.
@dptullus
Regarding Shallan and her slaves, in this particular in world example I cannot see a path for her to take that would be right from your point of view. She said they could run and she would not pursue. She asked for their service, not demanded. You say she should have treated them like people, but isn’t giving somebody options essentially doing that? The only thing she didn’t offer is to pay the slave debt of strangers with no real incentive to treat her kindly, using money she had no access to until and unless she reached her destination. Slavery is wrong and evil, but in that particular instance it seems unreasonable to condemn her at this time. If she were to employ slave labor in her later dealings or failed to honor her agreements with her current charges then her actions, her pattern of actions stand to be judged more harshly.
On shipping and Brandon’s ability to write romance in the wake of BoM, Wax and Steris are wonderful together, and they come from quite an unexpected place. Rarely do you see in narrative fiction a romance that starts from such a cold and stiff place. Mostly you see one of two flavors, love at first sight or hate and passion. Even the ones where 2 people are thrown together in situations of extreme peril. The key is heightened emotional states leading to romance. When Wax and Steris met there wasn’t so much as a spark. Their affection was born of mutual acknowledgement of each other’s skills, strengths and more importantly their weaknesses. Wayne and MeLaan’s romance was played for laughs but there are still profound and touching moments in their budding relationship. Many in the fandom seem to think he nailed the romance aspects in that novel, giving them confidence that he has the chops to make for an interesting read going forward. At least that’s the sense I’m getting. On the ship I prefer Adolin/Shallan with Kaladin as the super friend and they be the 3 amigos, yet I would not be terribly upset if it doesn’t fall out that way.
I have a question for Brandon if any of you guys going to Austin wanna ask it.
All humanity in the Cosmere evolved from Yolen, yet Preservation and Ruin said they created Humanity on Scadrial. Were they working based on the Yolen blueprint and simply added their aspects into the mix or do all humans in the Cosmere have the Preservation/Ruin mix in their Spiritual DNA?
It says in the Ars Arcanum at the end of BoM that Lerasium or Atium can be used to make another set of 16 metals. Malatium, the so-called eleventh metal, is simply one of Atium’s 16. Since both Ati and Leras are dead it seems unlikely that we will get to see any of their metals in use but will we at least get to see a chart showing what those sets would be as well as what they’d do when burned or used as a Feruchemical store? Also, does Sazed have a metal and/or a Shardpool or did he just move into the digs of his predecessors?
@91 EvilMonkey on human origins, Yolen, &c – Maybe this WoB would be helpful:
That doesn’t absolutely confirm that non-Scadrians don’t have some Preservation and Ruin in their sDNA – maybe all humans in the Cosmere have aspects of the whole Adonalsium in them, which would include Ruin and Preservation. But maybe that’s what you’re looking for.
She@92
That’s perfect. Thanks.
@89 & @90. In this instance, I don’t think it matters if some of Shallan’s slaves were in that situation because of a crime. She never differentiates between them and treats them all equally.
The fact of the matter is that she did not force them to stay and is helping them to become free, something they would not be able to accomplish on their own. Indentured servitude is certainly open to abuse, just look at Sadeas, but I do not believe Shallan is guilty of it.
Nick31 @84
I like the idea that the Listener’s sang loud and long enough to set up a resonance that shattered the plain. I can’t even begin to fathom the why of it though. Were they trying to destroy that particular Oathgate or human armies in the area?
@95 Ways: Maybe it had something to do when their escaping from their gods, which also likely happened about the time of the Final Desolation? Total shot in the dark.
Me again!
The comments have become very deep and serious so I hope you all forgive me if I return to more frivolous matters: shipping wars!
Now, a caveat: I am not a fan of romance/love as depicted in films and books. I’ve always found the insertion of a romance to a sci fi or fantasy novel to be a lazy way of creating tension. Hence, I was slightly put off when Sanderson wrote in the betrothal and then almost fell off my chair in despair when Shallan and Kaladin started to think things about each other.
Anyways, things are as they are so when in Rome… Shalladolin FTW! I am firmly on this ship but Shalladin also has certain points in its favour. For me, the question is whether Sanderson will go with opposites attract or like-calls-to-like. The permutations are endless: Shallan could find a cheeriness in Adolin that she never had in her life or she could respond to the familiar darkness she sees in Kaladin. Or Shallan could be attracted to Kaladin’s confidence and desire to protect. Or she could find a kindred spirit in Adolin’s sense of responsibility.
I sense that Sanderson is setting up some kind of love triangle. Adolin is going to get in trouble for Sadeas, he’s starting to feel odd around Radiant Shallan, which could cause disequilibrium, Shallan and Kaladin are clearly affected by their time together in the chasms.
My desire is actually that all three of them enter a deep yet platonic relationship. Why it gotta be love? If Jasnah had not suggested a betrothal, would Shallan and Adolin have invested this much time in each other? The three will most certainly be carrying the story as it progresses and will it merely be a distraction, both to the tale and the reader, to have any of them worrying about who is in love with whom?
For someone who says she does not like romance, I have put in an inordinate amount of thought into this. Damn you, Sanderson!
@@@@@88 Gepeto
Actually, I find the question of Adolin’s hilarious romantic failures quite interesting, as well as entertaining. Though I enjoy random speculation, I don’t really have any clear idea how he manages to systematically wipe out his romantic prospects so quickly. I hope Sanderson answers the question later, but you should definitely ask him if he doesn’t. Just because we disagree about almost everything else doesn’t mean I dislike Adolin’s romantic hijinks, or the relationship between him and Shallan, which has the potential to be one of Sanderson’s best.
@@@@@90 Wetlandernw
For the record, I’m also opposed to indentured servitude, especially inherited indentured servitude, which takes away even the thin excuse of “personal responsibility” from the system of enslavement for debt. The line between indentured servitude and slavery is often painfully thin, as is the line between being a regular servant in a Vorin society and an indentured servant. If you’re low-ranking enough not to have the right of travel, you can’t legally leave your lord’s lands even if you quit, so you’re in his power whatever you do.
Shallan’s father beats, tortures, and maims servants for years, and there are absolutely no legal consequences for any of it. When the highprince sends his bastard to investigate, he is only looking into the death of Shallan’s mother, not the ongoing, open abuse of worthless darkeyes. That freedom to pack up and leave would be awfully nice for them, but Vorin society reserves the right of travel for real people.
@@@@@91 EvilMonkey, @@@@@94 Jason_UmmaMacabre
The only options Shallan gives her slave are those that benefit her, and the choice to be “free” to die in a wilderness. If you want to treat people with respect and dignity, you give them real choices, including the option not to serve you. Later, when Shallan could free all of her slaves with the stipend Sebarial pays her, there’s no evidence I’ve found to suggest that she does so. Being a hero means, at the least, going out of the way to help people who aren’t you or your immediate family. Being a decent person means not owning slaves, no matter what you call them or how nicely you treat them.
EvilMonkey, I was also surprised and impressed by Sanderson’s writing of the romance between Wax and Steris. Instead of Slap Slap Kiss Kiss, we got a real relationship that developed over time and included friendship, partnership, and affection. Shallan and Adolin have the beginning of that kind of slow-building, meaningful romance, while Kaladin and Shallan have the kind of tense relationship developed under stress that only works in bad fiction.
@91 EvilMonkey: Good thoughts on BoM. I see many of the same things going on in some of the other relationships he’s written, but BoM really brought it out nicely without a lot of extraneous snarking or other stuff. It was lovely to see both Wax and Steris making sacrifices for each other and trying to make it work, even while not in love.
@97 Malaysian: I get where you’re coming from! “For someone who says she does not like romance, I have put in an inordinate amount of thought into this. Damn you, Sanderson!” That’s exactly it for me. I also hope that Sanderson wouldn’t set up a love triangle as a cheap tension-generating device. (That would pretty much kill any satisfaction I might get out of seeing my preferred ship sail.) But then in his other books he usually does a fair job of playing romance for character development – as a force that spurs people to change or understand themselves better, and that plays characters’ strengths and weaknesses off of each other. I’d be surprised if a Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin love triangle turned out to just be an angst-spawning distraction. (Though I could see it being that way at times…)
Now that there’s already been all this shipping bait for the three of them, I can’t hope for an entirely platonic relationship anymore, but I do hope that some of our other unmatched characters stay that way. It delighted me in Bands of Mourning to see Marasi be happy and fulfilled as a single woman, not trying to pursue other men. It would also be neat to see Jasnah choose a life like that.
@98 dptullos: It confuses me slightly that commentators are consistently characterizing Shallan and Adolin’s relationship as slow-building. and now comparing it to Wax and Steris’s. I will acknowledge that Kaladin and Shallan’s interest in each other developed quickly under stress (though I’d argue that there were other things going on, too), and that Shallan and Adolin’s relationship has developed more slowly. However, Shallan and Adolin were attracted to each other from the beginning, and they continue to pursue the relationship partly out of that attraction. There was an element of love at first sight in their interactions that there definitely wasn’t for Wax and Steris. Essentially, I agree that Shallan and Adolin’s relationship has developed more slowly than Shallan and Kaladin’s, but it still lacks the organicity and gradualness of Wax and Steris’s. Maybe Kaladin and Shallan are interested in each other partly because of a superficial connection under stress, but then Adolin and Shallan are interested partly because of a superficial physical attraction.
I’m not trying to diss the ship; I think Adolin and Shallan are more or less on the way to a good, healthy relationship. But I hesitate to characterize it as “slow-building”, and particularly to compare it to Wax and Steris’s romance that developed over more than a year of slowly coming to appreciate and love each other.
Dp@98
An unalligned slave in the Shattered Plains has about as much choice as one in the wilderness. A different choice but the options are still limited. Take Gaz for example. She sets him free in the wilderness and he has no protection from those who wish to kill him over his debts. But setting him free on the Plains he deserted from leaves him positionless, no way to earn money for who is gonna hire a deserter regardless of his skills? Employment with Shallan represents a second chance to correct the behavior that landed him in the stewpot in the first place, all while paying off his debt in his lifetime as opposed to other slave owners that would keep him indebted for a couple generations.
Now lets say Shallan forces freedom on her charges the moment she steps on the Plains. She loses the services of her servants but she doesn’t care about that. She’s set up with gainful employment so she can get more. Those servants will have their freedom but little else. Questions will be asked. Why did she get rid of these people so fast? What is wrong with them that is so drastic that she got rid of them that soon? The suspicion alone may leave them out in the cold. They are free to become beggars, or free to take service with a less scrupulous employer. Now I suppose she could have paid their debt completely off and still kept them in her service but the reality is that she is paying what she can afford from her own resources. She isn’t rich, just high status. Furthermore, if she were inclined to pay off debts of people she only just met with no services rendered it seems she would have to do it for every slave she sees or count herself morally bankrupt. 10 houses full of slaves, owned by Highprinces with more money than God. She would have to buy out them all. Impossible.
Dp, you are pissed at the system and at Shallan for being a part of it. I’m not arguing in favor of the system, for there can be no argument to support slavery. All I’m saying is Shallan’s actions regarding her slaves is the closest one can get to true manumission in her society. To change the system completely she needs help and her current employer seems like he’d be the guy to further along systemic change. Plus, in about 2 years (if the world lasts that long) she won’t be a slaveowner anymore. Her charges will have had their slave debt paid off with a healthy recommendation for further gainful employment should they wish to leave her service.
@98: It seems as if I misinterpreted your intentions in your previous message, so I apologize. I did not take you disagreed with me because we previously disagreed on other aspects of the story, I took it you though it wasn’t worth asking because you felt we already knew the answer. So was my understanding, I am glad to read I was wrong.
I personally wished to have a solid one from the author himself. If he is to tackle it going into next book, then he will say so, if not, then I foresee no reasons for him not to answer, it doesn’t seem spoiler-y, just a good to know fact for character building.
Then again, it is up to those who will actually be at the signing to choose which questions they want to ask: it is their question to ask, not mine. I only hope someone is as curious as I am to ask it or ask one of the several Adolin-related questions I have crafted over the years. This being said, I wouldn’t want anyone to ask questions they have no personal interest into. The fact we all tackled different aspects of the story with equal passion is telling of how great it is.
@99: I think a lot of people are hoping for Jasnah to remain single as pushing her into a romantic relationship seems to sprout more from a modern point of view stating an individual can only be happy if it has a partner than a true need to have one. I personally enjoy this aspect of Jasnah: the fact she genuinely chose to remain single in a world where it is shun upon. Having her find her “one true love” would be not only anti-climatic, it would more or less nullify her previous stand.
As for Adolin and Shallan, yes their initial attraction was physical: when they first met, they are automatically drawn to each other for rather superficial reasons. His hair, his smile, her hair, her uniqueness (has anyone else noticed both have unusual hair coloring, both have been told how undesirable it was and both are automatically drawn to each other’s unusual hair color?). Neither of them actually expected to like each other or for the relationship to ever evolve pass this initial attraction.
The true test came after their first date. I’d like to point neither of them expected the like each other: Adolin was going through his boring cassette while Shallan was trying to be poised as Jasnah would. Their façade cracks down when Shallan drops her smelly bomb and Adolin genuinely responded by letting his playful side emerge, the one he has been trying to supress in order to be the “perfect Alethi model boy”.
And then he laughed.
Shallan, the little abused girl who grew up in a bleak sad family fell in love with this laughter, this natural good-willed spontaneous laugher. I wouldn’t say she loves Adolin, not yet, but she does love when he laughs.
She expected to meet a handsome, but stern, angry, cold young man, instead she met a friendly, kind, playful young man with a curious eye for art.
He expected to meet a pretty, but stern, arrogant, prickly young woman, instead he met a natural, curious, spunky young woman who took time explaining him things instead of taking him for an idiot.
He responded by confiding in her his fears, worries over the Sadeas incident, relieving himself from some of the pressure he has been feeling. She responded by confiding in him Jasnah’s plans and her worries over the Parshmen relieving herself from an equivalent pressure.
They trusted each other. They may not have shared their deepest secrets, but they have shared something important for both of them.
So yes, I’d say their relationship is much more than a physical attraction. It is about two young people who have both been forced to be someone they were not: Shallan by her family, Adolin by social conventions who found in each other a person they could allowed their true self to shine.
Therefore, watching them progressively learning how to lower their facades, how to be themselves around each other indeed makes a slow progression.
As for Kaladin and Shallan, had they not been trust into a chasm by pure happenstance, they would have never even gave each other more than a second glance. Nobody would talk of Kaladin/Shallan if not for this one moment where they told each other their past. Their relationship was precipitated by events as they were forced to share one of their deepest secrets in order to survive and they did it through a lot of slap-slap.
They didn’t genuinely open-up out of a desire to get to know each other or out of true interest, they merely did because they needed to.
I personally do not think Kaladin/Shallan have laid anything resembling the basis of a lasting long-term relationship into which they would both be happy, but I have seen Adolin/Shallan do it, tentatively. I have no idea how resembling it is to Wax/Steris as I have yet to read SoS and BoM (nearly done with Codex).
@98 There’s no evidence the stipend she gets would be big enough to free the slaves in one fell swoop. I doubt it had provisions for capital expenditures like freeing slaves.
I don’t think you’re being fair to Shallan or rather large numbers of people in history.
I have to start by saying that I probably won’t be able to post as consistently as I have in the last few weeks. I’m starting a new job, and it’s going to be crazy busy for a while. So if I don’t respond to a post, it’s not because I don’t think it’s worth answering, or that it doesn’t raise valid points. I’m simply running around like a chicken with its head cut off, trying to get used to a new job in a new city.
@99 sheesania
You’re completely right about Wax and Steris’s relationship being orders of magnitude better than anything else Sanderson has written. Shallan/Adolin is not nearly as well written, but I think it is surprisingly good and has the potential to be better. Their relationship started with physical attraction, but it build and developed from there, which is much better than the Hate/Love transition so beloved of bad authors. Still not Wax/Steris, though.
@100 EvilMonkey
All good points. I’ve come to the conclusion that I am largely upset by the fact that Shallan isn’t upset. If her internal narrative reflected the belief that this is merely the best of a set of bad choices, I’d be okay with that. There are all kinds of legal problems and practical difficulties associated with technical “freedom”, and Shallan’s choice might be acceptable if she thought more about how she wanted to simply free them, but couldn’t do so without landing them in a worse situation. That kind of mindset would make me more forgiving, but I just don’t see it.
Congratulations DP. Good luck and take the time u need. We ain’t goin nowhere.
@12 Wetlandernw, We knew of Shallan’s most traumatic background experience, her mother’s killing in self defense, from chapter 10 (Red Carpet once White).
@101 Gepeto: I’m also hoping that Sanderson won’t try to explain Jasnah’s singleness by revealing that she’s lesbian or asexual or something along that line of things, or that she had some sexual trauma in her past. Perhaps that would be interesting for her as a character, but again, it would undermine her choice to remain single – it wouldn’t look like a real choice anymore. It would tend to imply that singleness needs to be “justified” somehow by special circumstances, and it wouldn’t be a valid, rational choice otherwise.
I agree with pretty much everything you say about Adolin and Shallan’s relationship. (I did in fact notice how they had this connection over hair color. I guess it struck me since my hair is also a color that marks me as foreign in the place where I live, and I know several others whose lives have been complicated by foreign-looking hair. One associate of mine actually dyed his hair for a while before deciding that it made him look too much like a spy!) Your analysis of their first date is spot-on IMO. Their relationship has been developing naturally, for good reasons, at a reasonable speed. My main point (which didn’t come out very well!) was that there has been an attraction from the beginning, physical and superficial at first, but then from genuinely good character qualities and personality. They liked each other very early on, and they have been pursuing each other because they like each other.
Wax and Steris’ relationship is quite a contrast – they were not interested in each other at all at first and agreed to pursue marriage primarily to help their families. There was no initial physical attraction, smoothing the way to an attraction to personality, in turn smoothing the way to a deeper relationship. Once they did get interested in each other, it was purely because they had made commitments, spent a lot of time together, and gotten to see what each other were really like. There weren’t any feelings of love helping them along. Shallan and Adolin reached that point of being interested in each other much more quickly.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with how Shallan and Adolin’s relationship has progressed. I just wouldn’t call it “slow-building” along the line of Wax and Steris’s because Shallan and Adolin quickly became interested in each other. They’ve had those feelings all along, pushing them to continue the relationship. Or maybe I can put it this way: for Shallan and Adolin, romantic attraction came first and then deeper appreciation of each other’s character. For Wax and Steris, appreciation of each other’s character came first and then romance. For Shallan and Kaladin, on the other hand, it’s sort of muddy and mixed up.
Speaking of Shallan and Kaladin – we are reading those scenes quite differently. I don’t think either of them were forced, exactly, to reveal secrets about themselves. They both chose to confront each other and criticize each other’s behavior, and as they talked it out they chose to reveal things about themselves in order to come to an understanding. I should also note that several of the things they talked about came up earlier in chapter 68, when they talked about Adolin. Being chucked into a chasm certainly helped their relationship to progress, but they were giving each other second glances even before it happened. There are more things I could say, but again, we’re reading this quite differently so I’m not sure if we can productively discuss it.
STBLST @105 – Certainly we knew about her mother’s death, but Chapter 10 does not make it clear who killed her mother. It’s hard to go back now and reread it with “unknowing” eyes, but many, many people read that initially as Father killing Mother to defend Shallan. Even the bit about it being “her fault” could easily be construed as “it was in her defense” rahter than “she did it.” It’s not made clear until the very end of the book that Shallan herself was the one who killed her mother. At the very least, it was still ambiguous at this point in the story. No matter what you believed to have happened, it wasn’t yet confirmed.
@106: Shallan and Kaladin needed to cooperate in order to find a way out of the chasm. It was obvious early on this was never going to happen until they wash their dirty clothes.
They had to stop fighting and unite their strengths if they were to survive. To do so, they required sharing aspects of their pasts as it was impossible for them to acknowledge each other until they did so.
Hence, the circumstances surrounding their confessions aren’t natural nor normal: nothing says they would have shared if not for them. It doesn’t speak of a deeper connection, simply of needs being more important than inhibition. This is why I don’t personally put much credeance into the chasm scenes as I do not read them as the bloosoming of a new love
As for them giving each other second glances, I do not agree they were. While Kaladin stared at Shallan’s back on one or two occasions (Which doesn’t mean romantic interest, men will lear at a pretty woman’s backside any day without having any further thought. Alternatively, women will sometimes do the same.), Shallan has never spend one thought nor glance towards Kaladin. They were mostly irritated by each other, though Shallan tend to ignore Kaladin more often than not while Kaladin watched Shallan mostly due to him thinking she may harm Adolin. I see nothing romantic into these passages as nothing in them transpire a desire to built in a relationship.
However, if your reading tells you these few passages imply an unconscious interest, than I agree we aren’t likely to discuss this in a productive manner as I am unlikely to agree.
@107 Wetlandernw. You are correct, of course, that rereading chapters having already completed reading the book will make the allusions in those chapters stand out more clearly. However, there are sufficient indications in Chapter 10 (Red Carpet once White) that Shallan is her mother’s slayer. She calls herself a monster and murderer. If she had only witnessed her father killing his wife to defend Shallan from mother’s murderous intentions, why would she label herself that way? She may see the incident as somehow her fault, but to call herself a monster? Then, again, why would this incident be erased from her working memory if her later deliberate killing of her violent and out-of-control – but now helpless father was not so erased? I suspect that the unwillingness of some first readers to draw the correct inference is due to the uncommon situation where a leading character is put in a position of killing both her parents. For me, the more dramatic and shocking scene is where Shallan strangles her still paralyzed father whom she has poisoned in order to save herself and her siblings from a possibly recovered and vengeful father. However, I recognize that an 11 year old would be more seriously traumatized by a mother coming to kill her and being killed by her, instead, than the deliberate action of a 17 year old aimed at saving herself and siblings.
A point of clarification:
EvilMonkey@100 – it appears you have grouped Gaz in with the slave conversation. Gaz belonged to the group of armed men that were former deserters and that ultimately became Shallan’s bodyguard/soldiers. To be clear, Shallan offers immediate clemency from past crimes and freedom from past debts to all of her soldiers that wish to stay with her (as soon as she can secure it with the king). She does not offer nor provide any such assurance to the slaves she took from Tvlakv. She keeps their debts and has them serve her as a way to work the debt off.
To be clear, each of the deserters had forfeited their lives as their “debt” for leaving. In addition, they probably owed money as well (Gaz recalls that his debt was 80 broams). Shallan arranges for all of the desserters to have their debts immediately erased by the king in Chapter 38. She does not request the same kindness for the slaves she took from Tvlakv.
Shallan needed people to serve her in the capacity that she desired (guard and servant). She had the king immediately free her soldiers/guards because she wanted to. She did not have the king immediately free her slaves/servants because she didn’t want to. Nothing wrong with acknowledging that she chose who in her service could be immediately free of their debts and who could not. That is exactly what she did.
STBLST @109 – Re: Chapter 10, it was quite possible to read that in a couple of ways: one, that she was thinking of her father as the monster; two, that she thought herself a monster because of what she did that precipitated the death of her mother.
This was my first beta-read for Brandon. I have an advantage here, in that I can go back and look at what we discussed on each chapter, when we had no knowledge of what was coming. Obviously, we discussed this: Who was the “monster”? Why Father? Why Shallan? Why were Mother and the friend killed? From reviewing that discussion, it’s pretty clear that there was at the time too much we didn’t know. Some of us suspected the possibility that Shallan had killed her mother, and even the suggestion was a shock. It was NOT confirmed; it was a theory only.
As to her father, on the first read of this chapter we don’t know that she really killed him. That’s Chapter 73. She said she did back in TWoK, but in such a way that it could just as easily mean that she considered it her fault her father died. Just as, in fact, she could have considered it her fault her mother died and thought herself a monster, without actually having done the deed.
It’s hard to separate what we knew then from what we know now – which is exactly why I keep going back to the beta spreadsheets and reviewing not only the text, but the discussion as it developed. I think it’s fascinating to note the hints that built up theories and expectations, and to specifically note the foreshadowing of things we fully accept now but didn’t know at the time.
@108 Gepeto: I probably wasn’t clear in my other posts – I don’t think either that they shared about themselves purely out of interest in each other, connection, &c. There were certainly other factors. But I still wouldn’t say that they shared with each other simply out of a need to cooperate to stay alive. I don’t think Shallan needed to spend half a page describing her experience of pain, or that they needed to tell each other about their pasts during the highstorm, just in order to survive.
Indeed, the first time Kaladin accuses Shallan of having had an easy life at the end of chapter 70, she doesn’t see the need to reveal anything about herself. She just points out the contradictions in what he’s been accusing her of, and this is enough make Kaladin start grudgingly trusting her. When the “it was the most beautiful thing he’d seen in his life” sequence happens, and she actually does open herself up, they were already cooperating and had a plan. Kaladin was just being stubbornly pessimistic, and Shallan was trying to get him to cheer up and stop misinterpreting her. It wasn’t necessary for survival; they could follow the plan whether the bridgeman was grumpy or not. But Shallan evidently trusted him enough to be willing to reveal something (if only to get him to shut up about her presumed innocence and stop being grumpy). So no, Shallan didn’t tell Kaladin all that because she cared about him or wanted to confide in him. But neither was it just because she had to do it to survive.
As for the backstory-telling during the highstorm: again, this wasn’t necessary for survival. We don’t even see them in the chasms after the storm. But it also wasn’t purely relational – they started talking to distract themselves from the storm, and at that point all the hormones, excitement, and danger were probably playing a role, too. Yet it nevertheless speaks to a certain level of trust that they were willing to reveal that much to each other.
To sum up: I don’t think Shallan and Kaladin shared with each other in the chasms just in order to survive, but neither do I think they did out of pure concern and interest. There was a level of trust and connection that allowed them to open up, but ultimately they did in order to set Kaladin straight in one case and distract themselves in another. What’s more significant to me is how they reacted to what they learned about each other. Even then, though, I see the main impact of the chasm scenes being that Shallan and Kaladin are – all romance aside – finally starting to respect, understand, and like each other. There’s a bit of attraction going on too, but not much and it’s not the focus.
As for second glances: Again, I don’t think I was clear in my earlier post! I realize now that you were probably talking about “second glances” in a romantic sense, whereas I was talking about relationship in general. I don’t read their interactions pre-chasms as involving any romantic interest, conscious or unconscious, and I don’t think they were trying to build a relationship. But I do think they were still trying to figure each other out. My point is that they could have eventually come to the understanding they do without the chasm scenes, because the things they argue about in these scenes (Shallan’s intentions toward Adolin, Kaladin’s grudges, optimism vs. pessimism, &c) had come up before and would likely come up again. But the chasms definitely pushed things along in a certain direction.
Heh. Another entertaining thread. I’m almost caught up though! Woo-hoo!
I love the idea that we can place modern values & mores on fictional characters operating in a very, very different set of social standards. Because there’s certainly no logical fallacies involved there! Heh.
All that nonsense aside, this was absolutely one of the best chapters in the book. I don’t get choked up often (I’m a man! I don’t cry over nothing! Well…except when I was reading Sirius Black’s death scene & aftermath chapters aloud to my daughter over the last week. Oh, and the last time I read a book involving any death whatsoever. But that’s it! I totally promise!) but this does it to me – even reading the reread in prep to read the actual chapter.
Recognizing it when you are proven wrong, and accepting that knowledge and learning from it – these are skills I laud. It’s absolutely wonderful to see in Kaladin – the beginnings of that understanding that he doesn’t know everything, and that he needs to recognize what he doesn’t know in order to have a more correct perception of the world…it’s just everything. It’s wonderful.
Very very late to this thread – but I had some thoughts on Shallan the slaveowner that seem to fit here. I didn’t see anyone discussing how debt slavery even works in Alethkar. In particular, if you sell yourself into slavery to pay your debts, and you end up in Sebarial’s mansion working for Shallan, who owns your debt?
I don’t know, but I picture this as a straightforward securities arrangement. (If I tried to use in-world currency units, I’d screw them up probably worse than Veil does, so I’m going to use US dollars here.) Say you owe $50000 and, being a minimum wage darkeyed laborer, you’re only good for $15000 / year, which you can barely live on, never mind paying down your debt. So you indenture yourself for $50000, which involves somebody paying off your creditors and then “owning” you for that much value.
Now they sell you to Tvlakv. Tvlakv buys you for $50000 in expectation that you will pay it back, in spheres or in labor. That’s actually a bad investment though, because the risk (you dying, you running away, you costing him in medical care or simply in room + board) is nonzero, and the reward is breaking even. So obviously Tvlakv gets you at a discount for net present value – which doesn’t really make sense for the original owner, who just lost money. Or, your slave debt accrues interest and/or expenses over time. I’ll assume the latter as that’s the only thing that makes sense to me economically.
So now we assume your slave debt is not a fixed balance to pay off, but accrues interest and living expenses, which can make it look like pretty much an impossible trap, doesn’t it? Who could ever dig themselves out from that? Just so. If you couldn’t make ends meet and keep up with your debt payments as a free man, it’s not like doing the same as a slave is going to be much easier. So we’re back to wondering what’s in it for the indentured servant. I guess maybe at some point you have little choice in the matter. No bankrupcy court, as a previous poster pointed out. Creditors aren’t just going to forgive you unprovoked. They want their money, you’re unable to pay, bam, you get an offer you can’t refuse. It is an unpleasant situation by modern standards, to be sure, but the alternative, bankrupcy, has its own problems. So.
Back to Shallan. She buys you from Tvlakv. Presumably by now your tab is well over $50000, what with the interest and living expenses, unless you’ve been able to work some of it off, which seems unlikely if you’re hanging out in a wagon trundling toward the Shattered Plains. So now you owe Shallan, say, $70000. She’s willing to pay you generous wages in order to help you work it off over the course of a couple of years. And you gotta admit, for a minimum wage dude, the ability to pay down $70000 (plus expenses) in 2 years, and still have pocket money, is a heck of a deal.
But she could just forgive the debt immediately, if she had read those Abolitionist pamphlets. It’s her debt, after all. She’s the one you owe. And it’s just numbers on a ledger. It would only mean she’d be out that $70000 per head that she paid Tvlakv, which you have to admit, is real money. (Oh, maybe there’s also a small title fee, paid to the state to fund the clerks or ardents who do the paperwork, but whatever.)
Oh wait… she didn’t pay Tvlakv, did she? She just took you and your friends from him, feeling like, for whatever reason, she was entitled to you. The $50000 per head that he paid to assume somebody else’s debt, Shallan got for free, much like an infamous pair of boots. (Yes, I know, when confronted, she chose to make good on those.) She owns a $70000 asset that she did not pay for, and she could give it back to you (or to Tvlakv, for that matter) if she wanted to. She doesn’t, though. She has decided that human trafficking is morally despicable, but owning your debt is just fine, so long as she treats you like human beings.
Given she’s not out any actual money by cancelling her servants’ debts, it’s hard to make an argument that she is not in a position to do so. Weirdly, in practical terms, it actually wouldn’t even cost her anything! Following her conscience, she already overpays you explicitly so you can pay down your debt. If she just straight up forgave the debts with the stroke of a pen, and offered to employ you at a fair wage, her balance sheet would end up in pretty much exactly the same place. The only two differences: 1) she would give up the right to change her mind in the future about your wage arrangement; and 2) you’d be free to put in your two weeks’ notice (or not) and go seek your fortune.
Yeah, so, I guess I’m on both sides of this months-old argument, really:
– No, “slavery” here is not at all like slavery as we know it today; calling it that seems to cause a lot of knee-jerk moral response only lightly grounded in the facts. It’s really more like a mortgage, but with yourself as collateral, and a commitment to work directly for your debtor. But,
– Yes, it is completely in Shallan’s power to free her slaves any day of the week, if she’s really as disgusted by Tvlakv’s line of work as she lets on. And also,
– No, I’m not on board with Shallan’s moral right to summarily take away Tvlakv’s property without paying for it, on the grounds that at least she’s a benevolent slaveowner. I feel like that’s trying to have it both ways. Buying and selling a slave “mortgage” is not categorically different to just owning one (not bought, oh no, that would be dirty, no, just seized at the point of a Shardblade). Either she’s on board with all of that, or she isn’t.