Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we spent a somber evening in the Davar home for the last of Shallan’s flashbacks. This week, we’ll finally get Kaladin off that cliff he’s been hanging on, as the final highstorm before the Weeping goes surreal on our young protagonists.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 74: Striding the Storm
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: In a cubby, In a chasm, Excavated with a Blade…
Symbology: Spears, Vedel, Palah
IN WHICH Kaladin is pulled to safety; the storm pounds the plateaus and the water rises abruptly; bodies float by; strange things are seen in the storm; stories of past traumas are exchanged; the Stormfather comes; a Realization occurs; Kaladin is condemned; spheres are now charged, and silence falls between the two; the storm ends, and sleep descends.
Quote of the Week
“Syl,” Kaladin said, looking back to the face. The plateaus in front of him had vanished. It was just him and the face. He had to ask. It hurt him, but he had to. “What have I done to her?”
YOU HAVE KILLED HER. The voice shook everything. It was as if… as if the shaking of the plateau and his own body made the sounds for the voice.
“No,” Kaladin whispered. “No!”
IT HAPPENED AS IT ONCE DID, the Stormfather said, angry. A human emotion. Kaladin recognized it. MEN CANNOT BE TRUSTED, CHILD OF TANAVAST. YOU HAVE TAKEN HER FROM ME. MY BELOVED ONE.
The face seemed to withdraw, fading.
“Please!” Kaladin screamed. “How can I fix it? What can I do?”
IT CANNOT BE FIXED. SHE IS BROKEN. YOU ARE LIKE THE ONES WHO CAME BEFORE, THE ONES WHO KILLED SO MANY OF THOSE I LOVE. FAREWELL, SON OF HONOR. YOU WILL NOT RIDE MY WINDS AGAIN.
Oh, agony. I think it was this point where I slowly, reluctantly, began to believe that she really might be gone for good—although my response in the beta read was on the order of, “No. I refuse to accept this. Syl is not dead. She can’t be.” The “weeping” Kaladin had heard still gave me hope, but this… this is the Stormfather saying that it’s all over. I think it was also here that I began to wonder if Kaladin was going to die by the end of the book. Without Syl to make him a Radiant, what forward path did he have?
Commentary
This is another chapter where I’m having to forcibly restrain myself from copying whole pages of text, because there are Important Things to be noted. Such as this:
A crash of thunder, accompanied by a blinding flash of light, sent him stuttering. Shallan pulled more tightly against him, fingers digging into his arm. The light left an afterimage in his eyes.
Storms. He could swear that afterimage was a face, horribly twisted, the mouth pulled open. The next lightning bolt lit the flood just outside with a sequence of crackling light, and it showed water bobbing with corpses. Dozens of them pulled past in the current, dead eyes toward the sky, many just empty sockets. Men and Parshendi.
So, two things. One, What is with that afterimage? That’s creepy. And, as noted, surreal. I can only surmise… and I can’t even make a coherent statement about the potential answers. I just hope we learn someday.
And two: What’s with the bodies? I assume that these are the corpses from the most recent fighting, the day they fell into the chasm. I also assume that the empty eye sockets mean that those people were killed with Shardblades, which means Eshonai had to have been involved. But I thought they weren’t doing that any more, unless there are other Parshendi out there that no one knows about. I’m so confused…
Then there’s this bit:
Light came from above, too steady to be lightning. Something was glowing on the plateau. Something that moved. It was hard to see, since water streamed off the side of the plateau above, falling in a sheet before their refuge. He swore he saw an enormous figure walking up there, a glowing inhuman form, followed by another, alien and sleek. Striding the storm. Leg after leg, until the glow passed.
As Alcatraz would say, “Gak!” What. Are. These.
I can’t quite tell from the description if there are two huge beings with multiple legs, or multiple bipedal forms, or multiple beings with multiple legs. Either way, GAK! I have no informed opinion on what these might be, other than perhaps some of the Unmade. I don’t know if that even makes sense, but it’s the only thing I can think of. The Heralds are normal-sized people, and all the other humanoid species we’ve met on Roshar seem to be roughly the same size. So what are these enormous glowing figures?
The odd thing is that I don’t actually remember wondering about it too hard on previous reads—I would note them, but then forget about them in the avalanche of Things Happening. I even went back to look in the beta discussion—we were all so caught in the Stormfather conversation that we didn’t even mention this. A question to ask Brandon, I guess.
Moving right along: We all know the stories that Kaladin and Shallan tell one another, but this is the first time either of them have told the story to anyone who didn’t live through it with them. (Side note: I love the way they need the conversation when it’s all darkness and lightning, but once Shallan’s sphere is recharged and they have a steady light, the need to talk fades away. It’s very real.)
Kaladin is habitually careful: he doesn’t ever say that he killed the Shardbearer, because that’s gotten him in trouble before; and he doesn’t talk about Syl because he’s used to keeping her a secret, and because it’s a painful subject right now. So he tells Shallan enough to understand most of where he’s been. She reciprocates:
“My father was a violent, angry man,” Shallan said. “A murderer. I loved him. And I strangled him as he lay on the floor, watching me, unable to move. I killed my own father…”
And finally Kaladin understands something that he’s never really grasped before: it could have been So. Much. Worse.
Kaladin had thought his life terrible, but there was one thing he’d had, and perhaps not cherished enough: parents who loved him. Roshone had brought Damnation itself to Hearthstone, but at least Kaladin’s mother and father had always been there to rely upon.
What would he have done, if his father had been like the abusive, hateful man Shallan described? If his mother had died before his own eyes? What would he have done if, instead of living off Tien’s light, he had been required to bring light to the family?
Incidentally, given the wording of that last paragraph, I have to wonder what Shallan actually told him about her mother’s death. Clearly not that she herself had killed her mother in self-defense… so probably one of the various stories her father had given. Anything but the truth, on this subject.
For what it’s worth, I don’t believe that killing her father was ever part of the experience she locked up in the “Never Remember” part of her mind. For one thing, there’s no way to pretend to her three brothers (or the fiancée) that she didn’t do it. For another, she’s quite a bit older now, and has lived with enough horror that this doesn’t send her catatonic. So, while I’m sure she hasn’t talked about it with anyone outside those four people, I don’t think she did the selective amnesia thing with this. She deliberately avoided thinking about it, yes, but it didn’t send her into a blank stare when the thought crossed her mind.
And then Stormfather shows up.
Stormwatch
This is the last highstorm before the Weeping begins. The countdown is rapidly winding down; as has been the case for the last month of reread, there are only nine days left! Umm… Yeah.
Sprenspotting
Creepy spren: “red and violet and reminiscent of lightning.” Are these stormspren? I assume so—or perhaps stormspren and another, related spren. In any case, these just cannot be a good thing, all out and about in the highstorm. And another thing: what’s with the chanting out there in the storm? My first thought was the Parshendi, but why on earth would they come most of the way across the Plains, nearly to the warcamps themselves, to bond their stormspren? Are they out here doing maneuvers? Or is the chanting being done by those other… things?
Also, hello, mighty one. Who’s the biggest spren of all?
“Stormfather,” Kaladin said. Some named him Jezerezeh, Herald. This didn’t fit what Kaladin had heard of any Herald, however. Was the Stormfather a spren, perhaps? A god? It seemed to stretch forever, yet he could see it, make out the face in its infinite expanse.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Okay, that’s one big ugly.
Also, I still need to ask Brandon about these spren, which seem to connect the skyeels, the santhidyn, and the chasmfiends. The more I think about it, the more I think they have some kind of anti-gravitational effect; the only problem is that I’m still used to thinking of spren as being drawn to things, not causing things. Are there some spren that do one, some do the other, and some do both? Or are these “anti-grav spren” more closely related to the bonding spren—i.e., do they grant a limited Surgebinding to these creatures? How much intelligence is actually required for a bond like that?
Ars Arcanum
Kaladin finally puts it together and recognizes that Shallan is a Surgebinder. We’re not told exactly what makes it all click for him, but there have been inexplicable phenomena galore. Most recently, she managed to pull him up to the cubby with a strength that simply doesn’t match her size—and then of course there’s the sphere that suddenly went dark. The storm prevents him from arguing with her when she claims she must have dropped it, but apparently he didn’t forget after all.
It must be an odd feeling. He had thought himself alone, and had become accustomed to crediting his Surgebinding for every odd thing that happened, from things unexpectedly sticking together, to not dying when he fell several hundred feet to what should have been his death. In Chapter 72, he even assumed that the giant-Kaladin-Illusion was something he had somehow done. Then Shallan does something he was used to doing: she gained sudden, impossible strength and a sphere went dun… and it sinks in. None of it was his own doing; she survived the fall on her own, and her skill made it possible for him to kill the chasmfiend.
He even confirms her Radiant status with the Stormfather… but in a wrenching counterpoint, just as he learns he wasn’t alone as a Radiant, he also learns that he’s not a Radiant any longer. Not only did Shallan do all that on her own—he will apparently never do anything like it again.
Bitter timing.
Heraldic Symbolism
I’m not quite sure why Vedel and Palah grace this particular chapter… but then, I’m not sure who I think would make any more sense. So Vedel the Healer and Palah the Scholar watch over the exchange of histories and the revelations of pain and heartache. Kaladin and Shallan have to come away from this with a greater understanding of one another, and probably the world at large and their small place in it. (Well, okay, Radiants aren’t exactly a small part of what’s coming, but setting that aspect aside for a moment…) A couple of young people from the backwaters of their respective nations are not normally going to be all that significant on the world stage. Their sorrow, however, is substantial to them personally, and it’s a bit of a stunner to realize that other insignificant people also suffer and mourn. Sometimes a person needs this kind of lesson to realize that he’s just not such a special snowflake after all… and sometimes he needs it to realize that he’s not alone. This situation, I think, may be both—for both of them.
Shipping Wars
And here’s another couple of arrows for the shipping-war ballistas.
With his hands around her waist, hers around him, it was as close as he’d held a woman since Tarah.
I really, really want to know more about Tarah someday. Then, later, there’s this one.
For now, he wanted to think—though he was still glad for her presence. And aware of it in more ways than one, pushed against him and wearing the wet, increasingly tattered dress.
His conversation with the Stormfather, however, drew his attention away from that sort of thought.
My take on this is that, oh surprise, Kaladin is human. He’s physically aware of this sopping-wet woman wearing, as she phrased it earlier, “half a filthy dress”—though it’s probably slightly cleaner by now, her right sleeve and the bottom part of her are making bandages for Kaladin. Anyway, he could hardly be unaware of her, but at this moment, he has something far more problematic on his mind, and his attention is elsewhere.
I do understand the argument, as well as the wish and/or expectation some people have, that this night of shared danger, backstories, and physical proximity could naturally serve as a starting point for mutual romantic interest. I just… don’t think there’s much argument that it does. Certainly they show signs of awareness later—but they also each have other priorities which, IMO, turn this into a passing attraction. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Dalinar’s preparations for the Big Expotition are disrupted by the return of our two wanderers: soggy, dirty, but alive.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She is very much looking forward to her first JordanCon, where she will be one of the Sanderson Track panelists. Y’all should come. It’ll be fun.
The empty sockets thing actually makes sense regardless of how the men died. One only needs to inspect road kill to realize that eyes are the very first things eaten by everything from insects (most notable ants) to larger scavengers.
The flash floods that happen in canyons in the western U.S. sweep up dead trees and debris carrying them all to the same locations (generally a flatter more open location where the water spreads out and settles.
As for Syl potentially being Killed Off for Real, this in one thing I wasn’t worried about, not for any in-story reasons but because it wouldn’t make sense from a story teller’s perspective.
I could easily see that development as a great wham to the audience if it wasn’t the second book. As it currently is, it does great as a much needed slap in the face for Kaladin.
But he was the hero through the entire first book and dominates much of the second. I think killing her off at this point (and possibly him too) would have made too many readers feel like they ‘wasted their time’ on the series.
Doing it now would just mean that readers would have to start all over with some new POV character in what is already a series where each individual book is easily big enough to use as a murder weapon.
Artistically it would be bold, and I’m sure he could do it well. Thinking strategically about his market though, I’m sure Sanderson would think it unwise. It doesn’t matter how emotionally powerful a scene is if you lose all your readers due to frustration.
That being said, having Kaladin progress quicker in the first book then killing Syl there would have made sense, and killing either later on still might..
Regarding the possible anti-grav spren etc: It’s been made fairly clear that the Radiants (or Surgebinders in general) were not something that were intended to exist by the Shards on Roshar. They weren’t designed into the system, they’re more of an accident. Personally, I think it’s likely to be some kind of co-evolution and that if/when we see deep into Roshar’s past and we see the first Surgebinders that there will be distinct differences even at a basic level – eg, the spren are simpler and less distinct and the overall effects are weaker. They’ll be “primitive” and will evolve over time. It might be strange to think of spren as something that can evolve but since they’re sort-of shaped by human emotions and how humans see them then if how humans see them changes then (maybe) they will change, even if only a bit. I would also think that bonding humans would change them. To give a specific example, I suspect the Windrunner spren evolved from windspren. Maybe the Cryptics evolved from creationspren. To use other terminology, I think that the spren bonding with the humans led them to being “uplifted”.
For sprens being alive or dead, it certainly seems less binary than living creatures. More like a real continuum. Even the spren in the “dead” Shardblades aren’t truly dead and it’s possible to revive them. I would say that Syl was “less dead” during these chapters than Pattern was until Shallan revived him at the start of the book. Ie the Stormfather was being over-dramatic (lol) and could have been more helpful if he actually trusted humans…
Regarding the potential Kaladin and Shallan ship: personally, I hope that Brandon is kinda trolling us all with this. Superficially it seems like the standard “template” of romantic relationships forming out of a crisis but it also feels like Brandon is just giving us enough rope to hang ourselves with it too. Well, this is obviously all very subjective though.
An afterimage after a bright light is nothing unusual. It is simply an overstimulation of the light receptors.
The figures passing over the chasm are obviously stormform Parshendi.
I think I’m with Birgit on this one – have we had a proper description of a Stormform Parshendi?
That seems the most likely candidate, although I wouldn’t go as far as saying it was “obvious”. For one thing, I don’t remember a description that involved any glowing, but perhaps this is what happens to a parshendi in a highstorm.
Ah I see Alice already beat me to it – I’m in complete agreement over Kaladin noticing Shallan here is more a testament to him still being human (with the right sexuality to be attracted to a woman), similar to earlier when they were hiding from the chasmfiend in that little hole in the wall. I think there’s more to their attraction than just this (mostly because neither of them healthily addresses it in a way that would get rid of it properly, but we’ll see, distance might help in book 3), but Kaladin noticing Shallan here in a very physical way is just a concession to…well realism like Alice said. Also, it partially shows how well Shallan helped Kaladin get out of his funk, that he even can entertain that kind of thought (although he rejects it because of sadness over Syl, understandably so).
That aside, this is a fun sequence – it captures that feeling of a terrifying storm that the characters can usually avoid because they aren’t forced to ride the storm out in a little cubby. Combine that with some surreal imagery when Kaladin is his lowest magical point of not having any…it’s good stuff.
And for those tired of the chasms, hey they’re over this week, we’re back to the camps and Adolin next week!
@2: None of the magic systems in the Cosmere are “intended” by their parent Shards. It’s like the wobble of a distant star that tells us there’s a planet around it; the Investiture of the planet reacts to and is supplemented by the Investiture of the Shard and that’s how magic systems are born. Surgebinding with the nahel bond (using what I’m calling “noblespren” – honorspren, lawspren, etc.) is of Honor, while artifabrication (using envirospren – flamespren, gravitationspren, windspren, etc.) is of Cultivation. Combining the two gets you fabrials that mimic the Radiant surges, I presume. I don’t know what emotispren (gloryspren, creationspren, etc.) do, as they don’t appear to actually affect anything, and just gravitate towards the relevant emotion. Then there are hatespren, which is all Odium, all the time.
Yay!! Alcatraz reference!! :D
On the empty eye sockets: I don’t think the text is clear on if there were both men and Parshendi with empty eye sockets specifically. It would make sense if only Parshendi had the empty sockets, since Adolin was involved in the fight of course.
@3, 4: The glowing figures are described as “inhuman”, which seems to imply “not humanoid” to me. I would imagine that even stormform Parshendi would look humanoid from a distance in a highstorm…
@6 Landis963: Uh, do you have some supporting quotes/WoB on magic systems not being “intended” by their Shards? Certainly magic systems are shaped by the planet and nature of the Shard involved, but I can’t remember seeing anything to indicate that those are the only factors and Shardholders have zero role in the process. I feel like there must be something in The Hero of Ages that sheds light on it, but my copy is lent out.
Speaking of that, this chapter got me thinking…Surgebinding came about because the spren saw the Honorblades and started copying them. How did Voidbinding (which also involves spren) start? Was it Odium-initiated, rather than spren-initiated? Were there magical objects like the Honorblades that the voidspren could copy? Perhaps the voidspren were actually still copying Honorblades, just with a twist? Or maybe Voidbinding is fundamentally different from Surgebinding even though it looks the same.
And yes. I want to know more about Tarah too. I asked Brandon Sanderson about this in his last Reddit AMA, and he said yes, we’d find out more about her. Of course, that could just mean a passing line or two in the next book…
It has been a while, but I thought I would give my two cents.
Kaladin/Shallan – Yes, there is certainly attraction. But how honorable would it be to for Kaladin to go after Shallan, once Adolin deals with the repercussions of his actions at the end of the book. We might have a situation, were Adolin is out of the picture (exiled, or something similar) and Kaladin has the opportunity, but can’t act on it, because of his honor.
Regarding the creatures in the storm, they sound a lot larger than parshendi-sized. On that note, Brandon read a passage from Stormlight 3 while on tour for Calamity, that you might find interesting. I don’t think Parshendi are going to be a good explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBjTGi92NwU
The reading starts about 27 minutes in.
The Parshendi can glow for two reasons: they wear gems in their beards and it’s in a storm when the gems are freshly charged, and stormform Parshendi can summon lightning.
They might seem unusually large because of shadows. Kaladin doesn’t really see them clearly through the rain in the dark, and seeing them from below is an unusal perspective. He has never seen stormform Parshendi, that could explain why he doesn’t identify them as Parshendi.
Thanks @8 ZenBossanova! That was very intriguing indeed; not terribly spoilery for the current SLA events, but sooo many delicious little tidbits…
I thought the figures he sees were Parshendi changing into Stromform. I thought this was the Highstorm in which most of them change forms.
Does it say that the men had burnt out eyes. I took it to mean that both Humans and Parshendi died; but only some Parshendi had burnt out eyes.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
One thing I wonder about this chapter is what Shallan was thinking when she started telling Kaladin her story. Kaladin isn’t terribly open about his past (he doesn’t like to tell Bridge Four about much of it, for instance), but then he doesn’t really mind explaining why he has such a big beef with Amaram and Sadeas. He keeps his mouth shut mostly to avoid causing problems for himself. So when Shallan is curious and appears ready to believe his story, and he has some trust in her, there isn’t really much keeping him from telling it to her.
Shallan, on the other hand, has generally been very reticent about her past and doesn’t even like to think about it. So what was going through her mind when she said all that to Kaladin? Was she just being impulsive under all the stress? Did she just want to keep talking to distract them and that was the topic at hand? She must have trusted Kaladin to some extent to tell him such alarming things about herself. (Though perhaps she figured that once Kaladin knew she had a Shardblade, there was no point trying to hide the other stuff.) At any rate, I’m curious about what actually made her open up.
Anyways, now I need to talk about shipping. One thing I’ve noticed over the last few chapters is that many commenters seem to see the interactions in the chasms as being primarily about Kaladin’s character arc, and sometimes get a bit bothered when people commandeer them for shipping. It’s interesting to me, because I agree that the main point of the chasm scenes is Kaladin’s character development, and that any romance is tangential. But the large role Kaladin’s development plays here is a actually a key reason why I like Shallan and Kaladin together. I like how the character development and relationship development (whether romantic or not) align, and I feel like we haven’t seen that happen much so far with Adolin and Shallan. There’s certainly potential for their character arcs to align with the progression of their relationship; lots of potential. But as of yet their romance seems (to me) like a subplot that isn’t particularly integrated with the central force of the narrative. There’s nothing wrong with that, but the relationship does lose some of its possible power.
Re: the attraction between Shallan and Kaladin here: I’d agree that so far their interest in each other is a passing attraction, but honestly I appreciate that. I’d want them to have a much stronger basis before having a romantic relationship. Regardless, their time in the chasms would make an interesting start to any sort of relationship.
@2 ChrisRijk: Ha. If Brandon Sanderson is trolling us then I’m falling for it hook, line, and sinker. Oh well. I enjoy getting soundly outwitted by an author every once in a while.
@3 birgit: I think the odd thing wasn’t the afterimage, but how the afterimage looked like a twisted face. It could just be Kaladin’s imagination…but then it could be Brandon Sanderson dropping a magical clue.
As for the figures in the storm: The glowing part could fit with stormform Parshendi, but I’m not convinced that just shadows/rain/weird light could make them appear “enormous”, “inhuman”, “alien and sleek”. Also, the question remains of why the Parshendi would go so far out towards the Alethi warcamps to transform. I don’t know. It’s possible that they’re Parshendi, but I tend to doubt it.
Red spren. This was the last storm before the Weeping. So they were all rushing to change the Parshdi.
There are multiple indications in this chapter that Syl is not dead and that Kaladin’s connection to the Cognitive world of sprens still exists – albeit tenuously. First of all, Kaladin can see Stormfather – something that someone without a connection could not. Moreover, Stormfather continues to refer to Kaladin as ‘son of Tanavast’ and ‘son of Honor’, implying a still existing connection. Finally, he speaks of Syl as ‘broken’ – not dead, despite his claim that Kaladin has ‘killed’ her. In truth, Pattern, had previously told Shallan that spren are immortal forces, but may revert to a non-conscious existence. Syl’s earlier weeping when Kaladin was in mortal danger and bereft of any surgebinding power, indicates that she has not yet lost her consciousness. While there is little evidence of a budding romance in this chapter. There is certainly evidence of a developing deep friendship given their mutual confidences shared with no other outsider. As to the Heraldic icons, the images of healer and scholar are appropriate in that it reflects the enduring aspects of Kaladin and Shallan. Kaladin is both healer and warrior, but only the healer aspect, in the sense of being a comfort to Shallan and encouraging her to divulge a deep secret and guilt feeling, remains in the cubbyhole. Shallan is both scholar and artist/illusionist. Only her intellectual aspect is present there, however.
@12: Why did Shallan open up to Kaladin? My personal guess is he turned out being the first non-threatening individual she has the chance to talk to since forever. She is literally forced to safeguard her secrets from basically anyone she meets as the consequences for actually speaking the truth far surpassed the benefits of relieving herself from the pressure. Once she showed Kaladin her Shardblade and once she revealed her secret ability regarding her outstanding memory, telling him the rest of it simply didn’t bear much further consequences.
For my part, it isn’t about trust or attraction or compatibility, but more about circumstances and the occasions they created.
I’d also argue Shallan opens up to Kaladin for the same reasons Adolin ends up confiding in him: he is basically available to talk to and none truly cares what he may end up thinking of them, hence it facilitates the sharing. As strange as it may sound, Kaladin strikes me as a good listener… somehow, weirdly.
As for the shipping, excluding whatever attraction may or may not be there, I personally would prefer to see the Adolin/Shallan dynamic being further explored than the Kaladin/Shallan one. This is purely a personal preference and here is why:
A large chunk of Adolin’s character development revolved around his inability to develop lasting relationships with his peers. Brandon confirmed recently the fault rested on his shoulders and not on the ladies: he is the one who is unconsciously sabotaging every single one of his opportunities. In other words, each time a girl starts to get too close, he finds new ways to get rid of her. The author said the behavior was tied to a fear of “not being good enough” which makes me wonder if it isn’t tied to a fear of failure. In other words Alethkar perfect boy has never experienced failure which alternatively made him afraid it may actually happen. Something along those lines, I won’t expand further. Anyway, the character has been basically drafted around this particular issue. Therefore, not to see closure on the relationship department, not seeing Adolin finally face whatever issues prevents him from attaching himself to a girl is dissatisfying. Why? Because it is right there in the book and nothing feels more dissatisfying to me than uncompleted characters arcs.
Also, Adolin is a character who has always been at the top of the food chain. He has been born to expect marrying a young woman ranking slightly lower than him. He has grown up being quite secure as to where his place was and how high he stands in society. Now with Shallan being a Radiant (which Brandon confirmed would rank higher than anybody) and with him likely becoming pariah due to murdering Sadeas, going forward within this relationship would force Adolin to acknowledge marrying a woman who ranks higher than him. He may end up being the one who has nothing to bring in to the union… Considering marrying a woman with a higher diploma together with a better income still is an issue for many young men in our world, I thought the parallel was interesting to explore.
Another aspect is the Good Boy/Bad Boy trope wanting the girl to always ending up choosing the Bad Boy as the Good Boy always is either: boring, dumb or plain evil. For once, I’d like to see some variety in this department.
On the other hand, Kaladin is a character which hasn’t been develop over a need to created relationships. He may or may not have a romantic interest, there is little to be gained here for him. He doesn’t need a spouse to find someone he can trust and confide him. As of now, after two books, I do not see it as a requirement for his character development. I am in fact rather indifferent as to whether Kaladin ends up in a romantic ship or not.
Also, there is the fact Kaladin already is at the center of the majority of the story arcs within the Stormlight Archive. He has so many arcs going around him, I feel adding another one tied to romance would be too much. Already, he is the main protagonist, the hero, the savior, the under-dog, the oppressed minority, the most talented and most extraordinary, I’d rather if he did not take over whatever romantic sub plot Brandon is likely to plant in there. This purely is my personal preference, but I tend to dislike when one single character ends up driving everything forward. I believe the story is better if it allows more characters to share the narrative, but YMMV. I have noticed multi POV are running out of fashion which saddens me as I tend to dislike single POV stories.
YMMV, but these are narrative related reasons, non related to who I think would fit better with who and who would be best with who. Baring those aspects, on a purely story telling point of view, I would personally prefer the Shallan/Adolin union to be further explored as my preferences are it would make a better and more interesting story. Kaladin/Shallan would make, still according to my preferences, an uninspired story I have likely read a thousand times, much like the David/Megan ship which I found profoundly boring, but again YMMV.
I might sound like a party pooper to all the Kaladin/Shallan shippers out there, but for me the reason why these two became BFFs after surviving the over 200 ft. fall from the bridge is because of basic instinct, And yes, I mean both the good side and the not so honorable side of basic instinct.
For the good side – it’s called survival of the species. Nothing makes two people closer than surviving a death defying experience. They might not like each other, but that single moment in time make them see each other on a different light. That experience also propelled Kaladin and Shallan to be more open to each other.
The whole chasm experience is not about falling in love in a romantic sense. It is about finding a kindred spirit. Opening up to each other, telling each other their secrets is part of that bonding. It is also part confession, as if they are making peace with themselves just in case they don’t survive.
This epiphany is nowhere near the Judeo-Christian religious teaching. It is basic instinct. Holding on to life, sharing something to be remembered while also accepting that this might be the end of the road for them.
The scene where Kaladin saw Shallan as a woman – yes, that I’d also showing that he is human after all. But it is more than that. He was ready to die. He even expected himself not to survive. But against all odds, he did and Shallan did.
So, we reach that part of the less honorable part of basic instinct, of survival of the species. Other authors would have been more succinct. But, this is Brandon Sanderson writing. So he has to do it his own way. Of course E. L. James would have written it differently. But I guess you already know what I mean.
So, what we have here is a turning point. A shared experience that changed Shallan and Kaladin and their relationship. It is not a romantic moment. It is a survival moment.
@16 sheiglagh: It seems weird to me that you think that would be something to stop shippers, because that’s more than enough (with a continued fascination) to form the start of some kind of relationship. And it’s debatable how…legitimate, for lack of a better word, that it is compared to Adolin and Shallan’s start, which was based on them being physically attracted to one another. Which I’ve seen romantically talked about, but as you pointed out there is that survival aspect of passing on genes, in Adolin and Shallan’s case of finding the appearance that subconsciously you want to pair with your own for children.
@12 sheesania: You know it’s interesting, I’ve seen some people mention it’s a pity we don’t get an Adolin chapter within the chasms sequence, but when I ask myself similar questions to those you raised about what Shallan was thinking, I feel that way about Shallan’s chapters. They’re still good, but we see these heart-to-heart moments from just Kaladin’s perspective and it’s frustrating (in a good way) to have these questions about how Shallan felt about it. All we really get is her one quick thought about Kaladin in Part 5, which she very quickly suppresses.
Sometimes it’s better to not know/see a character during a moment, because that lack of information introduces speculation and worry that are much more interesting than what *could* be relatively mundane development.
I ship Kaladin/Shallan. So far I think we have seen interest from Kaladin, not as much (or any) interest from Shallan. I think Kaladin and Shallan could have a more balanced relationship than Shallan/Adolin. Adolin has been honest with Shallan, but Shallan has been lying to Adolin. Adolin does not know much about Shallan. As far as Shallan’s curiosity and creativity is concerned Shallan is honest, but everything else about her interactions with Adolin have seemed a bit fake/forced to me. I think Shallan is superficial around Adolin and that bothers me.
FenrirMoridin @@@@@ 17 – Many pinpoint the chasm “novella” as a romantic moment for Kaladin and Shallan. I don’t see it as a romantic moment. That is what my post is all about. That they became more aware of each other after that, yes. But, their moment at the chasm is not romantic.
Have you ever been in a true life and death situation wherein you know that you can die. That the person beside you can die. That both of you can die with bullets flying? The last thing you think about is romance or if that person can be your soulmate. The only thing you want is to survive and make sure that you survive.
That is the situation that Kaladin and Shallan were in. And believe me when I say that romance is the last thing on their mind at that moment if they are real people. Short of sounding brass or uncouth, but what they felt at the end, when Kaladin was holding Shallan in his arms is as you put it, just to pass along the genes, nothing more. It is not romantic. It is not even lust. It just survival.
@15 Gepeto: Ah, I was hoping you’d show up and give a good explanation of how an Adolin/Shallan relationship could work alongside character development nicely! I agree with what you say about the potential there. On Kaladin’s part, I don’t see a specifically romantic relationship as being particularly necessary for his character development. I think some sort of close relationship with somebody would be important, however, and I see evidence here that Shallan in particular might spur character development nicely. But honestly, by that reasoning, a narratively interesting relationship with Shallan could be romantic or non-romantic. I just happen to prefer it to be romantic.
Also, I think I get some of your annoyance with Kaladin being the focus of everything. Probably the one thing that bugs me most about Sanderson’s writing is his tendency to focus on quite powerful, significant characters who only get more powerful and significant. He doesn’t leave much room for the mundane guys, or even the guys who only have a second-tier level of power. Don’t get me wrong, I think he does write those powerful characters well and gives them plenty of genuine problems and obstacles – but it just bugs me on a personal, subjective level. So that’s one front where I tend to prefer Shallan/Adolin. On the other hand, though, I’m a bit nervous that if he went the Shallan/Adolin route, it wouldn’t be developed/used to drive the story as much as it might be if Shallan was involved with a more central character. But then he might want Shallan’s love life to remain on the side and not complicate/lengthen the main story. At any rate, regardless of whatever pairing he may choose, he could have it be a central part of the story (or not) if he wants to. I just think it’s slightly less likely to have a central role if Shallan winds up with Adolin.
About Shallan opening up to Kaladin: The thing about your explanation is that I don’t see Shallan dying to tell somebody about her experiences. One could argue that she would be purely from human psychology, but I can’t remember seeing any indications in the books that she was desperate to open up to somebody and yet wasn’t getting the chance. (Kaladin, on the other hand, often stews over his experiences.) I also think she must have trusted him to some extent (not necessarily that much) to tell him she’d been willing to kill somebody, trick and steal from Jasnah, &c when a few hours ago he openly suspected her of wanting to assassinate Adolin or Dalinar! But regardless, I agree that at least a good part of why they shared their stories is just the circumstances.
@16, 19 sheiglagh: I’m a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and similar to what FenrirMoridin says, I’d pretty much agree with you. I don’t see the chasms scenes as romantic moments per se. They show the development of a relationship (perhaps just from basic instinct) that could turn into a romance. Indeed, the way Brandon Sanderson writes these scenes, and the attraction to each other that Kaladin and Shallan show afterwards, implies that he wants us to consider romance as a possibility even if it’s not happening yet. I don’t think I’m reading stuff into the text if I think romance between them is possible by the end of WoR, because Sanderson’s been telegraphing it.
By the way, I like your description of their sharing their stories as confession, making peace with themselves. It’s a new way to consider the scene that hadn’t occurred to me before.
@20: In my previous post, I try to have a purely narrative stand-point and why I found the Adolin/Shallan ship more interesting to read. I thus excluded from it whatever may have transpired or not in between Kaladin and Shallan to focus on the narrative.This being said I tend to agree with sheiglag on the idea the chasm scene were more about survival than romance, but I also agree there must have been some level of trust installed at this point in time. You ask why would Shallan be needing someone to talk to when it is mostly Kaladin we see rumbling about his issues, I’d say the need to open-up is not always obvious to the person who needs it. In other words, simply because Shallan is not seen rummaging on her personal issues overly does not mean she doesn’t need someone to talk to. She is, essentially, not an introspective individual, she tends to avoid thinking about her difficult past which is the exact opposite of Kaladin who spends his every waking hours thinking about it. I am thus not surprised she never had the thought before, but I am also not surprised she jumped on the occasion to share once one passes in front of her.
As I said, I tend to prefer when a story is driven by more than one element. It is a personal preference, others may have different preferences and based on my musings elsewhere, I’d say most people would disagree with me. This being said, I personally find stories who rely too strongly on one character to move forward have the tendency to grow implausible and unsatisfying, to me as a reader, but YMMV. I don’t buy the premise of one character will save them all, one character will single-handily settle the faith of the world. It is what I appreciated of WoT: Jordan made it be more than just Rand’s journey. In the end, yes he does defeat the Dark One, but he wouldn’t have made it if not for his friends, armies and allies. It wasn’t just a one man’s show, it was the story of many elements coming to terms with wordily events, each facing their own hardships until they formed a cohesive unit. So far, SA has been mostly Kaladin’s story and I fear the remaining of the first arc will remain, mostly, Kaladin’s story. Brandon, as an author, has the tendency to focus on one over-powered character he keeps on pushing forward, even in his multi-POV stories. He does write great characters, but this habit may end up tempering my enjoyment of SA. Already, we do know the only characters who are bound to be fully developed in this first arc are Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, to a lesser extend Szeth and Eshonai. Everyone else will only be page fillers… and I know I will never make peace with this. I am used to epic fantasy to scatter around, to break around the first main protagonist we meet in order to explore other characters, I am used to see previously minor characters grow into main protagonists, so to think it won’t happen in SA is distressing. To know the story is so strongly structured in such an inflexible way is not positive, for me as a reader, but most would disagree. It is one of my main criticism of the Codex Alera (half the interesting characters end up being nothing more than insignificant lackeys) and, in the end, I fear SA will lose several notches in my personal ranting because of it.
This being said, considering the fact Kaladin is central to basically every single plot arcs (well not all of them, but the majority of them), adding up the romance sub-plot would essentially make it even more Kaladin’s story then it already is. On the reverse, I do agree with you over the fact pushing forward the Shallan/Adolin romance would turn it into a sub-plot as opposed to a more central one. We do know anything related to Adolin will never drive the main narrative and will always be part of a side story, so whatever ails him in terms of issues with respect to relationship is unlikely to be broached in a satisfying way, character development related. In this optic, anyone who wishes for the romance to take a more central seat and anyone who wishes to see deep character development with respect to this arc should wish for Kaladin/Shallan as Adolin/Shallan is unlikely to provide it.
For my part, non-withstanding the fact I do prefer the Adolin/Shallan dynamic and the issues they would need to overcome are more interesting to me on a character point of view, I also see the Adolin/Shallan romance as basically the only way I will keep on reading about Adolin, even if through a mere side story he won’t be the hero of, so it does influence part of my thinking. If he doesn’t have the romance arc, then he has nothing.
All this being said, I do agree Brandon can push either story is a plausible way. Killing off the Adolin/Shallan infatuation is extremely easy especially considering Adolin’s track record. He doesn’t even need to go into the details, he has no need to further develop Adolin as a character. He is not required for the main narrative to follow its intended course. Having Adolin confront why he can’t develop lasting relationships is important for his character development, but his character development is not important to the story, so it doesn’t have to happen. Therefore, this ship is very easy to just push to the side in a plausible way: Adolin is a side character, Kaladin is a main character, end of story. Brandon wouldn’t be the first nor the last author to start developing a character only to drop him on the side and let him fade to insignificance. Pushing forward the Kaladin/Shallan ship also is extremely easy: he only has to keep on building on what he has already written. It fits nicely within the main narrative. Kaladin learns to fight his prejudice by actually falling in love with a lighteye while Shallan makes a choice for herself, instead of marrying who she was told to marry, she chooses her future husband. While it isn’t my preferred story arc, I can see the author wanting to steer the story this way. It would keep the focus more tightly on Kaladin/Shallan which I prefer if he didn’t, but it may have been his intentions all along.
I do agree he certainly expected us to think the chasm scene may have started something, either we are right or wrong about it, the fact remains we can be reasonably sure it was the author’s intend for us to talk about it.
@@@@@21. Gepeto – I agree a lot with what you said about appreciating multiple characters being developed in an epic fantasy and not focusing too much on one character. I just don’t understand how any of your criticisms apply to SA or your twisted logic that the story is too much about Kaladin. Dalinar did not meet Kaladin until the end of WoK. Shallan did not meet Kaladin until half way through WoR. Shallan’s and Kaladin’s interactions have been a small side story to the main narrative and each of their character development. All five of your list of “main characters” have developed without a large amount of contact between any of them, even Dalinar and Kaladin are not together that often.
As far as not developing “side characters” enough: Are you kidding me? How many would be enough for you? Five main characters are not enough? Twenty or so view point characters are not enough? A hundred or more side characters are not enough? Are we even reading the same books?
@22: The story of both WoK and WoR strongly revolve around Kaladin. Every single climax moment is a Kaladin moment where he ends up saving the hand. Every single one. Even though we are in Shallan’s book, the end scene was a defining Kaladin moment more than a Shallan defining moment: more emphasis was put on Kaladin back to back saving Elhokar and fighting Szeth than any other character. Ask any reader, it is undeniable he was the star of the ending sequence. YMMV, but this is how I read it. We have spend more time with him than with any other character including Shallan and Dalinar.
This isn’t a complain, simply an observation and it isn’t twisted logic either. Many readers have observed the same thing. Believe or not but there are readers (who are not myself) who wish for Kaladin to take a more laid back role in the next book as they too feel the story revolves too much around him and it deprives other characters from the possibility to grow (each of those readers have their favorite they root for and no it isn’t always the same character).
I also didn’t say all the story arcs revolved around Kaladin, but the major ones do and, more importantly, the most action oriented ones as well as all the climaxes revolve around him. We spend more time inside Kaladin’s head than any other characters and issues he goes through are explored in the tiniest detail. Practically each time he walks in a scene, he is the POV we follow: we only have a handful of third person’s perspective on Kaladin. Other characters do not have this luxury, even major ones such as Dalinar (which may change in book 3, I cannot say).
In the optic of the discussion at hand, playing Kaladin into the romance arc is quasi near guaranty this arc will be a major one while playing Adolin would make it a more minor one. If a reader prefers to have this arc take a more central role, then it makes more sense to root for Kaladin than Adolin as one is a major character and the other isn’t.
I also didn’t mean to say no other characters but Kaladin have develop as this is untrue. Many have developed but they all suffer from the comparison. In other words, because Kaladin is so developed as a character, every one else feels under-developed. Also because we spend a lot of times on any issues, no matter how small, revolving around Kaladin, it is harder to accept when other characters don’t get the same luxury.
How many character is enough? There is no right answer to this question. There is no right number either. It isn’t so much as the number of POV, the number of significant POV. Most of SA POV are extremely minor ones who won’t evolve much pass the occasional glimpses: their purpose being world-building as opposed to character building or to get a third person’s perspective on certain events outside the main characters. Important action driving POV can be resume to those five major ones and even then, two hardly have played a role so far.
This being said, what is sad though is when the author chose to give glimpses of the side characters which are interesting to the readers (often more interesting than the main protagonists), but later chose not to capitalize on them. For instance, in Codex Alera, I thought the brother to brother relationship between Crassus and Maximus together with their estranged mother showed great promises, but it didn’t deliver. In the end, both characters turned out being nothing more than disappointing lackeys serving little purpose to the story. I was disappointed by this turn of events I wanted more from those characters and I found those few glimpses more interesting than main character Tavi. Of course, YMMV, but in the case of SA, we already know more or less what to expect in this regard.
@@@@@23. Gepeto – “Every single climax moment is a Kaladin moment.” Ok, maybe your logic isn’t twisted, but just blinded and wrong?
In WoK:
Shallan had her own climax moments totally separate from Kaladin: Watching Jasnah kill the 3 robbers and stealing her Soulcaster. Entering Shadesmar for the first time and cutting herself. Being poisoned and healed. Figuring it all out and confronting Jasnah. We also see into Shallan’s mind and struggles in detail.
Dalinar gets his climax moments: Killing the chasmfiend. Deciding to step down as High Prince and then changing his mind. Fighting to save his men and fighting Eshonai. He gets the ultimate climax scene when he trades his Shardblade for the bridgemen. We also see into his mind in painful and excruciating detail as he struggles with the visions and if he is going insane. (I would have preferred less of this!)
Yes, Kaladin had more chapters than the others and it was “his book”, but he ended up not have the final climax scenes, those were Dalinar and Shallan.
In WoR:
We start with Shallan and she has more chapters dedicated to her. It is “her book”. She has more climax scenes: saving the ship, saving the caravan, killing Tyn, breaking into Amaram’s study and outwitting ghost bloods, breaking in to see Talenel, saving Kaladin in chasms, saving entire army by figuring out how to open Oathgate, plus all the flashback scenes. The first two meetings between Shallan and Kaladin are from her point of view. We see into Shallan’s mind in as much detail as Kaladin’s, but guess what, there are more secrets.
Dalinar is not featured as much in this book as a lot of his problems are about politics and leadership. He does fight Szeth twice and does the Last Clap. He bonds the StormFather and re-founds the Radiants.
I have no trouble with people wanting to see less of Kaladin in the next book, or not wanting to experience his every thought while going through depression. (Yes, I would have liked a little less of that) Yes, Kaladin’s climax scenes are more personal one on one combat than others. But it is just blind to say that Shallan and Dalinar don’t have their own separate climax scenes that are just as powerful, or to say we do not see into their thoughts and minds as detailed as Kaladin.
There is a feeling we have learned ALL of Kaladin’s secrets and pain, and that he has overcome many of his issues, so his character feels more complete. There is more to learn about Shallan (even though we had her flashbacks), Dalinar, and all the other characters, so I understand wanting to see more of them.
Edited and added another thought: As far as dominating scenes, it seems to me that whenever Shallan and Kaladin are together it is actually Shallan that dominates the scenes. She wins the verbal battles. She exposes him as immature and spiteful. She dominates Kaladin’s thoughts. She shows more strength of character and intelligence.
@24: Then perhaps your definition of climaxes and mine differ. For my part, I demand more intensity than Shallan simply confronting Jasnah over killing the thugs to call it a climax. I don’t consider most of your examples to be climaxes, but character arcs which I never claimed never existed. I simply stated the arcs revolving around Kaladin took more place and appeared more important to the overall story than those revolving around Dalinar and Shallan. We spend four chapters with Kaladin being locked in prison in order to explore his inner torment: no other character gets to be detailed as deeply. I even made the argumentation we didn’t need as many, but others disagree, so YMMV.
I personally do not find any of the scenes revolving around Shallan and Dalinar to be equally powerful as those revolving around Kaladin. Yes they have their own arcs, yes they have their own moments, but to me they just aren’t equivalent to those Kaladin have. Kaladin is just a notch above everyone else. I also disagree about Kaladin not owning the climax at the end of WoK: he did. He rescued the army in a badass moment where he said an oath and stormlight poured out of him: no other character has said oaths in the same powerful way. I have read people argue Shallan saying her last oath was anti-climatic. I am not saying I partake the opinion, simply others do think it.
This being said what a given reader feels is a powerful scene or not perhaps is entirely personal. For my part, most of the moments where I couldn’t put the book down involved climaxes revolving around Kaladin, sometimes others, but the OMG moments have been reserved for him. My reasons for wanting a difference kind of arc for him are not tied to my appreciation of those moments, though there are some I enjoyed less than others, but because I feel the story would become too predictable is Kaladin flies into the air to the rescue each time their is a decisive battle. Decisive moments can’t be in the hand on one sole character and I currently have the feeling Kaladin is taking too much place when compared to others, hence my personal desire to steer him away from the plots involving other characters. Each time he is in a plot, he takes up all the place and others need place as well to grow.
I also am not a huge fan of the depression arc.. so less of that is better for me, but I try not to complain about it because so many readers love it.
25. Gepeto: “I simply stated the arcs revolving around Kaladin took more place and appeared more important to the overall story than those revolving around Dalinar and Shallan.” I understand personal preferences about how powerful a certain scene was and that you thought Kaladin’s were a lot more powerful. However, if we are talking about overall story, then Kaladin’s arc is the least important of our big three. His arc is all about personal loss and personal power. His suffering keeps him from even seeing the big picture. Even at the end of WoR his only thought is to save his family. Who cares about all the other people, right?
It is from Dalinar’s and Shallan’s story arcs that we see the wider battle to save countries and even the whole world. If you think SA is all about Kaladin and his personal power, then of course you are going to find his story more important. If you think it is a story about saving a whole world, then you will find the other story arcs, and the mysteries revealed and solved to be more engaging. I personal found Kaladin’s story arc to be the least engaging in WoR. Pretty much all he did was be angry and depressed, learn how to use some of his powers, and fight some personal one-on-one conflicts. From Dalinar and Shallan, we get mysteries to solve, battles to be won, a world to be saved.
On re-reading WoR, I actually skipped the Kaladin depression chapter’s and the fight with Szeth at the end. Not much of a climax when it is not even good enough to re-read. Sort of like action movies when the action scenes just get too long — they just get boring.
@26: I don’t disagree with you here. Other arcs are important, this is true, but the way they are being told, they feel lesser. Perhaps it simply is a narrative choice which makes me feel this way, perhaps I am also looking at it with the wrong googles. I have changed googles so many times to look at SA, I hardly know which way is right anymore.
I personally do not want SA to be reduced to being merely Kaladin’s struggle to gain power for himself and to leave his mark onto the world. This isn’t what I wish to read, ultimately, which is why I have been quite annoying in my desire to have other characters take more place and him take less. It isn’t I find the other arcs not engaging, my favorite overall arc in WoR isn’t Kaladin (it was a slow move as I started up rooting for Kaladin, but chapter 28 changed everything slowly, perniciously), it is I find his arcs take up so much place and are so action oriented you end up seeing not much else than him. Also, since he is at the heart of every single action scene, the second the book gets overly exciting, you are reading about Kaladin…
It is why I am not keen on seeing him add the “romance arc” to his already numerous arcs. I do not feel this is something the character needs to deal with on top of everything else he has to deal with. I’d rather other characters take up this role or if Kaladin is to develop a romantic interest, I would prefer if it were a minor lesser character than Shallan. Pairing the main male and the main female character together seems like a good plan to focus the story solely on these two and having everyone else fall into the background. It may not happen this way, but I fear it will.
I have personally dislike Part 4 and I will admit I skip it on the first read to move onto Part 5 as Kaladin wasn’t the character I wanted to read about once I got there. I also am not a huge fan of his fight with Szeth because there was no emotions in there, no end game, just a power show-off I knew Kaladin would win. I much preferred Adolin’s fighting bout because the stakes were high, he was giving in all he’s got and many emotions passed through those. This being said, whenever you ask readers for their favorite scenes, Kaladin fighting Szeth usually is up there. For my part, my favorite Kaladin scenes were the ending of WoK and the 4 on 1 duel, but after that, my interest moved to another character. Unfortunately, this is an arc I am unlikely to read in future books.
@@@@@27. Gepeto – I think you are jumping to conclusions about Adolin and other characters not having story arcs that will be developed much further. I fully expect Adolin’s story arc to continue and in at least the detail we have seen so far. In WoR, it felt to me as if Adolin developed nearly as much as Dalinar. Yes, we can expect Dalinar to get even more details, but I don’t think Adolin will be left blowing in the wind. It was probably a mistake for Sanderson to share so much of his plans about future books and who would be highlighted, but plans do change. I think he originally had Jasnah as one of the first five flashbacks. Who knows, perhaps he will break the pattern and have two flashback sequences in a future book. He also changes from Szeth to Dalinar for the third book.
I feel he does a great job of creating in-depth character in his “side characters” in just a chapter or two. I don’t need the same level of development for all characters.
I think it is important for Sanderson to keep to a pretty strict structure for this behemoth or he could quickly be lost in too many side characters. There is a limit to how many story lines people can process. It also appears he is writing number 3 a bit slower than the first two and I would like to see him finish in a reasonable amount of time.
@28: Bah am I jumping to hasty conclusions? Brandon has been very explicit as to what his plans were: three main characters per book and none of those will ever be Adolin. Period. Whatever development he has will have to fit within one of the tertiary POV character and some of these have very limited POV. I’ve seen the little chart. Do I expect the author to change his mind? On certain things, such as who’s book is coming next, yes, but on who is a main character and who isn’t, no I don’t expect him to change his mind. He already knows the story he wishes to tell and he knows who plays a decisive role in it. Anyone else is a page filler or a foil and what readers may or may not wish only matters to a certain extend. In other words, the author won’t change his story outlay because one minor character got more popular than his role dictated. At best, he’ll give him a decent sub plot which will still feel unsatisfying to some fans because it just will be… a sub plot and it will likely miss the depth of Kaladin’s arcs, at worst, he’ll just ignore him and tell his story no matter what. The truth is Adolin is a foil, a character who’s purpose is to launch conflict into other characters, but what happens to him hardly is relevant. Can it change? Maybe, nothing is ever impossible, but I don’t hope for much here.
What it is mistake to share? The question should more be, am I happy to know or not? Well I am currently unhappy to know about it, but then again it allows me the time to brace myself against it. Is it better or worst? I can’t tell just now. Ask me again after I read book 3.
He does a great job with his side characters and it is because he did such a good job I got attached to one. Has he done a bad job, I wouldn’t even be here. Hence my dilemma, but enough of that. I get on everyone nerves as soon as I tackle this subject. I only meant to say Kaladin was a strong focus and I used it in order to talk shipping. I had not mean to enter into this discussion again. I can’t go on discussing book structure, everyone hates me when I do. Whether I end up liking book 3 or not is irrelevant, it is irrelevant to the author and to the fandom, I am just one person: the fandom certainly does not need me, the author does not need me, he has millions of other readers. I have had a hard time finding books I did like recently, so the problem is me. Just me. I want something which do not exist.
I don’t think Brandon is writing book 3 at a slower pace: he seems very busy with his other activities, hence the slower pace, but I am unsure it is linked to book 3 by itself. I could be wrong about it though.
@@@@@ Gepeto
I understand your sentiment. And I highly doubt anyone here hates you. It takes a lot of effort and emotional energy to hate someone. For me, at least, it’s almost never worth it. I do love to debate with you, but that’s because I enjoy debating things I like with other fans.
We certainly can get tired of negativity or anyone beating a dead horse about any subject, but one thing I love about this subset of the fandom and the vast majority (though sadly not totality) of Tor.com in general is just how civil and even friendly it often is.
If it makes you feel any better, Adolin remaining a driving force side character may ultimately make him more enjoyable to you than if he were to become a major character. I know that seems like an impossible contradiction, but it remains a documented fact that side characters are often more interesting in stories precisely because they are side characters.
Here are a few examples (though far, far less than an exhaustive list) of fan favorite side characters who lost their draw or even outright bombed when the creator’s tried to cash in on the popularity with stories that focused on them:
Hannibal Lector–Hannibal Rising
Captain Jack Sparrow–Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides
The Minions–Minions
In fact, I can’t think of more than two or three spin offs in any media format (books, radio, tv, whatever) that didn’t fail.
So while I very much enjoy Adolin’s P.O.V.’s and want to see more of him, I don’t actually want to see too much of him or any of my other favorites. The more the author fills in the less space I have to color in how I want in my own head canon.
You yourself have put in some extensive in how you see Adolin as a character based on your own conjecture. You seem to enjoy it, and it makes him feel more alive to you. But imagine if Brandon drew the lines in his coloring book differently than how you thought. Maybe you wouldn’t like that picture as much, maybe you would find it more restrictive.
Maybe not…but sometimes less is more and ambiguity is a blessing in disguise. In any case I hope you stick with the series and find enough to enjoy in it regardless.
@@@@@29. Gepeto – Yes, Sanderson has shared how he plans the structure of each book of SA, but where has he listed all the main characters? I have seen places where he tentatively shared the first five flashbacks, but has he made a list of all main characters and all ten flashbacks? I would love to see it.
As for book 3 being at a slower pace, I am only going on what he has shared in previous updates on his site. Last one I saw with some details for finishing book 3 was finishing the first draft by April. Don’t think that will happen, unless he hasn’t updated the percentage complete in a LONG time … it currently sits at 44%. He has also shared that the editors want a longer time to review and correct his drafts. His very original goal for finishing the books was one every 18 months, then that moved to one every two years, now it appears to be one every three years or longer. WoR released 03/2014, I think we will be lucky if book 3 is released by 03/2017.
@31: He did. The main characters and the flashback ones are the same. For the first arc they are: Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Eshonai and Szeth. For the second arc they are: Jasnah, Taln Shalash, Lift and Renarin. However he did say the second arc wasn’t completely fixed, so changes there are not impossible, but the first arc is pretty fixed. I’d be seriously surprise to see him make major changes to it, but again nothing is ever impossible, just highly unlikely.
As for book 3 progress bar, it hasn’t moved recently because Brandon has been busy touring for the release of Calamity. His goals were quite unrealistic considering how much time he had planned to spend on “other things” but writing. I personally now take it Brandon is overly optimist when it comes to his schedule as he keeps on changing it. Book 3 won’t be released before fall 2017 if we are luckily, early 2018 doesn’t seem improbable, but probably not later than that. The 2 years delay was completely out of the blue: he needs 3 years to write on of these books plus he works on several parallel series at the same time. 4-5 years is more likely to be the release pace of SA. I had wish for a shorter delay, but I have got to live with what it is.
@@@@@32. Gepeto – Interesting list. I kind of wish we didn’t have this list or the strict structure of the books. Now the only thing to figure out is which of the 3 main characters die to make way for other new characters since there are only 3 main characters per book. My guesses are Kaladin in Book 3, Szeth in Book 4, Dalinar and Eshonai in Book 5.
Re: Gepeto & Ajbaker
Do keep in mind that the list and order of main characters for the books, has changed more than once, especially for the second 5 books.
All we know is his plans at some point. They are not soulcast into stone.
Fantasy readers expect climaxes to be battles, that is why Kaladin’s climaxes seem more important to some. Shallan just isn’t a warrior, it makes no sense to expect her climaxes to be battles. Dalinar was a warrior when he was young, but is now moving on to politics. It is more interesting to have different characters doing different kinds of things instead of only having boring action movie heroes.
You’re welcome. As for book structure, Brandon explained how he works with 3 main characters at a time. The main characters are those having the most POV, being recurent in nearly all parts. For instance, main character 1 in book 3 (probably Dalinar) has POV in all parts. Main character 2 has POV in all part, but only one chapter in Part 2. Main character 3 has POV in all parts but for Part 4.
It has been confirmed the main characters for book 3 were Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan. While Dalinar is quite likely the number 1, which one are Kaladin and Shallan has not been confirmed. My personal guess: Shallan is number 2 and Kaladin is number 3.
After that, you shrink down to the tertiary characters for which the number POV diminishes greatly. Tertiary character 1 has POV in Part 2, Part 4 and one chapter in Part 5. All other tertiary characters have POV in only one part + one chapter in Part 5 with the exception of tertiary character 4 who has no chapter in Part 5.
Adolin has been confirmed one of the tertiary characters, though I do not know which one. Considering the fact he was tertiary character 1 both in book 1 and 2 together with Brandon stating he has roughly the same page time, he’s probably still tertiary character 1, but this has yet to be confirmed. It wouldn’t surprise me if he were shrink down to tertiary character 2 or 3 in order to make more room for one of the “main character”. If this is the case, than Adolin has about 5 or 6 POV chapters: not enough to call it satisfying character development.
Other tertiary characters are Szeth, Eshonai, Jasnah or Navani. There is one too many character which means someone in there is either in the interlude or doesn’t have more than an occasional POV.
There is also a new POV character into a novelette located in Part 2. And the interlude novelette which previously was Szeth then Eshonai is also featuring someone new. I thought it perhaps was Lift, but since she is getting her own book, it probably isn’t the case.
Anyone else I have not mentioned aren’t allowed more than one or two POV chapters, as Brandon himself explained, and this includes Renarin. Brandon more or less stated not to expect POV from him until the second arc, but this is up to personal interpretation. He specifically mentioned Renarin.
My main point of contention is there is a sharp decrease in terms of page time when you move from main character to tertiary character which makes me fear anyone force to evolve as a second tier character won’t get satisfying character development.
Brandon has made it clear the only characters who are allowed to be one of the 3 main characters are the flashback ones. This being said, nobody has to die to make room for nobody. Once Eshonai moves up for book 4, someone moves down, but it doesn’t mean this character will die, he will just become a tertiary character, probably the number 1 (which means Adolin will lose practically all of his POV starting in book 4).
Brandon has confirmed some characters would have arcs on-going across both arcs of the series, but he, of course, will not say which ones nor do we expect him to. Therefore, not everyone is dying. Your guess is as good as mine.
He did say though at least one of the main characters for the second half would be dead by the time his flashback book arive. He specifically said Renarin did not have plot immunity… and even if dead, he would still play a role into the main narrative. Many took it as a sign he was the one to bite the dust.
@33: While the order of presentation has changed, the names of the featured characters hasn’t. Since Brandon also stated he wished to alternate in between male/female character for the flashbacks, the probability of the next book not being Eshonai is rather slim, but not improbable.
This being said, at this point in time, I would be very surprised to see him make major changes into his outlay for the first arc.
We are getting a book heavily featuring Eshonai and we are getting a book heavily featuring Szeth both in the flashbacks and in the main narrative. Considering the fact one hasn’t stirred much passion so far and the other is highly controversial, I have no idea how this will play out in the end.
The second half is more open, per Brandon’s words. He may make changes there, he said as much. I don’t expect him to make drastic ones, but as you say, it isn’t soulcasted in stone. The first arc though quite probably is soulcasted in stone unless he realizes, as he writes book 4, his plan totally doesn’t work at all and he needs to change everything, but it seems unlikely to happen. I’d say to people not to expect changes there.
@35: I wouldn’t want Shallan to turn into a warrior just to give her climaxes moments. I simply wish for the “battle climaxes” not to all revolve around Kaladin mostly because, after two books, it is getting repetitive.
Actually, Gepeto, that was exactly what I was saying – the people picked for the second 5 books has changed.
Re: Kaladin’s endings: I have a theory about Brandon Sanderson’s climaxes that may be relevant here. My theory proposes that his books usually have three types of arcs: character arcs, magic arcs (generally involving trying to figure out something about the magic), and what I lamely call plot arcs (usually a straightforward political or interpersonal conflict). In Kaladin’s bits of TWoK, for instance, we have his own development (character arc), the questions about his powers (magic arc), and the problem of how he is going to keep Bridge 4 alive (“plot” arc). The theory goes on to say that the more sorts of arcs manage to resolve in a single, unified climax, the more powerful and exciting that climax is. The different elements complement and feed off of each other. A plot arc resolving by itself might be little more than a fight or a clever social maneuver; a magic arc resolving by itself is just “oh hey, we figured out the puzzle”; and a character arc resolving by itself may tend to make the reader wonder why we’re spending so much time on personal problems when the world is at stake. When they’re combined, however, and all these different elements align, the resulting ending has a greater chance of being exciting and intellectually stimulating and emotionally impactful. Or in other words, good, and thus memorable. So, huge YMMV, but it’s been my consistent experience across all types of fiction (not just Sanderson!) that endings where different types of arcs align are more powerful than segmented, spread-out endings.
Applying this to SA, I see that Kaladin regularly gets the most unified climaxes. In TWoK, for instance, his character, magic and plot arcs all climax in the one scene where he decides to go back and save Dalinar. Character: he commits himself to selflessly protecting others. Magic: he speaks the Ideal, comes into his powers, and finds out that Syl is an honorspren. Plot: he makes a decision that protecting Dalinar and co is more important than just staying alive. (You could debate about this one, since the plot arc is by no means resolved at this point, but since it is the last significant decision Kaladin makes about it I’d argue that it’s the climax.) Also note that all three climaxes are contained in just one distinct decision. Shallan’s climax moments in TWoK, on the other hand, are split up. Her character arc comes to its height when she decides to steal the Soulcaster after seeing Jasnah kill the thieves. Then the magic arc probably reaches its climax when she enters Shadesmar. And the plot question of what is going to happen between her and Jasnah finally gets addressed when she confronts Jasnah. All these moments happen separately, with large spaces between them. They don’t get tightly compressed into one intense scene of awesomeness like Kaladin has. Neither do they have the same unity of action, even if they influence each other.
You can also look at other Sanderson novels for examples. The Well of Ascension, for instance, very neatly splits up its central character, plot, and magic arcs into three separate endings with fairly large, calm gaps between them. (Character: Vin’s fight with Zane and marriage. Plot: the defeat of Straff and the koloss army. Magic: the discovery of the Well of Ascension and associated disasters.) The result for me was that the ending was quite a bit less powerful than, say, the ending of TFE, which was much more compressed.
So looking at it this way, even though other characters like Shallan and Dalinar get climax moments, Kaladin’s remain the best because they integrate all different aspects of his story into one short, intense, satisfying space. I really enjoy Kaladin’s endings, but I do wish others characters I love (Shallan in particular) would get these sorts of awesome unified resolutions. Maybe they can sometimes come off as contrived, but they’re just so much fun.
And Gepeto: Seconding wcarter. I certainly don’t hate you when you discuss book structure or Adolin’s place or anything else. Indeed, I enjoy seeing how passionately you get into SA because I feel the same way, just about different elements.
@33 adjbaker: I doubt it would be necessary for a main character to die in order to make room for a new main character. As Gepeto said, they could just become a secondary/tertiary character. Finish up their plots one book, then they can take a more side role in the next book. You see this happening in the original Mistborn trilogy: Vin and Elend finish most of their character development by the end of TWoA, and then there’s more room in THoA for Sazed, Spook, Marsh, &c to play important roles. (Though Marsh never did get enough page time IMHO.)
@36: Your Stormlight Archive has main characters and then tertiary characters. No secondary or supporting characters. I’m not sure whether you misunderstand the word tertiary or whether you are deliberately using that mis-classification to make a point about what you consider a vast gulf in character development. I don’t think you mean the latter. I suggest that Adolin, Renarin, Jasnah, Elhokar, Sadeus, Hoid, etc., would normally be considered secondary or supporting characters because they are important movers of the story though not the main ones. I also suggest that tSA has a fully developed cast of hundreds of characters with what may be considered primary (main), secondary (supporting), tertiary, quartenary, quinary, and maybe even senary roles.
Oh, and Brandon Sanderson’s diagram of his current plans for SA 3 may be helpful:
(This also answers one of your questions, Alisonwonderland – in the diagram you can see that Sanderson jumps right from “secondary main character” to “tertiary character”.)
@38 sheesania, I agree with your assessment that a dramatic and satisfying climax in a book occurs when all the major themes of the book come together in dramatic fashion. As you pointed out, Kaladin – the main character in WOK, has his character, power, and story arcs come together in a dramatic moment when he decides to save a trapped army despite it’s apparent futility and the seemingly inevitable endangerment of the lives of men that he had striven so hard to protect. That noble act sets the stage for a reversal of fortune for him and his men when Dalinar responds in similar noble fashion. WOW doesn’t have the same tight climax. It is more prolonged and much more complicated. First, Kaladin decides to save the king from the anticipated assassination by Shardbearers despite the loss of his power. Then there is the battle between Dalinar’s forces and the Stormform Parshendi (Listeners), and Shallan’s finding of the entrance to the ancient refuge city of Urithiru. Then Szeth arrives and starts defeating and killing everyone. Finally, the newly fully empowered Kaladin comes flying in to rescue Dalinar and to defeat Szeth. It’s a frenetic climax that I find less satisfying. That, of course, is a subjective judgment, YMMV.
Speaking of subjective, a good book will induce the reader to use their imagination to round out the story or to supply alternative story arcs. That need not detract from enjoying the story as told. For example, the granddaddy of this genre is Lord of the Rings, which deals primarily with the story arc of the Hobbits, Frodo and Sam. In fact, the book was begun as a sequel to the children’s story of Bilbo in The Hobbit. In writing, the sequel, Tolkien found himself drawn into the darker world of Elves and men that he had already imagined. As a result, another major character appeared – Aragorn, the hidden noble warrior heir to the throne of men, who did not have flashback chapters. Instead, his back story and fate is relegated to an appendix. I would have preferred more story time for this favorite character of mine, but I truly enjoyed both the LOTR books and the films, nonetheless. Perhaps the same will be true of Adolin for those fans of his.
38. sheesania – I definitely like your ideas about several arcs coming together making for a powerful climax. What I don’t understand is why so many people think that Shallan’s climax moments in WoR are not powerful, or are somehow inferior to Kaladin’s.
When she saves the army at the end: (plot arc) – finding Urithiru, (magic arc) figuring out how Oathgate works/lighting the lamps by transferring stormlight from gems/using her own blade, (character arc) accepting she is a Radiant and revealing herself to the world. Why is this not powerful? Because she is not directly involved in the battle and doesn’t kill anyone? Or is it because she did not do it ALL by herself? I mean there was a big flash of light when she activated the Oathgate. I have seen others say that was important in Kaladin’s climax moments :)
Her other moments of saving the caravan and infiltrating Amaram’s study also have all three arcs in a climax.
My personal favorite is saving the caravan and “Transforming” the deserters. She was doing some glowing in that one. Again, why is this not powerful?
@38: This is a very good analysis as to why Kaladin’s climaxes seem more complete and satisfying on a readers point of view, which is of course, as STBLST says, entirely subjective. This being said, my numerous musings have made me realize most readers did appreciate the Kaladin climaxes more than other characters, likely for the reasons listed by sheesania.
I try to avoid the book structure discussion as much as possible because everyone knows I am unhappy about it. I have found it is practically impossible to discuss it without drawing the ire… The line is very thin in between wishing an author would exploit a particular story arc we, as readers, are extremely found of and criticizing the same author for not doing it. In the end, no matter what the authors chooses to write (or not to write) will always displease at least one person. I unfortunately happen to be the one person who is currently displeased by the future plans, as I have seen them and as I have understand them. It gets on many people’s nerves.
@39: I have used the nomenclature the author himself has used in his latest status update to describe how he pictures each character. I am unfortunately not trying to make a point, especially not a point I don’t like. I’d rather I was wrong in my understanding, but there is a limit to interpreting the words of the author: he has been more than clear on this particular subject.
Based on the two books I have read, I do consider there is a vast gulf in terms of character development in between those who get the “chance” to become main protagonists and those who aren’t. Is it going to remain the same for all books? I cannot say, but based on what I have glimpsed, it is fair to assume it will. While currently tertiary characters Eshonai and Szeth are getting this promotion and while minor characters such Jasnah and Renarin will as well, Adolin isn’t.
I also would not place Adolin on the same level as Elhokar, Sadeas or Hoid… One is a POV-less character with limited impact into the main narrative who is cowering from any action, the other is the antagonist and the last is a “special” character used more or less as a plot device, but not one who is inline for development. Adolin has had significantly more POV and action than any of those characters: having other expectations than the reality was entirely warranted.
@40 posted the diagram in question. It shows exactly what contribution is to be expected for tertiary characters and how much less it is when compared to the main ones.
@41: It is funny you mention LoTR which I must have read at least 10 times… My favorite character obviously was not Aragorn, it would have made my life way too easy… It was, of course, Boromir who die in book 2. While I have enjoyed LoTR (you don’t re-read 10 times a book you hate), I had wish Boromir had survived as reading him confronting Aragorn for the leadership of Gondor stroke to me as a more interesting story arc than the one we have got instead.
I had spent a ridiculous amount of time reading every single fanfiction I could get my hand of, only a handful were satisfying, but it isn’t the same as reading it in the book. Seeing the character you favor grow in order to own his own story arc and to watch your hopes and dreams for him come to fruition has to be any reader’s most satisfying experience. I wish to live long enough to see it happen for myself.
This being said, the sad truth about fanfiction is very few are used to explore unwritten character arcs. The majority of them are used to explore male/male shipping which isn’t exactly my cup of tea.
@42: Shallan’s moments were very important to the main narrative, but most readers found they didn’t carry a OMG moment through them. Also, for some reason, a lot of readers dislike Shallan thinking her too “lucky” and not “deserving” enough her successes. They prefer Kaladin’s darker tortured depression filled arc as it makes his successes more “earned” while Shallan’s “happy go lucky” attitude makes her sound as a silly girl who only succeeds because the authors wants her to. I don’t partake this sentient, but it is one I have seen expressed often enough.
The power level of a given scene however is entirely subjective. The problem with the deserters scene is many readers were just baffled by it, what happened is not clear, and to some, it felt as if Shallan had turned into a Mary Sue. In other words, they didn’t believe, with the clues they had, she could do this if not for being a plot device.
@@@@@38. sheesania – As I thought more about it and read other’s comments, I think there needs to be a lot more than multiple arcs being resolved to make a climax “powerful”. Your example of Shallan’s climax moments in TWoK points to that. I do think her confrontation with Jasnah at then end was the climax of all Shallan’s arcs and the climax of the entire book: (magic arc) she bonds (re-bonds?) with Pattern and enters Shadesmar for the first time consciously (character arc) Shallan confesses all to Jasnah, figures out what Jasnah is doing, and becomes her true student (plot arc) the wider system of magic and spren and saving the world is revealed. However, many people do not think this was powerful. why? Below are some additions to making a climax powerful:
1. Danger, peoples lives at stake.
2. An enemy is defeated.
3. People are saved.
4. An OMG moment.
5. Must have a dedicated chapter or two to it. (Can’t be a part of other climax moments, takes away from its power, probably why people don’t think Shallan’s WoR climax was powerful)
6. And can’t take place in a library LOL
Glad my theory could be interesting!
@@@@@ adjbaker: About Shallan’s climax in WoR: I think the plot and magic elements are good, but for me the character climax didn’t seem strong. Shallan’s decision to reveal herself as a Radiant seemed more for convenience than anything else. Summoning Pattern was a nice moment, but overall the focus of those scenes were on the plot and magic issues. They were exciting (because of the plot arc: can she save Dalinar and co?) and interesting (because of the magic arc: how do the Oathgate and Shardblades work?), but they lacked the emotional resonance of, say, Kaladin’s decision to save Elhokar.
I’ve never tried using this form of analysis on mid-book climaxes, only ones at the end, so no guarantees on that front! But I think I personally found the deserters scene less powerful (though I still enjoyed it) mostly because Shallan succeeded in large part out of luck. I don’t have a problem with her being lucky (didn’t think she was a Mary Sue or anything), but it’s less satisfying when the impact of a scene comes more from chance rather than a character’s actual actions. The magical component was also pretty small – she did use magic, but she didn’t really figure anything out about it during the main action.
And yes, I would certainly agree that a powerful climax needs more than just multiple arcs intertwined. After all, the ending for each of those arcs needs to be satisfying in itself, and my theory doesn’t attempt to explain what would make them satisfying. The triune-arcs business is a handy plotting trick more than anything else.
But I must disagree that powerful climaxes can’t happen in libraries. Please, read the Alcatraz books. :)
Sheesania and adjbaker – great theories but you have to remember one thing. All of us here are Hollywood- trained, i.e. We expect grand moments. From the parting of the Red Sea in the Ten Commandments to the latest Marvel comics super hero blockbuster. We expect something grand or grandiose.
In short, we are predisposed to like Kaladin’s story arc because he has all the actions. Think like a cinematographer. Imagine the confrontation between Szeth and Kaladin. It’s like a dogfight without airplanes,
Now for Shallan, it was more cerebral. She had to think. And when she said Eureka, Renarin takes her thunder by acting strange. To me, it was like a scene from A Beautiful Mind. It will win the Oscar but it could never be the box office hit like Star Wars is with all the battles and cool effects.
Is It Brandon Sanderson’s fault that we feel that Shallan’s climax is not as grand as Kaladin. Perhaps. but IMO, from the Baby Boomers and beyond, we all expect Hollywood climaxes. It’s just how we think.
@46 sheiglagh: I can’t speak for anybody else here, but I doubt I myself have been very “Hollywood-trained”. I watch about three movies a year, and I spent most of my life primarily reading classics, literary fiction, &c. It’s only recently that I started getting into Brandon Sanderson and other more popular-style authors who are more interested in entertainment than “art”. Most of my favorite book moments are very internal, cerebral, character-focused, with any action or related excitement as a sort of atmospheric background. (I could bring up examples, but I’m not sure what other books folks here would be familiar with.)
FWIW, I didn’t find Szeth and Kaladin’s fight particularly compelling. Okay, it was cool, and it was great to see Kaladin finally being awesome after spending so long depressed and inactive. But for me, Kaladin’s real moment came when he stood and refused to let Moash kill Elhokar. There was action, danger, &c there, but the focus was on his internal decision and commitment. The action and danger was just an extension of that.
ETA: Regardless of whether any of us have been influenced by Hollywood in particular, I would definitely agree that we’re all conditioned somehow by the media we consume. (I’ve certainly been conditioned by all that literary stuff I read, just in a different way. For one, I have a very bad visual imagination and can barely follow written action scenes.) So yeah, even if author is doing everything “right”, they can’t control what their readers’ influences and thus expectations and tastes will be like.
I seldom watch Hollywood blockbusters. They are always the same boring stuff with explosions and car chases instead of plot (often the 10th sequel of the 3rd remake, because coming up with a new story instead of adding more explosions to an old one is too much effort).
The only wow moment in a fight between Kaladin and Szeth was when Kaladin healed the shardblade wound. The rest was just normal action hero stuff where you already know Kaladin will win because he is the good guy.
sheesania and birgit – by the mere fact that you watch movies and can pinpoint Hollywood blockbusters mean that you are affected. :-)
Case in point for me – I don’t listen to rap music. I cannot stand the profanity. But, I know 50 Cents, P. Diddy, Kanye West and some other rappers. I might not like their music. But just being alive and hearing glimpses of it ( I cannot avoid it) made me aware. The effect on me of rap music – I cannot stand profanity, even just to make a point.
If you read Michael Crichton, you have Hollywood. If you read Tom Clancy, you have Hollywood. These authors actually wrote their books with cinematography in mind, as if they already know it will be made into movies.
Anyway, it’s just my opinion. We are Hollywood trained because we are alive. We have to live under a rock so that we will not be affected by it. We are even into reality TV without watching reality TV. Goodness gracious, I have never ever watched an episode of The Kardashians, nor even know what channel it is. But I just cannot avoid Kim Kardashian. So, am I reality TV fan? No I’m not and I will tell you vehemently I’m not. But I’m affected by Kim Kardashian because I cannot stand her. :-( Again, I have to live under a rock not to be affected by the Kardashian.
Just my opinion.
@49 sheiglagh: Eh, I could keep arguing about exactly how affected I’ve been by Hollywood/Western pop culture in general, but it’s mostly beside the point. I’ve been influenced to some extent, but I doubt it has been a large factor in the development of my expectations, tastes, &c in media. The country where I live, actually, is fairly isolated from Western pop culture. A lot of people probably would say that I live under a rock! I can easily go for months without hearing any mentions of rap music, popular TV shows and movies, mainstream literature…I haven’t developed a particular aversion to these things (yet! :P), in fact, because I’ve barely been exposed to them. But I’m aware that they exist because of the Internet, even though they’re not a large part of the geeky subcultures where my main Internet presence is.
Anyways, enough about myself. The point is that even if I’ve been conditioned to some extent by Hollywood, I doubt this particular influence is playing a large role in my reaction to WoR’s ending. But it could certainly be different for others.
sheesania @@@@@ 50 – Oh the ending of WoR is perfect for me. :-) It’s perfect for Shallan’s character, perfect for Kaladin and even for Adolin, Dalinar and Renarin. I said that because it fits their characters. I don’t need dramatic endings or climaxes.
Have you ever read The Time Traveler’s Wife? The ending in the book is better than the ending in the movie. The final page are lines from the Odyssey. It’s beautiful and perfect ending for the story. No grand cinematography in the description. Just lines from this classic poem. :-)
That’s how I see the ending of WoR. It’s not dramatic. But just perfect for the characters. The same way that in The Time Traveler’s Wife, I just cannot see a better ending for Henry and Clare than lines from The Odyssey. :-)
For those who think Shallan’s climax moment in WoR was not dramatic enough, I have thought up a new “Kaladin-like” dramatic ending:
With Adolin at her side Shallan realizes the Oathgate building is a fabrial with a spiral stairway in the middle leading to a control tower.
Crem has blocked the way to the top of the tower and Adolin is not able to clear the way without damaging the structure.
Shallan realizes she must soulcast all the crem into smoke to get the Oathgate to work. She asks for all the stormlight gems to be brought to her.
Pattern and Shallan go to Shadesmar and see an army of red creatures (storm spren) and an army of blue creatures (wind spren) converging on her.
She realizes there are thousands of crem beads she must transform. Pattern represents thousands of voices that say “We are crem!” Shallan thinks “Not this again.” and pulls in all the stormlight from hundreds of spheres and pushes it into the crem beads. “No, you are smoke!” Massive amount of power flow through her and she collapses.
Shallan wakes up in Adolin’s arms exhausted. She tells him she must make it to the top of control tower to activate Oathgate. Romantic arguing between Adolin and Shallan.
EDITED for even more drama: And even more:
As Shallan and Adolin reach a door at the top Pattern becomes a full size Cryptic and tells them, “Shallan must do this alone.” Adolin argues ,but Shallan walks through the door at the top and shuts the door.
Shallan stands on the tower top and sees a scene from Damnation itself: Two storm walls are converging on the armies trapped on the Oathgate plateau which has become a beautiful oasis of stone structures without any crem.
Shallan must activate the Oathgate but she is exhausted, does not know how, and has no stormlight.
Just before the two storm walls reach the plateau, Pattern stands before her and says, “You must speak truth.” Shallan flashes back to a carpet white and relives the entire scene. At the end her mother is going to kill her father who is fighting with the other man. Pattern becomes a shardblade in her hand and Shallan rushes to help her father. Her mother is knocked into Shallan and the blade goes through her chest.
Shallan returns to herself with tears running down her face and Pattern a sword in her hands. The two storms are crashing together just above her in a mass of red and white lightning. Shallan raises Pattern above her head. In grief and defiance of the storms that are about to crush her, she declares, “I killed my mother trying to save my father!”
An enormous ray of stormlight comes from the heart of the Highstorm and Shallan explodes with light. Pattern expands into a dome of patterned stormlight that covers the entire plateau and into the building itself where Shallan is able to see ten paths to ten cities. Shallan is overflowing with power and shouts “Urithiru” and focuses all the stormlight down that path. The entire plateau is bathed in stormlight and Shallan feels herself wink out of existence.
EDITED for question: Is this the type of climax scene you would want for Shallan?
@51 sheiglagh: I haven’t read The Time Traveler’s Wife, but I think I get what you mean. The perfect, quiet ending, with deft, beautiful characterization – it’s lovely. In the end, I look for well-developed characters and ideas in books. Action scenes, drama – for me, all that is just window dressing that makes the book more fun. It’s mind candy, so to speak. There’s a certain straightforward pleasure in watching Kaladin battle Szeth, but ultimately his arc works for me because it satisfactorily resolves his internal struggles and the ideas that were brought up along with them. Or in other words…what you said!
I really don’t want to sound snobbish, though. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with enjoying a great cinematic action scene or cleverly paced plotting. I just happen to particularly appreciate character and thematic work and other “literary” stuff because of my background. Too many of those dead-dog-and-mother books that Alcatraz likes to complain about.
Something strange happened to my comment. It originally followed @50 sheesania or @51 sheiglagh, but was given an @1 designation and then disappeared.
That Shallan climax would be awesome but I have a feeling that either Shallan would be dubbed as a Mary Sue even more or those who root for Kaladin would protest that all his build-up led to a non-satisfying conclusion. Maybe both. Just goes to show that ya can’t please everyone.
Based on the few latest posts, I do believe the question should now be: “Why is it most SA readers prefer Kaladin as a character over Shallan (or anyone else)?”. The key may be here. While we don’t all agree as to what makes up for a powerful climax, we can probably all agree Kaladin’s climaxes were deeply action-oriented coupled with several do-or-die moments. We can also all agree Kaladin is the overall preferred character: he may not be mine or other posters favorite character, but we have to acknowledge the fact he is the one who gets regularly listed as “best fantasy character”. Also, whenever there is a “most favorite character”, Kaladin wins hands down: there is no contest to be had, nobody is even close.
So why is it Kaladin is almost universally favored by the readers (and the author it appears considering Kaladin seems to be inheriting of the most powerful scenes and arcs as well as having more POV time than any one else)?
Is it because, as sheiglagh suggested, our minds have been conditioned to prefer action oriented characters such as Kaladin due to our over-exposure to Hollywood made-in blockbusters? As a result, because he is at the art of all fighting scenes, he is favored in the imagination of most readers?
Is it because Kaladin is an under-dog, the member of an oppressed group which de-facto makes him more sympathetic than a member of the ruling class would be? There is a never ending stereotype (either founded or not, I will not go there) wanting members of the rich class to be evil manipulators who didn’t earn their keep while wanting the members of the poorer class to perhaps not have material means, but having morality superiority. Is Kaladin preferred because he is persecuted?
Is it because Kaladin’s story is filled with physical torture and beating which more easily understandable than emotional trauma such as the one Shallan goes through?
So why is it Kaladin’s arc feels more satisfying to a majority of readers (not all) than any other character?
@52: In all retrospective, I prefer the original ending. It befits the character better than this one: not all characters can explode in light (and I would wish for Kaladin not to explode in light in the next book because… repetition).
@53: You can’t be snobbish for preferring one piece of art over the other. Being snobbish would be if you were claiming intellectual superiority over those who would prefer the average blockbuster, but you aren’t.
@@@@@56. Gepeto – I definitely agree with all you said about the majority favoring Kaladin. I think you covered the reasons I like him. I really am not that interested in generalizing preferences. I like to understand the specifics and logic of a person such as yourself. My personal favorite has always been Shallan, as I like to delve into the topics she likes, such as science and philosophy. I find her more surprising than Kaladin, and I definitely find her magic more intriguing.
I found WoR quite satisfying as Shallan’s book and I loved all her climax moments. The only thing missing was the details of her mother’s death. Usually, I am very happy with how many secrets Sanderson reveals in his books, but I felt cheated on this one point. I believe many others share that feeling.
I take it from your previous comments, that your current favorite is Adolin. I definitely enjoyed the details revealed in WoR. All his dueling scenes are my absolute favorite “battle” chapters. I enjoy the description of his duels the best because of the way Sanderson describes them much more generally with the shardblade stances. It leaves much more to the imagination. I find the descriptions of when Sveth and Kaladin use their powers to be too detailed and the language used to describe them as unnatural.
That being said, I don’t really have a desire to hear Adolin’s backstory. I much prefer to image all his failed romances and even his dueling training. I enjoy the hints about his failed relationships and wondering eye, but don’t need to dwell on them. I look forward to more Adolin chapters and hope that he is somehow able to truly bring the spren in his shardblade back to life. I love the way he talks to his sword.
@57: I enjoy reading Adolin because he is different than your average fantasy character and I have found this very refreshing. He isn’t brooding nor introspective nor an under-dog and I rather liked that. Moreover, I have a lot in common with Adolin: his behavioral patterns are quite close to my own, his manner of being, how he interacts or not with people… He’s an over-achiever, a hard worker who seeks perfection and doesn’t allow himself the right to make mistakes. He doesn’t let people get to know the real him probably because he feels people either wouldn’t understand or aren’t interested as it lacks the tragic elements which draws people in or makes them sympathetic. No matter how you put it, Adolin is afraid of not being good enough for others which I truly relate to. I too never was good enough, in a way, and I too stick my foot into my mouth more often than not.
I could write an entire essay about it which is likely why I can relate so easily with the character.
The failed relationships are interesting to me because of what they tell us about the character and how it may come into play in future development. Why can’t Adolin stick with one girl is an important part of his character and, the way I personally envision the story, the root cause should in part cause his future hardships. The author is probably not going to fully exploit it, but it was a story I wanted to read, probably because it is one I could relate to on a more personal level than say Kaladin or Shallan (which doesn’t mean I don’t like those characters, just that I don’t have much in common with them. I can relate to certain arcs, but not all of them and not in way I can relate to the little arcs we have got for Adolin).
In any way, fear not, we aren’t getting this story. The Blade one? Perhaps. I don’t know if Adolin has enough POV to pull it of convincingly.
I also liked Shallan’s arcs in this book: it started up bad, on the ship, but it got better after she was shipwreck. I enjoy reading how she took control of her life: it was refreshing. I had expected her to end up being manipulated the whole, which she is, in a way, but at least she had some agency.
Kaladin just has all of the WOW moments and the badass scenes. It is hard not to like him, but he did get on my nerves in Part 4.
sheesania @@@@@ 53 – If you are into character development and plots, then I suggest reading “The Nightingale” by Kristin Hannah. It’s about the Second World War in France and the story of two sisters. It’s an epic and harrowing story, beautiful and poignant. I can go on and on about this book. It was #1 on the New York Times Bestsellers for some time. I think you will enjoy it. :-)
Now, for Renarin fans and Steris fans here, I suggest Rain Reign by Ann M. Martin. It is about a girl with Asperger’s syndrome. The main character, a fifth grader named Rose is a high functioning autistic. A great read. After reading it, I understood Steris better. And though up to today I do not understand why Renarin is interesting, I started figuring out why Brandon is giving him a book. :-) It is definitely an interesting choice and I would love to see how Brandon handle high functioning autism. I definitely enjoyed Rain Reign and fell in love with Rose, the main character.
Oh, before I forget, I think it’s Birgit (I’m unsure) who commented that the Kaladin / Szeth fight was not interesting. *Raising eyebrows in surprise* Are you kidding me? That is by far the most cinematic in this series and something Hollywood will eat up, even video games. It reminded me of the confrontation between Cloud Strife and Sephiroth in Final Fantasy 7 and the low budget turned blockbuster Chinese film Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
The big sword of Szeth, and Syl changing from sword to spear to shield is just awesome. Anyway, I just have a tendency to imagine the action as I am reading or listening. Though Kaladin is not my favorite character, he sure does have some moves.
As for Adolin, I don’t want to discuss him because the most dramatic moment with him is at the Shattered Plains fighting the Parshendi, his horse dying, fighting Eshonai, facing Szeth. That whole chapter was just too emotional for me. So I will discuss it when we get to that chapter. I have felt enough heartache on that whole chapter about Adolin.
Welp. It’s a bit distressing to realize that we’re at 60 comments, and this is my first… I had to go back to the index to get to the thread when we fell off the “New In Series” list, because this wasn’t in my conversations! I don’t think that’s ever happened before. Anyway… I don’t actually have that much to say, but I have to get this on my list.
STBLST @53 – I saw that… that was weird. I read your comment and noticed the odd numbering, and when I came back, it was gone. Very weird. Just before that, it was showing the comment list twice. Oof.
@many, but on a much earlier conversation – I just can’t buy the idea that the enormous glowing figures on the plateau were stormform Parshendi. I went back and looked up every reference to the physical appearance of stormforms, and it just… doesn’t fit. But since we have no further evidence to look at, I’ll just wait and find out. This is going on my list of Questions.
@54 STBLST: I also saw your comment, but when I reloaded the page to see new comments it disappeared.
@56 Gepeto: Here’s a thought on why Kaladin is such a popular character – he has a mixture of familiar and new traits that works well for a lot of people. He’s a classic heroic underdog, but he also struggles with depression and has real prejudice. He’s always saving people like many other protagonists, but his protective instincts are initially quite selfish and he needs to move past that. He’s a soldier and action hero, but he’s also a surgeon. Sanderson uses the tropes, but he twists them, plays with them, elaborates on them in many cases. So Kaladin feels like a very familiar character, someone we’re used to rooting for, but then he also surprises us by being more interesting and complex than we expected.
I think Sanderson’s ability to balance the familiar and new in general is one reason that he’s a compelling author. He likes his fantasy tropes, and he personally has archetypes and themes he keeps reusing. But then he deconstructs them, reconstructs them, responds to them, and keeps pushing them in new directions. You have this comfortable foundation of familiar literary elements, but then lots of creativity on top of it.
Anyways, I enjoyed your description of why you like Adolin. Shallan is probably my favorite character – Kaladin’s bits are sometimes more fun to read the first time, but Shallan’s stick with me. She was initially my favorite because, similarly to you, I could relate closely to her. Her insecurity, her shelteredness, but also her stubborn commitment to saving her family rings true for me. And I enjoyed reading about her studies, even though biology is probably my least favorite science. :) Then WoR came along and I realized that we had quite a few more significant differences than I had thought, but I also came to admire her more. I love how resilient Shallan is, and how she finds ways to make a difference even in situations where she’s very restricted and weak. It’s been very satisfying to watch her journey as she becomes more confident, experienced, and self-defining.
@59 sheiglagh: I’ll have to check out those books! Rain Reign came up in my Amazon recommendations one time and it looked interesting. I really enjoy the occasional middle-grade book as a break from the grown-up stuff, I usually find YA too dramatic and focused on romance and sex.
Kaladin’s fights aren’t uninteresting, but other things like character development are more interesting that just action (part of why Kaladin’s fights are good is that other things happen in them like the discovery of new aspects of his magic). Characters like Shallan who solve problems in different ways are a nice change to the dominance of heroes who “solve” problems by killing everything. Kaladin isn’t really like that, but there are too many stories where it is fine if the hero kills because he is the hero (Kaladin himself has problems with killing without good reason, like refusing to fight Parshendi).
Szeth is a deconstruction of the action hero who is cool because he is so good at killing. The book starts with him being cool because he fights so well and knows all about the magic, but then it says “wait, what he’s doing isn’t really great”. The rest of the book shows just how wrong it is that people like him are often the hero in action movies.
This contrasts with Kaladin, where being cool because he is good at fighting is played straight. It is fun to read about his fights, but the contrast with Szeth’s story reminds you that killing isn’t really such a great thing.
Shallan kills, too, but in her case it’s not “she’s cool because she can fight so well” (although Vatah might think so), she kills because something is going very wrong.
Let me try to rationalize my attraction to the Kaladin character in the series. Hopefully, it won’t suffer the same fate as my earlier comment. What is most appealing about Kaladin is his adopted mission in life to save others regardless of his consequent harm or death. He starts on this mission having no powers or special skill – other than high intelligence. As a result, his initial focus is on saving his kid brother on the battlefield. He is devastated by his failure, but forces himself to become an expert spearman. His talents are noted and he is made a squad leader. The squad then becomes his focus for preventing harm. In his efforts to save Amaram he, however, causes the killing of his team by the opposing shardbearer and then the ingrate. Once made a slave by Amaram, his focus is initially on saving other slaves from the miserable slave’s life. Once, again, he fails and those that he led in escaping are killed. Then he is sold to Sadeas’ bridge crews, where he takes the leadership of Bridge 4 and strives to keep his men safe in the face of impossible conditions. By then certain of his powers are evident to some, if not to him. He gradually becomes accepting of those powers and uses them consciously to save his crew. The climax of such efforts comes when he is confronted with Sadeas’ betrayal of Dalinar and his army who are trapped and are being decimated by a much larger Parshendi force. He realizes that he has the only means, an intact bridge, to save those remnants. He abandons his original thought of fleeing the battlefield with his crew and encourages them to put the bridge in place, despite facing a vastly larger opposing Parshendi force. As usual, he places himself in front of the action despite his total exhaustion. He succeeds due to the granting of greater power when he takes a new oath. He then takes on the large responsibility of commanding and training Dalinar’s guard battalion consisting of former bridgemen.
Having been so introduced to Kaladin in book 1 of the series, it is possible to overlook the frustration in dealing with his unhealthy focus on vengeance and his prejudice against the ruling class exhibited in book 2. The saving grace is his ultimate selfless defense of the king, whom he despises, against shardbearers. He survives the attack of his erstwhile comrade by taking a new oath of protecting even someone he hates – if that is the honorable course of action. That provides him with the full set of Windrunner powers that he uses in battling Szeth to save Dalinar.
While some are attracted to those characters with whom they sense some commonality, I prefer the heroic model if it is coupled with moral and ethical stature. The genre is fantasy, after all.
On a completely unrelated topic, I’m throwing in another quotation from this chapter:
We’ve discussed before the various implications of what it means to be “broken” in the context of becoming a Radiant – or a magic-user in the Cosmere in general. Someone going by the username BrandonO is apparently speeding through the reread, and made a very insightful comment back on Chapter 24; in this context, it’s particularly relevant. He quoted first from Chapter 68 (Bridges), where Syl and Kaladin are arguing about his choices:
Then he goes on to say this (emphasis mine):
That makes so much sense to me. It’s not merely being broken, suffering some kind of trauma, being abused or mistreated or what-have-you. It’s being damaged by something, and then getting up and carrying on anyway. “Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.” Perhaps this is why Shallan is the only one of the Davar family to become a Radiant: she’s the only one who really continued to try despite the crushing blows she was dealt. Granted that she was already bonded to Pattern, so there had to be some form of breaking/continuing earlier in her life, it stands to reason that her character was the same before as it is now: someone who gets back up and keeps going.
He goes on to say:
To Dalinar’s burden, I’d potentially add the whole question of what happened to his wife, and what he sought from the Nightwatcher. I think this is also an intriguing angle to view Elhokar: if he turns away from being bitter about his failure, sucks it up and decides to learn, to do better… maybe he can become a Radiant. It’s even possible that he’s moving (however haltingly) in that direction, as per his talk with Kaladin upcoming in a few chapters; we did note back on Chapter 24 that there are times Elhokar seems to heal more quickly than he should.
There’s more at his original comment, but I don’t want to copy it all here. That was the main point I wanted to bring in to this discussion.
@@@@@58. Gepeto – Wow! Thanks for sharing your personal connection with Adolin. You have a powerful way of communicating. I see Adolin in a different light now and look forward even more to where his story will lead.
@@@@@61. sheesania – Your comments on why you like Shallan definitely resonate with me. You said it better than I can.
@@@@@64. STBLST – I love your break down of Kaladin’s “heroic” attraction. Absolutely one of the great things about fantasy.
Sanderson does a great job in SA of having different types of heroes and villains. He probably has a check list of all the arch-types. Sanderson is so very organized and methodical in the planning of his stories. You know, sometimes the formulas really work!
@@@@@65. Wetlandernw – Great insights on being broken. This reminds me of the Thomas Covenant series. One of the major themes being: There is no power in innocence, that must be protected. Power can only come from the guilty.
This makes me shudder when thinking about Szeth. Is anyone more broken than he? How powerful could he become, if he can somehow overcome all that has been done to him.
This is also what fascinates me about Shallan and her power to “Transform.” She seems to be able to intuitively find the broken places in others and heal it.
Kaladin and Dalinar of course have been able to transform people, but it is more tied to leadership and setting the example.
@64 STBLST: Good thoughts on Kaladin. As you point out, he’s classically heroic and appealing in his determination to protect others, and that’s one reason he’s attractive as a character. What I personally find really compelling, though, is how Sanderson takes a closer look at the trope he’s using and examines why Kaladin wants to save others. Is it to prove himself? To assuage his guilt? To rebel against his oppressors? To genuinely help others? To be an honorable man? Kaladin’s motives are complex, and they shift and develop over time. I love how we see Kaladin moving from primarily just acting heroically (in TWoK, where he acts mostly out of stubbornness) to truly being heroic, wanting to protect, wanting to do what’s right even when it’s very painful for him on a number of levels. His desire to act with honor is a central part of him, but it got twisted by pain, guilt, desire for revenge…Over the SA so far we’ve watched him slowly untwist it into its true nature, and become who he really is and wants to be. Now that I think about it, there’s an archetypal kind of Creation-Fall-Redemption arc going on: we watch Kaladin’s desire to protect being formed by his father, then twisted as he struggles with pain, and then restored and made deeper when he comes fully into being a Radiant.
I guess I see Kaladin’s heroic journey as being not so much about protecting people, but more about how he protects people. It goes to show how deep Sanderson’s writing of Kaladin is: on one level it’s about Kaladin stubbornly persevering and overcoming terrible obstacles, but on another level it’s about why he perseveres, how he perseveres, what makes it worthwhile.
So yeah. In the end I find that the characters I enjoy most are ones that I both relate to and admire, Shallan being one of them. Obviously I consider Kaladin heroic and so admire him, but I relate more to Shallan and her particular brand of heroism, so I wind up liking her more.
@65 Wetlandernw: Thanks for sharing! And BrandonO for pointing this out. I’m not sure how much we can tie an idea of continuing despite brokenness to the raw mechanics of the magic, particularly when we start looking at Cosmere-wide phenomena like Snapping in Allomancy. (I probably have some WoB in my notes on what’s going on with Snapping, Surgebinding, and Investiture that relate to this if you all are interested.) But I think continuing despite brokenness could have very much to do with the philosophical foundation of the Radiants. Perhaps just going through trauma is what makes your Spiritual aspect crack and become open to Investiture, but if you’re going to attract a Radiant-spren and be able to commit to Ideals, then more is necessary.
Also, this quote from Pattern in chapter 13 may be relevant:
@59: Apart from reading the POV of an autistic character, I do to not comprehend how Renarin’s past is interesting enough to warrant him one of the few and precious themed book. I understand the interest in the writing exercise it represents to extrapolate on the viewpoint of someone on the autistic spectrum, but it strikes to me Renarin isn’t the most interesting story to be told. In other words, just as you, I understand the “why”, but I guess he isn’t a character I feel overly sympathetic with nor one I see myself having a positive connection.
I agree Adolin’s most dramatic moment is on the Shattered Plains. I personally preferred his little insignificant bouts to Kaladin action-hero fighting scene. I liked his previous scenes, but the last one was a bit too much for my personal tastes.
This being said, I too was attracted to Kaladin’s effort to protect others and his ability to keep on trying despite all adversity, but I got tired of his inner monologue and his intense victimization towards the end of WoR. The fact he is depressive also isn’t an aspect of him I enjoy reading about. I also ended up thinking he was a bit too much… Can I really believe he is a plausible character?
It was great to hear why other posters liked Kaladin. These were great posts.
As for the brokenness, this has been a theory of mine for a while now… I don’t remember where I posted it, but the idea was people put too much emphasis on the “broken” criteria to the point where they started place-holding every single potentially broken character into orders: Lirin, Laral, Hesina, all of the bridgemen, etc. They are all most likely broken, so they have to have what it takes to become Radiants. I have been advocating the opposite: it isn’t the brokenness which is the criteria, but how you deal with it. In other words, you ability to attract a spren is tied in to your ability to resonate the right attribute despite having lived through hardships which should, by all means, destroy your will.
It wasn’t because Tien died that Syl got attracted to Kaladin, but because he acted to protect the members of his squad. He was being protective to serve the greater good.
It wasn’t because “something happened in her youth” that Pattern got attracted to Shallan, but because she crafted powerful lies to embellish her family life. She was being creative to serve the greater good.
It wasn’t because Gavilar died that the Stormfather gave the visions to Dalinar, but because he tried to be more honorable by honoring the Way of Kings. He was being pious to serve the greater good.
These are also why I do see Adolin as a Radiant and not Elhokar. Elhokar has never raised one finger in order to help the greater good which seems to be the requirement to attract a spren. In other words, he may be broken, but he hasn’t turned it into a strength, it hasn’t forced him to reinforced a particular quality: it only made him worst. The sprens aren’t attracted to the brokenness: they are attracted to your actions you still manage to pose despite being broken. Elhokar has not done anything in this regards which is why the sprens he saw can’t mean to bond him. It is completely backwards. He hasn’t shown any distinctive quality nor do I think he is truly capable of it. I personally see no reason why he should be a Radiant, it seems as a cheap plot line and it doesn’t force Dalinar to face up his issues with respect to his nephew: it only makes his leniency be warranted when it wasn’t.
Gepeto @69 – “I do to not comprehend how Renarin’s past is interesting enough to warrant him one of the few and precious themed book.” A lot of people felt that way about Shallan at the end of TWoK, too. It’s the discovery that makes the book worth reading.
@70: I have given some more thoughts this evening as to why I didn’t find Renarin overly interesting and I believe I came up with an answer.
Renarin isn’t a character which is defined by his relation with other characters. In other words, there is no relational conflict in between Renarin and other characters. He is well loved by his family, whole heartily supported, overly protected and cared for by everyone who is close to him. His father dotes on him immensely, his big brother is always there ready to defend him: there is no conflict to be had. Renarin isn’t jealous of Adolin’s successes (I don’t believe one second he may be harboring a secret jealousy), he is very supportive of his older brother, he obviously care for him much and he perhaps hero-worships him a little. I saw nothing wrong with his relationship with his father other than a father doting on his son and wanting to please him.
Renarin’s main issues seem to sprout mainly from himself. His ordeal appears to be a very internal one, a very private one. Nobody ever told him he absolutely had to be a soldier: it is quite the opposite. I don’t buy the argument the Ardents did: we have seen enough examples of high-ranked lighteyed who aren’t soldiers for this to be entirely true. His family also tried to encourage him to pursue a path where they think he would excel. Isn’t what family is supposed to do? Encourage a child to play out his strengths? In all appearance, the Kholin family has done everything right in trying to help, shelter and encourage their disabled child.
Therefore, all which is left is Renarin himself. He is the one who isn’t dealing with it. He is the one who self-depreciated himself: not his family, not his relationships, not anyone. Him.
It thus makes Renarin’s hardships a very personal one, one which is lived inside his head.
It happens that I, as a reader, enjoy when characters interacts, when their is conflict within those interactions, when their relationships and bonds are trialed, but there is none of that with Renarin. His backstory will likely deal with deep introspection and this isn’t something I enjoy reading in characters. Well I enjoy some of it, but to read an entire book where the main protagonist is mostly in his head? Not my cup of tea.
Adolin for instances has unresolved and unacknowledged conflicts gravitating around himself pertaining every single one of his relationships and this is widely more interesting to me, as a reader, than Renarin’s inner monologue. All this makes Renarin a very boring character to read (to me of course others may disagree): he seems better suited as a supporting character than a main one.
I agree about Shallan though I didn’t personally have any particular opinion on the matter when I first picked up WoR. The fact remains many did share these thoughts. I have seen it expressed often enough. This being said, I recalled I wasn’t convinced by her arc, at first, but she soon ended up interacting with other characters and I liked it better. I loved when she finally made it to the Shattered Plains because: interactions.
In other words, character interactions and potential conflicts within those interactions make up for a story I personally find more interesting. I don’t find reading a character deep within his victimization thoughts interesting to read: it probably is why I find Szeth POV profoundly boring to read. It is just the words of a mad man: it bears little interest to me. Renarin strikes me as one of these characters who would carry one similar kind of POV: just his thoughts, little interactions with others and whenever it happens, there won’t be conflict or anything to settle.
Gepeto @@@@@ 69 and 71 – I don’t know how popular Renarin is. Personally, I think he is not interesting. I find Rock, Teft and Sigzil more interesting than Renarin. But, for some strange reasons he has fans. I can’t figure it out why he has fans. Goodness gracious, he really has not done anything and after two books, Renarin has never had a POV. So, I am truly perplexed.
That said, in the Mistborn second trilogy which is going to be a quad before it ends, Steris is not a POV character either. But, she has had enough interactions with the POV characters that I actually liked her in her first appearance in the first book. I did not see her as anything but a background character which I usually call NPC (non playing character) if I use the video game lingo. Of course, I was totally wrong.
As it turned out, Steris is very important. And though chances are she will continue to be a non POV character, her importance in the narrative cannot be denied.
Renarin and Steris share one common trait – they are in the spectrum. And if we use 21st century lingo, they have a “diagnosis”. Still, both are high functioning. And if you read the Wax and Wayne Mistborn series, you will understand why I am beginning to understand why Renarin is interesting.
Although I have to say that other than “outside” the narrative, that is in WoB, the 17th Shard and in here, I don’t see or feel as if Renarin is a high functioning autistic. And that is actually what baffles me.
With Steris, I immediately suspected that she has a “diagnosis,” though my suspicion was ADHD. I was wrong of course, but that is beside the point. Back to Renarin, I really don’t see anything in him that suggests he has a “diagnosis”.
Again, I have to trust Brandon that he has his reasons why he is giving Renarin a book, albeit in the second half of the series. After reading Bands of Mourning and Rain Reign, I actually became very interested on how the book will be written and how Brandon will handle Renarin and his “diagnosis”. I am even looking forward to the final book in the Wax and Wayne Mistborn series so that I can find out more about Steris.
One note on Renarin getting flashbacks: This will be happening after the time skip between books 5 and 6 (unless Sanderson majorly shifts his plans). So Renarin could get involved in something new and more interesting during the time skip, and then the flashbacks could portray that.
sheesania @@@@@ 73 – Yes, you are probably right about that. And chances are that is how it will pan out. My problem with Renarin is not about the character per se. My problem is that so many things are being said about him “outside” of the narrative.
Renarin is in the “spectrum”, he is this and that. But those are not in the narrative. And though I love the Stormlight Archive, I really am not into reading the 17th Shard or any Wiki about it. I just don’t have the time for that. And then I will hear something about Renarin being in the “spectrum” and it is nowhere to be found in the narrative. All I see is blood weakness, which is more physical than mental.
It’s different with Steris for me. From the first book, I saw her as being neurotic, with fondness actually. I have friends who act like Steris. In fact, sometimes I feel that I am also neurotic. LOL I can relate to Steris not because she is a woman but because she is so “today!” Making lists and keep on checking them, that is so much in my world and in my work.
But Renarin being mentally challenged? I don’t see it up to now. I see a physical illness but not mental. And that is what is bothering me.
sheiglagh @74 – The autism spectrum is about a lot more than being “mentally challenged.” Steris’s autism-spectrum disorder and its presentation happens to be one you can relate to; so far, Renarin’s isn’t… for you. Plenty of people picked up on the in-book hints, and were glad to have their suspicions confirmed when Brandon made the comment about him being on the spectrum. We just haven’t really seen very much of him yet, so the only “odd things” most readers picked up on were his “blood weakness” (which may have nothing to do with the autism, I don’t know), his fiddling with the little box, and his overly-thoughtful speech.
Personally, I think it’s going to be fascinating to see Brandon get inside his head. Perhaps this is affected by my own son’s disability, but I’m looking forward to more of Renarin.
Alice @@@@@ 75 – Perhaps you’re right, but I still don’t see it. His fiddling with his box is something a teenager or a young adult will do, even I who is older do with my cell phone when I’m bored. Thoughtful speech? Many people I know do that. With the job I’m in we have to be careful on how we put words together whether it is on paper or how we speak. And no, I’m not in politics. I’m just in a business wherein words mean so much.
His blood weakness – perhaps its epilepsy, or something. But Renarin is not on screen so much that it really is hard to see that he is in the spectrum. If you can tell me which ones, then I will gladly go back to the books and re-read the passage.
Perhaps I’m surrounded by people who are all mentally challenged. LOL I know I am. LOL But, quite frankly, unless someone points me the exact places where Renarin showed that he has a “diagnosis” I won’t see it.
Do you, or the teens in your life, carry a cell phone with you solely for the purpose of having it to fiddle with when you need it? Do you know a lot of people who habitually spend enough time thinking before they speak – even in casual conversation – that others think it’s creepy? We’re not talking about business presentations, or how you handle yourself in a meeting; we’re talking about normal, everyday conversation.
Renarin’s little box, which he always has with him for no purpose other than something to do with his hands, is recognizable as a form of stimming – but only if you have someone in your life who has a similar habit. (My son has a small digital voice recorder that he carries everywhere, and he records some very… odd things, and plays them back until they drive me crazy. He also likes to swing it around by the wrist strap all the time.) The over-careful speech is also recognizable – but again, only if you have someone in your life with a similar trait.
I don’t think Brandon intended to make it a Big Deal at this stage of the story. Renarin will become more important over time, but up until the duel debacle he was almost a bit part – essentially Adolin’s sidekick. Now, as a Radiant (assuming Brandon isn’t setting up a twist wherein his spren is lying), he looks to become more important, and I think it will be interesting to see how his bond affects his neurological issues. YMMV.
@74 sheiglagh: Ah, I think I see what you mean. I don’t have an issue with Brandon Sanderson just dropping little hints for people to pick up on or not, but it does bug me sometimes how much (in general, not just with Renarin) gets revealed outside of the books. It can be fun for someone like me who enjoys and has time for reading Theoryland and 17th Shard, researching and hunting down tidbits. But I feel like it’s giving an undue disadvantage to the people who just read the books. If you’re not “in” on 17th Shard and all the WoB floating around out there, you miss out on a lot. So yeah, I like seeing Sanderson write these sorts of characters and be open about it, but it still bothers me that he adds so much to his books informally.
I know I initially loved Steris because she proved that a sensible, level-headed, logical, organized, and not-particularly-emotional person could still be an awesome and interesting character. I myself tend towards the cold logical side of things, and so often find myself when reading books as the annoying straight-laced older sister or even the bad guy. Steris goes to show that such people don’t have to be irritating or boring. Finding out that she’s on the autism spectrum just made her more interesting!
@78: I know the confirming of stuff outside of the books can throw people. When I asked Peter about Renarin’s box 2 years ago and found out he was autistic, it threw me. I think I sat there for 1 minute going, “oh..” But I had other questions and wasn’t sure how long Peter would sit around, so moved on.
With Steris, I can understand it not being mentioned in world. We don’t really have clues about how mental health is handled in Mistborn. And Steris is a high function adult with a belief of “people find me cold.” So there is no reason to believe they have recognized her behavior as a special type of mental condition. Much like pre-1970s where were just crazy people, slow people and weird people. Unless there were obvious physical deformities, I don’t think the behavioral mental disorders received much attention or understanding by others in general.
If we compare Wax & Wayne’s time to the 1910s – when the word autism was first used, I feel Brandon played it right.
@72: Renarin’s popularity has been propelled by the initiative of 2-3 hard-core fans who, for some unknown reasons, are within close communication with Brandon Sanderson. Once upon a time, they were very active into the fandom, not so much anymore, but, as a result, it has created the impression Renarin is a much more popular character than he truly is.
Up to this day, I sincerely believe the author is over-estimating the popularity of Renarin within his readers while he is under-estimating Adolin’s popularity. It is also possible Renarin is a much more interesting character, on an author’s point of view, than a reader’s point of view which may be why he earned himself a book while getting so many mixed reviews among the fans. In other words, Brandon wants to write more Renarin, but while most readers agree an occasional POV would be warranted, many disagrees with him being set to become a major player. Why? You’d have to ask the question at large, but it is a sentient I have seen expressed often enough.
@73: This thought has crossed my mind, but since Renarin is a very inward character, I doubt it will change the prospect. I suspect Renarin’s POV will be very introspective and personal which I can’t say interest me widely, as of now.
@75: Since Renarin is a character I have so much trouble with, I took the time to google onto autism. It appears autistic children are more at risks of developing seizure, so the two are likely connected.
I agree there were hints, but I also share sheiglagh disbelieved as it took a great deal of time to actually see it. As for Steris, I wouldn’t have been able to tell just based on reading Alloy of Law. This news came as a surprise to me.
@78: It has been one of my point of contention for many discussed aspects: you basically need to discuss them to understand them. Renarin’s autism isn’t obvious to the casual reader, worst most readers didn’t even took any special notice of Renarin. Those who noted he was autistic and started talking about it were those few hardcore fans who truly loved the character and who deeply focused on every one of his sparse appearances.
While Renarin has been given little story time to date, he is a sympathetic character – even if odd. He has little fear of death (judging from his running unarmored into the arena in a futile attempt to help his brother), no jealousy, and no expectations of being treated in a manner befitting his princely status. He is willing to plead with Kaladin to be admitted into the Bridge 4 fellowship in order to be useful, and gradually becomes accepted. As Kaladin later explains to the father, as a ‘misfit’ he fits very well into their collection of such people. I expect that Kaladin, if he has spare time, will correctly diagnose Renarin’s condition as being a brain issue other than epilepsy. As mentioned, Renarin exhibits some classical Autistic Spectrum behavior such as a compulsive and repetitive play with an object, pausing before any reply, and exhibiting sensory overload under stress (his so-called ‘blood-weakness’). That makes him different – not less sympathetic. I expect that he will become more important to the narrative as it progresses.
@79 Braid_Tug: Yeah, I can definitely understand Brandon Sanderson not explaining Steris and also Renarin’s disorders in world. Honestly, despite my complaining, I don’t have a problem with his revealing this particular bit of information. I understand there haven’t been reasonable chances to do so within the books, and it’s not like it’s a huge, unexpected revelation. My issue is more that it’s one more step along the slippery slope of adding stuff to his books. Sanderson has always been very reasonable about it – you can tell that he’s planned everything he reveals ahead of time, and he’s not just making stuff up – but it still makes me uncomfortable. I don’t like feeling exclusive.
@80 Gepeto: My point about Renarin is that even if his conflicts so far have all been very internal, there’s plenty of room for him to have lots of external and/or relational conflicts during the next few books and the time skip. However, one could debate about whether Renarin’s personality means that his conflicts will always primarily be internal.
@82: Renarin’s conflicts may not always be internal, but seeing how the character’s personality has been defined so far, I’d say it is a strong possibility.
In his defense, we have seen very little of Renarin so far, so it is impossible to determine how interesting he is or could be. The character wasn’t given a fair shake, yet, that’s all.
And something else occurred to me – as a Truthwatcher Renarin has strong clairvoyance, yes? And as we have seen, the process of bonding can be rather lengthy and subtle in it’s effects. So, maybe rather than being spoiled or petulant Renarin _knew_ that he had to become something of a warrior, despite everything that spoke against it? Maybe he had been seeing glimpses of the future or having weird premonitions for some time.
It is also easy to see why people may have become interested and invested in Renarin despite his being just a bit character so far. He is yet another underdog archetype, that we have been conditioned to expect to become a hero, the less successful younger brother, who so often gets propelled into the leading role in (speculative) fiction.
I really loved what Sanderson did with Steris, so here is to hoping that if he sticks with his plan to make Renarin a flashback character in the second half of the series, he’d go for something interesting with him as well.
Personally, my favourite characters were Dalinar and Jasnah in WoK and Shallan in WoR (so glad that Jasnah wasn’t fridged in it!), so yea, not a huge fan of Kaladin, even though Sanderson made a good effort to refresh the trope and make him interesting. I like Adolin a lot, too.
But I do feel for people, who become attached to secondary/teriary characters. Happens to me all the time. In LoTR, I was enamored of High Elves and was burning to read more about Gil-Galad, Glorfindel and Galadriel. It also happened due to various reasons, that I read the first volume fully 2 years before I could get my hands on the other 2, and all that time I have been imagining all the wonderful stuff that the rest of the work must have contained about these characters :). Oops!
Undaunted, I picked up Silmarillion, expecting to read lots of great things about my chosen characters and yea… there was barely anything there, and in addition, High Elves in it were generally less alien, more human-like, and thus less interesting (IMHO). But I have picked yet another favourite from it – Finrod Felagund. Surely, there must have been more about him and my LOTR stalwarts in the extended Tolkien Oeuvre, right? Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales 1 and 2, Lays of Beleriand and so forth. Alas, I was bound to remain bitterly disappointed. Not that I didn’t enjoy Silmarillion and the extended work anyway, but there it is.
Oh, and in WoT my favorite character was Moiraine, so yea. But Rand was my second-favorite, and there was much more to reccommend the series, so that worked out.
Two comments – likely my last comments on a not-current thread.
First, on Kaladin’s conversation with the Stormfather: I wrote up this post on a more recent thread, detailing my thoughts on what causes a spren to initially bond a human. There’s some M:SH spoilers in there, but I wanted to highlight one of the clues that made me come to the conclusion I did in that post: the Stormfather continually calling Kaladin “Son of Tanavast” and “Son of Honor.” It strikes me that Stormfather does this precisely because of (whited out due to spoilerishness) Kaladin’s Connection to Honor.
Second, on the budding “romance” between Kaladin & Shallan: There is obviously an attraction building here. However, just like in real life, there’s not necessarily any real path that MUST lead from physical attraction to anything more serious than that. And while I personally don’t find the idea of the pairing to be so troublesome as many others seem to (yes, they’ll have problems, but every relationship does. Theirs will simply be different problems.), I think things could legitimately progress in any number of directions here.
I originally rooted for a very different outcome on the romance arc than what occurred with Wax in Mistborn 1.5. But the thing is – the way it resolved worked, and I think probably better than what I’d been pulling for. I decided at that point that I would relax my expectations for SA and trust that Brandon will do what is best. Admittedly, as I don’t really have a horse in this particular race, that is a LOT easier than it was with Mistborn. :)
What?!? All this time, and nobody chose to run with Airsick Wetlander’s obvious prompt? Huh, guess it’s up to me then.
…Sat a minor of a miner, and her plaything, a dark-ayed.
She was perky, ate chull-jerky,
Drew a solid pencil-line,
But no knowing where you’re going,
Which way west for Kaladine?
True confessions, therapy sessions,
And some wordplay asinine,
Storm is wailing, Ship is sailing,
And you’re smitten, Kaladine.