Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Taravangian saw the fruition of his plans in Jah Keved, and got a surprise visit from his favorite (!) assassin. This week, Part Five launches with unanticipated alliances, unexpected revelations—and a discarded cloak.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 76: The Hidden Blade
Point of View: Kaladin, Dalinar, Sadeas
Setting: the Warcamps
Symbology: Spears, Talenel, Shalash
IN WHICH Kaladin rejects his own surgical advice; his boyhood fantasy is fulfilled; Sebarial unexpectedly joins the expedition—and brings Palona with him; all are flabbergasted by the arrival of Aladar; Sadeas and Ialai explore and scheme; Dalinar finally understands Aladar; Kaladin watches Adolin and Shallan ride by, then salutes Dalinar; an apology is due; Dalinar has a new Shardblade; the erstwhile head of the Knights Radiant is dismissed from his position; Sadeas writes off his former ally and begins planning for new associates.
Quote of the Week
Aladar met his eyes. “I think the things you say about Alethkar are naive at best, and undoubtedly impossible. Those delusions of yours aren’t a sign of madness, as Sadeas wants us to think— they’re just the dreams of a man who wants desperately to believe in something, something foolish. ‘Honor’ is a word applied to the actions of men from the past who have had their lives scrubbed clean by historians.” He hesitated. “But… storm me for a fool, Dalinar, I wish they could be true. I came for myself, not Sadeas. I won’t betray you. Even if Alethkar can’t ever be what you want, we can at least crush the Parshendi and avenge old Gavilar. It’s just the right thing to do.”
Aladar is more honorable than he thinks he is, and this entire conversation proves it. This was one of the moments on my preliminary list of “Reflections” back when I was doing pre-WoR-release teaser posts, because it shocked me. Just a few paragraphs before this, Dalinar suddenly realized that, all the time Aladar was arguing against him, he was only trying to convince himself that Dalinar was wrong. Because this is what he wanted all along, but couldn’t quite believe in it. He’d spent the last six years (or whatever) torn between idealism and realism, and allowed himself to be pulled closer to the pragmatic side of his nature. Now, when it comes right down to a decisive action, he throws his cynicism to the wind and chooses his longed-for ideals. And I love him for it. It’s just the right thing to do.
Off the Wall
This is, observably, a new unit, specially constructed for the Part Five epigraphs: excerpts from the Diagram.
They will come you cannot stop their oaths look for those who survive when they should not that pattern will be your clue.
—From the Diagram, Coda of the Northwest Bottom Corner: paragraph 3
This chapter’s epigraph is the same passage as was quoted in Interlude 14, which Taravangian now understands to be a reference to the Knights Radiant. While I suppose it does provide another bit of confirmation of the accuracy of the Diagram, it seems like a very clear-in-hindsight-only piece of information. It’s difficult to say without the context, but should he have figured this out sooner? Or did he, and just thought that having identified Jasnah and (perhaps) Shallan, he had it covered? Ah, well. As they say, it’s a mistake any deranged halfwit could have made.
This selection also gives us an early hint as to the structure—or lack thereof—in the original writing: punctuation is entirely missing, because obviously any intelligent person can figure it out, right? Except when they can’t… which may come into play later.
Commentary
Welcome to Part Five: Winds Alight. And it is indeed going to get windy up in here, in more ways than one! Between the out-of-pattern highstorm, the Everstorm, Kaladin regaining and leveling-up in his ability to ride the wind, and the final battle cresting the stormfront, there’s a whole lot of wind coming.
This chapter hops POVs repeatedly, as it juxtaposes Kaladin struggling, Dalinar coordinating, and Sadeas scheming. The last, being the shortest, is easiest to take first.
Sadeas and Ialai, wretched snakes that they are, display their contempt for Dalinar’s summons by going for a ride in the opposite direction, which not coincidentally takes them out through the area where Sebarial has begun his farming operations. Ialai, frustrated by the failure of her assassin, is proposing a coup to take down Elhokar while Dalinar is gone. Sadeas, however, surprised by Dalinar’s actual commitment to the expedition, is confident that, with him dead on the Plains, no coup will actually be needed. Angered by Aladar’s decision to join Dalinar, he dismisses them all, and begins a new round of scheming. Irony must be served, however:
“I was merely thinking,” she said, seeming distant. “About the future. And what it is going to bring. For us.”
A word in your shell-like, Ialai: you aren’t going to like it.
Dalinar is on the giving and receiving end of multiple surprises. It was looking like just the Kholin and Roion armies going out to confront the Parshendi, and then Sebarial turns up, with a fashionably-garbed Palona, in a carriage, looking for all the world like they’re going on a picnic excursion. With an entire army. But the bit that gives me the shivers is this:
“I’ve got a feeling about you, Dalinar old man. I think it’s wise to stay close to you. Something’s going to happen out there on the Plains, and opportunity rises like the dawn.”
I suppose it could be just a good business sense… but this is Sanderson. I can’t help thinking there’s more to Sebarial and his “feeling” than rising opportunity. I do think it would be marvelous fun if he turned out to become a Radiant. I know we’ve had this discussion before, but this speech gives me a feeling of further surprises to come.
Dalinar’s other surprise, Aladar, I already addressed in the QOTW. But I’m going to insert one other exchange, just because it’s so good:
Aladar extended his hand, but hesitated. “You realize that I’m stained through and through. I’ve got blood on these hands, Dalinar. I’m not some perfect, honorable knight as you seem to want to pretend.”
“I know you’re not,” Dalinar said, taking the hand. “I’m not either. We will have to do.”
As we’ll see in the next book, Dalinar certainly has blood on his own hands. Neither of them is clean and perfect… but they’ll have to do. There’s no one else.
Moving on to Kaladin, he seems to be having a “do as I say, not as I do” day. Knowing full well that he should stay off his injured leg, he drags himself off to the parade ground to watch the armies march. His men give him fetch for doing it, but they are glad to see him. There’s an uncomfortable moment when he registers one decision that was made without him:
“Brightlord Dalinar asked me leave our best man behind with a team of his own selection. They’ll watch the king.”
Their best man…
Coldness. Moash. Moash had been left in charge of the king’s safety, and had a team of his own choosing.
Storms.
That’s all he does with it for now, though. There’s not much more that’s particularly noteworthy about Kaladin’s POV (except the bits in Sprenspotting and Shipping Wars below), until we get to… THAT… PART. Where the Dalinar-arc and the Kaladin-arc overlap for a few minutes of pure excellence, as Dalinar forces Amaram to meet Kaladin face to face.
“Brightlord,” Amaram said, taking Dalinar by the arm, “I don’t know if the lad is touched in the head or merely starved for attention. Perhaps he served in my army, as he claims— he certainly bears the correct slave brand. But his allegations regarding me are obviously preposterous.”
Dalinar nodded to himself, as if this were all expected. “I believe an apology is due.”
Kaladin struggled to remain upright, his leg feeling weak. So this would be his final punishment. Apologizing to Amaram in public. A humiliation above all others.
“I—” Kaladin began.
“Not you, son,” Dalinar said softly.
The first time I read this, I literally came right out of my chair—laptop and all. I was all, “No, Dalinar, nonononono… uh… Oh! OH YEAH!” And there was fist-pumping, I’m pretty sure. Despite not wanting to believe such a thing of Amaram, Dalinar set up his test. Whether that’s because Sadeas destroyed his trust, or whether he’d have done it anyway, I don’t know, but he played the long game here, and it paid off. Amaram proved himself to be a liar and a thief, and he remains completely unrepentant. Some “son of honor” he is.
There are two additional points I must make about this scene. One is the Blade Dalinar summons:
Wider than most, it was almost cleaverlike in appearance.
We’ve talked about this before, but it bears repeating: this is not the same Blade from the epilogue to TWoK. That was described as:
…long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike.
Unfortunately, we’re no closer to an explanation for the discrepancy now than we were last time we debated it. Someday.
The final point is Amaram’s attitude. I find it bewildering, but at the same time, it fits. It reminds me of a JordanCon panel I was watching earlier today, where Seanan McGuire was saying that “your main villain has to see himself as the good guy; if he doesn’t, you’ve failed.” (Or words to that effect. I didn’t memorize it.) Amaram totally sees himself as the hero of the piece, bizarre as that seems.
Amaram looked Kaladin in the eyes. “I am sorry for what I did to you and yours. Sometimes, good men must die so that greater goals may be accomplished.”
Kaladin felt a gathering chill, a numbness that spread from his heart outward.
He’s telling the truth, he thought. He… honestly believes that he did the right thing.
Sadeas is a jerk, and he knows it, and he doesn’t care; for him, the highest standard is his own power and wealth. Amaram, though—he really thinks he’s doing the hard things that need to be done, because they’re the right thing… in his mind. Taken completely out of context, I could agree with his words: sometimes, good men must die so that greater goals may be accomplished. IMO, the defense of one’s homeland or the freedom and safety of the innocent is a high enough goal that those who die to defend the rest of us are heroes, not fools. I have nothing but the highest respect for those who volunteer to put their lives on the line so that we can be free. The problem here, at least for me, is that Amaram figures he’s qualified to make that determination on his own, and the men who die shouldn’t need any explanation or rationale from him. Those who joined for the sake of “punishing the people who killed our king!” deserved better than to be sacrificed for the dubious goals of the “Sons of Honor.”
Stormwatch
This scene takes place on the same day as Chapter 75—which is to say, day 61 of the book, day T-8 of the countdown, or day 1 of the expedition. We’re sneaking up on the climax.
Sprenspotting
No actual spren were observed in the reading of this chapter, but there’s something I’m going to quote anyway, because it’s worth quoting.
“I’ve lost the ability, Lopen,” he said softly. “Syl has left me.”
The lean Herdazian fell unusually silent. “Well,” he finally said, “maybe you should buy her something nice.”
“Buy something nice? For a spren?”
“Yeah. Like… I don’t know. A nice plant, maybe, or a new hat. Yes, a hat. Might be cheap. She’s small. If a tailor tries to charge you full price for a hat that small, you thump him real good.”
“That’s the most ridiculous piece of advice I’ve ever been given.”
“You should rub yourself with curry and go prancing through the camp singing Horneater lullabies.”
Kaladin looked at Lopen, incredulous. “What?”
“See? Now the bit about the hat is only the second most ridiculous piece of advice you’ve ever been given, so you should try it. Women like hats. I have this cousin who makes them. I can ask her. You might not even need the actual hat. Just the spren of the hat. That’ll make it even cheaper.”
Just the spren of the hat. Oh, Lopen. You’re awesome.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
I realize this is totally insignificant. So? The visual of Dalinar haring off on his Ryshadium with everyone else trying to keep up on their horses, only to arrive just in time for him to take off back the way they came from… this gives me fits of the giggles. I want a Ryshadium of my very own, and I’ll bet I wouldn’t be allergic to him, either. So there.
(I’m deathly allergic to horses; can’t breathe within 10 feet of one, even outdoors. It’s very sad.)
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
Well, he’s not a world-hopper in the usual sense, but… hey, look! There’s Isaac Stewart! A.k.a. Isasik, the royal cartographer, who is seen here in a snit because everyone is praising Shallan’s map. Or because everyone says she drew it when he drew everything she draws. Or … this is getting too metaphysical and fourth-wally. Hi, Isaac.
Heraldic Symbolism
I’m not 100% sure of the rationale on this pair. Talenel, the Soldier, is easy enough, especially when you add “dependable/resourceful;” those are well-represented in this chapter. I don’t get Shalash, though; what does “the Artist” have to do with it all? Shallan is only barely seen. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Shipping Wars
Kaladin found himself standing up amid the bridgemen, despite the pain of his leg, as he noticed Adolin and Shallan riding past. He followed the pair with his eyes. Adolin, astride his thick-hooved Ryshadium, and Shallan on a more modestly sized brown animal.
She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile. She said something clever; Kaladin could almost hear the words. He waited, hoping that she’d look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance.
She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool. A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn’t. The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit.
Perhaps Kaladin could hate that.
Awww. Poor Kaladin. I don’t think I’d call it “love,” but there is a certain interest displayed here. Of course, we don’t know yet where Sanderson is going to take this, but this was one of several passages that really make me hope that Shallan and Adolin stay together. I believe Kaladin is correct when he observes that “those two were good for one another. They fit.” I also believe that he will leave it at that, though it’s a bit sad-making to see that he feels a need to hate something when he doesn’t get the girl.
Just Sayin’
“Well said, you old turtle!”
Heh. In context, maybe it’s not a terribly Roshar-specific wording, but I love it anyway.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when the armies begin their long trek across the Plains, while Kaladin returns to the barracks for an uncomfortable conversation.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and is excited to be attending her first JordanCon next week. Wheee!
“Not you, son.”
Those three words give me good chills every time.
Hi, I’m new to this re-read. Just curious, but why is only 1 chapter covered a week? I see this re-read started back in 2014. Isn’t that a little…excessive? Anyways, love all the work done here. Just wish we could cover more ground faster!
@2. I like how the pacing is. Going this slow keeps us readers up on where we are in the story for the downtime between books, so we can, theoretically, pick up book 3 totally caught up.
@2, because they take a lot of time and effort? Especially to do well….
To paraphrase Mesaana’s quote about prophecy/foretelling in WoT: everything is always clear once the prophesized event occurs.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Brandon has gotten better about pacing his “Brandon cascade climax”, but you just know the action is heating up when multiple POVs shifts start happening in quick succession.
Sebarial – this is the chapter I really start to feel like Sebarial and Breeze from MB are almost the same character. It’s reinforced when he’s lounging under a tent in the storm later.
So will any of Ialai’s recommendations become the next Highprince? Book 3, I can’t wait!
But Sadeas is right. If things had failed and Sanderson was writing a different story, no coup necessary to attach strings to Elhokar or his heir.
Punctuation: the whole diagram was written in a type of shorthand. Long hand takes too long. So when thoughts are tumbling over each other – the first thing to go is pesky little things like periods or proper spelling.
Nt wh u kn rd wds lk ts
Love the QotW.
And the part of how much blood both of those men have shed in their various wars.
And FINALY: Amaram / Kaladin
Amaram is taken down (sort of)! The event we all waited for the entire book to happen! Not the epic fight some wanted, but Dalinar was really spot on. Amaram’s reputation was everything to him. He’s broken now.
What will Book 3 bring?
The Greater Good:
What a phrase that can have extremes!!!!
The way Amaram uses it.
The way Elend uses it.
The way Harry Potter uses it.
(Yes, I’m staying away from how RL examples have used it. )
Isasik = Isaac Stewart?
I feel so slow… That is awesome!!!
quite nearly the best moment in the book. loved this chapter.
@@@@@ Alice – I totally agree with you on this one
I really want Sebarial to be a Radiant, like a WillShaper. I know that many has discounted him. He is not a POV character and he has very little screen time. Bridge 4 has more screen time than him. But, he is very interesting. In a warlike society, he is a businessman. In a very segmented society, he goes against the grain and takes up with a foreigner and a dark eye woman. In a very Victorian society (actually more conservative than Victorian), he cohabitates with a woman. And he is a high prince to boot!!!
So, if there is someone who is the poster boy of rebelling against Vorin teachings, Sebarial is it! Still, he “employs” many priests.
I like Sebarial. I can see Shallan’s brothers thriving under his care and tutelage. He might not win swordmanship awards but he has a keen mind. I vote for Sebarial being a Radiant.:-)
@1: Totally agree.
@2: the format was established by the previous leads of the Re-Read. And yes, it was as 3 & 4 say. It was a way to stretch our enjoyment of the current book while waiting on the next book to come out. And it takes a lot of thought an time on Alice’s part to do it well. So much is about to happen in the next grouping of chapters, I would hate to see the pace increase. That would muddle the great comments that happen in the main posts and in the comments.
At one point it looked like we would be reading Book 3 by the time this re-read ended. Now we are looking at a mid? 2017 release of Book 3. So no rush is needed.
Regarding Sebarial’s good feeling, I always figured that was largely influenced by Shallan’s report to Palona in chapter 60. “Among Jasnah Kholin’s notes are these indications of something valuable hidden out on the Shattered Plains. Will keep you informed of my discoveries.” Her backup plan for getting out onto the Shattered Plains turned out to be quite useful in helping Dalinar.
I too get chills from “No, son, not you,” but I also want to give Kaladin a cheer for how much he’s matured between Adolin’s big duel and now. He knows he’s right, and Amaram is a bigger snake (what’s the Rosharan equivalent of a snake?) than Sadeas, he knows it is humiliating and unjust. For all that, though, in the interests of the bigger picture, out of respect for Dalinar, as an atonement for messing up the chance to duel Sadeas (though Elhokar shares the blame for this as well), whatever his reasons, he is willing to do as Dalinar asks and apologize to the piece of utter crem that is Amaram.
So that’s awesome, and then Dalinar says his line, and I am just all cheers!
I think it is Shalash because of the exchange with Amaram: the truths we distort and the lies we create when we tell the story of ourselves to ourselves. He does think he is a hero afterall.
Austin @2 – Welcome to the reread! Glad you’re here, and that you’re enjoying it. Most of the answers to your question have already been given, but I thought I’d chime in. (I’m Alice, btw.)
When we began the reread, we deliberately set it up at one chapter/week, in large part because that would have us finishing the reread just in time for the pre-release goodies for the next book. (Clearly we’ll have a longer lapse now than we’d anticipated, but there it is.)
One of the other things we wanted to do was to use the recurring units to dig a little deeper into the worldbuilding, and it’s been a great tool. It has two effects, though: we get to dig into subjects of interest in each chapter, but it also takes more time, energy, and research to do it well. I’ll freely admit there are times when my research is sketchy at best, but if I were trying to do two or three chapters, it wouldn’t happen at all.
Anyway… there are times when the pace really does seem awfully slow, but then there are also times where the lively discussion keeps up for the better part of the week, so IMO it’s worth taking it slow. On the bright side, I rarely feel the need to take a week off; if the timing is going to be dodgy, I can generally arrange to work ahead. I might have to skive off the comments, but that’s the least of my worries. :)
Also: @many – “Not you, son” has to be one of the best lines in the book, right up there with “she smiled anyway.” Oh, the vindication!!
Luke @11 – I like that idea. Amaram is definitely the hero in his own version of the story, even though he’s clearly told himself some convincing lies to make it so.
@12 Speaking of pacing, there was that one day which stretched over how many chapters?
Thing is, all he says is “I…” I took it as he was gathering himself to protest. But Dalinar seemed to think he was actually going to apologize. Don’t know if he was right. Great moment, anyway.
Ben M
@15: Given Kaladin’s mindset before this it seems much more likely he was going to apologize. Both for a good reason – he learned from the chasm sequence and has more of an appreciation for the position of other people – and for a bad reason – he doesn’t even look like he has the fight to protest right then, he’s still emotionally drained both from the chasms and from just being in poor health with his hurt leg.
“Not you, son,” is probably my favorite Dalinar line in the book, partially because it precedes one of Dalinar’s most cunning maneuvers. It captures Dalinar’s progress as a politician.
Kaladin observing Shallan and Adolin: while I’m not sold on either ship, I really love this part here. Mostly because it appeals to the romantic in me to have a person giving up on their feelings because they feel like the person is in a better relationship (although various romantic comedies have shown that the mileage you can get out of that varies DRASTICALLY). As for Kaladin’s line about hating that, I could see it as being serious but I think, at least in this moment, he’s more making fun of himself: Kaladin is a bit more accepting of his general disposition as the grump after the chasms sequence I think. Of course it’s still bitter and has bite, but that’s probably partially him being in a bit of a funk because of his leg, even though emotionally this is a good chapter for him.
I could see Sebarial as a future KR, as we definitely need some more minor ones, but I always felt his appearance here is more because of Shallan and the goodwill she brought. But then it could also be both…
re: Shalash, this is perhaps a bit of a stretch, but Dalinar kind of destroys Amaram’s “face” here, doesn’t he? He rips away the illusion of the responsible Brightlord, the head of the Knights Radiant, the great Amaram.
You could even take it a step further (though I freely admit this is getting really speculative) that Shalash is destroying depictions of her because they are inaccurate or show her as something she’s not, which is mirrored in what Dalinar does.
re: the pace of the ReRead, at least you can count on Alice to provide lots of cogent, well-thought out commentary. Plus, Thursday is a GREAT day for tor.com because we get Mari Ness’s Disney post as well. And I think the Harry Potter posts go up on Thursday too?
Hi Alice! Thanks for the in depth response. It makes sense now. Though I will admit I love this series and I wish we could discuss all the chapters now :)
Austin @@@@@ 18 – oh you don’t have to worry about that, we jump around here so many times. It’s the beauty of this re-read. :-) just to give you an idea. We were in the chapter when Adolin was going to meet with Eshonai and he had to ride Dalinar’s horse. Great discussion and great scene. Then all of a sudden we jumped to almost the end when Adolin’s own horse died.
It gets lively around here. And we do talk about so many things. Like the time when one of the commenters is a lawyer in real life. We discussed in here what are the murders that the main characters have committed and their punishments if they are tried in the US justice system.
Hang around long enough and you will find yourself in the middle of a big discussion :-)
… or instigating a discussion if your heart desires (and you come up with a topic that piques others’ interests).
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I think Kaladin’s comment about wanting something to hate regarding Adolin and Shallan just serves as a reminder that he’s still a kid in a lot of ways. I remember in Jr. High wanting to hate the guy who was “dating” the girl I liked. Of course it turned out that once I got to know him he was a great guy, and he ended up being one of my best friends.
I do like that Kaladin sees that Adolin and Shallan fit. That’s exactly how my wife describes couples who belong together.
Nothing relevant to say story-wise, but I’m looking forward to seeing a bunch of you again next week. Safe travels.
On the shipping wars. Alice quotes Kaladin’s thoughts in this chapter showing a hint of something brewing in Kaladin towards Shallan. But next chapter presents Shallan’s thoughts about Kaladin, and it feels to me like someone who is trying to convince herself … I’ll just say that Adolin-Shallan may not be quite as set as some of you hope. We’ll see.
Cue a wall-of-text from Gepeto saying how wrong I am.
@23: AH. May have to wait another day for the wall of text. Sorry to disappoint for tonight.
I bet Shalash is in the chapter heading because Brandon’s artist is in the chapter. Subtle nod to all the amazing work Isaac has done, perhaps?
RShard @25 – Ooooooooo…. That’s an awesome idea! :D
I can’t help but feel a certain degree of respect for Amaram here. He’s a murderer, a liar, and a thief who’s willing to do very slimy things to accomplish his goals, but he also calmly sticks to what he believes in and is willing to take the consequences. When his duplicity is revealed here, he acknowledges what he did, he explains why he did it, and he coolly gives up his position as leader of the Radiants. No desperate excuses, no further attempts to hide the truth, no empty promises to reform. He’s made a choice about what his goals are and what his principles will be, and now he is firmly and calmly sticking to that choice and accepting its painful consequences. I’m not trying to excuse him; I think his conviction makes him even more dangerous. But yet I still find his commitment to his purpose to be an admirable trait, if twisted.
To me, we have yet to see if Amaram is a good man at heart whose ultimate purpose really is to help humanity, and he just has twisted principles…or if he’s an evil man at heart whose ultimate purpose is merely to serve himself, and he’s only justifying his evil actions with high-sounding goals. Is he tragic, or is he a tremendous hypocrite? I don’t know. Maybe there’s not really a difference in the end.
Kaladin’s reaction to seeing how Amaram responds is also interesting to me. He’s chilled by the justifications and by how sincere Amaram is; perhaps he was already beginning to connect Amaram’s line of reasoning with the plot to kill the king, as he does overtly when talking with Moash in chapter 77. I love how Brandon Sanderson interlocks all these characters here: Kaladin, Amaram, Tien, Dalinar, Elhokar and their beliefs and interrelationships all play a role in Kaladin’s climactic decision to save Elhokar and reveal himself as a Radiant.
Ah. That moment just feels so classically Sandersonian to me. Part of why I love Sanderson is that he writes characters that aren’t perfect, but that are ultimately good. His characters have their moments of evil or cynicism or defeatism, but they want to be good, and they wish for ideals, and they are rewarded when they hope and dream carefully. Sanderson acknowledges some of the darker and more complex side of life, but he’s optimistic in spite of it. Regardless of how much I agree with that worldview, it does make for the best kind of delightful, comforting escapism.
And Dalinar’s line “We will have to do” reminds me of Kaladin and Syl’s interchange:
It seems like most of our characters need to realize that the Radiants weren’t quite the paragons of perfection that they expect!
Which, speaking of that…I was trying to imagine Sebarial as a Radiant and was suddenly reminded of Lift. Both could be a bit of a handful, I think… At any rate, he’d make an interesting Radiant. He’s very practical, perhaps more destination- than journey-focused, but we’ve also seen that he’s kind and willing to buck silly conventions when necessary. sheiglagh, the thought of Sebarial mentoring Shallan’s rather intense tragic brothers cracks me up. It would be delightful to see!
Oh, and these lines always make me laugh, even when I know they’re coming:
I think Aladar’s inability to do the wrong thing, his moral instinct winning out, is foreshadowing Kaladin’s redemption at the climax. Both consider themselves flawed, neither in the end can ignore their conscience.
@27 sheesania, I agree that Sanderson creates complex characters for a fantasy genre. No one appears to be entirely good or evil. Amaram, as you pointed out, is a man of principle who is normally considerate of those in his charge (the girl that he employed, for example). Moreover, he appears to have been close to Gavilar and still thinks of him on his way to Urithiru (“we did it”). Yet, when advised by his superior in the Sons of Honor, Restares, to take the shardblade and armor that Kaladin had won and kill the witnesses from Kaladin’s squad – he does so. That betrayal of his own soldiers and their murder or enslavement (Kaladin) marks him as an evil doer despite his otherwise fine traits. Nor does he express remorse at his action once his hidden faults are revealed.
Taravangian is an even more extreme example of such contradictory traits. He is empathetic and has done much good in establishing the leading hospital in Roshar. Yet, his deliberate sacrifice of some patients in order to extract possible prophetic messages is a heinous crime – as is his directed assassination of key rulers of the Vedens which led to the predicted destructive civil war in Vedenar. Following the dictates of some book based on his own writings is hardly an excuse.
Dalinar is an example of someone who had committed evil in the past in seeking the thrill of battle regardless of its merit, but had come to regret his Blackthorn past.
Such tendencies stand opposed to the Radiant motto/oath of journey before destination, i.e., the worthiness of a mission is determined by the means used rather than the ends sought. I believe that Sanderson has made it clear where his own sentiments lie.
Re: Kaladin apologizing or not: I think he was definitely humbled by the time in prison, his interactions with Adolin and Shallan, and the loss of his powers. So combined with the exhaustion of being injured, I suspect he was going to give in and apologize, but it wouldn’t have been a very honest apology. Of course he knows that Amaram should actually be the one apologizing, but besides that, he hasn’t really dealt yet with those humbling events. He’s still fighting them and feeling foolish and miserable; he’s been forced to be humbled, and hasn’t accepted those truths yet. It’s only after saving Elhokar and revealing himself to Dalinar that he has truly acknowledged and tried to deal with those faults of his.
Re: Shipping Wars: It makes me happy that regardless of any interest he has in Shallan, Kaladin’s willing to acknowledge that he likes Adolin and that Adolin and Shallan are good for each other. I would have been very irritated if Kaladin and Adolin finally got on good terms, only to be driven apart again by fighting over a girl! If Sanderson does choose to go the love triangle route, then IMO it will be a lot more interesting (and a lot less cringe-worthy) for these characters’ genuine concern for each other.
@16 FenrirMoridin: I see what you mean about Kaladin’s thoughts about Shallan, though I have trouble reading that part as his consciously deciding not to pursue Shallan because she’s in a good relationship. To me, it seemed more like he was just acknowledging that he shouldn’t begrudge Adolin the relationship with Shallan. He only decides not to hate Adolin; he doesn’t deliberately give up feelings for Shallan. I got the sense that it was more about his relationship with Adolin, and his view of Adolin and Shallan together, than it was about his relationship with Shallan. (Argh, I’ve thought about this way too much…)
It hadn’t occurred to me that Kaladin was making fun of himself with the “perhaps he could hate that” bit! I could definitely see a kind of bitter humor in it.
@23 Alisonwonderland: I get the feeling from those bits that Kaladin figures Adolin/Shallan will happen, and Shallan also figures that Adolin/Shallan will happen, but both are a little distracted by each other. That distraction could develop into something more, or it could easily just fade away. The fact that Sanderson brings it up multiple times means he probably wants to do something with it, but it wouldn’t have to be very much.
While I can understand Taravingian and to an extent even approve of his actions, a person like Amaram does not even come close.The main reason, like STBLST just said is that he kills his own men for his goals. Any villain (or hero) that does that comes off as useless and doomed to fail (and very Disney). Unless you’re powerful enough to handle any plan by yourself, you’ll need people. People who are willing to follow you, respect you (or your goals) and carry on your commands. Fear in your subordinates is not a good enough motivator and killing them accomplishes nothing. A much better plan would have been to allow that soldier to keep the shards and then keep that soldier loyal (like Moash). Maybe you can even get the shards willingly at some point. Without an overriding urgency (which obviously it was not) he had no need of the shards right away.
Moving on to Kaladin, I also agree that he was going to apologize. Part of it was the “enlightenment” that Alice and others mentioned but I truly think part of it is that he saw at as a natural progression. He lost Syl, he was no longer a Radinat, he was injured… why not be forced to apologize to his worst enemy. And I also was impressed with Dalinar and how he handled this situation, especially since I never saw it coming.
Regarding his comment on Adolin and Shallan, I think the attraction is there, and the “hate” was very much self ironic. He liked them both but he has to “hate” something about the lighteyes :)
Finally, I’m really curious what’s with the shardblade Dalinar has since it obviously is not Talenel’s sword at the end of Way of Kings.
@30 sheesania: Oh, that’s a good read of the scene too. When I said giving up on his feelings…well that was probably bad phrasing on my part, as I don’t think Kaladin is the type to pursue a romantic relationship anyways. But it’s hard to even say that confidently because all we know about his romantic past is his young confusion over Laral and then a couple lines about Tarah…So when I said give up, I meant more that he was going to immediately jump to the part where he pretends he doesn’t feel any interest and just gets kind of mopey instead (which might be played seriously later, but here I’ll stick to my idea he’s making mean fun of himself).
It’s hard to say where their relationships will go, but even if it becomes a version of a love triangle, I always took this scene to indicate that it’s more on the Shallan/Adolin side for that to happen. Kaladin likes both too much to interfere, and besides that, he also seems the type to accept feeling romantically disappointed.
It’s definitely hard not to think about this things too much, since we have so much time waiting for the next book. Still better than the speculation for some other series at least!
My own reading of the scene where Kaladin peers intently at Shallan riding by and is disappointed when she doesn’t appear to notice him and his interest, is a harbinger of things to come. He has become fascinated by her, but realizes that she and Adolin are a workable match. Having come to like Adolin, he would not betray that friendship by trying to win Shallan’s love. It is ironic that the above scene that I believe is repeated in the next chapter from Shallan’s perspective is also when she has made a quip to Adolin and awaits his response – which doesn’t happen. At that moment, Shallan muses on the difference between Adolin and the brilliant Kaladin. She attempts to dismiss such distracting thoughts but then embellishes Kaladin’s strength of character to the point where she is inattentive to Adolin. Of course, Kaladin is disappointed or disheartened, being unaware of what is going through Shallan’s mind at that moment. What develops from their relationship is as yet unknown. It may blossom into a romance or become more of a sibling relationship, where Kaladin substitutes for her big, supportive brother, Helaran, and Shallan substitutes for Kaladin’s younger brother, Tien, who kept him on an even emotional keel.
I’m fairly certain I started happy-dancing in my seat when Dalinar said those three words.
Besides, Amaram only has himself to blame for how the situation blew up in his face. Sure, Kaladin put him in an unconventional position by refusing the Shardblade he rightfully won. But killin’ ’em all was not the correct answer, despite the political discomfort stemming from the event. (And if you really did need to do that – a dubious claim – why in the world would you leave a survivor?) Instead, what should have happened is that Kaladin would be immediately – and without negotiation – raised to the highest level possible under the circumstances. A guy who can fight and win against guys with Shardblade and ‘plate is not someone you let out of your control for a second. Then further conversation can take place (with Kaladin being treated with all the respect concomitant with personally saving his superior officer and liegelord from almost certain death) regarding Kaladin’s proper place in the army. And if anyone asked who the darkeyes at the dinner table is, state that Kaladin’s a new protege who’s proven his potential, and neglect to respond to questions for details.
It strikes me that all of this would have taken effort that Amaram didn’t want to spare in his quest to save Roshar by returning the Endbringers, so he took the quick and easy route of killing everyone who might spread the story. Except the guy who actually did the deed, whom he discredited and sold into slavery, out of “mercy.”
Ugh, Amaram’s decisions get worse the longer I think about them.
Everyone knows where I personally stand in the matters of shipping: I tend to agree with Alice here with respect to Kaladin’s reaction upon seeing Adolin and Shallan forming seemingly matched couple. This being said, I also believe we have all progressed far enough in our personal analysis of the story at hand to safely say neither one of us is willing to jump ship until we safely read the next book.
Trying to convince others is thus pointless. We have all heard the arguments of both side:
Adolin’s playful, down-to-earth and caring personality may end up being the right choice to provide Shallan’s the secure and comfortable home she has so desperately seek. However, Adolin is not smart enough to keep up with Shallan. In the wonderful world of SA, he comes across as less intelligent than pretty much all characters: everyone from Dalinar, to Kaladin passing by Navani and Renarin are considered smarter than him. He does not get the word play nor the humor being incapable of offering anything more substantial than superficial conversation.
Kaladin’s outstanding intellect is a better match to Shallan’s brilliant scholarly mind and may end up the right choice for anyone desiring in-depth discussions on various subjects. However, his gloomy and depressive personality is bond to take a toll on happy-go-lucky Shallan and she would irrevocably end up being the one having to constantly drag him out of his sickness.
Shallan has shares physical attraction to handsome, but shy Adolin, but she has shared some level of honesty with dark and intense Kaladin.
What is there to conclude? We are all going to agree it can swing both ways: Brandon has enough cards in his hand to play both hands without pushing on out suspend of disbelief.
However, in order to contribute to the discussion perhaps we should ask ourselves what Shallan wants, ultimately?
To this question, I’d say she is a walking contradiction. On one side she strongly desires the protection house Kholin would provide for her family, creating a safe haven based on their connection, their power, their money and their prestige. On the other though, she does not want Adolin to behave in any way reminding her supposedly protective father. In other words, she wants the butter (House Kholin’s protection) and the money to buy the butter (not wanting Adolin to act protective in any way). What does she want of him?
A trophy husband.
She basically wants a handsome man she can go home to, after a gruesome day finding out clues to unlock mysteries or infiltrating secret societies, cuddle and hug. She wants him to be interested in her without asking too deep questions as she refuses to have him involve himself into her life as it would mean him encountering the risk of being “too protective”. The only thing she wishes of him is the one thing he can’t do: be physically forward.
Shallan is a character which as walked a thin line in between truths and lies to the point where we do not know which ones are which, nor does she. So which one is the truth? Adolin? Or Kaladin? And more importantly, why doesn’t anyone wonder about Adolin’s feelings here? I feel as he were nothing more than piece of chess being shoved on one side to the other of the board, to be played to gain an advantage, but when it comes to relationships, he is the one with issues. Shallan, Kaladin do not have relationship issues: Adolin does and it is important to his character development.
So where do the key to this shipping conflict lie? Is it up to Shallan to simply decide whom she may prefer? Is it up to Adolin to do as he always does: ruin it and run away as soon as it gets too serious? Can Shallan care enough for Adolin to retain him once he starts to back away?
And more importantly, would she even be interested in Adolin if he weren’t Prince Kholin? Would she be interested in Kaladin were he a possible match?
So many questions….
How many times have we seen an author hint at a triangle and not use it?There’s nothing to count because it’s never happened. It’s gonna be a wild ride. I don’t really see either one working out. I’m not not sure that I’ve ever seen any instances in literature (or life for that matter) where a woman has happily chose pretty over interesting, even if the pretty one is a wealthy and a good guy. And the other relation ship has disaster written all over it.
And none of the relationships from previous books seem particularly instructive.
This is going to be fun.
When we first met Wax, Marasi, and Steris in the first Wax & Wayne book, I’ll bet a solid 100% of readers were shipping Wax and Marasi … because it certainly felt much more like the better choice for Wax based on the information we had at the time. Yet, by the third book, I suspect fully 100% of readers would now see it differently. A testament to Sanderson’s skill as a writer that he managed so effortlessly to overturn everything we thought we knew then and just about everybody has an opinion that is the complete opposite of what we started with, and it feels completely natural. That gives me hope that my true ship, Jasnah-Kaladin, is still possible, though if I were a betting man I’ll bet that the final pairing would more likely be Shallan-kaladin than Shallan-Adolin, and we’ll all be thinking “how right they are for each other!”
To many – re: Shipping Wars
I believe it is still too early to tell about this triangle. If you read the whole series of the Hunger Games (I’m talking about the books, not the movies), the author did not call it until the very end.
In another sci-fi/fantasy series, The Lucidites by Sarah Noffke, the author did not reveal the final pairing in the triangle until the very end of the series.
And from what I have seen with the Mistborn Wax and Wayne series, Brandon Sanderson also surprised us with how the pairing went. I don’t want to write a spoiler here but there was a triangle there, too.
As a confessed romance junkie, I believe that Brandon will not reveal the conclusion of this triangle until a much later book. The romance in this series is a side plot meant to bring forward character development. And though some may disagree, love truly makes the world go round! Because quite frankly, no matter what genre we are in, whether it is books or the movies, there is always a boy and there is always a girl, Whether they get their happily ever after or they get a tragic end, there is always that romantic side plot. Unless the story is in the romance genre and that just means it will be the main storyline.
Disclosure – I am in favor of the Adolin /Shallan shipping. But, if they don’t end up together, I don’t really mind. I am a fan of Adolin more than I am a fan of Adolin/Shallan pairing.
Alisonwonderland@@@@@ 38 – Actually, I can see how interesting it will be if there is a Jasnah / Kaladin pairing. Having a cougar relationship will actually make the series edgy, for lack of a better word.
I know that we mentioned it here before already and we had a lot of fun with it. And if Brandon decides to pen it, I trust that he can do much better than George Lucas cougar relationship of Anakin and Padme. That was one of the worst script in Star Wars saga.
I really would love to see Jasnah/Kaladin. Kaladin and his cowboy tendencies with Jasnah’s methodical almost OCD point of view. That will be a great pairing and so much fun. The only thing that can beat them will be the Sebarial / Palona pairing which is more scandalous than the Dalinar/Navani pairing according to the Vorin religion. LOL
Well, we can dream, right?
It will be fun to see how limping Sanderson rides the triangle. I thought that he’d ride the Wax, Marasi, Steris one longer than he did. He’s moved the Stormlight Archive along faster than anticipated. Maybe this triangle will resolve quickly too.
Agree that the Mistborn one was deftly handled.
Re: The Big Ship
See, my problem is that I like both parings too much to pick one over the other, and although it would be fun, it would also be quite agonizing to see the one left out. Usually in triangles there’s an obvious choice. One guy is evil or dishonest or whatever, the other guy is awesome but underappreciated. Or maybe one is truly in love while the other is a bad boy and/or a player. There may be a question of who the lady picks but the guy she should pick is generally made obvious to the reader, especially a reader in tune to the rhythms of the genre. What Sanderson has done is make two protagonists who, each in his own way, are guys we as readers have been conditioned to see as the obvious choice. He then compounds this by making the love interest incredibly complicated as well as a person who weaves truth and lies so well she’s even managed to fool herself for long periods of time. Even if she chooses one, who is to say how permanent that choice will be. Wax and Steris look like a forever thing, but Shallan and Adolin doesn’t give me the same vibe. Shallan and Kaladin seem like a perfect example of a passionate flame out. Then we have the Nahel bond to complicate things even further. If Kaladin does the dishonorable thing and has an affair with Shallan, will that kill Syl? Will Shallan telling that truth ruin her and Adolin while simultaneously strengthening her bond with Pattern? At this point Im hoping Kaladin falls for Jasnah and leaves the relationship between his best friends (Adolin already and Shallan quite soon) to fly or fall on its own.
By the way, I say Adolin is his best friend because they are close enough to be on equal footing. He likes,even loves Bridge 4, but he is their commander. A certain distance has to be built into that relationship for them to effectively accomplish their mission. With Adolin, that distance is not needed. And after they have taken each other’s measure, that distance has disapeared. And frankly they need each other. Adolin, the extrovert with no true friends other than his wierdo brother needs Kaladin so he will have someone loyal, someone who is the type to that has few friends because all his friends are till death. Someone who will tell him what he needs to hear even if at times he may not want to hear it. Brooding Kaladin needs someone he can relate to, someone who knows the pressures of command and the pain of loss, someone to commiserate with to basically keep him human. Someone to guide him through treacherous high society situations since he has within a year gone from the lowest group in Alethi society to one of the most powerful people on Roshar. When Shallan comes aboard she can function as Kaladin’s Tien, buy even when she does he won’t be able to talk to her in the same manner or even about the same things as Adolin.
@31 VladZ: The thing is that Amaram usually does inspire respect and loyalty and doesn’t rule by fear. We all agree that killing Kaladin’s men and forcibly taking the Shards was a bad decision, but it was also an atypical decision for Amaram. His modus operandi seems to be to treat people well and have them serve him willingly.
@32 FenrirMoridin: Yeah, I agree that Kaladin is unlikely to interfere, though if his feelings for Shallan develop further I question whether he’d be able to keep them hidden. So he might wind up interfering accidentally…
@35 Gepeto: I hesitate to say that Shallan has no problems with relationships. Her issues are different from Adolin’s, but I think they’re still there. I can’t recall one person that she’s had an honest, open relationship with – she never reveals the truth about her mother’s death to her brothers, she hides her goals and her past from Jasnah, she pretends to be a different person entirely with Tyn and the Ghostbloods, she obscures her insecurity and true purposes with Adolin, she leaves a great deal unsaid with Kaladin, and so on. All her relationships are based on lies. But more importantly, she’s not trying to form relationships that are true and honest. She’s not confiding in Adolin or openly looking for support from Navani; she continues to shift between personas without actually letting anyone in. What does Shallan want? She wants to be safe, to be comfortable, to have lies without truth backing them up. She likes Adolin partly because around him, she can take on one of those comfortable personas and pretend to be someone she wishes she could be – a sweet, innocent, happy young woman.
But is this what Shallan should want? Is this what she’s still going to want once she has developed as a Lightweaver and as a person, and accepted who she is? And, as you point out, is what she wants actually good for Adolin? This is one of the things that concerns me about Adolin and Shallan’s relationship. If they did really become close, they’d both deal with their issues and become better people for finally accepting a deep, honest relationship. But how will that happen in the first place? Are either of them willing to forsake the mask and be vulnerable to each other? If they don’t, is their relationship only going to reinforce their tendencies to hide their true selves, and thus hurt both of them? I think the Adolin/Shallan relationship could help Shallan, or it could hurt her; ditto for Adolin. It all depends on how Sanderson intends to play it…
So I don’t think that what Shallan wants is really going to resolve the issue, because her current wishes are based in an unhealthy attitude towards relationships that she needs to change. But I believe both pairings do have the potential to complement a character arc of Shallan changing that view, facing the truth, and accepting who she is. Like I said, with Adolin/Shallan, if they somehow managed to open up it would help both of them. With Kaladin, on the other hand, there’s already been more honesty and he also doesn’t have Shallan’s tendencies to hide from pain. It could go either way, I think. So many questions, indeed!
About Adolin…I feel like in some ways Kaladin is treating Adolin better than Shallan is at this point. Unlike Shallan, Kaladin doesn’t have any ulterior motives in his friendship with Adolin. Kaladin only likes him because, in spite of his prejudice, he was genuinely won over by Adolin’s goodness. He’s not trying to get anything out of Adolin or prove anything to him. Shallan…I want to say that she uses people, but she doesn’t, not really…yet she doesn’t care very much for others, either. (Even with her brothers, much of her efforts to save them were motivated by a sense of guilt and personal responsibility, not genuine concern for them.) With Adolin, she’s not thinking as much about him as about what the marriage could do for her. That would need to change if she wants to have a good relationship with him.
@37 Alisonwonderland: My sister and I were actually shipping Wax/Steris from the get-go. :) But admittedly, we didn’t have particularly strong reasons to feel that way in the beginning. We felt very vindicated when Steris turned out to be as interesting and delightful a character as we’d hoped she would be!
I’ve never really gotten Jasnah/Kaladin. I can see theoretically how, given their personalities and the way their minds work, they might be a good match…but I just have trouble imagining them having any chemistry or even a decent conversation. I don’t think I have any good reasons to doubt that they could, I just have trouble seeing it.
But yes, these shipping discussions would be very amusing to reread in another ten years or so…
@40 Lord_Monch: I’m hoping that Sanderson will resolve the triangle in a book or two and marry the characters off, and then we can see how their relationship develops after marriage without all the tension of who they’re going to to choose. If they manage to survive to book 6, maybe we’d even get to see their kids! I really liked how he resolved a romance in the original Mistborn trilogy at the end of book 2, then continued to develop the relationship post-marriage in book 3. It looks like he’s planning to do that in Era 1.5, too, which makes me happy. Sanderson just has so much SPACE in the Stormlight Archive. He’s got a great opportunity to develop two characters and their relationship very deeply and show how it shifts and changes over a wide swath of time. I hope he takes advantage of that opportunity!
@41 EvilMonkey: That is a very good analysis of how Sanderson is setting this up. I’m really glad that he spent ~2,000 pages developing these characters before springing a love triangle on us. At this point, they’re all just too strong as characters to get overtaken by their roles in a romance.
I’d be very surprised if Shallan chose Adolin but wound up having an affair with Kaladin…Kaladin is a very loyal person, even aside from the Radiant ideals he tries to live up to; I have trouble seeing him betray Adolin so terribly. It also feels a bit out of character for what Brandon Sanderson likes to write.
Anyways, I also liked your analysis of Kaladin and Adolin’s friendship. TBH I find myself agreeing in essence with pretty much everybody who doesn’t want to take a side, even though I’m firmly on the Kaladin/Shallan ship. I love Shallan, and Kaladin, and Adolin, and all their interrelationships and friendships with each other, much more than any particular pairing. What I really want is for Brandon Sanderson to give them the best story possible, taking advantage of all their delightful complexity, that will challenge and grow them and finish with a gloriously satisfying ending – whether it’s happy or sad or to my preferences or not. The times I spend arguing with my sister about shipping usually just end in, “Oh argh I can’t wait for Oathbringer, because it’s going to be awesome whatever happens!”
@36: So Adolin is nothing more than an empty shell… by your comment, no woman in the world would ever choose him as he is nothing more than a pretty container. This kind of comments saddens me because it implies there is no future for him in the matter of relationship because he fails at being as intelligent as Kaladin.
@38: Ah the Hunger Games, one of the rare instance where the girl ends up choosing the nice guy, though he had to break down completely for it to happen. May still happen in SA. For the rest I agree, the love triangle is not really played out until the third book.
@41: I have come to believe the choice is more evident than we think… As far as tropes go, Kaladin is the obvious choice as he has everything going on for him: underdog, self-made man, intense, mysterious and highly intelligent. The only things Adolin has going on for him are handsome, money and prestige. Kaladin has the substance while Adolin is superficial. Modern literature has taken great heaps into highlighting how characters such as Adolin never get a happy ending, moreover they don’t deserve it. As 36 put it, they are… empty.
I thus disagree both characters are equal: they aren’t. Kaladin has everything which matters on his side while Adolin has nothing but material means.
The Shallan/Kaladin ship truly is the obvious one. If it had been the reverse, had Shallan been engaged to Kaladin, but had had an “adventure” with nice Adolin down in the chasm, would people genuinely start rooting for the second ship as opposed to the first one?
Nice analysis of the bromance. One of my favored speculative future would be for Kaladin to return the favor to Adolin by standing up for him when no one else would/will/can because it would be the right thing to do.
@42: Shallan issues with relationships have to do with her tendency to utilise people to gain personal advantage and her refusal to see them as human beings. In other words, Shallan is horribly self-centered and selfish, but she disguises it into open care for her family members. It is OK to use up every single individual she meets as she only does it to secure a future for her brothers. She has no care for the consequences she may be drawing into those she uses: she has no care if she shall break Adolin’s heart. She only wants him for his money and his protection, as long as he stays out of her activities. She is a gold digger who believes she has indeed won the butter and the money to buy the butter as Adolin turned out being a nice guy she thinks she may not have too much trouble putting up with him on a day to day basis.
Adolin’s issues are tied to his complete inability to develop meaningful relationships. A recent WoB has confirmed this particular aspect of his personality was important for his character, so it will play a role into future books. He just can’t connect with people, be it for friendship or for love, each time he has an opportunity, he runs away. He systematically backs away from all challenges he does not have a strong enough assurance he may win: he deflects in depth conversation with Shallan, not wanting to dig in for fear of appearing too dumb. He only tries with Kaladin because Kaladin is so low ranked he does not trigger his natural fight or flight response: he does not fear falling as he has already established Kaladin was worst of than him in the matters of relationship.
I personally think the only person who will get hurt in this relationship is Adolin. He is the one who puts value onto relationship, moreover because he can’t have them. Shallan would just be happy to keep on shifting personas as long as she gets what she wants in the end. Love, as far as we know, has never been on the list.
In the end, Adolin would have been better off marrying any one of the girls he previously courted: a loveless marriage seems the best option for him. At least, he’d knew what he is getting into. A convenient union where both parties get something for themselves: money, prestige and rank for the woman; someone to read/make glyphs for him and an heir for Adolin. Currently, I think it would be preferable to continuing digging into lying and deceiving Shallan ready to make him think she actually likes him just to get her hands on his “collateral advantages”.
It saddens me because I really wanted Adolin to find a girl who would actually love him, truly love him, for who he is. Too much water as to run under the bridge for it to be Shallan, so I am starting to be partial about them. They are cute, but they are a lie. Even when Shallan tells her plans to Adolin, she has an end game: convince him to bring her to the Plains. Adolin genuinely confide in her something personal, but she only seek to use his momentarily openness to further her goals. So sad.
And yes, I do agree Kaladin is treating Adolin better than Shallan. He may in fact be the only character, in this story, who isn’t befriending Adolin simply in order to utilise him. It saddens me to think every single individual we have met only cares for Adolin with respect to what he can provide for them. Heck, even Dalinar treats Adolin as nothing more than a mere tool to serve his higher purposes.
Personally, I hope Jasnah is asexual. It would be nice representation for that community. Not everything has to revolve around romantic relationships. Barring that, it would be a great twist to have a Shallan/Jasnah pairing!
@43 Gepeto: See, your description of how Shallan is selfish is exactly why I think a relationship with Adolin could hurt her. I think we may be using different definitions of the word “hurt” here. When I say the relationship might hurt her, I mean it might be unhealthy and detrimental to her character, keeping her in harmful patterns. Maybe you were meaning “hurt” as in causing emotional pain? At any rate, I think the relationship might hurt her because so far it’s been part of that pattern of treating others selfishly, and I don’t want Shallan to keep reinforcing it and to get stuck in it. I want her to be a better person than that; I like her and want to see her grow. However, I think the relationship could also help her move away from those selfish tendencies if she did fall in love with Adolin and come to genuinely care for him.
About which pairing is more likely: I hesitate to consider Kaladin the obvious choice just because romance tropes align with him – this is Brandon Sanderson the trope-subverter-extraordinaire that we’re dealing with, after all. :) Sanderson has put some effort into showing that Adolin isn’t superficial, but is a good, loyal, steady man whose goodness is genuine and valuable, not fake or weak. If he’s trying to use the boring nice guy trope, he’s doing a bad job given how interesting Adolin is. Sanderson has also written a number of romantic leads who are more nice than mysterious or intense – Raoden, Elend, maybe Susebron, and if you’ve read any of his unpublished works (White Sand, Aether of Night, Mythwalker), their male leads are so nice that they stretch my suspension of disbelief a bit. I don’t think I’m aware of any nice guys in the quite extensive Sanderson canon who get slammed with an unhappy ending and treated as if they don’t deserve a good one. So given who’s writing him, I don’t think that Adolin has nothing of substance going for him, and I don’t think that Shallan/Kaladin is definitively the obvious choice even if it fits more with romantic tropes.
As far as Shallan being Selfish:
I think people are being terribly unfair in their analysis of her character. She has been raised in an environment where love has never truly been a consideration. It was never in the calculus to factor love in. She obviously loves her brothers though. She is willing to take on all the emotional trauma resulting from her broken family to keep them alive and as well as possible. The acts she performs for love, giving away prized possessions, killing a father to save her family, betraying a mentor and the one of the most powerful women in the world, willing to marry a man she has never met to secure their future. It’s always been family first for her. Then consider that she has been sheltered her entire life, has never left her estates until a year and a half ago book time. When she does leave she is alone and nearly penniless. Who is going to take care of her if not her? Plus she’s still so young. She is at an age where she doesn’t even know who she is yet. And although she’s found a purpose it’s one that is so much bigger than what she’s been groomed for that it’s gonna take awhile longer before she can reconcile that with all her subsequent parts. Basically she’s a good girl with some baggage that needs to be dealt with. Someone who is coming to the realization that she is indeed powerful and also that she is allowed to actually love someone outside of her family. It seems like people expect her to be a fairy tale princess complete with the love-at-first-sight complex instead of a person shaped by her past, that to be anything other than that means she is a selfish and manipulative character who will break the heart, betray or kill anyone she has any type of relationship with. She may become that type of person, I cannot quite rule out the possibility. All I saying is that we should delay judgement for a bit. The changes she made from WOK to WOR are encouraging; she’s certainly capable of personal growth. I expect that growth to continue.
@43: By hurt I meant emotionally hurt and I do think the one being in danger of being hurt in such way is Adolin, not Shallan. In the long run, remaining this lying unable to assume herself individual may be harmful to Shallan, but it pales in comparison to being the one being lied to. Don’t get me wrong, I do want Shallan to stop treating people in such a selfish manner, but I fear it will come at the expense of Adolin. I hate to think he would be the collateral damage those Radiants need to create to discover themselves. It brilliantly highlights how the actions on one individual, no matter how understandable, turns out being harmful to those who perhaps never deserved it.
I also hate considering Kaladin as the right choice because tropes demand it, but it remains true. In my earlier questioning, I wondered what readers would be saying if Shallan had been engaged to Kaladin from the start, but failed into the chasm with Adolin. Who would the shippers think is the most suitable? As it currently stands, it is undeniable Kaladin is the preferred choice. Why is it the case?
Adolin is widely interesting, but he still comes across as too clean, too perfect to truly be considered as a worthy romantic companion. He isn’t superficial, but to see him as more demands more in-depth analysis. In other words, he isn’t as obvious as he appears.
I am starting to doubt he will get a happy ending. He is too close to those Radiants, he stands too close to the tempest: he will be swap by it.
@44: Shallan may have all of the best reasons to behave as she does, it does not change the fact she is wrong. Yes, she has been mistreated, yes she has grown into a loveless environment, but it does not give her a free pass to utilize and manipulates other human beings to achieve her ends. If anything, she should be even more sensitive to those aspects, but just as all Radiants have been so far, she is extremely focused on herself. She has yet to acknowledge Adolin is a human being who does not deserve to be used in such way: he isn’t a golden mine waiting to be plucked dry. He is a young man who may not have been beaten nor mistreated, but has repetitively failed at succeeding at a romantic relationship.
My point is her behavior may be understandable, it may be justifiable, but just as Kaladin’s earlier behavior towards Amaram and the untimely boon, it still isn’t right.
Shallan is wrong to treat Adolin as a mere mean to safeguard her family. She is wrong to not even consider he may have feelings, to use him as her play thing and no amount of mistreatment in her past justified such manipulative behavior. Would you accept if an individual beat his own children on the account he was beaten as well as a child? Sadly it does happen, but while past experiences may provide an explanation as to why, they aren’t excuses.
Shallan does need to grow and everything, but I hate thinking it will come at the expense of Adolin who didn’t ask for it. She should have broken up the union after she revealed herself as a Radiant: it is clear her purposes with him aren’t pure.
This being said, I am merely stating observations I have made. I want Adolin/Shallan to work out, but the fact remains the relationship hardly is functional as it stands.
@43, Gepeto:
Maybe I am misunderstanding you; didn’t Kaladin already stand up for Adolin when no one else could/would because it was the right thing to do? The 4v1 shardbearer duel! Or do you mean the other way round? Adolin also stood up for Kaladin (jail incident), but we can’r really say in that case that no one else could/would.
Fair point.
Perhaps I meant in a similar way as Adolin sitting up in prison for him. Joining the 4 on 1 duel was an early reenactment of the 3rd ideal: “I will protect those I hate as long as it is right”. If Kaladin were to mentally support Adolin by simply being his friend, he wouldn’t be acting in order to maintain his oath, he would simply be… a friend. That would be nice.
A Shallan/ Kaladin pairing looks like more of a disaster than Shallan/Adolin. Their natures are too diametrically opposed for a long term relationship to remain viable. Their would be passion and sparks but they would never find harmony. I think Adolin would have to die for their relationship to last, and even that isn’t a garantee.
Now let’s be clear. To be honest, she doesn’t need Adolin to accomplish any of her goals now. On the Shattered Plains she isn’t drawing funds from the Kholin treasury; she’s drawing a paycheck from Sebraril. And she doesn’t need him for prestige or position. She’s a Radient; she effectively outranks him. The Ghostbloods have taken her family’s needs off her hands in exchange for her services (as well as an effective threat). Shallan is at least smart enough to figure that out. She continues to be with him because she likes him and that like has the potential for love.
Remember also that it wasn’t Shallan’s idea to propose the union, it was Jasnah’s. So she wasn’t head hunting for a potential goldmine. She’d long believed that she would have no say in her eventual union. By the end of WOR she actually has that freedom. She can actually choose her partner and has a good chance of being the lead member of the match. Gold diggers would be chasing her now. If she felt nothing for Adolin she’d have dropped him like a hot rock. On to the next one you know?
She does have baggage, trust issues, protection issues, and a buttload of secrets. Of her two potential mates it’s Adolin who has the best shot of making things last long term with her, because his personality is a better match. And I disagree that Kaladin makes that much better a match. The stong-yet-sensitive warrior, the player who falls for the new exotic girl at first sight? Rom-coms have made a mint off of Adolin type characters and Mr. Perfect, Prince Charming gets the girl more often than not. About the same percentage as the brooding bad boy with the heart of gold. Kaladin was the underdog but with his Radienthood the dynamics have changed; Adolin is now the underdog, the unpowered warrior walking with Giants. Ad may have started with all the advantages but those advantages have eroded rapidly. Does that make it more or less likely that he keeps the girl? There is no telling; Sanderson has twisted the triangle as if caught in a tornado and it’s only book 2.
I humbly submit my Wall o Text.
They will come. You cannot stop their oaths. Look for those who survive when they should not. That pattern will be your clue.
They will come. You cannot. Stop their oaths. Look for those who survive. When they should not, that pattern will be your clue.
Any other possible punctuations I missed?
@50: Very good wall of text. I always think it interesting to shake slightly the bee-hive in terms of character development and see what comes out of it.
Shallan does not need Adolin anymore to accomplish her goals, this is true, but had she fully realize this by the end of WoR? In other words, when she claims she refuse to let things go awkward was she doing it out of true desire to continue relationship or did she still have in mind the fact she needs him? If we re-read the passage closely, this scene happens right before her meeting with Mraize, the one where he states he would take care of her family in exchange of her services. Therefore, when Shallan forces her kisses on Adolin it is highly likely she was still doing it to secure protection for her family.
When she realizes he truly does not need him anymore, will she put as much effort into making sure he remain enthralled with her? Not that I think she needs to do much: he is crushing on her, but she may decide it is not worth the effort anymore.
I agree it wasn’t Shallan’s idea, initially, but she bought into it. I agree she is bond to get suitors now she is such a desirable match, but this hasn’t happen yet. It is too early to state she would still choose Adolin once she starts receiving more attention. Book 3 is bond to be interesting in this matter.
I also agree Adolin appears as the better match, in the long run, but is Shallan the best match for him? He deserves honestly and he deserves to be considered for characteristics other than his money. Can Shallan be this person? Is she capable to stop being so self-absorbed in order to openly starts caring for someone else? I am not convinced anymore. Perhaps she truly is better with someone like Kaladin who is able to tell her lies apart than someone like Adolin who can’t and who would just end up being manipulated.
Which trope is Adolin effectively? The strong yet sensitive warrior? Prince charming? Player? Well I certainly disagree he is a player: he is perceived as one, but the book has highlight the fact he truly isn’t. He comes across as one due to his inability to develop relationships, not out of a lack of desire to do so. A player would simply be happy to court all possible girls, refusing to settle down. This is not Adolin: he wants to settle down, but he is too afraid of failure to actually make it work.
Does Mr Perfect ever truly get the girl? On the TVTropes.com, there is one called Rich Boy, Poor Boy which they say should basically be renamed as Poor Boy takes it all as the rich kid never, ever gets the girl. Either he turns out being a jerk or he is dumb or boring. The analogy between Adolin/Kaladin is there: Adolin is the rich, but dumb/boring boy while Kaladin is the poor but intelligent/intense one.
Does Prince Charming ever get the girl? Perhaps if we are looking at a princess movie, but in other shows? It strikes to me as Adolin does not stand much chance in front of “oh so much more interesting, intense, intelligent, exciting” Kaladin. What he has is kindness, but is it what young Shallan truly looks for in a man? Kindness over adventure and excitement? Her entire arc was about her getting more bold, more adventurous… and Adolin certainly does not convey a sense of adventure. He gets way too anxious when thrown out of his comfort zone which is quite unlike both Shallan and Kaladin. Those two are more adaptable than Adolin.
Is Kaladin truly done being the under-dog? I am not so sure… I certainly do not think his hardships are anywhere near over and even if I wish to see him deal with different kind of problems than being looked down onto, it is safe to assume he will have a hard time making others accept his new status. Heck, he is likely to spend the next trying to accept it himself.
For the rest, I once said Adolin started up as a Prince Charming, but the horse died, he lost his will to fight, his powerful Blade is not what it seemed and his armor is now tattered. He will lose much over the death of Sadeas. Will it be enough to turn him into an under-dog? Can someone so high born, so empowered make such a complete flip and turn into a complete under-dog character nobody looks twice at? Is it possible? Quite frankly, I have no idea, but if Brandon pulls this off, it may be one of the greatest character arc ever.
Was does it bode for the future of our lovebirds? Nobody can tell. I am simply musing over the fact the Adolin/Shallan ship, despite being an overload of cuteness, hides many dysfunctional elements, the major one appearing to be Shallan’s inability to be herself, but I also think we should not underestimate Adolin’s chronic issues with relationships. He can’t make them work, be it friendship or romance. It could be he will be the downfall of this union and not her and it may very well be him who’ll have to work it up.
@44 Austin: It would be cool if Jasnah is asexual, though personally I think it would be more interesting if she wasn’t and willfully chose to remain single in order to focus on some other goal. It bugs me a bit when authors explain deliberate singleness just by sexual orientation or perhaps by trauma in a character’s past. Those are certainly valid reasons somebody might avoid sexual or romantic relationships, and they can make for very interesting characters – but sometimes I feel like people forget that someone can choose to remain single even if they are interested in romance. Like you said, not everything has to revolve around romantic relationships, even if one isn’t asexual.
@46 EvilMonkey: To clarify, I don’t completely agree with Gepeto’s analysis of Shallan’s selfishness. I think she is self-absorbed sometimes, and that it would be good for her to move away from that, but I think we’ve also seen her be sympathetic to many people and quite sacrificial with her brothers. I agree that she’s also being held back by her past – in her interactions with Adolin, even, she has impulses to give in and let herself love him, but she resists in fear of being hurt or misled again (reminding herself of Kabsal). I think the bigger issue is her not being honest with Adolin. At this point, if Shallan chooses to continue the relationship, it can’t primarily be for selfish reasons. Regardless of whether she had realized it when she last talks with Adolin, she will see soon that he has little material benefit to offer her now beyond a Kholin alliance. So my main concern going forward is how she isn’t her true self around Adolin and isn’t willing to be vulnerable, how she hides from darker things and just pretends to be a happy, clever young woman. Her putting on a persona keeps both of them from actually being able to form the deep and honest relationships they need to progress as people and as characters.
In truth, this is a good part of why I’m interested in seeing Shallan and Kaladin together. If I can extrapolate from what’s happened so far, they’d force each other to face many of their issues – which wouldn’t necessarily make for a good and lasting relationship, but would be interesting in terms of character development and conflict (at least to me!). Just in the chasm scenes, Kaladin sees through many of the games Shallan is playing, and Shallan calls him on his prejudice and the inconsistencies in his worldview. They’re compelled to look more closely at themselves, and at least in Kaladin’s case, to change. Adolin and Shallan’s relationship has (unfortunately) not yielded those sorts of character moments so far, perhaps because they’re willing to hide behind their personas and let the other do the same. But if, somehow, both of them were able to trust each other and be honest and vulnerable – if Shallan was willing to be her true self with Adolin, and Adolin was able to commit to her without being paralyzed by a fear of failure – then the relationship really would be powerful for them as characters, I think.
@47 Gepeto: I’m not sure I see how Adolin would be harmed if Shallan stopped treating others selfishly and was honest with him. Wouldn’t that be mutually beneficial? If she realizes her mixed motives for pursuing him, decides to continue the relationship out of a genuine liking for him, and lets him into her life, wouldn’t that be a good thing? How would he be a casualty of her growth…?
BTW, maybe I didn’t understand you right, but the scene with Shallan and Adolin talking happens after she talks with Mraize. She’s still concerned, however, about if Mraize is going to follow through on his promises and keep her family safe.
I don’t agree with the negative reactions towards Shallan given her history. She would have been a truly broken soul if she were unable to develop outer personas appropriate to the situation. As someone who was forced to kill her mother at a young age in self defense, it is hardly surprising that she is not more forthcoming emotionally. As it is, her behavior towards Adolin is not untypical of the start of a relationship, i.e., not confiding possibly harmful family secrets. At this point, Adolin’s attraction is physical and social – although the latter has come to be less significant given her finding of Urithiru and Radiant status. Her situation can change, however, once her involvement with the Ghostbloods becomes known. I can just picture Jasnah’s reaction once she arrives in Urithiru and learns of it. Then, too, the matter of Adolin’s killing of Sadeas will become known and have some untoward consequences. Adolin will either grow as a result or face the unraveling of his positive personality. In either case, he is not, in my eyes, the least intellectually curious of the major characters. That ‘honor’ belongs to Dalinar who had professed total lack of interest in things like his brother’s strategic aims during his ‘Blackthorn’ days (as long as it provided him with opportunities for personal combat and battle leadership. Yet, Dalinar is the leader of the Radiants and, allegedly, Sanderson’s favorite character in the series.
On the subject of Jasnah, I tend to agree with sheenasia. I too would prefer if her choice to remain single was deliberate and genuine as opposed to a reaction to a past trauma or to her being either asexual or homosexual. Not all people are interested in developing romantic relationships and not all of those make this choice in order to hide something deeper. There are people who genuinely prefer to dedicate themselves to their work and feel they don’t have the time for a romantic partner. In RL, such individual would possibly have occasional flings, but in Roshar, such things seem prohibited.
I also doubt Brandon has planned any romantic arc for Jasnah: his answers to such question seem to indicate so, but it is going to be long ride until the end. He may change his mind, but I don’t think it currently figures on his drawing board.
@53: I think Shallan suffers from the same flaws as Kaladin and Dalinar seem to suffer: they are all terribly self-absorbed which is a form of selfishness. This being said, Shallan is not always selfish, but when it comes to her relationship with Adolin, she has been selfish. She has thought of herself and only herself and has failed to acknowledge marriage is a dance which requires two partners. She has yet to voice one genuine thought of care or concern for him which saddens me. It seems completely unthinkable the one girl Adolin would actually love enough to try to move pass his initial blockage does not return his affection or is only in it for herself.
When I say she is selfish, I mean she has the tendency to put herself first and before all. Yes, she is capable of being helpful, compassionate and sympathetic towards other’s people plights, as long as they don’t get in the way of her objective. She certainly isn’t any of those things when it comes to Adolin… just as Kaladin initially was. Is it because he does not appear as being someone in need? Is it Radiants only respond positively to those being needy while being too narrow-minded to see perfection is only an illusion? I think it strange all of our main Radiants seem to exhibit a similar flaw.
I do agree with you when you state both Shallan and Adolin are showing off only one facet of their respective personality, albeit for different reasons and neither is capable to tell each other’s lies. It is true Kaladin forces her to contemplate her behavior though I am not convinced it requires a romantic ship to blossom. This being said, I do agree the story could go there, if the author wants it to.
If Shallan and Adolin were to trust each other, would they both like what they will find? This is the great question… Adolin is crushing on Shallan, but he does not know her: he crushed on an image of her personality, on what she has agreed to share with him. It isn’t a complete lie, but it isn’t the truth either.
For the rest, I meant Shallan would hurt Adolin is she continues with the relationship while openly lying to him. There is nothing worst, IMHO, then giving your trust to someone who does not value it and breaks it at every occasion. This is what I meant when I said she would hurt him and yes I do think being the one being lied to is worst than being the liar.
Ah it may be I have gotten the chronology wrong: I have lent my book to a colleague. I thought it happened in a different order. The discussion remains though, had Shallan truly acknowledge she did not need Adolin anymore at this point in time?
@54:While I do agree with you in saying Shallan’s behavior is not untypical of young relationship, the fact remains she is hiding a large pan of her personality. She is playing a role whenever she is with Adolin, just as she is impersonating Veil with the Ghostbloods. This is what bothers me… not the fact she hasn’t spilled her beans yet, the fact she isn’t herself with him. She is….. very, extremely fake. She uses her feminine vile to keep him enthralled, she is manipulating him. It wouldn’t work with someone like Kaladin.
As for Adolin, I have come to believe he may very well be a deconstruction of the Prince Charming trope. He is a character strongly defined on how other perceives him. He always tries to be exactly what people expect and she shies away from challenges which may jeopardize this position. On his own account, Adolin thinks himself intellectually dumb. He does not even try. He is more curious than Dalinar though as he does adsorb the knowledge Shallan pours in him, probably because there are no expectations ties to it, he has no pressure to perform, so he does it spontaneously, but going further would demand him encountering the risk of failure.
Was young Dalinar dumber than young Adolin? This is a hard one. I would say Dalinar has always been and still is horribly narrow-minded, a trait Adolin does not seem to have. Older Dalinar can also read glyphs fluently just as young Renarin, Gavilar and probably Elhokar which makes Navani right in calling her nephew out for refusing to learn. My thoughts now geared towards thinking Adolin has strong perfectionist tendencies and it makes him back away from endeavors he may not automatically succeed at. It is fine to fail at reading a glyph, as long as he can back himself by stating he never bothered to learn, but if he did bothered and still fail, then the fault is on him. This is, I believe, what Adolin is deeply afraid of: failing, not meeting expectation. So how dumb he is truly? Or more importantly how smart would he be if he actually tried?
I also am not sure Dalinar is Brandon’s favorite character: I would think it is Kaladin.
I really like Shallan and Adolin, but I am scared for Adolin. My dad pointed out that His actions at the end will probably put him in the path of Nalan and his Skybreakers. Besides, Sanderson is not above killing really cool and important characters.
There are very few relationships that start off with both parties being 100% honest with each other. Everyone has skeletons in their closets; Shallan just happens to have a graveyard. She obviously likes Adolin, which is a good start in an arranged marriage proposal. And she has shown concern, standing up for Adolin when Kaladin tried to make him feel dumb on the scouting trip out on the Plains. I’m not disputing the fact that the Adolin/ Shallan pairing needs work to make it work, that if they continue to act in the patterns they’ve become accustomed to then someone is gonna get their heart broken. All I’m saying is that by book’s end they’ve gone on like what, 4 or 5 dates, interrupted by a war, an imprisonment, a presumed death and resurrection and, oh yeah, the opening round of the latest Desolation. They aren’t exactly at the moving in together phase of their relationship, she’s barely staying over, she’s scared to buy a toothbrush to leave over at the apartment, Adolin hasn’t had a key made for her. We don’t know if they can fix their issues, that this won’t all end in heartbreak and tragedy. But the seeds of a workable, even a fruitful relationship are there. Let it play out before we declare Shallan is a callous, selfish liar who is only out to play the prince for a fool. She’s hardly the femme fatale type, just a normal, slightly geeky girl with a fucked up past and a Shardblade. In fact, if Danlan was able to break through she had a much better chance of breaking Adolin’s heart; she has an agenda that required being close to Dalinar and she would have surely betrayed the Kholins. Any betrayal Shallan participates in (if it happens) will be strictly of a personal nature. She may well break Adolin, but she wouldn’t break all he stands for or everything he loves.
Gepeto, do you hate Shallan? Not trying to troll, but you say you identify strongly with Adolin. Do you see in Shallan a personality that either isn’t your type or someone that could be your kryptonite? Forgive me if this isn’t the case or if I offend, it certainly isn’t my intention. I just ask because I know that many readers hated her by the end of WOK only to change their opinions of her, some drastically, after WOR. She is now a favorite character for many but of all the community you seem to go harder on the girl than almost everyone. No condemnation from me, just genuinely curious. As for me, I found her boring during much of the first book, devious but mostly harmless. The more I read of her though, the more I like her. She’s still devious but she is also quite effective. And although of all the “good guys” we have seen so far she’s the one most likely to take moral shortcuts I believe that her heart is in the right place. And she’s funny. I’m a sucker for funny. It’s probably why I love Lyft so much.
Gepeto @55:
I really don’t understand the insistence on Shallan’s “selfishness”. She was first trying to save her family and then, when she found out about the Voidbringers et al. from Jasnah, the world as well. She _did_ save the Alethi army (including Kholins) on the Plains because of her unflagging determination to continue Jasnah’s research and fulfilling her teacher’s goals. She has already been more than worth it to Kholin family, so calling her a “golddigger” at this point seems singularly unjust, IMHO.
And where did this idea come from that Adolin was somehow fooled about the fact that his initial and possibly main attraction to her was his position and resources?! It was an _arranged_ causal to which she agreed sight unseen, for Pete’s sake! She didn’t pretend to accidentially bump into him and immediately fall head over heels in love with him for the sake of his person and personality alone. He is a noble, he knows that material/status considerations are always a part of the equation for the people of his class.
And their courtship hadn’t been going for long enough that Shallan not revealing her deepest and darkest secrets to him (which, in her case, are deep and dark indeed) would be some perfidy on her part. Nor is the unconventional, creative, funny young woman that Shallan presents herself as to the world, a lie per se. It is certainly a facet of her personality. Not all of it, sure, yet still probably more genuine than what other young noblewomen show. Obviously, if this relationship is to evolve successfully, Shallan would need to let Adolin in at some point (and vice versa). She is not there yet, but it doesn’t mean that she doesn’t and won’t care.
@57: Do I hate Shallan? No absolutely not. I have in fact written, in the past, long and detailed positive analysis on Shallan in an attempt to defend her against those who would bad-mouth her character. If you read carefully my first post, I felt like shaking the bee hive and see what would come out of it.
I have been a harden defender of the Shallan/Adolin ship because I found them adorable, because I really wanted Adolin to find someone who would love him and I didn’t enjoy the Kaladin/Shallan interactions. I figured I want the Shallan/Adolin ship to sail so much I perhaps am guilty of missing the right clues, hence the idea was to shake up things slightly and see if the argumentation still holds.
One of the main argument of the Kaladin/Shallan ship pertains to the fact they have been able to be honest with each other as opposed to the Adolin/Shallan one. And while yes, there are several very good reasons which explains why Shallan would certainly not spill her secrets to Adolin, there are several good reasons for her to not to do it with Kaladin either. In other words, Shallan did not have to share the depth of her tragedy to Kaladin, she merely had to share enough to get them to work together: further confession weren’t required and yet they happened. There are also several good reasons to explain it, heck I have listed those often enough, but the fact remains it happened.
The only person who has seen Shallan as she truly is and not a chosen subset of her personality is Kaladin and he loved it.
Shallan perhaps isn’t the femme fatale type, but she is making head turns everywhere she goes indicating us, the readers, she has something going on for her in this regards. You speak of Danlan and her agenda, but Shallan has an agenda as well. It may be more personal, it may not be linked to undermine the Kholin family, but it does imply marrying a rich heir to protect her family. Yes, it wasn’t her idea, but once she safely moved into Sebrarial’s house, she has absolutely no reason to keep on pursuing Adolin if not for her agenda. Did she do good? Yes, immensely. She saved life, but to do so she had to manipulate Adolin by using carefully choosing truth to get him to support her idea. It is meek, it isn’t such a huge thing, but does it truly form strong basis for a romantic relationship?
Shallan didn’t have to jump into deep confession, but she could have spoken a few deeper truths. She could have mentioned her family’s situation was dire and she hoped to help them without mentioning her own implication. She could have been more forthcoming. Heck, I have just come to realize Adolin knows absolutely nothing of Shallan: her favorite color, her favorite food, nothing personal. The reverse perhaps is true as well.
They have spoken, but they haven’t spoken truly. How can we call it a strong basis for a future relationship when neither has spoken their heart yet? When neither actually know in any level of depth the person they are interfacing with?
@58: Adolin is being fooled because he was foolish enough to fall in love with a persona guilty of being only one facet of Shallan’s personality. Shallan is even more foolish to not have noticed his infatuation and is guilty of adding more to it.
For the rest, as long as Shallan’s main motivation to make the casual work is tied to the Kholin’s fortune, power, rank and protection, then yes she essentially is a gold digger. Those come in various format and she may not be the worst type, but as long as her intentions are be tied to things she could gain, she remains such. In an equal and sane relationship, both members aren’t in it for the money, but for each other. So far, I have yet to see Shallan want Adolin for him, just himself.
Perhaps it will happen, perhaps it won’t but it hasn’t happen, yet.
This being said, people marry for material reasons all the time: the problem is Adolin is completely unaware of it. Maybe he is just a dumb fool for not seeing it, but it is there.
Gepeto @59:
Of course Adolin is aware that material considerations were/are part of the deal! Their courtship has been arranged from the beginning, he knows that quite well. He can reject her, sure, but he knows that Shallan was looking for an advantagious marriage. That’s how these things are usually done among their class, after all. He just has the luxury of picking and choosing for emotional reasons too, which he is excercising. And there are considerations of gain for Kholins as well – they need a scribe/spymaster, etc. who would be part of the family and whom they could trust, the available Kholin women being either not up to the task (Navani, Elhokar’s wife) or currently otherwise occupied (Jasnah). And they also knew that Jasnah saw something potentially very valuable in Shallan, to suggest a betrothal with her in the first place. IIRC, they are also aware that Davars are impoverished and beleaguered by creditors – Jasnah certainly did, and IIRC she didn’t hide this fact when she made her suggestion. So, yea, everything was and is on up-and-up there.
And courtship has been going for a very short time, with Adolin also not completely opening to Shallan yet. What he presents to her also isn’t all of him. Shallan fessing up to Jasnah and Kaladin to the extent that she had was mostly prompted by circumstances – nothing but complete sincerity could have gotten her Jasnah’s cooperation after she was caught in her theft, and with Kaladin there was imminent fear of death. I imagine that the telling difference with Adolin is going to be that Shallan will have to decide to confide in him without some outside circumstances compelling her to do so. Pattern enlisting Adolin’s help in making Shallan confront _the_ painful truth about her past makes me hopeful in this area, as Pattern is aware of some things about her, that she hasn’t quite gotten the handle on herself yet.
And now for something completely different – Amaram. Unlike most here, I am not certain yet that he is a complete slime. It is entirely possible that he is more in Taravangian’s situation, trying to save Roschar, based on whatever Gavilar confided in him. That he sees himself as a “hard man making hard choices” for the good of all. And unlike Taravangian, his efforts actually resulted in some good (!) so far, seeing that his research turned out to be instrumental in providing the last clues as to the position of the Oathgate to Urithiru to Shallan. He is highly intelligent and knowledgeable and could potentially have much to offer. Amaram certainly seems to think that he is continuing Gavilar’s work – whatever _that_ was. Much would depend (for me) on whether he tried to somehow reward/support the families of the men who saved him from Helaran and whose murders he ordered to gain the Shards. And Kaladin’s parents, of course. I somehow suspect that they are no longer at Heartsone and that Amaram has something to do with it.
Now, of course, here is the big question – why, oh why did Gavilar confide in Taravangian and Amaram, but not in Dalinar and Jasnah? And why are the former 2 worthies, who have seen such worth in Gavilar’s visions, ignoring Dalinar’s? Particularly Taravangian, who could really use some additional data for his projections? Or hasn’t he he yet learned about Dalinar’s visions before ordering his death for the second time?
I don’t want to write a wall of text so I will make it very short. Kaladin and Shallan exchanging confidences while they were at the chasm was because those were intense moments. It was a life and death situation for them. For lack of a better word, I see that exchange as confession because they might die in any moment and they just have to get it out.
As for the “attraction” they have, well it was also because of the intensity of the moment. In “A Few Good Men”, Tom Cruise’s character explained it best to Demi Moore’s character why their feelings for each other will not work. That it was only a result of the intensity of their work with the case at hand. I cannot quote the exact words. But, I remember the gist. It was a powerful movie so though it is old, I remember very well.
Kaladin/Shallan shippers will of course disagree with me. *shrugs* But, I don’t really see any future in the Kaladin/Shallan ship.
Isilel@60
Nicely said and I agree. We can’t ignore Rosharian social conventions for marriage among the nobility. This is as much a permanent business transaction as it is an exploration of agreeableness, mutual attraction, and last on the list, love/friendship. Adolin and Shallan both have a lot to offer one another in both aptitude and achievement. They are intrigued by one another and mutually attracted. It’s a fine match and they would do well together. They might even learn to love and confide more deeply with one another, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t make a good, sustainable couple. They would be happy together.
I don’t see that happening if Shallan and Kal get together. Of course, Brandon can make anything happen since he’s the author, but I just don’t see it. Their personalities, neuroses and survival mechanisms are too complimentary and would lead to relational disaster. Besides, I enjoy Adolin and Shallan’s stories better than Kal’s. I like reading about Kal and I think he does very well considering what he’s been through, but he is not leading a sustainable existence and I don’t think he wants to. It would completely rob his sacrificial mindset of its nobility if he were to pursue a serious romance.
SPOILERS
My wife and I saw the play Chinglish a few years back in Chicago. At the end the American business man states he is falling in love with the Chinese business woman with whom he is having an affair. She is shocked and refuses when he asks her to run away with him. She calls him a dangerous man, shocked at his blatant disregard for and willingness to publicly flaunt social conventions. She terminates the affair and moves to openly support her husbands aspirational ventures and rise within the Communist Party. Precluding the affair, which I’m not supportive of in any context, we need to be a little more open minded about what makes for a good match and long-term happiness.
Re: Shallan being dishonest or selfish: I’m tempted to write a wall of text analyzing over again how Shallan has acted towards Adolin, but eh, I agree that there are seeds of a good relationship there so I’m not sure I’d actually be adding anything to the debate beyond more words. However, I did want to bring up the question of whether Shallan actually intends to ever be open with Adolin or let him see her full self. Of course we can’t expect her to have divulged all her dark secrets at this point, but does she want to develop the relationship to a point where she can? Does she want him to ever know about the darker things she deals with? Essentially, what’s her purpose in this relationship: to have a very close and honest friendship in her marriage, or just to have a spouse that she enjoys being around? There’s nothing necessarily wrong with the latter – as CireNaes points out, that could be considered a very successful marriage in Alethkar and be perfectly sustainable, so long as it fits with Adolin’s expectations for a match. (The issue is more if we think that’s the best she should hope for.) At any rate, if Shallan is not particularly interested in having a close relationship, and Adolin continues to be hesitant about committing himself and risking failure, then I doubt they’re going to confide in each other much and, consequently, the relationship won’t grow beyond a certain level.
@54 STBLST: It hadn’t occurred to me that Shallan’s social standing may change if her involvement in the Ghostbloods is revealed. Maybe her family will also come under suspicion once it becomes known that Lin Davar is dead.
@57 EvilMonkey: Always good to see someone else who finds Shallan funny! So many people criticize Sanderson’s sense of humor that I feel like a dork sometimes when I enjoy it. :)
@63 CireNaes: As I mentioned earlier – thanks for pointing out that we need to consider what is important in marriage to the actual characters and society we’re discussing! Though given that this is Sanderson, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to hope for love along with a successful business transaction. He certainly has a track record of writing arranged marriages where the partners wind up being genuinely in love. (The writer part of me is tempted to want Shallan to have a disastrous relationship just because I’m curious about how Sanderson would write it. Maybe that’s the real reason I continue to ship Shallan and Kaladin despite arguments to the contrary…)
While it’s not necessarily a bad thing to consider social conventions, it’s also important to realize that the social conventions our characters are used to are bound to change over the next few books: I doubt most, if not all, of the societies we’ve seen (either a lot of with the Alethi and Vorinism or the scattering of information about the other cultures across the world) will go through the impending world changing events. We already got a bit of that at the end with Adolin wondering about what will happen in the future now that Shallan has been revealed as a Radiant, but that’s only the beginning.
Besides that, personally I think both Kaladin and Adolin have a set of pros and cons attached to any potential relationship with Shallan, which is probably why I’m waiting for at least the third book. But if I’m being completely honest, I wouldn’t want Shallan to go in either relationship without a period of not being in one. Part of it is the looming specter of the causal, which I’m not a fan of, but most of it is I’d rather Shallan acknowledge she doesn’t need to be in a relationship and then see if she feels like pursuing Adolin. As it is, I feel like she’s a bit too attached to the relationship itself than Adolin. Not because of material benefits, but because she’s got so much else on her plate it’s just easier to stick with what she started and ignore any possible difficulties (at least as of Words of Radiance’s end).
How aware Adolin truly is? This is a fine question for a character known for his lack of self-awareness. Of course, he does know he is being engaged to a scion of a minor house, but he has no idea of the depth of the Davar’s debt/problems. Even Dalinar does not know as he is still waiting from answers to his inquiry about Shallan’s family estate state.
So yes, Adolin must have some level of awareness, but he does not realize how desperate Shallan is to marry him. This, he has no idea and neither does Dalinar. Even towards the end of WoR, he still considers the betrothal conditional to finding out the true state of her finances… Jasnah knew, but she didn’t tell her family, not everything, it seems. Perhaps she wanted them to warm up to the idea before exposing them the truth, in person, but she lacked the opportunity.
As for Shallan, she may have something to bring in to the family, but she isn’t the only intelligent young woman in Roshar nor is she the only individual capable of fulfilling the task of a scribe. Those roles could have been filled by pretty much any young woman Adolin courted. As far as they know, the only “special” thing Shallan has is the fact Jasnah approved of her and the fact Adolin seems to like her.
We could push the analysis farther down the road… When Shallan forces her kisses on Adolin, does she do it because she really wants to or does she do it in an attempt to keep him interested? She does think along those lines when she states she has to become irresistible in order to keep his eyes focus on her. So where the kisses genuine or were they part of her plot to attract him? Is she obeying to a natural attraction or is she using his feelings against him to ensnare him further with her?
Which is the truth? Kaladin asks Shallan about Adolin and she states he is a… nice surprise. She expected someone she would despise, but instead she found someone she thinks it wouldn’t be unpleasant to go back home to. Is she truly interested in him, really, really?
The true questioning I believe, is brought forward by sheesania… and it does echo my earlier one when I wondered what Shallan wanted. Sheesania asks if Shallan even has the intention to build this relationship on trust. As she even considered the fact she may need to open-up to Adolin if she wishes for a true equal to equal relationship? Does she even intend do, spontaneously and not because events would force her to? Does she?
It could still end up in a successful partnership, but it would be one where one member is emotionally more invested than the other. It would be one where one member would eventually realize his spouse does not return his affection. As long as he is fine with it, there is no problem, but is it what Adolin wants? I think Adolin wants to be loved, so to think he is and to find out he has never been…. That’s a harsh one.
As for Adolin not being truthful either, I’d say he doesn’t have much to hide. He simply goes around with a public persona built on expectations. His problems lack in the fact he very fearful, but surely he intends to drop this mask eventually… or else he’ll just run away.
This relationship could stall. If neither if willing to make it move forward and if the main narrative plot does not allow for them to fall into a chasm in order to force bonding, then it may just never happen.
Edit because I have just read @64 and I thought he made a valid point:
It is true Shallan seems more attached to the idea of a relationship than Adolin himself. To echo my own questioning, shouldn’t we also ask herself what truly motivated her when she forces herself onto him, refusing to answer the unspoken questions on his lips, brushing it away and insisting nothing changed when everything did change? Was it Adolin she truly wanted or the security blanket which the relationship has come to represent? And how about how little consideration she had for him in this scene? Couldn’t she acknowledge these were quite a few changes and he may need time to process through them? Couldn’t she have sounded a bit more supportive, instead making it be about her when it was about him……. It bugs me. The more I try to shake this bee hive, the more bug I am.
As much as I love the Shallan/Adolin ship, I do feel as well the casual needs to get out of the way. I too would prefer if they chose each other outside the constraint reign of an arrange wedding. It would also be interesting for Brandon to try to write a forced engagement which falls apart because so far, he has not done it.
@64 FenrirMoridin: Yeah, it might help many of the issues in the relationship for Shallan to step back and figure out more about who she is and what her purposes are before going farther. And I also keep hoping that she’ll find other good relationships that don’t have all the baggage of a romantic one…Perhaps with Navani?
@65 Gepeto: One of Shallan’s traits that hasn’t come up much in this debate so far is her tendency to avoid facing problems. Certainly she can deal with them when she needs to, but if there’s something she’s uncomfortable about, her first impulse is to distract herself away from it. I wonder if this is what’s going on in that scene with Adolin. She realizes that the relationship will have to change now that she’s been revealed as a Radiant, but she doesn’t want to deal with it, not now. She just wants to distract herself and Adolin and forget any problems for the time being. Of course, both of them were exhausted after everything that had just happened, it really wasn’t a good time to talk about the changes…just so long as they get to it eventually.
Oh, and I forgot to mention earlier – Brandon Sanderson has said that Dalinar is his favorite character, sort of, but with lots of qualifications about how it’s like picking between children, etc.
Shallan spent most of her life isolated and powerless. Now she plays many different roles, but doesn’t really know which one is the real her. At the end of the book one of the Gostbloods says Veil is her real self, but to her it is just another role she played. The Faceless Men teach becoming no one so you can be anyone, but Shallan needs truth do balance the lies. She has to figure out who she really is before she can show Adolin her true self.
The other girls Adolin dated didn’t act genuinely either. Adolin likes Shallan because she doesn’t follow the same script they did and instead talks about the things that really interest her. She just didn’t discuss all her traumas on her first date.
That she deliberately tries to attract Adolin’s interest doesn’t necessarily mean that her interest isn’t genuine. She doesn’t have any experience with dating (unless you count writing love letters for her brother) and does what she thinks will work when she realizes that she really likes him. She is too busy to do nothing but take care of Adolin.
Interrupting the post with a set of questions. Below is the collected questions I have seen on the reread for Brandon at JordanCon. If you want to add to the list, please post it or send me a message by 4 PM on Wednesday. I’ll be printing my final list at that time. Sorry the numbering got messed up when posting.
Questions for Brandon or Peter: JordanCon
Pai – is she a Worldhopper?
Where is Liss and have we seen the last of her?
Why did Navani go to the Shattered Plains and left Kholinar if her daughter-in-law was such an idiot?
Was the Queen being influenced by Odiuim?
What happens to the spren the Parshendi bound when they switch forms?
What is the official timeline of the Cosmere?
Will anything besides the Parshendi be converted into a Voidbringer?
How will the Everstorm going to affect life on Roshar?
if Harmony made another Shard a Mistborn, would that mean their powers would start to mingle?
Did Shallan use her Lightbringer “I can improve people” power on Kaladin during their casam trip?
Does Hoid learn the languages of the planet via Connection investiture? Or is he just a gifted linguist?
From Sheesania:
When was the 17th Shard founded?
What does Hoid think about whatever Sazed is doing? (This is a kind of vague question.)
Version one: Does Hoid agree with Sazed limited interference policy?
Version two: Have Hoid and Sazed (as Harmony) interacted?
Does this concept of the “God Beyond” that we’ve seen in multiple Shardworlds have Cosmere significance?
Is it rooted in a true phenomenon?
Or is it just natural evolution of religion or something along that line?
Does Yolen still exist?
Is Nazh’s knife from Secret History made of aluminum? or silver as a Threnodite
@66: Should we talk about Navani? She strikes as a very cold individual, yet I know she cares about her children, but her insane logic seem to get in the way of her feelings more often than not. She has gotten involved to the bare minimum into her nephews life, so why is it she would involve herself more into Shallan’s life?
Yes Shallan avoids problems, I do agree with you. I also agree that, in this last scene, she did try to brush the issue under the carpet, refusing to acknowledge it even was one. I thought it was unfair of her. Come to think of it, I do think our Radiants have the tendency to be unfair. They consider their reveal to be a personal thing, to be the ones having to suffer, but each and every single one of them failed to acknowledge there may be consequences for those being close to them. How can people not even think their closed one would be affected by their status/decisions?
What if they are wrong? What if the weight of their new status was not on them but on others now forced to interact and evolve into a world they have not been prepared to walk into? Is it worst to the be the bringer of change, when you had a spren to prepare you to it for weeks/months/years, or is it worst being the one having to live through it without any foreboding signs?
So what is Shallan doing out there? My guess is she only thinks of herself and not of her partner. She was being ego-centric and while it may be understandable, it was still wrong of her. She didn’t need to get into an in-depth discussion, right now, but she could have said “We will talk about it when we are both rested.”, but just as any important discussion required for an healthy relationship, she refuses to have those discussions. The behavior is not without recalling me of Dalinar in WoK who refused over and over again to talk to Adolin about his visions up until the boy cracked up and yell at him…..
Speaking of which, thanks for recalling me this WoB. I had forgotten about it. I personally find Dalinar an intriguing character due to his past: I would probably read an entire book with just his flashbacks, but his present day self gives me the creep. I don’t like the guy…. He may have good intentions, but something is off with him…
@68: Braid Thug, here are few questions I have wanted to ask… still within my favorite subjects… That’s quite a bunch of questions, so feel free to ask whichever pleases you the most. I dunno which one would give the most interesting answer overall. I have zero experience in asking questions to the man. So here it is.
I have always wanted to ask Brandon about Adolin’s difficulties in throwing his Blade. As far as we know, the command to force a Shardblade to remain solid while not touching it is rather straight-forward: several characters have been seen succeeding in sending it rather effortlessly. Aladar, Dalinar and even half-traumatized, untrained and crying Renarin do it. So why it is Adolin can’t do it after the encounter with Szeth? Is it possible to unsettle a Shardbearer enough he/she would fail at controlling his/her own Shardblade or is it a symptom of something else? (Yeah of course, I am trying to get clues here…… Is there anything we perhaps missed going on in this scene?)
On the side of fluffy questions, I have been wanting to ask Brandon if he could tell us anything yet untold pertaining to Adolin/Renarin brother to brother relationship. I have always enjoyed reading them together and I wanted to get more insight, something which isn’t in the book and may or may not come into play in future books.
A delta question on this one would be asking if Renarin arbors any negative feeling towards Adolin as Dalinar did towards Gavilar. Is the apparent lack of jealousy real or is Renarin just good at hiding it?
Is it fair to say Dalinar is a perfectionist who imposes high standards on those around him and is it fair to say Adolin is as well for he strives to meet them to the perfection? Is this related to his issues with women?
How serious is Shallan with Adolin? Does she care for him, a little, or is it all for the money/power/protection?
We have very little physical description of Renarin, so could you expand? Since Adolin presumably physically resembles his mother, can we say Renarin resemble Dalinar? And is he handsome or is he “unfortunate” like Dalinar? (OK, silly one, but I kind of wanted a personal imagery of Renarin and I can’t figure out if he looks more like Adolin or Dalinar.)
Because I have read many people extrapolate and speculate over Renarin having had a close relationship with Jasnah, I’d like to know what her relationship was with her young cousins. We already have the answer pertaining Elhokar, but I’d like to know if Renarin/Adolin ever had anything resembling to a relationship with her or was she just too old.
In the same vein, what does Elhokar think of his younger cousin? Do they have anything also resembling a relationship?
To spice things up, is any of the Kholin younger people illegitimate?
@67 birgit: Yeah, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Shallan being careful and deliberate in her behavior towards Adolin, so long as she has the right motives. I suspect we all thought it was sweet when Steris devised conversation topics and witty remarks ahead of time to amuse Wax, since she was genuinely trying to make him happy. Some people just do things more intuitively and others need to consciously think their actions through…So I don’t have an issue with Shallan deliberately trying to attract Adolin’s attention, so long as it’s honest and it’s from a real desire to build a good relationship that will serve him, too.
@68 Braid_Tug: Wow, that is a lot of questions! Thanks for doing this for us. :) I came up with a few more questions since last time, so if you’re interested, here they are:
-Is Khriss working for the 17th Shard? Is she a lone operator?
-Has Kelsier had any interactions with the Shard of Autonomy or magic derived from it?
-Say a kandra ate someone’s body and took on their form in every detail, then the kandra fathers/mothers children. Would the children be identical in every way (physical, cognitive, and spiritual) to children that the original person could have had? If not, how would they be different?
@69: I can see several of your questions getting the RAFO card. But will see what tidbits Team Sanderson will share.
To me Renarin is a plainer blend of his parents. You can tell he an Adolin are brothers, but Adolin has the better looks. If Renarin was more like Dalinar, I think the text would have said that. But Renarin doesn’t have to content with the broken nose of his father.
@70: Good questions.
I can already answer the Kandra & children one. Kandra an infertile. They can have sex, and be either gender when they want to be. A kandra with a uterus cannot support a child. Kandra with testicles, I don’t know if they produce real sperm or can just fake it (if that was needed during Era 1). But it would be lifeless sperm.
@71 Braid_Tug: Thanks! On the kandra, I’m pretty sure I saw a WoB somewhere that it was possible for them to have human children while in human form – they can’t make more kandra that way, but they could have humans. However, now I can’t find the WoB on Theoryland or in my notes…maybe I just imagined it. Do you have a definite citation for that? I just posted a question about it on the Mistborn subreddit and got a bunch of people theorizing, but none of them have come up with the WoB I was looking for yet.
@72: uhmmmm…. I’ll have to get that clarified. Thanks! But, if they can have human children, then it would have to be via the eggs the human already had. So the child would have the DNA of the consumed human. male sperm having a much shorter life…would still be the DNA of the testicles used.
… Never thought I would be using some of these words in the reread. :-D
@73 I’ve officially spent more time than I ever thought I would thinking about the contents of sentient shapeshifting amoebas’ junk.
Yeah, uh, sorry to derail the conversation like that…
Re: Kandra having children. Well, just one question and this might be the wrong place to ask but since we are talking about it, this is my question. Wax was married to a Kandra for 20 years. And, from the looks of it, no children. Is it because they decided not to have it or it was just the way the cookie crumbled?
@70: Steris is a good example of someone who actually works for her relationship to succeed and who genuinely makes effort to please her partner. I am only half-way through SoS but so far, she has been more pro-active in her relationship than Shallan. She is trying. Shallan is trying as well, but she has yet to make one compromise for Adolin. So far, it has been about her and only her.
@71: Oh you think so? They didn’t seem this terrible… though a RAFO may be a good answer to several as it would basically mean “yes” or “you are onto something”.
As for Renarin, I have always found the lack of physical descriptive strange. Other characters have been described, perhaps not in detail but we do know the basics: handsome, ugly, tall, etc. On Renarin? Nothing. Does he look more like Adolin or Dalinar?
@76: Careful with spoilers: you can’t assume all participant in this thread has finished SoS and BoM. I wished I hadn’t read this post. You gave me a massive spoiler.
@77 – “This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion.”
When a book has been out for six months, you should be aware that most people have read it, and by that time are no longer marking spoilers consistently. We all try, but it’s a risk you have to accept.
@73 Braid_Tug: The folks on Reddit found the WoB I was looking for!
So yeah, my question for Brandon Sanderson & co is basically how the resulting children would be different from children the original body could have had – Physically, Cognitively and Spiritually.
Huh, that’s interesting about the kandra-human procreation – the possibility never even occurred to me. So, why didn’t Lessie have a child with Wax? Probably because it wouldn’t have been really hers, but that of the body she appropriated. And also, it would have gotten in the way of their adventuring together and her task of protecting Wax.
Braid_Tug, another thing I am curious about is why neither Ruin nor Preservation were able to venture far onto the ocean in the cognitive realm in SH, where the Elantrian base was. Is the cognitive shadow of that place not wholly of Scadrial, is it some kind of inter-world crossroads? Or is there something else?
Oh, and another thing – though itmight have been already answered in the books and I have just missed it – can there be new kandra? I know that the number of “blessings” is fixed – though I imagine that some devoted dying people might have volonteered to provide more, given the opportunity. But are there any mistwraiths to take up the spikes of those kandra that chose to die? IIRC, the characters think that the mistwraiths are extinct, but are they? And/or can/does Harmony create some on case-to-case basis, so that they can claim vacant spikes?
OTOH, the question most near and dear to my heart from your list is this:
“What happens to the spren the Parshendi bound when they switch forms?”
So, if there is any kind of popularity vote, it would be my pick…
Isilel @@@@@ 80 – IIRC, there cannot be anymore kandra. The knowledge died with the Lord Ruler. And even if it survived, the creation of one is so evil (as in many people will have to die) that not one among those who might have known the secret wants to make a new kandra.
@71 braid_tug, @72 sheesania I was going to come out of delurk mode yesterday to make the same comment that Sheesania did – definitely read somewhere on 17th shard that kandra can have human children. If a kandra is human female, then she has to stay in that shape for the duration of the pregnancy. I had a quick look on the site yesterday, but couldn’t find where I read it so can’t usefully help to confirm this.
Back to the chapter. I disagree once again with Gepeto’s take on the characters in @69. It seems odd to love the books yet to be unsympathetic to the leading characters except for one whom he mostly pities. Shallan is not being unsympathetic or selfish with Adolin in their last meeting. The passionate kiss that she gave was the best way of showing that she was still in love with him after the revelation of her Radiant abilities and her finding a place of refuge for the survivors of Dalinar’s army. In other words, Adolin’s position in Alethi society may have motivated her original interest in the causal; it was not the present cause. They were both exhausted and a long revealing conversation was not timely. What I did miss was the conversation between Shallan and Kaladin which could have started with “Flyboy, explain your lack of such abilities when we faced death in the chasm, or why we were even stuck there”. However, that conversation will likely appear in the next book, as will the conversation between Shallan and Adolin. Navani is passionately in love with Dalinar so that she can’t be characterized as a “very cold individual”. Dalinar is a convert to the Nohadian code of conduct after many years of glorying in personal combat and violence. Think of him as a convert who is so utterly serious about his ‘newfound’ beliefs. His past life may have been more ‘interesting’, but that doesn’t make his present character less sympathetic of “off”. .
@83: Simply because I disagree with Shallan’s behavior does not mean I am unsympathetic towards her. I believe our understanding of the story moves much farther when we actually try to criticize the characters. As I stated earlier, my goal was to shake the bee hive and see what would come out of it. Our thoughts can’t progress if they aren’t challenged and sometimes trying to embrace other opinions help shape them better.
The reason I never critic Adolin is I never had cause to in the discussions we previously had. He is a mere side characters, so there is much less to discuss than the main ones. The shipping discussions are not going to get resolved through Adolin, but through Shallan. As far as we can tell, she is one holding the cards in her hands.
I am sorry you seem to dislike my posts but, on average, they tend to create a lot of discussions. I am putting myself out there, being the owner of the forever unpopular opinion or flavor of the day and I do it mostly so discussion could flourish. The responses I get are usually mild, sometimes positive, sometimes negative when they aren’t downright unsympathetic.
OK I’ll play..
A superb chapter, great writing. I really enjoyed going back to previous Dalinar/Amaram chats & seeing how often Dalinar holds back on his call-out, as the trap has not been completed at those points. Little clues that he believed Kaladin early on but needed his Herald and Blade in place before confronting Amaram. Wonder if Adolin added his ‘nectar’ comment off-camera as well?
Super late to the party since I’ve been on vacation but I love this chapter! All the comments have been great to read.
@85 I would love to know what hints you saw because it came out of left field to me that Dalinar actually believed Kaladin. I was right there with Kal being dejected that he was going to have to apologized to that slime. And coming right on the heels of his victory against the chasmfiend being essentially erased. I get why Shallan had to hide her Shardblade, now wasn’t really a good time to tell people about it but while we the reader get to see Kaladin at his most kick-ass and awesome it not recognized in world yet and I was looking forward to that moment all way through the book and it looked more and more like it wasn’t going to happen at all.
Re: Shallan
I think it’s also worth noting that Shallan is trying to follow in Jasnah’s footsteps as well, and Jasnah went it alone. The scene is coming up soon where Shallan was talking to Dalinar and it hit’s her that she can’t go it alone like Jasnah did, she has to trust someone. I think she’s holding her cards close to her chest out of habit and because she trying her hardest to emulate her mentor.
Speaking of Jasnah: @83 I want that conversation between Shallan and Kaladin to happen so much. I also really want to see a scene where Syl and Pattern interact and Kaladin and Shallan sheepish look on because how do you stop a spren cat fight?
\o/ Yay more Kaladin/Jasnah supporters! I’ve been shipping them since WoK and then was crushed when Jasnah was “killed” early in this book. My hopes and dreams crushed! (Yes, I’m being melodramatic.) I just also want to point out that is possible to asexual but not be aromantic or vice versa. Granted the two are often thought of going hand in glove but they don’t have to. Count me as one of the number who are hoping that if/when the reason for Jashan’s personal life choices comes out that it doesn’t have to do with trauma being the reason for her avoidance of sexual/romantic relationships or marriage.
I have to say, I agree with many commenters here that both Adolin and Kaladin was just wonderful protagonist and I want all of them to be happy (though I wonder if this is that kinda of story- at least when it comes the possible romantic parts of the story).
Oh Gepeto; if you shake a beehive, you get bees. And angry bees at that. Now, if you smoke a beehive you can get at the honey and the bees end up just slightly worried. ;)
I’ve said it before in previous post but I think that the difference for Adolin/Shallan vs. Kaladin/Shallan is that Shallan wants her relationship to work with Adolin so it’s not very surprising that she trying to present her best self to him. Though I think that she can’t help but let bits of the real her poke through remember there first date of adorableness. I’ll echo the statement that they haven’t been together long but they potential. Personally, when I read the scenes with the two them together I think that she’s with Adolin more because she wants to be and less because of political gain but I wont deny that it’s a consideration for her. I just don’t think she’s really the type of person who could court a man with that as her main reason for being with him. YMMV.
@51 I’ve always just auto punctuated it in the first manner that your wrote out. I think that’s because I know that Pattern and Syl have both confirmed that the spren are taking action and forming bonds. This isn’t something that Taravangian can stop. For some reason the other manner of reading it never even occurred to me. This does make the diagram difficult to use. Thanks for writing them out.
Sorry for this comment being all over the place. Hopefully things still make sense. :)
Further to my comment at 82, I found this on 17th shard today:
[53:47]
Q: One, thank you for the cultural richness you show in everything, from Legion to […] to […]. One a completely different note, this became a question, I thought this had been answered, but kandra can’t produce kandra children.
A: Well, yes they can. You get them some spikes.
Q: Can the kandra produce human children with consumed parts?
A: You know, I saw a big thread on Reddit about it and chose not to participate, despite being asked to.
Q: I thought she said that you did, so…
A: I gave vague and unuseful answers, and so I’m going to give the same to you. RAFO.
From:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/53640-jordancon-this-year/page-4
@87: That’s my transcript from Braid_Tug asking my question last weekend. :) The question wound up getting kind of confused…
Looks like I may be nearly alone in fandom for actually being disappointed at the Dalinar and Amaram reveal. I mean, it was shocking and awesome … except that I had spent the whole book waiting for what I was absolutely sure would happen:
At some point, Shallan was going to spill some beans to Dalinar regarding the history of Amaram’s Blade. Kaladin would probably be present in his capacity as house guard. Shallan’s information might cause additional facts to come to light (timing details, probably), and one way or another, Amaram’s alibi would unravel.
This chain of events was so obvious, especially after Shallan recognized the Blade at the end of her Ghostblood black op. It just had to be a Chekhov’s Sword. Now it’s moot,* and I was quite disappointed. Oh, Dalinar’s plan to test Amaram was a clever one, but I have to admit, I’m still pretty attached to my alternate history.
* Well, most of it is moot. We do still need to watch Shallan find out who killed Helaran.
So gut I just decided to post because I noticed something terrible and my husband is lagging behind with reading his Sanderson…
What if Shallan is who makes Adolin crack? D: