Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Rlain spoke with Dalinar about the changes which had come to his people, and his fears for them. This week, the highprinces decide to press on toward Narak, while Kaladin answers Elhokar’s questions with merciless honestly.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 80: To Fight the Rain
Point of View: Shallan, Kaladin
Setting: The Shattered Plains, the Kholin Warcamp
Symbology: Spears, Jezrien
IN WHICH Shallan climbs a hill and sees a city; the highprinces discuss their options; Shallan contributes her opinion; the decision to push on is agreed; Dalinar grills Shallan on the Oathgate; Kaladin walks the camp, hating the rain and regretting his choices; Elhokar awaits him at the barrack; the king speaks frankly, seeking Kaladin’s advice on being heroic; Kaladin cannot help him, but also speaks frankly; Elhokar apologizes for his treatment of Kaladin after the duel, and admits his fault in ruining the plan; he leaves.
Quote of the Week
“It’s here,” she said.
Gaz scratched at the socket beneath his eye patch. “Rocks?”
“Yes, guardsman Gaz,” Shallan said. “Rocks. Beautiful, wonderful rocks.”
In the distance, she saw shadows draped in a veil of misty rain. Seen together in a group like this, it was unmistakable. This was a city. A city covered over with centuries’ worth of crem, like children’s blocks dribbled with many coats of melted wax. To the innocent eye, it undoubtedly looked much like the rest of the Shattered Plains. But it was oh so much more.
It was proof. Even this formation Shallan stood upon had probably once been a building. Weathered on the stormward side, dribbled with crem down the leeward side to create the bulbous, uneven slope they had climbed.
I can’t even begin to explain why I love this passage so much. It has something to do with the moment of proof, of vindication that Jasnah’s (and now Shallan’s) theories and extrapolation were correct. From the reader’s perspective, their correctness was inevitable, of course. Still, this moment when Shallan sees the confirmation, is totally gratifying after all the mixture of conviction, skepticism, and anxiety over the probable location of Stormseat. She still has to find the Oathgate, of course, but this is pretty strong evidence that she’s close.
(It also reminds me irresistibly of the scene in C. S. Lewis’s The Silver Chair, when Jill, Eustace, and Puddleglum look out the window of the castle and realize that they had walked right through the city they were seeking without recognizing it. Fortunately, unlike Jill, Shallan recognizes it before she gets there.)
Off the Wall
You must become king. Of Everything.
—From the Diagram, Tenets of Instruction, Back of the Footboard: paragraph 1
Heh. After last week’s discussion, now I can’t help reading that in poetic rhythm. It’s iambic, though not pentameter, and I’ve not studied poetry enough to tell you what it is (I’ll leave that to our resident experts) but it does have a rhythm if you read it that way.
Anyway… Before I considered the implications of the inverse relationship of intelligence and compassion in Taravangian’s make-up, this didn’t sound so bad. Now, it gives me the heebie-jeebies. A man this unstable, with these wild swings of competence, set up as king of the whole world? This does not seem wise.
Commentary
Well, this is our last deep-breath chapter. This is the one where the last of the planning and maneuvering takes place; next week things begin to get noisy. On that note, I found this an interesting insertion:
These winds were unusual for the Weeping, which was supposed to be a period of placid rainfall, a time for contemplating the Almighty, a respite from highstorms.
Contrasted to Kaladin’s feelings, it once again shows up the marked dissimilarity in their attitudes toward the Weeping and the highstorms, only part of which can be attributed to their upbringing. Kaladin hates the Weeping as being a gloomy time with no highstorms; Shallan sees it as a respite from them. I don’t know if it’s intentional, but the difference seems to reflect the contrast in their Radiant Orders as well as their personalities.
Moving right along… Things really are starting to get tense. The highprinces are meeting in one of several identical tents, to make it difficult for an enemy strike team to take them out. The armies have been skirmishing for the last couple of days, with the Parshendi apparently attempting to steer them away from the center. Soldiers are nervous, as the familiar enemy has been replaced by red-eyed nightmares from ancient legends. It’s now necessary to decide whether to prepare a defensive entrenchment, or continue to advance on the Parshendi’s home plateaus. And it’s reached the point where, though no one will quite say it out loud, it’s too late to attempt to retreat back to the warcamps. They are committed, one way or the other. They have to fight… and either win, or find Shallan’s anticipated escape route through the Oathgate.
“Tomorrow is the last day of the countdown,” Dalinar said. “Scribbled on the walls during highstorms. Whatever it is, whatever it was, we meet it tomorrow— and you are my backup plan, Shallan Davar. You will find this portal, and you will make it work. If the evil overwhelms us, your pathway will be our escape. You may be the only chance that our armies— and indeed, Alethkar itself— have for survival.”
No pressure, though.
Speaking of escape routes, Nazh seems to have acquired a copy of Shallan’s map. I have to wonder if he’s tagging along with the expedition, making like a cartographer. He was disguised as an ardent near the beginning of the book, chased out by Rock for trying to get a good look at the Bridge Four tattoos; perhaps he’s still hanging around.
It’s also worth mentioning that the final comment on this map was the clue that identified Nazh’s home planet for us: he’s from Threnody, the world of Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell. Also, there are limits to his attention to detail. Heh.
Meanwhile, back at the warcamp, Kaladin continues to be stubborn. As much as I like to rag on him for being a grump (as well as for some very poor decision-making!), I’m really proud of him here. While it would probably be better for his leg if he stayed off it longer, it’s definitely better for his mind to fight—the rain, the depression, the pain, the wound, his grief… He’s got a lot to fight, and if he took the easy way and gave in on just one facet, I think the rest would follow and he’d collapse completely. Continuing to fight is keeping him sane, and in my opinion, all of those individual battles work together to keep his mind functioning so that he’s able to reason through to his eventual epiphany.
One near-term effect is that he’s beginning to be more honest with himself, as he considers the people who are out on the Plains without him. In this moment, he muses on what might have happened had he been willing to be a Windrunner openly.
He had been so close to revealing what he could do…
You’d been thinking that for weeks, he thought to himself. You’d never have done it. You were too scared.
He hated admitting it, but it was true.
Yes, it was true, and it’s part of what damaged his bond with Syl so badly. For a Windrunner, it seems, acting based on irrational fear is not a tenable option.
The flip side does, however, have one potential for disaster: being more honest than diplomatic can be dangerous when dealing with kings. It turns out relatively well for Kaladin, despite his lack of tact; Elhokar was apparently already in a self-flagellating mood, and didn’t get as angry as he could have. (Not that I’m faulting Kaladin’s response, mind you; even kings shouldn’t ask questions if they aren’t willing to hear truthful answers.) For Elhokar’s sake, I’m not sure what the wiser approach would have been. He’s willing, for the first time, to admit that the dueling fiasco was his own fault, brought on by his envy and resentment, so that’s good. However, Kaladin’s bluntness may also be, at least in part, to blame for the drunken state in which he finds the Elhokar later.
I think this scene may be the first time I began to hope Elhokar does form a Nahel bond; while he doesn’t handle it with grace, he does admit to his (serial) failures and is willing to seek advice, even from a darkeyes. It’s just a flash, but a flash of humility could be a wonderful thing for him.
Stormwatch
Two days after Chapter 79, this is the last day before Zero Hour.
Sprenspotting
The only direct mention of spren is the rainspren, which Kaladin dislikes and considers creepy—but both reactions are probably associated with his dislike of the rain.
Something I find more interesting, though, is something we’ve discussed before; now is the time to dig into it.
“When you came, the shadows went away.”
“The… shadows?”
“I saw them in mirrors, in the corners of my eyes. I could swear I even heard them whispering, but you frightened them. I haven’t seen them since. There’s something about you. Don’t try to deny it.”
The obvious connection of Elhokar’s “shadows” is to Shallan’s earlier views of the Cryptics. This has led many of us to assume that Elhokar is a Lightweaver candidate; it has also led many to push back against that idea because they can’t conceive of Elhokar as a viable candidate for any Radiant Order, and there’s no observable connection to Lightweaving.
In defense of the Cryptics theory, I have to point out two things. One is his description of them (TWoK Chapter 58): “I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman.” That sounds very, very like Shallan’s early glimpses of Pattern & Co. It’s hard not to find this a compelling argument. The second is that while we don’t see Elhokar being artistic or creative in the usual ways—those are feminine roles in Vorinism, anyway—we do see a noteworthy ability to lie to himself, as well as a reasonably well-developed ability to play a role when it’s demanded of him. Specifically, he does his best to play the role of King, even though he himself knows he’s not really doing a very good job of it. These aspects may be enough to attract the attention of the Cryptics, though they have clearly not done much to create a Nahel bond with him.
On the other hand, as we’ve learned more about spren and how Realmatics functions on Roshar, it’s also worth noting that there are a great many spren on this planet, and of varying levels of sapience. Next week’s Diagram quotation, which is the next thing you see when you turn the page after reading Elhokar’s departure from Kaladin’s quarters, is about the Unmade. It declares that “many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty.” Could there be another variety of spren, a lesser-Unmade variety, which might be described in terms similar to the Cryptics? In other words, have there been Odium-spren hanging around Elhokar, which were driven away by the presence of a Windrunner?
The Windrunner repellent effect is certainly not conclusive, since we know that honorspren and Cryptics are somewhat at odds. If Elhokar had ever seen Pattern, or if Shallan had ever seen the creatures hanging around Elhokar, we’d have gotten immediate clarification. For now, it remains an open question—but one very worth consideration.
Ars Mechanica
Clearly Navani needs to invent a spyglass with a built-in drying fabrial. Foggy lenses are a drag.
Heraldic Symbolism
Jezrien stands alone on this chapter. My best guess is that in the first half, Dalinar is displaying the leadership of a general and a king; in the second half, Kaladin the Windrunner faces Elhokar the King. Jezrien-symbols everywhere!
Shipping Wars
I’ve made no secret (duh!) of the fact that I vastly prefer the Adolin-Shallan ship to the Kaladin-Shallan version. However, there are some interesting mentions in this chapter that I’d like to examine in more detail, and consider the motivations for the trio’s relationships.
Shallan’s interest in Adolin has several aspects. First, he’s simply a much higher-status match than she could ever have hoped for, prior to her father’s death. However you might feel about it IRL, in this society, that matters for most people. Previously, she would have expected to marry for the sake of her family—either someone slightly above her station, in hopes of elevating the family with her, or someone below her station, as a reward or bribe to keep creditors from being obnoxious. To then find herself betrothed to the most eligible bachelor in Alethkar, near in line to the throne? It’s like a fairytale.
Second, she finds him physically attractive. While this tends to be somewhat lower on the scale of importance for women than for men, it certainly adds to the fairytale sensation.
He pushed up his faceplate. Storms… he looked so good, even when you could see only half his face. She smiled.
Third, he finds her interesting. This, my friends, is a powerful draw. For a girl who has been isolated most of her life, essentially brought out for display and then locked away again, with little chance to develop friendships beyond her own family, this has to be amazing: the handsome prince likes being with her. She elicits candid reactions from someone very practiced in the social game that is courtship, and he enjoys it. She has a lot of reason to stick with this betrothal.
Adolin’s interest in Shallan also has multiple aspects. The first thing we heard from him about it was that it was kind of a relief to have someone else arrange his betrothal. IMO, he hasn’t really cared all that much about any of the individual women he’s courted, but at the same time he feels like the constantly failing courtships are a bad thing, and it must be his fault. (Well, it is his fault—but I don’t think he’s entirely made the connection that he’s not going to do a very good job of courting someone if he doesn’t actually care about her as a person.)
Second, she’s so different from all the other girls he’s courted that she actually gets his full attention. She looks different—she’s shorter than the Alethi women; she has fiery red hair and fair skin instead of black hair and tan skin. She acts different, too; she doesn’t exactly know how the whole courtship thing is supposed to work, she hasn’t practiced it, and she’s just too spontaneous to color within the lines anyway. For someone who’s jaded by an endless parade of women who follow all the same social formulas of appearance, fashion, and behavior, she’s a breath of fresh air. She makes him smile just by being there.
He saw her, and gave her a quick smile before clinking up to the table.
She also doesn’t demand his attention whenever they’re in the same vicinity; she seems to think they both have things to do besides courting, and sometimes those things are more important. She’s perfectly happy to share a quick smile and then get on with the task; from what little we saw of his other relationships, I have a feeling that’s rare. For the first time ever, he’s courting a woman who expects to work alongside him and who can function just fine without obsequious attention.
Kaladin’s interest in Shallan is, I think primarily focused on two things. One, she has something he strongly associates with Tien: she can smile, and make him smile, even in the midst of trying circumstances. Tien could always cheer him up just by being his cheerful, smiling self; now that he’s gotten to know her, he sees something of that same character in Shallan. And like Tien, she can make him smile just by thinking about her.
He splashed through puddles of water, and found himself smiling because he wore the boots Shallan had stolen from him.
I never did believe she was a Horneater, he thought. I need to make sure she knows that.
He never had a sister, but this is so sibling-esque it kills me. The other thing I’m seeing that attracts him is her sense of word-gaming. While it may not exactly match his own, it’s close enough to the word-play he had with his mother to feel familiar and nostalgic.
In other words, much of her appeal for him is rooted in things that make him feel the way he used to feel at home, before Roshone’s bitterness tore his life apart.
And… she’s beautiful. Oh, yes. That is not insignificant.
So… what about Shallan’s interest in Kaladin? This is the one we have the least to go on, but there are certainly a few clues. One is, of course, that he’s got the quick-witted repartee she enjoys but so rarely gets to share. She’s accustomed to being the clever one, and hasn’t had many opportunities for verbal sparring with anyone up to her standard. Wikim used to keep up with her, sometimes; I suspect that her father used to, long before that—but that’s only guessing. Kabsal was clever and quick-witted, and she certainly enjoyed that aspect of their relationship. Beyond that, she hasn’t had many others who could keep up with her. Jasnah, of course, could have completely outdone her, but she was too focused and intense.
The other observation Shallan has made about Kaladin, and which I’m not convinced was justified at the time, was the sense of stability and confidence he projected. This is not something she’s had a lot of in the past seven years, though she probably did before that. Once upon a time, her father gave her all the security and assurance she needed… but with her mother’s death, that eroded, leaving only the longing for something permanent.
Finally, it’s worth noting that Kaladin and Adolin have a firm respect for one another, and are developing a strong liking as well, whether they’ll admit it to anyone else or not. This will probably play into the shipping as it proceeds; Kaladin has already rejected the idea of swiping Adolin’s girlfriend once, based on his liking for Adolin and the way they seem to be good for each other.
Where all this will go in the next book, I don’t know. Some things will change for the better—like maybe Kaladin becoming as stable and confident as he appeared—while others may deteriorate. Having done all this analysis, I find myself thinking that as Radiants working together, I’d really prefer to see Shallan and Kaladin develop a sibling-like relationship, and leave the romance to Shallan and Adolin. I prefer it, and the way things are set up, it could go that way. Or… it could go several other ways. I guess I’ll wait and see…
Okay, y’all can rip that apart in the comments for a while, and next week the battle of Stormseat begins. It’s a long chapter, so come prepared!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader; today, she leaves you with these words of wisdom: “Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.”
Alice commented “A man this unstable, with these wild swings of competence, set up as king of the whole world? This does not seem wise.”
There are a number of comments that can be made here regrading present RL situations. So as not to unwittingly offend anybody, I will not make any of them.
I wonder if Jasnah could have found the Oathgate in the middle of the Plateaus without Shallan. Shallan was able to find the Oathgate in part to her artistic abilities (as applied to mapping), her special memory skills and her prior study of nature. These are some areas where Jasnah was not as strong as Shallan.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
In keeping with my habit of referring to the Vorkosigan books, Cordelia would say that being king (or emperor in her case) is making a lie true. It seems like the performative aspect of kingship is a delicious lie and it’s one that goes on and on and on. Elhokar’s whole life is metaphor and I think that would appeal to a cryptic.
Why does Khriss want a map of the shattered plains? In the latest Mistborn she’s interested in physics. Could we build a timeline of her studies and interests?
I think Shallan would find being protected familiar, which we saw when she lashed out at Adolin isn’t always a good thing. But I think Windrunners offer a healthy kind of protection; not protective custody but a refuge. The Ideals clearly enjoin the Windrunners not to stifle or smother the people they protect. Kaladin offers Shallan a positive version of the impulse that helped destroy her childhood. I would not be surprised if the Third Ideal is a promise to protect people in way that does not damage them.
As unintentional as it is on both their parts, this is the setup that Kaladin needs to see Elhokar’s humanity on display later. A big part of Kaladin’s decision to stop the assassination plot is seeing echoes of his own doubt and pain in the king.
I’ve often thought there’s a lot about Elhokar that’s intentionally hidden from us. Without having him as a PoV, we have none of his inner life and no glimpse of what he does with his private time. For all we know, some of his shame could come from an interest in pursuits dubbed feminine by his culture. It’s a stretch, but it illustrates how little we really know about him.
The two descriptions we’re given of the spren he sees are giant red flags. We don’t know much about Odium spren, but the descriptions don’t suggest they look like red versions of Honor or Cultivation spren that we’ve seen. I think we are seeing Cryptics, perhaps ‘scouting’ Elhokar and not yet bonding with him.
Alice – thanks for the explanation re: Adolin and Shallan ship. Well put together as always. :-)
Re: Elhokar – I’ve always felt that he has been given a bad rap. There is no logic in my feelings, but there it is.
@@.-@ sheiglagh
I don’t think Elhokar is a bad guy either. He’s just not that good at his job and it looks like he wasn’t well trained or completely prepared to take the throne. Monarchies don’t have great ways of improving the quality of kingship.
@1, heh, I see where you going with that RL parallel…and concur.
At any rate, enjoyed this chapter. I agree with several above that Elhokar is something of a cipher to us. Perhaps to the Cryptics as well? He has always felt like a character with such potential to me. His father was a brilliant political leader who united a whole country, his mother a leading intellectual and formidable political figure herself, and his older sister formidably competent on several levels. You have to wonder a bit how he turned out how he did. Was Jasnah Navani’s favorite child, to the detriment of Elhokar? Navani and Elhokar certainly don’t seem close in the interactions we see. Did Gavilar neglect both his children in favor of building his kingdom and (possibly) starting the Sons of Honor? (And on a side note, what was Gavilar himself really like? Navani and Dalinar clearly remember him very differently. Hopefully Book 3 sheds some light on this.)
Children aren’t defined by their parents, certainly, and even the best-raised children can turn out very differently than might be hoped, but compared to his sibling, cousins, and parents, Elhokar is just tremendously unimpressive right now. From what we have seen of the other Kholins, you would expect at least competence, if not excellence.
I agree with Alice on the fraternal aspect of the new relationship between Kaladin and Shallan Another part of that is Kaladin’s strong suspicion that Shallan is a Radiant, but not of the Windrunner Order. He has seen her create images that tricked the Chasmfiend into engaging in some futile attacks, in order to gain time – not to mention her surprising and peculiar shardblade that didn’t elicit screams when he handled it and which changed sizes. If he can no longer show her his surgebinding abilities, he can at least talk about his former hidden abilities with an understanding soul. Then there is the fact that both he and Shallan have curious, analytical minds. That should count even more than their wordplay. Will it progress beyond such affinities? There are hints of a mutual fascination which could easily become of a romantic nature if allowed to progress.
As to Elhokar’s ghostly apparitions, they appear to be much like symbol-heads that Shallan saw in Kharbranth. The Cryptics are one of a few classes of non-Odium sapient spren that we have encountered. There are high-spren (Ivory), Cryptics (Pattern), and Honorspren (Syl) from Tanavast/Stormfather and some Cultivation/Nightwatcher spren (Wyndle). It appears that the Cryptics and possibly other spren types must be capable of forming different types of bonds in order to account for 10 Orders of Radiants So the Cryptics scouting Elhokar, who is from a family who have bonded spren, may yet produce a spren-bond if Elhokar rises to the occasion.
STBLST @@@@@ 7. I may be wrong — I do not have access to WoR at the moment — but I do not think Ivory is a highspren. I thought that Syl implied (if not explicitly stated) that highspren are bonded to Skybreakers. Ivory is the spren that bonds to Elsecallers.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
In my view, the Cryptics around Elhokar have nothing to do with his potentially being a Lightweaver. I think that as rulers among spren, Cryptics keep a watch around all physical-realm rulers. That also explains the Cryptics Shallan saw, since she first saw them around Taravangian.
To support my theory, here’s a WoB I got from Brandon when I met him at a signing:
That sounds like the Cryptics Shallan saw aren’t actually connected to her ability to soulcast.
That does leave us without an explanation for how Elhokar is able to see these Cryptics. Perhaps he’s starting to bond with another kind of spren, or perhaps he’s somehow outside the rules like Lift is. Or perhaps the spren have spent so much time around him, that it’s started to have some kind of an effect. Maybe Taravangian can see them in mirrors too, but doesn’t get freaked out coz he knows what they are?
@9 Havoc
The idea of the Cryptics keeping watch over powerful physical realm people makes sense, but I don’t think it offers a good explanation about why Elhokar sees them. Unless Cryptics one of the kinds of spren who have a hard time keeping themselves from being seen by humans?
I still think there’s something more going on with the king. It sounds like the Cryptics that Shallan saw probably followed her out of interest about her bond with Pattern. After all, it sounds like he was sent by a council that may have expected reports from him and when he disappeared because of the damaged bond, they may have grown concerned. So, they sent a few to look in on him.
Did Elhokar, like Shallan, begin bonding a spren and then damage or break the bond?
@8 AndrewHB
I think you’re right, Ivory is an unidentified kind of spren. Syl has strongly hinted that highspren bond with Skybreakers, which makes you wonder what they’re doing now and whether they agree with Nalan’s actions.
This is not really related to this chapter, but I just wanted to get it off my chest. I purchased the first part of the Graphic Audio reading of The Way of Kings. I was very impressed with what they did with Warbreaker. For anybody not familiar with Graphic Audio, they treat books like a movie with sound effects and a wide range of voice actors. Anyways, I’ve been listening to it on my way to work this week, and the guy who is voicing Kaladin…I just…ugh don’t want to be mean, but my lord it’s horrible. It’s so bad I almost don’t want to keep listening. It’s like he ignores the current mood of Kaladin and just reads the lines with no inflection. And his voice is just all wrong for Kaladin anyways. And since Kaladin is a main character…sigh.
Don’t mean to distract from the discussion of this chapter. Just wanted to vent my frustration :)
On the Symbolheads that Elhokar sees in mirrors: We just don’t have enough information for me to feel comfortable with holding any theories very dearly. They could be Cryptics, but we don’t know if any other types of Spren have symbol-headed appearances either. And we also know that some Spren have been corrupted by Odium – what if they’re Odium-Cryptics? Instead of looking to bond Elhokar in order to make another KR, they’re really there to sow chaos and discord by driving the only thing keeping Alethkar together (would Dalinar be able to keep things together without Elhokar? I doubt it.) insane. Or perhaps making him a pawn of Odium with an Odium-Knight Radiant Bond?!?!
Right now, based solely on the fact that Kaladin’s presence drove them away, I’m leaning towards this bad-Spren-trying-to-corrupt-the-King-of-Alethkar theory. Why would Kaladin’s mere presence drive true Cryptics away? He can’t see them, and even if he could, I don’t think he could do anything to them…
Alternatively, they are just normal Cryptics (or possibly, though I don’t believe it likely, another type of symbol-headed Spren that is interested in him, whether they are Nahel-capable or not), and are looking to bond him. I don’t really buy into the theory that they’re gathering intelligence – it strikes me as unlikely that a Cryptic would really understand Humans enough to get much out of it. Especially not THIS human.
Why would Cryptics be interested in Elhokar? There are many forms of art. We saw in some of the chapter headings that they bonded a man skilled in the art of war, and we really don’t know much of Elhokar’s aptitudes. We do know he has significant weaknesses. Based on what we do know of him, an aptitude for the art of Acting is as likely the answer as anything else. Of course, as that same chapter heading makes clear – just because a person initiates a Nahel bond does not mean he will be able to progress very much. On the other hand, this chapter does show him coming closer to a true understanding of himself, which has been speculated before to be part of the Lightweaver Advancement Plan.
On the Shipping Triangle: Again, I don’t have a horse in this race. I do like the idea of Adolin-Shallan, with Kaladin being a close friend/brother for both. That would suit me just fine, and I think it would well and truly work.
One comment I did want to make is in regards to previous comments that said that a Kaladin-Shallan match would inevitably end in strife & failure/divorce/whatever. I wholeheartedly disagree. EVERY relationship has areas of harmony and areas of contention, and those are always in constant flux as we grow, learn, and change. The existence of contention (or disagreements, or friction, or whatever you want to call it) in a relationship is FAR less important than how a person DEALS with them. And no, neither of these VERY YOUNG individuals deals with their baggage in a very healthy manner yet, but part of their growth in this book has been the process of learning to do exactly that – deal with baggage in a healthy way.
In the end, to make any relationship work, all you really need is a shared desire to MAKE it work, and the work ethic required to put in whatever work is necessary in order to do exactly that. And I think that both Shallan and Kaladin have shown they have the work ethics required to make it work.
So, call me a hopeless romantic if you wish, but if Kaladin ends up with Shallan, I will choose to believe that they live happily ever after to the end of their days. I mean, it’s worked for me and my wife for nearly 16 years now despite our differences, and it’s worked for my parents for 50.
First off, I wanted to praise Alice for her very detailed analysis of the various romantic ships. It distracted me from very important work, but it was worth it. I, of course, have comments on it, but I first wanted to address the first point of topic.
Elhokar.
Now, I am among those who refuse to entertain the possibility he may become a Radiant. I absolutely agree, at this point, it has gotten more personal than rational, but just the though of it makes the bile rise in my throat. If isn’t so much against Elhokar, I don’t necessarily hate the character and while I admit there likely is more than meet the eyes, I find I have no interest whatsoever in finding out about it. Brandon has create several vivid minor characters who struck an interest in me, characters such as Rysn, Axis, Reddin and a few others are intriguing, but Elhokar? Seriously, I see not need for him to evolve much beyond the role he currently has: a vessel to express Dalinar’s main weakness/flaw.
This leads me to my second point which may be a flaw into myself. I tend to regard the Nahel bond as a privilege, a reward bestowed on you for being such an outstanding human being in the face of adversity. In other words, I tend to believe you have to earn being a Radiant and this, this is where all theories wanting Elhokar to become one hurts me. He doesn’t deserve it. He isn’t outstanding, worst he is egocentric, selfish and self-centered. He may have admitted his failure, he still has to raise one finger to better himself or even better, he still has to acknowledge his bad rule is terrible for the people he is supposed to oversee. Yet, all I see when I read Elhokar’s drunken tirade is a selfish child who wants to be revered, who wants to be great and while wanting to be a strong king is a valid train of thoughts, I dislike the fact he wants it for himself and not for his kingdom. This is where, I believe, Elhokar fails the test at being a Radiant: he doesn’t think about others. Never. While I admit our Radiants have all been self-centered on several occasions (on many occasions even), there still was a side of them which tried to help/better/protect/guide others. They all had goals outside their persona which is exactly what I cannot see in Elhokar.
I agree this is a very poor argument. The even poorest argument is the fact I don’t see what it could add to the story to have Elhokar become a Radiant. It seems pointless and a boring arc to follow for a character which hasn’t raise much passion into the readers.
So I am essentially guilty of both not wanting and not seeing Elhokar as a potential Radiant as well as having close to no interest into his character. Mea Culpa.
As for Alice excellent text on shipping, I wanted to add one precision. Adolin may not have cared for any of the women he previously dated, I think we cannot conclude he would have never cared for any of them, had he let himself to. Had Adolin failed at a handful of courtships, I would buy the argument he simply has not found the right one, but the seer number of failed courtships makes it improbable. How can it be ALL the eligible young women of Alethkar are incapable of holding his interest? My take has been Adolin not only sabotage his relationships, he does it out of fear of engagement. While I initially thought he perhaps was afraid of being rejected, the recent WoB on the matter instead claimed he is indeed afraid, of not being good enough. In essence, it isn’t Adolin cannot care about any of those women, he runs away from them as soon as it starts to get serious for fear he would be found unsatisfactory. Again, it is all about expectations and an inherent fear he would not meet them.
I also agree Kaladin and Shallan’s relationship seems more appropriate for a sibling-like one, though argumentation can be made on both side. I have tried, in the last weeks, to further explore this possibility.
I like your thoughts on the shipping wars. I think a lot of how these relationships progress will depend on how Adolin’s murder of Sadeas develops. If he is condemned to prison or exiled it seems unlikely that the betrothal would move forward. If it remains a mystery and unattributed to Adolin or he is pardoned in some way then it seems more likely to move forward, especially with Jasna’s return. Either way, the next book can’t arrive soon enough!
@14 Gepeto: That all seems reasonable to me. Elhokar has thus far been a whiney, arrogant, annoying jerk.
I would add the caveat that just because he has thus far not seemed to be deserving of becoming a Radiant does not mean that he can’t do so at some point in the future.
Honestly, I feel a little sorry for the guy. He was obviously unprepared for the pressures placed upon him. He’s stuck between the memory of his father – the man who united the princedoms – and the Blackthorn, the war hero that everyone in Alethkar aspires to be. He clearly sees himself as lacking both his father’s political acumen and his Uncle’s awesomeness. He seems afraid of trying to live up to either role model for fear of failure (and I think that’s something we all share to some degree). He’s got ten Highprinces who only vaguely (and sometimes not even that) follow his commands, and he doesn’t have the power to force them to do so.
He’s in a remarkably difficult place. He’s not faring well with those pressures yet, but that doesn’t mean he won’t learn to do so. Anyway, just some random thoughts I had while reading this chapter.
AndrewHB – Heh. It’s just faintly possible that my subconscious was making these connections. Just faintly, though, you know? Because I wouldn’t consciously want to drag RL politics into this lovely space.
Also, that’s a great point about Jasnah finding the Oathgate. It’s Shallan’s photographic memory that makes it possible to recognize the pattern and interpolate it to this point. In the next chapter, it will be the recognition of the scout’s description as something that does not match that tells her exactly where to look. I honestly don’t know if Jasnah would have been able to see the connections or not.
Gepeto – I totally agree that if Elhokar turned into a Radiant at the beginning of the next book, I’d want some AMAZING justification for it. Right now, he’s mostly whiny, egocentric, and entitled; as you say, he wants to be a good king so he can be a good king, not so his kingdom will have a good king. However… there are just a couple of smidgens of potential for improvement at the end of the book. This chapter’s conversation with Kaladin, while it’s still pretty lame, is sort of a baby-step in the right direction: overtly recognizing some of his more egregious faults, anyway. Then, the humility that is forced upon him by living with the Herdazians is another; he’s still mighty whiny, but he mostly lets go of the bluster, anyway. If – and it’s a big if – Brandon were to set Elhokar on a path of increasing humility and personal growth so that he could become a good king, I could be happy with that. From that angle, the Order which moves its Knights toward self-awareness is, perhaps, the only Order that we could cheerfully see Elhokar entering. At this point, he’s not even close to the First Ideal – he wants the destination of being a good king without the journey to become a good king. But if he could grow from the slap-worthy knucklehead he is now into a good king over the course of several books? Maybe… maybe.
Great comments today, folks. Glad you enjoyed the Shipping Wars – I’ve been wanting to dig into that more formally for quite a while now, and this chapter afforded a good opportunity. Also, as always, there’s much more to be said about it all, and different angles to examine, so don’t stop now!
And… I just came across an awesome quote from another author altogether:
I’ll just leave that there…
Been a while since I have been able to post. Great comments as always.
Two things on Elhokar: No one likes a whiner. I blame the parents.
As 6. nageler talked about, it really seems that Navani and Elhokar have a distant relationship. It will be interesting to see if a day in the house of Lopen has an effect. It will also be interesting to see what is revealed in book 3 on how Elhokar is raised.
As for Shipping, Alice gives a perfect summary of the relationships as of this chapter. Shallan and Adolin seem almost perfect together. However, by the end of the book, I feel that the relationship is doomed … because Adolin becomes Shallan’s father. Adolin kills Sadeas in a fit of rage. It is not that he kills Sadeas, it is the way it was done and the reason it was done. This is the one thing Shallan cannot deal with and should not have to deal with. Shallan is strong enough to deal with over-protectiveness, but I cannot see how a marriage could work, if her husband has the same fatal flaw as her father.
My predication for book 3 is that Adolin is going to be tempted by the dark side and is going to have a lot of trouble dealing with it. Once his rage was set loose it will not be easy to contain it.
Halien @10:
Well, IIRC Shallan observes in her PoV that Pattern can’t disappear entirely, so there may be something to that.
@16: While I agree it isn’t impossible for Elhokar to grow into a “deserving character”, I do not wish for it to happen. Why? I do not feel Elhokar brings in something new nor refreshing within the story: the tropes revolving around him merely are a mashed up of tropes already being into action with more prominent character.
The son who can’t live up to his legend of a father? We have it already in Renarin.
The son who perhaps feels he has too much pressure (I haven’t read this in his character, but let’s assume it is indeed the case)? We have it already into Adolin.
Elhokar isn’t bringing enough to the story to warrant him being more fleshed out than he needs to be.
@17: As I answered to @16, I do not feel Elhokar adds much to the story. It could be Brandon has a grant plan for him which I cannot envision (it wouldn’t surprise me if he did), but still think Elhokar isn’t unique nor interesting enough to earn a bigger spot into the series. For him to morph from whiny “I want my destination but I don’t want to walk the journey” (great comment BTW, I had not thought of it from this angle) to Knight Radiants which does not feel like a cheat to us readers, would require him to earn several POV chapters and his own story arc. So unless he ends up being the “mystery” novella chapter set to appear into Part 2, I don’t see it happening.
@19: For my part, spending about 1 week with a family of Herdazian does not account for a traumatizing nor life defining event enough to justify a full 180 in a given character. It is just not enough for me. Perhaps if he spent months there, I’d buy it, but as far as the narrative goes, he was there for less than a week.
Oh I disagree about linking Adolin to Shallan’s father… Shallan’s father was mean to those he loved and he used his anger to assert his authority among he should have protected. Adolin used his anger to kill a man who threaten to injure those he loves… He did it to get rid of a bully while Lin was the bully: a major difference. Adolin killing Sadeas is more inline with Shallan murdering her father: they both had similar motives. Simply because Shallan’s actions weren’t interlaced with anger does not make her acts “superior”.
I seriously do not see where anyone can potentially see any link in between Lin and Adolin.. This is baffling. Simply because a character feels anger does not make him evil or a pawn to Odium. Anger is an emotion, it is neither good or evil, it simply needs to assessed and controlled. Adolin may have a hard time controlling his emotive side and he may have started to progressively break due to stress all through the book, it still does not make him evil nor a candidate to go evil. Those who seek evil powers tend to be those who have something to gain. Adolin isn’t after power nor fame nor glory: all he wants is to protect those he loves the most. If anyone is susceptible to fall prey to Odium, it is Elhokar, him who wants the destination without the journey: now this is the right mindset to go evil, not kind loving too sensitive Adolin.
21. Gepeto – From the flashbacks, I don’t think Shallan’s father was as mean and controlling before the betrayal and death of his wife. The darkness within him seemed to grow over time. The lies and stress provided an opening and Odium took advantage. As Shallan reflected when she discovered his second wife, “The lie became the truth.”
When Adolin murdered Sadeas, he snapped. He was not “angry” he was “completely, totally, and irrevocably enraged.” Adolin’s own thoughts tells us he knew what he was doing was wrong. “My father thinks I am a better man than he is. Unfortunately for you, he’s wrong.” Afterwards, “Had he just murdered a highprince?” As Syl would agree with, motive makes all the difference when you have to kill. In the moment of decision, Adolin did not kill to protect, he killed because he snapped and became enraged. Compare this to Shallan, who killed to protect her family and herself, and because she felt there was no other way. Heck, Brandon Sanderson, changed the ending of the climax after the book was published, because he wanted to make it clear that Kaladin ONLY kills to protect. (I am still pissed about that.) That is how important motive is in Roshar.
Since Adolin is now broken, he is susceptible to Odium’s influence and I have a feeling Adolin’s kind loving too sensitive side is not going to protect him. Not when he has such a low opinion of himself and has been progressively breaking due to all the stress placed on him.
STBLST @7
I don’t believe we have direct evidence that Ivory (whatever flavor spren he may be) and Pattern (Cryptics) are spren of Honor/Tanavast. There are theories (17th Shard, for instance) that the spren related to the bottom half of the WoK endplate are partially to completely spren of Cultivation. That’s the short version, anyway. While the theory remains to be verified (afaik), it’s clear all the Heralds on the bottom half of the endplate are female and those on the top are male. While the latter observation may not matter a bit in the big scheme of things, it’s at least food for further speculation. (And I don’t believe in coincidences in this Cosmere.)
@22: We do not know how Lin was prior to his wife’s death, but since Shallan was broken enough to have a viable Nahel bond, it is safe to assume all wasn’t pretty flowers and singing birds into this family. The man Lin become is not a path I see Adolin walk on because it would require for him to forsake every single thing he holds dear. He cannot become Odium’s vessel unless he completely erase everything he is in order to become someone else entirely. While we do not know much about Lin, it is safe to presume Odium took advantage of qualities he already possessed such as greed and a love for authority. Of course, these are suppositions, but evil doesn’t take root into the empty. A character isn’t a blank slate to be changed because in one moment he made a mistake.
Adolin cares too much about people to want to hurt them. This is a central part of himself, it is so central it pushes him to go against his orders and his father. We can’t just ignore this aspect of his personality because it would make it more convenient for Odium to grapple at him. He would never try to kill his brother or his father because they fail at meeting his expectations: Adolin is the one who receives the expectation, not the one who issues them.
Was Adolin enraged? Yes. He snapped. He broke down. Completely in a horrible and terrible way. The pressure, the stress, it was too much for him to bear, so he lost it and he will regret his actions. There will be consequences, terrible ones as his father is unlikely to ever forgive him, completely, not even on his death bed. He will have to bear forever the guilt of having fail his father. It is worst than Kaladin watching Tien died or Shallan killing her parents because both are just victims. They aren’t responsible for their faith, but Adolin is. Totally. He owns it, now he has to deal with it, for the rest of life.
I also disagree Adolin knows what he is doing. He was angry. Anger is a nasty little beast, too much of it and it wants to pour out. It will make you say thinks you do not truly think, worst it is going to make you feel as if you actually meant them, it will give you the justification (false) you needed to let go of your inhibition. Adolin killing Sadeas isn’t a step towards evil, it is the sad breaking down of a kid everybody took for granted, shoving him form left to right without giving a thought as to if he could take this much change all at once. Worst is it happens under the eye of everyone and nobody noticed anything.
Adolin doesn’t think what he said and it will haunt him forever. For me, the one thing who “protects” him is the fact he doesn’t relinquish power or anything for himself. It makes practically impossible for a evil entity to use him as there is nothing Odium can give him which he wants. What he wants are the things evil powers can’t grant him.
I’m going to say this on Elhokar’s behalf:
As a socially inept person, I feel for him in this chapter. I don’t necessarily feel for him in the others, but I do here.
I’ve been there, where you feel like you’re trying to memorize The Rules to fit social expectations, and no amount of following them ever seems to give the desired result. Fortunately for me, compared to Elhokar, I have much greater freedom to choose my peer group and largely stuck with people who made allowances and liked me. Also (unlike Elhokar), people never had much reason to surround me and pretend to be friends while stabbing me (or other friends or family) in the back. He knows he’s unfit for the job, but quitting isn’t an option (or not one with a great retirement plan).
I also never had a parent murdered by people I thought were friends and allies not did an assassin tear through all illusion of safety and leave a pile of corpses in their wake (given the high prestige of being the king’s guards and the relative youth associated with the position, what are the odds that many of the men killed that night were people Elhokar knew and had trained with?).
I also never had a sister who went around hiring assassins under the impression that that’s a perfectly reasonably thing to do–a sister who, at one point, was thinking of murdering my spouse because she thought it was in my best interest. I don’t know if Elhokar ever found out about that, but it’s not the sort of discovery you just spring back from. In fact, try to stay a sane, mentally stable, non-paranoid person knowing your big sis may kill people you care about at any moment if she decides that will make your life better.
So, while Elhokar is a jerk, he’s a jerk who is trying and whose best efforts end in failure again and again.
24. Gepeto – Fascinating comments as usual. I disagree that Odium will be unable to use Adolin. He is having a major confidence and identity crisis. From his own perspective, he probably feels he has failed at everything.
– All his failed romances.
– He failed to get to the bottom of Elhokar’s saddle mystery. Sadeas got to the bottom of it.
– When he confronted his Father about the visions, he convinced him to give up as highprince. Only being saved because the visions turned out to be true.
– He failed to protect his Father from Sadeas’ betrayal or save him at the plateau. Kaladin saved him.
– He failed to protect his Father from Szeth. Again Kaladin was the hero.
– His plans to win Shards and defeat Sadeas ultimately failed because he was tricked. Again only being saved by Kaladin.
– His meeting with Eshonai was a failure.
– His triumph over the Parshendi and Eshonai was too late and not enough.
– He was again defeated by Szeth.
– His relationship with Shallan is turned upside down when she saves everyone and becomes a Radiant.
– His father, brother, and Kaladin turn out to be Radiants also.
Adolin no longer knows who he is, who is family is, how the world works, and what his place in it is. He then snaps and murders Sadeas. In a way, Adolin’s identity has been erased and he is somewhat a blank slate. If Odium can’t use Adolin in this confused state, then I don’t think our heroes have much to worry about. Odium’s defeat is assured.
Edit: Oh, and his horse dies.
Austin @@@@@ 12 – I love audio books. That’s how I keep up with my reading. I listen to books during my commute to work and while I’m working out. That said, I would also like to say that I don’t like Graphic Audio. :-( Too much distraction. Too noisy. I went to the website and listened to the samples. I cannot take it. :-(
Perhaps its because “reading” for me has always been “my alone time”. It is also my quiet time. The Graphic Audio is too noisy and too distracting. I like listening to just the voice of the narrator. I love the two readers for the Way of Kings and Words of Radiance. They are also the two who read The Wheel of Time series. Their voices are soothing to me.
Anyway, I just wanted to give you my comment. Enjoy Graphic Audio. :-) But it is not my cup of tea.
Adolin and Elhokar are in a similar situation. Both are surrounded by very successful family members and try to be as good as they are. Adolin tries to follow his father’s example and outwardly seems to be successful, but inside he is insecure and feels he isn’t good enough. He is unable to see his father’s flaws and thinks he is a failure because he isn’t as perfect as Dalinar. Elhokar is unable to be as successful as his father. Nobody seems to teach him how to be a good king, but everbody compares him with his father and finds him lacking. It isn’t really surprising if he gives up and just becomes a whiny drunkard.
This chapter made me realize how much Kaladin has grown. He’s lost Syl and his powers, he can’t protect the people he cares about, and it’s the Weeping – but he doesn’t fall apart or become angry. He deals with his sadness and trusts that he can handle it as he has before. He knows that he shouldn’t mope or wallow in misery, and so he fights back against those tendencies. Essentially, he’s able to cope with the pain in a way he couldn’t back in TWoK. So yeah. I see how some people get frustrated with Kaladin’s arc in WoR and feel like he’s just going through the same character issues over and over again, but I think he has definitely progressed and that you can see it in this chapter. He’s starting to find a balance between giving into despair and wildly and angrily resisting when facing adversity.
Re: Elhokar: Elhokar comes off to me as painfully immature and wishy-washy in virtually every one of his scenes, even in this one despite the small steps towards change…but gosh, I really want him to become a better person. Maybe some of Dalinar’s fondness for him has rubbed off on me – seeing him be immature isn’t painful because it irritates me, but rather because I wish he could do better. And he is in a difficult situation: the son of a great king, surrounded by advisors trying to pull him in many different directions, young and unsure of himself. Unfortunately, he doesn’t have the strength of character or will or perhaps even personality to handle the pressure.
I’m very curious to see if Brandon Sanderson will have Elhokar continue as king, or if he has other plans for him. At this point I have little faith that Elhokar could ever be a good king, but perhaps Sanderson will surprise me, or maybe there’s something else he could do with his life. The whole situation is particularly interesting given that the Dalinar-Elhokar relationship is one of the oldest in Sanderson’s writing (there was an early incarnation of it in Sanderson’s first novel, written when he was 15).
And about the…things Elhokar sees in mirrors: Here’s a random thought. Maybe they were Cryptics guarding Elhokar, and they leave when Kaladin shows up because now there’s a Radiant to watch over the king. I don’t think there’s any evidence for this, but it’s an idea. I must agree with brovery that there’s not enough information at this point to make any firm determinations.
Emphasis mine. That stood out to me when I read it this time even though I’d barely noticed it several times before. Could there be some true basis for the Weeping being a time to contemplate the Almighty?
And while I’m already quoting, this bit cracked me up:
Not this novel! (Yet.)
@2 noblehunter: As far as I understand, Khriss is interested in all kinds of natural phenomena – sometimes flora and fauna, sometimes magic, sometimes physics, &c. She studies the natural world as well as magic in White Sand, and in BoM she’s learning about magic as well as physics, so I’m not sure how much she’s actually switching between subjects. Maybe she’s interested in the Shattered Plains simply because they’re an intriguing part of nature, or maybe she wants to investigate their magical origin, or both. Honestly, if you’re immortal and you have the kind of resources to let you worldhop all over the place to do research, you probably don’t need to stay that focused on a single field to be productive.
Speaking of Khriss, Nazh’s note on the map made me happy not just for the “shadows” clue but also because it revealed that his correspondant was a woman. Female worldhoppers and scientists make me happy! :) I love Khriss and Nazh. I really hope we get to see more of them and their stories…We know we’ll get lots of Hoid someday in Dragonsteel and the fourth Mistborn trilogy, but are we ever going to have stories about Khriss and Nazh beyond the White Sand graphic novels? (Which may very likely not even get to the worldhopping and to Nazh.)
@13 brovery: That is exactly why I ship Kaladin and Shallan. Yes, they have many points of conflict – and I want to see how they would grow to be able to work through them! As you point out, a major aspect of their character development has been learning to deal with baggage, and I think a relationship between them could play into that wonderfully; there’s already a little of that in the chasm scenes. I’ve said before that I’m only rooting for Kaladin and Shallan (rather than a more stable relationship like Adolin/Shallan) because they’re in a book – and a book written by an author who has shown himself to be an optimist and perhaps a romantic who likes to write about good people who have good relationships. I think I can reasonably expect that they would eventually deal with their issues if they got together, and I want to read that story. Huge YMMV, obviously, but that’s where I’m coming from.
@12 Austin, @27 sheiglagh: My sister and I enjoyed the Graphic Audio adaption of Elantris, but that had mostly talking with some music – not too many sound effects. It was cool to see how they try to adapt it, particularly the different accents for characters from different countries. A Graphic Audio dramatization feels very different than a normal audiobook, but both are fun for me, only in different circumstances – my sister and I love plain-vanilla audiobooks for when we’re doing chores, and Graphic Audio for when we’re just sitting around and knitting. Anyways, it’s unfortunate that you’ve had so many issues with Kaladin’s voice actor…we’re considering getting one of the Graphic Audio parts of TWoK, but I’m increasingly unsure if we’d care for it. Thanks for sharing your impression!
sheesania @@@@@ 29: Re: Graphic Audio – Good for you and your sister enjoying Graphic audio books. It is just to distracting for me based on the samples I have listened to in their website.
Speaking of accents, I have been listening to novels by Sarah Noffkee, who is a YA author. In her series about dreamers, the characters are so diverse that the voice actors actually have to have different accents. American, British and French, even a spattering of German. Anyway, the accents are also done in normal audio books. We just don’t hear it in the Stormlight Archive because there is no need. :-)
@29, @30 – I will always add that Gaz’s voice is just all wrong. He also sounds like he’s just reading the lines. Shallan is pretty good and Jasnah has a really good voice actor. It’s funny hearing a lot of these names pronounced. Jasnah has a “Y” sounding name instead of what I thought was “J”
@@@@@28. birgit – I agree that Adolin and Elhokar have similar challenges in living up to their father’s reputations and expectations. I expect Book 3 to open up with Elhokar having found a new sense of purpose and determination, an all Herdazian personal guard, and a palace run by Herdazian housewives. Adolin, on the other hand, has not even begun to address or admit his own personal issues and his new secret. Adolin does not have anyone close to him that have space in their lives at the moment to help him – they have all become Radiants with the weight of the world pressing them.
@25: The problem with Elhokar is the fact he does not try. He makes no effort, he expects to be granted the knowledge, the capacity, the strength to be a good king simply for being the son of one. In his little monologue he states it quite clearly: “Why would God make him king and not give him the aptitudes?”. It is thus clear to me Elhokar never intented to work to better himself: he merely thought it should come naturally. He makes a sharp contrast with hard-working Adolin.
I thus do not see Elhokar as someone who tries and tries and tries only to fail. Renarin is the character who would better befit this description as he tries and tries and tries to be a soldier only to fail spectacularly.
@26: From my perspective, Adolin’s identity crisis was bound to happen sooner or later. Too much of his self-identity has been defined around mimicking his father and not enough on who he truly was. When I read Adolin, I read someone who has put a lot of pressure onto himself and while some of this pressure comes from his father, a large chunk of it comes from himself. Dalinar does not ask of him to fight Szeth nor does he begrudge Adolin for not doing better: Adolin is the one beating himself up for not being up to the task. All this stress he feels afterwards is his own: nobody told him he had failed, but he sees it as a failure nonetheless. So to me, it speaks of a behavorial pattern where Adolin expects himself to never fail, to meet up all standards being placed on him either by his father, by society or by himself. Any talk harboring the danger of challenging those thoughts has been postponed. He isn’t assessing his role into his inaptitude at developping relationships because it would mean looking at himself with a looking glass. Each time he broaches the subject, his mind automatically blocks telling him it is an oddity. So for me, his inability to face/admit/accept the fact he may fail, he can’t be perfect and his role-model certainly isn’t creates the perfect boiling pot for future issues with respect to stress/anxiety. Were he a real-life individual, I’d say he would run into a wall, eventually, hit a burn-out or a mental breakdown. Perhaps not now, but sometimes, in his life. Unfortunately, events in SA has precipated those questioning making him ripe to start forming his own identity. Sadly, the world, his family, the Radiants have open a crevasse right next to him and he trip down. Now, he is falling.
This being said I disagree Adolin is a blank slate after the events of WoR. He may not know who he is or where he is going, but he knows he loves his family and this, this I doubt to see it go away. I also do not think Adolin wants to succeed: he just wants to feel right in his skin, to have self-confidence and self-esteem which he can’t have unless he succeeds. Needing to figure out he is worth a lot even through his mistakes should be one of his arcs.
It may be Odium will try to talk to him, but if I were him, I’d settle on a better, easier prey: Elhokar. I am always surprised nobody ever thinks of him as a vessel to Odium… Why always Adolin? He seems the least plausible choice to me… Elhokar or even Renarin would be better suited because each desire something the evil dude can grant them: power, fame and recognition all things Adolin does not want. I just don’t see what it is Odium could give to Adolin which would be enough to counter-act the love he bears for his family. Weapons or powers or a position as a leader just won’t do it, not with him. Odium can’t make Shallan love Adolin either…
@28: I agree with your commentary stating Adolin sees his father as perfect and tries to emulate this perfection, utterly failing at seeing its flaws or at acknowledging the qualities he does have which differ from his father. This is basically how I read him as well.
@29: My thoughts are Elhokar originally was Dalinar’s only foil character. He currently serves to highlight Dalinar’s weaknesses and flaws when it comes to judging people: Dalinar blinds himself to his nephew’s misgivings out of love for his brother, but by doing so he fails at being guiding. He will have to face this fact if he is to progress towards Radianthood, imho. Adolin, I suspect, adds an additional dimensional by being the one Dalinar goes too hard on in order to absolve himself from his former life. Both characters have a use when it comes to Dalinar.
This being said, there is no knowing how much Brandon has planned to develop Elhokar. As I have stated earlier, I do not personally think he adds enough to the story to earn a larger role which would be required if he were become someone great. The son who fails at meeting his legend of a father’s expectations is an arc we already have going on in Adolin: pushing Elhokar forward would feel redundant, but YMMV.
@33 Gepeto
Though I am very far from an admirer of Elkohar, it is worth pointing out that he wasn’t put in a good position to succeed. Most kings who inherit early do not rule well, and Gavilar probably thought that he had decades before Elkohar would take over. Neither Gavilar nor Navani seem to be particularly in raising their son, and nursemaids and tutors are not substitutes for actual parents.
Whatever else Dalinar might have done right or wrong with Adolin, he didn’t give him everything he wanted on a silver platter. Before his son could command, he had to serve as a common foot soldier. Even small acts of discipline like wearing an army uniform and never drinking on duty teach Adolin to put his job above his personal wishes.
Before Elkohar could try to fix his problems, he has to admit that he has them. It’s not easy for anyone to admit failure, and it’s far harder when you’re surrounded by sycophants and flatterers eager to tell you how wonderful you are. When Dalinar politely reminded Elkohar that he was a child who only survived because of Dalinar’s loyalty, it broke through his attempts at denial. Most of his development in WoR involves accepting that he is a failure as a king and a tyrant; in future books, he will have a chance to learn, though there is no guarantee that he will succeed.
Elkohar is also the product of a society where you have to be good at the job you’re born with. There’s some flexibility in the middle class, but peasants and kings are expected to have the mindset and skills to perform their divinely appointed tasks. If the Almighty actually made kings, why wouldn’t he give them the gifts of charisma, bravery, and wisdom that every good monarchist believes their royal family is magically endowed with?
Now, he’s still a screw-up and an awful, awful king. But there are reasons.
I don’t know how Adolin can come to terms with the fact that he doesn’t always have to be perfect. He’s spent so much of his life trying to be the paragon, and his vices are all tied directly to his virtues. Separating his need to be perfect from his love of the family he needs to be perfect for isn’t easy. Facing the reality that he might fail is painful for someone who can’t stand the idea that people he loves can die when he makes mistakes. He has to do it, but I don’t see a simple way to keep the good parts of himself while rejecting the obsessive need for perfection.
I partly agree with @29 Sheesania about Kaladin’s improved outlook on a difficult life. However, he still can’t seem to rid himself of long-felt prejudices and strong dislikes. Here the king comes calling after his invitation is turned down and pleads for advice on how to lead. Such royal humility should have elicited a more thoughtful and empathetic response than a flat rejection of the man as hopeless. After all, Kaladin is the one who inspired and galvanized a group of hopeless men in his bridge company into becoming effective and caring people. He needed to just impart the lesson that leadership requires actual leading and caring rather than inaction and engaging in frivolities like partying.
If Elhokar’s plea for assistance and advice were an insufficient incentive, Kaladin should have paid more attention to the king’s admission of failure and scapegoating in his extreme reaction to Kaladin’s demand for a vengeance duel with Amaram. This was his attempt to make amends for a bad decision. Moreover, the mention of symbol-headed apparitions lurking in the shadows who disappeared when Kaladin became a palace reqular as head of the king’s guard should have elicited a strong, if unspoken, reaction and questions. Could these be sapient spren who were ‘frightened’ by the presence of a proto-Radiant or Syl? Is Elhokar being considered for Radiancy? Is he much more clever than he seems in detecting something magical about what I was able to do? These intimations should have roused him to attempt to stop the assassination plot without the need for advice from Zahel. Well, at least he finally was aroused to act thinking about the effect of Elhokar’s killing on Dalinar. When he acted in his self-sacrificial guarding attempt, he learned to extend his protection even to those he considered unworthy, if it was right to do so.
So, Kaladin recovers and enhances his Syl generated powers. Whether Elhokar turns his near-death into a learning experience and personal growth remains to be seen. He may learn from Kaladin or attempt to convict him for previously joining the assassination plot. If the former then he may become a Radiant candidate; if t the latter, then he is, indeed, hopeless.
@34: I agree with your commentary. My issues with Elhokar aren’t tied to a misunderstanding of the character (I understand there are reasons for his behavior), they have to do with the fact I don’t find him particularly interesting. In other words, I feel his voice does not add much to the story and the arc where he progressively learns to be a better king makes me yawn. It also resembles too much arcs we are bound to read for characters such as Renarin, the useless boy of a great man who will learn to find his strength. When put on paper, I just do not find any arc involving Elhokar as a more fleshed out characters who grows compelling. As I said earlier, I find it redundant to other arcs we are already getting, but YMMV.
What is Elhokar’s purpose in the story then? He works well as a foil to highlight Dalinar’s problems with guidance. He served to recall how leadership isn’t granted on birth and has nothing to with eye color nor rank: Elhokar may be the son of the conqueror, it does not make him a good king. It makes a nice parallel to Kaladin’s own arc of affirming his leadership despite his low birth. It kind of ruins this particular arc if Elhokar suddenly figures it out… So to me, this arc isn’t the most interesting one with respect to Elhokar: him taking the short-cut to obtain what he wishes is more inline with the actual character not to mention it would be more interesting to read Elhokar as an antagonist than him as yet another Kholin who starts up weak, but grows strong.
Elhokar is not refreshing enough for me to actually want to root for him or to want him to take a more important role into the story which would be required for him to inherit an arc of such magnitude.
Of course, everyone millage may vary when it comes to Elhokar. I am being very honest in my personal disinterest in the character.
Quite a sad bout you have written on Adolin… Indeed, how can he learn to cut himself some loose when lowering his standards may translate into someone he loves dying? How can he work on his weaknesses when they are his strengths and how can he rely on his strengths, as all Radiants have, when they are his weaknesses? I am not sure this is something he can do, on his own without help nor guidance, but where he is going to find it in a world where saving humanity is more important than on individual’s problems?
Does Elkohar’s “I want the capacity to rule, but not the journey to get there” sound like Taravangian to anyone else? Taravangian I didn’t think had a problem with the journey, but are we being set up for Elkohar to visit the Nightwatcher?
That’s an interesting idea. It would be interesting to see someone go to the Nightwatcher during the events of the books: I somewhat resigned myself to the expectation that we would only see that in flashbacks if at all. Unfortunately with how events will unfold I’m not sure Elkohar will even have the chance to go see the Nightwatcher, but it would be very interesting to see.
Elkohar…put me in the camp where I want to see something done with him, which includes the possibility of becoming a KR. I don’t think he needs to be one, but I definitely want someone to address his lack of royal acumen in a non-assassination way. He might not be great but I feel like he could at least become somewhat better at the job, if someone figured out the right way to help him. And like Alice I feel like Elkohar has, by the end of the book, taken at least a couple very tiny baby steps towards that.
And I very much liked the Shipping Wars post this week Alice. It was more analytical which I think can be as fun as just enjoying the parts that reinforce the ship you’re fond of.
And while I miss some of the more sillier shipping parts, those don’t feel very appropriate in the lead-up to the endgame of the book anyways.
Now I’ll just spend the next week preparing my shelter for the avalanche to come when events really start to escalate!
@30 sheiglagh: Ah, different accents are always fun. English is so fascinatingly diverse across the world; it’s cool to see audiobooks making use of that. Though I have to protest that Stormlight could be done with different accents as well to reflect, say, the difference between Veden and Alethi speech, or the Alethi bridgemen from Rock, Lopen, Sigzil and co. It’s certainly not necessary, but it can be a nice “translation” to audio of the difference in their accents implicit in the books.
@35 STBLST: I agree. Kaladin may have grown some, but he still has a ways to go. What with the upcoming assassination attempt, I don’t think he wanted to see Elhokar as sympathetic or humbled; he’s confused by Elhokar’s pleas, and won’t let them change his opinion of the king. Though I suspect Kaladin’s bafflement is also partly because of Elhokar’s description of him as a hero and great, successful leader – it’s a somewhat ironic description at the present moment, even if it’s mostly true overall. At any rate, it provides Kaladin with another (bad) reason to dismiss the change in Elhokar.
There’s been an interesting parallel developing between Kaladin and Elhokar through WoR. They’re both young men and leaders who Dalinar took under his wing, and they both tend to be self-absorbed in their own ways. But the way they respond to their burdens of responsibility is completely different. Kaladin works hard and fights; indeed, he’s had to work hard for pretty much everything he’s managed to accomplish in his life. Once he decides to do something, he stubbornly keeps at it with focus and determination. Elhokar, coddled and privileged, wants things to go his way without his having to do much work. He wavers between goals and avoids facing his problems (with the occasional generally unsuccessful exception). The interesting thing about this scene is that it shows the opposite of their usual approaches to responsibility. At the moment, Kaladin is the one dithering and unsure of how to reconcile his issues with the assassination, while Elhokar is actually trying to face his problems and do something practical to become a better king. Kaladin hasn’t admitted that he was wrong yet; Elhokar has. Later on, Kaladin finally acknowledges that Elhokar is at least trying to be a better king – even if he continues to fail – and then Kaladin is willing to try as well to do what’s right and stop the assassination, even if he will probably fail too. Of course, there’s more to it than that, but looking back at this scene I wonder if those parallels between Elhokar and Kaladin did play a role in Kaladin’s final decision.
@36 Gepeto: I’m not sure Elhokar would need to become a major character for, say, FenrirMoridin’s ideas for him to happen. Brandon Sanderson has managed to do some interesting things with Elhokar so far without his getting a viewpoint or having extensive page time. He already needs to play enough role in the plot, thanks to his position as king, that he could grow quite a bit without having additional viewpoints/pages allocated to him. Take this chapter’s scene, even – it’s primarily there for Kaladin’s arc, but it also develops Elhokar by the way. I’m interested in seeing Elhokar grow, but I suspect I’d be bored too if his arc took up a large part of the story; I’d be happy to see him grow in the background. Others may feel differently, of course, but that’s my take at least.
Oh, and I neglected to say earlier – I enjoyed this week’s Shipping Wars too! I might get around to writing more comments on shipping later, but for now, thanks for the analysis. :)
I didn’t read Elhokar’s comment about being chosen by the Almighty as wanting to succeed without doing the work. Modern people no longer believe in god-given power, but if you accept that a king is chosen by god, it makes sense to expect that god would give him the ability to do the job. Elhokar does try, he just doesn’t know how and always ends up listening to the wrong people. Dalinar tries to keep him from making mistakes, but that undermines his power because Dalinar is seen as the real ruler. If everyone treats him like an ignorant child, that encourages Elhokar to act like a spoiled child.
@39: Fair point. I guess most of my tirades comes from the fact I cannot see, for the life of me, Elhokar as a Radiant. He may be lying to himself and he may lack self-awareness which is akin to Shallan, but I tend to think you need to be more than that to earn the right to bond a spren. While Shallan shared similar characteristics, she used he deceiving powers for the benefit of others. Her endeavor to create a happy lie for her family were rather poignant and she does it again with the deserters. Elhokar does not do those things. He created one lie, the girth saddle incident, but it was self-serving. One character thus try to use her capacities to help others while another one only wants to help himself. For me, this is a massive difference.
Perhaps I am guilty of not addressing the Nahel bond right. It could be the sprens do not care about a given individual’s quality, they simply pick random people who befit very loose criteria. It could be having a cracked soul is more important than being someone worthy. It could very well most new Radiants will end up being individuals I personally consider unworthy, but I’d rather not. I’d rather believe the Radiants are the top-tier of people, being chosen specifically for being such extraordinary human beings. As long as I will believe this, characters such as Elhokar will not be deserving, to my eyes, to join those ranks.
While I cannot believe he can be a Radiant as he is now, I have to admit the possibility he may change. However for it to be convincing and plausible, he would need a greater page count and a larger role. A POV too would probably be required. I do not personally mind Elhokar’s current place in the story. A good foil character will be more than a place-holder to voice thought the main characters can’t have. However invest too much into a foil character and you have Adolin, a character who outgrows his initial role. I don’t see the need for Elhokar to grow much beyond his initial role as I do not personally find him engaging nor sympathetic enough.
Also, as I have said earlier, seeing Elhokar learn to be a good king would not be a plot line I would personally enjoy as it would ruined the idea a good ruler should not be chosen based on his lineage. SA has to show how terrible inherited rule is. I would rather see Elhokar grow into giving leadership to those who can carry it through: this would be a positive arc I could back.
Still, Elhokar as the one who falls to Odium is more interesting because it highlight too many of Dalinar’s weaknesses.
Right now, leadership isn’t Elhokar’s to give. He’s king in name only- whoever’s “in charge” , Dalinar will still end up leading Alethkar. And giving Dalinar the throne is a terrible idea: his focus is going to be on saving the world, not making sure that Alethkar still exists when he’s done saving the world. Personally, I think Elhokar growing to be a counterweight to his uncle, someone to make sure Alethkar doesn’t get lost in the desolation, would be fascinating. I’ve found that fantasy series rarely show us a king’s development- they’re either brilliant from the start, or they’re awful and end up dead. The closest to a king learning to be king I’ve read is( spoilers for mistborn) Elend in Mistborn, and that kinda felt like cheating given he was basically being tutored in how to be king (end of spoilers) so it would be something more original than Fantasy King is Useles And Evil, and I’d get a far greater satisfaction from watching Elhokar learn to govern through and with the help of the other highprinces than watch Dalinar wonder whether he should kill his odium infected nephew or not. Of course I (a) am British and therefore have a natural affinity for monarchies (and if Elhokar wants to launch a constitutional monarchy that’d be cool, but maybe not in the middle of a desolation because that is not the best time to try and figure out general elections), also (b) am as fond of Elhokar as you seem to be of Adolin. And therefore averse to the idea of him being used to point out that Dalinar isn’t a 100% Brilliant person, which…we know already , tbh. Sanderson hasn’t exactly made it a secret that Dalinar has flaws.
(I think that;s the longest comment I’ve ever made. Oops. Sorry)
@42: Seeing constitutional monarchy succeed simply because the Kholins are such outstanding human beings they even managed to turn their weakest link into a successful leader is a story arc I do not personally find engaging. I also believe it makes a better story arc for Elhokar to admit he just isn’t the right person to rule: it shows humility and growth. By doing so he wouldn’t be giving the throne to Dalinar: it isn’t his to give, you are right about this, but he could work towards building a leadership institute where people are chosen to lead based on capacities and not birth. For my part, I find it a much better story arc for him then having, yet another character, who gets more powerful. Power doesn’t always have to do with position and by rejecting traditional power, Elhokar would only grow stronger though not in the traditional sense. Who knows, he may finally be allowed to become a soldier and to prove his worth: he may finally be happy.
For the rest, well, Elhokar is a foil character, just like Adolin. His role into the story is to highlight conflicts within Dalinar and Kaladin which is pretty much the same role as Adolin. While I do not expect to read a lot coming from Adolin, a few chapters per book and, if I am lucky, a very very small arc, which isn’t much: I expect to read even less coming from Elhokar. Both characters have been created for the same purposes and, imho, Elhokar transforming himself into a leader would require him to move up the ladder of characters. Considering how many we have, I’d say it is unlikely.
If Elhokar remains a good character, I’d say him learning to become humble requires less of a 180 degrees flip than him acquiring the leadership skills he lacks. One transformation can befit into a third person’s perspective or into an occasional POV, the other one would require serious writing, but YMMV.
sheesania @@@@@ 39 – Re accents in a fantasy series – It is really hard to decide what accent to use in a fantasy series like the Stormlight Archive. Case in point, Square Enix did it in Final Fantasy 12 which Final Fantasy fans considered as very political and almost like Star Wars. That said, the Empire rules the world in FF12. And guess what, the people from the Empire have British accent. LOL Don’t get me wrong. I loved it. In fact, my favorite character in that game is Balthier who happens to be from the empire. :-) The people of Dalmasca, the ones fighting for their freedom have American accents. LOL And of course, the wild cards in the game (forgot his name) has a French accent. LOL I loved playing FF12 though it is not my favorite in the Final Fantasy series.
That said, I cannot help but notice that with the accents so familiar, there is a certain typecasting. But before people go up in arms about the typecasting, I would like to add that the bad guys in FF12 is not the Empire but the gods, a group of intelligent beings who decided that they want to rule that world in absentia. I don’t want to go through the whole story here because that is not the point.
My point is, if the voice actors decide to use accents in Stormlight Archive, what will they use? Will the Alethi have British accents? Will Adolin and Renarin be the Heir and the Spare and speak like Prince William and Prince Harry?
Will Shallan have a Scottish accent or an Irish accent? Or will she be from Norway or Sweden? Or Russian? Or will she be an American from the midwest in a small town. Or will she be from the American south with their lilting accent. Or even from Texas?
What about Kaladin? Will he have a Canadian accent since obviously, he is part of the Alethi empire. Or even Australian? Or will he have a British working class accent? Because obviously, the ruling Alethi princes will have the posh accent. LOL
Will Rock be from the Andes and sound Hispanic? What I’m saying is that if we use accents that we know, there will be typecasting.
I’m happy with the voice actors in the Stormlight Archive. I like the neutral accent because they are neutral. The changes in the voice is because of the character not because of the region they come from.
On the other hand, I would love to have Adolin speak in a posh British accent. LOL And Shallan in a non-British accent just to show how different they are. Since I’m from Texas, it will be so funny for me if Shallan says y’all. LOL
Anyway, this is really off topic. But, your comment and Austin’s just made me think how it will be if we put accents in the characters.
Re: Elhokar as a possible Radiant
I actually don’t think that the spren around Elhokar were Odium spren. I’m in the group that thinks that they are Cryptics. It made sense to me that Cryptics would leave when Kaladin showed up because Cryptics and Honor Spren don’t get along.
I do think that Elhokar has sometimes shown the ability to see the situations that he in both as it is and as it is not. Which is something that I think Cryptics would like and it would attract them. He’s good at lying to himself, for sure, and he has on occasion (not often enough in my opinion but on occasion) shown the ability to actually see through a number of Alethi political schemes. His problem is that he seems to lack the imagination to find away to use those political schemes to get what he wants done. Maybe because he doesn’t really know what he wants done. As he said he doesn’t really have the capacity to rule well. He doesn’t know or even seem to have an idea of what needs to be done for the good of the kingdom and seems content to stick to the status quo instead of improving them. I felt like the Cryptics where interested in him but not interested enough to bond him. He was just not good enough.
I like the idea that Cryptics just keep an eye out on all the rulers and major political players. It makes sense to me. I wonder if Travangian or any of the other rulers saw them as well and it just something you didn’t talk about.
Re Graphic Audio
I didn’t even know that they were doing this. Can someone tell me if these are abridged or if they are full book? It sounds interesting.
kei_rin at 45 – Re: Graphic Audio – I believe they do the full version, i.e., unabridged. Here’s the link just in case you want to do some research.
http://www.graphicaudio.net/
The thing with the Cryptics supposedly hanging around Taravangian is, though, that IIRC Shallan didn’t detect any of them after transforming that goblet into blood and thus unknowingly strengthening her bond with Pattern. So, were they really observing the king, or were they watching Shallan and helping Pattern to re-connect?
As to Elokhar and general visibility of Cryptics, while after Shallan called him to her on the ship, Pattern couldn’t make himself wholly invisible again, he is now more in the physical plane than the unbonded Cryptics, no? Not even Shallan could see those directly in WoK, after all, and nobody else could detect them at all, presumably. And she didn’t detect anything unusual about Elokhar, but then, she didn’t see much of him and the spren haunting him were ostensibly “frightened away” by Kaladin and Syl.
Personally, I also don’t want for Elokhar to become a Radiant, because _all_ Kholins being chosen for the bond, no matter how seemingly inauspicious their character and personality would be too much, IMHO. Also, I strongly feel that either the king or Adolin have to die at some point, and I’d rather it was the former. We can have a young king coming into his own with the latter and it would be more interesting, IMHO, because he is already a better developed character. And as Gepeto pointed out, an “unlikely Radiant” angle is already covered by Renarin. Somebody has to fail even in this remarkable family…
But the idea that hereditary leadership is the worst and that they can afford to radically change their social structure while in the middle of dealing with impending Desolation makes no sense to me either. I mean, even a cursory look at the history of the 20th century shows that non-hereditary despots are often/usually far worse than the hereditary ones they replaced, and that even in more or less democratic societies qualities/skills needed to get power are often quite different from those required to rule competently. And that you can’t successfully jump from feodalism to modern democracy while ommitting all the necessary developement steps in-between.
@47: I agree with this post except for perhaps the last paragraph. Considering their whole world is about to enter a severe conflict which will result in having the majority of their population die, they may not afford to keep on promoting segregation based on either eye color or birth right. Need may surpass tradition and ingrained mentality as they will have to put the best people into key positions, no matter their credentials. Already, a rebellion is brewing in Kholinar: it isn’t thus too far-fetched to think they may evolve, in the next few books, into a society who may accept a non-hereditary leader.This being said, pushing forward this idea was an endeavor to find a story arc I would personally be able to enjoy with respect to Elhokar.
As for the “all Kholins can’t be Radiant” argument, I’d say it is a debatable one. I have seen used often enough for Adolin, I have a hard time using it for another character. My personal motto has always been if someone is deserving, then he should get his shot independently of the number of already existing Radiants within his family. If I use it for Adolin, I have to use it for Elhokar. I do however agree having the entire Kholin family being Radiants seem an uninteresting avenue just as I agree someone has to fail… though come to think of it, failure is already being broached with Adolin. He is the Kholin who has failed, spectacularly more so than Elhokar because he killed using his own hands instead of having people die out of neglect and incompetence. We could argue there is little difference in between the two, but the fact remains the fault always falls on the one with the bloody hands: those who hire the assassins are never punished nor seen for what they are.
So to me Adolin is the failure of house Kholin: the one who had everything to succeed and yet, he failed. Elhokar is more reminiscent of Renarin posing as yet another unsuitable Kholin over-shadowed by a famous father and a perfect sibling. My favorite arc for him remains the one where he either falls prey to Odium (someone has to, it seems impossible Odium would not try at grappling to the leading elements of his enemies) or the one where he gives up kingship and finds a better use for himself. Heroic sacrifice would also do it. So pretty much anything besides him growing into a great king or him becoming a Radiant.
I too have felt either Elhokar or Adolin had to die… It seems morbid to think of it in such terms, but I have had the same feelings. I am not sure I like Adolin as king though. Also I have to wonder, how young much a king be to be considered a “young king”? Elhokar may have reached the throne at a very young age, he has been holding it for 6 years. Shouldn’t 6 years be enough for Elhokar to move from inexperienced to experienced? Can he still be considered as a young inexperienced king? I have to ask.
@44 sheiglagh: Argh, that’s always the problem. On the one hand, giving accents to characters in an audiobook can make the story richer and also better reflect the actual differences in accent that the characters have. Shallan and Adolin do canonically have different accents, so if you’re going for a full dramatization ala Graphic Audio anyways, why not reflect that in your adaptation? And for a linguistics nerd like me, it’s just fun to see the variety of English reflected in my fantasy. But on the other hand, yes, it is typecasting and it can be done quite offensively. And it can be distracting in a more straightforward audiobook like the Kramer/Reading SA productions.
I, at least, thought the Graphic Audio dramatization of Elantris did a good job picking accents. Since Teod and Arelon are two different countries but speak the same language, they gave the Teoish characters British accents and the Arelish characters American accents. Then people from other countries nearby who speak different languages got various European accents. It was a nice way to aurally signal how these countries and their languages were related to each other. SA is much more complicated, however, since there are more peoples involved, not to mention class differences (which played very little role in Elantris). But I feel like there would be some way to use accents that would be respectful and celebrate different varieties of English, not just use them to say, “Hey, Shallan has a Scottish accent, isn’t it cute?”
Anyways. Like I said, I’m a linguistics nerd, I may be fussing over this far more than most people would. :)
@45 kei_rin: The Graphic Audio dramatizations are essentially unabridged. They take out dialog tags and other bits that they consider superfluous with their voice acting and sound effects (e.g. a door being closed). But occasionally my sister and I have spotted them cutting other small pieces for no evident reason. It’s not a large-scale abridgement, though; we’ve never noticed them cutting whole scenes. This is just from listening to the Elantris and Well of Ascension dramatizations, however. I can’t speak for the Graphic Audio productions of Warbreaker, TWoK, &c.
@48, Elhokar may have been sitting on the throne for six years, but there’s no indication that either Dalinar or Sadeas confined themselves to the roles of advisor only and let him be king. For example, neither bothering to tell Elhokar about the way they’re manouvering that Highprince in to paying his taxes in WoK- and all right, so Sadeas claims that Elhokar just isn’t interested, but how much do you trust Sadeas, especially when it would benefit his I-want-to-rule-the-world complex to have a weak King on the throne of Roshar’s most powerful nation?
In coming to ask Kaladin for help, Elhokar has already shown one aspect of a good king: he’s willing to swallow his pride and look for help/advice. The constitutional monarchy thing I mentioned earlier was kind of a joke because Alethkar isn’t anywhere near that point yet- they haven’t even had a successful monarchy for two generations- but i don’t see why even the weak link in the Kholinar household can’t look at how successfully the strongest link is doing asking other highprinces their opinions, and then start copying him. And if all Elhokar manages to do in his reign is listen to all ten highprinces air their views about how they ought to cope with a situation before making a descision for himself, then he’ll have become a stronger king for it.
@@@@@ 49 – Those Teoish accents are supposed to be British?!
O…k…
On accents, I’d like to point out some accents are a nightmare to understand for non-English native speakers. I can understand normal American, Canadian, British, but I need subtitles for Irish, Scottish, Texan and probably Australian as well. Texan is probably the worst: I just don’t understand what they say at all. Nothing. Asian speaking English often are another nightmare unless they English is very, very good. I would never buy nor listen to an audio book if it has “non standard” accents in it.
@50: There is no indications neither Sadeas nor Dalinar tried to keep Elhokar better informed either. Kaladin went from boy studying surgery in a small village to Captain of the Royal Guard having a 1000 men under him in less than 6 years and nobody stood there to train him specifically. Elhokar had all the res sources in the world: 6 years was enough for him to improve, but it doesn’t appear as if he did. Granted, we do not know this either, so if improvements there was, it had to be meager.
Elhokar asks Kaladin for help at having people see him as a hero: he does not ask help on how to rule better, how to be better for his people, he asks it so he could be seen as better. It is all about how people view him. To me this small distinction makes all the difference. Elhokar is self-centered: there is not one instance where he is seen caring or thinking about others. He admits he made mistakes, but he hasn’t try to fix them. He just brushed them away and hopes he won’t make another one without actually making the exercise to understand why he made one to begin with.
Listening to the 10 Highprinces before making a decision is so trivial it seems unthinkable he hasn’t thought of it in 6 years. My guess is he just does not want to listen, he wants to impose. This probably comes from his uncle and father who ruled by the sheer force of their presence, thus giving him a bad example of how it should be done. It could be he will learn as much, granted. I agree it wouldn’t be far-fetched for him to do so.
Another aspect of Elhokar we haven’t talked about is alcoholism. Sure being drunk in one scene does not make one an alcoholism, but I would like to point out it has been noted by other characters, mostly Adolin, how much Elhokar liked to drink. I didn’t note all the relevant passages, but there are quite a few where Adolin remarks the king is drinking again, the king finished the pitcher of violet wine, etc. Combined with young Dalinar former problems with alcohol, it seems very plausible Elhokar indeed is… alcoholic and very temperamental. I know this one will sound strange to many, but I keep thinking Elhokar is the one who inherited most of the Blackthorn’s characteristics. Had Elhokar evolved in a world where he was allowed to war, wouldn’t he have turned like his uncle? He does have the same angry “do not make fun of me” streak, he does have the same issues with alcohol, he is centered on himself and his personal needs… Am I the only one who makes this link?
This being said, if I am right, we already have a reformed Blachthorn in Dalinar, do we need another? Wouldn’t it be more realistic to read a character who doesn’t find a way out of those problems? Because the one characteristic Dalinar has which helped him overcome his issues is rigidity and stubbornness: namely his ability to follow strict rules. Elhokar does not seem to have it.
It reinforces again Elhokar’s role as a foil and/or a parallel character for either Dalinar/Kaladin more than a character through which drama will happen. Looking at the Kholin family, each seem to have its role within the story:
Dalinar: Reformed practically mindless brute, former alcoholic who upon facing tragedy found the strength to improve his life. He became a better man, but he retains the tendency to act as a tyrant as well as rigidity combined with an inability to make compromises. Dalinar strikes to be honorable which forces him to blind his eyes towards Elhokar’s faults. In other words, if Dalinar were to admit his nephew was unsuited for ruling, he would need to remove him to remain honorable, but by doing so he would act dishonorably by breaking his unsaid word to his brother. Or something along those lines, in any advent, Elhokar serves to highlight conflict within Dalinar. Without him, we wouldn’t get it. Most of the actions happens because Dalinar made a decision: without him, no climaxes even if he does not take an active part in them.
Navani: A minor POV character who is useful to have for the insight on fabrial making she gives us, the readers. She does not need to be fleshed out more than she currently is, her purposes in the story appear to say out loud what other characters would not say: it is through her we learn bits about Shshshshsh. We are getting her backstory through Dalinar’s flashbacks, but she seems unlikely to grow in importance. Her current role in the story appears satisfactory.
Jasnah: Heretic rational scholar who served, in WoK, to give us bits and bouts about the various philosophical currents across Roshar as well as making our characters find out about the Desolation, the Voidbringers. Her research enabled Shallan to find Urithiru. She is likely to be the Shallan of the second half (main female scholar character while Lift will be the Kaladin).
Renarin: Weak sick kid of house Kholin who feels useless, but is suddenly granted super powers. He is an unlikely choice for a Radiant as many readers have trouble seeing why sprens would even consider him. He is not seen doing much on screen, so we have to assume he did much off-screen. The weak unsuitable Radiant angle is being broached with him in a better way than Elhokar would mostly because Renarin has a higher sympathy capital with the readers. He comes across as eager and generous which are characteristics he shares with his brother. His future role is unclear, but we know he is extremely important as the author has announced having massive plans for him.
Adolin: Foil character for Dalinar’s character development back in WoK. He was created to externalize Dalinar’s inner dilemma in order to make the story more active as the original draft came across as boring. No other character than him was available to provide the same viewpoint: Elhokar already had another use and Renarin was unsuitable not to mention he isn’t meant to be a foil. The author ended up liking the character, so he gave him more to chew on in the second book making his small arc accumulate in him murdering Sadeas… This arc is highly likely to merge with Dalinar serving once again as a foil to help the main character figuring how to evolve. He may end up being the “Good Perfect Boy” who falls hard which isn’t an arc we currently have with other characters. Readers do love a good Fall Arc. Adolin also serves to give the readers insight on dueling and battles which no other character is currently positioned to offer: without him there would be no active viewpoint character in those battles. Seeing WoR ending climaxes only through Dalinar/Kaladin eyes would have been boring: Adolin brings a lot to this sequence (IMHO he has the best bouts, but I am biased, so YMMV). Adolin may or may not have a small arc to call his own, outside the main characters, but of all characters, his status is the most uncertain.
Elhokar: A foil character to Dalinar and later on to Kaladin. Dalinar’s weaknesses are highlighted through Elhokar. He makes a parallel to young Dalinar destructive behavior making it a family thing as opposed as a one time event. This chapter we have just read was not really about him, but about Kaladin. The tirade helped Kaladin find his path towards his next oath. He hasn’t provide us, the readers, any additional information. The political angle of dealing with the Highprince is broached with Dalinar, the fighting/dueling is broached with Adolin, the drunken angry aspect is broached through young Dalinar, the useless low self-esteemed is broached through Renarin… so if the author wants to push forward Elhokar, he will have to find a new angle for him, one we are currently not seeing, one to call his own. His future in the story is unsure: Brandon never stated anything particular about him and him not being a POV character limits the possibility, unless he is this mystery novella character, but I doubt so. It seems more probable the novella is about someone who isn’t based at Urithiru, so Rysn perhaps? Readers love Rysn and she has a bit of things going on right now which are interesting.
So to me, one his own, Elhokar is not bringing anything new to the story we aren’t getting through the already established characters. Of course simply because he hasn’t done it yet does not mean he can’t do it in the future: this is entirely up to the author. For my part, I am satisfied with his current role as a foil into the story as a foil does not have to bring new aspects, he only has to help the main progress. If he is to move from his foil position, then I do think Brandon would have to find something more innovative for him than simply becoming a wise king or a Radiant.
Of course, I am being very honest here and everyone millage may very. I know there are readers who wish to read more of Elhokar. While I do not personally see the need for it, I am certainly not against the idea, providing he ends up bringing an interesting aspect to the story.
@46 and 49
Thanks for the information and the link for the graphic audio books.
Speaking of accents…I just got to part 2 of TWoK on Graphic Audio and so far the Alethi sound non-accented, i.e. American. Same goes for Shallan and her family. They gave Thaylens an Indian accent, which makes for interesting listening. Haven’t heard Rock or Lopen yet, so it should be interesting where they go with that.
Hi Alice! I found this reread way too long after it started, and have been trying to catch up before it ended, and whew, I just made it! Wanted to let you know how much I’ve enjoyed your discussions! I know I missed more juicy goodies in the comments sections I barely touched, but going back through will at least give me something to read while pining for SA3. So, forgive me if it’s already been hashed out, (and for being so off topic from the chapter) but I’ve really been wondering if anyone knows why Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher to ask for his boon? How did he know what was coming? Could he have gotten the Honor visions before Dalinar? Or did I miss something obvious?
@55
Hi there Traveler! Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I think that it was heavily implied that Taravangian knew from Gavilar that final desolation was going to be coming. It’s not clear if he knew about what was coming before he went to the Nightwatcher but that is what makes the most sense. He asked for capacity to save mankind, that would imply that he knew that man kind needed saving. I don’t think there is anything to indicate that Taravangian also got the visions that Dalinar had. Maybe if he had gotten those vision he wouldn’t have gone to Nightwatcher. Who knows.
I originally thought that Gavilar also had the same visions that Dalinar had but I now think that Gavilar just got wrapped up in the Son of Honor cult and was independently trying to bring out a desolation in order to bring power back to the Vorin church. It makes sense to me that if Taravangian knew that someone was going to bring about a desolation he might try to find a way mitigate the damage from it. In the Diagram Taravangian says:
Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes… (Chapter 83)
I think he was talking about the Sons of Honor being fools trying to bring the desolation about because it was going to be coming anyway.
Traveler @55 – Welcome! Glad you’ve been enjoying it, and that you caught up… just in time for the Avalanche to begin. (I’m Alice, by the way.)
There’s just a whole lot we don’t know about Taravangian and his visit to the Nightwatcher. What we do know is largely summed up here:
This strongly implies that:
1) Gavilar saw the same visions Dalinar saw, or at least some of them; the information is too similar to think otherwise, IMO. He told Taravangian about them the night he was assassinated, and Taravangian appears to have been working on the project since then.
2) Taravangian’s visit to the Nightwatcher was after Gavilar’s murder, and a direct attempt to find a way to stop what Gavilar had told him was coming. This is especially strong when combined with his request for “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.”
We don’t know exactly when he went to the Nightwatcher, or when the Diagram was written, but we know it was long enough ago that they have observed some deviations between what it predicted and what really happened. We also know that he’s been using “Death Rattles,” which appear to be something that happens when one of the Unmade is around, to augment the information in the Diagram. How accurately those are being interpreted, or how reliable they are… we don’t know.
Not sure how much that helps, but it’s always interesting to ponder on these things!
No time to read through all the comments of apologizes if this has already been brought up but – we should be honest in the capitalistic world we live in even IRL the status of a match matters, and that is ok. Marriage has always been an economic thing to some extent. Even the marriage between the lawyer and the doctor (both on the public service rather than money end of the spectrum on those jobs) was somewhat economic as combined they could make enough money to survive and continue public service – alone they could not. This is true while it is also true I had never seen two people more in love with each other (the vows were also very millennial in ways that would make people here happy – the bride kissed the groom. The husband vowed to introduce their children to Rushdie before Ronald McDonald but to love them even if they succumbed to dead eyed American capitalism). As well boy do I have a different view of Taravangian. Yes he is ultilitarian in philosophy and likely Sanderson’s argument against utilitarianism as straight utilitarianism is very hard to combine with any Religious philosophy. But, if the survival of the species was at stake, *shrug* methods like his might be necessary.
I like to think he can eventually learn to moderate his lack of compassion and team up with MC group. But that is unlikely to happen given Sanderson is certainly placing him more to the antagonist side. I also definitly disagree that intelligence and compassion are inversely related. I mean look at voting patterns in America. It is the uneducated/unintelligent (yes not the same but are related things) that are the strongest Republicans and though it is simplistic to say Republicans are not compassionate, even as a republican, I admit Democrats are more so (not having a problem with high taxes for handouts means you are). What you mean I think is not compassionate per se but willing to sacrifice the few to save the many. Intelligence could very well lead to being more utilitarian as being more intelligent generally means having more of an ability to extrapolate/see the larger picture. This could likely lead to an increase in utilitarianism.
dwcole @58 – re: your first paragraph… I haven’t an earthly what you’re talking about, so I can’t really respond to that.
Re: your second, no one has claimed that there is a generalized inverse relationship between intelligence and compassion, because there isn’t. In Taravangian’s gifts from the Nightwatcher, however, that relationship is a documented fact. RL examples are irrelevant to that discussion. And I categorically refuse to get into RL political debates here.
Glad I’m not the only one who didn’t understand @58 first paragraph :)
@56 and @57, thanks! It’s interesting how many people Gavilar talked to about his visions (Amaram, Taravangian, the Parshendi, who else?) and how they each had very different responses to it, each in their own way trying to “save the world”. Does it seem that he and Amaram were already involved with the Sons of Honor before the visions, and the visions lent rationale to their desire to return the Heralds? Or did Amaram get involved with them because of the visions? I suppose the former sounds more likely, as Gavilar told Eshonai that he wanted to return their gods. But, unless he was secretly an utterly horrible human being, why would he ever want to do that? He saw in the visions the destruction caused in previous Desolations, which couldn’t be prevented even by the Heralds. I’m assuming he got the visions because he could tune in to the “Honor” station because he had the makings of a Bondsmith, but that doesn’t jive for me with his willingness to bring on a Desolation. And anyway, the visions don’t ever implicate the Parshendi as Voidbringers, so where’d Gavilar get that info anyway? Unless he thought that returning their gods would result in something very different than what the Parshendi thought? Ack, writing this out just makes me feel even more confused. Can’t wait to read more about The Diagram and the all the stuff Taravangian seems to know so much about!
dwcole @58: You said It is the uneducated/unintelligent (yes not the same but are related things) that are the strongest Republicans” What support do you have for that statement? A lot of fiscally conservative individuals are well educated and quite intelligent. With respect to cultural conservatives (another big block who typically identifies with the Republican party), I do not think it is fair to call them uneducated/unintelligent. While I may not agree with them politically (I consider myself to be a moderate Democrat), I cannot deny that they are intelligent (at least those whom I hear on the talk show circuit.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I don’t want the moderators to come in and remove comments, but I refuse to have a “Republicans vs. Democrats” debate on this reread. Stereotypes of RL political parties are not relevant here. If you would like to discuss the subject, please use your message boxes and take it off this thread.
Agh! I had a whole comment typed out and lost it via a random click of the mouse. Sigh… Let’s try this again.
This whole thread made me revisit the audible books. Kate Reading and Michael Kramer are both great narrators. They each read with a trained voice of culture. Accents are suppressed, unless they bring it out deliberately to highlight a character’s voice. And they try to give the different cultures, various accents. It helps that Brandon is making a real effort to distinguish the different cultures by using different word patterns and word choices. Nothing as extreme as Yoda’s word patterns – but Rock and Lopen and Shallan each speak differently from each other and the others around them. The idioms they use are distinct.
I’ll admit, I like Kramer’s voice a bit better. But I’ve also been hearing it more due to Mistborn Era 1 & 2. Adolin’s name also caught me off guard. I say it “Add-o-lin”, so to hear it “Aid-o-lin” trips me up.
Elkohar just sounds whiny. But this chapter reminds of several things. One the quote: The son of a great man is rarely great himself. The second is about his education. I know the Vorin Kingdoms don’t have a Dale Carnegie School of Leadership – but surely there is a tradition of statecraft the Highprinces are taught? Beyond military strategy? But considering the range in skills of the Highprinces we see on screen, I’m thinking too much with a modern mindset. Not the “divine right of kings” mindset of centuries past. Where was Navani in educating her youngest child? We know boys are trained differently, but surely the mother has a responsibility to educate both children? I must remember to ask this question next time I’m able to ask Brandon or Peter.
Different note:
“Unite them!” Oh the deaths this statement has caused.
@55: Hello! Glad you are getting to join us. I remember finally catching up to the WoT reread. :-D Good times.
@63: Ditto that wish.
@58 &62: Please let’s not bring in RL American politics to this read. Many on this page are not Americans. There are other places to have those types of debates. And many of us try really hard to not let the comments drift that direction. Even using historical examples of some related matters, I think about three times before posting. Modern stuff I am not touching, especially when it’s the perception & generalization of people, vs. facts about past actions.
Rorschach Test:
What do you see in the map of the Shattered Plains?
I see:
1) Isaac having either a lot of fun or a breakdown. Has anyone asked him that yet?
2) Anchors in the little sections
3) A skull topped with the crescent moon horns
The talk of politics reminds me that smart people can be really good at arguing themselves into error. Logic being the ability to be wrong with confidence. Which raises the question if there was something supernatural in the Diagram or if if it’s all based on what Taravangian knew at the time? If it is so limited, does Taravangian know it?
ETA: @66 I see skulls of monsters everywhere. Zerg-like or maybe chasmfiends.
Braid Tug and Noblehunter @@@@@ 66 and @@@@@ 67 – Argh… now I feel silly because I see a jellyfish when I look at the map of the Shattered Plains. How silly can that be?
Hey,
I see a snowflake on a dark background :)
(maybe due in part to the fact that it’s been snowing here today)
I see big beetles with patterned shells and various other crawly things. Which seems kinda world-appropriate, actually.
I sympathize with Gepeto’s extensive efforts to analyze and possibly rewrite Sanderson’s characters in SA. I have felt similarly about the Lord of the Rings (LOTR) film trilogy by Peter Jackson and co. While I would not consider ‘retouching’ the original by Tolkien, I would have liked to shift scenes from the film trilogy to give them, in my opinion, more cogency. For example, while the prologue to the Fellowship (FOTR) film is masterfully narrated by Galadriel, it could have been expanded to include a very brief mention of the context of Morgoth, Sauron, and the Numenorian exiles. The scene in the Towers film (TTT) of the sad and tense parting between Aragorn and his beloved Arwen should have followed the similar scene between Aragorn and her father in FOTR. The prelude to TTT should have been the Sméagol/Gollum story which is the prelude to the Return film (ROTK). The battle between Gandalf and the Balrog that is the prelude to TTT should have been placed later in the film when Gandalf, who was believed to be dead, reveals himself to Aragorn and co. The prelude to ROTK should have been the attempted journey of Arwen away from Middle Earth and her return, instead of the Sméagol/Gollum story. The return of Arwen and the reforging of the shattered sword of kings could then have been followed by the scene where Gandalf, Aragorn, and co. ride toward Orthanc. I wished that I had access to an extended version of the films that would have allowed such editing. However, I didn’t wish to obtain pirated copies missing the copyright restrictions. Besides moral qualms – although I have bought all the versions of the films, I suspect some ‘illegal’ sites of slipping in a virus together with the pirated material. In any case, my aside comments about another fantasy work is meant to convey my sympathy for a certain obsession with both a story and the feeling that I could improve on it. Let’s wait, however, to see what a master storyteller like Brandon does with his creation.
@71: I do not believe I have strive to rewrite the characters: I try to analyse them at best of my knowledge. The tangential I sometimes take are endeavors at seeing what may be if I bother to flip my perceptions. I may be more bold in it than most readers as I tend to extrapolate.
We are all different. Speculating, extrapolating and having favorites is part of my reading experience and I salute authors who managed to drag me deep enough in their stories for me to actually wish to do it. Others read it as a sign of disrespect, but for me it is the opposite: caring enough for a story to want to engage in discussion is very rare.
Ah LoTR… For my part, I spent a great deal of time wishing Boromir had not die as I found him a more interesting character than Aragorn. I do not know what kind of story it would have made, but it was one I sincerely wish it was possible to read. How many story arcs have I invented in my head? I have lost the count. It may be the stories in my head aren’t as good, but they tackle with characters aspects I am personally found of. It seems to be my fate as every book able to draw passion in me have me prefer anyone else but the main protagonist. I have since theorized the generic fantasy hero simply does not appeal to me, but neither do real-life inspired stories, so tough luck.
Thank you for your sympathy and thank you for understanding I meant no disrespect. I simply am me.
@@@@@ 71 – The issue with LOTR and the Numenorian exiles context you’re after (which I agree would have been a nice way to go with the prologue) is that then you’re in Silmarillion territory, the copyright for which is going to have to be pried out of Christopher Tolkien’s cold dead hands. There’s a reason Gandalf claimed he couldn’t quite remember the names of the blue wizards in one of the Hobbit films, and it’s that they’re only named in works to which Christopher Tolkien still has the copyright.
I’m generally a fan of Graphic Audio, but agree with those who think Kal’s voice in just weird/wrong. To anyone who thinks any of the actors in it are ever doing British accents, I’ll just say I’ve never had that impression (apart from occasionally wondering whether an accent is supposed to be Scottish or Irish, or whether no-one really cares because technically it’s not supposed to be either…).
I love Michael Kramer as a reader, I’m less a fan of Kate Reading partially because sometimes her rhythm goes all weird (particularly in some of the duller WoT books) which throws me out of the narrative, partly because she once did a Pride and Prejudice audiobook that sounds to my Hertfordshire-raised ears like nails on a blackboard. I’m prepared to put up with Kate Reading doing female PoVs to get Michael Kramer doing the males. Does anyone know why Kate Reading didn’t do any of the Mistborn reading? Was it just not worth it with Vin as the only major female PoV?
I listened to the Graphic Audio WoK and Kaladin sounds like Channing Tatum. I got used to it after a while, but I cannot help but picture him as Channing. The Alethis have an accent that is somewhere in between American and British accents. Their R’s are a lot softer than a true American accent, but they are still pronouncing them more than a British RP speaker would. It sounds like some weird fusion or even an Irish accent at times.
And I lol’d at Kabsal having a Spanish accent. I forgot that he was supposed to be ethnically Herdazian.
Re: Gavilar and his visions: Hang on. Do we actually know that Gavilar told the Parshendi about his visions? I was under the impression that he’d just mentioned a few things about his goals to them that made them think he’d return their gods, or that maybe they deduced it somehow from how he was acting. Is there something I missed that indicates he actually told them about the visions?
As for the Shattered Plains, each large segment looks to me like two women holding up bulls with odd curved horns, like in ancient Mesopotamian art or something along that line of things. The small segments…well, I suddenly noticed two eyes, a nose, and a smile that looks like a grinning teddy bear, and now I can’t unsee it. Plus he has an anchor on his stomach.
@51 Muswell: It’s been a while since I listened to the dramatization, and there’s a good chance that I’m judging wrong anyways. My main point is that for the two countries that speak the same language, the adapters chose two closely related families of accents. Then for countries with more distantly related languages, they chose more foreign accents.
sheesania @75 – No, we don’t know if Gavilar told the Parshendi about the visions. He told them something, but we really don’t know what. All we have is this quote from Eshonai:
Apparently he told the Parshendi something of what he was expecting to happen – enough, anyway, that they were able to determine that he expected the return of the Voidbringers – and it seems he gave them to understand that he himself would cause those things to happen. In any case, what he told them made them think that perhaps if he were stopped, the return of their gods might also be stopped.
@74 Listener – did Kabsal sound like Antonio Banderas to you? I swore I was listening to one of the Shrek movies lol.
Re: Audiobooks and accents
As much as I love the audiobooks there is one thing related to the accents that always bugs me when I here it. Kate Reading changes the accents of the Thaylen changed with WoR. Not even between books but within the book itself. I think I know why. Michael did the Thaylen accents more like a French accent (as it sounded to me, I’m not very good at placing accents) and Kate did some other accent that I can’t place where it’s from. So she probably was told to match Michael so that everyone who was from the same place sounded the same but I can here where that change was.
Between one chapter and the next Yalb goes from having a higher nasal sounding voice to one that sounds completely different with a a completely different cadence for his speech patterns and it throws me every time. Just the way he says Brightness sounds different. I understand why they did that change. The change actually makes him sound more how Brandon describes Thaylens sounding like but I wish they had gone back and fixed it other chapters instead of just starting a couple chapters in. It probably also bugs me because I like Yalb, he is a favored minor character of mine. I liked him originally with the first voice so the change feels a like they replaced him even though they didn’t. If that makes sense.
@78 – The audio book version uses a French-like accent for Thaylens? I wonder if Graphic Audio had any kind of guidance from Brandon concerning accents. They gave Thaylens an Indian accent.
Audio Books:
I’m starting to get a annoyed at the voice patterns they gave Rock. In my head, he should sound like Michael Clarke Duncan. But he’s sounding a little too 1950’s Native American chief – “Me Flying Eagle. You pale face.” Wooden, bad acting voice to the hilt.
On the plus side, the Herdazian’s sound like Wayne from MB: E2. Who sound rather like Aussie’s to me. Especially Lopen’s mom.
Oh well, that’s the draw back of having the people in our heads be represented in some type of audio or visual format. They never behave or sound like your internal movie made them behave.
@73 Muswell, while the lack of access to the Silmarillion could create some problems for the creators of the LOTR films, there was material in Tolkien’s LOTR book appendices that could have been used for a brief allusion to Morgoth, his captain, Sauron, and the fate of Numenor. Both Morgoth and Numenor are briefly mentioned in the FOTR film. The problem that Peter Jackson had with including such reference in the prologue was length. The prologue for the actual film was unusually lengthy, and inclusion of matters prior to the ring’s creation would have lengthened it further. As I see it, however, Cate Blanchett’s dramatic reading was so good that the additional material suggested would not have made it boring, but provided more context for the unfolding events.
@77 Austin – yeah it sounds like Antonio! No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition Herdazian Ardentia! I like it, it fits, and if he sounds like that, no wonder Shallan got a crush on him immediately after meeting him. You would not expect a teenage girl to crush on a bald monk in a robe, but if it is young Antonio Banderas with a shaved head, it makes sense.
I love Sadeas’ actor, he is perfectly smug and slimy sounding. After listening, I just wanted to punch him right through the headphones.
Nice post Alice! Some comments
Re: Shallan’s awareness of Elhokar seeing Cryptics by seeing them herself – Has Shallan ever really been in close proximity to Elhokar, other than when she first comes to the Plains to tell the Kholins about Jasnah, and when she is sitting in the stands for Adolin’s 4-on-1 duel? Both times, Syl was in close enough proximity to impact the presence of the “shadows,” or Cryptics, or whatever. I don’t think Shallan has really had the opportunity to detect other Cryptics, even if she could. The question is, would Pattern be aware of other Cryptics presence in his current state of mind?
Re: Adolin –
-Adolin is an amazing, capable, dedicated, dutiful and fun character that Brandon has created for the enjoyment of his readers (or at least this one). My appreciation for Adolin grew tremendously in Words of Radiance. I’m not in agreement with this apparent portrayal of him as this weak, pathetic, doomed son with no agency who must be on some path to a non-interesting or non-pivotal role to play in the Stormlight Archives.
-Adolin is his own man and doesn’t just mimic his father: his father is not into fashion; is not currently into wine (since it was Dalinar’s undoing the night Gavilar was killed); is not a fan of dueling; etc. Adolin may idolize his father and want to be like him (like a number of children do), but he also has his own opinions, style, approach and perspective.
-I would argue that Adolin doesn’t have a fear of failure; he is just stubborn and has a strong sense of perseverance. As for Adolin suffering from immense stress and/or pressure, Adolin may put a lot of pressure on himself, but so does: Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, Dalinar, Elhokar, etc. The vast majority of the POV characters are under a great deal of stress.
-I just disagree with this desire to portray Adolin as this weak, inept character; as a poor little someone who has all these bad things happen to him, and as this poor victim of uncontrollable circumstances versus someone who makes his own choices, be they good or bad.
@48 – Re: Kholin family failing – I think almost every Kholin family member has failed to some degree:
Dalinar’s failures led to (in his mind) his brother dying and (to everyone’s mind) the miscalculation at the Tower (fortunately Kaladin was around to help).
Jasnah failed in anticipating the Ghostblood’s attack on the ship, finding Urithuru and stopping the return of the Voidbringers (fortunately, Shallan was around to help).
Renarin would probably argue that he fails at a number of things that he’s tried, like helping his father, his brother, operating Shardplate, being a good soldier, being a good son, etc. (fortunately, he’s wrong and when he did fail, others have been around to help when needed).
Elhokar has failed at leading the Highprinces to actually avenge his father (allowing them to be sidetracked by wealth), he allowed Sadeas to manipulate the cut saddle situation to almost disastrous results, he failed at using the victory at the duel to trap Sadeas, and he consistently fails at governing, etc. (fortunately, Dalinar and others are often around to help).
Adolin failed at defeating Szeth and in allowing himself to be goaded into killing Sadeas (Kaladin helped with the former, we have yet to see who/what helps with the latter). It’s not about failing; it’s about giving up when you fail.
@66 – Ha! I’ve tried to look at it many times and focus on different things each time, but I generally end up seeing something similar: 4 big faces near the top of each 90 degree angle and 4 smaller faces near the middle of each 45 degree angle (at the 45, 135, 225 and 315 points, I mean). Then I start seeing the smaller details: insect-headed aliens, birdlike-creatures spreading their wings. And a big snowflake :-)
@83: Shallan insisted on personally telling Elhokar about Jasnah’s death, but we are not privy to the scene. Impossible to know what truly happened, but if she ever were in the proximity of Elhokar without having Kaladin around, it was then.
For the rest, I dunno how it is you read I have said Adolin was a pathetic and weak character: if you read any of my posts as such, then I have to conclude we both have a very different description for those. Also simply because I said Adolin tries to mimic his father does not mean they are the same person: he does try his best to be the best possible son. It is an integral part of his character and while it is tempting to read Adolin as just “oh look another fun empty cardboard character”, I think there is more to him than just that. Adolin wants Dalinar to be right about everything, he does not want to challenge his father and if you ever go to re-read WoK, it is relieve he feels when the visions are proven true. He doesn’t want to face a world into which his father is no longer able to call the shots. I call it unhealthy because from my perspective, Dalinar is being a crap of a dad with him, obviously caring more a soldier well-being then his own son. I also call it unhealthy because Adolin doesn’t second guess his father: thinking him the best man in the universe. Others are of course disagreeing with me, this is fine. Each time I say this, I know for a fact nobody is going to agree with me on it. They can’t. They don’t know how it feels like to be the Adolin in a family.
I would argue Adolin definitely has a fear of failure which is highlighted on several instances in the book. Each time he goes dueling, he is more nervous then he should be, afraid he would lose despite knowing he is the best fighter. After he does fail when facing Szeth, he reacts absurdly intensely by pulling an all nighter, sitting cross-legged at his father’s doorstep while wearing his Plate in order to avoid falling again. When he goes the Plain to show the chasmfiend to Shallan, he insists on making plans, planning, talking about planning because having a plan helps him. When there is no plan, this is when he starts to get too emotional. It happens on several occasions in the book, but they are easy to miss because the focus of the story never is on him. It gets lost into the rest unless you really like Adolin and you went to re-read those bouts.
Adolin’s whole behavior with the women also indicates a fear of failure unless you consider it “normal” he has been changing girlfriend every 2 weeks for the pass 6 years while internally telling himself the next one will be the right one. It takes up all its significance when he tells us he has no idea why it keeps falling and he when he shares he genuine desire to do get married. The answer to this question has been kindly provided to us by the author: Adolin is sabotaging his relationships because he is unconsciously afraid he won’t be good enough. So there. Fear of failure confirmed by the author.
Also everyone will react differently to stress: stating Kaladin and Shallan are under stress too therefore Adolin can’t have issues with it is irrelevant. Stress is another integral part of Adolin’s character, from the stomach aches, to the sweaty palms, to the nervous tics, to the erratic behavior which accumulated into a complete snapping: no other characters behave this way. Adolin’s entire arc has been about pilling on more stress over stress until his mind just broke. I don’t personally read stress when I read Kaladin or Shallan: oh it is there, but it does not consume them nor drive them. Adolin has problems dealing with stress, he has a tendency towards anxiety. Perhaps you need another stress-out reader to see those signs being planted here and there, but for my part, I do read this stress. I do see the early signs of the spiral. This is how it always starts: the author wouldn’t have put all the right references if it meant nothing.
For my part, stating Adolin is just our “normal solid token guy” is wrong because, it does not pass the test of further analysis. So unless I am completely aloof and insane, there is something going on with Adolin with respect to expectations, stress, failure or somewhere along those lines. I don’t personally get why you think it makes him pathetic: I personally think it makes him human.
I also don’t believe anyone ever portrayed Adolin as a victim. I have in fact stated he was not a victim and here was his future dilemma. Kaladin and Shallan at least as the knowledge they aren’t to blame, not truly, for their worst deeds. Adolin can’t blame anyone but himself and I do believe I have said this in several posts, so I dunno where you get people have called him a “victim”.
I am the one who keeps on saying Adolin can’t play a pivotal role into the story, but this is because the author has told us he wouldn’t, so unless the author changes his mind about it, it won’t happen. Brandon has said it in clear terms: Adolin was not one of the characters around which the story articulates which implies a non-pivotal role.
For me Adolin is about fearing something bad will happen if: with if you can built mountains or so they say.
Gepeto @84:
But for the purposes of detecting invisible spren that may or may not be haunting Elhokar it isn’t enough for Shallan to see him/meet with him, she’d also have to take a Memory of him and draw him, which, to our knowledge, she hasn’t done yet.
I also disagree that Adolin’s mind broke or that murder of Sadeas was him failing per se. Because, seriously, Torol needed to go and I am sure that his cousin and incipient Radiant Jasnah would have worked at it, had she been around. He was, after all, guiltier than the muggers and by his own admission intended to continue with his perfidy.Yes, Adolin was angry at that moment, sure, but he did previously argue logically with Dalinar that Sadeas was an enemy that had to be eliminated. Heck, the whole duel ruse was intended for the purpose of trapping and killing Sadeas! Yes, “with honor”, but then it is clear that Adolin is Cultivation-aligned, unlike his father. Now reprecussions may or may not break his mind, but we’ll have to wait and see.
TravelerR3D3 @61:
Well, it occurs to me that given what we know about Gavilar – i.e. that he had been receiving visions from Stormfather/Honor like Dalinar, he could have had a benign reason to want to “usher” the Desolation. Namely, his visions told him that it was relatively imminent anyway and by provoking it at the time of his own chosing, he could have ensured, theoretically, that humanity was in the best possible position to fight back. I mean, compare the situation then and in WoR. Alethi and most surrounding kingdoms were in much better shape prior to Gavilar’s murder.
What is also interesting, is that as far as we know at this point, Gavilar didn’t confide in any scholars, so his interepretations would have been hampered by that.
And another intriguing detail is that, apparently, Taravangian has been told that Almighty was dead… but Amaram still believes that he is around! So, maybe Amaram’s involvement with Sons of Honor predates Gavilar’s revelations and the king knew about it and intended to use him and them to somehow provoke the Desolation at the most advantagious time, and not because he wanted to restore the primacy of the Church worshiping a (to his knowledge) dead God? I.e. that Gavilar wasn’t really a true SoH himself, but intended to use them?
@85: My point was a meeting in between Shallan and Elhokar did happen, but the author chose not to show it to us. So either nothing of import happened or something happened but showing it to us, the readers, right now, was to spoiler-y. She thus had the opportunity to take a memory, the question should then be: Did she?
In the murder scene, Adolin states he snapped. It is interesting to go google “mind snapping” because this term is effectively used to describe situations where the unconscious mind takes over the conscious one. Road rage and violent outbursts in otherwise seemingly “normal” individuals does happen and the number of testimonies I have found in a simple search was astonishing. Some of those describe the Adolin scene to the near perfection, so well in fact I have to wonder if Brandon didn’t do the same search before he wrote it. The mechanism dates from old days when humans needed spontaneous responses to outward stimuli in order to survive. Unfortunately, it has become obsolete but it can get triggered again which is exactly what, I believe, happens to Adolin.
The words he uses… He goes and say “the part of him which wasn’t completely enraged”, this tackled to his conscious self who is able to glimpse at the actions, but can’t act. It was very reminiscent of this guy I read who ended punching his brother bloody after he taunted him one time too much: he states how strange his brother’s head felt to his fist. It is related in absolute calmness when it is obvious such event should have never happened. It is only after calm comes back together with cognitive function the attacked can finally see what he has done. Then shock kicks in.
They call it mind snapping for a reason: it is when the mind suddenly disconnect itself from its conscious response and yes heavy stress is, of course, one of the catalyst of such behavior. All individuals who suffered through those all say the same thing: they were stressed out for various reasons.
Adolin would have never killed Sadeas in a tunnel if something didn’t break in him. They never agreed they need to take him out, they agreed they needed to paralyze his efforts to undermine them. They may have said Adolin could kill him in the duel, if the occasion arises, but there never were any talk of simply killing him, especially not in such a brutal way. So Adolin wasn’t following any plan here.
My point also is Brandon used a specific terminology and he put in specific clues into the scene: he had a purpose. To me the purpose was to show Adolin’s reaction, while being his own, is not entirely conscious. It is very similar to when he beats down Salinor: he gets stuck into his spontaneous response and he can’t get out of it until he sees fear sprens. He also is disturbed by his own behavior: he doesn’t truly understand what has gotten into him. Sure he knows, to a certain extend, but he can’t explain how he allowed it to happen. Afterwards, he feels drained (I had wondered why he felt tired and why the author wrote it there) despite the fight having lasted for one minute. It correlates with testimonies of individuals having suffered similar events where they say they had needed sleeping for 16 hours afterwards or how their head hurt terribly once the moment was gone. This early scene was the precursor, the precursor Adolin is starting to become unstable, he has started to pill in too much. Another interesting testimony was this guy who stated how he needed to be strong for his family and how he had ignored the small events pilling one, struggling to keep on walking on the thin line of control until he completely lost it in a brutal way (nobody got hurt except the wall).
While others may agree there is nothing out-of-the-ordinary in the scene, Adolin was simply doing the dirty work which needed to be done while being in full possession of his cognitive functions, I personally don’t buy it. If it were the case, I believe the author would have written the scene differently. It would have read like Jasnah murdering the thugs as intend can be decided on a whim. It didn’t. His mind did snap and his reaction afterwards re-emphasis it. The wording, the feel of the scene, the emotions which passes through it, all of those combined indicate, to me, there was nothing premeditated in murdering Sadeas, it was rage killing and it happened because Adolin’s mind snapped or broke down, both basically mean the same thing (medical terminology makes little difference in between the two). Why? Because too much was happening to him, he couldn’t deal with Sadeas one more time: the same as this story about the brothers. Too much was happening, one lost it. Dunno what happened to him after though, the story didn’t say, but it shows one should not ignore stress and how one reacts to it. We aren’t all equal. Some individuals strive under stress and are completely useless without it, but for others, it just adds to the invisible stress they already put on themselves and it simply accumulates. Adolin strikes to me as the second type: he puts enough stress onto himself, his father adds to it which means he has little buffer to deal with the outside one. When his entire world is flipped over, he can’t keep himself together.
For all of those reason, to me, Adolin murdering Sadeas indeed was “mind snapping” and not an entirely conscious reaction.
To me mind snapping sounds like his mind is damaged, I did not know that it could have the meaning you describe (ausrasten in German). It is probably just a misunderstanding about the meaning of the word, not a disagreement about what happend.
@87: I agree as I did not mean “damage”. I was referring to a documented process where the human mind blocks the conscious response in order to favor the spontaneous one.
Adolin’s mind is not damaged, it is pretty normal, but he has likely experienced a “mind snap” or a “mental breakdown”, a process by which his actions became uncorrelated from his conscious response. It is the same phenomenon which prompts the mother to jump in front of danger to protect her children. It is completely spontaneous and in order to work, the brain has to block its conscious response because it would prevent one from jumping in front of danger. Another example I have read was this middle-ages man who got robbed while being with his daughter, but instead of playing possum, he jumped on the stealer and he tried to beat him up. He says while he was doing it he was asking himself “What are you doing?”. It made no sense to him because he didn’t want to get shot or hurt, but in this very moment, his mind snapped and he couldn’t control it anymore.
All people who snap through such means typically talks of the rage, the anger, like a pulsating wave completely out-of-control. Some people have only one event in their life, for others it is recurrent. It can or it cannot underline another condition, but in Adolin’s case it’s probably just an accumulation of stress/anxiety: without the additional stress of being in a lost city combined with his fiancee being a Radiant while a Desolation looms, he would have probably not done it.
It is super interesting to read and it describes Adolin’s scene perfectly well. Again, it does not mean he is weak, it means he is human. Even the strongest, most dutiful, most loyal and most perfect individual in the entire world can collapse if the right situation arises when another considered weaker may not. Adolin just has a very hard time dealing with uncertainty: he likes when things are planned and he can control them.
Oy. Just so you’re all prepared, tomorrow’s post promises to be long. It’s a long chapter with many-many-many Happenings.
@89 – Yippee!! These are the chapters I’ve been waiting for. Glad to hear you are going all out. Love it!
Alice @@@@@ 89 – Can’t wait Alice! We are in the climax of the story. :-) Gosh. These chapters until the end is so heartwrenching for me.
So I was rereading both books- skipping around a lot – and I just want to mention something. Everybody is worried about the repercussions of Adolin’s killing of Sadeas. Everybody seems to have forgotten Sadeas’ wife, who is a master spymaster – Sadeas himself called her dangerous. I’m pretty sure, whether she genuinely loved Sadeasa or not, she had power in a large part due to him – if I’m interpreting this right, she’s less noble on her own.
@92
I was actually excited/worried about Sadeas death because of her. Sadeas made me groan out loud and want bang against the wall because I just don’t care for antagonist like him. What I understand of there motivations I just don’t plain like and I just feel like that characters like Sadeas just bog down the story. They roadblocks to what’s actually interesting. But this has the potential to be a twist of the classic fridge the wife comic-book storyline. Instead of wife dying to give the husband reason for starting the storyline for revenge or whatever, the husband dies in the middle of the storyline and the wife has to take over the storyline with the added subplot of revenge or whatever.
@87 &88: Gepeto might be onto something here with the “snapping.” In Mistborn, one had to “Snap” before becoming an allomancer. We talk about the Nahel bond as the mind being “broken.”
Broken & Snapping might be equal terms on the two worlds.
I do wonder how hard it is to translate all the Cosmere terms into the different languages it is. Guessing Sanderson’s translators are an extra special breed.
I read German a little, but not enough to enjoy my favorite books in the language. I once owned Harry Potter in German and I intended to read it – with the English copy next to me. But that was pre-kids.
@92&93: Yep, Ialai’s quest for her husband’s killer – then her response – is going to be interesting to watch. In an “I’m rather scared” type of way.
So looking forward to book 3!!!
I hold Brandon’s writing skills in high esteem: he may not be the author using the most elaborate prose, but he does choose his words carefully. As a result, I certainly think purposefully using the word “snap” was deliberate. It has to mean something, if not what I think, then something else.
@94 Braid_Tug: On translation – BotanicaXu (whose awesome Cosmere fan art you’ve probably seen) wrote some fascinating posts on the Chinese translation of Stormlight:
http://botanicaxu.tumblr.com/post/126882178224/i-was-wondering-how-do-you-decide-how-to
http://botanicaxu.tumblr.com/post/126901136784/translating-the-stormlight-archive
I can’t read any foreign languages well either, but I still wish there were Sanderson books in Arabic so I could have the fun of muddling through and spotting words here and there. “Hey, it’s كالادين ka-la-deen!”
Re: audio books, I have very little time to sit down and read, so almost all of my “reading” is actually listening (my wife hates it when I talk about a book I’ve “read” when I’ve only ever listened to it). As such, my initial impressions of characters are often partly formed by how they’re read. For instance, I know a lot of people hate the Lightsong-as-a-surfer-dude reading, but since that was my first exposure to him, that’s just how he is to me.
@96 sheesania – In Roshar, Kaladin’s name is supposed to be pronounced like “Kaladeen” instead of rhyming with Paladin, just like “Shallan” and “Roshar” have the emphasis on the second syllable. But I guess everyone who read it assumed it was like “Paladin” so even Brandon gave up on correcting them and went along with it.
@98 Are you sure? The Coppermind says Kaladin is pronounced “KAL-a-din.” Kramer says it that way except as Rock, who says it with an “een.” I could have sworn there was a line in Way of Kings which explicitly said that “een” was something specific to Rock, though I can’t find it now.
@98 & 99 – I’m with Nazrax on this. For one thing, Brandon has said that the name Kaladin was partially derived from “paladin.” Also, there’s this, from WoR Chapter 9:
@100 Thank you for finding that line! It was really bugging me that I couldn’t find it – and no wonder, since I was looking in the wrong book …
Hello friends, I’m a reader of Sanderson but I am new to tor.com and these splendid re-reads. One thing has bothered me, though; this “Shipping Wars” business. I see that it’s something about opinions, but could someone explain the concept to me? I can’t see how romantic entanglements have anything to do with shipping, so perhaps it’s a nouning of a verb – such as “I’m on this ship, you’re on that ship, and the discussion of which ship we are on is called ‘shipping'”. Is it something like that?
“Shipping” as in relationSHIP.
For further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom)
Ahhh, delicious understanding. Thank you, Anthony!
@104: No problem!