Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Navani’s fabrials aided in the battle for the Plains, while Kaladin made a difficult choice back in the warcamp. This week, Shallan searches for the Oathgate while the battle rages, and Kaladin stands firm.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 83: Time’s Illusion
Point of View: Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, Kaladin
Setting: Narak, the Pinnacle
Symbology: the Duelist, Talenel, Shalash
IN WHICH Shallan arrives on the circular plateau; she and Renarin reason out why it must be the Oathgate and must have been preserved in this way; Pattern realizes that the Voidspren are raising a storm; Renarin recognizes that the wind is blowing the wrong way, and that it is the Everstorm; his comments give Shallan the creeps; her team searches for anything strange; at the center, she finds a large mound; she asks Renarin to slay it.
… Adolin looks around a dark chamber in the mound he just slew; it is an enormous building with many rooms; they find the far wall of the building, which the Parshendi are using for protection; he outlines the assault plan, then carves an exit; he and his troops emerge behind the singing Parshendi; he leads the charge, and it’s far too easy; with almost no resistance, and with no Thrill to help him block it out he is disgusted by the slaughter; he is attacked by the Shardbearer Eshonai; he turns eagerly to an honest fight.
… a wounded Dalinar returns from battle to the command tents; though about half of Roion’s army is saved, they have lost the northern plateau; Dalinar’s surgeon is stunned by the scarring, but Dalinar focuses on the battle; Navani is upset but understanding; Adolin has won his plateau, and Aladar is holding steady; an even match is a loss with the Everstorm coming; Roion gets hysterical, but Dalinar’s reprimand is interrupted by the Stormfather; an actual conversation ensues, but is unhelpful; the Stormfather promises only a cleansing storm to wash away their corpses; they are abandoned.
… a wounded Kaladin stands between the unconscious king and Moash; Moash tries the “we’re Bridge Four” argument and Kaladin turns it around on him; Kaladin argues for going after the right people instead; Graves and Moash claim that it’s too late; Moash prepares for a fight.
Quote of the Week
He looked up at Navani grimly, expecting to be dressed down like a recruit who had forgotten his whetstone. Instead, she took him by his good side, then pulled him close.
“No reprimand?” Dalinar asked.
“We’re at war,” she whispered. “And we’re losing, aren’t we?”
Dalinar glanced at the archers, who were running low on arrows. He didn’t speak too loudly, lest they hear. “Yes.” The surgeon glanced at him, then lowered her head and kept sewing.
“You rode to battle when someone needed you,” Navani said. “You saved the lives of a highprince and his soldiers. Why would you expect anger from me?”
I don’t have anything profound to say about this. I just… think it’s beautiful.
Off the Wall
Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia
—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1
This is where we get confirmation that the occurrence of the Desolations was determined by the strength of will of the Heralds under the Oathpact. I always find this particularly poignant: In the distant past, Roshar depended on the willingness of the Heralds to voluntarily remain under torture; they could leave at any time… whenever the pain outweighed the lives of the Rosharan people. (I wonder if we’ll ever find out who usually left first?) It is indeed a wonder that 4500 years have passed, with only one man’s tenacity holding Odium at bay.
In that context, it’s difficult to choose between amusement and anger at the various groups who thought that they could bring about the return of the Radiants, or the Heralds, through their own machinations. Had they only understood …
Commentary
We’re well and truly caught in the avalanche now. This is the third chapter in a row with at least four viewpoint sections; everything is happening at once.
So we’ve got Shallan and Renarin working together, sorta… at least when they’re united against Inadara’s pedantry. Inadara thinks in terms of current culture: how would the current Alethi highprinces think of something like the Oathgate? It’s all about control and tactical advantage. Shallan’s studies, however, have given her a different perspective about the Silver Kingdoms. (Also, I think Inadara and Shallan just grate on each other, and if Shallan says up, Inadara will say down just on principle.) So Shallan looks for the Oathgate in the most prominent place, and she’ll be right.
So: that’s what’s happening on that circular plateau in the lower right of the map.
In the lower left, we have Adolin slaying his own rocks, and finding an enormous building; there seems to be plenty of room for his thousand soldiers to have to work their way through it to find the other side. Who knows what it was originally; it is at least two stories high, and contains scattered remains of bones and what might once have been furniture. Once they’re on the other side, he can actually hear the Parshendi song resonating through the walls, so… out they go, right on target. And here’s where we see that bit that came up in the discussion last week:
… Often they’d come to just before he killed them— blinking to consciousness, shaking themselves awake, only to find themselves face-to-face with a full Shardbearer in the rain, murdering their friends. Those looks of horror haunted Adolin as he sent corpse after corpse to the ground.
Where was the Thrill that usually propelled him through this kind of butchery? He needed it. Instead, he felt only nausea. Standing amid a field of the newly dead— the acrid smoke of burned-out eyes curling up through the rain— he trembled and dropped his Blade in disgust. It vanished to mist.
For whatever reason, he didn’t get the Thrill at all this time – whether from the lack of actual battle, or because he is moving closer to Honor and away from Odium, or some other reason, I don’t believe we can say with certainty. Yet.
And then Eshonai shows up.
At the upper edge of the map, you can see the plateau from which Roion’s army has been extracted. It is lost to the Parshendi, but thanks to Navani’s interventions, the archers were able to engage the Parshendi enough to save the highprince and Captain Khal (General Khal’s son), along with about half of the army. They also retrieved Teleb’s Blade, though they had to leave his body and his Plate. I’m rather sad about that; we hardly knew him, but I had a soft spot for Teleb. Perhaps we’ll get to know the younger Teleb in Dalinar’s flashbacks.
Just right of center is Aladar’s plateau, which doesn’t really enter into the chapter other than as a path for Shallan’s team to get to the Oathgate, and a comment that he’s holding steady. To the far right is Narak, but there’s probably no one there any more. We don’t know for sure.
In the center, of course, is the command plateau, where Sebarial is busy staying out of the way. This is also where Dalinar has the extremely frustrating conversation with the Stormfather, which is confirmed as an actual conversation but is extraordinarily unhelpful. It ends thus:
I AM CALLED. I MUST GO. A DAUGHTER DISOBEYS. YOU WILL SEE NO FURTHER VISIONS, CHILD OF HONOR. THIS IS THE END.
FAREWELL.
“Stormfather!” Dalinar yelled. “There has to be a way! I will not die here!”
Silence. Not even thunder. People had gathered around Dalinar: soldiers, scribes, messengers, Roion and Navani. Frightened people.
“Don’t abandon us,” Dalinar said, voice trailing off. “Please…”
And then we jump to Kaladin in the Pinnacle, thinking that
This would be a sad place to die. A place away from the wind.
Interesting parallel. Dalinar, out there in the wind, refusing to die there; Kaladin in a palace corridor, thinking how sad it would be to die here away from the wind.
Turns out to be the same corridor where he’d fought a different assassin a while back, where the hole Szeth had made – and they’d fallen out – has been boarded up. Another parallel.
Moash challenges Kaladin for being willing to attack a member of Bridge Four, though Kaladin contends that going against Bridge Four’s duty means you aren’t a member any more. Moash keeps advancing, and Kaladin challenges him for being willing to attack his own captain and friend. Another parallel.
The case he makes to Moash is a good one, and comes from a good source:
“We have to be better than this, you and I. It’s… I can’t explain it, not perfectly. You have to trust me. Back down. The king hasn’t yet seen you or Graves. We’ll go to Dalinar, and I’ll see that you get justice against the right man, Roshone, the one truly behind your grandparents’ deaths.
“But Moash, we’re not going to be this kind of men. Murders in dark corridors, killing a drunk man because we find him distasteful, telling ourselves it’s for the good of the kingdom. If I kill a man, I’m going to do it in the sunlight, and I’m going to do it only because there is no other way.”
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Another parallel.
Kaladin is starting over, and this time he’s taking the parallel paths the right directions.
Stormwatch
Day Zero continues
Sprenspotting
We see four spren – or their effects – in this chapter. First is Pattern, talking with Shallan, about the second:
“Mmmm,” Pattern said softly. “They are raising a storm.”
“The Voidspren?” Shallan whispered.
“The bonded ones. They craft a storm.”
Interesting little note: it’s only the bonded Voidspren who are involved in making the storm, though there are plenty of unbonded ones in it. Also: I could be wrong on this, but without spending a lot more time than it’s worth… I think this is the first time one of “our team” realizes that the singing Parshendi are actually creating the storm. Obviously Eshonai & Co. knew, but even though Rlain knew the song had to be stopped, he didn’t know what its effect was. Pattern can see it now; presumably the Stormfather already knew, but he wasn’t exactly “our team” at this point. I wonder if Glys knows.
Speaking of Glys, we keep seeing his effects, which we recognize quite clearly in hindsight. Renarin is no longer wearing his spectacles (and in this rain, that’s got to be a blessing!); we don’t see here the difficulty he has with his Blade, but we’ve seen him grimace when he summoned it in the past, and in the next chapter he’ll let out a relieved sigh when he dismisses it. What we do see here is that only he is aware of certain nuances: the direction of the wind, the significance of the direction, and the terrible things it’s bringing. Shallan merely thinks of him as being “creepy and whiny,” which is probably understandable, all things considered. I can’t help sympathizing with Renarin, though I’ll deal with more of that when it becomes relevant in a couple of weeks.
Anyway… The last one, obviously, is the Stormfather. Once again, I find myself peeved at him. “Sorry not sorry, can’t won’t help, sending storm to destroy what’s left of you, gotta go stop a spren from helping anyone, bye.”
*headdesk*
However… Dalinar is healing too well. He’s obviously not healing perfectly; there is a lot of scar tissue, but according to the surgeon, he shouldn’t even be able to use his arm after that many wounds. So, just how long has he been using Stormlight, however imperfectly, to heal his wounds? Since he took on Gavilar’s mantle, following the Codes, maybe? It occurs to me to wonder… could his Shardplate have been somehow feeding him Stormlight, to help him heal? I know, that’s kinda out of nowhere, but these thoughts have to be thunk.
Ars Mechanica
There’s not a lot to say about the fabrials this week, other than to note that Navani’s dehumidifiers are still working nicely. Unfortunately, since the archers just ran out of arrows, they aren’t doing much good any more. Also, Adolin & Co. have some large-gem lanterns, which is a good thing if you’re trying to make your way through what sounds like a multi-level shopping mall that’s been crusted over with crem for four thousand years. Also unfortunately, they’re starting to go dim from lack of Stormlight during the Weeping.
Heraldic Symbolism
This city hid beneath time’s own illusion.
And there you have the title. Singularly appropriate, as both Shallan and Adolin are making use of their knowledge of the buried and broken city.
Shalash graces the chapter arch, presumably due to the importance of Shallan’s effort and insight in finding the Oathgate.
Talenel… well, just about everything associated with Talenel comes into play in this chapter: Dependable, Resourceful; Stonewards; Rock and Stone; Soldier; Herald of War. First of all, he’s noted in the epigraph as “The Ancient of Stones” a.k.a. the Herald of War. Shallan and Adolin are both resourceful in accessing the ancient city to meet their objectives. Everyone is dependable – Shallan, Renarin, Adolin & his soldiers, Dalinar, Navani, Kaladin. (Well, not everyone. Roion is hysterical instead, and the Stormfather is downright fickle.) Shallan, Adolin, and Renarin all deal with rock and stone in significant ways. And of course, all the soldiers are fighting. The only thing missing is the Stoneward… but there may well be a Stoneward out here that we don’t know of yet.
I think it would be hilarious if Rock became a Stoneward.
Shipping Wars
This isn’t really shipping, it’s just an enjoyable parallel between Shallan and Adolin with their slaying of rocks. In the last sentence of Shallan’s PoV, she asks Renarin to kindly slay the rock/mound she suspects of being the Oathgate building; in the next sentence, Adolin raises a sphere to look around the chamber he’d just carved his way into. Adolin, of course, gives the credit where it’s due:
“How did you know, sir?” asked Skar, the bridgeman. “How’d you guess that this rock mound would be hollow?”
“Because a clever woman,” Adolin said, “once asked me to attack a boulder for her.”
I did have to go back and check, because my memory told me that Adolin had wandered off before Shallan and Kaladin had the conversation about the rock back in Chapter 68. Turns out I was right, but there was another conversation, somewhat later in the chapter. Adolin and Shallan are strolling across the bridge, having given up on their horse and palanquin respectively, and she’s explaining to him about the “hidden remnants of a structure she’d found inside that rock earlier.” Then the carpenter pulls the lever and everything goes pear-shaped. Clearly Adolin remembered that conversation quite well.
Just Sayin’
This is a total misuse of this unit, but I’m putting it here anyway, so it stands out by itself:
“I had to make the choice that would let me sleep at night, Moash,” Kaladin said wearily…
Thank you, Zahel.
There. That ought to keep us busy for a bit. Next week, Shallan will inspect the Oathgate, Adolin will fight Eshonai, and Kaladin… ah, Kaladin will finally shine.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Her latest endeavor in that regard was the just-completed alpha read of a certain novella coming out this fall in the Cosmere collection Arcanum Unbounded. As a result, she highly recommends that y’all start saving your pennies… you are going to want this book! Lift. Is. Awesome.
I don’t think Dalinar has been using Stormlight. Don’t you need a nahel bond to do that? Dalinar has not been secretly bonded to the Stormfather for years, like Shallan and Kaladin have with their spren.
Austin @1 – Ah, but that’s the question, isn’t it? Did it require some minimal level of bonding to give him the visions? The fact that he’s been devotedly trying to live by the Codes demonstrates a certain commitment to the Ideals, even if he hasn’t said the Words with intent…
Alice – I didn’t think about the visions. That could very well possibly have given Dalinar some type of benefit. Good point!
During my initial read of WoR, I missed the hint in this chapter that Dalinar was on his way to being a Knight Radiant — his exceptional healing abilities. I thought it was more akin to somebody developing callouses on his/her hands over time. I was quite wrong.
Alice, your above quote from Adolin is very interesting. It shows several aspects of Adolin’s character. First, he actually listens to people. This is one of the many examples we see of Adolin listening to something Shallan says and trying to use that knowledge later. Another example was when he told Navani and Dalinar that they should listen to Shallan’s theory about Parshmen. Second, Adolin does have some intelligence (and not just for military tactics). He can take knowledge that someone has told him (in a subject he does not have in depth knowledge about) and apply it to other instances. Finally, Adolin does not mind giving credit to others. He could have lied to Skar and made up some explanation that made it seem like it was Adolin’s idea.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@1 We know that “squires” of knights are able to use Stormlight (see Dalinar’s visions, Teft’s comments that some of the bridgemen were glowing, and especially Lopen’s scene near the end). I think Kaladin was using Stormlight before Syl ever started talking to him – when he saves Cenn at the beginning of WoK, not only is Kaladin moving too fast, but Cenn sees “A warping of the air, like the wind itself become visible” around Kaladin.
Has anyone ever asked Brandon whether void spren and/or those bonded to them have access to Stormlight (or Voidlight or somesuch)? As I was rereading this chapter, I was reminded of the theorizing that Renarin isn’t actually a Truthwatcher. I can’t remember if the speculation is that he’s got a “good” spren but is actually in another order, or whether he’s bonded to a Voidspren; but if he did have a Voidspren, how could his eyes heal?
In reading the 2nd paragraph above of Kaladin’s speech to Moash, isn’t this a heavy piece of foreshadowing? Spoilers: Isn’t this EXACTLY what Adolin does to Sadeas? So I really wonder, if the truth ever comes out, what affect this might have on Adolin and Kaladin’s friendship. And while I cheared out loud and gave a fist pump in the air when Sadeas got his, looking at this speech again made me realize that Kaladin could never be OK with what Adolin did as it’s completely what he is against as a Windrunner.
What stood out to me in this chapter is the contrast between Kaladin and some of our other radiants in training. Kaladin: “If I kill a man, I’m going to do it in the sunlight, and I’m going to do it only because there is no other way.”. On the other hand Jasnah is the kill you in the dark after I lure you to your death by pretending to be a vulnerable woman. It’ll be interesting to see how all of the radiant orders get along once their numbers start to swell.
@1&2 – I’m wondering if simply wearing shardplate allows the wearer to draw in a low level of stormlight. Thus the wearers are able to last longer and do more than regular fighters.
But since you have no real control or bond with whatever it is that makes the plate – you cannot use it like a real KR could.
So here is the big question for Alice.
We are coming up on the chapters altered (in a big way) for the paperback version. Will the reread address the original version or the revised version? Or both?
The paperback version is different from the hard cover? Do I have to buy the paperback?
Walker @9
I’d like to see both versions covered.
I enjoyed Renarin’s scholarly input this week, even though Shallan thinks of him as creepy and whiny. Paliah could easily have been part of this chapter’s iconography. I want to see more of Renarin as he grows into Radiancy, and I believe we will.
Are we defining the Last Desolation as the (repeated) collision of a Highstorm with the Everstorm?
Brandon summarizes his changes here (scroll down to Words of Radiance Tweak), and someone’s posted the exact changes here.
Brandon @6 – You don’t need to white out spoilers for later in the book; no one here is (or should be) completely new to the ending. But it’s quite true that Adolin is most likely not a Windrunner candidate, if he ever becomes a KR. I don’t know how Kaladin will personally respond to it, though; that should be interesting to see.
Braid_Tug @8 – That’s what I was wondering, and I don’t recall seeing any theorizing or WoB along that order. Has anyone else seen anything? It would be a fascinating development for Shardplate to actually provide some level of Stormlight-healing to its wearer. Re: Dalinar, I don’t know which I’d prefer!
Walker @9 – Thanks for reminding me! I’ll address both of them in some fashion, as long as I don’t space out and forget to. I mostly work from the ebooks, which IIRC are the revised version… but I’ll make sure.
@12 – Whoa, that is some major changes. How did I never hear of this? I don’t think I like the changes.
We’ll talk about the changes and the reasons behind them (other than the typos we missed) when we get to those chapters; I’d rather we didn’t derail chapter 83 into a discussion of chapter 86, if y’all don’t mind.
I don’t think they can pull stormlight from the shardplate. It seems to happen the other way around.
During the arena battle the helmet that Kal used as a shield blocked a lot more attacks then it should have and Kal ran out of stormlight a lot faster than he should have Kal believed that the helmet was using his stormlight to fuel it.
Also during that battle stormlight was flowing out of multiple cracks from all of the wearers and he never thought to suck it in even after he ran out. Probably means he couldn’t.
Fair enough, Alice. Great summary as usual! I can’t wait to read your comments next week when Kaladin “levels up” :)
@16: but don’t forget, the shardplate has infused gemstones in itself. And it uses stormlight to heal and repair itself.
So plate does actively use stormlight. The plate sucking away Kaladin’s stormlight makes some sense.
Anyone going to PhoenixCon this week? Can someone ask Brandon?
Thanks @13. I’m a long time lurker but 1st time I’ve posted and I couldn’t remember if spoilers were being hid or not.
So am I the only one whose breath kind of hitched and got all goose bumpy when the Stromfather said “A DAUGHTER DISOBEYS”? I think that was the 1st point when I knew, without a doubt, that Syl was coming back and Kaladin was going to unleash all kinds of Windrunner beat down on someone. Up to that point I kept telling myself Sanderson wouldn’t REALLY kill Syl, right? I think those 3 words were probably my favorite in the book just for what it signified.
Simpol @16:
Recall that at the time Kaladin was desperately trying to keep under wraps the fact that he could channel use stormlight. Perhaps he thought his secret would out if he started sucking in stormlight for everyone to see.
@20 me too.
One thing (for everyone) adding multiple newlines to your comment makes it look like you have whited out spoiler text at the end, and it is a minor annoyance.
I think it’s clear Dalinar has used Stormlight before. It will be interesting to learn the how. Along with the hints in this chapter, there’s the quite clear statement from Dalinar when he heals himself later, in Chapter 89. It includes a supposition as to when he’d done it before, but Brandon is wont to have his characters make incorrect suppositions. Given the hints in this chapter, it would not surprise me if he had done it well before this, else he would have spent years with a rigid, immobile arm.
I wonder if Kaladin will approve personally of Sadeas’ demise, while disapproving of methodology? I think there will be more personal, internal conflict for Kaladin upcoming. Hopefully he’s learned his lesson and will lean on others for help in understanding the correct course.
There’s lots of awesome people doing awesome things in this chapter. And it only gets better from here.
Nice post Alice; thanks!
I remember being amused by the Shallan/Renarin banter because –pre WoR–there were a number of fans that were in favor of a Shallan/Renarin pairing and I always saw this as Brandon’s answer to that possibility! As for Renarin and Glys: yeah, let’s discuss that more in a few weeks…
I liked how Brandon displayed Adolin’s tactical skills and overall intelligence here, by utilizing the information that Shallan provided him chapters ago to effectively assault the Parshendi. I also respected how Brandon displayed the killing of those Parshendi as a type of slaughter of individuals mentally caught up in something apparently greater than themselves or their individual consciousness.
Dalinar being able to function beyond what his wounds should allow was a nice little touch that Brandon included there. It’s referenced a few chapters later, but it is also noteworthy during a reread. Also, it must seem pretty freaky, from the perspective of any other character present, to see Dalinar argue with the wind.
I think this is when I, like Kaladin, had to accept the fact that Moash would not be redeemed in WoR. I remember not trusting him as early as WoK, but a small part of me had hoped that maybe Kaladin could “save” Moash, just as Kaladin was working towards his own salvation. What a waste of good Shards. Also, 2 Shardbearers to kill the king? Overkill much?
As for the “Off the Wall” excerpt, I am curious how even super-smart Tarvangian knew that it was Talenel standing between the Roshar people and another Desolation. That doesn’t just seem to be incredible intelligence amplifying deductive reasoning; it continues to become evident that some external source had to provide some of his information to make the Diagram.
@1-3 – I also think that Dalinar had some nascent bond with the Stormfather that allowed him to see visions and heal slightly better than normal.
@@.-@ – Excellent points about Adolin. He does actually listen to what’s said and factor that in to his decision making process. He’s demonstrated that several times throughout this book, listening to Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar when appropriate.
@6 – Re: the parallels between Moash and Adolin, I respectfully disagree. Moash was the king’s bodyguard and sought to assassinate him for revenge. Adolin is Sadeas’s rival and sought to kill him partially for revenge at the Tower, but mostly because Sadeas directly stated that he plans to destroy Adolin’s father, and take away everything that Dalinar has accomplished or holds dear. In addition to that, Sadeas was ignoring the now proven fact that the Voidbringers are indeed back and that Dalinar’s actions are purely to save all of Roshar, and Sadeas just demonstrated that he didn’t care about that, he just cared about gaining power. In other words, it could be argued that Moash is purely acting selfishly, whereas Adolin is acting for the benefit of others (in addition to his own selfish reasons). As for how Kaladin will respond to Adolin’s actions? I’m looking forward to how Brandon shows us!
@9,12 &15 Interesting question regarding the 2 different endings and I’m glad we are planning to tackle both.
@20 You were not the only one, although I was hoping/expecting Kaladin and Syl to reunite ever since Kal spoke with the Stormfather when Kaladin and Shallan were stranded in the chasms during the highstorm and the Stormfather claimed that Kaladin had killed Syl.
It would be odd if Stormlight could not flow bidirectionally between the various batteries that can store it, but I suppose anything is possible in an invested realm.
I thought I would share this page I found on the 17th shard. Just because. And no, I am not the artist. Odium is so creepy!
You bring up choosing between amusement and anger at the various secret societies trying to return the Heralds and Radiants. I have a very specific metric for this: “Did the [insert secret society here] use and abuse outsiders in their quest to restore what was lost?” If not (e.g. the Envisagers), they receive amusement (heavily tempered by Sigzil’s personal tragedy, of course), and if so (e.g. the Sons of Honor), they receive all of the hatred and scorn I can muster. Hoid’s opinion of Amaram becomes very very resonant upon rereads in this manner.
‘Re my theory @18. Someone asked. WoB – no.
Darn. Next theory.
That quote of the week is adorable, but something about my inner 12-year-old boy can’t help but squee over the segment right before it:
It works on two levels: first, it just affirms how awesome Dalinar is, still able to function with a shoulder that looks like it wouldn’t work to a trained medical professional. Secondly, tied in with later it demonstrates how Dalinar probably has some kind of Stormlight healing going on in his shoulder: specifically, the surgeon is commenting on how the scars there would be indicative of wounds that rob the shoulder of mobility. So cosmetically they appear that way, but underneath they don’t rob Dalinar of the use of the arm he figured he should have. So beneath the skin Dalinar has probably been healed for mobility, but it hasn’t altered his appearance because the scars are what he expects.
Oh and of course I love “A DAUGHTER DISOBEYS.” The Stormfather may be super unhelpful in the text, but for us readers this casual line equals hope!
This is one of the many reasons why I love Adolin. He gives credit where credit is due. He also listens (both have mentioned earlier). Adding to that, this also shows that Adolin is actually quite intelligent. Because he is so good looking, many assume that he is just a pretty face. He has beauty and brains. :-)
@24 Regarding the parallel between Moash an Adolin:
Sadeas is still a highprince and therefore technically still an ally, just like the other highprinces. A bodyguard shouldn’t try to kill the one he’s protecting, just like the son of a highprince shouldn’t kill other highprinces (even if they threaten his family).
Completely agree about Sadeas being a dick and deserving to die, but the way Adolin went about it was unjust.
Moash wanted to kill Elhokar because he wanted revenge and a better king (he had seen what happened when a bad king ruled).
Adolin wanted to kill Sadeas because he wanted revenge and to protect his family.
One could therefore argue that Moash’s actions would have benefited more people than Adolin’s.
I’m really just playing devil’s advocate here, I agree that Elhokar doesn’t deserve to die and that killing Sadeas was the right thing to do. Most people here just seem to believe that Adolin is beyond reproach, but he murdered someone in his rage.
Nazrax @5:
This is a great explanation for Dalinar’s impossible healing of debilitating wounds that happened long ago! It seems that Gavilar was on the Radiant path for a long time – some combination of his own flaws as a person and Stormfather dragging his heels must have extended the process. And Dalinar, of course, was his loyal follower and protector – i.e. a “squire”. It all makes perfect sense.
KiManiak @24:
Well, we don’t know what information Taravangian possessed at the time of his Diagram-making. Gavilar’s visions very well may have included the Breaking of the Oathpact, and since he chose to tell T about Honor/Almighty being dead, I don’t see why he’d keep this other pertinent fact back from him. After all, Dalinar couldn’t really remember his earlier visions – hopefully, they’ll b repeating now, so that he has a chance to make some sense out of them.
Alternatively, if T somehow learned that the Shin possessed the Honorblades, and which one was missing, it wouldn’t be difficult for somebody of genius intelligence to figure out what must have happened.
And, finally, I disagree that Moash’s attempted murder of Elhokar is equivalent to Adolin’s murder of Sadeas. The former was merely inconvenient, the latter actively malicious and engaged in sabotaging the work of organizing humanity to withstand a Desolation for the sake of his own selfish gain/ego.
@32 I don’t think that Gavilar was on the path to being a radiant. We know he planned to bring back the Parshendi gods, in other words bring another desolation. He must have been part of whatever group Amaram is part of. I don’t see them as people who are on the path to becoming radiants personally. Yes, Dalinar was loyal to his brother, but I don’t think he was his Squire either. At that point in time Dalinar was a drunk and a warmonger. He only changed after Gavilar’s death.
Oh and I’m very curious indeed about the real Gavilar. Most of the way we see him is heavily influnced by Dalinar. Dalinar won’t allow a single bad word to be said about his brother. I would be very interested to know more about what happened between him and Navani though. I wish Dalinar had allowed her to speak. All we know is that she didn’t find him to be an ideal husband. I think there’s an awful lot behind that. Dalinar hero worshipped his brother, and Gavilar’s death has made it impossible for anyone to speak honestly about his character. I think he might not have been as good a guy as Dalinar makes him out to be.
Like @31, I’m just playing devils advocate here as far as the Adolin vs Sadeas thing. But if you look at it strictly through the view of a Windrunner, which so far is the Order we have seen that is most closely tied to Honor, I believe what Adolin did is indefensible. It wasn’t a duel, it was a murder in a corridor. Adolin didn’t kill him because someone was in immediate danger of being killed by him, he did it because he knew Sadeas would never stop coming after his family. And while I totally agree with what Adolin did and would give him a crisp high five for it, if you just look at it as a Windrunner I don’t think it would be allowed. Obviously other Orders would have no issue with it but for those most closely holding to Honor, I just don’t think it would be allowed. Me personally though, I heartily approve of it.
About Adolin v Moash: remember Adolin has already tried going through Due Process, but Sadeas is above the Law. The only way to stop Sadeas from destroying EVERYTHING was to kill him when there was a chance. And Sadeas was literally asking for it. Was it a Windrunner thing to do? No. But it wasn’t necessarily an unknightly deed. What Moash was doing is completely against what Radiants are all about. And WoB confirms what Adolin did was very much in line with some of the Radiant orders.
I will add one thing. What Jasnah did in a dark alley was much less justifiable than what Adolin did. She certainly couldn’t be a Windrunner, but unlike Moash, she can be a Radiant because what she did can still be backed by the First Ideal.
Edit: Sadeas stopped being an ally when he attempted to murder his ally. Repeatedly. And openly opposed the King. Through disobedience. And then swore to tear the kingdom and build his own instead. We don’t call those allies, we call those enemies. The Tower should have been enough to dub Sadeas an enemy, but WoR has left that fact completely undeniable. Hence why I said Sadeas is “above the Law,” because he sees himself as his own (outsider) kingdom. Outside kingdoms have their own sovereignty, and thus lose their right to due process (except on an international level).
I think it’s important to bear in mind the question of motivation when discussing this. Motivation is central in these books (Kaladin even loses his powers because he become motivated by anger and revenge, he only keeps them as long as he’s motivated by the desire to protect) Elhokar is not deliberately malicious. He constantly screws up, but he tries to do the right thing, and be a good leader. He’s just no good at it. Think about his conversation with Kaladin towards the end of WoR where he’s lamenting that he never manages to get things right. Think about Kaladin’s epiphany when he realises that the king is Dalinar’s Tien. Sadeas on the other hand is deliberately malicious. He tries to undermine Dalinar, he tries to kill Dalinar. Not by accident, on purpose. And then in that corridor he makes it abundantly clear that he will never stop. Even though Dalinar has been proven right he will continue to try and manipulate events to his own advantage. So I think there is a clear difference between Adolin killing Sadeas and Moash trying to kill the king. Moash is motivated purely by revenge. Yes, Elhokar was partly responsible for the death of his grandparents, but Elhokar didn’t do that deliberately, he was manipulated by someone he trusted.
Re: Parallel between Adolin and Moash
Sometime ago, in this same re-read, we had a commenter who is a lawyer IRL. The discussion was about all the murders and killings that the characters did and how they will fare in the American justice system.. In the discussion, Adolin’s killing of Sadeas was labeled as Manslaughter or third degree murder. Reason – it was unplanned, it was a crime of passion, it was a crime of opportunity. It was even said that a good lawyer or a good defense team can get Adolin off.
But, Moash’s attempted murder of Elhokar is different from Adolin’s killing of Sadeas. If Moash succeeded, it would have been an assassination and it will be Murder One because it it was planned.
And to me, that is the big difference.
Just my thoughts.
@31 – First of all, I appreciate the playing of Devil’s Advocate; it’s always good to hear different perspectives and not just be locked in to your own (I try to at least listen to them, although I may not always agree).
Sadeas may “technically” be allied with the other 9 Highprinces in King Elhokar’s war against the Parshendi, but in all other ways he has not been an ally to House Kholin since the betrayal at the Tower in WoK. In all of WoR, he was very much not an ally, and was being somewhat like “a dick” as you say. Having said that, I agree that as the son of a highprince, Adolin shouldn’t kill any of the highprinces unless he is actively engaged in combat. Otherwise, it should be some type of crime.
Moash vs Adolin: Moash wanted to kill Elhokar mostly for revenge (I believe the desire for a better king was a rationalization to justify regicide, but that is just my opinion). Adolin decided to kill Sadeas after Sadeas threatened to take away Urithuru and all of the discoveries from Dalinar (and if you think about it, he would also be taking it away from House Kholin and even possibly the king of Alethkar, by extension) in his quest for power. A rather weak argument could be made that Sadeas was essentially declaring war against House Kholin, or (and this is even weaker) suggesting treason against the crown by stating he and Dalinar both want a kingdom, that it has to either be he or Dalinar who wins, and that he will take Urithuru and these discoveries away from Dalinar.
@32 –Yeah we don’t know what Taravangian knew when he created the Diagram on his supersmart day. Maybe he did know about Talenel or was able to deduce it via his information regarding the Honorblades. We just don’t know much about that yet…
@35 – Kaladin may be a Windrunner, but is he supposed to project those ideals onto everyone else as well? And hold all of his friends (and even his liege-lord) accountable for all of their previous actions? Seems like he would not be comfortable with a lot: Dalinar’s actions as the Blackthorn; Jasnah’s actions with assassins, killing Ghostbloods, and in the alley; Shallan’s actions with the Ghostbloods; Elhokar’s actions as king; etc. Windrunners may not approve of those actions for anyone in their order or under their command, but would they punish or ostracize non-Windrunners for their previous actions. I am curious to see how Kaladin and Adolin’s relationship develops if/when Kaladin discovers Adolin killed Sadeas, and how. Kaladin does not like Sadeas, but Adolin did murder him in cold blood commit murder.
Re: Adolin in general – I am definitely a fan of his, but I don’t believe in ignoring the consequences of his (or any other character’s) actions. I’m sure when we get to that chapter we will discuss it in more detail, but I have no problems clearly stating right now: Adolin killing Sadeas was definitely cold-blooded murder.
While discussing Adolin’s future in the comments section for Chapter 81, I spelled it out rather straight forwardly: Adolin killed a Highprince in cold blood, which is probably one of the highest crimes there is in Alethi society, presumably right below regicide.
The reader can try to argue that he was provoked, he was stressed out and vulnerable, he was doing it for the greater good, or whatever. But the truth remains that Adolin committed what is likely one of the worst crimes in his society (the murder of a highprince) and he will ultimately have to be held accountable for that. Whether the accountability comes forward via his internal guilt or through some eyewitness calling him out, I look forward to how Brandon displays Adolin’s mettle in dealing with the consequences of his actions.
ETA: Changed the type of murder; it’s not cold-blooded as there wasn’t premeditation. Still pretty bad, though… :p
Cold-blooded? I’d call it hot-blooded, at the least…
Alice, thanks for the review and the revelation that the following epigraph refers to the Herald Taln. Perhaps others were more perceptive than me, but I had no clear idea previously to whom this epigraph referred. In fact, I had thought that it might refer to some stone deity whom the Shin worshipped. Now, it’s identification with Taln becomes fairly obvious. Besides, the allusions that you mentioned, Taln is also referred to as ‘stone sinew’. Taravangian may have gotten this knowledge of the critical role of the Herald(s) in forestalling a new Desolation from the Shin masters who regarded themselves as the ‘true’ successors of the Heralds. We know that Taravangian was familiar with the Shin culture and language. We just don’t know when this knowledge was obtained.
“The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia.”
While the killing of Sadeas would be regarded by Western culture and Alethi society as a crime, there was a precedent for disregarding the matter in the latter. Sadeas had years earlier, prior to Gavilar’s kingship, deliberately provoked a duel with a high prince who opposed Gavilar in order to kill him. Elhokar or Dalinar (if Elhokar doesn’t resume his royal status) could pardon Adolin. While that remains to be seen, my assumption would be that Kaladin would excuse his new friend since he, too, hated Sadeas for his treatment of the bridge crews as well as his betrayal of Dalinar’s army at the Pinnacle. Shallan, as her father’s slayer in order to save Balat and the family from his murderous rage or revenge, would certainly understand Adolin’s act. The open question is how Dalinar would react.
I must echo the post @42 of stblst that i myself didn’t get that “the epigraph as “The Ancient of Stones” a.k.a. the Herald of War” referred to Taln. It does make sense but why are you so certain?
@41 – Shoot. All this talk about reflection and research in posting comments that I sometimes go on and on about (I can be slightly long winded :-P) and I totally forgot to actually research the term “cold-blooded” murder to make sure I was using it properly. After using the term in several posts by now, too. Bad KiManiak. Clearly I am not overly familiar with the types and labels of killing (although that is probably a good thing)…
Oh well; I’ll edit myself above, but I totally acknowledge that I used the wrong term several times now. Just plain ol’ murder should suffice…
@42 & 44 – We had a WoB at some point (I can look it up if you want, but I think I’ve got it right) that the theory regarding the Desolation starting when any one of the Heralds left Damnation was, in fact, correct. Since we know that Taln was the only one there this time around, and he’s associated with Stone in many ways, and it’s been “over four millenia” since the last Desolation… the connection seems too obvious to be anything else.
And now I’ll go look up that WoB, just for good measure…
Personally I always assumed the Diagram segment for this chapter referred to Taln myself, mostly because of the time period: as Alice pointed out above, “over four millenia” seems like a pretty significant clue, not much stuff coincides with that period of time (at least on Roshar specifically).
As to how Kaladin would react to finding out about Adolin’s actions at the end of the book…well…
OK, I was going to leave this until we actually reached this section, but a thought occurred to me a while back, in response to how often I’ve seen it come up in the comments where people wonder how various people will react to what Adolin did. And the thought is…what if Adolin gets off without anyone knowing but him and it doesn’t come up much at all? Now I know, it would probably be a shame for that to happen, but a lot of people basically consider murdering Sadeas clean-up anyways, I think it would be a decent subversion on Sanderson’s part if he just took care of Sadeas here with very little repercussions. Admittedly I feel like Adolin shouldn’t be able to get away from it (he took care of the obvious evidence yes but he happened to be last seen talking with Sadeas, that’s just super suspicious), but it might be more interesting for it to work out that way.
Of course now that I mention it, that might also be too close to how a certain Prophet was dealt with in the Wheel of Time…Eh, it’s an idea at least.
As for if there’s a parallel meant there, I think that is the case. Now, that doesn’t mean Sanderson is condemning Adolin for what he did – as people have mentioned, there are KR orders that would be fine with what he did. But we’re definitely supposed to see a connection and that at the very least it’s not an honorable thing (which is probably obvious but it doesn’t hurt for Sanderson to reinforce it here). And maybe more importantly, Moash was ultimately saved from going down that path…so redemption for him might not be as far away as people think. YMMV.
@46 Wetlandernw: Is this the WoB you were looking for?
But how would even a very intelligent Taravig.
… know that only Taln remained true to his oath and is still “in hell”?
and how would he know that that is preventing the next Desolation?
and how would he know that Taln “now” will soon break?
@49: This is part of my problems with T and his diagram, he must have access to a lot of information to make the guesses he did…My best guess was even before going to the Nightwatcher, the king of Kharbranth used the Palanaeum a lot. Jasnah was able to figure out what the Voidbringers were from perusing the historical archive after all, and the bigger reason it took her a while wasn’t just finding the evidence, but finding enough that she could be certain and potentially present it to her family to get policy changed. So Taravangian had an easier time in this regard: he didn’t need overwhelming proof, just enough to formulate his genius theories.
As to how that answers those specific questions:
-Taravangian knows about the cache of Honorblades the Shin has – this could involve which ones they have, so he would know Taln’s sword isn’t with the rest. From there it’s a fairly short leap to assume that Taln is the one who is somehow preventing the next Desolation: after all, he’s the only Herald who still has his sword if the Shin have the rest squirreled away. And as for Taln being about to break, my best bet is that Gavilar’s visions are his clue for that: if you use the Honorblades to assume Taln is the one still being a proper Herald and preventing the Desolation, someone receiving Stormfather messages about the world being doomed would logically be a sign that Taln is about to fail.
And that’s ignoring the possibility Taravangian knows the Heralds are about and doing stuff, which we don’t know either way, but the Heralds haven’t exactly been stealthy – most of them seem to be relying on people assuming that there’s no way this weird person who doesn’t slot nicely into their common knowledge of Roshar’s ethnicities is actually a super ancient Herald. And in fairness, that’s largely correct, unless you’re in one of the few secret organizations that makes that their business.
Nalan seems to think that Surgebinders are responsible for Desolation, at least partially. He knows a lot more than Taravangian does.
Nalan is also at least as crazy as Taravangian, I suspect he’s much crazier (Taravangian never had to suffer torture over and over again, unless there’s something we don’t know about him yet).
Do the Stone Shamans worship stone because the only Herald who is still doing his job is associated with stone?
I’ve always wanted to know if the Heralds were aware of one another during their torture. If they weren’t and were kept separate, then Taln’s suffering is all the more tragic. I know I would think that I could endure if the others were holding on too. That I could be pushed to greater longevity knowing that I would return as soon as one of my compatriots finally gave in. But they were never there so they never did. And being the “strongest” he holds until his mind starts to go. And now he’s not much used to anyone anymore.
I’ve wondered about that myself: revisiting the prologue with Kalak in The Way of Kings unfortunately doesn’t have anything that’s a solid hint, and I don’t know if any WoB has been said on the matter. My suspicion is that they didn’t: this would have ultimately favored Odium, since whichever one gave up would have anonymity for being the one to fail this time, so there would be less incentive to hold on (as you pointed out). This is just my gut instinct though – Kalak certainly feels a lot of shame for admitting he can’t go back, but that’s before Jezrien explains that most of them gave up on it.
I also wonder at why Taln was the one most likely to get himself killed (winning what looked like impossible to win battles). It’s possible he was just the Herald most resistant to the torture: after all, it seems like this last Desolation took the longest to happen based on how relatively advanced some countries became, so Taln lasted longer than whichever Heralds possibly broke earlier. It’s also possible he was the one who was simply most dedicated but still feared the torture: maybe he constantly got himself killed so he would never get the choice to not return, because he feared he would succumb (like the other 9 ultimately did).
Either way I think it’s hard to say until we get something else, because the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive does not answer that question.
@54 & 55: Wow – what a great theory. I too keep re-reading the WoK prologue, trying to see something I missed before.
Taln needs to meet Lift – maybe she could heal his mind with Progression / Regrowth. Would love to see that. Or maybe if he gets hold of Vedel’s Honorblade, that might do the trick? (I’m really, really hoping Eshonai’s mother is healed … I think watching my own mother struggling with dementia gave me a soft spot for her situation. Not a theory – just a hope.)
I smell the 4th ideal here. Brandon said that it was something not obvious that we might be able to figure out.
How about ‘the actions of others can not be measured by my standards, but I will protect them as long as it is the right thing to do’? Or something along these lines?