Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan located the Oathgate, Adolin made good use of a slain rock, and Kaladin struggled to stand between Elhokar and Moash. This week, Shallan begins to figure out the Oathgate, Adolin proves his dueling prowess, and Kaladin… Kaladin stands.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 84: The One Who Saves
Point of View: Shallan, Adolin, Kaladin
Setting: The Oathgate, the Central Plateau, the Pinnacle
Symbology: Spears, Jezrien
IN WHICH … Shallan’s team is stunned by ancient beauty; Renarin behaves strangely; Pattern warns of clashing storms; they gain a clue to activating the Oathgate; messengers are sent to bring the armies to the Gate.
… Adolin dances a duel with Eshonai; a storm approaches from the west; he sacrifices parts of his armor to maneuver her to the edge, then knocks her into the chasm, and is barely saved from following; he seeks his father and information; he finds Assassin in White.
… Kaladin is drained, but tries to defend Elhokar; Moash punches Kaladin, breaking bones and organs; Kaladin collapses, but hears a distant, familiar voice; he finally realizes why he must protect Elhokar; he stands again, though he cannot fight; he hears voices, arguing; he speaks Words; at Syl’s command, he stretches out his hand and she becomes a living Shardblade; all his powers return and he heals in an instant; Moash and Graves flee, but Graves drops an ominous hint from the Diagram on the way out.
Quote of the Week
May I please just copy half the chapter in here? Please?
The Words, Kaladin. That was Syl’s voice. You have to speak the Words!
I FORBID THIS.
YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!
“I will protect even those I hate,” Kaladin whispered through bloody lips. “So long as it is right.”
A Shardblade appeared in Moash’s hands.
A distant rumbling. Thunder.
THE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED, the Stormfather said reluctantly.
“Kaladin!” Syl’s voice. “Stretch forth thy hand!” She zipped around him, suddenly visible as a ribbon of light.
“I can’t…” Kaladin said, drained.
“Stretch forth thy hand!”
He reached out a trembling hand. Moash hesitated.
Wind blew in the opening in the wall, and Syl’s ribbon of light became mist, a form she often took. Silver mist, which grew larger, coalesced before Kaladin, extending into his hand.
Glowing, brilliant, a Shardblade emerged from the mist, vivid blue light shining from swirling patterns along its length.
Kaladin gasped a deep breath as if coming fully awake for the first time. The entire hallway went black as the Stormlight in every lamp down the length of the hall winked out.
For a moment, they stood in darkness.
Then Kaladin exploded with Light.
It erupted from his body, making him shine like a blazing white sun in the darkness. Moash backed away, face pale in the white brilliance, throwing up a hand to shade his eyes.
Pain evaporated like mist on a hot day. Kaladin’s grip firmed upon the glowing Shardblade, a weapon beside which those of Graves and Moash looked dull. One after another, shutters burst open up and down the hallway, wind screaming into the corridor. Behind Kaladin, frost crystalized on the ground, growing backward away from him. A glyph formed in the frost, almost in the shape of wings.
Graves screamed, falling in his haste to get away. Moash backed up, staring at Kaladin.
“The Knights Radiant,” Kaladin said softly, “have returned.”
Ahhhhhhh. This is another scene that never fails to elicit tears… because it’s so fulfilling after all the egocentric rationalization of the past umpteen chapters.
Also, yes. Yes, I did copy and paste that entire thing, even if it’s almost a quarter of my target word count. (Which, never fear, I shall completely ignore and go way over. Again.)
Off the Wall
111 825 101 112 712 491 512 101 011 141 021 511 711 210 111 217 134 483 111 071 514 254 143 410 916 149 149 341 212 254 101 012 512 710 151 910 111 234 125 511 525 121 575 511 123 410 111 291 512 106 153 4
—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 15
Translation*: “Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return.”
“Hold the secret…” implies that Taravangian knows that secret, right? Presumably, with the Palanaeum being the analog of the Library of Alexandria, Taravangian’s researches have given him the information he needed to work that out. (I can’t identify the right person to credit, but don’t I remember someone pointing that out recently?) It occurs to me that while genius-Taravangian understood the secret, there’s no guarantee that normal-Taravangian does, although he certainly might. Also, does anyone else think this secret seems likely to be “that wicked thing of eminence” which was discovered way back when?
“… broke the Knights Radiant” implies that the discovery which caused so much consternation was a single element of sufficient import to make all but one Order of Radiants abandon their oaths back then. I think.
“… to destroy the new orders when they return” has a couple of aspects to consider. One, it seems that the secret which caused such mass abandonment “back then” could be expected to have the same effect now—or at least genius-Taravangian thought it would. Two, he apparently thought it might be necessary to destroy the returning Radiants in order to save humanity. Why?
Looney half-baked not-even-thought-out theory: Is it possible that the “wicked thing of eminence” was the Splintering of Honor? Tell me why—or why not.
*Note: Needless to say, a whole lot of folks went nuts over this epigraph, trying to break the code. Sadly, it didn’t take the hive mind quite as long as Brandon had hoped… The key was the previous epigraph (Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1); each letter in pattern 15 is identified by the numerical position in which it first occurred in pattern 1. But I have no idea why genius Taravangian thought it was necessary to encrypt this bit. (Oh, and the groups of three digits are not in the text; it’s an artifact of copying from Kindle, and I left it that way so line breaks are less awkward.)
Commentary
Okay, I have to say, I feel really bad about this. Shallan and Adolin each have very cool stuff going on, but I just want to get their bits out of the way so we can talk about Kaladin. Sorry…
So we’ll take them in order. Shallan, artist that she is, has to forcibly remind herself that she’s not here to admire the ancient art. Perfectly preserved inside a building sealed for millennia with layers of crem, everything is still as beautiful as the day it was abandoned. Well, except the lamps, because of course the gemstones in them are dun. Nice for Shallan—a little study of the artwork is needed to figure out where to start.
Combining her various skills and her instincts, she identifies what looks like a large keyhole; with a little judicious testing by Renarin, she concludes that it’s made of the same stuff as a Shardblade. Unfortunately, nothing happens when Renarin inserts his Blade—beyond the keyhole reshaping itself to match the sword. Little details… You know.
In any case, she’s clearly found the Oathgate, so she sends soldiers off to fetch Dalinar & the armies, while she and the scholars try to figure out how to make the thing function. And there we leave her until next week.
Adolin, meanwhile, has found a fight much more to his liking than slaughtering semi-oblivious, singing Parshendi. He still feels no Thrill (!), but can sense it in Eshonai; whether that sensing is solely due to her observable eagerness for the kill, or if there’s another way he can recognize it, I don’t know. In any case, lack of Thrill doesn’t diminish his skill: using Windstance, he finesses Eshonai, shifting toward where he had originally crossed to this plateau. He thinks of her being “difficult to maneuver,” and yet he does so, isolating her from her army, his own soldiers keeping hers back from them and too busy to interfere.
Granted that she’s caught in the Thrill and perhaps not as clear-headed as she could be, Adolin’s dueling expertise shines in this scene. He transitions from Windstance to Flamestance, for the head game as much as for the physical fight… and it works. Sacrificing some critical parts of his Plate, he backs her right to the edge of the chasm—and knocks her in with a prime rugby tackle.
She’s probably not dead, though.
Fortunately for our handsome prince, he has fantastically dedicated guards—if they hadn’t been right there to grab him, he’d have followed her down… and he assuredly would not have survived the fall. But he does, and they were, and he didn’t. Whew.
By now, of course, the battle is total chaos, there’s a nasty-looking storm coming in from the west, and another from the east, so Adolin goes searching for Dalinar. Instead, he finds Szeth… and there we leave him. Until next week.
Back to the Pinnacle—in more ways than one! (And yes, I’m going to quote some more…)
Kaladin, bleeding, exhausted, barely able to stand on his wounded leg, attempts to use his spear as a weapon instead of a crutch; it’s not much against a Shardbearer. Moash, aside from being far too pigheaded for his own good, makes some foolish decisions along in here. I’m glad he does, of course, but objectively speaking, it really is stupid of him to yak for a while, punch Kaladin, and yak some more. Doesn’t he know he’s in a story, and you should never ever take time to yak when you’re confronting the protagonist? It always comes back to bite you.
So Moash and Graves waste their advantage, while Kaladin hears a familiar voice, very distant, yelling at someone. Syl? His thoughts return again to Fleet, and to the First Ideal:
“I ran until… until I couldn’t any longer,” Kaladin whispered. “End of… the race.”
Life before death.
He looks at the king, unconscious but alive, and he finally understands where he went wrong. He had thought that he could decide who to protect and who not to, based on whether or not he considered them worth protecting. His personal preferences had become his ultimate standards.
I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.
It made sense, now, why he’d had to make this choice. Kaladin rolled to his knees. Graves and Moash were arguing.
“I have to protect him,” Kaladin whispered.
Why?
“If I protect…” He coughed. “If I protect… only the people I like, it means that I don’t care about doing what is right.” If he did that, he only cared about what was convenient for himself.
That wasn’t protecting. That was selfishness.
That’s not the way of Windrunners; they don’t use their gifts to serve their own ends. So, powerless and shattered, he stands anyway, to defend what is right with his last breath.
It made sense now.
That was why he’d come back. It was about Tien, it was about Dalinar, and it was about what was right— but most of all, it was about protecting people.
This was the man he wanted to be.
Kaladin moved one foot back, touching his heel to the king, forming a battle stance. Then raised his hand before him, knife out. His hand shook like a roof rattling from thunder. He met Moash’s eyes.
Strength before weakness.
“You. Will. Not. Have. Him.”
…
Kaladin felt exhausted. At least he’d stood up.
It was the end. The journey had come and gone.
And here, at the destination, his journey finally turns back onto the path he’d abandoned. Before him, Moash and Graves argue about who’s doing what, and how to make it look like Szeth was responsible. But in his head, Kaladin hears another conversation, shouting, arguing, two familiar voices, a determined honorspren defying the Stormfather himself. Moash takes another moment to apologize for not killing Kaladin quickly in the first place—like he would have if he were a competent antagonist, but he’s not—and summons his Shardblade.
Now… go back to the QOTW and read it again, because it is so storming brilliant.
Meanwhile, I’ll sit over here and consider what this whole thing looked like from Moash’s perspective. My former leader/ally has now turned against me; he has no magic left, he’s badly injured—and I’ve just done him further injury, with that punch that was harder than intended; I’m reluctant to kill him, but know it needs to be done to protect my new allies; I’m torn between that knowledge and respect for a man who should be dying but won’t stop getting in the way. I hesitate again, because Kaladin is trying to speak… and all of a sudden, mist becomes a whole new kind of Shardblade that makes my shiny Blade look like a dull mockery, everything goes dark, and then Kaladin is too bright to look at, too strong to stand against… and clearly no longer injured.
I could almost feel sorry for Moash. And I probably will, later. But for now, this is a moment of brilliance—literally! I love the frost-formed glyph behind Kaladin; dead Blades are always dripping with condensation when they are first summoned, but a live Blade brings frost. It’s like… a live Blade takes everything we knew about Shardblades and makes it more so.
Graves, the weasel, screams like a little girl and falls over his own feet trying to get away. In true dastardly-villain style, he then starts cackling over how he’s outmaneuvered Kaladin despite everything—and in the process, gives Kaladin vital information which will enable him to defeat another of Graves’s own purposes. It always makes me roll my eyes a little in movies: all villains must go to the same training academy, where they are taught the necessity of telling the protagonist all their cunning plans before killing him… but I love it here. I don’t even care if it’s the most standard trope in all of fiction—I love it.
It reveals that we know something they got wrong in interpreting the Diagram… and Graves doesn’t know that Kaladin can fly. In the immortal words: “It ain’t over ‘til it’s over.”
Stormwatch
Day Zero, continued.
Sprenspotting
Sylphrena. Has. Returned.
Also, Pattern is aware of both the Everstorm and the highstorm, and that they will meet in a grand chaotic smash-up right here on this spot. And it will be very, very bad.
Ars Arcanum
Renarin dismissed his Blade, and oddly, as he did so, he let out a relieved sigh and relaxed against the outer wall of the building.
…
“It’s coming,” Renarin announced from the other side of the room, his quiet voice echoing across the domed chamber.
…
“Summon your Shardblade.”
He did so, wincing as it appeared.
Personally, I take the above as evidence, if not proof, that Renarin is indeed a valid Truthwatcher.
One, he hears the screaming of the dead spren, which we have thus far only seen happen to emerging Knights Radiant. Granted, the only person we know who is bonded to a Voidspren is Eshonai, and we don’t know whether the Parshendi would have the same reactions, but she doesn’t seem to have any trouble with her Blade. (Also: the quotations about Renarin & his Blade are blatant foreshadowing, in hindsight, but I’m pretty sure not many people picked up on it the first time through.)
Two, (and this is the Arcanum part) he really does see the future, which—despite Vorin tradition—is a known attribute of Cultivation. If the Honor-Cultivation-spectrum theory of sapient spren is correct, Truthwatchers would be most fully the spren of Cultivation, as the Stormfather is most fully the spren of Honor. In that light, I think it makes sense to accept that Renarin really is a Truthwatcher.
Your mileage may, of course, vary. I know many readers are still skeptical about Renarin’s claim to be a Truthwatcher, and I’m sure all the evidence could reflect a Voidspren bond instead of a whatever-Truthwatcher-spren-call-themselves bond. (We really need to pry more names out of Brandon someday.) Perhaps Oathbringer will give us more information.
Ars Mechanica
“See if you can find a chunk of my helm or forearm piece. Regrowing the armor will go faster if we’ve got a seed…”
We already knew this, to some extent, but this is the only time pieces of the broken Plate are referred to as seeds. This very much makes me wonder all over again just exactly how Shardplate works. It’s certainly not a normal fabrial; there are no spren trapped in gemstones making it work. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t spren involved, though…
Heraldic Symbolism
Jezrien: King; Protecting/Leading; Windrunners. All present here, although Elhokar is a pretty poor representation of a king. Kaladin makes up for it, protecting even the one he hates—and leveling up as a Windrunner in the process. I also find it mildly amusing that the “Body Focus” associated with Jezrien is “Inhalation”…
Kaladin gasped a deep breath as if coming fully awake for the first time. The entire hallway went black as the Stormlight in every lamp down the length of the hall winked out.
It’s hardly unique to Windrunners, but it’s still funny.
Wow. That is all. Tune in again next week, when the fighting takes another turn and the Avalanche continues.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, and for once she’s run out of things to say.
The most goosepimply section of any goosepimply book that ever goosepimply existed.
Goosepimple.
Five Gods, Kal, you go from rock bottom to towering heights pretty damn fast.
It’s almost like he can ignore gravity.
Kaladin: demonstrating an appropriate understanding of saving that level-up heal/buff for just the right moment.
Great chapter.
“Now… go back to the QOTW and read it again, because it is so storming brilliant.”
Am I the only one who read that line without even batting an eye? It was only later that I realized that “storming” was part of the fictional lexicon – it just flows so naturally in my mind!
Has anyone ever asked Brandon whether void spren and/or those bonded to them have access to Stormlight (or Voidlight or somesuch)? If Renarin did have a Voidspren and not a Truthwatcher spren, how could his eyes heal?
One thing that always bothers me about this chapter: if Adolin is such a great duelist, why does he need to resort to a dirty trick to defeat Eshonai?
Chills… of happiness… such a moment of hallelujah!
Defiantly a moment I want to see on the big screen. I haven’t yet seen an art work of the exact moment when the glyph forms… maybe soon.
Oh how I wish more people understood this ideal.
More latter, stupid work meeting…
@5: because a formal duel operates under rules. Battle for your life – does not. Plus, he’s already tired from hours of battle already. You are not at peak fighting ability hours in. Dirty tricks can be very effective at ending the battle faster.
@7 Indeed. If he wasn’t cheating, he wasn’t trying.
I don’t see any reason not to take Renarin at his word right now. The signs look correct and the choice of Truthwatchers for Renarin seems very deliberate. It’s an order we know very little about and its nature puts it in direct conflict with deeply-held Vorin beliefs. And it’s in keeping with Renarin’s theme of being outside most Alethi norms.
I was never very big on heaping blame on Kaladin for his arc throughout the book. His motivations are very understandable and his struggles with morality needn’t be framed as first Kaladin was wrong, and then he was right. The moral framework required of Windrunners by Honorspren is far from the only valid take.
Each of the 10 orders has different moral goals and priorities, which look primed to come into conflict if Odium is not there to provide a common enemy. I suspect that played a key role in their downfall.
Nazrax @5. Adolin has been fighting for many hours without much rest. I do not believe Eshonai actively fought since the battle began. If she had participated, I am guessing it was not nearly to the same extent as Adolin. Based on what we have seen of Eshonai so far, we know that she is a good fighter in her own right. Combine her skills with he Stormform along with being relatively fresh (at least compared to Adolin), and it is understandable why Adolin had to resort to a “dirty trick” to defeat Eshonai.
That said, I do not agree that Adolin used a “dirty trick.” He was not fighting a duel with rules. He was participating in a battle. Both Adolin and Eshonai were intending on killing the other. In war, I you do what you have to survive. IMO (as I have never been in active combat), there is no such thing as a “dirty trick.”
(I see that Braid_Tug @7 and noblehunter @8 made the same point first.)
My once compliant with Brandon’s writing in the Kaladin scene in Chapter 84 is Syl’s use of the word “thy.” Why did Brandon feel the need to have her talk in “classical” type of syntax. Throughout SA, I do not believe Syl has talked that way before. If I am correct, then why does she have to do so in this scene. IMO, Syl saying “stretch forth your hand” would have been just as poignant and dramatic. I do not believe Brandon had to have Syl change her syntax.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Oy. Sorry about the typos and forgotten quote indentations… Anyone would think I was half asleep when I was editing! I think I fixed most of them now.
I love seeing that so many others had the same reactions I did to this section. First time through, I’m not convinced I actually breathed for about three pages… This was such an amazing scene I go all breathless again just thinking about it.
@@.-@ – I know, right? It comes so easily to use in-world expressions after while. :) Also: I think Iguacu Falls has to be just about the most stunning place on the planet. What’s your connection?
I’ve often said that Sanderson is one of the most visual writers of those I love, and the scene you quoted was a great example… the winking out of the lights in the hallway, and Kaladin “explod[ing] with light” was such a perfect image, gets me every time.
@10 AndrewHB
Syl’s ‘thy’ stuck out a little, but it made sense to me. It came across as an invocation of an ancient ceremony. Maybe this line was normally spoken to an initiate taking the third Windrunner oath in front of a gathering of other knights. Maybe it’s not even normally spoken by the spren.
Halien @9 – I’m sure I sounded like I was heaping blame on Kaladin in earlier chapters, and in a way I suppose I was, because he was clearly making wrong deciscions by Windrunner/honorspren standards. That said, his decisions were always humanly understandable – which is part of what made them so frustrating for me. If you’re a moral-relativist, his earlier decisions would be completely defensible, too. Personally, I would say that at the very least, they were wrong for him because he has acknowledged an external moral standard, and then refused to live by it when it wasn’t convenient. But yes, the different standards of the different Orders makes a certain amount of conflict seem inevitable, doesn’t it?
Andrew @10 – Well, I can only say that Brandon’s use of “thy” was very deliberate. The beta readers were divided on whether it “worked” or not: some felt (like you) that it was just too out of place and awkward in its antiquated feel; others felt that it fit the idea of a millennia-old formal ritual, harking back to the long-long-long-ago times of the last Knights Radiant, which Syl can remember more clearly as Kaladin progresses. Everyone tossed their ideas into the ring uh, beta spreadsheet… and Brandon chose to leave it in.
10. AndrewHB – ‘… Syl’s use of the word “thy.”’
The use of the word “thy” and the frost glyph of wings both pulled me out of the story, because they were just too overly dramatic. I stopped and kind of rolled my eyes. I have noticed this a few other times in Sanderson novels, specifically a few times in the Mistborn novels. It is like he is trying to draw the perfect fantastical movie poster snapshot at the height of the climax. It is just too much. Kind of like an Avenger movie when in the middle of the action, we get a slow motion shot of all the heroes crouched on the ground as if posing for a picture. It just is too much for my tastes.
That being said, it is a great chapter with some great action. It is so satisfying when Moash and Graves run away. I did like that part.
@11 – I lived in southern Brasil for a couple of years and spent about 3 days wandering the Falls before returning home. I have a hard time imagining a more amazing locale. Once Al Gore finally got around to inventing the internet, I snagged it as my handle and never let go.
For the record, as a long-time fantasy reader – this chapter is the first chapter of any book ever that made me giddy with excitement. I’ve had books make me emotional, pensive, happy, etc, but when Kaladin suddenly becomes a superhero in the full sense of the word – holy WOW! And the rest of the battle was so visually entertaining – It was like it was in 4k, Dolby Atmos – 3D in my storming head!
iguacufalls @16 said “Once Al Gore finally got around to inventing the internet, … .” Great reference to American politics circa 1999.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
My favorite chapter in the whole book!!
Also I honestly can’t blame Kaladin for his choices earlier judging by the mindset he is generally in. Still, though, it is completely blows me away every time I read this chapter.
@14. Wetlandernw – Interesting that the use of the word “Thy” was a point of debate among the beta readers. I would have thought that would have been enough to get it changed. Is the use of a new word really what a reader should be noticing during the pinnacle of the climax? I think it would not have been so jarring if it had been used before, such as during one of Dalinar’s visions. Please correct me if I am wrong and it was used somewhere else.
My. Favorite. Chapter. Ever. In the entire history of books. Unless it’s the chapter that follows.
Kaladin gets it! And when he gets it…he gets some pretty awesome things to go along with, you know, it.
@2 ;)
It’s interesting to think of what Kaladin and Jasnah would have to say to each other about right and wrong…
Woohoo, another amazing reread! This chapter is one of my personal favourites, and I have been waiting anxiously for your reread to reach this point — tears and shivers indeed!
Thank you Alice! Love your rereads as always :)
@14 Wetlandernw
Good points. Even when we have different takes on Kaladin’s character development, I appreciate your thought-provoking reread articles.
I read Kaladin’s arc as more of a struggle to decide which moral system he prefers, one from inside himself or the one Syl is offering. Syl’s morality is difficult for me to accept as a standard for early-story Kaladin because much if it has to be remembered or discovered instead of taught. The battle against Odium requires him to make a particular decision and that ratchets up the tension.
Syl sometimes comes across as imposing expectations that Kaladin hasn’t yet agreed to fulfill. There’s a slight aspect of coercion to it because he’s not making a fully informed choice. That’s my major reservation about the way his relationship with Syl evolves.
By the end of WoR, Kaladin is fully onboard with the Windrunner morality and he ‘gets’ it for the first time. The bond isn’t something that can be taken away by an outside force and it lets him do what he’s struggled to do his entire life – protect people.
If the keyhole is the same material as the Shardblades, does that mean it is a spren?
The Parshendi bonding doesn’t seem to interfere with using a Shardblade. Eshonai was bonded to a non-Odium spren before and had no problem with her Blade.
What does the glyph that appeared behind Kaladin mean? Is it the Windrunner glyph?
Tim Berners-Lee invented the internet, not Al Gore.
@17 – well, my thoughts on American politics circa 2016 aren’t fit for print, so I just went back to the joke that keeps on giving. :)
He is mine! I claim him.
Pretty much any time I open WoR, I’ll find myself reading this scene. And it never fails make me misty (including once while listening to the audiobook while running on a treadmill, which almost turned into an amusing pratfall).
And as proud as Kaladin makes us here, how about Syl? After everything Kal has put her through, she still believes in him, to the point of defying her god and STEALING HIS FONT!
It does make me wonder, are the spren ever wrong? What if Kaladin couldn’t be the person Syl believed in? Can a spren cut bait on a proto Radiant?
@@@@@22. Halien – Interesting thoughts on having to pick between two moral systems. On the idea that, “There’s a slight aspect of coercion to it because he’s not making a fully informed choice.” I think coercion is exactly what Syl is trying to avoid. She cannot tell Kaladin explicitly that in order for their bond to work he must chose an absolute moral system. If Kaladin makes the choice in order to be with Syl or in order to become a Radiant or even to save himself then it will not work. He must chose “the right” because he believes it is right. Sometimes too much knowledge of what the result of a choice will be corrupts the choice. Can you do “right” for the rewards it brings? Can you truly Love someone if you KNOW they will Love you in return?
@23 Birgit – Just looked it up – It’s Shallan who declares that the Keyhole is “the same stuff”, presumably as the shardblade is what she means (though she doesn’t say the same as what). Now, given Sanderson’s penchant for having characters make erroneous assumptions, etc – I don’t know if we should trust Shallan to know intuitively that the keyhole is made of the same stuff as a blade, and thus infer that it is a spren.
Earlier, she questions if it is steel – meaning, it must look like steel, but perhaps a little bit off. It makes me wonder if it is aluminum or some alloy thereof that can resist the powers of the shardblades – remember the “metal guards” from Chap 18 – Kaladin asks Zahel what it is and he says “Nobody’s sure” but also explains: “Fit it to the edges of a Blade, and it will adapt to the shape of the Weapon and make it safely blunt. Off the weapons, they break surprisingly easily. Useless in a fight on their own. Perfect for training though.”
I initially thought they were just thin aluminum (as an investiture resistant substance) but there does seem to be something more going on that they can adapt to a shape of a shardblade. But still, dollars to donuts, I would bet that the protective strips and the keyhole are made of the same substance, and probably, I would again bet, given the amount of info we have at the moment, is related to aluminum in some way and isn’t made of dead spren body. My $0.02 at least.
(Here’s to me being proven wrong, either by another commentator or by Brandon in Book #3)
This chapter. Yes; we are finally here! Thanks for the post Alice.
You really could have quoted about half of this chapter and it would have been fine with me. I am glad you went over your targeted word count; do it anytime you are so led!
A few favorite quotes:
The “thy hand” part makes it seem like it is some type of ritual or process. Like Kaladin had to say the words and Syl had to answer with the ceremonial words to complete the ritual.
I just love the wording here. That is all.
I found this section noteworthy the first time I read it and each time since. Like Alice, I noted the contrast between a Radiant Shardblade and a dead Shardblade in respect to the condensation that forms around it, but I think there may be more to it. I feel like Brandon dropped this in here as just a quick aside that folks may barely notice now; but he will (I hope) later explore in more detail the manifestation of the glyph in the frost and its relation to Radiants and oaths in more detail in future books.
Re: Renarin being a Truthwatcher – I’m sure we’ll get into this in more detail in a few chapters, but I will continue to be one of those that urges caution regarding accepting Renarin being a Truthwatcher as a given/fact. I agree that there is overwhelming evidence that Renarin is not a normal human, and is likely bonded to some type of spren, but that does not mean that he is a Truthwatcher. (I appreciate the distinction between evidence and proof that Alice make,s and would encourage the reader to reflect on what exactly we have evidence of.) I do get why Alice and others choose to view Renarin as a Truthwatcher; I just urge caution before accepting it as a foregone conclusion until we are provided with actual in-book (hopefully in Oathbringer) proof.
Alright, gotta read the comments now…
Okay, this did not happen when I first read it… but on a reread I had a sudden Neverending Story moment.
My name Bastian! Say my name!!!
Re: Adolin – his fight was good. His bridgemen, this was an even greater moment for them. Glad he’s already going to give them a raise already.
@23: Keyhole – a spren? I hope not. To be stuck in one place the whole time like that? Maybe a dumb spren, so more like the Shardplate? Plate also forms around the person wearing it, so there is a connection. So invested in some manner, but not sure how. Like @27: fingers crossed for more answers in book 3. One more year… sigh.
I’m reminded of stone hardness when the two don’t scratch.
I have to disappear for a while, but for anyone who has the ebook for TWoK, please do a search for “frost” and see how many times it is associated with using large amounts of Stormlight. I don’t know quite what the connection is, but there definitely is one. We don’t see it so much in WoR, but just the TWoK prologue is worth a good look for everyone.
@30 I have the nagging feeling there’s another Cosmere reference to mystically appearing frost but I can’t remember what it is.
“You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return.”
Is the Diagram indicating that the new orders of Radiants will not necessarily be the same as the old, or am I just reading too much into the wording.
Excellent! The chapter where Kaladin puts the Radiant in Knights Radiant. This seems like a good spot to throw in my partially-formed theory.
My theory involves the name Knights Radiant. One obvious reason for that name is that the Knights Radiant glow with stormlight -> radiate.
I think that there may be more to the name. Brandon loves double meanings and ties into science. “Radiant” has other meanings that are not directly related to light. One of those meanings is a point from which something radiate outward . (The case I am familiar with is radiant is the name for the point in the sky from which meteors in a meteor shower appear to be originating.)
So on Roshar, what do we know of that radiates out of a point? High storms radiate out of the Origin!
We don’t know much about the Origin yet, other than somehow it is important to Rosharian magic, since the high storms bring stormlight.
My theory is that one of the jobs of the Knights Radiant is to protect the Origin (Radiant). Or maybe it is just a name (like the Knights of the Round Table) to signify that they stand with the source of the High Storms, as opposed to the source of the Everstorm (whatever that origin is named).
So what do you think of my theory?
@30 I see 8 references to “frost” of vaious sort in TWoK. Three are in the Prologue (p 25, 27, and 33) associated with Szeth.
One is to “frostnip” on p 554, when Kaladin was hung out in the storm.
On p782, we have “frosted” when Dalinar summons Oathbringer.
On p837, Kaladin gets frost on his finger when pulling stormlight from a sphere while experimenting with stormlight.
On p841, Kaldin gets frost on his arm, just after whispering the first ideal.
On p870, Kaladin gets more frost on his skin after healing a wound caused by a shield during a bridge run.
Cold is a lack of energy. I interpreted the frost as a side effect of drawing a lot of Stormlight at once.
Tonight I keep getting a DNS resolution error when trying to load Tor pages.
As for “frost”, I think we need to remember the context. Both Szeth and Kaladin are using Windrunner Surges, which include the ability to manipulate atmospheric pressure. When you quickly reduce the pressure of a gas, it drops in temperature. That could explain the similarities between the two when they use Stormlight.
As for any link to frost with Oathbringer, which I don’t remember so I will take Crumley’s word for it, we don’t know what order Oathbringer belonged to. It is possible that Oathbringer is a dead honorspren, in which case it would parallel Syl’s and Jezrien’s Honorblade’s connection to Windrunner Surges, and thus to a frost effect.
So–crazy theory, but the law of conservation of energy says energy (thermal, kinetic, chemical) can’t be destroyed, it can only be transformed. Could Kaladin/Szeth be drawing thermal energy from the environment and converting it into investiture in the exact same way Lyft takes chemical energy from food.
I liked the use of the word thy. I though it was perfect for that scene – A suggestion such as strech forth your hand isn’t as dramatic, it seems much weaker. Regarding the gylph – does that mean gylphs are more than just writing – as in, they weren’t invented, they were discovered. THis isn’t the only time a gylph forms when a live shardblade is summoned so I’m sort of curious what gylph it actually was and how magic makes magic writing.
Sylphrena’s morality continues to be a self-centered and line of sight version.
Why is Elhokar someone KAladin has to protect even though he hates him, but the Parshendi/shardbearers in Adolin’s duel/Szeth/Moash aren’t?
To me, Windrunners seem to be completely locked into fealty. They have to clearly define Good Guys and Bad Guys; if they act against Good Guys (even for perfectly valid and defensible reasons!) they lose their powers.
And it’s all made worse by the fact that Sylphrena can’t articulate anything, so Kaladin’s powers continue to be held hostage by an unpredictable “honor” system that can’t be identified until it’s broken.
This is why I like Pattern. He’s straightforward.
This chapter resonates with Matthew 5:6. It’s beautiful. Dikaiosynē can be translated broadly as integrity and more narrowly (perhaps more appropriately) as justice, the giving of each one their due (equal standards for all). When done well it results in true satisfaction. In other words, not applying it when it’s merely convenient.
Whew! finally here! Had a long day at work and did not even had time to read this during. Lunch.
Most of my opinions had been mentioned, I will not repeat. Thanks Alice, Braid Tug and Birgit. Your posts got me thinking and also made thing s clear for me,
Re use of THY – I like it. It made the saying of the oath as very old ceremony. It’s like saying things in Latin. J.K. Rowlings did that a lot in Harry Potter when using magic.Used a lot of Anglicized Latin.
and to echo a comment here – goosebumps! And like Alice, I always cry when I get to this chapter.
@39 Elhokar cannot defend himself, the others could.
Pattern, lover of lies is more straightforward? Ok. I don’t agree but YMMV. On the use of Thy, I liked it. It had the sound of an ancient ritual but to me it also sounded OFFICIAL, like this wasn’t some run of the mill occurence. And look at all her speech as she speaks to the Stormfather. It’s as if Syl is her true self for the first time in a very long time. Serious business and all that.
Regarding Renarin and Truthwatching, it kinda has me thinking about order progression in general. Does every order get the same boosts at the same levels? Do the Spren gain more of their sentience at the same rate? Renarin’s eyesight heals but he cannot summon Glys as Shardblade; seems obvious that he has only spoken the First Ideal. But what about Jasnah, Kaladin and Shallan, who at the end of WOR seem to be at the same level? We don’t know what Jasnah can do as far as blade summoning, just that she’s mastered one of her surges and seems well on her way to mastery of the second. Kaladin is so amazing with his utterance of the 3rd ideal that it seems hardly possible to know how high he can reach, but note that before he said the words he couldn’t make Syl turn Shardsphere. Meanwhile Shallan was able to summon Pattern after her First Ideal, probably before she spoke her first truth. Shallan got her blade faster but has only one reliable surge. Kaladin has both Surges working together well but wasn’t able to Summon or give Squire Strength till the end of WOR. Jasnah probably still cannot summon but she is skilled in both her surges. Did the Heralds determine who gets what power as they progress or the Shards?
When the Spren get formal, something amazing or terrible, sometimes both, is fixin to happen. IIRC, Pattern got formal when breaking Shallan’s mindblock too, though he didn’t go FULL CAPS with it.
Lastly, downplaying Adolin’s skill as a duelist because of what he had to do to win his one-on-one with Stormform Esshontai insults both characters. There are very few people whom have won Plate and Blade that weren’t hellafied fighters. They were pretty closely matched to begin with. Adolin is probably better if they were both fresh but not by a huge margin. But they were not. Add to the fact that Esshontai had her multiplier on and Adolin did not, she was better. She lost because Adolin realized she was better on that day so fighting straight up would not work. This actually highlights his skills because he recognized it in the middle of a life/death battle and was able to adjust strategies while still making it seem to Esshontai’s admittedly berzerkerfied mind like he was being bested. That’s remarkably difficult to do. Any lesser fighter gets cut in half by Esshontai.
EvilMoneky @43 – thanks for the Adolin comment!
Did anyone else think of Elantris when the glyph appeared? I’m thinking there has to be some sort of connection.
Great job as usual, Alice.
It seems clear to me that some time must have passed since the Stormfather told Dalinar he is bringing a storm to wash away the corpses and he has to go because “a daughter disobeys”, to now, when Syl claims Kaladin as hers and gets him to “say the words”. We don’t know how much time has passed, but we do know there has been enough time for the highstorm to travel all the way from the Origin to be approaching the shattered plains. So what does the Stormfather mean by a daughter disobeys? What was Syl doing before the storm started on its journey that he considered disobedient?
I can envision Syl somehow twigging to the fact that Kaladin is finally acting according to his vows, and watching with bated breath as he kills the two conspirator door guards, leads the king away from his rooms, and tries to protect the king even as Moash and Graves arrive to finish off Elhokar. Which suggests that she must have been ordered to ignore Kaladin, to “go on with her life” as if Kaladin no longer existed, and the Stormfather considered her continuing to watch over Kaladin as disobedient.
This raises a whole host of questions …. how is the honorspren society organized? It is like a family where the Stormfather acts as a stern parent to all the honorspren? Has Syl been watching Kaladin all this time in defiance of the Stormfather, or was it a deus ex machina coincidence that she just happened to be sneaking a peek this one time when it really mattered? …
This chapter is splendid, basically everything I wanted from a sequel to The Way of Kings and more. And it honestly does feel a bit unfair to have important Adolin and Shallan segments, when they need to sit along one of the most powerful sequences Sanderson has ever written. Just, so much of it is perfect: the imagery, how it brings together Kaladin’s arc from this book, bringing back a “dead” character right, just so much of it is GREAT. Going into Words of Radiance for the first time, I had the hope that Kaladin would have another amazing segment where he realized an oath, but I was not prepared for just how amazing it was, and even on subsequent rereads I’m still not. And that’s even though I am in the camp where the use of “thy” from Syl throws me off: I understand it’s part of the formality of the magic, but it is a tiny necessary blight in what otherwise reads as a flawless sequence to me. And it is forgiven for the earlier part where Syl SPEAKS IN ALL CAPS: it’s hard to remember that she is a shard of the god until that moment when she speaks back to one, refusing him because Kaladin is hers.
<takes a calming breath>
Just gets me emotional every time. FWIW, I would argue Syl isn’t enforcing her morality on Kaladin: I fully accept I could be wrong and that there is an honorspren rule book out there for what their Windrunners need to be, but Kaladin’s struggle here is to work past his legitimate and illegitimate gripes with how the world works to be the person he wants to be. Kaladin wants to be this figure in alignment with Honor: it’s his own judgment that it’s selfish if you protect someone only because you yourself want to. Kaladin has just led a hard life that has constantly punished him for this, and he is realistically super reluctant to commit this fully to what is ultimately a path he realizes has its own issues and could get him hurt again. This path he’s choosing is not only hard, it’s one where sometimes he needs to make decisions he doesn’t like…but deep down he’ll regret not making them. Zahel and Kaladin have both said it, but he wants to make the choices that’ll let him sleep at night, which aren’t necessarily either the ones he likes or even the “best” ones: they’re just the choices that belong to the person Kaladin wants to be the most. And I don’t think that’s necessarily how all Windrunners will be – but that’s how Kaladin wants to be as a Windrunner, and that’s why Syl had to wait on him to work it out.
It’s not that Kaladin doesn’t realize there are pragmatic needs that must be met: it’s that deep down he wants to be the kind of person who can ignore that need. Which a lot of people probably aren’t happy about, but there are other orders that will appeal to those individuals.
Besides Kaladin’s awesomeness, the rest of the chapter is good as well, just super overshadowed. Although Shallan’s not as overt as it is about Kaladin, it’s good to see that she still needs to consciously avoid letting her scholarly mind distract her from frantic issues (like armies outside that need her to figure this stuff out quickly). Renarin is giving out fairly obvious hints of what he is (or well, that he can claim to be) that are much easier to miss that first frantic reading when you’re in the middle of Sanderson’s infamous avalanche. And then Adolin gets what would be a super notable fight in any other chapter: personally I have no issues with how he defeats Eshonai. Even ignoring where Adolin’s path will take him in regards to Honor/Cultivation, this isn’t a proper duel and there’s a lot of things going on here – but regardless, part of any fight is working within the terrain. Eshonai didn’t pay attention to her surroundings (most likely because she’s basically berserking like people have pointed out), so she paid by being able to be pushed off. And, while it doesn’t match to any of Kaladin’s stuff, I really like how Adolin would have also fallen in because of his gambit…except Bridge 4 saves him. It’s a nice use of a rather basic trope: the hero side being saved because it fosters unity and working together when the bad guy side doesn’t get that because they’re generally selfish. And then right when Adolin could get a deserved break, Szeth shows up, which just feels unlucky for Adolin.
And I guess a final note: until Alice mentioned it and I reread this section for what is probably the umpteenth time, I never thought of Graves last little bit at the end as him doing the classical villain taunt to Kaladin. I always figured it was him basically babbling in surprised terror at what happened at Kaladin. He’s not mocking Kaladin for being incapable of saving Dalinar even after becoming a Knight Radiant; he’s just speaking out loud his train of thought when he was shocked by the mistake he made. So the “too late” is him condemning himself for not realizing they’re pushing Kaladin into his level up, instead of saying Kaladin won’t make it in time.
But well, looking at it now, I think Alice is reading it the way it’s meant. I just made the classic mistake of forgetting Graves doesn’t know Kaladin is one of the few KR orders that can get to Dalinar pretty quickly, so villainous taunting makes more sense.
Edit: Also, I did bring up Taravangian having access to the Palanaeum in the comments last chapter, as the comments section basically died right around when we were discussing how T could know as much as he did in the Diagram.
Re: Syl and her nick of time rescue.
The way I saw it (keep in mind that I have no textual evidence to support this), I believe that there’s a resonance or affinity when a bond is made, similar to the one that must be present pre-bonding, or else how would the Spren find their potential Radient? Broken bond, but for a time you can still feel what was missing, kinda like when someone loses a limb but still feels the appendage. I imagine that echo is stronger in the Cognitive Realm where all Spren live. As Kaladin begins healing, becoming more in phase with the ideals that make him a Windrunner, that resonance grows louder, loud enough for her to investigate. Syl sees the bond start to rebuild on each side of the break and stands watch. She notices that her sentience isn’t leaking away anymore. Before Amaram, Kal was already near to leveling up so she knows it’s in him to rise. And so she watches, waiting for a moment when she can reinitiate the bond. As it gets to the point where the bond is sustainable again and Syl can enter the Physical Realm without going stupid, the Stormfather tries to intervene but Syl invokes the rulebook by which they all are bound. Or, more simply, the bond was never broken and Stormfather lied. The bond was still intact, just too weak to transfer power. After awhile Kal had just stopped trying to access, having resigned himself to being powerless and normal. Maybe he built up a block, WOT style and Syl disobeyed by trying to break it down after seeing Kaladin start comming back Honorside.
EvilMonkey @43: I believe Brandon has said that Shallan has said more ideals than Kaladin. She just refused to remember them. Her bond has also suffered.
Anybody got a WOB on this? I may be recalling it wrong but I thought I saw it that they were on the same level. We of course have no way to know yet what Jasnah’s level is other than speculation.
#48 @EvilMonkey – that’s as good a theory as any until Brandon chooses to explain. It matches what we know and I don’t see any obvious contradictions.
#36 @Kadari – The atmospheric pressure factor is an excellent point.
#Many – The use of “thy” didn’t disrupt the scene for me. It fit the mood. As for the frost glyph, I think that was Syl showing off and being overly dramatic. Or perfectly dramatic. It worked.
@39 I don’t think Kaladin loses his powers because Elhokar is a Good guy according to some unknowable truth. I think it’s because Kaladin accepted the job of protecting Elhokar, who cannot protect himself, then decided not to when Elhokar pissed him off. Kaladin chooses not to honor the commitment he freely made (remember that Dalinar offered to let him walk in TWoK). The consequences don’t seem unpredictable or mysterious to me.
Well played, Mr. Sanderson!!!
I dunno if this is my all-time favorite chapter in the book, but it’s definitely in the top 2 or 3. Love it! Except for that dang coded epigraph that I couldn’t figure out. Thanks to the cryptographers on 17th Shard for the decoded version.
Like birgit @23, I want to know more about the material-sciencey aspects of Shardblades and Oathgate key holes.
And I found Pattern’s 1-paragraph POV quite endearing (And it will be very, very bad.).
Finally, the glyph in the frost behind Kaladin must be a Windrunner glyph, yes? Resembling wings. I haven’t read all the comments in detail yet–apologizes if someone already pointed that out.
@53, Ways: I always thought the glyph that forms behind Kaladin is the “official team logo” for the Windrunners.
On my first personal re-read of this section, the formation of the glyph here reminded me of the huge glyph Navani painted and burned for Dalinar when she thought he was dead after The Tower. In-story, the formation of each is very powerful.
Regarding the glyph of frost:
Rosharan writing is bilaterally symmetrical, both the glyphs and the women’s alphabet. It could be that the glyph formed by the frost (and any others formed by the blades of other orders) are natural phenomenon which are the origin of that writing system, rather than a reflection of it?
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the glyph in the next chapter:
And that, itself, is very similar to what happened in the Way of Kings in chapter 59 when he drops from under the bridge:
This time, there’s no glyph, but it does specifically mention the “jolt of coldness.”
Real Life and fiction collide in this monumental news:
Drone and satellite imagery lead to monumental discovery at Petra
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/06/09/drone-and-satellite-imagery-lead-to-monumental-discovery-at-petra.html
This made me think of how Shallan found the Oathgate.
And since Brandon wrote WoR several years back, this is real life imitating fiction. :-)
Sorry if this is jarring to a very serious discussion. I just can’t help myself.
@55 That sounds reasonable to me. Especially given how the old cities were laid out according to natural patterns.
Which makes me think we haven’t spent enough time thinking about how waves might play into Rosharan physics/magic.
One of the great self-aware movies: the Incredibles (pixar), where more than once the evil dude stops and says “you got me monologuing!!”. As you say, used almost to death yet still effective.
I was sick all day yesterday, so I missed this posting . . . which is a shame. Because I’ve been waiting ALL OF THE TIME for this one.
I feel like we really see Mr. Sanderson’s gift for cinematic writing in Kaladin’s awakening to his full power. This scene almost feels like something you’d see in an anime — all of the background drops out for a moment, the character stands in blackness with a ribbon of light swirling around him while he speaks and the spirits argue, then he says the right thing and SLAM back in the real world where he’s glowing and surrounded by a glyph formed of frost.
Chills. Every time.
Are the glyphs (or the Dawnchant) cymatic patterns like the cities?
Windrunner:
here is the “wing like glyph” I believe appears behind Kaladin. It’s the symbol for the Windrunners. Bless Issac for his art. :-D
Jezrien
@56: I believe the sword glyph we will see next week is Jezrien’s symbol.
So far, we only have the glyphs for 6 of 10 Heralds.
@49: It’s not that Shallan has said more ideals. Her order only says the First ideal. She deepens her bond and knowledge via “Truths.” Her period of suppressed memory did hurt the bond. After her encounter at the end of Book 2, she might be a KR very early in Book 3.
Each order operates differently.
Brandon even said at the JordanCon signing that we will start to see others say the Ideals we are familiar with using different words.
The exact wording is not as important as the understanding of the meaning of the Ideal. I’m really looking forward to seeing that.
Another thing he said was that “Power balancing” magic systems was for RPG games. he’s made not attempt to balance his magic systems. I have to wonder if this applies to the KR orders as well.
Do we an idea of which Orders created the various stances for fighting?
Coppermind had the below to stay about Flamestance:
But that doesn’t let me know which group might have developed it. I’m left assuming the Windrunners developed Windstance, but that’s based only on the use of wind. Names could have drifted since the destruction of the KR.
Before I forget, again:
Bless the decoders of the numbers! When I ran into the numbers, I cursed. But by the time I was finished with the book and went searching for help with the decoding – it was already done. Thus Alice’s comment about the fans being much faster than Brandon expected. :-D Took them less than a week? Maybe 2?
But yes, learning what destroyed them originally and why the Diagram wants to destroy them again will be an interesting journey. I just hope it doesn’t take until book 10 to find the answer.
@40: Thanks for the verse. It is a very nice parallel.
I can easily imagine the Windrunner glyph as a pair of wings or a sword, and I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suppose the 10 basic glyphs are somehow linked to Dawnchant. IIRC, those 10 glyphs represent the Honorblades.
EvilMonkey @43
As other commenters mentioned upthread, Shallan is a level ahead of Kaladin at the end of WoR, but I also recall BWS saying that the different orders don’t necessarily get their perks powers at the same rate (no ref. handy, sorry). Also, we don’t know how far Shallan had progressed along the path when she was a pre-teen. She may have spoken a few truths before sliding back a bit.
ETA: Drat. Beaten to the punch by a Braid_Tugger.
@14 Wetlandernw, interesting inside information about the Beta discussion of the ‘thy’ phrase. My reaction is two-fold. I was both struck and impressed by the biblical (King James) phraseology just before a ‘miracle’ occurred. Second, it hearkened back for me to a pivotal scene in Eddings Belgariad epic (vol. 2) where the youthful hero, Garian, is prompted to march with a mysterious young boy down a long hall towards an ancient stone throne that had been unoccupied for over a millennia. No instructions were given by his mentors. Only that he would know what to do when the time came. As they walked, the candles lighting the room proceeded to darken. At some point the child was instructed to display the orb that only he could safely hold hitherto. Then the child was told to finally do his errand and deliver the orb. Our hero – now called Belgarion, feared to touch this most powerful object in the universe. But the voice inside his head gave him no other option. “Reach forth thy hand and claim thy inheritance”. The analogy continues as Garion is instructed by the voice in his head to replace the orb on the great sword fixed above the throne. When he does, the sword shockingly comes off in his hands and becomes extremely luminous. At this point, his ancient mentor proclaims his true identity and all the royal figures assembled hasten to acknowledge the new overlord of the west. Quite a shocking turn of events for a 16 year old who had been kept in protective ignorance of his geneology by his ostensible aunt who had raised the orphan (and the many predecessors of that line). So, two young heroes with magical current or past gifts being addressed in a formal but archaic manner by very powerful non-human beings, with lights dimming and then hoisting great, luminous swords, and now having achieved their full power or authority..hmm (sorry about that ungrammatical sentence).
The honorblades were given to mankind by Honor, perhaps the Shardplate was developed by Cultivation. It could even be an ability held by the orders with regrowth. Maybe they can speed up the process.
I’ve missed talking Sanderson with you all these last two weeks! Hopefully now my life will allow me to again give Brandon Sanderson his appropriately central place. :) (Just kidding…mostly.)
Like everyone else, I loved Kaladin’s climax here. Yes, we all knew it was going to happen – of course Kaladin was going to get his awesome ending with a dramatic magical power-up and grand final fight and all that, of course he wasn’t going to stay miserable and injured – but man, it still works. “Giddy with excitement” is right, @16. Sanderson is the only writer who can do that to me. Other authors can certainly fill me with delight, wonder, awe, excitement, all that good stuff, but when it comes to that pure, joyful, almost childish delight – only Sanderson can really evoke that for me. Even when a few sentences later the “thy” and frost glyph show up and it gets to be a bit much, I’m still so caught up in the moment that I just go along with it. The thing about Sanderson is that he is, to an extent, predictable and likes to use tropes – but he just does it so earnestly and with such love for his material. You can tell that he’s having a great time, and it’s catching and spectacularly refreshing.
Gah. Brandon Sanderson is just so awesome.
Anyways, I love those lines “this was the man he wanted to be” and “as if coming fully awake for the first time”. I love the sense of fulfillment, or satisfaction of a thirst along the lines of the verse in @40. This scene is not just Kaladin getting COOL MAGIC, but Kaladin becoming who he truly is, finally fitting with his purpose. Again, the delight of it is catching.
But of course Kaladin has still got a few thousand pages to go, so there are lots more problems down the road…
Re: “thy” – As I mentioned earlier, I found “thy” to be a bit much, but after hearing other viewpoints here I do at least see better how it fits. I like the thought of Kaladin participating in an ancient ceremony even in that moment of rough, down-to-earth defiance…but still, “thy” doesn’t quite work for me. Maybe there wasn’t quite enough context for me to feel the mystical-ancient-ceremony mood, so it just wound up feeling stiff.
@3 hammerlock: Ha, Sanderson loves to beat up his characters and then heal them dramatically at just the right moment. Raoden, Vin, Wax, now Kaladin… He just keeps trying to one-up himself on how much he can beat them up before he brings them back. I mean, look at Bands of Mourning…
@33 crumley: Now, the question is, who named them the “Knights Radiant” in the first place and what kinds of meanings might they have had in mind? At any rate, I think there may very well be something to the “radiating outward” sense of the word because of how big a deal symmetry is on Roshar. The glyphs, the Shattered Plains, the holy words…but then, how much of that is just superstition and tradition?
@45 wingracer: Yeah, I thought of Elantris too. So is that Windrunner glyph hard-coded into the magic, as in Elantris, or could it be something that a spren creates on their own (maybe informed by the writing of the local culture)?
@47 FenrirMoridin: Love your description of your excitement over this chapter. Yup. All true. I only hope Shallan and the others get endings as powerful as this someday.
And yes, of course most of us missed those blatant clues to Renarin’s Radianthood because we were in THE MIDDLE OF THE STORMING AVALANCHE. I think I mentioned in an earlier thread that at a certain point in a Sanderson ending, I quit trying to guess where he’s going and just let him take me for the ride. Well, at this point I would’ve been done predicting for several chapters.
@51 Nick31: Ha, I like that way of looking at it. It’s not Sanderson being overly dramatic, it’s Syl being overly dramatic. I can definitely buy that.
More on thy:
With the way Syl was portrayed throughout the series with her playfulness , it’s very easy to forget that her consciousness is at least a couple millennia old, maybe even as old as the shattering of Honor. I’m quite sure that Kalladin isn’t the only one she has fostered into Radienthood. So it seems natural to me that in a moment where she is regaining most of her memories that she would revert to a more archaic speech pattern, especially since it seems that Ideal 3 for Windrunners is a pretty big deal.
I remember something about different Orders get upgrades at different rates now that a few of you guys mentioned it. It would be interesting to find out who determined the rate for each Order. It would seem to be the Heralds themselves but could it be something Honor and Cultivation cooked up between themselves? Or did the Spren associated with each Order decide? It would be nice to know who wrote the rulebook.
@48 and @68 I’ve always thought that there is something “natural” about the Nahel bond, meaning that the differences between the orders are due to the nature of the spren they’re each bonded with. That would explain why Kaladin’s bond would automatically strengthen when he chose to realign himself with Syl’s nature (which she could feel, as she’s at the other end of that bond, and would be hoping/cheering for him to get on with it). It could also explain why all the Orders have different higher ideals and level ups. Kinda like bonding with a pet: they all need the basics (food, water, shelter = first ideal), but then their needs (ideals) and your bonding “rewards” would differ depending on the kind of animal. Dogs beings Level 2 cuddlers, and cats…Level 10? ;)
The question, though, is, if Syl automatically feels changes in the bond (a very likely explanation) which makes her pay attention and start watching Kaladin, then about what was she ‘disobeying’? And I still wonder, WHO was she disobeying?
I am a sucker for a good power reveal/level up scene. And this one was so perfect. Reminded me of Magician Master which is likely not as good but was great when I was twelve.
@70, I figure she’s disobeying the Stormfather, who said she’s not allowed to risk herself by forming a Nahel bond again? He seems rather traumatized by past events. Not that I blame him, if it really is a father-child type relationship between him and (other?) spren, then the Recreance must have been beyond horrifying. But he’s not much of an optimist, gotta say.
I hate that I’m so late to join the conversation, but I loved reading everyone’s thoughts and reactions to Kal and Syl’s combined awesomeness. I don’t have much to add on that front, but there was an Adolin bit that stood out to me this time around.
When reading this, I felt there may be a bit of foreshadowing about Adolin’s upcoming story arc. We know that he is in a difficult position because of the rapid changes around him and will have to deal with the fallout about Sadeas. Thus far we haven’t seen Adolin with any friends he can really count on, and being able to lean on someone and really trust them to have his back may end up being his salvation.
Misting Blue @@@@@ 73 –
Please expand your thoughts. I’m truly interested. Thanks. :-)
Sorry for the reverse order, I’ve finally got time to write what’s on my mind and I’m going bottom-up.
@70, @72 Syl disobeys the Stormfather here. He openly opposes reforging the nahel bond in this chapter, not to mention the “a daughter disobeys” from the previous one. Plus, I believe she told Kaladin somewhere earlier that she came to him even though her father forbade it. So it’s not the first time she does what she believes is right against the Stormfather’s wishes.
@68 — I’m not so sure Syl had had previous nahel bond experience (though it was Pattern, IIRC, who said that all Cryptics with such experience are dead now). Still, I find it more likely that she had witnessed a lot during that era.
@48, regarding the broken bond: I do believe it was broken, just like the bonds were at the Day of Recreance, with just one exception: Syl was never trapped in the Physical realm as a Shardblade. Now, Kaladin was the right person to remake this bond and was still around (something the poor Shardblades cannot even hope to happen anymore). On the other hand, I believe that what the Stormfather says reflects his will rather than the objective truth. He never wanted this bond to come to be. Now it’s broken, so he says there’s nothing Kaladin can do, that is, the Stormfather doesn’t want him to do anything with it.
That being said, I strongly believe we have the scene set for the awakening of an old Shardblade somewhere before the end of the first 5 books (unsure when, actually), with the scenario in which the blade vanishes in the beginning (gets “lost”) and by the end of that book (or even the next one) the bond is reforged.
@39: Fealty may actually be the right word. The Windrunners were given enormous fighting power. Apart from the Surges, their particular ability is the Strength of Squires (and we have WoB that Bridge 4 are Kaladin’s squires — http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27Bridge%20four%27 — that’s 20+ people, at least potentially; it also remains to be seen if this ability affects the squires’ skills or only the number). Therefore, it seems quite logical that such power should be given for a very specific purpose (to protect and lead).
@56 Thanks for the post. I had been thinking the same thing. And if you add the ring of power that Kaladin perceives as small and his bridge crew perceives as huge when he jumps off the bridge across the chasm and powers up, there is an ascending order of cool power displays when Kaladin lands as his bond progresses. (1. First chasm jump 40-50 feet down without being injured 2. Bridge/chasm jump w/ power up in final fight of WoK 3. Power up in corridor w/ Elhokar & Moash 4. Landing in Shattered Plains to fight Szeth) So I thought the glyph was cool and appropriate. The thy didn’t bother me either, but was not as foreshadowed I think. Did any of the knights in Dalinar’s visions speak more formally with thee/thy etc.?
@62 Thanks for the pics of the glyphs. I don’t believe I had seen the Jezrien symbol before.
I was able to ask Brandon a couple of questions on Saturday, but I’ll make that a separate post.
Barnes & Noble had YA authors in stores all over on Saturday, so we got Brandon Sanderson in Orem. =) I have 4 notes, some relating to this post.
1. Brandon disabused me of my little theory about a herald. He said the shalebark gardener working in the night when Dalinar and Navani walk by was just a gardener. He was purposefully trying to show “regular” Alethi alongside the more prominent soldiers and leaders.
2. Another interesting thing I heard was when he was explaining a little about the secret organizations to a young lady who was a fairly new fan. I didn’t hear the exact question, but Brandon spoke with certainty when he said that Amaram and Gavilar were Sons of Honor. I had taken Gavilar’s involvement with a grain of salt to this point. He also said that we know the most about their purpose–to return the Voidbringers as a means of making the Heralds return–and they they were the “most wrong.” He said that we can pretty much infer the purposes of the diagram group through the epigraphs and text. He said we basically don’t know anything about the Ghostbloods’ purposes. (which matches what Mraize told Shallan. I am very excited to find out more about them and if they know Hoid)
3. The funniest moment — there was a young couple talking to Brandon and Isaac about possible baby names relating to Brandon’s writing. I kind of tuned that out when somehow they got to Brandon saying “Stop, that’s a major spoiler,” and telling the 17th Shard folks filming that they had to cut that part out. I kind of wish I had been listening and simultaneously am glad I wasn’t. That goes along with a full-crowd Q&A question earlier about beta and gamma readers. I think I would be a good gamma reader at least, but I don’t think I would want to kill the excitement of cracking the book and experiencing it on release day.
4. Finally, Brandon RAFO’d me on my question about “the wicked thing of eminence” that Alice theorized about. I asked “Was the wicked thing of eminence an action of spren, of men, or both?” I didn’t go into this with him in a line, but my theory is about the spren.
We’ve heard from the Stormfather, who is a completely unreliable witness, and Syl, who doesn’t even remember, that it was men’s fault. Pattern is certain that Shallan will choose to kill him in the future, but I don’t remember him saying the Radiants were “wicked.” That doesn’t really fit with what we know of cryptics anyway. He went dormant when Shallan ignored him, but why would he think she would go even further and “kill” him when his standards are much different than honorspren? Also, the big troop of Radiants who abandoned their swords in Dalinar’s vision all did it at once. Their swords and armor were glowing and functioning when they arrived, so not oathbroken yet, and they do it in mass right then. Why would they choose that? (And weren’t many of them Windrunners?)
I think the Listener verse about the Parshendi being milk to the spren as opposed to the meat provided by bonds to men hints at the answer. We know that the spren imitated what the heralds could do and initiated the bonds on their own. I think that there is a cost to the Nahel bond that is undisclosed–the spren are somehow feeding/draining something–life, magic, etc. from their partners. They have good intentions and/or view short human live through a different lens of priorities in perspective of the millenia long struggle with Odium, but the humans pay a steep cost in exchange for their increased abilities. Maybe they eventually drain and become spren themselves?
sheiglagh @73
I think Adolin is going to have a hard time going forward. It looks like he is going to attempt to hide the fact that he murdered Sadeas, although I don’t know how long that will last or how successful the attempt will even be. Just before that happens, he is feeling overwhelmed and wondering where he fits into his world as it now stands. Not to mention that he still hasn’t had a chance to mourn Sureblood.
When reading it this time, it was easy to envision Adolin needing to be “held back from the brink”. It feels to me like he’s coming up on a dark place both in action and emotion. It may even appear, if only to him, that he has to give in to that darkness, but I think there will be someone to be his salvation when he needs it. Not that I’m implying it will be those two bridgemen, only that he’ll need someone to draw him back to the hero’s path.
Misting Blue @@@@@ 78 – thanks :-)
Patillian @@@@@ 77 – wow! Thanks for sharing
Patillian @77, many thanks!
GAK! Work is crazy, so I’m just now getting to this. Hopefully my comments to follow are read by at least a few… I LOVED THIS CHAPTER!
First: I’m not sure in what world Kaladin’s choices of who to protect aren’t straighforward, but it’s not mine, and it’s not Roshar. Moash is ATTACKING a drunk man with a SWORD. The shardbearers in the duel were trying to MAIM or KILL someone – and he disarmed them without actually hurting them! Szeth is trying to kill people! He clearly feels conflicted about killing Parshendi, and so he chooses not to. These people have clearly made choices that have defined themselves as the “bad guy.”
If I see a man holding a knife on a little girl, threatening to kill her, am I really supposed to protect HIM?!?! That’s bizarre. Sure, I can feel sorry for the guy, and I can try to help him – but my first priority is going to be to save that girl’s life. The Syl form of honor here is about as straighforward as I could possibly imagine. There’s questionable “honor” going on all over the place in this book – Taravangian, Jasnah, Nalan. This doesn’t even remotely compare to those.
On the use of Thy: Many cultures (including Brandon Sanderson’s Mormonism) make use of more archaic syntax when performing specific rituals/ceremonies. Being quite comfortable with this practice myself, I didn’t find it jarring or startling at all. YMMV.
On Renarin: I think it’s clear that we are supposed to assume he’s a Truthwatcher. And while I’m fairly certain that’s the case, I’m not going to fully commit until I have more evidence than just his word, given Brandon’s penchant for characters believing false things.
On the Epigraph: I’d just like to point out that the epigraph expresses the POSSIBILITY of needing the secret to destroy the orders (may need it). However, it expresses the CERTAINTY of their return. Is the possibility due to the chance that the orders may not need to be destroyed? Or is it because they may be destroyed without the secret?
On Adolin’s Duel: Using the terrain to your advantage seems like a brilliant way to end a fight quickly, with the least amount of effort. I applaud this maneuver in wartime. And that’s what it is – a war, not a game in a carefully prepared dueling arena.
On Kaladin’s battle with his own Honor: I believe that Kaladin has always had a Connection with Honor, and particularly Honorspren. It’s what led Syl to him in the first place. The hell he’s been through caused some quite natural confusion as to who he really was, and who he wanted to be. It wasn’t him battling bewteen accepting his own sense of Honor versus accepting Syl’s sense of Honor. This was him finally coming to realize that it had been his own choices (again, choices that were made due to confusion caused by what had been done to him) that were preventing him from living according to HIS OWN SENSE OF HONOR. He has ALWAYS wanted to protect people – from the girl he tried to heal on the street, on through bridge four and even the King. He simply lost sight of who he was.
And I, for one, am incredibly proud of him for finally overcoming (at least for now :)) the things that were preventing him from being himself.
And Finally, a comment on Graves: There was previous mention of the Blackthorn in the epigraphs. If he appears to be warmongering, he could be an ally. If he goes the way of peace, he should be assassinated. I wonder if the logic here is that his warmongering can only lead to the splintering of the princedoms, while making peace could lead to a more solid unification? At any rate, I wonder if Graves was ever being honest with his talk of making Dalinar the King. Did he hope that by killing Elhokar, the princedoms would split and he would start trying to conquer them, making him an ally? There’s just so much we don’t know about what their goals – long and short term – are.
No, I don’t think the “secret” could be the Splintering Of Honor, because Honor was clearly still around at the Recreance (He shows it in one of his memories.
Sorry for being so late, and so brief. I’m writing on a tablet, autocorrect makes this no fun.
To me, the reason why the bond cracked was this (dialogue with Dalinar):
“I don’t know whom I can trust these days. Can I trust you, Kaladin Stormblessed?”
“Yes. I swear it.”
He swore, and he betrays an actual oath by teaming up with Greaves. We can see the very moment here.:
“The time led me to a few decisions,” Kaladin said as the section of Plate locked into place. “One is that your friends are right.”
Moash turned to him sharply. “So . . .”
“So tell them I agree with their plan,” Kaladin said. “I’ll do what they want me to in order to help them . . . accomplish their task.”
The room grew strangely still.
Just my 2 chips – I hope anyone ever reads this.
Oh, I see them all. I don’t always comment, but I do see them! As do others; a handful of us will always notice when something pops up on an old post.