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So. Let’s Talk About The Killing Joke.

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So. Let’s Talk About The Killing Joke.

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So. Let’s Talk About The Killing Joke.

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Published on July 27, 2016

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The Killing Joke, film

DC’s animated feature based on Alan Moore and Brian Bolland’s classic story has hit both theaters and digital video. When it premiered at San Diego Comic Con this past week, fan reaction was… tense to say the least, and apparently culminated with screenwriter Brian Azzarello using a decidedly gendered slur to insult a reporter who expressed his issues with the film vocally in a room full of people.

Talking about this film, this story, is rough. It’s rough because it commands a lot of questions on multiple levels of the creative process. It’s rough because it deals with sexual violence and brutality, and what it means to make money off of stories that heavily feature those themes. It’s rough because this project involved many beloved creators and talent, and it’s hard to speak ill of people whose work you love and respect.

But we have to talk about The Killing Joke. Because we have to work through the shockwaves that this film has already prompted, and question the wisdom of this particular enterprise at a point in time when its legacy has never been more highly contested.

SPOILERS for The Killing Joke film.

Trigger warnings for discussions of rape and sexual abuse.

The Killing Joke has the burden of a dual pedigree. On the one hand, it is easily one of the most compelling stories about Batman and his coin flip counterpart, the Joker. Many artists and actors have cited this story again and again in their interpretations of both characters for good reason—it addresses the psychology of two men who are each defined by one horrible day in their past, making one into a hero hiding behind a mask and the other the most notorious criminal Gotham city has ever known. In that respect, it is a fascinating character study and worthy of its place in comics canon.

But the well-known problem (aside from the blatant disability-phobia of using “scary circus freaks” as the Joker’s lackeys purely for the sake of thematic adherence) with The Killing Joke is one of comics history’s ugliest sticking points—the story also led to the sexual abuse and paralyzing of Barbara Gordon, also known as Batgirl. This choice had positive and negative repercussions in terms of the character’s future; while the violence enacted against Barbara was disappointing due to her trauma being a footnote in the larger Killing Joke story (her wound and abuse only serve as a catalyst to motivate both Jim Gordon and Batman against the Joker), it did result in Barbara’s transformation into the hero Oracle, creating a female superhero with a disability, thus providing DC with greater representation among their roster. Awkwardly, this disability was then erased when DC rebooted their line with the New 52 universe in 2011, reverting Barbara Gordon to Batgirl and suggesting that the gunshot wound in The Killing Joke had only paralyzed her briefly (for three years) before she made a full recovery.

To make matters more complicated, the decisions made in regard to Barbara’s role with The Killing Joke have been tinted with misogyny. Alan Moore (who is famously not a fan of his own story in this particular case) admitted that paralyzing that character was perhaps an egregious move, and one that DC editors couldn’t give a whit about:

“I asked DC if they had any problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon—who was Batgirl at the time—and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project … [He] said, ‘Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.’ It was probably one of the areas where they should’ve reined me in, but they didn’t.”

Given this distressing history, it was hardly surprising that fans were concerned over a film version of The Killing Joke. DC likely hoped to ameliorate those worries by stacking the deck with a creative team full of fan favorites—producers Bruce Timm and Alan Burnett and voice actors Kevin Conroy, Mark Hamill, and Tara Strong have been long-adored by fans for their work in the DC Animated Universe, primarily Batman: The Animated Series, Justice League, and Teen Titans.

The Killing Joke, film

The film is now out, and has already caused its fair share of controversy. At a Friday night panel at San Diego Comic Con, io9 reported that Azzarello took exception to Bleeding Cool‘s Jeremy Konrad when Konrad verbally called out the film for its depiction of Barbara, replying with, “Wanna say that again? Pussy?”

Failure of professionalism aside, the use of a gendered insult in response to the potential mistreatment of a female character should not fill anyone with confidence. This is particularly relevant when Azzarello is the screenwriter—the one essentially putting words in Barbara Gordon’s mouth and dictating how other characters react to her.

Unfortunately, The Killing Joke film is just as much a failure of storytelling as it is a failure of depiction. The film tacks on a half hour prologue that deals with Barbara before the events of the comic, making the choice to portray her as a young woman hung up on her older crime-fighting partner. It seems that wasn’t the intention, as Azzarello claimed during the SDCC panel that Barbara was stronger than the men in her life, and that “she controls the men in her life in this story.” It’s an odd assertion, when no part of the additional narrative indicates this control. Instead, Barbara is angered by Batman when he takes her off a case involving a sociopathic mob prince named Paris Francesco who has taken to stalking her, trying to goad her into interacting with him. Batman informs her that she still thinks crime fighting is a fun game because she’s never reached her limit before—she’s never “been taken to the edge of the abyss”, as he phrases it. This leads to a couple of bizarre conversations—including one where Batman decides to explain “objectification” to Barbara, as though your average woman would not be pretty well versed in that concept—that culminates in a fight and ends with the two having sex on a rooftop. (Apparently no one cares about being unmasked in plain view of other building rooftops when they’re all hot and bothered.)

For the record, this is not the first time that a Timm/Burnett-led project has gone down that road. In the Batman Beyond series, set decades in the DCAU’s future, it’s made clear that Batman and Batgirl had a relationship that ended poorly due to Bruce Wayne’s inability to leave crime-fighting behind. (The comic spin-off Batman Beyond 2.0 gets into more detail in that regard, but the series creators were not involved with the creation of that plot arc.) Beyond is ambiguous about when this affair occurs, but Timm stated at the time that he intended for the implications to make fans uncomfortable. In the series continuity, it works effectively as a example of how Gotham and its pantheon of protectors have deteriorated over time, contributing to the nihilist themes of the show. (It’s worth noting that there’s no reason to think that The Killing Joke film is a part of this DCAU continuity, and it has not been billed as such.)

The Killing Joke, film

While the former relationship between Barbara Gordon and Bruce Wayne helps to build out the world of Batman Beyond, the presence of their affair in The Killing Joke is baffling because it has no direct bearing on the plot—and if it did, the result might have been even worse. As it stands, the sexual encounter causes Batman to retreat from Barbara, attempting to take on Paris alone, as he’d intended—but Paris gets one up on him and blows up the Batmobile. Batgirl enters the fray only to beat the man senseless, essentially blaming him for the breakdown in her relationship with Bruce. She stops when she realizes that she has reached that “abyss” he spoke of, that she’s in danger of going too far. Later, she hands in her Batgirl stuff and tells him she’s done with the whole vigilante thing, which is when the original plot of The Killing Joke kicks in.

The transition from one story to another is jarring because the two seem to have nothing to do with one another at all—a fact that was recognized by the creative team. In an interview with Vulture, Bruce Timm essentially admits that the two arcs don’t fit together, even thematically:

That’s the tricky part of it. We deliberately tried to not really link the opening to the Killing Joke part explicitly. There was some discussion about that: Should we try to fold it into the Killing Joke part of the story more? Should we hint at the Joker in the first part? It’s kind of an odd structure for a movie. It isn’t one long complete story. It really is two different stories with a break in the middle. We just decided that would be the best way to go with it. I honestly don’t even think of them as being one story. As weird as that may be. We just didn’t go down that route.

In terms of thematics: Boy, I don’t know. It’s probably going to take me years to figure that out. Often these things don’t hit me straight up. A lot of what we do is instinctual and intuitive. There can be deep, thematic resonances I don’t get until years later, when I go, Oh yeah, look at that, how clever we were!

This is more mind-boggling when Timm claims that the purpose in adding the Barbara-focused section was due to his own discomfort with her role in the initial story, where she was far from the focus: “So we thought, If we’re going to add a whole bunch of new story, let’s make it all about Barbara. We decided that it should be dealing with Barbara as Batgirl, so we can spend more time with her and kind of understand where she comes from.”

The problem is that this addition does nothing to alleviate Barbara’s mistreatment in the original story. Allowing us to spend more time with her doesn’t make her part in the main event any more meaningful—aside from providing a sense of whiplash when we suddenly step into the original narrative. It doesn’t help either that we’re treated to half an hour of Barbara Gordon talking about her frustrations with her “yoga instructor” (that is her coded term for Batman) with her Gay Best Friend at the library… which, aside from the usual troubling fetishization of the GBF trope also has the added benefit of denying Barbara anyone female to talk with at any point in the story.

The natural assumption is that adding the sexual relationship between Bruce Wayne and Barbara Gordon is meant to change the stakes when Batman goes after the Joker… except it doesn’t do that at all. In fact, Batman seems less enraged with the Joker by the end of the film than he does in the comic, removing most of the ending’s ambiguity. (The original version leaves the Joker’s fate up in the air, but the animosity is far less apparent at the end of the film.) In a way this could be viewed as a preferable outcome; in the comic, Batman’s anger is rooted in the Joker inflicting physical and psychological harm on people he views as “family,” and if it had visibly changed to anger over harm inflicted on a woman he slept with once, that would only serve to further diminish Barbara’s role in the tale, reducing her to an object of desire rather than a partner and friend. But it also makes the choice to include a sexual relationship between the characters slapdash at best—if it has no bearing on the outcome of the story, why does it need to be included at all?

The Killing Joke, film

According to Bruce Timm, it was to show that the characters are flawed? At least, that’s what he said at the SDCC panel:

“I actually like that in that opening story both Batman and Batgirl make a series of mistakes and then it kind of escalates, because Batman kind of overreacts and then she overreacts to his overreaction. That’s a very human thing.”

…Okay. But what does that have to do with The Killing Joke?

Timm went on to say that this attraction made sense to include because it’s been present between Batman and Batgirl from the start:

“There’s clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it’s there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, it’s there in the Adam West show. It’s subtle, but to me it’s always been there.”

So… even though it has ostensibly nothing to do with what occurs in The Killing Joke, it made sense to add on because that tension has been a subtle part of the characters’ histories forever? If that’s a good reason to add on a half hour detour to a story, then I have to ask—where is the important canonical work being modified to include a sexual relationship between Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson (also known as Robin #1 and Nightwing)? Because comics author and guru Grant Morrison has stated that the “gayness is built into Batman” since Bruce is “more interested in hanging out with the old guy [Alfred] and the kid [Robin]”; by Bruce Timm’s logic, it makes as much sense to explore the possibility of a relationship between Bruce Wayne and his former ward as it does to explore one between Bruce and Barbara.

But, of course, we know exactly why that’s never happened in a Batman movie.

There is only one moment of thematic resonance between the two disparate sections of this film—it is down to both Batgirl and Batman being confronted with a moment when they are emotionally reckless enough to make the wrong decision and hurt a villain who has hurt others. Both Bruce and Barbara arrive at that place, and perhaps it was meant to be poignant that Barbara immediately sees that she’s gone too far. The problem then becomes not her, but her antagonist: Paris Francesco is a misogynist piece of garbage who only takes interest in Batgirl because he wants to sleep with her. He’s not worth the time of day. Batman’s antagonist is his equal in every sense but morality. So these moments still don’t match up; instead, this progression suggests to female viewers that a woman crime-fighter’s greatest trial—the battle that spells out her destiny, tests her emotional limits and capabilities, dictates her future choices—is the equivalent of a preppy high school serial harasser or the guy who won’t stop wolf-whistling or cat-calling them in the street. Paris is a spectacular creep, for sure, and one who needs to be stopped—but as nemeses or adversaries go, he’s amateur hour when compared to a maniacal criminal mastermind like the Joker (or any other top-billed Rogue’s Gallery members, for that matter). Real villains are still for Batman.

The Killing Joke, film

And all of this is even more upsetting because it detracts from the good work done elsewhere in the film. Those final minutes between Batman and the Joker are every fan’s dream of this confrontation. They encapsulate each panel of the comic gorgeously, like the book has come to life. It’s a shame that the film had to go out of its way to do further damage to Barbara Gordon in an effort to get there, and for no discernible reason whatsoever.

The truth of the matter is, there is no way to adapt The Killing Joke without offense. There likely never was, but it is particularly true at a point in time where Barbara is not Oracle in comics continuity (though the film does slip in a tonally awkward mid-credits scene that shows her starting on that path), because it results in DC continuing to make money off of the sexual abuse of a character who is supposed to have moved well beyond the event in her character arc. It also makes it abundantly clear who this film is for—and that’s not fans of Barbara Gordon or Batgirl. It doesn’t help that the film takes Barbara’s abuse a step farther via a much stronger implication of rape (the question of whether or not Barbara was raped by the Joker—and indeed whether or not Jim Gordon was as well—is left ambiguous in the comic) when the Joker’s sex life is addressed… something that the creative team didn’t seem to notice. When asked by Vulture if an added scene—one where a trio of prostitutes suggest that the Joker hadn’t been to visit them as per usual because he’d maybe “found himself another girl”—was meant to imply that the Joker had indeed raped Barbara, Bruce Timm’s response was:

“I don’t think that, actually. I did not think of it as supporting that. If I had, I probably would have changed the line.”

This lack of awareness on the scripting level begs perhaps the most essential question—if it was so important to make Barbara part of this story, wouldn’t it have been beneficial to ask a female writer onto the project? Someone who was perhaps more likely to notice the tone-deafness and contradictions? Or perhaps to have a woman working in any executive position on the production side at all?

The Killing Joke, film

There are answers to all these questions, real ones, better than the answers that have been given. But in reality, this is just a blip on a radar, more of the same whenever a deeply controversial work is given the red carpet treatment. (Heck, with Suicide Squad coming up, we’re likely to hear more of the same within days.) Every fan who takes issue with the telling will be told the same things—if you don’t like it just don’t watch; don’t be so sensitive; it’s a classic so your opinion doesn’t matter; I liked it and that means you’re wrong; critics are idiots and not real fans; feminists ruin everything and are not real fans; it’s not a big deal, don’t be such a crybaby; stop overreacting; you probably hate everything; shut up [insert slur here] and make me a sammich. But it doesn’t change the fact that The Killing Joke fails as both a film (because it isn’t one) and as an attempt to better involve Batgirl in a story that relies on her abuse as a plot point (because it doesn’t).

The creative team was well-aware that the film was going to be met with controversy, and controversy they got. Though it has given a contingent of fans something that they have wanted for decades, another contingent are left alienated and furious. This is not a surprise—it unfolded exactly the way everyone expected to. What should upset us collectively is that no steps were taken to prevent it. Hands were thrown into the air, and shoulders were shrugged, and the people involved said, quote, “Yeah, that’s kind of where we need to go,” without bothering to consider the ramifications of their creative choices.

Can someone answer me a question? How, precisely, is that any different from saying: “Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch”?

Because I’m not really sure.

Emmet Asher-Perrin really did enjoy the last ten minutes of the film. You can bug her on Twitter and Tumblr, and read more of her work here and elsewhere.

About the Author

Emmet Asher-Perrin

Author

Emmet Asher-Perrin is the News & Entertainment Editor of Reactor. Their words can also be perused in tomes like Queers Dig Time Lords, Lost Transmissions: The Secret History of Science Fiction and Fantasy, and Uneven Futures: Strategies for Community Survival from Speculative Fiction. They cannot ride a bike or bend their wrists. You can find them on Bluesky and other social media platforms where they are mostly quiet because they'd rather talk to you face-to-face.
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8 years ago

It was an awful, awful choice, all around.

I read TKJ when I was in my Batman phase, it wasn’t my favorites and problematic for all sorts of reasons, but, to my mind, it was forgivable because it gave us Oracle, who was my favorite DC development (literally, I was always a Marvel guy, and the first time I got at all interested in the Batman comics was because I’d heard somewhere that Batgirl was in a wheelchair and was now fighting crime in a command/control position as Oracle.  That seemed like a cool direction to take.  And, literally, after they undid I have never bought a DC comic since). 

But when I saw the previews I was mildly optimistic because Batgirl, in costume, was in it, and maybe they might have beefed up her role and became interesting.  Unfortunately, they did it in absolutely the worst way, for all the reasons you mentioned. 

I don’t like Babs/Bruce getting together, but, you know, if a writer wants to explore that idea, in general, fine… but not in THIS story.  It’s the worst possible place to do it. 

And I think the best way to involve Babs in TKJ is to have it follow her choosing to leave the life behind (and NOT because she was too emotionally involved with the men in her life to be objective, but maybe because it was interfering with efforts at a normal life), and SHOW that inspiring her to not give up fighting crime after all.  Show her reaction, not to the sexual abuse part (which is probably going to come off bad no matter what you do), but to being an innocent bystander, hurt because it would only affect somebody… it works both as a meta commentary on the story itself, and also a plausible reaction motivation for moving forward into Oracle, “I should have been saving the innocent victim, not being one.  In the hospital, I decided that if some crazed super villain was going to show up at my door, they would be here for me, and I’d still give them the fight of their lives.”  And show more than a 5 second clip of her going “back to work!”

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8 years ago

They should have asked themselves how they would have structured the story around a male hero. Then swap the gender, modify to fit Barbara as a specific character and go from there. It’s not a surefire method but it’d get them closer than they apparently got.

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Joe R
8 years ago

Bablylon 5’s JMS did an awesome story about Barbara Gordon’s last night before the events of the Killing Joke (a girl’s night out with Wonder Woman and Zatara who knew what was coming and wanted her to have a happy memory before it all went to hell)…I was hoping that’s what they were adding to the animated movie

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8 years ago

Emily,

Do you think there would have been a way to make The Killing Joke into a good movie, or do you think that the underlying story is fundamentally flawed?

I always appreciated the story, while wishing the stakes were Barbara’s as well instead of just being motivation for Batman and Jim. It sounds like this adaptation fails on multiple levels, but I was just curious if you think the storyline could have had a successful adaptation.

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Icehawk
8 years ago

I hated this. What is up with DC animated and rape lately? They mentioned Talia raped Batman in the past a movie or two ago. Glossed over it like it was nothing. Then in this, I got the very strong impression the Joker raped Barbara. She wasn’t an object in this movie. She was a toilet.

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8 years ago

Azzarello’s behavior is appalling… regarding the film itself, the almost shot by shot and dialogue by dialogue adaptation of the original story is acceptable, although a bit… I don’t know, uninspired, as if they didn’t dare to do more. The problem was the story fragment they added at the beginning, twenty minutes of filler that had, in the mind of the adapting writer (Brian Azzarello), a purpose, but one that failed miserably.

Not because of the Batgirl/Batman romance, which I don’t like, but it’s something that doesn’t relally matter, but because of what they did to Barbara herself. They tried to make her a person, as opposed to the mere victim she is in TKJ, to make her more valuable…. but Azzarello wrote her awfully, making her a tantrum-throwing teenager, who makes horrible decisions based only on her feelings, an abhorrent clingy woman stereotype. On top of that, her cliched gay friend is something like out of the nineties… OH, I know! Azzarello thought that since he was adapting an 80s story, he had to write in an outdated way!

Nothing to say about the incredibly work of Hammil and Conroy, and the rest of the voice cast is good. I didn’t notice some animation errors that some people pointed out to me, but they seem to be due to the fact that this is actually a movie made for home video, with the accompanying budget, and its shortcomings are more noticeable on the big screen. I did have a bit of a problem with the 3D animation used for vehicles, they looked a bit cheap, but they probably work better on a TV.

6 out of 10.

“In terms of thematics: Boy, I don’t know. It’s probably going to take me years to figure that out. Often these things don’t hit me straight up. A lot of what we do is instinctual and intuitive. There can be deep, thematic resonances I don’t get until years later, when I go, Oh yeah, look at that, how clever we were!”

Or “look at how we f###ed up here”.

ChristopherLBennett
8 years ago

I’m very disappointed by this, but sadly not surprised. These producers have not had a good track record in their treatment of female characters and sexuality in these movies, which tend to pander to a 13-year-old boy’s idea of what sexually mature themes look like. Icehawk mentioned how Batman and Son treated Talia’s roofie-rape of Batman like a fun night for Batman — I’d throw in the fact that Talia spent the whole movie with her catsuit unzipped to the waist. The recent Justice League vs. Teen Titans — probably the best movie to date in the current animated-movie continuity — gives Starfire a deeply objectifying costume-change sequence and has a scene of her talking to Dick Grayson over Skype that comes off as voyeuristic (because she’s played as clueless about how her semi-nudity is affecting him, when they could’ve just made it deliberate flirtation on her part and it would’ve been so much better). By the way, JLvTT was directed by Sam Liu, the same director as The Killing Joke.

They should’ve given this project to Lauren Montgomery, the director of their 2009 Wonder Woman movie and their Batman: Year One adaptation (which improved somewhat on the agency of Jim Gordon’s first wife, although improving on  Frank Miller’s female characterization is not that hard to do).

 

@4/hihosilver28: If I may offer an opinion on your question, I think TKJ is a really good story aside from the stuff with Barbara — and part of the reason the Barbara stuff is so bad is because it’s completely unnecessary to the plot. Barbara has so little agency or dialogue or presence in the story that the whole thing could’ve been cut without much effect. Okay, granted, if you want to drive a father insane, showing him something horrible happening to his daughter is a good way to do that, but there could’ve been something else the Joker did to achieve a comparable effect — say, something aimed at the cops under Gordon’s command. So Barbara could’ve been removed from the story altogether and then it would’ve worked just fine.

The problem is that, in that case, the movie would’ve simply been too short. I can understand their decision to try to give Barbara agency in the story rather than just dropping her from it. But man, did they ever do it in the most clueless possible way. There are so many ways they could’ve done it better. Establish Batgirl as a kickass crimefighter/athlete so that we feel what the Joker takes away from her in terms that are relevant to her life rather than just to her father or Batman. Have Batgirl track down and arrest the Joker in the first part of the film, so that his later attack on her is actually a reaction to her actions rather than just reducing her to a prop in a conflict between men (and just so there’s some plot unity between the two parts of the film). Spend more time getting into Barbara’s head after the attack, show her coping process with the news that she’s paralyzed, show her committing to remaining strong and not letting the Joker’s act define her life. I’m not sure if those things would’ve really made enough of a difference, but they would’ve helped.

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Theo16
8 years ago

From the very beginning, if the comic was too short to make into a movie they probably should have adapted something else.

On the other hand, they did have to explain to the general audience how Barbara decided to stop being Batgirl. I guess they could have followed the 70s comics and shown her hanging up the costume so she could run for congress. DC had a lot of different ideas on where the character should go and Oracle was the only one that was really great.

This review deserves credit for not claiming that a relationship between Batman and Batgirl is totally inappropriate. (Handled poorly, apparently, but not a case of a grown man and teenaged young woman like some reviews have claimed.) Gordon was already a librarian in a big city before she became Batgirl, so she must have at least had a masters degree, which makes her closer in age to Bruce than to Dick.

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8 years ago

So, I’ve never watched any of the animated DCU movies, and as a fan of Batman TAS way back when, I find just the idea of an R-rated Batman movie to be somewhat jarring anyway.

Anyhow, it certainly seems like there should be a way to tell a story that explores the idea of destroying Batman by taking away everything he cares about (including the sub-themes of, can Batman be forced into violating his own code and is he even Batman after than, and what kind of person would be on the other end of that scheme anyway) without either raping the heroine, fridging the heroine, or fridging the heroine after she has sex with the hero.

Not gonna be on my must-watch list.

ChristopherLBennett
8 years ago

@11/Theo16: Did they have to explain how Barbara stopped being Batgirl? I mean, I’ve owned The Killing Joke since it was new, just about, and I had no idea until reading this column just now that Barbara was supposed to have retired from crimefighting before the story. I’ve always assumed she was still Batgirl but we were just seeing her while she was visiting her father in her civilian identity. Her role in the story is so minor that whether she’s Batgirl or not doesn’t even come up. So it would’ve been quite easy to tell the story in a way that had her still being Batgirl during its events.

As for Barbara’s age, she’s usually been portrayed as a few years older than Dick. In her TV debut in the Adam West series, she was coming back from college to take a librarian’s job at about the same time that Dick Grayson got his first driver’s license, so she was probably 6-8 years his senior. And Timm is right that the show played up a lot of romantic tension between Barbara and Bruce (in both identities). In Batman: The Animated Series, however, they aged up Dick to college age because of the network’s concerns about showing child endangerment, so Babs was only a couple of years ahead of Dick in college there, and some episodes of The New Batman Adventures, as well as the Lost Years tie-in comic bridging the gap between series, established a Dick-Barbara romance, which has often been a thing in the main comics.

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8 years ago

Another thing of note.  I have friends, family, who are interested in superheroes but not really too big on comics. 

When I heard “The Killing Joke” was going to be animated, I thought of one person who I often loan movies to… he’s sort of into Batman in movie form and can enjoy the odd cartoon, but never really read any of the comics.  So I figured, hey, here’s an opportunity, I can give him this iconic story that’s a major part of the DC canon, that he probably wouldn’t ever experience.

After watching it, I decided I was not going to do that, or mention it to him.  If he finds it on his own, that’s his business, but I will not be responsible for him getting the idea that Batman and Batgirl hooked up for a night of rooftop sex in a classic Batman story. 

BMcGovern
Admin
8 years ago

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Cybersnark
8 years ago

@11. And even if she was the same age as Dick, he was in his 20s and operating as Nightwing by the time this happened (one book showed him returning to Gotham a day after Barbara gets out of the hospital. He then broke up with her so he could propose to Starfire, because he lives up to his name. Babs threw a lamp at his head).

(Which would suggest that this happened around the same time as Jason Todd’s death, which would be another reason for Batman to go over the edge.)

My preferred approach would’ve been to make the arc itself about Barbara’s “death” & rebirth (with the Batman/Joker conflict playing out only in the background). Hell, maybe make Oracle the one who actually finds the Joker’s hideout and talks Batman down from breaking his no-kill rule.

ChristopherLBennett
8 years ago

@15/ghostly1: I don’t see anything intrinsically wrong with the idea of Bruce and Barbara having sex, as long as they’re both consenting adults. The problem isn’t the sex, the problem is that Babs is written as a character who’s defined entirely by her sexuality and her relationships and who lets her emotional attachments interfere with her professionalism, which is a deeply stereotyped and antiquated way of writing a female character.

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8 years ago

18: I don’t see anything intrinsically wrong with the idea, either, as I said in a previous comment.  I don’t LIKE it, and I don’t think it fits with either character’s established history, and I think in this particular case it was written badly, but I’m open to seeing it explored. 

But don’t do it in TKJ.  Don’t throw this wildly non-canon element into an adaptation of one of the most iconic stories that you’re otherwise slavishly adapting.  Because now you can’t show people the iconic story without them getting the idea that this is part of it (I mean, you could explain, but having to explain something like that is exhausting, and you’re already liable to have to do some apologizing for TKJ with the content that’s already in the book).  It’s like adapting Teen Titans The Judas Contract and including a revelation that Deathstroke is Robin’s father.  Or adapting Wolverine: Weapon X but including a flashback that reveals that Wolverine isn’t actually a mutant human, he’s actually a mutant wolverine that’s been artificially evolved. 

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8 years ago

@11 – Theo: Why did they have to show Barbara stop being Batgirl? She just gets shot that night she didn’t go out on patrol because she was spending time with her dad. And keep the comic detail that I always thought was stupid: Barbara opens the door without asking who it is or checking through the door’s peephole to see who’s there… IN GOTHAM… WHILE THE JOKER IS ON THE LOOSE.

@17 – Cybersnark: A Joker-beaten up Jason Todd image is shown on the Batcave monitor in the movie.

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Andrewiswriting
8 years ago

Ok, so there’s a bit of ‘gospel according to Andrew here’ and I’m sure many people won’t agree with me.

Once upon a time, comics were for kids. Readers would grow up and out of comics, and a new generation would move in.

And then, over time, nerds stopped growing up. They became adultelescents (or whatever the portmanteau is) and wanted to keep reading their comics but now that they were adults, they wanted dark and gritty rather than noble. Which was fine for that slice of fandom, but drove the majority away.

So we get Joker raping and crippling Batgirl. And then (thanks again DC) Dr Light raping Sue Dibny and projecting a hologram for all to enjoy, complete with tongue hanging out.

FFS.

Call me a prude, but there shouldn’t be cum stains in the content of comic books.

My eleven-year-old son asked to see The Killing Joke and I told him no way. No way ever.

Final note: Women in the refrigerator. Just stop it already.

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8 years ago

Okay, confession time: I really like Alan Moore’s work and I really like The Killing Joke in graphic novel form.

However, I haven’t seen the film and I have no intention of seeing it, based on this review and other reviews elsewhere.  I am SO NOT COOL with Azzaerllo’s comment at SDCC.

Moore has been criticized for “fridging” female characters and incorporating rape into many of his narratives.  I am NEVER okay with rape culture or the “normalization” of rape.  Yet (and please bear with me a wee bit here), I kind of feel as if Moore’s inclusion of rape in his narratives serves to expose just how horrendous it is.  Rape is something many people, sadly, have experienced.  Moore doesn’t buy into the mid-to-late twentieth century “no-means-yes” trope in which women are basically raped and that rape is excused because “they wanted it.”  (For example: look at V. C. Andrews’ novels, Robert E. Howard’s “Conan” stories, Ian Fleming’s James Bond novels…etc.)  Moore much more realistically portrays rape as something despicable, damaging, inexcusable, and ultimately cowardly and craven on the part of the rapist.

In the original graphic novel, I felt as if Barbara Gordan’s assault/rape was even more terrible because ultimately Batman didn’t really care about it.  At one point (my copy of the graphic novel is buried somewhere in the other room, so please forgive my bad memory), doesn’t the Joker say that Batman just wants the assault on Barbara to be so “bad” that he can be justified in hating the Joker?  There is something really, really horrible and chilling in the way that Batman and the Joker both seem ready to dismiss this act of atrocity against a woman and make it into a “chess move” in their rivalry.  (There is definitely a Queer interpretation lurking here…)  At the end of the graphic novel, Batman and the Joker are laughing together about a dumb “dad joke” and (in Brian Bolland’s artwork) arguably seem to be close to embracing.  The joke is about walking out of an insane asylum on a flashlight beam.  Meanwhile, within the narrative, Barbara Gordan will never walk again, whether on a beam of light or a physical road.  I think that Moore is too deliberate of a writer for that to be accidental.

Many critics have said that the graphic novel The Killing Joke was important because it conflated the characters of Batman and the Joker until it was unclear who was the hero and who was the villain (something which the film versions since Burton’s Batman have really embraced).  However, according to Moore, that conflation is darker than even Burton imagined.  The “joke” – the “killing joke” – is that neither Batman nor the Joker care about the rape and physical assault of a woman except as it relates to their own folie a deux.  I am afraid that many fans, viewers, and readers don’t care either.

       

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Matthew W.
8 years ago

Having read the graphic novel a number of times, and now having seen the animation, I can say that I think it would have been better if they had left the story the way it was. We could argue all day about what other kind of prologue could have been done, or how this one could have been tweaked, but in the end if I was given a choice between seeing an animated version of the graphic novel with the prologue or without, I would choose without every time. It feels tacked on, the tone is all wrong and certainly didn’t do Barbara Gordon/Batgirl any favors.

ChristopherLBennett
8 years ago

@24/jaimew: “At one point (my copy of the graphic novel is buried somewhere in the other room, so please forgive my bad memory), doesn’t the Joker say that Batman just wants the assault on Barbara to be so “bad” that he can be justified in hating the Joker?”

I don’t think so. The closest thing is where he’s defeated and at Batman’s mercy and says, “Well? What are you waiting for? I shot a defenseless girl. I terrorized an old man. Why don’t you kick the hell out of me and get a standing ovation from the public gallery?” In other words, why not do what they’ve always done in the past, play out the next iteration of the same old dance? Despite who the victim is, it’s treated as business as usual between them. (After all, the Joker doesn’t know Barbara was Batgirl, presumably, so as far as he knows, Batman just sees her as the daughter of an colleague.) That’s really the point of Batman’s arc here — he’s trying to find a way out of their destructive routine, trying to find a better way, and just this once, after there’s no more reason to fight, the two enemies are able to have one brief moment of understanding. (Which is why it’s so incredibly wrong to read the last panels as Batman strangling the Joker, as some people do. They’re clearly sharing a moment of cathartic laughter, and Batman’s hands are clearly on the Joker’s upper arms, not his neck. The script specifically says that they’re supporting each other because they’re “helpless with laughter.”)

Also, he says “shot.” I don’t see any indication that the Joker raped Barbara. I’m not convinced he’d even be capable of that, or interested in it. (This predates Harley Quinn and Paul Dini’s interpretation of the Joker as an abusive boyfriend.) He did undress Barbara and take pictures, which is certainly voyeuristic and exploitative, but it always seemed to me that it was as much about letting Jim Gordon see the full extent of her injuries as about objectifying and humiliating her. (Note that he also had Jim stripped naked.) Although, granted, looking at the panel now, there are a couple of shots of Barbara’s face where it’s unclear whether she’s grimacing in pain or… for another reason. So I guess that could be taken as suggestive of rape, but it’s tenuous.

 

@25/Matthew W.: Maybe keeping the story as it was could’ve worked, perhaps with the slight modification of keeping Barbara’s clothes on. But as we’ve already established, the story would’ve just been too short to sustain a whole 70-minute movie. So they had to add something. It’s just that their decision of what to add was incredibly wrongheaded and tone-deaf.

Hmm… Maybe they could’ve done it “as is” if they’d done, like, a 2-story anthology movie — which, arguably, is kind of what they did anyway, given how poorly the two halves connect. I’m not sure what other iconic story is short enough that they could’ve adapted it along with this.

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8 years ago

: You are 100% correct.  I just realized that I was thinking of a vaguely-similar Hellblazer story arc.  D’oh!  I also agree with you about the final panels of the graphic novel.  I think Moore/Bolland (I’ve heard varying stories about exactly how much each creator was responsible for) made it slightly ambiguous on purpose to conflate the affection/aggression dynamic between Batman and the Joker. 

As to whether or not Barbara is literally raped…as I read the narrative, I think she was.  Moore certainly doesn’t shy away from rape in his work and my assumption was that he had to be a little more “vague” about it in The Killing Joke because this was DC and previously-established characters.  Moore also links sex and violence in a lot of his work (Morrison did something similar with the Joker in Arkham Asylum – if you’ve got the edition with the original script, the linkage was supposed to be even stronger).  I assume I don’t have to belabour the Freudian linkage between shooting Barbara in her lower body and the physicalact of rape.

I think you’re right that it’s impossible to know for absolutely sure.  In some ways that makes the story even darker – whether or not Barbara was raped isn’t central to Batman’s concern, and this is a Batman story, so it isn’t central to the narrative either.  You said in your last post that Batman wants to get out of the “destructive routine” and the “same old dance” he and the Joker keep enacting. There’s yet another way the panel of them embracing can be seen – as the two of them dancing.  Despite his noble intentions, Batman is drawn back into that dance.  Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is a form of insanity and, in his own way, Batman is just as insane as the Joker in this narrative.

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8 years ago

@26 – Chris: I’m with you, I never thought the Joker raped Barbara. And the strangling interpretation at the end is just wrong.

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aFan
8 years ago

@28 – Batman snapped his neck.  Narratively it makes sense, but it ruffles Batman fans feathers because he supposedly “never kills.” DC has distanced themselves from it, but at the time it was the understanding by the readers.

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8 years ago

@29: The readers who understood that at the time understood it incorrectly.  It was never intended by either Moore or DC that it ended with Batman killing Joker, and DC intended TKJ to be in-continuity.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2016/07/22/comic-book-legends-revealed-585/

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2016/05/20/comic-book-legends-revealed-576/

 

 

 

ChristopherLBennett
8 years ago

@27/jaimew: Oh, no question what the Joker does to Barbara — shooting her, stripping and photographing her, leaving her paralyzed — is a very clear symbolic sexual violation. But that’s just why I think adding literal rape to it would be somewhat redundant. I’m not too familiar with Moore’s other work beyond Watchmen and “For the Man Who Has Everything,” so I’ll take your word about his use of sexual assault, but I think he covers that base symbolically here even if the only physical violation is from the bullets. And since he only says “I shot a defenseless girl” and doesn’t mention doing anything else to her, that seems hard to reconcile with the interpretation that he also raped her. I’d think that, given that he was listing the litany of his crimes, he would’ve considered that one worth mentioning as well. Although I’m sure there’s an interpretation that he was so casual about it that he didn’t think it was worth mentioning.

 

@29/aFan: I think you’re confusing TKJ with The Dark Knight Returns, in which Batman stops just short of snapping the Joker’s neck in their final fight, unable to cross that line even with the most extreme provocation, but then the Joker somehow forces his own neck to snap the rest of the way, committing suicide and making it look like Batman killed him.

As I’ve said, and as you can see in the links, Batman’s hands are nowhere near the Joker’s neck in those final panels. They’re around his upper arms.

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7 years ago

I truly appreciate to have your perspective on this story. 

Never truly liked this “classic”, it always rubbed me as a long winded setup to a bad joke.

 

ChristopherLBennett
6 years ago

Just bumping this to say that I finally watched this movie. Looking back over my comments from two years ago, I see I never actually mentioned that I was basing them on the reviews and criticisms I’d read rather than on actually watching the movie — I should’ve been clearer about that, just for full disclosure. Anyway, I happened to find it on Sony Crackle’s free streaming site. I’d passed up the opportunity to check it out from the library before, since the negative reviews had soured me on it, but since it was just one click away, and I was bored, I decided to watch it. I was tempted to skip the infamous prologue and just go right to the graphic novel adaptation, but I was morbidly curious to see if the prologue was really as bad as the reviews had it.

And boy, it was. In retrospect, I wish I had skipped it. The main reaction it evoked in me over and over again was “What the hell were they thinking?” Nothing about it seemed like a good idea. It had no connection to The Killing Joke, no reason to exist as part of this movie except strictly as padding. And it totally fumbled a story about Batgirl by focusing relentlessly on the “girl” at the expense of the “Bat.” She was defined throughout by others’ sexual interest in her or by her own romantic interests, or as a creature of emotion in contrast to Batman’s manly discipline. The villain was penny-ante and boring and thus so was the story. The whole half-hour was a complete waste.

And that’s a shame, because the actual TKJ adaptation wasn’t bad. I mean, it failed to do much of anything to fix TKJ’s serious problem in its treatment of Barbara, aside from the token mid-credits Oracle scene. But aside from that, it worked fine. Maybe the animation could’ve been more polished, but it was nice to hear this pivotal Batman-Joker story performed by Conroy and Hamill. And while some of the added plot and action beats just kind of distracted (the whole opening with the discovery of the bodies was never addressed once the adaptation proper started), there were a couple of changes and additions that were effective, like changing the vantage point of the flashback so we don’t hear the cops tell the proto-Joker about his wife, or like having much of the climactic fight happen in that inverted recreation of his apartment. (It’s also interesting to finally hear the Joker’s song set to music, though it’s surprising that they dropped Moore’s “loo-oo-oony” from the refrain and just made it two syllables.)

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Dakota Mike
6 years ago

I guess I’m in the minority here, but I really liked the Batgirl half, and didn’t like the TKJ half.  The first-half felt a lot like a fun episode of BTAS, and I enjoyed spending so much time with Barbara and watching her fight crime.  It made me want a whole Batgirl movie TBH.  I thought she was likable and admirable, and I didn’t personally find her diminished in any way by her portrayal in this film.  In fact, when I watched it, I though Batman was the one who acted badly after their affair, and who was being ruled by his emotions.

TKJ half is just so dark and unpleasant that it really clashes. For me, it makes the Joker too nasty to enjoy.  I’ve always preferred the evil, but still fun and funny Joker.  While here he’s just evil and unpleasant.  I think hearing him voiced by Hamill makes it feel more “real” than simply reading a one-off comic. Even though I’ve read TKJ, I didn’t realize how much I would end up disliking him in this movie.  Especially sine Hamill-Joker is my favorite bat-villain.

I think going forward the Joker scenes in “Mask of the Phatasm” will be my version of TKJ Joker.  In particular the Joker-hideout scenes feel like a more DCAU-friendly version of the TKJ stuff. They clearly pulled a lot from TKJ in MotP, but managed to keep character portrayals and content true to BTAS.

All in all, it just goes to show how different two people can view the same content.  Since so many people say they prefer the second-half.