Welcome back to the Warbreaker reread! Last week, most of our main characters converged on the arena for the Assembly where Siri made her first public appearance as queen. This week, the God King joins them, as does Vasher, while the priests begin debates and we get a brief lesson in history and comparative theology.
This reread will contain spoilers for all of Warbreaker and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. This is particularly likely to include Words of Radiance, due to certain crossover characters. The index for this reread can be found here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 15
Point of View: Siri, Lightsong, Siri, Vivenna
Setting: The Arena in the Court of Gods
Timing: Immediately following Chapter 14
Take a Deep Breath
Siri turns to see Susebron standing behind her, clothed in white which his immense BioChroma turns to a rainbow aura, and appearing far younger than she expected. Gaping at him in awe, she belatedly remembers to kneel.
Lightsong stands looking across the arena at the white-robed figure, but at Blushweaver’s insistence decides that there’s no point in needlessly angering the God King and kneels, also belatedly.
As Siri kneels before him, her husband is lifted with Awakened ropes to a golden throne on an outcropping above her. With all the display pieces properly positioned, everyone resumes their seats and their conversation; priests enter the arena below to begin the day’s debate. Siri considers her husband, comparing what little she knows of him with what she’s always been taught of Austre, God of Colors. Bluefingers approaches, checking to be sure everything is in place. Siri questions him about the Returned, and discovers to her surprise that the Pahn Kahl consider themselves distinct from Hallandren, accepting Susebron as their king but not their god. Bluefingers explains some of the mystery of BioChroma and “The Light of Peace”– tens of thousands of Breaths—the God King holds. While this answers some of her questions, she realizes that there is still much of both history and religion that she doesn’t understand. In any case, Hallandren doesn’t seem nearly as awful as she’d expected.
Vivenna, feeling overwhelmed by her Breath, the crowd, the color, and all, concludes that Hallandren is even worse than she’d been told. Deeply uncomfortable in this situation, she decides that having seen Siri, it’s time for her to leave. As she turns, she discovers a scruffy-looking nerfherder man two rows back, staring directly at her. Bizarrely, he holds even more Breath than she does, and carries a sword which seems to have its own twisted BioChroma. Determined now to leave for sure, she and Parlin exit the arena; once in the passageway, she finally hears what Parlin has been trying to tell her—the priests are talking about Idris, and debating whether to begin the war their treaty was supposed to prevent. She returns to the arena as quickly as possible.
Breathtaking
Surely the Hallandren people had their own version of the story. Watching the Returned in their boxes made Siri wonder. One fact was obvious: Things in Hallandren were a whole lot less terrible than she had been taught.
~
Vivenna shivered, cringing as the people in their colorful outfits crowded around her. Things here are worse, even, than my tutors said, she decided, wriggling in her seat.
So different, these two sisters.
Local Color
Annotations this week reflect on Siri’s perception of the God King, why it matters, and how in a sense it relates to the Lord Ruler in Mistborn; a brief note on adding Kalad’s Phantoms to create a little more mystery; deliberately keeping Vasher’s plot to glimpses here and there during the early part of the story; and life sense as part of BioChroma. It’s all interesting stuff, but it doesn’t particularly shed new light on the text itself.
Snow White and Rose Red
Once again, the contrast drawn between the sisters is stark; it’s also a little unexpected. Vivenna has always been the one to think things through, considering implications and strategies. Now, thrown off her stride by possession of hundreds of Breaths as well as Denth’s manipulations, she falls back on holding tightly to her training, rejecting anything that doesn’t fit her world view. And to be fair, she has plenty of reason to be off-balance and in need of something to hold on to! I expect most of us would do much the same.
She still couldn’t decide if she thought the Breath she held was horrible or wonderful. Gradually, she was coming to appreciate that it was horrible because of how wonderful it felt. The more people that surged around her, the more overwhelmed she felt by her Breath-heightened perception of them.
Siri, by contrast, is busy actually thinking about things—not something she was previously known for, other than thinking up snappy retorts. She keeps getting new information, and she can’t not process it in light of what she sees before her as well as what she had always been taught. While she’s still a little off-balance from being in a strange place and surrounded by strange things, she at least doesn’t have the bizarre impact of heightened BioChroma to deal with. So… she gets a new perspective on the Returned, and especially the God King, and develops questions about this Hallandren religion and her own history & theology. Whatever Bluefingers’s eventual plans, at least at this point he’s telling her the truth, which is a lot better than what Vivenna’s been getting.
I can’t help wondering: if Vivenna had come here as planned, unenhanced and prepared to accept her role… would she really have been so bad at adapting as I keep thinking? She barely got into T’Telir, which was overwhelming enough on the surface, before getting 500+ extra Breaths stuffed into her against her will. If everything is now almost unbearably confusing, who’s to blame her for her revulsion?
Meh. I seem to be ambivalent about her. Sometimes I see her as woefully rigid and unable to adapt, and sometimes I just feel awful for her.
Clashing Colors
We learn a little more about the Pahn Kahl—a snippet here, and a snippet there, little clues that seem like nice worldbuilding but will eventually add up to a major plot issue. For now, we have our first (?) statement that the Pahn Kahl do not consider themselves Hallandren. They accept Susebron as their king, but they do not worship him as a god. This doesn’t seem to be a problem for anyone in the Court, and as far as I can tell, no one even sees the potential conflict.
It’s slightly ironic that Siri asked Bluefingers about the Returned, rather than one of the priests. He’s pretty much the only person she can talk to who doesn’t either hate or worship the Returned, so she almost accidentally gets some honest information about them. He seems to understand a lot about the Divine Breath and BioChroma in general, as well as a little too much about the God King in particular.
In other cultures, here’s a question that’s been bothering me for a while: Who—or what— exactly, is Austre? Is he a misunderstood Edgli? Is he an ancestor of the Idrian monarchy? We really are never told, as far as I know (unless it’s in the annotations I haven’t read yet), so it’s all speculation. My best guess is that he is a limited personification of Edgli, the Vessel of Endowment—but it bugs me not to know for sure.
In Living Color
It’s a funny thing. In this chapter, not one of the Returned actually does much of anything, but they still manage to dominate the chapter. Susebron mysteriously appears behind Siri, looks at her, gets lifted to his throne, and raises his hand; Siri spends the rest of her time stewing about him and the Returned in general. Lightsong stands looking at Susebron until Blushweaver convinces him to kneel with her. Vasher just stands there and looks at Vivenna; she runs off in a panic.
Well, Lightsong will remedy some of that lack of action next week. In the meantime, we at least get to learn that Susebron has the same Divine Breath as any of the other Returned; that’s not what makes him stand out. That is caused by an enormous quantity of Breath—some of it passed down since the end of the Manywar, but also added to by absorbing an extra Breath every week.
Don’t Hold Your Breath (Give it to me!)
There’s Nightblood again… So what do y’all think?
The strange man didn’t take his eyes off of her. He shifted, pushing back his cloak and exposing a large, black-hilted sword at his belt. Few people in Hallandren wore weapons. This man didn’t seem to care. How had he gotten that thing into the court? The people to the sides gave him a wide berth, and Vivenna swore she could sense something about that sword.
Was Vasher giving Nightblood a good look at Vivenna to see if she was good or evil? Or was he giving her a good look at the sword to see how she reacted? If I recall correctly, we’ll have to wait a bit to see any more of their interaction.
As I Live and Breathe
“The God Kings are said to be the only ones to ever achieve the Tenth Heightening. That is what makes light fracture around him, as well as gives him other abilities. The ability to break Lifeless Commands, for instance, or the ability to Awaken objects without touching them, using only the sound of his voice. These powers are less a function of divinity, and more a simple matter of holding so much Breath.”
Ironic, that the one man who can “Awaken objects… using only the sound of his voice” cannot speak. Then again, I guess that was sort of the point. I wonder how many of these powers Susebron even knows he holds.
Background Color
Hey, look at that! Kalad, Idrian royals, Peacegiver the Blessed… the Manywar Saga! Well, a piece of it, anyway.
Siri is questioning all sorts of things this week; this time, it’s the story of why the royal family had been cast out of Hallandren and fled to Idris.
She knew the official story taught in Idris— that the royals hadn’t supported the conflicts that led up to the Manywar. For that, the people had revolted against them.
So the people revolted—for that reason or another—and then the war was ended by Peacegiver, but without returning the royal family to power, for which the Idrians claim betrayal, treachery, and heresy. For perhaps the first time in her life, it occurs to her that the Hallandren probably have a very different version of the story, but we don’t get to hear it today.
According to the histories, Kalad led the revolt, and thus earned the title of Usurper. He then created the Lifeless, though this story seems confused. It almost (!!) looks like he had been part of the original creation of the Lifeless armies, but then built another army of an even more dangerous type for himself. (Which… is more or less true, but at this point I’m not sure if Siri realizes there are two distinct kinds of Lifeless army in play. I’m pretty sure I didn’t, at this point.)
Eventually, according to the history, Kalad was defeated by Peacegiver, who ended the war through diplomacy but failed to restore the royal family. Instead, by Bluefingers’s statement, Peacegiver gave a vast store of Breath to one of the Returned, making him the God King. That store, plus one extra Breath a week, is passed down from father to son, to each God King of Hallandren, and apparently it’s never ever used.
Exhale
Siri, still restricted to a mostly inactive role, spends this chapter conveniently meditating on the history of her people as it relates to Hallandren, and asking oddly useful random questions of Bluefingers. Vivenna, rather than having the luxury of careful thinking and planning, continues to find herself having to react to unexpected situations. I feel like I’ve said this before… this chapter seems to hold its breath as the scene is set for the next chapter. Seems like something had better break loose before too long!
That’s it for the blog—now a minor bit of housekeeping. While the Oathbringer beta read moves forward, I will (try to) continue with one chapter per week, though I nearly wimped out this week. (I make no guarantees… I may actually have to skip a week at some point, just for the sake of my sanity.) Once that’s finished, though, I’m going to attempt to increase the pace; it really does feel like it’s dragging. This may involve a little less detail in the post, but we can make up for it in the comments, eh?
Speaking of which… it’s time for the comments! Join us again next week, when we will cover Chapter 16, in which it’s all about the politics.
Alice Arneson is a SAHM, blogger, beta reader, and literature fan, currently immersed in the new Oathbringer beta read. In case you haven’t seen it elsewhere, the anticipated release date is November 14.
I’ve always been a little weirded out by Austre, myself – he’s the only deity in the Cosmere, that I can recall, that isn’t confirmed as “real”.
I’d just like to point something out here: “She keeps getting new information, and she can’t not process it in light of what she sees before her as well as what she had always been taught” (emphasis mine) Heh…. “…in light of…”. Pun intended?? I’d like to think so…
Anyways, back to the actual content. The thing that stuck out to me in this chapter, apart from the GodKing’s massive BioChromatic aura, was how differently all the characters, not just our two Sisters, react. Lightsong gets all thoughtful, everyone else kneels, but as soon as the King sits, they just go back to life as normal as though nothing big has occurred, and then of course the reaction of the two main protagonists.
How does said story change now that we know that Kalad and Peacegiver are the same person
Could Austre be one of those Bavadin-gods?
I thought the annotations were quite interesting actually, about his decision to somewhat subvert or play around with the evil emperor trope. When I was a teen/young adult I wrote a story (which also involved a fairly over the top evil character) and I still like to play around in it when I’m bored or just need something creative to do. Occasionally I’ll explore alternative possibilities and one of them I did play around with the idea that the villain could use some more development and maybe even have their own arc of development. Anyway. Writing is a fun thing :)
In the second one he talks a bit about how drabs are somewhat like objects, which is kind of scary, really.
This also made me snort: “It feels like I’m lying to the reader when I hide things the viewpoint character knows. I avoid it when I can (though I can’t always—reference Kelsier in Mistborn)”. This is kind of a writing pet peeve of mine. It frequently results in really clunky inner dialogue where a character is thinking – to themselves – about some thing that they refuse to specifically refer to. Plus it just feels kind of coy, like the author is taunting you. I don’t know…obviously it can be done well and is necessary, and can even be really interesting if it’s done well and a good twist. But mostly it kind of sets my teeth on edge, because it’s hard for me to suspend my disbelief sometimes that a character would censor their own thoughts (unless there is a good reason to in story) like that.
And I just finished Way of Kings and that was actually one of the most annoying things about it – I feel like he relied on this A LOT. Especially with Shallan. But I definitely noticed instances where Kaladin did it, and even Dalinar to an extent.
I agree with Austre being Bavadin in disguise. Given how much Idrian culture dislikes Awakening/Returned/everything else related, it would fit with his goal of trying to get people to reject their local Shard(s), just like many people believe he’s doing to Sazed at the Wax & Wayne books.
@Lisamarie
Oh dear. I realize this is likely off-topic, but have you ever read The Traitor Baru Cormorant? It will drive you absolutely crazy
Is Vasher watching Vivenna? Does he know who she is? Or was it just coincidence that they saw each other in court?
@5 Lisamarie
It made sense for Shallan to censor her own thoughts; she’s hiding parts of her own past from herself, so naturally the reader doesn’t get to see things the viewpoint character has successfully repressed. Dalinar and Kaladin make less sense, but I feel like I have to accept the dramatic cutaway scene. Stories really wouldn’t work if the villain (or hero) told us their entire plan before they did it.
@9 – I understand that’s what Sanderson was trying to go for with Shallan, but I just wasn’t buying it. Maybe it’s just my internal monologue is very verbal, but even things I’m embarrassed about/don’t want to think about/incredibly anxious about, I don’t refer to them in my head as ‘the incident’ or whatever (I’m not saying that’s a literal example from the book), I just…call it what it is. Plus it just seemed to happen a lot – the author is clearly trying to tease you by making some oblique reference to a thing that you don’t know about but the author does. It felt a bit overused – within a few POVs of hers I knew she had something mysterious regarding her past so it seemed like it would have been more natural to not have the POV character think about those things at all.
I didn’t get the impression Shallan was in any type of fugue state or repressed memories that would explain why her internal monologue was like that.
I understand this is 100% subjective :) It doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy the book.
Vivenna’s thought that holding breath was terrible because it was so wonderful reminds me of a friend’s description of trying cocaine. He was in a fairly successful touring country band years ago and fell into the partying lifestyle quite easily but forced himself away from cocaine after trying it a few times saying that it was just too good. He knew he would never want to stop if he continued so he stopped right then.
At Lisamarie. I too have always had trouble understanding characters with repressed memories until something happened about three years ago that was so painful (though fortunately not tragic, no one died or anything) that I actively try to block it. Just thinking about it is incredibly painful and I really have to force myself to think of something else. Just writing this is turning my stomach in knots so now I kind of understand.
I have a similar thing in my past and unfortunately my mind’s mo is to think about it in incredible detail and spool through the whole damn thing. So maybe that’s why to me it doesn’t read as relatable.
Lisamarie @@@@@ several – Have you read Words of Radiance yet? You may understand Shallan better after reading it. FWIW, Brandon consulted with a professional in the field to make sure that Shallan’s intentional, selective amnesia was done right, given the backstory.
sheiglagh, Vasher is probably knowledgeable enough to detect that Vivenna is a “partially Returned” and thus member of the Idrian royals, and can also detect that she’s carrying hundreds of Breaths. That’s enough to get someone’s attention.
Thanks CarlF @@@@@ 14
I have not – I needed a break after reading Way of Kings. I think I basically read her first chapter and that was it.
But it’s interesting that you mention selective amnesia because when I was reading it, I totally didn’t catch that it was meant to be amnesia. There’s a difference between showing a character who literally can’t remember or whose mind just can’t/won’t access the memories (for example, the narrative device where Dalinar can’t remember his wife makes since. His actual CHARACTER can’t remember what happened) vs a character who remembers it but then the author just uses weird internal dialogue to not reveal what they are actually thinking about for the express purpose of hiding it from the reader. I had definitely gotten the impression it was the latter. I mean, I get that they were not pleasant memories that she wanted to dwell on but I wasn’t getting the impression that she was actively repressing them and could not access them.
Or maybe it was the tease that bothered me? It makes sense that sometimes a person might think, “Her mind went back to – no, I don’t want to think about that.” That’s actually cognitive therapy thing I use myself because of my tendency to spiral into these things. I guess after awhile it just seemed to happen so often that I just wanted to be like I GET IT. SHE HAS A SECRET. CAN WE PLEASE MOVE ON?
So far my reaction to this book has been mixed and I’d put it pretty much square in the middle of his stuff (it’s only the first book so I expect this assessment to change once the whole series gets a chance to develop more of the themes and characters! Obviously there is tons of groundwork and mystery being laid here and I’m sure going back would then reveal all sorts of subtle and hidden stuff in this one). Maybe part of my frustration is just that I’m in a point in my life where I realize I have limited time left on this world, and a finite number of books I can read, so there’s something about being 600-800 pages into a novel and realizing there are still so many unanswered questions, not a ton of plot movement, and do I really want to invest in another Wheel of Time/Sword of Truth/Game of Thrones/Russian novel binge, etc sized epic saga to get all these questions answered (the answer is always yes, btw, haha).
I think part of it is that for the past few months/year the books I’ve been reading have been pretty tightly plotted and quickly moving. In fact, it’s been mostly Sanderson’s short stories and YA stuff (which I adore). So I have to get back into that mindset of a reading something that has a long haul and where the payoff is much further off, and just enjoy the sprawling-ness of it. The journey before the destination. (OMG. I was not even intending to make a Stormlight reference there but once I typed it out I realized that is kind of perfect…).
But anyway – that’s actually really cool that he got some research done on it.
@16 Lisamarie, let me second Wetlandernw’s response. Once you read Words of Radiance, the reason for Shallan’s repressed memories will become apparent. She becomes a much more sympathetic character in this book. Even Kaladin with his bias against the privileged Light-Eye class ultimately learns to appreciate what she has had to overcome in order to function. As to the others that you have mentioned. Dalinar is the victim of a magical intrusion into his mind such that he has totally forgotten his late wife, or even her name (he can’t even hear it when a family member refers to her). Kaladin doesn’t appear to have repressed memories. It’s just that he has basically given up while in the slave wagon and refuses to think about his former life as a successful squad leader in Amaram’s army. His objective in that state is to avoid anguishing about his fate. This is all believable for me and, apparently, for many others. I trust that you may come around as well once you’ve read the 2nd book.
Yes, Dalinar was an example I gave where there is actually a legitimate reason (although there might have been a few other things but I can’t remember). With Kaladin it was mostly the frequent ‘reminiscing’ back to some horrible thing that happened and is the reason it put him back in prison and led to his hatred of Amaram (this actually wasn’t as bad and I think is an example where it more or less just whetted your curiosity). But with Shallan it seemed over the top and like I said I didn’t twig on to it being a literal repressed memory. I think what I am complaining about (as a nitpick) is the writing device of going out of your way to have the character think about something that you don’t actually want the reveal, simply so you can (as the author) emphasize that it’s something you’re not yet ready to reveal.
If Shallan does have repressed memories that in that sense it does serve as a payoff/foreshadowing that is establishing her character. But when it’s in a character that is otherwise of mentally sound mind I just find it annoying when overused because it’s kind of like the author teasing/baiting you especially when it’s over the course of such a long book and you still feel like nothing has really been answered. (I can’t remember now if one of the big reveals about Shallan and her father came at the very end of the first book or in her first chapter in the second book; but at any rate it was still a pretty long time coming. And I don’t recall thinking that it was something she had been repressing. But you might be talking about something totally different I don’t know yet :) ) Like I said, I have to transition back into the mindset of reading a very long saga.
Actually, I don’t even mind Shallan as a character at all; of the main characters I found her and Jasnah to be BY FAR the most interesting. And I see a lot of myself in Shallan actually (outside of the thievery, haha – I mean in the enjoying learning and questioning things). I’m sure Dalinar, Kaladin (and possibly Adolin) are going to become interesting/more devleoped, but so far they seem like pretty typical fantasy tropes. Not saying that’s a bad thing or badly written, but just…I feel like I’ve read their story before (again, I have much faith that it will branch out into something totally new).
I know I’m really getting off topic now, but has anyone read The Dresden Files? Jim Butcher does the “hiding the internal monologue” thing big time! It’s especially flagrant, as the books are in the first person. Usually, the character Harry Dresden will set up the “twist” of the book in the beginning, and then never reference it the entire book. The latest book (I think it’s the one where he went to the underworld?) was way out there. The twist in that one involved a certain character that appears later but which Harry sets up in the beginning of the book, and Harry never internally addresses said twist (despite the presence of said character) until it is finally revealed at the end. I think it’s just plain silly.
Lisamarie @18: Shallan has always been my favorite character in Stormlight (and Jasnah is up there). Definitely hold back on judging Shallan’s situation until you’ve finished WoR. (And then join us in the Oathbringer re-read when that happens; I always enjoy your commentary.)
Austin @19: That was the first Dresden file book I ever read (I’d been meaning to read them for a while, but then that one got nominated for a Hugo, so I had to). I enjoyed it a lot (and then went back and read the entire series, and recently re-read the entire series), but I agree with you that that twist probably shouldn’t have been done in a first-person POV.
@18 and earlier. Like they said alot makes sense in WOR. Also reading back a second third etc time I’m finding stuff I missed entirely from those little sections that makes so much sense now.
@18 Lisamarie, @19 Austin
I understand that having a character know something but deliberately exclude it from their mental narrative is often artificial to the point of being ridiculous. I just don’t know what the alternative is. If a character knows something that the audience can’t know yet, and they’re the narrator, how could they avoid both unrealistic evasions and giving away the surprise?
@19 and @20 In regards to Dresden Files I agree it was a bit contrived but he has always maintained Harry as an unreliable narrator due to him believing things about others and himself that were wrong or false. I agree it was a bit heavy handed but this is a case of making the book more entertaining as having the knowledge of his plan from the beginning would have greatly reduced the tension and excitement in the story. He has done similiar things to a lesser degree really since the 4th book where he’ll show you what Harry is doing but not give you the inner monologue or a number of cases where Harry figures it out but that actual thought process occurs off screen and we don’t see all of his plan to stop the big bad. If you pay attention to the first 3-6 books Harry is usually clueless or mostly clueless till the end and in a number only really survives through luck and grit but if you always had him unable to figure out the case/conflict he would soon become come even more lucky than he is or begin to seem really stupid. There is a reason his writing teacher told him doing this kind of story in first person was impossible. I believe overall he has done the best he could.
I too found the long reveal of the issues in Stormlight a bit frustrating but felt the pay-offs were mostly worth it. In Shallan’s case a lot of this comes from both circumstance and situation continuely putting her in situations where remembering aspects of the repressed memory would have been useful and so her mind would bring her to start remembering and then just stop… a bit frustrating to the reader admittedly:)
@@@@@ 19: I recently completed a binge-read of the Codex Alera and I’ve moved directly into a binge-read of The Dresden Files. Which book are you talking about? I wonder if it may be one of the later books, because I haven’t yet noticed what you are describing. Of course, it could also be that I missed it in an early because I am gulping it down so fast.
Alisonwonderland @24: We’re talking about Skin Game, the most recent book. Believe me, you’ll know it when you see it! :-)
Damplander @23: Don’t get me wrong, I still liked the book (and the whole series) a lot. But I really do feel that one was crossing the line for what you should do in a first-person narrative.
With regards to Shallan, I think she actually reveals a lot more than you caught on. If you do a reread you will see things that are so obvious. She makes so many hints to killing her father without actually saying it and she even mentions having a ShardBlade. A lot of readers missed that part.
From WoK chapter 7:
“As always, thinking of her father made her feel ill, and the pain started to constrict her chest. She raised her freehand to her head, suddenly overwhelmed by the weight of House Davar’s situation, her part in it, and the secret she now carried, hidden ten heartbeats away.”
I think that Shallan’s selective amnesia was nicely done with lots of hints throughout, but done with such skill and subtlety that it is very easy to miss. (and the rest of the Stormlight Archives just keeps getting better)
Just reread that and it sounds a little dismissive. Not intentional. I merely mean that in hindsight the hints are obvious. As often happens to me in Sanderson’s work, when I reread, I berate myself for not noticing something sooner. I always vow to myself that I will slow down and read between the lines so that I don’t miss anything. However, as soon as I start a new book, I have to just read through so I can see what happens next! Then of course, I have to reread to catch the things I missed! lol
(I really should just make an account so I can edit my older posts instead of double posting)
@26/27 – hah, I did actually do a little ‘hmmm’ at that part. :) I don’t remember if I was like, “OMG SHE HAS A SHARDBLADE’ (btw, I haven’t read the second book yet so…I guess now I know she does?) but I definitely caught the 10 as significant. And yes, it was obvious that there was something bad about her memories with her father and that he didn’t just keel over.
But looking at that example, to me that doesn’t seem to indicate a repressed/forgotten memory. When I read that, I had the impression (wrongly, perhaps) that she fully remembered what happened, she just didn’t want to think about it (or rather, the author didn’t want her to think about it). And yeah, sometimes that kind of whets your appetite for more clues, but there’s a point for me where it just becomes frustrating. Could just be because I’m switching over from short stories where the payoff comes a bit sooner and I was getting impatient :)
But speaking of ‘duh’ moments, the whole time I was reading what I really wanted to know was why in the first chapter one of the statues is missing from the hall. I felt like that’s got to be significant in some way but no idea why. I kept re-reading that chapter to see if anything else jumps out at me, haha. Anyway, I ended up stumbling across something (on accident – I really should just stay away from the internet until I finish the second book, although as it turns out the question is actually answered in the first book anyway) that basically reveals why that is and I was like ‘oh, duhhhhhhhhhh’.
One of the things about Sanderson’s longer works is the amount of extremely subtle foreshadowing. There are things you can’t recognize as foreshadowing until you’ve read more of the book, and then you remember something from earlier and go “OH, I get it now!” There are some that are just a matter of a couple words – like “ten heartbeats” – that really are blatant clues… but only if you notice the repetiion of that phrase throughout the book, and note the only situations in which it’s used. Many of the hints, though, you aren’t going to register on a first read – especially if you read fast to find out what happens next. You only catch them on a reread or when you’re talking about it with friends.
The Stormlight Archive is definitely harder to read than most series in certain regards. You know that you aren’t going to get the final payoff until Book 10 comes out, and there’s a lot of writing to be done between now and then. And each book is so massive, it really is like reading four books at one go. (For example, Oathbringer can be sketched out as three novels, two novelettes, and a collection of short stories; the first “novel” is over 130K words, so it’s a long novel by most measures. That’s as much as you get in most series in six or eight years.) To catch all the foreshadowing is nearly impossible, really, and you shouldn’t expect that you will. Even the beta readers who are going through it slowly with a fine-tooth comb looking for the slightest inconsistency will not catch every instance, try as we might.
On the other hand, Sanderson does craft each of those books-within-a-book to have its own climax and its own payoff. Even if those are primarily leading you on to the next “book,” there’s a satisfying crunch to each one of them. Of course, when you’re not particularly invested in one of the major characters, it’s harder to appreciate, and each character has a definite arc that will make you want to hug them one minute and slap them the next.
At the end of The Way of Kings, a lot of readers didn’t like Shallan. She came across to them as spoiled, immature, and generally annoying, and some were really bummed that the second book was going to be “her book.” I said then what I’ll say now: Read Words of Radiance. When you get done, you may still not like Shallan, but you will definitely see her differently than you do now. And when you’re done with that, read Oathbringer, and you’ll see her differently again. None of the characters are static, and none of them are done growing yet.
I just hope he finishes it before I get too old and senile to appreciate it. :)
I actually have no problem with Shallan at all. I never said anything about not liking Shallan. I knew from various internet rumblings than she was not a popular character but when I was reading I couldn’t really figure out why. I mean, yeah, she wanted to steal this thing, and that’s wrong, but I found her character pretty interesting and even kind of relatable and basically stuck in a bad situation. Maybe because I really relate to the desire to be a scholar? And her love of natural science. And her desire to understand ethics/morality on a deeper level. And her struggle to overcome her own anxiety. She did not seem spoiled to me, just a little sheltered.
My frustration was more with the narrative technique that I noticed most often with her character, not her character herself. In fact, the parts with her and Jasnah were the parts I looked forward to the most in the book. As compared to Adolin whom I found dreadfully dull (sorry, Adolin!). I’m sure there will also be a lot there as well to unpack but he struck me as kind of generic so far – but he also seems like the kind of character who is poised to gain more depth as the series goes on. Dalinar at least had some pretty interesting stuff going on with his visions and internal struggles regarding the warrior philosophy. (Confession: I find battle scenes in general really boring in pretty much every single medium so I glazed over during a lot of the battle related scenes unless it was something very character-development heavy. It is nothing against Sanderson. :) I think it’s just because I have a really hard time visualizing things in general, so once they start talking about flanks and brigades and squads and troop movements (or even parries and thrusts and sword maneuvers in a one-on-one battle) it’s a complete muddle to me. Obviously some people are super into that kind of thing though so I don’t begrudge them that.)
I hope this isn’t spoiler territory, but the narrative technique that irritates you so much is in fact a foreshadowing which comes to fruition in the second book. Looking back, there are some less-than-obvious hints that this is the case, but I don’t want to say too much. If you want to take a slight risk… (roll over to read) there are times that she obviously refuses to think about something painful, and times when her mind just won’t go somewhere. This is significant.
Lisamarie @@@@@ 30 – No offense meant when I say this, but, why do you keep on reading Brandon Sanderson? From what you said, you don’t like his narrative. You don’t like the characters. You find Shallan too sheltered, you find Dalinar too warlike and glaze over the battle scenes and you find Adolin to dull. Is there a character you like?
I am glad you are here, sharing your experience with the books and you are part of the conversation. I am just curios why. Again, no offense meant. And if this offends you, I apologize.
Just a quick note regarding Austre / Endowment:
They are almost certainly not the same person, given that Endowment is female (reference) and Austre is not (reference).
One of the things I like most about Dalinar is how he really isn’t a warlord anymore. He is a once supreme warlord that is finally beginning to see the error in his ways while at the same time realizing that the world may very well need those skills from him after all.
I’m definitely in the camp of people that did not like Shallan but the second book changed that very quick. Actually I was warming up to her a bit by the end of the first, the second just cemented it. Now I love her dearly.
@28 lisamarie I’ll bite, why is the statue missing?
@31 I am not going to read that :) I think I’ve already spoiled myself enough in a few other venues. I’m still very early into the second book (real life got distracting for awhile so I had to set it aside) – in fact I’ve only just finished the first chapter (Shallan’s) a few moments ago. Actually (whiting for spoilers) I actually started laughing out loud when Jasnah announced she was trying to broker a betrothal with Adolin. Now that is NOT something I saw coming in his thread. So there you go, I guess his character is going somewhere ;)
@34 I agree! (Re: Dalinar). I suppose in some ways it’s a common trope but it’s an interesting one for a reason. I liked Shallan from the start, so we’ll see if she just gets cooler. But anybody who is willing to stick their head underwater for science is an A+ in my book.
@35 (whiting for spoilers) The explanation I came across is that in the interlude where the mystery employer is destroying artwork, it’s all artwork from the same Herald, which is the same missing statue. Furthermore, she’s destroying artwork representing herself. There are also some of the epigraphs that seem to lend credence to this.
@32 – I guess I don’t understand this question at all and feel quite put off by it. I think there have been several points in the comments where I pointed out things I liked, characters I liked (like for example how I actually don’t dislike Shallan at all- in one of my above posts I even said that she and Jasnah were my favorite part of the book – and wonder why so many people did at first. Where did I say she was ‘too sheltered’? I said that perhaps she was “a little sheltered”, and maybe that’s why others saw her as spoiled, but seeing as how most of her life was literally lived under her father’s thumb and she was barely allowed out of her gardens – that’s like the exact definition of the word) and my anticipation for the payoff of the series, and how I’ve been adjusting my expectations for the transition to a more long series. As well as commented on how much I have enjoyed his previous books (maybe not this thread specifically but I know I’ve mentioned it before). Does that mean I have to think every single narrative device was pulled off well? Or every single plot element of a 1200 page book? My initial, subjective reactions are still that, and I apologize that I express myself so poorly or come off as overly critical. But if this is how I come across, then it’s probably best that I leave off here.
I mean, not to speak for others, but let’s just say that for certain people, “Adolin whom I found dreadfully dull” might be fightin’ words. (:
Hey, let’s talk about Warbreaker! “Who is Austre, for reals?” Per SunDriedRainbow@1,
Me, I’m hoping he’s not real. Even in a fantasy world, must all religions have a kernel of truth to them? (By which I mean literal truth, not just “something useful to be gleaned, philosophically”.) Can’t there be at least one belief system rooted not in actual historical gods and events, but in myth, superstition and coincidence? Can’t there be one completely false god?
I suppose Sazed’s Book of Endless Religions probably includes a lot of gods who don’t really exist, but I don’t remember specific ones mentioned. (Of course the details were at least partly in service to the deus ex metallis at the end, which in turn needed some practical science, not gods.) Been quite awhile since I’ve read those. (Guess I should read M:SH, too, shouldn’t I? I did buy AU.)
Late to the party, but wanted to comment.
I agree with a previous post Austre is not a “real” God but probably was a real person once upon a time. Who eventually through myth became a God to the Idrian people.
I tend to agree that Austre in particular isn’t/shouldn’t be a real supernatural being in the Cosmere, but it would be interesting (and characteristic of Brandon Sanderson) for some of the gods of that universe to not be Shards or Splinters of Adonalsium. I mean, introducing new forms of magic is kind of his thing.
I feel like Vivenna suffers from a very real and common malady known as Confirmation Bias. Everything she sees simply confirms and reinforces her beliefs – even when they shouldn’t. I try very hard to avoid this in my own thinking, but it can be difficult. I also think that she has yet to learn (but will by the end of the book, I believe) that good people can do good things for good reasons even when they believe very different things than she believes. People shouldn’t be judged based on your own standards, but on their adherence to their own standards.
On internal monologue censoring: I seriously don’t understand how this is an issue for someone. We’re not hearing all of the character’s thoughts (and it would be boring if we did). We are getting snippets – brief instances where they’re thinking (usually) about a specific scenario. I certainly don’t walk around all the time constantly thinking about things that have happened in my past – why on earth should I expect every single glimpse into a character’s head to include an entire history of everything they’ve ever done? That seems silly.
In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever read a book where the entirety of a character’s past, plans, and future dreams/goals were revealed the first time we meet them. I am pretty sure I wouldn’t be very interested in that book.
Bottom line: Brandon Sanderson has earned my trust as a reader, and I’m going to expect good books that make sense right up until he proves me wrong. ;)