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5 Things Gandalf Should Have Admitted to the Denizens of Middle-earth Instead of Being a Jerk

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5 Things Gandalf Should Have Admitted to the Denizens of Middle-earth Instead of Being a Jerk

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Rereads and Rewatches The Lord of the Rings

5 Things Gandalf Should Have Admitted to the Denizens of Middle-earth Instead of Being a Jerk

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Published on September 6, 2017

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Gandalf, Lord of the Rings

Look, we all get it. He’s based on Odin of Norse mythology. He’s good-natured and kind, and he’s also an otherworldly being with some macro concerns that are hard for mere mortals to conceive. But Gandalf the Grey had plenty of faults, and one of his biggest was withholding information from people to suit his particular plans.

Yeah, it all worked out in the end and Middle-earth was saved from darkness. But some communication would not have killed the guy.

 

1. You’re Heading to the Mountain to Reclaim Your Heritage, But I Really Just Need You to Kill This Dragon

Smaug, The Hobbit

A bunch of dwarves and their wizard pal show up on Bilbo Baggins’s doorstep, eat all his food, and propose to him. (Will you be our burglar?) They tell him that they must go to the Lonely Mountain to reclaim what is rightfully theirs, a kingdom full of treasure that was stolen by a great dragon. Their rightful king, Thorin, is kind of a pompous guy, but the point is sound; the dwarves are essentially a refugee people, driven from their homeland and their sovereignty by a greedy giant wyrm. Greed still causes too much trouble in the end, and also demands of reparations from the wood-elves and the people of Laketown; a giant battle ensues that leads to Thorin’s death, and brings an end to his baker’s dozen band of brothers, plus Bilbo.

But Gandalf was pulling for this little adventure to go down for one particular reason: the Lonely Mountain had a dragon problem. One that Gandalf didn’t want to see used for nefarious purposes. It’s never made clear whether Sauron would have had control over Smaug (seeing as Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth, the guy responsible for making most of the scary stuff on Middle-earth), or just have been able to convince him to join his side once he had amassed more power, but Gandalf was definitely concerned about having a great big dragon around to help the bad guys. So helping Thorin was largely a means to an end, one that he neglected to mention. Seeing as the aftermath of this adventure led to the deaths of Thorin and his kin, it would have been nice to bring up maybe once.

 

2. Being a Ring-bearer Won’t Stop Your Home From Becoming a Casualty

Gandalf, Lord of the Rings

Nothing quite like telling a kid who’s just come of age to hold onto the most evil item in the world without really explaining what it is, then showing up seventeen years later and being like “Hey, so that thing I left here is maybe the most important item in the world currently and your location was compromised, so you should probably hightail it to elven territory.” Gandalf does his best to make it clear that the Ring does terrible things to its bearers. He almost prepares Frodo properly for the burden it will place on his soul. To be fair, it’s hard to communicate that sort of thing to a person who hasn’t really seen the kind of darkness Sauron is capable of raining down.

But Frodo and his hobbit compatriots sign up for this journey with one major caveat—they want to protect their home. They honestly believe that if they can defeat Sauron in time, the Shire won’t get hit in this war. And Gandalf doesn’t really disabuse them of that notion. Others do, certainly, particularly once Frodo looks into Galadriel’s fancy mirror. But it would have been nice of Gandalf to be a little more forthcoming in that regard. He’s closer to them than all the elves are and they trust him, so it might have been a little less jarring coming from him. After all, knowing that your home will inevitably be drawn into the fray is still a good reason to get out there into the world an do something about it.

 

3. Sorry I’m Acting Like an Ass, Being Resurrected Kinda Futzed With My Memories

Gandalf, Lord of the Rings

You know when you die, but then you’re resurrected in a newer, fancier form? Gandalf seems to leave his compatriots in the Mines of Moria when they startle a Balrog into wakefulness, but the Valar (who are basically the gods of the Middle-earth) bring him back to life with an upgrade: He goes from being Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White, a promotion for him and an intentional demotion to old head of the wizard order, Saruman the White (because he’s been hanging out with the bad kids, making nastier soldiers and ripping up forests). While Gandalf’s friends are delighted to see him returned, they are a bit perplexed by his manner when he arrives. Namely the fact that he doesn’t seem to care much about any of them despite their previously ingrained bonds of fellowship.

Turns out being brought back to life makes you forget the previous one for a bit. But rather than making that clear from the get-go, Gandalf just goes around being full of purpose and utterly dismissive of his comrades. It would have taken him literally ten seconds to correct this. I understand that wizards are kinda the kings of brevity in all places where you wish they weren’t, but this would have prevented a whole lot of head-scratching and assumable hurt feelings. “Sorry, I don’t really remember you that well right now! Give me, like, a week. I promise I’ll care about you then.” Being dead is weird, coming back is weirder, but your friends are still your friends.

 

4. Peregrin Took, You Should Not Touch the Palantir BECAUSE IT’S EVIL

Pippin, Palantir, Lord of the Rings

This one is pretty obvious because Gandalf even admits that he screwed up. He took the Palantir from Saurman and told Pippin not to look at it… but he gave no explanation as to why that would be important. None whatsoever. To Pippin. The baby of the group. The one he constantly decries for being foolish and clumsy and thoughtless. The member of the Fellowship who seems to distill all the hobbit potential for curiosity into one pint-sized package. And Gandalf just says “No don’t touch that thing because I said so.”

Really? It would have taken too many words just to say “Hey, this thing is super dangerous and will lead the enemy right to us.” Would it have been so hard to give Peregrin Took the tools he needed not to wreck everything? Fool of a Took indeed. Methinks the wizard doth protest to much and should maybe take a look in the mirror next time.

 

5. LOL After I Take This Horse, No One Else Will Be Able to Ride Him

Gandalf, Lord of the Rings

We’ve established that Gandalf is a fan of doing his own thing without letting people onto his plans, but then there’s the matter of Shadowfax. You know. The lord of horses. The greatest equine in the history of Rohan and all its horse-riding peoples. Gandalf has a moment where he needs some help from King Théoden, and asks if he can borrow a ride for the next part of his journey. And Théoden is very chill about this request and kindly tells old Stormcrow that he can pick a horse and be on his way. So Gandalf picks the greatest of the lot without telling anyone that he plans to do so, and speeds away on the fly-est horse that Rohan has ever known.

It gets better, though. Because Gandalf isn’t a man, he’s a Maiar—essentially an angel in human form. (I am aware that it’s more complex than that, don’t @ me Tolkien fans.) And because he’s such a fancy, special guy, Shadowfax decides that mere humans are not good enough for him anymore. So not only did Gandalf broadly interpret Théoden’s offer by nabbing a horse that he should have respectfully let alone, but after he brings said horse back no one else can ride him. (Unless Gandalf asks him to. Really nicely.) Shadowfax is spoiled for riders now that he has been in Gandalf’s presence for long enough. You might as well give him the horse after that, which Théoden does, presumably because it’s easier than getting into a fight with an angel-wizard.

That’s kind of a dick move, Mithrandir.

Emmet Asher-Perrin adores Gandalf, which makes her wonder why it is so satisfying to call him a jerk. You can bug her on Twitter and Tumblr, and read more of her work here and elsewhere.

About the Author

Emmet Asher-Perrin

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Emmet Asher-Perrin is the News & Entertainment Editor of Reactor. Their words can also be perused in tomes like Queers Dig Time Lords, Lost Transmissions: The Secret History of Science Fiction and Fantasy, and Uneven Futures: Strategies for Community Survival from Speculative Fiction. They cannot ride a bike or bend their wrists. You can find them on Bluesky and other social media platforms where they are mostly quiet because they'd rather talk to you face-to-face.
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7 years ago

The one that always gets me: Gandalf clearly knew Moria had become lethal to set foot in. Yet he lets Gimli babble on about how awesome it’ll be to visit his cousin Balin, and how they’ll all get to enjoy the hospitality of the dwarves.

Yet not word one out of the wizard about how oh hey Gimli, by the way, about your cousin: did you, um, actually check your messages from your family before you showed up at the Council of Elrond? No? Oh, no reason, I was just curious…

And he’s all “let the Ringbearer decide” when the Fellowship has to decide where it’ll go. Without a word to Frodo or anybody else about why, exactly, going into Moria would be a supremely bad idea.

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zegmustprovebrains
7 years ago

I’m iffy about #3. Firstly, the spoiling of the Shire is entirely the book canon, so it’s a bit weird to have a picture of the movie Gandalf above it. Secondly, in the books, Saruman’s escape is the fault of Treebeard and the Ents. Gandalf left them as a guard and trusted them to do their job right. It’s not his fault they messed up while he was busy saving Middle Earth from Sauron. 

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7 years ago

@1 — That’s movie Gandalf.  In the books, the whole reason Gimli had come to Rivendell in the first place was because they’d lost all contact with Balin’s folk in Moria, and nobody in the Fellowship (least of all Gandalf) actually wanted to go through there; it just seemed like the least-bad option at the time.

DemetriosX
7 years ago

 A lot of these, especially points 1, 2, 4, and annathepiper’s comment @1, stem from Tolkien’s Catholicism. All these mortal beings have free will and have to make their own choices without (semi-)divine intervention. Gandalf not doing some of these dickish things would contravene that philosophy and amount to the gods overtly interfering and guiding Middle Earth where they wanted it to go.

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Landis963
7 years ago

@@@@@ Point 5: I thought Shadowfax was already basically wild, and it was seen as a major achievement of Gandalf’s to be able to ride him in the first place.  Or was that the movie version? 

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7 years ago

Seems like wizard mentors (and I feel like Obi-Wan can be counted among them…I mean, Owen DOES call him a wizard after all) are definitely a shifty, inscrutable lot ;)

That said, in terms of secrecy/manipulative behavior I’d probably rank them Gandalf < Obi-Wan <<<<<< Dumbledore

sdzald
7 years ago

Yet that is exactly what Gandalf does, interfere in human, elf, dwarf, etc business at every turn throughout the story.

 

There are many characters in the story I would love to meet and tip a beer back with but if Gandalf showed up at my door I would slam the door in his face because he is nothing but trouble and meddles in the affairs of others for his own personal reasons.  Go ahead turn me into a toad, better that than be turned into a puppet.

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7 years ago

– pretty much, yeah.  In fact, one of Gandalf’s ‘virtues’ as a Maiar is that while he doesn’t end up going full bore detached from the world like Radagast, he doesn’t get overly involved in manipulating events (like Saruman, and arguably the Blue Wizards).  He’s just kind of there to get people in the position to do the right thing and to encourage them.

As for @2, I feel like in some ways the book would not be complete without it, and it’s kinda one of those painful lessons people have to learn for themselves.

Also, the whole Moria thing DID make more sense in the books (Gimli’s total ignorance about what was going on honestly annoyed me in the movie). 

That said, I do kind of agree with you about 4.  Perhaps the original Idiot Ball plot device ;)

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Aredee10
7 years ago

I think the dwarves knew that reclaiming the Lonely Mountain would require killing Smaug. It’s not like he was going to share it with them, or that he would just leave with his tail between his legs. 

I sometimes wonder if Gandalf went through Moria for the same reason he needed to remove the dragon. He knew there was something bad in Moria. I don’t think he realized it was a Balrog, but he knew it was bad and didn’t want to leave it at Sauron’s disposal. In the books he and Aragon knew Moria was a possible route south when they planned their trip in Rivendell. Gandalf seemed to know they would need to go through Moria and Aragorn knew that something bad would happen to Gandalf if they did.

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BookBarbarian
7 years ago

The Palantir isn’t evil. King Elessar ends up using that very palantir to watch over his kingdoms. The problem is that currently there is a guy on the other end of the line that will try to dominate your mind in a contested Charisma check. And Sauron’s got a very high Charisma score.

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Dominic
7 years ago

What about:

6. Oh, by the way…you don’t have to walk.  I have eagles, you know!

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7 years ago

Google “Studio C Gandalf intervention” for another take on this.  (Can’t post link at work)

 

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Crusader75
7 years ago

@@@@@#11 – I think Gwaihir would be very cross at the suggestion that anyone has him or his people other than the Lord of Arda.  At best the Eagles are in a different division of the Company Gandalf works for and only grudgingly help him when he’s gotten himself in a fix.

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Crusader75
7 years ago

I think Gandalf honestly thought the Shire would be the last place that would fall to Sauron (if only because it is out of the way and the Dark Lord would not think it important enough to prioritize).  Gandalf did not realize that Saruman had turned his cloak until after the hobbits had headed to Rivendell.  Saruman took over the Shire specifically to spite Gandalf, which I am not Gandalf expected from a fellow Maia, even one who had fallen. 

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Tom Bortels
7 years ago

That’s all pretty harsh on Gandalf – he had a lot of things on his mind. 

1) Yeah, he wanted the dragon gone. Who wouldn’t? It’s not like the dwarves didn’t know about Smaug.

2) Arguably, hiding the ring or staying in the shire would have been worse. This is Gandalf choosing the least-dangerous of options and trying not to worry the hobbits about things they can do nothing about. 

3) Think of Gandalf as a (temporary) stroke victim. You can’t expect him to explain why he’s being all weird when he’s being all weird. It came back. No fault on him. 

4) Yeah. This is just on G, you got that one. TYPICAL MANAGEMENT. In response to a commenter, the Palantir may not have *been* evil, but it was super dangerous, and not something that fool of a Took should have had his mitts on. 

5) Nobody could ride Shadowfax *before* G made friends, either. Besides – he was on a save-the-world kick, last thing on his mind was “maybe the guys with lots of horses might want to ride this horse they can’t ride anyway”. Really – I’m not sure by what right they pretended they had ownership or domain over Shadowfax anyway…

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Erica
7 years ago

Re #1, Tolkien wrote the Hobbit before he wrote LoTR. At the time, the Hobbit was a stand-alone children’s story, and it’s unlikely he’d worked out the possible connections between the plot elements that emerged in his later works. Gandalf didn’t warn anyone about the possible connection between the dragon and the re-emergence of Sauron because the author didn’t know at the time,

Re #2, Gandalf didn’t know that Bilbo’s Ring was the One Ring until the scene where he tossed it in the fire at Bag End, though he had some worries he was researching for years after Bilbo’s Birthday Party (when Bilbo said he felt thin and stretched). I agree he could have worded his warning more carefully that simply saying what amounted to, “Magic Rings are rare and curious things, so be careful of it,” and he could have tried the fire trick earlier if he was worried.

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7 years ago

 Just a quick note of correction for Emily:

They honestly believe that if they can defeat Sauron in time, the Shire won’t get hit in this war. And Gandalf doesn’t really disabuse them of that notion. Others do, certainly, particularly once Frodo looks into Galadriel’s fancy mirror.(emphasis mine)

It was not Frodo who was shown the destruction in the Shire…at least not in the original text. It was Sam’s vision that included the Shire.

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7 years ago

I’m honestly baffled by most of these points.  Its like someone only watched the movie and heard a synopsis of the text.

1.  What difference would that have made? really.  Gandalf was the one who convinced Thorin & co. to settle on a ‘burglar’ rather than armies, alliances and wars.  He was an outside party that Thorin consulted to help resolve his problem, and he gave him good advice that lead to the success of his quest.  Gandalf had a feeling, that taking Bilbo along would lead to the success of the quest, he did not have any idea how, except that a small, quite Hobbit that Smaug had not smelt before would put the dragon off.  It was just fate, divine inspiration, etc.  He had no idea at the time that this would lead to Thorin’s death, just that he must take Bilbo (probably because Bilbo would find the Ring, as well as lead to the success of the quest, but Gandalf had no idea about that at the time).  This recalls the whole conversation with Frodo when he says  that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, ergo Frodo was meant to bear it as well.  Meant by who?  Certainly not Gandalf.  He’s merely the guy who tries to read and follow the signs.

 

2.  Leaving the Shire absolutely did stop the Shire from being a casualty.  Rather than just a burned out Saruman and a few bully boys, it would have been Sauron, Nazgul, and legion of orcs and other nasty things.  I find it hard to take this one at all seriously.  At the time when Gandalf encouraged Frodo to leave, he had no idea about Saruman’s treachery, so even if he was aware of his college’s contacts in the Shire, he had little reason to be overly suspicious of it.  It wasn’t until Saruman imprisoned him and he could not meet Frodo for his journey that this possibility would come to light, and everyone had bigger fish to fry at that point.  Elrond tried to send Merry & Pippin back to warn and prepare the Shire, but they would not go (and would not be listened to) and Gandalf supported their inclusion in the Fellowship.

 

3. I don’t remember him acting like and ass (or at least not more than usual), he just seemed a little disoriented from his experience and no longer having the same perspective, this one seems a little bit of a reach.  You don’t expect dead friends to pop up and say “I’m back”, so even if would have shouted out: “It’s me Gandalf!”, I’m not sure A, G, &L would have reacted any better.  Besides, the Valar did not “resurrect” Gandalf, but rather Eru (God) did, enlarging upon the Valar’s plan when it failed.  

4.  Gandalf had a lot on his mind, probably still focused on Saruman and worried about Frodo & Sam.  He did not realize what the Palantir was at first, and only after confiscating it from Pippin did he begin to suspect what it was and how it was the link between Saruman & Mordor that he was missing.  Perhaps he should have realized the effect it had on Pippin, but you can’t do everything.  And, not to split hairs to much, but the Palantir is not and “Evil” artifact, just a powerful one one that has been put to use by the Evil will on the other end of the communication line it provides.

**Edit**

Forgot: 5.  Shadowfax, as the Chief of the Mearas and direct decedent of Eorl the Young’s Felarof, was only allowed to be ridden by the King of the Mark or his children.  Theoden was not ridding much at this point, having fallen under the poisoned influence of Grima Wormtongue, and Shadowfax had never been truly tamed or broken for the saddle (indeed he had never, and would never bear a saddle).  True, when shadowfax finally returned, he was even more wild and untamed than before, but he had chosen his master by that point. 

And Theoden is not very ‘chill’ about Gandalf’s request, he would not listen to Gandalf’s warnings about Saruman (which would have saved him a lot of grief if he had), gave ole’ G the cold shoulder (so in that sense he was ‘chill’) and told him to take a horse and be off.

 

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7 years ago

#1 – If the dragon had to die; so did the Balrog; logically.  That’s a fairly well balanced party to bring against that boss battle.

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jlowe
7 years ago

Another example of Gandalf being crafty was bringing Merry and Pippin along when the Fellowship departs Rivendell.  It’s passed off in the book as the act of a soft heart.  However, when you consider that the Fellowship’s mission was going to rely on stealth and deception, it’s not unreasonable that Gandalf saw the value in taking along a few decoys.

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ajay
7 years ago

What about:

6. Oh, by the way…you don’t have to walk.  I have eagles, you know!

Good point. They could have simply flown all the way to Mount Doom on eagle-back. Much easier. The only way that plan might have gone wrong would be if Sauron had some sort of, I don’t know, band of ever-vigilant immortal sorcerer-warriors mounted on enormous flying creatures that could have stopped them. And we all know he certainly didn’t have anything like that!

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Micael Gustavsson
7 years ago

Yes exactly, when the plan is to sneak in without being noticed, going in with eagles in full sight is a clever plan. It is even smarter since they cannot drop the rings from above, but has to dismount to get i to the cave.

And of course we should not forget the risk of Gwaihir getting tempted by the ring and turning into the Dark Eagle Lord of Middle Earth.

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Elnator
7 years ago

1) he knew smaug was a threat.  Thorin already wanted to take his home.  He gave them the only means to do that by including Bilbo.  In the books he made it pretty clear that without Bilbo the quest would fail.

2). He didn’t know it was the one ring when he originally left after Bilbo’s party.  In fact the books make it clear he didn’t think it was any of the major rings of power initially.  He also didn’t know of the fire text until he found Isildur’s notes about the ring in Minas Tirith’s archives during the 17 years he was gone researching the ring (and tracking down Gollum)

The Shire being conquered by Saruman wasn’t his fault either.  For 1:. At the time he didn’t know Saruman had gone bad and 2. The Ents failed their task to guard orthanc and keep Saruman locked up.

3) not his fault he couldn’t remember.  Actually if you read the books he does tell them up front that he doesn’t remember much.  In fact he barely remembers his name initially.

4) yup… He really should have been more clear about the Palantir.

5) shadowfax couldn’t be ridden by anyone before Gandalf either.   Have you even read the books?

Oh.. and Moria… Both Gandalf and Aragorn made it very clear that going through Moria was a bad bad idea.  And the books clearly state that Gimli knew something had happened to Bailin because he had cont to rivendel partially to find out why they’d list touch with him.    That said he probably knew he’d need to do something about Moria since he knew there was an ancient evil there.  Though he didn’t know it was a Balrog till they ran into it.

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7 years ago

@14 If I remember correctly, in the book during the council of Elrond, they discussed hiding the ring somewhere.  Gandalf said if Sauron took over all Middle Earth, that Rivendell and Lothlorian *and* the Shire would be the last places to fall, but that they would fall eventually.  So, he probably did think even after knowing of Saruman’s treachery, that the Shire would be safe enough, at least for a time. 

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7 years ago

hoopmanjh @@@@@ #3: Fair point, well argued! I’d forgotten that. Clearly I need to re-read the books again. Oh darn, oh darn. ;D

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Jade Phoenix
7 years ago

” He’s based on Odin of Norse mythology.”  Um, no.

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Kathryn
7 years ago

This Withholding of Critical Info is pretty standard stuff in literature and movies. The one that irritates me the most is how Glinda in Wizard of Oz makes Dorothy go all over hell and back and at the end is like all, “oh, the slippers will send you home, you had the power all along!” If you think too much about it, it WILL make you crazy.

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Tamfang
7 years ago

Two Maiar, one Maia, everybody.

zegmustprovebrains:  Saruman reached the Shire in person less than two months ahead of Frodo. My headcanon (though there’s no evidence in Appendix B) is that his agents were already despoiling the Shire before the Ents attacked Isengard. Remember that he had at least one agent in Bree almost a year before.

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7 years ago

I think this article shows the power the movies have over our memories of the books that we’ve enjoyed.

The movie scripts made several alterations that have affected our understanding of the books of themselves. One of the main things they did was to shorten all of the time frames. Things that take hundreds of years in the books occur within the space of a month or a few weeks. For example, Gandalf’s knowledge of Sauron’s survival and plan takes almost 50 years to develop in the books. Over a hundred years pass between Smaug’s attack and the burglary. The movies gloss over these time frames.

Also I think we all have a tendency to read back into the books all of the motivations and images we have from the motion pictures and cartoons.

A great example is the first point above. Doesnt Gandalf really **alter ** the dwarves’ plan?  Is he concealing things? Yes. Because otherwise they wouldn’t go.

The confusion arises because the movies make the dwarves’ ambitions more noble.

In the books, the dwarves are not specifically going back to reclaim Erebor, or even necessarily to destroy Smaug, — only their treasure “After that we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often enough sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coalmining. But we have never forgotten our stolen treasure. And even now, when I will allow we have a good bit laid by and are not so badly off”-here Thorin stroked the gold chain round his neck-“we still mean to get it back, and to bring our curses home to Smaug-if we can.”

As Bilbo falls asleep he hears their songs again:

“Far over the misty mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day,
To find our long-forgotten gold.”

Later in the book to get is greed for the treasure of the mountain that drives Thorin, not revenge. Only after the death of the dragon does he begin to imagine ruling the kingdom again.

Many of the other points are similarly resolved in the books themselves.

Gimli is a young dwarf who hopes his kinsman still lives. But… The dwarves know there is a problem in Moria because they haven’t heard from Balin in decades. They don’t know what the nature of the problem is. However, it is so risky that everyone resolves to **avoid** going through Moria at first.

It is only when the mountain passes close that they are forced to do so.

Likewise, in the books, we originally learn of Saruman’s treachery from a trap baited by Saruman, using Radegast. Gandalf goes to see Saruman, but at first it appears that Saruman is his own tyrant seeking to defeat Sauron. He says as much:

“‘For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!’

I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.

‘I liked white better,’ I said.

‘White!’ he sneered. ‘It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken.’

‘In which case it is no longer white,’ said I. ‘And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.’ “

The ** full ** nature of Saruman’s seduction by Sauron through the palantir is not known until AFTER the palantir is thrown from Isengard. Gandalf suspects that Saruman has been manipulated , but not the extent of Sauron’s control. Also, Gandalf doesn’t know for sure that the palantirs are all corrupted, that just anyone can use them, or even that they all still exist (e.g. It is a surprise in the book that Denethor still has one). Remember they’ve been missing at this point for 100’s of years.

The movies’ imagery and “condensed” timeframe has altered our perception of the books I would argue.

 

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jms1969
7 years ago

Going quickly over the book logic of each, one by one…

1)  No issue – the goal of Gandalf and the Dwarves was the same, and the fact that their motivation was a bit different doesn’t really factor in.  The dwarves knew very well that the only way to get their kingdom back was to remove the dragon.

2)  No issue – getting the Ring out of the Shire was the best way to save it from being attacked.  The fact that Saruman did what he did wasn’t something Gandalf knew or prepared for (or he wouldn’t have needed to be rescued from Orthanc).

3)  Not really his fault, since it’s obvious from the book that his memory is “fuzzed” at this point from being brought back.  Within a few hours/days he is back to his normal self.

4)  Probably the best point, but only if you assume Gandalf was omniscient and knew everything.  The nature of the palantir and it’s link to Sauron only came out over time.  Assuming Gandalf found it out along with everyone else, the actions he took were perfectly reasonable.  The only mistake he made was underestimating hobbits ability to be idiots occasionally!

5)  If the King, who Gandalf is trying to help but doesn’t understand enough to be helped, says take any horse, can you really blame him for doing so?  Is there anyone in Rohan who would have used the horse for any greater good than Gandalf did?

I do agree with others that the motivations behind these decisions are handled better in book than in the movie, but isn’t that always the case?   If the article is meant to refer to the movie rather than the book, there are probably some good points made, but it’s way too easy to find holes in any movie, no matter how well made.  Even a mega-long, three movie adaptation of the books doesn’t have anywhere near the time to explain the background for decisions made by every character.

One of the best things about LOTR is that there are VERY few, if any, logical fallacies in the way the books are written, and almost artificial situations created just for the sake of the story.  Within the world created by the books, and based on their knowledge at the time, the actions of all of the characters, including Gandalf, make pretty good sense.

 

 

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jms1969
7 years ago

Following up on my last post…a good point could be made that the temporary “fuzzing” of Gandalf’s memory is more than a bit of a plot device to make his return a little more dramatic and allow some backstory to be told in a more interesting way.  I’ve read Christopher Tolkien’s books about the writing of LOTR and the history of the various versions and I don’t recall anything unusual in this area.  Does anyone recall if this might be an artifact from an earlier version?  I doubt it – most of the issues with wholesale changes to direction of the story requiring rewrites occurred in the first half of Fellowship of the Ring.

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7 years ago

@16 Erica: LOTR was well underway before Hobbit was even begun. And the rest of the mythology was very deeply probed indeed well before LOTR was begun. Only the publishing order matches what you say.

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Micael Gustavsson
7 years ago

: no, Tolkien didnt begin LOTR until after the Hobbit was published. He had written an early version of the Silmarillion, and other first age stuff, but the only reason he began LOTR was that Allen & Unwin declined to publish the Silmarillion and instead wanted him to write a sequel to the Hobbit.

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7 years ago

@32 rpresser LOTR was not well underway before the Hobbit was published.  You are thinking of the legends and lore of the Elder Days that eventually became The Silmarillion (And even then, Tolkien was modifying and tinkering with basic elements until his death).  LOTR only came about because people (and therefore the publisher) were clamoring for a sequel to The Hobbit

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S Sacks
7 years ago

You need some work on your lore before you write articles for publishers. While Gandalf was a prototype of an Odinic Wanderer, he was in no way “based on Odin” aside from his physical description from a postcard Tolkien possessed. You were more correct when you said he was an angel. Also, the Valar did not raise Gandalf. See Tolkien Letters, Letter 156. Eru Iluvatar raised him, after the plan for which the Valar originally sent him had apparently failed at his death. While the Mearas were famous for being only rideable by the Lord of the Mark or his sons, no one had been able to ride Shadowfax prior to Gandalf.

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7 years ago

@28 That’s not headcanon; that’s canon. The barrels of pipeweed that they find in Isengard point to a connection between Sauruman and the Shire.

It’s been a while since I read the books, but when the other Hobbits are talking about the takeover, I recall it being described as a gradual thing, well before Sharkey shows up.

BonHed
BonHed
7 years ago

Tolkien had been working on the world of Middle Earth for quite some time, at least as far back as his time in the trenches of WW1, but the ring wasn’t anything more than just a magic ring as of The Hobbit. In one of Tolkien’s letters with C. S. Lewis after The Hobbit, he was pondering what to do with the ring. Lewis told him it should be something important.

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dlf1203
7 years ago

The thing that bugs me is on the return journey, they encounter Saruman and Wormtongue. After trading barbs, everyone observes Saruman changing course and going roughly north-by-northwest. Even geography challenged Sam should have realized what country lay in that direction and said “uh oh, this can’t be good.”

I know Frodo wanted to see Bilbo again and where Frodo goes, the rest follow. But  IIRC later Gandalf tells Barliman that the Rangers accompanied them north. Surely a few of them could have been detached to shadow Saruman and keep him causing trouble.

 

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QuantumSam
7 years ago

Stop whining about elements that make the story. For one in human form, Gandalf has human weaknesses. For two, that’s what makes it interesting. 

Just go watch How It Should Have Ended.  If Gandalf had done it totally correctly, the Ring would have been thrown into Mount Doom in 3-4 chapters at most. Why walk when an eagle can take you? Why wait until Sauron has nearly defeated everyone? Why not have Frodo toss the Ring into the Mount or do it himself?Because that’s what makes it an epic!

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Masha
7 years ago

About comments for #2. Don’t blame Ents for that, it wasn’t Ents fault. Saruman sent his agents to start messing and destroying Shire within weeks after Fellowship leaving Rivendell. Either because Sauron ordered him for temerity of Hobbits hiding his ring and later to mess with Gandalf. By the time Ents released Saruman, Shire was already on its way being ruined with Saruman riding in as a final boss almost at the end of his conquest. By the time Hobbits returned to Shire, Saruman was installed there just for couple of months. The whole despoiling of Shire lasted far longer than that.

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7 years ago

If you accept LotR as an allegory for WW2 then the Eagles being too snooty to get involved during the early parts because it doesn’t involve them and they don’t see the threat Sauron poses, it all makes perfect sense. The Eagles are the Americans. Thanks for showing up, eventually, Sam. Sam Eagle

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7 years ago

@25/Annathepiper — Always happy to give someone a reason to go back to the books … :)

BonHed
BonHed
7 years ago

@42, Tolkien rejected the notion that it was an allegory. Some bits of Middle-earth did have origins in his experiences in WW1, the Dead Marshes in particular harkening back to the devastation of Europe after the war. There are parallels between LotR & WW2, but it was not intended as a direct allegory. His plans of ME were formulated well before the events leading to WW2.

@39, Tolkien also rejected the notion that the Eagles would have flown them from the beginning. They would not have been able to slip over the mountains unseen, which would have been absolutely necessary. They also would have been outmatched by the Nazgul over Mordor. They were able to join in the fray at the Black Gate mostly due to the Witch King’s demise, which left the wraiths underpowered.

As for Gandalf’s motives, the original mission statement of the Istari was that they could not directly lead, but only advise and guide. This probably left him no choice in keeping info secret. And after the betrayal of Sauruman, he knew he could not openly share plans, even with such a long-time friend as Aragorn. He barely kept Elrond & Galadriel in the loop.

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7 years ago

Darn, Lisamarie beat me to it.

I was going to say that Dumbledore could give anyone-Wizard or otherwise–lessons in playing things close to the chest.

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7 years ago

Emily, Thanks for the article.

And Random22, thanks for that Sam the American Eagle reference, I think you made your point quite eloquently!  ;-)

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7 years ago

If I correctly understand the awesome LotR reread I’m listening my way through on Point North Media, the hobbits (and Bilbo before them) were partly sustained on their journey by the belief that they were protecting the Shire, and by holding onto thoughts of it as one safe, peaceful, beautiful place remaining in the world regardless of the horrors they were traversing and experiencing. Knowing your safe haven is still out there can be powerful force for endurance, in my experience.

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Robert Dawson
7 years ago

‘White!’ he sneered. ‘It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken.’

‘In which case it is no longer white,’ said I. ‘And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.’ “

Do I detect an echo of William Blake’s disdain for Isaac Newton, whom Blake considered emblematic of “sterile” rationalism, here?

 

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7 years ago

@47/Robert Dawson: I have the impression that Tolkien disapproved of modern science and technology. There’s also this: “He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things”.

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Olddantrucker
6 years ago

Gandalf is a lot of a hypocrite and as for letting Treebeard guard Saruman that is also Gandalf’s fault for not providing crucial information about the inmate.  It’s like having some low level guard protect a high security wing of a prison WITHOUT proper training and restraint measures in this case the suspect is Saruman kinda like guarding Bin Laden.It’s not going to end well no matter how you look at it.

In this case you blame things at the administration level for letting the poorly trained guards in from the forest.  It’s their prison so it’s their responsibility guards can handle the job and to not hire them if they can’t.  simple as that.

 

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Olddantrucker
6 years ago

Gandalf should’ve put his foot down and said NO to treebeard and rejected him as unsuitable for the job.  Hell even Radagast would’ve done a better job as at least he understands the way wizards think and work plus he can detect illegal magic use nearby.   How about one of the blue wizards we never hear about?

Gandalf interferes all the time and witholds crucial information that could suddenly help making an important decision a better one.  He could have simply told Frodo very evil things from ancient times lurk in there and that Moria is a mess.  He just kinda has a dopey attitude.

 

As for the eagles they could’ve taken the same passage Frodo took only no spiders and fly high enough to avoid arrows. They could’ve also come in from the east end of Mordor. 

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Brandon
5 years ago

4. I believe Gandalf did this on purpose. It’s like saying, “Do not push the big red button!” Gandalf considered looking into the palantir himself but wasn’t certain if he should take the risk. Why not allow a useless hobbit to look, instead?

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5 years ago

“@47/Robert Dawson: I have the impression that Tolkien disapproved of modern science and technology. There’s also this: “He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things”.”

Tolkien liked cars but thought they would be bad in excessive numbers.  Which, yeah.

While he was trying to publish LotR, the Great Smog killed 4,000 Londoners with air pollution.  England was so fouled with soot that peppered moths had evolved from mostly white to mostly black.

 

“Hell even Radagast would’ve done a better job as at least he understands the way wizards think and work plus he can detect illegal magic use nearby.   How about one of the blue wizards we never hear about?”

I assume this was a joke, since you know none of them were available.  The Ents were the only ones available who could guard Saruman.