One of the issues I have with the full-season-story model of television is that all too often the creation of a good one-hour episode gets lost in the shuffle. Everyone’s so focused on the big story arc that they forget that they have 42 minutes to tell a single story, and you wind up getting an unsatisfying hour of TV watching on its own. Sometimes this works. The Wire, for example, did a great job of telling one big dozen-episode story each season. But in general, the sweet spot is to find a balance, treating each episode as a single story that’s part of a greater whole. Breaking Bad and its current prequel Better Call Saul accomplish this masterfully.
I have no idea if Star Trek Discovery will do this well over the long haul, but I’m given great hope by “The Butcher’s Knife Cares Not for the Lamb’s Cry,” because it’s a damn fine episode that tells a very good—and a very Star Trek—story in its hour while continuing the seasonal arc along.
Let’s start with what’s wrong with the episode, though: they really need to let the Klingons just speak friggin English already. It’s an established trope—perhaps best executed in The Hunt for Red October—where you have the characters speak in their native tongue for a bit then switch to English to make everyone’s life easier. Whatever interest there is in Kol’s takeover of Voq’s ragtag bunch of T’Kuvma’s followers, left behind in a broken ship after the war started, is drained away by the labored dialogue. While the three actors involved do a better job than Chris Obi as T’Kuvma in the first two episodes—Mary Chieffo as L’Rell, Kenneth Mitchell as Kol, and especially Javid Iqbal as Voq at least manage to convey emotion through facial expressions, particularly via their eyes—the episode once again grinds to a halt every time they talk. It takes them so long to say what they have to say that you’ve read the subtitles twice by the time they move on.
Which is too bad, as the machinations here are fascinating. It was T’Kuvma’s claims of messiah-hood that got this whole thing started, but his followers are left behind on a half-dead ship with only one cool thing on it: a cloak. Kol waits until the ship is almost completely repaired and then takes over by the simple expedient of providing food to the crew. (What’s the old saw about an Army running on its stomach?) L’Rell feigns loyalty to Kol by recommending that Voq be stranded on the wreck of the Shenzhou (from which they have already salvaged a part), thus keeping him alive. One wonders what, exactly, the now virtually alone torchbearer will do with the dead Starfleet ship…
Back on the Discovery, we find out that I’m dumb. I assumed—wrongly, as several folks in the comments pointed out—that the creature that killed the Klingon boarding party on the Glenn as well as Second Security Guard On The Left also killed the Glenn crew, but no, the Glenn crew was wiped out by something else, and that let the creature free.
Lorca assigns Burnham to examine this creature that was able to resist phaser fire and kill Klingons without working up a sweat. Her job is to weaponize the alien, and he assigns Landry to keep her on point.
On the one hand, this is contrary to how Lorca sold her on staying aboard Discovery instead of going back to prison last week. On the other hand, the reason why she was imprisoned in the first place is because she didn’t follow orders. Mutiny was a disaster when she was second in command, it’s not likely to work out any better when she’s literally the lowest-ranking person on the entire ship by virtue of not even having a rank. She learns that the creature is a tardigrade on steroids and that, like Lorca, it’s very sensitive to bright light. She also points out to Landry that every action its taken can be viewed as self-defense.
In addition, Discovery has an urgent mission. There are no ships close enough to help out a colony being attacked by Klingons, but the fancy-shmancy spore drive that both Discovery and Glenn were working on could get them there almost instantly. If it works. Which, so far, it doesn’t.
They take a shot at it anyhow, and wind up in the corona of a sun. Stamets is badly injured, but Burnham notices that the tardigrade reacts to the spore drive being used. Landry quickly grows fed up with Burnham being all science-y and decides to sedate the tardigrade—whom she has named “Ripper”—and cut off its claws, which can cut through Klingon armor and skin. Burnham reminds her that they don’t know how Ripper will respond to sedation, which Landry rather stupidly ignores.
In the end, we get an inevitable security officer death. Rekha Sharma was listed as a guest star, not in the main cast, so it was likely that she wasn’t long for the world, and she was obnoxious and stupid and I’m not going to miss her. (Sharma is a very good actor who deserved a better role than the one-note Landry.) Having said that, wow, this is probably the third-stupidest death in Trek history, by which I mean a character who died 100% due to being galactically stupid. Landry slots into the bronze spot right after Joe Tormolen from “The Naked Time” and the gold standard for thundering dumbasses in Starfleet, Olson, Scotty’s doofus predecessor as chief engineer on the Enterprise in the 2009 film, who blew himself up.
Burnham, at least, shows some brains, as the first thing she does when Ripper gets free is turn the lights up very brightly, causing it to run back into its cell. (Burnham thus proves smarter than everyone on the Enterprise-E in Star Trek Nemesis, since the Remans were also very sensitive to light, and at no point did anyone on the Enterprise order the lights turned up when the Remans boarded. This, by the way, is one of a billion reasons why Nemesis is a terrible movie and an unworthy swan song for the TNG crew, but that’s neither here nor there…)
Lorca tries to use Landry’s death to motivate Burnham, but she still remembers that she’s in a Star Trek show, and she deduces that Ripper wasn’t an intruder on the Glenn but the missing part of the spore drive. Stamets has salvaged everything the Glenn had on board, and there are critical pieces missing, including a harness with nothing to put in it and also a supercomputer or something like it that make numerous calculations. Burnham believes that Ripper is both those missing pieces—it fits in the harness and it can make the calculations. They plug Ripper into the spore drive, travel to the colony and save it from the Klingons.
But Ripper looks displeased and unhappy at how it’s being used.
Tilly goes on (and on) to Burnham about how she saved the colony and how she may be getting a new rep. Then she finally opens the box that came to her from Georgiou, whose will stipulated that Burnham gets her telescope, and also a recorded message from Georgiou saying all kinds of nice things about Burnham that’s just twisting the knife. (Also: more Michelle Yeoh! Yay!)
There’s a lot to like here. The basic story of realizing that Ripper isn’t just a big scary monster is in the finest tradition of Trek (e.g., “Arena” and “The Devil in the Dark“). The Klingon story moves along in an unexpected direction, and we continue the superlative interactions between Burnham and Saru. It’s not at all surprising that Lorca never consulted his first officer on the decision to keep Burnham on board, and Saru’s grumpiness is well played by Doug Jones. In general, Saru is the breakout character here, as his running commentary is magnificent, and Jones does an amazing job of expressing himself through all the latex.
Speaking of running commentary, Stamets’s snottiness continues to be a joy, partly because he gets good snotty dialogue, partly because he’s a scientist who’s been drafted into being a soldier, and he doesn’t like it. (One would imagine he’d get along really well with Leonard McCoy. Or they’d hate each other. There’d be no middle ground.)
Plenty of questions are asked here: what will happen with Voq? what will happen when Burnham realizes that Ripper is in pain from being enslaved to the spore drive? for that matter, what will happen if they discover that Ripper is sentient? (Although the fact that the spore drive requires the enslavement of a living being goes a long way toward explaining why we never saw this tech again…)
By the way, I want to also address a complaint I’ve seen online. More than one person has said that the way you should judge Discovery is thusly: would Gene Roddenberry have approved? The question is being asked with the assumption that he wouldn’t have, and that’s why Discovery is bad. However, this criterion really only works if the person asking the question also dislikes The Wrath of Khan (the most popular of the baker’s dozen of Trek films) and believes that The Next Generation’s first season and The Motion Picture are the epitome of Trek (where in fact both are generally regarded to be awful). We have no idea what Roddenberry really would’ve thought of Discovery because he’s been dead for 26 years. But we know exactly what he thought of The Wrath of Khan because he spent all of 1982 going to conventions urging fans to boycott the second Trek movie because it violated his vision and wasn’t “real Star Trek.” (Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose…) And TNG’s first season and the first movie were the two bits of Trek he had 100% creative control over.
Anyhow, with each episode, Discovery is getting more and more fascinating, and feels very much like a Trek story, from realizing the monster isn’t a monster to the fact that the plot is driven by the need to save people’s lives. It’s not perfect by any means—the labored Klingon dialogue remains a major pacing issue, and I still don’t see why this couldn’t be set 50 years after the end of the Dominion War, thus sidestepping one of the major complaints about the look of the show—but so far, I don’t regret the six bucks I’ve spent to watch the first month’s worth of episodes.
Keith R.A. DeCandido actually was kinda lukewarm on The Wrath of Khan, but it absolutely is real Star Trek, so there, nyah nyah.
Another female officer killed. Is this going to be a trend?
You might not miss her, but I will. Desi women are rare on screen and that was a particularly badly written death. She said she was known for her tactics, then used zero and died horribly. This has taken a huge chunk of the shine off for me.
And now we also know why Discovery‘s saucer is built that way; the spore-drive needs a spinning ring.
@princessroxana- Maybe it’s me, but it seems like the cast of Discovery is actually weighted somewhat toward visible females. If so, then losing another female officer is probably about right, statistically. That said, I’m really going to miss Landry.
The episode and the trailer for the next one set up some interesting limitations for the Spore Drive. Apparently, they need a creature like Ripper (or a 23rd Century Supercomputer) in order to do non-trivial navigation. OTOH, it appears that the process is potentially harmful to the creature, possibly fatal over a long enough period. Moreover, they only have one and no idea where it came from.
At this point, I can’t help but see parallels to the ST:VOY episode “The Equinox”.
Pointless death, spinny thing, unlikeable people continuing to be unlikeable, mishamash of scenes and pacing.
STD just is not performing at all. Turn up the lights, turn down the wilful idiocy, and just dump that badly paced serialisation and they might have a chance at turning this ship around.
I felt this episode worked better than the previous one. It was highly predictable that the tardigrade (they actually called it that!) would turn out to be the missing “supercomputer” needed to make the Spore Drive work, but from a thematic standpoint, it was a nice Trekkish sort of message about how aggressive, warmongering thinking only leads to harmful outcomes and science, understanding, and communication are the keys to success. Although that “success” only ended up getting the creature exploited and tortured, so that thread isn’t over yet. But it’s now pretty clear why Starfleet doesn’t use the Spore Drive in the future — because using it means torturing a living thing. (I’m a bit bothered that this is basically a rehash of Voyager: “Equinox.”) Presumably Burnham will either convince Lorca to free it or stage another mutiny.
Or maybe she’ll convince the rest of the crew to join her in standing up to Lorca. After all, they’re scientists and diplomats by training, not soldiers or students of warfare like Lorca. So this shouldn’t sit well with them, I’d think.
I found Stamets a bit less irritating here than I did last week. Maybe there’s hope for him yet. And I don’t mind that Landry is gone, though I am bothered that she’s the second woman of color we’ve had killed off so far on the show. And we’re nearly 1/3 of the way through the season now and we still haven’t met Shazad Latif’s Ash Tyler, the final supposed regular character.
If Saru has “threat ganglia” that come out when his spidey-sense tingles, why weren’t they visible in episode 1 when he had that stilted line about sensing death approaching now?
By the way, I think we can now dismiss the speculations that Discovery is a Section 31 ship. This episode made it clear that Discovery was not built to serve Lorca’s agenda, but rather as a science vessel and a testbed for Stamets’s experimental drive. It was created and staffed for peaceful purposes, and events have forced it to be repurposed for war. I’d guess that the reason the scientist crew haven’t been swapped out for soldiers is because too many of them are involved in the drive experiment and so they’re needed where they are.
As for the question of whether the series needs to be set pre-TOS, I’ve been thinking about that. In “Errand of Mercy,” Kirk said “We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons. They’ve invaded our territory, killed our citizens.” Since he was trying to justify the current conflict to the Organians, presumably he was referring to events that happened before the current war broke out. And in “Day of the Dove,” Chekov accused the Klingons of murdering his brother in the attack on the Archanis IV research outpost. He was imagining the brother thanks to the evil pinwheel alien’s influence, but if he were imagining the whole attack, then the others in the scene would’ve noticed earlier that he was delusional. And DS9 repeatedly referred to Archanis as a territory that had been historically disputed between the UFP and the Klingons. So it seems likely that that attack really happened at some point. I’m wondering if one or both of these could be the event mentioned in TOS that Bryan Fuller hinted Discovery would depict.
The visual effects are certainly flashy as heck, but I find them a bit lacking conceptually. The saucer hull actually being a spinning gyroscope as part of the Spore Drive is visually novel, but structurally kind of questionable. Are there people in those rotating sections? How robust are the inertial dampers in there? And how do they cross from one section to another? Also, this is the second time they’ve shown a starship coming in extremely close to a planet surface, something that isn’t supposed to be routine or easy. And O-type stars are blue, not orange.
“And TNG’s first season and the first movie were the two bits of Trek he had 100% creative control over.”
He did theoretically have absolute creative control over the animated series, as part of his deal with NBC. But he chose not to exercise it, instead letting D.C. Fontana and Lou Scheimer take charge of the show. Which made it quite hypocritical for him to try later on to declare TAS non-canon because it wasn’t “his vision.” (I’ve come to suspect that he did so largely in an attempt to discredit Fontana’s contributions, as part of his effort to deny her co-creator credit for TNG and hog all the profits and glory for himself.)
Am I the only one who noticed that the tardigrade was acting a lot like Guild Navigators in the Dune universe: i.e. folding space for instantaneous travel by breathing in something whose name begins with “sp”? The Spores must flow…
Credit for the title of the article goes to my wife, Wrenn Simms. We’ll see if the Dune similarities continue……………..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I don’t think it can be said enough how disappointing Nemesis was as the TNG movie swan song.
I wish they’d used Landry better than stupid Trek death.
but honestly I’m surprised that this show is becoming more than I thought, Klingons not withstanding(seriously they need to either add passion and speed to the Klingon speaking language or just use English).
i will say that Kol felt like the first real Klingon.
i think Burnham is already regretting how the creature is being used. And I agree, the way they’re using it seems to against everything We’ve been told Starfleet believes in, so it’d make sense she’d be unhappy about it.
overall all good episode though
By the way, if it turns out the tardigrade can use the Spore Drive to travel through time as well as space, we’ll have to rename it the TARDISgrade.
GUARDS! SEIZE HIM!
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I feel like this show peels back to show a new layer with each episode and the more I see, the more I like it. I really like how they’re giving reasons as to why Stamets is such a pill. More so, I’m glad he has “leginimate” reasons. He feels completely trapped on the Discovery because if he leaves, he basically leaves his life’s work behind. Lorca is a hardass and I kind of like him. While I don’t really agree with his utilitarianism, I think it makes him a better character. He really believes that what he’s doing it serving the greater good.
6. ChristopherLBennett, I’m also waiting for the Section 31 theories to die. They really don’t hold up to deep scrutiny and reek of just assigning anything shady that the Federation does at their doorstep. Do you think they maybe pulled a page from Jason Bourne (the book, not the movie) and just take credit for everything they can to bolster their reputation, while in reality they do very little?
9. Loungeshep, I agree about Kol. I think that is mainly because the greater portion of Klingons we’ve seen in DSC are religious zealots. Kol seems like your prototypical Klingon of the era, i.e. not afraid to backstab their way into power.
What a wonderful episode. Completely Star Trek, and engaging as hell. Lorca is creepier by the moment, and the way he manipulated Stamets was perfect.
“The Spores Must Flow”, that is brilliant, Wrenn!
“But Ripper looks displeased and unhappy at how it’s being used.”
More like in pain and suffering. It’s almost a re-thread (I don’t mind, though), of “Equinox”.
@1 – princessroxana: A male crewman got killed the episode before this one. And another one (that we saw) in the second episode. And the male Admiral in that episode.
@6 – Chris: I wish they would call it “the stardigrade”. About Saru’s threat ganglia, it’s been said that they only flare out when he doesn’t know the source of the danger. If you’re pointing a phaser at him they won’t.
And while I don’t agree with “the ship is a Section 31 ship” theory, those black badge officers are probably from intelligence or special ops, assigned to the ship when it was re-purposed for the war effort.
@13/MaGnUs: You may be right. A common mistake I see among people who are eager to see stories about Section 31 or who try to defend them as the good guys is to confuse them with Starfleet Intelligence, or to forget that Starfleet already has a legitimate, legal and answerable intelligence agency. I often see people compare S31 to the Tal’Shiar or the Obsidian Order, but those are different because they’re official government agencies, so the corresponding bureau would be Starfleet Intelligence — plus there’s probably a civilian intelligence agency in the UFP government as well. (True, Odo made that same comparison in “Inquisition,” but presumably he was talking about their methodology and general lack of ethics.)
As for the male vs. female characters killed, the problem is that the female characters who’ve been killed off were both fairly prominent. There’s never been a shortage of prominent male characters in action-adventure TV, but prominent female characters, especially nonwhite ones, are underrepresented enough that it’s disappointing to see them introduced only to be swiftly killed off. It’s good to have a woman of color in the lead, but it would be better if she weren’t the only one who lasted more than two weeks.
I for one like TNG’s first season much better than TWOK. And I think the people who ask: “Would Roddenberry have approved?” really mean: “Is it true to the spirit of Star Trek?”
@14 – Chris: As I’m sure you’re aware, in the books there is a Federation Security Agency that is civilian intelligence, one would think an equivalent exists in canon; or maybe the Federation Security that appears in ST III is the same agency.
And yes, I understand the difference in who is being killed or not. Still, two of the characters with more screen time are female, even if only Burnham is non-white. It’s also good that we have two gay characters on screen (and one is not white), and Lorca, while white, is presumably not completely Anglo. Those are pluses on my book. (Oh, and L’rell is fairly prominent.)
I was waiting in line at NY Comic Con last week for Jason Isaacs’ autograph and overheard two fans behind me claiming that Captain Lorca is a “Section 31” plant, and that the current plot-line makes sense only if “Section 31” through Lorca is determining the course of the Klingon – Federation war. Am still scratching my head over this. As for Lorca, he reminds me more of Captain Queeg from “The Caine Mutiny” plus maybe more than a mere homage to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I would have preferred seeing Georgiou surviving at least through this episode, maybe as a “foil” to Lorca and his presumably less than noble intentions.
@16/MaGnUs: Indeed, I’ve used Federation Security in a couple of my books. Although I interpreted them as just that, a security/law enforcement agency like the FBI or Secret Service, rather than an intelligence agency. That’s how ST III depicted them. It seems to be David Mack’s books that have treated them as an intelligence agency as well as law enforcement.
18. John Kwok, My personal theory is that while Georgiou is dead, her ideals are alive and well in Burnham. That’s why we had to have the opening two-parter showing Georgiou as a idealistic Starfleet officer. Burnham then realizes that going against what the Federation stands for only leads to suffering and goes all in on her mentor’s idealism. That idealism will come into conflict with Lorca’s more…loose interpretation of Federation ideals.
@20/Jason: Exactly. The episode was actually pretty heavy-handed about it, with Georgiou’s last-will message to Burnham, “Take care of those under your care” or whatever that was, coincidentally being directly applicable to her current situation where the tardigrade is under her care and being made to suffer.
Yes, that was obviously a call back to the stardigrade, who is under her care now.
@@@@@ 20. Jason, I concur completely. However, it would have been fascinating to see some dramatic tension between Georgiou herself and Lorca who, having been given command of one of Starfleet’s most unique vessels, is willing to sacrifice Federation principles… in plain English, allowing the ends justify the means in order to end the Federation – Klingon war as soon as possible.
Anyway to speak of “Roddenberry’s vision”, I will merely point out Seth MacFarlane’s “The Orville” as one that may be adhering to it. I’ve actually seen more of “The Orville” than I have of “Star Trek: Discovery” and its fourth episode, about a lost multi-generation starship, is the one adheres closest to that “vision” as seen on TOS.
Yeah, it adheres so much to TOS’s vision, that it basically copied the plot of a TOS episode.
@24, well, not exactly. As someone else pointed out to me, that “The Orville” episode has more of “The Starlost” in its episode’s DNA than it does of TOS.
I think I mentioned this before, but I will probably keep harping on it, but can we please stop calling what Burnham did on the Shenzhou a mutiny? I know ST is calling it a mutiny and it makes a convenient shorthand, but it’s wrong. Mutiny by definition requires a conspiracy, and you can’t have a conspiracy of one. She disobeyed a direct order, assaulted a superior officer and issued an unlawful military order, but she did not commit mutiny.
Seriously? Sure sounds like mutiny to me.
Also a desire to end a war quickly before more people die should get some credit as a sympathetic motive. Of course that doesn’t mean the means aren’t totally iffy and to be condemned.
Lorca may not be Section 31, but he sure seems like a remake of Captain Ransom of the Equinox. Interesting to note, Joe Menosky was a writer on that Voyager two-parter and is now a writer on Discovery. Not saying that’s why they hired him, just another interesting connection.
A pity we didn’t get longer to know Landry as more than an obnoxious person. In the old days, kids, they waited several episodes before killing the security chief in the first season.
Ignoring the fact that the definition of mutiny has most likely changed by the time of Trek, the British definition of mutiny does require two or more people. The American version does not.
“The United States’ Uniform Code of Military Justice defines mutiny thus:
Art. 94. (§ 894.) 2004 Mutiny or Sedition.
(a) Any person subject to this code (chapter) who—
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.”
And, as ridiculous as things may seem to us, Trek’s universe isn’t ours and just because things are one way in our reality doesn’t mean that they’re the same in another.
@25 – John: Yeah, it has a lot in common with that. But within a Star Trek style environment, it’s obviously For the World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky.
@28 – Bandido: Or they killed half the crew and senior staff in the pilot, as in VOY.
Very good episode. I am enjoying the complexity of Lorca since you aren’t quite sure of what to make if him- admittedly it’s hard to reconcile that this is 10 years BEFORE TOS. not only is the technology disconcerting (it feels more advanced than 100 years later)-but also it’s hard to imagine that he’s a contempory of Kirk. Giorgiou I can imagine being in that time period, but Lorca better have some good explanation to him. Isaacs plays him fantastically, but his character seems incongruous.
#30 — Good point. I wouldn’t mind to see half of this senior staff killed off too. Everyone but Tilly really. ;)
@31/MikeKelm: I have no trouble accepting that Lorca is a contemporary of Kirk, because that means he’s also a contemporary of Matt Decker, R.M. Merik, Ron Tracey, and Garth of Izar. Starfleet in this era had more than its share of unstable or renegade captains. Not to mention civilian Federation scholars and scientists like Tristan Adams, John Gill, Richard Daystrom, and Sevrin.
@29: I’m not sure how you interpret the UCMJ that mutiny doesn’t require more than one person. It CLEARLY states in the passage you quoted ” in concert with any other person” for items 1 and 2. It does not say “alone or in concert with any other person”. Definitions 1 and 2 of mutiny require you to be acting in concert with at least one other person. Definition 3 does not apply to her because that applies to witnesses of mutiny, not the committers.
Her actions were not mutiny.
34. critter42 – You’re right. I missed that part in section 1. However, Burnham is not in the US military. According to Starfleet, what she did was mutiny. At least in the eye of the court and I assume that they’d have a better idea of what Starfleet considers mutiny than we do.
@@@@@ 33, CLB, be fair Garth of Izar was perfectly sane until that catastrophic accident. Since it was reversed by medication it had to have been physically based. Either the result of his injuries or possibly of the training in shape shifting. Matt Decker wasn’t crazy either until his entire crew was killed because he sent them down to a planet destroyed by the Doomsday Machine. Same deal with Ron Tracey. Starfleet captains don’t seem to cope well with losing their commands. And Merik failed to become a starfleet officer.
@36/roxana: But they presumably had the potential in them to begin with — a tendency to be high-strung or arrogant or to bend the rules. It takes a fair amount of ego to be a starship captain. Even Kirk is considered an overly aggressive maverick by later history. So I don’t see Lorca as being out of place in this era.
After all, Lorca is sane and stable, just driven and morally flexible. He’s the kind of person who might become a Tracey or a Garth if pushed too far.
we also now know one of the reasons Klingons are so despised during the TOS era is that they *eat* dead opponents. What a fate for poor Philippa Georgiou.
it bothers me more that they ripped off the idea of the navigator from Dune.
@38/Benjamin: Klingons feasting on the hearts of their enemies was established in DS9: “Blood Oath” 23 years ago. Although that seemed to be more a ritual act than full-on consumption for nourishment.
@39/Wayne: I don’t see much similarity to Dune. Guild navigators are Melange-mutated humans whose exposure to the spice gives them prescience, enabling them to sense and avoid space hazards in advance. Their power is more “sensors” than “engines.” The “Ripper” tardigrade is an alien animal (possibly sentient) that feeds on and communicates with the fungal spores, sharing in their ability to interconnect through a galaxywide quantum network that can be used for instantaneous travel.
Granted, Melange is a material that comes from a funguslike organism, but it seems more like a waste material that’s transformed by exposure to the elements, rather than actual spores.
And there are probably a number of works of fiction about civilizations tormenting alien life forms to use them as space drives. It’s already been mentioned how similar this premise is to Voyager‘s “Equinox,” though in that case the aliens were being killed to extract a new kind of fuel rather than to drive the ship directly. My Star Trek: Titan novel Orion’s Hounds did something along these lines with the space jellyfish creatures from “Encounter at Farpoint.” Doctor Who‘s “The Beast Below” also fits the bill.
I’m waiting for one of the Klingon houses to show up at a Klingon meeting wearing long hair. “Long… hair… is… back… in… style… in… House… of… Mogh!”
#41 — “And… we… have… universal… translators… now… [beep] so we can speak English. Aw, that’s much better. We’ve also brought a dentist to fix those Halloween fangs you got going there.”
The Gene Roddenberry of, say, 1970 through the end of his life when he started believing his press clippings would not have approved. The Gene Roddenberry of 1966-1967 may have. The first season of TOS had its share of darkness.
The reason why (to quote you directly, KRAD) “Jones does an amazing job of expressing himself through all the latex” is because that’s all he’s EVER done in his acting career. Seriously, go look at his IMDB page–you’ll be hard-pressed to find a role that he’s done where he HASN’T been smothered in latex.
I feel less positively about this episode than I do about the last one. There are several good ideas and a few good character moments here, but I felt that they lost or misused many opportunities for fleshing out the characters.
The biggest of these was Landry. She was so one-note and obnoxious and her death so pointless that it left a bad taste in the mouth. They could have used a more realistic version of that incident both to show Landry as a more nuanced person, to explore the differences between Landry and Burnham, and to get some genuine growth in (at least) Landry’s character (if she had been injured but recovered, for instance).
The exchange with Saru in the menagerie also seemed off to me, trying to cast Burnham as darkly manipulative when none of that was necessary….
And I like the idea of demonstrating Lorca’s tactical chops, but I thought he was more interesting and multi-dimensional last episode; here he comes across as a more cliched warmonger commander.
So, have not watched yet, apologies if this was addressed, but…
If Stamets “invented” the spore drive and it’s his life’s work, and it requires a space bug and some other equipment, how is it that the only known space bug and equipment were on the other ship and not Stamets’ ship?
I’m pleased with Discovery so far – including the rough edges of the two-part pilot. The flaws are no more substantial than those that have plagued the early seasons of every Star Trek series. What I particularly appreciate is the blend of exploration of TNG and TOS with the moral ambiguity of the later seasons of DS9.
Visually, it seems like a reasonable evolution from ST:Enterprise with some influence from the Kelvin universe. I find the complaints that it doesn’t match the TOS aesthetic to be ridiculous- TOS has not aged well in terms of visually portraying a credible future. Neither, for that matter, has TNG.
My one complaint is with the Klingons’ appearances, but I’m getting used to them. While we’ve explored Klingon culture in other series’ we’re getting a look at Klingon religious fundamentalists. Their “Remain Klingon” mantra seem like something that may be influenced by existence of the augment virus. Curious to see whether there’s an in-universe explanation presented, or whether we can go on to accept that we’re seeing the universe in a new medium ( premium television rather than network television ) much as a stage production’s sets differ from a motion picture set.
@46/StrongDreams: Invention isn’t a single step. There’s a long road from theory to execution. Stamets figured out the theory of how the fungus was linked and how it could potentially be used for space travel. He’d managed to invent a drive that could tap into that physics, but the computations required to control it usefully were too elaborate for any available supercomputer. But the tardigrade had already taken the final step through evolution that Stamets hadn’t yet reached through the incremental process of invention. It had the computational power that was the final ingredient the drive needed.
Think of all the failed attempts to invent heavier-than-air flight before the Wright Brothers worked it out. Sir George Cayley worked out the necessary theory a century before the Wrights. We knew the physics that would allow artificial flight, but it took decades of trial and error to solve the engineering problems one by one. Even the Wright Brothers’ first “flier” was actually just a ground-effect vehicle, unable to get more than a few feet into the air. It was almost there, but it took something more to achieve that final breakthrough.
Also, scientists don’t work alone. Stamets may have worked out the theory, but he and his colleague aboard the Glenn had been collaborating on it for years, and both starships were built as testbeds for that theory, with each one shepherded by one of the two main experts. It’s just the luck of the draw that the tardigrade found its way to the Glenn first. Remember, Burnham said it was a stowaway, evidently drawn by the great quantity of spores aboard the Glenn. Maybe it teleported (tele-spore-ted?) aboard during one of the Glenn‘s short test jumps, or maybe they scooped it up by accident as they moved through the “mycelial network.” They found it, realized what it could do, and tried to use it in the drive, but their experiment failed and killed them all, because there was a factor they failed to account for.
Have to disagree that the Klingon shenanigans are at all interesting. The stilted and wooden delivery is only the beginning of the problem – the exposition about what happened to Captain Georgiou’s corpse off-screen (of which, why no mention?) essentially removes any possibility of them being sympathetic antagonists. That’s the kind of ‘cheap shock masquerading as thematic depth’ that soured GOT. I’m wondering if I’d lose anything by just skipping Klingon scenes from now on.
Landry’s death also sticks in my craw, but otherwise the episode was stellar.
The way they are doing the Klingons is a serious mistake (from my perspective, of course). They look like space orcs in Elizabethan costume, and the stilted speech delivery is maddening. There was nothing wrong with TNG look of the Klingons, particularly in how it allowed for FACIAL EXPRESSION. I know Klingon looks have shifted, but there is just so much lovely backstory (or in this case, forwardstory??) in what TNG did with Klingons it seems mad to throw it away for the Uruk-Hai of space. And the starship bridge looks the Hyperion from Andromeda instead of a TOS bridge–WHY??? Couldn’t they have done some kind of updated take on TOS bridges? They get the phasers right but not the starships or the Klingons??????
@32 – Bandido: Tilly is a cadet, and not senior staff.
@33 – Chris: Hear, hear. It’s like people haven’t watched TOS at all.
@41 – Doctor Bong: Hah!
@44 – CRB: Yes, Doug Jones is well known for doing roles with a lot of make-up and prosthetics, but you’re not “hard pressed” to find roles where he hasn’t.
@45 – ChrisG: I would have prefered Landry to survive, too.
@46 – StrongDreams: They can use it for short jumps, but he hasn’t been able to figure out how to make it work for longer, more useful jumps. The team on the Glenn had, but hadn’t shared their breakthrough.
@48 – Chris: I like to use the term “fungiported”. And for the engine, “fungine”.
@51/MaGnUs: “Fungine” sounds like an engine that’s powered by playing arcade games and diving in a ball pit.
I know, that’s half of what makes it fun.
Thanks for the great review, Keith. As for Section 31, I’m still on board for at least its involvement, given not only the “win at any cost” treatment of Ripper but the many tech advances on Discovery that are far beyond TOS-level tech (even given the TV budget issues about depicting them), such as the casual use of site-to-site transporters aboard ship. {Jonathan}
All that tech (except for the fungine) is just a new adaptation of Trek stuff, it’s not an indicator of Section 31.
@54/Jonathan Ezor: I don’t follow your logic. What’s the connection between an illegal espionage group and advanced technology? Sure, there are plenty of paranoid fantasies and works of fiction positing that secret conspiracies in our government have access to UFO tech or time travel or whatever, but that’s just the paranoid magical thinking that conspiracies are all-powerful. Looked at rationally, there’s no reason to take it for granted that a small, secretive group whose purpose was espionage and black ops would automatically have a technological edge over everyone else. I could see them choosing to use technologies that were illegal due to their danger or unethical aspects, but it doesn’t make sense that they’d have more advanced tech than everyone else. They’re spies, not scientists.
Besides, the fact that Discovery is a science vessel is a far better explanation in itself for why it would have more reliable intraship beaming. Who’s more likely to have a technological edge — an extralegal spy cabal or a whole ship full of actual scientists and inventors?
Anyway, intraship beaming isn’t actually beyond TOS tech level. Spock said in “Day of the Dove” that intraship beaming was rarely used because of the danger involved, since the coordinates had to be set very precisely. Which means it had been used before, just not often. It wasn’t beyond the existing technology, it was just reckless. And Lorca is clearly a reckless individual.
I wonder if the spore drive is related to the sporocystian energy the Caretaker used in Voyager, and its ability to transport ships great distances in an instant?
@@@@@ 30 MaGnUs, I understand the comparison with “For the World is Hollow and I Touched the Sky”, but that “The Orville” episode had a plot more consistent with “The Starlost” – which was created by Harlan Ellison for those who don’t know and lasted one season – or Samuel R. Delany’s terrific early novel “the Ballad of Beta-2”.
@@@@@ 51 MaGnUs, it’s not the tech itself, but the plot and, especially, the character of Captain Gabriel Lorca, that have led some to think that this is all somehow Station 31-related.
@@@@@28 Bandido, sure there are parallels between Lorca and Ransom, but I don’t think they hold up upon further scrutiny. Lorca commands one of Starfleet’s most unique, state-of-the-art vessels, while Ransom’s Equinox was more a 24th Century equivalent of USS Grissom. And Ransom was motivated solely by his desire to get his crew back to the Alpha Quadrant, while Lorca is far more complex; as I noted earlier, a cross between Captain Queeg (“the Caine Mutiny”) and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
That’d be nice, but they never tied in the sporocystian energy from the Nacenes’ body to the displacement wave generated by the Caretaker’s array.
I’ve seen it suggested (maybe on Facebook?) that Tilly is the Section 31 agent. I like this theory much better than any others I’ve heard about how Section 31 might be represented on the ship – it would mean Mary Wiseman is going to hand in an amazing performance. I’m loving her already, but imagine if she’s just pretending, for all this nervousness? (The other suggestion, that she is on the autism spectrum, is equally good – and hey, why not both?)
Does anyone else find not just the pace of Klingon speech, but the overtones, significantly irritating? I am hard of hearing, so my perspective may be different, but I find Klingon speech almost completely incomprehensible. Not that I speak Klingon, mind you – but I’ve heard and read enough to be able to recognize a few words here and there, and all I get out of the Klingons here is completely unintelligible mumbling. I finally decided it was the vocal editing that does it – the multi-layering of the vocal tones just ruins it for me. Anybody else?
@@@@@ 60 MeredithP, Tilly strikes me as an eager young officer-to-be and probably the closest in eagerness since Walter Koenig’s Ensign Chekhov on TOS. I heard Mary Wiseman discuss her role at the Paleyfest NY Star Trek: Discovery panel Saturday night, and it’s difficult for me to envision her as a Section 31 agent, especially when she hasn’t graduated from Starfleet Academy yet. On the other hand, Captain Gabriel Lorca – as portrayed by Jason Isaacs – would be the more logical choice.
This is the first episode that truly felt like Star Trek to me, but boy, did it ever! Of course, “The Devil in the Dark” is one of my favorite episodes, and the message it contains bears repeating, since that message is still as fresh and relevant and important as when the episode was made, 51 years ago.
My husband and I both shouted, “That’s brilliant!” when Burnham told the computer to increase lighting to maximum when the tardigrade was attacking Landry. The first three episodes mostly TOLD us that Burnham was excellent, which is not something I find super convincing. This episode finally SHOWED us that she’s brilliant, and that was so much more satisfying.
I think Burnham and Lorca are gonna have a huge fight about using the tardigrade. The writers could take this opportunity to seriously examine the moral dilemma involved, and that could be really interesting. All of the people on Corvan II would have died if they hadn’t used the tardigrade, and letting people die is wrong. But torturing the tardigrade is also wrong. Which of those courses of action is MORE wrong? And if it turns out that the tardigrade is sentient — and that seems likely to me, given that it can hold star maps in its head — does that change the answer?
(And if you thought that torturing the tardigrade was more wrong than letting people die, do you eat meat?)
Thanks so much, Discovery team, for giving me an episode that was so Trekkian that it made me tear up a little. :-)
@54, with the ring spinning I imagine intership beaming is the only way to get from one segment to another. Am I the only one who sees that as problematic?
@62 – Corylea: Glad to hear you felt at home. :)
@63 – princessroxana: They can very well have retractable tubes going from one section to another. While the ring is still, hatches on either side can open and close to connect via telescoping corridors.
Yes but what do you do if you have to go from one ring to the other when the drive is engaged?
The outer ring on the Discovery does not spin, just the top “plates.” I watched the windows of the ring during those scenes and they never moved.
@57/jmwhite: That “sporocystian energy” thing was gibberish, a result of writers not paying attention to what the technobabble meant. In “Caretaker,” calling the Caretaker a sporocystian life form just meant that it was a life form that reproduced asexually with spores, basically. But in “Cold Fire,” they fell into the common, lazy Trek pattern of assuming that any advanced superbeing is a being of “pure energy” (which is also gibberish, but that’s another discussion), because they apparently didn’t actually know what “sporocystian” meant and just thought it was an arbitrary label for what the Caretaker was. It makes about as much sense as saying that a bird is a being of pure oviparous energy. Anyway, I always took it to be a shorthand for “the specific type of energy emitted by the beings that we’ve categorized as ‘sporocystian’, for want of a better term.”
Anyway, as MaGnUs says, they never connected the “sporocystian energy” to the mechanism that transported Voyager to the Delta Quadrant. That’s just what the Caretaker and Suspiria were supposedly made of. They used technological means to displace ships — the displacement wave was “some kind of polarized magnetic variation,” according to Kim, and was preceded by a coherent tetryon beam, although the impression is that the beam was merely for scanning.
@58/John Kwok: “it’s not the tech itself, but the plot and, especially, the character of Captain Gabriel Lorca, that have led some to think that this is all somehow Station 31-related.”
But that’s exactly why it now seems unlikely that the ship itself was built by/for S31. People were assuming that Lorca and the ship went together, but it’s clear now that the ship and crew are at odds with Lorca. This is a vessel and crew meant for pure research and exploration. The ship was literally built around Stamets’s Spore Drive experiment, and Stamets clearly hates having his work repurposed for war. He and the rest of the crew are chafing against Lorca’s more militaristic goals and methods.
Anyway, my vote is, leave Section 31 out of it. They shouldn’t be the only group in the Federation that ever gets to do anything sneaky or wrong. And we just got a movie about them four years ago. We don’t need to return to that well so soon.
More importantly, plots shouldn’t just be about exposing secret affiliations. Revealing that “Oooh! Lorca works for Section 31!” isn’t all that interesting. Revealing that he has his own individual, personal motivations for doing the things that he does would be far more meaningful. Even if he is with Section 31, that fact alone isn’t remotely as interesting as the question of why he’s with them, so it’s the wrong question to fixate on. Stories that rely too much on revealing big gotcha secrets are not my cup of tea. The worst thing that happened to the Battlestar Galactica revival is that it became too narrowly fixated on “Who’s the next secret Cylon?” over and over at the expense of more worthwhile storylines. That kind of stuff is more a gimmick than anything else.
@60/Meredith: I don’t understand your issue with the Klingon speech. Does it matter if the spoken words are comprehensible? We have subtitles. Those and the actors’ emotional nuances are all that really matter, though the latter part isn’t as successful as it could be.
@62/Corylea: Sophisticated navigational ability isn’t necessarily proof of sapience, just of being evolutionarily specialized for that particular skill. Think of how salmon are able to find their way back to where they were originally spawned, or how homing pigeons can find their way home.
@64/MaGnUs: There are indeed four crossover bridges visible between the two rings of the saucer, plus the rear spine providing a fifth connection point:
Actually, after rewatching I think the bottom plates spin, too. The actual structure where people would be do not.
@@@@@ 67 ChristopherLBennett, I agree that USS Discovery was never built for or on behalf of Section 31. Nor do I think it is worth knowing that Captain Lorca is working for Section 31. What would be a more interesting question – assuming that he is a Section 31 plant and I agree with you that we should leave Section 31 out of it – is what motivated him to join Section 31, though apparently after watching Episode IV, one might contend that Section 31 may no longer have any connection to him, since his behavior is reckless, to put it mildly. I think it would be fascinating to see how Lorca became the “Captain Queeg meets Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde” character that he may be, losing the altruism present in most of the other Starfleet captains we’ve encountered over the years. Perhaps in a manner reminiscent with regards to how J. Michael Straczynski developed the character arcs for some of the key figures in Seasons Two to Four of “Babylon 5”, with Peter Jurasik’s Londo Mollari the character who may be closest to Jason Isaacs’ Captain Gabriel Lorca.
@48, @51 “The team on the Glenn had, but hadn’t shared their breakthrough.”
That’s not how science works, at least not with a close collaboration with shared funding and a shared goal. If they had the space bug long enough to fabricate a harness for it, they had it long enough for Stamets’ collaborator to send him an email, “Ohmigod Paul we found a giant bug that talks to the spores and might have evolved a way to use them to travel. We’re going to try and connect it to the computer.”*
RL science has cutthroat competition, friendly competition, informal collaborations, and close collaborations on critical work. Not sharing critical developments cross-ship is not something I would tolerate in the latter classes of research.
If I was working on a multi-site scientific project (which I am, IRL) and my co-investigator potentially found the solution to our major problem, and didn’t communicate it to me, and then died before backing up their notes to the shared cloud site, I’d be mightily pissed off. And so would the funding sponsors.
The explanation may work in-universe for the majority of viewers, but not for me.
(*For which see this)
@@@@@ 71 StrongDreams, I am in full agreement with you here. As a former evolutionary biologist, I also have to raise my eyebrows a bit regarding the homicidal tardigrade featured in Episode IV. If it is approximately the size of the horta from “Devil in the Dark”, based on the known laws of physics and biology, it wouldn’t make sense as a creature, and I should note that both the cast and crew acknowledged during the Paleyfest panel that real tardigrades are very, very small.
@62,
“(And if you thought that torturing the tardigrade was more wrong than letting people die, do you eat meat?)”
Straw man.
Raising animals for human consumption, when done according to accepted agricultural practices, does not involve “torture”, and certainly not of sentient beings.
A better argument would be using horses for transportation. How would you feel about putting a space bug in the engine room if the space bug is definitely non-sentient and the procedure can be done in such a way that it is not painful or harmful to the bug.
@63 – Chris, I am with you that S31 shouldn’t be a part of this; but Stamets clearly says Lorca split his partner and him into two ships to work twice as fast. It doesn’t sound as if Stamets was doing his research on Discovery during peacetime, and then in wartime Lorca took over. Rather, that Stamets and his partner were working on this somewhere else, and they built the Crossfield-class ships when the war broke out, and stuck them on the ships. Of course, what you say could be true about the Discovery, and when war started they quickly built the Glenn (or fast-tracked its construction) to split up the two main researchers.
The Klingon speak too haltingly, that is the problem many have. I have it, to a certain degree, but it doesn’t really bother me.
@74/MaGnUs: There’s no way a whole starship on this scale could be designed and built in just six months. Per the TNG Technical Manual, the design and construction process of the Galaxy class took more than 20 years. This ship couldn’t have taken that long, given Stamets’s age, and it’s not nearly on the same scale as a Galaxy. But it probably took several years, given that it’s based on a prototype technology.
Also, Stamets said the ship was built around his research, and he clearly did not expect to be doing military work. He reacts to the wartime efforts as an unwanted imposition. Moreover, as we saw in the battle drills, the Discovery‘s bridge crew aren’t hardened soldiers. They aren’t comfortable with this stuff either. So it stands to reason that the ship was both built and staffed before the war broke out.
Like I said, it’s possible both of them were working on the same ship, and the Glen was still being built; then Lorca took over and split them up.
This episode begins to show the potential of the series but man, does the “science” ever take a pounding. Sure they say that the space tardigrade shares some attributes with the ones we have here but then they make it look exactly the same only millions of times bigger. And that’s not even taking the magical space mushrooms into account. It’s like TPTB read some oddball pseudo science on the web and decided to mash a bunch of things together.
Strangely, the problems with the science helped me enjoy the Klingon bits more. I assume that the use of Klingonaase will improve as the actors get more comfortable with it. For a look at how the language is done on the show, check out this article.
Executive producer Alex Kurtzman, star Kenneth Mitchell, and “the best Klingon speaker in Canada” reveal the level of detail that went into every moment the warrior race was on screen.
The background of the fueds between the various Klingon houses and the interaction between them is a lot more interesting to me than the TNG/DS9 Space Biker Klingons we’ve seen. It’s not just a bunch of people talking about honour, headbutting each other and getting into drunken brawls. You get the feeling that there’s an actual culture here.
I wish I could feel sorry for Landry but she was a victim of the “We need to make the main character look smart so we’ll make someone else do something incredibly stupid that gets them killed” trope. Honestly, how did someone so reckless not only make it to chief of security but survive to make it to that position? I’m assuming that when we meet Ash Tyler he’ll be her replacement. Hate the idea that they kill off two female characters, both people of colour and replace them with male characters who presumably will live longer. We shall see.
Another thing that’s giving me pause is that with the Glenn now gone, Discovery is the only ship with the spore drive. And where does Starfleet put it? Out on the frontier. Alone. It’s now the only ship with spore drive and one of the inventors of it. It makes no sense to have it so exposed. All it would take is one battle like was shown in the simulation and the entire spore drive project would be back to square one. It would be like establishing Regula One in a border area. Sure, Kruge found out about it but he was one small, cloaked ship. Seeing as the Enterprise was fairly close to the station while it was on a training cruise, it’s safe to assume that the station was relatively close to Earth.
A nice bit with the last will but why have the stupid box keep pinging at you? Is there a time limit to claiming a message and a telescope that’s already in the container? Yes, I know it was to keep reminding Burnham that it was there but having it in her quarters and Burnham’s gaze always falling on it would accomplish the same thing. And if I were Tilly, I’d be ticked off that my roommate had this stupid pinging box keeping me up all night.
When I first heard that fungus was going to play a part in the series I was reminded of the Vanguard novel series. Frankly, they handled it much better there than magic glowing blue spores and a giant space tardigrade. There, there was simply information encoded into the DNA of the fungus. Here, it’s biological technobabble that ranks right up there with the worst that TNG gave us.
I find I’m less and less fond with the series the more I watch. Still find the spore-drive ridiculous, and the “oh this is probably why they don’t use it in future series, because it requires torturing a sentient being to work” doesn’t work for me because even if instant precise travel to specific places would be incredibly useful… it’s still pretty incredibly useful to do it for short not-all-that-precise hops which they can apparently do WITHOUT the creature, so rudimentary spore drive without a tardigrade should still logically be standard-issue on Fed ships (I mean, imagine if they were in the middle of a losing battle and just needed to get AWAY). Also, did they just find the creature on some planet and think “hey, let’s hook it up to this machine we’ll need to custom build and see if it improves our distance?” I feel like the writers didn’t even consider a backstory to it, they just jumped straight to “the ship needs to torture it to travel anywhere specific” because that struck them as a cool moral issue to explore, just like they jumped to “the first officer’s going to be too aggressive with it and get killed” when the moment that scene played 90% of the viewers were thinking something along the lines “oh, that’s dumb, don’t you want to at least CHECK that the sedative took effect before you let it out of the cage?”
Similarly, I find it hard to buy that the Klingon ship has just been drifting out there for months, and so has the Shenzou. Like, it doesn’t ring at all true to me. If Klingons now control that area of space such that the Federation can’t even get close enough to scuttle their ships, then why NOT rescue their ship IMMEDIATELY even if only to get the cloak?
The convenient timeline to rescue the colony didn’t feel natural to me either. “Oh, there are no other federation ships closer than 84 hours away, and the shields will fail in precisely six hours because apparently the Klingons will attack at a leisurely and predictable rates.
@78/ghostly1: “Also, did they just find the creature on some planet and think “hey, let’s hook it up to this machine we’ll need to custom build and see if it improves our distance?””
See comment #48. As Burnham explained, the tardigrade somehow found its own way aboard the Glenn, seeking the spores.
“I feel like the writers didn’t even consider a backstory to it,”
Just because they haven’t revealed everything to the audience yet, that doesn’t mean they haven’t figured it out themselves. This is serialized TV, after all. Things don’t always get set up and paid off in the same episode.
@79: Great, so now they have to explain why a teleporting creature doesn’t teleport AWAY when it’s restrained or tortured. Or why nobody thought that might be a vital thing to tell the other ship.
Sure, there may BE explanations for it, but I don’t get the impression they care enough to think about them beyond the most surface level.
“Just because they haven’t revealed everything to the audience yet, that doesn’t mean they haven’t figured it out themselves. This is serialized TV, after all. Things don’t always get set up and paid off in the same episode.”
And often they don’t get paid off at all (see, LOST). We, as viewers, can’t know in advance. But if they’re going to present them to us individual episode by individual episode, I’m going to react to them on that basis, and I don’t yet feel that they’ve thought of it, it doesn’t show through in anything they’ve done so far. I mean, maybe they secretly have a master plan that will reveal that the Tactical Officer deliberately faked her death in the most stupid way to go on a secret mission undercover on an Orion Vessel, or have some other reason why she didn’t really make the most stupid decision available that we all saw her make. But if they haven’t shown evidence for it, I’m going to assume ‘bad writing’ until proven otherwise. Likewise with the spores.
I’m reacting to what they present, and so far, on SO MANY LEVELS of the show, they’ve presented me an attitude of “I don’t really care how much sense it makes or how organic it is to the plot, as long as I think it makes for a kewl moment.” Why should I assume that this is an exception?
One aspect I find myself struggling with Discovery is the sense of place and time, or lack thereof. For instance, has there been any log entry narration yet? I can’t recall hearing any. Even in serialized storytelling narrative shortcuts like that are welcome. Might clear up a lot of questions along the way.
And maps! Star Trek, and a lot of stories dealing with war and exploration for that matter, are typically big on maps. You can’t have too many maps. :-D
I wanted to ask what others thought about Voq (Vok?) having to (potentially) “sacrifice everything” for help from “The Matriarchs?”
Presumably, these are a cabal (or even a specific House) led by (or exclusively made up of) Klingon women.
I doubt they are going to go the Profit & Lace route of making Voq into a woman (or even the Bosom Buddies route of playing the part of one).
Might we be heading toward his becoming a eunuch? Historically, these are men castrated and put into the employ of powerful women.
It is probably something altogether different, but that is what jumped into my mind.
@81/GoKartMozart: The first episode opened with “First officer’s log, stardate 1207.3. On Earth, it’s May 11, 2256, a Sunday.” The third episode opened with a “Six Months Later” caption, and the Klingons in this episode also mentioned that six months had passed since the initial battle.
There’s a prominent map of the combat zone in Lorca’s ready room, and I gather that it’s updated from episode to episode.
83 — Right, I’d forgotten about those. Still needs more, I think, front and center with the narrative, Band of Brothers style.
@73/StrongDreams: “Raising animals for human consumption, when done according to accepted agricultural practices, does not involve “torture”, and certainly not of sentient beings.”
The “torture” part is questionable given the horrid conditions of factory farms. And you mean not of sapient beings. They’re definitely sentient beings, unless livestock can’t experience their environment.
Coming in to this conversation late: partly because CraveTV here in Canada airs the episodes later than they’re aired in the US, and partly because I’d been processing just how wrong I was in my impressions from last week.
In my defense, my exposure to true serialized TV has been infrequent and not good. The new BattleStar Galactica was a long slog that lost me by the end of the second season (I understand it didn’t get better afterward). Flashforward and Terra Nova were uneven and cut short before their problems could be solved. Voltron Legendary Defender felt insulting; I didn’t last past episode 7. So when I saw “Context is for Kings” I projected my negative experiences on the episode and the series as a whole. That was my mistake.
My questions over why Burnham was on Discovery, my concerns over the theme of the show, were all addressed here. Things can still go wrong, but I feel I owe the writers and the cast – and my fellow commenters here – an apology. I’ll try to approach future episodes with a more open mind.
@80/Ghostly1 Re: why Ripper doesn’t teleport away from the ship. I wonder if Ripper can teleport itself at will or if it needs certain external conditions before it can – consuming a certain quantity of spores in one sitting, for instance, or perhaps teleporting during certain points in its lifecycle, as with salmon, as Christopher mentioned.
In fact, I’m wondering if perhaps Ripper caused the Glenn to crash. It’d been co-opted as the ship’s navigator at least once before. Whether it was sapient or not, perhaps it clued in that the pain and discomfort was coming from the jumps, and the next chance it got, it did something to the jump causing the ship to crash. Much like someone being held prisoner in a moving car might try to grab the wheel and drive the car into nearby try or gully in hopes of escape.
Holy crap, someone in the writers room remembered this is Star Trek.
The “monster” not being a monster at all? Trek at it’s best, showing that because something is frightening to us in appearance doesn’t mean we should just shoot it and kill it, but study it, try to learn about it, maybe communicate with it. Starfleet is all about, you know, seeking out new life and everything, so it makes Landry and her death all the more stupid. For fuck’s sake, Landry was a commander in Starfleet, and her default was to shoot the creature and hack it to pieces? She was an idiot who died an idiot’s death. (I was hoping Landry could grow as a more dimensional character so Rekha Sharma could be around a while longer, but her character was indeed an obnoxious idiot who will not be missed.)
Stamets, on the other hand, was far less obnoxious in this episode. He may even become likeable at some point. Nah, probably not. But we see glimpses of the character he may become.
I’m glad Michael is finally out of her convict gear and back in uniform. It’s much easier to watch not having every person she passes in the corridors gawking at the woman of color in prison attire. And we get to see Michael the scientist, how she probably was aboard the Shenzhou early in her time there.
Okay, I’m sold on Lorca. While his methods remain…questionable, his desire to save lives and end the war are in the best Starfleet tradition.
And we see Phillipa Georgiou one more time. Any chance to see Michelle Yeoh, I’m all for it.
A really good episode, showing promise that Discovery can connect to the best traditional of Star Trek.
@86/Andrew: I’m not convinced the tardigrade can teleport under its own power; maybe it was “scooped up” by the Glenn on one of its jumps. We just don’t know enough yet to be certain.
One of the reasons I’m sold on this show is because they seem to be playing with people’s expectations. Like Andrew Crisp (comment 86) said, they’re answering the questions that the individual episodes pose. People keep having knee jerk reactions to things that go on in the series, only to have the question answered in a week or two. While we should definitely be judging this show on a weekly basis, maybe we need to not freak out over plot points that have yet to be addressed, as the showrunners have shown that they know what they’re doing.
80. ghostly1, Just out of curiosity, do you turn off movies a 1/4 of the way through if you can’t see every plot beat coming?
Jason, a movie requires much less investment of time.
Personally I AM a huge fan of spoilers, I like having some idea of what’s going to happen. I don’t deal well with suspense the fourth season of Babylon 5 nearly killed me.
@86 The tardigrade is a good example of the writers playing games with the weekly release schedule. They have it show up one week, kicking off a fair amount of speculation on if they intended Ripper to be a giant tardigrade or not before off-handedly confirming in the next episode that yes, it is a giant tardigrade.
“playing with people’s expectations”
Also known as disrespecting the audience, trolling, and just being a general dick. Keep that crap for your gaming group, film-makers, put on a competent tv show that doesn’t feel the need to trick the audience to try and feel clever. If you need twists and tricks to make the show work then it isn’t a very good show on its own merits in the first place.
princessroxana I agree that a movie is much less of a time commitment, but serialized TV is basically a 15 hour movie. It seems unfair to try and hold a show like this to the old standard of episodic television. Hating it because it’s serialized makes perfect sense. I may not agree with it, but it is a legitimate opinion. Hating it because it doesn’t wrap up the plot every week knowing its serialized just doesn’t make sense.
92. random22 We’ll have to agree to disagree with this. I don’t want a show where I can predict what everyone is going to do all the time, or where an episode can introduce something in one episode and before the credits run, we know exactly what the plot point for that thing is. You think its disrespecting the audience, I think its avoiding spoon feeding the audience a cookie cutter plot.
@89: Ridiculous comparison, for a number of reasons. First, movies aren’t presented in 1/4 installments with weeks to think about them in between. Second, I’m not ‘turning off’ this show, I’m just having negative impressions of it so far with what they give me. It’s not even about not seeing plot beats coming, it’s about them having signaled again and again that they’re willing to sacrifice coherent logical storytelling (which does include, but is by no means limited to, continuity with previous shows- if you claim you’re in continuity I’ll judge you by the standard of whether your alterations make it better or worse… so far, mostly worse) for perceived ‘coolness’ or let some initial idea for how the story will go run away with them even if it doesn’t make much sense. I don’t see your claimed repeated “knee jerk reactions only to find things answered in a week or two”, except in the most mild sense that you expect from any serialized storytelling with invested fans trying to guess where it might go. If they didn’t want that, they should have released it as a movie. So yes, ‘what’s with the monster’ was ‘explained’ rendering some ‘knee-jerk’ guesses wrong, but that didn’t really satisfy. Mostly, I see things answered with things that don’t really make more sense than the initial question and a lot of things that really have no good answer that are just getting glossed over because it’s not important to the writers.
But to answer your question, if a movie insulted my intelligence in the first 1/4 of a movie, it certainly wouldn’t be an inspiring start… MAYBE they have a way to turn it around, and usually unless it’s really really bad I’ll watch it with a bit of an eyeroll and see if they do (hint: they rarely, rarely do… long-form series actually have the advantage in that sometimes they can see their mistakes and make corrections, something criticism of the early bits actually, or at least potentially, helps, rather than just “oh I’ll just wait and see and assume they know what they’re doing”). But I’m not going to watch it with wide-eyed idealistic belief that it’s going to be awesome despite how it started.
Jason, I agree, that’s why I don’t watch serial tv. Too annoying.
95. ghostly1 Then we’re at an impasse. I’m watching this believing that it’s going to be awesome because of how it started, not despite it. I think that serialized storytelling needs a lot more leeway to tell its story and reveal its plot points. When you’re a 1/4 of the way through a 15 hour story, you shouldn’t have all of your questions answered. If you just don’t like what they’re doing with the story, again, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
96. princessroxana, fair enough :)
@96 Agreed. Serialised television is annoying, it is all the flaws of a movie melded with all the flaws of hourly tv segments. Apart from anything else I am far too time poor to invest in a 15 hour movie, no matter the format. Especially a fifteen hour movie that spends most of the time padding every scene to reach the fifteen hour mark and will still be meddled with during that fifteen hours, making it all muddled anyway.
@@@@@ 90 princessroxana, we’re going to disagree respectfully about Season 4 of “Babylon 5” here. I have to commend “Babylon 5” series creator J. Michael Straczynski for offering truly compelling characters and plotlines, as well as having the unique distinction of writing all of the episodes for Seasons 2 to 4. IMHO “Babylon 5” was the best I have seen with regards to serialized TV, though ample credit is due to “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine” writers for their serialized episodes regarding the 24th Century Klingon – Federation war, and especially, the Dominion War. I recently watched the early (Season 2) three-part episodes regarding “The Circle” featuring Frank Langella and Stephen Macht, and not only was I surprised that it still held up quite well after nearly a quarter of a century, but found them more compelling than “The Vulcan Hello”, which I regard as the best “Star Trek” pilot episode ever made. (Incidentally, the entire creative team I saw at the Paleyfest “Star Trek Discovery” panel over the weekend admitted that they are diehard “Trekkies”, though they noted that only Bryan Fuller – who wasn’t present – has an extensive knowledge of the canon.)
@@@@@ 99, Don’t get me wrong, I loved B5. But the intensity and suspense of season four was very hard for me to handle. I watched a lot of it cowering in the hallway off the living room or pacing frantically round the kitchen.
@@@@@ 100, I felt that way too. J. Michael Straczynski said he was writing a “novel for television” which each prior season building up towards what would happen in Season 4. Am glad he succeeded. I felt the suspense building up in those early “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine” episodes as well as the others I cited, and it remains to be seen if “Star Trek: Discovery” delivers too. Alas, as the former evolutionary biologist that I am, I’m not too crazy about Ripper; I would find the plotting more credible if it was a horta instead.
@100 Nice to meet another frantic pacer :)
Though I don’t do it as much now because I can fast forward through most of what I watch.
Regarding season 4 of B5, I read that he basically combined the end of the Shadow War and the retaking of Earth into one season because he didn’t think he was getting a 5th season. If true, that may be why that season was so intense. It had two seasons worth of drama.
@@@@@ 103, that’s right, Jason. It’s exactly what he did. It’s to the everlasting credit of the “DS: 9” writers that they followed a similar path with the “Federation – Klingon war” and “Dominion war” episodes, even if their intensity fell short of B5’s.
@98/random22: It’s a trivial point, I know, but technically Discovery is more like a 12-hour movie at most, assuming the 48-minute length of the past couple of episodes is typical (although the first two were only 40 minutes each).
@99/John Kwok: Straczynski didn’t become the sole writer on B5 until season 3. He wrote 12 out of 22 episodes in season 1 and 15 out of 22 in season 2. He wrote all of seasons 3-4, and all of season 5 except for one episode by Neil Gaiman and two that JMS co-plotted with Harlan Ellison.
“(Incidentally, the entire creative team I saw at the Paleyfest “Star Trek Discovery” panel over the weekend admitted that they are diehard “Trekkies”, though they noted that only Bryan Fuller – who wasn’t present – has an extensive knowledge of the canon.)”
Well, then, they were failing to mention Kirsten Beyer, whose extensive knowledge of Trek canon has been invaluable to the staff. And I seem to recall someone saying in an interview that Akiva Goldsman provided a lot of Trek-continuity expertise as well.
@103, 104: That’s a lot of wars.
@@@@@ 105 ChristopherLBennett, Goldman was there, and so too were Alex Kurtzman, Gretchen J. Berg, Aaron Harberts, and Heather Kadin, and they all acknowledged Bryan Fuller as the one who has the greatest knowledge of the canon. The most Goldman spoke about regarding his own expertise, is noting how he had attended the second “Star Trek” convention in New York City back in 1976 and had met David Gerrold. (BTW, I remember that one for meeting Gerrold and Isaac Asimov for the first time too as a teenager, approximately the same age as Goldman.) There was much discussion about the tardigrade in Episode IV, and they admitted that tardigrades are, in real life, microscopic creatures. (I think there are some potentially serious issues with regards to allometry and physics which they ignored that is making me, as a former evolutionary biologist, raising my own Yellow Alert as to whether or not I should get CBS All Access. I think I might just be better off waiting for the DVDs.)
As for J. Michael Straczynski, it is still impressive that he had written consecutively by himself, most of Season 2 and all of Seasons 3 and 4; an accomplishment that I think will never be surpassed, especially given the overall excellence of those episodes.
@86 – Andrew: That’s great! Glad you’re liking the show more.
@87 – Dante: They always knew it was Star Trek, but this is an episodic show, so the previous episodes were setting up this.
@@@@@ 105 ChristopherLBennett, I might also add that it is worth noting that the actor who portrays Lieutenant Paul Stamets, Anthony Rapp, was waxing enthusiastically about the real-life mycologist Paul Stamets, whom I hadn’t heard of before I attended that Paleyfest panel. While it seems that Stamets has made some notable contributions to mycology, I wouldn’t rank him as highly as noted biologists Dr. E. O. Wilson, Dr. Sean B. Carroll, or Dr. Eric Lander, who have.
@107/John Kwok: Star Trek is a universe with humanoid aliens, frequent interspecies procreation, and a tendency for intelligent species to evolve into incorporeal energy beings. So realistic evolutionary biology has never been on the table.
And, again, JMS was sole writer on seasons 3-5 of B5, not 2-4. He wrote all but one episode of season 5, so I don’t know why you aren’t counting it. On seasons 1-2, Straczynski was working with his old He-Man/She-Ra colleague Lawrence G. DiTillio as story editor, while on seasons 3-5, Straczynski worked without a story editor (or as his own story editor, effectively).
And personally I wish he had collaborated more on those seasons. After a while, it reached the point where every single character talked exactly like JMS, which got tiresome. It was so incredibly refreshing when Neil Gaiman’s “Day of the Dead” aired and we finally got to hear a different style of dialogue for the first time in over two years. And I think the quality declined over time as well, as if he was overreaching himself. I think there’s only so much a person can handle before they begin to burn out, so working with collaborators isn’t a bad idea. Even if he plotted every episode, he would’ve benefitted from collaborators on the scripts, just to bring some variety to the dialogue style.
@@@@@ 110, much to their credit, the science advisors for “Star Trek: The Next Generation”, “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine”, “Star Trek: Voyager”, and even “Star Trek: Enterprise” tried to make credible extrapolations of the science discussed in individual episodes. I think that remains in doubt with “Star Trek: Discovery”, especially when they tout the real-life Paul Stamets as one of our greatest scientists. Definitely not in comparison with Dr. E. O. Wilson (“father of the science of conservation biology”), Dr. Sean B. Carroll (a noted evolutionary developmental biologist) and Dr. Eric Lander (who led one of the two teams that sequenced the human genome). I’m not expecting “Star Trek: Discovery” to offer credible explanations in evolutionary biology, but “Star Trek” has often touted itself as a SF series that tries to be consistent with science, unlike, for example, “Doctor Who” or “Babylon 5”, which I am huge fans of too.
@110, I think you’ve missed my points that JMS conceived of “Babylon 5” as a “novel for television” and that he wrote consecutively, the rest of Season 2, and all of Seasons 3 and 4. He had his own, unique, vision for B5, and regardless of whether or not the quality of the writing and storytelling might have been better had others been involved, there is certainly no doubt that he did accomplish that aim.
@112/John: Yes, yes, I know, but you keep making the mistake of leaving out season 5, which he also wrote all of except for “Day of the Dead.” JMS wrote 61% of season 1-2 and 98.5% of seasons 3-5. So your insistence on counting it as seasons 2-4 is off by one season. It was seasons 3-5 that he wrote (nearly) all of.
And I’m perfectly well aware of Trek’s efforts at scientific plausibility. It’s part of the reason I’m a fan in the first place, and I strive to live up to that standard in my own Trek fiction. But I’m also aware that a lot of Trek falls short of that standard, whether due to certain writers’ and producers’ lack of concern for science or due to necessary logistical, dramatic, and budgetary concessions. A giant tardigrade is no more biologically implausible than a human-Vulcan hybrid or a shapeshifter or a telekinetic or an energy being or any of a hundred other things we’ve seen in past Trek.
And yet they could have avoided a lot of the problem by simply not making it a giant tardigrade. Make it some sort of spore space based lifeform or some other such brand new thing and nobody could say that it’s ridiculous since it isn’t based on a real thing. But now, somebody read a story about tardigrades and thought “That’s kewl” and voila!
It’s funny how some people say that the tech in the show must be upgraded past what TOS had to keep it believable and yet something like this is perfectly OK. Enterprise, for all it’s faults, at least tried to look like it was a prequel, using shuttlepods instead of the new transporter for example. Here we’ve got people doing routine site to site transporters like it was an everyday occurrence.
BTW, one of the places that Lorca sent Burnham to with the spore transporter and said that it was a place that thy had been before was Romulus. So they know what Romulans look like and could guess that there might be a link with the Vulcans. And yet Spock is still surprised by their appearance.
This may be a prequel to A version of TOS but it’s not the same TOS as aired in the ’60s.
I don’t get the problem with the giant tardigrade. Sure, I know all about the square-cube law and such, but just because the creature has a similar outward appearance to a tardigrade and a similar durability, that doesn’t mean its internal systems and structures can’t be quite different and better-suited for a macrocscopic organism. Superficial resemblance doesn’t prove exact equivalence.
But it’s appearance isn’t superficial, it’s exactly the same. Burnham even comments on it. It’s as absurd as the giant spacegoing, planet eating, energy absorbing amoeba. You’d think that they’d put as much effort into upgrading the science as they do to the uniform, sets, and tech. At least the improved science would add something of substance to the show as opposed to being mere window dressing. Why upgrade one and let something as absurd as a giant tardigrade slip past you. At least with the horta they came up with something unusual. (Even if they got it from The Outer Limits).
Your argument is like arguing that the giants ants of THEM! are scientifically plausible because we don’t know their internal structure.
Amoeba…a giant amoeba about to reproduce with a certain science officer aboard a shuttle craft in the middle of it. So a “microscopic” creature is simply not believable when blown up out of proportion like for instance a tardigrade? It may be absurd but this is SyFi people and definitely Star Trek.
Yes, it’s SciFi not Science Fiction. It’s science is on par with Lost in Space more than reality. But Trek has always had dodgy science and yet people hold it up like some sort of Nova documentary.
I find it incredible that people are more bothered by an oversized tardigrade than they are by a space drive based on magic mushrooms.
unread comments
113. ChristopherLBennett, I haven’t forgotten about Season 5, but I’ve focused on Seasons 2 through 4, since they deal with the Shadow War and B5’s independence from Earth Alliance.
As for “Star Trek: Discovery”, its interest in science remains to be seen, especially in the real Paul Stamets is its key science advisor.
119. ChristopherLBennett – As I said yesterday…
“77. kkozoriz “This episode begins to show the potential of the series but man, does the “science” ever take a pounding. Sure they say that the space tardigrade shares some attributes with the ones we have here but then they make it look exactly the same only millions of times bigger. And that’s not even taking the magical space mushrooms into account. It’s like TPTB read some oddball pseudo science on the web and decided to mash a bunch of things together.””
@@@@@ 115. ChristopherLBennett , the problem with a large tardigrade has to do with allometry. Having one the size of Ripper is analogous to having a human the size of a Galaxy-class Federation starship. And you have to thank Stamets – the real one, not Rapps’ Lieutenant Stamets – for being the likely inspiration.
@@@@@ kkozoriz, it’s odd how the ST:D creative team have said repeatedly that they respect the canon, yet produce a whopper like the magic mushroom star drive. At least Brannon Braga and Seth McFarlane seem more respectful to their audience with “The Orville”; I haven’t seen anything as remotely absurd as the mushroom star drive, judging from “The Orville” episodes I have seen.
On the subject of Discovery’s saucer spinning, does anyone remember the starship Enterprise pizza slicer from several years ago? So that’s canon now, right? Hey, pizza with mushrooms.
:-D
@120/John Kwok: “I haven’t forgotten about Season 5, but I’ve focused on Seasons 2 through 4, since they deal with the Shadow War and B5’s independence from Earth Alliance.”
Yeah, but that’s about the storyline. If your intent is to praise the achievement of J. Michael Straczynski writing so many consecutive episodes all by himself, then season 5 counts as part of that achievement, a lot more than season 2 does.
As for the tardigrade, I already addressed that. I don’t need the square-cube law explained to me; I read Isaac Asimov’s essays on the subject decades ago. As I said, there’s no need to assume that the creature’s internal anatomy is identical to a tardigrade’s — I mean, it’s an alien, for Pete’s sake. Alien means different. You’re taking the analogy far too literally.
As for “respecting the canon,” that means adding to it, not just making an elaborate fan film like The Orville. There’s no point in doing a new Trek series if you don’t reveal new things about the universe. Creativity is not just homage and giving people what they expect. It’s trying new things and taking the audience new places.
Burnham points out the similarity to a tardigrade and then we see that it looks exactly like one. A minnow doesn’t look the same as a whale and their internal arrangements differ as well. Why would an alien creature (being?) look just like a microscopic Earth organism? Sure it could have similar properties like radiation resistance and such but it’s not going to look identical to a microscopic creature from a different environment.
It’s lazy design, plain and simple.
@@@@@ 125 – As much as I admire Asmiov – and appreciate his writings condemning creationism – he wasn’t an evolutionary biologist. I would recommend reading Stephen Jay Gould instead. As for JMS, we’ll have to agree respectfully to disagree.
@@@@@ 126 – You’ve hit the nail on the head. I thought I’d never would write this, but I’ve seen more intelligent writing from those writing for “The Orville”, of which a notable example is its Episode IV, about a lost multi-generational starship.
Creativity is not just homage and giving people what they expect. It’s trying new things and taking the audience new places.
When might we see that? Because so far I’m seeing a lot of familiar Star Trek with Discovery. Too familiar really. Unless by “new” you meant the tone. Definitely darker. Content wise though, there’s all the old stuff here: logical to a fault Vulcans, stupid to a fault Klingons, obsessed captain, odd but charming alien first officer, edgy engineer/scientist, prisoner in need of redemption, eager young space cadet, mistreating weird animal for power…. It’s Star Trek alright, to a fault.
@127/John Kwok: Huh? Make up your mind. You’re the one who brought up allometry (i.e. isometric scaling and the square-cube law) as the basis of your objection, and I was referring to Asimov’s discussions of that very subject. Asimov would’ve agreed with you. Obviously it doesn’t make sense to scale up a creature’s external and internal anatomy, and I’m saying I understand that. What I’m trying to do is offer a way around that problem by pointing out that its internal anatomy may be different. We’re not talking about a literal tardigrade that was enlarged by Pym particles or something — we’re talking about an alien life form that happens to resemble a tardigrade. So that resemblance could be superficial. Its internal anatomy could be quite different, in ways better suited for an organism of that size.
My motto has always been, “Don’t complain, explain.” If something in a story doesn’t make scientific or logical sense, it’s a waste of time and energy to just gripe about it — it’s more constructive to take it as a challenge to your creativity and try to imagine a way to make it make sense. It doesn’t do any good to talk about a problem if you can’t offer a possible solution. And that approach has worked pretty well for me, since I’ve been a professional science fiction author for nearly two decades now.
But it doesn’t resemble a tardigrade. It looks identical to one. This would require explaining Stanley Adams as a giant carrot on Lost in Space because he was playing a planet based alien.
Explain that and I’ll concede you have a point about the tardigrade. It’s basically the same thing. Taking an Earth organism and turning it into something that’s supposed to be alien. But they’re still just a giant tardigrade and a big carrot.
Or calling this an amoeba, when a real amoeba can’t fly through space at FTL speeds or create zones of darkness or kill shipload of Vulcans or broadcast extreme radio energy.
@130/kkozoriz: Ooh. I had no idea what a “tardigrade” is until you posted that image. The German word is “Bärtierchen”, which literally translates as “little bear animal”, because they look and move a little bit like bears. So now there’s an alien animal that’s like a microscopic Earth animal that’s like a macroscopic Earth animal.
If it didn’t try to be Star Trek, I might like this show for its surreal overtones.
@131/Jana: The vernacular English name for tardigrades is “water bears.”
@67/CLB: “I don’t understand your issue with the Klingon speech. Does it matter if the spoken words are comprehensible? We have subtitles.”
I want to understand them. I like listening to the spoken language, regardless of what language it is or whether or not I understand it. I do this with human languages too. Does that clarify why I wish they could be understood without the artifical overtones?
@73/StrongDreams: “Raising animals for human consumption, when done according to accepted agricultural practices, does not involve “torture”, and certainly not of sentient beings.”
As a vegetarian, I find your argument both incorrect and revolting. As Idran notes (@85), “accepted agricultural practices” are, in fact, torturous.
@126/kkozoriz: “Why would an alien creature (being?) look just like a microscopic Earth organism?”
Because tardigrades are cool. There, I said it. They made it a giant tardigrade because water bears rock. Can we move on now?
@114 – kkozoriz: It doesn’t look like they can exactly control completely how and where they visit through the chamber; or they’d be using it to attack Klingon targets with commando raids or the like. And while they might have visited Romulus, it doesn’t mean they saw any Romulan up close, or even if they did, that they’d share that information with any Starfleet officer. Spock not knowing what they look like still works.
@127 – John: That Orville episode is basically “For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky”, it wasn’t bad, but it’s still Star Trek fanfic.
@133 re: Klingons and poor diction.
It also just looks unprofessional and amateurish when the prosthesis hinders the actor’s speech. It is noticeable that they are not well fitted and more akin to a set of Halloween novelty teeth than something supposedly for a professional franchise. Even TNG worked that one out early in Season 1. There is simply no excuse for the STD to be making the same mistakes that a thirty year old instalment of the franchise (not to mention numerous fanfilms) already solved. It just speaks to the general ethos of nevermind if it works it might look cool slapdashery that permeates this car crash of a show.
“Why would an alien creature (being?) look just like a microscopic Earth organism?”
How is that any more implausible than an alien being looking exactly like a human, or like a human with pointed ears or forehead bumps?
For that matter, Trek has given us aliens that look like humanoid cats and pigs, and alien animals that look like dogs (“The Enemy Within”), horses (ST V), boars (the Klingon targ in TNG), goats and llamas (Insurrection), etc. Not to mention all the name-dropped animals that are just Earth animals with an alien name tacked on, like Tiberian bats, Denobulan lemurs, Zadarian dolphins, Rigellian oxen, etc. It’s always been part of Trek lore that alien evolution parallels Earthly evolution (and TNG: “The Chase” attempted to explain why).
@@@@@ 129. ChristopherLBennett, I’m referring to Stephen Jay Gould for a very good reason. He was the evolutionary biologist – in this case an invertebrate paleontologist, and in the interest of full disclosure, I have a background in that – who revitalized interest in allometry amongst his fellow evolutionary biologists over sixty years ago. Moreover, there’s something that should be said about biomechanics too. Could the internal organs of a tardigrade the size of Ripper, function well enough to keep it alive? If the writers were truly creative, they’d conceive of an entirely different creature, like, for example, the horta from “The Devil in the Dark”. IMHO this is a major instance – though not the only one – of sloppy thinking from the “Star Trek: Discovery” creative team that I haven’t seen yet from those responsible for “The Orville”
@@@@@ 134. MaGnUs, the only similarities between that “The Orville” episode and “For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky” are that they are set on lost multigenerational starships with fanatical religious leaders who’ve forgotten that they exist aboard these ships. Superficially they are identical, but there’s more to “The Orville” episode’s DNA that is more consistent with Harlan Ellison’s “The Starlost”. Claiming that it is mere “Star Trek fanfic” is almost like saying that “Babylon 5” copied “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine”, when, in reality, it was “Star Trek” that had borrowed from “Babylon 5”.
@133 MeredithP, I find tardigrades boring, and you’re hearing this from a former invertebrate paleontologist. Far more intriguing might have been a trilobite, and there were trilobites much larger than Ripper which swam in Earth’s oceans hundreds of millions of years ago.
@132/Christopher: Cool.
@134/MaGnUs: In “Balance of Terror”, it was clearly the intention to make the Romulans a people the Federation knows very little about. Visiting Romulus ruins that. Not to mention the fact that it’s a violation of the Neutral Zone, and thus an act of war. You’d think even Lorca would shy away from casually starting yet another war. Burnham should be appalled at the treaty violation. It also means that Spock didn’t tell the truth when he said that “the treaty has been unbroken since that time”. If they really visited Romulus, that was some very bad writing.
@137/John Kwok: “Moreover, there’s something that should be said about biomechanics too. Could the internal organs of a tardigrade the size of Ripper, function well enough to keep it alive?”
This is my point that you keep missing. As I said, this is not an actual tardigrade that was somehow embiggened like the giant ants in Them! It’s an alien creature that resembles a tardigrade. So there’s no reason to assume it has the same kind of internal organs. Looks can be deceiving.
Trek has given us examples of species that look humanoid on the outside but have radically different biology on the inside. For instance, Takarans from TNG: “Suspicions” look like green-skinned humanoids but have no discrete organs, with “practically every system… equally distributed throughout the body.” One can imagine that baseline-humanoid shapeshifters like (presumably) the Chameloids or Allasomorphs must have radically alien internal biology, regardless of what they look like on the surface. Then there’s the humanoid species from VGR: “Innocence” that somehow aged backward, due to some kind of energy in their bodies losing cohesion and causing them to fade away. That’s utterly idiotic, but it shows there’s precedent in Trek for aliens being immensely different on the inside than they appear on the outside — and for aliens in Trek being far, far more ridiculous in conception than an oversized water bear.
@@@@@ 140 Christopher, so therefore “Ripper” obeys a different set of laws of physics and biology than does a terrestrial tardigrade? That’s not “Star Trek”, but “Doctor Who”, in which case, I’ll prefer watching episodes featuring Tom Baker and Lalla Ward, Matt Smith and Karen Gillan, and Peter Capaldi and Jenna Coleman, thank you.
Nor do you seem to account for why there are purple Klingons. Wonder under what conditions Qo’nos’ sun would yield such hominids. (I think @@@@@139 janajansen has raised some additional, and important, points about the sloppy thinking from the “Star Trek: Discovery” team that claims to “respect” canon.
136. ChristopherLBennett
“How is that any more implausible than an alien being looking exactly like a human, or like a human with pointed ears or forehead bumps?”
Because in those cases the alien was being played by a human being. The tardigade is being played by a bunch of computer code. There’s no reason that it has to look just like an enlarged version of a microscopic earth animal. And yet there it is. Trek gets to the point that they can routinely do alien designs that aren’t tied to the human form and they make one that’s exactly like something that already exists.
@141/John: You keep stubbornly treating this as if it were a literal tardigrade. That assumption makes no sense. It’s an alien. Logically, it just looks like a tardigrade. Calling it that is an analogy, a convenience. It has certain similarities to the Earthly equivalent, but as an alien life form, it also must have differences. What I’m saying is that, despite its outward resemblance to a microscopic creature, it’s logical to expect that its internal organs are more logical for a macroscopic being — lungs, heart, an endoskeletal structure of some sort, etc. Because that’s what physics demands of a macroscopic being. Whatever it looks like on the outside, that can’t dictate how it’s built on the inside.
As for “purple Klingons,” I have no idea what you’re talking about, unless it’s “The Vulcan Hello”‘s reuse of the purplish-pink Klingon blood color previously seen in The Undiscovered Country.
@@@@@ 142. kkozoriz, maybe you should be writing scripts for “Star Trek: Discovery”. I concur with you completely. Stephen Jay Gould was fond of saying that if we “replayed the tape” of Earth’s evolutionary biological history over the past half billion years – a unit of geological time known as the Phanerozoic Eon – that you wouldn’t necessarily evolve mammals that would eventually become us. So why would there have to be an alien creature that looks exactly like a tardigrade. As Spock, Tuvok, and T’Pol might say, “It’s not logical.”
@@@@@ 145 Christopher, why did “Ripper” have to look like a tardigrade. It could have been its Vulcan equivalent. I’ve seen far more imagination from the writers who wrote for “Star Trek: The Animated Series” than “Star Trek: Discovery”. Case in point, Kirk, Spock and McCoy are chased within a snow-covered forest by an alien dinosaur that looks like a Tyrannosaurus rex covered in feathers, and I am certain the writers weren’t aware of the hot-blooded dinosaur controversy that was about to emerge in paleontology.
As for the Klingons, they have to have the Klingon equivalent of melanin to determine their skin color. Under what conditions would the physical environment on Qo’nos yield purplish skin tones?
@145/John Kwok: “Christopher, why did “Ripper” have to look like a tardigrade.”
Why are you asking me? I’m not a writer for the show. But I’d speculate that it’s because they liked the idea of a creature that was weird-looking and virtually indestructible, and they thought, “What if there were an alien that was like that, but on a human scale so our characters could interact with it directly?”
The animated episode you describe does not exist. The only TAS episodes to feature Kirk, Spock, and McCoy being chased by alien creatures in a forested environment are “Once Upon a Planet” and “The Eye of the Beholder,” and in neither case is the forest snow-covered, nor does either involve a feathered therapod.
@@@@@ 147, Christopher, I would have been more impressed if they came up with something more closely resembling Anomalocaris than a tardigrade. And you’ve missed my point about “replaying the tape of evolution” that Gould was fond of saying. There’s no reason why there should be a creature like an alien tardigrade, period.
As for that “Star Trek: The Animated Series” episode, it does exist. I caught part of it on the Heroes and Icons TV network several Sundays ago.
Titles for the rest of season 1 just posted to Twitter. I guess we get to met Dr. Adams, Lethe and the neural neutralizer, maybe even meet Garth and go down the rabbit hole at some point.
Star Trek: Discovery Episodes 5-9 Titles
Episode 5: Choose Your Pain
Episode 6: Lethe
Episode 7: Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad
Episode 8: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
Episode 9: Into the Forest I Go
@147/John Kwok: I’ve been a fan of TAS for 44 years, I rewatched the whole series earlier this year when Keith reviewed it, and I have never seen any such scene. I even checked the TrekCore screencaps to make sure. There are no snow-covered forests and no feathered T. rexes anywhere in TAS. Whatever you saw, you’re misremembering.
“There’s no reason why there should be a creature like an alien tardigrade, period.”
There’s no reason why there should be an alien that looks exactly like a human either. Except that this is a work of fiction and not a dissertation on speculative xenoevolution. Trek has been giving us unrealistic aliens for 51 years. Science fiction in general has been doing so for far longer. We can’t know what real aliens will look like, so fiction generally tends to extrapolate from known Earthly forms — humanoid aliens, felinoid aliens, reptilian aliens, insectoid aliens, you name it.
149. ChristopherLBennett – As I said earlier, in those cases the shows were limited by the human form. You needed actors in the makeup and costumes. There’s no such limitation in this case because the creature is CGI. There’s no person in a tardigrade suit. It’s like Alien with a man in the humanoid suit so it looks humanoid. The facehugger has no such limitation so it can look unearthly.
It doesn’t just look like a tardigrade, the image on Burnhams monitor shows an actual tardigrade. Sure, a lot of people would be unfamiliar with them but they’ve been in the news for the past few years. A lot more people now know what they look like.
The alien dog from The Enemy Within looked less like a dog than Ripper looks like a tardigrade.
@148 Those titles are intriguing.
Especially Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum which is Latin and means “if you want peace, prepare for war.”
Very much like Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges from DS9, which means roughly “in times of war, the law is silent.”
Also, it looks like Lethe is Greek for “oblivion.”
Lethe was also the name of a character in Dagger of the Mind.
Lethe
@@@@@ 149 Christopher, I own several of the Filmation animation cels from “Star Trek: The Animated Series”. Yes, there is a scene where the feathered theropod does appear and Kirk, Spock and McCoy do run for their lives. (Like you, I’ve been a fan of ST: TAS since it first aired back in 1973. Speaking of bragging rights, I met most of the TOS cast at the original NYC Star Trek conventions back in the mid 1970s, met John de Lancie after a semi-staged concert performance of Mozart’s “The Abduction from the Seraglio” guest-conducted by Sir Colin Davis and performed by the New York Philharmonic at Avery Fisher – now Geffen – Hall nearly a decade ago, and as I told Jason Isaacs, I met Kate Mulgrew after a private memorial service for my favorite teacher from high school, the writer Frank McCourt, over eight years ago.)
@153/John Kwok: Name the episode, please. Just asserting it doesn’t make it true.
@@@@@ 154 Christopher, well I know it isn’t “Beyond the Farthest Star”, written by Samuel Peeples, who wrote the second TOS pilot, “Where No Man Has Gone Before”. But I know I’m not imagining that scene in ST: TAS, since I’ve seen it many times over the years. And it seems you are ignoring my other points pertaining to evolutionary biology as well as kkozoriz’s excellent observations, of which the latest (@@@@@ 150) are most apt.
@@@@@ krad I loved what u said about NEMESIS, always despiced that movie for just that reason.
@@@@@ChristopherLBennett really agree with your concerns about the design, and must add the crazy twist at the sporejump…. dangerous and crazy hmmm. BTW very good one that of the O type stars….
2 things I think the writers missed: 1 how you “ambush” a blockade force? 2 The stars wrong color as pointed before.
I agree with all of who feel this was a much more TREK episode.
And the next ep trailer shows clearly that the Tardigrade is not happy with being the driver of the engine.
@155/John Kwok: I’m not a TAS expert, but I couldn’t find the episode you describe either. I looked at “The Magicks of Megas-Tu”, “The Eye of the Beholder”, “The Jihad”, “Bem” and “How Sharper Than a Serpent’s Tooth?”. If you can locate it, please tell us.
Anyway, it isn’t really important to your main point, namely that TAS had very imaginative aliens. No question, that’s true. But it also had cat people, lizard people, eagle people, and dragons. And Discovery had the spidery people in “The Vulcan Hello”. I really liked those.
Speaking of lack of imagination, it has recently occurred to me that Discovery lacks imagination in a far more important department, namely when it comes to the kind of story it tells. It has bothered me right from the start that the first season is about a war, because I feel that between the last seasons of DS9 and the third season of ENT, there has already been too much war in the Star Trek universe, and that it’s being retconned more and more into a far less beautiful place than it used to be.
But I only realised after reading comments #103 and 104 how unimaginative this also is. B5 was about war. The long story arcs in DS9 and ENT were about war. So was Battlestar Galactica. Has there ever been a serialised SF story taking place in a future with spaceships and aliens about anything else but war? And now there’s this show. It takes place in a century where space exploration is a huge endeavor. It’s called Discovery. The main character is a xenoanthropologist. They could do all kinds of long, intricate stories about exploration and about alien civilisations – the kinds of stories we couldn’t have on TV so far, only in novels like e.g. “Uhura’s Song”, “Doctor’s Orders”, “Twilight’s End”, or “The Face of the Unknown”. If TOS had a main flaw, I’d say it was the fact that all problems could always be solved so easily. A season-long story about problems encountered on some alien planet could remedy that.
They could do anything. And they do a story about technological innovation, and war. Am I the only one who thinks this is sad?
I think it is sad that us humans can only find drama in war stories too. I think it is a mark of just how scarred the national psyches of the Western World is by war, confrontation, and desire for violence. It has got much worse post 9/11 with the 24-ing of society too.
I want us to have more imagination.
At least on The Orville the running stories are differences in LGBT attitudes within marriage and the Captain and XO learning to cope with their failed marriage. Even there though there is a bit of an alien-war thing in the background. And that is the best SF show on at the moment.
157. JanaJansen – They could do anything. And they do a story about technological innovation, and war. Am I the only one who thinks this is sad?
I fully agree Jana. Very well said. Sadly, the apologists will chime in with “But there will be episodes that have nothing to do with the war”, thus missing the point that war stores are the lazy way, for the most part, to tell Star Trek stories. DS9 did it because it hadn’t been done before, at least not on that scale. And ENT just had to follow suit because the whole series was lazy storytelling. The novels keep having these big, overblown crossovers that disrupt the ongoing storylines on the various individual series. For example, Titan was sold as a “Where no man has gone before” series and yet, like Worf in the movies, keeps getting pulled back home for the crossover the the TNG/DS9/VOY novels.
Bigger is not always better and a big war storyline is something that Trek should use very sparingly.
159. kkozorik
To be fair, the series 3 ENT war story was a specific response to 9/11, wasn’t it? And as such had a brave story arc as it involved not all the enemy being evil.
@137 – John Kwok: The two episodes we mentioned aside, The Orville IS Star Trek fanfic. They’re not trying to do a different show that just happens to have a spacefaring organization. They’re doing Star Trek with the names changed, with stickers pasted over the serial numbers. It’s okay to like it, like you can enjoy a cover band, but it’s nothing more than that.
@139 – Jana: Characters can say something they believe to be true, while it actually isn’t. That’s not breaking canon, it’s just that Spock never new that the treaty had been broken. He’s not omniscient, nor is he a highly-placed Starfleet officer at the time he says that.
@141 – John Kwok: Oh, so you know exactly what pigments exist in a Klingon’s skin and the exact radiation their sun gives out?
@151 – WTBA: Loved the titles as well, and I also thought of “Inter Arma…”
@157/Jana: I’m not crazy about another war story either, but the producers have assured us that the war is only this season’s arc. If there’s a second season, it’ll be about something else, hopefully the kind of serialized exploration story you want.
I’ve felt for a long time that what I’d like to see is an exploration show that devotes a whole season to each planet the starship explores. I mean, the idea that you can do a meaningful survey of an entire planet in less than a week is ridiculous. A whole planet would have hundreds of different cultures and environments and animal species, multiple nations and political or social factions, a wealth of different things to explore and internal conflicts to get caught up in. And it would help get away from the sci-fi cliche of depicting entire planets as monocultures and monoclimates.
“Has there ever been a serialised SF story taking place in a future with spaceships and aliens about anything else but war?”
Well, I’d say Stargate Universe qualifies, except that it was set in the present day (albeit a present where humanity has had access to advanced alien technology for a number of years). It did have some conflicts going on, but they weren’t the central spine of the narrative. Dark Matter‘s first season wasn’t about war, but the second was largely about trying to head off a war, and the third was largely driven by two different wars and ended with an alien invasion. (And they didn’t have aliens in the show until this season, so it doesn’t quite fit your parameters.) Similarly, Killjoys‘ first two seasons weren’t about a war (although they had an arc about a workers’ revolution), but the third season was war-driven, and there’s a bigger conflict building for season 4, although it’s unclear yet whether it will be a war or something more personal. (And the only aliens in the show are a microscopic hive mind and one species of large centipede-like creatures.)
@@@@@ 157 JanaJansen, I’m not a TAS expert either, but it may be either “Once Upon a Planet” or “Eye of the Beholder”. (BTW my favorite TAS episode is D. C. Fontana’s “Yesteryear”.) I tend to follow William Shatner’s dictum regarding “getting a life”, so I can’t remember every single detail about every ST episode. However, I concur with you that it’s ridiculous that “Star Trek: Discovery” starts off with a war, wasting both Burnham’s talents as a xenoanthropologist and Lorca’s as a presumably mad scientist and explorer.
@@@@@158 random22, glad there’s another vote out there for “The Orville” and I strongly second your appraisal. Even though it has too many jokes, the relationships between the main characters seem to be more credible than what I have seen (or heard) about those in “Star Trek: Discovery”. More importantly, I think the writing has been more intelligent, for which ample thanks is due to former “Star Trek” producer Brannon Braga, who is one of its executive producers.
@@@@@161 MaGnUs, I don’t think random22 (@@@@@ 158) regards “The Orville” as “Star Trek fanfic”. Trust me, I’ve forced myself to watch some of what is indeed “Star Trek fanfic” over on YouTube – too much, that I find myself wishing I was watching an Elton John or a New York Philharmonic or Cleveland Orchestra or Berlin Philharmonic or Vienna Philharmonic concert instead – and the writing, acting and production values of “The Orville” greatly surpass what other fans might regard as the “finest” in “Star Trek fanfic”. Moreover, do you honestly think that Trek alumni like Brannon Braga or Robert Duncan McNeill (he directed the second episode, which I found hilarious) or Jonathan Frakes (will direct an upcoming episode) or guest stars like Liam Neeson (portraying the long dead muligenerational starship captain in Episode IV) or Charlize Theron (Episode V) would be wasting their time with “Star Trek fanfic”?
As for Klingon pigmentation, that should be a valid question to ask, since neither the series nor any of the books have depicted Qo’nos with an environment that might yield purplish Klingon pigmentation. That, as a valid question, should interest anyone, not just someone like yours truly with a background in evolutionary biology.
Fanfic does not mean bad. I’m just saying that instead of trying to create his own thing, MacFarlane decided to make a Star Trek show changing the names and colors of things. Is it good? Yes. Is it better Trek than DIS? Well, some of you think so, me and others don’t. I don’t even think it’s excellent. Just “good”.
@@@@@ Christopher, I don’t have a background in vertebrate paleontology, but over the course of the last 66 million years, several different lineages of carnivores (placental mammals) and marsupials have yielded sabertooth cats, that resemble each other superficially due to convergent evolution because of natural selection within similar – if not virtually identical – environments. I strongly doubt that an alien “tardigrade” would resemble a terrestrial one, and yet, there’s an exact copy in that Discovery lab. Nor could I imagine a tardigrade killing Klingons; a more likely culprit could be a feathered dromaeosaur.
I think the STD is closer to being fanfic than The Orville is. I swear it is exactly the sort of angsty first-fanfic-pls-upvote stuff that I used to write read way back when I was 15 and thought nasty and violent was “real” and “edgy”. STD is not just fanfic, it is bad fanfic at that. To be fair I felt much the same about Nemesis, Into Darkness, and ENT S3. Ironically when ENT embraced fanfic in S4 it was really good fanfic, apart from the Martian Terrorist episodes obviously.
The Orville clearly takes inspiration from TNG, not gonna deny that, but I think it is pretty much its own thing. It certainly had a clearer sense of what it wanted to be right from the off. I wish they would lean a little lighter on the jokes, but I’m glad they are there, and they’ve wisely kept their complete-alien crewmember (the Goo Guy, I should look up his name but nah) to the background though. I’m really enjoying it, that and the new series of Red Dwarf too.
@164 MaGnUs, if you are going to be logically consistent, then shouldn’t “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine” be viewed as “Babylon 5 fanfic”, especially now that we know that Paramount did “borrow” some of the elements of “Babylon 5” from J. Michael Straczynski, after he tried unsuccessfully in pitching “Babylon 5” to Paramount?
Clearly “The Orville” is in one sense, a homage to “Star Trek”, but ample credit is due to both Brannon Braga and Seth MacFarlane in ensuring that their space opera TV series isn’t “Star Trek fanfic”.
@@@@@ 166 random22, yours are an especially astute set of observations, and I find myself in full agreement, especially when the Star Trek: Discovery creative team admitted last Saturday at their Paleyfest panel that they are all Star Trek fans. Much to their credit, I think Braga and MacFarlane are setting up their own, distinct, future history for “The Orville” that doesn’t resemble at all the current CBS-produced “Star Trek fanfic”.
The Orville “takes inspiration” from Trek, that’s funny.
@@@@@ 169 MaGnUs, Paramount could have been sued by J. Michael Straczynski for producing its “Babylon 5 fanfic”, “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine”. That’s not funny.
@163/John Kwok: “it may be either “Once Upon a Planet” or “Eye of the Beholder”. “
Nope.
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=50
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=57
@@@@@ Christopher, the feathered theropod is in a “Star Trek: TAS” episode. Trust me. I wouldn’t be wasting my time stating something that isn’t true. And if you doubt me about convergent evolution, stop by the University of Cincinnati geology department and chat with one of its invertebrate paleontoloiogists, Dr. Carleton E. Brett. If you do go, say hi to Carl for me. I haven’t seen him in ages.
Chris recently watched the whole of TOS, and didn’t see that creature. And others who have seen the show have said that it’s not there. I’m sure krad, who just rewatched it weeks ago, can weigh in.
@@@@@ !73 MaGnUs, it’s there in a TAS episode. You only see it for a second or two, but you do hear it roaring for more than a few seconds. Speaking of TAS, with episodes like David Gerrold’s “More Tribbles, More Troubles” and “BEM”, and my personal favorite, D. C. Fontana’s “Yesteryear”, I saw better written episodes than what I have glimpsed from “ST:D”, with the sole exception being the pilot episode, “The Vulcan Hello”.
If “The Orville” was indeed “Star Trek fanfic”, then I think that’s legally better than having Paramount produce its “Babylon 5 fanfic”, “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine”. (I am noting this as someone who is a huge fan of both “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine” and “Babylon 5”.)
This horse is well and truly glue, now.
Hah!
@172 John Kwok
You are the one making an assertion that requires evidence, so no, we don’t need to trust you on this. Several experts on Trek have said you are wrong, and Christopher has given you evidence to back up his claim that those two episodes don’t involve what you claim.
You claim you watched the episode only weeks ago, so it should be easy for you to identify it from the link Christopher provided, which has detailed screencaps for all TAS episodes. Go ahead, do YOUR work and show us which episode it is.
Stop expecting people to just accept your evidence-free assertion. Act like a grown-up. Provide evidence. Find a screen cap. Tell us the precise episode.
YOU are the one who must provide evidence to support your assertion that what you claim exists *actually exists.” That’s “Logic 101” and basic critical thinking and fundamental rhetoric and just basic common sense.
@@@@@ 177 Paul B, it’s “Eye of the Beholder”. I’m not going to post a link. But Spock, Kirk and McCoy are chased by an alien ttheropod-like dinosaur with feathers.
Speaking of your dedication to logic, is it logical to have an alien creature BE A tardigrade? No. As I pointed out to Christopher Bennett (@@@@@165), we have ample fossil evidence from the geological record over the past 66 million years that there are repeated instances of sabertooth cats evolving from carnivores and marsupial mammals, and yet, none of them closely resemble each other. You wouldn’t expect an alien tardigrade to look EXACTLY like a terrestrial one, and yet, there it is, in that USS Discovery lab. Just one of many instances where the “Star Trek: Discovery” writers haven’t exhibited the intelligence I’ve seen from David Gerrold and D. C. Fontana when they wrote for “ST: TAS”, or from Brannon Braga, Seth MacFarlane and their team of writers for “The Orville”. Mentioning that the Federation has visited Romulus recently is a major error IMHO and I think you need to worry more about that instead of wondering whether or not I am right about that old “TAS” episode.
@@@@@ 177 PaulB, speaking of expertise, I have noted repeatedly that I am a former evolutionary biologist with a background in invertebrate paleontology. What is the “expertise” of the “experts” you cite? Moreover, I have noted that I don’t have a background in vertebrate paleontology so I can’t describe extensively, the separate evolutionary histories of the carnivore and marsupial lineages that gave rise independently of each other, various species of sabertooth cats. So if you refuse to accept my expertise here, then you are being logically inconsistent.
#178 & 179 John Kwok
First, NO, there is NOT a feathered theropod in “Eye of the Beholder.” No matter how many times you proclaim it, it’s simply not true. No such feathered creature appears in that episode. Perhaps you think you saw such a thing, but it’s not in this episode. (You see, I actually watched the episode just now–something an actual scientist would do to verify their claim. Sadly, you refuse to do even that much of your own part of this conversation.)
Second, I didn’t comment on the tardigrade at all, so there’s no point in your barking at me about Christopher’s attitude toward it. But since you asked, I think the giant tardigrade is one of the dumbest, most easily avoided science blunders ever in Trek history, and I find Christopher’s attempts to justify it quite laughable.
Third, you asked “What is the ‘expertise’ of the ‘experts’ you cite?” Umm…Star Trek. I literally said “experts on Trek.” That means their expertise is in Star Trek. (Sorry, I can’t make it any more basic than that.)
Fourth, at no point did I comment on your supposed expertise in evolutionary biology. However, based on your poor reading comprehension and your insistence that we accept your assertions without evidence, I don’t believe you. An actual scientist would have a better grasp on basic logic, evidence, and reading comprehension. An actual scientist would verify support their supposed “facts” instead of insisting that we should just trust them. An actual scientist would seek the right answer, not just repeat his claims more loudly.
Meanwhile, yes, the giant tardigrade is insanely stupid, as is the spore drive. It doesn’t take expertise in evolutionary biology to see that.
As much as I dislike elements of the show, particularly everything involving the spore drive, the ‘alien that just happens to look a lot like a tardigrade’ is a failure of imagination, but a relatively minor one, not worth getting hung up over, IMHO, again in a universe where plenty of creatures look an awful lot like other creatures. It doesn’t mean that its internal organs are like a terrestrial one, which would be silly (I mean, I wouldn’t put it past them to claim that at some point but right now I’d rather assume ‘slight lack of imagination’ over ‘stupid’), and it doesn’t even match EXACTLY what a tardigrade looks like at least in all the conventional pictures I’ve found. There’s huge spines coming from the top/back of the head, the hide looks more like ridged armor plates than the folded fabric look I associate with microscopic tardies, even the color. It looks like they took a conventional animal and added a tried to make it look a bit alien… much like they did when they showed us a Targ, except yes, with CGI ideally they could get even more elaborate and different, but… they thought tardigrades looked cool and wanted to work that look into an alien creature, it’s a fairly respectable impulse, IMHO. Better than another insect or worm.
@161/MaGnUs: Sure. That’s why I wrote “Spock didn’t tell the truth” and not “Spock lied”. But it’s important for “Balance of Terror” that the treaty has been unbroken. Sending people to Romulus to show off the new spore drive puts “Balance of Terror” in a different light, and I don’t like that. It’s not about breaking canon, it’s about casually ruining a good episode.
@162/Christopher: Yes, that would be wonderful! I think it’s hard to do well – to invent a whole planet with multiple plant and animal species and cultures and nations and not make it a carbon copy of Earth. But I’d probably enjoy it even if it was done badly. And it would be something that hasn’t been done before.
@182/Jana: I might have already mentioned this, but I don’t think the spore drive actually sent Burnham to the places she saw, it just let her perceive them. Since the “tardigrade” was in that booth when they used the drive, my impression is that the booth is basically part of the sensor/navigation system that lets them lock onto a location, with the ship as a whole then using the drive to travel there.
@183/Christopher: No, I don’t think you have. Good thought!
@180 PaulB – It has feathers, even if its underside doesn’t. The fact that it has two claws on its forearms would make one think instinctively of a terrestrial dinosaur like a Tyrannosaurus rex. Aside from that, however, I find more difficult to swallow the errors that both myself and others have noted about the tardigrade, visiting Romulus, and yes, of course, the spore drive. They are serious because they involve key aspects of the plot. Again, it is difficult to imagine that an alien “tardigrade” like Ripper could kill Klingons, especially those shown on “Star Trek: Discovery”. Far more credible would be something like a feathered dromaeosaur like a Velociraptor the size of Utahraptor – the real “raptors”, not the ones seen in the “Jurassic Park” films. Having established that the Federation didn’t know what Romulans looked like in “Balance of Terror” or had no contact with them since the Romulan war of the late 2250s/early 2260s, it is a serious violation of the canon for members of the USS Discovery crew visiting Romulus to demonstrate the spore drive. As for the ridiculous spore drive itself, the inspiration probably came out of conversations with the real-life Paul Stamets, who, as I have nave noted earlier, isn’t in the same league as a scientist like noted evolutionary developmental biologist Dr. Sean B. Carroll, noted ecologist and ant systematist Dr. E. O. Wilson and noted molecular biologist Dr. Eric Lander.
Given the stupid – and important – aspects of the plot, I think I understand why Brannon Braga and Nicholas Meyer left “Star Trek: Discovery”.
@@@@@ 180 PaulB, we’re discussing a SF television series that claims to respect the “canon” laid out by its predecessors, and also claims to rely upon science, not the real-life behavior of scientists. So your complaints about me not providing “evidence” don’t have much merit. While I’ll agree with you that you don’t need expertise in evolutionary biology to point out errors in the show, I am relying upon that background as a means of providing the very “evidence” which you’ve been demanding. (I’ve known Trek fans who were science denialists, starting with a college schoolmate who had a nearly two meter-long printout of a D-7 Klingon battlecruiser from TOS, and yet was also a Young Earth Creationist.)
@186 John Kwok
Live long and prosper, Mr. Kwok.
@Paul B, Live long and prosper too. (I said that to Jason Isaacs and gave him the Vulcan salute when I met him at New York Comic Con.)
At least we can agree about just how dumb both the spore drive and the “tardigrade” are.
The way that Lorca states it, she and the others actually travelled there. Another difference is that the tardigrade was wearing the harness and Burham and the otheres weren’t.
“Imagine the possibilities.
Wanna see where they’re going? Where they’ve been? Or where they could take us? Hold tight.
Blink, you’re in Ilari.
Blink, the moons of Andoria.
Blink, you missed Romulus.”
Perhaps the harness is necessary to take the ship with you when you travel a great distance. After all, they’ve used the spore drive without the tardigrade but not to travel as far as the Glenn who had one (and kept it secret).
Where they’ve been. It sure sounds like they’ve travelled there. So they’ve seen Romulus but apparently didn’t see any Romulans since the Federation didn’t know what they looked like until BoT. Unless Starfleet kept it secret from the ships and outposts along the neutral zone who were most likely to encounter them.
And there’s no explanation why there’s a Preserver obelisk on a moon of Andoria.
@189/kkozoriz: “The way that Lorca states it, she and the others actually travelled there.”
Except his speech explicitly began with “Imagine the possibilities.” Also “where they could take us,” not “where they can take us.” He was encouraging her to imagine what the drive could achieve once it was working. He wasn’t literally referring to the places she was seeing when he spoke. According to Memory Alpha, those places included Starbase 11 and Janus VI, neither of which he mentioned. And obviously the Preserver obelisk couldn’t be on a moon of Andoria.
Besides, it’s just common sense. If they already had a working means to teleport anywhere in the universe, that’s more than enough of an advantage to win the war, by teleporting strike teams or bombs to any enemy target. That in itself would be a monumental, game-changing breakthrough. The fact that they consider it just one step toward a desired breakthrough proves that it isn’t an actual working teleporter.
Not if they can only send one or two people at a time. With a ship, you get much greater firepower.
And when Lorca says “the moons of Andoria” we see this.
(For some reason it won’t accept the picture but here’s the link)
The moons of Andoria
And if the spore drive can take you to the moons of Andoia, where else can it take you? “Imagine the possibilities” indeed.
If I show you a picture of Paris, that doesn’t mean you can now say “I’ve been to Paris”. In order to do that, you have to actually GO to Paris.
@183 – Chris: That’s perfect. It explains why they haven’t used the booth as an interstellar transporter for commando teams. (Interstellar transporting is one of the worst things in the Kelvin movies.)
@192/MaGnUs: The Kelvin movies were hardly the first Trek stories to feature interstellar transporters — see TOS: “The Gamesters of Triskelion” and “That Which Survives,” DS9: “The Jem’Hadar,” TNG: “Bloodlines,” and VGR: “Displaced,” not to mention Erickson’s failed experiment in ENT: “Daedalus.” So that tech has been known in the Trek universe almost from the beginning. It’s just generally treated as either an advanced alien technology that isn’t understood or one that’s considered too dangerous or impractical to use. ST’09 tried to suggest the latter by having Scotty talk about how difficult it was (“like trying to hit a bullet with a smaller bullet whilst wearing a blindfold, riding a horse”) and by having him materialize in the wrong place and almost drown. As with so many things in the Kelvinverse, it didn’t really become problematical until STID, where it was treated as almost routine.
That’s what I meant, not their existence at all.
The problem with the interstellar transporter in ST09 was that it was whipped together by oldSpock in 5 seconds using a transporter in an old shuttlecraft. Forget about power requirements, targeting sensors and the like. Just a quick tweak and we get a useable interstellar transporter that just needs some very minor refinements in the targeting sensors. After all, Kirk and Scott arrived at the right velocity, in a habitable section of the ship (Even though Scotty materialized in a pipe, it was filled with water and not some caustic substance, plasma or anti-matter) and with all their organs in the right place.
So, despite his standing orders not to introduce advanced tech to the past, Spock directly creates the means by which Khan later beams to the Klingon homeworld. WTG Spock!
@194/MaGnUs: What I mean is, it was really only one Kelvin movie, STID, that presented interstellar beaming in a problematical way. ST ’09 portrayed it as a difficult, risky thing for use in extreme circumstances only, and Beyond didn’t even mention it. So saying it’s a problem with “the Kelvin movies” is, I think, an overstatement. It’s a problem with one movie. I think people tend to blame the entire series for too many things that are really only a problem with the second film.
You’ve got a point there, but don’t worry, I don’t discount the Kelvin movies entirely. I like the first and third one for what they are, movie Trek.
But it wasn’t presented as difficult in ST09. It literally took seconds to reconfigure an old transporter to one that could beam two people across interstellar distances onto a ship at warp. And it didn’t take any effort on the part of the Enterprise to receive them. What STID did was simply miniaturize the tech down to something the size of a suitcase. Khan’s target was much larger and wasn’t moving at warp. And, as the movie shows, Kronos is much closer to Earth than most people assumed it was. Enterprise, in it’s first episode, made that clear and STID simply went along with that.
@@@@@ 198 MaGnUs, there is “movie Trek”, and then there is “movie Trek” like the films that featured Nicholas Meyer’s writing. I’ve discounted the Kelvin movies, except for Keith Urban’s portrayal of Dr. McCoy and Benedict Cumberbatch’s Khan; in the latter case, that was the only redeeming feature of a film that had ripped off Meyer’s excellent dialogue from “The Wrath of Khan” aside from Urban’s acting.
@199/John Kwok: Whereas I find that The Wrath of Khan has the most stilted and unnatural dialogue of all the Trek films…
@199 I’m just amazed that Keith Urban took time off of his huge country music career to star in several Trek movies. ;)
LOL, Keith Urban.
It was my Mirror Universe self – the one who thinks Captain Lorca is GOD – who confused Karl Urban with Keith Urban. Thanks for the corrections!
Regarding the tardigrade…
You mean to tell me not one person on the ship thought to try the universal translator on it?
Just because it might be sentient it doesn’t mean the UT will work. It can have thought patterns and ways of communication the UT is not calibrated for yet.
Spock managed to make it work on the Companion using a portable UT and the few tools found on a shuttlecraft. If it can tell an energy field is female….
Spock is Spock, and it happened over a decade later.
Sentience doesn’t necessarily equal linguistic ability. It literally means the ability to feel, to experience qualia and emotion — basically, to know what’s happening to you and to care about it. There are species that have sentience but don’t have the ability for full linguistic communication, e.g. dogs and horses.
Of course, Trek tends to use “sentience” as synonymous with “sapience,” i.e. humanlike intelligence, so it’s hard to know for sure how they were using it here.
@207 MaGnUs – And Discovery is a dedicated science ship and the UT has been in use for a hundred years. Now, we all kmow that Spock is held up as some kind of super-scientist but you’d think that somebody would at least try the thing. Burnham’s a Xenoanthropologist, you’d think that it would occur to her. Of course, in Star Trek, when you’re a scientist that means that you know lots about all the sciences. You may have a specialty but you know a large amount about pretty much everything scientific.
You can think whatever you want, but none of the Discovery crewmen is Spock, and we don’t know what advances in UT technology might have happened in that decade.
The Universal Translator is a storytelling convenience that makes no realistic sense. So it only works when the story needs it to. And as I said, there are forms of sentience that do not equate to the ability to communicate in human-style language.
211. ChristopherLBennett – “a storytelling convenience that makes no realistic sense. So it only works when the story needs it to.”
You can say that about pretty much all Star Trek technology. Warp Drive, phasers, transporters, holodecks. That’s no reason to single out the UT.
If the UT can translate the thought patterns of an energy being or the gravitons emissions of a crystalline entity, then you’d at least try it on every new species you encounter.
But they didn’t know yet it was capable of those things.
Somebody’s got to be first. Did Spock say “Well, it’s never worked on anything like the Companion so I’m not going to even try”?
Trivia: Lorca is the name of a Spanish city, and the surname of the Spanish poet Federico Garcia Lorca, author of the surreal poetry book Poet in New York (Leonard Cohen made songs about those poems, specially “Take this waltz”).
Lorca’s name is linked to war and tragedy: in fact, Garcia Lorca was martial-courted and summarily executed 80 years ago during the Spanish Civil War, and his body was never found.
His killers hated everything he was: intelligent, gay, surrealistic, eager to experiment with new ideas, open to understanding rather than war.. everything Star Trek is.
Ironically, Captain Lorca is not pacifist…but who knows, maybe he would but he can’t because he’s trapped in war. Maybe his Spanish-like skin and his angst is a subtle tribute to the poet Lorca. Except the detail of pacifism, of course.
Regarding TWOK vs. TMP and the first two seasons of TNG, well, my own favorite out of the “Genesis Trilogy” is The Voyage Home (and my understanding is that it was always the most popular of the TOS movies). And while there is no question that the original theatrical release of TMP was not good, I would assert (having seen, and loved, the re-edited version) that this was a matter of really bad editing that put SFX before story.
Given that I refuse to subscribe to a paid streaming service, and that my home has neither the bandwidth nor the iron to support one, I am only now seeing DSC. And so far, while it’s not my favorite ST series, and I can see a number of problems, I still like it better than I like the “Dominion War” and “Pah-Wraith War” arcs of DS9, or the “Xindi War” arc of ENT.
And I find KRAD’s assertions about the need for good individual episodes even with a full-season arc to be spot-on. Even in a series in which the arc was everything (I am of course speaking of what I like to call “the longest miniseries in history,” Babylon 5, and I’m not going to get into the comedy of errors in which the B5 and DS9 people kept trying to differentiate their respective series, with most of their efforts backfiring), there were good individual stories.
☰ I’m assuming this phase of the series is pre-TOS so that Lorca can be extra-non-Roddenberry.
Though I am once again late to the reacTOR party, I’ll note that the mention of Elon Musk as some sort of visionary would have made my eyes roll 6 years ago or more, but nowadays I’m sure I’ve got many, many more eyerollers joining me.
TOS featured other captains as bad as Lorca or worse, like Ronald Tracey and Garth of Izar (though he had the excuse of insanity), not to mention other malicious or deeply flawed humans like Harry Mudd, R.M. Merik, Larry Marvick, and Janice Lester. Roddenberry didn’t try to portray a perfected humanity until TNG.
And if you’re watching for the first time, you’ll find there’s a reason for Lorca’s, shall we say, atypical behavior.