It’s always dangerous to riff on a popular story you’ve already done. You do a thing, it’s nifty, and you think, “We should do that again.” Deep Space Nine does “Necessary Evil” and it’s brilliant, so they try to do it again with “Things Past,” and it doesn’t quite come together as well. The Next Generation does “The Inner Light,” and it’s a massive hit, and several Trek shows take another shot at something “Inner Light”-ish and it can’t light a candle. “Cause and Effect” was a great TNG episode, a brilliant use of the five-act structure by Brannon Braga and elegantly directed by Jonathan Frakes. Braga himself riffed on it later on in TNG‘s “Timescape,” which wasn’t anywhere near as good, though it was still a perfectly good episode.
Discovery’s “Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad” is a total riff on “Cause and Effect” (and also on Groundhog Day), and it’s not anywhere near as good. But it still works as an episode, mostly because the focus remains squarely on our main character.
One of the things I’m liking about Discovery is that it’s not about the captain and first officer. Lorca and Saru are important supporting characters, but the show is actually about Burnham. And while “Magic…” involves a threat to the entire ship—indeed, a threat to the entire Federation—the focus remains on Burnham.
We open and close with that old Trek standby, the log entry. The opening entry does what such logs have done since the first season of the original series, to wit, provide exposition. The war is going well, at least partly thanks to Discovery’s spore drive. Burnham herself is starting to slowly become part of the ship’s routine, with a station on the bridge and her friendship with Tilly developing.
The closing entry, though, is all about Burnham, and how far she’s come. It brings the episode full circle nicely, closing out one final loop.
In between, we find out that Harry Mudd got his hands on time-travel technology that allows him to re-live the same half-hour over and over again until he gets it right. Freed from consequence, he gets to do fun things like kill Lorca 50+ times (I must confess to finding the montage of Lorca murders to be embarrassingly entertaining), and learn more and more about the ship until he can take over the computer.
But there’s a wrinkle. The opening log entry also provides another piece of exposition that we really could’ve used last week: Stamets has truly taken the tardigrade’s place and he’s the one operating the spore drive. It’s resulted in a personality shift, as he’s much loopier and stranger (insert “he’s on shrooms!” joke here), but he also apparently exists outside the normal flow of time and space, which means he also remembers every single time loop (unlike everyone else, who re-sets).
It’s not that easy, though, as Stamets has a hard time convincing people of what he says at first, though he has an easier time with each loop as, like Mudd, he learns more each time. During one loop, he asks Burnham to tell him a secret by way of being able to convince her on the next go-round, which is how we find out that Burnham has never been in love.
The theme of love and affection and relationships are all throughout the episode, from Tilly’s drunken ramblings about the kinds of men she likes to Stamets telling the story of how he and Culber met to Tyler and Burnham dancing to the revelations about Mudd and Stella at the very end (more on that in a bit).
Stamets uses the attraction between Tyler and Burnham, because as chief of security, Tyler is the one who has the best chance of stopping Mudd in his tracks, but the rational-sounding Burnham is far more likely to convince him than a crazy-sounding Stamets, especially since Stamets isn’t Tyler’s type…
Eventually, Mudd gets what he wants: how to operate the spore drive. The missing piece through every loop has been Stamets himself, and the engineer is no longer willing to watch people die (he’s done it a lot at this point), so he reveals the secret to Mudd. At that point, they need to give Mudd a reason to reset the time loop one more time, so Burnham gives him something more valuable: her.
It’s a brilliant move. Burnham isn’t listed on the officer manifest, as she isn’t an officer anymore, so Mudd doesn’t realize that he has something way more valuable to the Klingons than the spore drive. He has T’Kuvma’s killer. The Klingons will pay a queen’s ransom for that—and then Burnham kills herself. It’s a ballsy move, and a risky one, as there’s no guarantee that Mudd won’t just cut his losses and settle for selling the spore drive.
However, she rightly bets that Mudd will always let greed win (something we’ve seen in every other appearance of Mudd), so he resets the loop one more time so he can sweeten the pot with Burnham as well as the spore drive.
The solution is very elegant. Mudd only took over critical systems, and they’re able to manipulate non-critical systems to learn things: scans of the gormagander (a space whale that’s nearly extinct—and I like that Saru and Burnham immediately move to save the creature when they discover it) that Mudd used to get on board, reading Mudd’s Wikipedia entry, and reprogramming the interface on the captain’s chair. Thus, while Mudd has computer control, he hasn’t summoned the Klingons to their coordinates, he’s summoned his wife Stella’s father’s yacht.
Last week, we got a revelation that put a 50-year-old character conflict into a new light. This time we get a retcon that makes a different 50-year-old character conflict way more palatable to a 2017 audience, as the revolting stereotype of the shrewish, hen-pecking wife really needed an update. Stella’s father is an arms dealer, and he’s not happy that Mudd made off with the dowry…
As with “Cause and Effect,” both script (by co-executive producers Aron Eli Colette and Jesse Alexander) and directing (by David M. Barrett) do a good job of abbreviating the scenes and shooting from different angles to keep things from getting repetitive. As with “Choose Your Pain,” Rainn Wilson’s Mudd is a delight. Wilson’s casual attitude toward the situation—due to knowing full well that there will never be consequences—and freewheeling self-centeredness helps keep the episode light. His presence makes the episode less like “Cause and Effect” and more like Groundhog Day (or, more particularly, Stargate SG-1‘s “Window of Opportunity“), which only helps matters. The show’s been very dark and gloomy in general, and a lighter episode is welcome, from the junior staff having a big-ass party to Mudd’s snark to Tilly’s drunken ramblings to Burnham and Tyler stumbling toward a relationship. (Apropos of nothing, it’s nice to finally have a Trek TV show that is willing to pay for the rights to music—prior characters’ interest in classical and jazz was as much motivated by the fact that such music is in the public domain as anything. Tyler and Burnham dancing to Al Green’s “Love and Happiness” was just perfect.)
The performances are brilliant all around, not just Wilson, but also our main characters, particularly Anthony Rapp as the frustrated Stamets trying desperately to free his crewmates from a trap they don’t even know they’re in, and especially Sonequa Martin-Green, who continues to kill it as Burnham. Every ensemble lives or dies on the strength of its lead, and Martin-Green is up to the challenge, as she accomplishes so much with her facial expressions and vocal inflections.
What’s frustrating is how underused Doug Jones has been as Saru, but it looks like next week will do a bit to correct that, based on the previews. We can only hope…
Keith R.A. DeCandido will be the special guest at the Providence Literary Festival in Providence, Kentucky on Saturday the 4th of November. Come by and say hello!
I am so glad I am not paying for this. I’ve pretty much decided that STD is out of my private ST Canon. Those of you who feel differently go ahead and enjoy. I don’t begrudge you your pleasure. I just don’t share it.
I have a hard time believing Harry Mudd could be such a ruthless killer. Technically things worked out so that he didn’t kill anybody (which I suppose is why they let him go at the end, since there was no actual evidence of any crime to charge him with other than being a stowaway), but he didn’t know that would be the case. In the penultimate loop, he killed Tyler quite brutally and intended to return to normal time thereafter, so that Tyler’s death would “stick.” So lack of consequences doesn’t explain why he’s so much more vicious.
Okay, maybe the Klingon prison left him rather badly scarred. And “Mudd’s Women” did say he’d been through psychological treatment of disputed effectiveness, though it never suggested it was for anything of this magnitude. It’s an odd storytelling choice to so completely reinvent Mudd as such a violent character when it’s supposed to be a younger version of the same, much more cuddly rogue we know from TOS and TAS. I also have trouble believing he could be this smart.
I am also really sick of time-loop episodes, and the crew’s casual reaction to temporal phenomena seemed anachronistic, given that Spock in “The Naked Time” seemed to think of time travel as a theoretical phenomenon that the Federation had never discovered how to do. Okay, Archer dealt with time travel, but always instigated by outsiders. It wasn’t something his crew ever did under their own power. So Burnham just rattling off stuff about time crystals and four-dimensional beings as if this were routine knowledge was strange.
The casual reaction to the space whale also seemed incongruous, given that spacegoing life forms were generally treated in TOS and TNG as being rather extraordinary things. That’s an ongoing difference between the two prequel series. Enterprise went back to the past and really played up the sense of wonder and discovery, showing its characters reacting with awed wonder and unfamiliarity to things that are more routine in the other shows. That was one of its most endearing qualities — it captured the spirit of discovery and curiosity better than any other Trek series. But this show, which is literally named for the idea of discovery, has its characters reacting to amazing new things as if they were casual, routine business, or considering them only in terms of whether they’re useful or inconvenient in the context of the war. The writers assume the audience already knows all the tropes, so the characters just go through the motions. Meh, it’s a space whale. Oh, well, it’s another time loop. Who cares, we’ve got a romance to set up between two characters who’ve only known each other for a couple of weeks.
Also, what kind of an insane idea was it to beam a creature evolved for space into a starship’s pressurized atmosphere and artificial gravity field? The poor thing was obviously miserable there on the deck, probably being crushed under its own weight like a beached whale. And there’s no telling what the air pressure was doing to it. Couldn’t they at least turn off the gravity in the shuttlebay?
Mudd’s space helmet was… interesting. Perhaps an Andorian design? Oddly cartoonish, though.
I definitely do not like the reinvention of Harry Mudd. The Mudd I know and sort of love is a cheat, a liar and a compulsive grifter. What he is not is a cold blooded killer or as CLB says particularly bright.
I wasn’t happy with the retconing of Sarek from a stiff necked traditionalist to a deliberate liar to his family either. It seems to me STD is changing and distorting too much.
princessroxana: Um, Sarek was established as a deliberate liar to his family in his very first appearance. He kept his possibly fatal heart condition from his wife in “Journey to Babel.” That’s not retconning, that’s paying attention.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I love time the travel episodes Star Trek does, not for any particular reason, they’re just fun. But this ep could’ve done far more with this and Mudd instead of making it a vehicle for a romance setup.
Im not onboard with how Mudd is just a killer here, also the bridge crew just stood around? The captain is being murdered, there’s an intruder in the bridge of the USS Experimental ship aaaand the crew just stands around? No threats nor action, they just hang out and watch Mudd threaten and kill Lorca? And we’re fine with that? Does this happen so much that it’s just another day for them? Where’s Saru and his death sense? What about the robot girl that I’m assuming is kind of like the Choblik just not deer like? Is this like ‘crew log star date blah blah blah, woke up had a shower ate breakfast did some reports captain Lorca was threatened again, went off duty, went to the lounge, went to bed. Just another boring day.’?
i did find it funny that this episode took place entirely on the ship with only a few sets. Expensive bottle episode!
@2/Christopher: This tends to bother me in TNG too – sometimes the characters encounter the most wonderful stuff without being awed. Of course, one century earlier, that’s even worse.
@4/krad: That was a different kind of lie, though. He probably kept his heart condition from his wife because he didn’t want her to worry about him. It may have been misguided, but it’s a fairly common thing to do.
Krad, you are of course right. But to my eye there is a difference between hiding medical condition from ones spouse, and note Sarek NEVER did that again! And decieving one’s daughter into believing she failed you and deliberately inflicting lasting mental pain. The first is majorly unwise, the latter is deliberate cruelty. YMMV
Android Stella was clearly a caricature of Harry’s, but (I haven’t seen the episode) I would think Real Stella would not put up with Harry’s shit. Did that come through?
princessroxana: How you do you know Sarek never did that again? Hell, a hundred years later, he pretty much let himself be gaslit by his wife and staff with regards to his Bendii Syndrome, which isn’t exactly an improvement…..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I loved this episode, and I normally hate time loops. It was just so exquisitiely done in this case; plus the Lorca death montage was disturbing (in a good way). Loved how they advanced Michael’s character, through all of her relationships with other characters. And of course, the way they defeated Mudd was just BRILLIANT. Stellar, even. *wink* And Stamets keeps getting better and better. I loved his story about how he and Culbert met, and why they got together.
Another thing I loved was Jason Isaacs’ looks of “Behold the field where all my f*cks are grown, and see that it is barren!” every time Saru or Michael tell him something about the gormagander.
Wilson as Mudd (wait, he’s RaiNN and MuDD!) was amazing, I loved his gloating, and his growing annoyance at having to do things over and over. Also, as he learns about the ship on every iteration of the loop, I can infer that Stamets being the key to operating the sporedrive is being kept off the record.
The episode reminded me of TOS, TNG, and DS9, the latter in particular because even in times of war, it shows people trying to blow of steam and being people. We even got a disco on the Disco! About next week’s episode, it looks like we’re doing an away mission at last! (Yes, we had one at the begining of the pilot, I know.)
@2 – Chris: Yes, my son and I theorized that helmet looked Andorian, and even hoped that wasn’t Mudd yet, but an Andorian… until we saw his hands.
@5 – Loungshep: Yes, that I will concede: even with the dark matter bombs, or even a phaser/disruptor; there were many oportunities for the crew to take him down on several ocassions. As for the “robot girl”, Lt. Cmdr. Airiam, they’ve said in After Trek that she is a cybernetically-enhanced human. DIS (or DSC, but NOT STD, people, quit it with that idiocy) seems to love it’s cyborgs.
@8 – jmeltzer: Android Stella seems to be a bit possessive and creepy, she knows Mudd is rotten, but she wants to keep him, as one would keep a pet.
@9, Krad. I know he didn’t lie to his wife about his physical condition again. ‘Sarek’ proves that much.
I liked this ep. Yes, it had flaws. The party made me wince. Really? They were like a bunch of college kids. And they want us to believe that a kind of beer pong survives several hundred years from now? And can’t they create original music? Although I admit, using “Staying Alive” made me laugh.
Mudd was a delight. And Stella? Keith said that the “revolting stereotype of the shrewish, hen-pecking wife really needed an update.” Well, she seemed very steely and there were definitely elements of the shrew to come. It was very clear. Was it over-the-top like the android that Mudd built of Stella? No and perhaps he overdid the bitchiness of his wife. However, this is at the beginning of the relationship (not even married yet) but one could easily see that after 20 years of his bullshit, that Stella would be angry/nagging/shrewish.
It still surprises me that no one save the doctor seems concerned about Stamets’ abrupt personality change.
Not so sure that letting Harry off after he got the spore drive info was wise. Yes, it was satisfying to see him dragged off by Stella and her daddy, but what are they going to do, keep him imprisoned? He’ll bolt again asap and he’ll really be mad and come after them again.
Poor Burnham. Hope Tyler *isn’t* a Klingon spy or she’s set up for more pain. She can’t buy a break.
Still though, fun ep. Felt like TOS.
This episode is ok in isolation, but really terrible in context. We’ve just had a seemingly important Admiral kidnapped, and then we begin this episode with a throw away line about the Federation winning the war. This would be like if DS9 had interrupted its final ten episodes with that baseball episode. It’s just bad storytelling. It really feels like the writers aren’t sure what story they’re telling anymore.
I feel as if this episode also botches the appeal of groundhog day stories, which is to seem the same events over and over, but slowly watch the characters catch on and begin to change things. Cause and Effect did this brilliantly. Here, we get random events that allegedly are the same day. Also, how big of a deus ex machina are we going to make that tardigrade thing? Now, it imbues people with time resetting powers too?
@12 – Tbonz: They probably chose “Stayin’ Alive” on purpose, in universe. I agree that it’s weird that only Doctor Culber is concerned about Stamets.
@13 – William: Not the 10 final episodes, but DS9 did lighthearted episodes, much more lighthearted than this one, all in the middle of a very violent war. Also, the stardigrade DNA did not give Rapp the ability to reset time, but to remember everything that happened during each iteration of the time loop. It’s completely within the realm of possibility of being able to navigate through the mycellium network.
On another note: where’s Lorca’s tribble? We haven’t seen it since Tyler came on board…
If I were guessing as to how the Tyler/Voq connection will turn out, I’d theorize that the writers are taking a page from Diane Duane’s Rihannsu novels, in which one of the central characters is a Federation agent planted in extremely deep cover on the Romulan homeworld. Tyler could very well have been sent on a similar mission, infiltrating the Klingon Empire as a deep-cover observer via the Voq identity, but has now been pulled out on the grounds that with an actual war on, it’s too risky to maintain the pretense.
If that’s an accurate call, then we might further speculate that Lorca was — at least at one time — Tyler’s controller or contact officer, which would provide a reason for Lorca’s having been given some of the posts and assignments he’s drawn despite his public service record being mostly focused on scientific missions.
Well, having Tyler be VoQ and not the other way around would be an unexpected reversal.
@14. I know DS9 did lighter episodes, but they were never in the middle of a large story arc the way this one was. I chose the example that I did for that exact reason.
As for your other point, I don’t know. It seems like the Tardigrade and the spores have become the new nanoprobes.
It was a long story arc in the way that DS9 was able to do back then: The Dominion War. And as for the stardigrade and the spores, if they gave Stamets the ability to shoot lasers out of his eyes, or to read minds, that might be stretching it a bit. But time/space abilities are completely within reason in this scenario.
@19. I’ll try one more time to explain my problem. The kidnapping of the Admiral should be a major problem for Starfleet. The fact that we get a handwave line about the federation winning the war, ESPECIALLY since she has been kidnapped, feels like poor plotting. For example, suppose in DS9 we skipped from By Inferno’s Light to A Time to Stand. We would feel as if we were missing something. If it doesn’t bother you, then great! Different opinions are fine, as long we both understand where the other is coming from which incidentally is how I feel about Stamets’ magic powers. I think we just have a difference of opinion there.
@13/William Wehrs: “I feel as if this episode also botches the appeal of groundhog day stories, which is to seem the same events over and over, but slowly watch the characters catch on and begin to change things.”
Wow, I couldn’t disagree more. The repetition is what I hate about time loop stories. I think audiences have gotten tired of it too, because this isn’t the first time-loop story I’ve seen recently that just skipped over all those preliminaries we’ve seen a million times before and just got right into the heart of the loop. There was one this past season on Syfy’s Dark Matter where the episode began with a character acting oddly and seeming to know in advance what people were going to say, and then we found out that it was because he’d already been stuck in a time loop long enough to get sick of it. Which was a much fresher and less repetitive way (in two senses) of starting the story. There was another fairly recent one — I can’t remember the show — where the loops were numbered onscreen and started with the first couple of iterations, but then quickly jumped forward at an increasing pace so that the looper quickly became more and more of an expert.
@21. See, I like the repetition because if done skilfully I feel as it builds tension. Edge of Tomorrow is a great example, as we anticipate his being killed, and we see the various ways he avoids it only to die again. I agree it can dull if done wrong, but if done correctly it pays big dividends.
With this episode I am kind of at the point of giving this up, I get way to upset I guess. This has way to many plot holes for me. It starts with them jogging (at a leisurly pace) in the corridors (it’s the future, use a holodeck or something similar with nice scenery please and don’t get in the way of everyone doing their job) to the point where they leave an obivous loose end (Mudd) at a previous episode which now comes back to bite them and then they leave the same loose end again… Trying to sell the secret weapon in the war to the opposition is way worse than what Burnham did (and 100+ attempted murders) an they just let him go! Arrrgh!
Now they have a time travel device with which they can practially win any engagement and I am sure this will be never be seen again.
I thought it was extremely sloppily written, using an idea that by this point is old hat, and never really rising above it.
I mean, look at the last loop (well, technically not a loop since it exited it). Mudd appears on the bridge and everybody welcomes him, makes a deal… except, where was he during the rest of the loop? Seems like in most of the loops, he’s far more progressed in the plan than this. Instead, he only gets to the bridge with a minute or so before the loop runs out and he can’t reset time anymore (because apparently he has a fantastically powerful time travel technology that he’s used before but once you pass an arbitrary deadline it’s completely useless), just long enough to send the message? They don’t even have the excuse of having to fit network commercial breaks, one of the benefits of streaming is that they CAN go a few minutes longer if that’s what it takes to not leave weird logic gaps in your story. Not to mention that the show needed to make Burnham responsible for everything done to oppose Mudd even though she’s not the one who remembers what happens from loop to loop, so I guess you have to assume Burnham filled in Stamets on what she learned every loop and he filled her in again at the start of every loop with enough time to do make a difference (even though IMHO it’d have been a far more interesting story to watch stoned Stamets try and figure out how to save everyone).
But I could forgive those technical flaws in a time travel story as just not being very good, except for that crapsack of an ending that was decided in advance for us despite it making no sense…
…they let him go? This is a man who boarded a top secret vessel in a time of war with the express goal of stealing its secrets and selling them to an enemy power, who FOUND OUT THE SECRETS OF THE TOP SECRET SPORE DRIVE ON PREVIOUS LOOPS, and they sentence him to… an unhappy marriage? Ha-ha, what fun, right? Because there’s no way he could contact the Klingons out of spite and say ‘hey, I can’t sell you the whole ship but if you give me a little money to escape my wife, I’ll tell you how the teleporting ship you’re afraid of generally works and who’s the key crew member and also the location of your messiah’s killer.’ Because obviously this is a prequel and this is Harry Mudd, a character we’ve seen later in the original series, so we can’t execute him, or even put a huge note in his Starfleet file like “This guy’s an attempted traitor, do not trust under any circumstances” for future vessels that might encounter him. I’m sorry, but that is just awful hackwork writing. I’d say it was a stupid consequence of it being a prequel, but it’s not, it’s a stupid consequence of some story idea getting stuck in their head not fitting well with it being a prequel, and instead of changing the story to something that COULD work (ie, make it not be Mudd so they can have a resolution that doesn’t make everyone mind-numbingly stupid) they just try to force it through anyway and produce absolute garbage.
@12, @14 – Actually it wasn’t Stayin’ Alive. It was Wyclef Jean’s We Tryin’ to Stay Alive which does sample Stayin’ Alive, but it is technically a different song.
One thing that I absolutely loved but also bugged the crap out of me about this episode – the way Mudd would wave his hand and initiate the transporter. I loved the way he did it like he was a magician casting the spell (kind of a sly reference to the ep title I guess?), but it bugged me because if he could do that, why the HECK do they need people to push the sliders in the transporter room?
@20 – William: Yes, YMMV.
@25 – critter42: Yes, I noticed it was a remix or sample, but they still played the part that sounds a lot like the original song. And for the transporter handwaving; my headcanon is that he already had set those transports on a timer and knew when they were going to happen (remember, repetitions of the same situation) and handwaved for effect.
@18: “Take Me Out to the Holosuite” and “Badda-Bing-Badda-Bang” both aired in the middle of the Dominion War arc that encompassed the entire final season. Back in the day, fans were outraged that the writers were wasting two precious hours on holodeck episodes when there were so many dangling plot points that needed resolution. (And given how rushed “What You Leave Behind” turned out to be, the outrage was well placed.)
@22/William Wehrs: Come to think of it, Edge of Tomorrow might be the second example I was trying to remember, or at least an example of that approach — instead of a slow buildup, it establishes the first couple of loops and then starts jumping forward rapidly, skipping many iterations of the loop and letting the characters leap forward in experience. And doesn’t it begin with Emily Blunt’s character already in mid-loop?
@23/tobias3: “Now they have a time travel device…”
No, they don’t. We saw it dissolve off Mudd’s wrist when he broke the loop. As Burnham said, the “time crystal” was unstable and couldn’t last indefinitely.
How convenient.
I really enjoyed this one. It’s not a great episode, but it was fun. While having a time loop episode is somewhat repetetive, it was alleviated by having the loop be seen from the outsider’s perspective, rather than the one who realises that they’re trapped.
I don’t think Discovery will be my favourite Trek (DS9 and Enterprise still have my heart: KRAD, how about an Enterprise rewatch…), but I’m enjoying it. It may end up outside my own personal canon, as PrincessRoxana nicely phrased it – it doesn’t feel quite Trek to me sometimes – but if nothing else it’s an enjoyable space show.
I haven’t enjoyed a time-loop story that much since McGyver used a sideways-flushing toilet as a driving range! It had a couple of plot-holes, sure…but it was a fun romp. I was just disappointed that there weren’t any references to the number 3 weaved in anywhere.
Oh God yes, I remember that Stargate SG1 episode very fondly.
Old-fashioned dumb Star Trek episode, making no particular sense plot-wise but fun enough if you can cope with the silliness. The plot holes are absurd, obviously, chiefly with regard to Mudd (how did he get captured by the Klingons if he has all this magitech at his disposal, and how did he escape without it… something about spider???) As noted elsewhere, leaving him anywhere other than at the bottom of a Section 31 oubliette makes no sense. Also, Voq might pay more for Burnham than for Discovery – but Kol?
It does fit my theory that Stamets eventually becomes a Q-style superbeing and vanishes along with human access to the mycelium network.
I think this episode really puts a strain on the Voq theory to me. Tyler is way too smooth and natural to be Voq, who came across as nothing but awkward during his episodes. Tyler is dancing to earth music. Sorry, I don’t see Voq doing that.
This was a time where Klingons and Humans barely knew each other. Think of the adapting Riker had to undergo to serve on a Klingon ship. Worf was raised by humans and even he is rough around the edges. Had Voq even seen a human before the Battle of the Binary Stars?
Nothing against officers blowing off some steam with a party, but it’s disappointing they fell back on “classical music” again instead of using some alien sounding music. And beer pong? Come on, there’s another opportunity to introduce some weird new game to Star Trek. Anything with a little more imagination. And I know this show isn’t afraid to spend money on effects, so don’t rule out some zero-G antics next time.
As Groucho Marx said upon leaving a lame party, “I’ve had a wonderful evening, but this wasn’t it.”
@35/Cheerio: Well, the party source music in TOS episodes like “Mudd’s Women” and “The Conscience of the King” had a very 1940s dance-band quality, and the “space hippie” music in “The Way to Eden” was rather ’60s-sounding. Let’s face it, any attempt to do music that sounds “futuristic” is going to sound dated within a decade or two anyway.
#36 There’s all kinds of strange electronica and other alternative music genres out there that would have been a better fit. Picking mainstream party tracks, like picking dance band and hippie music, is rather lazy. Unless they were specifically having a 1990’s night on the Discovery, then…nah, that’s still lame.
As you pointed out, the show needs to work harder to give this universe a sense of wonder. Creating unique music and games is one way to go about it. Zero-G ping pong? Now that might be something.
I’m also concerned about the abrupt transition from the last episode to this one; I figured we’d get something more than a jump in time – incidentally, how much time has passed between the two episodes? Are we talking days, weeks, months?
Of course, since this episode was almost exclusively from Burnham’s POV, it makes sense that we might not learn anything new about Cornwall’s abduction as Burnham herself probably knows nothing about it. It’s not like Lorca is going to say anything about stranding the woman who could kill his career with a word. Also, I can’t help but think that Cornwall – or her demise – will come back to bite Lorca before this season is through.
Mudd’s cavalier attitude towards killing is a little off, but overall, Rainn Wilson’s performance feels very much like the Mudd we know and love (to hate). And his knowledge of both the Stamets-Spore Drive connection and Burnham is problematic; but we’re still due for, what? Three more appearances by Mudd in this season? Who knows what changes are in store?
Overall, I liked this episode – it seems like a nice break for what I expect will be a much rougher last half to the season.
Cornwell was in the trailer for next week’s episode, so they’ll be following up on that next week.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
This was my favorite episode of Discovery yet and was the first one that felt “Trek” to me. I’ve been thinking for a while that I could use a step back from the war to learn a little more about our characters and we get that here. There are not enough props for the acting job Anthony Rapp does here- he’s tripping his balls off in the first time, he’s a tender friend/mentor to Burnham, and he outthinks Mudd, and he plays each trip through brilliantly. I remember reading how when they filmed “Parallels” they did small changes to let you know it was a different universe, and Rapp’s acting here makes sure that each loop felt fresh. By no means is this a perfect episode, but it certainly was a fun one.
A few thoughts: this reminded me of something I thought about during “Lower Decks” in TNG- what happens to the other people on the ship besides the 5 or 6 command crew. Well apparently they like to have a wild party- and I have a sense that Lorca is well aware of it and probably approves, given that this is a ship that we’re told in the opening log entry has seen a ton of combat in the last few weeks. We got a sense of it briefly in DS9 in “Behind the Lines” when first Sisko and then Dax give the phaser power cell speech- the acknowledgement that they crew needs a celebration to help pick them up, but this is the first time we have really seen it. My only issue was that at one point the captain calls for yellow alert and the party doesn’t even stop for a minute until it’s canceled.
Also, @2 CLB… two thoughts on the gormagander- it’s possible the “space whale” is equally adapted to both space and atmosphere. While we’ve seen the star-jellies in Farpoint (and later in Titan: Orion’s Hounds), that’s not to say that all Cosmozoans were pure space-occupiers. The tardegrade could exist in space as well as atmosphere, so it’s safe to presume that so could the gormagander. Also, if the crew needed to do something to help the space whale given their endangered status, it’s probably easier to do it in normal gravity as opposed to magnetic boots.
@38/Andrew: I don’t think there was that much of a time jump between episodes, since there was a bit where Burnham (I think) pointed out to another crew member that Tyler was the security chief now, as if that were still new information. And surely it wouldn’t have taken that long for Stamets to come up with a better alternative to getting stabbed by huge needles every time he used the spore drive.
@40/Mike Kelm: True, I did depict one or two species in Orion’s Hounds that could exist in both space and atmosphere, but the way they described the creature’s feeding habits in the episode suggested a purely space-based existence. And it did not sound happy about being laid out on that cold, hard deck. They could’ve lowered the gravity in the shuttlebay to a reasonable compromise level that humans could still work in. (One standard feature of Starfleet shuttlebays in the 24th-century series was one of my favorite bits of Trek signage: CAUTION — VARIABLE GRAVITY AREA.)
In the meantime elsewhere… on The Orville they managed to question in one episode the direct unstructured democracy and the influence of media on judicial system, and in another they studied in dept the atrocities of war. That was pretty intense.
#27 Come on. I loved Take Me Out To The Holosuite.
Any flaws in the finale were due to lousy writing (The Dukat-Wynn garbage), not the lack of another hour or two.
@42/Valentin – The Orville’s “Majority Rules” was a direct rip of Black Mirror’s “Nosedive,” so I’m not sure it’s worth lauding that one, even if a Discovery episode review was the place for it.
@1/princessroxana – I’m curious, you have a lot to say about Discovery, are you actually watching the episodes despite not paying for them, or are you just basing your participation on the reviews and comments here?
@21/CLB – I see it both ways. I really enjoy the slow realization, but I also liked the way Dark Matter did it. I think there can be room for both in time loop stories, which I enjoy generally, too.
@44 Not that I care about The Orville, but I must clear up this misperception that is being bandied about in several places. The Orville episodes are not necessarily being released in the order they were produced. The most recent episode was being written simultaneous to (if not before) the Black Mirror episode. It was written in early 2016. Any similarities are unintentional. Don’t make accusations that cannot be backed up properly. It is irresponsible.
As for the latest Discovery episode:
I really enjoyed it. The crew chemistry (esp. Stamets/Tilly/Michael/Tyler) is really gelling.
Nice to see that endangered species are still protected in the future.
Rainn Wilson has really been good. I find him engaging, if a little too bright for his own good. I have only the barest experience with the previous (TOS) Mudd episodes, so I take others at their word that Rainn’s Mudd is not as congruous as we might hope.
Tyler seems too comfortable already. His whole demeanor is too breezy (the whole “I judge people in the moment” and so forth). It was even said in this ep directly that he’s a little too okay for seven months of alleged sexual/physical torture.
@45 – Fair enough, found the Seth McFarlane tweet referencing it. Still going to cut off Orville conversation there, though, since I’m enjoying the heck outta Trek (oy, I did that) and would love to keep discussing that instead. :)
Apropos of nothing – who is picking these episode titles anyway? Dramatic much? Even melodramatic. And much too long some of them.
I love the episode titles. And last week’s was one word, so it balances out.
@@@@@44, I’m basing all comments on what I read here. I could afford CBS plus or whatever they call it but so far I haven’t felt any desire to watch Discovery for myself. I didn’t bother to see the new Star Wars after somebody spoiled it for me. I didn’t mind that, I LOVE spoilers, but it sounded like a retread of the first three movies and I didn’t feel like going out for that. Spoilers told me the Trek Reboot wasn’t for me either.
@@@@@ MaGnUS, It’s a matter of taste.
What reboot?
The 2009 movie and successors. Isn’t it called a reboot? If not I apologize for the error. But whatever it is I am disenchanted.
Oh, I thought you meant DIS.
The 2009 movie and its sequels are a reboot, I guess. Discovery isn’t.
And this is a franchise that has already given us “For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky,” “Wrongs Darker than Death or Night,” and “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges.” And this title actually comes from Homer, so it’s literary. I don’t see the problem.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@50 – I’m puzzled, then – if you haven’t watched any new Trek since Enterprise, what keeps you coming to participate in these threads?
Curiousity, and I like to hear other people’s opinions of the new show and movies.
I gave up on Enterprise about midway through the second season I think. I was put off by the constant intrusions from the 24th c. like the Ferengi.
@@@@@ 54, So I guess the titles don’t strike anybody else as a bit much.
@55
Some aren’t willing to pay for All Access until Discovery has shaken off its first season bugs, rising above the just okay level to something great and worth paying for up front. At least that’s why I keep reading these reviews. Thanks for writing them by the way, Krad.
57. princessroxana – Count me as one who likes the longer titles.
So we get a nice bit of character building for Burnham and all it cost us was turn Mudd, a comical character, into a mass murderer. And then, since he knows all about the magic mushroom drive and he actually committed crimes in the loop that wasn’t erased, they simply let him go. Apparently deciding that having to live with Stella will be punishment enough. I can’t wait until the reveal that Cyrano Jones is actually a pedophile.
I’m still thinking that this would work better as a parallel to TOS or set after it but before TMP. They could even have had the Klingon war lead into Errand of Mercy. Kirk & company wouldn’t have known about the ‘shroom drive because it was classified, although it seems that there’s lots of people that know about it already.
Why is Stamets not in sickbay? The drive is obviously having all sorts of effects on him. Is it really that much better if the spore drive uses a human volunteer as the critical component? Are they expecting that the ships that eventually se it will keep human/Tardigrade hybrids on standby in case something happens to one of the active ones? Why does everyone seem to find it amusing and not appalling that Stamets seems to be losing touch with reality, at least our reality? Even Culber seems only slightly worried and he’s his partner. McCoy would have had Kirk relieved of command once the symptoms started appearing. Oh I know, “There’s a war on”. Like that excuses everything.
And how did they manage to get Stella and her father there in half an hour? Were they really that close to her? After all, any call that they had sent out in the prior loops would have ben overwritten when time reset itself. So Mudd starts the last run, the crew does their thing (calling Stella, rewiring the chair, etc) and Stella shows up in the time between the end of the last half hour and the walk down to the transporter? Or am I missing something?
While it’s nice to see Burnham getting some characterization and starting to open up, it sure seems that her life sentence is basically going to consist of six months and change. Not too bad for assaulting her captain and committing mutiny.
Also, Tilly doesn’t seem nearly so “special needs” anymore. A bit odd in the interpersonal relationships area but nowhere near enough to justify sticking her off in quarters on her own (at least until Burnham shows up). Maybe they realized that they’d gone too far when she was introduced and are backing off a bit.
@55/MeredithP: I stopped watching after the third episode. I read these threads to learn if things have improved and to learn what changes are being done to my favourite fictional universe. I participate because I enjoy talking about Star Trek and because I enjoy chatting with the people here.
@57/Roxana: I’ve always liked the longer, sometimes poetic TOS titles better than the one-word titles more common in later Trek shows, but I do think that DSC takes it a bit too far at times – “The Butcher’s Knife Cares Not for the Lamb’s Cry”?
Problems I have with DIS so far:
The look which doesn’t update TOS established look but completely disregards it.
Intruding Michael into Spock’s family not because it’s uncanonical, for all he talks about his family Spock could have had a round dozen siblings, but because it’s unnecessary. There are other Vulcans on the planet!
The Klingons. We’ve done Klingons thank you! There are other races!
The war, done this too.
A fallen protagonist who is being rehabilitated unreasonably fast.
Harry Mudd now that’s character assassination!
Crazy Captain Lorca. I know it’s a Trek tradition but not a good one!
And that is why I am not paying for access.
This episode was a disaster. I don’t like the decision to make Mudd into MurderMudd, but my real problem was with the rest of the cast. Why was MurderMudd released so casually? He’s clearly shown the willingness to murder repeatedly and cruelly for personal kicks. Lock him up, preferably for good. But no, they just release him into an unhappy marriage that he can get out of in 10 minutes with a judge? So much for the edgy, thoughtful, modern new Star Trek. TOS put more thought into things than this.
The party scene was honestly painful to witness. I’m not the biggest Michael Burnham fan ever (I think she’s written very inconsistently and that Kira Nerys did Burnham’s intended character type of “good-hearted hothead with a dark side” thing a LOT better), but jesus, this script does her a massive disservice, reducing her into an easily-seduced romance addict who’s consumed with need for a guy she openly admits she’s barely known for 5 minutes. It’s frankly rather sexist and made me pause the episode in disgust and rant for thirty minutes about how much of an idiot I am to keep coming back to this show.
Tilly here is completely unrealistic even in a universe with spaceships and ray guns. Super-studious socially awkward people who get elite postings at tender young ages because they’ve spent their entire lives studying that hard simply are not also party girls. Besides, if Tilly were a man, we all know that she’d be a Sheldon Cooper expy and the nerd equivalent of blackface. So why is she written as a party girl?
Stamets still being on duty when he’s clearly and visibly unhealthy is absurd. For god’s sake, man, you have an infirmary on the ship, GO GET YOURSELF CHECKED OUT. This sort of nonsense is exactly why Enterprise was mocked for sending a sick man onto a damaged Klingon ship in a risky situation.
The time loop was actually the best part of the episode, just because it didn’t involve the characters being idiots and/or intolerably annoying.
tl;dr the episode was a hot mess that completely goes against the show’s stated goal of being a smart new interpretation of the franchise. I’d expect this from Brannon Braga during the peak years of his burnout (early ENT and later VOY), not from a fresh crop of writers, but then again Alex Kurtzman is the showrunner so I guess his aura of terrible is going to spread over everything.
Sure, sure.
I like this one, and I don’t mind the time loop callback. Takes me back to Trek days of yore. I really enjoyed the party, as that Wyclef John song takes me back to my own back in the day. “Love and Happiness” was awesome to hear on Star Trek, and what a perfect song for that moment.
It’s funny to see Lorca all *Yawn* seek out new life? I don’t have time for this crap. Wake me up if a Klingon ship decloaks or something.
And we get real friendships just taking off. I really enjoyed Stamets here, and the story of his and Culber’s first meeting just warms my heart.
The only thing for me is Harry Mudd being a cold-blooded murderer. I mean, it was kinda fun to watch him kill Lorca over and over, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Mudd is a thief, liar, con-man, an overall thorn in the ass, but a murderer? I suppose he did all that knowing the timeline would reset and he wouldn’t have killed anyone, but that’s not the impression I got from Mudd; he seemed to enjoy it too much. Mudd would more likely, I don’t know, prank the whole crew, make them all fall in love with each other, something stupid and inconvenient but fairly harmless. Great to watch, but still jarring.
I’ve been thinking about Mudd’s revenge arc, and — at least by my reading of the story logic — I think the writers have done a reasonable job to this point. Not a perfect one, but a reasonable one. Here’s why:
First, it’s Lorca that’s been making most of the key decisions about Mudd’s fate, and we know by now that Lorca is not operating on all mental cylinders. He’s a damaged man, and his judgment reflects that. Lorca may not want to dirty his hands by killing Mudd personally, but on balance, the immediate galaxy is a safer place for Lorca without Mudd in it. More to the point, Lorca really, really can’t afford to see Mudd get a full and fair trial (to the extent that that’s actually likely while the Federation/Klingon war is on), because Mudd does indeed have too much dirt on Lorca to be allowed to live, and Mudd would absolutely make that dirt public. (Imagine Sam Cogley as Mudd’s attorney here….)
Thus the practical thing to do, from Lorca’s POV, is to let the Klingons keep (and kill) Mudd after their first encounter. And in the wake of the time-loop confrontation? My reading of this is that Lorca, as captain, has to have pushed the “leave him to Stella and her father” choice on the rest of the team — this being one of the many conversations we didn’t see (and perhaps should have) in the course of the last time-loop. Here, I think Lorca makes a critical but understandable miscalculation: he fully expects Dad-the-arms-dealer to have Mudd quietly killed as soon as he conveniently can after the family’s departure, based on Dad’s criminal reputation — or at least to keep him on a really, really short leash. Again, the last thing Lorca needs or wants is a public trial…and from an intelligence standpoint, it’s likewise not in Starfleet’s interest to publicize what Mudd managed to do to one of their most advanced starships. That’s a position Lorca can reasonably sell to his senior officers (plus Michael), based on the need to keep the rest of Discovery’s arsenal under Top Secret classification.
As matters turn out, it is of course a wrong decision — there’s just enough rogue in Stella’s father that he sees Mudd as someone he can use (in multiple senses of that word), and that will give Mudd enough leeway to slip free once again. But the decision is wrong in interesting ways, and ways that are likely to help move both Mudd’s and Lorca’s arcs along as the season progresses. If there’s a flaw here, it’s that the writing doesn’t quite lay enough groundwork onscreen for the underlying logic.
Now let’s look at Mudd’s “murder spree” during the time-loops.
Several of us have commented that the long string of Lorca-murders comes across as (inappropriately) funny. I think that’s actually exactly why it’s consistent with Mudd’s previously established character — because Mudd thinks so too, and he knows perfectly well that none of the “murders” he’s committing during the time loops will actually stick. He’s not a sociopath or serial killer; he’s focused on a very specific revenge against an individual, he’s playing that tune for everything it’s worth — and he’s playing it for as much entertainment value as he possibly can while he’s at it. This is totally consistent with the more-is-funnier approach we see much later/earlier in “I, Mudd” — why make 20 androids when you can have 500? Yes, Mudd is willing to threaten, and bluster, and do some serious collateral damage in the process, but he really only sacrifices his gamepieces when he feels it’s absolutely necessary, and he does agree to spare the crew with very little argument when push comes to shove. I don’t doubt that he’d kill Lorca for good given sufficient means and opportunity — but Lorca’s given him good reason to be that ticked off.
As to Mudd’s supposed knowledge of the spore drive and his time-travel tech — the ending of this episode shows him losing the time-travel gadget with no reasonable way to create another (assuming he built the thing himself in the first place, which strikes me as unlikely in the extreme). As for the spore drive? He certainly won’t be leaving Discovery with any tech specs, and without those, any spiel he tries to unfold — including the literal truth — will sound like the tallest of tall tales. Not that Lorca thinks that Dad-the-arms-dealer is going to let Mudd live long enough to make that pitch, of course, but again — that’s the kind of character-driven mistake that’s designed to lead into the next stage of the Mudd/Lorca arc.
@64/Dante: Mudd didn’t know the timeline would reset when he killed Tyler with that dark matter pellet. He thought that was the last loop. Burnham had to force him to reset it again. That was an extremely brutal murder that he committed with the expectation that it would be permanent.
66. ChristopherLBennett, but again, it was one of the people who left him on the Klingon prison ship. I’m trying to justify Mudd’s actions, but he has just as much reason to hate Ash as he does Lorca.
@65 – John: What dirt does Mudd have on Lorca? That he left him on the Klingon prison? And like you say, they wouldn’t make any of this public if he handed him in to Starfleet, there’s a war going on. I understand those that complain about giving away Mudd to an arms dealer and not to Starfleet; I know why it bothers them… I just don’t care, because it was fun.
68. MaGnUs I think they are referring to Lorca’s revelation about killing his previous crew. I’ve seen a lot of people in the fan community assume that he kept that detail from Starfleet.
@65/John C. Bunnell: “Lorca […] can’t afford to see Mudd get a full and fair trial (to the extent that that’s actually likely while the Federation/Klingon war is on)” – I hope that the Federation judicial system doesn’t break down as soon as there’s a war on.
Hmm… Starfleet knows the Buran was destroyed and he was the only survivor. Why would anything Mudd, a criminal, say would count?
@71 / MaGnUs: Starfleet may not take anything Mudd says seriously, but this whole incident would bring Starfleet’s attention back to Discovery’s crew and operation and Lorca really doesn’t want the renewed scrutiny. Better to sweep it under the rug and say nothing to Starfleet at all.
#68: As has been noted, there’s Lorca’s own statement about killing the crew of the Buran, which need only get as far as higher Starfleet authority to trigger a lot of deeper inquiry into Lorca’s activities. Also, even if Mudd doesn’t walk away from Discovery after the time-loop episode with any tech specs, he has done more than enough poking into ship’s records — and seen more than enough just by hanging out in the right places — to know a great deal about just how far outside his supposed assignment parameters Lorca has been ranging. To some extent, it’s not even how much Mudd actually knows as it is how much Lorca thinks he might know. (Note here that one of my other theories is that Lorca is operating in significant part under orders from Starfleet Intelligence — though not, I think, Section 31 — and that for that reason, he really can’t afford to draw too much attention from mainline Starfleet command authority. Which he would draw in spades by turning Mudd over to same….)
#70: We’ve seen vanishingly little of the civilian justice system(s) in place in the Federation — as opposed to its client worlds — over the life of the franchise. But that assumes Mudd gets that far back into civilization, about which I have my doubts. What I’m thinking here is that, given that a lot of what Discovery is up to has to be pretty highly classified for security reasons, turning Mudd over to whatever is passing for Starfleet’s security/intelligence apparatus at this point would at the very best get him dropped into the darkest corner of the Federation equivalent of Guantanamo Bay for the duration of the conflict. At which point one of two things happens: Lorca (being Lorca, and currently paranoid as h*ll) quietly arranges to have him disposed of permanently, or Mudd (being Mudd) quietly escapes. [There is a theoretical Option Three, in which Mudd somehow manages to pass his story along in a way that gets out into the political side of the intelligence/diplomatic community, and thereby precipitates an epic scandal — but (a) this is the wrong kind of TV series for that to happen, and (b) I think it would be awfully hard to do that story in a way that would fit easily into existing mainline Trek continuity.
@73, I don’t think continuity is actually a priority.
#74: On a micro-level, probably not. In general, though, they’ve done a decent job to date of paying attention to character-based continuity (see particularly the treatment of Sarek, and note my observation above about how the “more-is-funnier” aspects of this episode feel like a nod to the same shtick from “I, Mudd”).
Again, though, I think the main reason we won’t see a “Mudd causes a major political scandal” storyline on Discovery is that that simply isn’t a story that these writers and this series want to tell.
Continuity is most definitely a factor, and they’re doing a great job there.
@72 – Andrew: Lorca is already under intense scrutiny.
@73/John C. Bunnell: I really hope that they don’t have anything resembling Guantanamo Bay. But I guess your point is that they wouldn’t transfer Mudd to civilian authorities because of the military secrets he has learned, and that’s probably true.
Continuity is a factor to the same degree it was in TOS, where James Kirk had two middle initials, Spock was either a Vulcanian or a Vulcan, the ship was powered by lithium crystals or dilithium, it operated under UESPA or Starfleet, etc. The nitpicky details of continuity have always been mutable.
I agree the continuity was always mutable in TOS. There is an interesting idea regarding Admiral Cornwall on Youtube (it’s a little over 3 minutes). Would love to know what anyone thinks of this as a possibility keeping in mind that Garth was a shape shifter perhaps Lorca is Garth and Cornwall Lethe:
@79/AWalt: Garth was not yet a shapeshifter at the time of this series. “Whom Gods Destroy” implies that the events that gave him those abilities and drove him mad took place fairly recently as of the episode, which takes place a dozen years in Discovery‘s future.
And Lethe? You mean the inmate from “Dagger of the Mind?” Don’t tell me someone online is claiming the episode title “Lethe” is a reference to that character. Lethe is the river of forgetfulness/oblivion in the Greek underworld. The “Dagger” character was called that as a mythological allusion because her memory had been wiped by Dr. Adams; the episode was no doubt called that because it involved a memory that Sarek wanted to be lost to oblivion.
80. ChristopherLBennett, you shouldn’t be surprised by any whack@@@@@$$ fan theories out there. I checked out of those when I saw someone insisting that Voq is Lorca, never mind that the timing completely doesn’t work for this. At least less and less people are insisting that this is set in the Mirror Universe…
But a lot of people still insist it’s the Kelvinverse…
82. MaGnUs Those are the people that can’t understand that the reason they look similar is that DSC is produced in 2017, not 1966, not 1987. Of course its going to look more modern. That is just a silly nitpick to me.
79 & 80. ChristopherLBennett – Or now when Mudd was a rouge, a conman and a swindler and now he’s a mass murderer. Hardly any difference at all.
And while it maye have been implied in WGD that Garth recieved his abilities fairly recently, it can be just as likely that he spent a significant amount of time on Antos IV and was just recently rescued and sent to Elba II.
And it’s not like they’ve not changed some things already. McCoy obviously had no idea about tribbles and had to do his own research on them instead of just looking them up in the computer. Lorca’s got one on his desk.
According to Spock, there was nothing more than rumours of someone out beyond Cestus III. Lorca’s got a Gorn skeleton.
Spock was amazed at the Romulan cloaking device, saying that such a thing was only theoretical. The crew of the Shenzhou watched as an invisible ship plowed into the Europa. And Enterprise showed us cloaking tech a hundred years earlier.
Changing the back story of Garth would be insignificant compared to these due to the very limited detail we were given.
Not saying it’s probable but it’s certainly still within the realm of possibility.
@83 – Jason: They don’t care, they just want to complain and banish DIS from the prime canon.
No, it is not a silly nitpick. Everything about DIS’s look is completely unlike the established look of TOS. The Cage is contemporary more it less, the crew of the Discovery should be wearing color coded tunics not embellished blues. The ship too could have been updated without violating the feel of the TOS ships. They Just Don’t Care about continuity. Fine, I can live with that but don’t tell me it doesn’t matter!
Also I can and will reject anything I like from my personal Canon.
Discovery doesn’t take place in the Kelvinverse. It takes place in the Kurtzmanverse, a universe where Alex Kurtzman really, really wants to be JJ Abrams.
@86 – princessroxana: Your personal canon, sure. But you’re not saying that DIS is set in the Kelvinverse, are you? Are you denying (against everything being said by the people who get to make the decision) that it’s set in the Prime continuity?
You’re just clinging to the idea that aesthetics = continuity, when it’s not. Also, there is nothing that says that ALL of Starfleet at the time of The Cage wore the same uniforms. Different divisions/units in military organizations wear different uniforms, it happens constantly. I was recently at an exhibition by my country’s navy, and saw about ten different kinds of uniforms, all in one place.
As for actual continuity, they’re building upon and within it, expanding it. Just because you can’t deal with new material that isn’t specifically tailored to your wishes and likes, it doesn’t mean that they have to paint by the numbers and rehash everything that was done in previous shows.
I do not deny the franchise holders right to do whatever they want with their product but I don’t have to like it, and I don’t. All this nonsense is so unnecessary, they didn’t have to make DIS a prequel, or any of their other questionable decisions.
And if they say this is the Prime Universe of course it is.
Sorry about the double post.
And aesthetics are too continuity. Go ahead and discard it if you wish but don’t pretend that’s not what you’re doing!
91, I might not say “continuity” but I agree with you in spirit, it sorta bugs me, even if I know the reasons for it.
@91/roxana: Continuity is always subject to change, including aesthetic continuity. Lithium crystals became dilithium. Data had emotions until he didn’t and used contractions until he didn’t. Klingons had smooth heads and then had ridges; Andorians had antennae on the rear of their heads and then on the front of their heads. Worf had a totally different forehead in season 1 of TNG than he had for the rest of the franchise.
This is the thing about fiction that some fans don’t seem to want to acknowledge — it’s all just made up. It’s a bunch of colorful lies that are being spun to entertain people. And that means it doesn’t have an absolutely perfect, unified continuity. It can do its best to create the illusion of one, but that’s hard to do if you’re putting out an ongoing series, because that’s always gonna be a work in progress and subject to all the changes that come with that. So the audience has to do their part too. They have to be willing to play along with the make-believe, to pretend it fits together even when it doesn’t.
Isn’t the war the biggest canon alteration? After changing the 23rd century at its core like that, do aesthetics really matter?
@93: The problem isn’t the AUDIENCE not doing their part, IMHO. As you’ve demonstrated, we’re more than happy to let little things slide. We’ll even give the occasional big ‘gimmie’ like Klingons not looking perfectly human, or Trill design changes (the minor changes in head structure or Andorian antenna placement has always fallen into the category of minor refinement), sometimes with the understanding that they may address it in the future (and they did, with the Klingons), sometimes using our own private headcanons (like there being two different Trill ‘racial types’, and Odan is one of the bumpy-forehead minority). We’re especially willing to do this if they’re improvements or there’s an obvious need for why it needs to be done, but we do it for mistakes just as easily.
The problem is when the CREATIVE TEAM decides to use that as carte blanche to stop caring, to make any change they want or make ridiculous continuity implants just because that happens to be the story they want to tell (even when it seems pretty easy to work within established canon). “Klingons are all bald space orcs now? Why? We think it looks cooler! (It doesn’t.)” “Hey, let’s give Spock an human adopted sister we never heard about before! Brilliant character design! (It isn’t.)” “You know, let’s have routine communication be done via holograms, despite every other show NOT using that until DS9 where it was a new thing, it’ll really add something to the show. (It doesn’t.)” “Hey, even though Mudd attempted to betray the entire Federation to the Klingons and steal a Federation starship and knows many secrets of a top secret technology, let’s just send him off with his wife, that makes sense. (It doesn’t.)”
It wouldn’t be so bad if they just said “hey, we’re doing a different interpretation, don’t expect complete adherence to canon, make your own theories as to why.” No, they insist in promotional materials that they’re the exact same continuity from the previous stuff. They’re cravenly attempting to trade on the continuity without respecting it or the often more disciplined writers before who built it. That ticks some fans, like me, off.
You want to update the aesthetics? Fine. As long as you update your storytelling skills and attention to detail as well. And they haven’t held up that part of the deal, and that’s a problem for me and for the show in general, I feel.
And, to a certain extent, the problem is when a large segment of the audience doesn’t challenge these decisions, or excuse it with the especially lazy “Well the original series made continuity errors all the time too” line. Because that encourages them to do it, and make more crap in the future.
@94/Jana: I’d call it a canon addition. It does conflict with a couple of lines of dialogue in “The Infinite Vulcan” and The Wrath of Khan about the Federation being at peace for a century, but there are plenty of other contradictory lines of dialogue in past canon. Indeed, “Whom Gods Destroy” makes the opposite implication, that the era of peace the Federation enjoys is fairly recent. Trek canon has never been a perfectly consistent thing. It’s been undergoing “alterations” for 51 years now.
@93 CLB, you misunderstand me. If the writers of DIS want to throw the old continuity in the trash that’s their choice. Just don’t pretend that’s not what they’re doing!
@97/roxana: And don’t you pretend that Trek continuity has been perfectly consistent up to now. It’s always been a self-contradictory mess — that’s the point. And I’m sick of the dishonesty of Trek purists who scream about the inconsistencies in the newest show as if it were something Star Trek had never done before. It happened with Enterprise and with the Kelvin movies, it happened before then with the original movies and TNG, and it’s become a hollow cliche by this point.
@96/Christopher: I liked the century of peace. It’s part of what made Star Trek special. I guess I could live with a small war that doesn’t affect everyday life all that much, but one of the prisoners in “Context is for Kings” claimed that it had brought back hunger and want, and that makes it sound more like a huge cataclysm. A decade before TOS! I find that hard to accept.
CLB, I don’t. But I do see a difference between minor adjustments and major shifts. And btw I hated it with ENT, that’s why I stopped watching. It’s also why I gave the new movies a miss.
Trek purism is funny because, yeah, it’s fiction. To want something produced in 2017 to look like 1964 is laughable, and why would anyone want that? As has been said, every show is a product of its time, and it would incredibly disappointing if they had attempted to make this look like “The Cage.” I mean, the monochromatic colors for the departments? That’s all you need. As far as the tech? Holography and so forth? Androids? Again, 2017. “Oh, they have this, they didn’t have that!” 2017. Don’t care
The problem that I have with a lot of the ret-cons is that they make Spock look much less intelligent. Cloaking devices theoretical? Nope, Earth has known about them for at least a century and even the Klingons had one a decade ago. For one example.
At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Prime Directive ret-coned into something along the lines of “We have the duty to see that the “younger” races grow up following directives that WE find acceptable”.
@99/Jana: You have a point, but we went through the same thing with TNG. The first couple of seasons showed a Starfleet accustomed to being a peacetime research organization. The ships looked like luxury liners, they had families and kids aboard, they avoided combat except as a last resort, and when it became necessary to use deadly force in “Conspiracy,” Picard’s closing log entry said “How difficult, after all these years of learning to respect life, to be forced to destroy it,” as if lethal combat were something he’d rarely if ever had to face before. And yet, in the early fourth season, “The Wounded” established that the Federation had been at war with the Cardassians until just a year before. Meaning that there was supposedly a war going on throughout those whole first couple of seasons where everything seemed so peaceful.
Granted, my preferred way of looking at it is that it was like the Korean War post-1953, a technical, legal state of war persisting between two powers that were no longer actually fighting. But it was still a major retcon on the producers’ part, a deliberate revision of what previous Trek had established about the political and military status quo in a given era.
Indeed, I’d say the TNG retcon was more massive, because it posited an ongoing state of war, or at least cold war, during the time frame of onscreen stories that originally presumed the exact opposite. In this case, there’s a decade between the war and TOS, which is plenty of time for things to recover. Also, we saw relatively little of the Federation in TOS, since the ship was out on the frontier (and of course it took a while before they even invented the Federation). The era was vaguely enough drawn that we don’t know the UFP wasn’t recovering from a war. And there are aspects of TOS consistent with it. Kirk tended to see himself as a soldier first and a diplomat second, which is consistent with someone who would’ve been a junior officer just a couple of years out of the Academy at the time of the war. Starfleet was eager to put the M-5 computer through war games. And hostility with the Klingons was clearly not unprecedented. Chekov may have imagined his brother Piotr, but no one questioned the reality of the colony attack where he claimed Piotr was killed, which implies it really happened. It could’ve been during the “Errand of Mercy” war, but it could’ve been in this one too.
101, wait, wait, don’t you mean it should look like 2264?
103, don’t leave out the Ferengi, who went through a severe change in the story itself.
@104/LordVorless: I wouldn’t say the Ferengi went through a severe change. It’s just that the focus of the storytelling shifted from military characters to civilian/business characters. Other than that, we just got some refinements in their presentation, like their “alien” body language in “The Last Outpost” being dropped along with their energy whips. There wasn’t any change in their later portrayals that contradicted the intent of their early portrayals — they continued to be a civilization primarily concerned with profit, greed, and acquisition. Indeed, it makes sense that Starfleet would encounter their spacegoing military first and only later encounter their businesspeople, scientists, and so forth as contact expanded.
@104/LordVorless: It should look like 2256.
@106/Jana: But the point is, a 2017 version of the 2250s shouldn’t look exactly like a 1964 version of the 2250s. They did the best they could to approximate a futuristic environment using 1960s TV resources, but we have the resources to do a better approximation today. I do wish there were more similarities of design, at least some recognizable aesthetic elements, but it’s only right to update the tech.
I’m not crazy about the recent trend to give bridges windows instead of viewscreens, though. A window doesn’t make much sense. It’s less effective as radiation shielding than a thick, opaque wall. And there really wouldn’t be very much you could see out of it. If the interior were well enough lit to let people do their jobs, you couldn’t see the stars through the window anyway; you’d just see the bridge being reflected back at you. And most things in space would be way too far away to see with the naked eye. The only time there’d be anything to see is when you’re in orbit of a planet, moon, or asteroid, or docking with another ship or station.
@107/Christopher: Oh, I was only joking. I don’t like the “Cage” design much – too drab – so I’m actually fine with changing it. I prefer the old uniforms because they looked more comfortable and less militaristic. But then, militaristic is what the new writers are going for, so I can see why they changed them, even if I don’t approve.
And there are some recognisable aesthetic elements. The yellow data disk in “Context is for Kings” is an example, or the minidress worn by one of the women at the party.
105, that might fly, if it wasn’t recognized as a production problem, they knew the Ferengi weren’t working as an intended nemesis, and had to alter the situation. Even the actors were in on it, because they knew it was a flop.
106, ah right! That means more smoking, right?
107, that’s the thing, doing things with the capability of 2017 effects is one thing, but it’s easy to pass the line into an aesthetic change that rubs folks the wrong way. Sometimes you have to keep the yellow spandex.
@109/LordVorless: I’m not saying they didn’t change their approach with the Ferengi. Obviously they did. But that’s a real-world change. My point is that it doesn’t create an in-story contradiction the way the retconned Cardassian war did. We were told that Starfleet was a peacetime service in TNG’s first couple of seasons, and then we were told that the Federation had been at war that entire time. That doesn’t make any damn sense, unless it was a cold war, and even then it’s a stretch. The change in the Ferengi was merely a shift in emphasis and doesn’t create anywhere near as massive a continuity snarl.
And any aesthetic change is going to rub some folks the wrong way. And making no aesthetic change would rub other folks the wrong way. One thing you have to learn if you’re going to be a creator — everything you can possibly do will offend somebody. So you can’t worry about who you might offend. You just have to do what feels right to you.
Personally, I don’t much care for how radically DSC’s look departs from previous Trek. But my personal opinion doesn’t dictate other people’s choices. They’re the ones creating the show, not me, so they have a right to make choices I don’t agree with.
CLB, I agree completely with your last point. Writers and designers have the right to do as they please. As a viewer however I have the right to disapprove and then to either shrug it off or stop watching. Or in my case not even start.
@108, Ai think the DIS uniforms are very nice but all that metal embellishment might be more appropriate for dress uniforms. IMO ENT type blue jump suits over shirts in the traditional colors would have been a nice transitional look suggesting before TOS. But the designers didn’t agree.
@111/Roxana: Now that you say it, they do have some similarity with the TOS dress uniforms, including the uncomfortable collars McCoy complained about in “Journey to Babel”.
110, I would agree, they didn’t create a continuity snarl, they totally ignored continuity, and walked boldly forward, the same way your average Soap Opera can recast a part, even if it ages (or youthens), a particular character. It wasn’t an evolution, it wasn’t a development, which might have been done in some interesting fashion (and even somewhat explainable using your version), it was just a change. You’re basically dignifying it by providing a justification that doesn’t apply either.
The rest, well, the thing about choices is, you do have to worry about who you might offend, or otherwise satisfy, at least when trying to make a product for consumption, or even just public exposure. The rest of us can choose what we want as well. To put it another way, and I hope you understand the reference, neither am I George RR Martin’s.
This was also in a conversation I was in the other day, with certain stores and restaurants that were suffering from bankruptcy and downturns, a lot of the blame was attributed to changes being made, among other things, that turned off their core market.
@113/LordVorless: I don’t understand why you think the shift in emphasis in the Ferengi represents a continuity alteration. Like I said, obviously any society is going to have both military people and civilian businesspeople at the same time, and it makes perfect sense that the Federation’s earliest contacts with the Ferengi would be with their military, with more civilian contacts happening as the two civilizations get to know each other better. It actually fits together pretty smoothly, aside from cosmetic changes like dropping the crouched posture of the “Last Outpost” Ferengi. There was no contradiction, just a decision that the Ferengi would work better as comic foils than serious military antagonists.
The Cardassian war retcon is a more massive change because it alters the whole nature of the Federation and Starfleet in the first two seasons of TNG. Roddenberry very much wanted to show a peaceful version of Starfleet, a service that had outgrown militarism and become dedicated to science and diplomacy above all. Suddenly revealing that they were at war that whole time is a huge, huge realignment of the entire premise of the series. It makes a lot of aspects of early TNG retroactively nonsensical. Like in “Peak Performance” where Picard objected to the idea of war games because Starfleet’s purpose was exploration. But according to “The Wounded,” implicitly, Picard was saying that while his own government was in the tail end of a war with another major power. It just doesn’t fit. It’s a far more massive retcon than most people realize.
@114/Christopher: I think it’s easy to ignore because it’s only one episode. I even missed it when TNG was new, and only got to know the Cardassians in subsequent episodes where they seemed to be a similar kind of antagonists as the Romulans.
@115/Jana: That’s just it — it’s not just one episode. “The Wounded”‘s revelation that the Federation was at war up until a year before — and all the subsequent episodes that built on that backstory of conflict with the Cardassians — contradicts the entire first two seasons’ portrayal of a peacetime Starfleet and a Federation that considered itself to have grown beyond war. Yes, it is easy to overlook — I missed it myself at first — but once I realized the contradiction and thought through the ramifications, I recognized what a massive reinterpretation of the universe it was.
The way I reconciled it in my books — notably The Buried Age — was to draw on an idea from Poul Anderson’s Terran Empire series and take recourse in the fact that the Federation is huge. In a nation with hundreds of entire planets belonging to it, a war could be massive enough to affect multiple worlds along one border, yet still be seen as a minor, remote problem from the perspective of people elsewhere in that vast, sprawling metacivilization. Like a tree so vast that a blight that’s killing one part of it can have no impact on the rest.
And to get back to the analogy with the war in Discovery, the idea that the Federation was at peace for a century before TOS comes from only one episode (“The Infinite Vulcan”) and one movie (TWOK). And the revelation of a war a decade before TOS doesn’t change anything about what was going on during TOS, and actually fits well with certain things like Kirk’s soldier mentality and the general portrayal of heated UFP-Klingon tensions. So this retcon is a lot easier to reconcile than the Cardassian War retcon.
@116/Christopher: I don’t know TNG nearly as good as TOS, so if you say that it’s not just one episode, I take your word for it.
Actually, during my recent TNG rewatch I noticed for the first time how much war there was in the 24th century. The Borg war, the Klingon civil war, the Cardassian war… It was sobering. I love TOS, especially first season TOS, for its many stories about how to avoid a war, and I had always taken for granted that TNG was like that, too. Well – I shrugged and figured that I was first and foremost a TOS fan, and that was that.
I guess that’s why I feel so strongly about DSC. It may be easy to reconcile, but I’m not really worried about continuity; I’m worried about philosophy. According to DSC, humanity has never outgrown warfare. The bright future of TOS is no more than the interstellar equivalent of 1955 Europe. I find that sad.
@117/Jana: The idea was always that humanity had outgrown warfare within itself — nation against nation, race against race. TOS never claimed that humans were immune to attack by other species. That idea actually came up a lot in TOS right from the start:
“Balance of Terror”: Established an Earth-Romulan war a century earlier, shows a new war barely averted.
“Arena”: Shows war with the Gorn being barely averted.
“A Taste of Armageddon”: Shows the Enterprise becoming a target in an alien war.
“Errand of Mercy”: Shows war actually breaking out with the Klingons and only being stopped by alien intervention.
With the exception of “The Corbomite Maneuver,” every first-season episode depicting an interaction between humanity and a currently active, spacegoing nonhuman state (as opposed to a moribund or dead race or a godlike superrace) is about a potential or actual state of war. After that, we mainly got ongoing cold-war situations with the Klingons and Romulans, but note that “Journey to Babel” implied that interplanetary war between Federation members could break out if the Coridan talks broke down.
So TOS hardly shied away from war as a story theme. Yes, their episodes focused more on the wars being avoided, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that TV back then was strictly episodic and so any potential war had to be averted or resolved by the end of the hour, unless it was a cold war with a recurring baddie.
@118/Christopher: I didn’t mean to say that TOS shied away from war as a story theme, on the contrary. I meant to say that all the war stories, except for “A Private Little War”, were anti-war stories, they were all message episodes, and they were all stories about how to avoid a war. I don’t think the reason was that TV was episodic back then. I think the reason was that the writers had witnessed a war and wanted to tell pacifistic stories.
114, Because the people involved in the production outright stated it for what it was, that it was effectively a continuity excisement. They realized the Ferengi weren’t working as desired, dropped them, came back with the altered version and the old Feregni were as wiped from existence as Chuck Cunningham.
You can try to fit the pieces together if you want, but I’ll still point out to you what they really did. Just like I’ll point out that Armin Tamzarian is not the real Seymour Skinner.
@119/Jana: I don’t think any of the war stories we got in later Trek were pro-war. Any honest war story is an anti-war story. It’s by showing the horrors and moral compromises of war that you speak out against it. I do agree that later Trek has really overdone war as a story device, but I don’t see a real philosophical difference.
@121/Christopher: That’s true, none of them were pro-war. But they didn’t avoid war like the TOS stories, and some of them felt like war for entertainment value to me – “The Best of Both Worlds” and “Redemption”, mostly. Perhaps I’m wrong.
As Francois Truffaut implied, making a good anti-war story is hard.
Didn’t they bring back some of the ‘old Ferengi’ in their Enterprise episode? I seem to remember seeing the laser whips and fur coats again. Though I don’t think they were as twitchy. I just assumed the Ferengi in Last Outpost were on drugs.
As for war, yes, it’s difficult to make a pure anti-war story. War looks too damn exciting on screen. It’s high drama and adventure, and often a simple and effective way to tell morality tales. Of course Star Trek is going to use it from time to time.
@124/Hal: In theory, I like the idea of using body language to make an alien species seem more exotic. But I suppose it’s a tricky thing to sustain with a recurring species, when you can’t ensure that every actor you cast will be a trained dancer or acrobat who could pull that sort of thing off effectively.
125, and even putting them under a silver-painted shower curtain may not help.
#125 —But since the Ferengi were conceived as a commentary on ultra capitalism, it kind of fits that in their first appearance they’re coked out of their minds like ’80s Wall Street goons. :) I don’t know, I enjoyed the weirdness. But you’re right, it would be tiresome to see them behave that way over the long stretch.
@118 – “A Taste of Armageddon” – Shows the Federation ignoring their supposed highest law and then threatening genocide to save their own skins.
Fixed that for you.
And Corbomite could be viewed as the Federation willing to go to war for the sake of exploration. The buoy made it quite clear tha it meant “Keep Outl yet Kirk blasted it and continued because humanity, has the right to go wherever it darn well pleases. They’ve just lucky that Balok fell for their bluff and was willing to take a chance on them. Otherwise, why send away the Fesarius? It was just as likely that he’d find them dangerous and destroy them. But we know that won’t happen because Kirk is supposedly the hero, regardless of his actions
I’ve been working on my MA thesis quite a bit recently, but came back to check in on this thread before tonight’s episode. My, y’all are a chatty bunch! :)
128, I’m trying to remember the recounting of the “crimes” of Kirk and his violations of the Prime Directive, the Temporal Prime Directive, and the Starfleet Academy Ethical Code. Seriously, cheating on the Kobayashi Maru scenario? I’m surprised he didn’t blow up the Klingon homeworld while he was at it.
A point that should perhaps be noted in light of all the discussions about continuity, particularly with the original series: for all that organized/active old-line fandom has been an enormous influence on Star Trek‘s success over the decades, CBS is not making Discovery for us.
In absolute terms, those of us who grew up on TOS (and nowadays, probably even those who grew up on TNG) — and more particularly, the subset of the original TOS/TNG audience that got involved in organized and online fandom — is comparatively small. This tends to be overlooked nowadays, particularly now that we’re living in an era where SF/fantasy has essentially won the media war and has become one of the most commercially dominant genres in the storytelling marketplace. The great majority of the audience that goes to see an MCU movie or follows The Orville or buys Harry Potter books isn’t made up of continuity hounds, convention-goers, and blogosphere regulars. A whole lot of them are a lot younger than most of us (I believe it’s known as the 18-34 demographic), and even a whole lot of the older ones have never been to a convention, dressed up as a Klingon, or (very likely) even bought a Star Trek novel.
This absolutely does not mean that old-line and organized fandom is wholly without influence (or respect) in Hollywood. As we’ve seen, some of the people who are now running SF shows are themselves old-line fans. (Note that simply being an old-line fan doesn’t mean that someone agrees with either past or current fannish consensus on various points of continuity — or even the value of continuity itself.) But it does mean that any new Star Trek series can’t be designed purely — or even primarily — for hard-core fans of any of the prior incarnations of the franchise. Discovery has to be a commercial success in and of itself, and as such, it’s being made for today’s television audience, whose experiences and expectations for a new TV series aren’t necessarily what ours are.
Is Discovery the series I would’ve made? Definitely not. (That said, one of the three or four ideas I’ve had in my head for possible new shows is/was a series centered on Sarek & Amanda; one of the others would have been post-DS9, whereas one could have been placed at any of several points in the overall timeline.) But it’s a series I can watch, and kibitz about, and one whose creative choices I can respect even if I wouldn’t have made them myself.
And I don’t think they’ve done anything so outrageous to overall continuity that we can’t play the Sherlockian-inspired game of working out how the seeming errors in aired continuity actually can be worked out by the application of sufficient creative thinking.
@130/LordVorless: It’s a myth that Kirk violated the Prime Directive. As a captain in the field in an era when consulting Starfleet Command was not always easy and captains were expected to be the ones making policy decisions for themselves, Kirk acted on his responsibility to interpret the Prime Directive and how it should apply in each situation. And he rarely, if ever, chose to initiate an unprovoked act of interference; rather, he acted to counteract existing sources of interference or artificial constraint upon societies’ natural development. That may seem like a violation by the absurdly strict 24th-century take on the Prime Directive, but it’s entirely in keeping with how TOS defined it. The idea that Kirk went around blithely violating Starfleet’s highest law is one of the most erroneous modern misinterpretations of TOS.
There are only a couple of borderline cases. “A Taste of Armageddon” is one, but arguably the Directive didn’t apply there because the Eminians had declared the intention to destroy the Enterprise, which would’ve constituted an act of war and justified Kirk in taking whatever defensive action was necessary to protect his crew and neutralize the enemy’s ability to do harm. The other is “Friday’s Child,” where he saved Eleen against her own wishes and her people’s customs. Perhaps he saw that as countering Klingon interference, but Maab’s coup might have happened even without Kras’s support, so it’s hard to say.
As for the “Temporal Prime Directive,” that concept did not exist in TOS. It was first mentioned in TNG. Remember, “The Naked Time” treated time travel as something no Starfleet vessel had ever achieved (which is exactly my problem with the characters’ casual attitude toward Mudd’s “time crystal” in the DSC episode this thread is nominally about). So Kirk and his crew were pioneering the practice. There wouldn’t have been any temporal laws in place to violate yet.
As for Starfleet Academy, TWOK may have created the impression of Kirk as a renegade cadet, but that conflicts with “Where No Man Has Gone Before” and “Shore Leave,” which painted Kirk as a very serious, studious, by-the-book cadet, “a stack of books with legs” and “positively grim.”
@131/John C. Bunnell: “And I don’t think they’ve done anything so outrageous to overall continuity that we can’t play the Sherlockian-inspired game of working out how the seeming errors in aired continuity actually can be worked out by the application of sufficient creative thinking.”
Very well said. That kind of creative exercise has been a large part of Trek fandom and fan/tie-in fiction from the beginning. TOS had plenty of continuity errors and holes which kept the fans busy trying to rationalize and reconcile them, and so has everything since. That’s helped increase fans’ investment in the franchise, because they’re actually applying their own creativity and effort to it and that lets them feel more like a part of it.
I suspect that a perfectly consistent fictional universe with no holes to patch or questions to theorize about would have a relatively tepid fan following, despite many fans’ belief that that’s what they want. It would be a far more passive experience for the audience.
131, That gets us into a separate problem, the decision-making process of the various broadcasting entities, which is regularly spoofed in a variety of works, from the Simpsons and Futurama, to This is Us and Dinosaurs, and even as far back as the original Trek itself, depending on how you interpret Bread and Circuses.
As far as that goes, I’m just not sure the show is going to be all that satisfying, and it may be another in the long list of nearly forgotten SF shows, with only the connection of Trek keeping it anywhere near remembered. We certainly didn’t get to watch Firefly for any length of time. And I’m even less sure about the release plan, I don’t know if it’ll work for CBS like it did for Netflix.
132, sure, Kirk keeps getting away with pretty blatant violations, he’s the Golden Boy who can do no wrong. I’m still trying to think of where I saw that recounting of his activities, it’s just escaping me. Maybe something like Cracked? I thought it was hilarious myself.
Anyway, it’s been treated as both an inviolable law, and a flexible one, which if it were intended, would reflect more accurately on our own system, but I think it’s mostly a result of wanting to have a high ideal, but not really working out for the stories they wanted to tell.
As for Kirk, it would take a lot of studying to hack the Academy computers, I’d hope. Maybe not, they do seem to have a lot of computer problems. Still, the problem is him actually rigging the scenario to win? While, he was brazenly honest in his intent, I’m not sure it is a good thing.
But time travel is something that also shows the lack of consistency in the show, as in Assignment Earth, Time Travel was almost a routine.
In terms of consistency, sure, you can get a lot of mileage and discussion out of resolving various plot holes and ambiguities, but sometimes they can be grating by their mere existence. Sometimes even worse when it’s a resolvable issue that was created because they just didn’t care.
And even when we have in-story explanations, they do often cover over the real world limitations and decisions, sometimes working out well (like the Doctor’s transformations), and sometimes, not so much, like Scruffy’s unfortunate death.
@133/LordVorless: My point is, Kirk wasn’t committing “violations.” That’s a profound misunderstanding of TOS by people mistakenly applying TNG-era rules and assumptions. Kirk’s whole job, his rightful duty as the sole representative of the Federation in the distant reaches of space, was to interpret the laws and policies of the Federation according to his best judgment. Like British naval captains in the Age of Sail, he was the one entitled to make those calls because there was no one else present who could. He had the power to enforce the law, to negotiate a treaty, to make a first contact, to start a war, whatever he deemed justified according to his understanding of regulations and his awareness of the uniqueness of each situation. He would’ve been a terrible captain if he hadn’t used his intelligence and judgment to finesse the rules for each situation. Doing so was not a violation of his responsibility, it was the application of his responsibility. Just as we have judges to decide how the laws should be enforced in a given instance, rather than just having a machine give absolute, inflexible verdicts according to some rigid formula. You need a person on the scene to temper the letter of the law with informed judgment, and that’s a key part of what a starship captain’s job was on the frontier.
James T. Kirk has somehow become the most profoundly misunderstood character in the entire Trek franchise. This myth has somehow set in that he was some hotheaded wild man who didn’t care about the rules. But as Keith repeatedly pointed out in his TOS reviews, the character was actually written in exactly the opposite way — as a committed, dutiful career officer who always did his best to obey the letter of his orders and enforce the laws and principles of the Federation in a fair and responsible way. He was written as the man who upheld the Prime Directive, the policeman who stopped other people (and computers) from breaking it, which fit into the activist, Peace Corps mentality of the 1960s. It’s only by the post-colonial TNG approach, which saw any attempt at intervention to be bad no matter how benevolent, that Kirk’s interventions appear like “violations.” By the standards of the time — both the 1960s and the 2260s — Kirk was protecting or restoring other cultures’ sovereignty, not violating it.
And Cracked is a comedy site. It deliberately exaggerates and distorts things for the sake of a joke. You can’t take its assessments as literal fact. Hell, these days it’s barely even funny anymore.
On the Kobayashi Maru, the 2009 movie and the Julia Ecklar novel of that name show him programming it to guarantee his victory, but Kevin Lauderdale’s Strange New Worlds anthology story “A Test of Character” just has him reprogram it to be fair, then win it honestly.
Part of the issue with Kirk’s reputation may lie with William Shatner’s own promotion of the character, not least in the “Shatnerverse” Kirk-centric novels appearing partially over his byline. The Kirk of those books, as I recall, gets more improbably heroic by the chapter, largely by virtue of acting outside the Starfleet box.
134, I’m not even sure it was CRACKED, actually, it was just the name that came to mind rather than one of the other choices, but there’s a lot of truth in comedy and satire. As the great sage, Homer Simpson said, “It’s Funny Cuz it’s True” and he’s not alone. I wish I could recall where I saw it, then we could examine the particulars together. I’m sure there are other versions in plenty, but that only makes the challenge more difficult for me.
Still, I have to say, there’s more than a sliver of truth to the idea that Kirk, like much of Trek, is shielded by the protagonist-centered morality that gives him an aura of respectability that might not be so richly deserved.
And no, it isn’t entirely a new thing, the tearing down of the esteemed in the past, even the fictional ones, certainly dates no later than Mark Twain in American History, and goes back much further in the rest of the world.
A lot of inflated balloons do get punctured, as they often deserve.
And TNG didn’t even hold to its own presented approach, though I will say they often did go overboard even more than TOS with their cloying morality statements.
That there’s the capacity of somebody to write their own version of the Kobayashi Maru story to suit their narrative, well, that just reminds me of the Editor’s Note from the Thieves’ World anthologies. It was just a way to cover up how the authors were all different people who didn’t necessarily even talk to each other.
The idea of Kirk as a renegade began in the movies — first when he bucked his superiors to get the Enterprise back in TMP, then when TWOK revealed he’d cheated on the Kobayashi Maru, then when he stole the Enterprise in TSFS, then when he ignored the President’s orders to stay away from Earth in TVH, and so on. And now that I think about it, I realize the TNG movies took Picard in a similar direction. FC had him ordered to stay away from the Borg battle, and it was by defying orders that he saved the day. And Insurrection was about Picard going renegade against a corrupt admiral.
So I think this is just about movie formulas. Lots of American movies are about lone heroes who defy authority; it’s one of the standard tropes. So once Trek became a movie series, its protagonists became subject to that trope. Just another way in which movies aren’t an ideal format for Star Trek. They impose too many conventions and limitations that skew the storytelling in a different direction than it took on TV.
And it’s not the only movie franchise where that happened. Look at Mission: Impossible. On the show, while the protagonists’ missions were mostly con games, heists, and other crimes in the name of global security, they were still loyally following the instructions of the Secretary — heck, they were even doing it on a volunteer basis, choosing to accept the missions they were offered. So they were obedient to authority on the show, and their plans were usually meticulously worked out in advance and carried out like clockwork, with only the occasional need for fallback plans when things went wrong. But almost every single one of the M:I movies has been about Ethan Hunt being declared a traitor and on the run from his government, and Hunt and his teams use methods so chaotic and improvisational that the most recent movie referred to them as virtually indistinguishable from luck.
@135/John: Shatner always wanted Kirk to be improbably heroic. The 1968 book The Making of Star Trek recounts the following scene that took place during the shooting of “Shore Leave”: Someone suggested that Kirk could wrestle down the tiger, and Shatner “took to the idea right away” and couldn’t be dissuaded until Nimoy told him: “Bill, you don’t have to wrestle the tiger. I’ll just pinch him.” That made me smile. There’s this guy, playing my all-time favourite character and doing it really well, and he would have preferred to play a cartoonishly exaggerated version.
I think part of Kirk’s undeserved reputation is due to the fact that he isn’t a stock character. He’s a rule-abiding out-of-the-box thinker, and that’s unusual. Although I’m not sure if it was all that unusual in 1966.
@137/Christopher: “I think this is just about movie formulas. Lots of American movies are about lone heroes who defy authority; it’s one of the standard tropes.” – I wonder, is it only movies? I have the impression that these days, a certain disregard for rules is required of every American hero. For example, why did Burnham break into the lab in “Context is for Kings”? It didn’t fit her repentant attitude. I suspect she did it because it’s expected behaviour for the hero of the show.
137, I think the Mission Impossible series was adapted due to the original premise being a bit unworkable, but no, it isn’t just a movie theme, there’s always been a running undercurrent of authority defiance in various works, I think it’s the need for some kind of element of antagonism, even the movie “Sully” had it added in, with which the subject of the movie found himself quite uncomfortable, since he felt the investigators were quite decent people.
Still, that’s a separate issue that what applies to Kirk, and TOS, which is that even the authorities are in on it, because the show was still under the limits of the main characters always doing the right thing anyway.
138, I believe Shatner was also a little upset that Spock and Nimoy got a lot more attention, and wanted to be more central.
But there’s also a letter Gene Roddenberry wrote to Isaac Asimov:
But the problem we generally fine is this—if we play Kirk as a true ship commander, strong and hard, devoted to career and service, it too often makes him seem unlikeable. On the other hand, if we play him too warm-hearted, friendly, and so on, the attitude often is “how did a guy like that get to be a ship commander?”
@139/LordVorless: Interesting letter, thanks for quoting it! It pretty much sums up why Kirk is my favourite character – he’s a believable ship commander and a really nice person at the same time. They walked that line perfectly.
@138/Jana & 139/LordVorless: Of course the tropes in movies aren’t exclusive to movies, but the point is that movies are more prone to being forced into certain stock formulas, because all major studio movies are approved by a fairly small number of top executives and thus pretty much have to conform to the same few people’s tastes and beliefs about what makes a successful movie. So works from other media that get adapted into movies tend to get changed to fit standard movie formulas. For instance, most superheroes in comics do not kill, but superheroes in movies frequently do kill, because it’s a stock movie formula that the bad guy dies in the end. And many superhero movies have been less about the hero saving people than about the hero pursuing revenge against the villain, because revenge plots are one of the standard action movie formulas.
Besides, it’s a difference in the storytelling format. TV series, especially in the older episodic days, tend to be about maintaining the status quo. If a hero is a member of an authority structure, you can’t show them defying that authority too severely on a regular basis — enough to be iconoclastic and independent, sure, but not enough to threaten their continued employment or the very survival of the organization. But movies are more isolated stories that tend to be about big, exceptional, disruptive events in their characters’ lives. So there’s a greater chance that any given movie about a protagonist within an authority structure will be about that protagonist defying that authority, going on the run from it, exposing its whole leadership structure as corrupt, or whatever. (Although it has gotten pretty ridiculous that that’s happened to Ethan Hunt in four out of the five M:I movies.)
140, glad to show it to you, and I believe a similar quality was expressed in the promotional sales materials for the stations, along with the airbrushed ears of Mr. Spock. Let’s see:
A strong, capable, highly intelligent man in his mid-thirties, Kirk is a born leader who has trained himself to walk the tightrope between friendship and authority without losing his sense of humor or compassion for others.
I can’t say it was perfect, if nothing else, the actors had some conflicts, but I can appreciate the effort, though I do think that part of the reason for casting Frakes and Stewart in TNG was so they could break up those aspects, but then, it seems they didn’t manage to make that work either.
At least, they couldn’t stick to it.
141, I just don’t see a reason to focus on movies, as television shows, books, both literature and graphic, radio plays, and all points between and beyond, often go through the same travails (And this often worldwide, not just Hollywood). And even the failure to actually deal with the villains has been addressed in various comics (Kingdom Come, Infinite Crisis, and the Sentry among others), but yeah, you can’t keep killing off the bad guys because you need another issue next month and the month after that, and that leads to well…
But there’s another aspect, which is the form of the story itself. Sometimes it is the explicit result of mandates, such as the Hayes Code, various BS&P, or the Comic Code Authority, and sometimes it is because that is what works. The reason why the Mission Impossible movies keep getting made?
Money. There’s apparently a lot of money in it. And of course, that’s also why it’s difficult to make a movie like the Caine Mutiny. Wanting to keep front-end support is important.
But speaking of Mission Impossible, one critique of its original format was that it was confusing, you had to watch it with attention to get what was going on.
@141/Christopher: This just gave me a new appreciation for the TOS films. Only one revenge plot! And only one story where Kirk defies authority! (I’m not counting TVH, because I don’t think that a general “Save yourselves. Avoid the planet Earth at all costs” really qualifies as an order. Of course, Spock defies authority in TUC, but Spock does that all the time anyway.)
@142/LordVorless: That’s true about Picard and Riker. Picard started out rather grumpy, but in the second half of TNG, he became quite friendly.
@143/LordVorless: I focus on movies because movies are what we’re talking about. The issue is why the Trek movies portrayed Kirk as a renegade in a way he wasn’t portrayed on the series.
“But speaking of Mission Impossible, one critique of its original format was that it was confusing, you had to watch it with attention to get what was going on.”
I have never understood that mindset. Why would anyone not expect to pay attention to something they’re watching? Watching means paying attention! And anyone who objects to being asked to think, anyone who reacts to the idea of using their brains and senses as if it were a bad thing, will get absolutely no sympathy from me. Good fiction challenges its audience.
Besides — it’s Mission: Impossible! It’s a show whose whole premise is built around mind games and deceptions. Complaining that it’s confusing is like going to a strip club and complaining that the show wasn’t family-friendly. If you’re there at all, you should know what you’re getting into.
145, that’s the thing, it’s not a focus on the movies, but a focus as if it was because they were movies, when I would attribute such things to other factors, and I would not attribute it to the changing times either.
Anyway, I think I left out an important piece of the context, which was that it came from when Mission Impossible was new, so there was no expectation, no understanding of it as such. It’s like biting into Wasabi while thinking it’s Pistachio, you’re going to get surprised.
@146/LordVorless: Again, I have no sympathy for people who think being surprised and challenged by entertainment is a bad thing. Do some people want everything to be predictable, inoffensive pabulum? Of course, always. Should the rest of us waste any mental effort worrying about it? Hell, no. Good fiction comes from creators who refuse to settle for such low standards.
Besides, what has any of that got to do with the M:I movies? They were made decades after the series, so the audience certainly should’ve known what to expect. Although my problem with the M:I movies is that they have virtually nothing to do with the series, and are the direct opposite of the series’s approach in many ways.
147, ah, you seem to think it’s a judgment issue, as opposed to an expectation issue, by reference to it as a bad thing, as opposed to just an expression of the approach that works for it. Apologies if it was my poor expression that lead you astray when I was recounting something I’d seen regarding the original Mission Impossible series. Less about the standards being low, and more about them being directed appropriately.
Yes, the films are different from the series, no surprise in that. Does remind me of something else though, when one of the actors from said series pointed out that she had nothing to do with the movies, and they had nothing to do with her, Paramount was just doing what they were expected to do, make money for themselves, and there was nothing wrong with that.
@99 – JanaJansen: Again, individual characters are not reliable narrators. It’s possible that for the majority of the Federation, everyday life hasn’t changed due to the war. But for some people, on the edges of civilization, it has.
@102 – kkozoriz: Spock is smart, but not infallible, and he doesn’t knowe everything, particularly not everything that might be classified. And about the Prime Directive, see last night’s episode. It has not be retconed.
@103 – Chris: It’s like the people complaining about continuity have not actually paid attentions to TOS and TNG.
@107 – Chris: There are some design similarities, mostly in the equipment: phasers, tricorders, communicators, sickbay instruments, etc.
@108 – Jana: Except for the away team vests, the DIS uniforms don’t look militaristic, they look a bit like a mix between sportswear and the practical jumpsuits worn on ENT.
@149/MaGnUs: It’s possible, but I don’t think it’s the intended interpretation. I will be very happy if I’m proven wrong.
As for the uniforms, I admit that they reminded me of neoprene wetsuits at first. Back in the olden days, those used to be dark blue.
149, at least they haven’t claimed a wizard did it.
150, now you’re making me want to get one of the toy dolls, er, action figures, for Discovery and stick a fish bowl helmet on it, then stick it in an aquarium.
149. MaGnUs – I didn’t say that it had been retconned, I said that I wouldn’t be surprised if it was. After all, the TOS PD was all over the place. After all Kirk said “A star captain’s most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive.” and yet he was willing to kill everyone on Eminair to save his ship, his crew and his own hide.
@151/LordVorless: I bet that would look great next to a gold fish.
@152/kkozoriz: If Kirk had killed everyone on Eminiar, that would have included him. So it wasn’t about his own hide.
He made the threat so get them to back down, which would have saved himself. And Scotty didn’t seem to be taking it as a bluff. Everything he did showed that he was seriously going to carry out the order.
We come in peace indeed.
@154/kkozoriz: I didn’t say that it was a bluff. I prefer to interpret it that way, but there isn’t evidence for it in the episode.
So, there were two possible outcomes. The Eminians back down, and nobody dies. Or they don’t, and everybody on the planet dies, including Kirk and the landing party. Either way, “He was willing to kill everyone on Eminiar to save […] his own hide” is incorrect.
I always kinda wished that somebody had challenged them on their calculations, after all, the computers didn’t reflect on Federation technology or procedures, and it seemed the Enterprise was far beyond their capabilities.
Re: Eminar, If the Eminarins hadn’t decided to include the crew of the Enterprise in their calculations of casualties Kirk would have let them go on with their war. But they did – The Eminarins interfered with the Federation first.
To be fair, they did apparently have a message, if apparently a vague one that just said “Stay Away” rather than “Active War Zone, enter at your own risk” which makes them kinda…disreputable.
155. JanaJansen – You missed one. They back down and con’t include the Enterprise in their targeted casualties and Vendikar retaliates using real bombs. Everyone in the system dies except for the crew of the Enterprise.
157. princessroxana – No, The Eminains had put up a big “Keep Out” sign at the edge of the system. Kirk even comments that it means :
KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
So Fox, on behalf of the Federation orders Kirk to follow an order that by it’s definition is an illegal one. And Kirk lets him do it. As soon as the ship entered Eminian space, they were trespassing and Eminiar/Vendikar were well within their rights to declare what the punishmet for doing so would be. After all, it is their planet.
The classic case of the Federation ignoring what the people on a non-aligned planet want to do simply because Starfleet has bigger guns and is able to impose their will.
I disagree that four hundred and thirty people should die because of one stubborn government official.
Anyway I doubt the Prime Directive applies to a space going civilization. They are equals.
159, and if that isn’t a forced conversation, I don’t know what is(like they were trying to make Fox look bad for some reason), though really, the lack of a specific warning is quite troubling. Did they have some problem with identifying their particular reasons for exclusion?
160, also idiotic, did he really think anybody on the spaceship would instantly start sending down his crew on a whim? I know they gave Ambassador Fox an idiot ball, but seriously as plans go, it required inordinate amounts of stupidity.
Why would they need to put up a specific reason? If you put up a Keep Out sign on your fence, you don’t have to explain why you want people to keep out. It’s all encompassing.
” Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever. “
Sure, they COULD have spelled out why but it’s not necessary. Simply the fact that they’re saying “Leave us alone” is reason enough.
@160/roxana: The Prime Directive applies to all civilizations, regardless of advancement. The fundamental rule is “Don’t interfere in other civilizations’ right to make their own choices.” When dealing with pre-contact civilizations, that generally means not revealing yourselves to them, since a revelation on such a scale could prove highly disruptive to their society, and since the power differential between you and them would make it hard for them to resist your “guidance.” But with post-contact civilizations, the Federation is still forbidden from intervening to impose change on another society against its will. This is why Starfleet couldn’t intervene in the Klingon Civil War in TNG: “Redemption.” As long as it was believed to be a strictly internal matter, then it was a problem the Klingons had to solve for themselves and the UFP couldn’t interfere. It was only when it was revealed to be a Romulan plot, an attack on an ally by an outside enemy, that Starfleet was able to act.
This is why Starfleet doesn’t go around overthrowing dictatorships, why they didn’t liberate Bajor from Cardassia, etc. They’re not allowed to intervene where they aren’t invited, or to take sides in someone else’s elections or wars or policy debates. They can provide humanitarian aid or act as neutral mediators when invited, but they still leave it to other cultures to solve their own problems.
I feel like we’ve had this conversation about “A Taste Of Armaggedon” several times already…
162, Why wouldn’t I put up a specific reason if there’s some particular danger or concern? “Keep Out–Private Property” is different from “Keep-Out–Quarantine” or “Keep-Out–Live Fire Exercises” or in this case, “Keep-Out–Conducting a War by computer simulation, all entrants subject to attack” for lack of a shorter phrasing that springs to mind.
Specific and valid warnings are often more appropriate than generic ones. In some cases, when it comes to private property, they are even legally required in some cases, such as “dangerous dogs” in a few states. And no, that Keep-Out sign is not all encompassing, just ask what happens when you try to run off a surveyor or other government agent.
Now you might say that doesn’t apply to sovereign states, as such, but that gets into why I’m bothered by this “Code 710” business, which implies some standard protocol, which means that they’re either communicating with outside entities in some way, which makes the obfuscation even less understandable, or Uhura is not relaying the message exactly, but using a short-hand that isn’t appropriate, and what’s really odd is the Ambassador not being familiar with it. Yet he apparently has orders to enter. So…why does he come across as ignorant and a horse’s ass?
I consider that a piece of poorly written dialogue, a forced conversation.
Especially since Spock was able to relay that there had been contact before, and knowledge of a war.
To me, it adds up to a poorly implemented attempt to keep the “twist” concealed.
164, for like almost six decades now?
I’m talking about Tor.com and the specific people having the conversation.
167, yeah, I looked that up, just to see what it was like. I can say I didn’t see my perspective brought up, at least.
But in general, it’s nothing that I wouldn’t expect to find on Usenet archives, BBS message boards, or in letters between fans.
@165/LordVorless: I agree that specific warnings work much better than generic ones, but many people don’t seem to know that. I’ve seen too many generic warnings in real life to find that plot point contrived or unrealistic. And I’ve met too many self-assured idiots to find Ambassador Fox unrealistic. He’s actually more competent than some people I’ve met, in that he’s willing to adjust to new situations and learn from mistakes.
@167/MaGnUs: For example in the “Taste of Armageddon” rewatch thread… But some of the people and some of the aspects discussed here are new.
Yeah, but I feel like it’s come up in other threads too.
165, even accepting the premise of the vague warning as anything but a rather obvious attempt to conceal the episode’s focus, it still makes it a little less reputable than anything resembling a proper warning would be. And the use of the “Code 710” reference just makes it deliberately ambiguous, as it doesn’t specify what they were actually saying, which combined with the Ambassador’s seeming ignorance of the code is really making it worse than it had to be. You can say it’s not unrealistic, but it’s still an awkward (and hence I would say forced) way to do it.
Fox himself is a bit inconsistent in his portrayal, because in the teaser, they’re making him out to be the “heavy” forcing Kirk to do something he doesn’t want to do(Kirk, of course, having to be the golden boy, gets an out, an apparently cut line of dialogue making it even more blatant), then they have Fox so gullible as to believe the ruse(which is so obvious and stupid, I wonder about Anan 7’s thinking even more, though another cut scene might help resolve that some, in that he knew it was desperate), then it ends up he’s going to be negotiating a peace treaty because he’s not such a bad guy, really, believe us.
It does seem there were some script problems that caused it to be delayed, but I suspect they just had to go with it being a little less polished.
@163, but in this case the Enterprise has been dragged into the war by being labelled casualties. That was of course totally unnecessary, the Eminarians could have excepted outsiders from their war programs. I agree the Enterprise shouldn’t have been there in the first place but I can’t see quietly submitting to execution under these circumstances.
@171/LordVorless: Your comment was 165, mine was 169. :)
It’s true that Fox is rather gullible, but since he had already made up his mind about the Enterprise crew and the Eminians, I could believe that scene. And I don’t think that he was ever supposed to be a bad guy, just misguided and too self-assured. The episode doesn’t have a bad guy. I like that.
What’s so odd about his offer to negotiate the peace treaty? He came to Eminiar specifically to negotiate a treaty. Negotiating treaties is what he does.
As for Anan, remember how obedient the Eminians are. Perhaps he expected the ruse to work because it would have worked on his world.
173, silly me, yes, but that is why I initially used the word “Heavy” anyway, as I decided that even “bad guy” (quotes for a reason) wasn’t quite getting it, though I missed the second usage, I meant to change that to a bad diplomat since he wasn’t doing a very good job throughout the whole episode.
It’s not odd that he wants to negotiate a treaty, it’s odd that he’s being trusted, because what makes it hard to swallow, is that he’s been used rather in the opposite direction the rest of the episode, then an about-face, and now we’re supposed to take it as fine. Fox was just handed the “idiot ball” for too much of the episode for that to not raise an eyebrow for me. Like I said, inconsistent. A little polish could have worked that out.
As far as Anan 7 goes, no, the attempt at a ruse (which he did specify he recognized as a question of immorality), and his coercion of Kirk, shows he knows better. Like I said, the excised dialogue does portray him better, he knows it is desperate. But even without that, he knows too much for him to be just blithely assuming they’d go along. Which is why Fox’s reaction is so gullible.
And they didn’t even bother to explain how Fox beamed down, even five words from Scotty would have resolved that one.
@174/LordVorless: Well, I agree with your last paragraph.
I’d say we can’t know if Fox is a bad diplomat. He didn’t try to be a diplomat with the Enterprise crew. We don’t know why – perhaps because he’s in charge anyway, so he doesn’t bother. Perhaps he doesn’t like them, or he’s always like that when he prepares for an important job.
For a real-world example, I once knew a guy who was really bad in discussions with friends because he frequently said things that were not quite what he had meant to say, and he often didn’t bother to explain himself. I was surprised when I once met him in a professional setting – The same man turned out to be a great negotiator. He just had to prepare and concentrate. I can easily imagine that Fox is like that too.
175, Oh I could believe he’s really quite good if he tries, but the problem is they’re expecting us to believe that, without giving us a reason to do so. It’s less what they did, and more the way they did it.
A few dialogue changes might have improved it, for example, instead of making it seem like he was ignorant of what “Code 710 meant” they could have had him more clearly asking “why” they sent it.
@176/LordVorless: Yes, that’s true.
165. LordVorless
“Specific and valid warnings are often more appropriate than generic ones. In some cases, when it comes to private property, they are even legally required in some cases, such as “dangerous dogs” in a few states. And no, that Keep-Out sign is not all encompassing, just ask what happens when you try to run off a surveyor or other government agent.”
That’s where the Keep Out sign analogy breaks down because, unlike the surveyor or government agent”, the Enterprise (and by extension the Federation) have no legal right to be in somebody else’s system if they don’t want them there.
174. LordVorless
“It’s not odd that he wants to negotiate a treaty, it’s odd that he’s being trusted, because what makes it hard to swallow, is that he’s been used rather in the opposite direction the rest of the episode, then an about-face, and now we’re supposed to take it as fine.”
And Fox isn’t there to negotiate a treaty, he’s there to establish a treaty port which is imposed by a more powerful entity upon a weaker one. That’s how Hong Kong ended up British. It’s a very, VERY imperialistic tactic that the Federation should be, but apparently isn’t, above using.
172. princessroxana – What you’re suggesting is similar to someone coming up to a national border marked with “Keep out” signs, a fence and barbed wire, ignoring all of that and then complaining when the inhabitants of that land prosecute you under their laws. So you manage to smuggle out a message to your home country and they threaten to nuke your entire population unless they let you go.
I stick to the opinion that Kirk was right not to surrender his crew to be executed. There was no lawbreaking or trial involved. Basically Eminar and Vendikar have been playing a murderous LRPG game for over a century and they’ve decided the Enterprise is playing too.
178, You brought up the Keep-Out signs, but contrary to your statement, they aren’t all-encompassing. You’re relying too much on your belief in that, without being actually correct on the substance of the real-world reference you’re using. The signs don’t work the way you portrayed them. They’re quite limited, often dismissed and ignored, and you can get in trouble if you act like they’re an absolute aegis. And FWIW, there are a lot of disputes over intrusions into sovereign territory, from the Korean DMZ to the Rio Grande, not to mention a lot to do with planes, like KAL 007. It’s actually quite a problem in the real world, let alone among alien cultures.
As for Fox, we don’t really know he wasn’t there to negotiate a reasonable mutual pact, and like the issue with the “warning” it is subject to some ambiguity. Sure, there are unequal treaties, but there are others. I wouldn’t rely overmuch on the “treaty port” word, any more than I’m inclined to rely on the “Code 710” business as being specifically indicating that they were using a standard protocol, which even if they were would just be raising more questions about Eminiar’s moral practices.
Now if they’d kept the line from the shooting script, then you might have more of a foundation, but that was apparently removed.
179, yeah, at least the Sheliak negotiated the treaty with the Federation before they started going on about killing people off.
Why wouldn’t you rely on the term “treaty port?” It’s right there in the script and on the screen. It’s a specific term with a specific meaning. Same with Code 710. Kirk specifically says “For no reason whatsoever”. It would appear that you’re changing the terms for no reason other than portraying the Federation in a more positive light. Everything bad is because of the Emenians and the Federation is totally blameless.
The Code 710 isn’t ambiguous. It’s all encompassing. And there was no mention of mutual benefits. The Federation wanted a port because of ship losses in the area. We know that they weren’T lost in the Eminiar system because the only other ship mentioned was from 50 years earlier, not the 20 years given by Fox. At that time, it was reported that there was a war on. Seeing as the Federation had made contact with Eminiar, it makes sense that that’s where they learned of Code 710. Think of it as adding Keep Out in another language to the sign. Fox was warned that ignoring it could involve them in a war and that’s exactly what happened.
182, in case you missed it (or have forgotten, or I was not clear enough earlier), my problem is really because I find the dialogue in general to be poorly written and prone to ambiguity. So I’d actually be inclined towards blaming the writer(s) for the problems. They wanted to conceal the twist, so they came up with this “Code 710” business rather than set forth what was going on. This leads to the Eminarians looking bad, as not only is their warning vague (though enough that Kirk entered prepared for danger), their initial dialogue (which was after agreeing to receive a diplomatic party) did not specify what was going on, and they didn’t mention it themselves, Spock had to figure it out.
Especially since no, “Code 710” is not specific, and by claiming it is “all encompassing” you are showing how ambiguous it really is. Really, we don’t even know how the Eminarians got the idea for this message. Again, a problem with ambiguity, as I said in 165, I’m not even willing to rule out the fault being Uhura’s, though really, the ultimate fault is the poor writing. If they’d said “Active War Zone” or something, it’d at least not make them look so disreputable. But the twist had to be concealed.
And no, I don’t know that the writer had that same meaning for “treaty port” as you are using. Not with the pattern in Star Trek episodes of writers using terms with less than desirable accuracy. It isn’t just limited to the scientific. For all we know, it could have been intended as something more akin to the foreign basing protocols that were common to the Sixties, and that would have been more in keeping with how the Federation is supposedly portrayed, though not so much other interstellar entities.
And no, we don’t know what was happening to the other ships with their losses, or the Valiant for that matter.
That is left…unknown. Again, another problem with ambiguous writing.
Anyway, If you want to complain about the Federation Council deciding it was going to ignore the warning, and intervene, fine, but that won’t make any of the other problems of the episode go away.
183, to clarify myself with regards to the Valiant, I mean we don’t know what really happened, they obviously managed to make SOME report about a war, but beyond that, other than resisting the disintegration, we really don’t know what happened with them. More trickery, or direct confrontation?
Pause, blink:
How in heck did we get thirty-odd posts deep into an analysis of a TOS episode in the discussion thread for a DSC/DISCO episode?
That said, two things. First, let’s not confuse bad writing with rapid writing; one of the characteristics of episodic TV then and now is that the scripts have to be written very quickly, which is why fine detail is ALWAYS a difficulty in the medium, irrespective of genre, network, or other non-content-related variables.
Second, the real idiot in the story-background of this episode is not Fox, is not Kirk, is not whoever put a Code 710 warning on the Eminiar system in the first place. It’s the upper-level bureaucrat or policy geek who wrote Fox’s orders and either failed to do their research on Eminiar (which is to say, didn’t read the Starfleet files which would have listed the system’s Code 710 status), and/or did not follow up those orders to Fox with parallel orders or communiques down the Starfleet side of the command chain calling for either a waiver or a removal of the Code 710 status in the context of the specific mission.
The confrontation Fox and Kirk have at the outset thus arises, not because either is an idiot, but because they have — as often happens in bureaucracies — been issued conflicting orders by upper-level authority that hasn’t done its homework. And it is resolved — wholly consistent with Kirk’s “man on the ground” authority as captain in the TOS era — by Kirk grudgingly going ahead with the mission, because he reasons (probably correctly) that the immediate mission is being judged by higher authority as more important than the generic Code 710 warning.
185, I’ll gladly affirm as I said back in 171, that I do not consider it necessarily a matter of personal fault in the writer’s own abilities, but would accept it as a lack of polish. I was actually just thinking today how I might say that the advantage of having XX years to think about it, not to mention much more understanding of the Star Trek universe itself, gives me an edge over the writer(s).
As for your bureaucrat that’d certainly be an interesting speculation and a worthy story in itself, but it doesn’t exist as anything in the material itself as far as I know. Certainly Kirk did go along with the orders, so it’s hard to imagine that Fox did not provide his bonafides.
183. LordVorless – Code 710 is ambiguous? Perhaps in the reason for it but not in it’s intent. It means “Keep out! This means you!”. The Emenian have their own system and have only attacked ships that enter their war zone. You stay out when you’re told in no uncertain terms to stay out and you’re perfectly safe. They don’t owe anyone a reason for not wanting visitors. It”s enough that they don’t. Now, if there had not been the warning then sure, the situation would be different but the Enterprise was warned off and ignored it. At the very least it’s trespassing. At worst, invasion. And seeing as Kirk was perfectly willing to kill everyone, I’d tend towards the latter.
Go to Wikipedia or Britattanica or any other history site and loo up treaty ports. Again, not ambiguous. Here’s the definition from Wikipedia –
“The treaty ports was the name given to the port cities in China and Japan that were opened to foreign trade by the unequal treaties with the Western powers.”
And here’s unequals treaties
“Unequal treaty is the name given by the Chinese to a series of treaties signed with Western powers during the 19th and early 20th centuries by Qing dynasty China and late Tokugawa Japan after suffering military defeat by the foreign powers or when there was a threat of military action by those powers. The term is also applied to treaties imposed during the same time period on late Joseon Korea by the post-Meiji Restoration Empire of Japan.”
As you can see, it’s the establishment of a port at the barrel of a gun. Gunboat diplomacy quite literally. And it just happens that the Federation sends one of their most powerful ships to do the job.
Sure, it could have been rewritten to get rid of what you consider problems but that’s not what we’ve got.
187, Yes, the ambiguous nature of the warning is indeed a matter of not giving the reason. Which again, was most likely done to conceal the “twist” in the episode. Which ends up making the Eminiarans look disreputable, because they were seemingly unable or unwilling to clearly set forth the terms of their conduct. And it’s hard for me to accept they were just ignorant, as the references to “Just as it happened fifty years ago. ” means they knew from past experience that agreement would not be forthcoming. The same can’t be said for the Enterprise crew, who is actually ignorant, and kept so due to the script.
Want to consider the Enterprise as trespassers? Well, in that case, I’d really consider a slightly better argument that they’d have been much better off in moral terms if they had attacked the Enterprise directly from the start rather than claim they were offering hospitality to visitors according to their own morality. I’d have found it a poor choice, since attacking an obvious superior vessel would likely be futile as the failed attacks by Eminiar showed, (which alone makes the Vendikar attack being effective dubious), but at least it would be forthright, rather than deceptive.
Once the Eminiarans started to be deceptive, that makes them the aggressor, because when it comes to their agreement with Vendikar, the Federation, as Kirk says, is not responsible for it, they weren’t consulted, but his party being forced into it by a party willing to use coercion and deception. Despite previously offering hospitality.
And Anan 7 even wants to keep their ship intact. That wouldn’t happen except for the treaty. Very suspicious that. Another thing it’d be better if the script was explicit on though.
Anyway, I can accept that they were trespassing, but it is unpersuasive to argue that it was an invasion by referring to Kirk’s use of General Order 24. That’s a response to the Eminiaran actions, not an initial engagement. Of course, since Kirk also worked to achieve a result that would forestall his own orders, it shows he worked to avoid it. In terms of initial action? Entering the system, and trying to communicate in order to establish as they say, diplomatic relations.
Not exactly inherently offensive actions. Eminiar could have said “No, go home” and that’d be one thing, even absent the specific warning. They didn’t stop there. They didn’t even stick to strictly offensive actions, but relied on manipulation to enforce a virtual result decided by computers that the Federation wasn’t even allowed to verify were accurately depicting the results. (Another defect in the script, as I would consider it much better if Spock or Kirk had challenged the results of the simulation.)
And nope, can’t rely on the meaning of Treaty Ports, with the history of writers misusing terms, even their own jargon, the requirement is evidence the writer knowingly meant such usage, but since all Fox says is that he wants to do is save lives, and Kirk just says the Federation wants to establish diplomatic relations, and they end up making peace, it’s not really supporting the idea of the writer deliberately intended to apply that historical meaning.
Can’t use the “Gunboat Diplomacy” line because it’s been excised. Sorry, but it’s you who is held back by the script as written. It doesn’t contain the elements you want, so your bald assertions are falling flat.
Me? I’m pointing out the defects in the script. A different approach. I’m saying it how it would be better.
But they weren’t trying to establish diplomatic relations. They were there to establish a treaty port. Full stop.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I’m here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I’m quite prepared to take that risk.
And getting involved in an interplanetary was was EXACTLY what happened. They can’t claim “Oh, we were so surprised by that” . And you say ” Kirk says, is not responsible for it, they weren’t consulted, but his party being forced into it by a party willing to use coercion and deception. ” as if that makes their ignoring of the warning to keep out simply a difference of opinion. Kirk himself states “KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever. “. It’s not ambiguous because it covers EVERYTHING. Want diplomatic relations? Nope. Trade? Nope. Free passage through he system? Nope. It literally means NO reason. None. The answer to every request to approach the planets is “No.” The Federation just can’t imagine that anyone wouldn’t want to deal with them because they’re just so awesome.
Apparently the only proper way to view the Federation is through rose coloured glasses. If you simply want to be left alone then it’s the Federation’s job to come in and solve your problems at the point of a phaser, whether you want them to or not. “We’re doing it for your own good” is the anthesis of what the Prime Directive is supposed to be.
189, Not there to establish diplomatic relations? But they were there for that purpose, Kirk says it:
My orders are clear. We must establish diplomatic relations at all cost.
My mission is to establish diplomatic relations between your people and mine.
So does Fox:
We came here to establish diplomatic relations with these people.
That Fox is willing to say he’s dedicated to his task does not prove any aggressive intent, unfortunately for you, the only thing that’s actually in the episode that comes close to your wording is from Mr. Scott, who says:
Diplomats. The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank.
But he’s neither in command, nor setting policy. Rather, the man who is the agent of Federation policy, the Ambassador, vociferously disagrees with Mr. Scott.
In any case, you’ll note that Anan 7 did not actually consider the Enterprise’s entry into their space as hostile. His problem throughout the episode was with the agreement with Vendikar being violated. He never once complained about trespassing, and by Mea 3’s own words, it was a warning for safety, rather than any statement of offense at intruding.
So no, you can’t even say they’re opposed to communication or interaction as it were, even Anan 7 only says it is impossible due to the war, not because of any desire to not have contact.
Beyond that, Anan 7’s complaints reflect his problem with retaining his agreement with Vendikar, not treating the Federation with respect or consideration, while hypocritically insisting they abide by his terms, while refusing to inform them properly even despite his existing knowledge that there would be a conflict. So instead of open honesty, he chooses to be duplicitous himself.
He could have avoided all this by simply making forthright statements, and he has no excuse for ignorance, since he knew about the prior contact.
Like it or not, the episode makes him, and the rest of Eminiar VII’s government look bad for going along with it. If you want it to be different, you’re going to change the episode. It could be rewritten to say that, but as you said already, it’s not what we’ve got.
We have an episode where the Eminiarans look like crazy idiots who can’t figure out how to communicate. I blame flawed writing myself.
Oddly, the Vendikar, being unshown, aren’t, since they aren’t even demonstrated to be aware what was going on, and the evidence indicates there wasn’t communication. Maybe their leader is more intelligent.
OK, the Federation is fully within their rights to enter any space after being told not to. Independent planets have no right to control who enters their space. And the proper response to being threatened by the people of that planet when they attempt to enforce their laws is genocide.
Gotcha.
191, nope, Kirk’s response was to threaten planetary extermination. Given that he implemented another plan, which all indications are that he intended all along, you can’t claim that he committed any such act, and you’d have a tough uphill slog to argue he even wanted to do so.
That’s what actually happened in the story.
If you want actual implementation, try the Mirror Universe Kirk, he probably did it.
And what would have happened if he hadn’t been able to contact Scotty in time? What would have happened if one of the Emenian guards had actually managed to hit something? Genocide is not something you want to take lightly. Yet it’s treated as something akin to Corbomite. Except Corbomite wouldn’t really kill you.
If I were running Starfleet, Kirk would be facing a desk job at the very least and a court martial at worst. Threatening genocide to save your crew should not be a Federation value. Are 400 Federation lives worth more than 4 billion Emenians
193, actually, Anan 7 only claimed hundreds of million of lives on both planets together. No mention of billions.
But while you can complain about Kirk using the threat of implementing General Order 24, you have to remember that he clearly had an alternate plan, and that there was no actual genocide conducted. His defense to your board of inquiry will surely indicate that. Of course, you also have no idea what the requirements of General Order 24 are, or its specific details, so maybe your problem should not be with Kirk, but with the Federation High Command.
You might want to get elected President of the Federation instead.
Of course, if you want to question Kirk, you should also question Anan 7. Is keeping an agreement with another power that is killing millions of your own people every year worth offending a separate power by coercing them, deceiving them, and otherwise failing to be openly honest, especially when that power is more than capable of ending your entire civilization with a single ship?
He’s just taking way too many stupid risks there. How many ships does he think he can subvert? And his plan was simply inane, relying on the remaining officers on the ship to be utterly and completely stupid enough to beam down their entire crew? He had no demonstrated ability to actually harm the Enterprise after all.
Really, I pity the folks of Eminiar VII for the leader they have, however he was chosen. He even knew he’d have problems, yet his solutions are spectacularly inept.
It’s the Emenians planet. They can run it any way they see fit. It’s not the Federations job to tell other people how to run their planet. Especially since they were told to stay away. The Emenians don’t owe an explanation to anyone except themselves and the Vendikans.
As David Gerrold has said,the Enterprise shouldn’t be a cosmic Mary Worth.
I suppose that you’re OK then with the potential of hundreds of millions lives snuffed out to save 400 Starfleeters. As long as it’s not billions.
It wasn’t just Anan 7. None of the Emenians seemed opposed to how they were running things. Mea 3 was perfectly willing to enter the booth until Kirk stopped her. We also saw lines of people lined up at the booths. It didn’t look like anyone was forcing them either.
the only people who were opposed were the people who had no business interfering in the first place.
Apparently it is the Federations job to enforce human morality on the galaxy.
195, actually, contrary to your assertion, in the episode itself, they did feel they had a moral obligation towards outsiders, by Mea 3’s own words. As I noted, they never asked Kirk to leave because they didn’t want to be disturbed, they never indicated displeasure with entry, they actually expressed concern for the outsider’s safety.
Sorry. They did feel they owed an obligation towards the crew from the Enterprise. They just failed to do so effectively, and it was entirely their own choice, they weren’t ignorant of the problems they were going to face, they’d been through it before and could have learned from their experiences with the Valiant.
So yes, I’m entirely comfortable with Anan 7 facing the consequences of his actions. He’s the one who chose to start a war with a third party that was apparently vastly more capable than himself. He picked the fight, not the Federation. If he wanted to keep up his war without Federation interference, he should have said so, clearly and specifically, not tried to involve them in it by coercion and deception.
And the Federation at large? Seemingly under no real threat from either of the planets, a single Starship is apparently capable of obliterating one planet, and quite easily both, though maybe not.
It’s the people of his own planet that would be at risk. How unfortunate for them, though we don’t actually know that he consulted with the public at large, maybe it’s just he, Sar, and the rest of the council and his immediate staff who are recklessly insane and obsessive.
Maybe the rest of the population would have demanded he stop acting in such a foolish fashion, and instead engage in a course of action that would have fruitful results. Perhaps they would benefit from the Federation demanding the removal of their leadership as a condition of ending the war.
And FWIW, I think you want to reread The World of Star Trek again. Or you can reach out to David Gerrold if you prefer. I believe you misunderstood him.
“The Enterprise is cosmic ‘Mary Worth’ meddling her way across the galaxy, solving problems as she goes.”
med·dle
ˈmedl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: meddling
interfere in or busy oneself unduly with something that is not one’s concern.
I think I understood him just fine.
You keep bring up people that aren’t in the episode in order to bolster your argument. Fox must have gotten his orders from a bureaucrat back home. The people of Eminiar are just waiting to revolt against the council. However, we have no evidence of that. Quite frankly, the people of Eminiar seem quite content with their situation and are appalled at Kirk’s action to turn their war into one more to Kirk’s liking. Quite frankly, it’s none of Kirk’s business how these people fight their wars unless they ask for help. And no, threatening to kill everyone on the planet unless they do things his way isn’t right.
Yes, the situation the Eminians find themselves in is appalling to our eyes. It’s supposed to be. But it’s not up to us to decide how they should run their affairs. That’s been tried on Earth. It’s called imperialism and it led to the decimation of the North American natives, the carving up of most of the rest of the world and leading to problems that we’re still living with today. It smacks of “I know what’s better for you than you do because I think that my morality is superior to yours.
Pedantry alert:
“Decimation” strictly means to reduce a given set by one-tenth (leaving 90% of the set intact). What happened to many of the Native Americans was closer to the reverse; tribal populations were reduced to 10% or less of their former numbers.
I have now rewatched “A Taste of Armageddon”[thank you, CBS All Access!] but will reserve more specific comment till I get home and can type on a full size keyboard.
Now, then: looking at “A Taste of Armageddon” more closely: I’m going to stand by my earlier comment that the script for this was written rapidly (again, like most TV episodes then and now), and that what’s happening here is that we’re all driving much farther down into the detailed worldbuilding than anyone in the TOS production process ever had time to contemplate.
Because if you really want to take the internal logic apart, a 500-year war in which neither side ever gains any measurable advantage makes no sense, even (or especially) if that war is being conducted via computer simulation. Note that I don’t use the word “fought” here. Something else has to be going on, because “fought” implies the existence of victory conditions, the existence of victory conditions implies the potential for victory, and I don’t see how you can program computers to “fight” a war, set them running, and not — if the computers are in fact left to themselves — actually end up with a 500-year stalemate, especially if you’re fighting that war with tri-cobalt bombs. At best, one side should have won long since; at worst, reality-based rules should have required both sides to self-exterminate within a century.
No, if you deliberately program the computers to ensure a 500-year stalemate, you are conducting something other than a war.
Which is the real point where we have to start speculating out beyond what’s in the episode as aired, because the episode as aired clearly does think that what’s happening is a war. In the context of war, the conflict between Anan 7 and Kirk, with their opposing views of “savageness management”, makes a degree of sense. It’s only when we look closely at the assumptions underlying Eminian/Vendikan culture that the “war” scenario breaks down, and takes key parts of the character conflict with it.
So what’s really going on? We know the Eminians are capable of interplanetary travel, having settled Vendikar in the first place. They also have a high sense of duty, but they evidently dislike physical violence — they execute “war” casualties via extraordinarily tidy methods, and are mostly outclassed in physical combat by Kirk and his crew. What neither Eminiar nor Vendikar seem to have is interstellar travel (though by rights Eminiar should by the time Kirk shows up, having most likely taken the Valiant intact, the way they tried to take the Enterprise). And that may be the clue. Instead, they almost certainly have a population-control problem — not unlike what we’ll see in “The Mark of Gideon” much later in TOS continuity — with the permanent state of “war” being designed to cap population growth at levels they can sustain on their existing resource base(s).
And yet if that’s the case, they should be welcoming a Federation capable of interstellar travel with open arms, because the logical way to solve their population issues is to expand beyond their solar system onto more colony worlds…
…which makes the whole “Code 710” bit even stranger, because Kirk says the “Code 710” warning comes from the Eminiar system, as opposed to Starfleet Command. Yet that can’t have resulted from direct contact with Eminiar. If it had, diplomatic discussions could have been conducted over subspace channels, without putting the Enterprise in target range according to the Eminiar-Vendikar war computers — this having been how the Romulan conflict was resolved, per “Balance of Terror”. More likely the Valiant managed to place an automated beacon on the fringes of the solar system before it was captured/destroyed. Yes, the Eminians might have put the beacon there, if they learned enough from taking the Valiant to know what “Code 710” means — only you’d think that a culture with deep population-control issues would want to talk to people with interstellar travel tech.
@197/kkozoriz: You’ve given the dictionary definition of “meddle”, but that doesn’t prove your point, because words acquire different meanings in context. Perhaps Gerrold meant to say that the Enterprise travelled the galaxy, helped people, and generally made things better, and that despite the occasional element of coercion, that was a good thing. Or perhaps you’re right, and he criticised the element of coercion. Without context, we can’t tell.
@199/John C. Bunnell: I see “A Taste of Armageddon” as one of many TOS episodes that combine elements of a parable (the main idea of the plot) with elements of realistic storytelling (characters, character interaction, plot details). Such being the case, the main idea doesn’t have to be 100 percent plausible for the story to work. Other examples of this “genre” include “The Enemy Within”, “Mirror, Mirror”, and “Day of the Dove”. A lot of classical SF is like that, e.g. Flowers for Algernon or The Shrinking Man. I personally love this type of story, but it probably isn’t for everyone.
197, sorry, but your original claim is
“As David Gerrold has said,the Enterprise shouldn’t be a cosmic Mary Worth.”
Your quote is:
“The Enterprise is cosmic ‘Mary Worth’ meddling her way across the galaxy, solving problems as she goes.”
Two very different statements. The first is a reliance on a statement of opinion of what the Enterprise should be, the other is statement of fact what the Enterprise is. You still lack in support for your claim of the former. If you want, you can always consult David Gerrold though, he’s still alive. You can get a direct response from him. Of course, all it’ll do is help you understand him better, he’s got no authority over this episode at all, as he didn’t write it, I believe the credits are to Gene Coon and Robert Hamner. They can’t be consulted directly, being deceased, but I suppose you might find some writing from them that is contemporary.
Moving on, actually, yes, Fox must have had orders off screen:
FOX: I have my orders, Captain, and now you have yours. You will proceed on course. Achieve orbit status and just leave the rest to me. You’re well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it. You will proceed on course. That’s a direct order.
FOX: This is a diplomatic matter. If you check your regulations, you’ll find that my orders get priority.
Kirk also agreed:
Captain’s log, stardate 3192.5. Now in standard orbit around planet Eminiar Seven. My orders are clear. We must establish diplomatic relations at all cost. Preparing to beam down to planet surface.
There’s nothing in the episode to indicate that Fox’s orders are false documents, that he’s an impersonator, or that he’s acting outside the scope of his authority. If you want that, you’ll want to use another episode. There are five that come to mind, but we don’t even have any evidence that Kirk did not do his due diligence in verifying the ambassador’s bonafides, unlike the scene with Scotty checking out the voice match for an impersonator, there’s nothing in the episode with Kirk calling back to Starfleet and asking about it.
Fox says he has orders. Kirk obeys them. That’s all we’ve got.
In any case, what you’re neglecting is the Eminiarans made it Kirk’s business, by directly seeking to involve him in their war. It is possible, though not certain that the Vendikarans did, as they might have accidentally attacked the Enterprise as a result of their attack, rather than deliberately doing so. Unlike Anan 7, we have no indication their actions were intentional.
After all, they do not appear in the episode directly, so we can’t judge them. They may be able to offer an innocent explanation. We can, however, judge Anan 7, because he does appear, he does engage in coercion, deception, and violent action. And no, he cannot protest about the Federation acting as if they were “knowing better” without being a hypocrite as he himself asserts that is the case about himself as he uses it as justification for his actions. All of which are nonetheless ineffective.
Sorry, but he’s just a failure as a leader. He takes no action that achieves his ends, and instead, puts his own planet at risk. He’s very lucky, though, that the Federation would rather offer their services as a peaceful intercessory than demand the complete and utter surrender of both parties for engaging in war against their vessels, violating diplomatic protocol, and otherwise starting hostilities. And he’s lucky that Kirk managed to effect his alternative stratagem, and obviate the General Order.
But it’s Anan 7’s own fault. He even knew the Enterprise was a superior vessel. He chose poorly in his course of conduct. It provided no apparent means of achieving his ends.
I never said Fox didn’t receive orders. I was addressing your assertion that they came from an incompetent buracrat. Ambassadors aren’t sent out by some low level pencil pusher.
so, regardless of being an independent entity with no ties to the Federation, when a more powerful force shows up, they are simply supposed to roll over and give them whatever they want? And as for violating diplomatic protocol, you don’t ignore a demand to stay away and you don’t cross a border without permission. But the Federation has superior firepower and they’re not afraid to use it so they don’ Have to follow the rules. Peace through superior firepower and all that. A very Trumpian way of running things.
199, I’m going to go with what you put at the end of the post, the “Code 710” business as you’re almost hitting on it, but even beyond not knowing definitively who sent it, we don’t know what that code says, we only have what Kirk claims it means. Yet Kirk is clearly accepting the the Ambassador’s orders as legitimate. Therefore, Kirk must be in error when he says “no circumstances what so ever”and his log note even claims his orders are clear.
No need to worry about world-building, it’s a problem of dialogue writing. As I noted, the choice of words even made it look like the Ambassador had no familiarity with what seems to be a standard code, and you could even argue that Uhura’s relaying was at fault. However, she did say it was a message from Eminiar VII, so you can’t say it is more likely from the Valiant leaving a beacon. You also can’t it wasn’t from direct broadcast since they could have sent one message, and then stopped communicating.
You can, however, say it makes Anan 7 look dumb for not communicating that the Enterprise needs to stay out of orbit or it’ll become a legitimate target in their war.
But no, I wouldn’t call it a matter of world-building, I’d call it a matter of dialogue. You can still attribute it to hastiness, and I won’t say you’re wrong in general, but I speculate that root of the problem was the desire to make Captain Kirk look like the Golden Boy by giving him the moral straight-lines while the Ambassador is forced to play the heavy.
The thing is, it also made him look dumb, because apparently he’s wrong. Superior orders do apply.
202, then you have to ask yourself, is the Federation obligated to roll over and give Anan 7 whatever he wants?
He too, should consider his own behavior.
Especially since, even aside from the morality of the Federation, his actions would utterly fail if applied to Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Feregni, Breen, Orions, Sheliak, and the like. He’s risking his entire civilization.
You’re overlooking my earlier post now — the in-story issue isn’t a question of either Kirk or Fox being wrong, it’s a case where Kirk has two sets of legitimate orders which are in direct conflict with one another. Wherever the standardized “Code 710” protocol comes from (and it is standardized, else there wouldn’t be a number attached to it), Kirk recognizes it as proper authority. Yet he also recognizes Fox and his orders — and, implicitly, the orders Fox has received from farther up the chain of authority — as also being legitimate. In such a case, Kirk has a judgment call to make, and he makes the decision that Fox’s orders carry greater weight in the specific circumstances he’s been given.
And there’s no good reason that the civilian Ambassador Fox should have detailed familiarity with Starfleet order codes, particularly those which may date back several decades. (No matter who broadcast the specific signal Kirk receives, knowledge of the Code 710 protocol pretty much has to have come from the Valiant.)
As to the question of whether the dialogue is badly written: I’d say simply that the dialogue as written and aired raises questions that the script doesn’t answer. But that’s true of dialogue in every episodic TV drama ever produced, and I think it puts an unfair burden on TV writers in general to expect them to have thought of answers to questions we as fans are asking half a century later. (Not that we shouldn’t be asking those questions; that, as I’ve suggested earlier, is part of the ongoing game of filling in the inevitable blank spots in the history of an increasingly large, sprawling, hugely detailed story universe. But who knew in the late 1960s that the Trek franchise was going to become that big?)
Guys, this is a comment thread about “Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad.” There’s a whole comments section actually devoted to “A Taste of Armageddon,” and I’d like to respectfully ask all parties involved in this conversation to take it there.
https://www.tor.com/2015/08/19/star-trek-the-original-series-rewatch-a-taste-of-armageddon/
Thank you!
—Keith
205, per the request in 206, I’ll refrain from further comment unless you want to move to the other post.
Thank you, krad.
So …. spoilers for the rest of the season ahead …
One of the things that has always characterized Harry from his first appearance is his tendency to be “frenemies” with the crew. Sure, they got in the way of his schemes, but he wished them no real harm.
With that in mind, I posit that it’s possible that, in the second-to-last time jump, he leaves Tyler dead because he knows he’s a Klingon … After all, he’s had some dealings with the Klingons (possibly even L’Rell) in setting up the deal …
@209/Twels: Even so, I find it hard to believe that the Harry Mudd we know from TOS/TAS could ever be capable of the kind of casual killing seen in this episode, let alone the extreme sadism of the way he killed Tyler, regardless of who he believed or knew his victim to be. Killing is not a casual thing, something you can just turn on the ability to do with the “right” target. To kill with ease requires either long experience at killing or psychopathy. Neither of those is at all consistent with Harry’s character in TOS/TAS.
Although – come to think of it – my theory may be faulty because he’d probably killed the same number of people in the cargo area as he did on the opening of the episode.
#210: Maybe not…but (and I can’t think why I’d not really considered this till now) consider the episode title. Might we attribute some of Harry’s violent behavior here to literal madness induced in one way or another by his extended interaction with the time-shifting tech?
@212/John: Well, as I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, “Mudd’s Women” did say Harry had been through rehabilitation of limited efficacy, but it didn’t sound like it was for anything this extreme.
As with a lot of things in Discovery, I have to wonder why they simply couldn’t create something new instead of going for the ‘brand name,’ so to speak. If Harry Mudd isn’t a vicious killer, then, uh, make a new character with a vicious streak, okay.
Not that I have anything against expanding the stories of familiar characters, but it seems like this season asked too much of the audience to go along with. I felt exhausted after watching it.
@213: it seems to me that that rehabilitation line gives enough cover for Harry’s actions here. That said, in the final go-round, it is possible that Harry doesn’t kill anyone that time (they may have cleared a path for Mudd the moment the gormagander was brought on board). Certainly, they don’t act like he’s just shot up the hangar bay when he gets to the bridge – and one would think if he’d blasted the doctor and other crew that they’d be coming at him for murder rather than letting him go with Stella and Baron Grimes.
Also, Harry’s schemes in both his TOS appearances had the possibility of people getting killed even if he wasn’t the one who did it. Also, if I recall correctly, he does physically overpower Nurse Chapel in the animated Series episode, so it’s not like he’s a stranger to violence.
Harry is definitely less “lovable” and more “rogue” than say, Cyrano Jones.
@215/Twels: Yes, Harry’s a bit more villainous than Cyrano, but it’s a big step from stunning a nurse and taking her hostage to escape and calmly, casually murdering dozens of people like a chubby Rambo. I don’t care how you rationalize it after the fact, it’s a deeply incongruous storytelling choice. While I feel Discovery has relied far too heavily on continuity porn, the fact remains that the goal of bringing back familiar characters is to have them feel, well, familiar. So having them act egregiously out of character and forcing us to bend over backward to reconcile the new with the old just seems like a very strange and problematical way to do such a story.
@216: I guess I’m not sure that this is as out of character for Harry as you think it is. But even so, we are also dealing with what Harry was like a full decade before he met Kirk and crew. Perhaps domesticity with Stella is what caused him to “only” engage in prostitution, large-scale fraud, drug sales, grand theft starship and a plot to enslave all of humanity.
@217/Twels: For me, it’s not just about whether the change can be explained in-story (since anything can), but whether it was a good idea to make that change in the first place. For half a century, we’ve seen Harry Mudd as an endearing, basically harmless rogue, and Kirk and the crew treated him that way. If we now have to believe that he was a cold-blooded, sociopathic killer this whole time, capable of something as obscenely sadistic as the way he killed Tyler in the penultimate loop, that makes him a far darker and more malevolent character, and one who’s enormously harder to like or forgive for his crimes. The heck with continuity — that’s hardly the only level that matters when talking about fiction. What matters more is how a story makes us feel, the ideas it puts in our heads. Making Mudd a casual killer radically changes the way I feel about him, the idea I have of him. It changes him from a jolly nuisance into a supervillain. It makes him not funny anymore. I think that was, creatively, an utterly wrong decision.
{lightbulb}
Ah, but that’s the thing; I’d submit that Harry Mudd per se has never been all that funny in the first place. We simply think of him as a relatively benign rogue because the Mudd episode everyone remembers is “I, Mudd” — and even though that episode was a brilliantly executed farce, even in it, Harry is at least as sinister as he is funny. And, for that matter, exactly as committed to overkill as he is in Discovery. Given the ability to create first a line of sex-toy androids, and then a line of Stellas for the express purpose of committing spousal abuse in absentia, Harry doesn’t create one or a dozen for his personal use; he commissions hundreds. Just as he did in “Mudd’s Women”, and as he will later in “Mudd’s Passion”, Harry treats women not only as property, but as creatures to be manipulated to his own ends. The Mudd of “I, Mudd” is funny because the overall situation is so over-the-top it’s become farcical — and because everyone else is also being written with comedy in mind. Just as Spock’s usually sober characterization in “I, Mudd” is stretched like a rubber band to allow him to take part in the slapstick, Mudd’s usual edgier, nastier side is muted in favor of a tone more consistent with that of the episode as a whole.
Viewed in that light, the Mudd of this episode is entirely consistent with the one we see “later on” — a dangerous loner who will always, always put his own interests first and who is best not trusted unless he’s under constant close observation (and then only with extreme caution).
@219/John C. Bunnell: Nobody is hurt in “I, Mudd”. Mudd’s sinister plan essentially consists of imprisoning the Enterprise crew on a pleasure planet. And he didn’t commission a line of Stellas; Kirk did.
@219/John C. Bunnell: You can throw the word “overkill” around, but it still means something profoundly different when the “kill” part is literal.
As for “Mudd’s Women,” people tend to overlook that Eve, Ruth, and Magda were portrayed as willing partners in the fraud, not mere property. Okay, their pseudo-dependency on the Venus drug complicates that (although they apparently had no real withdrawal symptoms, merely an intense unwillingness to be unattractive), but the intent appeared to be that at least Ruth and Magda were “golddiggers,” the old stereotype of women readily using their charms to get rich by seducing wealthy men. Eve was the member of the gang who had moral qualms about tricking their marks and refused to go along with it. It’s not like they were slaves. (Kirk: “They can get out of it.” Mudd: “If they want to.”)
More importantly, look at how Kirk treats Harry at the end of “Mudd’s Women.” He isn’t hauling Mudd away at phaserpoint. They’re standing together almost amiably, united in their concern for the women and their appreciation of what Eve has achieved for herself, and Kirk jokes with Mudd about being a character witness at his trial. That humorous ending is what tells us that Mudd is basically harmless, and lays the foundation that “I, Mudd” then expands on.
And, come on, “spousal abuse?” Harry built the one and only Stella android in keeping with his perception of her as the abusive one, the perpetually henpecking shrew that drove him out into space (clearly a self-serving, revisionist take on the reality, as we now see), and the only thing he ever did to the Stella android was say “Shut up” and have it stick — something he was presumably never able to do in real life. Again, you have to consider these episodes in the context of the gender attitudes of the time, and the stereotype of the meek, long-suffering husband being perpetually hectored by his domineering harridan of a wife was a common source of humor. Sexist, yes, but not abusive. And it’s a stereotype that puts the husband in the submissive role, which is why it was a basis for humor, because it subverted the way things were “supposed” to be between husband and wife. That was actually a pretty common source of humor about married life back in the day — the contrast between the cultural ideal of male dominance and the reality that wives tended to be the ones in real control of their families and households. The Honeymooners was an archetypal illustration of this. Ralph may have constantly threatened to hit Alice, but she and the audience knew he never, ever would, which was why they were willing to put up with him.
Harry Mudd is totally unscrupulous and dishonest but he is neither vicious nor violent. The Discovery episode depicts as both.
Mudd’s women are very much willing partners in the scam. Magda and Ruth are clearly getting off on the power their beauty gives them. Eve thought she’d enjoy being incredibly beautiful and desirable too, that why she signed up. But the reality isn’t as much fun as she thought it would be. She’s finding the constant attention and drooling invasive and embarrassing. What really strikes me though is when one of Mudd’s women runs out into a life threatening storm Mudd runs after her. And don’t forget his heartfelt ‘Thank God you found her.’
And don’t forget Mudd’s Androids turn out to be playing him all along. Mudd’s plots and scams never seem to actually work. He’s kind of ineffectual.
@222/roxana: Exactly. Harry’s all bluster and bombast, but his criminal schemes usually backfire and end him up in jail or on the run from the angry people he fleeced. He’s a feckless bumbler. The ruthless, cunning, violent criminal mastermind in this episode is a profoundly different character.
Still enjoyed it, but this so far in my personal watch of this series, this is my least favorite episode. The Tyler character doesn’t ring true for me. He seems more like he’s been 3 years in a fraternity recently rather than six months being tortured by the Klingons. Burnham is convinced by Stamets that the ship is in danger and there are less than 30 minutes to spare, yet she finds time to get all moon-eyed with Tyler on the Dance Floor. That does not sound like the same person who physically attacked her previous Captain in a desperate, foolhardy attempt to save her previous ship not all that long ago. The Mudd character is a murderous, thieving criminal and they just let him go? Sorry, but this episode feels like a step backward….