It really does suck to be Michael Burnham.
I mean, first you had the whole thing with her parents being killed, and then she was raised on a planet that isn’t exactly kind and benevolent toward humans (or much of anybody), she got screwed out of going to Vulcan Space School, and then she got her captain and about 8000 other people killed in an incident that started a brutal war. And then she got herself assigned to a ship run by a loony with PTSD whose first officer is her former shipmate who hates her living guts.
And all of that is as nothing compared to the crap she goes through in “The Wolf Inside.” I got dinged last week for not putting up sufficient spoiler alerts, so SPOILER ALERT! LOTSA SPOILERS FOR “THE WOLF INSIDE” IN THIS POST! ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE!
The revelations do come fast and furious this week. All speculation about Voq and Tyler is put to rest, as it’s established that yes, Ash Tyler was taken prisoner by the Klingons, but Voq was then surgically altered to look like him and they superimposed Tyler’s memories and personality over Voq’s. Tyler’s personality was strong enough for a while to keep Voq in check, even after L’Rell spoke the key phrase last week, but when Tyler and Burnham meet the leader of the resistance against the Terran Empire, and it turns out to be Voq, it all breaks down. Voq sees himself working with Andorians, Tellarites, and Vulcans, and it’s like seeing himself betrayed. He attacks mirror-Voq, jeopardizing Burnham’s covert mission to save the resistance while maintaining her cover.
And one member of that resistance is Sarek of Vulcan. With a goatee, of course, thus continuing the tradition started by Spock in “Mirror, Mirror” and continued by Soval in “In a Mirror, Darkly,” of Vulcans with facial hair. Sarek’s mind-meld with Burnham enables her to save the rebels and save face with the empire, and also give the bearded Sarek hope for the future by seeing the mainline universe and its United Federation of Planets.
But with the reassertion of Voq’s personality, Burnham’s life falls apart. Tyler earlier said that Burnham was his tether—analogizing her to the tether they used in flight school for cadets flying ships for the first time—and he was hers as well as she navigated this horrible alternate timeline. Then, not only does she learn that her lover is really a Klingon spy, but he’s the guy she fought on the ship of the dead when she killed T’Kuvma and Georgiou was killed. Oh, and he admits to killing Culber, a revelation that shocks Burnham to her core because Saru hasn’t actually informed her that Culber’s dead. (Understandably so, as it would distract her from her mission, but damn. Burnham makes up for it by not telling Saru that his counterpart is her slave in the MU.)
Then at the end, Burnham’s attempt to save the resistance by giving them time to escape before bombarding the planet is done in by the appearance of the emperor. The imperial vessel bombs the crap out of the planet, possibly killing mirror-Sarek—and then we find out that the “faceless” emperor is, in fact, Philippa Georgiou.
I have to admit that I was hoping that Georgiou would be the emperor. I know speculation has been flying fast and furious about who the emperor might be, and there were plenty of strong possibilities, but Georgiou always had the inside track in my mind because it would cause the maximum angst for our main characters.
And the moment of revelation is superb—made more so by Michelle Yeoh not being listed in the opening credits as she was in her other three appearances to preserve the surprise.
With all that, though, Burnham never loses sight of the mission—and of who she is. As great as the moment is when Georgiou’s image appears on the I.S.S. Shenzhou‘s bridge, it’s not the crowning moment of awesome in the episode. That honor is reserved for Saru when Tyler/Voq—after being beamed out into space on Burnham’s order as punishment for trying to kill Burnham—is beamed aboard Discovery and put under arrest. They may be in the Universe Of Evil, but they’re still on a mission of peace and they’re still in the business of saving lives rather than taking them. That’s why Burnham beamed down to the resistance base under the cover of gaining intelligence about the rebels before destroying them, so she could save lives. And even though she condemns Voq/Tyler to death, even going so far as to operate the transporter herself, she uses that to save lives. After placing the data disc with the encrypted intelligence on the Defiant in Tyler’s uniform under cover of punching him, she beams him away herself, solidifying her position as captain of the Shenzhou while giving Saru and the others a chance to decrypt the intel safely.
When Voq bitches about being captured instead of dying with honor, Saru has that great moment: “We are stranded in a cruel anarchic world, but we are still Starfleet. We still live and die by Federation law.” I grinned when Georgiou appeared, but I cheered when Saru said this line, delivered to absolute perfection by Doug Jones, who remains the unheralded rock star of this show.
More to the point, though, is that our heroes are just that: heroes. Burnham and Saru are both working hard to save lives. (Even mirror-Saru, a slave, maintains his nobility, as he saves Burnham from being killed by Voq.)
Well, some of them are. Lorca’s instinct is for Burnham to follow orders and destroy the rebel base from orbit. (“It’s the only way to be sure” says the ghost of Ellen Ripley.) It’s Burnham who has to remind him that they’re still Starfleet, something that Lorca’s first officer knows and that his disgraced mutineer specialist knows, so why doesn’t he? There’s still way too much we don’t know about Gabriel Lorca, and we’re running out of episodes to find out what his deal is.
Luckily, there’s plenty else to chew on here. Besides the ongoing MU mishegoss and Burnham’s soul being chewed on by rabid ferrets, we have poor Paul Stamets. Tilly and Saru figure out how to cure him, but then he seems to die. Of course, my wife and I both remembered that the tardigrade went into hibernation, so why didn’t Tilly or Saru recall it? Or the medical staff who came in to try to revive him? (I’m also disappointed that we only saw Tilly as Cadet Tilly and never once as Captain Killy, because seriously, that was awesome. Maybe next week…)
But of course Stamets survived because Anthony Rapp is in the opening credits, and while Discovery has left us a nice big trail of dead bodies, up to Culber last week, it’s been all people listed as guest stars, not stars. Not only is Stamets still alive, but as we see him in the mindscape of the mycelial network, he encounters his MU counterpart. So next week, we’ll get to see Stamets talking to himself…
I can say without a doubt that this is the best episode of Discovery so far, and this episode has been the best use of the Mirror Universe since its first appearance five decades ago. (DS9‘s forays were entertaining funhouse-mirror looks, but only one or two of them had any gravitas, and Enterprise‘s two-parter was a consequence-free tale that had no stakes for the actual characters we cared about.) The best stories are the ones where our heroes are challenged and still come out ahead. Burnham’s incredibly difficult journey to redemption has been the through-line of this first season of a new Trek, and this week has been the most thrilling part of that journey to date. This is also the episode that has me most anticipating next week, but that’s purely because we’ll get a whole hour of Michelle Yeoh being badass, and I’d be on board for that in any context anywhere.
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Oh I think we have a pretty good idea about what’s going on with Lorca by now, don’t we? Discovery isn’t the most subtle show around, so that fan theory is probably true. Why not? Just about every other theory has been proven true.
Hm. Maybe I was just too tired when I watched this one, because, while I really do like the idea of Starfleet crews having to spend an extended time in the MU without “losing their souls” as a concept, the main impression I had of this hour was So Much Talking. All the time, with the Talking and the Exposition.
But there were many cool moments in this one, all the same. Slave Saru getting his name from Burnham, even if she didn’t mean to do it. The revelation that both Burnham and “Prime” Saru were hiding information from each other in order to spare each other. Burnham’s very Trek (and so very correct) decision to spare Ash/Voq, but not before he got a taste of consequences – that felt very real and true for her as a character in that moment. And, of course, this is still the most cinematically gorgeous Star Trek we have ever seen, big screen or small.
I’m with you – not enough “Captain Killy,”
I am really looking forward to watching the whole first season back to back once the story is finished. I hope we’re setting ourselves up for more actual discovery in season two – I hadn’t noticed it until someone pointed it out, but we spend an awful lot of time on board starships in this series and not enough going to strange new worlds (the notable exception of course being Christie Golden’s episode). I am NOT a Discovery hater, or even a disliker… but it just sure feels weird.
Mike: Kirsten Beyer wrote “Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum,” not Christie Golden. (An honest mistake, as both have written post-finale Voyager prose fiction.)
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@3/krad – My bad! Thanks for the correction. Egg on my Trekkie face!
I have so many feelings about this episode of Discovery, and even this entire mirror-universe arc. Even at moments that I have lots of negative reaction to, like Culber’s murder, or… most everything about Tyler, the series seems to be adamantly working toward something really considerate, and I feel as if it’s obvious when you see it.
One of the better ones, probably my favorite so far after “Lethe.” Good character work and effective story progress, good use of the Mirror Universe as a backdrop against which to reaffirm the Starfleet values that have sometimes been hard to find in this show. Although a lot of the dialogue got overly speechy, stilted, and pretentious. Man, that “tether” analogy was clumsy.
As for Georgiou being the Emperor, I’m surprised there were any other candidates considered. It was obvious from the get-go. Nobody else would’ve had as much character impact for Burnham, except maybe Sarek, but the preview for “The Wolf Inside” gave away that he was with the rebels.
Hmm… I wonder how we get from a racist Empire where Sarek is a rebel traitor to an Empire a dozen years later where Sarek’s son is the first officer of the ISS Enterprise. I suspect we’ll see a political change within the Empire next week (assuming that’s the conclusion of this arc).
So now we know what Discovery Andorians and Tellarites look like. The Andorians are a pretty conservative redesign, basically a cross between the TOS and ENT makeups but with some pointy cheekbone spurs added. Tellarites, though, are apparently warthog people now.
I am getting tired of this show constantly breaking one of Roddenberry’s rules from TOS: Don’t treat deep space as a local neighborhood. In TOS, starships generally needed days or weeks to get from system to system, but DSC routinely has starships and even shuttles hopping all over the Federation in a matter of hours, making it unclear why they even need spore drive. When Burnham got orders to attack the rebel base, Detmer ordered torpedoes loaded immediately as if they were already in orbit. That made no sense.
I’m also getting tired of the “bodies in vacuum freeze instantly” trope. Anyone who’s ever owned a Thermos should know that vacuum is an insulator! You lose heat more slowly in vacuum than you do in air or water, because there’s no medium to conduct or convect heat away. That’s why spacesuits and orbiting ships and stations need cooling systems, not heating systems. Yes, “space is cold,” but only in the parts that have had time to cool off completely. In direct sunlight, space is actually pretty damn hot.
Random thoughts:
Are we really sure Discovery started out in the TOS universe? What if that’s where they end up after escaping the MU? There’s no references in the later set series of a mycelial network.
Unless (as someone mentioned elsewhere) you tie in to someone like Gary Mitchell. His silver eyes are similar to Stamets cloudy eyes. Mitchell’s story involved the Galactic Barrier (more invented ST astrophysics), which is later connected to the Q continuum.
So, what if the mycelial network is what the continuum looks like and tardigrades are the Qs natural form? May even explain the TNG pilot with humans put on trial by Q.
Also, how about Lorca’s face when he sees the Emperor’s projection. There’s more to tell there.
The galactic barrier was never connected to the Q-Continuum on screen, that was just one novel, Pete David’s Q-Squared. And another set of novels, Greg Cox’s Q-Continuum trilogy, established the barrier as having nothing to do with Q.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I think the key to there being no mention of the mycelial network in any of the other series lies in how they plan to get out of the Mirror verse. If they leave the same way the Defiant came in, logically, it would send them to the Prime universe, but 100 years in the future. That would place them around 10 – 15 years after the end of VOY unless I’m mistaken. This would solve all of the “why didn’t Kirk and crew know this if DSC did it first” questions. Also, if the USS Discovery was lost and it was determined that the Spore Drive was to blame, they could have scrapped the project. How much did you hear about Transwarp Drive after the USS Excelsior proved to be a failure? I would personally like this as it would get us to the Post-Voyager timeframe with these characters, whom I think are great.
Oh look. Disused gravel quarry planet. How very 1970s-Doctor Who. :)
Why would the Alliance deactivate the active camouflage at their camp if they knew a Terran Empire ship was overhead? Why would they allow Burnham and Tyler to beam up from their doorstep, which would surely reveal their location to the transporter scanners?
I’m really perplexed: Tyler/Voq attacks Burnham in her quarters on M-Shenzhou, he’s arrested by the M-crew and marched directly to the transporter to be executed, Burnham sneaks the red data plaque into his empty holster, he’s retrieved by Discovery — and is arrested at gunpoint. When did Discovery learn either (a) that he killed Culber (their conclusion earlier in the episode is that Stamets had done so, in his delirium) or (b) that he was a disguised Klingon agent? Burnham didn’t have any spare moments to covertly notify them. A plan to “stage an attack, and we’ll use your execution to transfer the Defiant data to Discovery” would’ve been clever, but this one was just impromptu.
Earlier in the episode, when the first three Shenzhou crew were beamed into space “for having treasonous thoughts towards the Empire,” I thought, “wouldn’t blowing them out the airlock be cheaper?” And then it transpires that the practice affords an opportunity for Discovery to retrieve Tyler.
The whole idea of M-Stamets and his discovery of the mycelial network seems odd — the Terran Empire doesn’t feel like a place that rewards pure research, and how would a research team even work? (“Gee, my doctoral advisor stepped into this lethal laser beam. It must’ve been a careless accident.”) But maybe the cutthroat word of M-Starfleet isn’t actually representative of the wider Empire, despite the broad impressions given by the salvaged Alliance data core?
I’ll bet Michelle Yeoh is going to relish strutting about in golden imperial robes with a sword.
This episode was just frustrating. Burnham is someone who has been raised by Vulcans to conceal her feelings. Therefore, why does she find it so difficult to conceal her feelings on the Mirror ship. This should be second nature to her. Also, that Voq decides to just reveal who he is in an incredibly disappointing way to to reveal who he is. Why couldn’t we see Burnham intelligently put the pieces together? Also, I’m sorry bu Sonequa Martin-Green really has trouble when she has to act emotional. She always gets distractingly wide-eyed which comes off as somewhat comical. Finally, I was puzzled about why she was interested in mirror Voq’s ability to work with other species. Obviously, when one is dealing with a genocidal enemy, then it becomes easy to work together. I’m not sure why she couldn’t grasp this for herself.
@9/Jason – Refresh my memory (because I must be missing something, either here or from the MU eps of ENT) – Why is it logical that DSC would return to the prime universe 100 years in their future?
@10/phillip_thorne: “Earlier in the episode, when the first three Shenzhou crew were beamed into space “for having treasonous thoughts towards the Empire,” I thought, “wouldn’t blowing them out the airlock be cheaper?””
I thought they were just going to dematerialize them and disperse their atoms into space, like what was done with Hengist/Redjac at the climax of “Wolf in the Fold” (hey, another “Wolf” title). People tend to forget that a transporter is basically a reversible disintegrator ray. Just skip the reassembly part and you’ve got a devastating weapon. And in that case, using a transporter for execution might be done for the terror value.
12. MikePoteet, If the Defiant went through the time/universe portal in the Prime universe in 2260* (Tholian Web) and came out in the Mirror verse in 2160* (In a Mirror, Darkly), wouldn’t it stand to reason that if the left the Mirror verse in 2250 that they would come out in the Prime verse in 2350? I admit, I could be completely wrong and this may just be me wanting to get this crew to the Post-Voyager timeline.
*I’m guestimating the years*
Heh the irony of the best moment being seeing people act kind to ultimate evil rather than destroying it (which is a more reasonable response to me) and not being able to wait until next week to see someone act as ultimate evil. Heh. Good to see people are enjoying discovery though and a post about it that harps on something other than how the most diverse good show around is not diverse enough.
@9: I like that theory, and it would be one of the few things that might redeem the show for me (except the Klingons, I still think that was a horrible redesign). Don’t necessarily believe it will happen, but I like it.
8. krad: Re: Greg Cox’s Q-Continuum trilogy
This sounds like it would be right up my alley; a series involving ST’s cosmic “gods.”
@14/Jason: They’re not going to return to the future. Burnham asked Mirror Voq what it would take for Klingons to pursue peace with other races, and Voq answered that unifying the Klingon Great Houses was the first step. They wouldn’t have included that scene if it weren’t intended to pay off toward a resolution of the war arc. As I see it, Burnham will return to the Prime timeline with this new insight into the Klingons, and will use it to help guide the Great Houses toward unity, probably with help from Tyler/Voq. And thus she’ll end the war she started and thereby redeem herself to Starfleet.
@10 Yep that was my first thought too, “hey, it’s an alien quarry planet!”. Mind you, I seem to recall a crossover with the Doctor and the Enterprise. Along with the Who references in AoS this week, that funny alien with their magic blue box does seem to turn up everywhere :)
@1, DIS does seem eminently predictable. When all your stunning twists are guessed well ahead of time by the fans you got a problem.
‘We’re Starfleet.’ Could have fooled me.
20. I suppose that’s the trap of serialization, the over-reliance on mysteries and twists. Not that I don’t like mysteries, but when one is handled as obviously as Tyler/Voq, I’d prefer if they were just upfront about it. A story seen from the POV of a conscience Klingon sleeper agent would’ve been more interesting to me, seeing him learn how humans really live and becoming conflicted from it. Would’ve been more Trekish anyway.
@18 – “Sure, you started a war that’s killed who knows how many people on both sides. But at least you learned a lesson. Here’s your captains bars. Welcome back to Starfleet”.
Sounds about right.
How can the STD claim to have its characters still be Starfleet when they never started there in the first place. Not to mention the reason claimed for the STD being a prequel (and having the whooshy JJ-verse graphics and stage lighting) was to avoid the dreaded fanwank continuity of the post-DS9 universe. Yet here we are in something that is far more wank than any of the alleged proposed post DS9/VOY pitches. They ought to have taken up Macfarlane and had ORV being the official next Trek instead of just being a spiritual successor to the show.
I’m having a bit of dissonance trying to rectify this mirror universe with the TOS mirror universe, and further matter the quasi canonical eu mirrorverse which seems to line up with the mirror-verse in ds9. (Which includes our very own KRAD contribution) which suggests that Spock rose to emperor and disbanded the terran empire. My dissonance is Sarek and the vulcand, who are rebels here, but part of the empire in TOS. The only thing that makes sense is that while this is *a* mirror universe, it is not the one we went to earlier. Rather it is a few degrees off to what we knew previously- after all the number of universes is essentially intimate.
So what do we think? Is this deliberately not the same MU that “our” Kirk know, or is it just the writers/producers playing fast and loose with timeline and canon? If that’s the case, while several episodes-this one included- are great, then the series damages the franchise as a whole.
@24/MikeKelm: The makers of the show are under no obligation to respect any of the tie-in books’ or comics’ versions of the Mirror Universe (of which the ongoing Pocket version is just one of many). There is no “EU” in the sense that Star Wars nominally had one, no single continuity across all tie-ins. The main line of books does one thing, other books do other things, the comics do their own things, the computer games and role-playing games their own, etc. The only Mirror Universe that the makers of the TV show have to worry about is the one in the other TV shows. And so far, there’s no explicit discrepancy between this and “Mirror, Mirror,” except that somehow the Empire’s attitude toward Vulcans needs to soften somewhat in the next 11 years, as I mentioned in comment #6.
That being said, so far there aren’t any fundamental conflicts with the Pocket novel continuity’s MU that can’t be papered over. The books show 2260s-70s Sarek as a loyal imperial subject whom Spock has to talk into supporting rebellion, which seems hard to reconcile with this. But assuming Sarek survives, and if I’m right that there will be some sort of change in the Empire’s policies or leadership that ends up with Vulcans in a better place, that could lead to the books’ situation where Sarek is less willing to make waves — perhaps in part because of the near-destruction of his previous rebellion. There’s also an apparent discrepancy in who rules the Empire, but fortunately this storyline happens to fall in a gap between the novel continuity’s mentions of its Empresses, so there’s room for the throne to change hands back and forth in the interim. Although next week’s outcome could introduce more fundamental contradictions.
And no, playing fast and loose with the timeline does not “damage the franchise.” Lots of fictional franchises have multiple timelines or incompatible continuities, from Sherlock Holmes to Godzilla to DC Comics to the Ninja Turtles. I’ve never understood why many Star Trek fans are hostile to the idea. None of this is real anyway, so what’s the point in arguing over which unreal stories are more unreal than others?
25. ChristopherLBennett: “None of this is real anyway, so what’s the point in arguing over which unreal stories are more unreal than others?”
That is the meta question. It’s why I don’t get the few commenters on these reviews who spend energy making negative comments, sometimes sounding almost personally bitter.
Human history has a lot of wars about which unreal story is most real, don’t know if you’ve noticed.
It’s kind of a thing for our species.
Was there any reason for Sarek not to mindmeld with Tyler (for instance, that a Vulcan can’t mindmeld more than once a day)? Because he gets convinced Burnham is on their side, then he sees Tyler attack them, Burnham disavows his actions and doesn’t understand them. I’m not sure what conclusions Sarek can draw from that, it would depends on what he learned about Ash Tyler during the mindmeld. But it’s clear Tyler wants the negotiations to fail, and he’s in a good position to achieve that: he just has to tell anyone on the ship that Burnham is betraying them, after which Burnham would have no way to argue that she wants to delay the Emperor’s orders. So it would seem useful to know what his true intentions are, before sending him back to the Shenzhou.
But of course, a mindmeld would be a good way to put both parts of Tyler’s mind at rest, and we can’t have that right now. That’s why I would really like to know if there was any reason for Sarek not to mindmeld with Tyler.
The only reason I was hoping Georgiou wouldn’t be the Emperor is that Sato was the Empress. A woman shouldn’t have to pretend to be a man in order to hold power, not even in the Mirror Universe; there’s no reason not to use the feminine. Or are we back to the days of “Mister Saavik”? (but apart from that title, of course it had to be her: she’s Michelle Yeoh!)
I like where they’re going with Paul Stamets. I mean, once we accept that for some reason, almost everyone exists in all universes despite the enormous differences, and they’re always basically doing the same thing.
@2/Mike: “I hope we’re setting ourselves up for more actual discovery in season two – I hadn’t noticed it until someone pointed it out, but we spend an awful lot of time on board starships in this series and not enough going to strange new worlds.”
I’m with you. I’ve always loved how outdoorsy TOS is, with Kirk and crew constantly walking around on different planets, some of them with strange plantlife and unearthly colourful skies. I want more planets like that! And weird aliens and alien societies! The Kirsten Beyer episode was nice, and also the first scene in the very first episode, except for being too monochromatic (but that’s true for the whole show and is probably not going to change).
“the days of “Mister Saavik””
I wasn’t aware that addressing all officers in a relatively gender neutral fashion was ever a problem. Especially given that some of those officers might come from cultures with more or fewer than 2 genders.
@30, It is a problem because it is not gender neutral at all. it erases the female gender and implies the male gender is or should be the only gender.
“Mister Saavik” really baffled me when TWOK was new. I even considered for a short while that perhaps Saavik was supposed to be male.
@30 “Mister” Saavik is not gender neutral. “Lieutenant” Saavik is, though. There is an idea out there that treating women like they are men is a gender neutral way of doing things, but reverse that and say “treat all men like women” and you suddenly see an acceptance (and a lot of kneejerk outrage from the usual suspects) that it is a sexist way of handling things. Imagine someone addressing Worf as “Miss Worf” or Kirk as “Miss Kirk”, see a gendered title makes it really awkward and uncomfortable. Treat all members of the workforce like other members of the workforce and apply actual non-gender specific titles instead.
This is especially easy in uniformed and ranked employment areas, because the titles are usually already there (policeman-policewoman becomes police constable/officer, fireman-firewoman becomes firefighter, midwife-male midwife becomes delivery nurse, etc). In Starfleet’s case, stop saying mister and just start calling people by their rank. It is right there in their job title already, there is no need to go out of their way to say something else.
Saavik was called “Mister” because (I have been told) in 1982 that was still common naval/military usage, and Nick Meyer was really going hard for that naval/nautical feel for Starfleet. Perhaps that has changed; some quick Googling suggests it is still common in the UK but up for debate there and here in the US. Should that practice change, it will just be one of many things that marks a Trek production as a sign of its times.
@28/Athreeren: “The only reason I was hoping Georgiou wouldn’t be the Emperor is that Sato was the Empress. A woman shouldn’t have to pretend to be a man in order to hold power, not even in the Mirror Universe; there’s no reason not to use the feminine.”
Using a title like “Emperor” doesn’t have to mean “pretending to be a man.” Lots of women prefer not using gendered titles to set them apart. For instance, some female performers would rather be called “actor” than “actress.” The “-or” suffix was masculine in Latin, but English tends to use “-or” or “-er” generically, so words with those endings don’t have to be seen as masculine.
In Georgiou’s case, she apparently keeps her identity a secret, so she uses what would be considered a non-gender-specific title, Emperor, rather than narrowing it down by using an unambiguously feminine title.
@32/Jana: Indeed, early drafts of Star Trek II featured a male Vulcan named Lt. Savik [sic]. They changed the sex and spelling, but kept the title for some reason. (EDIT: And Mike gave the reason just above me.)
@34: This is why I can understand using “mister” in that context, although it was not hard to speculate that this practice would have disappeared long before the 23rd century. I would even be OK with the evil empire always having an emperor as its leader even when a woman occupies the position. What bothers me is that when it is established that the feminine title exists and has been used in that context, it just can’t be considered as neutral anymore to go back to masculine for everyone.
@36/Athreeren: “What bothers me is that when it is established that the feminine title exists and has been used in that context, it just can’t be considered as neutral anymore to go back to masculine for everyone.”
Not at all. Just because some women prefer feminine titles, that doesn’t mean every other woman is required to follow suit. Feminism is about freedom of choice, after all. If different women have different preferences about what titles they want to use, that is absolutely their own personal choice. Especially if they’re the absolute rulers of an empire.
Besides, the one canonical usage of “Empress” in the Mirror Universe was in January 2155, 101 years before this storyline. Usage can change a lot in a century.
@34/Mike: “Nick Meyer was really going hard for that naval/nautical feel for Starfleet.”
Yes, see also the stiff uniforms and people calling “Admiral on the bridge!”. I didn’t get that at the age of fifteen, just that it felt wrong. But of course it couldn’t be wrong, because the creators of Star Trek had done it :)
@36/Athreeren: “[…] although it was not hard to speculate that this practice would have disappeared long before the 23rd century.”
As it had. Uhura and Chapel were called “Miss” in the TV show.
Perhaps Sato wanted to emphasise her gender because it was quite a satisfaction to jump from “Captain’s Woman” to absolute ruler.
Also, the real reason for Georgiou being “Emperor” was obviously that they wanted to try and throw people’s guesses off the track and make them think it was a man.
@39/Crane: Honestly, it didn’t even occur to me that the title implied maleness. Although I can’t seem to find much in the way of prior real or fictional examples of women going by “Emperor.” There are a bunch of articles referring to Wu Zetian as “China’s only female emperor,” but she’s generally known in English as Empress Wu.
On the “Mister Saavik” subject, historically it wasn’t unusual for senior naval officers to refer to junior officers (Ensigns, LT Junior Grade, and LT) as “Mister”. I suspect that in TWOK they were going for that vibe.
I remember wondering about that waaaaay back when TWOK came out.
(my uncle was in the navy. he was a fount of semi-useful knowledge before he passed)
I would like to think that if Saavik had objected, they would have started calling her “Lieutenant” (as they do several times in the film – it just would have been exclusive) or, if she liked, “Miss” (as Jana points out about Chapel and Uhura above).
TWOK was my introduction to the Trek universe. I didn’t become a Trek fan (or, as I unapologetically prefer, Trekkie) until a few years later, but I loved all that paramilitary vibe. I understand now why many fans who’d been with the show since TOS’ first run found it so jarring, even in contrast to the “casual Friday” vibe of Starfleet in TMP. Someone in one of the Best of Trek books at the time speculated there must have been some untold military catastrophe in the UFP in between TMP and TWOK that led to such a ramping up of military protocol.
I’m with Christopher, it did not occur to me that “Emperor” couldn’t be female. If it was meant to throw us off, it didn’t work for me. But DSC doesn’t seem so good about things meant to throw people off. Maybe season 2 can focus a little more on straightforward storytelling. Big reveals work best few and far between in Trek, I think. We’ve had quite a few in the first season alone for DSC. Had it been up to me (strangely, they didn’t ask), I would have had at least the first half-dozen episodes be more or less standalone adventures of the Shenzhou, building up all those characters and their relationships, and then the Battle of the Binary Stars could have been the midseason cliffhanger.
@42/Mike: I’m pretty much the opposite. I love the semi-military vibe of TOS so much that I even find the later TV shows too military at times. The German dubbed version, which I watched as a child, toned down the military aspect even more, by translating e.g. “Dismissed” with “You may go”. So that’s the Star Trek I fell in love with.
I agree about the Shenzhou, and also about big reveals. I hope there’ll be less of them in the second season, and I hope there won’t be another Federation-wide crisis. I’m a bit worried that serialised TV, just like films, gravitates towards “big” stories too much to be content with mere space exploration.
28. Athereen: “Was there any reason for Sarek not to mindmeld with Tyler (for instance, that a Vulcan can’t mindmeld more than once a day)? Because he gets convinced Burnham is on their side…
Yes, those must/should have been disorienting moments for Sarek. He sees a version of himself as Burnham’s parent, or at least of caring for her, when he knows they’ve never met. And his next move is to say, “She’s alright. You can trust her.” We the audience know that, but he has no reason to trust a vision that doesn’t square with his life experience.
Just like de-cloaking the rebel base so the audience could see it, Sarek’s equanimity doesn’t make much sense in the context of the story itself.
For me, the worst part of this show is the Klingons. These aren’t the swaggering space pirates of TOS (I’m probably thinking Koloth with swaggering there), nor are they the space vikings with an in depth history and culture from TNG or DS9. These Klingons all sound like they are shoving their tongues into the top of their throats. That occured to me when Ash Tyler started talking in Klingon before he got beamed into space. These Klingons sound like they’re trying to choke themselves with their tongues and worst of all, they’re boring. They drag every scene they’re in when they speak in Klingon down with this slow, trying to choke, speech. So what was the point of making them sound this way? Just someone on the production staff wanting to make their mark on Star Trek? Or what? Oh who cares I guess. Dscovery’s team wants the Klingons to sound like they’re choking on their own tongues, then fine. I mean these are the aliens that keep you captivated even when they’re eating. But whatever. Go choke on your damned tongue VOQ!
This episode though! Only surprise for me was the Emperor. And it was a surprise that made me happy by having the ruler of the Terran Empire be an Asian Woman, and who better than Georgiou? And I liked the quick scene where Stamets meets Mirror Stamets in the spore garden of their minds or wherever. Overall it wasn’t terrible IMO, but the ending seemed rushed just so we could get to the Emperor’s reveal.
Discovery isn’t big on subtlety or nuance is it. It seems to try to having shocking reveals that add up to nothing but dull surprise.
27. Crane: “Human history has a lot of wars about which unreal story is most real, don’t know if you’ve noticed.
It’s kind of a thing for our species.”
Brilliant comment. Would upvote if this site had that system.
I belong to the tribe of humans who think any story that has supernatural elements is obviously imaginary. It makes little sense to argue, fight, or go to war over which invented story, or which parts of a made up story, are more “real.”
There have been some commenters hoping that it was Sato who was revealed as the Emperor. However, it would make practical sense that her reign would be relatively brief because of the constant backstabbing and assassinations that occur on a regular basis in the MU. And personally I didn’t like her as she seemed rather full of herself. But then the Terran Empire isn’t exactly chock-full of admirable figures.
Then there’s also the real-world explanation that the Emperor wouldn’t likely be Sato because DSC isn’t yet going the route of bringing on actors to play the roles they did in other Star Trek series. That would be a gimmick most likely saved for later seasons once DSC is firmly established as standing on its own two feet.
@46/Sunspear: Speaking as someone with a history degree, I’m not convinced that humans really do fight wars over religious beliefs that often. “Holy wars” tend to use religion just as an excuse to pursue wealth or territory or political power. Certainly religion has been used as a motivation for systematic persecution, oppression, and mass murder, but that’s ultimately just about power and control. There are just as many instances where religion has inspired people to seek peace or alliance or social justice. Or people of different religions may coexist as neighbors for generations until some new societal or economic factor intervenes to make them redefine each other as enemies, such as poverty or manipulation by an outside oppressor. They only start using religion as an excuse to turn on each other once they’re already afraid or angry or desperate enough to want an excuse to turn on each other. If it weren’t religion, it would be ethnicity or nationality or some other excuse. Religion doesn’t make people good or bad; people make religion good or bad by using it as the excuse for whatever good or bad things they would’ve done anyway.
@39: Yeah, the whole exercise was kind of sloppy like that. Yes, sure, they want to keep the identity of the Emperor/Empress a secret, but that requires the rebels, who have information on practically everybody working in the evil Terran Empire and what ships they’re assigned to, to not know the identity of the single most famous figure. Okay, sure, maybe the leader’s a recluse who only lives on Earth and rules from shadows. But no, they also have the Empress a figure that has their own flagship and wanders around the galaxy and everyone seems to recognize on sight.
I… guess that’s not completely unreconcileable, but it seems pretty weak to me.
@49/ghostly1: Did they recognize her on sight? I think the attacking ship was identified as the Emperor’s flagship before they heard Georgiou’s voice or saw her face. And Burnham and Lorca recognized her because they know her Prime counterpart, and she apparently knows their Mirror counterparts. I don’t think we saw anyone else recognizing her.
@48, I agree with you, CLB. Spreading the Truth to the Infidel is a good pretext for imperialism putting a moralistic spin on it. Or using religion as a pretext for social control, as with the Spanish Inquisition which was much more about the Spanish monarchy’s power than the Church.
@50: May have been an exaggeration, but she didn’t act like someone who was a normally faceless leadership figure that was revealing herself for one rare exception to the rule, she seemed to act like someone who expected to be recognized on sight (the whole ‘don’t you bow’ line), and everyone else seemed to act like, ‘yup, that’s the Emperor all right and totally not a potential imposter,’ no one seemed to have an expression like ‘huh, so that’s what the Emperor looks like.’ Even the notion of having a flagship sounds a lot more hands-on than being a ‘faceless emperor’ that a resistance force would have zero information on, not even their gender. I mean, sure, maybe not their birth name or anything but you’d think there’d at least be an artist’s rendering and brief description just in case one of their agents is in a position to board the flagship while the Emperor’s on it and assassinate or take them prisoner.
A bit about the episode and the show as a whole:
I thought the episode was great (as was Despite Yourself). I was on the edge of my seat for most of it (save for the beginning monologue and Tyler/Burnham scene).
I enjoyed Tilly trying to science Stamets back to reality. Her trying to do so was no crazier than every time any main cast member on any Trek risked their life or others on some crazy scheme to solve the problem of the week. There probably should have been medical staff on hand, but Saru letting her try was not an issue for me, cadet or not. (Wesley got to do all kinds of crazy shit).
I never thought Burnham/Ash had much chemistry, so I don’t care that that relationship is over. I thought SMG played the betrayal well and Latif was masterful as Voq began to break through. When he went into Klingon mode, I had goosebumps!
I think most people are too harsh on Burnham. Aside from the mutiny (a mark on her record for sure), she hasn’t really done anything particularly immoral (and the state of the mutiny is debatable to a degree – probably more arrogant or misguided than immoral). Her killing Connor in the MU was pure self-defense, so critics that point to that didn’t seem to pay proper attention to that scene or its context.
Other thoughts:
I find it sort of humorous that some of the same people (across the Trek boards I read) who cry foul that the so-called twists are too “shocking” also claim that the same twists are “predictable.” Can you be shocked by predictable things? Can I be shocked the sun came up today? I guess if you think the writers think they are being shocking, then they might fall short…
The Ash/Voq reveal was very well done, but unfortunately, it was discussed so heavily in all the Trek places, it was never going to be what they hoped. It was hindered by Latif being first announced as playing a Klingon, which they retracted. The fictional actor listed as playing Voq also hurt things. I also think the weekly release format leaves too much time in this current internet/social media culture to really lay groundwork for longer plots/reveals. Everyone is discussing theories to death.
If DSC had been released all at once, I would have binged it in a couple of days and only read boards after I was done. I would have likely never entertained the notion that Voq was Ash, because I would never have dug into IMDB or fan theories. I wouldn’t have had enough time to think about who the Emperor might be or whether characters might be MU from the start or anything else.
We will never know, I guess. I suppose the cynical answer to why it is weekly is so CBSAA can keep folks on the hook longer. For shows like House of Cards, I usually only get Netflix for the month it comes out, binge it and then cancel. I would have done the same with CBSAA, and I will most certainly drop it after the DSC season ends.
As soon as Georgiou’s hologram appeared, everyone on the bridge saluted AND bowed. They obviously recognized her as being the Emperor. Burnham and Lorca didn’t because they knew her as someone totally different. At least Brunham did. Lorca may have known her as the Emperor but he’s still hiding his potential MU origins.
48. ChristopherLBennett: “people make religion good or bad by using it as the excuse for whatever good or bad things they would’ve done anyway.”
Bad either way. Powerful people seeking control will act out a delusion or cynically use mass delusion to achieve their ends.
No disrespect intended, but there’s a line you will likely never cross, or perhaps even see that it’s a line. To use a ST relevant example: compare Sybok’s rapturous search for “God” to Kirk’s skepticism, “What does God need with a starship?” Taking religion at face value as a real “thing” instead of imaginary construct is not logical.
@53/WTBA: “I find it sort of humorous that some of the same people (across the Trek boards I read) who cry foul that the so-called twists are too “shocking” also claim that the same twists are “predictable.” Can you be shocked by predictable things? Can I be shocked the sun came up today? I guess if you think the writers think they are being shocking, then they might fall short…”
I think the intent in comment #45 (and probably elsewhere) was to use “shocking reveals” sarcastically — to point out that if the producers intend the reveals to be shocking, they’re not doing a very good job of it, because they’re too predictable.
Although part of the problem is that audiences have gotten too used to expecting shows to have big secrets and revelations and things not being what they seem, so they’re actively trying to guess the twists in advance, and that makes it harder to pull off a really unpredictable twist. That’s one of the drawbacks of serialized television — it relies so much on secrets being kept for weeks or months before they’re finally revealed, and as you say, that gives the audience plenty of time to work them out from the clues. Maybe that approach is better suited for a Netflix-style show that drops the whole season in one chunk.
@55 Believing you can go to a geographic location to find God is terrible theology. My suspension of disbelief took a real blow at that point in ST5.
@57 Doesn’t that depend on which deity you are seeking, many gods do have a geographic location.
Many gods have a location. They don’t have exact coordinates!
Can’t say I’ve ever come across a religious person who believed they could pack up and meet God just over the horizon, or through a physical barrier. Sybok was practicing a Heaven’s Gate catch-a-comet level of cult kookiness. And to think of all religions and all religious people in that way is also illogical. That is, if that whole IDIC business really means anything.
princessroxana: the Greek gods live on Mt. Olympus, the Norse gods live in Asgard. Gods living in a particular place is not at all odd
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Asgard wasn’t reachable by humans, and Greeks probably realized that there was no material palace on Olympus. Physical gods are very passe
There are assorted locations that have history that brings you closer to God. But Muslims don’t believe Allah lives in the Kaaba, Christians and Jews don’t believe God can be literally found in Jerusalem.
If God were going to be anywhere, the center of the galaxy seems like a more plausible place than the top of a mountain. Heck, “The Magicks of Megas-tu” posited (based on an old physics theory that was already discredited at the time) that the center of the galaxy was a point where new matter was being created, which is pretty much the secular equivalent of God.
59. Chazwuzzuh: “…And to think of all religions and all religious people in that way is also illogical.”
At least two prominent religions have been invented out of whole cloth in just the past two centuries.
But I’m not talking about religious history or experience; or even physical things, like buildings or locations, that represent a religion. It’s about the content, religion as intellectual property, passed thru oral tradition or surviving texts, which is no different than any other IP, like Star Trek or Star Wars or Game of Thrones (fill in your favorite fictional universe), that elicits emotion from those who consume it. Genre readers especially should be able to recognize how easily a fantasy or space religion can be created.
The comfort and sense of community religions engender (just like GoT or Star Wars fan bases) are real. The underlying IP is pretend (unless one is prepared to absolutely assert the existence of literal supernatural beings). The control and conformity some religions impose is also real. The underlying presumptions of a supernatural or alien imperative are not.
63. Yup, people like to create things and take things too seriously. No argument here.
@57/Roxana: But was the audience even supposed to believe that God has an address? False gods are such a Star Trek trope. I thought that Sybok was clearly misguided, and the story was about how he could get people to follow him anyway.
It bothered me more that apparently every major race in the known galaxy has a personal god and a paradise. Not even all Earth religions are like that.
@65/Jana: “It bothered me more that apparently every major race in the known galaxy has a personal god and a paradise. Not even all Earth religions are like that.”
First off, just because Sybok claimed every culture shared a similar belief, that doesn’t mean he was right. After all, he was a fanatic trying to justify his own belief system, so obviously he was not an unbiased source.
On the other hand, Earth has many different religions, including both theistic and non-theistic ones. Despite Trek’s unfortunate and lazy tendency to portray alien species as culturally monolithic, it stands to reason that any other given species would also have multiple different faiths with a similarly broad spectrum of beliefs. So most major civilizations would probably have some religion in their history that had those features. Even if a planet’s dominant culture doesn’t have such a religion, there may be a subculture that does, or there may have been one in the planet’s history that did.
Indeed, that’s implicitly clear with the Klingons, since the “Qui’Tu” mentioned in ST V as Klingon heaven seems distinct from the Sto-Vo-Kor later established in the shows as part of Kahlessian religion (or whatever it’s called). So Sybok may have been referring to a different Klingon religious tradition, a minority faith or a pre-Kahlessian historical belief system. He was cherrypicking Klingon beliefs for the closest equivalent to his own belief.
@61
That is not as untrue as I’d like it to be. There are a number of evangelical christian sects, and some orthodox Jewish cults which do think there are physical locations where god abides and Jerusalem is one of those places. There are a number of christian cults who think they can get into heaven by discovering the physical location of Eden or other sites mentioned in the bible stories. They might not be mainstream beliefs of those religions/cultures but, they do exist.
@66/Christopher: True, it can be explained. But that isn’t in the film. The film implies that Sybok is right, because when they finally reach the planet, each of the three consuls repeats one of the names he had mentioned: Qui’Tu, Vorta Vor, Eden.
Concerning Klingon religion, it’s also possible that the Klingons have a monolithic religion that contains both Qui’Tu and Sto-Vo-Kor. Qui’Tu is where the world was created, Sto-Vo-Kor is where you go when you die.
@68/Jana: ” The film implies that Sybok is right, because when they finally reach the planet, each of the three consuls repeats one of the names he had mentioned: Qui’Tu, Vorta Vor, Eden.”
That doesn’t prove anything, because all three consuls are already under his hypnotic control, so their testimony does not count as independent corroboration. Also because three examples out of billions comes nowhere near proving a universal pattern.
@67,like I said very bad theology. Especially the Eden notion. God may have manifested to take the occasional stroll but He didn’t live there
More seriously Sybok seems to be expecting a physical God NOT a spiritual presence. It’s a very unsophisticated and materialistic concept
@69/Christopher: What I mean is this: I have the impression that the writers of the film were not aware how different faith systems are. They wanted to portray the mindset described in comment #67, so they unthinkingly turned everybody into space Christians. Otherwise, I would have expected someone at some point to tell Sybok that e.g. Tellarites don’t have a personal god, or only a small sect on Romulus believes in Vorta Vor. Of course we don’t have to accept this as real facts about the Klingons and the Romulans.
@70/Roxana: Do you criticise Sybok or the film? Because I think that the writers of the film would agree with you, and that’s what the film is actually about.
Sybok. I’d expect more sophistication from a Vulcan. If that was the movie’s intended message than they had an equally unsophisticated view of religious believers.
@72/Roxana: I’m not sure what the film’s message is, but I think an examination of cultists was its starting point.
Sybok is definitely leading a cult.
@72/roxana: Sybok was hardly a typical Vulcan. Plus, he was manipulated by the “God” entity. His need to believe in something left him vulnerable to being led. So it’s not like he arrived at that belief arbitrarily. It was what the entity needed him to believe in order to bring it a starship.
And how did we end up on this subject in a Discovery thread?
Could be because even a bad movie like Star Trek V gives bigger, more interesting things to discuss than Discovery. Had they stayed the course and explored Klingon religion and cults… well…
What if the writers had taken the name Discovery literally? What if instead of Klingons wars and magic drives they had had Discovery make First contact with a new and warlike species engaged in a vicious internal struggle for power? What if Michael has been dumped in the center seat by the death of her captain and had to use her Vulcan training and discipline to overcome her grief, rage and urge for vengeance as she tried to stop a potential war?
As always, please be civil and respectful when participating in the comments–if you have something constructive to add, or questions to pose, fire away; if you’re simply showing up to mock the show (and by extension, its viewers), it’s difficult to differentiate those comments from outright trolling. Engage in the conversation in good faith, or do not engage at all–thanks!
Also with MU Disco being in the regular universe, there is the possibility that going back to the regular universe will not be so comfortable for the crew. Think about the havoc that a MU crew would do with a powerful Federation ship at their disposal, and after they are swapped our crew will be blamed.
And yet Kirk and co. have never even heard of the concept of a MU….
Finally!
I had almost given up on Discovery after last week’s senseless slaughterfeast (and I’ve waited till today to see this), and now I’m very pleasantly surprised to see a really well written and thoughtful episode that builds up greatly on earlies premises. It’s especially good to see how much the tone gets closer to that of the very first episodes, which I really liked. Granted, Stamets’ storyline is basically a load of nonsense, but Burnham’s A-plot this time really delivers, especially in the first part and that great scene with Mirror Voq. The story is still a bit too heavy on cheap thrills to my taste, and the Tyler is Voq “revelation” scene is quite tiresome, but all in all this is a very good episod that totally feels Trekkian. So, maybe there’s hope for Discovery yet!
Can someone explain why Burnham is supposedly at fault for starting the war and is guilty of x number of lives lost?
1.) Sure she mutinied against Phillipa, but that amounted to nothing as she woke up from the pinch before she was able to have the crew act on her orders.
2.) Sure it was her idea to go to the Klingon ship and do whatever, but Phillipa is the captain and agreed to the mission, so she bears any responsibility for anything that happened during that away mission.
Right?
If Georgiou (why does she have a Greek/Mediterranean name again?) had survived, she would likely have born the brunt of blame for inciting a war. But the war was coming anyway. Burnham was convicted of mutiny, not butchery (even though a preemptive move was her idea). As the survivor, blame accrued to her.
@84/Sunspear: “Georgiou (why does she have a Greek/Mediterranean name again?)”
Why did Leila Kalomi and Noonien Soong have non-European names? Sometimes the casting goes a different way than the script intended. But it’s not implausible. In real life, Kristin Kreuk is a Chinese-American actress with a Dutch name. The lead actor in Big Hero 6, Ryan Potter, is Japanese-American. In college, I had a friend of Appalachian ancestry whose given name was Vietnamese, because her mother taught English to Vietnamese immigrants. In a society where different ethnicities and cultures mix, so do people’s names. And the Federation is even more culturally intermixed than the US. If anything, there should be more characters with such seemingly incongruous names.
Alternatively, many Chinese people adopt Western given names or nicknames for the convenience of English-speakers, like how Lee Jun-fan went by Bruce Lee and Chan Kong-sang goes by Jackie Chan. Perhaps Philippa is just her Western name. And Georgiou could be her married name.
@85. CLB: “And Georgiou could be her married name.”
Was thinking along those lines too, even though that’s a bit traditional. Married name conventions are already changing in our time. Not to mention non-traditional couplings like partnerships not under a common name, or even that she shouldn’t/wouldn’t need to “westernize” her name in ST’s future.
It’s not implausible, just wish there was more background there. We may get more info if her emperor version is explored more than the captain was. (Btw, the usage of “emperor” could easily have evolved along the lines of “doctor” to become gender neutral. “Actor” seemed to be moving in that direction after Sigourney Weaver began asking to be called an actor, but not sure that one’s going to stick.)
@86/Sunspear: That’s true about the changing naming conventions, and besides, Chinese women traditionally keep their name after marriage anyway. On the other hand, Beverly Crusher and Keiko O’Brien both took their husband’s name in the 24th century.
I would have preferred if the writers had given Georgiou a Chinese name. There are so few Chinese characters in Star Trek anyway, why did they have to de-chinese the one they had? On the other hand, an English name would have been worse, so that’s something.
RE: Georgiou’s name: I am told that in the DSC novel “Desperate Hours,” it is said she was married to a Greek man, and the name is in fact her married name (which she kept).
Novels are not canon, of course, but the novel (again from recaps and synopses I have read) gives a lot of background on the DSC characters (including some good Burnham/Saru background).
The Discovery novels are being done in close conjunction with the production staff, for what it’s worth, so while it’s perfectly possible that the TV show will contradict the prose (happens all the time), there’s much less chance of it with Discovery because of that cooperation.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@88/WTBA: And why does she have a Greek first name?
The simplest explanation for Georgiou is her ancestors emigrated to Greece from East Asia, and were assimilated through intermarriage. She just looks Asian, culturally she’s Greek, why not?
@91/Roxana: I think it’s a loss when the few East Asian characters Star Trek has turn out to be Europeans or Americans after all. I was really disappointed when TVH established that Sulu was born in San Francisco.
I see your point. How would you feel about a European looking character assimilated into an Asian culture? I don’t quite see why they didn’t just change the character’s name when Yeoh was cast unless they were making some kind of point about culture not being tied to physical type?
@91/roxana: “She just looks Asian, culturally she’s Greek, why not?”
Then why does she have such a strong Malaysian accent?
Not quite the same dissonance, but makes me think of Jean-Luc Picard. Supposedly French, but played by an actor British to the core. Would’ve been hilarious if he’d quoted Shakespeare in French.
@94. CLB: Michelle Yeoh is ethnically Chinese, but from Malaysia (I think).
Gee, it’s almost as if Star Trek was practicing a sort of infinite diversity or something. ;)
97. Chaz: Sure, there are mixed families (like mine). We have relations that look Asian, but have Scandinavian family name.
Not sure “infinite diversity” means abandoning heritage or homogenizing all names/cultures into European/Western norms.
Wasn’t the IDIC pin just a fan club gimmick during TOS era? Burnham wore it in the “Lethe” episode, but given the Vulcan racism on display, it came across more as irony than sincere ethos.
@90/2 Janajansen/ As I said, I have not read the novel, so I do not know if we have been told where she grew up or may have immigrated/emigrated to or from. In the case of Sulu, there is at least an appreciable population of Japanese people on the West Coast. Are there many Asian people in Greece historically? (Does there HAVE to be?)
@93 princessroxana/ I understand that every decision is technically made by the writers (names, backgrounds, interests, etc.). There seems to be a problematic dichotomy between cultures being possibly Westernized/whitewashed (e.g. giving the Asian woman a Greek name) and having characters be lazy stereotypes (e.g. what if they had given Georgiou the fortune cookies instead of Lorca). The “right” choice is probably somewhere in between.
Look at DS9. Joseph Sisko has a cajun/creole restaurant. Yes, he is black, but he is also from New Orleans. There are lots of those restaurants there. His having it informs his background. What if Bashir had had the father with a cajun place in New Orleans? Is that a problem? Is that too strange? Is Joseph a caricature of what the general population thinks Cajun folks are like? Or he just a guy who has a restaurant in a post-scarcity society who loves to cook the food of his region?
Arguably, in the future there will have been a great mixing of cultures (as there already has been) on Earth and introducing space travel and space cultures should only exacerbate it. Some Earth kids should be playing kal-toh, for example. (Or is that cultural appropriation?)
Of course, I acknowledge that viewers look to what is familiar, but a good character from the future shouldn’t be a cipher for a 20th/21st century culture just to appease lazy/uniformed viewers. A character like Dax (well traveled, multiple lives) was very cosmopolitan and had a wide array of interests and experiences. Obviously, most characters don’t get 300+ years, but more characters should be like her. Arguably, most of the DS9 crew were clearly influenced by being around a broad array of cultures in/around the station.
I guess it comes down to the real-world issues of culture/ethnicity (and gender) and whether breaking the tropes (maybe too strong a word – or not strong enough?) is helpful or bad or neutral. If Georgiou’s name was Chan or Yeoh, would she be a better/worse character? Does her possibly having a Greek background (given her first name and the Greek husband) make her a better/worse character?
I am not sure what the answer is or if there is one. I can certainly appreciate the concerns that some viewers have, though. It is a worthy conversation to be having, for sure.
I also appreciate that folks here can have these discussions intelligently and civilly. That is certainly not the case in some corners of the interwebs.
One more thing on the mixing of cultures, especially on Earth: doesn’t transporter tech and post-scarcity/poverty/etc. make mobility pretty much infinite? Say you really like Paris, but in 2018, you probably don’t have the money to move there. You might not want to leave your family/home area. You don’t want to leave your possessions or drag them across an ocean. But in 2368 or whatever, you can move there easily. You can visit family nearly instantly. So, surely more people would move around, explore new areas, meet new people, marry and reproduce with new people in new areas, and things like names and cultural artifacts should continue to interweave.
And don’t forget universal translators!!!
98. There have been lots of non-Western names in Trek already. No evidence the franchise is advocating otherwise, only that it’s a product of American television, with all the limitations of production, casting and occasional failure of imagination that comes with the territory. But I appreciate Trek always tries to mix things up a bit with culture and heritage.
@96/Sunspear: Yes, obviously I know she’s from Malaysia, which is how I know what accent she has. It was a rhetorical question.
@98: The IDIC symbol was introduced onscreen in “Is There In Truth No Beauty?”, though Roddenberry put it in the show so that he could sell it as merchandise through Lincoln Enterprises. It’s been used extensively since then, from Spock’s wall mosaic in The Wrath of Khan to a symbol used by the Syrannites in Enterprise‘s Vulcan civil war arc.
@99/WTBA: “Some Earth kids should be playing kal-toh, for example. (Or is that cultural appropriation?)”
I think it’s only considered appropriation if it’s done by a more powerful culture with elements from an oppressed culture, especially if it’s done insensitively or in a way that perverts or misrepresents the original meaning. (For instance, non-Native Americans using the concept of a “spirit animal” as a metaphor, taking something deeply sacred and culture-specific and making a joke out of it.) Just learning another culture’s games isn’t bad.
@102/Chazwuzzuh: “There have been lots of non-Western names in Trek already.”
Statistically speaking, not really. The overwhelming majority of character names in the Trek franchise are of English, Scottish, or Irish origin, to a hugely disproportionate degree:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/human_names.htm
@99/WTBA: Yes, it’s plausible that Georgiou could be Greek. I just want her to be Chinese. As I said, there aren’t nearly enough Asian characters in Star Trek, and I’ve been wishing for a female Chinese starship captain for decades.
On the question of “breaking the tropes”, I personally prefer the politically united, but culturally diverse humanity of TOS to the rather homogenised humanity of TNG, even if it was somewhat stereotypical at times. I wouldn’t want a future where all places are the same. I like that Uhura’s native language is Swahili and Chekov’s is Russian, and that this sometimes comes up in the stories. And I don’t think it’s possible to avoid stereotypes all the time and still portray different Earth cultures convincingly, especially if we only meet a small number of people and spend very little time on Earth.
@103. CLB: “Yes, obviously I know she’s from Malaysia…” What are the odds that is/was self-evident to most viewers (who know her from Chinese cinema mostly), esp. those who don’t check wiki the way you and I do. It’s great the producers honored her wish to do her native accent, but that makes the prominently Greek name even stranger as a creative choice.
“It’s been used extensively since then, from Spock’s wall mosaic…” Perhaps Spock should’ve been more of a civil rights activist then. The ENT storyline I don’t know. Gave up on that show somewhere along the way. How does the portrayal of Vulcans in that arc square with the very uptight DISC ones?
@105/Sunspear: Enterprise developed the Vulcans extensively over its four seasons, in a way that conflicted with a lot of fans’ romanticized perception of Vulcans as wise and benevolent but that fit pretty well with the frequently obnoxious, condescending, and prejudiced way they were often portrayed onscreen. Their society did undergo a reform in season 4 to become more like the society we see in later shows, but it makes sense that some of the old attitudes would still linger, so ENT and DSC fit together pretty well.
CLB, I grew up with a Dutch grandfather a curious result of this and decades of British television is I’m oddly deaf to accents. I didn’t even realize Yeoh has one, much less it’s Malaysian.
@106/Christopher: Since Surak was wise and benevolent, Amanda seems to be happy on Vulcan, and the TOS Vulcans were open-minded enough to teach Miranda Jones, I sometimes think that the later Trek shows went a bit too far with de-romanticising the Vulcans. Although I quite liked ENT’s “Fallen Hero”.
@108/Jana: Surak was the Vulcan equivalent of Jesus or Buddha, or at least Gandhi and Dr. King. Would you expect most humans to be as wise and benevolent as Jesus or Gandhi? If not, then why expect most Vulcans to be as wise as Surak? He’s the ideal they aspire to, but that doesn’t mean most of them achieve it, any more than most humans do. It would be stereotyping the Vulcans to write them that way. They should be as variable and imperfect in living up to their cultural ideals as humans are. You use the word “Vulcans” as if it applied to a single, monolithic entity, and it can’t. It shouldn’t. Far too much of Star Trek treats alien races as one-note stereotypes, in a way that would be deeply offensive if it were applied to human ethnic or religious groups. I’m quite glad that Enterprise fleshed out the Vulcans as a people as varied and imperfect as humans are.
Amanda was happy to be on Vulcan because she lived with a husband who (relatively) respected her humanity, and she and Sarek probably tended to associate with other Vulcans who felt the same way. But it stands to reason that there would still be more conservative, prejudiced Vulcans as well, in the same way that America or Germany has both progressive and reactionary voices in its population. And if those more reactionary types managed to gain control of important institutions, then that would be something that the more progressive factions would have to contend with and try to change.
@109/Christopher: I’d say Surak was more influential than any of the men you mentioned – he turned an entire planetary population away from aggressive warfare and onto the path of logic and self-control.
Anyway, I don’t expect all Vulcans to be like him. I appreciate that the writers of ENT didn’t give us the cuddly Vulcans from Spock’s World or The Vulcan Academy Murders. I only think that they went too far into the other direction. Perhaps they eventually thought so themselves, and thus reformed Vulcan society in season 4.
But now that we’re much closer in time to TOS than to ENT, I would really like to see some likeable facts about Vulcans too. I thought that a human raised by Vulcans was a great idea for a protagonist, and would give us all kinds of insights about the respective assets and drawbacks of the human and the Vulcan way. Instead it turns out that she was mostly messed up by her Vulcan upbringing. What other Vulcans have we seen? A lying Sarek, a xenophobic VEG and a terrorist. “The Vulcan Hello” even did away with the idea of Vulcans being pacifists, which was a recurring theme in TOS. It seems to me that DSC likes its humans better than its Vulcans, whereas TOS mostly portrayed them as different but equally valuable.
@110. JanaJansen: “I would really like to see some likeable facts about Vulcans too.”
Agreed. I’m not a fan of the xenophobe Vulcan portrayal. There’s no essential difference between Vulcan and Klingon racism and purist ideology in DISC.
I loved Vulcans as Greek philosopher analogues in TOS, or meditating monks who loved science. But perhaps Spock and Leonard Nimoy cast too large a shadow. I remember being hugely disappointed that TNG had no prominent Vulcans. Data and his Pinnochio story were fun, but certainly not a replacement for a whole culture.
Maybe we can get back to a place where Vulcans are, if not lovable, at least likeable again.
Many have pointed out that Vulcans have become Space Chinese/Japanese complete with past warrior culture, traditionalism and a Confucius analog in Surak.
@85:”Why did Leila Kalomi and Noonien Soong have non-European names? Sometimes the casting goes a different way than the script intended. But it’s not implausible. In real life, Kristin Kreuk is a Chinese-American actress with a Dutch name.”
In Kreuk’s case, it’s because she’s half-Dutch:
“Birth Name: Kristin Laura Kreuk
Place of Birth: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Date of Birth: December 30, 1982
Ethnicity:
*Dutch (father)
*Chinese, with some Scottish and African (mother)”
@113/trajan23: Yes, I know that. Why do people in this thread keep “explaining” actresses’ heritage to me after I make comments indicating that I already know their heritage?
114. CLB: Have we invented Treksplaining?
@114:” Yes, I know that. Why do people in this thread keep “explaining” actresses’ heritage to me after I make comments indicating that I already know their heritage?”
Well, in my case, it’s because you stated this:
“In real life, Kristin Kreuk is a Chinese-American actress with a Dutch name.””
That seems to imply that the actress (who’s Canadian, incidentally) is ethnically Chinese but possess a Dutch surname. In reality, she is half-Dutch, half-Chinese (plus some Scots and African).
In real life, Kristin Kreuk is a Chinese-American actress with a Dutch name.”
@116/trajan: Again: Yes, I know all that.
@111/Sunspear: “There’s no essential difference between Vulcan and Klingon racism and purist ideology in DISC.”
This brings me back to the thought that in TOS, Klingons weren’t racist either, nor was the Empire in “Mirror, Mirror”. Nor, I think, were the Romulans. Racism wasn’t nearly as widespread in the Galaxy as it is today.
117. CLB: He’s just saying that by calling her a Chinese-American actress, you were being imprecise. She is not an American actress of full Chinese heritage. So… “Canadian actress (who works in American TV (made in Canada)) of Chinese/Dutch heritage.”
118: Jana: “Racism wasn’t nearly as widespread in the Galaxy as it is today.” Sign of the times?
Burnham called Mirror Saru by his real name, and I’m wondering what implications that might have for the future. Since he’s never told her his name, she has to not be the real Michael Burnham…
@121/Corylea: Mirror-Saru said that slaves don’t have names. If that’s literally true, and if he was born into slavery, then he was never named Saru until Burnham called him that.
All I can say is another wonderful article, and my creed is mixed between lusting for Uhura, and “Disruptors set to stun!” kinda black humor…
The look mirrorSaru gave her when she accidentally called him “Saru” did seem to me as if that really is his name, and he was wondering how she knew (or cared). Mind you, reading alien facial expressions isn’t an exact science.
@122/CLB — Yes, IF that’s literally true. But if Mirror Saru has a name that his mother gave him — surely the other slaves call one another something — then Burnham will have just called him by a name that no other Terran knows. Is that why he saved her life? Or could he — in the tradition of the Mirror Universe — turn her in so as to get rewards or privileges?
@124/phuzz — That’s how it looked to me, too!
Great episode. Definitely one of Discovery’s best episodes so far, if not the best. I loved seeing Andorians and Tellarites (Chris, THAT tellarite looks like a warthog, maybe not all of them do), and that Sarek had a goatee. I did not expect Voq to be the leader of the rebels. There are also little directing/acting cues that make it even more awesome, such as when Tyler/Voq has Michael in his arms, and she’s going on about “what darkness lives inside”, and without the camera shifting, Latif’s gaze moves slightly… perfect.
The whole thing about “we’re still Starfleet” and saving lives was perfect. Krad, I think Doug Jones is very much heralded as an vital part of the show.
I loved the idea of having part of Stamets consciousness uploaded to the mycelial network, and he needs to be plugged into the cloud to fix him. Plus, Mirror Stamets! Michael’s trick to save Voq/Tyler (at least to undergo a trial) and at the same time send the disk with the data to Discovery was brilliant.
The star of the episode was Shazad Latif, when Tyler/Voq meets Mirror Voq… it’s amazing how even if both characters are feeling very different things, you can tell that their body language is very similar. Not because Latif is a bad actor, but because he’s a great one, and can portray two characters and a half at the same time. Later, when he reveals himself as Voq to Michael, and he speaks English, but with Voq’s vocal inflections, it’s amazing how much like Voq he sounds, even without the prosthetics or the audio processing they give to Klingon voices in the show. His facial expressions when he’s feeling disturbed (because Tyler’s personality is weighing on him), how his expressions and physical stance changes when he finally becomes Voq again… all wonderful.
I still want to see Mirror Discovery in the regular universe… perhaps we’ll get an actual Captain Killy full episode?
@15 – dwcole: What?
@18 – Chris: I don’t think it’s fair to say that Burnham started the war. T’Kuvma was always going to go to war. She might have helped in rallying the Klingons behind the cause of war, but… is that really that hard? The war was going to happen anyway, and perhaps without Michael on Discovery near the sporedrive.
@26 – Sunspear: Including those who don’t actually watch the show and come to these posts every week to comment.
@28 – Athreeren: From what I’ve read (at a very quick glance), the only empress China had (that wasn’t a consort or a regent) styled herself with the same title as male emperors; probably to separate herself from previous Empress Consort or Empress Dowager, both we she had already been. In fact, the title we translate from Mandarin as Emperor is “huangdi”, which means “imperial supreme ruler” or “royal deity” have no actual gender. Seeing how Georgieou wears clothes that recall Chinese Imperial fashion (even if they might not be accurate), it all makes sense to me.
@53 – WTBA: Tilly, unlike Wesley at the beginning, has actual Starfleet Academy training.
@68 – JanaJansen: Beyond what Chris says, the Klingon consul can recognize Qui’Tu without actually having been a believer before that. I used to be a Christian, and if was to suddenly be taken to a place that resembles Mount Olympus, Valhalla, or what have you, I would probably recognize it… particularly after Sybok had mentioned it before as the place we were heading to.
@79 – Moderator STAFF: THANK YOU.
@80 – Ernie: They don’t have the Federation Disco, they have the Empire’s one.
@84 – Sunspear: Georgiou can have an European last name for multiple reasons. I have a friend who looks entirely Japanese when he’s just 1/4, and his name is Sebastián Rossetti. I am white and green eyed, and my name is Martín Pérez, which many people in the US (including Hispanics) think impossible, that I’m to white to be Hispanic, or my name is too Hispanich to be white. Et cetera. And everything Chris said.
As for her given name, she could have been named after a family friend. Chuck Norris’s actual given name isn’t Charles, but Carlos, after a friend of his father. And my godoson’s first name is Aragorn, hardly an Italian or Spanish name, as his ancestors.
@98 – Sunspear: If you have Asian looking relatives with Scandinavian last names, why are you even asking about Georgiou’s name?
BTW, I’m surprised no one who asks about Georgiou’s name has said anything about Ash Tyler’s.
@103 – Chris: Cultural appropiation also comes in when non-white native art is sold in its place of origins for mere pennies, but a white artist or corporation makes millions of dollars off of it.
@104 – Jana: She’s both, Chinese and Greek. Just as my niece is Uruguayan, Mexican, and American (as in US Citizen); or I am Uruguayan and American… and even my siblings are partially American, who don’t have the citizenship but did live part of their formative years in the US and absorbed many of the US’s culture before it was as global as it is today. Imagine in the 23rd century.
@105 – Sunspear: No, it doesn’t make her accent strange to millions of people who know people with names and ethnicities that don’t match. There are people with Scottish, English, or Irish ancestry in my country who speak heavily Spanish-accented English, because they learnt it as a second language, and the Scottish/Irish descendants don’t even speak Gaelic or Gaelige. My pal Sebastián Rossetti, who I meantioned before, doesn’t actually speak much Japanese, and if he did, he probably would have an accent that doesn’t match his face. How many Asian American people do you see without any trace of Asian accent and you go “oh, that’s strange!”
@107 – princessroxana: You didn’t realize Georgiou has a very marked accent that’s wildly different from the rest of the character’s on the show? Wow.
@111 – Sunspear: Spock living among humans and a spatter of Vulcans over three seasons do not a culture make, unlike what we had with Klingons/Cardassians/Ferengi/Bajorans on DS9, Vulcans on ENT, and even Klingons on TNG. (Not saying that those were ENTIRE cultures, but at least they tried.)
@126/MaGnUs: I’m pretty sure we saw several tusked Tellarites in the resistance group. But fans have been using the “different races/subspecies” excuse to rationalize different Klingon/Andorian/etc. makeup designs for decades now.
As for Georgiou’s imperial trappings, I read an article saying that they were based on what Empress Hoshi Sato probably established before her, which would’ve been based in Japanese tradition. That’s why one of Georgiou’s imperial titles is Iaponicus, the Latin for “of Japan.”
But then, Japanese imperial trappings probably have a Chinese influence to some extent.
@@@@@ 126, Yeah, I know. My deafness to accents is pretty weird. I can only assume that on some level I accept different speech patterns as individual rather than national. I do hear STRONG accents like say Scotty.
@126/MaGnUs:”She’s both, Chinese and Greek.” – I get that, but I would have preferred her to be fully Chinese. Both because Star Trek desperately needs more Asian characters and because of my next point.
“Imagine in the 23rd century.” – I like to imagine a 23rd century where different cultural traditions still exist, and not everything has run together into a single global world culture. Such a 23rd century would have people with a mixed heritage, but even more people who are clearly Chinese, or Finnish, or Arabian. I want people to work together peacefully, but cherish their different traditions at the same time. We only see a handful of characters, and some of them are always Americans, and some of them are always aliens. If the rest are multi-ethnic cosmopolitans, I’m not seeing this future.
@128/Roxana: Me too.
@Magnus: I feel like CLB about your comments. Why are you telling me things I already know?
Not sure you took context into account. It’s not that Yeoh’s character can’t have a Greek name (obviously in a global culture heritage can become mixed), it’s that it appears random with no in-universe explanation. Unless you go to an extraneous source to get background. Add the choice of Malaysian accent and a case could be made that the writers had a different character in mind before Yeoh was cast.
Spock and Vulcan culture was very developed by the time TNG came around, so relegating Vulcans to the background was disappointing if you were a fan. Not sure that can be disputed.
The rest is spinning wheels, so I’ll drop it here.
@128 – princessroxana: Her accent is just as strong as Scotty’s. And as for the other point, the fact is beyond severely isolated places, even today nobody is simply and purely “Chinese”, or whatever. Cultures have been intermingling forever, and even more now when travel is not even neded. We need more Asian characters, yes, but not to the extent that all they are is Asian, and that’s what defines them.
@130 – Sunspear: That’s just my point, it doesn’t need an explanation. Just as people in the real world and the present have a name that doesn’t “match” their appearence; so do people in Star Trek.
Hell, I wonder why we’ve never seen human characters with Vulcan, Klingon, or other alien names. “Lt. Kahless Johnson, from Texas.”
@54 – kkozoriz: I’m re-watching that episode. The comms officer says “Incoming transmision. It’s the emperor!”, meaning the protocols, code, or whatever identified the call as from the Emperor. When the hologram appears, everybody just stares for a moment, and only then, a few seconds later, do they salute. They’d never seen the Emperor before, and were taking in her appearance, and then they saluted. It wasn’t immediate.
@131. Magnus: “We need more Asian characters, yes, but not to the extent that all they are is Asian, and that’s what defines them.”
I’m squinting at this and it just looks wrong.
Also, “Her accent is just as strong as Scotty’s…”
You mean Scotty’s totally fake Hollywood Scots accent, perhaps easily spotted because it’s not genuine? Yeoh’s is her native speaking one.
Actually, Yeoh’s position as an actress working in English language media is similar to her character ‘s on the show. It’s Michelle (echoes Michael?), not 楊紫瓊 or 杨紫琼. Add in the fact of her character taking her husband’s name (would/should we still be tied to that concept hundreds of years from now?) It becomes even more implausible when calling the MU Emperor by a married name.
I’m actually trying to think of the latest character with a distinctly “different” name that doesn’t follow the Western Norm and I’m only slightly optimistic that technically Jadzia wasn’t said to follow any particular pattern…
Hmm…Jadzia Dax Rozhenko of the House of Martok?
@133/Sunspear: And taking the husband’s name isn’t even a Chinese custom.
@134/LordVorless: I like how Trill names look like the usual combination of first name and family name, but are actually something quite different.
Hmm, different naming patterns… Many characters have only one name. Usually the aliens, but there’s also Chakotay. Bajorans put the family name first, which is something the Chinese and Japanese do in real life (and probably many other peoples too, these are just the ones I know about). There’s the son-of house-of naming pattern the Klingons use, but I guess you could argue that son-of is a patronymic and house-of is a family name, which would make the Klingon names akin to Russian ones.
As for actual non-Western names, ENT had Hoshi Sato. Perhaps the only Asian Star Trek character who wasn’t somehow westernised (Sulu: born in San Francisco, Keiko: took her husband’s name, Harry Kim: English first name, Georgiou: Greek name).
@135. JanaJansen; some Eastern Europeans, like Romanians, use family name first.
@135/Jana: “There’s the son-of house-of naming pattern the Klingons use, but I guess you could argue that son-of is a patronymic and house-of is a family name, which would make the Klingon names akin to Russian ones.”
There are a lot of surnames that are “son of” patronymics. MacDonald is “son of Donald.” O’Brien is “son of Brien.” Fitzpatrick is “son of Patrick,” as is Kilpatrick. DiMartino is “son of Martino.” Then there are Hebrew names with “ben” and Arabic names with “ibn” or “bin” meaning “son of.” It’s pretty common. Russian is different from the European examples because the patronymic is a middle name rather than a surname.
“As for actual non-Western names, ENT had Hoshi Sato.”
But that is a Westernized name order, putting the surname second. There were one or two early ENT novels that called her “Ensign Hoshi,” since the author(s) apparently assumed it was a Japanese name order, but Sato is one of the most common Japanese surnames and Hoshi is a moderately common given name. If she did use Japanese name order, she’d be Sato Hoshi.
“Perhaps the only Asian Star Trek character who wasn’t somehow westernised”
You mean East Asian, since South Asian characters like Khan (supposedly), Captain Chandra from “Court Martial,” Mr. Singh from “The Changeling,” etc. would count as Asian too.
@137/Christopher: “There are a lot of surnames that are “son of” patronymics.”
No, that isn’t the same thing. The examples you give are family names that stem from patronymics. The difference is that they stay the same from one generation to the next; a real patronymic changes from one generation to the next, because everybody is named after their father. For example, in Iceland people only have patronymics and no family names. The current prime minister is Katrín Jakobsdóttir. Her father’s name is Jakob Ármannsson.
“But that is a Westernized name order.”
I know. But surely that isn’t the same as making a supposedly Asian character American, or taking half of the name away? All my Chinese friends have inverted their name order when they lived in Germany, but they didn’t change their names.
“You mean East Asian […].”
Actually, I meant “from the main cast”. Sorry for being imprecise.
@133 – Sunspear: What’s wrong about what I said regarding Asian characters? They need to be fully realized characters, not Asian stereotypes. As for the accents, genuine or not, both are noticeably different from the rest of the accents in the same show.
@135 – JanaJansen: Unjoined Trill names still follow given name + family game. Ezri is Ezri Tigan before Ezri Dax.
@137 – Chris: Also, all Spanish last names ending in “ez” (like my own, Pérez, son of Pedro), are former patronymics.
@139. Magnus: Whoah. Dude. That is not what you said. Go back… read it again. “not Asian stereotypes” may have been what you intended to say, but you said:
“We need more Asian characters, yes, but not to the extent that all they are is Asian, and that’s what defines them.”
That reads like this: “We can have Asians, as long as they are not too Asian.” In other words, as long as they are Westernized. You know, like Georgiou. I’m not advocating for the type of racist ethnic purity that Vulcans, Klingons, and of course, the Terrans have espoused on this show. That’s obviously despicable. But what you come across as saying is that no indigenous culture should remain distinct.
No, I never said anything like that.
Ok.
@45: Loungeshep
Sheesh. I agree it’s awful. Glad to see someone else with the same reactions: uncomfortable to listen to and to watch, as well as boringly slow.
Meanwhile, what *I* want to know is why all the women leaders in the MU have to have long, straight, lanky hairstyles? Oh wait…that’s all except our main character, of course. (Secondary is why Commander Killy’s hair is cut in an inverted “V” in back: her choice? How would anyone know what it looked like in back, when they only saw her through a face-to-face transmission?)
Aside from the nits, I *am* enjoying the show, especially being able to binge-watch since I’m behind.
@143/srEDIT: Remember, they communicate in this show through midair holograms that let them walk around each other in 3D, rather than just on a viewscreen. Also, maybe she’d need to turn around to give an order to someone behind her. Or someone from the Empire could’ve come aboard the ship for some reason.
@83: I’m just watching the series for the first time, but I have had that same question. Nothing Burnham did started this war, and nothing Burnham did led to the death of her Captain. So why is she blamed for both?
Golf clap to CLB for this: “Religion doesn’t make people good or bad; people make religion good or bad by using it as the excuse for whatever good or bad things they would’ve done anyway.” I absolutely completely agree. I don’t know which I find more insufferable: literalist Christians or fanatical atheists.
Was that a ghost of a smile on Lorca’s face when he saw Burnham’s reaction to the appearance of the emperor? ;)
I don’t like fanatical atheists, but literalist Christians are a bit worse.
And I can understand that opinion, although I tend to agree with Einstein: “The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who — in their grudge against the traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ — cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
Fanatical atheists don’t kill people because of their atheism. Religious fanatics, on the other hand…
I think the conversation might be veering off into rough terrain, here–let’s get back to discussing the show. Thanks!
Roger roger.