Lyn: Well, here we are, folks. Ready to dig into the prologue? I know I am. I’ve got my blue wine at hand, an axe-hound curled on my lap, and the Weeping’s providing a nice backdrop of pattering rain on the windows.
Alice: The Weeping indeed. I get soaked every time I leave the house. Anyway, today we’ll take a new look at That Fateful Night six years ago, when a treaty was signed and a king assassinated. This time, we see it from the perspective of a very frightened young Listener explorer-turned-interpreter, and dig into the reasons it became necessary.
L: So, to start out, I’d like to say that this is only my second time reading through Oathbringer, and the first time was the beta read over a year ago, so I couldn’t really let myself settle into the story. I’ve forgotten a lot about what happened, especially little details, so forgive me if I seem a bit absent-minded at times when it comes to details I should probably have remembered. I’m sure things will start coming back to me as we go, but these first few rereads may be a bit lengthy as we refresh ourselves (and you) on things we may have forgotten. For those who weren’t with us in Edgedancer, it should be noted that I tend to be more of a casual reader when it comes to Cosmere connections and Words of Brandon. I focus more on character and worldbuilding, so I’m sure I’ll be a bit daft on some things… But that’s what we’ve got Alice for! Right, Alice?
A: You betcha! (Heh. I’m just all that and a bag of chips. You know it.) My memory is no longer infallible—I think I put too much Cosmere lore in it!—but I love the foreshadowing in these books and the way little things tie to other little things to become Much Bigger Things. I’ll do my best to make those connections as we go, and rely on the rest of y’all to catch the ones we will inevitably miss.
L: We’d also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. If we need to talk about things from other Cosmere novels, we’ll note that here, and potentially white them out if they’re really big things, like major reveals or the fates of main characters. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Eshonai
WHERE: Kholinar palace
WHEN: Six years ago
WHAT: Eshonai arrives for the signing of the peace treaty between the humans and the listeners. She goes wandering and finds King Gavilar in council with some other Alethi, whom he sends away in order to speak with Eshonai privately. He reveals to her that he intends to bring back the old gods, in order to create an enemy against which the nations of the world are forced to unite. Eshonai brings this information to the Five, and they collectively decide to assassinate Gavilar rather than allow his plan to come to fruition.
Threshold of the Storm
To Weep
A: The four Herald spots are all occupied by the image of Nalan.
L: (Aka Nale, aka Darkness, Herald of Justice, the patron of the Skybreakers.)
A: It’s worth noting here that these are not portraits, but rather are “Vorin ideal” versions of them.
L: I have to admit I had never paid much attention to these arches before! For the sake of those like me who never really looked at it too closely or are joining this reread without following the others, is this something that has been constant throughout all three books so far?
A: Yes, indeed. There’s actually a lot of significance hidden in this artwork. The Heralds depicted—one, two or four of them—reflect something about the theme of the chapter, particularly as linked to the “Historical Associations” you find in the Ars Arcanum.
L: Okay, so what can we gather about this chapter from the fact that Nalan was chosen?
A: Well, there’s likely something to do with justice—or perceived justice—in this chapter. Sometimes, it indicates that the Herald in question is actually there. More often, if there’s a Knight Radiant active in the chapter, their patron Herald will be shown.
L: Heh… well, Szeth DOES show up… and given where he winds up going over the course of this book…
A: That’s certainly one possibility, since we now know that he’s joined the Skybreakers. Another reason for the Herald is sometimes the characteristics displayed by various people in the chapter. It’s actually a little confusing, because the Divine Attributes associated with Nalan in the Ars Arcanum are “Learned/Giving,” while the Skybreakers big thing is Justice. And there are other reasons. Sometimes it’s the opposite of the ideals. Which, of course, is why it’s so fun to look at it!
L: Well, Gavilar’s actions in this chapter certainly aren’t representative of justice, that’s for sure. An argument could be made for Eshonai’s, but even then, it’s shaky…
A: We’re always guessing a little, but I just had to go back and look it up. In The Way of Kings, the four spots were all occupied by Jezrien. In Words of Radiance, it was Palah, patron of the Elsecallers. The second makes a lot of sense, because it was from Jasnah’s POV, and we even met her spren there for the first time. The first… less so, except that (as we know now) Jezrien himself actually made an appearance in that first Prologue. So… it could be anything. In this case, my best guess is that it’s the sort of “justice” of Gavilar dying because he was trying to do something absolutely horrible—to bring back the Desolations.
L: But was it horrible? Was it REALLY? We’ll get more into this later, under the “Motivations” heading. Moving on for now, have you guys ever discussed the eyes? The oddly shaped pupils are so interesting, like a goat’s eyes. I wonder if they might be representative of Rosharan natives’ eyes.
A: Heh. I’m not much of an artist, so I don’t notice details like that! So… no, I’m pretty sure we never talked about that. They’re… a bit odd, aren’t they?
A: A couple of other things worth mentioning at this point, though, are the title itself and the round icon framed by the arch. The icon is one that was used in WoR for the chapters where we had Eshonai’s perspective. We called it “The Listener,” and of course, here it is now for her view of the assassination. The title “To Weep” comes from the last few paragraphs of the chapter, as Eshonai weeps for the music, her people, the world, and the king.
Stories & Songs
For starters, let’s begin a running list of all of the listener rhythms! In this chapter, we got the following:
Curiosity, Awe, Peace, Pleading, Skepticism, Appreciation, Anxiety, Consolation, Praise, Reprimand, Mourning
L: In addition to those, we also heard about the Rhythm of the Terrors, which I find really interesting because it’s a proper name rather than an emotion. It seems as though the Parshendi have linked this particular rhythm and all of the emotions it conveys to the stories about their old gods, which is just fascinating: this one song encapsulates more than one emotion. It sort of reminds me of that Star Trek: TNG episode “Darmok,” in which the aliens’ language derives directly from stories and myths. One word means so much more, just like this one Rhythm seems to convey all of the varying emotions Eshonai has about the old gods.
A: It reminds me of the Rangers from Babylon 5: “Never forget that terror is also a form of communication.” Also, YES to a running list of the Rhythms!
“Klade claimed that a voice–speaking to the rhythms–had led him to the man.”
L: Whoa, wait a second! So were more of the ancestors/Voidspren than just Ulim communicating with them before Eshonai adopted stormform and brought about the Everstorm? Or was Ulim talking with more of them than just Venli? Oh… or maybe it was Odium himself. That would actually make a lot more sense…
A: Well, something was communicating… It might have been one of the Unmade, or Odium himself. Or, I don’t know, maybe not all the ancestors were completely trapped on Braize any more? I’ve heard a number of theories, but I haven’t heard confirmation. Unfortunately, because I’d really like to know!
L: For those like me who didn’t quite remember, Braize is where Odium’s hanging out currently and the Listener ancestors/Voidspren were trapped. It’s also known as Damnation, where the Heralds were sent to be tortured between Desolations.
A: And… now that you made me go do all that research… (Yes, Lyndsey, it’s all your fault. You went and said something about something and then I got sucked into the Coppermind and had to follow all the rabbit trails! Oy…)
L: ‘Ake? ‘Olan? (Sorry, I’ll stop making irrelevant references now.)
A: My new best guess is that this was actually Ulim, the spren Venli will interact with in her first few Interludes. I’d apparently forgotten that the Voidspren and the ancestors’ souls were trapped on Braize, and at least one of the Voidspren escaped somehow. It makes the most sense, when you put all the little pieces together.
L: The Voidspren and the ancestors’ souls weren’t the same thing?
A: No, I don’t think they are, though I had to do some searching to remind myself how it works. In one of Venli’s Interludes (I-7) there’s an explanation of the various ranks among Odium’s people. Along the way, both Venli and Ulim make references to “mindless Voidspren” (which give them the basic forms of power) and “higher Voidspren” (the ones like Ulim and Yixli, as well as some of those whose bond give a higher-ranking form like Venli’s); both are distinct from the ancestors’ souls which, when they take a body and become Fused, actually kill the person who used to own it.
Relationships & Romances
A: We won’t actually see very much of it in this book ::sniffle:: but it appears that Eshonai and Venli were relatively close at this point. The chapter opens with Eshonai thinking of prior conversations with her sister, and those same thoughts are echoed a couple more times throughout. Venli appears to have been a confidante for Eshonai’s hopes and dreams of exploration. There’s also the little note—possibly a foreshadowing—that Venli was with Klade when they purchased Szeth, and as of the time the music began, Eshonai hadn’t seen her sister since before that transaction. It’s possible that this is the point where Venli fell under the influence of Odium.
L: Or maybe this is when Ulim recognized Venli’s potential and switched over from communicating with Klade to her…
A: Ummm…. Yeah. That’s very possible. Perhaps he’d latched onto Klade and then turned to Venli after Klade died? (Klade was one of the three leaders who stayed behind to distract the humans while the rest of their people escaped; those three were then hanged for their crime.) Either way, if it was Ulim that Klade heard, it would make perfect sense that from this point on, Venli was working toward the Everstorm.
Bruised & Broken
A: I know this isn’t exactly what we planned for this section, but Eshonai is sort of broken during the course of this chapter. She starts out all full of wonder, awe, curiosity, and excitement. Then she is told Gavilar’s plan, shares it with the Five, and votes with them to assassinate him in the hopes of preventing the return of her ancestors. The chapter ends with her weeping for her people and the world, and though she doesn’t say it, I think she’s also weeping for the loss of her innocent dreams.
L: I’d say that it’s definitely the beginning of her breaking. When we see her in Words of Radiance, she’s still somewhat confident, determined to protect her people. Her innocent childhood dreams of exploration are buried under a mountain of responsibility, but she’s still strong. I think it was adopting stormform that truly broke her. Perhaps this was the blow that cracked her Shardplate, but realizing that she was capable of killing her own people under stormform was the final blow.
A: This just occurred to me… we’ve heard & talked for years of how “being broken” (whatever it means in each context, not going there right now) opens the soul to Investiture, and on Roshar specifically to a Nahel bond. Is this the point where Eshonai started to break in such a way as to be able to bond that comet-like spren that we only saw after she took stormform? My current theory is that she had, perhaps unknowingly, begun to bond one of the spren which would have made her a Knight Radiant, but the stormform-spren was too powerful and displaced that bond. The realization that she could kill her own people while in stormform might have been the thing that, had she survived the fall and the storms, would have driven out the stormspren and allowed a full Nahel bonding.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
L: At one point in his conversation with Eshonai, Gavilar says “I’m being watched.” By who? I think at this point it would be helpful to have a tiny refresher as to the different secret organizations that we’re aware of on Roshar. I’m always getting them mixed up with one another, and I can’t be the only one… So here goes.
- Ghostbloods—Seeking information about the Desolations and the Parshendi. Attempted to assassinate Jasnah Kholin, and currently Shallan Davar is infiltrating their organization. There are definite if murky Cosmere connections.
- Sons of Honor—Goal of returning the dominance of the Vorin Church, by bringing about another Desolation and hence bringing back the Heralds. Amaram was a member of this group, as was Gavilar.
- The Diagram Cabal—Believers in Taravangian’s great plan, which he wrote on his most brilliant day, the implementation of which supposedly will save humanity.
L: It stands to reason that it could have been the Ghostbloods watching him. We don’t know for sure if Taravangian had already written the Diagram at this point—in a Word of Brandon, he indicates that the Diagram hasn’t been written yet, but since he said he should check with Peter, we don’t have a canonical answer. So… if it’s not Taravangian or the Ghostbloods, who is watching him? Nalan was present at the treaty-signing, we know that. So was Jezrien. There’s evidence to suggest that Shalash was there, too (the statue of her had been removed). But I can’t imagine that Gavilar would be upset about the Heralds themselves keeping an eye on him…
Unless he didn’t know that’s who they were.
A: I’m pretty sure Gavilar suspected the Ghostbloods; he assumed that Thaidakar had sent the assassin, and we know that Thaidakar was either the leader of, or very high up in, the Ghostbloods. (Of course, I’m only assuming that Gavilar knew that as well, but Brandon did say that Gavilar knew about more groups than he was actually part of.) By the time of the main plot action, the Sons of Honor and the Ghostbloods were rivals for certain kinds of power and information; it’s quite probable that they were earlier as well. It’s interesting to note that when Szeth said he didn’t know who Thaidakar was, Gavilar’s second suspect was Restares (Sons of Honor), and then Sadeas. He really didn’t trust much of anyone, did he?
L: Well, given how trustworthy Sadeas turned out to be, I can’t say I blame him. I’m also curious as to just how deeply he’s thought through this revelation to Eshonai. How many of the events of the first two books would be different, had Gavilar not told Eshonai all of this? Did he intend to be assassinated, hence precipitating the War on the Shattered Plains that would eventually drive the Parshendi to do exactly what he wanted them to? I never really got the impression that Gavilar was much of a mastermind, but maybe the other Sons of Honor are pulling the strings behind the scenes somehow…?
A: It’s kind of hard to see Gavilar plotting like that; he seems too straightforward a thinker. (Oh, the rabbit trails I take when we start asking questions like this.) It seems that perhaps his goal was to start the war at any cost, even his own life. From the TWoK prologue, taking out all the extra bits:
“I expected you to come. You can tell Thaidakar that he’s too late.”
Then, when Szeth reveals that his masters were the Parshendi, Gavilar pulls out the other void-lighted sphere:
“The Parshendi? That makes no sense… You must take this. They must not get it.”
I strongly suspect, though without much proof, that Gavilar wanted to put both of the void-spheres in the hands of the Parshendi, hoping that they would release the trapped spren and trigger the reawakening of the voidforms. Once he’d given Eshonai the sphere, any plot of the Ghostbloods to stop him would be too late.
Flora & Fauna
“Look deeply into it. Can you see what’s moving inside? It’s a spren. Captive like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning Awe. They’ve built devices that mimic how we apply the forms?”
L: Hold up here, Eshonai. Are you telling me that all of your forms are trapping spren inside of your gemhearts, not just stormform? If so, that’s simultaneously cool and horrifying.
A: Maybe it’s because I don’t want to think of it that way, but I sort of assumed that with gemhearts, the spren volunteer for the job… if those less-than-sapient spren have enough volition to volunteer. Somewhere later, if I remember right, we’re told that you have to lure them with something they want. So apparently the spren get something out of it when they bond with these various creatures.
L: A symbiotic relationship, then. Like pilot fish! That’s way more palatable.
A: Exactly. And we know that a LOT of Rosharan critters have spren bonds to make them, well, possible. Skyeels couldn’t fly without their spren, and the big chasmfiends and greatshells would collapse under their own weight—even on low-grav Roshar—without the spren effect.
Places & Peoples
L: I find it fascinating that the Alethi enslave their own people. Not that this is new information (Kaladin was a slave in WoK obviously), but from a worldbuilding perspective it’s worth noting. This certainly isn’t unheard of in the real world, but it seemed to be far more common for cultures to enslave other cultures or tribes, usually ones they believed to be below them. The fact that the Alethi considered the Parshmen slaves to be more valuable than their own people is rather interesting. Slavery is going to be a MAJOR theme going forward, so we may as well begin scrutinizing it now.
A: Contributing to that “lost innocence” I mentioned above, Eshonai’s thoughts about the parshmen slaves were saddening. At first she thought they were just a lost little tribe of dullforms who the humans had rescued and taken care of, which was an instant plus for the humans. Then she found out there were thousands upon thousands of them, bred for slavery, and the humans prized them for being such good slaves. Along with her, though, I’m a little puzzled about that bit where the Alethi seem to expect the listeners to be pleased that their kin are such high-quality slaves. How would you react to that? At the same time, she doesn’t seem to hold much animosity toward the humans for enslaving them. Is that because she’s so awed by the humans and all their Stuff that she has a hard time thinking badly of them?
L: I hate to say it, but I can kind of understand. If slavery is so integral and normalized within your society that you enslave your own people, then saying “see look, YOUR people are actually more valued and prized than our own” and expecting them to take it as a compliment does make sense. In a disturbing, misguided sort of way.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
L: No joking in this chapter, my friends. Everyone here is dead serious.
DEAD serious.
DEAD.
A: ::FACEPALM::
L: Wow, I heard the echoes from that one all the way over here in New England!
Measured Motivations
During Gavilar’s discussion with Eshonai, he reveals his motivation.
“I need a threat. Only danger will unite them.”
L: Wow, Gavilar. How very Ozymandias of you (major spoilers for the comic book Watchmen behind that link, folks, in case you haven’t read it). This is the classic “needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” conundrum (or for those of you well-read in psychology and ethics, The Trolley Problem). But unlike Spock, Gavilar’s putting a lot of innocent lives in danger, rather than just sacrificing himself. Yes, bringing back the Desolations will likely bring back the Heralds and the Radiants, and unite the world against a shared threat, hence ending war between the nations of Roshar. But at the potential cost of millions of innocent lives! If he’d just left well enough alone, those people wouldn’t have been put in danger at all, right? So clearly his motivations are flawed.
EXCEPT! Taln finally broke. So this Desolation was coming anyway. And without the Radiants and a united humanity, what hope would Roshar have had? Could he have been right, to have done what he did? The blood of the innocent being used to forge a shield for the entire world… His motivations mirror Taravangian’s Diagram, and I find it absolutely fascinating from an ethical perspective.
A: It’s quite a dilemma. If he hadn’t been getting those visions, I’d be down on him like a ton of bricks for thinking this was a good idea. And I still am, kind of, because he was trying to precipitate the war and actively bring back the worst enemy humanity had ever had, based on some ambiguous messages from a dying god. He didn’t have much understanding of what he was messing with.
On the other hand… if he’d managed to free the Unmade (assuming that’s what he thought the listeners’ gods were) and stir up enough of an enemy presence to get all the nations to unite so that they were already a unified force prior to Taln’s collapse, maybe it would have worked. Maybe humanity would have united to fight the Unmade and whatever forces they could bring. Maybe the Unmade could have freed the parshmen from nullform and brought them together to fight the humans, but (assuming the ancestors wouldn’t be freed until Taln released them) there wouldn’t have been any Fused to do Surgebinding. And maybe that would have precipitated a genocide—destroying enough of the Parsh before the ancestors returned that there simply would not have been enough habitable bodies for the Fused to be effective.
In a brutal sort of way, it makes sense; once the ancestors return, both sides are going to be trying to destroy the other race completely. But I still don’t think Gavilar had enough information to justify his plan.
And… of course, there’s no textual evidence that Gavilar was thinking of the Unmade as the listeners’ gods, but I can’t quite see how he’d have known about their ancestors and all that, either. Okay, now my head is spinning.
L: Maybe we’re overthinking this. Maybe he thought that the Parshendi’s old gods were just… the voidbringers. How much could he have known about voidbringers in general at this point? Jasnah hadn’t begun her research in earnest yet, I don’t think. Maybe he just thought of ambiguous “voidbringers” rather than in terms of Unmade or ancestors… Sort of the Alethi boogeyman, ya know?
A: Overthinking? Moi?? … Probably. What-ifs are tricksey things. He did have something Voidish trapped in those spheres, though.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“And with a very special gemstone, you can even hold a god.”
“Our parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.”
“…[the sphere] had … an aura of blackness, a phantom light that was not light. Faintly violet. It seemed to suck in the light around it.”
L: Storm it, which one was this? Is it one of the Unmade, or Something Else?
A: I don’t think we actually know enough yet, much to my chagrin. I’d like to think that he had one of the Unmade in it, so we could guess which one by eliminating the ones we see. But he’s so casual about giving it to her, and he has a second one, too.
L: The one Szeth grabbed from Gavilar as Gavilar lay dying, right? How many of these stupid things are there?!
A: Yeah, that one. Which, last we knew, was “well-hidden” somewhere in Jah Keved. I just don’t think they can be Unmade, for Gavilar to be so nonchalant with them, but they almost have to be some kind of Voidspren, to give off that light. So maybe something related to that spren Kaladin will meet later? Or others like Ulim? Or maybe that “ancient, crucial spren” he mentions? I’m so confused…
L: Okay so… moving on. Whatever kind of gem this is, I wonder if they can be infused by normal Stormlight, or if the very nature of the beings they entrap is an effusion? As in, is the light it’s giving off currently from the being it contains? If the gem weren’t holding… whatever’s in there… could a Highstorm make this baby glow? Or maybe the Everstorm?
Appealing/Arresting/Appraising/Absorbing Artwork
L: Eshonai makes a point of admiring the map of Roshar that Gavilar has on his table, noting how tiny her worldview was before seeing it. She’d assumed that the Shattered Plains were vast, when in reality they’re dwarfed by the entirety of the continent. This artwork by Isaac Stewart is absolutely gorgeous—I can see why Eshonai would be so taken with it, as an aspiring cartographer herself!
Quality Quotations
“She wept to leave the music behind. Wept for her people, who might be destroyed for tonight’s action. Wept for the world, which might never know what the listeners had done for it. Wept for the king, whom she had consigned to death.”
A: Well, I won’t say “that’s all from us this week” because we all know that certain rereaders get involved in the follow-on discussion. But that’s the end of the official part, anyway. Next week, we’ll be doing Chapter 1, “Broken and Divided,” where we’ll join Dalinar in Urithiru as he tries to figure out how to proceed with this whole unification gig. We’ll take a quick look back at the discussion during the preview chapters, as well, to see how far off base we were in the speculations. Heh. At last… we can really respond to some of those comments with something other than an evil cackle.
Alice has been delighted to see the number of people asking to join the Storm Cellar facebook group since the Introduction post last week! It’s been so much fun that we had to add a couple of moderators to keep track of everything—and that’s a good thing. She hopes you’re all enjoying the Kaladin album from The Black Piper, because sometime soon she’ll show up here with a whole post about that project.
Lyndsey’s just started training in German longsword in preparation for the upcoming Renn Faire season, and let me tell you, folks, it’s just as awesome as it sounds. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her on Facebook or check out her website and prepare for a lot of D&D jokes and memes, as well as the occasional bit of news about her ongoing projects.
I think the weird double pupil thing is the Double Eye of the Almighty. Which probably has something to do with the configuration of the surgebinding chart.
Based on the epigraphs from the gem library, the ‘ancient crucial spren’ was probably Bo-Ado-Mishram.
@1, ah yes! You’re probably right re: eye of the Almighty. Interesting to see it vertical though, as isn’t it usually horizontal?
Possible dumb question, but Galivar refers to the parsheni’s “gods.” Are the gods he is referring to Honor and Cultivation? Or is he thinking of the voidspren? I’m assuming Odium is not in mind here. Perhaps I missed something previously.
Also, our history of enslaving our own people instead of other cultures generally dealt with debt repayment, as opposed to chattel slavery. It doesn’t seem like this is the case in Alethkar as they brand slaves. Not necessarily something you would do to someone who would eventually work themselves out of slavery.
Thanks for the great post!
The Divine Attributes for Nale are Just/Confident, not Learned/Giving. That was a mistake in The Way of Kings that was fixed in the other books. Nan and Palah were accidentally switched.
Jezrien probably marked the Way of Kings prologue because his Honorblade was heavily involved in the chapter.
Little nitpick, the patron herald of the elsecallers is Battar, not Palah. Palah is for edgedancers.
One more thing. It was mentioned how the double pupil thing is wierd. That is the double eye of the almighty, inspired by the surgebinding chart of the knights radiant. The truthwatcher and bondsmith symbols in the center is what creates the double pupil, while the ringing surges make the iris, and the remaining ringing orders line out the border of the eye.
Ahh, the prologue is here, and it has so many fascinating tidbits.
The weird eye on the arches. I think this is actually something that was explained in the Ars Arcanum (as it turns out some other commentators have said before me), where they talk about: ‘the Double eye of the Almighty, an eye with two pupils representing the creation of plants and creatures. This is also the basis for the hourglass shape that was often associated with the Knights Radiant.’
It’s also what the surgebinding chart is based on, so that’s probably why the two pupils are vertical (representing the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers). The Heralds overall, of course, are very closely related to the Almighty/Honor, which might be why it’s there? As far as I know, that symbol shows up above every chapter.
About the voice Klade heard, I have trouble accepting that it was Ulim, unless he was playing a very long game. After all, the assassination of Gavilar postponed the Desolation, and might have stopped it all together, if the Alethi hadn’t gone to war with the Parshendi.
However, if my reasoning is correct, and the voice was trying to stop the Desolations, let me suggest someone: Cultivation. I believe we know the Rhythms permeate through the whole Cosmere (though Roshar specifically has the rhythms), and it seems weird a low-ranking Voidspren could hijack them so easily, but it seems like something a god could do.
And there’s Gavilar’s mysterious sphere. I was looking on the Arcanum website, and I found two interesting WoBs:
1.
Brandon Sanderson
Good question, there are clues to what it is. (I’m going to try to get this answer right) if you decode [Navani’s notebook] in the beginning of The Way of Kings you will find some significant clues to what the stone is.
2.
Brandon Sanderson
I’m just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is– Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.
Navani’s notebook in WoK consists of two pages, the first, and most interesting, is about how the cut of the gem influences what sort of spren are attracked by it, and what sort of gem (emerald, ruby, etc) attracts what spren.
The second is an explanation of a fabrial. It’s mostly the first page here which I think Brandon referred to, and combined with the WoB that says ‘you will know at the end of Oathbringer’.. when (one of )the most memorable event(s) of that battle is when Dalinar specifically traps the Thrill in a gem by attracting it with something it loves. This makes me feel that there is a spren in that sphere. Though like Alice says, it actually being an Unmade seems unlikely, as that’s not something you’d give away to all and sundry.
Isn’t Klade one of the original Five? Weren’t they all killed after confessing to arranging for Gavilar’s death? So Ulim would have to move onto the next target.
Spren and Gemhearts – Sorry Lyndsay this is when being a more casual fan hurts. Brandon told us this a few years ago. But since these spren are not aware like Syl and Pattern, it doesn’t hurt them. Sadly, it doesn’t enrich them either. This type of spren don’t grow or change. But yes, it’s a symbiotic relationship.
Gavilar & Eshonai:
Gavilar: My people were Radiant. Your people were Vibrant.
Anyone else now thinking that Vibrant is important in a wider scope since? Like maybe the Parshendi, who became Radiant, maybe had a different title?
We have the Fused and their void-light, but maybe the divide used to be better understood in a more positive manner.
I might start calling Renarin a Knight Vibrant. Since he’s not a Knight Radiant. But I will admit, Knight Vibrant doesn’t quite roll off the tongue as easily.
@3: No. At this point Gavilar knows the Parshendi gods are the “Voidbringers” aka – the big scary monsters everyone fought against. But he wants to bring them back in order for humans to regain their magic. Their power. Their Radiance. He’s willing to bring back a very destructive force just so people can have magic again.
He thinks it’s for a greater good. I think it is selfish.
Wow! This just made my Thursday
@9 no parshendi in the past have been a knight radiant. WoB confirms that.
Another interesting thing I’ve noted in this prologue is that, well, that Gavilar looks rather dumb, or at least completely ignorant of how Eshonai feels about the return of the Listener gods. We can chalk this up to arrogance, but it doesn’t really mesh well with the ‘words are important, Brother’ Gavilar we get in the flashbacks.
One option is that when Eshonai notes how open humans are with their emotions, it shows how big a gap there is between emotional expressions of the Listeners versus emotional expressions of humans.
Another option is some form of (willful) miscommunication. But even then, she clearly states that they no longer worship their old gods. Is there any way Gavilar could somehow understand this as ‘actually we do want the gods to come back, and we won’t even think of trying to stop you in your attempts to achieve this’?
That would require a lot of wishful thinking and a pair of Desolation-coloured glasses on Gavilar’s part. But if he clearly understood that the Listeners didn’t want their gods to return, it’s pretty stupid of him to be surprised when Szeth later tells him the Parshendi send him.
A last option, of course is that he’s been in contact with a Listener who does want the Desolations to return. But as far as I think we know, not even Venli has started her plots at this moment in time.
A&L: thanks for the reread.
Braid tug: Knight Vibrant sounds like something they’d sell at certain adult only stores.
Gavilar’s gems: I would believe that he’s got unmade in there. He’s so cavalier about possibly ending the world to accomplish his goals that carrying around a pair of ancient malicious spren isn’t a big reach.
Regarding Gavilar being watched:
There is another “secret group” at work on Roshar – The Skybreakers. They never disbanded. And, considering that Gavilar was a potential candidate for bonding the Stormfather, perhaps the Skybreakers were watching him to see if he began to manifest. A point in favor of this being what Gavilar was aware of is that we know Nale was there that night.
My two cents on the orb:
I think it did contain an actual unmade, Bo-Ado-Mishram, although maybe not all of it. Since both orbs seem so similar, maybe they each contain part of the unmade and it got split up between multiple (at least 2) different gems. I agree that if it actually did have an unmade and Gavilar knew it, he does seem somewhat casual about it, but he is perhaps getting desperate, feeling the pressure of people watching him and working against him, and by the time he gives it to Szeth he is as desperate as can be possible. And it does sound like he ultimately did want to return the unmade to the Parshendi, so it may seem casual to us but logical to him as it completes his goal.
Anyway, glad the reread is here. Good times.
I think Gavilar knew more than you guys give him credit for. :)
1. He knows how the Parshmen were “created.” That trapping a powerful spren (the Unmade, Ba-Ado-Mishram) made them what they are now.
2. He refers to their gods (plural), thus not (just) Odium. He refers to the Unmade as spren (see above), which seems to distinguish them from the “gods”.
I think he knew (more or less) that the Fused are their gods, which means he knew a LOT.
So here’s what I’m thinking. The… Voidlight… I think?… that was given off by whatever (Unmade?) is in the glowing black sphere could be the same glowing black smoke from Nightblood. If Voidlight is the inverse of Stormlight, what if there’s some sort of inverted Breath? Used by Shashara to make Nightblood? Or am I just jumping to conclusions?
@16, the black smoke leaking from nightblood is “corrupted investiture”, read corrupted as investiture co-opted or changed by another shard. For instance red regarding odium is corrupted investiture.
Love the reread.
I would contest the idea that slavery doesn’t occur within a culture (i.e. members of the culture become slaves) very often. The U.N. considers serfdom to be a form of slavery and it was very widespread in Europe (and other places) prior to the Renaissance.
I loved this chapter and had such high hopes for Eshonai when I first read it here on tor.com :(. I completely missed the quardruple Nalan icon, though, but it only makes me more convinced that I am on to something with my theory that Nale manipulated the listeners into assassinating Gavilar:
In WoR prologue, Nale’s companion, who is almost certainly Kalak says this:
Words echoed in the hallway, coming from up ahead. “I’m worried about Ash.”
“You’re worried about everything.”
Jasnah hesitated in the hallway.
“She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.”
“Shut up.”
“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He–“
Which suggests that both Heralds had something to do with Gavilar’s murder and particularly Szeth’s role in it. Nale also somehow knew that the feast was over – due to Szeth starting on his killing spree, despite being in the bowels of the palace, far from the feast hall. Liss the assassin and Szeth’s former owner also somehow knew that something was going to happen, whith her sly hints of “on a night like this” and entirely too fortuitious selling of Szeth , etc.
In OB prologue we have learned that the listeners were guided into buying Szeth by “a voice speaking to the rythms” and the same voice helped them _press_ Szeth for answers until he admitted to having a Honorblade. Then, when Eshonai reported the awful truth of Gavilar’s intentions to the elders, they took having Szeth at their disposal as the sign of what needed to be done to forestall the king. It is easy to see that the poor listeners have been manipulated into assassination by somebody who knew about and disapproved of Gavilar’s goals, but couldn’t take direct action against him – which fits Nale, who needed proper paperwork to kill his targets, which would have been impossible in this case. Ghostblood information that Shallan received in OB also claimed that Nale was opposed to Gavilar and wished his death.
Now, after OB came out many people jumped to the conclusion that Ulim the Envoy spren was the “voice”, but Venli specifically notes in her PoV that Ulim speaks like a human*. And now we know that Nale has a spren of his own that could have easily been the “voice” instead. The Herald of Justice had motive, means and opportunity and Kalak’s dialog confirms that they have done something “wrong” relating to Szeth. It is pretty clear, IMHO that Nale (and Kalak?) was the one who set the assassination up by indirect means.
* P.S. Also, Venli went along with the Elder Klade on slave-buying expedition where they ended up with Szeth due to the mysterious voice’s “guidance”, and she also interacted with Ulim a lot later, but she never suggests in her PoV that they were the same. In fact, she was _against_ Gavilar’s murder, as she was all for him succeeding.
Oh, and the Diagramm didn’t yet exist at this time – we know from Taravangian’s own PoV that Gavilar told him about his visions on the night of his death – in fact, he is likely the old man in robes in that group with the king that Eshonai sees here, and it was that information that prompted Mr. T’s visit to the Nightwatcher and found his secret society in the first place.
Scath @6:
The Eldgedancer Herald is Vedel, not Palah.
Jofwu @15 – Indeed, after OB is became clear that Gavilar knew surprisingly much, more than Jasnah was able to learn in 6 years of Voidbringer studies. Which, given that he wasn’t a scholarly fellow and that he chose not to confide in his genius daughter, begs the question – who has done all that research for him?
And also, yes, I believe that Gavilar wanted to cause a false Desolation to prepare and unite people for the Final Desolation that Honor promised in his visions. And it wasn’t even that bad of a plan, except for how the Unmade have been quietly preparing _humans_ for Odium’s service the whole time. So, uniting against the parsh/pre-emptively slaughtering them, etc., may not even have solved anything in the end.
@5, that’s a really good point.
@8, re: “I have trouble accepting that it was Ulim, unless he was playing a very long game. After all, the assassination of Gavilar postponed the Desolation, and might have stopped it all together, if the Alethi hadn’t gone to war with the Parshendi.”
You make an excellent point, here. Unless Ulim wasn’t there for the relatively short meeting where Eshonai reported in, and the Five made their decision. I can imagine him sitting there fuming in silence as his plans are set back…
@9 “Isn’t Klade one of the original Five? Weren’t they all killed after confessing to arranging for Gavilar’s death?” IIRC only three of them stayed behind. I REALLY like “Knights Vibrant!” As for being a casual fan… well, I guess someone’s got to be the voice for the rest of us, eh? :)
@14, damn… that’s a GREAT point about the Skybreakers. For some reason I didn’t consider them when I was listing off the secret organizations, but you’re TOTALLY right. Splitting up the Unmade into several gems is a really cool idea, but I wonder how that could possibly work in practice? It *would* explain why he’s being so cavalier with them.
@18, good point regarding serfdom, Brent. I suspect that we will get into this at least a little when Kaladin starts considering these matters.
Hello! So excited for the reread, I was too late on the WoK and WoR rereads, so happy to be participating this time.
Lots of my thoughts have already been discussed, but a couple of other thoughts from the prologue:
Eshonai is able to speak Alethi easily, does this mean she is inherently more sympathetic with the humans? Or just good with languages? Is this maybe the influence of the spren that was attracted to her for bonding?
She already knows that forms are applied through spren. Have the parshendi studies not found that is how to get other forms, they know at least warform and workform? So why does she sound so surprised?
Woohoo reread!
Lyndsey: I had the suspicion that Venli was under the swayed by the promise of Ulim’s claim of knowledge and power if she followed him long before the Alethi discovered the listeners. At this point in time, I believe Odium could not access Roshar. I think he is only able to access Roshar shortly prior to the end of WoK (when Taln approaches the city gates. I believe it was at this point that he finally broke due to the millennia of torture.
I got the impression that King T sought out the Nightwatcher after Gavilar’s death. He did not have the capability to write the Diagram beforehand. (BTW, I wonder if Cultivation had some foretelling that King T might defect to Odium’s side at some point after she granted him his curse/boon.) I think shortly before Gavilar’s death (possibly even the night of his death), Gavilar told King T about the visions Gavilar was having. (subsequently edited this sentence; my original post made it seem like King T was having the visions and told Gavilar about the visions)
I also think King T was one of the people Eshonai saw talking to Gavilar.
From what little we have been told, at this point in her life, Eshonai is the epitome of a Willshaper.
Even before OB, I thought Parshendi have some type of internal gemheart and that when they changed into Stormform, the gemheart vaporizes to trap a spren and then solidifies with the trapped spren inside (sublime). Basis for this theory is the lullaby that Shallan recites when she kills her father. I think it is somehow connected to the Parshendi. It seems to describe the chasms. It has a sound that a Parshendi may sing to a baby Parshendi. In particular, I am fascinated by the line “The crystals fine will glow sublime.” To me, the crystals fine represent gemhearts. Per Merrriam-Webster sublime means “to cause to pass directly from the solid to the vapor state and condense back to solid form. I believe somehow in a prior Forms (those Forms that the Parshendi had previously lost) Parshendi were able to cause a gemheart to pass from a solid state to vapor and then back to solid. Perhaps, that is what we saw done with Eshonai when she changed into Stormform. She had a gemheart and during the Highstorm, it somehow trapped a spren into a gemheart. In order to trap a spren, the gemheart had to “vaporize”. When it solidified, it now contains a spren. The gemheart that Eshonai sublimed was her “heart” gemheart. That is why the former part of herself is still within the deep portions of her mind.
I interpret OB as confirming my theory.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@13: Oy! Now that you said it, it does sound dirty. I won’t un-see that.
But I still think Gavilar using “Your people used to be Vibrant!” means something.
@20: Glad you like the name. And yes, you are a great voice for many of us! :-D
@21: I think Eshonai was a proto- Radiant. Her exploring and language skills were an element of that.
Nale is also called. “The Judge”. Judge x4 seems a good sentiment for this chapter, you don’t have to bring justice into it.
Something Gavilar deserves a kind of credit for is that at least, regardless of specific motive, he was keen on giving the Parshmen their minds back and was about to do it as an act of unprompted personal volition. People in the book are freely lying about everything to do with the Parsh/men/endi, so it’d be nice if that got into the historical record.
With regard to the mysterious gem, somewhere in the middle of the book (I think it was this one and not the previous one), there is a reference to the idea that if a gemstone could be cut perfectly it could hold stormlight without ever losing it. At the end of the book, one of the special things about the ruby which is stolen/recovered during the battle is that it has never needed to be recharged, having kept its light for years and years. This perfect cut property is clearly what makes it able to hold a spren, or at least one of the larger/more special spren as we see at the end of the book. And when they’re discussing the Ruby, Navanni (or possibly Jasnah) says something along the lines of the fact that Gavilar had managed to make one (or gotten hold of one) before he died. The one(s) he made are clearly the ones referenced in the prologue. The fact that the gem itself is capable of holding the spren may be more important than the spren itself.
Which leads to a different question…what is stormlight? The focus has been almost entirely on the spren, but what about the power source? If a gem can hold stormlight and a gem can hold spren…is stormlight itself a type of spren? Or a part of spren?
I have been checking every day since oathbringer came out for this reread! I’m so excited to have the chance to finally participate.
It seems that Gavilar knew the unmade were not the parshendis gods. He tells Eshonai they figured out how to catch a god in a gemstone, then says they robbed the parshendis if their forms by capturing a “crucial spren” – which we know is Bo Ado Mishram, an unmade, so it seems he thinks unmade are powerful spren but not their gods.
Based on this, that Gavilar said they figured out how to capture the parshendis gods and knew those gods were not the unmade, I think the spheres Gavilar had held two of the parshendis real gods – fused – that humans managed to capture centuries ago, the same way the parshendi maybe captured Jezrian. (I don’t want to get into a discussion about what happened there, we can save that for when we get there. I’m just bringing the theory that his cognitive self was captured as a similar idea to what may be in the spheres, as the fused are also just cognitive shadows of dead parshendi.)
I originally thought the voice Klade heard was ulim and that the Heralds broke in stages, only letting out a very small number of voidspren in return for some relief, before finally breaking completely. After reading the comments I liked both ideas mentioned here of Nale and of Cultivation being the voice, but I think Nale or his spren seems more likely.
On a separate note, did anyone else notice that Eshonai said the songs referred to humans as monsters? I just noticed it, and it’s great foreshadowing on the very first page, even if many people were not surprised by that twist.
@22 I don’t think you have to say their gemhearts turn into mist and the solidify. Eshonai here compares the humans capturing of spren in gems to how they capture spren in gemhearts, and we don’t have any mention of humans capturing spren by the gems turning into mist and we don’t see it when Dalinar captures nergaoul. You could say Eshonai didn’t see how humans captured spren, just compared the effect, but I think if spren can be captured in a gemtone without it vaporizing, there is no reason for the parshendis (or all) gemhearts to be different.
Taravangian and his Diagram disturb me. Sometimes I wonder if the capacity he asked for to save the world is the mercy and grief and brokenness he experiences when he’s less than intelligent. Maybe that’s the boon and his intelligence without mercy is the curse.
Thanks Alice & Lyn
This was definitely my least favorite of the prologues to date. Yes, it has the least amount of action of the three, but it hits me the hardest with the negative emotions. I feel bad for Eshonai (even moreso when it becomes obvious that Eshonai is dead). I like Gavilar less and less the more I find out about him. This is my least favorite section to reread in OB.
Venli: As I mentioned during the pre-release chapter comments, I find it rather noteworthy that Venli just happened to be with Klade when he heard the voice that directed him to buy Szeth. (Thanks for ushering in the apocalypse, Ulim!) I am skeptical if this is exactly when Venli fell under Odium’s sway, or if it was even some time before. Interesting theory that Ulim may have been hanging around Klade before moving on to Venli, though. However, my initial inclination would be that Ulim wouldn’t abandon a leader of the Listener’s for someone less influential.
Nice SFF references here, too! Babylon 5, Watchmen, Star Trek, The Good Place, etc. Keep them coming!
I forget the exact quote from the epigraphs, but it is implied that there is a perfect gem for each gem stone. The elsecaller’s claimed one of them to guard.
@25 msr:If a gem can hold stormlight and a gem can hold spren…is stormlight itself a type of spren? Or a part of spren?
Good question! It seems like stormlight is investiture, and I feel like there has been discussion on spren being sentient parts of investiture from Honor and/or Cultivation (and Odium). So is it as simple as spren are “awakened” stormlight? And if so, can they be “used” up? That seems far worse than just trapping them – if there are fabrials that could drain their essence. I don’t know the answers, but it is cool to think about.
@26 alahar:
Good analysis. You convinced me, it was fused trapped inside, not an unmade.
@30, Brandon has likened gems when getting charged to lightbulbs plugged into the spiritual realm where the power of the shards reside.
I think the double-eye symbol relates to how the eye color of Radiants change when they summon their shards. The double-eye is like the eyes of the radiant and the spren beginning to overlap.
@28 KiManiak
True, if Ulim was there (which I’m not sure about, but let’s say he was). I think you’re right that he wouldn’t normally abandon a leader of the Listeners for someone with less influence, but remember that Klade remains behind after the assassination when the rest of the Listeners flee, and was executed shortly after.
Ulim would have gone with the rest of the group, and would have needed to find a new Listener to manipulate.
Wasn’t the gemstone that Aesudan, and later Amaram, ate one of Gavilar’s? Perhaps I jumped to a conclusion without evidence there, but the one those two ate definitely contained Yelig-nar. And that’s why these re-reads are crucial to the big picture, thanks, A & L!
In some ways re-reading this has me even more confused than I was the first time, now that I know what’s coming. I also am still kinda fuzzy on the distinctions between voidspren, the kind of spren that cause ‘normal’ forms, and the ‘ancestors’. I also am still pretty unclear (although I’ve enjoyed the theories) on what exactly Gavilar knew/thought their gods were, how much he knew about the parsh nullform, how much he knew about what was in those spheres (do we know where he got them?) and what he thought he was accomplishing. Did he think the Parshendi would be on board with his plans, and were the Parshendi a part of his plans, or did he expect they’d all be wiped out?
I like the theory that Nale was the one behind the assassination though. Which might also relate to the chapter icon.
@34 Yelig-nar wasn’t in those gemstones from before, he was able to bond with them only after they swollowed a gemstone in place of a gemhearts. It could still be that those had to be perfectly cut gemstones, but seeing how rare they are I think it is unlikely.
“She left the unloading bay and walked up the steps into the palace proper, trying to take in the ornamentation, the artistry, the sheer overwhelming wonder of the building. Beautiful and terrible. People who were bought and sold maintained this place, but was that what freed the humans to create great works like the carvings on the pillars she passed, or the inlaid marble patterns on the floor?”
I find it really interesting that this is her response. The artist in her is almost able to set aside the slavery in awe of their accomplishments. I suppose they have known for a year at that point, so perhaps the original shock or outrage had worn down some. Still.
@36
Ah, ha. That explains it, many thanks! Synthetic gemhearts for humans. Which brings us back to the question of what is inside the gemstones. Another Unmade–Bo-Ado-Mishram has been suggested–just doesn’t feel right to me unless the Unmade are capable of working together, or actually need to for some reason. Bo-Ado-Mishram is one of the higher-functioning Unmade. Yelig-nar also seems to be further up the sentience scale. Do they really need each other to take over a human? That the spheres contain Fused or maybe a Voidspren seems more plausible at this point.
BTW – I’m looking forward to the yellow-white knife discussion.
Wow, I’m already late to the party… And most of my comments are already taken….
re several: yes, serfdom and indentured slavery were both much more historically common than the chattel slavery that we think of when we study US history etc. Not that it makes them better, though. It’s all levels or horrible.
I agree with @Braid_Tug, there is something about the Vibrant that Gavilar uses. I hope we get to see it with Venli at least, since we won’t see Eshoni. I was so sure she wasn’t really dead when the prologue was her POV. So the evil genius tricked me again.
I don’t agree that the gems were holding an Unmade. It seemed like Dalinar had to work to get the one at the end into that one perfect-and large-stone. I don’t think their essence can be split that way. Though I’m wrong more often than not, so this could be another of those.
Gavilar was super smart and knew a lot of things he ‘shouldn’t?’ have about voidbringers. And he was all about the grand plans-from conquering Alethkar onward- so I doubt even if he truly listened to how upset Eshoni was at her gods returning it would have changed his mind at all. He was just too driven
The Seals are weakening already, the DO can touch the world again. This time there is only one Seal (Herald) who is finally breaking.
Voidspren are probably little pieces of Odium, while the Fused are dead listeners.
Did Taravangian plan to use Gavilar’s assassination? It sounds like something he would do. Gavilar might not know what his “ally” really intends.
Later Elhokar is watched by symbolheads. That doesn’t make sense for Gavilar if he is a potential Bondsmith, but maybe other spren are watching, too.
Are Bondsmiths the only order that has language magic? It would fit Eshonai the explorer.
Sound is a form of vibration. Shallan could use both sound and light as a child because they are both vibrations. Do the listener songs mean that they are especially close to Lightweavers and that is why they are vibrant?
I enjoyed this prologue since it gives us much insight into Gavilar’s and Eshonai’s motivations, even if it wasn’t as action-oriented as the previous two. Interspecies communications must surely be challenging, but you really missed (or ignored) Eshonai’s distress at the thought of bring back their old gods, Gavilar.
Eshonai mentioned the Alethi Parshmen being in Dullform. IIRC, some were spies, like Shen/Rlain, and were indeed in Dullform, but the majority were in Slaveform/Nullform. So is Eshonai’s statement a mistaken assumption or is this a textural error?
One of the reasons I like these retreads is being introduced to other ideas that I haven’t even considered. The proposal that the assaination was the product of Nale made me step back and say yes, that is an idea I can get behind. I always has a problem with Ulim being the one to suggest the purchase of Szeth. Nale just seems to fit for me.
Are there rereads for the first two books?
@43
Yes, but they are not currently active. You can find them on Tor.com.
@42
I heartily agree about the new ideas. My headcanon was that it was Odium influencing Klade, but Nale or his spren fit nicely, if not better.
I wonder why Dalinar was never in the Sons of Honor. He and Gavilar were very close, Gavilar used him like a tool even though I believe they loved each other. It just seems like they’d be in there together. Yet it’s Amaram that is his partner in this.
As for what Gavilar knew, I just assumed it came from the Sons of Honor and what they had discovered over the years.
@45 The Dalinar of that time period wasn’t exactly reliable for anything other than mayhem. Gavilar had good reason not to make him into a confidante.
@45 By the time Gavilar joined them Dalinar was probably already a raging alcoholic. Not much he could have contributed to the Sons of Honor in that state.
If it has been since the last Desolation that the parhmen have been able to change, what is the hance that thing men captured that prevents them from changing is a 10th Unmade – everything on Roshar exists in 10’s ….9 Unmade just seems like there is a hidden 10th that we dont know about
@48 Kyle DeBlasio
True, everything on Roshar exists in 10s, because that’s Honor’s number. However, Odium’s number is 9, and as the Unmade are his creations, there are only nine of them. The Unmade are (very) roughly equivalent to the orders of Knights Radiant, except there is no Unmade for the Bondsmiths. As for the hidden Unmade, we still know very little about the Unmade as a whole, and we don’t even know for sure who the ninth one is, so it can still pop up in an unexpected place.
XS-Terrain
Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?
Brandon Sanderson
Eh… Kind of.
XS-Terrain
Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?
Brandon Sanderson
Bondsmith. But it’s not as one to one, there’s some fuzziness in there.
The double eye is a simpilifed representation of the Radiant Order-Power diagram, and is an in-universe symbol of Honor in Vorinisim, the Double-Eye. I’m pretty sure it was metnion at elast once in the books.
Well, speaking of “late to the party”… Most of the things I would have said have already been said, but I will apologize for not checking myself on a few easy things. Like the divine attributes associated with Nalan… which I knew, and have correctly noted in my own files, along with all the pictures and names and orders and stuff. My only excuse is that I’m swapping computers, and didn’t bother to search out the reference file I had for the WoR reread. If I had, I’d have made note that the Herald shown on the Prologue for WoR is actually Battar, who is indeed the patron of the Elsecallers. I’d also not have confused myself with the Learned/Giving vs. Just/Confident thing, which … well, I knew there was something wrong about it, but I couldn’t remember what. That’ll teach me to rely on my memory…
So… various thoughts and theories have triggered further thoughts. I can sort of believe that Gavilar knew more than we gave him credit for… but how? He wasn’t bonded to the Stormfather, so he didn’t get the history lesson Dalinar gets later. He certainly wasn’t a better scholar than Jasnah, to search out a lot of information she couldn’t find. The only possibility is that the Sons of Honor had access (and maybe thereafter hid?) a bunch of ancient history that no one else seems to have ever heard of – if you believe that Gavilar did indeed know about the Parshendi ancestors, and all that. Personally, I’m not convinced that he knew all the things we learn in this book about the relationship of the various Odium-bound beings – the Unmade, the various Voidspren, the ancestors/Fused, etc. I can’t prove he didn’t, but I’m not convinced he did. It doesn’t quite fit, for me.
Y’all have put forward some good theories about the identity of the voice that guided Klade to Szeth, though again, I don’t see any of them as firmly conclusive (yet). Cultivation was one of the Parshendi gods for all the generations prior to the arrival of humans, so she certainly could have used the Rhythms to communicate with them. While it makes sense to consider Nalan manipulating the Parshendi into assassinating Gavilar, there’s no reason he or his spren would necessarily know how to use the Rhythms. Ulim almost certainly could, even though he doesn’t do so later. And while Ulim might have had no reason to want Gavilar assassinated, no one knew about Gavilar’s plan at the point when Szeth was purchased. He might have simply wanted to get a trained killer and an Honorblade into the hands of the Parshendi. So… yeah, I don’t think we know yet. That’s another thing I should add to my list of questions for Brandon, except that I keep losing my list.
One thing that occurred to me about the Double Eye of the Almighty (which relates to a lot of other things, too): we already know that the Surges and the spren are connected as much to Cultivation as to Honor, right? But for some reason, the Vorin religion has forgotten about her; she’s relegated to either myth or heresy, depending on how you look at it. I wonder if the Double Eye originally represented the two Shards, and the understanding has shifted over time.
Ahoy! Some thing I would like to add.
In reference to Nale being in the chapter header –beside the justice theme– there’s a possibility that Nale was in conference with Gavilar when Eshonai looked in on their conversation. Amaram was the only one mentioned by name and the other guests were not described nor named. Gavilar and Nale are at least familiar with each other because they’re seen speaking in the Way of Kings prologue.
I’m fully on board that the violet charged gemstones are the unmade. The one that Gavilar gives to Szeth went to Jah Keved and it would stand that it was inhabited by Negaoul/The Thrill. Jah Keved ultimately falls at the end of Words of Radiance because of the succession war, the in-fighting goes completely overboard because the soldiers are not used to the proximity that Nergaoul has to them. Only a perfect gemstone can capture an unmade while not allowing any of it’s influence to seep out, Gavilar could have intentionally used a flawed stone so that it could seep out and influence people over the course of time (6 years in this case). The stone he gave to Eshonai could have been the same idea with a different Unmade.
I also believe that Cultivation is the one who spoke to Klade and got him to acquire Szeth. Cultivation is playing a the longest game of all the active shards. Her intent would be the one most allowing of war and death if it means that the new growth would be stronger. She could have foreseen that by whispering to Klade about Szeth would put him of a path of destruction but then he would grow to become a Knights Radiant.
If Cultivation was the one speaking to Klade about Szeth, then the plan/reluctance that Nale expressed to Kalak in Words of Radiance prologue could maybe infer that the captured unmade, or the knowledge on how to capture them, came from Nale/The Heralds.
Ohh, and Eshonai’s ability with languages is probably a resonance ability that she gets from being a Willshaper. Venli also has good grasp of language in Oathbringer and it makes a good resonance for the explorer class.
“So… if it’s not Taravangian or the Ghostbloods, who is watching him?” The Rememberers? There is at least one other conspiracy/cult on Roshar. (OK, more likely the Ghostbloods and/or Skybreakers, but I like the Rememberers and want to see more of them.)
“Eshonai had always told her sister that she was certain something wonderful lay over the next hill. Then one day, she’d crested a hill and found humans.” So, Eshonai is the Girl Who Climbed the Wall? Wow, this guy knows how to foreshadow.
@40, birgit:
Why would Elhokar have the same spren-affinity as his father? Jasnah doesn’t.
Just a funny Sanderson threw in: Eshonai thinks about Klade buying an “Alethi” slave. She has only just met humans, and can’t tell a Shin from an Alethi, even though they look very different to our (mental) eyes. Also she thinks that all humans have skin in shades of tan, because she hasn’t yet seen a Makabaki or Natan.
“Unite them.” Gavilar was seeing Honor’s visions. He was a proto-Bondsmith. Notice the hints that he was understanding the Rhythms using Connection?
@52, maxell:
Venli’s language abilities come from Envoyform. It’s, if not stated, strongly implied.
I find it interesting that the Pashendi fo not know the truth about the Parshmen. The Parshmen are the decendants of the singers who continued to follow Odium and the other Voidbringers up through the False Desolation. Their transformation into “slave form” (i.e. they could not form/hear the rhythms) was due to the actions of humans; but caused the same “Gods,” who the Parshendi’s descendants sought to escape from, to be in effect banished from Roshar. It truly is fascinating how much knowledge the Listeners lost when they embraced the Dullform.
(IIRC, Dullform and Mateform were the two original Forms that the Listeners used. It was not until sometime later in time they discovered Workform, Warform and Nimbleform. Please correct me if I am wrong about the initial use of which Forms.)
Some people may think my next point is controversial. Before you condemn me, here me out. Given what we know at the end of OB about who the parshmen really were (the singers who supported Odium and the Voidbringers in the fight against humanity), I do not think the genocide of the Singers/Listeners that Alice discusses in her paragraph in the Measured Motivation sections is genocide. I feel it is a casualty of war. The war is a fight of humans (Shin and other non-native current day Rosharians) against the Singers/Listeners. An overwhelming majority, of not all, of the Fused want nothing more than the complete annihilation of the humans. Despite the fact that the Fused and Regals have speared the humans (to be used as their own type of slaves) and apparent alliance with some nations of the western side of Roshar, I think their end game is the complete annihilation of all humans. When taken that way, every Singer (even those who have just awoken and are not Regal or Fused), will have to be defeated. This is especially the case with the effects of the Everstorm. It would be one thing if the humans were somehow able to destroy the Everstorm so that any Regals or Fused who are killed will not be reincarnated during the next passing of an Everstorm. I do not see it as a genocide, but rather a war of extinction. In my mind, a genocide is killing an entire people (be based on class, religion, race, ethnicity, etc.) where most if not all of those targeted are innocent. In this case, the awoken singers are not given the choice of staying on the sidelines. They are conscripted into the army (either as “cannon fodder” or bodies for additional Fused and Regals).
Many may think my distinction is just a different side of the same coin. I get that. I just happen to disagree. I view my distinction as somewhat analogous to the rational for the US dropping the bomb on Japan to end WWII. Unless confounded with a “doomsday” type of scenario (which the effect of the bombs were), the Japanese leaders would not have surrendered. Militarily, that would have left only one option: an assault on Japan by (primarily) US ground forces. Such an assault would have made (in my opinion) D-Day look like a military parade by comparison. As fierce a fighting force as the German military was (and I distinguish the common German military from the SS), they would surrender if defeat was inevitable. The Japanese soldiers, by contrast, would not surrender. They felt that surrender was by far the worst type of shame. Better to die than surrender. Hence, there use of Kamikaze attacks. Also, the bomb saved thousands of US POWs who were prisoners/slave laborers in Japanese war camps. Most of these prisoners could not have survived for much longer in such deplorable conditions.
I believe the two gemhearts that Gavilar had each contained an Unmade. I wonder if the Listeners kept that gemheart. In some ways, I think their leaders would not have. They wanted nothing to do with the Unmade. If they did not, then that gemheart is probably the gemheart that Aesudan mentioned when she told Elohkar she discovered the secret to the gemheart. That would make it probably either Yelig-nar or Ashertman. I lean towards Yelig-nar. It is easier to conceive of the mindless Ashertman being directed by the Fused or Regals to take root in Kholinar and then coming under the influence of Yelig-nar when Aesudan unlocked the secret of the gemheart. The alternative is that Aesudan was the cause of Ashertman taking hold in Khalinar. If so, it was very convenient for the Fused that its heart attached itself to the Oathgate. Also, if Aesudan unlocked Ashertman, then who delivered her the somkestone to swallow. It is possible that her letting Yelig-nar escape allowed her to “consume” Yelig-nar (before it consumed her) without the need to swallow a gemstone.
Also, it would not surprise me if King T somehow discovered where Szeth hide the one that Gavilar gave Szeth. Giving that to Odium is another great way for King T to get on Odium’s good side (if Odium even has a good side).
Maxwell @52. Nergaoul was not previously captured. Since the end of the Desolation where 9 of the 10 Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, Nergaoul has been around; primarily in Alethkar. Neragaoul is the cause of the Thrill. In the vision where Dalinar fights the Midnight Essence, the Windrunner tells Dalinar that the KRs are always on the look-out for new members. They can help perspective candidates counter the effects of the Thrill. After the Recreance and when the nation of Alethkar formed, it was known for its soldiers having the “benefit” of the Thrill. Until the start of the series proper, Alethi’s thought the Thrill was a good thing. Dalinar himself used to embrace the Thrill. This was why he was able to trap Neragoul.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
One thing we didn’t address was the identity and purpose of the people whose meeting Eshonai interrupted.
it’s a fair guess that this was the meeting where Gavilar told people about the visions, though we don’t know for sure. Pretending that it is… that would make Taravangian the old man in robes, and we know Amaram was one of the men in uniform. That leaves two women and another uniformed man, but I can’t currently recall anyone else saying Gavilar had told them. It seems reasonable that one of the women might be Adrotagia, since she’s always been in Taravangian’s counsels.
Not Navani, not Jasnah, not Sadeas. Who else would Gavilar trust?
Wetlander @55. Given what Aesudan tells Elhokar when they meet in OB, I think the second woman was Aesudan. Until we learn more, this is my slightly educated guess. However, I am open minded on this issue and can be convinced otherwise (unlike some of my other theories or positions).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
In OB Chapter 65, the Stormfather says that Dalinar can use “Spiritual Adhesion” to understand Azish. The other order with Adhesion is the Windrunners, but there’s no indication I can recall that they’re able to do this.
@36 In Chapter 118, Amaram is given a “small, uncut smokestone”, and told to ingest it. So it doesn’t seem like Yelig-nar requires a perfectly cut gem.
@carl 53, who are the Rememberers? The Coppermind says that they’re Forgers employed by the Heritage Faction on Sel, but I’m guessing that’s not who you meant.
Were you thinking of the Sleepless? That’s the group that hasn’t come up yet, although we know they watch people.
I hadn’t heard any of the theories on the voice before. I like the idea that Nale was behind it
Eshonai’s first POV section in WoR may have been the point at which I first began to really love this series. After a long time with the human soldiers on the Shattered Plains, fighting what seems a monolithic Monster Horde and only occasionally noticing that it includes women and boys as well as men, it was a wonderful surprise to begin learning firsthand about them — fundamentally un-human in mind and body, but with a culture and differing personalities. Eshonai’s personality was wonderful in itself, and I was distressed when she and the others seemed to become actual mindless monsters. But as we learn in this book, they…didn’t. It’s far more complex than I expected. And while I was saddened by the confirmation of Eshonai’s confirmed death, Venli stepped into the narrative void she left (ha, pun not intended) and had an arc I greatly enjoyed reading.
Not much to say about the rest. I want to know everything about the biology and ecology of Roshar’s flora and fauna, but am far less interested in its cosmology and magic-physics. This book eventually got me to pay attention to them as central plot elements, but I’ve done little speculation beyond the information it gives.
@49 Elle Could the Unmade correspond to Surges rather than Radiant orders? That would explain the fuzziness, as it were. But if Bondsmiths definitely don’t correspond to an Unmade, I wonder which Surge would be left out, Tension or Adhesion? (I’d guess Adhesion because of its associations with unifying and connecting, where Unmade tend to be more destructive.)
Alice and Lyndsey: You did great job on the Prologue. Thanks for sharing. One aspect that made the difference for me, was when you explained how the headers work. I had figured out who were the various pictures of the Heralds, when I was reading Words of Radiance. I still couldn’t make sense of why they were there. There is an eleventh figure that Sometimes appears on the arch. It wears a light colored mask over his eyes. I figured that it was Wit/Hoid, but didn’t know why he rates a place with the Heralds.
#34. Ways: .The stone used to infect the Queen, and that used to insert the unmade Yelig-nar into Amaram were not the same. We do not witness the full insertion of Aesudan, but we have a front seat for the Meridas Amaram experience. It begins on page 1131, chapter 118. Odium asks one of his underlings if he can locate suitable housing for the unmade. What was offered was a small uncut smokestone.
The major concern that I have with this methodology is does anyone think that Amaram will ever be normal again. The unmade appeared to be busy hollowing out his body and evaporating his internal bone structure and organs, replacing them with Crystal. It seems that this great gift is only for a short time (less than a day), before there is almost nothing left that is vaguely human. Perhaps Odium took a look at Amaram’s personality and decided that he was not a good candidate to use for future relationships. That he would be perfect for the fierce warrior unmade to overcome.
#43. Chris: The links to the rereads for the first two books were given in the Introduction to this reread. You will find them underneath the crazy comic picture in the beginning of the article.
“You may also know me from the reread of The Way of Kings, where I did the same thing, or from Words of Radiance, where I joined Carl in writing the reread itself. “
#45. Goddessimho: .Likely Dalinar was not invited to join because he hated planning meeting and rarely paid attention. All he wanted was to go back into battle. Then he felt alive. The more difficult the for the better. He liked challenges.
@57, Zizoz:
Just as his Tension is different from a Stoneward’s, his Adhesion is presumably different from a Windrunner’s. Kaladin in particular and the Windrunners in general do show powerful Spiritual Connection abilities, if you look–Kaladin is just as good a natural leader as Dalinar, in a different way, and the Windrunners were famous even in ancient times as (if I remember the quote right) “Rich in squires.”
I was thinking of the Envisagers. (As I mentioned in a previous thread, I kind of think Kaladin’s mother is one, just randomly based on one tiny subscene.)
@51 Wetlandernw
I think you’re right about the Double Eye, especially since the two vertical pupils seem to represent the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers, who I think are the orders most closely related to Honor and Cultivation (interestingly, it’s the two orders’ closest to them, Windrunners and Edgedancers who bond with spren named for the gods, Honorspren and Cultivationspren).
I think we can say with relative certainty that the old Knights Radiant did remember Cultivation, as there are images of her in Urithiru, which Shallan discovers in chapter 29. I really hope we can have a discussion about this when we get there, as now that we’ve seen all three of the gods, I’m very curious about the meaning of the images Shallan sees:
1. A man with a blue circle (a shardpool?)
2. A woman in the shape of a tree
3. ‘The Almighty’, a cloud bursting with (golden?) light
But by now Cultivation is indeed probably mostly relegated to either myth of heresy. We know that she’s apparently worshipped ‘in the west’, but all the western countries we’ve seen worship the One (Iri, Rira), the Heralds (Azir, Emul, Tukar (kind of)) or some other god (the Purelake, Tashikk).
The Shin might worship a (male) version of Cultivation (He who adds), but I get the feeling none of the Vorin countries have any idea about what’s going on in Shinovar. So the only options left are some of the smaller countries we don’t know that much about, and I don’t get the feeling any of our main characters think they’re important politically. Poor Cultivation.
@59 Reiko
That’s very possible, but that makes me curious which Unmade corresponds to which surge. If your theory is true, it probably means Re-Shephir is connected to the Illumination surge, which is why both Shallan and Renarin could sense her in Urithiru.
Adhesion does sound like it has to do with bringing things together, and that is definitely how Kaladin and Dalinar are using it, but in the Ars Arcanum it’s also called the surge of Pressure and Vacuum, both of which are definitely capable of destruction. I wonder if the fuzziness doesn’t come from the fact that the Unmade are using Voidbinding, or some Void-version of the surges.
@62 Carl
I’m very curious to know what scene you noticed that made you think Kaladin’s mother is an Envisager? I always thought the Envisagers were one specific group of people in one city, who believed in Old Vorinism, wanted the Knights Radiant to return, and placed themselves in mortal danger to achieve this.
I don’t think the last one fits with Hesina. I do believe she might follow old Vorinism (though we don’t exactly know what that is), and that she wants the Knights Radiant to return.
If I say nothing else, I will say I absolutely love the wonderful maps.
@Wetlandernw:
Thinking about what Gavilar and the Sons of Honor knew, I wonder if since their goal is to restore the Vorin Church to its former glory, perhaps they retained some of the records from the Heirocracy (sp?). It seems possible that the church at that time had records they would have kept hidden from the population at large and maybe some of those survived in this group.
Also, regarding the double-eye, I agree that it could have actually represented both Cultivation and Honor before as when it is used as the basis of the surge chart that seems to be the implication. I hope you and Lyndsey at some point do a little discussion on how the religions seem to be based on the three shards. The One seems to have latched on to Cultivation, Vorinism latched on to Honor, and the Passions seems to be the original human religion based on Odium.
@53 Carl:
I wonder then if Envoy form is a mimicry of Willshapers then, as it seems to equip one for exploration/travel. But perhaps it isn’t high enough up the Void chain? The Windrunner, and Edgedancer copies seem to be Fused, while Envoy form seems to be a standard Voidform, so I don’t know. Anyway, if Envoy form is similar to Willshapers, then it is serendipitous that that is the order Venli has now joined. She is both the Void and Radiant form of the same order.
@any:
The unmade seem to have bad consequences (duh!) whether direct – the midnight mother making evil shadow-slime creatures – or indirect – the heart driving you to excess, the thrill driving you to battle madness. And while they may have some temporary benefits (see the Thrill) they all have obvious drawbacks. Except, it seems, the Death Rattles. That unmade (Nerghoul?) just seems to give insights to the future/lets the dying see into shadesmar. And while seeing the future is “of the voidbringers” I don’t see an obvious downside. It seems helpful, right? Unless… and here is my conjecture that I would appreciate thoughts from y’all… the snippets given are controlled to only focus on negatives, if the end goal of the rattles is to create a sense of hopelessness and despair. If so, I wonder if the Diagram’s focus on collecting those has led to them becoming more hopeless about the fight and has led to Mr. T being more and more willing to accept saving less from Odium and eventually join him. Has the despair of the Death Rattles infected him and his group?
I am sure it has been mentioned by someone and I have simply missed it, but I have not noticed it before reading it now in Whitespine’s comment, where it caught my eye like fresh blue paint on a wall.
And while seeing the future is “of the voidbringers” – what might be the implication, now that we know that the humans are the original voidbringers?
Wetlandernw @51:
What makes you think that a spren of Odium could speak to normal Rosharan Rythms? Voidspren that bestow forms of power make it almost impossible for the singers to attune or speak to the “old” rythms, after all, and Odium is external to Roshar, while Honor and Cultivation, by the virtue of being heavily invested and first to arrive, are intrinsic to it. It is much more logical for a spren made of of the mix of Honor’s and Cultivation’s investiture to be able to speak to the rythms – such as Nale’s bonded highspren. IMHO, Klade would have been much more suspicious if the “voice” had been talking in unfamiliar rythms. And also, the Heralds themselves seem to have innate ability to speak any Rosharan language perfectly, which may extend to speaking to the rythms, as they are deeply connected to the world and highly invested by Honor.
Cultivation herself arranging it I could see, except she seems to prefer to act through intermediaries. Still, could have been her. But then, why have quadruple Nalan on the chapter heading? Surely he or themes connected to him must be very heavily involved. Now, the listener elders + Eshonai as expert on humans did condemn Gavilar to death, but shouldn’t this be good only for a double Nalan + Kalak for Eshonai’s very vividly demonstrate Willshaper nature in this chapter?
Maxell @52:
I am pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere in WoR that Alethi were surprised at how quickly the Parshendi learned their language after that fateful first meeting – they may just be generally gifted in that respect.
AnrewHB @54:
Except that certain scene in part V suggests that parshmen genocide wouldn’t have solved much of anything, as Odium has other options. It would have only served to fan the hatred more. OTOH, it was logical for Gavilar to think that pre-emptively showing the world the danger of parshmen and using a False Desolation to prepare for the Final one of his visions would be a good idea.
BTW – isn’t it interesting that Gavilar had been able to keep his visions secret? Was enacting them Dalinar’s personal quirk?
Carl @62:
Please, tell me more about your theory of Hesina’s family being Envisagers. I have just re-read WoK and there is a hint that Hesina might have been Kharabrantian, i.e.:
“When you get to Kharabranth, stay there.” His voice was slurred. “Don’t get sucked back to this tiny, backward, foolish town. Don’t force you beautiful wife to live away from everyone else she’s ever known or loved”
Which could be interesting. Maybe Taravangian’s servant Maben is her sister, eh? And will fess up about the Diagram at some point?
Following up on a question Lyndsey made: How many dark spheres are there and can we account for them all? Here’s what I recall, but I don’t trust myself, so please chime in:
1. Gavilar presented one to Eshonai. Can’t recall if she took with her. If she did, what become of it during the war? What have then done with it since the Great Fusion (not sure if that’s a term, but meaning since birth of the Everstorm)
2. Gavilar gave one to Szeth and told him that “they” must not get it. Not sure who they is. Szeth hid it in Jah Keved and it is apparently still there.
3. Aesudan Kholin apparently had one. Did it consume her?
4. I got the impression that Odium gave one to Amaram and that is what caused his transformation. Was that the same one that Aesudan had?
There seem to be several heralds around. Did Gavilar learn history from them?
It is strange that the dead god Honor is still remembered while the living Cultivation was forgotten. But maybe other cultures we haven’t met yet worship her instead. The nations also seem to originate from a separation of tasks between the Orders (Alethi = soldiers, Azir = bureaucrats, etc.). The Vorin nations might be on the Honor side while other nations are on the Cultivation side of the Double Eye.
The spren in the sphere Gavilar gave Eshonai can’t have been a stormspren because she would have recognized it later and not agreed to the transformation.
AndrewHB @54 – Okay, I disagree, but more with your redefinition of terms than anything. You say
However, that’s not the actual definition. According to Merriam-Webster, genocide is defined as
which was the definition I was using. IMO, the way it was stacked up in the first half (or so) of Oathbringer, it looked like there was going to be a genocide – it was just a question of which race would destroy the other first, and no one was asking questions about whether any were “innocent” or not. If the humans didn’t destroy all the Parsh, there would still be hosts for the ancestors; if the Parsh didn’t destroy all the humans, the ancestors would never be appeased. It was, to all appearances, a species conflict: Humans vs. Voidbringers. By the end of the book, we’re looking at something different, of course; some humans are aligned with Odium, while some (few, so far) of the Parsh are aligned with Cultivation & Honor, and the definition of “Voidbringer” has gotten… rather messy.
AndrewHB @56 – Aesudan is a good possibility for one of the women. She knew at least some of what Gavilar was up to, somehow. Whether that’s because she was part of his counsels, or because someone else told her after his death, we can’t be sure. I have a hard time believing that Gavilar would trust Aesudan more than Navani, but … we don’t know much about six-years-ago Aesudan (except that Jasnah was watching her closely) or the relationship she had with her father-in-law.
AlerieCorbray @60 – The eleventh image is one I refer to as “the Joker.” He’s there whenever Hoid makes an appearance, for sure, but he’s also there to indicate a “wild card” element… which might or might not be Hoid. You’ll see several chapters in Oathbringer where we get the Joker without Hoid. I’ll let you half-way in on a little secret. I asked Peter prior to the WoR reread about the significance of the Heralds, and he told me basically what I said in the post above. There’s one more element which hasn’t been mentioned publicly, so I’m not going to leak that, but I’m watching the Herald icons very closely to see if I can spot it happening. If I can find/recognize it, I’ll beg permission to reveal it!!
Elle @63 – “(interestingly, it’s the two orders’ closest to them, Windrunners and Edgedancers who bond with spren named for the gods, Honorspren and Cultivationspren).” I’ve noticed that, too! It seems funny, but… there it is. I wonder if we’ll ever find out why. As for Cultivation… as you say, not everyone has forgotten her, and she’s revered in some of the western countries. It’s just the Vorin peoples that shoved her out of their religion somewhere in the past. But it might have been partly her own doing; she seems to have “gone underground” so to speak, since Honor was shattered. I suspect it may have all been part of her long game, “disappearing” in order to avoid any direct conflict with Odium. I have a theory that Honor & Cultivation worked it out together; Honor would visibly die to provide cover for Cultivation to hide, leaving as much of his power as he could in the person of the Stormfather. We’ll see.
And… more later. I have to run.
@@@@@ 63 “I think you’re right about the Double Eye, especially since the two vertical pupils seem to represent the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers, who I think are the orders most closely related to Honor and Cultivation”. I wondered about that too, if those two are central because they are closest to their respective Shards. The one inconsistency with this though is when you look at the Bondsmith spren. As you know apparently there can only be at most three Bondsmiths: one for the Stormfather, one for the Nightwatcher, and one for The Sibling. IIRC the Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. By extension, I suppose the Nightwatcher is a splinter of Cultivation. So I would think that the Bondsmiths are equally related to Honor and Cultivation. What then is special about Truthwatchers?
If the pattern is that Bondsmiths bond splinters, then it begs the question of who The Sibling is. A splinter of an as yet unidentified 4th Shard with a Rosharan presence? I tried looking up on the forums to see if anyone else had this idea. I came across this link: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/60951-shards-of-roshar/. In one of the epigraphs (I think WOK) we read “Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.” Someone asked Brandon “Did Odium follow three other shards to Roshar, or is he the third Shard?” WOB: “Odium is the third Shard on Roshar.” Is it just me, or does this reply still leave some wiggle room for a 4th shard being present?
@many, re: the “voice” that Venli and Klade hear – I thought it was almost a given that the voice was likely Ulim, but I am now open to the possibility that the voice was Cultivation or someone else (although I think Odium or Nale are each stretches, for a number of reasons). Cultivation likes to play the long game (like maxell@52 also noted), so if she wasn’t directly behind it, I could see her being indirectly involved.
Re: the orb – I think it was one of the Unmade, imprisoned just like we later find out Re-Shepnir was imprisoned. I have no clue of which one Gavilar gives to Eshonai or to Szeth, though.
Gavilar’s knowledge – He appears to know more of desolation related events than anyone else, including his brilliant daughter. I am really curious as to where he got his info from.
@19 – I think we can safely ascertain 3 to 5 Heralds presence on the day of Gavilar’s death (Nale, Kalak, Jezrien, maybe Shallash, and maybe Chana-as-Liss), which strongly implies they either had a hand in that day’s events or were guided to be there for whatever reason. One of my main issues with assigning Nale as the force behind Gavilar’s assassination is that we have no proof that Nale would be able to speak to Venli/Klade with the Rhythms without Venli/Klade being able to identify the culprit as only “a voice.” I see Wet@51 also makes this point.
@33 – Solid point about Ulim. Maybe he didn’t know that Klade would agree to stay behind and sacrifice himself.
@62 – Interesting theory about Kaladin’s mom being an Envisager. She did seem rather excited to see her son levitate and glow…
@71 – I think there are just the 3 Shards that we know about in the Rosharan system. However, if you want to treat the wording of the epigraph a little more “literally,” than “the Broken” one could refer to: Honor, Dominion, Devotion, or even **Cosmere Spoilers** Ambition. It’s highly unlikely that Dominion/Devotion are playing any kind of role on Roshar, but a (relatively weak) case for the other 2 could be made. Honor is still identified as “The Almighty” by the Vorin faithful, so it could be perceived that Honor reigns. As for **Cosmere Spoilers** Ambition, I believe we find out in Arcanum Unbound that Odium ripped off chunks of Ambition’s power. What if Odium is using some of those chunks to corrupt Honor/Cultivation’s Investiture? Basically, he’s using portions of another Shard’s investiture to aid him, instead of only using his own? That corruption could be what “reigns” over Roshar. I haven’t a clue as to how he’s doing it, mind you. Just a theory.
@72 Yes that’s an interesting take on it. As you say we don’t really have much proof of anything beyond the known three of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.
Still, I’m very curious to know more about The Sibling and how he/she relates to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. I know it’s early in the reread yet but I’m excited to hear others thoughts on this as we get further in. My current hypothesis is that the Sibling is what is supposed to power Urithiru, and that there is a Significant Connection between the Sibling, the stone strata of Urithiru that attention keeps being drawn to, the rocks the Tien always found to help Kaladin, and the Stone Shamanism religion of the Shin. I would be tickled to learn of a 4th shard but my guesses are rarely correct.
Incidentally, if Honor and Cultivation were romantically connected, is it possible for two Shards to have a child? If so what kind of being would that be and what power would it have?
Budget is tight, but I’m next on the library’s lending list. Should be a blast!
The Prologue’s end is an excellent portrayal of a person’s desperate mental attempts to be in the moment intertwined with the thoughts she’s fighting to keep away.
That map is beautiful. I just love the graceful shape of the continent on Roshar. Sometimes it looks to me as if it were wrought from fire, with edges uneven as flickering flames, giving off archipelagos of sparks. But gazing at it today, I saw it as a sea serpent undulating through the water — Longbrow’s Straits shape a mouth opening to eat Thaylenah, the lake by Rathalas could be an eye, mountains are uneven patches of spiky scales, its ragged edges could be fins or other outgrowths, and islands like bubbles trail in its wake.
The people that gavilar says is watching him could also be the skybreakers. We know that nalan and kalek walk through the halls and pass jasnah on her way to her meeting. Nalan was investigating the kolin house for a member who was close to forming a nahel bond. He was paying close attention to gavilar and after his death nalan moved on.
Isn’t there a theory that some spren (maybe Cusicesh?) are pieces of pre-shattering Adonalsium? Could there be a third Bondsmith bonded to an Adonalsium spren?
If the strata in Urithiru aren’t just a natural geological feature they could be “cables” for the big fabrial. Gemstones can hold stormlight. A vein of the right minerals could be a conductor for Stormlight instead of electricity.
Reading through my notes on the prologue, I was speculating about how other humans tend to see the Alethi as reserved and stoic, but to Eshonai they are wildly expressive. But they never speak to the Rhythms, and she is uneasily fascinated by their one-formed-ness. And to humans, Parsh must seem strange and unfeeling–they only loosely hear the rhythms, and it’s rare for Parsh to attract emotionspren. (Maybe because of their formspren?) Communicating with each other must be so unnerving for both parties!
Some notes on Vorin slavery: it does seem possible for slaves to buy their way free–it’s a condition of enslavement, I think– but it would take a long time, and of course it is subject to abuses such as unscrupulous masters pocketing the money and recording that it was never set down (which is what Kaladin suspects happened to him when he’s sold to the warcamps and sees his record). This is probably not helped by many darkeyes, even the women, being illiterate. Also, it can be passed down to a slave’s children if their debt isn’t paid. It can be entered voluntarily, usually because of debt, which leaves the poor slave at a horrendous disadvantage starting out, of course. “Voluntary” slaves are tatooed instead of branded. Criminals who are sentenced to slavery for really bad crimes, however, are branded, like Kaladin. Maybe all deserters are branded? It seems very similar to the indentured servitude practiced in the early days of the United States colonization in some respects, and just as prone to abuse.
Icons: I’ve also wondered if the Heralds appear on chapters where their values are being perverted instead of demonstrated. Nale, at least, seemed particularly prone to this in the first two books. I think this was speculated on in the previous threads, I know I didn’t come up with the idea on my own.
On the identity of the Rhythm Voice, I had also assumed it was Ulim, but the post and comments have made me question it. While I think that Nale and Chana-as-Liss are possible, I’m not sure it would be in character with either if they hoped to start a Desolation, since all the Heralds seem hellbent on avoiding anything that might lead that way–especially Nale. Of course, if Liss is Chana, and if the Dustbringers as a whole have defected from Honor (which I hope isn’t the case), or if they thought they might nip a Desolation in the bud by killing Gavilar, it could be possible. But the strongest contender is probably Cultivation or Odium himself. Doesn’t he speak in the Rhythms when he’s browbeating Venli? I also assumed that when Gavilar gave the black gemstone to Szeth, the “they” who must not get it was the Parshendi, but maybe he actually meant the Ghostbloods? This reread is amazing at tearing down assumptions, or at least creating cracks for the doubts to wriggle through!
@67 Isilel: There’s nothing to contradict that Hesina could be from Karbranth. IIRC Lirin went there in some capacity besides a surgeon; he learned to be a surgeon from someone in a larger town in Alethkar. I’d have to look that up. BUT! If she was from Karbranth, would that mean Odium’s deal with Mr. T applied to her and her family? Odium agrees to spare “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses.” They might have to be in the city to count, but if Hesina is from Karbranth and decides that the end of the world is a good time to reconcile with her family, I can see this being used as a lever against Kaladin. Not that I think he’d take that deal, but it would definetely cause him extra suffering to have to turn it down. I don’t think that would cover Oroden, though. He wasn’t born in the city, and obviously won’t be married in the foreseeable future.
@75 AeronaGreyjoy: That is such a poetic description!
Regarding Parshmen and Parshendi:
My take on their relationship is that the split between the two groups happened before the Parshmen were stripped of their bonds. Perhaps the Parshendi even helped the humans to figure out how to trigger the effect, as part of their rebellion against their gods. That would help to explain why the Parshendi aren’t also stuck in slave form. If they were already in dull and mate forms as part of rejecting the influence of their gods, then they would have been immune to the effect when the Parshmen were stripped of their old forms and forced into slave form, since the Parshendi had rejected the corrupted bonds of the old forms of power (which I’m assume would have carried with them the taint that was used to strip them from their bearers).
@73, Izzos:
Shards are not physical and can’t have a child in the same way we physical beings can. Their Vessels do retain their bodies until they finally die–we see (Cosmere spoiler follows) Leras’s body materialize when Ruin finally kills him, and Kelsier takes up the Shard.
“Klade claimed that a voice–speaking to the rhythms–had led him to the man.”
It was also mentioned that Venli was there with him, so it may still have been the same one that she was talking to.
#70 Wetlandernw: .Thanks for explaining the eleventh image of the Joker. I had made a chart, so that I could tell who was who, but I had no Joker information until now. I also didn’t know that it could be a described of what happened in the chapter. Without that information, I had given up, so now, I am ready to give the icons another shot at figuring out their meanings.
The mention of the unknown element sounds very interesting. I will keep an eye out anything odd.
I assume someone has mentioned this before, but I assume it’s not coincidental that Roshar is shaped like a hurricane? At least that was my first impression the first time I saw it after listening to the audiobooks.
Roshar has the shape of a Julia set fractal.
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6912-hidden-things-in-map-of-roshar/
#84. Birgit: Wow. Thanks for sharing. So, a Julia set Fractal is a math thing?
Sorry. The system did it to me again. Happy Super Bowl.
Many. I am rereading again the passage where Elhokar and Aesudan are arguing about what the King finds in the palace, the Queen brings his father into the discussion. That he had grand plans, that she continued his work, she found the secret of bonding with the ancient spren. After that the exact mechanism becomes less clear. Page 813 in Oathbringer Chapter 34. The Queen brags about her radiants, what she has turned her Queen’s guard in recent days. She admits on page 814 that she has taken the gemstone into her for Yelig-nar. Not as clear as the write up when Amaram swallowed a gemstone for the same unmade. Which was very clear except for one of the first steps. There is also a line somewhere, where someone asks Odium, had he found a way to bond the voidspren to humans. And he smiles. I can’t find that citation at the moment.
Where I am headed with the above is what was in the two spheres that King Gavilar gives to Eshonai and Szeth on that last day of life. Now that was six years before our current time. So there was time for folks to mess around with the devices and figure out something that worked. Humans don’t have gem hearts, so the Parshendi could skip the first step. This would not work as intended until the Parshendi Listeners had sung up the Everstorm. The Everstorm is full of voidspren and makes the right conditions for bonding a troop of warriors. This is easier now that the storm is frequently returning.
Step one for humans is to swallow a gemstone heart.
Step two is to stand in the Everstorm and be prepared to receive your spren. Having one precaptured makes it sure and easy, just smash the container.
Step three is when the eyes of your troops go red, they are ready to command. You will have an unbeatable force if you now swallow the gemstone containing Yelig-nar.
What was in each sphere was a voidspren for the common soldier.
@73 – My theory on the Stone Shamanism of the Shin is that it’s a tradition relating back to the original arrival of humans on Roshar. The humans were supposed to stay in their little piece that had been given to them (now known as Shinovar) where there was soil. The rest of the continent was plain stone because of the highstorms and they were forbidden to go there. Over time it became holy because stepping on it was directly breaking a promise they made to the gods.
That could all be completely wrong. I think we’ve barely scratched the surface of what’s actually going on with the Shin, and I’m sure there are going to be lots of surprises (hopefully) in the next book. Surely Dalinar and Szeth are going to sit down and discuss things.
@73 & @88: all this talk of stone makes me think Taln might become incredibly important – on top of him being a Herald and all. if he can get his head back together.
@70 Wetlandernw
I’ve honestly never even considered that Honor’s death might have been part of any plan. Especially considering that Honor and Cultivation were in a relationship, and that the quotes and WoBs we have suggest she tried to rescue him. They also suggest that she still mourns his death:
‘Wyndle moved along beside Lift. “Mother has given up on your kind. I can feel it. She doesn’t care any longer. Now that He’s gone…”‘
And
Seonid
If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?
Brandon Sanderson
She did.
We don’t know if she was hiding before Honor’s death, but it does sound to me like she put herself in danger in order to try and protect Tanavast. It was only after his death that she hid away, to start planning for Odium’s demise. I kind of trust Wyndle’s opinion that Cultivation is no longer really interested in humans, but I also believe she’s still ‘in the fight’, if only to beat Odium.
Of course none of this means that Cultivation didn’t use Honor’s death to hide, or that she didn’t somehow manage to maneouvre events so that the Stormfather ended up with parts of Honor’s power. She is a chessmaster after all, and she seems to be willing to use everyone and all sorts of risky maneouvres to achieve Odium’s defeat.
@71 Izzos
Yeah, the Bondsmiths have the special spren, and as far as we know, the Truthwatches don’t. But on the other hand, all the focus on the importance of symmetry in the story seem to suggest to me that the Truthwatchers are very important, somehow. I guess we’ll see in oh, 15 years? When we reach Renarin’s book. :)
About the Sibling, I believe that technically all spren are splinters (As splinters seem to be sapient bits of investiture, with a specific intent (such as honor, or lies)). The Stormfather, Nightwatcher and the Sibling just all seem to be very powerful splinters, and the Sibling could simply be an even mix of Honor and Cultivation’s investiture. It’s possible that there’s a fourth shard, but I don’t think it’s very likely, mostly because Odium seems to murder every shard that gets within range.
@72 KiManiak
Oh, I think from what we’ve seen of Ulim we can probably assume he’d never even consider that someone would willingly stay behind as a sacrifice to save someone else. But from what the prologue and Jasnah’s prologue in WoR seems to tell us, the Listeners found out about Gavilar’s plans and set up the assassination. At the same time they figured out a plan to allow as many Listeners as possible to escape, by leaving the three leaders behind. Ulim would have either gone with the group if he couldn’t dissuade Klade, or followed shortly after.
Great, a double post. Oh well.
I was curious about the fabrial Gavilar showed to Eshonai. It seemed to suggest that before this, heating fabrials didn’t really exist. It looks like fabrial technology developed really quickly within the past decades in Roshar, and it seems to be speeding up.
Of course Alethkar is not the only place where fabrials were being developed, but I do wonder if it has something to do with the fact that Alethkar is at ‘peace’ for the first time in roughly 500 years.
Hi. Apologies if any of this has been covered. Here’s what I got rereading the prologue.
40 words into the book, and I saw a big hint to the big reveal spelled out.
I noticed that Eshonai felt the heating fabrial was lifeless. (Almost like it’s powered by something that is dead?)
The orb that the king shows Eshonai is faintly purple in colour. I have it in my head that the other one (that he gave to szeth) was green? If so, do each of the parshandi gods / unmade represent an essence? It’s been speculated that the knife Moash used on Jezrien was significant due to the gem. I’ve got to look at the orb in the WoK prologue.
This quote caught my eye: “Ah, but this is for your good, and for ours.” He stood up. “We live without honor, for your gods once brought ours.” – what does that mean. Your gods once brought ours?
Finally, on Klade, Venli and the voidspreen (Forgot it’s name). People are wondering about Klade hearing it, and it going to the sisters after Klades death. But Venli was with Klade when they brought Szeth, so it’s possible it was following Venli all along. Thoughts?
I’m now to these rereads and I said last week that I fall roughly in the middle when it comes to cosmere knowledge so some of my musings may be flawed. Plus next week, I’ll try and organise my post better. :)
@92 the quote about the listener gods bringing the alethi gods was referring to the heralds. Gavilar wants them to return, to bring the vorin church back into dominance.
#92 & #93: That quote makes sense. If the Heralds showed up from Braize, then the “gods” of the Parshendi, the Fused, would also be able to return to Roshar. That is under normal circumstances. Of course, the King didn’t know was that for the last 4500 years, humans had had a kind of peace because only one herald died in the last Desolation and the rest chose not to return to Damnation. The Heralds had been hiding in plain sight. Everybody was given 4500 years of rest, because that is how long it took Odium and crew to break that last Herald. He had never broken before. So, when he broke, that signaled the start of the Desolation. Gavilar seemed to think that the return of the Parshendi gods was a good thing, but may not have been aware that the returning Fused would need Listener bodies that were ready to receive the ancient spirits of their ancestors.
#88 Matt:. I like your stone vs soil theory. Of course, that is subject to any new material that we may learn about the Shin. I guess you could call it restrictions via religious traditions.
@86 I don’t have the book on me so I cannot check, but isn’t there a passage in the book where some of Kalladin’s followers will try anything to be able to glow including eating gemstones?
If so, some squires might become corrupted if caught in the Everstorm.
#96:. I don’t remember where the passage was, but I remember something like that, only it wasn’t the Bridge Four members, but the others around them, who were not squires. I suspect it occurred about the time that Bridge Four began running a recruitment. Many of those not selected for a try out, would do anything to raise their chances of getting into the tryouts.
One suspects Gavilar was saying “… without Honor” meaning his god, aka “The Almighty.” He was a member of the Sons of Honor conspiracy (along with Meridas Amaram). Eshonai presumably didn’t know that “Honor” was the name of the Vorin god.
Ah yes. That would make more sense for it to mean the heralds. I was trying to apply it to the Shards. Cheers.
oh and I check wok re the orb, it’s just a black light. No green. Dunno why I misremembered that.
@@@@@ 98 Carl
Ohh, you’re probably right. I’m not actually sure that most Vorin people know that the Almighty was also called Honor, but if Gavilar had the same visions as Dalinar, he might have known. Only, while the Stormfather calls Kaladin Child/Son of Tanavast/Honor several times through Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, I don’t think we ever see him call Dalinar that.
Does that mean the Stormfather talked more to Gavilar than he did to Dalinar? Or that Gavilar was further on the Bondsmith path (not including Dalinar’s progress in Oathbringer)? Otherwise I’m not sure how he would know the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher like using that term to refer to humans.
Also, wouldn’t the original Singers have known the name of their gods? Honor and Cultivation were originally their gods, after all, and I do believe there’s some reference to them in the Listener songs.
Elle @100, congratulations on the hunny (the first of this reread, if I’m not mistaken) :)
Only, while the Stormfather calls Kaladin Child/Son of Tanavast/Honor several times through Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, I don’t think we ever see him call Dalinar that.
I actually asked the same thing during the preview chapters’ discussion, and people kindly reminded that he does. From chapter 83 of WOR, Stormfather to Dalinar:
“I said I am not, child of Honor.”
@@@@@ 101 Celbrinnen
Thanks! It appears my e-reader’s search function has failed me somehow. :( Still, that’s pretty late in the story, at that point Dalinar is pretty close to swearing the second Ideal. If the Stormfather followed a similar strategy with Gavilar as he does with Dalinar (not really talking to Dalinar at all for the first few (6?) months), that means it’s likely that Gavilar at the very least progressed past the first Ideal.
I do wonder how Gavilar interpreted those Oaths. Interestingly, I think the literal words of the second Oath could fit quite well with his actions (I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together. Or something similar). However, he seems to be completely missing the Journey before Destination part of the first Oath, which I think is a rather integral part of being a Knight Radiant.. Is this another example that shows us that Surgebinders (and even KR) don’t specifically have to be good people?
@100-102 – According to the Stormfather, Gavilar did not bond him. During Dalinar and Navani’s wedding, Stormfather states Dalinar is the only one to have bonded him in a long time:
Gavilar may have heard that term through supernatural means, but it couldn’t have been via bonding the Stormfather.
What do we know that we didn’t know before? We know three of the five people, who were with King Gavilar that deadly night. They were Meridas Amaram, King Taravangian, and Queen Aesudan. The unidentified are an officer and a lady in a long gown. We know that Gavilar was seeking to “Unite them.” So it sounds like he had been listening to Honor’s visions. Which means that he has been told that Honor was dead. Eshonai keeps telling him that her people do not want their gods to return. They have been gone for 4500 years. Of course, neither party knows that the spirits of the Fused will be returning anyway, now that the last Herald has been broken. At the top of page 24, he comes right out and names the Heralds as the group, he wishes to bring out of hiding. Those are his gods he wants to return. Apparently he sees the return of the Desolation as a perfect means to Unite his people and bring back the Heralds and the Radiants.
@@@@@ 103 KiManiak
Hmm, that’s true. But I think the word ‘bond’ is much more nebulous than ‘bind’, which is what the Stormfather uses (he is of course very suspicious of humans, which is why he’s a lot more unwilling than Syl or Pattern about all of this). But even if Gavilar never got very far on the Bondsmith path, we do know he was on it:
Ted Herman
Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes to both.
(Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.)
I think we can interpret this WoB in three different ways:
1. WoBs are not always canon, and Brandon Sanderson sometimes changes his mind about details of the book, and that’s what happened here.
2. The first (shared) Ideal doesn’t really count as ‘binding’, and it is only after the KR reach the second Ideal, that they can hurt their spren by breaking Oaths.
3. Gavilar was starting to bond one of the other two Bondsmith spren.
I think we can ignore number 3 immediately. We know Gavilar saw the same visions as Dalinar, and the Stormfather was the spren charged with showing these visions to humans. Argument 1 is possible, but there’s no real way for us to know that, and we do know Gavilar spoke to the Stormfather/saw those visions at one point.
I think 2 is most likely, and that the first shared ideal is just a start towards Radianthood, but it is not until the second (individual per order) ideal is said, that the bond is truly ‘binding’, and that it will start hurting the spren when the human breaks their oaths (see: Kaladin in WoR, I think also Shallan before WoK). Probably each oath will strenghten the bond, up until the fifth Ideal, at least according to Captain Ico: ‘Not too late. killing you would free her – though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.’
Gavilar, by this argument, would have been hovering between Ideal 1 and 2 ‘for far longer than Dalinar has been’, and at some point the Stormfather talked to him, and called him a Son of Honor. Does that sound possible?
My reference was to a known conspiracy on Roshar, which Amaram belonged to, who call themselves “Sons of Honor” and want to bring back the Heralds even if it means another Desolation. Graves is also a member until his own death and he recruits Moash, Man of No Loyalty to Anything.
AlerieCorbray @104. You are mistaken. As to the other 5 people in the room with Gavilar, OB only explicitly reveals Amaram. SA fans have theorized King T and Queen Aesudan were in that meeting. There is circumstantial evidence for both. However, it is still only conjecture.
FWIIW, I believe I am the first, or at least one of the first on the Tor re-reads, to propose Aesudan was in the meeting with Gavilar. Not to brag or anything :)
Carl @106. Graves was a member of the Diagram. We have no evidence he was a member of the Sons of Honor.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
The fact that Gavilar was given the visions is, IMO, all that was meant by being on the “bondsmith path.” Dalinar saw them long before he spoke the first Ideal and began the actual bonding; Gavilar had also been given the visions, but there’s no evidence he had spoken even the first Ideal, much less any others. One massive argument against any sort of bonding is that he didn’t heal, even a little bit, when he fell from the balcony. If he’d been in the process of bonding the Stormfather, or any other spren, he should have shown some ability to heal, shouldn’t he?
@@@@@ 108 Wetlandernw
Aw, that’s true. Do we know when Dalinar spoke the first ideal though? I don’t remember it happening in the books.
#107. AndrewHB: Yes, Aesudan being there is an assumption. We only meet the Queen briefly, as Elhokar’s newly forged forces meet with her Queen’s Guard Radiants, in Oathbringer, starting on page 811 Chapter 84. She talks about meeting with his father and then continuing his work after he died. How much more she had accomplished by figuring out how to bond with the strange spren. How she was able to bond with the ancient spren, as her eyes began to glow red.
As far as assumptions, King Taravangian being there is a little weaker. In Words of Radiance, on the last page of Interlude 14, page 917, we are told by King T that King Gavilar told him about the visions and the gathering storm. Later that evening he was assassinated. In King T’s recollection, we hear “Unite them.” He also knows that the Almighty is dead. He sees each step he takes as furthering Gavilar’s past instructions to him.
Note that I didn’t mean to infer that I was first to make these assumptions. I was merely making a summary of points that were learned in the reread. Congrats on any first that you achieved.
#109. Elle: You will find Dalinar’s first two oaths in Words of Radiance, chapter 89. The first is the bottom of page 1071, and the second is on the top of page 1072.
AlerieCorbray @110 – There’s a little more substance for Taravangian’s presence than that. In WoR Interlude 14, Taravangian specifically states that Gavilar had confided those visions to him on the night he was assassinated. That’s not proof he was in this meeting, but he clearly was in a confidential meeting with Gavilar sometime that night. This one seems a reasonable probability, and has more textual support than Aesudan’s presence. After all, she lived in the same palace with Gavilar; he could have spoken with her about it at any time – or she could have overheard him, if she was given to spying. We don’t know when she learned of his plans. I still think it’s likely, given her statements in Chapter 84, of course. Although… she knew some things that Taravangian hasn’t talked about (the trapped spren), so it’s possible that they were not in the same conversation.
#112. Wetlandernw: Thanks for replying. King Taravangian may or may not seen the visions. Maybe he gained a strong impression from reading the account of Dalinar’s experience. He has taken the caution very much to heart. It may be the reason behind his trip to the Nightwatcher and the boom request. He may not have been at that meeting, but he had every reason to be there.
As far as Aesudan, she was very ambitious and willing to do anything to get ahead. We don’t know her back story, whether she was an engineer or scientist, prior to marrying the crown Prince. As you said, she might have been invited to other meetings or spied out secret gatherings. Remember, Gavilar gave away two samples, I doubt that he had more handy. She has just spent six years, mostly without supervision. I am envisioning that she had a secret voice in her ear, telling her what to do. How else would she have known what to do, including acquiring all the unmade helpers.
If Aesudan was at the meeting that doesn’t mean she can’t have known about Gavilar’s plans before that.
AndrewHB, you’re right, I was remembering Graves’ background wrong.
@@@@@ 103, 108, 111
Oh well, I guess I interpreted that WoB wrongly then.
I’m actually quite relieved that Gavilar was not a ‘real’ Bondsmith, especially considering his actions in this prologue, combined with what we know about the Sons of Honor. It seems that while Gavilar talked a lot about the codes and honor, Dalinar was the only brother who actually followed through. :)
AlerieCorbray @113 – “King Taravangian may or may not seen the visions. Maybe he gained a strong impression from reading the account of Dalinar’s experience. He has taken the caution very much to heart.” You misunderstand me. Taravangian has not seen the visions. He expressly says that Gavilar told him about the visions, the night he was assassinated. That, specifically, is why he went to the Nightwatcher – he knew what Gavilar had told him of the visions, and then Gavilar was killed. Taravangian took it upon himself to seek out a way to save mankind from what Gavilar had seen coming. My point regarding the meeting was that, if it was this meeting where Gavilar was telling people about the visions, then one of the guests was Taravangian. If that’s not what this meeting was about, then Taravangian met with Gavilar at a different time that evening.
#117. Wetlandernw:. Thanks for the correction. Got it.
Since it was discussed earlier, I thought I’d throw in that Sadeas had to be one of the people in the meeting with Gavilar. We know they met before the celebration because Gavilar thought there would be trouble/an assassination attempt (which was why Sadeas pretended to be Gavilar running away to safety).
RE: Gavilar feeling watched
This comment seemed so similar to Elhokar that I assumed it was a cryptic he was sensing. What I’m also wondering is whether this was the same one that followed Elhokar and whether it is also the same one Hoid finds in the epilogue.
RE: Gavilar’s black sphere (sort of)
All the discussion above about the perfect sphere that Gavilar had got me to thinking…could the fabrial/spheres at the heart of Urithru be the emptied prisons of the Unmade? Urithru was certainly the most obvious place to keep them imprisoned. And, if the spheres there were made to imprison, it could explain why they wouldn’t hold stormlight.
@120, Sanderson has confirmed that Gavilar was a proto-Bondsmith, so while Cryptics might have been watching him it could certainly have been the Stormfather he was sensing. For that matter, Cultivation was certainly aware of the situation and interfering by this time, but we probably won’t learn her long-term plans for at least 15 real-world years. (I expect that to happen near the end of the 10-book series, and Sanderson currently plans two write two trilogies in between books 5 and 6.)
First sorry for being late to the thread, second on the idea of there being a fourth shard. I just want to point out that when Odium flees from Dalinar after he recreates the perpendicularity of Honor hec cries out, “WE killled you!” WE. Plural.I don’t know what your interpretation of that line is but my interpretation is that Odium had help killing Honor.
@123, BenW, “I don’t know what your interpretation of that line is but my interpretation is that Odium had help killing Honor.” That was my initial reading, too. Others here interpreted the other pronoun, “you”, differently. They think that Odium was perceiving Dalinar’s Ascension as restoring Adonalsium. That makes “We” the 16 (or 17 if you count Hoid, or 18 if you count The Correspondent) conspirators who shattered Adonalsium.
Bah this is my first time. I guess I’ll do it solo and I’ll see you next time maybe in November.
@wolfkin: I kind of envy you reading it for the first time, actually. Have fun.
I hope it’s okay to post in these threads two years later. I’m doing another reread which always triggers new thoughts and questions.
In this section, the description of the black sphere stood out to me:
It sounds a lot like ultraviolet light. So is void light UV light? And does it have the same properties and effects (both harmful and beneficial) on Roshar as it has on Earth? I’ll be interested to watch out for its effects going forward.
Why did the Five never explain why they had Gavilar assassinated?
@Lemonite: to whom? To the Alethi?
@128 – Maybe they considered it a thing not told to outsiders. Or maybe they knew the Alethi would not believe that he was trying to return their gods. Or that they would even care about that even if they believed.
You guys have excellent discussions but it’s weird as alpha readers you talk as if you haven’t read the books in years and don’t know as much as a typical 27th harder haha.. Do you intentionally dumb it down for the casual reader..? Talking about the cracks and “comet like spren” you mean the reacher spren? For willshapers? I can’t tell if you know that and are just eventually being vague haha.. That’s revealed in OB not RoW so it isn’t something to hide. There’s a lot of other things you have to look up or forgot about that makes it not seem like usual theory discussions but first time readers still piecing things together and forgetting earlier books, not knowing who the heralds are etc
Not trying to slight you, you still have amazing analysis and discussion especially with the epigraphs.
taln didn’t break.. That’s been known from WoB for like a decade now hahaha. Come on guys. It was either Chana breaking after Shallan killed her or just the everstorm