Lyn: Welcome back, faithful rereaders, and if you’re joining us now for the first time, you chose one storming heck of a chapter to do it on! This is one of the most cinematic and coolest scenes in the book (save of course for the ends of Parts three and five), and Alice and I are excited to dive in and start theorizing!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. This week’s post contains no Cosmere spoilers, so no worries there. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan
WHERE: Urithiru marketplace, depths
WHEN: 1174.1.5.2 (Two days after Chapter 28, four days after Shallan’s last appearance in Chapter 27)
The chapters begin with Shallan, as Veil, waiting for a copy-cat murder in the marketplace. When it occurs, she chases a man dressed all in black into the depths of Urithiru, all the way to a dark hole. She sends Pattern off to fetch reinforcements (namely, Adolin) and he arrives shortly thereafter with all of Bridge 4 in tow. They make their way down into the hole where they discover the remnants of a library full of decayed books—and the copy-cat killer, an ancient spren named Re-Shephir, or the Midnight Mother. Bridge 4 and Adolin attack the monstrous spren, which takes the form of black, tar-like copies of people. When their attacks fail, Shallan summons an army of illusions and drives the Midnight Mother back. She approaches the creature and places her hand on it, initiating a telepathic bond which she uses to drive the Unmade away.
Threshold of the storm
Title: No Backing Down; Mother of Lies
“Highmarshal Halad always said that to beat someone, you must first know them. It’s become one of the rules we follow in warfare.”
“And … what did he say about retreat?”
“ ‘Plan every battle as if you will inevitably retreat, but fight every battle like there is no backing down.’ “
Well, that’s the plan, anyway… and it comes into play for the second of these chapters, too. In fact, this phrase was suggested as the title for each of these chapters, because… well, I don’t have to explain that!
The second title isn’t a direct quote; it’s more of an inference, and was suggested as applying to both the Midnight Mother and to Shallan. Both are, indeed, supremely capable of crafting believable lies to convince others, aren’t they?
Heralds
Chapter 29 shows Shalash x2 (the essence Blood, attributes Creative and Honest, patron of Lightweavers; and Paliah x2 (the essence Pulp, the attributes Learned and Giving, patron of the Order of Truthwatchers). Chapter 30 is all Shalash.
A: I think it’s safe to say that we see Shalash and Paliah on Chapter 29 because we see their Knights Radiant in action. We’ll talk more about that below, I promise. There may also be some other reasons: the Illusions created by both the Midnight Mother and Shallan are forms of Lightweaving, the archives they found (however decayed) fit with Paliah’s scholarly bent, and in a way both Renarin and Shallan are interested in scholarship. We could probably find more, but that’s enough to be going on with.
Chapter 30 is all about illusions, and Shallan as a Knight Radiant of the Order of Lightweavers takes center stage.
Icon
Both character icons, Pattern, show that these are Shallan POV chapters.
Epigraph
So sit back. Read, or listen, to someone who has passed between realms. Listen to the words of a fool.
—From Oathbringer, preface
A: At the moment, I’m drawing a complete blank on how these two epigraphs fit with the chapters, so I’m just going to say that they don’t always have to. Sometimes, it’s just the next few sentences in the preface, and they fit that context and not this one. Okay?
L: Weeelllllll, there could be something to the “passing between realms” bit? Maybe it ties into the telepathic bond between Re-Shephir and Shallan.
A: Sounds good to me! Let’s go with that.
Stories & Songs
“To the right. The shadows are off. The wrong pattern.”
A: There is so much to unpack about this particular Unmade in these two chapters! We clearly can’t quote everything, or even thoroughly address everything. Still, let’s give it a try.
Buy the Book
Oathbringer
L: Most of it will be down in the Spren section, but this is just a fascinating little tidbit on its own. Does Pattern mean that the Midnight Mother is masquerading as a shadow here, and that’s why it’s wrong? Or is there more to it? Is there some sort of connection to the seven nine shadows that Dalinar saw around Odium’s Champion?!
She’d begun to imagine an infinite spiral, like with old Dilid, one of the ten fools. He ran up a hillside toward the Tranquiline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet—running for eternity, and never making progress.
L: This is cool, I think this is the first time we’ve heard this legend. Have the Ten Fools been mentioned before?
A: They have. As near as I can tell, we get a name and a tidbit about one of them in each book, so far. In TWoK, Kaladin mentions “Cabine, who acted like a child though he was adult.” In WoR, again from Kaladin feeling like one of the ten fools, “Eshu, who spoke of things he did not understand in front of those who did.” I have to wonder if that’s going to continue throughout the series, or if we’ll learn more about the concept before then. Given Sanderson’s propensity for “one per book” stuff, I expect the former.
The pillar in the exact center of the room.
It was set with thousands upon thousands of cut gemstones, most larger than Shallan’s fist. Together, they were a treasure worth more than most kingdoms.
L: WHAT IIIIIIIS IT?! I MUST KNOW ITS FUNCTION.
A: I’ve heard so many theories, but the most common are probably the theories that it’s a fabrial that runs all the workings of Urithiru, or alternatively, that it’s the power source for the fabrial that is Urithiru. (I’m not entirely sure those aren’t the same thing, stated different ways, since we know so little.) The second burning question is how on Roshar they’re supposed to get enough Stormlight down here in the bowels of the tower to get the thing powered up. I suspect it requires a Bondsmith bonded to the Sibling—but that’s just a theory too.
L: Personally I like the power source theory, but I just want to KNOW.
Bruised & Broken
That’s you, a part of her cried as the adopted the persona. That’s the real you. Isn’t it? Why do you have to paint that face over another?
L: You know, this is a really interesting philosophical question. We all know that our personalities shift and change as we experience life. So what is our “real us?” Do we have fundamental personality aspects that remain the same as we age, or can even those be changed by dramatic life events? Is Shallan really Shallan… or is she changing?
A: Philosophically, it’s a profound question, because we are all changing all the time. (See last week, with Dalinar’s “sometimes a hypocrite is just a man who is in the process of changing.) Who is “the real you” at any given time? Viscerally, however, this kind of terrified me; it felt like Shallan was losing track of her personas, layering them over one another with very little ability to discern what was reality and what was illusion. Not so much a matter of hypocrisy or changing perspective, but layering lies over other lies because she was afraid of the truth. We know now that this is going to get worse before it gets better, but at this point it was scary to see her like this.
Would it really have been so bad to let Adolin know about Veil?
A part of her panicked at the idea, so she let go of it quickly.
L: Poor Shallan. She must be so used to keeping secrets from everyone around her that the very idea of being honest is terrifying.
Squires & Sidekicks
Bridge Four is BACK, baby!
Indeed, she’d mistaken one of Dalinar’s scouts—the short woman with long hair—for another bridgeman, though her uniform was different.
A: Hi, Lyn! ::waves::
L: When we get to the chapter in Part 2 that features her more prominently, I’ll talk in depth about the actual real-life stuff behind this tuckerization, I promise. But for now it’s worthwhile to note that Lyn’s apparently been just hanging out with Bridge Four all the time, probably in hopes that she’ll get to work with them eventually. Or because she just really likes hanging out with them.
“Kid,” Teft said, “you’re the expert on what’s weird. We’ll trust your word.”
Shallan looked with concern towards Renarin at the insult. He just grinned, as one of the other bridgemen slapped him on the back—Plate notwithstanding—while Lopen and Rock started arguing over who was truly the weirdest among them.
L: Awwwwww he’s one of the guys. This makes my heart happy.
A: I adored this moment. We’re all weird in our own ways, and it’s so good to be part of a group where your weirdness is valued.
“So,” one of the men said, a handsome, muscled fellow with arms that seemed too long for his body.
L: Too-long arms? Descendant of a world-hopper from Scadrial, I wonder?
A: I never thought of the possibility that he could be a world-hopper, but it would fit. He has “a faint accent” that is never identified, and he swears “By the Brightcaller’s rays” which we never see anywhere else. Whether that’s evidence of being from a different nation & religion on Roshar, or being a world-hopper… I don’t know. It would be cool if he were a world-hopper.
Dandos the Oilsworn
L: I was curious about this little name-drop (mainly because “Oilsworn” is such a cool freakin’ title), so I went looking in the previous books. He’s mentioned exactly once in each.
A: I’ll mention him again below. Will that be useful?
Places & Peoples
The perpetrator—one of Ruthar’s soldiers—had been hanged the next day in the market’s central square.
L: I quoted this one because it’s the first (I think?) instance we’ve seen of such swift and harsh justice being enacted. Do the Alethi not have courts of law as we know them, or did this particular case just have so many witnesses that there was no question of guilt? Does murder always result in execution? I’m just so interested in the logistics of crime and punishment in fantasy novels. (There’s also the possibility that since they’re in the middle of a war, Dalinar has instituted some sort of “Law during War,” which I could have sworn there was a specific word/phrase for, but my google-fu is failing me.)
A: It could be a little like the “Emergency Powers Act” during WWII, in England, maybe. Alternatively, it could just be the sort of rules that always hold during a campaign for those who are in the military encampment. We haven’t seen much of Alethi civil life; most of our time has been spent in the warcamps—first at the Shattered Plains, and now at Urithiru. Granted that there are a lot of civilians around, both places are first and foremost military installations.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Most men who have made a pass at me end up missing a finger or two, Red.”
“I’d still have plenty left to satisfy you, I promise.”
L: My reaction.
“Said that if I didn’t come, you’d probably—and I quote—’go do something stupid without letting me watch.’”
Pattern hummed. “Stupidity. Very interesting.”
A: This was one of my favorite laugh-out-loud moments in the whole book.
“A broken face, a twisted shape…”
“Sounds like that girl you’ve been seeing, Skar,” one of the bridgemen noted.
L: Storms, I missed these guys.
“Adolin…” Shallan said. “These are artifacts from another time. Valuable and precious.”
“I won’t break them too much,” he promised.
L: Only a little. A little breaking. He promises.
Weighty Words
Adolin and Renarin fought at the very front, hacking with Blades, leaving dark figures to hiss and gush smoke in pieces. … They struck true now and then, wounding a bridgeman, who would pull back into the center of the formation to be hastily bandaged by Lyn or Lopen. Renarin fell into the center and started to glow with Stormlight, healing those who were hurt.
A: I know Renarin has a long way to go yet, but I loved him in these scenes. Part of him is totally freaked out by what he knows to be (and is the first to identify as)
“One of the Unmade. Re-Shephir … the Midnight Mother.”
And yet, he stands against her. He takes his place, first at Adolin’s side, then healing the others, then again protecting Adolin’s back as they form a pathway to the center for Shallan to do her thing. My personal view of Renarin has always been that he’s courageous despite his physical disabilities; many times, though, he chooses not to do things that he knows would cause Adolin or Dalinar to step in to protect him. Now that he has a spren/blade, and is using (ordinary) Shardplate, he’s less vulnerable physically and so he’s able to do the things he couldn’t do before.
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
I’m not saying this very well, but I love the way he continues to fight despite his terror; courage isn’t in not being afraid, but in continuing to fight even though you are afraid. (I’m pretty sure someone has said that better…)
L: This one, perhaps? “I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” –Nelson Mandela
A: Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear—not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say he is brave; it is merely a loose misapplication of the word. –Mark Twain
L: I rather like the simplicity of this one by Twain: “Courage is not the absence of fear; it is acting in spite of it.”
A: Courage is being scared to death… and saddling up anyway. –John Wayne
L: So many cool quotes about this subject!
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“What is it?” Renarin whispered. “Glys is frightened, and won’t speak.”
L: Sorry, Renarin, but I am suspicious of that spren of yours. Is Glys frightened because he knows exactly what they’re dealing with, having insider information?
A: Well, if Glys does know anything about her, I don’t blame him for being scared!
The things bled vapor when struck, a darkness that hissed from them and dissipated into the air.
Like smoke, Shallan thought.
L: So, we know that there are nine Unmade. If there were ten, I would wonder if maybe each of them corresponded to a Soulcasting essence… but the lack of a tenth seems to undermine this theory. Thoughts, Alice?
A: This particular conundrum gives me headaches. There are so many parallels between Surgebinding and Voidbinding, except that Honor (and Surgebinding) center around ten, while Odium (and Voidbinding) center on nine, and … it always goes pear-shaped when I try to wrap my head around it!
That said, I would cautiously venture that there could well be a correspondence, but try as I might, I can’t sort it out. You could associate Re-Shephir with smoke, Chemoarish with talus (stone/dust), Ashertmarn with sinew, or possibly blood, Yelig-nar with crystal (paralleling lucentia, maybe?), or maybe Ba-Ado-Mishram, who supplies voidlight and connection would fit lucentia better… and then I just start going in circles. I don’t really understand the essences, but mostly we just don’t know enough about the rest of the Unmade or Voidbringing.
“There’s something down there,” Renarin whispered, leaning out over the pit. “Something… ancient. You’ve felt it, haven’t you?”… “Your father doesn’t seem to be able to feel it,” Shallan said. “Why can we?”
L: Interesting that both Shallan and Renarin sensed this, but Dalinar doesn’t seem to.
A: I’ve wondered about that too. Is it because they’re closer to Cultivation (via their spren)? Is it because they both have the Surge of Illumination as part of their skillset, and the Midnight Mother also uses that Surge? (I’m going on the assumption that the Surges are the same for both Surgebinding and Voidbinding, and that they’re just used a little differently and accessed by different forms of Investiture.) Are they just more empathetic individuals than crusty old Dalinar?
L: Makes me wonder if Kal would, if he were around. Or if Malata does. Related to this conversation, there’s this quote:
There didn’t seem to be a duplicate for her.
Why not? Can the Mother not imitate a Lightweaver, or is it maybe confused by Shallan and all her various personas and masks she wears?
A: Oh, I like the idea that Re-Shephir might be confused by Shallan’s layers of illusion and personalities! It would be the one really cool thing about Shallan’s special style of crazy at this juncture.
“I feel like I understand her, a connection I cannot explain. That can’t be a good thing, right? Can we even trust what I think?”
L: This reminds me a little of the connection between Harry and Voldemort in Harry Potter.
A: Bingo!
L: A connection opened one way can influence the other way as well. Granted, this is a little deeper—Shallan seems to be worried that the Midnight Mother has been subconsciously changing the very fabric of her thoughts. Sanderson goes deeper into this connection in the beginning of chapter 30:
Shallan was laid open to this thing. Laid bare, her skin split, her soul gaping wide. It could get in.
It was also open to her.
This telepathy is fascinating to me, because we haven’t really seen any other telepathy in the books. Perhaps the Midnight Mother can utilize telepathy in her attempts to understand and better emulate people? Or is this another aspect of whatever theoretical connection is between them based on their powers?
They know how to face men like him, Shallan thought, still holding her Shardblade in one hand. Then why do they fear me?
L: Excellent question, and one which is answered in the next chapter. Another interesting thing: on the wheel of Heralds, Nale (essence of vapor) is opposite Shalash (patron of Lightweavers). Is it possible that Re-Shephir, representing Vapor, is especially weak to Lightweavers? (I took a look at the Double Eye artwork too, but while Lightweavers and Skybreakers are on opposite sides, they’re not exact opposites…)
A: Well, I already wound myself around the axle on that question. I’m not going to try again!
The spren tugged and prodded at Shallan’s bond with Pattern, seeking to rip it free and insert herself instead.
L: Well, that’s a horrifying thought. Bonding with an UNMADE?
A: Yeah, that was unnerving. Even the thought that it might be possible was totally creepy in the moment, but now that I think about it… I hadn’t put it together this way before, but are all the “embracing the Thrill” things we’ve seen sort of a matter of bonding with an Unmade? I don’t think it would be quite the same, since the Thrill seems to fill many people at the same time, but it’s some kind of a bond. Beyond that, though, there’s what we see later of Yelig-Nar. Was this suggestion, here, supposed to foreshadow Yelig-Nar consuming first Queen Aesudan and later Amaram, when each tried to bond and control it? And failed, and died? Because if that’s what “bonding an Unmade” looks like, it’s not a great idea.
It had been trapped. The event had happened recently in the spren’s reckoning, though Shallan had the impression that in fact centuries upon centuries had passed.
Re-Shephir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonment had been unexpected, presumed impossible.
L: Setting up the pieces for the revelation that the Unmade can be trapped in perfect gemstones, here.
And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.
L: Ah hah. So now we know why it’s so scared of her—but we’re still left wondering how they can form this telepathic bond!
A: I think you must be right about Connection being involved, though I still have no clue how it works. Unless it’s that thing I mentioned about using the same Surge… for which I have zero evidence, so it could be coincidence. Except this is Sanderson, so there is no such thing as coincidence. Is there some sort of cognitive or spiritual connection (or Connection) between people/beings who use the same Surge?
Amazing Artwork
Gorgeous, intricate pictures of the Heralds—made of thousands of tiles—adorned the ceiling, each in a circular panel.
The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. Who would have thought to find pagan symbols in the home of the Knights Radiant?
Other murals depicted shapes that reminded her of Pattern, windspren … ten kinds of spren. One for each order?
A: We don’t actually get to see this artwork—more’s the pity—but it sound amazing to me. It would be interesting to ask how closely these pictures of the Heralds fit with the later paintings we see in the endpapers.
L: Are we sure that the endpapers aren’t what’s described here?
A: Well, I don’t think they are. These have been here since before Urithiru was abandoned, and I had the impression that the endpaper portraits were more contemporary idealizations. I could just be confused by knowing that the same artist (Dan dos Santos) who painted two of them is tuckerized as Dandos the Oilsworn, and I’m therefore assuming that he also would be credited with the Ishar and Shalash paintings in-world. I’d actually love to be wrong on this, because I think it would be awfully scrumptious to know we were seeing this artwork.
More curious, though, are the three mentioned next. Shallan recognizes the “Almighty” depiction, which seems to reflect Honor’s connection to the Stormfather. I think we all recognize Cultivation in the tree-woman, and it seems to hint at her connection to the Nightwatcher. Is the third also a Shard? (Odium?) Or is it Adonalsium? Or… the Sibling, and not a Shard at all?
L: I definitely got the impression that it was the third Sibling.
A: Really? How cool! For some reason I had assumed they were Shards (I suppose because Shallan called one “Almighty”) and that third one was really messing me up. But then, I’ll claim that I was thinking about this before we knew about the Sibling, okay?
If these were originally intended as depictions of the three great spren, that would definitely make the “solitary figure hovering above the ground” the Sibling. Would this fit with the “other murals” of the rest of the spren? Except that Shallan thinks there are “ten kinds of spren” depicted. Would she have just assumed there were ten more without looking closely, or is there a mural for the Bondsmith spren? I’m so confused.
L: Hmm, yeah, this is odd. If the one she’s assuming to be the Almighty is actually the Stormfather, then there should only be nine other types of spren depicted… strange. Very strange.
A: I’m so confused.
Oh, also, I was highly amused that Shallan thought of the Cultivation and likely-Sibling pictures as “pagan symbols.”
Quality Quotations
If you could explain everything perfectly, then you’d never need art. That was the difference between a table and a beautiful woodcutting. You could explain the table: its purpose, its shape, its nature. The woodcutting you simply had to experience.
* * *
“Your imitation is pathetic,” Shallan whispered. “Here. Let me show you how it’s done.”
L: I love Shallan’s moment of badassery here.
“Plan every battle as if you will inevitably retreat, but fight every battle like there is no backing down.”
L: Well, that’s quite enough horror (and blabbing on my part) for now! Join us in the comments and weigh in with your own theories, and return at the same storm-time and same storm-channel next week when we finish up Part One with chapters 31 and 32, in which Kaladin rides the storm and someone unexpected returns…
[Edit: I’d just like to take a moment to link this amazing fanart of the scene in this week’s reread. Check it out, it’s beautiful!]
Alice is wrapped up in the Skyward gamma read, which is now her favorite of Sanderson’s YA works. Beyond that, she’s trying to keep up with her kids and hoping for some summer to happen before September… (The rest of the country is broiling, but the Pacific Northwest is freeeeeeezing. They say it’s going to warm up any day now.)
Lyndsey is beyond excited for the upcoming Yuri!!! On Ice movie, and had a field day “live-tweeting” the concert last weekend. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Random thought on the gemstone pillar that’s probably totally wrong: Sanderson has RAFO’d questions on infusing the beads in Shadesmar. So what if the pillar needs to be found in Shadesmar and infused from there for it to work?
I think the Sibling theory is more likely, though.
Heh. My first thought was, “Hey, maybe Dalinar could create a perpendicularity down there to infuse the pillar!” And then I realized that it’s a Bondsmith thing, and was probably always done by the Sibling’s Bondsmith. Which isn’t to say that Dalinar couldn’t do it, but Stormfather might refuse. Anyway, I want to see the Sibling wake up and bond Rushu. :)
For me, “weird” is among the highest praises I could give or hope to receive. So I lived the thought of Bridge Four men arguing over who’s weirdest, though it might have been even more fun to read the conversation.
Shallan defeating Re-Shephir never worked for me. The scene leading up to it is great, but ultimately Shallan’s plan is “put your hand on it and see what happens” and it works by luck. Our protagonists don’t have any reason to think that’s going to help more than hurt, and I don’t think we as readers have much reason to think it will either. It feels too much like when Harry Potter faces down Voldemort and hey, lucky you, your wands have cores from the same phoenix so you’re going to survive here. That moment in Harry Potter is always my prime example of what Sanderson doesn’t do. Using magic to resolve things is more satisfying if you already knew it could. Maybe eventually we’ll know why it worked, but I don’t feel like we do right now.
Shallan defeating Re-Shephir seems to break Sanderson’s First Law, in my opinion. I guess the same could be said of Vin defeating the Lord Ruler – we didn’t know until later the hemalurgic aspects of their battle.
@@.-@ havokinetic
I feel like it is like Vin defeating the Lord Ruler. We will find out later more the function of what Shallan knew to do instinctively as she touched and got to know Re-shephir. At least that is my theory.
For the ten kinds of spren: she says one reminds her of pattern and one is a wind spren, not an honor spren. Maybe it’s the ten armors instead of the nine blades.
The mystery third painting sounds a lot like the end pages painting included in this article of what people believe to be Ishar. He’s not hovering exactly, but he is elevated above others arms out with a big blue disc above him. As the Herald who was involved with the creation of the Knights Radiant it makes sense for the KR to have a mural of him in their headquarters.
I like Alice’s theory that the Sibling Bondsmith is in charge of maintaining Urithiru. I keep toying with the idea that the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru. But that got me thinking. The Stormfather is the spren of the highstorm and existed before Honor. But there’s no clue what the Nightwatcher is the spren of, or the Sibling for that matter. Any ideas?
Is there some sort of connection to the seven shadows Dalinar saw around Odium’s champion?
Nine shadows, you mean.
I’m pretty sure the Shalash endpaper is supposed to be the painting that Pom rips up.
Is the Mother of Lies inspired by the Father of Lies in WoT?
The fool part in the Oathbringer quote fits the theme of lies/illusions fooling people.
If the strata are stormlight conductors they might be bringing the power needed by the device. Is there some kind of Stormlight collector somewhere in the mountains (like a solar panel on the roof)?
If there are nine kinds of Blades, is that a connection to Odium?
I thought Red’s comeback to Veil was hilarious. And so unexpected. Whereas the bridgeman’s quip to Skar was not as surprising. Since WoR, Bridge 4 has been teasing each other – a good nature teasing that friends will sometimes do. It is interesting that Shallan’s bodyguard (for lack of a better term) are starting to become more human (as opposed to how they acted when she first found them in the Frostlands.
I think it is a good sign of Shallan growing and trusting that she knew she needed help when she asked Pattern to get Adolin.
Who is the Herald that looks like Rose McGowan? The one holding the keys. I know the others are Ishar, Jzrien, and Shalash. I cannot remember.
I thought the third mural was Odium. I always thought the other two were Honor and Cultivation. If those were the other two, then I could see Odium as the 3rd. If the first two were the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, than I agree the third would be the Sibling.
I got the impression that the four pictures of the Heralds in OB (and which Alice and Lyndsey copied in this post) where depictions of the Heralds as they actually appeared. Not as they were depicted in Vorin culture. However, I could be wrong.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
Austin @8 – My theory is that prior to the arrival of the Shards, Stormfather was the spren of storms; Nightwatcher was the spren of life, growing things, plants, or something like that; and the Sibling was the spren of either the ground in general, or stone specifically, or possibly the mountains. Those might not be quite the right characterizations, but I’m almost sure it’s something like that.
Andrew @11 – the fourth Herald is Vedel.
11. That’s Vedel, patron of the Edgedancers. Note the bright green lifespren swirling around. (Also someone swore by “Vedel’s golden keys” or something similar in WoR, as I recall)
@9, right you are. I’ll go fix that.
Blightsong
Who drew [the Oathbringer endpapers]? Are they in-world art?
Brandon Sanderson
These are in world paintings done by the Oilsworn, one of the people Shallan studied when practicing her art. The actual paintings were done by the Oilsworn’s real-world counterpart, Dan Dos Santos, who did the cover of Warbreaker.
There are two more pieces in the back, done by someone else, which are also in-world art pieces. They’re all part of a larger theme, and are equally gorgeous.
Phantine
I assume these are paintings of heralds, then?
Brandon Sanderson
These two [in the front of the book] are Ishar and Ash. The back two are Jezrien and Vedel.
ConvolutedBoy
Ash is so much more…shiny than I expected, but I guess that’s Lightweaving for you. I love the space background too.
Brandon Sanderson
Remember, these are in-world artifacts. So this is how someone painted her from their imagination, based on lore. These are Rosharan versions of the paintings of the prophets along the top of the Sistine Chapel.
I think that’s what the connection is about. The two of them are alike. RS’s shadow-babies and Shallan’s illusions are alike. I think that Shallan’s trauma is, effectively, Identical (?) to RS…
Also, I have the rough idea (I don’t call it a Theory, I don’t have anything to support it) that perhaps the Unmade were 10 once, and what happened to #10 was what Unmade them. We also still have Urithiru and Cusieth to sort away – if the tile refers to the Sibling, then that’d would probably point towards Cusieth?
Regarding identity, my yiayia (grandmother) is suffering badly from Alzheimer’s. Some days she is as she was, but on others she is like a totally different, and very hostile and mean, person. One day she may be kind but competitive and eager to see and speak with her family, but on the next she is cruel and vicious and deliberately says the most hurtful things. Her disease does not change the real her, rather it corrupts its expression.
My brother for a time was severely afflicted by a manic/depressive cycle. He would go from being eager and enthusiastic (though flighty and inconsistent) to being angry, touchy, unmotivated, and generally morose. Neither was the real him, rather each was a twisted version of one part of him. He has since gotten much better and can now express his real self more fully.
What causes one’s real self is a difficult question. I suspect that the soul begins with some underlying attributes unique to one’s self already, and that experiences, lessons, and examples throughout early life shape that soul into an ever-more-complex iteration of its initial state. External forces like disease, chemical adjustment, and other things can interfere with the ability of the self to act truly, but do not in themselves change the true person. That said, the soul suffers trauma just as much as the mind or body do, and just as the mind and body can heal so too can the soul.
In Shallan’s case, since her magic seems to affect the soul in a unique way, I have to wonder if she is actually doing harm to her true self by splintering her soul into Radiant and Veil (I know splintering has specific meanings in the Cosmere, but maybe some of those actually apply in this case too). Perhaps as a Lightweaver she can heal the souls of others (see what she did for the deserters), or attack spiritual entities directly in a way that other surgebinders cannot (making her order uniquely dangerous to such entities).
I love the drama of these chapters. When I finish ch 30 I always expect the interludes to come next, but then there’s still one more set of revelations first.
I have a very loose theory that one of the main radiants will eventually have to get rid of (or turn? Could it happen?) one of the Unmade. Dalinar obviously knows how to deal with the Thrill (as he does in part 5) and Shallan will have to go against RS again once she knows herself better. And so on…
RE: Court system in use.
Remember that the Alethkar is a feudal kingdom. I think it more closely parallels medieval England, where you had a king and a number of powerful barons who were loosely “sworn” to his service. In that system of government, the barons were the judges and the juries. Made justice very fast, if not consistent.
Given the discourse on real- world mental illness surrounding Shallan and Kaladin, I know this probably isn’t the right thing to say, but I wish someone would reach into the book and smack Shallan a few times upside the head.
GET *smack* YOUR *smack* FREAKING *smack* HEAD *smack* TOGETHER.
So much frustration.
I know this might not align with what the Stormfather said about the Sibling, but if what we have are uber-spren aligned with Shards (the Stormfather with Honor and Nightwatcher with Cultivation), then the Sibling would correspond to Odium somehow. Or maybe that’s one of Brandon’s red herrings to mislead us? I’m usually wrong about all my theorizing anyway.
Another idea just occurred to me: What if the “blue disc” in the image represents the oceans? and the Sibling is sleeping somewhere out there, maybe across the Ocean of Origins? That’s another thing I keep thinking – that someone will sail east for some reason and find … something important.
These are 2 of my favorite chapters in the book since we get so much action from Shallan. I also think it is worth noting that as of here, Shallan is definitely still thinking of Veil as part of herself (she hasn’t gone all the way down the rabbit hole yet) since she sends forth an illusion of Veil when creating all the many versions of Shallan. I also found Adolin’s quote to Shallan, “At your word, Radiant” to be somewhat ironic considering the fact that Adolin spends most of his time with Shallan practicing swordplay, which means she is likely in the Radiant persona since holding Pattern here in his blade form brought “the pain of an Ideal sworn, but not yet overcome”.
Do we know if all Lightweaver truths are painful? I know there hve been allusions to being able to be open to a spren bond rather than broken, but how would this work with truths? I was thinking specifically about Tien; I believe we know he was in the process of bonding a Lightweaver spren, but from what we see through Kaladin’s eyes he did not have the same kind of horrors in his life that Shallan had. (I am assuming that the kind of mother who would murder her child for surgebinding is not the beacon of love and happiness that Shallan makes her out to be in her mind.) Perhaps truths can be more mundane and I only think they have to be horrors because of Shallan’s personal horrific past. Or is that why we see young children bonding Lightweaver spren? To a young child, all emotions would feel intense, and small secrets would feel like huge truths.
As for the shadows being wrong … maybe it relates to the Cognitive Realm, where shadows point the wrong direction? Didn’t someone (Jasnah?) see shadows pointing the wrong way when she was seeing into Shadesmar?
Lyn: law during war is “Martial Law.”
These two chapters are a cinematographer’s dream come true if this series is going to the small screen. I remember when I first read it, I was actually scared! That’s how good it was… still is, actually.
As for interpersonal relationship, these two chapters show how much our characters have grown. First, Shallan and Pattern’s bond had become truly strong. And I love it that Pattern likes Adolin. Pattern’s dry wit seems to be growing on Adolin too.
We also saw how close Adolin and Renarin are. That both of them are actually cut from the same cloth. The coordinated attack they made against the Unmade showed that they do train together though it was off stage (or off book).
And I also like it that Bridge 4 also trust Adolin to lead them into battle.
Just my thoughts. And again … *swoons at seeing Adolin*
Finally caught up! And yet…now I have nothing to say. :) The art intrigues me, but I don’t really have any particular clues as to what it represents. I’m leaning towards Honor/Cultivation, but it’s interesting that the third figure is much more anthropomorphic. Is it really another Shard, or perhaps just the Herald founder of the Radiants?
I agree with @@@@@7 Karsomir and @@@@@26Lisamarie that the third figure being Ishar. The blue disc.. Outstretched arms.. It sounds so much like the depiction of Ishar in the endpapers. Has anybody cared to ask Brandon?
@23 Evelina
We do see in the epigraphs mention of an individual who was incapable of the level of introspection required of the lightweavers to progress in the order. So to me the truths would become more personal and harder for each subsequent level. As to Tien, I feel he had just started to attract a spren, so had not sworn any truths yet.
@24 Carl
Jasnah did see her shadow point the wrong direction when she first met Ivory in the palace prior to fully peering into the cognitive realm.
Just want to throw this out there: I think the whole “Connection” thing Shallan has going on with Re-Shephir is foreshadowing Dalinar’s Connection to the Thrill – i.e. he is the only one capable of dealing with/defeating the Thrill, as evidenced by his flashbacks and culminating in his EPIC battle at the end. There’s also the foreshadowing of the Unmade being able to bond with humans, and hints that the Unmade are not necessarily what we might think they are
Ultimately the Unmade are spren and subject to the rules Navani lays out regarding the capture of spren. Basically show them something they are attracted to. We saw it with Dalinar and Nergoul, we could have seen it with Shallan and Re-Shepir had she had a capture gem. So the question becomes what character matches up with what Unmade? One of 9 is captured, Nergoul. The Midnight Mother is hiding. Sja-Anat is defecting to the Radient side. That leaves 6. Maybe Heart of the Revel gets caught by Lyft because she’s so much into food? I don’t know about Yelig-Nar, Bo-Ado Misram, or Moelach, and I’m not sure what the Black Fisher even does. There’s one more but it escapes me at the moment. Anyway we’ve seen the key to neutralize Unmade in the narrative; they have to get to know those they fight. Oh, maybe Renarin is a good match for Moelach?
I wondered if the reason Dalinar couldn’t sense the Midnight Mother was because he was already in some way bonded to the Thrill? But since Shallan and Renarin haven’t had close contact with one of the Unmade before (have they?) they are open to her more? Not sure if that holds up all the way but…
@22 I liked your first theory about the Sibling being on the same scale as the Stormfather but with Odium instead of Honor
Someone, please enlighten me, what is the difference between cohesion and tension?
Evil Monkey @30 – There’s a valid theory that Ba-Ado-Mishram is still imprisoned from when Melishi captured her to end the False Desolation. That’s a whole lot of speculation wrapped up in one sentence!
telema @32 – If only we knew! Those are the two Surges we know least about, at this stage. Brandon once mentioned that he was thinking of Tension as the ability to control things like tensile strength – for example, to be able to make a piece of cloth completely stiff instead of supple. But that was a LONG time ago, and I don’t know how much his plans have altered since then. Cohesion is the one Surge we can’t have seen yet, since it’s used by Willshapers and Stonewards.
Yeah I wasn’t sure if Bo was free or not. Odium can provide Voidlight on his own without her, although it’s speculation at this point as to how much that may drain him. Unfortunately we know so little. But of course that begs the question, what else can Bo-Ado-Misram do besides provide Voidlight and lead armies? Odium can do these things without need of another entity and both Bo and Odium were presumably active during the Desolations. What other services does she provide?
Theoretically, she grants Connection, a function which now, for the first time, came through the Everstorm. Beyond that, we know almost nothing, and even that much is partly speculation.
Is there some WOB that says Tien was the one about to bond a spren? I have wondered if it wasn’t Kaladin’s dad
@34 wetlandrnw
If I recall correctly one surge is as you said making things go from soft to hard, so could cut someone with that cloth or use it as a shield. Regarding the other, he said it is making things soft like making the whole world clay. We do see a stoneward use the softening surge in one of dalinars flash backs in oath bringer. It’s when the group of soldiers got pushed to the edge of the cliff. The stoneward alters the cliff to be steps to come up while allowing the soldiers to retreat. Thing is I believe per WoB that the surge was misidentified by the stormfather. It shouldn’t be the one that dalinar shares with the stonewards. But I’m going off recollection so I will need to pull up the corresponding wob
@37 tommy
The theory regarding Tien is because the message from mraize says the radiant was in the army or at the battlefield. Given lirin was still back at hearthstone, and if we believe mraize, then lirin is out
separate post because I had a chance to hop on my computer. This is the WoB I was talking about
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e8853
Wasn’t the order that wasn’t represented among the unmade the Bondsmiths
Tommy @37 – Confirmed Tien:
Questioner
Was Syl starting to bond with Tien before he died?
Brandon Sanderson
No, good question. But Tien was starting to bond a different spren.
Questioner
I was suspecting that he was bonding a spren, but then Syl says, at one point, just as she was coming over *inaudible* so I was like, maybe!
Brandon Sanderson
Good question, but no, he was going in a different direction.
Questioner
Can you tell me…?
Brandon Sanderson
Lightweaver.
I don’t think simple telepathy was the connection between Shallan and the Night Mother. This seems more like taking over the person/thing being connected with, not just talking and reading thoughts. And the connection went both ways. If the Night Mother could have broken the bond to Pattern and bonded Shallan, does that mean she would have control over Shallan? Pattern doesn’t control her so couldn’t Shallan take control?
I still want to understand what “first we were made, then we were unmade” actually means. Could they be remade? Would that make them just spren?
@40 BenW
Yep, WoB below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8598
@42 goddessimho
That is an interesting question. Would the Night Mother function like Yelig-nar and Shallan still be in control as long as she was able to handle the bond, or would she be “killed” like when the fused take a body, and be possessed fully by the Night Mother?
@43
I don’t believe Midnight Mommy kills Shallan like the Fused do hosts. If they bonded it would look more like Yelly. Pattern would surely die, Re-Shepir replaces him in Shallan’s spiritweb, and she becomes Shallan Davar of Odium, imbued with a different set of surges.
@44 EvilMonkey
Makes you wonder what king of powers Shallan would end up getting from such a bond. Brandon has confirmed that a bond with a Seon would function similarly on Roshar as a spren bond would, just you would receive unique powers.
I believe if Re-Shepir bonded Shallan in the Radiant fashion, something like what Shallan did in the battle for Thaylen City would result. Images conjured from the ether made flesh, only with the ability to kill instead of just distract. If it follows the pattern of Odium and the Fused then that will be her only surge. Powerful, as in she becomes a walking Army. If it follows the KR pattern then she gets another surge as well. Makes me think we will see the actual results in a later novel. Another question that occurred to me as I write this is how would a combo like that be fueled? Stormlight, Voidlight or would Re-Shallan be able to use both? How would that alter an already fractured personality? And could Re-Shepir become a Shardblade? Would her Shardplate be midnight essence? What a cool and terrifying image, watching someone walk up with a Shardplate made up of solid blackness, holding an obsidian blade as tall as a man, followed by an army of indistinct figures bleeding smoke. Tell me Brandon couldn’t make a moment of awesome from that.
@46 EvilMonkey
Hmmm, based on just my opinion, with nothing to back it up, I think a few things. So I agree that Shallan could end up with something similar to what happened at the battle of Thayla (though personally I think as she advances to her final oath, she will be able to make the illusions fully solid) where she would create midnight essences but with greater intelligence or more focused will. I do wonder if through the bond she could make midnight essences that did completely mimic a person or thing instead of just a black tarred version. I feel it would be only this one “surge”, because she would not be in my mind a radiant anymore as she wouldn’t be bonded to a radiant spren. I feel Renarin is different insofar as I feel Glys is a radiant spren that has been corrupted so to me he still would be considered a radiant. Going on that thought processes, then Shallan would be fueled by voidlight, or given she is bonded to an Unmade, she might be fueled directly by Odium. I think being able to have physical representations present continually could result in her having radiant and veil “out” constantly. So instead of the conversations and their presence being in her mind (as per the battle of Thayla), they would actually be standing there talking back to her visible for all to see. They still wouldn’t be “real”, but the ability to lend physicality to them coupled with the bonding to the nightmother I could see making the personalities problem become far far worse. I would add to the awesome imagery of midnight essence armor to include it being mutable and morphable. So tentacles, claws, scythes, and wings being able to form and then mold back with the body as needed.
edit: actually she should be able to make a real looking midnight essence, considering the murders were done by midnight essences that did in fact look like the original perpetrator.
Is one of the requirements of Odium’s champion is that they must bond an Unmade? Dalinar was shaped by Nergaoul and had he become champion as Odium thought then Dalinar would have literally become the Thrill. Amaram led the human army in Odium’s name at Thylen City; he was told to bond Yelig-Nar. If Shallan were to become Champion, her natural bond partner based off of what we’re seeing in this chapter would be Re-Shepir. So, is this Odium’s modus operandi in choosing a champion or is it a more general thing, that all his generals must be bonded to his cognitive shadows in order for him to work with them? It would be like if Ruin built an army, the leaders of said army would be required to possess a hemalurgic spike. If Odium is transitioning into using human agents, it would make sense to require a control measure such as that to build obedience into their spiritweb. He’s basically doing that with the Singers already.
@48 EvilMonkey
On one hand I would agree, because Shallan noticed that the nightmother seemed to be missing something she once held. The implication to me was greater sapience which could have been the product of a bond. However the mythica does reference that some of the unmade are mindless which implies to me they never had more sapience than we see today. Either that or when they did was so long ago it was forgotten even by the research done for the mythica. Personally I feel this all varies from Unmade to Unmade. Some are more sapient (sja-anat and yelig-nar), while some are just mindless (nergaoul, ashterman, and possible moelach). It could be the initial transformation made them that way, or like the fused and heralds, the continual return from death has eroded their minds. So many questions, can’t wait for book 4!
A couple of random thoughts/comments:
10 Fools
Since the historical “King’s Fool” is, on Roshar, “King’s Wit”, I’m thinking that Hoid has spent a lot more time on the planet that we realize. Either that or, if it is a Cosmere term (as opposed to just Roshar), it could refer to actions he has taken across worlds. Regardless, Hoid can definitely be seen as ten types of a fool.
Urithru Column
Since the Midnight Mother seemed to be anchoring herself to/around the column, my thought was that she was either
a) using its power to feed/sustain herself, in which case the power would start coming back on once she is defeated and the battery/fabrial has a chance to recharge. or
b) there is a spren tied to it that she has corrupted (similar to the travel gates that were corrupted), in which case it will need to be healed/changed/reactivated via Shadesmar
Why can’t Dalinar sense the Midnight Mother?
The reason may be as simple as it is the KR’s spren that senses her rather than the KR him/herself. Since the Midnight Mother is hiding deep within Urithru, the Stormfather may simply not get close enough to her to sense, whereas both Pattern and Glys, living inside the city, are close enough to feel her presence (at least on an unconscious level).
@50 RogerPavelle
Regarding the 10 fools, there was a theory around for awhile that the 10 fools were the 10 heralds corrupted/turn “insane” by abandoning the oathpact and thereby act opposite of their ideals. I wouldn’t say this WoB absolutely confirms the corrupted/”insanity” part, but it does certainly confirm that the 10 fools are meant to represent the opposites of the 10 heralds. WoB below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/194-general-reddit-2011/#e4157
Regarding the Urithiru Column, personally I think enough time had passed that if the first option (battery recharge) was the case, then it would have happened by now. As to the spren being corrupted, personally I do not think that is the case, but I do not have any evidence that would support that other than my own opinion. I wish you luck with your theory!
Regarding the Midnight Mother, hmmm that is a possibility. When Dalinar asked to see inside buildings, the Stormfather did say he could only show where the storm goes, and since the storm cannot reach the bowels of Urithiru, that could be true.
Re-shephir isn’t the Unmade who corrupts spren, though. That’s Sja-anat.
Different spren, different types of corruption.
@53 RogerPavelle
Ehhhh, I don’t know. The book was pretty clear that each Unmade had their own “schtick” as it were. Nergaoul does the Thrill, Moelach the Death Rattles, Re-Shephir does the midnight essences, Ashertmarn The Heart of the Revel, Yelig-nar the 10 surges, and Sja-anat corrupts spren. There are I think three left we don’t fully know what they do yet, but the other six seem to be pretty locked into their thing.
Ba-Ado-Mishram probably enables Connection between singers and ancestors
The “schtick” of Chemoarish and Dai-Gonarthis (if he’s really an Unmade) are not known