This year, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone is celebrating the 20th anniversary of the U.S. publication and even now, two decades later, there are certain debates that continue to rage like fiendfyre throughout the fandom: Who is worse, Umbridge or Voldemort? Is Snape really good or evil? Which Deathly Hallows would you choose? The fact that we still continue to feel so passionately about these topics speaks to the breadth and complexity of the wonderful world that J.K. Rowling created. For me, there is one particular question that I can’t stop asking, and it is, admittedly, a rather controversial one: did the Sorting Hat put Harry in the wrong house?
Like any fan, I have a certain personal stake in this question. From the first moment I opened a copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone in 2001, I knew I was a Slytherin. It was the summer after my freshman year of college and I was babysitting my cousin’s children. In an effort to keep myself entertained while the kids were asleep upstairs, I perused the available books and plucked the title off the shelf, skeptical that this kids book was really as good as everyone claimed.
A few hours later, my cousin and her husband returned home and I begged them to let me borrow it so I could finish reading. The next day, after staying up into the wee hours to find out what happened, I went to the public library in my hometown for the second, third, and fourth books—all that was published at the time—and burned through them within a week. I was as hooked as Severus Snape’s nose.
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Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone
In the nearly twenty years since, I’ve never doubted my house, and every online test I’ve taken over the past two decades always confirms this conclusion. Always. When I go out, I proudly sport my green and silver, despite knowing how the rest of the wizarding world views us. Tell another Potter fan you’re a Slytherin and there is an unmistakable shift in their demeanor, which is really unfair—especially because I firmly believe the Sorting Hat made a mistake when it came to the Chosen One.
The Sorting Hat, as we know, stubbornly refuses to admit that it has ever placed a student in the incorrect house. Still, we have to consider how close it came to putting Harry in Slytherin and that, in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, the Sorting Hat doubles down, saying it was right: Harry “would have done well in Slytherin.” True, Harry unknowingly carried a piece of Voldemort’s soul inside of him—but could that small fragment really explain all of the times Harry exhibited Slytherin traits throughout the series?
I’m not willing to buy the idea that the Sorting Hat is infallible, although perhaps that has more to do with plot than personality. For the sake of the story, I understand that it was perhaps necessary to place Harry, Ron, and Hermione in the same house… but, c’mon: I think we can all agree Hermione really should have been in Ravenclaw.
Perhaps the Sorting Hat never makes a mistake—but I believe J.K. Rowling did, and so I present five reasons why I believe Harry Potter should have been sorted into Slytherin:
He is distantly related to Voldemort
As we learned in Deathly Hallows, both Voldemort and Harry are descendants of the Peverell brothers making them (very) distantly related. Then again, as we also learn throughout the books, many wizarding families tend to intermarry, so chances are Harry is related in some way to nearly every wizard he meets.
When it comes to his ancestry, what is most striking is not Harry’s individual lineage, but the magical artifact attributed to each Peverell brother. Harry descends from Ignotus Peverell, the owner of the Invisibility Cloak. An invisibility cloak that allowed Ignotus to cheat Death through deceit. An invisibility cloak that was passed down through the generations to Harry, who, as we will see, uses it for some of his more… cunning enterprises.
He is ambitious
Like Harry, readers are taught to dislike Slytherins because our ambition is seen as a negative trait. J.K. Rowling paints Slytherins as power-hungry; ambitious only in superficial terms: seeking fame, money, glory, etc. This is a flawed perspective, of course: Hermione’s desire for top grades in all of her classes is ambitious, but her drive isn’t seen as a bad thing the way it is when Slytherins exhibit a similar level of determination.
It is that level of determination that really elevates Harry to the role of Slytherin: in every book, he sets himself on a path to reach his end goal regardless of cost. He is a kid who knows what he wants and will do whatever it takes to get it: reaching the Sorcerer’s Stone before Snape Quirrell does; getting into the Chamber of Secrets to save Ginny; breaking into Gringotts; infiltrating the Ministry of Magic…twice.
That said, there is a bit of that power-hungry nature in the mix because despite all of his arguments to the contrary, Harry does have a bit of a Hero Complex. Or, as Hermione puts it in Order of the Phoenix, “Don’t you think you’ve got a bit of a— a— saving-people-thing?”
Even when the very level-headed—and correct, mind you—Hermione is telling Harry that chances are, Sirius is safe and Voldemort is merely exploiting Harry’s need to be recognized as a hero, he refuses to listen: determined yet again that he and he alone knows how to save the day.
He is cunning
Ah, cunning. The act—or, in some cases, the art—of using deceit to achieve one’s ends. Some will argue that Harry’s veiled lies and mild manipulations are forgivable because he was often doing it for, what he believed was, the greater good. But the definition doesn’t take end goal into account. This goes back to that determination thing: Harry is a kid who knows what he wants, and sometimes he plays dirty to get it.
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In An Absent Dream
For example, that time in Sorcerer’s Stone when Harry, desperate to get into the Restricted Section of the library, uses his Invisibility Cloak. Really, anytime Harry used his Invisibility Cloak: sneaking into Hogsmeade; spying on Draco on the Hogwarts Express (seriously, he deserved that broken nose); and every other time he used it to be somewhere he wasn’t supposed to be, often clandestinely gaining valuable information in the process.
Harry’s acts of deception go beyond just the cloak he inherited from Ignotus: In Half-Blood Prince, Harry surreptitiously takes advantage of Snape’s notes to impress Slughorn, and let’s not forget how much Polyjuice Potion was consumed over the course of seven books.
Then there is that time in Deathly Hallows when Griphook says he will help the trio break into Gringotts in exchange for the sword of Gryffindor. Harry agrees, conveniently leaving out the part where he is being “careful to avoid telling [Griphook] exactly when he can have it.” When Hermione points out that it could take years before all the Horcruxes are destroyed, Harry says Griphook doesn’t need to know that part.
Yeah. Super noble of you there, Harry.
He has a certain disregard for the rules
Oh, your guardians didn’t give you permission to go to Hogsmeade so you decide you’re just going to don that Invisibility Cloak of yours and sneak in? Okay then. Plus all of the times in the Restricted Section, the third floor corridor, the being out of bed at night…
Did I mention he infiltrated the Ministry of Magic twice? First because he believed Voldemort has kidnapped Sirius in Order of the Phoenix and later, in Deathly Hallows, when he needed to steal the locket from Umbridge.
Merlin’s beard, no wonder there was a moment where Dumbledore thought Harry had figured out how to get around the Goblet of Fire’s Age Line.
His courage is questionable
One of Gryffindor’s key traits is bravery, but there is a difference between being brave and acting impulsively in the face of fear. Harry skews more towards the latter, and his impulsiveness ties in closely with his determined need to be the hero, running recklessly into dangerous situations in order to prove himself. He’s so foolhardy in his actions that he often ends up being wrong: Snape wasn’t trying to steal the stone; Dumbledore wasn’t really going to let Gabrielle drown in the Second Task; Voldemort didn’t really kidnap Sirius, etc.
When the Sorting Hat considers putting Harry into Slytherin, it was really presenting Harry with an opportunity. Allowing himself to be sorted into Slytherin—the house everyone hates, the house with the negative reputation—would have been the more courageous choice. He had the chance to buck tradition and centuries-long assumptions about this particular house.
If we’ve learned anything from Neville Longbottom, it’s that sometimes true bravery looks like boldly challenging the status quo. Instead, by begging the hat not to put him in Slytherin, Harry let his prejudices get in the way.
Dumbledore tells Harry that “it is our choices… that show what we truly are” and if that’s true, Harry took the easy choice—which means he might not live up to the ideal of the brave Gryffindor lion after all.
Jill Grunenwald is an INTJ Slytherin librarian and author of the memoir Running With a Police Escort: Tales from the Back of the Pack. She lives in Cleveland, where she is a staff librarian at OverDrive and co-host of the Professional Book Nerds podcast. Her three favorite words are All Day Breakfast. Jill can be found on Twitter.
Nah, Gryffindor’s key trait is not bravery. It is poor decision making skills. Harry is right on the bell curve for that.
He’s both and neither, at the same times.
I believe the dead should stay dead, that learning how to spellcast in order to use the wand is too much like work, but a cloak of invisibility and the name of a good fence would be the key to some sweet and easy living.
The sorting hat is seriously flawed if it refuses to acknowledge people would change throughout their lives. When I was younger I wanted to be a cool and edgy Slytherin but as I’ve aged (like a fine wine) I realise that probably being a Hufflepuff would be the best. The house of low expectations and safe middle of the road living. I could deal with being that now I’m older, it actually seems like a cherry gig.
Nah, Gryffindor’s key trait is not bravery. It is poor decision making skills. Harry is right on the bell curve for that.
Dudley Doright of the Rocky and Bullwinkle show. Such a Gryffindor.
Rocky, too. I’m not sure about Bullwinkle. Maybe a Hufflepuff.
Because of the prophecy Harry could not have been slytherin.
If he was there would have been no sword to kill the basilisk aka the sorting hat wins.
If Harry had been sorted into Slytherin, there’d still be the prophecy’s spare – Neville.
Though the ending of the Deathly Hallows equivalent would have been Neville having to kill Harry.
@@.-@,
So, it’s possible that the Sorting Hat placed Harry into Gryffindor knowing it was not the best match for his personality and character but for political reasons? I kind of like that reason: the Sorting Hat has its own agenda, and Harry is a tool to further it.
Of course, the 11-year old students starting at Hogwarts are still somewhat malleable. One wonders how things would differ had, say, Draco, been placed into a different house.
Harry could have been in Slytherin; Hermione could have been in Ravenclaw; Ron could have been in Hufflepuff. (To be clear, I’m firmly on Team Hufflepuff (though if I’d been Sorted at ten I certainly would have been Ravenclaw). They’re unfairly maligned since we see them from the perspective of children, but loyalty, friendship, and hard work are arguably the most adult of the virtues of all the Houses. Sam Gamgee in LOTR is both the true hero of the story and the quintessential Hufflepuff.) But the Hat placed all of them in Gryffindor, perhaps because it knew the trait of all Houses would be required to defeat Voldemort.
Pretty sure the Hat would have put Harry in Slytherin if he hadn’t whined so hard…sorry, been so emphatic about not wanting to be in that House. Under the circumstances, and with what limited information he had, I can’t blame him for his choice, but he did basically coerce the Hat into putting him into Gryffindor.
How Slytherin of him.
I thought it was clear from the books that the Sorting Hat could have chosen either Slytherin or Griffindor but Harry saying in his head “not Slytherin, not Slytherin” was the deciding factor. The Hat respected and honored Harry’s choice.
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Who’s worse? Uxbridge or Voldemort?
That’s even a question? Uxbridge is, at worst, an officious bureaucrat who may be trying to deal with a school with a disturbing number of students dying and disappearing, and doing so in a typical law-and-order fashion.
Voldemort is actively genocidal.
Bullwinkle is definitely a Gryffindor. After all, he does pull a Gryffindor Lion out of that hat that one time. He’s courageous, too.
Not sure I see how Rowling made a mistake. Harry didn’t want to be in Slytherin & the hat said he’d do well there but went along with Harry’s wishes and sorted him into Gryffindor.
Neville wasn’t challenging the status quo, he was challenging the three Gryffindors that he considered his friends. Considering how out of place Neville felt at Hogwarts, a truly brave act. Had Neville simply gone along with what they were doing he would have been more like Wormtail. Dumbledore awarded Neville the exact amount of points needed for Gryffindor to win the house cup precisely in recognition of this act of Neville’s; not just extra points, but the points needed exactly.
Could we resort everyone in the book to our likings? Sure. Hermoine definitely should be in Ravenclaw, but again, she wanted to be in Gryffindor. And the Soring Hat, as with Harry, took her personal desires/reasons into account.
The Hat simply sorts based on ability & desire. I have never gotten the feeling that it sorted based on any prescient abilities. It is just a bewitched hat that is very good at its job & has been around a very long time and remembers things.
As to Harry letting his prejudices get in the way: considering his childhood up to this point, why would he go into a house that was to take Draco Malfoy? They got off on the wrong foot from their first meeting in Diagon Alley. And he met Ron, his first friend of his own as far as we can see, and Ron wants/needs to be in Gryffindor. Why would he choose Slytherin at that point?
Kato
Gryffindors’ salient trait is not bravery, but bravado. Not really the same thing. And in many important ways they overlap with Slytherins, the major difference being that the latter are more honest and candid about their self-serving nature. The two houses likely have such bitter enmity because they are more similar to each other than to either of the other two.
The Sorting Hat can claim that it has always placed very student into the correct House because the concept of ‘correctness’ itself is sort of meaningless here: there’s only the House you are in, and your interactions with other students through your school years both reflect and define your House’s traits for the next incoming classes. The House system is a useful on-ramp to the world of Hogwarts in the first year but by the time of DH its clearly just a reflection of the prejudices and hierarchies that seem to be inevitable in any society.
IMO Harry is brave enough to be a Gryffindor, but for sheer, cold courage nobody in the series matches Snape.
Just a hole to be poked in the last point of your argument (about bucking tradition) by this Ravenclaw here.
Harry wouldn’t have known about the centuries of prejudice against Slytherins. Remember, up until a month prior to the commencement of his studies at Hogwarts, Harry knew nothing of the Wizarding World. His psychopomp, as it were, Hagrid doesn’t exactly give him a perfect run down of how that world, and especially how Hogwarts, works. He doesn’t even know how Platform 9 3/4 works until the Weasley family gives him the ultimate helping hand. Then the one person he meets on that initial train ride who knows a head of time that he will be a Slytherin, Draco, is a bully just like Dudley being cruel to these new found friends of Harry’s. Then Ron, if I recall correctly, says that all his family is Gryffindor and Ron is friendly and so is his whole family. I don’t recall (it’s been a while since I picked up the books) if prior to the Sorting Hat Song, Harry even knew about the existence of Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. So the only thing he knows is the world is divided into the friendly nice Weasley like Gryffindors or the Bully Draco Slytherins. It’s a logical reason why he would beg to be the former and not the latter.
And a note for the Random22: I agree with JK that Hufflepuffs are not the easy house with little ambition, intelligence, or bravery. I cite not Cedric (who was a sterling example) but Pomona Sprout herself. I find that she was brilliant enough to handle the mandrake roots, she was brave during the battle of Hogwarts and the incursions of the ever tainted Ministry from Book 5 onwards, and she had ambition enough to become the Head of Household. Therefore, she if anyone shows that Hufflepuffs do not take the easy way out or are not hard workers.
Ok, where to start where to start. 1st the sorting hat is fallible but like anything is using hindsight to say it was right. Hermione based off who she was prior to befriending Harry and Ron, should have been in Ravenclaw. The Sorting Hat would argue he was right because her bravery showed later on, which we probably would have never seen if she didn’t become part of the trio. There is also Peter Pettigrew…. no clue why he was in Gryffindor or how the Hat would try to pull an explanation out of its hole.
1- Relationship to Voldemort. Zero relevance. 1st since pure-bloods are basically all product of interbreeding then if bloodline and family ties truly mattered everyone would be in 1 house. Also Sirius wasn’t in the same house, the Patil sisters are in different houses.
2- Harry’s actually not that ambitious. He really doesn’t try hard in anything other than Quidditch, saving his loved ones and stopping the “bad guys”.
3- Again not that cunning. Without Hermione he’d barely do anything. No Hermione, no knowing about the stone, no polyjuice potion, etc
4- Either way can be argued
5- Courage is definitely not questionable. A big part of bravery is throwing caution into the wind for the right reasons. Oddly I’d say he’s more brave in the early years then later on.
I admit to preferring the fan theory that the hat basically sorts into three houses based on personality, but puts people who ask for it into Gryffindor (the “popular people” house). Wouldn’t explain Herminone though, as you say she really should have been a Ravenclaw.
@Victoria,
He may not be aware of the centuries long prejudice but JKR does set it up so that Harry — and in turn, readers — see Slytherin as the bad house. Hagrid tells me “not a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn’t in Slytherin” line (not true, btw. I’m looking at you, Peter Pettigrew) and then Ron also says “Imagine if they put me in Slytherin” and Harry connects that to Voldemort and “bad” wizards and witches.
Why does this article feel like it’s tearing down Harry instead of preaching the supposed virtues of Slytherin?
I wonder what stigma attaches to students of Hogwarts, later in life? How many adults remember which house each other were assigned to, and keep giving Slytherins the stink eye? How many prejudices does this system foster, when in reality it means nothing given that a Gryffindor can be anything from a Neville to a Pettigrew? If Hermione wanted a real cause to get behind, she should have sought to abolish house distinction.
Not sure this argument hangs together. It’s not like the Houses have exclusive claim to their virtues. Cedric is brave in Hufflepuff, to add to the listing that’s already happened both in the article and in earlier comments. Rather, it’s about defining features and outlook on life–and as your own Green and Silver pride shows, one of the key aspects is pride in and identification with your house, which Harry most definitely indicated he wouldn’t have with his “Not Slytherin” chant. Harry isn’t someone inclined to embrace his inner Slytherin, even though he has one (and a lot of the traits you describe in him fit James Potter, too, who was also Gryffindor-sorted).
I tend to be “sorted” via the many online quizzes into Hufflepuff. And, random22, I strongly disagree that Hufflepff is the house of “low expectations and middle-of-the-road living.” As Rowling herself wrote, the Hufflepuffs “are just and loyal” and “not afraid of toil.”
I’m old enough to remember wanting to be a Ravenclaw or a Gryffindor while reading the books and watching the films. I’m also a professor of English at the college level. I remember in the books that, supposedly, Helga Hufflepuff (after the other three founders set conditions for the students they would accept into their house, said, “I’ll teach the lot, and treat them just the same.”
My college has admission standards, obviously (although we accept a LOT of students who get rejected from other colleges). And I just CANNOT imagine “sorting” my students based upon cleverness, or bravery, or erudition. They are all wonderful, and I “treat them just the same.”
Hufflepuff forever,
Jaime
Don’t forget however that Albus Severus Potter which is Harry’s son was sorted into Slytherin.
I think that the Sorting Hat was right. It has never placed a student into the wrong House.
Because there is no wrong House.
Everyone’s personality is made up of multiple facets. Those come through strongest in different times of our lives. At best, the Sorting Hat places students in the House where they show the greatest aptitude *currently*. However, no matter what House they are in, they all need to learn the same lessons.
Would it have been a different book had Harry been sorted to Slytherin? Sure; Malfoy would never have become Seeker, different teams would have won the Cup, different confrontations would have occurred early on. But the major arcs of the story? Those really don’t change. Students are called upon to stand agaisnt the rise of the Dark Lord, and Harry (whos personality wouldn’t be majorly affected by which building his bed is in) would still be in front of it all. Would his friends have changed, without Harry being beside them in the common room? Might more have died, given the way others treat those in Slytherin? Possibly. The ending would sure have more in jeopardy (which is hard to believe, but true).
But I believe that Harry would have found his place, no matter which House he sat in. And Voldemort would have sought immortality and revenge just the same.
BrowncoatJayson – well said.
I also greatly appreciate the fact that Harry got sorted into Gryffindor because he asked to be. Could Harry have been a good Slytherin? Sure – but he is just as good a Gryffindor(at least in my opinion) As others above have said, Gryffindor & Slytherin are a bit too similar to each other for comfort, hence how they grate on each other. Harry as Slytherin would have indeed made for a very different story(and I’m sure there’s been AU fiction written on this!!). I honestly don’t know if Harry is quite cunning enough(sometimes he just isn’t self-aware enough to be cunning!!), but he’s certainly ambitious enough. I love that line by Hermione – calling him out on his hero complex.
And I don’t hate on Slytherin – I know some fantastic ones(shout-out to Celebrinnen!), so I’m quite ok with imagining that Harry would have made quite a good one as well.
Harry should have been in the house he chose. It’s that simple. In OotP, Hermione relates her story about the Sorting Hat telling her that she should be in Ravenclaw, but she chose Gryffindor instead. It’s one of the two themes that are repeated throughout the books: Your choices determine who you are and Love is the most powerful magic (so powerful that even Muggles can tap into it and it crosses all other magical barriers, like house elf magic being different than wizard magic). Harry didn’t want to be in Slytherin. The guy who murdered his parents was a Slytherin and the biggest jerk of a kid was also in Slytherin. In the end, the Sorting Hat just puts you into the house you want to be in.
For j.k.Rowling. ..Mam…my son of 6 yrs old questions that y you stopped writing harry potter.please write more.he wants you to wrote for the generations as he believes creativity of writing should be continued till last breath .
This article is so excellently timed as just yesterday I refound my Pottermore login data and confirmed that yes, I remembered correctly – I am a Slytherin! (Thought I’d get Ravenclaw, TBH. And then my friends took the sorting test and got either Gryffindor or in one case, Hufflepuff). Despite all of them being somewhere else, I am happily embracing my inner Slytherin more and more :)
I do agree that Harry would have probably done well in Slytherin, and I have also wondered how Hermione ended up in Gryffindor and not in Ravenclaw, but, as said by many, I think the key here was the desire (as, again pointed out by many, with his limited experience and knowledge, it is totally understandable why Harry wished to avoid Slytherin). I think there were character traits in all three that could have had them sorted into another House entirely and I wonder how much of all students’ traits were nourished or suppressed by the House they ended up in. I have also pondered about the fact that we actually do not know Slytherins so well at all. What we see onscreen is the other Houses’ contempt for Slytherin and a few not-the-best examples of their students (looking at Crabbe and Goyle here, not even going to mention Voldemort), but what about all the other students who have belonged or do belong there? So, yeah. Bad publicity, is what I say.
Besides, I really do like Snape :)
He would have died in book two if he was anything but Gryffindor so that is why he has to be gryffindor.
@30. As protagonist and title character, if he’d been in another house then Rowling would have written another way for him to survive the chamber.
When we consider Harry’s sorting into Gryffindor a choice I think it becomes incredibly important to note one other detail that many people overlook. Can you recall a single character that ever, ever feels unhappy about their house placement? You could argue Neville, perhaps, when he doubts his own courage, but when he is sorted, he is happy. It’s that detail that leaves me to believe that the sorting hat only considers your desire to be in a certain house and that the subsequent traits are all of the individuals making stemming from idolizing the 4 founders. Their followers/admirers all wished to be like those individuals courageous, cunning, intelligent, or amiable. Yes we have characters that question if they were be at to be in their house, Harry does it himself many times. But the fact of the matter is that they’re never unhappy with their placement only doubtful of their own ability to live up to the characteristics of that house. So should Harry have been a slytherin? Perhaps. But is that ever what the sorting hat was really looking at or was it the individuals’ desires what actually determines their placement? Personally I think the house you are placed in holds no more stock in it than what we give it. It means nothing more about you than what you aspire to be. Personally I always score as a Gryffindor, Slytherin and Ravenclaw sometimes come as a close second. Those quizzes ask us what we would do in a situation and sort us according to what we most closely align with. But those are hypothetical questions and what you would hypothetically do might be much different than what you would actually do which supports the theory that what you desire to be trumps what you actually are in terms of being sorted. It’s actually quite a beautiful thought, in that it encourages children growing up to be as they aspire to be, and not be bound solely by their upbringing or other factors. It means we can be whatever we want to be, and I think that’s fantastic.
I have always seen the way Sorting Hat’s methods as based on what the individual values rather than their actual traits. Neville isn’t exactly the bravest dude but he values courage because he looks up to his parents. Luna is quite brave, but places a lot of value on her knowledge, so she is in Ravenclaw. I think for me this way of looking at it has put placements in a more personally meaningful light. Plus, there is nothing wrong with valuing leadership and ambition- we just saw a couple Slytherins in the books and I’m sure there are a lot more wonderful Slytherins.
It does seem clear that if the student has a strong preference for a house the Hat will sort him/her where they want to go. Judging by Harry’s experience it will give you a bit of an argument, point out why some other House would be a good fit for you but if you hold firm to your choice you get it.
Maybe that’s how Peter Pettigrew, a born coward, got into Gryffindor, he wanted to be a Gryffindor, he wanted to be brave. It obviously didn’t work out like he hoped.
@31/random22: Hell, as protagonist and title character, the house into which Harry was sorted was guaranteed to have the traits favored by the author no matter if the Houses were named after John, Paul, George, and Ringo. The only way the traits currently associated with ‘Slytherin’ would have been presented in a positive light and assigned to Harry’s house would be if the author were an Objectivist or something like that…
ETA: Hoo boy, now I’m envisioning a Twitter fight between JK Rowling and Ayn Rand, wowza! :-)
@35/Ian,
A twitter fight between JKR and Ayn Rand? But surely Ayn Rand would have simply … shrugged.
Rand was too busy claiming medicare to defend her principles, Rowling too busy counting her money that she was giving to charity. Clearly the match would never be able to be fought.
I don’t see how being ambitious and cunning is necessarily bad though. It can certainly be twisted into being bad, but so could any of the house virtues. Clearly there is a long term institutional issue at the heart of the Slytherin problem which has not been adequately defined much less tackled. A headmaster or deputy head who was a Ravenclaw would have got to the bottom of it, I feel.
When I googled “cunning definition” the first that came up was:
“having or showing skill in achieving one’s ends by trickery or evasion”
But then I noticed there were other sites offering definitions that were not really consistent with this, and more in alignment with simply being clever.
JRRT gave “Saruman” as meaning “cunning mind”, and as he was a philologist I’m inclined interpret it in line with being deceitful. But then, words mean whatever people have come to understand them to mean, and in these modern times the meaning may have shifted.
@35,
Ooh, politics. The objectivist Slytherins would spend so much time stabbing each other in the back, they would have trouble organizing a game of solitaire.
@39,
That might make an excellent admission test – show that you can play a game of solitaire without either cheating or throwing a temper tantrum.
You forgot one thing. Sirius and Harry’s father, James also possessed some of the traits that [might have] made Harry a better member of Slytherin House. If anyone belonged in Slytherin, it was Sirius, purely for being pureblood from a Slytherin family tree. He was sorted into Gryffindor by choice, as was James, half by choice and half by heritage. Both were cunning, ambitious and reckless like Harry, and neither one was even a horcrux for Tom Riddle’s shattered soul.
This is a thoughtful opinion piece, however one important theme throughout the series is how our decisions make us the people we become. Harry Potter chose Gryffindor. The Sorting Hat obliged. No matter what other Slytherin traits he possessed, Harry made the decision he did not want to be sorted into Slytherin, hence the Sorting Hat did not make a mistake in sorting him into Gryffindor.
No one belongs purely to one house. It’s like stereotyping or labeling someone, or even astrological sign. (Okay, Hogwarts houses also based on 4 elemental signs)
I think sorting hat probably see the core value of the person. Take Neville Longbottom. He’s cowardly, but he values bravery and striving it.
Then again, everyone can be brave, resourceful, wise, and kind at the same time. But not everyone has the same core value.
I am firmly of the belief that the core traits of Slytherin’s mean that no true Slytherin would not want to be Slytherin. Therefore, Harry insisting that he didn’t want to be Slytherin proves that he shouldn’t have been.
If Harry had been a Slytherin, someone would’ve been ordered to smother him in his sleep.
Cunning is related to German kennen (to know) and können (to be able to). It is also related to kenning, which Tolkien as an Old English scholar was of course familiar with (Turin’s many names could be interpreted as kennings).
Yes, definitely several fanfics of Harry as a Slytherin, but a little more interesting was one apparently abandoned fic I saw in which Draco was sorted into Gryffindor. Not a happy kid; appalled, mortified, and utterly horrified at the thought of what his father would say when he found out. But the Hat had seen a glimmer of something in him that might be brought out by Gryffindor. Too bad the fic was never finished.
I’m not really sure if I buy your argument that Harry might have been better placed in Slytherin, given the kind of person that he is. Even if that *is* the case, though, you’re forgetting what JK Rowling has told us about the sorting hat (although I can’t be arsed now to find a link to her saying so): it sorts you, not on the basis of the person you are, but of the one you want to be.
@46/Birgit,
Which explains why somewhere Scotty (Star Trek, possibly from one of the James Blish adaptations) says “I dinna ken what you’re sayin’, man.”
“Give up cunning, and put an end to your troubles.” (Lao Tsu)
I think that you make the a good argument but where I disagree with is when you use the Hero Complex as an argument in you favor. Having a hero complex is a negative trait of a Gryffindor and something a Slytherin is unlikely to have. This very Gryffindorian trait is what lead him to follow through with Dumbledore’s plan despite his betrayal. Again few if any Slytherins would have done that.
Having said that I think Rowling really missed the ball by not having at least one Slytherin in the DA.
With regards to Hermoine she obviously would have been at home in Ravenclaw (my house) but given her post school activities seem to mostly revolve around her SPEW work I maintain that she absolutely a Gryffindor.
I was as hooked as Severus Snape’s nose. – Hahaha… good one
“Merlin’s beard, no wonder there was a moment where Dumbledore thought Harry had figured out how to get around the Goblet of Fire’s Age Line.” – Hahaha, yeah Jill, you’re funny I give you that. But critcism upon your article is coming up next.
@8 – “but he did basically coerce the Hat into putting him into Gryffindor. How Slytherin of him.” – *cackling*
@15 – “IMO Harry is brave enough to be a Gryffindor, but for sheer, cold courage nobody in the series matches Snape.” *me clapping hands enthusiastically*
@20 – “Why does this article feel like it’s tearing down Harry instead of preaching the supposed virtues of Slytherin?” – EXACTLY my critic. But we’ll get to that.
@29- “Besides, I really do like Snape :)” – Me too. :)
@32 – That’s the best insight of the sorting til now in my opinion.
@45- “If Harry had been a Slytherin, someone would’ve been ordered to smother him in his sleep.” Haha, yeah that’s about right
Now, to the article. I won’t tackle every so called fact, because as so many stated her, the 4 houses have personality traits that are basic ones for every human being. Though some are more dominant than others, hence the difference between every person. But to find and list several examples (mind you only examples) which point out one trait (slytherin) while ignoring thousands of pages with examples of the other traits, raises the question of your motif to begin with.
So Jill, I respect you, but just because you found yourself in Slytherin and it nagged you that the main protagonist in your beloved book is not, doesn’t justify you making a mishmash if not twisting things, just so you can be in peace with you being Slytherin. So instead of you trying to show us how bad JK did with the presentation of house Slytherin (which is much more debatable in my opinion), you tried the Slytherin way. You can be proud being a Slytherin. You feel it’s great? tell us why. But last time I checked JK’s the author and she wanted the protagonist a Gryffindor. So the author is wrong? and the sorting hat? and Dumbledore? and Harry in choosing it? the whole world is wrong just because you think you are right? I don’t know
Okay, let’s get into it. Is Snape a bad person? Yes. Is Harry ambitious? No. Ambition is having a defined goal that is primarily focused on what you want. Harry was primarily trying to help others in his exploits. Is Harry cunning? Yes. Harry wasn’t completely prejudiced against Slytherin at this time, he didn’t want to spend the next 7 years in the same dorm as Malfoy. Is Harry brave? Yes, in the sense that he values other people’s lives more than his own. Did Harry want to be seen as a hero? No. Harry hated his fame, and hated the spotlight. When he’s going to help Sirius? The last time he had a dream like that, someone would’ve died if not for him. So there was a precedent. In addition, Harry and Dumbledore hadn’t been on good terms that year, so he wasn’t inclined to listen to Dumbledore. Finally, Harry’s problems with authority. Oh, boy. Let’s look at the authority in Harry’s life. The Dursleys, who abused him. Snape, who bullied him because he was friendzoned. The Ministry. Harry has learned that authority is not to be trusted.
Clearly he could of have went either way. What’s important 2 note is that ULTIMATELY!!! It’s HIS CHOICE!!
The whole dictum of: “Smart people go here, brave people go here, stolid work-a-days go here, and venal conniving aristocrats (or aristocrat wannabes) go here, isn’t really supported.
If all the smart people went the Ravenclaw, it would be kind of…awkward. Many have mentioned how Hermoine should have been in Ravenclaw, but what about Dumbledore himself? Probably one of the greatest prodigies ever to go through the school?
Like others have said, it appears that the candidate’s desires are taken into account. Hermoine, in true Hermoine fashion, read up on Hogwarts prior to arriving and decided she wanted to be in the “Hero House” of Griffindor. It also seems that Griffindors are also defined by their passion for causes outside of themselves, something that Hermoine definitely has in spades. Harry is very passionate about helping others and does not care for bullies (his experience growing up with Dudley were probably formative here) Whereas Ravenclaws tend to be more academic and detached, in an intellectual fashion. Though these traits, like the other more common ones debated, are not all encompassing and are merely factors taken into account.
As for Slytherin, there seems to be a primary trait of self interest and preserving or advancing self identified issues. This does not mean that Slytherins don’t care or love others, particularly family and friends, and maybe some have the desire to be there due to family tradition and affiliation, but self interest does seem to be an influence.
The Long and the short of it is that the Houses in the first couple of books were just short hand labels for decent kids, bullies, and ‘other kids’. I don’t think the author was ever really all that consistent in the houses to begin with, which kind of takes the wind out of the whole argument
I am far from the only one to have made note that a truly Slytherin character, one with cunning and ambition, would never allow him/herself to be sorted into Slytherin House.
Where is the cunning in allowing yourself to be labeled? A true Slytherin would get himself into either Gryffindor (the whole ‘rush in where angels fear to tread’ meme for that house would surely annoy a true Slytherin to no end) or far more likely Hufflepuff, where he could gather his future minions to his banner without all that suspicion that wearing Green and Silver inspires.
As far as the Emergency Back-Up Boy Who Lived goes, just remember, like the popular Tee-shirt says, “Neville could have gotten it done in 4 Books”
Thanks to the SyFy channel having a Harry Potter movie marathon, I can address this question as shown in the movie version. My son read the books, I just enjoyed the movies with him as a reward for reading the books. In the movies, Harry questions why the Sorting Hat had recommended him for Slytherin when he preferred Gryffindor and he was told that the choice was made by the Sorting Hat based on his inclinations( based on his sharing a link to Voldemort). As everyone knows Harry had skills, which he didn’t learn but would show up unexpected (like the ability to speak with snakes) but he also was able to connect with Dumbledore’s Pheonix. Harry didn’t really belong to one specific house.
@53, Is Snape a bad person ? Obviously not given the hideous risks he takes in the cause of Good. Is he an unpleasant, bullying, and petty person? Hell yes! Good doesn’t equal nice.
Is Snape good or evil? Well, he’s certainly an ass. And the worst spy in the history of spies.
Imagine, if you will, the Hitler wanted to place a spy in Churchill’s staff. Would said spy spend his time goose-stepping around, and flinging the straight-armed salute left and right? Or would he attempt to blend in?
What did Snape teach the Slytherins? That they were worthy of respect, or that cheating is the only way they could come out on top?
His treatment of Harry was universally wrong, from their first meeting to their last, where Snape used his dying breath to make sure the Harry knew he’d been wanking to Lily’s memory for Harry’s entire life.
So, yeah, Snape is an ass. And the worst spy, ever.
@56 – “As far as the Emergency Back-Up Boy Who Lived goes, just remember, like the popular Tee-shirt says, “Neville could have gotten it done in 4 Books” . Wow, see, I love Neville as much as any, but why I think you underestimate him, he could have done it in the 1st book, while at the same time creating the Philosopher’s Stone and giving Dumbledore private lessons about how to be a REAL great wizard. Heck, why not saying that Colin Creevey could bust Voldy and defeat Krum in quidditch while dancing the Macarena?
Honestly, Neville is great. Could he have done it? It seems so, as the prophecy took him in account if Voldy would choose him, but to know for a certainty that he would defeat Voldy in half the time? That’s just trying to degrade Harry, and that’s not called for in my opinion.
(by the way- what popular tee-shirt? Is there really one?)
Very interesting view, I totally agree. Harry has SO many attributes from Slytherin and that’s why he would’ve been great in Slytherin. I also don’t really believe that you can just say “I choose Gryffindor,” I don’t really believe that either. Jo has told us multiple times that the Sorting Hat takes into consideration what you VALUE. Just like Hermione gets put in Gryffindor even though many question if she should be in Ravenclaw. She even says it in the first book, “Books! And cleverness! There are more important things – friendship and bravery…” Even though she loves books and gaining all kinds of knowledge, she doesn’t value it the way she does with bravery. Therefore, Harry must value bravery, pride, or courage” over being ambitious and cunning.
Gryffindor’s house trait is actually choice. Everyone in Gryffindor aligns more strongly with some other house. Harry is a Slytherin, Hermione a Ravenclaw, Ron a Hufflepuff. Neville is a Hufflepuff. Fred, George and Percy are all Slytherins, as are Oliver and Dumbledore. Hagrid, Dean and Seamus are all Hufflepuffs, along with Molly Weasley, while Bill Weasley and Minerva are Ravenclaws. I could go on through every Gryffendor that we know much about.
And yet they’re all also brave at times, because bravery is largely a choice. They choose how to respond to danger and therin find bravery. But their cunning or loyalty or intellect are more inately part of them.
Gryffindor is hoax in that none of them are innately brave, but the peer pressure and expectations of being in Gryffindor pressure them into choosing to behave a certain way when the going gets tough. So should Harry be in Slytherin? Yes and no. It’s his natural home, yet at the same time he also makes Gryffindor style choices.
Everyone has traits that are appreciated by other houses but it is the traits that are foremost that count. Hermione could have been in Ravenclaw. Percy could have been in Slytherin. His open ambition to achieve acclaim from other wizards in power make him the laughing stock of his family. But he is so lacking in guile and is clearly incapable of any underhanded act to advance himself at the expense of another which means he cannot be a Slytherin. Newt also shows disregard for the rules… of MACUSA when he returns a smuggled Thunderbird to New York. He lies to achieve his ends. Does that make him a Slytherin?
@60
– Of course, it was a joke, one made funnier by the way Matt Lewis grew up.
(by the way- what popular tee-shirt? Is there really one?)
Yep
https://topatoco.com/products/snf-neville
Matt who did what? And about the joke, you refered to me or yourself?
thanks for the link. :)
@65
Look at photos of Matt Lewis, the Actor who played Neville Longbottom from the first movie, and then photos from the last film.
From a tubby little guy to a snake killing badass in a decade. He grew up good. Daniel Radcliffe grew up too, but he didn’t end up with the classic movie hero look.
Jokes lose so much when they have to be explained. The joke was Neville doing it in 4 books. JKR was doing 7 books from the start, if Neville had been the hero, it would have taken him 7 years.
Harry knowingly walked into the Forbidden Forest in order to allow Voldemort to kill him, because that was the only way he could save the world from Voldemort. Yes, Harry IS brave.
The greatest witches and wizards have the defining characteristics of all four houses. Hermione is smart enough to be a Ravenclaw, brave enough to be a Gryffindor, loyal enough to be a Hufflepuff, and sneaky enough to be a Slytherin. So is Dumbledore. So is Snape.
Rowling said in an interview that she values bravery most of all and detests bigotry most of all, which is why our heroes are all in Gryffindor, and the villains are prejudiced against Muggleborns. But true greatness requires a balance of all four houses, not an excess of any one.
Of course he was supposed to be a Slytherin, but he chose not to be. Hermione was supposed to be Ravenclaw, and Ron was supposed to be Hufflepuff. The way the Golden Three work is because they combine all the positive qualities of all four houses. How is this a new thing? We’ve been talking about it in my circle of family and friends for years.
Harry is not a Slytherin because Harry stays true to his social class throughout the story. Slytherin were not low commoners but middle level upper class. Harry was low level to middle level ‘commoner’. . As such, Harry never tried to find what is really going on as knowing what is going on is not the proper place for the commoner according to Rowling. Harry just stumbled from one partial understanding to the next. He knew he never was being told the truth but never demands the trurh. In Rowling’s social strata, someone at Harry’s station doesn’t get told the real truth and Harry knew that. Rowling is a champion for class restrictions and Potter is a perfect example of someone who “knows their place” in their social class and so only demands to know things or be included up to the limits of their class position. A Slytherin is more upper class and at least appreciates they are being used and works to find the best route through the larger plot. Malfoy is a Slytherin. He sees he is being used, works to both take advantage of the situation and set limits on his being a tool and in the end, is presented by Rowling as doing as well as Potter in spite of Malfoy being on the ‘losing’ side. The lesson of Rowling in the the story is the upper class never actually loses to the lower class.
Hogwarts house sorting is probably the worse pedagogic practice in all of popular culture. Even anime schools where kids fight in death matches are organized to accomplish something. How many potions does one have to drink to think it’s a good idea to tell children that people are either brave or smart or evil or random leftovers?
Great for selling merch though!
Do we know that? It’s been a while since I read GoF, but as far as I remember it was the level of danger that kept younger wizards from participating, because there was a decent possibility of death. So would the death of a bystander (or unwilling participant, rather) be out of bounds?
@67 – I thought Rowling values loyalty the highest? It’s all over her books, especially with the “Sneak” pimples to the traitor in book 5.
@72 — It’s certainly clear that she values loyalty, but in a video interview, when she was asked to say what came to mind without censoring herself or thinking too long, she was asked which character trait she valued most of all and said, “Courage” in the next breath. She was also asked what she hated most of all and said, “Bigotry.”
And really, as I said above, the greatest witches and wizards have the defining characteristics of ALL the houses. But there’s a reason why our heroes weren’t Hufflepuffs, and it’s because Rowling admires courage.
I get that when you think about it, sorting is kind of a horrible practice. And I would have loved to see more depth in the Slytherins (my sister is a proud Slytherin). But none of this means Harry ‘should’ have been in Slytherin given that based on what he values, and how he acts when push comes to shove – definitely aligns himself more with Gryffindor.
I do have a kind of headcanon that Rose Granger would also have fit in Slytherin pretty well, based on her portrayal in Cursed Child…
We have a really similar story when it comes to the fandom though – in this case it was my little sister who had the first book, and I was a senior in high school and I needed something to read for a road trip. I was skeptical, but hooked from the start and then made it through the next 3 in short order. :)
My favorite sorting test is this one: http://www.personalitylab.org/tests/bfi2_hogwarts.htm
It uses the “Big 5” psychological constructs and tells you what percentage of each house you have, rather than assigning you to a specific house. I am 62% Gryffindor, 77% Hufflepuff, 52% Slytherin, and 100% Ravenclaw. No surprise on the Ravenclaw– I’m earning a doctorate in educational research, which is probably about as Ravenclaw as you can get, though I’m doing it to improve education as a social good, which is where that Gryffindor streak probably comes in. (I’m happy I ranked that high on Hufflepuff!)
Harry’s Slytherin score presumably would be higher than mine, since the Sorting Hat thought he had so much potential. I’d say he’s not really steady enough to be primarily a Hufflepuff, and not enough of an abstract thinker to be considered a Ravenclaw.
One of my favorite moments was when Hermione remarked that Snape as Dark Arts teacher sounded a lot like Harry. I’ve always thought it a pity that Harry couldn’t manage to mend fences a bit with Snape. At the point that Harry got a glimpse of Snape’s memories in the Penseive, I’d have loved to have him stand up to Snape and say, “I’m not my dad, and what he did was wrong. And knowing what I know about you now… damn, I really need to learn Occulomancy, or we’re all toast. So let’s set our feud on hold, ok?”
Of course, that would have been a rather Slytherin thing to do…. ;)
@15: “IMO Harry is brave enough to be a Gryffindor, but for sheer, cold courage nobody in the series matches Snape.” I’d say “sheer, cold courage” is one of the best of the Slytherin attributes. (James Bond is probably a Slytherin.)
Launching sideways from this, which House would Harry have been in… on Dragaera? ;) (Hermione would most likely be a Hawk or Lyorn, and sorry Ron, but I think you’re a Teckla.)
I have a reason to be scared of Slytherin. No, they’re not all bad. But the common room and classrooms are in the dungeons; I am scared of deep, dark places; I hate snakes; the Malfoy family makes me vomit; and Crabbe deserved…you know.
I am a Ravenclaw with some Hufflepuff.
I am not brave enough to be in Gryffindor.
Ravenclaw is the best house, personality wise, but with the exception of Luna and Professor Flitwick, all my favorite characters are Gryffindor.
Claire “Forest Green Organ Geek” Dixon
Houses do tend to run in families, but choice counts most of all, and let’s face it, how do a bunch of eleven year olds know what the years will bring, or if they made the right choice? (Harry’s son does end up in Slytherin, if you’ve read the play, but he meets a decent, friendly Slytherin, young Scorpius Malfoy, on the train, while his father met a decent, friendly Gryffindor would-be…) Look at the Black brothers. Sirius is the family rebel – a black sheep? – so ends up in Gryffindor with his new-found friend James Potter, both of them unquestionably brave and definitely smart enough to be in Ravenclaw, but they are also bullies. It’s no point saying they only seem to have bullied Severus, and “he had it coming” – bullying is bullying. They outgrew that, but I don’t get the impression they ever felt remorse; fifteen years later, Sirius still claims Severus had it coming and they still hate each other, though working on the same side. Should they have been in Slytherin? Regulus Black was the good boy who followed his family’s wishes and was sorted into Slytherin, then joined the Deatheaters, to make his parents proud – and finally showed amazing courage and self sacrifice that should have placed him into Gryffindor, if that’s the definition. A bit like a kid from a Nazi family who joined a plot against Hitler, perhaps? But he was not in Slytherin because of his sneakier or ambitiou traits but because, as a Black, he felt he ought to be there. (I don’t think Sirius ever knew this, by the way; our heroes find out from Kreecher.)
Well, in this instance, you have recognize the inevitable fact, that the BEST heroes are often touched by EVIL. It’s sad to say, but sometimes, when combating ultimate evils and their avatars in both the real world and fiction genres, YOU HAVE TO BECOME A MONSTER TO FIGHT A MONSTER!!!
@78,
Scratching my head at that one. Care to offer an example?
@78
If you become a monster to fight a monster, remember that you’ve just become a monster that someone else is going to kill too. You become a hero to fight monsters, you become a monster in order to join the pack. If you become a monster to fight a monster then you might as well have just stayed home and done nothing, because at the end -win or lose- there is still a monster on the loose. The best heroes know that, and do not become or make trade with monsters.
@Keleborn: “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you” (Nietzsche, “Beyond Good and Evil”).
As I understand it, that means that sometimes you have to plumb the depths of the Freudian id to understand “evil” and how to defeat it. Remember Harry’s connexion with Voldemort; he was honestly scared that he, as the snake, attacked Mr. Weasley. But ultimately Harry chose not to become a monster. He told Voldemort to try to find some mercy in his soul. He also chose to disarm Voldemort rather than cast a Kiling Curse, and that was what saved him and his friends.
IMHO, that is the difference between Harry and Snape; Snape became a monster (his one saving grace was his love for Lily). But Harry, despite the temptation to go “dark,” didn’t. Not did Ron or Hermione (but Ron got kind of close in the last book). None of them gave into the monsters from the id
@81/jaimew,
Good clarification. And it is in her handling of how Harry met the challenge of Voldemort that I felt Rowling rose fully to the level of Tolkien. Kudos for her.
@Keleborn: Good point! I also adore “The Lord of the Rings” trilogy (the books – I have THOUGHTS about the films) and Samwise basically saves the day because he is only one of two characters who is not tempted by the One Ring. (The other is Faramir – and I HATED that scene in the movie when it showed him “kind of” being tempted by it. In the book, he said (sorry if I’m messing up this quote – I haven’t got the book to hand), “If I saw this thing on the road, I would not take it.”) Like Samwise, he was stronger than even Gandalf or Galadriel. They did not give into the tempation of power. And, in the end, a “humble hobbit” (Samwise) basically saved all of Middle-Earth.
Harry also didn’t want power or to become a monster. He just wanted a family (unlike many people, I actually *liked* the epilogue to the last book, because Harry finally got the family he wanted so much). In a lot of ways, Snape is like Harry’s dark id-fueled reflexion – Snape had a chance to have a family with Lily, and he messed it up. He also had a chance to have a family at Hogwarts – and maybe even with Harry as his sort-of, maybe should-have-been son, and he messed that up too. Harry, given his background, could have easily become as much of a “monster” as Snape (although I have to admit that I see Snape as a mostly sad and damaged character). But Harry *chose* not to be a monster and chose to be a decent person after “gazing into the abyss.” YMMV, but IMHO both “The Lord of the Rings” trilogy and the “Harry Potter” series ultimately focus on love and mercy as the way to redemption.
I can’t say that I disagree
Harry isn’t brave you say? Yet he took on Voldemort while injured and terrified in ‘Goblet’ – refused to let Voldemort’s Imperius Curse control him, and fought against him. Doing it anyway in the face of your fear’s generally agreed to be the highest form of courage.
Also, Harry knew Voldemort was going to kill him in DH, yet he still walked into the Forbidden Forest anyway. If that’s not bravery, I don’t know what the heck is.
@83/jaimew,
“Not if I found it by the highway … ” was that wonderful line from Faramir.
I don’t have thoughts about the movies. I only have feelings. From the Id. :)
I’ll resist the temptation to sing here the praises of Master Samwise. This is after all a Harry Potter thread. :)
@65 – Well, sorry for ruining your joke. :) (this smile I added is what I usually do or adding haha to emphasize that I’m humoring or joking, or making sure the comment is not sarcastic but rather nice – sometimes it is not easy being sure you’re joking just out of a written word instead of seing your face) But my explnation for missing the joke is that this Matt, is unknown to me, because as much as I’m a huge fan of the books, I didn’t see the movies (except the 1st) just because I’m a fan and don’t want it to ruin my own imagination of characters and some of the world.
@69 “The lesson of Rowling in the the story is the upper class never actually loses to the lower class.” – How did you get to this understanding?
@75 – Now that’s some imagination connecting Bond to the houses, but although cold courage consists of 2 words – cold and courage, one is more Slytherin while the other is more Gryffindor, so you should rather say that it is 50/50 Sly/Gry .So Bond if you want is cold and cunning – Sly, brave on the brink of suicide – Gry , loyal to M or her majesty – Huf , and is really knowledgable – Rav. So in Potterverse he would be the master of the 4 houses. :)
@85 – For a LOTR fan though and through to be willing to say someone ever fully leveled to Tolkien is kudos by itself.
@87,
Perhaps it is not so much that I am a fan of Tolkien, but rather that I am a fan of what Tolkien was so clearly a fan of.
And thank you.
@Keleborn: I certainly don’t want to de-rail this into a LOTR discussion! However, I’ve got to say that my mom, after watching the LOTR trilogy, said her second husband is a lot like Samwise; he’s steadfast, hard-working, loyal, and has a strong moral compass. I’ve compared my long-term male partner to Faramir more than once – he is brave, strong, competent, and pretty much free from tempation. While I know this may be self-serving, I’ve often seen myself as Eowyn. I DO have a temper, and I know how to fight when I have to. When I read “Return of the King” in English class when I was about 15, I was FURIOUS that Eowyn gave up fighting to become a “healer.” Now that I’m much older, and have re-read the trilogy about 20 times, I understand her decision. Eowyn is choosing to help rather than hurt people. She has already won glory as a fighter (as Faramir tells her) and in the new Middle-Earth, they need healers more than fighters.
I think that, in general, we like narratives that end in fights, but in real life that often doesn’t solve anything. In the last “Harry Potter” film, there was a moment when Ralph Fiennes looked genuinely sad that Harry hadn’t come to meet him yet and quietly said, “I thought he’d come.” (Shades of Harry telling Voldemort to find some mercy in him from the book.) I know I’m a bleeding-heart liberal, but at my core I don’t think that fighting it out (or assigning people into categories based on arbitrary qualities) really helps anything. IMHO, some of the greatest works of literature are based on the ideas of empathy and love
@89/jaimew,
In one of Kurt Vonnegut’s essays he suggested that authors were always killing off characters at the end of their novels, because it was the simplest way to tie up loose ends in the plot – and that it set a bad example for people to guide their actions in real life.
No doubt about it, managing real life conflict is difficult. In the abstract I like to take the high road, but once when I had a very noisy and difficult neighbor whom it was taking some time to evict, I found myself thinking “Die, Die, Die, Die, Die …” Just in case, you know, prayer actually works.
By the way, I don’t aspire to be Keleborn, who in his brief appearance was a bit of a jerk. But I figured choosing any other name from Tolkien would be hubris. You happened to name the two characters I most strongly relate to, Faramir and Sam, although of course many others are also admirable and enjoyable in their own ways.
Eowyn was awesome, of course. I could say that it must be difficult to find good female characters to relate to (in general), but then the same is pretty much true for male characters as well. Fame, money, and power – who needs them?
“Pay no attention to Caesar. He hasn’t the slightest idea what’s really going on.” (Kurt Vonnegut/Cat’s Cradle)
I was sorted into Slytherin, so I don’t have a problem with the idea that Harry may have belonged there… but. When he walks into the dark forest, knowing that he is going to die (for all of his friends – not for himself) that is a really Gryffindor thing to do. I would argue that Snape should have been a Gryffindor too (how that would have changed the story!) as Dumbledore said, I think we sort them into their houses too soon.
I really enjoyed this article, but I must take issue with Harry’s characterization at some points, specifically his Hero Complex. It is true that whenever Harry sees a situation that he thinks is going south, he will let nothing get in his way in trying to fix it. However, the idea that he does this because he has an obsession with being the Hero is fallacious. Harry does not run bull-headed into scenarios because he wants people to recognize him as a Hero, he does so because he cannot stand bad situations going ignored. Think of times when Harry was recognized for his actions. At the end of Book 1 he is excited because everyone’s ok and Gryffindor won, not because of how people view him. End of Book 2, he’s happy about the healed students, and Ginny. There’s no mention of him craving the attention. In Book 5 he constantly downplays his accomplishments out of a genuine belief that he doesn’t deserve the praise. And in Book 6 when everyone thinks he’s a hero, he finds the spotlight more annoying than anything else. Someone with a true Hero Complex would seek out situations where they could be a hero, because they enjoy the perception of being one. Harry only does what he thinks is right.
Also, I’m unsure how you question the courage of someone who literally walked to his death.
In sf terms, the Sorting Hat would be an AI. Recent examinations of AI sorting resumes into desirable and not find that AIs tend to amplify social prejudices. SH would probably reflect and even magnify the prejudices of its creator. One of the side effects of relying on this mechanism is that the differences between the houses would be magnified, especially since the Sorting Hat seems to have been granted infallibility by the wizarding community, or at least by the students of Hogwarts.
As an aside, dividing a school into four houses is fairly common: at least two New Haven high schools do so, so does the high school in Hamden, Connecticut, and so did a high school in St Lucia which a friend attended.
I disagree with your point that his “Courage is Questionable”
He certainly acts impulsively throughout the series, but he also makes calculated decision which have significant risk to himself.
One great example is in The Deathly Hallows after he sees Snape’s memories and realizes he is a horcrux and will have to die. He then calmly and determinedly walks to, what he believes to be, his own death. I’d say that is pretty courageous and not impulsive at all.
YES. THANK YOU. I absolutely HATE it when people just automatically assume that they’re a Gryffindor just because its the favored house in the series. Whenever they find out that I am a Slytherin, people always seem to start looking down on me in an, “Oh, you’re one of THOSE…” manner. I agree that Harry would have made a much better Slytherin. GryffinDORKS are totally overrated. Then again, I am a bit prejudice against the other houses. I would rather be a Slytherin any day. And it’s not like the other houses are as good two shoes as they pretend to be. They’ve had they’re fair share of dark wizards too they’re just to afraid of being judged to admit it. Not every Slytherin is a bad apple. Some of us, like you and I, I believe, are golden apples, amazing and awesome.
Tell me something, I’m just curious, would you still call them GryffinDORKS if you found yourself being chosen a Gryffindor yourself it those online tests? I mean, it’s good to like where you got housed, but to degrate everyone else just because you’re there… Tell me how that looks like? I wouldn’t call other houses names, just because I’m not in them
Just chiming in that I love the Faramir/Sam/LOTR discussions :) Faramir is still under serious consideration as a possible name for any future male children, lol.
I’m also a huge Eowyn fan (and I completely get what you are talking about with her transition to healer and what that really represents). Although Nienna might actually be my favorite of all Tokien’s female characters, or at least the concept she represents.
Nienna, hhmm remind me who that is?
She is a character in the Silmarillion – Valar of pity and mourning and turning sorrow to strength/understanding/wisdom. She doesn’t get a lot of screen time, but was a teacher of Gandalf when he was in Valinor.
I also read an interesting essay where Faramir potentially (indirectly) invokes her as well (which comes full circle as he was in some ways a student of Gandalf).
That’s amazing, what article was that? By Christopher?
Nienna yes it starts to sound familiar, and she was married to whom? So, why her out of all the Valar?
Reminiscent of Nienna, there is a nice line from Franco Zeffirelli’s Jesus of Nazareth where Jesus says “Learn to cry.”
Nienna is best known for doing Joni Mitchell covers Saturday nights at the Valimar Cafe
She wasn’t married to any of the Valar – she was alone.
The article was just a blog post by a fan on tumblr:
http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/80354104175/nienna-she-who-weeps
The main throughline is that Nienna taught Gandalf, who taught Faramir, and one of Faramir’s lines specifically mentions some of Nienna’s main attributes. It’s an indirect connection but an interesting musing on her philosophy and how it disseminated out and how Faramir may have been indirectly guided by her philosophy. As for why her, in part because the ideas of redemptive suffering, how sorrow can turn to beauty, and the idea that things like mercy/pity are really a sign of a quiet strength are things I’m often trying to think about/work into my life.
@102,
My analyst told me
That I was right out of my head
But I said Doctor
I think that it’s you instead.
@103/LisaMarie,
I once saw an article in Psychology Today that claimed that those with the highest self-esteem blame other people whenever anything goes wrong. Go figure! :)
@11
Actually Umbridge gave an informer Willy Widdershins a pardon for a misuse of muggle artifacts that caused trouble, Sent dementors after Harry. offered Fletcher not to prosecute him if he gave her Slytherin’s locket. Is a Quisling and wrote a bunch of anti-werewolf and anti-centaur legislation which caused Lupin trouble getting a job may have aided Fenrir in recruiting them for voldemort and also was annoyed when Dumbledore replaced Trelawney with Firenze. The Headmaster’s tower wouldn’t allow her in. She is not as bad as Voldemort probably only because of never again which made prosecuting werewolves and centaurs difficult. She also was behind the pamphlets in Deathly Hallows and used Mad Eye’s eye to spy on her workers.
Harry should NOT have been Slytherin. The sorting hat made the right choice. Harry never broke the rules for self gain. You even said yourself he broke into the chamber of secrets to SAVE GINNY. It doesn’t matter that he broke the rules, what matters is the REASON WHY. He was constantly doing everything, for everyone else. He would have taken his own life to save the world. Each house has their traits yes but it’s also about their characteristics; who they are and WHY they do what they do. Ron is a scaredy cat… you’d think… but is he really?? No. He voluntarily agreed to sacrifice himself in a game of chess, not knowing if he would live, so that Harry and Hermione could try and stop a powerful wizard from doing something evil. He went with Harry to the Forbidden Forest, and faced giant-ass spiders. Tiny little spiders scare the crap out of him and he faced 15 feet tall Acromantulas to find information that could help save Hagrid. Ron willingly put himself up to be killed by someone he thought was trying to kill his best friend?
‘No, Harry!’ Hermione gasped in a petrified whisper; Ron, however, spoke to Black.
‘If you want to kill Harry, you’ll have to kill us, too!’ he said fiercely, though the effort of standing up had drained him of still more colour, and he swayed slightly as he spoke.
A 13 year old kid saying that to a supposed mass-murderer while being severely injured.
He was tormented when Harry’s name came out of the Goblet. He was pushed away again. Nothing he could ever do could compare to that. Yet, he still managed to overcome it. He still managed to fight his own self to be there for his best friend and support him. He went to the Ministry of Magic with and part of the DA, and fought against Death Eaters, some of which were quite powerful. Any way, this is about Harry lol. I got a bit side tracked. A person isn’t always who you think they are. Just the fact of Harry being related to and having a part of he who shall not be named within him, isn’t reason enough for him to be slytherin. Obviously. He is NOTHING like he who shall not be named, nor Draco.