Greetings, intrepid rereaders, and welcome back to the lovely besieged city of Kholinar! Home of secretive humans, creepy Cultists, creepier Unmade, and the occasional Voidbringer! Oh, yeah. This is the happening place to be, I tell you. This week, Our Heroes set out on another fact-finding mission, because So Much Is Not Known.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There’s no specific Cosmere discussion this week, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
AA: Also, because the grammar is driving me crazy, I’m starting a notation convention, at least for myself. When I’m referring to the Sibling, the pronoun will be capitalized: They, Their, Them. I’ve got to have some way to distinguish between “They, the Sibling” and “they, the Knights Radiant” or “they, the various spren.” Okay? Thanks.
Also also, Lyndsey is, regrettably, unable to join us this week. It’s a pity; she’s sure to have had some good stuff to say about the fashion!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Kholinar
WHEN: 1174.1.10.5 (two days after Chapter 68)
Kaladin experiments with Stormlight to determine what will draw the Voidbringers, and determines that Lashing a rock is out of the question. The team returns to the tailor’s shop to change their clothing, and Shallan sets their disguises to match. The men are off to a party, which makes Kaladin no end of grumpy; he ducks out of the party gig and ends up meeting the Wall Guard.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Free Meal, No Strings
“I’d love to hear it. Free meal, no strings. We won’t press you into service. I give my oath.”
AA: I don’t know that there’s anything profound to say about this, other than that free anything with no strings is pretty hard to believe. It turns out to be sort of true: They don’t demand anything, but what he sees draws him irresistibly in, just because Kaladin is Kaladin. But that’s next week. This week is just promises.
Heralds
AA: Our sole Herald this week is Talenel, the Soldier, patron of the Stonewards, Herald of War. “Soldier” is probably plenty of reason for him to represent this chapter, since it’s all about Kaladin as bodyguard, culminating in his traipsing off for lunch with the Wall Guard.
Icon
Banner and Spears, for our boy Kaladin.
Epigraph
The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower’s functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists.
—From drawer 1-1, second zircon
AA: These epigraphs are the primary source of information, so far, on what Urithiru was like when it was fully functional. Recalling that the previous sentence in this Elsecaller’s record was about what had caused the Sibling’s withdrawal, this strongly implies that Their absence is directly affecting the living conditions. (Also, that the Radiants knew the Sibling was involved in the tower’s functioning, and how it worked.) Plants that thrived (where they really shouldn’t) are wilting, and the air is cooling noticeably to match the elevation of the city. On the other hand, the air pressure isn’t as low as it ought to be, this high in the mountains—which handily answers one of the big reader complaints from the end of Words of Radiance as well as from the early-release discussions. It did seem odd that no one was noticing the thinner air, but apparently, that’s because it isn’t much thinner. It does, of course, leave us wondering just how these few functions are being maintained.
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Oathbringer
(Speculation: Would it be possible that the Sibling somehow persuaded some windspren to maintain the atmospheric pressure and air circulation indefinitely? And would it also be windspren keeping the wells functional, or would that be different spren? Or am I completely out to lunch?)
AP: I’m not sure there are windspren in particular maintaining pressure, because I think that would be noticed. But then again, they haven’t really explored Urithiru very thoroughly, and they don’t know what they are looking for. My guess is some precursor to fabrials. I don’t think the radiants would need to trap spren to help them power the city; instead there was some mutual benefit to them doing so. So I agree about spren helping out to power Urithiru, but I think it extends beyond windspren.
AA: My thought was that the Sibling alone powered Urithiru when it was at peak functioning, but They knew They were being affected by something, and didn’t want to let the city completely power down while people were still trying to live there. To protect the humans, perhaps They enlisted the aid of the windspren, and/or various other spren, to at least keep some of the tower’s functions in place. Not sure that makes much sense, but the fact is that, even after hundreds of years, some of the critical needs of humans are still being met, and no one quite knows how.
Thematic Thoughts
AA: This week centers on the infiltration of Kholinar, as the team tries to balance the urgency of their mission with the need to gather information before they act. One aspect of that is testing their uses of Stormlight, to see what will draw the screaming spren and what won’t.
Kaladin drew in a small amount of Stormlight and stoked the tempest within.
…
… kneeling to infuse a small stone. He Lashed it upward just enough to make it tremble, but not enough to send it zipping into the air.
The eerie screams came soon after.
…
“I can hold Stormlight as long as I want without drawing attention,” Kaladin said. “The moment I Lash something, they come screaming.”
“And yet,” Adolin said, glancing at Shallan, “the disguises draw no attention.”
“Pattern says we’re quieter than him,” Shallan said, thumbing toward Kaladin.
AA: First off, it makes me happy to see that they’re proactively testing—and this time, doing it as a coordinated plan, rather than Shallan’s earlier solo effort back in Chapter 63. Second, I love learning about their results, and speculating along with them as to why things are working as they are.
Holding Stormlight: no problem.
Lightweaving, on herself or others, attached to a person or a gemstone: no problem.
Lashing, even a tiny bit: PROBLEM.
“Pattern says we’re quieter than him.” Does that mean Shallan is quieter than Kaladin, or that Lightweaving is quieter than Lashing? What would have happened if Kaladin had lashed himself instead of the rock? Would they have “heard” that? So many questions.
Oh, also, there’s this:
Kaladin had tested summoning her as a Blade earlier, and that hadn’t drawn the screamers, so he felt well-armed.
AA: So summoning a live Blade, at least, doesn’t trigger them. Have Adolin and Elhokar tested summoning their dead blades? I don’t recall. But they aren’t really fabrials, and they don’t activate any Surges, so I’d bet they’re okay.
There was a separate tent for people who were lighteyed but not landowners. Privileged, but not good enough to get in the doors to the actual party. In his role as a lighteyed bodyguard, that would be the place for Kaladin—but for some reason the thought of going in there made him feel sick.
AA: Is there Something Going On, or is this just more of Kaladin’s prejudice against lighteyes? Is it just Kaladin’s “light/dark eyes issue”—he hates lighteyes in general so much that the thought of being one, and acknowledging it, makes him sick? Do we ever get more on this?
AP: I do think it is his prejudice showing through here. However, I wouldn’t dismiss it as his “issue.” He has very good reason for mistrust, based on his history. The caste system is deeply ingrained in Alethkar, and moving from one to another would be extremely uncomfortable. We only see a very few characters who are comfortable across class lines, and they are mainly soldiers.
AA: Personally, I think Kaladin takes the light/darkeyes division to an extreme in many cases, especially for a guy that was pretty close to the top of the darkeyes hierarchy. Then again, maybe for someone down at the sixth nahn, pretty much everyone was higher on the scale than they were, so maybe the eye color stratification is a little less noticeable. Kaladin was born high enough on the scale that the only people above him were first-nahn darkeyes… and all lighteyes. Maybe that’s part of why it’s more of an issue for him than for those farther down the scale? (Come to think of it, the same applies to Moash. He was born second nahn, too.)
I can understand that, having spent his life being highly aware of the line between light and dark eyes, and then having that rammed down his throat in very painful ways, it could be difficult to suddenly be the thing you’ve spent the last seven or eight years hating. My question was intended more to distinguish between “his personal feelings” and “something magicky” at the root of his feeling sick about going to the lower-lighteyes party.
AP: Oh, I definitely don’t think it’s something magical. I think it’s social conditioning. And I think the divisions are pretty extreme. It’s a caste system in which, in all but very rare instances (becoming a shardbearer), it’s impossible to change caste. That’s going to be uncomfortable to navigate. I don’t think his reactions are particularly extreme, because he had a false sense of security at second nahn, only to have it all snatched away.
Then he looked at Kaladin’s forehead and frowned.
Kaladin raised his hands to the brands there, which he could feel. But Shallan had put an illusion over those. Hadn’t she?
…
The soldiers started visibly. Yes, they could see the brands. Shallan’s illusion had worn off for some reason?
AA: Why did Shallan’s illusion fail to hold? Did Kaladin subconsciously drain the gemstone it was attached to? That’s the kind of thing that Sanderson almost always mentions, however casually the character does it, so I don’t think that’s it. Is he so resistant to change that even an illusion can’t stick to him if he doesn’t want it?
I sure seem to have a lot of questions this week…
AP: I wondered this as well. Could it be proximity? Did he get too far away from Shallan? When she set the illusion, she knew where they were going for the party. Did she unconsciously set a radius on the illusion that required less stormlight, and, when Kaladin unexpectedly goes wandering, it doesn’t hold?
Stories & Songs
The Voidbringer lingered, surrounded by dark energy, until horns nearby announced the Wall Guard approaching. The creature finally shot back into the air. People who had been hiding scuttled away, looking relieved to have escaped with their lives.
AA: This brief interaction stirs up all sorts of thoughts—primarily, pity for a people who live with this kind of thing hanging over their heads, quite literally, with no warning. The humans still technically control the city, and the Voidbringer leaves when the Wall Guard approaches. Even so, it’s clear that the flying Fused do pretty much whatever they want. I think the most pitiful part of the whole thing is the way people just seem to accept this as the new normal. It’s what humans do—we adapt—but it makes me sad to see people listlessly adapting to being terrorized.
In that spirit, I rather enjoyed watching the frustration of the Fused who couldn’t find the Surgebinding that drew the screamerspren. Neener neener.
AP: It’s really clear to me that the Fused could take the city if they wanted to. They just aren’t ready yet. And that would be terrifying to live with as well.
Relationships & Romances
“Your city is practically burning. What should you do? Throw a party, obviously.”
AA: I can’t remember the context, but I recall either reading or watching a fictional scene where the kingdom is starving, but they’re having a party in the palace; the king explains to the prince(ss) that in times like these, the king laughs loudest, and eats least, in order to keep the people hopeful. (Or something like that. Can anyone tell me what this is from?) I’d like to say this is what’s happening here, although with the Kholinar lighteyes, I suspect that it’s more trying to fool themselves into some kind of normality. Like most people do, in fact.
“Hey Skar,” Drehy said. “You ever go out drinking, even when at war?”
“Sure,” Skar said. “And back in my village, we’d have a dance in the stormshelter twice a month, even while boys were off fighting in border skirmishes.”
“It’s not the same,” Kaladin said. “You taking their side?”
“Are there sides?” Drehy asked.
AA: Oh, the burn. Tsssss…! Sure, I understand the irritation, but Kaladin does let his prejudice against lighteyes exaggerate his reactions. And I’m strongly with Drehy here: In a time like this, when you’ve got an actual nasty powerful enemy out there, you need to stop sniping at your own people. Especially, you need to stop griping about someone else’s activities when they aren’t doing anything all that different from what your friends do, and which you have no problem with if your friends are doing it.
AP: I agree that all the humans need to learn to work together. But in a city that is actually starving, the lighteyes deserve some degree of scorn for hoarding resources. I think that some influence of the Heart of the Revel is in play here. Yes, they want to forget the situation, and luckily there is an Unmade in the city willing to help them do exactly that! Even though it’s centered on the platform, I expect the influence goes well beyond into the city.
AA: The area in which I fully agree with Kaladin is this: Given that people are starving for lack of resources, it is immoral for the lighteyes to take more food than they need so they can party like nothing is wrong. We don’t know for sure that’s what’s happening, though if Skar’s rumors (quoted below) are true, they certainly have better food at the parties than most people normally get, and the fact that they have food to party with at all is a bit dodgy. If it’s just a bunch of people getting together for moral support, great; if it’s for ignoring the problems… meh; if it’s gluttonous consumption of food, it’s totally wrong. But you’re right, Aubree; If it’s that last, it probably is at least affected by the presence of the Unmade. It’s not much of an excuse.
“You look like you tripped and fell into a bucket of blue paint,” Kaladin said, “then tried to dry off with a handful of parched grass.”
“And you look like what the storm leaves behind,” Adolin said, passing by and patting Kaladin on the shoulder. “We like you anyway. Every boy has a favorite stick he found out in the yard after the rains.”
AA: Ouch. I think you deserved that, Kal… We’ve talked about Shallan’s humor a lot, and Adolin’s as well. This time it’s Kaladin trying to be funny, but not trying very hard, because everyone knows that he’s sneering at Adolin’s fashionista schtick. I’m not sure I think Adolin’s rejoinder is terribly funny, but he did manage to turn it to a joke rather than returning Kaladin’s sneer, so good on him. (You know, Kaladin is really being a pain today!)
AP: I want to point out that Adolin just called him a stick in the mud. Which is exactly what he is being.
Adolin stepped over to Skar and Drehy, clasping hands with each of them in turn. “You two looking forward to tonight?”
“Depends on how the food is in the darkeyed tent, sir,” Skar said.
“Swipe me something from the inner party,” Drehy said. “I hear they’ve got storming good pastries at those fancy lighteyes parties.”
“Sure. You need anything, Skar?”
“The head of my enemy, fashioned into a tankard for drinking,” Skar said. “Barring that, I’ll take a pastry or seven.”
“I’ll see what I can do. Keep your ears open for any good taverns that are still open. We can go out tomorrow.” He strode past Kaladin and tied on a side sword.
Kaladin frowned, looking to him, then to his bridgemen, then back at Adolin. “What?”
“What what?” Adolin asked.
“You’re going to go out drinking with bridgemen?” Kaladin said.
“Sure,” Adolin said. “Skar, Drehy, and I go way back.”
“We spent some time keeping His Highness from falling into chasms,” Skar said. “He repaid us with a bit of wine and good conversation.”
AA: Okay, I’ll be sappy here… because it just makes me happy to see the relationship between these three. (Also, can I giggle about Skar the Barbarian?) They function just fine in society as it is, and it makes not the least obstruction to a fast friendship and mutual respect. The fact that Kaladin seems categorically unable to comprehend “mutual respect” between third dahn and sixth nahn (or whatever bridgemen-turned-bodyguards are) is a sad reflection of his own issues.
AP: I’m not on board with everything being “just fine” because they can go out drinking together. The way the Alethi society is set up is a significant obstruction to this type of friendship, and this is notable for being rare. There is battlefield camaraderie and respect here that doesn’t typically exist for most other darkeyes/lighteyes relationships. I’m glad that Adolin is called out as not holding the same prejudices as most other lighteyes, but it’s far from common.
AA: Mmmm… I’m not a big fan of “forced leveling.” Now, before this comes out wrong, I’m not a big fan of this kind of social stratification, either: The idea that you’re stuck where you’re born is problematic at best. It should be noted that there are ways, especially for darkeyes, to move up the scale, and even for a family to move from nahn to dahn, but there is only one way we know of for an individual to change their eye color: spren bonding. Less rare now than it was, by a small margin, it’s obviously not available to most darkeyes.
The thing I appreciate about these guys is that they are willing to function, on a daily basis, in the world as it is. Would they like things to change? Sure, I think all three of them would, but they don’t have to spend all their time hating other people for it. I think there’s a LOT to be said for contentment (which is not the same as complacency, by the way) that is overlooked IRL as well as in fiction. These are the guys who don’t let envy of the other guy’s Stuff destroy their lives; they’ve got enough to be content, and don’t care if other people have more. Or, reversing for Adolin, he doesn’t let greed or arrogance stop him from treating everyone on their own merits, regardless of their position or their Stuff.
AP: I disagree here. I don’t think we are supposed to like the Alethi society as portrayed in the books, because it is deeply flawed. And in general, when there is an oppressive system, we expect characters to be unhappy with the oppressiveness. The fact that a few individuals can form a bond over having saved one another’s lives doesn’t mean it’s not a bad system, and doesn’t mean that they are happy with the way things are. In fact, Skar’s criticism of the lighteyes party shows that he is NOT content with the system, and I agree that he shouldn’t be. I don’t think contentment is a virtue here. It’s a sign that they (lighteyes, higher nahn darkeyes) are willing to overlook the really awful treatment of other humans because they have enough. This is a major sign of Adolin’s privilege. He’s a nice dude, but being a nice dude with a few darkeyes friends doesn’t absolve him of his complicity in perpetuating the system. I do think he has massive potential as an agent of change in Alethkar by virtue of his relationships with the former Bridgeman. He’s starting to see the cracks in the system, and his arc, based on his ability to be well liked and build relationships could absolutely make him a thought leader in changing things for the better.
AA: Oh, I’m not saying the Alethi caste system is good, at all; any enforced social structure that determines your position based on something you can’t choose or change (like your skin or eye color) is inherently flawed. And even though you can move up (or down!) within either the nahn or dahn structure, and by marriage or spren you can (on rare occasions) cross the border between structures, I’m not a fan of that kind of stratification. I’m not of fan of being complacent within that structure, either, when there are people who are actively suffering because of it. (See: the poor people being pushed out of the food lines.)
What I am a fan of is people who know how to be content (not complacent, content) when they have enough—people who are not driven by envy to demand that someone else give them things—and especially people who are able to see past the strata and respect another human being because of his character, not because of what he has or doesn’t have. Skar and Drehy know that, despite thirteen levels between them, Adolin is simply a good man who treats them like the good men they are, and they return the honor. Kaladin is still struggling with that.
“Maybe you should let me teach you how to use a side sword. You’re pretending to be head of our bodyguards tonight, and you’re lighteyed today. It looks strange for you to walk around without a side sword.”
“Maybe I’m one of those punchy guys.”
Adolin stopped in place and grinned at Kaladin. “Did you just say ‘punchy guys’?”
“You know, ardents who train to fight unarmed.”
“Hand to hand?”
“Hand to hand.”
“Right,” Adolin said. “Or ‘punchy guys,’ as everyone calls them.”
Kaladin met his eyes, then found himself grinning back. “It’s the academic term.”
“Sure. Like swordy fellows. Or spearish chaps.”
“I once knew a real axalacious bloke,” Kaladin said. “He was great at psychological fights.”
“Psychological fights?”
“He could really get inside someone’s head.”
Adolin frowned as they walked. “Get inside… Oh!” Adolin chuckled, slapping Kaladin on the back. “You talk like a girl sometimes. Um… I mean that as a compliment.”
“Thanks?”
AA: I don’t even have anything to say about this. I just wanted to quote it all. Because these two are… bizarrely priceless. Or perhaps pricelessly bizarre. Oy.
It was strange to look at Adolin in that bright outfit, stylish and glittering with golden thread, and hear him speak real battle sense.
When I was imprisoned for daring to accuse Amaram, he was the only lighteyes who stood up for me.
Adolin Kholin was simply a good person. Powder-blue clothing and all. You couldn’t hate a man like him; storms, you kind of had to like him.
AA: Okay, yes, it’s me going all mushy about this unlikely friendship as well. Kaladin tries so hard to resent Adolin. I mean, he actively tries sometimes! And in the end, he just can’t. I think it goes back to Adolin’s rare ability to simply not care about artificial boundaries; he treats everyone like a human being. (I was going to say “except Sadeas” but… nope. He got treated like a human being too. Just… like the nasty piece of work he was.)
Bruised & Broken
Adolin could get away with things like that. As he listened, Kaladin found himself feeling ashamed of his earlier attitude. The truth was, he was feeling pretty good these days. Yes, there was a war, and yes, the city was seriously stressed—but ever since he’d found his parents alive and well, he’d been feeling better.
That wasn’t so uncommon a feeling for him. He felt good lots of days. Trouble was, on the bad days, that was hard to remember. At those times, for some reason, he felt like he had always been in darkness, and always would be.
Why was it so hard to remember? Did he have to keep slipping back down? Why couldn’t he stay up here in the sunlight, where everyone else lived?
AA: Okay, okay. You’re right. Kaladin is unreasonable, but depression can do that to a person. I wish none of us knew what Kaladin was talking about… but anyone who’s lived with it knows exactly how that feels. I wonder… will he ever break free? What will it take?
AP: I thought this description of depression was so on point. When you have a bad day it seems like it will never ever be better. What makes me really sad about depictions of mental illness in the Stormlight Archive is that there is no medical treatment. We have so many options in our world to try to help people suffering from depression that just aren’t available to Kaladin & co. To me, the lack of treatment is almost more concerning than the disease. Kaladin has no way to stabilize his mood so that he can have more good days and fewer bad ones.
AA: It really is heartbreaking. Paige and I were speculating the other day: Do you suppose that in the days of the Radiants’ strength, there might have been a group within the Edgedancers or the Truthwatchers that specialized in mental health? We know that Stormlight Healing only affects the Physical, and then only to the extent that the Cognitive will allow. I still think it’s reasonable that there would have been those who chose to focus on emotional and mental healing, just using different tools.
AP: I sincerely hope that there are some in-world resources available for our characters. I’d be really dissatisfied if the answer ends up that “magic cures depression.”
Places & Peoples
It was like she was a storming surgeon, the way she lifted his arm and felt at his waist, muttering to herself. Kaladin had seen his father give physicals that were less invasive.
AA: Bahahaha! This cracks me up. In a setting like this, your tailor probably does know more about you than your doctor.
AP: I mean, it’s true tho.
“I thought that straight coats were still the style,” Adolin said. “I have a folio out of Liafor.”
“Those aren’t up to date,” Yokska said. “I was in Liafor last Midpeace, and they’re moving away from military styles. But they made those folios to sell uniforms at the Shattered Plains.”
“Storms! I had no idea how unfashionable I was being.”
AA: Oh noes!! All the shock and dismay! Poor Adolin was being unfashionable!! This is just so fun on all levels. The sneaky Liaforans know their marketing, all right.
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A Hero Born
I did find it interesting that a mere six months ago, Yokska had traveled to Liafor. We haven’t really heard a lot about world travel, except for Rysn and Vstim, though of course it happens. It just stuck out to me that a Kholinar tailor would travel clear across the continent for her business. Then again, she’s Thaylen, and they do tend to travel more, it seems.
Majestic Motivations
“All right,” Elhokar said as they drew near. “Adolin and I will feel out the lighteyes for potential allies. Bridgemen, chat with those in the darkeyed guard tent, and see if you can discover anything about the Cult of Moments, or other oddities in the city.”
“Got it, Your Majesty,” Drehy said.
“Captain,” he said to Kaladin, “you’ll go to the lighteyed guard tent. See if you can—”
“—find out anything about this Highmarshal Azure person,” Kaladin said. “From the Wall Guard.”
“Yes. We will plan to stay relatively late, as intoxicated party guests might share more than sober ones.”
AA: He’s thinking pretty clearly here, giving directions, explaining things that others might not register, reviewing the plan so everyone is on the same page. Poor boy—he’s trying so hard, and he is making progress…
AP: Progress, yes, but it’s notable that Kaladin immediately disregards orders and goes wandering without telling his commanding officer about his plans. Kaladin doesn’t totally respect Elhokar as a leader yet.
AA: That really bugged me. I mean, story-wise, he makes better progress by accidentally running into the Wall Guard than he (likely) would have by going to the lighteyes’ tent, but I was annoyed by his unilateral decision to deviate from the plan. Some will say that Elhokar hasn’t yet earned authority, but Kaladin isn’t helping any.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
The spren dispersed, vanishing as emotion spren often did.
AA: We’ve seen this happen: Shamespren or painspren or whatever pop into existence, and then just dissipate when the strength of the emotion has passed. Do spren associated with physical phenomena always move away visibly? I know we see windspren come and go, but I can’t think of any others whose arrival and departure are actually described for us. Anyone??
Onward ho! Join us in the comments, and be sure to come back next week as Kaladin eats stew with the Wall Guard and meets the mysterious Highmarshal Azure.
Alice is having fun making drama props and doll sweaters, or at least she hopes to be having fun once she works up the courage to tackle said props and sweaters. Also, if anyone is at Emerald City Comic Con today, keep your eyes open for a Wetlander sighting?
Aubree is preparing for the next highstorm by upgrading her WiFi router. Service in caves is notoriously spotty.
In regards to Shallan’s illusion not staying on Kaladin, Brandon gave an odd RAFO to the question:
I’m guessing he means he will come back to it but it’s not a big deal? Honestly, not sure how to take his response. Any guesses?
We’ve seen before that things that are more invested are harder to further invest. That’s why a certain somebody’s bracelets were so hard to touch. Maybe because Kaladin is a 3 oath Knight the illusion just didn’t have the sticking power.
Alternative out there theory: the shash rune is inherently magical and burned off the illusion.
Regarding the emergency systems still functioning in Urithiru, I’m sure there are spren involved the same way there are spren involved with the Oathgates. Heck functioning Oathgates probably are one of the emergency systems. They would have wanted to have a redundancy in place for times when the sibling (who presumably fully powers the place normally) had other commitments.
@2 no, the shash brand isn’t magic, how would amaran know that? I think it goes all the way back to kal’s issues, where his healing wouldn’t take the scars away. it is so part of his idenity that….even shallan’s disguises just slip off of him
Maybe Kaladin’s depression is like his brands, part of his identity. If that ever changes stormlight might be able to cure him of it. But I agree, magicly cured depression is pretty unsatisfying.
I loved this chapter, but mostly for the dialogue between Kaladin and Adolin about the punchy guys. Had me laughing until I had tears!
I think after some of Shallan’s fails at investigating, it was refreshing to see them working together at last!
I love the description of Kaladin’s depression here because it’s so extraordinarily accurate. For many people, like me, depression doesn’t mean constant sadness or despair. It means having those feelings as a background state, sometimes pulling free of them for times of joy but always o a precipice, one misfortune or harmful thought away from slipping back into tears and dull despair. For Kaladin, there’s also the feeling that “everyone else” figuratively lives in the light — he knows others have suffered their own mental traumas, but doesn’t think anyone experiences exactly what he does. That’s an important part of the mental health care that our world has and Roshar seems to lack — learning that you’re not alone.
A magical cure for depression in a book might annoy me, because I want it for myself. But I also balk at the notion of depression being an unchangeable part of one’s identity to a greater extent than physical disabilities. As I’ve said, my vision impairment is an essemtial lifelong part of who I am how I experience the world, its absence desirable but unimaginable; by contrast, depression is a thing that happened to me in adulthood, and whilenit may neber be curable, I reduce it as well as I can and refuse to consider it an essential part of who I am. Then again, Kaladin’s depression has been lifelong to some extent, induced partly by seasonal affective disorder every Weeping, so he may see it differently.
In Edgedanger, we saw that some kinds of brain/mental disabilities can be magically cured, as the Stump unintentionally did. (This was probably discussed in the Edgedancer Reread, but I don’t have time to look for it now). Some mental illnesses may be different.
At this point, I wondered if Shallan actually hadn’t disguised his brand for some reason of her her own.
I always get tense when characters disobey orders od plans like this. In books, it seems to usually have Bad Consequences.
I will note that we know Kaladin didn’t just accidentally consume the illusion sphere’s stormlight. At the end of the next chapter, he notices it is still infused.
@3 John, Regarding the oathgates being an “emergency system”: those still require a Radiant to activate them and stormlight to power them. The pressure and well “emergency systems” seem to work passively. I wouldn’t characterize them together.
I think the scene with the king you remember is the one from “The Horse and His Boy”:
So first thoughts:
Interesting ideas regarding the Sibling. I am not sure where I stand on things yet, but its always great to hear ideas!
I do wonder if the reason Shallan’s lightweaving doesn’t attract the screamers because she uses less stormlight, or if she has a copper cloud like effect with her lightweaving.
I do think the closer you are to the “dividing line” in a social structure, the more apparent it can be. Also across our history, people who stand near that line are more likely to be able to effect change in said social structure. So Kaladin is definitely in a very important position in changing the Alethi social structure and has a lot of responsibility to be a positive change in the world.
I believe Kaladin’s personal Identity (with a capital on purpose) broke through the illusion which is why it wouldn’t hold. It is interesting that came up in this situation while he felt conflicted regarding his place in the Alethi structure, while it did not when they entered the city.
I like how this scene fairly illustrates the situation and what our main characters are doing to deal with it. The fused are a continual threat so surgebinding on Kaladin’s, and by extension his squires part is heavily limited. Only Shallan’s illusions work despite the screamers. A parshmen army is well on its way and is laying siege to the city so escape through both mundane as well as supernatural means will soon be impossible, if it isn’t already. The palace is locked down by the Cult of the Moments so the only way to investigate the Oathgate or Gavinor is to find out more information about the Cult which Shallan is going to do. Elhokar and Adolin are drumming support up from the nobles, and Kaladin is (unable to be disguised) investigating the wall guard. So all in all, makes sense to me.
As to seeing spren coming, both Eshonai and Rock see them come before mundane people can notice their presence. I believe from what we see in Shadesmar, spren are attracted to something (an emotion, etc) and a portion of their body becomes visible on the physical realm. Once the stimulus is gone, they fade from view, but I do not believe they necessarily leave immediately unless they sense the stimulus elsewhere.
I love this chapter.
I always though Adolin’s blue powdered suit was a wink to Tom Hanks suit in Big or Jason Biggs’s prom suit in American Pie. I do sincerely believe Brandon purposefully chose this imagery to have his readers react in a contradictory way: the narrative tells us Adolin’s clothes are very fashionable, but within our own modern-day western sense of fashion, they look silly. For some absurd reasons, I always thought it fitted Adolin just perfectly: yeah, he loves fashion, to the extreme, and yeah, some of what he chooses to wear is a tad ridiculous. Like the bright yellow suit he’ll later wear. I swear, Brandon has purposefully taken the time to figure what ridiculous outfit he’d put Adolin just for the shake of it!
And yeah, I know Adolin gets a bad reputation for liking something as useless, as expensive and as superficial as fashion, but I think there is a hidden metaphor or tale behind his various dress change. Adolin himself tells us how he once used to enjoy choosing an outfit to match his mood or how much he thinks clothing tells you about someone… so what is the fancy suit telling us about Adolin? I might be grapping at straws here, but I think the fancy suit represents whom Adolin thinks he wants to be (the superficial fop who enjoys drinking and leisure) whereas the Kholin uniform represents whom Adolin thinks he needs to be (the commensurate honorable soldier who follows all the rules, Dalinar’s rules). Neither however are truly… him. And by the end of the Kholinar arc, I have come to associate Adolin’s choice to wear his father’s colors (even if he finds himself unworthy of them) with his decision to drop the pretense of whom he thought he wanted to be to embrace whom he believes he needs to be only to later fail, once more, at this. I somehow got the feeling the day Adolin will be himself is the day he’ll figure out the right… clothing. The one which is *him*, really *him*. And by my estimation, he hasn’t found it yet, he may never find it.
So, class distinction and Adolin developing a camaraderie with Skar and Drehy, well, that was cute and definitely not usual as Kaladin himself points it out. Dalinar wouldn’t approve, if he knew about it. So yes, Adolin is a good person, it is hard to hate him, it is hard to entertain negative feelings towards him because he’s really nice and he *tries*, with people. He is born out of privilege, but he values people more than rank: an odd combination of both his mother and his father’s teachings. I would also argue he enjoys mingling with lower born people because with them, he doesn’t have to be pretend he is “the Blackthorn’s son as envisaged by the Blackthorn himself”, the one person everyone tries to manipulate to get a political advantages. I think this may be what he enjoys with Skar and Drehy: they do not treat him like an extension of Dalinar. A lot of Adolin’s arc in OB is about realizing how oppressing being his father’s son has always been, how suffocating.
And ah leaders… I wrote a lot lately about how their team mission partially failed out of bad leadership. This was one example: Kaladin doesn’t think he needs to follow orders. Elhokar might be the “leader”, but he isn’t the “leader”. Then who is? No one… and that will be a problem.
On Kaladin and Adolin’s friendship: I love seeing how Kaladin is failing at trying to hate Adolin. It shows how much he has progressed in terms of a character. We will later see yet another example of how much of a good friend Adolin is to Kaladin. As a reader, I now want to see the opposite. Befriending Adolin is definitely allowing Kaladin to juggle with his self-made impressions on lighteyes, it allows him to relativize his thoughts, to be more fair, to try not to judge people based on rank: it definitely is helping Kaladin growing into a better person. But what is a friendship with Kaladin providing to Adolin? So far, not much. In fact, I noticed how much of Adolin’s relationships are about him providing something to others, rarely the reverse. So now I want to read the reverse
Have to wonder if Kal’s prejudice isn’t being goosed by the Heart as well. It amplifies indulgence/laziness/lazy thinking, and blanket prejudice is certainly a textbook example of lazy thinking. Probably isn’t being helped by it, at least.
@8 But those oathgates presumably always required a radiant to actively them. They have a lock on them for security. You wouldn’t want life support to require the same active participation. And we don’t know that the life support isn’t being fed stormlight by some means.
@1 Austin
My best guess i mentioned in my thoughts. I think Kaladin feeling conflicted regarding his identity and how strongly tied his scarred head is, is what pushed through the illusion. I find it telling that it occurred during the discussion on the party where Alethi social structure came up, but not when they first entered the city. Could also be because if I recall correctly he was a dark eyed illusion entering, but this illusion was a light eyed. Perhaps Kaladin is still having trouble seeing himself as a lighteyed individual coupled with all his resentment for them still present.
@2 soursavior
Could be, but we do see in the visions a seemingly fully oathed knight (at the very least has her shardplate) being able to be lashed to fly as long as she doesn’t have her plate present. So I do not think the level of oaths matter as long as you are not using surges, stormlight, or plate. But since I am going off the vision and there is a whole lot we do not know about fully oathed knights, it definitely is still open to interpretation. Wish you luck with your theory!
@3 John
Hmmmm, potentially the back up to leave Urithiru would be the tunnels under the city that lead to the low lands. But that is something to consider.
@@.-@ Steven Hedge
I agree :)
@5 Simpol
Brandon has confirmed things like autism and depression cannot be healed by stormlight or cosmere healing. So no worry on the unsatisfying front there.
@7 AeronaGreenjoy
I thought what was cured in Edgedancer was brain damage, not a mental disorder. I will need to check, but if I recall correctly the kid’s skull was malformed, and I think hinted that it had been hit and healed that way or some such.
@8 ineptmage
I agree.
@11 Gepeto “Dalinar wouldn’t approve, if he knew about it.” why? this is in the very same book where he forms a pretty close chummy relationship with that one bridgeman guard. heck, his and Kaladin’s entire relationship up to the end of the last book shows that he’s not too picky about friendships with lower ranks. Dalinar basically threatened his own nephew if Kaladin was executed, he’s only done threats like that if it involves members of his family.
@15 Steven Hedge
There is also the fact that “The Blackthorn” didn’t care what your station was, nor even if you originally fought for the other side. If you were good at what you do, you could join his elites.
Are folks familiar with the relevant WoB?
SPOILER
Kaladin’s mother’s family is part light-eyed. He might not know it but he is of lighteyed ancestry.
Shash is “trouble”. Maybe the glyph itself has magical significance? I don’t actually think so, but ….
Brandon Sanderson, master of foreshadowing: at the end of this book, Adolin, after all his effort to convince Kaladin to use a sword … gives up his sword and picks up a spear to fight with. (Meanwhile, as also foreshadowed here, Kaladin is indeed in the position of fighting a swordsman and is helped by knowledge of swordfighting. And of course this all refers back to Moash giving up his Shardblade to defeat a Fused with a spear–and then at the end of this book getting an even more powerful Blade–it’s another action-ketek, as Moash gives up a Blade near the beginning of the book, then Adolin does it at the end.)
@AeronaGreenjoy:
@Scáth:
Cosmere SPOILER:
Yet in Elantris, becoming an Elantrian does, if not cure autism, ameliorate its symptoms, as the near-nonverbal math whiz suddenly can communicate normally.
@AeronaGreenjoy
There is no difference between “mental” and “brain” here in the actual world. (Brandon’s fictional one may be different.) Autism, for instance, appears to be related to the size and number of cerebral microcolumns that form during very early development, quite possibly in the fetus.
Ah, right. Thanks.
@15: Dalinar doesn’t think well of Adolin fraternizing with the soldiers, back in WoK. There is a direct quote where Dalinar explains he thinks Adolin’s behavior is inappropriate. At the time, he was willing to let it pass, but he definitely wouldn’t think it appropriate his son goes out drinking with his own men. This however isn’t a flaw on Dalinar’s part. He is right in trying to discouraged friendships in between a commander and his soldiers as part of Adolin’s job is to send those men to their deaths…. Kaladin comments in WoR how being the leader has isolated him from his own men. Here, Adolin is trespassing many boundaries. We like him for this, but given the context, it may eventually create more problems than it will solve.
Kaladin here states he believes Dalinar wouldn’t approve of the “friendship” and I also do believe he understands why. It isn’t about “caring about someone’s rank”, it is about respecting the separation in between leadership and foot soldiers. And yeah, the Blackthorn didn’t care much about those things, about leadership nor much else, but older Dalinar has grown into a respected leader. He now knows he can’t befriend foot soldiers if he wants them to later obey his orders, if he wants to be able to give them.
So yes, Dalinar as we currently know him would definitely not approve of his son drinking beer with foot soldiers. And I suspect Highprince Adolin will no longer be able to do this
@19 whose gonna stop him? you keep on saying that Adolin needs to step out of his father’s shadow, thus him becoming a high prince in his own right means doing things his father wouldn’t do NOW *his father did get into fights and went out drinking with his men even before evi died, probably even older than Adolin is now*
Something I haven’t seen anyone mention yet. Last week we talked about Shallan eating 2 dinners in a row. I think that situation combined with Skar asking for 7 desserts this week was intented to be a subtle hint as to what Ashertmarns powers were.
It is too bad that today is not a Shallan/Pattern chapter. Pattern would be over the moon today if he were on our world. It is Pi day (3/14). Pattern would love the concept of pi.
I think the reason the illusion of the brands failed was that Kaladin unconsciously used Investiture to erase the part of the illusion covering his slave brands. Kaladin believes they are still a part of his core. This is why he can never heal them when he floods himself with Investiture. For example, when he took the 3rd Oath at the end of WoR. Likewise, when he was using all the Stormlight during the Battle of Thaylen City, he did not heal the brands.
The way I read Kaladin’s personality is that he would have gone wondering (rather than be in the lighteyed guards’ tent) even if Dalinar had given him the order. It is who Kaladin is. He does not have a true military mentality. Even when he was a sergeant on the border skirmishes, he did his own thing. He was just that good of a spear man that he got away with it. Dalinar calls him out on his attitude at least once in WoR (when Dalinar was talking privately to Kaladin). Obviously, Kaladin chose to ignore Dalinar’s advice/orders. When push comes to shove, Kaladin does not work very well in groups. If he is convinced that is superior is wrong, Kaladin will do what he wants rather than what his superior orders.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@11: I always pictured Jim Carrey’s suit from Dumb & Dumber.
Something I’ve been wondering, and unrelated to this post, but have we ever been told via in-text info or WoB what used to happen with the Parshmen after a Desolation? For that matter, what marked the true end of a Desolation: the killing of every last Fused who were then sent back off world, or was it something else? Because I’m pretty sure the fighting would continue for awhile, the Unmade were (I presume) still out there in the world, and you sometimes had different human armies that joined their side as well. I suppose I’m just curious what did the Radiants used to dm a lot the remaining Singers prior to forcing them all into slave form.
I think most fandom analysis of the Alethi caste system fails on account of insufficient cynicism being brought to bear, and a tiny failure of objectivity. Because it isn’t actually racism in its foundation. At all. What it is, in its foundation, is classicism.
It’s a military aristocracy, which is a usual enough thing IRL (also definitely the Alethi thing); and military aristocracies have been replaced by military aristocracies since time out of mind. But were that ever to happen in Alethkar… how would you notice if you maintain a “racial” perspective? The existing Lighteyes great families would lose their blades and they would be taken up by the new Darkeyed military aristocrats. Whose eyes would turn light. And as they reliably transfer power and status to their descendants, which is human behavior Job One, within two generations those descendants… would be Light-Eyed. And military aristocrats, because that’s how Alethi organize.
To get rid of the Light Eyes/Dark Eyes stratification, one of the things you must do is stop being a military aristocracy. That won’t get you there directly (if they suddenly stopped, I’d bet the new system would have Dark Eye/Light Eye stratification), but no amount of Dark Eyed revolutionary action was going to result in the enduring loss of Eye’d class distinction so long as having military power was the legitimizing principle. None. Moash was engaged in a complete waste of time. Alethi history could contain any number of those pulled off successfully, and from the perspective of the “current” date, we would never notice.
(Note that even the Azish have classes- and they fall along scholar-gentry meritocracy lines. If passing exams turned your descendants eyes light, they’d have the Alethi’s problem eventually.)
What makes me wonder after OB is – when did Adolin even have the time to be a fop and form such a close relationship with his tailor? After all, Dalinar already reprimanded him for being “out of uniform” at age 15 and they left for the Shattered Plains when he was 17 and there Dalinar insisted on the uniform thing even more. Also, how could Adolin be “behind” on fashion when he wasn’t allowed to be wearing any? Was it just about awarness of modern trends?
I also wonder about the tailor being able to travel to Liafor and back, when we know that the Rosharans are limited to even slower travel than in pre-steam RL, since chulls are much slower than horses, slower than moving on-foot, really, and Alethkar is far from the sea and they don’t even have many rivers.
Re: lighteyes-darkeyes interaction, Dalinar seemed to be friends with Bashin and Lirin clearly interacted with many even apart from Wistiov in a very dignified manner.
@20: Who’s going to stop him? Probably himself. And others not being comfortable with it. Dalinar ended up being told regular men didn’t appreciate him invading their taverns, I suspect the same will happen to Adolin if he keeps at it. I also think Adolin is still too much wired to be “like Dalinar” and, as such, he may start to frown on his own behavior or perhaps start to realize what the consequences are. Either, a Highprince cannot have drinks with his guards in a tavern. He just can’t in the same way the President will not have beers with his bodyguards at a local pub. Part of Adolin’s reasons for not wanting those higher responsibilities is realizing once he takes up this mantle, he’ll be very alone, more alone than he is now.
@22: Yeah. I think you have a point. Kaladin doesn’t follow the lead particularly well and if he does, it is only because he agrees.
@26: I guess in between the age of 15 and 17 Adolin indulged in the fashion quite a lot… Still I get your point. Dalinar did criticize him about his tastes very early on and Adolin is always adamant to do exactly what Dalinar says. So how did he keep the interest in fashion despite being told, at 15, he should be wearing a uniform?
I also personally wondered how it was Adolin seemed to know so many people or why others even recognize him so readily… He hasn’t been in the city since his teen years: surely he has changed physically. The narrative is however written in ways making us believe Adolin has been in Kholinar not too long ago.
@24 – I assume that the Parshmen just hunkered down in whatever terrority they held and licked their wounds. And maybe they prepared for the next Desolation. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were wars with the Parshmen between Desolations as well.
@28 we do have some hints, of what was happening in between desolations thanks to the visions: the Unmade, and all of their minons. The knights radiant seemed to spend time hunting them down, and saving people from their attacks.
My theory about Kal being “louder” than Shallan is that the screamers are reacting to change. When Kaladin lashes something, he’s literally changing the object’s connection to Roshar, making it feel a different (or another) gravitational pull. With Lightweaving, the illusions don’t actually -change- the people they’re attached to. Perhaps if she tried to Soulcast, she would draw the screamers. Of course, since Brandon loves to only give us two points of reference with things so we can’t confidently say what the pattern / trend is (remember when the only glowing Shardplate we saw was on Stonewards or Windrunners, leading people to assume that all glowing plate was either sapphire or amber?), it’s possible that the orders which lean more towards Cultivation are quieter for some other reason.
@17 Carl
So as not to spoil I will speak vaguely lol. His “condition” was not cured. He still had it. Just his “other” “condition” added to the issues till that one was resolved. So the original “condition” still existed, just was not hampered by his other condition. Brandon confirmed he regretted the way he portrayed that individual because it was too much a “movie cliche” version of it.
As to what I was referring to, I thought the child got hit on the head, causing physical brain damage, and that is why it was able to be healed.
@20 Steven Hedge
I would also add that currently the form of “command” thanks to Elhokar is like this:
Dalinar: High King – can only order regarding the maintenance of Urithiru and matters concerning the Radiants. Cannot interfere with the rulers governance of their own countries.
Jasnah: Queen – can only order regarding the governance of her country. She cannot interfere with the direct rulings of the highprinces over their own vassals.
Adolin: Highprince – can only order regarding the governance of the Kholin princedom
So frankly Adolin can do whatever he wishes regarding the Kholin princedom as long as it does not effect the Alethi nation on whole, or interfere with Urithiru and the radiants.
@21 toothlessjoe
Interesting catch! I am not sure I agree, but I like it!
@22 AndrewHB
LOL on pi day
I agree on all points
@24 Halibulu
I am not sure if we have any word on what happens to the parshmen after a desolation, but I believe what seemed to mark the end of a desolation was the retreat of the fused. The unmade could potentially have still hung around as Ba-Ado-Mishram found a way to still fuel the parshmen after the desolation ended, and was referred to as the false desolation.
@26 Isilel
Adolin did travel back and forth between Dalinar and Alethkar so there would be time presumably there to get interested in fashion. Also we do see him perusing a fashion folio which is what I beleive he was referring to when speaking with the tailor. So just because he was not actively wearing it does not mean he stopped pursuing it.
@28 Austin
True true. Could very well be
@29 Steven Hedge
Also a good point!
@30 MauiWowee
Very interesting points! We do know a fabrial soulcaster had to hide behind aluminum sheets so as to not be discovered, so the trend does seem to be in your theory’s favor. Like you said, still too little information, but I like where your idea is headed!
@@.-@. Steven Hedge
“Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:30am Flag 1 Favorite [+]
@2 no, the shash brand isn’t magic, how would amaran know that? I think it goes all the way back to kal’s issues, where his healing wouldn’t take the scars away. it is so part of his idenity that….even shallan’s disguises just slip off of him”
My intent wasn’t to suggest that Amaram knows anything about the magic, I wanted to suggest that some or all glyphs might be cultural artifacts descended from a magic system and that some might be close enough to the original shape to still work under the right conditions. The glyphs feel magical to me, even if we have never seen them overtly being magic. Maybe I’m just thinking about Elantris, but maybe it means something.
@32 Soursavior, that is an interesting thought about glyph s. Elantris was full of them, and the use of them on Roshar never crossed my mind! I wonder if Brandon will ever reveal the truth! lol
…I accidentally read two chapters again this week. Oops! I just can’t stop myself! So, interesting chapter. Lots of brooding bridgeboy. His caste prejudices may be totally justified but it’s still not always fun to read through.
Adolin’s reaction to being unfashionable is priceless! His relationship to his tailor is so precious, and I love how he just wants to hang out with the Bridgemen. His non-care about rank might be because he’s so high, but Evi also did a really good job teaching him. Also, I want to go to Liafor with Yokska! I love the places we’ve seen already and I want to see more!
Re Kaladin’s mood in this book and chapter. I’m sure I read somewhere that Lightweavers have some influence on the mood of those round them, depending on their own perception of that person. This was referred to and answered in a WOB regarding Tien’s positive influence on Kaladin (as he was a developing lightweaver). I wonder if Shallan is unwittingly having a similar influence on Kaladin throughout this book, due to the way she perceives him? That might explain why he’s particularly dour throughout a lot of this book, even by his own standards!
Kaladin is close to the wall when the illusion fails. Later we learn about the metal shielding magic inside the wall. Could that have an area effect outside the wall? Maybe the sheets Hoid brought aren’t the only ones and earlier builders included something anti-magic in the wall to avoid voidbringer attacks or turning the wall into a stone giant.
About Kal’s glyphs, I really think it has to do with his mindset, and because he is able to use Stormlight. Once he stops thinking of himself intrinsically as a slave, they’ll either be healed (I’m leaning towards this being a “Moment”, connected to the saying of some Words), or be able to be covered with illusion without issue.
@30 You beat me to it. When Kal lashes something, it warps reality to a greater degree. Lightweaving warps reality to a lesser degree. Soulcasting would totally call a screamer, IMO, as it warps reality even more than lashing does. Minor healings (of others, we already saw that a Knight healing themselves don’t draw a screamer) probably wouldn’t, but Lift being Awesome probably would. Etc
@toothlessjoe, interesting idea. How would it relate that Hoid/Wit eats nothing at all? Of course he is absurdly invested and would be pretty resistant, I would expect. I still think Shallan was just hungry, since Wit tells her to stop starving herself.
I think with Kaldin not performing his part of the plan, it wasn’t in defiance, or just going against the orders of the king, i think he genuinely just decided to walk around a bit first, when he accidentally found the Wall Guard, at which point, his mission to figure out what was happening with the Wall Guard became a whole lot easier if he he went with them. And as others have stated, he’s a rogue solder, he kinda does what he wants, and his superiors let him.
@36 birgit
I had the same thought, but I think those are just sheets of aluminum and I don’t think just proximity to aluminum is enough to cancel/dissolve/negate Investiture. We’ve seen it block the “transfer” of Investiture (such as aluminum lined hats or Nightblood’s sheath), but not undo something just by being nearby. I think it’s an interesting line of thought though. And these sheets came from Hoid and he likely knows a lot of magic that we haven’t seen yet, so there may be something here.
@@@@@ Several
From a physics standpoint, Lightweaving and Lashing would both have a high degree of “change” associated with them. In the case of Lightweaving, you are manipulating energy by creating photons (electromagnetic energy) and pressure waves (mechanical/kinetic energy, the sound). For Lashing, you are creating potential energy (gravitational). I think there is either a hand-wavy explanation here (like Lightweaving is quiet) or there’s a Cosmere-mechanics explanation. Of course, we know nothing about how the spren detect the use of Investiture here, maybe different spren would be more able to observe Lightweaving.
I would guess that both Kaladin and Moash are radicalized (because thats what it is) because, as high caste darkeyes, they expected better treatment. And, in most circumstances they got it, and we not treated so different from low caste lighteyes….until they were. And it was a shocking betrayal – they had invested in the system and their families had been rewarded. They socialized with lighteyes.
So, Joe from the 8th nahn expects shoddy treatment. He can’t even travel – he’s a serf. But Kaladin and Moash were citizens.
@32 soursavior
Interesting ideas!
@35 Mairi C
Good point! Kaladin does comment how she reminds him of Tien. That could be part of the link.
@36 birgit
I am inclined to agree with ineptmage here, otherwise their illusions would have failed when they first entered the city, but interesting thoughts! Could be because they came through the gate the normal way, the defense didn’t kick in, so the theory is very much open!
@39 smaugthemagnificent
Good points!
@40 ineptmage
I agree on all points
@41 ineptmage
Interesting points. We do know energy, matter, and investiture are all the same thing in regards to the law of thermodynamics. Same energy, just different form. Hmmm perhaps spren specialization like a certain species of bird from Pajit? I like it!
There are different leadership styes that can be effective depending on the commander in question. If Adolin tried to restrain himself by commanding like Dalinar’s carbon copy, he’d be much less effective. Adolin is doing just fine. I don’t think he’ll change much nor should he.
@21: Oooh, fun thought and quite possibly true. Though I think there’s nothing extraordinarily unusual about eating two platefuls of food in a meal. Or wanting seven pastries, even if you don’t plan to eat them all at once. (Eating six platefuls of food, after a five-day fast, is a different scenario. #elantris)
I was finding this really annoying while reading because I don’t see why you are referring to the Sibling as a plural rather than singular. I’d be happier with “It” as a non-gendered pronoun.
Re: Kaladin wandering off. Doesn’t Kaladin tend to do this when he has some major thought shifting in the works? He did it in TWoK when Teft showed him what he was doing with Stormlight. I seem to remember him wandering off in the chasms several times. Right now he is irritated at Lighteyed excess, but finds he really likes Adolin, who is lighteyed. He thinks about how he gets dark moods, despite having things that make him happy, Then he wanders off and into a den of likeable Lighteyes who act just like regular people,
I do wish he had taken a close look at the strata. Strata keeps being mentioned for all the major cities so I’m sure there is something important there.
@35: That’s an interesting thought. I’d always assumed Lightweavers just had a positive effect.
@25 I don’t know why nobody else has responded to your post as I found it very intriguing. I hadn’t considered that the very nature of Alethi society and reliance of leaders being shard-bearers leads to the light-eyes always being in charge. I guess I had kinda considered it generally as how light-eyes became the leaders initially, but you bring up a great point that no matter who is in charge, or what revolutions or coups occur, it will always lead to light-eyes as long as shard-bearers are national/government leaders, too. Interesting.
As to the original post, I enjoyed the discussion between Alice and Aubree on Kaladin’s prejudice/perspective and how justified or not it is. I thought there were valid points brought up on both sides. One thing that I was thinking about after was that whether or not your view/reaction is justified or not, when you react with anger you are just as likely to further harm or hinder yourself as help. Anger, even justified, has to be closely controlled and tempered to make sure you harness it for positive change and not just revenge. Case in point – Odium – theoretically a necessary component of divinity in this universe (I’ll leave the discussion as to why for another day) – is here very destructive as he isn’t tempered by other attributes. There is no channeling of the passion toward something positive but instead it just builds and reinforces itself until it destroys other emotions and twists them. Sorry for the ramble… hopefully some of that makes sense.
Scáth @31:
I don’t recall any indication that Adolin returned to Kholinar during the Vengeance War. Ehlokar and Aesudan must have spent some time together 3-4 years ago to produce Gavinor, so maybe the king did visit (but Aesudan may have come to the Shattered Plains instead or they could have met in the middle), but there isn’t anything suggesting that his cousin did.
Speaking of the darkeyes – lighteyes situation, that’s one of the reasons why I was so frustrated with Graves being precipitiously killed off – I really hoped that he’d provide us with some clues into how marrying up works. Because Vorinism is a mixture of classism and racial segregation, but with more mobility than in RL examples of caste systems. Still, since social stratification is dependent on a physical difference, I am really curious about how it works in practice.
We know that upper-nahn darkeyes have more rights than African-Americans had even in most(?) Northern States in ante-Bellum US, because they can sue lighteyes and be witnesses in court, but beyond that things are murky. Roshone was afraid of Lirin’s right of inquest and Lin Davar – a lighteyes of 4th dahn, could do nothing to protect his son Yushu from the dark-eyed loanshark. Nor did Kaladin’s time with the Wallguards actually illuminate their position re: affluent darkeyes of upper nahns.
I can’t help but wonder too, how much the situation of Kaladin’s family was affected by them living in Sadeas’s Princedom, which was bound to be the least mindful of laws and such.
@islel i think the nahn – dahn system is more closley related to feudalism in that respect.
@50 To be fair about Graves, we don’t know how much of his backstory, of him being married to a dark eyes, is necessarily true, because of his connections to the Diagram, for all we know, he could have been lying to get in with Moarsh, convicing him that hey, I’m a good guy, I married one of your people.” I have more questions about the bastard son of the Jevar Highprince that Tavaragian killed and took over, and how that effects things in the dichomoty.
@50 Isilel
The going back and forth I was referring to Adolin’s childhood when he would spend some time with Dalinar, and then some time with Evi. Regarding the king, i think it was in a prior chapter re-read on tor that I mentioned a confirmation via WoB that Elhokar did in fact return to Kholinar occasionally during the vengeance pact, so that was definitely a thing. Now whether or not Adolin accompanied him, I do not know, though I think it could be possible.
@52 Steven Hedge
Good point, though I could have sworn there was something in the book that did confirm he was married to a dark eye. Either it was a convo they had while traveling in oathbringer, or something Taravangian said, but my recollection on that is spotty and I am probably wrong.
@46: because that’s the pronoun the Sanderson uses when talking about the Sibling. I find the singular ‘they’ as annoying as you seem to, but he’s obviously the last word on the subject.
*mumble* stupid english with its stupid shortage of pronouns makes sf so much more complicated *mumble*
@50: There is a WoB which confirms Aesudan did visit the Shattered Plains at least once since the beginning of the Vengeance Pact. As far as we are aware neither Elhokar nor Adolin ever travelled back to Kholinar. Needless to say there would have been absolutely no reasons for Adolin, still a young soldier in training at the time, to have make a trip back to Kholinar. Dalinar would have likely not allowed it anyway. Hence, you are likely right in stating Adolin didn’t seem to have live long enough in Kholinar to have managed to develop a lasting relationship with two tailors given how young he was when he left.
Therefore, Adolin had about two years (in btw the age of 15 and 17) to become a fop, enjoy fashion, come to trust the tailor, get to know the local soldiers before he left to the Shattered Plains. Before that, he was just a kid.
@50 Isilel
Here is the WoB I was referring to, for your reference.
Wetlander
Prior to becoming pregnant, did [Queen Aesudan] spend most of her time at the Shattered Plains, or in the capital?
Brandon Sanderson
She has spent most of her time in the capital. She obviously has been back and forth. I would say she has spent more time off the Shattered Plains than at it.
Wetlander
But she was at the Shattered Plains, rather than Elhokar going back to the capital?
Brandon Sanderson
He has been back at least once, but it is a long trip.
@48 whitespine
I think it’s important to think about this in terms of how many shardblades there are. Would there be enough to turn all of the families in authority in a successful revolution from darkeyes to lighteyes? Probably not. Could they then have intermarried enough at some point to remove evidence of in-power darkeyes? Maybe. Could after a few generations, they have turned racist again and cast out their darkeyed brethren and re-elevated the defeated lighteyes families? Maybe. Would a victorious darkeye revolution faction keep in place the caste system that denegrated darkeyes? Maybe. My only point is there would need to be a complicated set of circumstances for there to be no evidence of a previous revolution/coup. It’s plausible, though.
@57 ineptmage
Hmmmm all those points make me wonder what exactly is the deal with the oldbloods. I know, if I recall correctly, they used to be the ruling group, though I cannot recall if they ruled by a different system, or it was just what their dynasty was referred to.
@58 Scath
I totally forgot about the Oldbloods. This is a great point. I had always thought they were pre-Recreance rulers, but I guess that’s not explicitly stated anywhere and I’m probably mistaken. The fact that these people are important enough to have some details explained about them gives some credence to the idea that there was a forgotten revolution by darkeyes who turned lighteyes at some point. If that’s an upcoming reveal, mad props to @25 illrede. I really hope this ends up being the case now.
One thing I forgot to take into consideration in my earlier skepticism about this idea is the Vorin church’s influence. That could easily explain a reversion to classist/racist power dynamics.
@59 ineptmage
Lol now that I don’t have to dig for the underwater city WoB anymore, I did a brief search for oldblood and this is what came up
Questioner
What are Oldbloods?
Brandon Sanderson
Oldbloods? Oldbloods are the, um… Lon– Years ago, Alethkar was ruled by a different group of people. A different, like, dynasty. And it’s been overturned, and it’s been a long enough time that they’re not really a threat. But to acknowledge them, and Oldblood– they wear the tattoo. It means, “We are– We used to rule this place.” And so, it’s just– It’s a lineage of people and a dynasty that used to be the kings of Alethkar.
How long ago is left pretty ambiguous, so could be. Would certainly flip the premise of the current Alethi rulership on its head if that was the case. I could also see the religion potentially playing a part in reinforcing the classist/racist divide to help it attain/keep power in the society.
With everything going on, one thing is for certain, all traditions across the board might very well be thrown out the window. Gender divides, religious beliefs, and societal strata. The desolation is calling that all into question.
@54 necessary_eagle
Does Brandon use “they” to refer specifically to the Sibling, or is it used to encompass the three (Stormfather, Night Mother, and Sibling)?
Re Sibling and “they”, on mobile and can’t quote/copy paste nicely, but WOBs where Brandon uses “them” are present (e. g. Skyward AMA from UppityDarkeyes on nov3). The wob notes that the Sibling does not consider themselces male or female. (@Scáth,would you be so kind to help add in a couple of these, if you don’t mind?)
My suspicion is that the Sibling is linked to Dysian Aimians and then “them” refers to the hordelings/entities that make up the whole with a distributed hive mind. Thus gender id no longer directly relevant in the discussion, and linguistically speaking it doesn’t grate as much to refer to a distributed intellect as them, imho. This may also potentially explain Renarin’s comments that Urithiru is a giant fabrial made of multiple individual parts,with individual “sub spren” of the Sibling specialized/adapted to power various fabrials.
Kaladin’s description of depression is so heartbreaking and true. It was one of those moments reading where I felt a bit punched in the gut.
@1 Austin
My theory is that because Kaladin felt it a lie about who he fundamentally was, it didn’t stick. The earlier disguise presented him as someone else entirely, so it was misleading in a different sort of way because it wasn’t tryig to warp who he actually was. I see it as a limitation on a Lightweaver’s powers.
@7 AeronaGreenjoy
I really appreciate the description of Kaladin’s depression, and seeing inside his head when he struggles with it. To quote Alice:
This is true. I get those feelings, but my depression is mild. I live with someone with severe depression, though, and I used to get irritated when he’d get unreasonable towards me about something, then say a minute later “It’s not you, it’s me”, when I knew full well already that it wasn’t me– until I realized he was saying that more to himself than to me. It was him realizing that he was thinking irrationally, and talking himself through it.
@11 Gepeto
Adolin hadn’t ever formed any deep friendships with anyone (except perhaps with Renarin). In TWoK it was said plainly that he was friendly with a lot of people, but had no deep friendships with anyone. In fact, I think he appeared to be a womanizer in TWoK not because he thought women were playthings, but because he was expected to form a deep enough relationship with a woman to want to marry her, and would self sabotage so as to prevent himself from getting that close to anyone.
Something happened to cause Adolin to change. I haven’t really analyzed why, but he was determined to try to make the relationship with Shallan work. Then just when he turned over this new leaf of trying to form deeper relationships, Jakamov turned on him. Adolin then seemed to have gone 110% supportive of the guy who did have his back, from going to jail in solidarity, to trying to give him Shards to “fix” his problems, to engaging him in friendly conversations. Recently Adolin has been discerning about spotting when something is bothering Kaladin, and smart enough to ask and listen.
So, I ‘d say Adolin is getting something from his efforts, as he is growing his ability to form meaningful bonds with people, something he has lacked up to now. That he has decided that the person he wants to try to form a friendship with is a grouchy, depressed workaholic with serious trust issues is a bit of a hurdle, but Kaladin already likes him and respects him, so I feel they are well on their way.
Kaladin is not as good at reading Adolin as the reverse. I don’t know that he will ever be, unless Adolin opens up.
@12 hammerlock
I do wonder what the range of effect for an Unmade is. The Thrill could affect soldiers spread across a battlefield. So that is one example where there is some range. Not sure that Kaladin’s prejudice falls under the Heart’s purview. It should amplify the inherent prejudice across the city if it was. At a stretch, the Lighteyes taking the food from the starving (mostly Darkeyed) citizens could be seen as an amplification of prejudice, but if it is the Heart’s influence it could also be them just plain using their privilege to indulge their excess. Could be a mixture of the two. I do think the Unmade must have some influence on the people in the city at large, not just the palace.
@21 toothlessjoe
Yeah, asking for 7 desserts does sound more like what Ashertmarn’s influence should look like, though Skar sounded pretty flippant and they may well have been really really good desserts.
@30 MauiWowee
I think there must be something to your theory: Kaladin can hold stormlight, and even use it to heal it appears, without drawing screamers. So it is something particular about the Surges.
I would love to know just what the screamers are noticing, how they are noticing it, and what their range is. The only thing analogous that I can think of is Shallan’s ability to detect an Unmade’s presence through her drawing. She can do this at a distance, but it isn’t automatic, she has to take the time to draw the picture, and it doesn’t pinpoint the exact location of the Unmade.
Edit: Somehow, this has posted as #1 and #64. So erasing this one and flagging it to be removed!
@64: I think Adolin always wanted to form friendships with other people, but he just never managed to aptly navigate in between those who’d just be his friend for his rank and those who could become real friends. He could never discern in between the two because he never really was himself. He could never opened up to other people. Nothing changed for him (he is *still* not opening up to other people), he just happened to meet Shallan, a young woman not interested in the “idea of Adolin”, not interested in “whom Adolin is supposed to be”, but instead trying to know the real him. She was genuine with him, so he became genuine with her and it was so refreshing he fell in love with her. She is however the exception, not the new rule.
This being said, I do agree, Adolin’s reaction to the betrayal of his friends seem to have put all his eggs into the Kaladin basket. I figured he assumed the man who tried to save him wasn’t going to betray him: he was a sure bet, the one person Adolin could rely on, so he would be his friend.
Is he getting something for his effort though? I honestly do not think he is getting much. He is getting the idea he may have one real friend, but he had this idea before. What’s different in between Kaladin and Jakamav? Neither know Adolin all that well, neither are interested in knowing Adolin all that well, both are more driven by their personal needs (well the needs of those they want to protect in Kaladin’s case), none are into it for Adolin’s sake. The one difference is Kaladin will not betray Adolin and is not trying to use Adolin for his personal ambition, but if this has become the threshold for a meaningful relationship (I will not try to cripple/kill you), then it is sadder than sad, IMHO.
So no, Kaladin doesn’t read Adolin all that well. I agree he may never figure it out. I would argue he is not interested in trying anyway, not because he doesn’t care, more because he doesn’t think he needs to.
Hence it is, as long as this relationship will work one way, with Adolin providing Kaladin support without receiving anything in return, I will think of it as a very unbalanced relationship and certainly not a friendship as friendship, for me at least, means more than what we have seen on screen so far.
Just because the bro-bond between Addie and Kal leans more towards Kaladin’s benefit for the moment does not mean that 1. The friendship isn’t real or 2. That the balance will not shift in the future. Right now Kaladin needs the shoulder a bit more than Adolin at the moment. But when the book gets released Adolin is going to need some emotional support. Shallan is his wife, she will definitely get to handle some of that burden. But she ain’t going to be able to handle it all;she’s got issues of her own. I anticipate the balance shifting quite soon in Adolin’s favor.
By the way, I think it’s fair to mention that Kaladin is new to this friendship thing as well. He grew up isolated from his peers by dahn and by future profession. He’s had soldiers under his command since he’s been in the soldierly profession but none that he could step to with near equal footing. The closest he came to that was in Moash and we’ve seen how badly that turned out. There’s a period of adjustment going on in each man.
@@@@@32 soursavior
Oh, wait, you’re saying the shash glyph is related to Shallash, Lightweave Herald, so the brand might have some inherent magical resistance to Lightweaving? It’s an interesting thought.
@@@@@58 and @@@@@60 Scath, @@@@@59 Ineptmage
I feel like I missed something in the books. Where were the Oldbloods mentioned?
@@@@@62 KOOZ
I like your Sibling theory!
@@@@@ Many about Adolin’s travel habits:
I have always assumed that Adolin did travel back and forth. Someone had to have been the Kholin family representative in their princedom, and Adolin is the heir. I would think it would be part of his training. Unless their was something in the books that said he was at the Shattered Plains all six years, I think his relationship with his tailor indicates he spent time in Kholinar. But it never occured to me to pay attention to references to see if that was the case.
@67: The Kaladin and Adolin relationship is new, very new and it currently hasn’t deepened enough for me to be able to refer to it as “true friendship”. It is the glimmer of something which may become friendship but currently isn’t there yet, IMHO. I also do not mean to shove the blame onto Kaladin, but in my personal experience, not all friendship works. Worst, some people are unable to develop friendship relationships with others and this for various reasons. I thus find Adolin being unable to open-up to others combined to Kaladin being unable to be open for other people’s problems/personalities is an odd mix I am unsure how to refer too. A majority of readers consider them close friends, I consider them good acquaintances which both have a lot of crumbs to eat if they ever want to call each other “friend”, but that’s just me.
Them becoming real friends would require Adolin to open-up to Kaladin and Kaladin being interested in getting to personally know someone who isn’t “one of his people to protect”. So far, neither of them are there yet.
@69: The Kholin family representatives in Kholinar were Aesudan and Navani and likely other Brightlords Dalinar trusted. There also was Kave Kholin. I find if young Adolin had been travelling back and forth, the narrative would have mentioned it, especially since we do get his viewpoints. Dalinar is also very authoritative: he put rules within every single sphere of Adolin’s life. Had Adolin been able to indulge fashion every once in a while as well as alcohol, he wouldn’t be making such a big deal out of it in WoK. Also, Brandon said the travelling from the Shattered Plains and Kholinar took several weeks, so it was impractical. One simply didn’t travel back and forth just to run things. The Kholins likely had people to do this and with spanreed, Adolin’s presence is unnecessary especially considering his young age and the fact in-world characters didn’t start seeing him as a man up until the 4 on 1 duel.
Hence, by all means, Adolin’s relationship with his tailor was short-lived. So while the narrative doesn’t explicitly states Adolin never travelled back and forth, it explicitly doesn’t say he did. I find most clues we have indicate he never did so, but perhaps we could ask Brandon.
@Gepeto
I agree that what Kaladin and Adolin are experiencing will need some work before it resembles a true friendship. However, it is a great deal closer to friendship than either has experienced outside of familial bonds. Outside of Syl and Tien, what friend has Kaladin had? Outside Renarin and now Shallan, what friend has Adolin ever had? Those they considered friends betrayed them, nearly killed them. I cannot see either of them betraying the other in that manner for any reason. And saving each other’s lives a couple times is a good way to begin a sustainable friendship, for they are bonds forged in the fires of a fight for survival.
@Yes. Depression can be profoundly irrational and logical thought/talk often doesn’t budge it — but not always. I rebel againt the guidance-to-outsiders that “logic will not help” because I sometimes can talk myself through a meltdown or plunge of despair, and consequently used to doubt whether I had depression — evern when I wept very frequently, couldn’t bear to think about the future, and got annoyed every time my commute-driver said “Have a nice day” because can’t she see that I *never* have a nice day at work?! (I’m doing rather better now, having left that town and that job)
Well, here I am, as usual, seriously late to my own party… ;) But I’m going to respond to some of the comments anyway, because y’all made me think things.
soursavior @2 – “Alternative out there theory: the shash rune is inherently magical and burned off the illusion.” That’s a really cool theory. I have my doubts, but it’s cool. I’d kind of like to find out that it’s true. :D
John @3 – re: spren powering the remaining functions… I really want to know how all this works. You’re certainly correct that there are spren who power the Oathgates as super-fabrials, and I say “super-fabrials” because ordinarily, sapient spren do not power fabrials. The question I’d have about redundancy systems in Urithiru is what level of spren would power them. Is it ordinary spren, like windspren or lifespren, or were there honorspren/highspren who voluntarily bound themselves to parts of the Urithiru-fabrial? (Or involuntarily were bound? That’s sort of a horrible thought…)
Steven @@.-@ – Amaram wouldn’t have to know it was magic for it to be magic. I rather like the idea that the “dangerous” brand was given a magic effect so that it could never be disguised. Not having Radiants around for the last thousand-plus years means that everyone would have forgotten the magic part of it, but the tradition remained. Like I said before, I have my doubts… but I think it would be cool.
katre @9 – THANK YOU. That’s exactly the scene I was remembering; I just couldn’t pin it down. Guess it’s time for a Narnia reread!
Scath @10 – “I believe from what we see in Shadesmar, spren are attracted to something (an emotion, etc) and a portion of their body becomes visible on the physical realm.” Yes, we know that as regards emotion spren; I was trying to remember if we see that same effect with the nature spren. Do flamespren or rainspren behave the same way? I don’t recall it being described. I was hoping maybe someone else remembered more.
Halibulu @24 – I think the end of a Desolation happened when all the Fused were killed. Back then, when a Fused or a Herald died, they went back to Braize and stayed there until the next Desolation. This time it’s different in that the Fused can simply grab another body during the next Everstorm and keep fighting. I sure would like to know where along the timeline the Unmade were … unmade.
Isilel @26 – I would assume Yokska traveled overland to the south-draining rivers (and yes, there are several in Alethkar), much like Dalinar et al did when they sailed for the Shattered Plains. From Dumadari, which is on Alethkar’s southern coast, she would likely have sailed with a Thaylen merchant to Liafor, which is also on the coast. The first part of the trip (or the last, on the return) is the only part that would have depended on the slow-moving chull caravan.
We know that Adolin cared about fashion when he was younger, and while he was mostly in uniform for the last six years, there’s a reasonable chance that he’s been back to Kholinar during the span of the war. We have the WoB (quoted by Scath @56) that Elhokar has been back to Kholinar at least once, and we know that Aesudan, Jasnah, and Navani have all traveled back and forth between the two. All that said, the set-up does imply a closer relationship between Adolin and Yokska than seems logical, even if he’s been back an unlikely three or four times during the war.
Roger @@.-@6 – I refer to the Sibling as “They” because that’s the way Sanderson wrote it in the Stormfather’s words, and I’m trying hard to be consistent with his usage.
I’m guessing his intent in using “they” instead of “it” was to make sure we think of the Sibling as a person, not an object, but I don’t know. In any case, since the author deliberately used the plural pronoun, I’ll keep trying…
Also, there’s this WoB:
And another (only loosely related) WoB that I find encouraging:
So… maybe we’ll learn a lot more about the Sibling in book four!!!!!
nightheron @@.-@7 – That strata thing is driving me crazy. I’m pretty sure it’s important, and I’m also pretty sure a lot of it is artificial. I commented several times in the beta about “strata” doing things strata can’t actually do, and it’s mostly still there, so I assume it’s deliberate. I just want it clarified!
KOOZ @62 – Oh, I do like the idea of the Sibling being something like the Dysian Aimians, with a distributed hive mind. I got close to that in some of my earlier theorizing, but never got quite that far with it. That would be kinda cool, and maybe could tie in with my speculation that the Unmade are pieces of the Sibling. Hmmm.
nightheron @64 – “That he has decided that the person he wants to try to form a friendship with is a grouchy, depressed workaholic with serious trust issues is a bit of a hurdle,” – this made me laugh out loud. Perfect description!!
@several re: Skar asking for seven pastries – I didn’t take that as meaning much of anything. You know how often, when someone asks how many of something you want, and you say, “Oh, two or three”? I grew up with a cousin who deliberately and habitually would instead say, “Oh, two or seven.” (Okay, full disclosure: I say it myself a lot too, but it’s his fault.) So I read Skar’s words in exactly that tone of voice. This is not to say that Brandon didn’t mean it to be a hint at Ashertmarn’s effects; he probably did, as he didn’t grow up with my cousin! I just thought it was funny that it could be taken so differently.
@62 KOOZ
No problem, glad to provide. WoB shown below:
UppityDarkeyes
Would you be willing to confirm that the use of ‘they’ pronouns for the Sibling is because the Sibling is non-binary? Since apparently some people are confused on this point.
Brandon Sanderson
The sibling did not view themselves as male or female. (And considered it odd that so many spren would adopt human genders.)
Personally I think the reason that the Sibling does not have a gendered pronoun is, as Syl explained, humans weren’t the first being to give spren personifications. As in the singers have genders beyond male and female, so it would make sense the spren they gave rise to since they were there first, would also include those additional genders, or lack there of.
@64 nightheron
It seems like the screamers are mimicing bronze seeking which detects kinetic investiture (powers being actively used). That is why I keep wondering if lightweaving is a little like copper, though I do not have anything concrete to back it up. Just a theory.
@69 nightheron
I believe the old bloods are only mentioned once throughout the entirety of all three books, so don’t feel bad that you missed it. It was a throw away comment describing one of Dalinar’s officers named Teleb. He had a tattoo on his face, which marked him an old blood. It then did a short description that they used to be the rulers. The WoB I posted mentions a little bit more, but otherwise they are largely a mystery. Not sure if that mystery will be important or it is just a tidbit of worldbuilding that Brandon decided to include, but it is interesting all the same and fun for theories!
As to Adolin traveling I agree, and will elaborate in my response to Wetlandernw
@71 EvilMonkey
Good points on how Adolin and Kaladin mirror each other in that regard. Maybe they will end up bonding and having a stronger friendship due to that understanding and shared experience?
@73 Wetlandernw
Hmmmm, I have to try and dig at what spren type Eshonai saw. I know Rock saw the honorspren approaching, but that wouldn’t go under nature spren. I will try to pull up the scene later and see if it mentions it.
I would also add to Adolin’s travel discussion that Dalinar and co. acted largely as Elhokar’s guards and advisers. It got to the point that many highprinces practically referred to Dalinar as Elhokar’s babysitter. So I would imagine when traveling back to Kholinar, that Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin would accompany him.
Also here is a question maybe you can answer me. I know while on duty soldiers had to be dressed in uniform, and during wartime they needed to always be ready for battle, but surely that did not mean every single soldier from foot soldier to highprince had to be in full uniform even when they slept? I would imagine they would be allowed to wear other clothes when off duty. I couldn’t picture that every single individual in Dalinar’s army literally had 10 duplicates of the same exact uniform in their closet for each day of the week. So surely there would be opportunities for Adolin to wear clothing other than his uniform, just not as often as he would have liked, and he couldn’t make the alterations to the uniform that he would have liked. At least that is my understanding of it. Would you say I am totally wrong in this?
Adolin is adamant in WoK on never being allowed to wear anything else than his Kholin uniform. So no, he wasn’t having “occasions” to play dress up or else his entire character arc in WoK falls apart. It may be the rules weren’t so strict on the regular soldiers, but it was emphasis in WoK how Adolin HAD to follow the rules and to forget his interest in fashion or, at least, to restrict it to reading magazines.
Hmmm, the codes is what Dalinar is going by regarding his camp and the codes do not seem to mention anywhere about wearing a uniform 24 hours (or whatever the Rosharan analogue is) a day 10 days a week. I have included the codes below. Looks like (to me at least) you can wear whatever you want when in private
The Codes
1. Readiness
The officer will be prepared at all times for battle. Never drunken on wine, never without his weapon.
2. Inspiration
The officer will wear his uniform when in public, to look ready for war and to give strength to his troops.
3. Restraint
The officer will refrain from needless duels, arguments or squabbles with other officers in camp, to prevent injury to men who may be needed to command.
4. Leadership
The officer will require no action of his soldiers that he would not be willing to perform himself.
5. Honor
The officer will not abandon allies on the field, nor will he seek to profit from the loss of his allies.
@Wetlandernw
Is there anything I am missing?
edit: also of note, it says an officer is never to be drunken on wine. That indicates to me that you can drink wine, just not get drunk. It doesn’t prevent you from drinking wine at all ever. Which is confirmed in the books by Adolin wanting to drink heavier wine like the other princes. Dalinar allows him to drink wine, but only moderately heavy, and then to switch to orange which is what I believe was confirmed by Brandon to be like “juice”. The Codes also forbids dueling but Adolin can still go on duels so long as it is to defend himself or his father. He has mentioned going on numerous duels, he just had to make sure the other party initiated it. The last two seem more for commentary on Sadeas than Dalinar and Adolin lol. So personally I do not see the Codes stopping all alternative life. But I will wait for wetlandernw to ring in. Maybe she saw something in the Beta read that I missed.
I just thought of a nice bonding time/scene that could be for Adolin with Renarin or Shallan. Maybe growing up Adolin would try on outfits and styles at home, in his rooms, and ask Renarin’s thoughts on them. That would be a really nice brotherly moment. Renarin could be himself with Adolin and talk as he wished, and Adolin could get input from his brother on the styles of clothing sent from Kholinar from his personal tailor. Then by extension he could do the same with Shallan.
I was thinking about Adolin’s love of fashion, and it came to me that the relationship with his tailor didn’t have to always be face to face. They had span-reeds, he could have requested folios of clothes and fashion that way. A single meeting for sizing and measurements could handle all his needs. In the old days people wrote letters and became fast friends. Much information can be disclosed in a letter….JS
@78 snaggletoothedwoman
And even in modern times irl, the vast majority of communication happens textually rather than verbally. Some of my best friends live hundreds of miles away from me and I “talk” to them all the time. Further, we see Jasnah has a whole posse of friends/colleagues working in close-knit fashion with all communication being done through spanreed. Very very plausible that Adolin has kept up his relationship with his closest connection to his favorite hobby.
Adolin literally begs his father to allow himself to indulge just once. He also mentions on numerous occasions how he is never allowed to wear anything else, but his uniform, a fact confirmed by both Shallan and Kaladin. So two outside sources confirmed Adolin has never been seen wearing anything else but his uniform. It doesn’t matter what the codes say, Dalinar has his own interpretation of them and he has insisted himself and his sons would show the example and wear their uniform. Always. At all time. Adolin himself states it in WoK. Brandon Sanderson himself told us Oathbringer would have a moment where Adolin is FINALLY allowed to wear something else than his uniform. I thus find it doubtful the numerous scenes where several characters comment on Adolin never wearing anything else but his uniform somehow failed to capture the unsaid fact he actually had, all this time along. If it weren’t the for the tailor scene, no readers would be arguing Adolin was somehow indulging in fashion all through the Shattered Plains war as the narrative explicitely states he didn’t, except in magazines.
Also, while the narrative doesn’t specifically state Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin never went back to Kholinar during the Shattered Plains war, I find this would be inconsistent with Dalinar’s character. For one, he is a control freak which makes it doubtful he woud relinquish the control of the war to an underlign especially given every single individual of influence and consequence was at the Shattered Plains, not in Kholinar. It would also mean the entire Kholin household would have left the Shattered Plains, the wars to spent 6 months travelling back and forth to Kholinar (a gross estimate based on potential travel time and length of stay back home) just to babysit Elhokar’s ruling. This seems highly unlikely. Dalinar has been known to spend years at a time away from Kholinar. For second, up until early in WoK, Navani was in Kholinar and Dalinar has, by his own admission, spent years trying to avoid her. This makes it even less likely he has made the trip back home, with his sons in tow.
On another side of things, Adolin’s character has been defined through his inability to view himself outside of Dalinar’s picture perfect vision of him. Had he spend 6 months per year indulging in Kholinar, away from his father’s prying eyes, he would have likely develop into a much different young man than the one we see needing time *away* from Dalinar to start introspecting himself.
My thoughts are thus the simplest explanation is likely the truest: it is impossible to write a book of Oathbringer’s length and scope without inadvertently introducing one or two minor plot holes. Brandon himself admitted, while he was doing his best, this was an impossible task. In the scene at hand, this week, I personally suspect the need for a comical-relief scene tossed in the middle of grim, dark and depressing Part 3 over-shadowed the need for a realistic, plausible relationship in between Adolin and his tailor. Hence the fact young Adolin likely never stayed in Kholinar long enough to develop such relationship was just over-looked. My personal thoughts also are Brandon doesn’t really start to write Adolin’s character seriously until the Kholinar palace attack, before those scenes, he was still within the mindset of having Adolin as both a foil and a comical-relief. Unfortunately, while I love every scene Adolin is in, I do think the tailor arc might have undermine the character but nullifying the growth he previously had, in both WoK and WoR, going from a superficial fop to a young man of consequences with a darker streak.
On dueling, Relis Ruthar states, in WoR, Adolin hasn’t had any duel of consequences in years. Serious duelists consider he is over-rated and needs to prove he should be allowed to fight the best. So while he never stopped dueling per say, he wasn’t dueling to win nor to get ranked which is the opposite of what he wanted, as a teenager. Dalinar explains it by not having the heart to completely forbid it as he realizes this was Adolin’s passion.
On the very side note, Brandon confirmed we would get Adolin’s viewpoint on his relationship with Shallan within book 4, so all ideas of what it may entail are officially on the table!
@78: Now, that’s a much better explanation, thank you, though Adolin wasn’t aware of the latest fashion trends. His folios were all outdated. If he had regular correspondence, it seems more likely he would have known.
@78 snaggletoothedwoman
Good point. That would allow Adolin to keep close with his Tailor (though when they lose contact with Kholinar potentially causing issues in communication) so he could keep up to date on fashion for him to try out in his mirror at home. Adolin does comment how he doesn’t get to dress like the other princes in public at dinners or hunting so I could totally see him pursuing his passions behind closed doors. Now I have this picture of Adolin reclining at home in a fashionable suit, a cup of wine in his hand, content and relaxed. The only thing ruining the moment for him being that he cannot show his style off. (to be clear not indicating he is vacuous or anything.). Its why I think being able to share that with Renarin would be a nice moment for them. Adolin gets to have feedback from his brother and best friend.
@79 ineptmage
Good point. You can hear the warmth in Jasnah from that scene as she writes to her friends. So too for Adolin.
@74 Scath, @69 nightheron
There are a couple of mentions, actually, but the information is very sparse. In tWoK, it is mentioned that Teleb has a tattoo and that marks him as an Oldblood. In WoR, Teleb is referred to at one point as the “Oldblood Shardbearer” with no further elaboration. Further, in WoR during Adolin’s viewpoint he thinks this of Teleb: “His people had once ruled Alethkar.” In a flashback in OB, Dalinar notices Teleb’s blue cheek tattoo when they first meet. Every other instance with Teleb has no mention (to my knowledge) of his Oldblood association. The casual way Sanderson throws in those phrases without any elaboration makes me think they’re hinting at something important, but it could just as easily be an richness-of-history worldbuilding trick (especially “Oldblood Shardbearer” being totally unnecessary as a descriptor there).
@80 Gepeto
I don’t feel very invested in deciding whether Adolin’s fashion hobby and relationship with his tailor is plausible since this seems like a fairly trivial point of contention, so don’t take this as much of an argument; however, we do know that the tailor has been traveling recently and said travel may have taken a significant amount of time. Maybe the travel (away from the spanreeds of Kholinar) is a reason why even if Adolin had regular correspondence with the tailor, he could have a recent lapse of updated fashion info.
@69 i hadn’t thought about a connection between the potential (out there loony theory) magic origin of runes and the names of Heralds, but you draw an interesting parallel. It seems as likely as any other part of the theory.
@Several singular they has been in documented use since the 14th century and is becoming increasingly popular over constructed alternatives as the pronoun of choice for agender and non-binary people. It’s worth getting used to it and I’m glad Sanderson has been sensitive enough to that community to use it.
@82 ineptmage
Great catches! Hmmmm, maybe there is something to it. Shardbearers in combat do wear their helms which would prevent someone from seeing his face tattoos so it would be interesting if there was an intent to making a point to mentioned that regarding being a shardbearer. He is also (to the best of my recollection) the only one of his “kind” we see on screen or any mention of. Wonder if we might see more of them because they side with Odium with promises to regain their former glory/power.
By the time we first see our friends in The Way of Kings, Dalinar had gone pretty solidly into the Codes, and expected his officers to adhere to them. I believe most of them did, because it was their Highprince’s orders, but it was especially required of Adolin (and Dalinar himself, of course). The one relevant to this discussion is “The officer will wear his uniform when in public, to look ready for war and to give strength to his troops.” So while Adolin could have worn whatever he wanted while in his quarters, he couldn’t go out in public in anything but uniform. He may have had a few things made just for the fun of having them, but since he couldn’t wear them outside the Kholin rooms… he may not have.
On the other hand, we don’t know just how recently Dalinar started requiring adherence to the Codes. We know that when Gavilar started talking about them, and suggesting they be followed, Dalinar was among those who thought it was foolish. We also know that he himself began to adhere to them about the time of his visit to the Nightwatcher, on his way to the Shattered Plains. When he started insisting that his officers do so as well is… ambiguous. So it may have been as recently as the last couple of years that Adolin hasn’t been allowed to wear pretty stuff when off duty. ::shrug::
@85 Scath, I sure hope we do see more of them, mostly just because I’m so curious now about their past. Of course we probably won’t get any clues from Teleb unless it’s through flashbacks since he was unceremoniously dispatched off screen. Did he and Kalami have children? I don’t remember any mentioned.
Interesting idea about Oldbloods “switching sides” to join Odium since Teleb switched sides from trying to assassinate Dalinar to joining him moments later (and a Dalinar that was filled with Odium’s Thrill at the time, no less).
The tailor traveled recently. Maybe she came to the Shattered Plains to visit her customers there when the real power center moved to the Shattered Plains. If all the important people who were her customers are suddenly elsewhere it makes sense to follow them.
@86 Wetlandernw
Thanks for the info! Then I will stick with my potential headcanon/actual canon image in my head of Adolin doing mini fashion shows to himself in the privacy of his own room, with Renarin cheering him on.
@87 ineptmage
I wonder if that is part of the reason he got killed off. So there wouldn’t be a whole conflict for Teleb as the old bloods pop up. We already have plenty of personal conflicts with country/culture of origin/friends abound (Szeth and the Shin, Rlain and parsh, Kaladin and Moash, Kadash/Dalinar and the Vorin church). So maybe Brandon wrote him out so it didn’t get too repetitive when potentially the old bloods rise.
@83: It is not a particularly important plot point, I agree, which is why I am leaning more towards the “plot hole” explanation. Not intentionally, but just a small something Brandon over-looked. It is a very large book, we can realistically expect some low in consequences plot holes to occur. In this specific case, I do think the Adolin/tailor relationship was introduced to serve as a comical-relief.
@86: Within Dalinar’s next flashback, we will see Dalinar severely criticize Adolin for not wearing the standardized uniform. This was before he read the Way of Kings, before he visited the Nightwatcher and before he started to adhere to the codes. I would thus argue Dalinar always had strong inclination towards uniforms: following the code merely exacerbate what it seems he thought was important before.
This being said, while we do not know when exactly Dalinar enforced his interpretations of the codes on Adolin, it seems safe to assume it was, at least, a few years.
I am personally of the opinion Adolin did not keep a well garnished ward-robe of clothes he only wore for himself in his rooms. He mentioned, in WoK, how his interest in fashion was linked to him wanting to craft himself a look to fit his mood: it seems kind of pointless to do it just for himself. Also, Adolin uses clothes to try at being someone which is also not something I see him do all by himself, but that’s just me. At this point in time, everyone’s head canon is welcomed.
Just agreeing with something @Scáth among others commented on: although it’s fairly subtle, one thing we see in this book as it progresses is that there are similarities among the young generation of Kholins. I can completely see that Adolin would have “e-pen pals” like Jasnah, but of course he would not be able to communicate with Yokska without a woman’s help to work the spanreed as of the end of Oathbringer. Or an Ardent to do so, of course, and we know Dalinar owns several Ardents and that Adolin, as is characteristic of him, respects them.
When I first encountered the “Oldbloods” I had two contradictory readings. One was that they sounded like evil Tolkien hobbits, of course.
The other was that they must be descended from the Parsh.
@91 Carl
I agree. There also would be nothing racy or risque about him keeping in contact with his tailor for an ardent or woman he is courting to use against him, since we find out at one point that one of Adolin’s potential love interests was a plant by Sadeas if I recall correctly. All the other highprinces and nobles enjoy being fashionable in their military garb, so it is not like it would be a forbidden secret that Adolin would have to squirrel away for fear of it being revealed. The only requirement he has is to be in uniform in public. There are countless individuals in our own world that enjoy alternative fashion choices in the comfort of their own homes that they have to hide for fear of reprisal from their peers depending on the place they live (cross dressing, furry, etc)(to be clear I am not saying Adolin falls into these catagories. Also to be clear nor am I saying Adolin can’t fit into these categories. Hopefully that covered all my bases and no one is offended). So I could easily see a desire to still pursue a passion in private while lamenting being unable to do so in public.
Revealing once more my level of ignorance regarding Tolkien’s world, what about the word old blood elicited a sense of evil hobbits? Genuine curiosity. As to potentially being descended from the Parsh, that could be. To me we do not see enough of the old bloods to register whether or not they possess further characteristics that would lend them to potentially being one or the other (such as the horneaters ability to see spren, propensity to eating shells, and having a throat like a turtle, while herdazians having slate like nails). Hmmm having said that, the horneaters do certainly seem to be “closer” to being parsh than Herdazians. Are there any other characteristics of them that lend them to being related to parsh that I am forgetting?
@91 Carl Actually, we have proof that Adolin would just grab a ardent if he is feeling bored and using them to send messages via span reed. His imprisonment when Kaladin was arrested. He was basically sending bored text messages to Shallan when he locked himself up in a cell. So it is characerstic for him to grab a ardent and send messages to his tailor, before the communications went down.
@Scáth, many hobbit names are of the form adjectivenoun: Proudbottom, Brandybuck, Fairbarn, Goodbody, Lightfoot, Smallburrow. (Notice the alphabetical order? Yes, I did consult a list.)
As for the Parsh thing, I’m not saying the Oldbloods are actually descended from the Singers, just that the words “old blood” make it sound like that, because the four-sexed blue-skinned people lived on Roshar before the two-sexed non-blue-skinned ones. In practice that’s quite probably just “human” arrogance, where “old” is measured only against other human royal families, ignoring the very existence of the original inhabitants of Roshar. I can make a direct comparison to, say, the First Families of Virginia, who are of course descended from European settlers, not the Native Americans who had lived in what became Virginia for millennia before Columbus. (They claimed descent from Pocahontas as a way to end-run that rather obvious point.)
@94 Carl
Ahhhhh, now I got it. lol, thanks for explaining.
Lol yeah, I have a feeling the old blood term is more in regards to the Alethi, than the human race on whole on Roshar, or even all life on Roshar. But I do not have anything concrete to back it up other than the mention that they used to rule Alethkar, instead of saying all of Roshar. But I am excited to learn more about old bloods, and see if they have anything larger to bring to bear in the grand scheme of things.
@74 Scath & @82 ineptmage
Thank you for explaining Oldbloods. Yeah, completely didn’t remember the references. It does seem an interesting bit of world building. I suspect a history lesson will appear in an upcoming book and they will be a piece of the puzzle.
@96 nightheron
No problemo. Glad to help! :)