The origins of the Suicide Squad go all the way back to 1959, as a feature in The Brave and Bold by Robert Kanigher and Ross Andru featuring Colonel Rick Flag and a team of adventurers dealing with bizarre phenomena and monstrous opponents. In 1987, as part of the Legends miniseries, John Ostrander, Len Wein, and John Byrne revived the Suicide Squad as a government covert ops team made up primarily of incarcerated super-villains working off their sentences.
The Suicide Squad spinoff comic by Ostrander and Luke McDonnell was one of the best comic books of the late 1980s, and the team has been part of the DC universe on and off since. And in 2016, they made it part of their nascent DC Extended Universe in movies.
The reintroduction of the Suicide Squad three decades ago gave us arguably the most important and impressive non-powered, non-costumed character in the DC universe (if not all of mainstream comics): Amanda Waller. A tough-as-nails government operative, she’s also a plus-sized black woman, something almost never seen in any kind of fiction, much less superhero comics.
Waller is the head of Task Force X, which deals with threats to the U.S. on missions that might be dangerous. Hence the use of super-villains: they’re expendable. Each is equipped with a bomb that will detonate if they get too far from Colonel Flag (or whoever’s in charge of the mission). The villains are given a chance to reduce their sentences—each mission that they survive shortens their time—and actually serve their country.
Versions of the Squad and Task Force X have appeared in DC’s TV adaptations in the past, including the animated Justice League Unlimited (with Waller, voiced by CCH Pounder, a recurring role in the series), and the live-action Smallville (Waller played by Pam Grier) and Arrow (Waller played by Cynthia Addai-Robinson). While the roster of the Squad has varied wildly, Flag, Deadshot, and Captain Boomerang—stalwarts of the comics version of the Squad—are in most of the adaptations as well. Waller also appeared in 2011’s Green Lantern, played by Angela Bassett.
Having the Squad in Arrow was specifically done as a trial balloon to see if audiences would respond to a movie. At that, they were very successful—in particular, Nick Tarabay was an excellent Captain Boomerang—and so a Squad movie was greenlit, bringing in Viola Davis to play Waller (Octavia Spencer and Oprah Winfrey were also considered), and Jay Kinnaman to play Flag after Tom Hardy had to drop out.
Buy the Book
Magic for Liars
Both Boomerang and Deadshot were givens to be part of the roster for the film. Both D-list villains associated with, respectively, the Flash and Batman prior to 1987, Ostrander developed both characters brilliantly in the Suicide Squad comic book. Boomerang became the embittered comic relief, and also one character who remained unrepentantly evil and self-serving no matter what. Deadshot, though, became a much more complex character, given a background and a brutal past history. Jai Courtney was cast as Boomerang, with Will Smith (last seen in this rewatch in the Men in Black trilogy) playing Deadshot.
The rest of the team included Enchantress (Cara Delevingne), El Diablo (Jay Hernandez), Killer Croc (Adewale Akinnoye-Agbaje, last seen in this rewatch in Thor: The Dark World), Katana (Karen Fukuhara), Slipknot (Adam Beach), and Harley Quinn (Margot Robbie).
The Enchantress was a mystical antihero/villain type from the 1960s—a split personality, she was both June Moone and another personality/persona, the Enchantress, who was not always on the side of the angels. El Diablo started as an Old West vigilante in All-Star Western in 1970, and there have been two different modern versions, one a costumed hero, the other—the one this version is based on—a villain. Killer Croc is a longtime Batman villain, born with a rare genetic condition that gives him a reptilian appearance as well as great strength. Katana was a founding member of the Outsiders, and has also been part of the Birds of Prey and the Justice League. Slipknot was a minor Firestorm villain from the 1980s who, like Enchantress, has become much more prominent since appearing in the Suicide Squad comic.
And then there’s Harley Quinn. Originally created for Batman: The Animated Series as Joker’s moll/sidekick, the character—voiced by Arleen Sorkin—became a massive hit, and quickly was brought into the comics continuity. Formerly a therapist named Harleen Quinzel, she became obsessed with the Joker while treating him and went over to the metaphorical dark side.
Her past with the Joker is used in this movie, with Jared Leto playing the Clown Prince of Crime. Ben Affleck also reprises his role as Batman in a small role capturing both Quinn and Deadshot. The intent was to set up Leto to be the Joker in an Affleck-led movie called The Batman, but what with Joaquin Phoenix now playing the title role in the upcoming Joker and Affleck no longer attached to The Batman, who the hell knows.
Besides Affleck, there’s also a cameo by Ezra Miller as the Flash capturing Boomerang. David Harbour plays Dexter Tolliver, Ike Barinholtz plays Griggs, Scott Eastwood plays GQ Edwards, and Alain Chanoine plays Incubus, Enchantress’s brother.
The film was a box-office success, but a critical flop. A sort-of sequel, The Suicide Squad, is being written and directed by Guardians of the Galaxy‘s James Gunn for 2021 release, with only Robbie and Courtney so far confirmed to be reprising their roles. Robbie is also starring in a spinoff, Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn), due for early 2020 release.
“Behold the voice of God”
Suicide Squad
Written and directed by David Ayer
Produced by Charles Roven and Richard Suckle
Original release date: August 5, 2016
Amanda Waller meets with two government officials to pitch Task Force X. While Superman was a good guy, he’s dead now, and the next Superman might not be so nice. The government needs controllable assets to bring to bear against the next threat. Waller already has five prisoners in the Belle Reve black site in mind: Deadshot, an assassin-for-hire, who is stopped by Batman (Waller got an anonymous tip to him identifying Deadshot as Floyd Lawton, and Batman stops him when he’s visiting his daughter); Harley Quinn, the Joker’s lover/sidekick, also captured by Batman; Captain Boomerang, a thief captured by the Flash; El Diablo, a super-powered gangbanger who turned himself in after he accidentally killed his wife and children; Killer Croc, a mutant who was driven out of Gotham by Batman and eventually captured; and Slipknot, another assassin, whose background is never provided because he’s going to be killed early on.
Waller also has in her custody June Moone, an archaeologist who was possessed by an ancient sorceress, the Enchantress. Former Special Forces Colonel Rick Flag works for Waller, and he has fallen in love with Moone, and Waller says she can control Enchantress two ways: (1) through Flag, who will protect Moone with his life, and (2) she has Enchantress’s heart in a box and will destroy it if she acts up.
The prisoners themselves will be outfitted with nano-bombs that Flag and Waller control—and if anything happens to Flag, all the bombs will go off. Supporting Flag is a team of SEALs and Special Forces personnel as well as a Japanese swordswoman named Katana, whose sword absorbs the souls of those it kills.
Griggs—the asshole in charge of Belle Reve, who regularly torments both Quinn and Deadshot—is also an inveterate gambler, and Joker uses that as leverage to get him to sneak a cell phone to Quinn and get information about the nanobombs.
Enchantress manages to sneak out on Flag and resurrect her brother, the Incubus, who possesses a businessman in Midway City, and then absorbs several other people’s life forces (a cop, a transit worker, a doctor) to give himself corporeal form and power. He starts to take over Midway, prompting an evacuation of the city and the government to activate Task Force X.
While the Task Force is gathered, Flag and Enchantress go to Midway, but Enchantress then reveals her duplicity, and abandons Flag to join her brother—and Incubus manages to reinforce Enchantress’s power so that Waller can’t harm her heart. Flag is forced to abandon the mission and leaves behind the bomb that was going to be used to blow up the bad guy. This will probably be important later.
The Task Force X recruits are implanted with their nanobombs and sent on their first mission: to retrieve Waller, who is covering up her own involvement in this disaster (she goes so far as to kill the other people in the safehouse with her). En route, they encounter people who’ve been turned into demon cannon fodder by the Incubus and the Enchantress. Boomerang convinces Slipknot that the nanobombs are a con, and Slipknot believes him, resulting in Flag detonating his bomb and killing him.
Joker has gone to the company the nanobombs come from and blackmailed the chief scientist into giving away the method for deactivating them. He then hijacks the extraction helicopter that’s supposed to take the Suicide Squad out of Midway and deactivates Quinn’s bomb. She goes off with her Puddin’. Waller offers to reunite Deadshot with his daughter if he kills Quinn, but he misses—Deadshot has explicitly said he doesn’t kill women or children, and he and the rest of the Squad have bonded over their mutually shitty situation.
Waller sends the Army in to blow up Joker’s helicopter, and it crashes to the ground, though Quinn survives. We never see Joker’s body, though.
Enchantress learns that Waller is in town and takes her hostage, complete with the box containing Enchantress’s heart. Waller’s files are left behind after she’s captured, and the Squad learn the truth about who they’re facing. Quinn rejoins them, and they all decide to go for a drink, as they’re fed up with being lied to. Flag joins them in the bar, smashes the tablet that controls their bombs, and says he’s going after Enchantress. The Squad decides to go along, since they’re no longer being forced. (In Deadshot’s case, Flag was carrying out the letters that Deadshot’s daughter was writing to him every day—yes, he was carrying all those letters with him on a mission for no reason the script can be bothered to explain—and Deadshot says he’ll help Flag but only so his daughter can know that her father isn’t a complete piece of shit.)
Killer Croc and a team of SEALs go into the now-flooded tunnels to retrieve the bomb, while the rest of them confront Enchantress and Incubus. El Diablo—who has finally embraced using his powers again—distracts Incubus long enough for Croc and the gang to set up the bomb. El Diablo and the SEAL team sacrifice themselves to destroy him.
That just leaves Enchantress. The team can’t really fight her on their own, but then Quinn says that she’s willing to join her. However, it’s just a ruse to get close enough to cut out her heart. Flag gives Croc a package of C4 which he throws at Enchantress, and which Deadshot detonates with a perfect shot. Flag threatens to crush Enchantress’s heart if she doesn’t bring Moone back; Enchantress refuses, thinking Flag too weak to do it. Flag then proves her wrong and crushes the heart—which, it turns out, frees Moone.
The Squad isn’t thrilled at the notion of going back to prison, but Waller does say their sentences are reduced, and she also gives most of them perks: Deadshot can visit his daughter, Quinn gets an espresso maker, and Croc gets a television. (Boomerang doesn’t get any perks because he mouths off to Waller.)
And then there’s a breakout—Joker shows up to get Quinn out of prison.
Finally, Waller meets with Bruce Wayne, who promises to protect Waller in exchange for her files (which includes dossiers on Enchantress, Flash, and Aquaman). He also says that she should shut down Task Force X, or he and his friends will do it for her. Almost like he’s forming a team or something…
“Normal is a setting on the dryer”
This movie starts out so promisingly and then goes so totally off the rails, and it’s frustrating.
The setup is perfect, and very well done, if a bit drawn out. The government responding to the death of Superman in Dawn of Justice with a government-controlled team of metahumans makes perfect sense. And the team as assembled is well suited to a covert ops team, with powerhouses in El Diablo, Enchantress, and Killer Croc plus the street savvy and murderous skills of Deadshot, Quinn, Boomerang, and Slipknot.
And then they piss it all away on a save-the-world-from-the CGI-monster plot that has been the go-to of far too many films in this rewatch.
The Suicide Squad is a covert ops team. In case we’ve forgotten that, Waller says as much when she’s pitching the notion to the Joint Chiefs. A movie starring them should feel like a Mission: Impossible movie or The Dirty Dozen.
Instead, David Ayer gives us a plot that would not be out of place as the plot of a Justice League or Avengers movie: heroes band together to save the world from a massive threat.
That isn’t what the Squad is all about, though. They don’t save the world from big-ass threats, they protect the country from subtle threats. They work in the shadows, not in big fights in train stations.
They’re also criminals who are only in it for themselves. Seeing them come together in the bar and decide to ante up and be heroes anyhow doesn’t feel earned in the least. The camaraderie among the team members is utterly unconvincing as well. It’s a good thing Deadshot said he didn’t kill women and children, because it’s the only reason I believe he didn’t kill Quinn when Waller ordered him to. I have a much easier time believing that Quinn would actually join Enchantress in helping take over the world than I would that she’d kill her to protect the rest of the team. El Diablo calls them his family before he sacrifices himself, and I just don’t see it.
The movie suffers from lukewarm antagonists. Cara Delivingne and Alain Chanoine are nowhere as the mystical villains, and Jared Leto’s Joker is—okay? I guess? I dunno, he’s got his moments, and he feels right for the part, but he’s underwhelming. He doesn’t dominate the action the way Cesar Romero, Mark Hamill, Jack Nicholson, and Heath Ledger did.
Worse, though, is Jay Kinnaman, who is completely DOA as Flag. Robert Kanigher’s version of Flag from the original Suicide Squad was an un-nuanced stiff, but John Ostrander made him a tormented soldier with trust issues and a deadly mix of a death wish with a fear of death. Kinnaman is pretty much Kanigher’s incredibly boring Flag, and I really wish Tom Hardy had stuck with the role, because he could’ve given us Ostrander’s much more interesting one.
Will Smith is frustrating here, because Smith can act, but most of the time he’s just called upon to play The Will Smith Character, which costs us getting to see Deadshot, instead getting Assassin Will Smith. Mind you, The Will Smith Character is always fun and entertaining and gets most of the best lines, which Smith delivers with strong emotions and impeccable timing, but I really wanted to see Deadshot.
Viola Davis is the best live-action Waller we’ve gotten so far, though the script makes her frustratingly ineffective—the whole plot happens because she wasn’t able to keep Enchantress in check, and she’s captured and rendered helpless, needing to be rescued by her team, and in the end she’s asking Bruce Wayne for help. Still, she nails the character’s steel and resolve perfectly, and I hope they bring her back for The Suicide Squad, as the Squad without a strong Waller is pointless.
Jay Hernandez (currently being all charming in the new Magnum P.I. series) gives El Diablo heart, and you feel for him when he sacrifices himself. Jai Courtney doesn’t elevate Boomerang beyond “asshole,” but the script doesn’t help matters. (As I said above, Nick Tarabay was way more effective on Arrow in the same role.) Adewale Akinnoye-Agbaje is clearly having fun as Croc, and Karen Fukuhara is quietly effective as Katana.
But the star of this movie is Margot Robbie, who simply nails it, perfectly channeling Arleen Sorkin’s Brooklyn attitude as Quinn. She takes over the movie, absolutely nailing Quinn’s psychosis, her fatal attraction to “Mr. J,” her warped sense of humor, and her weird sense of loyalty. It’s hardly surprising that, three years later, conventions are still filled with cosplayers in “Daddy’s Li’l Monster” t-shirts and short-shorts carrying baseball bats…
Let’s hope that James Gunn, who pretty much did Suicide Squad in Space with the two Guardians of the Galaxy movies, can get it right next time.
After this, we turn the clock back a century to World War I, as the world is introduced to Wonder Woman.
Keith R.A. DeCandido compiled a collection of quotes by and about Batman for the Insight Editions Tiny Book Batman: Quotes from Gotham City, which will be out in July. Also coming in July is his Alien novel Isolation, based in part on the 2014 videogame of the same name.
“Karen Fukuhara is quietly effective as Katana.”
Very quietly, if so. I can’t remember a single thing she is given to say or do.
“The Task Force X recruits are implanted with their nanobombs and sent on their first mission: to retrieve Waller, who is covering up her own involvement in this disaster (she goes so far as to kill the other people in the safehouse with her).”
This was, I remember very clearly, the exact moment this film lost me.
I’m a huge SS fan and a huge Waller fan. I was willing the movie to be good, but it was underwhelming. But then, this scene.
Don’t get me wrong. Amanda Waller would 100% kill those people if she felt it was really necessary. But the casual way she does this, and the fact that the film never bothers to establish why it’s necessary, beyond the laziest writer’s idea in the toolkit, ‘ruthless character covering up’, is wildly out of character.
Waller is ruthless but also human. She isn’t one of those characters who can’t care for others – she can and does. She views people as expendable, but only in extremis, and she hates wasting the lives of her staff if it can be avoided. Her confrontation with Tolliver early in the comics establishes this clearly. If you’re writing Waller in such a way that you have her casually bump off innocent nameless underlings to establish how ruthless and amoral she is, you got the character all wrong. And if you get Waller wrong, you failed to do a good Suicide Squad.
The film has many other faults – introducing the main characters over and over, taking too long to get started, barely bothering with a plot, sidelining half the cast, and generally looking like what it is, a cludged-together re-edit of a different film. But getting Amanda wrong was the thing that really disappointed me.
Not sure where this falls among the general consensus, but in its way, I enjoyed it more than BvS or Man of Steel. Maybe due to expectations, but it just seemed a little more fun and colorful.
But ultimately you’re spot on about it and the way the characters were used. Aside from Quinn, the one thing I remember the most from this movie was the weird Enchantress dancing.
Funny thing to me about Amanda Waller – awhile back my son got into this animated series which was basically a DC boarding school that was mostly comprised of the female DC characters (heroes and villains mostly coexisting), although there were a few token males so it wasn’t a girls’ school (which I found somewhat amusing). The whole show definitely had a more cutesy feel to it, but the principal of the school was Amanda Waller, and I just found this really funny.
This should have been a fun movie. Instead, it’s gray and dreary and lifeless. And, the biggest sin of all, it’s boring. Snyder, and his infectious “dark” DC universe (as in, literally dark. There are such things as bright colors!) just about destroyed the DC movie universe, until Wonder Woman came along…
NumberNone: yeah, none of the live action Wallers can hold a candle to the Justice League Unlimited animated series, with the incomparable CCH Pounder voicing her. That was Amanda……
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I remember watching this movie when it came out and during the opening scene where Amanda Waller asks the politicians what will they do if the next Superman is a bad guy, I couldn’t help but think, “I don’t know, but one thing I can tell you is that there’s absolutely no way in hell that an evil Superman will be hindered at all by the likes of Harley Quinn and Captain Boomerang.”
I always felt like I was the only person on the planet who really enjoyed and appreciated Jared Leto as the Joker.
I so wanted Suicide Squad to be good but its like they started making one movie and then halfway thru production they started making a different movie. (which apparently is basically what happened, the suits got involved and ruined it)
I really enjoyed Robbie’s performance; about as close to Harlequin as you’re gonna get in a live action film.
Leto as the Joker was . . . interesting. I don’t get how a guy that far out and chaotic could possibly be a crime lord, but its a movie.
Will Smith was a waste; he did a good job, but they didn’t need the big name and the expectations that go with it in this movie. A lesser star in his place may have made a difference in how the movie went.
And Katana, I so wanted to see more of her character. Something about chicks with soul-stealing swords.
This movie is sooo bad. It pulls a “we misfits are a family” theme in the end that is totally unearned. Let’s compare it to another movie that tried to do that, that most people love much more than I do: Guardians of the Galaxy.
At least in GotG there was the sense of lots of time spent in a unisex prison and outside it with the main characters. The story of the movie spans probably something like a week, which is much more than the one or two days (really, two days is stretching it) that the Suicide Squad spend with each other. No way can people call each other a family with such little time.
Edit: By the way, the Cara de levigne dancing in the background was ridiculous. I wonder if the director intended it to be funny, because it made me lose completely any respect (or fear) for the villain.
@7 I feel like you are probably correct :p
I can’t give this movie a fair shake. It is probably fine. I just have a problem with the whole concept of a convict army in basic principle that I cannot get past. I had to do a whole lot of research on use of convict labour in the last couple of years, and I can’t even go back to watch The Dirty Dozen (a movie I used to watch with my grandfather, and previously one of my “chicken soup” movies) without feeling uneasy about the whole thing.
I guess if a person hasn’t read up on the abuses of power involved in the basic set up, then Dirty Dozen but with less Lee Marvin and more Superpowers is a fine movie. And that is fine.
@7 Jason D: You need not feel that way. Frankly Joker was one of the only parts I appreciated in this movie. (Viola Davis was another. Margot nailed the character DESPITE her completely overt sexualization.) Jared Leto’s version was a bit much in the running-up before the movie, with his tats and his grill (though popular headcanon involves Batman’s fist and Jason Todd’s death) but I found him absolutely terrifying. He has the mentally-unbalanced Mark Hamill mode right up until you really piss him off, then he’s Pure Evil Heath Ledger. Which is almost appropriate — Heath Ledger also played two Jokers, quiet and homicidal. Leto’s Joker just doesn’t really do quiet.
“What will we do if the next Superman isn’t so nice?”
Justice League response, “Reanimate Superman’s corpse and let him deal with it?”
Yeah, DC was batting three for zero after the TDK trilogy ended and it was really sad. Thankfully, A new injection of life for this Shaky DCEU was just around the corner.
I saw this movie after getting a free pass from the theater when the sound system blew out during a showing of Star Trek Beyond that caused it to run late. I still feel like I paid too much. Listing the good things in this movie is a quick, easy task:
1. Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn
2. Will Smith as Deadshot
3. Ben Affleck’s quick scenes as Batman …
… and that’s it. The pacing is godawful and it’s also clear that the ending got tinkered with greatly to up the stakes with some really awfully fake CGI of disasters around the world. Enchantress is a HORRIBLE villain and de Lavigne is a horrible actress. Also, it really points to the big fallacy of nearly all superhero films in that the villains can crack a planet wide open, but the fate of the world is decided by a fistfight.
Leto’s Joker is a miss in just about every way – the biggest being the AWFUL laugh he affects. I get that he’s trying to do something different, but having so flat an affect is just the wrong approach for the Joker.
The studio’s meddling is felt in nearly every frame of his movie. The repeated introductions of the characters and the over the top destruction at the end are two big examples. I have the feeling that the rough edges being filed off of Deadshot’s character is another decision made by the suits.
I put off seeing Wonder Woman until it was nearly out of theaters as a result of this film. Luckily, I was convinced otherwise by my best friend, who said it was his favorite superhero flick since the first Captain America …
I also saw this movie with a free ticket, or I wouldn’t have seen it at all. Keith, you pretty much said everything I had to say about this movie, even down to the mention of The Will Smith Character, so there’s not much to add.
The only point where I disagree with you is Katana. I have no idea what she was doing in this movie at all.
@15 twels: Actually, I heard Will Smith wanted to make changes to the role. He wanted Deadshot to not be a douche and have some redeeming character arc, especially if it could include being a dad. Apparently he only wants to do Parental roles lately?
@17 Maybe he’ll be up for a Fresh Prince: The Next Generation show then?
This film is only slightly less of a mess than Batman v Superman. It’s the second DCEU film in a row that astonished me with the sheer, monumental incompetence of its storytelling, beyond practically any film I’ve ever seen outside of Mystery Science Theater 3000. The structure is horrible. The first act is an extended exercise in walking to the plot — just one character backstory introduction after another after another, without any actual storyline or stakes established to give us a reason to care about any of it. And then the film jumps directly into a third-act catastrophe before the main characters have even met each other. The rest of it has its moments, but any goodwill has been squandered by then.
Robbie’s Harley is certainly the high point, but they handled the character poorly by depicting a version that’s 20 years out of date, the version that’s hopelessly trapped in her abusive relationship with the Joker, rather than the more assertive, independent version in the modern comics who’s broken free of that abuse and become empowered. By having her end up just as trapped as she started, the movie failed its most impressive character.
As for Leto’s Joker — meh. I’ve seen Leto in two movies, this and Blade Runner 2049, and I found his performances in both to be stilted, stagey, affected, and superficial. He apparently makes this big thing of being a “method” actor and getting deeply into character on set, including some really crass and abusive pranks on his co-stars in Squad, but it seems like nothing more than an excuse to be a jerk to people. Method acting is supposed to be about internalizing a character so you can play it naturalistically without any artificiality or affectation, but Leto’s performances are nothing but artificiality and affectation. So I have no respect at all for him as an actor. And he’s easily the most forgettable live-action Joker of all time.
Viola Davis was an utterly perfect casting choice for Waller. I think I was actually hoping ahead of time that they’d cast her in the role, and they did. It’s a shame the script let her down.
Not much to say about anyone else. It’s cool that Katana was in the film because I know Mike W. Barr and I’m glad he gets royalties for the use of the character he co-created, but otherwise I don’t see why she was in this film at all. (Interesting, though, that both live-action Katana actresses have such similar names, Arrow‘s Rila Fukushima and SS’s Karen Fukuhara.)
@11/random22: I think the idea of the Suicide Squad is supposed to make us uneasy. We’re not supposed to like how the government is exploiting the villains; indeed, what lets us sympathize with such villainous characters is that they’re the victims of an abusive system. Even the movie touched on that by having Wayne object to the practice and promise to shut it down.
I still don’t understand why they didn’t just adapt the (excellent) animated movie – Assault on Arkham would have given them everything they appeared to want from this mess (Joker appearance, Batman appearance, ties to the rest of the DCU) but made it much neater, and less of a CGI fest. They could throw in random cameos in the “patients” of Arkham, giving them fuel for later Batman movies too…
It’s Joel Kinnaman. (Real name Nordstrom, which I didn’t know before today)
@1. Numbernone: Agree with you about the Waller safe house scene. There may have been signs earlier, but that was when I went ” Pfffftt!” and checked out on this movie. That in no way made her look badass. It made her look moronic for wasting assets.
The stupidity continued when they decided a black ops, nitty gritty dirty team should face a supernatural threat. Really jarring concept and tone in a universe that had barely begun to establish itself. Tried to think of an analogy for the mismatch and words just fail me…
krad: “James Gunn, who pretty much did Suicide Squad in Space with the two Guardians of the Galaxy movies”
I thought he did Farscape in the Marvel Universe…
Yes, it’s a mess, but it’s not the fault of David Ayer. The first version of the movie had the team fighting to stop Steppenwolf from coming to Earth, using Enchantress as his pawn. But the WB execs, spineless cretins that they are, heard the split response on BvS, they panicked (not for the first or last time, sadly) and hastily reshot it, substituting Incubus for Steppenwolf (one horned villain for another) and making a complete mess of the Joker’s storyline in the process.
I kind of like it, warts and all. Leto’s Joker is at his best when he’s interacting with Harley Quinn, but the reshoots and reedits pretty much destroyed everything else they planned to do with him. I can’t blame him or Ayer. They made a different movie, after all. I love the cast and there’s occasional moments which show the film it originally was.
The worst part? It’s still better than Joss Whedon’s Super Friends.
@CLB: “including some really crass and abusive pranks on his co-stars in Squad“
One report I read said he sent used condoms to co-stars, which not only should have gotten him fired, but plain make him an asshole. A juvenile asshole. That’s a misreading of the agent of chaos and mayhem Joker is meant to be.
I’m not looking forward to the new Joker movie (Phoenix is just as mannered a performer as Leto. I’ve only liked him in Her and maybe that was an aberration), but at least it’s not Leto starring.
Wow. He sounds awful, and definitely like it’s just an excuse to be an asshole and then play the whole ‘what! It’s a joke! It’s just method acting, man!’ thing to gaslight his victims. Gross.
@almuric: I agree with on that
@krad: did you watch either of the director’s cuts for this or BvS ?
templarsteel: both for both. All they did, really, was make them longer…..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@23/Sunspear: Joaquin Phoenix is also the reason I’m not interested in the Joker movie, but in my case it’s because of his performance in Her, not in spite of it. I liked the script for Her, but while I watched it, I found myself thinking, “I’d love to see this movie made with a different star and by a different director.” (I found the directing too self-absorbed in its own technique at the expense of the story.)
@23, 27 – To each their own, I guess. Joaquin Phoenix is one of the most revered actors alive today. Since Daniel Day Lewis retired, he’s probably the best actor out there.
This movie is a mess. It has it’s good parts but it’s a plotting mess.
I haven’t seen anyone mention the helicopters. They mention in the beginning they can’t send it helicopters because they’ll be shot down… and then EVERYONE tries to send in a Helicopter… and they get shot down. What was the entire point of sending in the squad in the first place if as soon as they get Waller they call in a Helicopter to try and pick her up?
Not to mention, why is the squad being sent in with two squads of military guys? Why not just send in the Military guys?
So much wrong with this movie.
This movie is ugly and boring and just awful, which is astonishing to me because I loved the trailer! Talk about a complete 180 from expectations to reality. Glad I never paid to see it in a theater. And I never heard of the Suicide Squad until this movie was announced so I thought it was a real cool concept. Oh well. Also, at this point well into his career, Will Smith is just playing Will Smith. Yes, the guy can act and is charming or else he wouldn’t have been so successful in the first place but every movie is essentially the same character which actively takes me out of the movie because the schtick is annoying. So good luck with that Aladdin thing!
@krad: Whatever Joaquin Phoenix does with the Joker, it’s not meant to be a part of the DCEU continuity or universe or whatever. It exists as its own stand-alone mediation on the Joker’s psychosis and I believe takes place in the 1980’s. So there is the possibility of Jared Leto still playing his version of the Joker in the DCEU especially as Harley Quinn will continue on it at least two planned/in-production movies.
Also, I’m a fan of Pheonix from a lot of his prior work and look forward to and am optimistic for his take on the Joker. I imagine it will be more reality-based regular guy has a mental breakdown and less Leto over-the-top comic villain.
“Reality-based regular guy” and “the Joker” are practically mutually exclusive. It’s one of several reasons why I’m very leery of Joker…..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I haven’t seen anyone else bring this up yet, so I apologize if they have, but krad wrote “And then there’s Harley Quinn, who was never actually associated with the Squad until this movie, though she’s part of the comics version now.”
That’s not really true. At least from my memory, she started being a member of the Squad as of the relaunch during the New 52 (she’s front and centre on the cover of issue one), so that would be before Man of Steel came out. Technically, she was also on it in the animated “Batman: Assault on Arkham” in 2014, but they may have started working on this film by then so I can’t be sure there’s no link there.
@30/GHiller: Of course the Phoenix film is out of continuity, but I think whether Leto returns depends less on continuity and more on real-world factors. Audience and critical response are a part of it, and the lukewarm reaction at best to Leto’s Joker would reduce the likelihood of his reappearance. Also, actors’ behavior behind the scenes can affect their career prospects, and to all accounts, Leto’s behavior on the Suicide Squad set was atrocious, abusive, and deeply unprofessional. I’d be surprised if anyone involved would even want to work with him again.
You what sucks about Leto? he’s apparently involved in Tron 3…. Damn, talk about dashing my hopes.
Yup, Harley Quinn was part of the Squad before the movie. And whatever the myriad problems the movie has, the public really embraced the character.
@31: Yes, I can understand that but that’s what makes me all the more curious to see how the writers/director/actor all combine to make it a feasible trip from point A to point B. Ya know, like how did Anakin Skywalker succumb to the Dark Side to become Darth Vader? Perhaps Joker will be an unmitigated disaster or it could be brilliant. I’m holding out hope for the latter.
@33: I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what happens with Leto. I read about his on-set behavior/method acting and it’s gross but so far haven’t heard about him not specifically being invited back to the franchise. He’s still got name recognition and he’s “Oscar-winning Jared Leto”. I actually like the idea of two concurrent Joker characterizations going on in the cinematic marketplace. I think people are smart enough to realize they don’t exist in the same continuity and this way people can compare and choose favorites!
@34: Harley Quinn/Margot Robie was one of the sole redeeming factors of the movie. Robie is currently Hollywood’s “It Girl” and deservedly so, so good for her that she’s risen like the phoenix from the muck that was this film and get’s her very own spotlight in a spin-off.
@35/GHiller: F. Murray Abraham was an Oscar and Golden Globe winner for Amadeus, but apparently his career went into a slump not long thereafter because he let success go to his head and acted in a way that alienated filmmakers (at least according to a recent Facebook post by Adam-Troy Castro, which is what sparked my earlier comment about Leto).
And I’ve got no problem in principle with two different screen versions of the Joker existing at once. It’s just the current actors I’m not thrilled by.
@36: Oh, I don’t doubt that someone could be award-winning/A-list or whatever and then their own bumbling behavior causes their swift downfall. Murray-Abraham as you cited is one example. But I don’t think Leto is an apt comparison because he’s apparently still in demand and IMHO, Leto is what a certain fan base call a “heartthrob” and in our looks and youth-obsessed society, he can (and probably has) gotten away with such indiscretions such as those alleged on the “Suicide Squad” set than perhaps someone of Murray-Abraham’s age/looks/fanbase would not have. Not saying that’s right but that’s the world we live in.
On the whole, I enjoyed this film. It’s not great, but it was an entertaining enough ride. Oddly enough, I’m one of the few that didn’t like the Harley Quinn inclusion – what does a mentally unstable woman with a baseball bat bring to the team? Nothing that I can see, another regular soldier would have contributed more. At least the other members had some specific skills. It’s hard to avoid the conclusion she was just there to be objectified and be eye candy for the male audience.
The other complaint I have is the pacing. The bar scene where they squad bond just brings the film to a screeching halt, I’ve got no idea why they wasted the momentum they’d built up by stopping to have everyone chat. Want the squad to bond? Fine, but you can do that in plenty of other ways.
@38/Geekpride: As other commenters pointed out, Harley Quinn has been associated with the Suicide Squad in the comics since 2011, and she’s generally one of the most popular DC characters of the past quarter-century. So there was certainly more reason for her inclusion than just sex appeal, although it’s true that the film did play up that aspect.
I thought Harley was from New Jersey?
It was…it was aiight.
I’m never one who particularly enjoys villains being glorified in general, so I had a rather low bar here. The humor worked for me in places. Smith’s Deadshot definitely felt like Will Smith, (Jaden’s analysis of his father’s acting remains true all these years later) and if you don’t know Deadshot then it’s fine.
Robbie’s Harley to me lacked a little bit of the lightness of the original to me, but other than that it was an excellent performance and she certainly brought the fun, which is the entire point of Harley. I agree that having her still in a relationship with The Joker makes no sense, since they’re going with, been in the game 20 years Batman, meaning Quinn should’ve been long completed with her character arc in that regard, become best friends with Pam, and gone out into the world and left Puddin behind.
I loved Diablo, reminds me of Michael Burnham in that way that he’s not looking for forgiveness, he never had any intention of even forgiving himself.
Viola was every bit as scary as Waller as anyone could imagine, though I would’ve liked to have seen Octavia Spencer in the role.
I swear Warner Bros executives need to learn to sit down, shut up, and count their money.
As an overall movie I found Suicide Squad fairly forgettable, but for me it is saved by a few of the characters. I liked Smith’s Deadshot, and Robbie’s Harley, like most people, but I also believed in Captain Boomerang for the first time. In the comics he is just that one step too far for me, but this movie made me think that Harkness could be a thug with a gimmick. I also liked Delevigne’s June Moon/Enchantress. As Moon I could believe that she would open the vial under uncontrolled conditions, and hence be possessed by the Enchantress, I could believe that her vulnerability would cause Flagg to fall for her. The initial savagery of her Enchantress really worked for me too.
The entire second half of the movie, basically where the plot starts moving, is a failure though. I would have liked to see these characters in a different movie. Maybe, as suggested by krad, something Dirty Dozen-esque. Definitely something where injury and even death seemed like more of a possibility.
arguably the most important and impressive non-powered character in the DC universe (if not all of mainstream comics): Amanda Waller.
I dunno, I’d probably have picked Batman, but everyone’s entitled to their own opinion.
@38 – You know, I’m so used to Harley Quinn and her popularity, that I didn’t even stop to think about why she would be picked. You’re right; it makes no sense. She’s just a psychopath with no powers. It’s like recruiting Jeffrey Dahmer to be on a Special Forces squad.
@40/RedIII: There’s no requirement for adaptations to have things happen in the same sequence as they did in the original version — look at the X-Men movies where Iceman and Angel are a generation younger than Storm and Havok is a generation older than Cyclops. Adaptations don’t take place in the same reality as their source materials, so they can change whatever they want. Part of the value of adaptations is that they can distill the best parts of the original narrative and bring more focus and unity to a story or character arc that only developed gradually and piecemeal in the original, or reshuffle characters and relationships in ways that open up new possibilities.
And that’s the problem with Suicide Squad‘s version of Harley. It’s not about continuity, but about the film’s failure to distill her character arc in a meaningful way. It just latched onto the beginning of her arc in the comics as the Joker’s obsessive, abused girlfriend and failed to move her beyond that point, failed to utilize the most interesting and important aspects of who she’s become as a character over the past 20 years. So it was a waste of the character’s potential.
Also, just in general in any movie, adapted or original, you want your lead characters to grow and change. As a rule, a movie should focus on a critical moment or decision in its lead characters’ lives. There should be a reason why that particular moment in their lives is the one you choose to focus on. But Harley didn’t grow or change here, so the character was ill-served, even if you only consider the film itself.
It was also disappointing and frustrating that, in a movie industry and cultural climate still plagued by misogyny, such a potentially strong female lead ended the movie still trapped as the victim of an abusive man, and that the movie didn’t necessarily portray that as a bad thing, depending on whom you ask.
@43/Austin: Most of the Squad members have no powers, or at least nothing more than exceptional human skills, like Deadshot’s and Captain Boomerang’s extraordinary aim with their weapons. Harley is an exceptional gymnast and martial artist, and she’s also highly intelligent and cunning despite her apparent ditziness.
ajay: I should perhaps have said non-powered and non-costumed characters. :)
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I’ve edited the intro part of the rewatch to remove the reference to Quinn not being associated with the Squad prior to the movie, and apologies for the failure of research; and to add “non-costumed” to the description of Waller, as ajay’s point about Batman (and other folks who don’t actually have powers) is well taken.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@44 – Good point about the other non-powered characters, though Deadshot makes some sense as that skill is very militaristic. And is it superhuman? I’m not really familiar with Deadshot, comic book-wise. But Captain Boomerang is hilariously ridiculous. A boomerang? Really? Probably worse than the MCU version of Hawkeye. And I’m not even sure who or what Slipnot was, or what, if anything, was special about him.
I think I just realized that the main problem with picking non-powered baddies is because they joined a military unit for this movie, rather than being a single covert ops team, as Keith pointed out. It still wouldn’t make much sense to throw them against a world-ending supernatural threat. IMO they should be used battling human threats, but ones where the government doesn’t want to risk American soldiers.
I don’t know that Waller even qualifies as “the most important and impressive non-powered, non-costumed character in the DC universe (if not all of mainstream comics)”.
Lex Luthor? Alfred Pennyfeather? Jim Gordon? And that’s in DC Comics alone.
Judge Dredd? (Not a costume; that’s his uniform. Same as all the other judges wear.) Evey Hammond?
Suicide Squad is a B-list comic at best, made into a D-list movie, and Waller is a supporting character in it, and I guarantee that you can be an avid reader of comics (including DC comics) all your life and have no idea who she is.
@47/Austin: As I said, Deadshot is not a metahuman, just a guy with extraordinarily perfect aim. He was originally just a one-shot ’40s Batman adversary, a top-hatted vigilante rival for Batman who proved to be staging the crimes he purported to stop with his uncanny (and nonlethal) trick shooting. He was revived in Steve Englehart & Marshall Rogers’s brief but legendary run in the ’70s which reinvented several ’40s villains like Deadshot and Hugo Strange with darker twists, and he became a hardcore assassin and gained his trademark armor suit and mask. That was the version of the character that Ostrander & Yale picked up and ran with in their definitive Suicide Squad run.
Similarly, Captain Boomerang is simply a master practitioner of the art of boomerang-throwing, a Silver Age Flash adversary who became a supervillain literally by answering an ad — a sporting-goods company wanted to hire a boomerang expert to become a marketing mascot for their new line of boomerangs, creating the Captain Boomerang costume and name, and Digger Harkness decided to take up the job and use it as a cover for boomerang-based crimes, because of course nobody would ever suspect a highly publicized, celebrity boomerang expert to be involved in a rash of boomerang crimes that started immediately after he arrived! (1960s comics, everyone!)
And you’re right — the movie was just totally the wrong mission for them. The Squad is for black ops and dirty tricks, not big public military operations. Sticking them into a fight against a big world-threatening swirly thing was a profound mismatch.
I had thought they picked Harlequin to be in the squad specifically to lure in the Joker with his high powered bad boy hit squad. My thinking was that the Joker had managed to latch onto an Enchantress super weapon of some sort and that explained the second weird geek in the helicopter. And that when Harley was dropped from the copter joker handed her the weapon and dropped her because geek number one didn’t get the null code for her bomb locked in. Because she was dropping before the chopper blew. And that Dead shot took joker out because joker had ratted out dead shot for putting the thumbs on one of his projects.
I absolutely didn’t understand why Fuller seemed to insert herself into a situation AFTER she had sent her team in to rescue her FROM it. Or does no one else remember her giving the orders to her team? I thought that may have been a part of the big joker weapon pass-off. But for that to happen Fuller would have had to do something. With the weapon.
As for her shooting her associates, I thought that was to prevent them from morphing into zombie killing machines as soon as they hit the zombie swamp dust in the street that the safe house air was keeping them rebreathing and changing. Because her associates knew “the plan” the info would automatically go to Enchantress and stop the weapon from joker being used.
I thought Flagg had the letters because dead shot couldn’t be controlled nor contained without resourcing his daughter. So Enchantress put a whammy, a gheas on the letters to make them into a supernatural leash for Dead shot. So as long as Flagg had them dead shot would play tame.
I also at first thought slipknot wasn’t dead but had been used as in a holographic “assassination” to control the others and would reappear.
On the whole I found Enchantress especially embarrassing to watch. Worst dance scene ever. Even Bernadette from the Mary Tyler Moore show knew how to shake her can better. I would have totally bought a Shakira or a Jennifer Lopez Enchantress. Like why didn’t a South American Goddess look more.. South American?
And the “gifts” Enchantress offered were quite crap.
What I didn’t get was why the squad guys specifically didn’t change. Into zombies. Unless the zombie dust only worked on sane people and that squad was protected because they were insane.
Regarding Harley Quinn being cast into the abused victim role again, I distinctly remember watchign the LEGO Batman movie and thinking, “Huh, I like this portrayal better than the one in Suicide Squad”.
I have yet to see a David Ayer film worth watching. Fury was a tiresome slog of a war film, and everything else is forgettable crime drivel or some variance thereof. A second-rate Antoine Fuqua.
And Suicide Squad is a mess. Everything that happens in the film is either a coincidence or in the need for the plot to head that particular way. The characters never drive the story, and none of them have what I’d call meaningful arcs. For instance, who exactly shoots down their helicopter? Why does it happen other than the need for the squad to be forced to tread their path on the ground? It’s the most artificial plot twist conceivable.
This is even worse than the Snyder Superman films. At least, you can tell in those films where they could have fixed the course. I can’t think of a single aspect of this film that could be salvaged. Other than the casting, that is. The actors were well chosen. That’s how little praise I can muster. Deadshot would be an interesting character in any other film, especially with Smith on the role. Harley Quinn, as interesting as Robbie plays her, shifts back and forth between feminist icon and damsel pining for the abusive boyfriend (and what a waste of a Joker; derivative and also plot-dependant).
This film is the prime example of misleading trailers. You could never tell from that teaser this was going to be so dull and uninspired, especially with the song.
…..except for Training Day and U-571, but those films had good directors driving them.
U-571 is the absolute worst and I’d have it stricken from the global connected memory if I could. An offence to history, and a movie that by its mere existence has lowered the global IQ by five points as it is so bad.
Remake it under the title “HMS Bulldog and U-110” and I’ll change my opinion though.
I agree with so many of these comments. This movie made a godawful hash out of a great and simple concept, and squandered a lot of goodwill in the process. Instead of a sweet black ops story featuring the scum of the DCU, we got a bunch of villains saving the world from a big glowy hole in the sky or whatever. A shame, given how many excellent stories the comics had which could have been mined for inspiration.
Poor Slipknot. He was a C-list Firestorm villain who got his arm blown off on his first mission in the comics, and that’s pretty much his claim to fame, until getting his head blown off here.
I hope that James Gunn can salvage the concept of the Suicide Squad and give us something more worthy of its history.
I enjoyed this film, and I really liked Leto’s Joker, Waller (although I wish we could get CCH Pounder in live action too), and Boomerang. Harley Quinn is pretty well portrayed, too.
Having said that, I do agree that they wasted the setup on a bland plot that could have been used for any superhero team… which this is not. Sadly, it does not do justice to the amazing comic that Ostrander’s Suicide Squad is.
I did not buy the “we’re a family now” thing, and they royally fucked up Deadshot and made him just a vehicle for Will Smith.
@22 – Almuric: It’s definitely better than Justice League.
@42 – ajay: Batman has powers. They’re just super amazing dooper dooper ninja training, and not stuff he was born with or received by accident, but when he can stand up (and beat) in combat to superpowered beings, that means he can’t be considered “non-powered”.
@57/MaGnUs: “but when he can stand up (and beat) in combat to superpowered beings, that means he can’t be considered “non-powered”.”
I disagree. It’s a perennial fictional trope for a hero without special advantages to face a villain who does have special advantages, and yet be able to defeat them through superior skill, ingenuity, resourcefulness, determination, etc. It’s missing the point to define it purely as power vs. power; the fact that the hero is less powerful than their adversary but wins anyway is what makes their victory heroic and impressive. Batman doesn’t overpower his metahuman foes, he outmaneuvers, outthinks, outlasts, and (let’s face it) outspends them.
You’re welcome to disagree. To me, Batman has long overdone it to be considered non-powered.
Calling Batman superpowered because he can beat superpowered foes is like calling the Ewoks a space-age superpower because they can beat Stormtroopers, or calling Captain Kirk a godlike supercomputer because he can talk godlike supercomputers into self-destruction. The whole narrative point is that the heroes are not on the same power level as the foe, yet still prevail.
Look, you’re obviously not going to agree with me, but what I mean is that Batman routinely fights on the same level as superpowered people, so his skills and equipment are so far above what the vast majority of humans in his world can do, that I don’t believe calling him non-powered flies.
@61/MaGnUs: What you’re talking about is the credibility of the execution, the way that different characters’ nominal power levels are implausibly amplified or downplayed to serve the narrative needs of a fight scene. I’m talking about the in-universe intent, and about the definition of the word “superpower.” In comics terms, a human who gains exceptional ability through extraordinary training, skill, or innate potential, rather than through some form of sci-fi transformation or mutation, supernatural phenomenon, alien influence, cyborg enhancement, or the like, is considered “peak human” rather than superhuman. Superpowers are things that no human could achieve through training or skill alone. (With some exceptions in certain categories of fiction, such as the nigh-supernatural martial arts abilities that ninjas or wuxia characters are able to attain through years of intensive training, or the nebulously defined ability of the characters in Kamen Rider Hibiki to transform into demonlike Oni by following the proper training regimen.)
You can see an example of the difference between nominal power levels and story-driven execution in the “inverse ninja rule.” Typically, a single ninja or other such antagonist will be all but unbeatable for the heroes, but a horde of ninjas/antagonists who supposedly have equal training will be far easier to defeat individually, in inverse proportion to their number. (See Avengers: Age of Ultron for an example.) It doesn’t mean they’re actually losing power in-story, just that the power levels are fudged for the sake of the narrative.
By the same token, the only reason the Ewoks beat the Empire is because they had the script on their side. Realistically, one of those dinky Ewok arrows wouldn’t have penetrated a good silk shirt, but they went through Stormtrooper armor like it was paper, because the story demanded their victory. Similarly, the reason Batman is able to hold his own in fights with superpowered foes is not that he has superpowers, just that he has plot armor.
No, characters like Batman in comic books achieve things by training that are on the same level as some superpowers. But again, you don’t agree with me, so there is no point in going in circles here. I’ve read a lot of superhero comics in 30+ years of reading, as you probably have, and we just have different takes on this particular subject.
It’s not about their level, it’s about their definition in-story. The word “superpower” is used a specific way in comic-book terminology, referring to the source or nature of the power rather than merely its efficacy. Batman is peak human, not superhuman. But many peak human heroes can hold their own with superhuman heroes and villains, because that’s an accepted trope of the storytelling. Not just Batman, but Green Arrow, Black Widow, characters like that.
Yes, semantically, “supowerpower” means one thing, but in practice, it ends up being a different thing. And yes, I’m sure you have yet another argument to make against my opinion, but there’s no need to keep this going.
I think if Captain America can be considered to be a super-powered hero, then so can Batman. If I am remembering correctly, the super soldier serum is just supposed to give Cap the peak of human abilities — but this is still within the limit of what is possible for humans. Batman achieved through training the body that the Captain first obtained through his serum, and then they both have hand-to-hand combat skills on top of that.
Plus Batman knows esoteric meditation techniques and other stuff that give him abilities that most people can’t achieve.
@66/vinsentient: To me, “super-” implies that the powers are attained through something beyond normal means, some fantasy/SF element — otherwise they’re just powers. And Steve Rogers’s abilities do surpass natural peak-human abilities in several ways, according to his Marvel Database entry. One, they’re permanent as long as the serum is in his body — he won’t lose his strength if he stops exercising (unlike MCU Thor). Two, his durability is superhuman, his muscles unnaturally dense and his body more resistant to injury than any normal human’s. Three, his reflexes are superhumanly fast, even letting him dodge bullets. Four, he never feels muscle fatigue. Five, he has accelerated healing and can recover from crippling injuries, and he can’t get sick, drunk, or drugged. Six, he has “limitless information storage” in his brain, as well as eidetic recall and instantaneous learning. Seven, he can accelerate his perception to superspeed. Eight, his aging is slowed. (And several of these combined explain his ability to survive being frozen in the ice since WWII.)
So Cap isn’t a good analogy for Batman. Their abilities may overlap as far as the “peak human” stuff goes, but Cap has a lot more abilities that are well beyond human.
I still remember the basic five classifications used in the superhero MMO City of Heroes, distilled from decades of comic lore:
Magic (or mystical) origin: Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Wonder Woman
Mutation: X-men (Marvel basically owns this one; can’t think of a DC mutant at the moment)
Science: Spider-man, Hulk, Superman (SF origin), Captain America
(very bad science in Hulk’s case, as a gamma explosion would’ve shredded Banner’s DNA, not transformed it. Just imagine an unprotected human walking around near the Chernobyl reactor after the explosion.)
Technology: Iron Man, Lex Luthor
Natural (training): Batman
These, of course, overlap. Technology can be a subset of Science: it takes more than pure tech to build Iron Man armor. Mutation can be a subset of Science.
Thor is mythological, but also a space alien.
Batman obviously uses light armor and other tech.
Captain America would be banned from the Olympics or any sport for doping. This power: “he has “limitless information storage” in his brain”, I haven’t seen expressed anywhere in Cap comics, not that I’ve read them all. It’s about as ridiculous as the “infinite storage” of the Red Angel Suit.
It’s a fun lil’ game to play: where to slot various characters and find where the overlaps are. DC in some ways avoids the semantic problem of the word “superhero” by using “meta” instead. They also have the one and only original Superman. Why compete with that?
Isn’t Batman, in addition to all of his peak human physical abilities, also a super genius? Basically, the perfect human being.
@70/Austin: Yes, which in comics terms is “peak human.” “Superhuman” or “superpowered” requires some additional SF or fantasy phenomenon granting the power. It’s not just a matter of how much ability they have, because a “perfect” human who naturally attained the peak of human abilities might be on a par with a more “imperfect” human who was artificially enhanced to the same level (like Skinny Steve being enhanced to become Captain America). Naturally, the relative ability of any two characters is going to depend on the needs of the story, and non-powered characters in team series are routinely shown to be able to hold their own in a fight with superpowered beings — e.g. Hawkeye and Black Widow in The Avengers, Green Arrow in his team-ups with Flash and Supergirl in the Arrowverse, Batman in the Justice League, etc. Thus, the distinction between “super” and “non-super” powers is more about origin than level, because the level is proportional to the character’s role in the story.
Captain Comet?
Jericho of the Teen Titans was referred to as a mutant, as was Cosmic Boy of the Legion of Super Heroes. Black Canary would qualify, being born with her powers due to a mutation in her “meta-gene,” although due to shifting terminology, she tends to be referred to as a metahuman (a term that would encompass both naturally born mutants and people who gained powers after birth, which Marvel would call “mutates”). Killer Croc’s appearance is due to a “birth defect,” which would mean he could be considered a mutant, but then you might have to extend the term to anyone with a birth defect.
The DC Database says Captain Comet is considered a mutant, but it also says his genes were altered at birth by a passing comet, which doesn’t fit the standard definition of a mutant as someone with a genetic mutation from conception, so I’m not sure why they call him that.
Sunspear: It’s silly to single out the Hulk’s origin as being bad science when all the “science” origins are bad science. Getting hit by lightning and doused in chemicals would result in poisoning and death, not super-speed. Getting bitten by a radioactive spider would result in cancer and death, not the powers of a spider. Getting doused with cosmic rays while unshielded would burn you to a crisp, not give you super-powers. And so on…..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@74/krad: Plus aliens wouldn’t be able to pass as Kansas farmboys, there are no Green or White Martians, Amazons were a myth, etc.
Although I’d say that cosmic rays should be in the “cause cancer” category, not “burn to a crisp.” Plus other radiation risks like cataracts, nervous system damage, etc. Cosmic ray exposure is pretty much a constant hazard in space, increasing the cancer risk in proportion to the length of time spent in space. Indeed, even flying in a jet increases one’s exposure compared to ground level, because there’s less depth of atmosphere to shield against them. It can be an occupational hazard for pilots as well as astronauts.
And a radioactive spider bite would be no more harmful than a regular spider bite, because the amount of contamination would be too tiny to have much effect.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-would-really-happen-if-you-were-bitten-by-a-radioa-5821798
@krad: you’re absolutely right. I just happen to have watched the latest episode of Chernobyl in which they discuss the levels of radiation on the roof closest to the exploded reactor. The machines they send out to shovel the graphite and other debris back into the reactor simply die in minutes, even seconds. They simply aren’t hardened enough and publicly the USSR was lying about how bad it was at the time. So the Germans send them a police robot that could only withstand about 1/6th the amount present. And of course they can’t/won’t ask the Americans for help. Maybe they could’ve sent a moon lander.
They end up sending out soldiers wearing lead sheeting who run out for only 90 seconds. It’s not made explicit if any went out a second time or if it was a lifetime’s limit for exposure.
But yeah, it would be a very long post discussing all the terrible science in comic characters’ origins.
One DC mutant is Karma, from the Doom Patrol. He was just born with the power.
Others are harder to find. Captain Comet was mutated by the comet that passed as he was born, Jericho received his powers from the experiments that had been done to his father, etc.
Many LSH members, such as Cosmic Boy, have the same power as the rest of their human subset (from their planet), but are usually way stronger, able to use it in a superhero capacity, while the rest usually can just do minor things.
@77/MaGnUs: “Jericho received his powers from the experiments that had been done to his father”
That is literally what a mutant is — someone who inherits a genetic mutation from a parent. By analogy, in the Marvel Universe, Franklin and Valeria Richards are mutants because they inherited the genetic mutations that were induced in their parents Reed and Sue Richards by cosmic radiation. Ditto for Peter Parker’s daughter Mayday in the MC/2 continuity.
@78 I thought, by Marvel rules, that just made them lamarkian mutates of H. Sapiens, not actual mutants of Homo Superior (Jesus, no wonder Mutants in Marvel have such poor PR, who came up with that name and was their mutant power “being smug”?) which is a separate species/sub-species depending on who is writing?
@79/random22: No, a “mutate” is someone whose genes are changed after birth, like the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, etc. A mutant is someone who inherits mutated genes, who is born with the trait. That’s not Lamarckian, that’s Darwinian. That’s how evolution actually works, by germline mutations in a parent’s gametes being inherited by the offspring.
@78 – Chris: That is what a mutant is literally, in science, but not in the way the word is used for Marvel mutants, where it is an evolution of the species instead of an isolated instance directly caused by their parent’s accidental post-birth mutation.
@81/MaGnUs: First off, we were talking about DC mutants, and I only used Marvel as an analogy. Marvel is not the measure of all things, especially not in a thread about Suicide Squad.
Second, yes, Franklin Richards is defined as a mutant and always has been, though apparently Mayday Parker isn’t for some reason, and apparently Valeria is just really smart rather than superpowered as I thought.
“an evolution of the species instead of an isolated instance directly caused by their parent’s accidental post-birth mutation.”
Again, that is how evolution works — individual mutations that provide reproductive advantage are therefore propagated and result in species change.
I feel like we’ve had this conversation before. :)
Well, given all the recent hoopla about the Snyder Cut of Justice League, looks like Ayers’ film may be getting the same treatment.
Typo: Courntey s/b Courtney
@85 – Fixed, thanks.
I am fascinated that they managed to F&(* this up while the DCAU did it TWICE. TWICE!!!!