Welcome back to the ongoing reread of Oathbringer, as we approach the Part Three Avalanche! No, it’s not starting just yet, but it soon will be; the anticipation is getting stronger with every passing chapter. This week, Shallan as Veil is out showing off, and Shallan as Shallan has trouble getting herself back. Cue up something ominous, and join in!
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. This week, there are really no Cosmere spoilers; just a brief appearance by Hoid. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan as Veil, Shallan as Shallan
WHERE: Kholinar markets, Yokska’s kitchen
WHEN: 1174.2.2.5 (Three days after Kaladin patrolled with the Wall Guard; eight days after Shallan burgled Rockfall.)
Shallan, as Veil, checks in with her regular poor-folk contacts, but is frustrated that she can’t do more. Encountering a parade of cultists, she creates a new Illusion and “becomes” a very convincing spren, but nearly loses herself to whatever is influencing the cult. Shocked, she tells the cultists to quit playing at being spren and go home to their families; she herself returns to the tailor’s shop for the night. Elhokar is in the kitchen, writing up lists of possible troops and contemplating heroism; Shallan does an idealized drawing of him before going to her room. Ishnah awaits her there, with a note inviting her to join the revel.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Swiftspren
“The Swiftspren!” he said, nudging one of the other beggars. “Look, the Swiftspren!”
AA: This is, to Shallan’s surprise, the name that’s been given to her (or rather, to Veil) in Kholinar. We’ll discuss the whole shindig below, rather than here.
Heralds
Jezrien is the Herald of Kings and patron of the Windrunners, associated with the divine attributes Protecting and Leading. Paliah is the Scholar, patron of Truthwatchers, with the divine attributes Learned and Giving.
AA: My best guess on Paliah’s presence is for Shallan’s research into ways she can actively help the starving people of Kholinar, as well has her plans to infiltrate the Cult. It’s not a solid connection, but it’s the best I’ve got. Jezrien, I’m almost positive, is for the drawing of Elhokar, when Shallan sees him as a true king.
AP: Pattern also reminds her of the Truths she spoke as Ideals when she starts to lose herself in her different personas.
Icon
The Pattern icon denotes a Shallan chapter… or at least one or two of her personae.
Epigraph
Today, I leaped from the tower for the last time. I felt the wind dance around me as I fell all the way along the eastern side, past the tower, and to the foothills below. I’m going to miss that.
—From drawer 10-1, sapphire
AA: I can’t think of anything significant to say about this Windrunner recording, except that it must have been recorded very shortly before he or she used the Oathgate to leave Urithiru for the last time. I wonder why none of them ever returned just for a nostalgic visit… or if they did, and we just don’t hear about it.
AP: Unmade infestation possibly? We don’t know why the city was abandoned, but we know the Night Mother was there for a long time before it was rediscovered. Whatever the reason, it was significant enough for the Radiants to feel the need to get everyone out in a hurry, and dangerous enough to prevent them from coming back.
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AA: You’re probably right about the Unmade infestation. From the fact that our current people are living there, the fact that the fabrials aren’t working at capacity wouldn’t necessarily be enough to keep them away. Combined with the presence of an Unmade, or two, or three… that would do it, I’d think.
Bruised & Broken
“The Swiftspren!” he said, nudging one of the other beggars. “Look, the Swiftspren!” …
“Swiftspren?” Veil asked.
“That’s you!” he said. “Yup, yup! I heard of you. Robbing rich folk all through the city, you do! And nobody can stop you, ’cuz you’re a spren. Can walk through walls, you can. White hat, white coat. Don’t always appear the same, do ya?”
AA: I have to say that there’s something very appealing about the name and its implications. Swiftspren! The “Robin Hood” of Kholinar! The effect on Veil/Shallan is… disturbing, though.
Veil smiled—her reputation was spreading. … Surely, the cult couldn’t ignore her much longer.
AA: She is, reasonably, pleased with the idea that her work should soon get the attention of the Cult. That was the (official) point, after all. But… something about all this is giving me the creeps.
“Feeding these few is something we can do.”
“So is jumping from a building,” [Pattern] said—frank, as if he didn’t understand the sarcasm he used. “But we do not do this. You lie, Shallan.”
“Veil.”
“Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm…” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.”
AA: Pattern is adorable. In anyone else, this would be sarcasm, but Pattern is just stating a fact, and reminding her that while her lies are useful, she needs truth. And… she just lies some more. Lying to herself more than Pattern, I think; she speaks as though she’s correcting him, but she’s the only one who believes Veil and Shallan are two different people.
AP: As usual, Pattern is on point. I like that he keeps her grounded, and reminds her who she is. Even as Veil, she is still Shallan.
AA: Also, why does he sound drowsy? We’ve speculated that her layers of lies are beginning to smother their bond, as they did six years earlier. Thoughts? Maybe it’s something to watch for in the rest of the book?
AP: I think that’s definitely a good theory! It makes sense that, as Shallan loses herself more and more in her constructs, the bond with Pattern would start to fuzz. She needs to get back to her core Truths.
She released [the Stormlight] in a puff, then stepped through, trailing tendrils that wrapped around her and transformed her shape.
People had gathered, as they usually did, when the Cult of Moments paraded. Swiftspren broke through them, wearing the costume of a spren from her notes—notes she’d lost to the sea. A spren shaped like a glowing arrowhead that wove through the sky around skyeels.
Golden tassels streamed from her back, long, with arrowhead shapes at the ends. Her entire front was wrapped in cloth that trailed behind, her arms, legs, and face covered. Swiftspren flowed among the cultists, and drew stares even from them.
AA: First, I have to note that her “golden tassels with arrowhead shapes at the end” seems awfully similar to the description we’ll get later of the mandras—the luckspren—that pull ships in Shadesmar. I assume this is deliberate, but it’s never addressed. Hmmm.
Beyond that, though, this is an awesome visual. She doesn’t even seem to have thought about this Illusion, much less drawn it. She just does it. Poof. It may not have the depth of backstory that Veil and Radiant have, but it seems far more… intricate. (That’s not really the word I want, but I can’t find it.) It’s much more instinctive and immediate; I can’t help wondering if this is what Lightweaving is supposed to be like.
At the same time, it’s troubling to see her flow so easily into an illusion that’s not even quite human… and the next few paragraphs are absolutely terrifying. She wonders just how much she can do with her lies, and as she listens to the cultists chanting, she begins to feel their emotions—what she calls, with inadvertent wisdom, the peace of surrender—and she goes along with it.
Swiftspren breathed in their chants and saturated herself with their ideas. She became them, and she could hear it, whispering in the back of her mind.
Surrender.
Give me your passion.
Your pain.
Your love.
Give up your guilt.
Embrace the end.
AA: Sound familiar, anyone? Not that we recognized it at the time, but… Wow. This is definitely of Odium!
AP: Yup, definitely our favorite baddie!
Shallan, I’m not your enemy.
That last one stood out, like a scar on a beautiful man’s face. Jarring.
AA: SAY WHAT??? Okay, knowing what we know now, this was most likely Sja-anat, right? (Although some have suggested that it was Pattern interjecting… but I go with Sja-anat.) What a shock that was! So she stands still in surprise, and her tassels go on waving behind her, even though there’s no wind. Girl is seriously into this Illusion—so much that the cultists begin to believe that she’s a real spren, and start kneeling around her. What follows is… I don’t even know the right words. Terrifying, thrilling, awesome, and awful, all at once.
AP: Is it though? I thought it was still Odium, since that’s his MO. “I’m not really bad! I just want you to stop repressing your feelings!” Which, yes, Shallan does need to stop tamping down her emotions… but not like that! This is also exactly the wrong tack with Shallan because of her traumatic history: She doesn’t trust easily, and it just puts her on high alert and snaps her out of the trance like state she was in.
AA: Um… Well, of course it’s Odium. ::feels silly:: Since everything else was, why would it not be? At the time of the beta (and yes, I spent too much time in the beta spreadsheet last night!), our best guess was that this was Pattern trying to get through to her. It wasn’t many more chapters, though, until we met Sja-anat as more than “something in the mirror,” and for some reason I pulled that sense of familiarity back to this moment. It makes far more sense, though, that it’s Odium.
“There are spren,” Shallan said to the gathered crowd, using Lightweaving to twist and warp her voice, “and there are spren. You followed the dark ones. They whisper for you to abandon yourselves. They lie.”
The cultists gasped.
“We do not want your devotion. When have spren ever demanded your devotion? Stop dancing in the streets and be men and women again. Strip off those idiotic costumes and return to your families!”
They didn’t move quickly enough, so she sent her tassels streaming upward, curling about one another, lengthening. A powerful light flashed from her.
“Go!” she shouted.
AA: Again, the visual impact is astonishing, and in essence I agree with her speech. I just can’t help thinking it’s… a bit ill-advised, just now.
So they all run away, and she fades to black. When she’s moved away a bit, she comes back as Veil—always as Veil these days!—and worries about how easily she’d become like the cultists. Then, poor girl, she begins sorting through personalities to figure out who she needs to be. Veil wants to be a folk hero, and that makes her insufficiently logical for the job. For that she needs Jasnah, but that’s one Illusion she’s not willing or able to try. Maybe Radiant… and she just about folds in on herself, because she doesn’t know how to be what she thinks she needs to be.
AP: So, regarding her always being Veil—that is one of the oddest decisions for me, and shows how deeply dissonant her constructs are. No one in Kholinar knows Shallan; there is no need for a disguise. But Veil is the “spy” so she is Veil when she goes out. She has the skills within her to accomplish her goals, but she doesn’t know how to express them without “becoming” someone else.
Sometimes she felt like a thing wearing a human skin. She was that thing in Urithiru, the Unmade, who sent out puppets to feign humanity.
AA: Poor child. She’s coming to pieces.
AP: Worst case of impostor syndrome ever!
Veil finally let go. She folded her hat and coat, then used an illusion to disguise them as a satchel. She layered an illusion of Shallan and her havah over the top of her trousers and shirt…
AA: You know what I find most disturbing about this? It’s not the effort required to make Veil let go, it’s that she still layers an illusion of Shallan over Veil. Sure, she needs the havah instead of the trousers and shirt, but she could have released all the illusions, and then just created the illusion of the correct clothing.
AP: Yep, this is one of the passages that made me truly realize that “Lady Shallan” is another construct.
Relationships & Romances
Veil let go reluctantly, as she kept wanting to go track down Kaladin in the Wall Guard. He wouldn’t know her, so she could approach him, pretend to get to know him. Maybe flirt a little …
Radiant was aghast at that idea. Her oaths to Adolin weren’t complete, but they were important. She respected him, and enjoyed their time training together with the sword.
And Shallan … what did Shallan want again? Did it matter? Why bother worrying about her?
AA: In retrospect, this is clear and blatant foreshadowing. (Isn’t it always, in retrospect?) We’ve got Veil showing distinct interest in Kaladin; Radiant placing more value on oaths than on emotions; and “both of them”—i.e. Shallan herself—seem to be uninterested in what Shallan thinks or feels.
Squires & Sidekicks
The urchin pulled the bag of food close, closing his dark green eyes, looking … reserved. What an odd expression.
He’s still suspicious of me, she thought. He’s wondering what I’ll someday demand of him for all this.
AA: I couldn’t swear to it, but I think this is our first hint that there’s something wrong with Veil’s plan to give food to the most needy, telling herself that she’ll gain information and get the attention of the Cult to justify her plan. Grund is less grateful and happy to see her than she expects, and she just puts it down to him worrying about future demands. It doesn’t even occur to her that she’s putting him in danger with her continued attention.
She checked in on Muri next, the former seamstress with three daughters. …
Muri always had some gossip that was amusing but generally pointless.
AA: So is Muri deliberately pointless, trying to avoid attention, or is she just naturally not a useful source of information?
AP: I think it goes to Veil not making logical use of resources. Feeding Muri and her children is a good act, but it does not help her to accomplish her goal of getting closer to the Cult of Moments. It does feed into the Veil-as-folk-hero myth.
Veil left about an hour later and made her way out of the market, dropping her last package in the lap of a random beggar.
AA: And the random beggar is the one who gives her valid information. He’s the one who tells her about the “Swiftspren” they have named her.
She’d enhanced it by sending Ishnah and Vathah out, wearing illusions to look like Veil, giving away food.
AA: Aha! Her team is finally allowed to go out on their own, eh? I wonder if they’re all over the city at the same time, further enhancing her reputation by being places she couldn’t possibly have gotten to in time. The text isn’t clear, but it does make sense if the goal was to enhance her reputation. Also, it was useful:
Back in her rooms, she met Ishnah, who was grinning. The short, darkeyed woman had been out earlier, wearing Veil’s face and clothing.
She held up a slip of paper. “Someone handed me this today, Brightness, while I was giving away food.”
Frowning, Shallan took the note.
Meet us at the borders of the revel in two nights, the day of the next Everstorm, it read. Come alone. Bring food. Join the feast.
AA: Again, there’s not much to say about this, except that it’s probably a good thing she had multiple versions of herself out there so she could get this. Looks like her efforts have borne fruit; she’s invited to the party.
AP: Finally! Yay party time! There’s no way this could go wrong!
Places & Peoples
She’d hoped that Kholinar would prove to be warmer, after so long on the Shattered Plains or Urithiru. But it was cold here too, suffering a season of winter weather.
AA: This is one of the few times since the first book that I’ve noticed the random “seasons” on Roshar. For informational purposes, Roshar doesn’t actually have seasonal changes; presumably there’s very little axial tilt to the planet, so they don’t get “summer” and “winter” like we think of them. Instead, the humans refer to weather changes by the words they brought with them from their previous planet—which apparently did have regular seasons. Just thought you’d like to know, if you didn’t already.
Weighty Words
[Elhokar] raised the glowing cup to her as she gathered some flatbread and sugar. “What is that design on your skirt? It … seems familiar to me.”
She glanced down. Pattern, who usually clung to her coat, had been replicated in the illusion on the side of her havah. “Familiar?”
AA: If ever you needed it, there’s some pretty solid evidence that Elhokar had indeed been seeing Cryptics all this time. I wonder if he’s no longer seeing them much because one has begun to form a bond.
AP: Definitely! But also, what’s up with putting spheres in the drink? Elhokar is so weird sometimes.
AA: Yeah, that was… odd. Pretty, though. Maybe it’s Elhokar’s imaginative side coming through; poor guy doesn’t get much opportunity to be creative. I didn’t quote it, but when Shallan walks in here, he’s writing glyphs and numbers to plan for a palace assault. He seems quite proficient with glyphs—maybe more so than many men would be? (Yes, that’s speculation, but he also showed he could draw a good map.)
“There are few people remaining to whom I can still be a hero, Radiant. This city. My son. Storms. He was a baby when I last saw him. He’d be three now. Locked in the palace…”
AA: This makes me so sad for him. For so long, he wanted to be a hero, to honor his father’s memory by being a worthy successor. Now he’s given up most of that. He still wants to learn to be a good king and a leader, but his dreams of being a hero have distilled down to the one I can admire most: He wants to be a hero to his son, to rescue that little boy.
Cosmere Connections
It’s him, she noticed absently. Wit’s leading the songs.
AA: You knew that right away, didn’t you? As soon as there was light, and music, and laughter… you knew Hoid would be there. He may not be feeding people, but his refreshment is every bit as real as any of the food Veil gives out.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Pattern hummed as she stretched, exhaustionspren—all of the corrupted variety—spinning about her in the air, little red whirlwinds.
AA: Fascinating little beasties. Exhaustionspren normally look like brown jets of dust shooting up in the air around you. Now they’re little red whirlwinds.
AP: Every time we see the corrupt spren it makes me wonder what they look like in Shadesmar, and what effects the corruption has there. For this one in particular, a jet of dust sounds pretty tame, but a whirlwind, that sounds ominous to this Midwest farm girl. Tornadoes are no joke.
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AA: Oh, good point! Not being from tornado country, this didn’t have quite the chilling effect on me that it would on someone more intimately acquainted with the watchfulness a whirlwind can trigger. But Brandon is from Nebraska—he’d know that feeling. Clever.
Far too many hungerspren in the air, and fearspren at nearly every corner.
AA: Nothing in particular to say about this bunch, but to note that there are a lot of them hanging around Kholinar these days. The city is in bad shape.
… corrupted awespren exploded around several of their heads. Soot-black puffs.
AA: Instead of blue smoke rings, these are puffs of soot. Okay, then. Smoke and soot are both products of fire, but have very different visceral effects. More cleverness.
Appealing/Arresting/Appraising/Absorbing Artwork
“I don’t have a proper sketch of you,” Shallan said. “I want one.” …
Elhokar was a good man. In his heart, at least. Shouldn’t that matter most? He moved to look over her shoulder, but she was no longer sketching from sight.
“We’ll save them,” Shallan whispered. “You’ll save them. It will be all right.”
… It depicted Elhokar kneeling on the ground, beaten down, clothing ragged. But he looked upward, outward, chin raised. He wasn’t beaten. No, this man was noble, regal.
“Is that what I look like?” he whispered.
“Yes.” It’s what you could be, at least.
… Storms. He almost seemed to be in tears!
AA: And I am in tears. This is such a beautiful, heartbreaking scene. The moment I read “Elhokar was a good man. In his heart, at least,” I knew he was going to die. The line about “it’s what you could be” was so reminiscent of Bluth back in Words of Radiance, it was pretty much a set expectation: He would take on a near-hopeless task, and die to complete it. In the beta sheet, I wrote, “Please, let it work. … If he has to die, let him die doing something worthwhile. Let him save his son, and be a hero.” (I think this is what makes me loathe Moash so much; this scene made me care about Elhokar, and made me so sure he had the potential to be a great king, and I hate Moash all over again. It was just so petty, compared to what he could have become.)
AP: I think one of the most real things about these books is that not everyone gets to reach their potential. Sometimes mistakes have permanent consequences. Elhokar spent a lot of years being a weak and ineffective leader. He could have chosen to be better a long time ago, and didn’t. I do think this is an example of Shallan unconsciously “improving” a person through her drawing and having an effect in the cognitive realm. She is changing how Elhokar views himself, and he is able to do better because he sees himself as better. I think this is a latent Lightweaver power that she needs to explore more fully. I hope she gets the opportunity to do so.
AA: I agree. I’m pretty sure what Shallan is doing here involves a lot more than drawing motivational posters. I look forward to learning more about it!
I also agree that Elhokar spent most of the last six years being a weak king, and several years before that being a weak prince. I often forget how young he is: He was only 20 when he came to the throne, younger when Roshone’s manipulated him in the silversmith debacle, and only 26 now. Where I disagree is that I think he was trying to be better the whole time, but had no idea how. It’s not natural to him; he’s extremely pretty, but he doesn’t have his father’s charisma or his uncle’s dynamic appeal. He tried to reproduce their effects without grasping the cause, and it doesn’t work that way. Now, finally, he’s trying to pursue the kind of character that can get the results he wants. He’ll be cut short, but I think, even now, he has finally begun to be the man he always wanted to become.
And there you have it. Join us in the comments! Be sure to come back next week for some exciting times, as we rejoin Dalinar in Rathalas. We’re going to take Chapters 75 and 76 at one gulp, because it’s all one episode.
Alice is finally able to relax; the musical was well performed, and now the props are returned to storage and the sets put away. ‘Twas an excellent production! Also, have y’all checked out the new Stormlight 4 update on Reddit?
Aubree is considering a new folk hero persona.
Count me as one who agrees that the “drowsiness” of Pattern was a sign that he could be on the way to “dying” if Shallan doesn’t turn things around. It was more like how he was on the ship – slow of speech/limited speech. So, this is like how Syl would get sillier/more like a windspren when she was beginning to “die” with Kaladin. Thankfully, he doesn’t seem to suffer nearly as much this book implying Shallan doesn’t forget her Truths as much as Kaladin broke his Oaths, but… I don’t think Shallan truly overcomes her problems yet, either. There is definitely progress at the end when she chooses Adolin and all that, but I don’t think she, or Pattern, are fully out of the woods yet and this is a warning of what can happen later if she does get truly lost behind her masks. This chapter, and the battle at the end, really drove home the picture of Shalash and how appropriate it really is with her discarding/breaking various masks and seeming to contemplate which one to wear – or which one does she want to be?
“Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm…” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.”
I think Shallan was violating her oaths and starting the process of killing Pattern.
“But also, what’s up with putting spheres in the drink?”
Google “LED Ice Cubes”. Why drink plain wine when you can put non-toxic light bulbs in and make your wine FUN?
I think this likely was one of the chapters I was the most infuriated by Shallan spending most of her time being Veil. At this point in time, I had come to hate Veil, hate what she represents, hate her misplace ego, hate her claims of being “the small folk’s hero” when she is just self-serving, hate the lies, hate the hypocrisy which is Veil thus making her actions so much worst and, more importantly, hate the fact Shallan thinks Veil is a better person to be than herself. Even if she were a *real* character, I think I would still hate Veil for her egocentricity and her pretending she’s out there to help the people, thriving on her new name, being proud of it when reality is she only does it because she has other goals, not bothering to see if she is doing any good, assuming she is, too busy she is grazing at her own navel.
I have also really hated how Shallan, under the cover of Veil, literally discredits her true feelings, preferring to follow Veil’s lead and Radiant’s advice. Who cares about her real feelings, about what she really wants? Veil is awesome, let’s do what Veil wants, Radiant is logical, let’s follow her logic, but none of them is Shallan. None of them are *her*, each are nothing more than a mask she puts one, an illusion, then she gets to pretend she is those personas, she gets to not only pretend, but believe whenever she is Veil, she *is* a sassy darkeyed woman with a thieving past and this woman prefers Kaladin. And whom Shallan really *loves*, she won’t be able to admit, to shove Veil/Radiant away until she loses Adolin, until he walks away, head between his tail. This being said, part of me do think Shallan following Veil/Radiant advise and allowing Adolin to walk away might have generate a stronger drama with an awesome pay-off on the day she realizes who she really loves. Still, I am really looking forward to reading more of them within RoW.
I also nodded Pattern getting drowsy and I do think it is linked to Shallan lying about who she is, to Shallan starting to act as if Veil was her default personality, to Shallan making Veil become her and destroying, slowly, bits by bits, the one person she has always been to the profit of self-centered navel grazing obnoxious Veil who’s so sasssssy and smart, who wouldn’t want to be her? Well, me but obviously Shallan has a different idea. Still, this scene gives credence to my own theory Shallan needs to get rid of Veil/Radiant as they are lies which have become so strong, they are threatening her integrity as a person and her Nahel bond.
On the side note, I love how Elhokar is finally coming around to being the man he could be as opposed to constantly trying to be the man he wants to be or the man he believes he needs to be. Being one-self is a theme within this series which resonates with Shallan, Elhokar, Renarin and also Adolin. With Elhokar, Brandon had the one character who is trying to emulate his father, his uncle without any success out of not understanding one cannot fake charisma nor respect through fear. He never thought of doing it his way, he always tried to do it “their way” and failed. Until now. But he had to die because *moment*.
Yeah, i’m agreeing with everyone else, I totally took pattern’s drowsiness as a sign of the bond weaking, and i was scared for him. syl’s “death” was heartbreaking enough. ugh, I seriosuly hate veil. Is it ok to hate one aspect of a character necause it just drowns out the stuff i LIKED about Shallan? at least here we can put a name and face to it, which kind of makes thing’s worst. Now with Elhokar, I so didn’t pick up he was gonna die, but now that I think about it in hindsight, his determination to save his son, to is kind of what inspires Skar and Drehy to follow through with their heroics at the end. they could have just left the boy, but they probably were the ones who insisted to Vahmah and the rest that they needed to get the kid out as well.
Why would Odium be talking to Shallan? I’m pretty sure that’s Sja-anat.
@3 – I think we’re supposed to hate it. I enjoy getting into characters’ heads, especially exploring ‘broken’ characters, so I find Shallan’s POVs chilling/interesting, even if they are also frustrating. I agree that her ‘putitng on an illusion of Shallan’ was one of those, ‘wait, what?’ moments – it’s written in such an offhand way, but it’s such a huge sign that something is really wrong.
On re-read, this is TOTALLY Odium. Yikes. (I don’t totally know about who is speaking directly to Shallan, but the Cult philosophy definitely is).
Sigh, Elkohar. I agree with Aubree here that one of the most gripping parts of Sanderson’s works is when the consequences are totally real like that. It’s not enough to be a good person in your ‘heart’, and but sadly Elkohar didn’t realize that in time.
Re: the sphere in wine, you skipped the next line, which I always thought was self-explanatory.
“That red-violet glow was the room’s only light.”
It seems like a Rosharan thing to do: drop a light in your drink when you’re sitting in a dark room so you can see your cup out of the corner of your eye if you set it down. That said, I like the idea of it being some little form of self-expression – keeping the ambiance of the dark room. Of course, thinking about ambiance made me remember the lighted ‘rivers’ at the feasts; perhaps he was just thinking back to those times.
I love this chapter because it really causes us to dig into the “meat” of Shallan and Elhokar. We feel the pain and uncertainty that Shallan is experiencing. The poor girl is trying but everything is so overwhelming. Much like the scene with Kaza, it is beautifully tragic. Elhokar is another trying so hard. Perhaps they are placed together to mirror their journeys of self discovery. I think it is too early to say for sure, but I feel like because of the nature of the Lightweaver’s oaths, they are amongst the hardest to progress in. This chapter really humanizes Elhokar and shows the genuine side that was missing for the last two books. Not that I think the genuineness didn’t exist previously, but that it was hidden from outside view in an effort to exude the “strong king”. Both Shallan and Elhokar have (and in Elhokar’s case had) very high mountains yet to climb before they overcome their personal truths. I wish her luck.
Regarding seeing spren in the cognitive, I am still waiting to see anger spren and pain spren. Blood boiling being just the drool of some creature sounds creepy, and Ivory’s own description of pain spren “here they harm more”, makes me really want to see artwork of their cognitive realm versions.
Me-three on Veil hatred, but I still don’t understand why Ishnah and Vathah didn’t tell Shallan what’s likely to happen to poor people she chose to help.
Also, IMHO the really insidious danger of Veil and other personas is that in Shallan’s mind they don’t share her past and therefore the Truths don’t apply to them. And we also see why the Truths are so important to the Lightweavers – they are the anchors which are supposed to prevent what is happening to Shallan. I really hate the argument that Veil is the real Shallan now, while “Shallan” is just a shell. As I have mentioned previously, I also find Shallan’s artistic and curious side to be the most engaging part of her and I absolutely don’t agree that the real traits that she put in Veil are now lost to her as Shallan or any of this stuff.
I was also quite disappointed that Ehlokar never got to meet Pattern – I have been expecting him to flip his lid over recognizing one of his supposed “assassins” whose spying almost drove him insane. I have been expecting him to die from the start of WoK, though, so it didn’t surprise me when it happened.
Spheres in the wine are a thing – IIRC Tanalaan Sr. also did it.
This chapter has Berlin’s “Masquerade” going through my head.
And, no, it’s not at all ironic that Shallan essentially told people, who are dealing with the crisis by mentally checking out/coming under the influence of Odium and disguising themselves as something they assume is safer than their real selves, to get back to reality. It’s not ironic at all. It’s creepy.
I did not make this connection until I read Alice’s quote where Shallan thinks that patter sounded drowsy and Alice’s opinions about the quote. I agree with Alice that this was a beginning of a regression that Pattern had because Shallan was going against some prior Truths. Similar to how Syl regressed when Kaladin’s actions ran counter to his Oaths in WoR. Only her actions later in Kholinar and in Shadesmear prevent any further regression by Pattern.
IMO, the fact that Shallan almost listened to the voice in her head was not the biggest problem. A bigger problem for Shallan is that if the voice was in fact Odium, then this means that Odium knows who Shallan is and a lot about her. How much does he know about the our new KRs (Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan and any others in their same boat)? Can he use this knowledge as a way to spy on them?
Aubree: Is it possible that the picture Shallan drew of Elhokar had no magic? Rather, it was nothing more than opening Elhokar’s eyes that other people can see the good in him. If they can, then Elhokar thinks that maybe there is something worthwhile in him. He uses this belief that others have in him (through his depiction in the picture) to be the man he could have been all along. If there was no magic inherent in the picture (or Shallan using Investiture somehow in connection with the drawing) and Shallan said said that is not how she thinks Elhokar looks; rather it is how she thought that Elhokar would want to view himself, I do not think it would have had the same effect. Elhokar would have thought that Shallan, along with everybody else, still does not believe in him.
That said, Aubree, I agree with your analysis. I just postulated the above rationale as an alternative.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Just thought of something. Wasn’t Elhokar kneeling when he was killed?
@11 AndrewHB
Interesting points!
Personally I think what was enticing Shallan was the Heart of the Revel (Unmade) releasing a generalized desire to give in. She feels it stronger in later chapters when she gets to the oathgate. So I do not think it needs to read her mind to amplify certain emotions in her. The line about not being your enemy I agree I think is Sja-anat.
I think Shallan is using magic to see into who the person could be and then draws a mundane picture. What kind of effect the picture has on the person is up to the person. So I agree I think there isn’t anything inherently magic about the picture itself. I think the magic is reading the person to know what kind of art piece would inspire them. The rest is on the person.
@12 Austin
Good point! Great catch!
@11 Well we know for certain that Odium has been watching several of the raidaints. According to the Diagram, the only one he may not have a clue about is Renarain. heck, in Edgedancer, it’s implied that the Aiiman are watching everyone…BUT Renarain, Arclo mentions the general, the surgeon, the noblewoman…everyone but Renarain. Though I always do get the impression the impression that sometimes Kaladin is a wild card some groups don’t really expect at times. The Diagram didn’t think to notice him until they heard Szeth talking about Kal, even the Skybreakers and the Ghostbloods didn’t really pick up on him until he was transformed.
Stuff I noticed:
Dark green eyes are darkeyes. Would light green be lighteyed? Are there borderline cases that have to be adjudicated?
The epigraph is about jumping off a building, then Pattern refers to jumping off a building. Clearly Pattern is reading along with the alpha readers (or this book is all about repeating actions, which of course it is).
Note that throughout this book until his death, Elhokar is constantly speaking Truths. Not that any of us caught the foreshadowing, as far as I know.
It is clearly Sja-Anat who is not Shallan’s enemy. She says the same repeatedly later, on camera.
@15 – Light eyes are supernatural. It’s genetic, passed on from Radiant lines. It’s not really comparable to color eyes here on Earth. Light eyes are obviously light and come in some wild colors. Color eyes on Earth tend to be of a darker shade, IMO. Since light eyes are supernatural, it’s very easy to tell. At least, that’s my understanding of it.
@15 Carl
Description wise at least in the books seem to paint darkeyes as very dark, and light eyes as extra light. There were comments on how for some characters you would have to shine a light in their eyes to see what color their dark eyes were. Meanwhile when Moash got the shardblade, his eyes changed clearly to tan. As to borderline cases I believe if a light eyes has a child with a dark eyes it could go one of three ways
1. child is light eyed
2. child is dark eyed
3. child has one light eye and one dark eye
@@.-@: I agree. I too hate Veil for the fact she destroys everything I *like* about Shallan. I like Shallan being an artist (such a rare trope!), I like her happy-go-lucky bubbly personality, her fiery temper, her sharp tongue, her perseverance, her illogical logic and Veil threatens all of this to disappear… How did Shallan create a persona which is so entitled as Veil? Veil thinks art is useless, Veil never smiles and is downright unsympathetic, Veil is calm, Veil seldom talks, Veil is not logic, she does what Veil wants when Veil wants it to fulfil Veil’s purposes. And that’s whom Shallan wants to be? That’s whom she think is *so* much better than her?
How long before she realizes who she is is great, amazing and leagues above anything she created while being sickening Veil? Sometimes, I think Veil illustrates how immature Shallan still is… Veil is cool! Veil has a hat and pants! Veil does whatever she wants whenever she wants! No responsibility! She doesn’t need to have any, she’s Veil!
@9: I agree on Veil not being the *real Shallan* and on Shallan not being an empty shell. I personally believe the mere fact Shallan forgets she can draw whenever she is Veil due to her persona of Veil needing not to have the same skills in order for her backstory to differ enough for Shallan to ignore her truths is enough to state Veil is nothing more than wishful thinking. She is a lie Shallan made real by seeking to be this lie as opposed to who she truly is in an attempt to avoid having to remember her past. She’s avoiding… And Veil is her escapism. Unfortunately for Shallan, then the lie becomes stronger than the reality, when the lie starts to affect reality, her bond suffers.
I am of the opinion had Shallan followed Veil/Radiant pressurized thoughts and chosen Kaladin, she would have shatteted her bond. All through OB, we see Pattern slowly disasppear, losing some of himself, much like Syl in WoR. Had Shallan not pushed back Veil/Radiant, towards the end, had she not chose herself, I think the book might have ended on a different note. Poor Adolin ended being the one compromise Shallan wouldn’t make to accommodate hungry Veil and bland, logical Radiant. I have seen a lot of readers criticize the fact Adolin seems to bring Shallan back though, in fact, all he does is remind Shallan of her true feelings and once she acknowledges them, she becomes strong enough to push back those lies who got so strong they threatened to swallow her.
All of it reinforce my thoughts Shallan needs to get rid of both Veil/Radiant, to do exactly what she feared in Kholinar: compromise Veil to the point where the disguise becomes useless. To discard her as the tool she always were.
I do not believe the traits Veil has are lost to Shallan or are something she needs to “reintegrate” to become whole. She never lost anything. What she needs is to stop believing she needs to be someone she is not to function in the day to day life, she needs to stop wanting to create a someone to deal with life and to start believing she can do it. On her own because she did. She just did it while being very confused. So for RoW, I am hoping to read the conclusion on this arc.
Three thoughts:
1) I agree that Shallan is damaging her bond, based on Pattern sounding drowsy
2) Shallan chastises herself for getting distracted by helping the hungry people when Jasnah would never had forgotten the big picture like that…. I expect that her case of hero worship is totally misunderstanding Jasnah. Not only does Jasnah have 15 years experience over her, Jasnah has different tendencies, and I am really looking forward to reading Jasnah’s backstory and finding out what Jasnah messed up when she was younger. Also….. later in the book during the climax, we see Jasnah overlook the ‘bigger picture’ wrt to Renarin, and it’s heavily implied that had she followed her logical conclusion, things would be MUCH worse off for Roshar.
3) I abhor the idea that Shallan is making a Connection with people when she draws them and is giving them traits they don’t possess, and I dislike the idea that her drawing is increasing traits that are latent. It’s all great when we’re talking about Making Elhokar noble or Bluth brave….. But there is no reason why a lightweaver can’t be bigoted. If they can make someone what they are not, then they can make all darkeyed people brutish. If they just draw out the traits they draw on their picture, then nothing would stop one from making Elhokar even more of a sniveling weakling than he appears in the first books. If anything is going on, it MUST happen with the consent of the person being drawn.
I had forgotten about Shallan making a “Swiftspren” disguise and using it to break up a Cult of Moments party. I’m not surprised these people are all so open to manipulation. With barely-comprehensible apocalypse very much impending, there’s a great temptation to banish emotions and/or submerge in sensory sensations. I might find it irresistible, personally.
I wasn’t very alert to the problems growing from Shallan throwing herself into Veil and other roles here. But I was disturbed by “And Shallan … what did Shallan want again? Did it matter? Why bother worrying about her?” She’s deciding that the part of her I believe to be her “real” self is an aspect of herself that should be…not deliberately starved into oblivion, perhaps, but not nurtured and encouraged. I’ve never developed personas like a Lightweaver, but I know how it feels to keep fueling an unhealthy part of my mindset, a destructive thought-voice that I believed to be in conflict with my kinder self but impossible to exorcise, even as I drew pseudo-strength from the heat of its fires. Shallan is coming to the conclusion that listening to “Shallan” is doing her no good.
This Shallan chapter is a continuance of a disturbing trend for our heroine. Similar to Kaladin in WoR, your issues don’t go away even when you succeed unless you actually address the issue. Her avoidance turns to cognitive dissonance and it’s hurting Pattern, an unacceptable outcome for all involved.
I do NOT like what Shallan is doing to herself and I am constantly amazed that she can still do awesome things despite the state her mind is in. But there are some mitigating circumstances that allow me to still buy in to her as a character and to hope she gets better. She left Jah Kaved as a young woman who hated herself. She’d killed her mother and her father both and came up with the plan that got her brother crippled and her step mom killed. She has been told all her life that she was useless for anything other than an ornament. She saw no worth in anything other than her artwork and even that was limited by her overbearing father. She didn’t know it when she left but she was begging to become someone else. Is it any wonder that the two women she met that showed indomitable confidence are the people she made permanent personas for? She admires Tyn and Jasnah, feels that they are fundamentally different from her. She doesn’t truly recognize her own greatness because she’s never been taught to truly value her gifts. It makes me angry but understanding tempers it quite a bit. But we had better see a lot more progress in SA4.
To go with Aerona’s issue, I honestly don’t like the idea of Shallan’s powers “taking” something from whatever she draws, or her power changing someone’s very soul, as it goes against something that the cosmere is heavily rooted in. The soul is not relaly malleable in the Cosmere, sure its influenced by outside sources, (Odium, Ruin, Preservation, Harmony) however…why would human souls be affected by powers of Honor and Cultivation, when they are of Odium first and foremost. I always imagined that the bonds are kind of a reward for them going to Honor, as they aren’t connected to the planet any other way, and their connection to Odium gives the spren something they never really have before, at least that’s how I picture it. I just find it too neat that Shallan would have such a power spike of able to steal and change things like that, when her powers are illusions. Personally, I think the reason for the whole “becoming the person thing” from last chapter was more of a result of her putting so much stormlight, that she was becoming that person, just like how much stormlight goes into veil and her false identity its not really taking a soul or changing it, but more that she thinks herself becoming that person so much that she DOES become that person, and not just using illusions to just be distractions. A lot of the Nahel bonds seem to be about well Identity. Kaladin can’t use healing to get rid of the salve brand. Shallan tries to hide her identity by finding a new one szeth has to pledge his entire self to a ideal. At least, that’s how I read everything, I could be wrong, there are much more better stormlight scholars out there than I am haha,
@slaybalj:
I don’t like Lightweaver mind control either, but that’s what the narrative seems to be showing. (Also she’s clearly predicting the future here, though she doesn’t realize it at least by the end of the book.) Remember how the Lightweavers were the inspiration-givers of the Radiants? Brandon’s very good at foreshadowing. Note that the other Illumination-using order is the Truthwatchers, and we have a scene in WoR of Renarin inspiring Adolin with a vision of his idealized self?
I certainly don’t view it as any sort of control or direct change that Shallan or other lightweavers/truthwatchers are doing. I do view it as a form of Connection with which they can find the “true” elements or deeper parts of someone and commit that to an illusion. Could that be used nefariously where they find the “true but worst” elements? Probably. But, maybe the message is that deep down we all have redeeming characteristics? Anyway, even if they can do both, I still view it as Shallan just presenting them an option or perspective. The times we’ve seen it used, Bluth, Gaz, Elhokar, etc have actively looked at the picture and then made a conscious choice. So, it seems like there is no compulsion, simply opportunity presented.
Finally, even if there is an element of compelling involved – I don’t think there HAS to be consent for it to be acceptable and “allowed”. How often does magic involve consent? Does someone consent to Kaladin lashing them to the sky? It simply brings in a conversation about the morality and ethics of when and how to use it. But superpowers rarely let the person it is being used on consent to it. The ethics falls on the user – hence you get superHeroes and superVillains.
i saw this article just this morning on the internet that touches on the effect of personality test results on an individuals sense of self: https://newrepublic.com/article/153587/understanding-facebooks-algorithm-change-see
such an effect would imply that a Connection is completely unnecessary. If we can be affected by something as unauthoritative as a personality quiz or a targeted ad’s decsion on who we are, then shallan doesnt need to coerce using Connection to do change anyones perspective on themselves.
I am willing to concede that she seems to be doing something, but we really dont have any clue on where her limits are in that respect. When she sketches someone without their knowing, does it change them? How much do her sketches affect someone when the trait she is bringing forward is hidden? How much does the subject need to want to change? (Iirc, vathah was not nearly so susecptible as the rest of the bandit troop. He calls her out as manipulative). If she draws a trait i feel is strong in me but that i wish to suppress, is it more or less effective than drawing a trait that i feel is limited but wish to encourage? Presumably, if she is doing something, then the effectivelness has to do with her understanding of the person. A flawed understanding would mean if there is a Connection, it would be weak.
if her ability is unbounded, then anyone without some sort of protection from her ability may as well not have any agency at all. All she has to do is draw me and i am now however she wants/expects me to be. I profoundly dislike this conclusion, since it implies my my sense of self-identity is less important than her sense of my identity.
Given that i feel she she is probably missing a ton of undercurrent in Jasnah, i wonder how much of an effect all her drawings had on her. Shallan probably poured a ton of hero worship into any of those pictures. Would that have an effect on her? Would Jasnah be protected due to investiture? Would she be protected because Jasnah wouldnt treat Shallan as authoritative? Heck, maybe all those pictures just have a negative effect on Shallan. She is not drawing those pics with an eye towards building up Jasnah, but instead seems to be thinking ‘i am not her’…
@25 Interesting points and questions. I’ll have to think about that now and look to see if Brandon left us any clues to his thoughts on this. I think you bring up a good point about her perhaps missing on Jasnah – but I know she did a picture of her that Jasnah found intriguing. Hmm… She also didn’t detect anything hidden in Taravangian…. wait! Didn’t she!? Isn’t that the first picture where she say the Cryptics in the picture?! If that isn’t foreshadowing about him being surrounded by lies, I don’t know what is!
Ok, rant over. But seriously, I will have to think on this more. My first impression is she – which may not be true of all Lightweavers – tends to highlight or draw out an idealized version or good possibility of the people she draws. Hmm…
Re: Shallan drawing Elhokar, and what it means.
Back in WoR, when fighting the chasmfiend, Shallan drew a picture if Kaladin and made it into an illusion as a distraction. This illusion was a heroic, larger than life image of Kaladin. Kaladin took one look at it and recognized it as the “other” him. He has long had this heroic persona, so he was familiar with it. In OB when they first got to Kholinar, Kaladin ruminates on the cost and benefits of having a heroic reputation, because he is irritated with Elhokar commanding him to be great. It is kind of funny in hindsight, given that Elhokar is a proto-Lightweaver, but instead of drawings he uses imperious commands… that are irritating. Heh. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that in both cases, Kaladin recognizes the heroic persona being conjured up.
Another weird aspect of Shallan’s chasmfiend-distracting illusion is its size. It may have been made bigger to catch the chasmfiend’s attention, but Kaladin seems to recognize the larger-than-life proportions as part of the heroic persona. Warbreaker SPOILER: When the Returned come back from the Spiritual Realm they are bigger. They seem to be a head above the normal non-zombie populous– so about 50% bigger by mass, which was the size of Shallan’s illusion .
This suggests to me that Shallan’s drawings can perceive into the Spiritual, and can show a glimpse of the idealized version of someone.
i like this @nightheron and it makes sense. to add on to it, we know that the lightweavers could do something that influenced others in a spiritual sense, from a passage in Words of Radiance, the actual book, not SA book 2, where the lightweavers did something that re invigorated the army so as to change the outcome of the battle the next day.
I personally think Shallan is a highlighter. The thing about a highlighter is that one cannot highlight what isn’t there. I believe we’ve already established that Shallan connects with the SR when she draws. She just gives the recipient of her drawing a peek. What they do with that peek becomes their problem. Kind of like a gold shadow showing an allomancer a possibility. I could see her using this talent for nefarious purposes as well if she so chose, highlighting and thus magnifying someone’s negative tendencies. But the recipient has to accept that truth in order for it to have an effect.
Evilmonkey’s mention of a gold allomancer made me think of Breeze from Mistborn. He holds a very interesting view of his “manipulations”. He views soothing as no different than someone who makes an effort to take care of their appearance/is beautiful/handsome, or intelligent, or charismatic. Those people are all using something unique that they have to get other people to do things they would like them to do. To convince them. Breeze views it as he never made them do anything they didn’t want to do, he just gave them a nudge. So I see what Shallan can do as a lot like how Breeze views his soothing. He gives them a nudge, but they still have to want to.
WRT Shallan’s drawings and their impact on the people she draws, I feel like a lot of people are way overestimating the scope of what Shallan can do with this. I’m pretty sure that Shallan’s Lightweaving can’t do anything more to change a person than can be done with normal artistic inspiration and social interaction, her powers just let her do it more easily and accurately.
@9, 18 I agree with you that Veil isn’t the *real* Shallan, but I don’t think the one that calls herself Shallan is the real one either. That’s Shallan’s problem, as I see it, that she doesn’t have a *real* self to use as an anchor against all those personas. Shallan believes, with what Rothfuss would call the Alar, the riding-crop belief, that her real self is the weeping, broken, wretch that we saw in Words of Radiance. Until she sets aside all her masks and finally confronts her traumas as herself, I don’t think she will ever be able to properly control her personae.
So far, we haven’t seen Odium giving personal attention to anyone from team radiant other than Dalinar. That makes me lean towards Sja-Anat for the “I am not your enemy” line.
With the creepy chants, it might be the heart of the revel at first, just issuing Odium’s commands of giving everything up, that’s most likely how he corrupts MOST people *glances at Moarsh* He uses the Unmade to corrupt, making them more willing to serve. Sure, he can talk to a few that interest him, Amaran, Dalinar, Venli, and Tavaragarian, but he probably uses the Unmade for more general population control, just look at how the Thrill kind of swoops in and takes control of all of the Sadeas soldiers.
I think I’m missing something. Why would Shallan’s drawings have anything to do with Lightweaving? They are sketches, pencil and paper images. While I can see someone argue that Shallan’s vision, due to Lightweaving, affects the way she sees a subject, I’ve never seen anything to indicate the drawings themselves are imbued with magic.
She saw something noble (maybe even Radiant) coming out in Elhokar and managed to capture that feeling on paper. Elhokar was deeply moved because no one had ever seen that in him (including himself). Same with her Lightweaver apprentices.
These chapters convince more more than ever that the Lightweavers are tuning into the Cognitive or even Spiritual realms. How else could she hear those voices? I think Shallan is might be making it all the way to Spiritual since she can show people their ideal, possible selves. A possible future, just like Cultivation saw in Dalinar to make him who he needs to be. I wonder if there’s a connection?
The inspirational art probably uses her second Surge, Transformation.
Comments here made me realize: aside from Hoid, Dalinar is probably the only living non-Vessel who has had three Shards speak directly to him. (He couldn’t really converse with Honor, what with Tanavast being dead, but he did have Honor speak to him via the visions.)
About the voice that called to Shallan, there’s a problem with it being snaj-anat. I was rereading some of the Moarsh chapters, and theres a section where a voice is telling him to “Let go, give in to the passion” all of the usual Odium phrases. Thing is, the narration calls him by name, it says Moarsh. so….yeah it seems that Odium DOES call to everyone to give in to him and by their names.
Well, having slept most of the last week, my first comment on this discussion is an apology…
After some consultation, we will not be tackling Chapters 75 and 76 this coming Thursday. Lyndsey is exhausted from her extremely challenging duties at Anime Boston last weekend, and Aubree is up to her ears in preparation for JordanCon next weekend. While I could, of course, take it solo, I firmly believe that the discussion will be much better if they can participate; besides, they both really want to talk about that particular episode, and I just can’t deprive them of it. :)
As a replacement, then, we’re going to jump the gun on the epigraphs discussion for Part Three, which is something I can do on short notice… because I’ve been working on it for a while already. See you there!
Okay, so I’m months late, but catching up on the re-read. I wanted to add that I think what Shallan did with Elhokar and Bluth, etc., is something similar to Soulstamping from Emperor’s Soul. It does give her a lot of power over people, but if the limits are similar to what Shai can do, then she can only change people in ways that are “plausible”. It doesn’t remove the possibility of using the ability for harm, which I would find boring if it did, but in very Brandon ways it gives it specific limits.
I’m pretty sure that Brandon has confirmed that Lightweavers have the ability to make people their “best selves” when they’re around them, which is why Kaladin always felt better around Tien and felt lighter around Shallan, too.
The implication (to me) being that Sja-Anat is the opposite of a Lightweaver.