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14 Things We Loved (and 8 Things We Hated) in Avengers: Endgame

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14 Things We Loved (and 8 Things We Hated) in Avengers: Endgame

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14 Things We Loved (and 8 Things We Hated) in Avengers: Endgame

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Published on April 26, 2019

Screenshot: Marvel Studios
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Avengers: Endgame what we loved hated
Screenshot: Marvel Studios

Avengers: Endgame is finally here! We’ve all been following the MCU since Iron Man first came out of the superhero closet in 2008, and we have feelings.

A LOT OF FEELINGS. A lot of VERY SPOILERY feelings. This is your space to shout about the highs and lows of the movie, the moments that made you cheer and the beats that left you cold.

Seriously, did we mention spoilers? Don’t read this if you haven’t seen the movie yet.

 

Things We Adored

Tony and Nebula Onna Spaceship

The friendship between Nebula and Tony is always perfect. Their little goofy game also proves that Tony’s dad energy is increasing, as he has an implicit understanding that Nebula needs to win more often in her life. Her care for him and his injuries shows us that Nebula is full of compassion and love, and should be better appreciated, thanks.

Rat-eus Ex Machina

Without Scott Lang we can’t do time travel. Which means that the entire MCU hinges on this sweet rat tripping over the Pym tech at the right time. Imagine when Doctor Strange saw that in his 14 million visions of the future.

Rocket Putting It Into Perspective

Rocket reminding Tony that he’s only the biggest genius on Earth… ON EARTH. Heh. (He hadn’t yet met Princess Shuri of Wakanda, so he can be forgiven the error there.)

We Would (Also) Die For Morgan Stark-Potts

(Do not come at us with “that’s not her real last name,” because we are not about that.) Tony Stark has been practicing fatherhood since Iron Man 3—Harley was at Tony’s funeral, all grown up, and we will never be over this ever—and he finally gets to try it out full time with a perfect little girl named Morgan, whom he adores. She loves him 3000 in return. Our hearts could not be more full.

Everything That Occurs in the Avengers Time Hop

Hulk not wanting to smash. Loki making fun of Steve AGAIN. Thor putting that goofy muzzle on Loki just to stop him from being an annoying little brother all the way back to Asgard. Bruce getting astral-projected out of his body by the Ancient One. Tony making it clear that he constantly checks out Steve’s ass. Steve fighting himself, and realizing how tiring he can be. Steve appreciating his own ass. Tony letting Scott give him a heart attack. Ant-Man commenting on Tony’s choice of cologne (Axe Body Spray???), and, hell, the fact that Tony Stark has an emergency stash of cologne for those busy days when he’s sweaty from superhero-ing but might still have to meet with Secretary Pierce. Tony and Steve trusting each other. We could have spent half the movie here and been happy.

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Magic for Liars
Magic for Liars

Magic for Liars

“Hail Hydra.”

This was a great way of eye-rolling at the Marvel comic where Cap actually was a member of Hydra, while also giving fans an incredible callback to Winter Soldier.

Howard Potts

Tony taking his wife’s last name in order to hide his identity from his past dad in the past is so pure.

“On Your Left!”

SAM, YOU CAN’T JUST DO THIS TO OUR HEARTS. EVERYONE IS HERE. THEY ARE ASSEMBLING. MAGIC IS HAPPENING BEFORE OUR VERY EYES.

Our Spider-BB

Everything Peter Parker does forever. Especially explaining to Tony how Dr. Strange came to get everyone, and finally getting that long-awaited hug, and then him being the one to lean over Tony and tell him it’s gonna be OK.

Pepper is Rescue

TONY STARK MADE PEPPER POTTS A RESCUE SUIT. PEPPER GETS TO FIGHT SIDE BY SIDE WITH TONY AND ALL THE MCU LADIES AS RESCUE. PEPPER IS RESCUE. PEPPER POTTS FOREVER.

Cap Calls Mjolnir

Steve is capable of wielding Mjolnir in the comics, and fans have been clamoring for this to happen since Avengers proper. We got a tease of it in Age of Ultron, which just makes Thor’s glee over Steve’s ability to wield it that much sweeter. Also, Cap standing up against Thanos and THANOS’ ENTIRE ARMY when he thinks he’s alone on the battlefield (that gorgeous shot, oof) ranks high on our list of happiness. (A note from Leah: After an evening of thought, this is my favorite moment in the entire MCU.)

Dr. Strange’s One Chance

Dr. Strange and Tony Stark exchanging their meaningful #FacialHairBros look, and Strange letting Stark know that they’re in the right timeline now. A dramatic finger-raise has never been so potent.

“I am Iron Man.”

He ends the way he started. And we’re going to sit in the corner with tissues for the next few weeks. (Also, Tony Stark defeating Thanos because Big Purple was too self-congratulatory to think about the fact that his shiny new gauntlet is Stark tech, and therefore compatible with Tony’s entire body, is such perfect hubris.)

Sam is the New Cap

Our hearts grew three sizes when Steve handed over that shield. Sam is going to be such an incredible Captain America.

 

Things We Did Not Like At All

How Thor is Treated This Entire Film

Fat-shaming isn’t funny. Making Thor the butt of every joke because his PTSD is so terrible that he can’t do anything but drink and play video games isn’t funny. After the great work done with Thor in Ragnarok and Infinity War, this was the most disappointing possible way to treat the character.

They Try to Handwave Time Travel and Somehow Break… Everything

It’s all well and good to say that “going back to the past doesn’t change the future,” but you still need a consistent concept behind your time travel plot no matter how you’re choosing to handle it. Which this movie does not have. And now all timelines have been called into question and nothing makes sense, and Phase 4 of the MCU is probably going to be a lot of explaining around that, which doesn’t sound enjoyable at all.

Black Widow’s Sacrifice

Natasha Romanoff deserves better than this. Good night.

Hawkeye’s Ronin Side Story is Just… There

Saying that Clint is completely broken over the death of his entire family is a fine storyline. Saying that he commits questionable acts in the middle of that period is also fine. Having him hunt down the world’s gangs in a decision to become a moral judging force for the world in the wake of the Snapture is just… not needed in this film. It’s silly and breaks the momentum.

Professor Hulk

The office would never have predicted that they would be so split over hipster-glasses-and-sweater-wearing, selfie-taking and dabbing Bruce Banner. Leah is unnerved by the uncanny valley mashup of Bruce and Hulk, Emily is all for Bruce finding the balance that works for him, and Natalie just felt uncomfortable and unable to fully take this character seriously for the entire movie. What we can agree on, however, is that compared to every other iteration of the Hulk, Ruffalo’s stubbled face grafted on to the Other Guy is an absolute triumph of CGI.

Certain Moments in the Final Battle

Watching Valkyrie on her pegasus raking a Chitauri beastie to pieces while Peter swings by carrying the Iron Man Infinity Gauntlet while even more cameos spill out of Doctor Strange’s time portals was peak crossover: Every single person got a moment. But that adds up to a lot of individual moments that don’t quite jibe as a whole, sacrificing core character development in order to play Where’s Waldo, MCU edition. The best way we can sum it up is “thanks, I hate it.”

They Still Have a Soundtrack Problem

Endgame reused many of the same motif cues from Infinity War, not in a meaningful way but in a “we ran out of music” way. It makes the soundtrack seem like an afterthought to the worst possible extent.

The Endings Smack of “People Want to Stop Making These Films”

These character codas were major for the original Avengers, but they were also incredibly neat and tidy in a way that sometimes came off as cheesy. It didn’t work for everyone in our office, and made pieces of the film into a downer.

 

What parts of Avengers: Endgame got your theater applauding, and what parts did you wish you could jump into the Quantum Realm and retcon? Share yours in the comments!

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onfairystories
6 years ago

Oh man, it’s so validating to see so many of my likes (and dislikes) represented here! Especially the Thor one, oh my god. That they went that direction at all was so disappointing; that they WOULD NOT LET IT GO for the entire movie (to the extent of MAKING his MOM do it) was pretty horrifying. It honestly feels like a jarring blob of red paint on top of an overall really impressive and beautiful mural. SO unnecessary!

Also BIG AGREE that I could have spent half the movie in the time heist! Such cool stuff going on there, in terms of callbacks and lamp-shading and general shenanigans. A really fun way to say goodbye to what they’ve done so far.

(I’ll be tattooing “Everything Peter Parker does forever” on my face, OK, thanks, bye) 

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Adrian Lucas
6 years ago

On the whole it was OK, but I felt Infinity War did a lot of things better. Thor and Hulk just didn’t work for me and I hated the choices they made for the characters. The rescue of Tony and Nebula was a bit too quick. One minute they are in space, the next Captain Marvel is carrying the ship back to the surface of earth. It felt like a lot of the rescue ended up on the cutting room floor. speaking of Captain Marvel, Carol could have been edited out of the film completely and nobody would have noticed. Nothing she did had any effect on the actual story and if they had left her out we wouldn’t have noticed. I’ll be interested to see if the rumoured “Captain Marvel” cut of the film was actually a thing. After all the hype and setup in her solo movie it did seem like they decided to leave her out of most of End Game. All the rumoured arguing and bad feeling on set between Brie and the rest of the cast doesn’t make sense if her filming time was as short and unimportant as the onscreen time appears. It would suggest that after the way the character has polarised fans and generated such bad feeling about End Game they might let the character vanish and just not refer to her again.

 

As for the whole time travel thing, it’s a hot mess. After making a huge deal of not changing your own timeline and not interfering or you’ll create different alternate branches while the original timeline continues unaffected, they create multiple paradoxes that any halfway decent sci fi fan will groan into their hands about. The ending is such a deus ex snapina that I groaned at how obvious and neat it was. I don’t mind the endings for the main cast though, it was nice to have some closure.

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6 years ago

I love that Tony tells Morgan the same bedtime story that I tell my girls! Also, she reacts the exact same way! That was probably my favorite moment of the movie, or… when Cap took up Mjolnir. 

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Alex
6 years ago

I agree with commenter 1 about Thor. I have ALWAYS wanted fat Thor, but not to fat-shame or mock PTSD: rather, because I want him to be having too much fun rocking his space-god chunkiness to care about sculpting his abs. I’m sad that they made his fatness sad.

Steve appreciating his own ass, and Hail Hydra were my highlights.

The only moment my eyes may have become a little blurry was when Wakanda showed up on the battlefield and called out…

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6 years ago

Even though it made my head spin thinking of the implications for the timeline(s), I loved the fact that Cap and Peggy got a “happily ever after.”

And, yeah, they were a bit cruel in their portrayal of Thor and his grief. It would have worked better if they toned it down a bit.

Bottom line, I dislike big, bombastic, crossover, fate-of-the-universe-hangs-in-the-balance movies because they are overstuffed and overly busy, but they did a good job putting this one together, and the film brought this phase of the MCU to a very satisfying conclusion.

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Alex
6 years ago

Also I walked out very upset that married Steve and Peggy presumably left Bucky with Hydra for 70 years instead of rescuing him to come and live with them…

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6 years ago

It’s the end of an era! Was the movie a bit of a hot mess? Yes. Did I still enjoy (most of) it? Yes!

Time travel is always going to be a bit iffy (though some time travel plots are better thought through than others), but I enjoyed the callbacks to previous installations of this story. Yes, it gave it a bit of a clip show effect, but it was still fun and impressive that it held together as well as it did, I thought. Basically this felt like a love letter to the fans who have been here for 11 years…and I don’t hate that. 

There were some individually great moments though– Cap wielding Mjolnir was maybe my favorite thing (Thor, speaking for the audience: “I knew it!!”).

My least favorite things were: 

-Treatment of Thor as mentioned here. 

-Natasha’s death. Why you gotta kill the women for the soul stone? It felt like they couldn’t figure out a good satisfying ending for her, so they just had her sacrifice herself. C’mon, guys, you can do better than that. 

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John
6 years ago

@6 I pictured Peggy throwing dinner parties and inviting work friends while Steve stews in the corner giving the cold stare to the guests that he knows are Hydra.

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John
6 years ago

The one scene I think would have made a great post credit clip would be Steve going to return the Soul gem and having an awkward run in with the Red Skull.

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Ces
6 years ago

I love the girl power scene and it made me tear-up partly because of the feeling of sisterhood, and partly because I wished Natasha was there. I also teared-up with the soul stone scene:( 

 

I’m also really disappointed about Thor. I mean it was ok at the beginning, but for such a movie as big as this, to keep him sad like that was a bit off-putting.

Fun times in the time travel scenes. Loki looking at Antman! Hehe

I guess the other characters who didn’t get to have more time were the ones who would continue on to more installments and also TV shows. Would’ve enjoyed more battle scenes before that one chance.

I loved Hawkeye and Blackwidow. 💔

It was a great ending, and there were lots of great moments. Just can’t let go of the Thor thing 😆

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6 years ago

Favorite moment: Cap stands alone, ready to die alone in defiance of Thanos and ….. “on your left”. Perfect timing, perfect line, perfect scene. So glad that it was Sam.  

Least favorite moment: Cap’s ending. It felt like the cheapest type of fan service. A lazy “happily ever after”. And despite the handwaved time-travelling mechanics, it violates the very nature set up in the beginning of the movie. What we do in the past doesn’t alter the present so how is Steve even able to be there? That’s not how it works and you even said that that’s not how it works!

In the category of heavy-handed-eye-rolling-groan-but-still-mostly-awesome: “She’s not alone” Girl Power fight sequence. Again, mostly fan service, but ultimately appropriate and cheer-worthy. Women are awesome and there should be more depictions of awesome women, but with less smacking upside the head. 

Other thoughts: How did Thanos come through the Quantum device without Pym particles? How did Wasp know where to be, or who thought to contact her? What happened to “past” Gamora and why was that addressed off-screen? Where did Valkyie’s Pegasus come from? Captain Marvel was wasted on this movie. Sam as Cap is excellent and I will gladly see a New Cap / Winter Soldier movie. Thor is a new Guardian and I will not accept alternatives. Thankful that they acknowledged that they could go back and get more Pym particles – that would have bugged me to no end.

Our tickets are already purchased for a Sunday re-watching. I may gripe, but I also understand that this couldn’t be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE and bottom line I have loved every minute of the last 11 years. 

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Caddan
6 years ago

Cap wielding Mjolnir is awesome, and I wonder if it was a response to the fans.  Pretty much from the moment AoU hit theaters, it was theorized that Cap actually could lift Mjolnir, and realized it in that moment, but stepped away specifically so he wouldn’t steal Thor’s thunder (pun very much intended).  Which just shows how awesome Cap really is.

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Pruett
6 years ago

@11: It seems like I”m one of the only people who really, truly loved Cap’s ending. We’ve known he was going to go back for that dance since Age of Ultron, but it never seemed like fan service to me. Instead, I felt like he had earned that ending. Steve’s been going and going and going since the 1940s in these movies, never once catching a real break, and his face down of Thanos alone at the end of Endgame really merited the retirement for me. Maybe I’m a sucker for old school, unambiguous Hollywood endings, but I positively adored he and Peggy’s kiss finishing out the movie. That’s all Steve’s ever wanted, and I think he deserved that they gave it to him.

It totally threw the rules of time travel to the wind, though. I am curious how he managed to put all the stones back where they came from. And why it didn’t change the timeline whatsoever for him to have lived with Peggy; I guess I understood it as an alternate timeline where after she died he came back for his last farewells, sort of like as a Ghost of Christmas Alternate Reality, but I wish they’d had him arrive via Quantum time machine.

Black Widow deserved way better, especially with her solo film on the rise. Clint really merited that sacrifice way more than she did, and I felt like they never resolved her and Banner’s relationship which was still alluded to in Infinity War.

I love that they went for Falcon Cap, but I’m disappointed that Bucky weirdly got no Cap closure.

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6 years ago

@12 In the comics, couldn’t Natasha use it, too?  Steve was the “well, duh” one, but Natasha was the real shock.

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6 years ago

@13 I agree wholeheartedly that Steve has already clocked enough hours to earn a retirement. But I think that we’ve had enough closure on Steggy by now, and on both sides, that we could have been just as satisfied with an ending that didn’t give us exactly what we wanted. But you’re totally right again that he should have returned via quantum device, or just sent the shield as a “not coming back” symbol. Then, fade to he and Peggy dancing and let us believe that he found happiness in an alternate time line… or something.

You’re also spot-on about Clint/Nat. Clint is definitely carrying around the baggage of a bunch of actions that he can’t come back from and deserves to make the ultimate sacrifice. Even though Widow feels like she has to take the burden for everything all on her own, it would have been more satisfying to have her accept and deal with her feelings as a result of her best friend’s sacrifice, and then go on to find happiness on her own. AND give us the Black Widow franchise that we ALL WANT SO BADLY. Heroic white dude with bow and arrow saves the day in his own TV show? meh, ok, kind of been done. Kick-ass super awesome woman saves the world using subtlety, intelligence, and cool tech? Set the DVR, son!!

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6 years ago

If I may, I would like to defend Thor’s portrayal in this film. While he is presented humorously, the film does not in any way shy away from showing us the darkest parts of his psyche. I find that this duality of perception hits quite close to home for me. It is easy to look at a person defined as a combat veteran or a domestic abuse survivor and empathize with their depression and PTSD, but much harder for some to see the overweight, alcoholic adults arguing with children over Fortnight as real people.

It is easy for some to laugh at that guy, but by doubling down and showing us who he is and why he is the way he is, it provides a contrast in how we might view this character. It challenges us to reexamine how we view real people. We walk past and even interact with people who are completely miserable inside without ever realizing it. We look down on people who are completely miserable on the inside without realizing it. 

If Thor in this movie makes you uncomfortable, then I think it works as intended. Doubly so for anyone who laughs first and then feels uncomfortable later. I would be interested to see exactly at what point different people became uncomfortable. How many were bothered at the moment the character first appeared in the movie and how many after reflection during the Asgard scenes. 

ErisianSaint
6 years ago

@13: I /loved/ that Steve got Peggy and she had a loving, supportive husband.  (I may be wrong, but I could swear that in earlier films, with all the pics of Peggy’s family, we never see her husband!)  But I still cried my eyes out because I’m not ready to let go of these people!

The Thor thing bothered me.  Natasha’s ending did not: she and Hawkeye both have red in their ledger and either one would have had a satisfactory ending except that I keep thinking about his kids.  (Besides, thanks to the wonder of YEARS of stories that we haven’t had, Natasha could still have a tv show.)

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Caddan
6 years ago

@15, we may yet see a Black Widow movie, possibly even franchise.  We don’t know her history before Ironman 2, after all.  And that would mean they can put in some bittersweet easter eggs during those films.

However, Clint can’t go until after he’s fully handed things off to Kate Bishop.  So he had to stick around for now.

ErisianSaint
6 years ago

The look of longing on Steve’s face when he looked at Peggy during the time heist…OW.

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6 years ago

So this movie has some nice moments, and it has some emotional (and potentially manipulative) scenes.  But narratively it is a complete disaster.

Time travel is a dangerous narrative choice.  Obviously, trying to look at time travel from a scientific perspective is a fools game.  But when it is used in a story, we should look at it in a philosophical and moral sense.  And the movie has serious problems here.  

The reason they have to return the stones to their original positions is protect the original timelines.  However, the original timeline is NOT preserved.  They kill Thanos from before he uses the stones. They have split off an new timeline, and they only return the stones to restore the timeline they are not a part of.

Think about the moral implication of this.  They saved no one.  All they did was position themselves in an alternate timeline in which people happen to be saved, but the original timeline is still doomed.  This is the philosophical problem of relativistic timelines.  And it is as antithetical to the superhero genre as you get.  The actions of superheroes are meaningless and empty because their personal timeline has no bearing on the timelines of others.

This is ignoring all of the other time-travel problems in the movie.  People are returned after a five-year delay, but Peter Parker just returns to school as normal to see all of his friends?  How lazy is this storytelling?

 

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John
6 years ago

Nat rescuing Clint from a destructive path when he doesn’t think he deserves it perfectly bookends their relationship.  Recall that it was Clint who gave her the chance to reform in the first place at a time when she was likely doing the same kind of things we see him doing as Ronin.

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Gareth Wilson
6 years ago

“Vormir” means “refrigerator”, right?

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6 years ago

About Thor: I love that they went there with him as it is a logical development. He measures his lifespan in millennia, so all of the hits he took over the past few years are, for him, in the past few weeks. That really drove home the PTSD angle. What I hate is how the other Avengers seemed to treat him, which in turn encouraged the audience to laugh. For this reason, I’m glad that it looks like he’ll be in GotG 3. James Gunn has generally done a good job of balancing humour with pathos.

About Nat: Yeah, I’m really torn. There’s so much else that they could have done with her, and I have no idea what this means for the Black Widow movie. On the other hand: this death, for this reason, is about as perfect as we could hope. She loves Clint and the Bartons, she wants to get rid of the red in her ledger, and she always “does the math” in situations like these because someone has to. For her, it would be open and shut. However, the lack of a funeral is, frankly, enraging. It didn’t necessarily need to be the big thing Tony got. All we would have needed were the appropriate people pouring one out at the Barton farm, maybe a lingering shot of little Nathaniel Pietro, named for two of the three dead Avengers. Also, I really missed her during THAT shot, where she should have been front and centre.

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matt
6 years ago

@20

RE: actually saving people

You are correct this has to be a branch off reality…but remember also that it wasn’t just the infinity stones that were removed from that timeline. Thanos himself left that timeline to come and die in this new one. Without Thanos around in the original, he can’t snap. Not saying no one else could…but, what guarantees do any of us have in life?

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Travitt
6 years ago

Re: Gamora and Black Widow…

Wasn’t GOTG  Gamora ‘alive,’ in some sense in the Soul Stone after Infinity War? They certainly implied this to be the case IIRC.

So isn’t Natasha also potentially ‘alive?’

My hope and theory was/is that their souls would be released and re-embodied, and ready to lead or co-lead their franchises when Rogers returned all the Stones. 

 

Mayhem
6 years ago

Biggest thing that bugs me is the Soul Stone works on the logic of “a Soul for a Soul”. 

So why can’t Cap get Nat back when he gives the stone back? 

 

On the Thor being fat … at least they are consistent – he *stays* out of condition throughout, even when in armour.  There is no magical Asgardian weight loss program when he armours up.  Although did New Asgard look at all like Aquaman’s village to anyone else?  Between that and Thor’s hairstyle I was certain they were poking fun at DC. 

 

I also *loved* how Gamora knees Quill in the nuts … this isn’t his Gamora and he’s taking liberties. 

 

Also did you notice how Loki escapes with the Tesseract in this timeline, meaning his death last film isn’t the last we might see of him. 

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6 years ago

@26

So why can’t Cap get Nat back when he gives the stone back? 

Because the catsuited femme fatale spy is a problematic stereotype and the narrative knows it?

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6 years ago

@20: You got that the wrong way round. The present cannot be changed in any way. If they kill Thanos as a baby, it’s have no impact on their reality, it’d just create an alternate timeline.

However, they can bring items from other timelines into their own. The second 2014 Thanos realised what was going on, it created a splinter timeline that will not lead to their own. They can still steal the Power Stone and take it to their time and Thanos can follow, but that’s no longer the Thanos who did the Snap, so they can kill him in the face with no repercussions in their reality.

This does mean that there’s either a new timeline out there where Thanos abruptly vanished in 2014 (no great loss) or, as per the Ancient One, if you remove the Stones from a timeline and then put them back again, that can fix problems. Cap returns the Stones at the end of the film and then winds up living with Peggy for 70 years in one restored timeline, so that seems to work out fine.

tl;dr – they have magic reality-altering stones. It all got fixed.

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littlebit_liz
6 years ago

@@@@@ 20: re: your comment about Peter Parker. We only see him greet one friend in the film, Ned. Yes, we know from the trailer for Far From Home that MJ and some of the other students are there as well, meaning all of them disappeared with Thanos’ snap, just like Peter did. Presumably, many of the students at the school are not from his original class. Is it kinda convenient that Ned, MJ, and some of the others were among the vanished? Sure, but it’s also incredibly convenient that the original 6 Avengers were among those that weren’t vanished. You might call it lazy, but it’s also completely plausible. 

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6 years ago

@19 I was silently screaming “look up look up look up!”

The whole avengers assemble sequence was gratuitously manipulative and I loved it while I was ugly sobbing. 

They definitely should have committed to the hard reset of the snapture. There’s no way the sequels are going to deal with the problems of bringing back billions of people to a world that adapted to their absence. 

Very wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey temporal mechanics without committing to any kind of coherent explanation of why it works or why it will be okay.

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JD
6 years ago

I agree. I seem to be the only one who did NOT like this at all.

Thor’s arc was ridiculous. He literally fought Thanos as a fat guy. No heroism at all.

The Hulk was supposed to get a story arc, like, I dont know, hulking out when Romanov died and beating the crap out of Thanos. I guess the Hulk is dead? And Banner just took over his body? That makes sense. NOT. And he literally NEVER FOUGHT ANYONE. NOT ONCE.

One major issue with the whole movie was THERE WAS NO ACTION. 2.5 hours of nothing. Then a 20 minute “war.” That war should have been an hour long. What a waste.

Captain Marvel did nothing. (And her haircut is stupid)

Thano’s death was very dissatisfying because they didn’t even kill the Thanos that beat them. They killed someone they didn’t even know and he didnt know them. Took all of the emotion out of the battle. 

Cap’s ending was rushed. Tony’s dad moment was unnecessary. The beginning of the movie (pre-5 years later) should have included Carol’s arrival and been 30 minutes instead of 5. The hero comeback was also rushed. Not a single good character moment outside of Cap. 

The time travel segment needed to be half the time. The beginning and the war needed to be double the time. 

The whole movie felt like Guardians 2 and Thor Ragnarok, not like any of the Avengers titles. It was a silly comedy with a bit of action at the end. A horrific way to end the epic stories we’ve enjoyed before. The Russo’s owe us a do-over. A complete remake of this movie. The whole presentation was unacceptable.

 

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littlebit_liz
6 years ago

Glad I’m not the only one who bawled during the “Avengers Assemble” sequence ;)

@@@@@ 11 Past Nebula gave a vial of Pym particles to Thanos; presumably she got them from the other Nebula. As for the Wasp – and anyone else – I assume Strange assembled everyone as soon as he came back; he’d seen the future, so he would’ve known who had to be there. Probably he contacted Wong right away and got him and the other sorcerers assembling everyone via various gateways. Like you, though my big question was what happened to Gamora. I can’t remember – was she at Stark’s funeral with the other Guardians? I can see her maybe wanting to go off on her own, since she doesn’t really think of Quill and the Guardians as her family, but it was her newfound sisterhood with Nebula that prompted her to act at the end there, so it’s weird to me that she would leave her behind. Whatever the case, it was definitely weird that it wasn’t addressed at all.

Am I the only who felt like they turned fat shaming on its head with Thor? Because yeah, they milked the hell out of it, but then he remained fat through the whole movie. He had his moment with his mother where he got his mojo back, and then he kicked ass against Thanos, while still fat, and was back to his cheery self with the Guardians at the end, while still fat. With no comment about needing to shed the pounds or anything. Sure, you could argue he didn’t have time to lose the weight by that point, but he’s Asgardian. I felt like the writers could’ve easily “magicked” him back to his slimmer self before the end, but they didn’t.

I understand that there’s some time-travel head scratchiness to Cap’s ending, but I don’t care, I loved it. When I did my rewatch of all the films this last time, both the end of the First Avenger and Peggy’s death in Civil War hit me really hard, for some reason harder than ever before. I was really glad they got their happy ending. 

I know everyone’s wondering about Natasha’s solo movie, but I could’ve sworn that was always rumored to be a prequel anyway?

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Ilaeria
6 years ago

“Harley was at Tony’s funeral, all grown up” – THAT’S who that was! I was trying to place him and struggling – at first I thought he was Quicksilver and then realised that didn’t at all make sense.

Thor in a fat suit ruined the movie for me. It made me so angry. I loved everything else about this movie, but Thor in a fat suit, played for laughs, mocked for his PTSD and depression, even his *mum* telling him to eat a salad? I felt completely betrayed. This universe that I’ve loved for so long, betraying me like that – I can’t properly articulate how upset it made me. The more I think about it the more furious it makes me.

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6 years ago

I’ve got to say, reading some of the complaints both in the article and in the comments it seems there are ultra-nitpicky things that very largely come down to personal taste rather than inherent flaws. As for time travel, for me it seems to largely stick to it’s own rules to the degree that you should be able to follow the advice of Sir Basil Exposition and just not worry about it! :)

And honestly, there is always going to be one and only one actual answer why any of this happened and does or doesn’t work: Comic books.

Also, you want to complain about Fat Thor but did you not think everyone was still mocking Scott all the time despite the fact that he’d delivered the solution they wanted?

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Jeff Lees
6 years ago

Soooo… the person that Clint loves most in Widow? Man his wife is gonna be maaaad… lol. I HATED the way they killed off Widow. That whole part made no sense and cheapened the significance of what happened between Thanos and Gammorah.

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6 years ago

@26 – “I also *loved* how Gamora knees Quill in the nuts … this isn’t his Gamora and he’s taking liberties.”

Except Quill didn’t know that. He missed the entire time travel aspect of this film, and all he knew was that he disappeared and made it back, and that Gamora was standing in front of him again. He wasn’t taking liberties, he was acting exactly how anyone could be expected to act in that moment.

Sunspear
6 years ago

@31. JD: “He literally fought Thanos as a fat guy. No heroism at all.”

I dunno. He made me think of Volstagg. Is Volstagg not capable of heroism because he’s fat? Does body type determine who can be a hero?

Many had a problem with how Gamora was sacrificed. Not sure how I feel about Natasha self-sacrificing. They take the soul stone rules at face value. Who’s to say they can’t acquire it another way. The missing comics element here is Adam Warlock. Disney really screwed themselves by firing James Gunn. Maybe we would’ve had that character available by now. Maybe Adam will acquire the soul stone and bring back Natasha and Gamora.

Warlock also redistributes the Gems/stones after Thanos’ defeat. Something I wondered about while they were deciding to return the stones. The Ancient One herself was shown as somewhat compromised by pursuit of power. She lied about it in Strange’s movie. Again, they take her words at face value. Maybe Steve figured out he only had to return the stones to the same time periods, not necessarily the same places. How was he going to go to space anyway?

With Thanos removed from the timeline, who was going to be a bigger threat anyway?

Agree with those who found Captain Marvel underwhelming, but don’t think we can blame the actress. Larsen shot this before her solo movie and was kept in the dark about her lines and what they meant. Marvel shouldn’t have hyped her as the one who was going to kick Thanos’ ass.

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RMK
6 years ago

I love you and this list, but I’m going to go to bat for Natasha Romanov’s beautiful death.

There is no more perfect ending of Nat’s story than for her to die sacrificing herself for the lives of the innocent, and in a highly individualized way. She went from not caring much about anything or anyone, to believing she had no place in the world, to dying to save the universe. And she died in the place of Clint, her best friend–which brings their story full circle from the original Avengers movie, when she was ready to risk everything to save him.

Nat was an Avenger because she wanted to balance her ledger, to make up for some of what she’d done–and because Clint, when they met, had believed she could be more. He gave her a second chance, and now (and this is why the Ronin story is essential) she gets to give him one. We saw in Ultron that she had trouble really believing that she could be “anything more than what they made me,” just like Clint here doesn’t think he deserves a second chance. She gets to die where she stands, just like Tony did, and I firmly believe there’s no better ending for her redemption arc than that.

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RMK
6 years ago

I’ll throw in that, while I understand being upset that Thor’s weight gain and PTSD were played for laughs and belittled him, I think this article misses the story purpose of that. Thor is now clearly not the traditional hero he always wanted to be, the grand savior of the Battle of Wakanda. He can’t even pretend he’s that anymore, and him trying to is laughable. This is to highlight that Thor’s life needs a new direction, one he’s been scared to find. It was subjectively objectionable, and that’s a valid reaction–still, objectively it served a purpose, and I think that needs to be part of the conversation.

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Deano
6 years ago

Did anyone else start wanting an Ant-Man/Hulk buddy picture after watching their scenes together?

Captain Mawful was as bad as her haircut. 

Nebula got a lot of deserved screentime, she’s truly the apex of the female Marvel character growth-arcs. And, for all that, she’s still got so much more room to become someone even cooler. 

Anyone dissing Thor’s RIP(ped) physique aren’t sitting down to peel that emotional onion. Hemsworth is great at getting the cheap laugh, sure, but he clearly also gives us those murky depths beneath… He was the rock that held the movie together. And for a movie that big, you need a REALLY BIG ROCK. ;) 

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Gaz
6 years ago

@31 – Sheeeeeeesh. Did you even like any of these movies?

@34 – Completely agree. You guys are a tough crowd for real.

I don’t understand the uproar over how Thor was portrayed and completely agree with @16, @32 and @41. Yes, the initial reaction was played for laughs, and I did laugh (because Hemsworth has mastered Thor by now), but I also saw pretty much straight away how broken and traumatised he was. Banner trying to bring Thor back to the team was moving. Rocket’s “everyone’s lost someone” exchange with Thor in Asgard was moving. Those bits weren’t making Thor the butt of fat jokes at all.

@1 – The fact that “his mom did (the “fat shaming” / eat a salad comment) too….” 1) Isn’t that what all moms do? It’s almost like how moms show they care. And I’m only talking about the moms of those who don’t have eating disorders. 2) It came in the middle of a scene when Thor finally gets some closure for all the losses he’s taken over his character arc. And his mom recognises how much he’s hurting and tells him exactly what he needs to hear to start getting him back on his feet. It was beautiful. 

Furthermore I thought the character codas for the original Avengers were wonderful, especially for Cap. What was so cheesy and downer about them? Yes I understand there are problems with continuity and time-travel for Cap’s ending, but you’re looking way too hard into all of it. Just enjoy it for what it was: a sentimental send-off to a beloved character who finally got what he wanted after all these years – that dance with his girl. 

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Gaz
6 years ago

And I forgot: my favourite part of the whole Thor arc was that, after 5 years of drinking and brokenness and PTSD, he was STILL WORTHY TO WIELD MJOLNIR. That Fat Thor was still worthy is proof to me that it wasn’t belittling him or fat shaming him in any way. Everyone reacts to trauma differently, and you can react like Thor did and still retain his heroism and character. 

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6 years ago

@32 Yep, she gave the Pym particle to Thanos. So how did she get back? Still missing a Pym particle in the equation.

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littlebit_liz
6 years ago

@44 I may be remembering this wrong, but I believe Thanos (somehow) used the Pym particles to bring his entire ship – with all his forces – to the present timeline. Both Nebulas were on that ship with him, along with Gamora. Now we can wonder how he managed to bring his entire ship through, when the Avengers needed a vial each to travel, even when they were traveling as a group. I guess one explanation might be that he probably has access to technology that the Avengers don’t, and somehow applied the Pym particles to the entire ship (let it be known, I am not a science-minded person, so how much sense that makes, I have no idea :D).

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6 years ago

No after credits scenes? Not one?

shameful

Mayhem
6 years ago

The heroes did the same – the Guardian’s ship was shrunk and brought with them in order to get to Vormir and a separate habitat was supplied for Morag. 

They appear to have handwaved how the heroes had to shrink externally but all of Thanos’ forces could shrink inside the ship along with it instead of being squelched. 

Sunspear
6 years ago

@46. Mori: Didn’t need any. What else would you have them do after all the closure?

Mayhem
6 years ago

@46

No scene, just a single hammer sound from Iron Man over the Marvel logo. 

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

Just to establish some things, as I’m reading through these comments, all of this movie was shot prior to Captain Marvel being shot. Her plotline in this movie had nothing to do whatsoever to fan reaction or the performance of Captain Marvel. Given the amount of effects necessary, I’d say the basic edit was locked in place long before Captain Marvel was done shooting.

She was in this movie as much as made sense for a movie that was intended to wrap up a decade of storytelling that she wasn’t a part of. And what she did in the movie was awesome and made a ton of sense, given what was happening in the rest of the Universe.

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

@31:

Carol’s arrival was the post credits scene in Captain Marvel. Then they sent her in to space to rescue Tony and Nebula. Then she returned with them. When she arrives at Avengers headquarters with Quill’s ship, she has already met Cap and Bruce and Natasha.

And they did kill the Thanos that beat them. Thor chopped his head off at the end of the first act.

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

:

Nope. Old Gamora went back with the rest and ran the machine to bring Thanos and the ship back. We are still short one vial of Pym particles. But perhaps the Maw was able to synthesize more?

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6 years ago

Maybe Cap DID get Nat back when he returned the Soul Stone, but we just haven’t seen it yet–it would be a cheap undoing of her death, but comics have done things like that before. And I do think it would have made more sense for Old Cap to arrive via the time machine rather than show up on the bench, which they could have explained by him being in an alternate timeline. That alternate timeline would have been pretty cool, if Cap and Peggy had continued to fight baddies together. They could have prevented Hydra from infiltrating SHIELD, rescued Bucky, told Kennedy not to go to Dallas, warned NASA about flaws in the Apollo and Shuttle programs; heck, the possibilities are limitless. With that kind of help from the future, we might even live in a world with flying cars.

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Will Sim
6 years ago

Hemsworth is in on the joke; it takes CONSTANT exercise and diet to maintain his physique. So how is REALISM now a bad joke? You try a 5 year beer and Cheetos diet, see what happens.

So sarcastic characters saying sarcastic things is body shaming now? Maybe the problem is your mindset, because shame is internal. A normal person would see it as a call to action innit? Can we call a spade a spade?

Guess Hollywood should make a new genre of movies: for the easily butt hurt. 3 hours of weather channel highlights and one line of dialogue. “How’s the weather today?” I’d add a reply, but I’m afraid of cloud shaming.

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Rob
6 years ago

Worst version of the Hulk. As a Hulk fan I feel like I’ve been cheated over and over. He already didn’t get to appear in the Civil War movie, he had one scene in the previous film and he got his but kicked. Now they chose to give us a neutered version in this movie. I kept hoping the old Hulk I loved from the original Avengers would come back at the end to kick Thanos’ butt, but nope, he barely did anything at all in this one, I think the writers chose to just write off the Hulk character, and that’s a shame, because he was the popular breakout character of the original Avengers. What a waste.

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Mark Magee
6 years ago

In regards to Thor I had a completely different take. As a guy who is overweight, has had extreme anxiety his entire life and who has PTSD I felt like whoah I could be Thor. I didn’t feel like it was fat shaming at all. The humor is obviously the tension between Thor as his own ideal version, our ideal version and the irony hat he isn’t that anymore but yet still he is the God of thunder. It was fricken awesome.

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Bill
6 years ago

I’m OK with the time travel thing being messy.  They had such a short time to figure it out, they were bound to screw something up.  What would be better is if it was done intentionally for a latter plot point.   For instance, Kang the Conqueror doesn’t like that the quantum realm/time is being messed with and becomes a/the new villain.

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Ed
6 years ago

I also thought the soundtrack was horrendous…dated, lazy, and pure distracting cheese.

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drew
6 years ago

the minute that past thanos learned about the future, a new timeline was already created. anything that happened after that didnt matter. 

then when he was pulled from that past to the future, that fucked up everything even more. past thanos disappears in his timeline before collecting the stones and doing the snap. pulling him into the future just erased everything he did in infinity war. no one dies. everyone immediately comes back. 

what a bunch of crappy writing. 

 

 

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6 years ago

When it comes to timelines, I follow the words of the great Jack O’Neill “Eh, Close Enough”. But if you want more then there is also the wisdom of Chief Petty Officer Miles O’Brien “I hate temporal mechanics”.

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Doug
6 years ago

Thanos was not stupid enough to think that destroying the infinity stones guaranteed a win for him. In fact, it guarantees a a loss.

I did a quick search and the first result was that population on Earth doubles every 63 years.  Going with this number, since the exact number is not really that important to my argument, his first snapping would have just moved the current day situation 63 years down the road.

Destroying the infinity stones would have just guaranteed that everything he had tried to prevent would just happen 63 years later.

It just does not make sense at all that Thanos would not know this, after having decades to think about implement his plan.   

From the moment we were told he destroyed the stones to cement his victory, I was let down and not very much into the movie.  I watched and enjoyed the rest as much as I could, but I was not really into it anymore.

 

I don’t have any problem with suspension of disbelief, but that is totally different than wanting to see storylines that are consistent with the characters.  When there are actions that are inconsistent with the characters, all character development is lost.

 

 

lisianpeia
6 years ago

I was devastated about Nat’s death. I basically spent the rest of the movie thinking how they were going to resolve this shit – and like someone else pointed out, I was also wondering why Cap can’t get her back when he returns the soul stone.

I know some people have pointed out it was a good closure for her character because she sacrificed for her friend, who had helped her out before and etc. I understand this logic, but I just can’t agree with it.

Tony’s death is extremely sad, but he is a character who’s had several movies woth of plot and character development. There were still plenty of stories to tell about Nat. Her death doesn’t bring any closure to her character plotline. An article at syfy wire sums it up perfectly “They both sacrificed themselves, but one was in service of plot and one was in service of character.” And she served bad plot at that: in all that time they were figuring out how to take the stones, Nebula didn’t mention once something like “my father sacrificed my sister for the soul stone”?

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6 years ago

My name for the new Hulk is “Self-Actualized Hulk.”

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beyondthehavens
6 years ago

@62: IIRC, no one, including Nebula, knows that Gamora’s death on Vormir was directly enacted because it was the price required for the Soul Stone. At the end of Infinity War (when she puts the pieces together that Gamora’s dead, right before Quill attacks Thanos out of rage), the only thing that Nebula says is “He took her to Vormir. He came back with the Soul Stone… but she didn’t.” i.e., acknowledging that he must have killed her there. She doesn’t spell out the connection that Gamora might have had to die in order to get the stone, just that Gamora never came back with him, so she must not be alive. None of the team left after the snap is aware that in order to gain the Soul Stone, someone has to die on Vormir. 

It’s part of why, from a purely logistical perspective, the fact that Clint and Nat were the ones who went to Vormir made sense. (At least to me. I personally loved pretty much all aspects of the movie barring a few of them, though I definitely understand where some of the critique comes from, especially on this thread). Cap, Banner, Tony, and Scott all needed to travel back to New York because of their parts in the initial Time Heist plan (to either emulate their past selves or use their powers for the heist, like Scott). Thor and Rocket were the team that made sense to go get the Aether (it’s Thor’s timeline, so he’ll know where to find Jane, and Rocket is capable of understanding, building, and implementing the tech to extract the Aether). And War Machine and Nebula made sense to go get the Power Stone (Nebula’s one of the few team members who knows other planets besides Earth and has been to space, so she’ll know where they’re going, and Rhodey is both a capable fighter if something goes wrong and has enough tech to deal with any booby traps and technical problems that could crop up.)

That leaves Clint and Nat to go and get the Soul Stone – and  they have years of experience working together, so sending them as a pair makes sense. Honestly, all that the team seems to know about the Soul Stone is that it’s kept on a planet called Vormir, and Thanos went there with Gamora and left with the stone, having murdered her somewhere in the process. Since he didn’t need to bring his whole army with him to retrieve the stone, to their knowledge, it probably seems (at least from their perspectives) that either the stone is relatively unguarded on Vormir, or it’s guarded by people that Thanos and Gamora (or just Thanos) were able to fight their way through and survive. In that situation, sending two super-spies, who have years of dealing with unpredictable combat scenarios as a team, into the field….that checks out to me.

lisianpeia
6 years ago

@64 

I understand your reasoning and you’re probably right. Ever since IW, I understood from Nebula’s line that she knew what had happened. But looking back, that was indeed my assumption.

 

lisianpeia
6 years ago

@64 

I understand your reasoning and you’re probably right. Ever since IW, I understood from Nebula’s line that she knew what had happened. But looking back, that was indeed my assumption.

 

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6 years ago

I was so happy for Cap to live a normal life, but how he ended up in that timeline? He came back, returned all the stones and created new timeline (I guess) and then he is waiting for the guys on the bench. It was a perfect ending for him, but it just does not work. I wonder if Marvel is going to explain all the time travel shenanigans, or maybe they thought no one would care? 

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Dan
6 years ago

While the battle was cool, the high quickly wore off.  Infinity war was actually  the better movie but rushed, and it should have been given the run time of endgame to let the dialogue and jokes marinate rather than endgame dwelling on stupid fat thor blubbering misery, black widow bowing down after running the show 5+ years and then dying to further the storyline of the least important avenger and while I get the idea behind the girl power moment, they made it kinda corny, and Tony’s sacrifice moments in 2012 avengers and even in infinity war were much better done than the gloss over endgame gave it….  I expected more from a culmination of 22 movies ending after more than a decade.  Oh, and captain America finally able to wield mjolnir, but bails for the rest of his life… uber ghey.

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6 years ago

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ChocolateRob
6 years ago

@59 Anything that changed the past created a new timeline for that change to occur in, it does not affect the main timeline at all. There is now a universe where Thanos disappeared with his forces before the infinity war could begin but that does not affect the universe that we have been following all this time one whit. (apart from, y’know, being where they went to…) The Thanos of our timeline died 20 minutes into this movie, the rest of it was fixing the mess he made of it. A defeat of two parts that coincidentally saved another timeline too.

Nothing you do in your past can alter your present because you are never in your past but a new timeline.They were consistent in that you never overwrite your present with a new past.

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Gloria Magid
6 years ago

Natasha’s fate confuses me, since I heard they are developing a Black Widow movie. Anyone know how that’s going to evolve?

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6 years ago

Didn’t Steve take both Mjolnir and his shield with him on his mission to return all the stones to their timelines? In which case, what happened to Mjolnir?

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RedIII
6 years ago

My head canon is forever that when Steve went back and married Peggy he also warned what was coming and purged SHIELD of all Hydra then went and rescued Bucky. Old Steve Rogers actually used the tech to pop back into 2023 parallel to his timeline, a timeline where thanks to Steve Rogers neither the Kennedys, Malcolm X, or Dr. King and a lot of other Civil Rights leaders were assassinated, Hydra’s crappy destablization plan never materialized and thanks to Howard who wasn’t killed and Tony, their world is half way to Star Trek.

 

I loved this movie, I laughed, I cheered, I cried, I applauded.

 

And that Star Trek VI send off for the Founding Six. Bravo.

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RedIII
6 years ago

And Steve took Mjolnir to drop it off in the Thor The Dark World timeline so Thor could keep using it.

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Fanraeth
6 years ago

The amount of kvetching I’ve seen on Twitter and Reddit about the time travel is frustrating. They explicitly state how their time travel works, down to clearly rejecting the notion of it being anything like Back to the Future and then everyone calls plotholes because it didn’t follow Back to the Future logic. It’s irrelevant that 2014 Thanos died or that 2012 Loki got the Tesseract and escaped. That’s happening in some divergent universe. Steve replaces the Stones and Mjolnir because Ultron, Ronan, and Dormammu will slaughter billions in those divergent timelines without the Stones and they’re trying to not screw over all of those alternate people. As for Steve and Peggy, it’s a closed time loop. He wasn’t shunted off into an alternate timeline because the prime universe has always been the timeline where he marries Peggy. I’d be shocked if this wasn’t planned for years, considering the fact that they previously deliberately refrained from so much as showing a picture of Peggy’s husband. 

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6 years ago

Regarding the “girl power moment” it felt very forced to me. Was rewatching Infinity War today and the battle between the female follower of Thanos and Black Widow, that Wakandan general and Scarlet Witch felt much better and less forced. It felt like something that could happen in a battlefield, four people fighting and them all being women. What happened in Endgame was Thanos threatening one person (coincidentally a woman) who was holding the infinity gauntlet and then all the people defending her being women (and this numbering in the dozen at least, all the female powered characters of the MCU), instead of, you know, a more balanced number. It’s like the battle was gender-seggregated (women to the left, men to the right) and Thanos kind of entered the girls-only part of the battle, which felt, like I said, way too forced to get applause from certain sections of the audience. 

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Dean
6 years ago

@73:  It’s been suggested that the Black Widow movie will be set before the events of ‘Endgame’.  Though I’m hoping that she gets brought back to life somehow.

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6 years ago

@73, Black Widow’s movie is a prequel.  Probably her origin story.

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Juan
6 years ago

It wasn’t a fat Thor, it was a Big Lebowski Thor and it was genius.

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Ryamano
6 years ago

@@@@@ 79

 

Maybe Guardians 3 (Asgardians of the galaxy?) could solve that? Adam Warlock was teased at the end of Guardians 2, and nobody knows the Soul Stone better than Adam Warlock.

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6 years ago

I liked all the things you did, and disliked most of the things you hated, but definitely gotta disagree on Tasha.

That was her story brought full circle.  As soon as the two left for Vormir, you had to know how it was going to end.  Tasha was NEVER going to let Clint die right when they were trying to save his family, and she never fails at what she determines she will do.  She outsmarted Clint, and got to make the sacrifice that’s been in her ledger since BUdapest. 

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Kate Kulig
6 years ago

I was royally pissed about how they treated Black Widow. It infuriates me that Clint gets to go back to his family. He went around murdering people FFS.

Marvel can make up for that by having Hawkeye tell his kids the story of his best friend Nat and we can finally get our Black Widow movie.

I was so happy to see Sam and to see that he’d be the new Cap. 

I think Steve did an alternate timeline so he could be with Peggy. It was about time that he did something for himself. I nearly melted at that ending smooch.

I totally get PTSD making you also drunk and depressed, but I wish people had showed him some more compassion. His mom, after that beautiful scene, cheapened it by saying, “Eat a salad.”

Steve and Mjolnir had me cheering.

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6 years ago

@78 What happened in Endgame was Thanos threatening one person (coincidentally a woman) 

Um, that was Spiderman. 

(and this numbering in the dozen at least, all the female powered characters of the MCU)

Which was why this was earned AF.  Marvel, despite taking too long to get us a female led movie, has seeded their universe with these characters, and it would have been a slap in the face to me, as a woman fan, to have NOT gotten my splash page pose for these women when they are all in the same place and time. Imagine this scene in a DC movie.  It’d just be Diana!!!!

It’s like the battle was gender-seggregated (women to the left, men to the right) and Thanos kind of entered the girls-only part of the battle, which felt, like I said, way too forced to get applause from certain sections of the audience. 

I don’t know, I feel like explicitly stating you can’t take joy and pride in the achievements of (and pandering to) women, says a lot more about you than it does the movie.

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6 years ago

@84 I think Steve did an alternate timeline so he could be with Peggy.

IDK, I imagine we’ll be told one way or another, but I don’t think so.  I think that he was in our timeline the whole time, and was just riding things out, because he knew that so long as he stayed out of their way it would all work out. And then when Steve 1.0 was awoken out of the ice, he went away from Peggy, because he knew Steve would be back around and couldn’t risk being seen.  Peggy may have even been in on it, and faking her Alzheimer’s to keep Steve from getting too close to her. 

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6 years ago

@84 Nat went around murdering people, too.

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6 years ago

How to reconcile the snappening of Thanos et al: when Tony snapped his fingers he didn’t kill them, he just sent them back to 2014 with no knowledge from present day Nebula.

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JDubs
6 years ago

I’m not the biggest Captain America fan but when he called Mjolnir and Thor said “I knew it” was easily one of the brightest points of the movie for me.  What they did with Tony was equally heartbreaking as it was fantastic!  He made amends with his dad, Pepper fully understood him, and he went out as his real self, a hero.

I’m still rolling my eyes from the “girl power” scene.  That was just terrible.  The women of the MCU are awesome, they always have been and they have always fought side-by-side with the men.  For me this scene had the total opposite effect of what it was supposed to have.  Separating the women from the men to prove their badass’ness does the total opposite.  It puts them on a team of their own, separate from the men.  Why is “girl power” so important when “power” by itself will do just fine?  I love these women character (minus Captain Marvel) and I can assure you they are totally awesome on their own without us having a fire hose shoved down our throats!!

 

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6 years ago

Why is “girl power” 

Try being denied power your whole life because you’re a girl and get back to me on that!

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Sean
6 years ago

I honestly feel like captain marvel would have been better if she had been dusted in her own mid credit scene. I have no dislike for the character, I feel like after over a year of them hinting towards her playing a “big role” to have her completely removed from play right before endgame would have been a kick in the gut “omg what do we do now” moment that could have up the ante for the film.  Hell she is only in the movie a total of 10 minutes she might as well not even be in it. The ONLY thing we’ve seen her do that nobody else could have done at the time is save Tony and Nebula, I don’t think it would have been hard to find a reasonable alternative to her rescuing them. The Russo bros also said that “we will see her specific weaknesses exploited in endgame” so her specific weakness is getting punched in the face by the power stone?  🤦🏻‍♂️ I just feel like especially since she didn’t really come into the fight until AFTER all of the other characters were brought back they could have done so many more creative things with her and totally underutilized her character. Like she arrives at the same time she did but has that moment of “where’s Fury” and at that point the Avengers know what side she’s on and the fight is really on. 

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6 years ago

I truly love how nobody is getting that this movie is just an advertisment for the Captain Marvel movie.  The point isn’t to give her an arc in this one, it’s to get you haters into the theater for HER’S!

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Sean
6 years ago

what???? In no way is this movie an advertisement for captain marvel if that were the case this movie would have been released first. I’m just saying alluding to her being the heavy hitter they need only to use her how they did was pretty pointless. She could have (should have) been much MUCH more useful and important to this film had they gone about it differently. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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littlebit_liz
6 years ago

@85 Aeryl – Thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth with that whole comment. I was starting to think I was the only one who appreciated that scene. Yeah, it was super on the nose, but that was the point. I loved what that scene stood for. 

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6 years ago

@93, Captain Marvel’s role in the movie is to make you curious about her.  It’s to convince the haters, who refused to see the “girl’s movie” out of spite, or disinterest, or because they fell into the hell hole that is YouTube’s algorithm, to give her a fair shot.  She didn’t come into this movie and dominate the longer term characters, which a lot of people feared.  She came to supplement them.

It was to get the haters to have second thoughts.  That’s why no questions are asked or answered about her, aside from the fact that Thor “likes this one”, so that you will go see her movie to get those answers.  That’s why it’s released while CM is still in theaters. 

They didn’t WANT to go about it differently.  If Cap or Tony or Thor had been denied their awesome moment so Carol could punch Thanos again, you’d be pissed.  And you should be pissed if that happened.  As much as I love Carol, I’d have been pissed if the characters I’ve followed for 20 movies had gotten shortchanged for her.  I wasn’t here for Carol, I was here for Steve, and Tasha, and Thor, and Rocket and Nebula…

And at the end of the day, she singlehandedly destroyed Thanos’ space fleet.  That’s not nothing, and that’s certainly not something any other member of the Avengers could have done.

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BookBarbarian
6 years ago

@61 Thanos thought the snap would finally get the universes population to see that balance is better, and they would control their own populations from then on.

At least that’s the impression I got.

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6 years ago

@96 Post Snap Tasha never even bothered to get a haircut, and the rest of the population just outright refused to even try cleaning up the mess, but yeah THAT was gonna happen. 

Thanos was an asshole who just wanted to kill a lot of people, who shrouded his murderous desires in a veil of bullshit to make him seem altruistic.  He didn’t actually put any more thought into it than that. 

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littlebit_liz
6 years ago

Yeah, possibly I watch too much Criminal Minds (okay, I KNOW I watch too much Criminal Minds heh), but anyone who thinks Thanos was truly coming from a place of logic with his plan is off base. He may have been coming from a place of logic when he first suggested halving the population to the people on his own planet – albeit, ruthless, possibly sociopathic logic – but I think once his planet destroyed itself, it drove him a little mad, the way grief often does. It was his trigger. (Stressor? I get those confused.) After that, his commitment to seeing his plan through became pathological. So all the “holes” in his logic – yeah, I don’t think he really cared. He wasn’t thinking like that.

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

pathro@67:

Its safe to assume that in Cap’s new timeline Hank still invents Pym Particles. And since that timeline likely doesn’t have Hydra infiltrate SHIELD, and Cap is part of the leadership of SHIELD, they could likely develop the whole project more quickly. In otherwords, while its not dealt with in the movie, its totally possible that Cap traveled from his new reality to his old one on a device from his new reality. And it may have been a one-way trip, after Peggy’s death.

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

Fanreath, Aeryl@86:

No way that Cap and Peggy being married is the Prime timeline. That would require Cap to not tell Peggy about HYDRA infiltrating SHIELD. It would require him to not rescue Bucky. It would require him to not stop Bucky from killing Howard Stark, who is his friend. It would require Howard Stark NOT KNOWING THAT PEGGY, HIS PARTNER, is married to Steve Rodgers. And Fury knew Peggy as well. So he didn’t know Cap was her husband either? And it requires Sharon Carter to not have known who her own uncle was (or to be a very, very naughty girl.)

Cap being Peggy’s husband in our timeline makes no sense when you think about it for more than 2 seconds. It requires hm to allow the mass murder of many, many people when he knows they are going to happen. This is the same guy who wouldn’t sign the Sokovia Accords because he wouldn’t stand by when he could stop something from happening.

The only way Old Cap works, and doesn’t break what has been established both in the MCU as a whole, and in this movie in particular, is if he lived out the rest of his life in another timeline, then traveled to this one in order to give Falcon the shield, and explain why he didn’t come back.

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6 years ago

Peggy’s brother died in the war, and she had no children.  Whatever Sharon’s actual relation to Peggy, she was not her actual once removed aunt.  She was probably the cousin of Sharon’s grandparents, making her an “aunt” in the most loosest sense. 

And I have cousins in the same generation whose husbands I’ve never met, so I don’t find it odd that Sharon doesn’t remember her Great Aunt Peggy’s reclusive husband bearing a striking resemblance to Steve Rogers.

And yes, I can see Peggy declaring that the pressures of a sexist society demand she keep her life and work separate, and not share personal details with Howard, Pym, or Fury.

And again, yes, if Steve chose to do this, he did so mindful of the fact that he has to sit it out, that he has to prioritize his own desires over what would be best for the world.

To me, Steve’s acceptance of that, of getting to a point where he puts the fight down, that is the greatest ending I could envision for him.  He purposefully sacrificed so much, and once he was brought back, never once questioned his commitment to the world.  After fighting of alien invasions, flying to space, meeting Carol, who correctly points out other worlds don’t have Avengers, knowing that Earth will survive without his intervention, to achieve that sort of serenity with his place in the world, it moves me to tears. 

Everyone else keeps saying “but Steve would never allow that to happen.  He would stop Hydra and save Bucky”  Yes, the Steve who was awakened in 2012(the one who beat our current Steve’s American Ass, mind) would never, he would try to get Bucky and stop Hydra.

He could save millions.  Perhaps, or he could cause the death of the whole planet, drawing Thanos too soon.  He’s seen the damage Tony’s caused in his pursuit of trying to prevent every bad thing from happening.  He knows how it ends if he does nothing, and has decided that’s a price he’s willing to pay for peace.   And again, nothing that the world goes through, no matter how harrowing, between 1946-2012, is as bad as what it goes through after Loki invades New York.  So yeah, I think he could abide.  I think he knew the past, where his strength wasn’t needed, because he already knew it came out OK, was the only place he could achieve that peace.  I don’t think Steve decided to stay with Peggy because he had another battle to fight, I think he was done with battle, and knew whatever the post UnSnap world held for him, there would be battle for him, and instead sought the grace of peace he knew lay in the past.

And I also disagree that this is disproven by the Ancient One.  There has so far not once established alternate timelines in the MCU.  Yes, different dimensions that require an expanded type of perception, but not alternate timelines.  I think people are making assumptions about the possibility of multiple timelines, when the Ancient One explicitly cautions against it.  Between that, and Bruce’s assertion that time has to move one way for each person, I think the movie is explicitly shutting down multiple timelines.  There is just one, and the stones protect it.  The movie also didn’t take time to linger over the repercussions of the destruction of the Infinity Stones, but I think they are a factor in how the resolution doesn’t break the timeline.  The Ancient One implies that it’s the loss of ANY Infinity Stone disrupts the timeline, she just uses Time because she knows the role it plays against Dormammu.  So my own theory is that because Steve is from the timeline where there are no more Infinity Stones, he is no longer constrained by the rules imposed by the stones to protect the timeline.  And the fact that the Thanos that was defeated by the Stones came from a time when the Stones still existed, his absence will be corrected by the Stones, therefore not impacting the future timeline, ensuring he will still gather all 6 stones and do the Snap, keeping the timeline intact.

Now, this doesn’t preclude that Steve conceivably could break the timeline because of his decision.  But I could see him going back, resolved to not disrupt the future he knows is coming.

The closest evidence to the possibility of multiple timelines existing, is Loki escaping 2012 Stark Tower with the Tesseract.  However, that is allegedly what the Disney+ show is about, so I imagine that will be resolved, explaining whether he lives in an alternate timeline, or he will find a way to escape forward in time, to possibly meet up with Thor, still angry and resentful, with none of the growth he’s undergone since.(I am legit tickled by this possibility).  In many ways, bringing Loki to the current timeline, if the “solution” to the problem Loki creates for the repaired timeline is to move him through time and space to a time where there are no more stones, bolsters my theory that it’s all one timeline. 

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

@101:

I guess we’ll have to watch the movie again. I came away with a concrete understanding of the temporal mechanics at play, and felt the script went to great lengths to explain them. They are completely at odds with what you are describing you took away. I certainly won’t claim I’m right and you’re wrong after a single viewing of an incredibly packed movie.

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Pepetideo
6 years ago

I hated most of it… And cannot believe many of my friends loved it.

Still trying to wrap my head around what was there to like about this…

 

 

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Pepetideo
6 years ago

Spoiler alert… If you shave not see. It don’t read this

Can someone explain to me how you can make the entire plot about how the read fluid things are required to go back and forth in time and then with a bit of hacking by a clever android she is able to transport a ginormous ship with millions of badies forward in time… No red juice required no special uniforms if helmets

 

Also… captain Mavel is somehow able to ,in movement single strike, destroy the entire spaceship but she somehow needs the help of a bunch of run-of-the-mill superhero characters to travel 100 yards to a van?

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6 years ago

Absolutely, no question that Cap is in a different timeline.  Those mechanics were pretty clearly laid out and I thought pretty reasonable to understand.  I think the returning the stones to their point of departure is probably a little hand-wavey, but sometimes you simply have to create your own rules for the entertainment value and I think they did a pretty good job of being consistent with the rules created.  Cap being alive in the main timeline and secretly married to Peggy the whole time with no one knowing seems pretty impossible and unrealistic.  I think he simply manages to come back to his own timeline at the end through a mechanism created in his new timeline as referenced in several comments above. 

The Ancient One and Dr. Hulk very clearly laid out how the multiple timelines worked, The Ancient One’s biggest concern be that her own timeline not be destroyed which is where returning the stones to their exact moments from when they were taken came in to play.  Nowhere in that discussion did that eliminate the existence of the other timelines/universes, it simply continued the existence of the original timeline.  The time travel antics now created a number of alternate timelines that are also going to play out and may in fact intersect again at some time in the future.

I found all the female characters gathering at one point to fight a little unlikely, but that did not at all ruin how awesome the scene itself was.  It’s a movie, unrealistic things sometimes happen, much as they do in books and other forms of entertainment.  Wow, it’s amazing all of our protagonists from different backgrounds end up in the same place, how could that have happened?  It happens because we are following those protagonists because they are all going to end up together.  If different characters were going to end up together for the climactic scene, those are the ones the movie would have followed or the book would have been written about.

Why doesn’t Captain Marvel have a bigger role?  For the same reason that Superman generally doesn’t work in a team-up of DC superheroes.  If you have one hero who is so much more powerful than all of the rest, what do you need the rest of the heroes for?  That, and Captain Marvel gave us the perfect reason for her continued absence in the end credit scenes to her own movie.  Why wasn’t she around protecting Earth, because there are thousands of planets that don’t have the Avengers to protect them.  Nor, was her role meaningless.  Her destruction of Thanos’ ship is pretty critical to the survival of the heroes, which none of the rest of the heroes could have managed because they also had to deal with Thanos.  Captain Marvel was a new player in the dynamic which allowed the heroes to maintain their relative positions against Thanos and his troops while she destroyed the ship.

Was Endgame perfect, of course not, no movie ever is.  Was there anything in it that ruined it for me, not even close.  If possible, my wife and I will try and steal some time to watch it again in the theaters and we will be watching all of the MCU with our kids over the Summer so that we can have a special viewing of Endgame when its released for home viewing in a few months.

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

@105:

Why doesn’t Captain Marvel have a bigger role?  For the same reason that Superman generally doesn’t work in a team-up of DC superheroes.  If you have one hero who is so much more powerful than all of the rest, what do you need the rest of the heroes for?

To take care of the Kryptonite. Or because she can’t be in more than one place at a time. But we don’t know what Carol’s Kryptonite is yet, so they went with the latter. She was needed in SPAAAAAACE! until, you know, she wasn’t :)

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6 years ago

And now I hate it, thanks!

https://ew.com/movies/2019/04/30/avengers-endgame-russo-brothers-captain-america/

Russo’s address that Cap staying the the past creates branched timelines, he keeps fighting, so really what was the point. 

I’ll keep my headcanon, thanks!

Of course, the Russos are all over the place with this, also implying that Bucky met this older Steve in his past???  And then the article closes with the fact that the Russos are known for misdirecting people(like their whole thing they didn’t know the AntMan theory while they were sharing memes about it)

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

@107:

The point was he got to do the fight in his own period of history, and make things better. He was a man out of time, and not ever able to be happy because of it. This way he gets to be the original Cap from his first run of comics (or at least, the MCU equivalent), and punch Nazis in the face. And dance with Peggy, who believed in him before he had super strength. And rescue Bucky. 

This is basically the ultimate wish fulfillment for Captain America.

This also sets up the What If shorts that Disney+ is planning on doing with Agent Carter and Captain America (Chris Evans is on board for at least one). Now we know those will be taking place in this alternate timeline. Perhaps the Loki show will as well. And the Scarlet Witch and Vision show.

Anthony Pero
6 years ago

@107:

From the Article you linked to:

Somehow, he was aware that Cap was going to live in the past, and it’s probably more than just intuition. “Especially when he says goodbye,” Joe explained. “He says, ‘I’ll miss you.’ Clearly he knows something.”

But how? Has Winter Soldier already met with Old Cap at some previous point? It seems the answer is yes.

This is the supposition of the writer. Who clearly doesn’t completely understand the timeline comment right above it. The writer says its more than intuition, and has already met the older Cap. The Russos don’t. Its totally possible that Bucky just knows his friend really well, and knows what he’ll do.

Its also possible that Old Man Rodgers traveled back to this reality prior to Cap taking the Stones back to their own realities, and met with Bucky separately to tell him what was going to happen. Although I don’t know why he would do that. Either way, there seems to be a chance we’ll get an answer on that in a short on Disney+ in the future.

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6 years ago

@108

The point was he got to do the fight in his own period of history, and make things better.

Except there is no evidence whatsoever that things would be made better by Steve using his foreknowledge to intervene like that, and plenty of evidence that trying to make things better in the future is more likely to make it worse. 

Which is why I don’t think he would risk changing the future at all.  He knows what happens if he does nothing.  He doesn’t know what happens if he tries, like Tony, to “help”, but he knows for certain he could make things worse.  Perhaps his actions indicate to the rest of the galaxy that the Earth is ready for a “higher form of war” decades before they are prepared?  Perhaps his actions catch Thanos’ attention in the 60s.  There are too many things that can go wrong trying to “make things better”, and the Steve who closes these movies has learned that better than anyone.   

He was a man out of time, and not ever able to be happy because of it. 

We disagree about why he was unable to be happy.  It wasn’t because he was “out of his time” it’s because he was never going to be able to put his obligation to the world down.  From the moment he woke up, the world needed him more than it ever did, and he never got a break.  He never got a chance to learn if he could integrate into the present.   The past, where he knew he wasn’t actually needed, is the one place he would no longer feel obligated to put the world before himself, because from 1946-2012 he wasn’t needed.   The world survived without him.  And it may not survive post 2023 without him. But he knew there was one place he could go, where it would survive.  

Also

This is the supposition of the writer.

There is a lot in that article that is either the writer paraphrasing their answers, or supposing, and it’s not apparent which is which.  At the end of the day, I lean towards the Russos trolling fandom, especially since they seem eager to tell the story of how he got to that bench, as you see in the article.

Now, as I say, I agree that Steve could create an alternate timeline, but I don’t think he wants to.  I think he wants to live out his days in the prime timeline.

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6 years ago

Wow, Aeryl, I don’t think it’s possible to have more opposite views of Steve Rogers. Trying to picture him spending decades being happy as he lies to his wife and watches untold thousands of people dying when he could have saved them, because he can’t imagine a world being better than the broken, miserable one he left behind in the future? He thinks that the only, the best thing he can do is do nothing, to lie down and never get up again as he watches innocents die?

I can’t imagine that as a good ending for Steve Rogers. I find the timeline stuff confusing so I picture him convincing Carter it’s a dream as they have that dance, and then he runs off to explore the universe. I can picture him thinking he doesn’t dare change the past that he knows about but thinking he’s safe in places where he never existed much more easily than picturing him just watching his wife celebrate making Hydra successful and never connecting with any of the other friends he had in the 40s — family back in New York, the other Commandos, etc. Reading the newspaper to see when Bucky kills Howard. Etc. 

Heck, maybe the one solution Strange saw was Cap going back after this victory to make sure the snap never happened. Because I don’t think Steve Rogers would be happy doing nothing when there are things to be done. Even if he is tired. We definitely agree that he’s tired, but we disagree that he’s changed his mind about not trading lives. It’s a good thing no one sent him after the soul stone. (Although I still like my head canon that Red Skull is lying and if one person stands at the cliff the stone shows up. The other person could just walk back down the mountain instead of falling/being pushed off the cliff.)

Sunspear
6 years ago

If they tell the story of Old Man Rogers in the What If series, that alone will get a crap ton of subscribers.

DC should maybe take a page as well and pretend some of their recent dark and gloomy movies were Elseworlds.  

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6 years ago

Trying to picture him spending decades being happy as he lies to his wife a

Who says he has to lie to Peggy?

Again, why is no one pondering the repercussions of interfering with the timeline.  Steve saw, that for all the people who died what could be considered. “preventable” deaths, billions more survived.

Again, where does Hydra if Steve stops it from infiltrating SHIELD?   If Steve rescues Bucky, do the other Winter Soldiers we learned about in Civil War get activated for his missions instead, with even more horrifying consequences.  Natasha survives her encounter with Bucky, would she if it was someone other than Bucky?  Maybe he’d just go for her head to get to her protectee, instead of shooting through her abdomen? 

What if Steve’s actions cause the death of Fury while in combat overseas, he never joins SHIELD, never meets Carol, never creates the Avengers. 

Because, even if you aren’t thinking about those things, I bet Steve is. 

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6 years ago

Aeryl, you missing an important point, I think. He’s not living in our timeline. The moment he stayed past the time he was supposed to come back, an entirely new timeline was created. That’s the rules of time travel in that universe. As of the moment he went back, nothing from any movie we’ve seen counts. They never happened, and they never will (or at least, not in nearly the same way). In the SteveStays timeline, Thor and Loki are still chillin’ in Asgard, none of the other Avengers have even been born yet, and only the events of First Avenger matter. He can take what he knows from the Prime timeline (that Bucky is alive and HYDRA is still kicking) and use that knowledge however he wants. Rescue Bucky? Sure. Dismantle HYDRA? Why not? None of what he does will change what happened in the Prime MCU. The movies we enjoyed all happened regardless of Steve’s decision to stay because there’s a whole ‘nother MCU out there that we can’t see, and he’s in it.

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Owlay
6 years ago

Easter eggs/References:

New Asgard is in the same place that Odin gave his big speech and died in Thor: Ragnarok
The female superheroes teaming up is a reference to the A-Force comics
On the Vanishing Memorial, the name of an X-men character is mentioned: Roberto da Costa / Sunspot. The character is a part of the New Mutants and X-Force, both of which are getting movies.
When Captain America and Iron Man travel back to 1970, Arnim Zola’s voice is heard off-screen
Harley from Iron Man 3 at Iron Man’s funeral

Are there any more?

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Zabriskie Point 2: Zabriskier Point
6 years ago

The helmet in the lab in the 70s is a reference to the comics antman helmet

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Whiskey Man
6 years ago

Potential future Easter eggs:

Rocket talks about the effects of the snap “ground zero” for cosmic anomalies… mutants?

Okoye mentions tremors at the earths core…. namor?

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Owlay
6 years ago

Here are more Easter Eggs I have noticed:

 

Edwin Jarvis,who was with Howard Stark, was the same actor from the Agent Carter show.

Howard the duck is in the assemble scene.

New Asgard is also in the same place that Red Skull discovered the tesseract in The First Avenger.

Natasha had a pair of ballet slippers on her chair after talking with the distributed team, before Captain America comes in.

The song playing when Steve and Peggy are dancing in the final scene is the same song playing when Steve sneaks into his own apartment to find a shot Nick Fury in Winter Soldier.

Robert Downey Jr plays a character called Tony Stark, who also features in a series of comics.

 

 

oh… dammit… it seems I do notice way too many things…

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Owlay
6 years ago

Another interesting fact: Sunspot was also an Avenger in the Hickman run. (And led his own team of Avengers after he bought AIM)

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Erekose
6 years ago

I must admit while it would’ve made no sense I was kind of hoping Thor would keep mjolnir and ditch stormbreaker …

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6 years ago

@114, I am well aware of that, thank you.   The objections I am raising about everyone’s insistence that Steve would meddle with past events are relevant regardless of what timeline he is in.

If the ONLY thing that changed in the SteveStays timeline, is his presence, then him doing nothing should result in the same things happening as the Prime timeline.  Okay, our prime timeline stays the same, but what about the SteveStays timeline.  His intervention in history based on his limited knowledge of the past could lead to all the hypotheticals I suggest, and more.  His actions have the very real, and more likely consequence of turning the SteveStays timeline into an unlivable hellhole, with a Hydra ascendent empowered USSR, every major city a smoking ruin from a nuclear exchange, and a dead Natasha, killed by a more ruthless Winter Soldier, and the Avengers are never formed.  

Steve absolutely can not predict the outcomes of his actions, but he knows the outcome of his deciding not to act is an acceptable one.  Yes, the Steve of 1944, or even 2012 would not have hesitated to intervene in the past on the possibility of making an impact that improves the timeline.  The Steve of 2023 knows better.

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Aaron
6 years ago

Peter Parker would NEVER EVER EVER use “full kill mode.”

They truly missed the core of his character with that one line and it ruined most of the final battle for me.

PhilipWardlow
6 years ago

I was FINE with EVERYTHING Mentioned in your post ..meaning I like the negative stuff you didn’t like and also liked all the positive stuff you liked as well.  When you have a movie that’s basically everyone agrees is  a Straight A    then we are complaining about  little things that caused it not to be an A+.   WHY?  Because of Time travel? Do you understand Time Travel 100% …  Gratuitous  2seconds of face time for some  and not other and not others….really? who Cares…they all deserve recognition in any small way…but ensembles are ensembles and everyone has that someone they want to see more of. 

I think the jokes on THORS Depression (less PTSD)  about his “failure” were fine and  were addressed by his mother..,. after all he’s a god not a puny human..and who he is Thor going to respect more than either his father or mother in the end regarding himself.   People criticized and didn’t care about Tony Starks valid PTSD in Iron Man III and just bitched it was a boring movie cuz it was less Iron Man and more Tony Stark….( and of course how they handled another character)  Thor Ragnorok was more a disservice to the Thor charcter in regards to tone by far.

Professor Hulk was awesome.. Hands down.   Enjoy the funny.. lighten up there were enough serious moments to go around in this movie. 

 

The only problem I saw was that I wanted the last movie in this chapter to last even longer and to live in the wonderful world that was created :)

Cheers to the next PHASE!

 

 

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Allen Batson
6 years ago

Don’t call me King of Asgard, just call me The Dude.

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Keith
6 years ago

I don’t get the whole “Sam is the new Captain America”.

Why? What’s so special about Sam? He’s got a flying attack suit. That makes him more suited to being the next Iron Man. Cap had the super soldier serum and a heart of gold.

Handing the shield to Sam doesn’t make him Captain America. It was my least favorite part of the film.

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Keith
6 years ago

Steve coming back as an old man broke the story’s time travel rules, right? The idea was that when you went back in time, it became a different timeline, right? So, it made no sense that Steve stayed in one of those timelines and somehow grew old in the “main” timeline. Or did I miss something?

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James
6 years ago

I loved how they handled Captain Marvel. She was my biggest worry for this movie. Basically, she’s Marvel’s Superman. I certainly didn’t want DC’s approach of “well, the Justice League couldn’t handle it, but good thing we’ve got Superman ready to step in and fix everything.” Giving her the excuse of cleaning up the entire Galaxy was believable for having her off-screen most of the entire movie. She helped in the final battle, but wasn’t the deciding factor. Basically, she wasn’t the easy button in human form, and winning the battle required real sacrifice and not just sending in the muscle. I couldn’t be happier with how they handled her and DC should be taking notes.

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Mel
6 years ago

In our theater, the biggest applause and loudest cheering was reserved for the moment that Spider-Man appeared. No question about it; it wasn’t even close.

And there was a LOT of cheering throughout the movie.

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6 years ago

Ruffalo’s stubbled face grafted on to the Other Guy is an absolute triumph of CGI.

ehhh…it was pretty good, but not nearly as good as the facial capture of Brolin-as-Thanos. Some of the Thanos body mo-cap was a bit stiff, sometimes, but then, maybe being nearly as wide as you are tall (ok, an bit of an exaggeration) makes for really stocky, stiff movement sometimes (except in battle, whew! they seemed to really get the physics right there!)…
The facial animators got Brolin’s acting (here & in Infinity War!) perfect.

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DragonRhapsody
6 years ago

AS A MOTHER, there is ONE HATED FUCKING SCENE that NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT!!!!

TONY DIDN’T BRUSH MORGAN’S TEETH!!!!!

He gave her a fucking Popsicle and LET HER GO TO SLEEP WITHOUT BRUSHING OR RINSING HER MOUTH!!! 

WORST PARENTING MOMENT. Also, who’s kid ACTUALLY GOES TO SLEEP ON THEIR OWN, especially after consuming RAW SUGAR!??!?!?!?!

I have so much parental rage at this scene!!!! It would have been better if he gave her a protein snack, brushed her teeth and jumped into bed with her to cuddle until she fell asleep. Like EVERY OTHER PARENT out there probably does!!

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6 years ago

@@@@@125 Sam has already BEEN Captain America in the comics.
Disney’s new streaming service will be debuting a show called, currently (I can see it changing in the wake of Endgame!) ‘Falcon & The Winter Soldier

HTH.

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positive force
6 years ago

Many good reactions & ideas here. Thanks, all. Nice to enjoy it together.

When Steve moved Mjolnir slightly in Avengers I, I always took it as him moving it enough to know he could (for his own curiosity’s sake?) but knowing Thor’s ego liked being Big Worthy Man on Campus. Cap has no problem sacrificing his own ego for a teammate’s. He goes into Endgame knowing its one of his strategic options. I think Thor does, too; why else get it from Asgard?

The whole timeline rules are established basically to prevent too much chaos. Stones returned to their previous times, all loose ends tied up (except Loki running around with the Cube). I do think Cap has to be circumspect when he goes back to be with Peggy — there’s a reason they’re dancing inside the house instead of out in public. Maybe she still marries her husband and has a little Cap on the side? We now know that for Cap it wasn’t just that he couldn’t have a normal life after he came out of the ice, it was that he couldn’t have a normal life without her. 

I love that someone cited Black WIdow as having balanced the ledger with her sacrifice. I think that works. A whole lot of people trying to balance things in human and terrible ways in this movie. 

The more I think about it, the more this felt like the Prayer for Owen Meany of superhero blockbusters. Everything had to be set up just so — heroes, tech, character arcs — to make it work. Tony’s clearly at the center of that, but you have time thief Antman equipped and ready, Banner saying, “It’s like I was made for this” as he brings back 1/2 the universe, Natasha’s sacrifice, Cap and Thor prepared to hold off Thanos just long enough for the cavalry to appear.

 

My biggest problem with the movie is they should’ve snapped back to the time before the Snapture. A universe where half of all living things were gone for five years and the rest remained to mourn them would be full of PTSD, disjointed life arcs, disrupted ecosystems. All just to give us some wonderful scenes with Morgan Stark? Maybe she becomes Kang and goes back to correct this…

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6 years ago

@121 

Aeryl, again, we see Steve Rogers completely differently, and I’m interested. What does Steve do that make you think he’s become so passive, that he’d think anything he’d do would make things worse? Because in the ENDGAME movie I watched, when he had a chance to make things better, he jumped on it. And in all previous movies he’s been in, he’s also been one to stand up even if he didn’t think he’d succeed. So you saw something that indicated a major change, and I’d love to know what that was!

(I still can’t believe that Peggy Carter, who hasn’t lived through all this, would just accept that the best of all possible worlds comes from her letting Hydra run SHIELD. I’m not sure where your conviction that nothing can change for the better comes from. And I don’t understand the physics behind your assumption that the only change that wouldn’t matter is him getting to marry Peggy Carter and anything else would create a mess. But these are all farther removed from the source material than the fundamental change in Steve that I’d love to understand.)

@130 I caught that! I figure Tony Stark made a better tooth sealant and tooth brushing isn’t as important. And lots of kids go to sleep after sugar — there’s a whole trope around having hot chocolate when you wake up in the night with a nightmare. Heck, for all we know they are sugar free popsicles.

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Arthur Hansen
6 years ago

You guys are missing an important point about Natasha Romanov sacrificing herself for Clint (and his family).

She’s their youngest kids godmother.

What does bringing back Clint’s family back while he’s dead? That family deserved some happiness. And having them have to grieve their dad’s death would be horrible.

BonHed
6 years ago

One theory about how Steve got back to the main timeline… he appeared on the main pad after everyone else did but before Thanos arrived. He knows how it turns out and got the hell out of the way, then made his way to the bench however many days later that scene happened. Bucky figured out what Steve was going to do, which is why he said he’d miss him. What he got up to in the alternate timeline is anyone’s guess, and how they resolved the paradox of 2 Steves in one timeline is also a mystery. Maybe we’ll get it in the What If…? show.

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6 years ago

I really wanted to see Hulk get into the fight. After seeing him get his butt kicked in Infinity War, I thought he would definitely get another opportunity to face Thanos and redeem his weak efforts. That was a huge disappointment! Professor Hulk was more like Professor Wuss.

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Wine Guy
6 years ago

The Deus ex Machina of Captain Marvel… twice in one movie.  Once makes a movie.  Twice makes me ask things like this – 

Why didn’t they just say “Super-Dooper Marvel, please go fix this” and then go have some pizza whilst she took care of business?

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Contrarius
6 years ago

Has anyone mentioned this one yet? –>

What bugged me the most was this: The world has spent five years with half of its original population. Naturally, the world’s agricultural systems will be geared to producing food for only that many people. So, if you suddenly DOUBLE the number of people on Earth, they’re all gonna starve! No way can you double the world’s food production with the snap of your fingers. (heh.)

Likewise: everyone who didn’t get snapped will now be five years older, while all the ones who did will be their original age. Yet Peter is back in high school, **and so are all his buddies** — at least half of whom should have graduated college by now.

And where are all these returnees gonna live? The abandoned homes will have deteriorated by now, and many of the people who didn’t get snapped will have moved into the homes of people who did get snapped — leading to bazillions of housing conflicts. And all the stuff left behind by the snapped people will have either disintegrated or been appropriated by people who didn’t get snapped. Where are they going to get clothes? Cars? Jobs?

IOW, the Avengers have just created an apocalypse by bringing everyone back en masse. Good job, guys!

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6 years ago

@139 In the unlikely event that no government has been stockpiling food as part of its normal national emergency planning (and most governments hold at least a small stockpile; although admittedly as we in the UK found out earlier this year, ours doesn’t because…reasons?) to cover the gap between arrival and the next growing season, they can still introduce rationing. As long as they are quick enough to step the food production back up, and I don’t see why that would be hard with the workforce swelling (bad news for wages though, surplus of workers almost always means the wages/work hour ratio turns against the employee), it wouldn’t be more than one year on rationing. That is doable.

Same with everything else, short term hardship (rationing, billeting, draft measures, nothing they wouldn’t already have done with the first snap previously so the infrastructure and experience needed is still fresh), and then a return to stability within two-three years. The biggest damage of the snaps is not the mechanisms of civilisation, it is the emotional damage to indivduals.

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Contrarius
6 years ago

@140 —

“to cover the gap between arrival and the next growing season, they can still introduce rationing. As long as they are quick enough to step the food production back up, and I don’t see why that would be hard with the workforce swelling”

Nonono.

You can’t double livestock numbers in a year, much less get double the amount of meat slaughtered and to market. You can’t revive half the world’s agricultural fields in a year, nor repair all the rusted farm equipment necessary to grow and harvest those fields. It ain’t gonna work.

And try putting yourself on half rations for a year. You’re gonna starve.

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6 years ago

I have a suspicion that, after seeing that we are threatened by possible additional alien attacks at every moment, every government and every person left behind after the snap started acting like doomsday preppers and stocking up on all sorts of food, water and survival stuff. And the world still has the arable land that fed the larger population, with only half being used in the past five years, so the soil should be good and ready for additional crops again.

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Chris
6 years ago

@141 – 

I can’t speak for other countries, but a few years back, I saw a study that found that in the USA, approximately half of all food produced gets thrown away uneaten. Proper rationing would work here.

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6 years ago

@141. You can bring large amounts of land into production real quickly, and boost livestock production too, it was done in Europe during WW2. You just have to pick the right strains of stuff. Strict rationing sucks, but, again, in the short term of a year or so it is liveable with. You are not going to starve, but you are going to feel hungry and/or unsatisfied with the taste of it. It can be done, in the short term. And the short term is all that would be needed because it would be possible to spin agriculture and food production back up again really quickly for essentials, with more luxury goods and luxury produce taking a little while longer.

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MeepMeep
6 years ago

Nat’s death was the culmination of ten years of storytelling. From the spy who abuses Tony’s trust in Iron Man 2, to someone willing to make a stand in New York, to the woman willing to be all things to all people in Winter Soldier as she tries to figure out who she is and who she should be to others… she grows into a truly heroic person who won’t give up on the universe and won’t allow Clint’s children to grow up without a father. 

And honestly, it wouldn’t have felt believable to have Clint win that last fight when historically, Nat has kicked his ass every time they go head to head.

So basically, going from being a cold blooded killer to the woman who dies to save the universe is fitting. Her willing sacrifice was incredibly potent, and a very appropriate way to go. The memorial by the lake felt too short, like it didn’t give enough, but you could see Brulk aching over what might have been. They acknowledged that the Avengers were her people, and she clearly loved them. It was exactly the kind of memorial she would have wanted.

As for Thor – sure, the initial reaction was played for laughs, but a big part of humor is surprise. Honestly, his fallout from Infinity War felt more real and painful to me than anyone else’s. You could SEE the agony in his eyes, and his refusal to acknowledge it. It was heartbreaking to watch, and Hemsworth pulled it off perfectly. He was powerful and valorous. He became a warrior focused not on revenge, but redemption. Fingers crossed that he’ll will turn up in the next Guardians movie. 

I adored the callbacks to the other movies. Even getting a glimpse of Wong, Valkyrie, Wasp, everyone else, rang true and right for me. It made sense to me that the original six were the focus, because this was the end of half of them.

I’m not a fan of time travel stuff normally, but loved the time heist. I loved Nebula’s growth from a basic villain to one of the bravest women in the MCU. I wished we’d had more Captain Marvel, but I think her reason for being away made sense, and she had some shining moments anyway. I chortled with glee when Thanos punched her in the face and she didn’t even flinch, he had to resort to using the Power Stone to affect her. And, I’m glad she wasn’t the focus of the movie even though I love her, because it would have taken away from Natasha, Tony, and Cap (who got the sweetest, most deserved happy ending, and I’m just not going to worry too much about the time travel implications). 

In short… I loved it so much. There were flaws, but no movie is perfect. It was the right ending to a ten year story arc and it was both gratifying and painful to watch.

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Ross Bauer
6 years ago

It’s not really fat shaming if its Thor. The fact remains Thor has never really fucked up in the MCU, even when he’s exiled to Earth and is not worthy of Mjolnir he learns a valuable lesson, one he forgets by the time Infinity War rolls around, that he can make mistakes. He gets carried away with his battle ending involvement in Wakanda that he reverts to his Thor 1 braggadocio and taunts when he should have been decisive. That failure leads directly to the snap, causing Thor, a flawless God to be the idiot that let half the universe die. Instead of brooding and allowing the weight of all that loss turn him into a suicidal wreck he opts to insulate himself with a blanket of alcoholic oblivion. Like the other Avengers, he can’t move on but it’s the way he’s been written that prevents him from suddenly becoming soberly serious. If Thor had been written as a more human character from the beginning, he might have come across as more pitiable, but increasingly his character is played for laughs to the point where, in Ragnarok, the loss of the Warriors 3, his best friends,  does not seem to affect him and perhaps it is this persona he has built up that makes him a target when he is less than his glittering golden self. Had they gotten the tone of his character right from the first film, his scenes in Endgame might have had gravitas, but as it is, it’s in keeping with his portayal, with his private suffering hidden behind a facade many wrongly consider to be fat-shaming. 

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Owlay
6 years ago

And, hey, do you notice what Falcon becoming the new Captain America means?

It means we are now getting Captain Falcon

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Kerry Hennigan
6 years ago

Favourite things – Thor and Rocket in all their scenes.  What had become of Thor in the five years since the ‘snap’ of Infinity War was so Aussie – I had to laugh.  Just didn’t expect him to stay that way for most of the movie.  But love the idea of ‘Asgaardians of the Galaxy’ at the end.  I’m principly a Thor/Guardians fan, and that’s how I came to watch most of the other films in the MCU.  There was just not enough of some of the other characters for my liking – but I am excited by the set-up of Star Lord searching for Gamora after the big battle.  Looking forward to the next Guardians film.  If Thor sticks with them, that could work big time, just as it did for their shared scenes in Infinity War.

One big let-down was Captain Marvel – I saw her stand alone movie and was not that excited about it, but I thought it probably important in the lead-up to Endgame.  However, her powers seem a little too handy for when nothing else works, and a bit of a plot cop-out.  That and her lack of screen time had me wondering ‘why did they bother?’  No disrespect to Cap Marvel fans, but we have some awesome women in the MCU without her presence.  (By the way, loved Nebula in this – in both her ‘good’ and ‘bad’ personas.  Loved her opening scenes with Tony.)

Was sad to see the demise of Black Widow – I really liked her.  I will definitely see her stand alone film and am curious as to how they are going to work that into the Avengers story arch as it is now… except they don’t have to, do they?  (Sigh).

 

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6 years ago

@121 – Aeryl – I strongly disagree. It sounds like from your point of view, the future is written and inevitable in the SteveStays timeline. But, it isn’t. If the future was already written, then I’d agree – you’d be right, there are all kinds of things that could go horribly wrong if Steve tried to meddle in events that are destined to happen. But that’s not how time works, and I realize that we’re getting into a whole sticky philosophical debate territory here. But I believe that the moment Steve creates that other timeline, the future is unwritten and he’s just another human living there.

If he goes to rescue Bucky, could it have disastrous consequences? Sure. But in the Prime universe, Tony creating Ultron *did* have disastrous consequences. Just ask anyone living in Sakovia. What makes The Steve Who Stayed so much worse than Ultron’s creator in this example?

If Steve staying somehow leads to Tony never being born, for example… does it matter? Tony still lived and died in the Prime universe. The SteveStays universe doesn’t need Tony because universes don’t have needs, so if Tony never comes about… nobody will notice.

Lastly, looking at your response, I fear I may have come across as condescending in my original comment to you. If so, it wasn’t intentional, and I apologize.

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Sandi
6 years ago

Someone asked why Black Widow had to die for the soul stone and not someone else. It could only be Nat, in my opinion. What other duo in the group cared about each other enough that their sacrifice would bring forth the soul stone? No one. No one else could have gotten it. So the question came down to Widow or Hawkeye? It had to be Widow because Hawkeye needed to live for his family. He was too stubborn to see it because he couldn’t bear to lose his friend after all the lost he’d suffered. But Nat knew that she had no one and he had everyone. So she sacrificed herself.

We’re just lucky that Nebula and War Machine weren’t the ones sent to get the soul stone. Like, what would they have done? 

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6 years ago

I haven’t parsed _every_ line, but this diagram seems the most comprehensive way to describe the Time Heist.

https://m.imgur.com/4L6tN5u

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6 years ago

One thing I loved / hated: James D’Arcy’s Jarvis is the first character introduced in one of the TV shows to be included in one of the movies (there have been plenty of examples the other way round, but whenever there have been continuity nodes between TV and movies, it was always the TV shows including the movies continuity, never the movies referencing the TV shows). It made me wish for more Agent Carter. Except that now that Peggy has got her life with with Captain Rogers, there’s even less chance of seeing her ever again.

@9: Natasha certainly knows the history of S.H.I.E.L.D. very well. She met Red Skull… and nothing. So when Steve offered to return the stones himself, I thought that either we’d get his meeting with Red Skull in a mid-credit scene, or that 5 seconds later, we would see Steve come back to tell the others “The guardian of the Soul Stone is Red Skull???”. But that wasn’t meant to be. On that topic, the rule for the Soul Stone is “a soul for a soul”. Hence, returning the Stone should mean the cancellation of the sacrifice (somehow). The sacrifice scene didn’t really bother me, as both characters are choosing to sacrifice themselves, and are left with the agency to do so: who’s going to die is basically a coin flip. But of course, it’s not a coin flip, as it was a well-thought choice on the part of the screenwriters, and here is the problem. So if she comes back (it’s a superhero movie after all…), her temporary death will have been acceptable. If not… You’d think they would have understood after the backlash regarding Gamora’s death in the previous film…

@11: Cap getting to live with Peggy and while staying in the same timeline means Loki actually managed to get away with the Space Stone, and they’re living in that universe. I guess that’s a minor detail…

@44: Moreover, Ebony Maw was part of that army. Iron Man killed him in the main continuity, so it’s not that he’s coming back from the cancellation of the Snapture: this is 2014 Ebony Maw, whom Thanos brought with him. That’s one more dose of Pym particles needed (and wasn’t Cull Obsidian in that battle too despite having been sliced apart by Wong?).

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Jade C
6 years ago

So many fascinating factors in the film. The time travel aspect has always had me scratching my head since there are always inconsistencies in movies. I just go with the flow so I don’t get distracted with quantum physics.

Things I liked:

1. Pepper giving Tony permission to die recognizing that the only true peace and rest he would know was in death because of his nature, and giving him additional comfort by telling him, “we will be all right.” It was for me the ultimate love, i.e., seeing things from both perspectives. Not self-pity, but love and letting go.

2. The humanizing of Nebula with the tender interactions between Tony and her as they floated in space.

3. Tony being able to talk to his father as an equal. There are things we cannot learn nor understand about our parents until we have experienced parenthood ourselves. Additionally, the fact that Tony was able to truly embrace his father, metaphorically and physically, helped me to resolve the angst he felt about his relationship with his dad throughout his life.

4. A more mature Rocket, yet still a wise cracking character. I love Rocket.

5. Cap getting his due reward of the life he always wanted. He served his country, then the world, and then the universe. He deserves to experience some of what Tony talked about.

6. The Hulk/Banner mix was brilliant. An acceptance of self, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Who says you have to be one or the other? Just be yourself…and if you can’t be yourself, then be a unicorn, right?

7. Cap and Mjolnir – I’m old-fashioned. I love Captain America and his 1940s squeaky-clean chivalrous ways. What can I say other than it was a perfect way to place him on par with a god of Asgard. Just as Thor suspected, Captain America was pure and worthy as deemed by an impartial judge of character, Mjolnir. Loved it.

8. The undying tenacity of Captain America in the face of great odds is an example I can use with my students. It is a clip I would use to teach persistence and courage. It didn’t matter that there was an entire army, it was about standing for what is right and not backing down. Never say die!

 

Neither Here Nor There, Just Not in the Things I Liked Section:

1. Thanos – I am still morbidly mesmerized by this murderous character who bears no true ill-will toward anyone, other than his distaste for the Avengers. He is no super villain because there is no real rancor, no self-serving self-promotion to be the leader of the universe. His motivation is simply to make a better place to live. Perhaps, that is what is the most chilling thing about him. He made himself the judge and jury of how the universe ought to be. So, it was a fitting end that he should fly away as dust and at the hand of conflicted Tony Stark who only wanted to protect the world…and then the universe.

2. Thor as the Great Lebowski. I’m not sure I agree with how it was done, although it was ostensibly humorous, it was painful for me. Perhaps it was an attempt to underscore the grief and guilt he felt by showing the ridiculous? It humanized Thor, and as a sufferer of PTSD, the irrational thought came to mind that if even the mighty Thor could be susceptible, then I need not be ashamed. I know, irrational, but it gave me a modicum of comfort.

 

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6 years ago

“Hey Queens, heads up!”

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6 years ago

Loved the Girl Power moment in the climax.

I’m a fan of the theory of Cap retreats to alternate timeline after returning all stones, having the technology built in his alternate timeline, living a full life with Peggy, doing a little superheroing on the side, and returning after Peggy dies as Old Man Steve.

Thanos is still the greatest Supervillian.

Dude Thor was great in this movie. Everyone deals with grief differently and as someone with PTSD I could feel his response as genuine. It would have been fat shaming if he magically went skinny or if they made a sight gag about him not fitting his armor or if he couldn’t summon the hammer in his state. I personally thought it was funny and cool.

I really wished Clint would have died instead of Tasha. I liked her as Fury’s successor and she could have taught Hawkeye Jr. Everything she needed to know about the hero game. I understand why the choice was made though.

On people management after the return, people do realize that humans aren’t just restricted to Earth now, right? Tbe cat is out the bag, FTL space travel is a thing in the MCU. If I were banished in the Snap, brought back in the return, why the hell would I ever wanna stay on earth? Me and my fam are moving.

I loved this movie. Ensemble movies are hard. But they stuck the landing. It was an avalanche of fan service, call backs and easter eggs true, but that’s a feature, a reward for the 11 year investment. It’s a comic book movie that functioned just like a comic book.

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SdQbert
6 years ago

 The Hulk’s story arc was the biggest disappointment.  He went from being the strongest avenger, to being lame.  He didn’t fight one person in this movie. I had no problem with him being “the professor“, but I kept waiting and waiting and waiting for the Hulk to show up  and redeem himself from getting his butt kicked the last several films. This was the most disappointing part of the movie franchise. 

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Terry McC
6 years ago

Just for the heck of it I would like to see a DVD extra where other last battle portals open with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. coming through, and as it’s not going to happen, and they are all part of the same company others with characters from Brave, Mulan and why wizard Mickey, Scrooge his crew and others…. ahh… toss in  the Netflix ones too.

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6 years ago

@156 The Hulk has always had a different portrayal in every movie, and that is rooted in Hulk canon. The Hulk has always changed which Hulk he is. I see nothing wrong with Smart Hulk this time around, especially since they don’t really need super strong Hulk in this movie anyway. They’ve got enough muscle in the cast for this movie already.

Sunspear
6 years ago

: yeah, the Hulk’s a shapeshifter. The version usually correlates to his state of mind. In this movie, we get an integrated Hulk, which many psychologists would say is a healthy thing. He already went thru his PTSD in IW and he’s in a better place here.

As far as Thor, what if he stays overweight in Guardians 3: Asgardians of the Galaxy? The new Volstagg, who also became the War Thor for awhile. (Nevermind that Thor is a name, not a title.) He’s fought thru his trauma. Does his new body type mean to some people that he can’t be heroic?

Valiant Comics is addressing this body image issue with a female overweight hero, though I don’t recall the name.

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6 years ago

@159 It is a title now. Maybe it wasn’t always, but it is now. And that is fine.

Sunspear
6 years ago

@160. I still get cognitive dissonance from the shift. Not sure how Marvel convinced readers it’s a title. Beta Ray Bill retained his name, while gaining the powers of Thor. Interesting that they repurposed the name of Bill’s hammer for Thor’s new axe.

But say Thor’s name was Jim Bob. Jane Foster picks up his hammer and becomes the new Jim Bob? It makes sense to have multiple Hulks or Spider-people. But unless they are from alternate universes, as in the Secret Wars (2015) series, multiple versions of Thor in the same world make less sense. He is a distinct person. May as well have Odin, Loki, Sif, Balder, and so on, as titles now. 

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6 years ago

@161

Not sure how Marvel convinced readers it’s a title

 

They were very sneaky and subtle about it. They said “It’s a title now”. Dashed cunning of them, if you ask me.

The League of Jim-Bobs… That actually sounds like a comic I’d buy.

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Pete Nelson
6 years ago

Black Widow’s character was severely mishandled in this movie.  It was not just her sacrifice; it was how hopeless they made her character, before she volunteers to die. She clearly feels useless running point for the Avengers, she’s down & depressed, and then she gets to sacrifice herself.  What if we cut a number of Thor fat jokes, and took a moment to build Nat back up, BEFORE she sacrifices herself?  That could have made her sacrifice much more powerful, and less like a suicide from a character who no longer feels they have a role on the team.

They owe her a damn fine solo movie.  Do the character some justice, please!

Sunspear
6 years ago

@162. Are you saying Marvelheads are easily swayed? I would have been happy with a Mighty Jane, but maybe they thought a female hero wouldn’t sell unless she adopted the boy’s name. The inscription on the hammer says “the power of Thor,” not the name. To me, it was a failure of imagination and a marketing move. And now they’re making her the new Valkyrie.

I also never bought the reason Thor was deemed unworthy. The Nick Fury Watcher whispers something (which was then held back for far too long) and Thor drops his hammer. When we finally find out, it’s “Gorr was right.” Which is massive bullshit. First, Creepy Fury is not a reliable source. Second, Gorr is a maniacal godkiller. He hates and wants to exterminate all gods. That was one of the best Thor storylines in ages, which Thors from three different timelines spent opposing Gorr the entire time. To simply accept Gorr’s statement at face value makes nonsense of the preceding story.

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Kevinrs
6 years ago

On the time travel bit, I took the explanation to be: Changing the past doesn’t change the present, except where the infinity stones are concerned, because they generate the time stream. 
This is complicated by them being “destroyed” by Thanos, unless they weren’t really destroyed, but something more like broken into bits and irrecoverably scattered through the universe so that destroying them didn’t end time.

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6 years ago

@164 Names have become titles, and titles become names, in real life. Most famously Julius Caesar, who made Caesar a title and from which we get Tsar and Czar (titles still in use today), and on the the names to title front Steward, from which we get Stewart and Stuart. So Thor becoming a transferable title is no biggie really. I don’t understand why people get so hung up on that.

Sunspear
6 years ago

@166. As I said, Thor becoming unworthy was handled badly. Losing his name while he’s still alive was weird.

Did anyone but the Russians adopt Caesar? Even then they used Tsarina or Czarina for female rulers. Guess she could have been Thorina as a title.

I actually liked the character of JaneThor, except for recycling the name, and read much of her run. But if they were going to do a gender-bent or reverse gender Thor, I’d rather they just made the actual Thor female, like the time Loki became a woman for awhile.

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6 years ago

@149

It sounds like from your point of view, the future is written and inevitable in the SteveStays timeline. 

if the only thing different is Steve’s presence, then yeah, the future he already knows is pretty inevitable without his intervention.

What makes The Steve Who Stayed so much worse than Ultron’s creator in this example?

They saved the world from Ultron.  They may not be able to save the world from what Steve inadvertently causes.

Again, my whole point is that for all the bad that happened in 1945-2012, it wasn’t really that bad compared to what came after, so why would Steve want to mess with it? Why would he want to risk it?

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6 years ago

@167: there’s the German Kaiser too.

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Hy Davis
6 years ago

Here is my declaration:

 

I love Nebula.

 

Her character arc and emotional journey is the most fully fleshed-out, satisfying, touching. Over the course of four (!) MCU films, goes from antagonist henchman to full-blown Avenger. As slow-cooked, thoughtful a redemption more ham any other character in the MCU. She is a walking sponge of emotional learning, and while perhaps not relatable to most Marbel fans, her story is relatable to abused, emotionally-scarred individuals reaching the ends of their psychological testers. She is an alien, superhuman cyborg and can bounce back from the dark path she was on in ways that those troubled mere mortals can’t. I cheer her on.

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Hy Davis
6 years ago

Ugh, many corrections needed in my previous post, since I typed it in a little smartphone, figure out where they belong if you care.

 

1. * than

2. *Marvel

3. *tethers

Berthulf
6 years ago

@75: Yes! that ST:VI ending was great.

Losing Nat was sad, but I think she had a good death. She certainly wasn’t fridged, as she had to fight Clint for what she saw as the best resolution. I think her death and Gamora’s would be cheapened if they try to reverse them moving on, but we’ll see what happens.

There was definitely a point made of taking the piss out of Thor’s emotional state and resulting fitness, and that never sat well with me. Frigg’s comment about eating a salad was okay, because you can see in her face and hear in her tone that she’s doing the verbal equivalent of mussing up her eldest son’s hair, but the rest of the comments…

There’s no reason that Thanos and the Black order could not replicate a few of their own Pimm Particles. Hell, I’m sure Tony could have worked it out if he had the time to focus on it, but that just wasn’t on the cards. As for shrinking the ships, the Benatar (or whichever one that is) needed to start on the (comparatively) small time machine platform and it had nothing to do with squishing what’s in a ship (as we’ve seen in Ant-Man and the Wasp). Meanwhile Thanos’ ship didn’t have that restriction going in, and I doubt Thanos would care about the damage he caused on the way out.

I don’t have any issues in Cap’s ending even if it is just a bunch of wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey bull-5#!7; My only question is: “Why was it even Cap returning the stones?” Surely Steven Strange would have been able to do that far easier.

Captain Marvel’s disappointing showing here was a no brainer for me. 1: We barely saw her in the trailers, and then only at full-blonde-o-clock on the Nat’s Hair Scale. We don’t see her after that in the trailers, so I’m not surprised, and like the character says, no other planet has an Avengers team to look out for it. 2: Given that they hadn’t even started filming her own film when shooting Endgame, it’s not like they really had anything to work with and the Russo’s would want to be a bit vague with her so as not to tread on other peoples toes. I do like that it took a Power Stone charged punch –to the face- for Thanos to get the upper hand in that brawl though.

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6 years ago

@@@@@ 172

 

it was Cap because he also needed to return Mjolnir.

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6 years ago

@173: I’m sure Strange’s cape is worthy.

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6 years ago

Watched it again Tuesday, and saw something that was also commented elsewhere.  Tony’s face at the moment that Thanos punched Captain Marvel with the power stone.  The realization that they couldn’t get the gauntlet off Thanos, but they could get the stones off the gauntlet.  Or, rather, HE could, because the gauntlet was his creation and compatible with his suit.  Then he looks at Strange, and Strange confirms it.  Tony gets this almost dead look in his eyes realizing that only he can do this, and it will kill him, but there’s no other choice.

All of those emotions running across his face at once…..RDJ was excellent at portraying that.

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Irrevenant
6 years ago

I choose to believe that Steve lived out his life in an alternate timeline with Peggy and only rejoined ours after she died to pass the torch. And in that world he fought Hydra, rescued Bucky etc. 

Endgame handled time travel so inconsistently I think I can get away with making that my head-canon…

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excessivelyperky
6 years ago

I still say it wasn’t fair for Tony to get the whole big funeral thing sendoff, while Natalie gets…oh, so sad, she’s dead, oops too busy to care now. 

I agree with others that when you give a Soul Stone back, you should get the soul that was traded. 

And even in the present time line, Loki could have survived–hello, he’s a Frost Giant dang it! Imagine him floating in space and deciding screw it, humans too stupid to deal with, time to jaunt off to Jotunheim and take *that* crown. 

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6 years ago

The timeline tangle in the above linked imgur pic almost reconciles everything, except that retired Cap would need to arrive before he left.

And anyone saying don’t worry about the details- I wouldn’t, except THE MOVIE made it such a big deal about Not Like Back to the Future. Except it was.

~

I was hoping they would solve the problem like retrieving Mike from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress- go back to just before Thanos destroys them, misdirect and explode and take the Stones away just before the suicide snap. No worries with returning them.

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Bernard Lansiquot
6 years ago

Hulk didn’t have an end fight scene…. he was dug out by ant man then disappeared.

Also…. if the gems are so powerful why couldn’t professor hulk snap her back into existence…. he said he tried…..

 

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Bonz
5 years ago

I would like a timeline where this movie was Never made. The MCU was in a better place before Endgame!

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Johan
5 years ago

[Positive Reasons]…, but… I still feel that the MCU should have ended with Infinity War.

Motivation: everyone, mostly, when asked if they remembered how they felt after Infinity War, will recall the #WTFJH moment. If the MCU ended, there and then, we would have had the perfect Shakespearian ending. 

The same cannot be said for the End Game. It felt rushed to justify the [infinity] loose ends, which I liked having (pre-end-game), to entice my own thoughts and possible outcomes.

An absolute “no-no” for me was the vilification of Thanos.  The creators spent so much thought into herofications of villains and anti-heroes etc, throughout the MCU, which made these films challenging and not boring.

It’s like someone told the Marvel team, “Ok you guys, you had your fun killing all our merchandise, now fix it or else…” -lol

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5 years ago

Now that we FINALLY saw it I get to binge on all of these ;)

It’s funny how much this tracked with my own experience. I will say that I’ve noticed that, on the whole, I’ve enjoyed the standalones more than the big mashup Avengers/Captain America (which are basically Avengers) movies. I’ll take a Black Panther or Ragnarok or Doctor Strange or Homecoming over Infinity War or even Endgame.

Not to say I didn’t enjoy Endgame or watching it all come together – it just definitely did have a ‘kitchen sink’ feel to it.

For me, the high points were:
-Hail Hydra – thanks to Tor I actually got the joke there even though I’m not a comics reader ;)

-PEPPER IN A SUIT!!!

-Yes, it’s fan service, but finally seeing the Avengers Assemble was great. Also really hoping we get to see more of Valkyrie

-Loved seeing the Ancient One again, and kind of interesting to think she was fighting the Chitauri the whole time!

-Scott desparately looking for Casey. Stupid me thought he was looking for Hope/Hank until I realized he was on the wrong part of the alphabet. But that whole scene was really touching (speaking of, kind of sad we didn’t get a Luis scene recapping the whole thing)

-Seeing the various re-enactments/revisits of things from a different perspective was fun, but my favorite was probably Quill being a doofus.

-Every scene Nebua is in. Something about the way she delivers her dilaogue like every single line is of utmost impotrance and requires the most intensity always cracks me up.

What I wasn’t a fan of:
-The Black Widow thing. Even my husband was like…this is not a good look. From a story standpoint, yeah, it made sense – both of us were kind of like HAWKEYE WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOU HAVE A FAMILY! when he wanted to kill himself. But still, come on, how many ‘disposable’ women do we have to throw away? Just blaaaaah. (Plus, just because she doesn’t have a family doesn’t mean she’s less valuable, boviously). It just sucks that the story had to go that way in the first place.

-The Spaceballs timey-wimey plot (I stole that from the Honest Trailer). Like…are the past timelines changed now too? Did Loki actually get away? WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

-Captain Marvel basically being too powerful to be in the movie, until they need her and bring her back in.

-The whole idea of ‘undoing’ the Snap was kind of odd. As my husband pointed out, can the infrastructure now handle the influx of new people after five years? What about people who remarried (ay yi yi, especially if there are still Catholics after all this, that has SERIOUS implications, ha). That said, I was SO worried that as soon as they introduced Morgan Stark-Potts, the whole point would be some big emotional moment where Stark has to sacrifice that version of the timeline and I was going to HATE that.