Welcome back to the Stormlight Archive ongoing reread project! We hope you had a thoroughly fantastic holiday season, and wish you all the very best in the coming year. Now that you’ve had a chance (we hope!) to read Rhythm of War—
L: And Dawnshard, and hopefully the rest of the Cosmere given how Cosmere-connected this book is—
A: we’re almost ready to plunge into the detailed chapter-by-chapter discussion, with spoilers for the whole kit and caboodle. This week, we’re just going to talk about Part One a bit more, and introduce the set-up for future discussion.
L: Welcome back, chickens. Or, if you’re new to the reread, welcome, enjoy your stay, and don’t forget to join in the conversation in the comments below if you’re so inclined!
A: If you were following along, you’ll know that we did a read-along as Part One was released in serialization, beginning in July 2020. Those discussions can all be found here; if you weren’t reading along, you might want to go catch up on those. (Or, you know, you might not want to. It’s up to you.) Additionally, if you scroll all the way down in that link, you’ll find the wonderful (if super high-level) reread of Dawnshard done by Lyndsey, Sam, and Drew. You might wish to catch up on those as well if you missed them.
Having already done fairly in-depth discussions, we aren’t going to go back and reread those again. This week, we’ll launch the reread with a brief review of Part One, and then next week we’ll start with the first set of Interludes.
Part One Recap
Part One opened on a tense day in Hearthstone, where a certain Herdazian general was expected while Lirin tried to behave as if everything was normal. Then everything exploded at once, as a new kind of Fused showed up shortly ahead of Navani’s new flying ship. Also Moash.
L: Moash…
A: Lots of air-fights, Dalinar Bondsmithing, Navani observing, and Hearthstone evacuating.
Meanwhile, Shallan was busy in the old warcamps, attempting to infiltrate the Sons of Honor organization now headed by Ialai Sadeas, and find out what they’re up to. She eventually succeeded and even got a little information from Ialai, including a very secret notebook. Then, just as Adolin arrived with his soldiers to take Ialai into custody, someone went and killed her. Shallan was left with two mysteries to solve: who killed Ialai, and what secrets had she puzzled out about the Ghostbloods?
From there, the entire ensemble assembled in Urithiru, with the obvious exception of Venli. We only got two chapters from her POV in Part One, but she was located at the Fused/singer headquarters in Kholinar, in a new role as Voice for the Fused Leshwi. Venli, a.k.a Last Listener…
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
L: (And also newly Bonded Knight Radiant along with her spren, Timbre)
A: …was secretly collecting people she thought might have the temperament and mentality to dodge out from under Fused domination and establish a new nation of listeners. She didn’t have much of a plan for her project, but with that secret spren bond, staying with the Fused and their war on the humans was not a good option. Through her eyes, we saw the leadership of the Fused in council, and the arrival of a terrifying newly-awakened Fused called Raboniel. She presented a plan to lure Jasnah and Dalinar out of Urithiru, then infiltrate the Tower and subvert its defenses to block the abilities of any remaining Radiants.
Back at Urithiru, Kaladin was relieved of duty as a soldier, and spent the rest of Part One trying to figure out what to do with himself. Three events stand out: Adolin refused to let him sink into deeper depression; Zahel gave him a lot of incomprehensible Cosmere-level info and told him he couldn’t be an ardent; and he prepared a place and means for the people of Hearthstone to integrate into Urithiru. This last included setting up a state-of-the-art infirmary for Lirin, with quarters for the family, and a room for himself as part of it. Ultimately, he stated his intention to return to his surgical training.
Navani continued with her roles as Queen of Urithiru, patron/leader for the engineers and artifabrians, and grandmother to Elhokar’s son Gavinor. With the slower pace of this section, we saw her taking time to grieve the loss of her son, and got some hints as to why he was Lightweaver material. During this time, she also occasionally interacted with a mysterious correspondent via spanreed—someone who deeply disapproved of her fabrial developments involving trapped spren.
Shallan spent most of this time trying to manage her three identities, decipher Ialai’s notes, and figure out what the Ghostbloods were up to. In this last, she was “helped” by another meeting with Mraize. Using his relationship with her brothers as an unspoken threat, and Cosmere knowledge as a promised reward, he instructed her to go to the honorspren stronghold called Lasting Integrity in Shadesmar and find a man called Restares… a leader, maybe the leader, of the Sons of Honor.
As the culmination of Part One, all oblivious to Raboniel’s proposal, the human coalition began making plans. Despite the current near-stalemate, the Fused were gaining new rebirths at a faster rate than the humans were gaining new Radiants, plus the singers were developing into better troops as time went on. If they were to have any hope of winning this conflict, they needed a successful offensive, and soon, to give humans not part of the coalition a reason to join it. In addition, they needed a way to convince more spren to form bonds and create more Radiants. To these ends, two courses of action were settled. First, Dalinar and Jasnah (without even needing a push from the Fused’s agent, a.k.a. King Taravangian) would lead an offensive into Emul in the hopes of crushing out the Fused/singer presence in that area, bringing nearly all of the Makabaki region into the coalition and stabilizing things for the Azish. Second, Adolin and Shallan would lead a small team of Knights Radiant on an envoy mission to the honorspren, seeking to persuade them to withdraw their opposition to increased bonding with humans.
The epigraphs to Part One were pieces of a lecture from Navani to the monarchs on how fabrials work, and how important it was to move forward with sharing information among the coalition. Historically, each nation had their own artifabrians, and while they were willing to share some information, everyone had secrets. In the interests of defending humanity from the Fused, Navani was trying to convince them to share those secrets, but apparently without much luck. As we’ll see in upcoming events, she’s right.
A: This is one of those moments when I consciously admire the storytelling devices used. Like most readers, I’m not a fan of the narrative device where people fail to share information solely because the story won’t work if Character One tells Character Two some key fact. In this case, Sanderson makes the (completely realistic) point that industry secrets are real. No nation quite trust another with stuff like this—and on Roshar, it makes perfect sense that no one trusts the Alethi with their own discoveries. That’s why, as we’ll see farther in, the Alethi don’t know the Thaylen secrets about transferring Stormlight between gemstones… and also why that particular technology is available, if only the right people can be persuaded to share what they know when it’s critically needed.
Reread Units for Rhythm of War
Moving forward, then, here’s the approach we’ll be taking. For those of you who have been following these rereads, not much has changed. For those who are new, this is what to expect. As has become tradition, we’ll open with summary info: POV character(s), date, location, short summary, relevant comments on the choice of Heralds for the chapter icon, and the epigraph. Then we’ll dive into discussion.
Overall Reactions
We added this partway through the Oathbringer reread, and have decided to continue it. We’ll address the main arc here when breaking it out into the various units is too disruptive to the discussion, and then use the other units to talk about the rest.
L: I also sometimes use this section to discuss things that are more relevant to the craft of writing; Sanderson’s use of plot/character arcs, story structure notes, or other similar observations that don’t quite fit anywhere else.
Music, Mechanisms, and Manifestations of Light
Music is a central player in Rhythm of War, so we definitely wanted a unit for that. Before long, music becomes inextricably linked to Navani’s engineering and fabrial design work, so we decided to combine the two in one unit.
L: I’m actually really looking forward to digging more into this, as I’ve been learning a bit about music theory in the last year or so!
A: Along with music, light takes on new meaning in RoW, so we’re including that as well. I’d initially thought it was odd that the Surge of Illumination was described as “the Surge of light, sound, and various waveforms” but now it makes a lot more sense. This is going to be fun!
We’re still working out the title for this one, so if you have suggestions, let us know in the comments.
Spren & Shadesmar
Clearly, this will be the focus unit for all the odd side notes from Adolin & Shallan’s envoy expedition—the things that aren’t part of Overall Reactions, but that catch our attention. It will likely also be used to address spren in general, as well as the glimpses we get into Shadesmar via the Radiants who can peek in.
Relationships & Romances
A: As in the past, this will focus on families, friendships, romances, etc., both good and bad. But mostly good.
L: A general note here that “relationship” doesn’t necessarily imply romantic relationship. This section also encompasses the other types that Alice listed.
Bruised & Broken
You can’t have read Rhythm of War without noticing that mental issues are still a strong theme, along with various interactions that may or may not be abusive. We’ll deal with them here, as best we can.
L: Please note that we are trying our best to be sensitive to all different viewtypes and neurodivergencies, as well as to people who are disabled. If we screw up in this regard, please please let us know, if you have the spoons to do so, and we’ll adjust moving forward.
A: That said, please also realize that we’re only human and are neither medical nor mental-health experts. We’re bound to make mistakes, especially since these are areas in which the terminology is constantly evolving and preferences vary widely. We can only do our best.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
This will mostly focus on the developing powers—and of course any new Ideals—of our Radiants. It may occasionally become useful for other topics, though…
Cosmere Connections
World-hoppers are increasing! Things are rapidly shifting from the infrequent Easter egg to full-blown Cosmere information out in plain view, so this section may be much larger and more frequently used than in the past.
Secret Societies
Well, that’s pretty self-explanatory, right? The Skybreakers will no longer be considered part of this (and haven’t been since Words of Radiance), but the rest of them… Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods, and Seventeenth Shard are all still active. Maybe a new one or two? We’ll see.
TinFoil TheoryCrafting
So. Much. Theory. This will often feed out of Cosmere and Secret Society issues, but there will be crafting. Much.
L: Much crafting. Such tin foil. Wow.
Geography, History, & Cultures
This one may evolve, or devolve, as we go. We’ll likely use this to note proximity of the various storylines as well as what we learn about the human cultures; singer culture will go in its own section. But it will also, and maybe primarily, be used to address the new knowledge of ancient history that we pick up along the way. While it’s never enough for some of us, we do get more tidbits of history about the arrival of humans on Roshar, the Heralds, and the Oathpact.
Singers/Fused
Oh, hey, this one. This is where we’ll talk about the singers, the Fused, their cultures both past and developing, and basically any notes that aren’t part of the Overall Reactions.
Humans
At this point, this unit seems likely to be used mostly to collect comments about humans that show up in chapters dedicated to listener/singer POVs, but… we’ll see what else ends up here.
L: Sometimes we make comments about just… characters in general that we want to talk about that don’t fit anywhere else, too.
A: Absolutely. This will definitely be a good catch-all for character notes—which is definitely necessary for a cast this large!
Flora & Fauna of the Physical Realm
Again, this is self-explanatory, for the most part. IIRC, there’s not a boatload of new information in RoW, but we’ll note it here when it arises.
Arresting Artwork
Oh, the artworks! So much intriguing art, from Navani’s notebook pages (we’ll include the translations) to Shallan’s spren drawings to those gorgeous Herald portraits… We’ll include the artwork as it comes up.
Brilliant Buttresses
This is a new title for the old “Tight Butts and Coconuts” unit, based once again on a line from Lift. This time, it was to Dabbid, on learning that he can speak:
“Say buttress,” she told him. “It’s my favorite word.”
Non sequiturs, humor, general fun and games, that’s the theme for this segment.
Overall Note on Cosmere Spoilers Going Forward
L: This book is way more Cosmere-connected than any of the others have been so far. We’re sympathetic to those who haven’t yet had a chance to read the entirety of Sanderson’s work and are trying to avoid spoilers, but it’s getting harder and harder to discuss things without spoilers. As such, we will give a heads-up on spoilers at the beginning of any spoiler-laden section. So, if we’re discussing stuff about Mistborn in the Cosmere Connections section for a particular week, we’ll mention it at the beginning, so you can skip that section to be on the safe side.
A: And that’s how it will go. Make sense? Join us here next week for the first set of Interludes: Sylphrena, Sja-anat, and Taravangian (assuming we can cover all three in one week).
Add your impressions and speculation in the comments! Have fun, and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others. Feel free to disagree, but do it courteously.
Alice is a wife, a mom, an engineer, a Sanderson beta reader, and a few dozen other things that may or may not be relevant. She would like to pretend that her minor in English Literature is somehow relevant to this blog, but she earned that a long time ago, so… who knows. She originally hails from Montana’s Glacier country, and currently resides in the Pacific Northwest just a bit north of Seattle, Washington. She strongly identifies with Cadsuane, as members of her facebook groups Storm Cellar and The Stormlight Archive can attest.
Lyndsey has been a Sanderson beta reader since Words of Radiance and is a fantasy author herself, as well as being a mom, cosplayer, and rennie. If you like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram. She also messes around on TikTok from time to time. She wants you all to know that by reading this reread, you are now officially one of her “chickens” and she hopes that you’re staying safe and well (both emotionally and physically) through these unprecedented times in which we’re living.
This will be my first time participating in a re-read (though I’ve followed many of them!), so I’m very excited. Looking forward to this, and knowing you are going to be great, Alice and Lyndsey!
This is relevant to the Buttress joke. I know that people complain about Lift and how her use of the phrase “awesomeness” breaks their immersion. That has never been a problem for me. As Brandon has said, this is a work in translation and that makes perfect sense to me.
But I am tired of all the puns. There are so many of them and puns do not translate like this. The mis-jasnah-istic one was completely unforgiveable. They are not funny and they make the series feel cheap and unprofessional.
While we were writing this, we completely blanked out on the topics we avoided or were careful not to emphasize too much during the read-along. So naturally, this morning I started remembering what some of those topics were…
The one that came to mind this morning was the impact of Gavilar’s treatment of Navani in the prologue. At the time, we could feel free to vent our outrage at his denigration of her abilities, and the way he played on her impostor syndrome to keep her from getting involved in his activities. We couldn’t, however, talk about the long-term effect of his behavior on Navani’s self-image, and how very much that will play into the plot of RoW. I’m sure this will come up in future chapters, but right here I wanted to ask two questions.
One: What would Navani have done if she’d been encouraged to pursue her interest and ability in engineering, instead of spending all her time focusing on administrative tasks that exacerbated her feelings of inadequacy? Would she have been a great artifabrian in her own right many years ago? Would that have made her discoveries in RoW more or less likely to happen?
Two: Is it at all possible that Gavilar was deliberately pushing his family away for their own protection, knowing that he was meddling in dangerous business? Of course, we’ll have to wait for the Book Five prologue to find out, but it’s worth asking the question.
So… those are my additional thoughts so far this morning. There may be more.
How about “Rhythms of Roshar” for the music section? (Not original I know, but apt).
Hey, been waiting for this!
A question from Part One that didn’t make it into the preread: what are the odds that both the Ghostbloods and Seventeenth Shard know exactly who Zahel is? He’s one of the few people I can see making even the Ghostbloods nervous.
Walker @2 – Your opinions and tastes are, of course, your own. I’d like to point out, though, that Brandon has a certain amount of experience with the translation of puns and jokes. When his books are being translated to other languages, he encourages the same approach he uses for writing “as translation” : it doesn’t have to translate literally, if the humor doesn’t translate. If the word-play doesn’t work in the other language, it’s replaced with a similar concept that does. If an idiom doesn’t make sense when translated literally, it’s replaced with an idiom that does make sense and carries the same “flavor” and intent. Most of the time, puns and jokes are more about the character than about any attempt at comedy.
Lift is a good example of this (and must give the translators major headaches), because much of the childish humor she uses is meant to give the reader insight into her character. She’s a young teen who is really, really determined to remain ten years old, and as it becomes ever more apparent that her body is not cooperating, she consciously attempts to force her mind to remain immature. So, yeah, the juvenile “humor” can feel out of place and lame to an adult, but we’re not necessarily supposed to find it funny in itself. We’re supposed to understand Lift’s character through it.
Hope that helps…
Carl @5 – That’s a good question. For whatever reason, Brandon hasn’t shown Zahel as doing much of anything besides being a swordmaster and sort-of mentoring Kaladin. No one else seems to know who he is, and there hasn’t been any interaction (on screen) between him and Wit, for example. Is he sufficiently well disguised that no one actually knows he’s there? Or is there something going on that we just don’t get to see yet? Because absolutely, if the Ghostbloods or 17S know who and where he is, they’ve got to be keeping a close eye on him, but we don’t see any evidence of this just yet.
@6 – Wow, I never thought about the books being published in other languages before. Now I’m really curious. Does anyone have any foreign language examples of the English-specific puns that Brandon uses? I’m curious of the choices the translators use when a pun involves a character’s name.
Ooh my first re-read in real time. This could be fun. And helpful as I craft my own tinfoil hat theories.
@2, I don’t mind most of the puns, but at some point (and now I don’t remember where), Shallan makes a pun that involves the SPELLING of words and Adolin doesn’t get it, because, you know, he’s illiterate. Telling a joke that someone else can’t possibly get because of a deficiency in their learning/background is kind of mean, or unempathetic, and that scene made me like Shallan less. I got over it, but I would rather we not have the scene at all.
I’d suggest just a simple “Light & Music” for the title of thesecond section.
Been looking forward to this.
@3) thank You Alice. That scene between between Gavilar and Navani lies heavily on my mind, the heavier the more I read it. It reads, as if copied out of RL discrimination against women scientists. But the world building for Vorin lands states clear, that it is women, who are literate, so men should have no fundament to brag about their scientific exploits and demean women in the process and Navani should have called him an illiterate ape. So – continuity error or something deeper indicating that the cards are far more stacked against women than visible from the outside. My gut feeling says a bit of both: the cards are stacked, but the scene should have played out somewhat differently, a bit more shifted from Earth characters and Earth dialogues. What Do You think?
@10) completely skipped this.
But the scene has its rightful place in the book. Shallan is not a good person, she fights on the side of the good, but that is a slight difference. This mixture of moral negligence and immaturity fits her character at this point of the story. At least I have hopes that she grows after confronting her inner demons for the first time in her life (and successfully at that).
Nice to jump back on the bandwagon! I usually tend to keep my mouth shut in the comments, but have been following these rereads for some years and enjoy them (the articles and the comments) very much. I will be glad to dig in again!
Also, Lyndsey, I’m happy to continue as one of your chickens ;) Only now I cannot stop thinking of all the varieties of possible colours a chicken might have and how that might or more likely might not be relevant in different parts of the Cosmere and what would determine ours if we had feathers.
As for the Music, Mechanisms, and Manifestations of Light, I first read it and thought to myself: “Wow! What a nice alliteration!” And then read on and saw a new one is wanted instead …
Regarding puns, I have very little experience with translating literature (unfortunately! I do hope it will change one day), but I have had some with translating puns and they really can be a pain in the … backside. It does seem to me, too, that the best option is to try and keep the tone and, if possible, the meaning the same, but replace things as much as necessary. Translating everything literally can sometimes be the worst thing to do to a text.
Anyway, thank you, Alice and Lyndsey, for taking us on a ride again!
After reading Chapter 13. I guessed that Kelek is Restares. Kelek started the SoH as a way to work on getting out of Rosharian system [I guessed correctly]. His followers either did not realize the true purpose of misconstrued it to champion the return of the Heralds.
I hope the chapter where the Leshwi discusses that she thinks Windrunners and Honorspren would make ideal servants to the Fused/Singers puts to bed the theory that Leshwi will develop romantic theories for Kaladin and Kaladin for Leshwi.
Wetlander/Alice @3. Even had Gavilar and others encouraged Navani to be an artifabrian and Navani was able to become a successful one (rather than just a patron as Navani viewed it), I do not think she would have come up with the concept of anti-lights and flying devices. The world before the current desolation had no reason to think about Stormlight as any thing other than a source of ordinary light (as opposed to electricity in our current world and oil/candle light in pre-industrial times. Further, researchers would not want to create something that would cancel out the effects of Stormlight. Often, need is the key to invention. As we see later on in RoW, Navani had a reason to come up with a way to counter voidlight and was also encouraged to do so by Raboniel.
Your second question asks whether it was possible that Gavilar was acting as he did in the end to protect them. You than end that thought by saying “we’ll have to wait for the Book Five prologue to find out, but it’s worth asking the question.” Has Brandon confirmed that the prologue for Book 5 will be from Gavilar’s PoV? If not, I hope you are guessing (rather than inadvertently revealing knowledge that is not publicly known)? FWIIW, I agree also think Book 5 PoV’s prologue will be from Gavilar’s PoV; however, this is only a guess for me – I have no inside information.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Moderator/Alice/Lyndsey: what are the rules around commenting on the early released chapters regarding information that is in the rest of the book? Since those were written without the “reread” hindsight on the part of the non-beta readers, there are a lot of issues that I sorta want to ask/comment on, but am concerned about adding spoilers.
RE: Zahel/Vasher
Was Nightblood aware that Zahel/Vasher was also at Urithru at that time? For that matter, was Zahel aware Nightblood was sitting in a cell in the tower?
@3
One: I don’t think Navani will ever be a great artifabrian. I think her talent (or genius) is much more in the realm of theory or realizing connections. Of course, this might be semantic as to whether an artifabrian is the person who makes the devices, designs the devices, or provide the push/inspiration to those who do the other parts.
Two: My impression is that Gavilar was not intentionally pushing his family away, but instead was obsessed with his secret plans to the detriment of any other concerns (like family or running the kingdom). In some ways it is reminiscent of Moash and Odium’s influence on him (or what Odium was trying to do to Dalinar).
And, since all the other prologues have been Gavilar’s assassination, I also agree that it will be the start of Book 5. What I really hope is that it will be from his own perspective.
knuti @13 – It’s really hard to say 100% what’s going on in that scene. Yes, women and ardents are definitely the scientists, engineers, and scholars of the Alethi, but that doesn’t give them all the power. Humans are still humans. Gavilar is much bigger and stronger than Navani, and along with the physical advantage, he has more emotional leverage against her, and he knows it.
As I read it, at least, the problem isn’t one of how women are treated in general, but how Gavilar treats Navani. For all her clever wordsmithing with other people, she falls apart under his anger. Sure, she could call him an illiterate ape, but there are two problems with that. The biggest one is that calling an Alethi man “illiterate” isn’t an insult. They’re supposed to be illiterate, and he’d be more shamed by being literate than illiterate. (And of course, neither of them know what an ape is, but they’d just use a different word.)
But the other thing is that it’s not in her personality to stand up to him that way. As I read it, again, the more progress they made in unifying Alethkar, the more confident Gavilar became, and the more out-of-her-depth Navani felt. Then when problems arose, he was able to use her insecurity against her. It might have started much smaller, but by this time it’s clearly become habitual for him to put her down whenever he gets irritated. He knows her well enough to know that the best way to hurt her is to sneer at her abilities in the one area she cares most about – the one that she never has time to pursue because she’s always busy taking care of his business. She may be angry at him, but it doesn’t seem that she’s able to focus that anger in any meaningful way when she’s actually talking to him.
And of course, he’s lashing out at her partly because of the baseless rumors about her and Dalinar. The very idea of being cuckolded makes him look bad, and he hates being made to look bad. The fact that she can’t deny that she prefers Dalinar but chose Gavilar doesn’t help any, and he’s not interested in the complexities of that decision.
All of which is why I’m really looking forward to being in his head for the fifth prologue. We may get more about what he’s doing with the spheres & all his “uncommon visitors” than about his relationship with Navani, but I’m really looking forward to it for both.
Also, re: Shallan’s humor – as you say, it has it’s rightful place. Like Lift, her various attempts at humor tell us more about her character than about what Sanderson actually thinks is funny. She’s a deeply traumatized young woman and has developed some truly bizarre ways of coping with her world. I think that’s one of the reasons I love her, despite the way she makes me cringe sometimes.
Celebrinnen @14 – It’s always good to see you here! FWIW, we’ll only change that title if we find something we really like better, so … it might stay just as it is.
About the puns, I’ve had a few brief conversations with one of the Spanish translators, and I really don’t envy them! You have to understand the idiom of both languages, plus there are plenty of regional idioms just within (e.g.) American English. (I occasionally freak Lyndsey out with some odd phrase that she’s never heard before, which I though was just… part of talking. It gets funny.) So, yeah, a translator has to work to get the import across, and with both humor and idiom, a literal translation is usually awful.
AndrewHB @15 – Yes, Brandon has confirmed that the Book 5 Prologue will be Gavilar’s POV – or at least, he’s confirmed that he’s planning to do it. I don’t have any insider knowledge on Book 5 yet… not even a hint at the title other than the probable initials.
Roger @16 – There are two ways you could comment on the early chapters, I think. One would be to just make yourself some notes, and then bring things up in the reread as things from Part One become relevant. The other would be to go ahead and comment on the serialization discussion, and just put a spoiler tag at the beginning of your comment. I don’t think you need to white-text anything at this point, as long as you open your comments with a warning. I don’t know that you’ll get much discussion, though…
@13 I think Shallan is a good person, but, as we saw in her arc in this book, deep down she can’t believe that she is after everything that happened in her childhood. She’s convinced that her true self is unlovable and that if people ever find out what she’s done they’ll abandon her. So I think her occasional mean-spirited humor is a way to show on a smaller scale the way she flirts with just embracing being a bad person as a way to escape the conflict. Become Formless, join the Ghostbloods, and she doesn’t have to struggle any more. But Adolin and Wit see the truth.
Yes, I’m ready! I have followed all the re-reads, but never joined, cause english is not my language, but this time i’m ready! I look forward to the Music and Lights section, I’m not sure I understood everything about anti-lights.
Phooey, there are bifs of Part One that I might have liked to re-discuss. But skipping it makes sense, after its quite thorough discussion, if we don’t want this reread to take two years or so. (Will it continue to cover one chapter per week?)
@18: With the possible exception of Wit’s “insults”/”in-sluts” joke in WoK, I can hardly think of any time I didn’t love a Sanderson character’s humor. These jokes and snark are one-third to one-half of why I read Sanderson books (the other reasons being weird settings and, in SA, heroes with disabilities), and if they’re not always what Sanderson thinks is funny, they’re an uncanny match to what I think is funny. Granted, that’s because they’re aimed at other characters; I once read the first Alcatraz book and found that I get less enjoyment from a Sanderson Snarker whose contempt is largely directed at me the reader.
Zahel knows about Szeth and Nightblood:
I love that there is a ROW re-read…however I wish there was a way for people who didn’t read the serialised chapters (because they were waiting to read the entire book when it dropped) to be able to participate in discussions that are now months out of date…I need somewhere to vent about Moash from chapter 8, dammit!
The section should obviously just be called “Illumination” lol
We’re enlightening ourselves about the mechanics of light, sound, and (maybe other) various waveforms in the Cosmere
So hey, something I realized in between the Part One read and now: the Ghostbloods want to learn how to take Stormlight out of Roshar.
What is keeping Stormlight in the Roshar system? Dollars to doughnuts it’s a side effect of whatever’s trapping Odium there. If the Ghostbloods manage to get Stormlight out, what are the odds that the same method works on Voidlight…and can be exploited by Odium to break loose?
And honestly, Taravangian!Odium being free to roam the Cosmere scares me even more than Rayse!Odium.
@Gaz:
Post in the comments there. Many people still have them subscribed. I probably reply to new posts in old threads more than most, because apparently I get up much earlier in the morning than the average Tor commenter (and we’re mostly in the USA).
For the music section, how about “Eyes and Ears”?
Or is that to WoTy?
@6. Since my sense of humor pretty much stopped growing up at about age 14, I am IMMENSELY curious about other languages’ versions of the “Say ‘buttress'” bit.
Looking forward to following along the reread week by week this time. I’ve been reading Stormlight since picking up Way of Kings back in 2010 but only found the reread last summer to help me refresh for RoW. In some ways, this was the hardest Stormlight for me to read as the Kaladin stuff is just so dark at times, but it’s less balanced out by positive things like it is in WoK and WoR. I’m curious about the discussions around the bleaker Kaladin chapters in Parts 3 and 4 and the rock-bottom moment in part 5.
Regarding translation, there’s an interesting appendix in Lord of the Rings where it turns out the whole Merry/Meriadoc conceit is a translation of Merry’s “true” Hobbit name into an Old English variant that retains the pun in their true langauge, ha.
My YT algorithm recently started suggesting the Frozen II soundtrack (which I listen to a lot) but in German. I know enough of a smattering of German to understand where they changed the literal lyrics in order to keep the general rhythm and melody and rhyme scheme, but still managed to get the general idea of the song and its imagery. It’s pretty interesting and is a lot more difficult than simple translation.
LisaMarie – Translating poetry poetically has to be a nightmare. I’ve always loved Dorothy Sayers’s translation of Dante’s Divine Comedy because she retained the poetic feel while creating an eminently readable and accurate translation. (I found out later that she cleaned up the language a lot, though! Not that I object, but I thought it was funny.) But anyway… you have to be really good to translate poetry well!
It’s good to have the re-read back. There was just so much in this book. I think we may also need a special section titled: Moash just everyone can vent all over again. Now I’m adding Mraize to my ” names I say with a sneer”.
I suppose a Gavilar POV could possibly make me think better of him but I doubt it. Each book has made his “feet of clay” more evident.
@28 Jopen
I’m not even done with Part 1 and there’s already been too much depressed Kal…You’re saying I’ve got another 1000 pages of him being like this and I’m nowhere near rock-bottom? We’ve already seen him depressed for two entire books…
Similarly I was prepared for Shallan to be trying to merge her three personas and become completely Shallan – I was not ready for there to be half-formed new persons and EVEN MORE repressed traumatic memories from her childhood that she refuses to remember…we already had WoR for all that. Although she needs another lie to reach the Fourth Ideal, so it makes sense that there are still hidden things…
I love what I’ve read of RoW so far. It’s just that reading about Kal and Shallan’s traumas are getting old. Is it unrealistic to expect improvement in their issues by Book 4? It probably IS realistic for Kal and Shallan to still be struggling, but personally I read epic fantasy for magic systems and worldbuilding, not painfully and frustratingly realistic portrayals of mental illness.
Just curious and wanting to ask Alice and Lyn:
When you’ve struggled with depression and mental illness, and you read Kaladin and Shallan go through their traumas AGAIN in this book, after they’ve gone through multiple book’s worth, what is your reaction? Are you thankful that Sanderson is portraying this so realistically? Are you wishing they would have shown more improvement by now? Do you agree that this should be depicted so unflinchingly, or are you more like “I’ve already endured this in real life, I don’t need to read 4000 pages of a fictional character going through the same thing.”
I’ve never gone through depression or similar, so just wanting to know the perspective of someone who has when reading this.
@32 all that can be said is keep reading the book. Every moment was absolutely fantastic (to me) while reading, lots of sad and funny moments as well.
“Le Ton beau de Marot” by Douglas R. Hofstadter is a whole book with different translations of a single French poem (mainly into English) with a discussion of translation in between. I don’t know if he is still collecting more translations from readers.
@David_Goldfarb:
We’ll get to it, but I have suspicions he doesn’t even make it into the back half of Stormlight.
@goddessimho:
This is Brandon Sanderson. There’s almost certainly more to him than mustache-twirling, even if he is still basically a villain.
@33 I’m not Alice or Lyn, but I’ll answer, as somebody with depression. It depends – on the whole it is very gratifying (especially when he does get his moments of triumph). There are times it gets a little real and I have to put the book down a bit, but I am not sorry it is there.
@32: Kaladin’s depression is as incurable on Roshar as it would be on Earth. Like many of us, he’ll never be rid of it. But it does prove to be treatable, through some incredible developments in this book.
I know that a vast number of readers particularly love this series for its realistic and relatable portrayal of mental illnesses and other disabilities and conditions yet sometimes find them hard to read. I similarly love that feature, but don’t find it hard to read, at least not with Kaladin. His depression mirrors mine and I love it. I can’t get enough, and I didn’t want him to change one bit. I don’t get the same enjoyment from the less-relatable struggles of other characters, but I appreciate those portrayals for their value to some other readers.
Am I losing my mind, or is the shardblade logo on the banner glowing/pulsing like a gif?
Not necessarily an either/or, but does anyone else see it? How long has it been a thing?
@39 – It’s not just you! That’s pretty neat.
@38 – It’s not curable on Earth…yet! Let’s hope one day that we can zap that thing right out of someone’s brain.
Gaz @33
Well, I can only speak for myself directly, but I can also tell you what some others have said.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I can very much relate to Kaladin as he goes through all this, and on the other hand it’s painful to read because of that connection. Sanderson could, of course, choose to write characters who don’t suffer depression or other mental health issues; that’s what most writers do. They’ll give the character some difficult circumstances to deal with, and make them struggle with their feelings of inadequacy, but that’s not the same thing at all. Or they’ll write a character with depression, but make them such negative, nasty person that I kinda wish they’d just go away (see also, Thomas Covenant…). This is one of the few instances I can think of where we have a central character who has a natural tendency to depression, exacerbated by negative circumstances, and he’s still written in such a way that I really like him as a person and hope for something good to happen to him.
On balance, then, I prefer the way Sanderson has handled it. One, the story he’s telling needs “broken people” to be the central characters – not all of them broken in the same way, but all dealing with something – and I appreciate that literary choice. Two, if there’s not a magical healing from depression or DID (and I don’t think there should be), there should also not be an unrealistically easy/sudden “recovery” from it. I’m whiting out the next section, because it has huge ending spoilers, since you said you haven’t finished the book. In RoW specifically, I think the choice to drag the reader through all the agony of Kaladin’s depression, enhanced as it is by both isolation and magical interference, makes sense in the resolution. Partly, the bright moments are all the brighter because of the former darkness. But thematically, the isolation is broken by Dalinar’s intentional Connection of Kaladin to Tien & Teft, and the magical interference is broken by both Bondsmiths’ stepping between Odium’s influence and its target. At the end, Kaladin is freed from the Moash-Odium Connection, he has accepted that he’s not responsible for deaths he couldn’t prevent, and he’s let go of his survivor’s guilt. In that state, he can look at his depression straight on and say “I’m going to take the same treatment I’ve been giving others; I’m going to get help and deal with this.”
As for Shallan, I had initially thought maybe she’d deal with her extra personalities during the timeskip and we’d just get the recap, but that wouldn’t have been great. Now that we know “the other secret” – the one that made her so sure no one could ever love her – I’d say it had to be dealt with on-screen, so I’m glad it happened the way it did. Given that her DID stems from a combination of emotional abuse, fear, trauma, and guilt, I do have some hope that she will be healthier in the future. She’s faced the worst (I hope!) and talked to Adolin & both spren about it, so the need for her “Veil” is no longer there; “Formless” is also unneeded because she no longer needs to run away from everything. I hope this means that in the near future, “Radiant” will help her finally reconcile with her new role and move forward as a more mature woman. We’ll see how that plays out next book!
So yes, I think Sanderson has done a good job with it, and I wouldn’t change it if I could. I think he did a good balance of the magical and the realistic, and the payoff wouldn’t have been as profound without the pain.
That said, I have seen other people say exactly what you said – “I go through this in real life all the time; I don’t need to read about it.” A shocking number of beta readers, including some of long standing, stepped out of the process partway through because it was just too painful. (Part of that was the way the beta process works – you only get part of it at a time, so you can’t just push on through to get to the happy part. You’re stuck in the depressive part for weeks. The lockdowns didn’t help, since that all started right in the middle of the beta-read.)
It was perhaps a risky decision on Sanderson’s part, but I think he made the right choice.
I think this might be my first participation. I mean obviously i’m a WoT guy but t hose were so personal I never went to WoT panels at Cons. But I just read RoW it would be good to reread at not blitz speed and dig deeper.
@34, 37, 38, 41
Thanks for taking the time to share, it’ll help having these perspectives when reading the more depressive parts. Agree – payoff definitely wouldn’t be as profound without the pain. Dalinar at the end of OB is my personal favourite moment in SA to date because of how much pain he was in with how high the stakes were.
And of course, brokenness is essential to the spren bond, so it is a fundamental part of the story – thanks for reminding me!
I hope those beta readers who had to step back managed to read the payoff eventually (if there is a payoff? I’m only at the end of part 1…).
Finally finished the book last night!
Read Part One in two days, then took about a month listening to parts 2&3 on audiobook a chapter at a time, and then blew through Parts 4 and 5 last night! You can’t stop the Sanderlanche.
Looking forward to the discussion.
Is it reread time already? Yay! Looking forward to hopefully participating more regularly this time around! I hadn’t realized the reread was starting so soon, but I *did* finish a reread last week, so it should be relatively fresh. Did I already say yay? Whatever, yay!
Reread? I just finished plowing through all four of the books. ;)
Whited out spoilers.
Zahel is by now pretty obviously Not From Around Here, and by that I don’t mean just far away from Alethkar. That’s made increasingly obvious by all his sayings that make no sense in Alethi because in his native language they contain references to things and concepts no Alethi has ever seen or would understand , which poor Zahel tries to translate literally instead of idiomatically to Alethi.
Perhaps Wit may understand them since he’s also Not From Around here, firmly admitted in this 4th book.
Shallan ‘comes out’ as Formless, which is revealed as not another nascent personality, it’s pure, unfiltered, killed-her-mother, Shallan with repressed memories restored. With that out of the way, Veil goes buh-bye but Radiant is still there.
End spoiler.