Watching the 2017 release of the Justice League was a trial because… well, just look at Superman’s face. It’s like they deepfaked a reel of leftover claymation stock footage. It’s like someone rubbed vaseline on a very specific section of the camera lens, and no amount of buff and shine could save it. It’s like Henry Cavill figured out Clark Kent’s “vibrate so you don’t show up in photographs” trick, but only used it around his mouth during filming. This is all you can look at every time he’s on camera, and it makes the Man of Steel into something akin to a horror movie monster—you’re just waiting for the guise to slip, for the Babadook to come sidling out and scratch over the screen in charcoal.
Which is why they’ve devoted an entire cut of the film to erasing this mistake.
I must admit that when they agreed to create an alternate version that preserved Superman’s face, the four hour runtime was not what I expected. But if you’re going to make an entirely new movie solely to preserve the integrity of Clark’s upper lip, you’ve got to give it a lead up, right?
Buy the Book
Fugitive Telemetry
This is why he doesn’t appear until roughly the two and a half-hour mark—a whole Star Wars prequel worth of movie—as a resurrected zombie. You need the tension, the build, you need to be terrified that this might happen all over again. That perhaps the Brothers Warner lied and this was their plan all along to fool you: Create a hashtag campaign (#ReleaseTheLipCut), harass strangers on the internet over your obsession for years, grouse as you buy your HBO Max subscription, heat up an unsatisfying frozen dinner, mix blue cocktails with names like The Lasso of Blue-th and Blue-ster Gold, all to have your hopes dashed across the Fortress of Solitude.
The wait hasn’t been for nothing, friends. Superman is here, unmarred by computer technicians and harrowing halls of time. He buttons some flannel in his childhood home. He hugs his mom and his fiancée (who has the world’s most obviously placed pregnancy test waiting back in her city loft). He thinks a lot about the conflicting messages given to him by two father figures. Then he dons a suit that will match his super boyfriend, and flies off to talk to said boyfriend’s butler-dad. Then he rushes off at butler-dad’s behest to help his meta-human meta-friends.
He arrives in the nick of time. He smiles. He rips a skull fragment (horn? antler?) from Steppenwolf’s head. He is the Superman we remember, and the one we deserve.
I suppose we could talk about the fact that, in order to get this cut, we are required to learn a lot about some smooth cubes that combine toward the purpose of ending the world. We could probably also talk about how Batman has a dream that this Superman will one day want to kill him because his fiancée will die in a very vague way. We could even talk about how this Lex Luthor really should not have shaved his head because it’s not doing him any favors, and looks almost as uncanny as Clark’s previously CGI’d upper lip—it was in the previous version of the film, but it doesn’t get any better to look at this time around. Or we could talk about the sheer volume of women who had to die in this movie while the only lingering female characters in the film are composed of the team’s Only Woman, three incomprehensible love interests who barely speak, and two moms, one of whom spends most of her time on screen being portrayed by a shape-shifting alien. (Yes, really.)
We should definitely talk about the fact that a side plot to Cyborg’s origin makes it clear that he has the ability to redistribute the entirety of Earth’s wealth, and that is not at all the focus of the story, for some unfathomable reason.
But we will not talk about these things. Instead, we will be grateful for the fact that we have been gifted with a Clark Kent whose face is whole and bright as a Kryptonian sunrise. (Wait… too soon? Maybe too soon on that joke. Sorry, Krypton. Sorry, Jor-El.)
Emmet Asher-Perrin thinks you probably know where you can watch the Snyder Cut, if you so choose. You can bug them on Twitter, and read more of their work here and elsewhere.
This is my favorite review of the Snyder Indulgence so far…….. *falls over laughing*
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Wow. Harsh.
I have only had a chance to watch 2 and a half hours of it so far, but a damn huge improvement over the original. or should I say the rebuilt original
When I heard this version was four hours long, I expected to see a few things:
1. A more logical explanation of how the team went from “We have to keep these planet-destroying boxes out of the bad guy’s hands!” to “Hey, these boxes are really powerful! Maybe they could bring our dead alien friend back to life with them, even though he’s been dead for two years.” They could have searched the Kryptonian ship for potential alien weapons to use against Steppenwolf, only to get a stern admonition from Jor-El’s hologram — “What do you mean, you buried him? Silly Earthlings! If you have a Mother Box, he’s only mostly dead!”
2. A comics-accurate depiction of Kal-El using a handheld mirror to reflect his own heat vision, using it like a laser to shave his infamous mustache, since no earthly blade can cut his hair. Sadly, Snyder went in a different direction.
3. A widescreen version. 4:3? On a streaming service? Seriously?
4. The World’s Greatest Detective should have been able to exonerate Barry’s Dad before the 3-hour mark, or at least get him a new trial. I mean, what are Super Friends for?
5. An ancient alien Green Lantern who doesn’t get killed so easily.
6. A modern Green Lantern (and a Martian Manhunter) who aren’t off polishing their uniforms while Darkseid threatens yet another world.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the 12-hour Snyder Ultimate Cut.
A widescreen version. 4:3? On a streaming service? Seriously?
It was actually shot with IMAX in mind and Snyder decided to keep that intact for the final cut:
“When we were working on Batman v Superman, we shot a ton of the sequences in IMAX…I was obsessed with the science center theaters where they show the 1.43 aspect ratio. IMAX, outside of that, is a bigger version of your TV, but in its gigantic, full-film, 10-story screen, it’s a different experience. And watching BvS and those sequences came on, I was like, This is f*****g crazy! It got me obsessed with the big square.”
This was the most fun review of this monstrosity of a recut yet. I don’t know if I’ll watch the movie or not it’s a 4 HOURS long cliff hanger and I really don’t like Snyder movies. Of all the movies he’s done I’ve only like Legend of the Guardians that cartoon with the owls.
As i said elsewhere, this is Zach and DC: Hard pass. That said, I now have a review to point people at.
THANKS!!!
Unless you’re making some historical epic or experimental arthouse piece, no movie needs to be three or four hours long. A superhero movie so bloated sounds interminable.
You know, for all the flaws of Snyder’s cinematic storytelling, I will say this much: I’m glad the Snyder Cut finally shows Apokolips and Darkseid in all their nightmarish glory.
Their absence in the theatrical cut drove me nuts. I think Jack Kirby would’ve been over the moon to see them in live-action.
And speaking of Darskeid….assuming the New Gods film moves forward, I know Ava DuVernay is under no obligation to have Ray Porter reprise the role of Darkseid. The Snyder Cut is, after all, considered an Eleworlds project for all intents and the Theatrical Cut is considered the canon version of the film by the Studio. DuVernay can thus cast whoever she wants.
But after finally getting to see Porter’s sequences restored, now I’m kinda hoping DuVernay does have Porter reprise the role. No one will ever beat Michael Ironside’s Darkeid for me, but I did like Porter’s performance and I think he deserves a chance to really cut loose as ‘ol Uxas.
Am I the only one who doesn’t see the problem with Superman’s upper lip in the theatrical release of Justice League? There are a few shots where I can see that something is maybe slightly weird about his face, but only occasionally, and certainly not enough to warrant the kind of intense negative reaction other people seem to have. Maybe it’s clearer on the big screen in a movie theater, or on a bigger, higher-quality TV/monitor than I have.
On the other hand, Cyborg’s face in the theatrical cut looks entirely CGI to me, even the part that’s supposed to be the actor’s own face.
I’m undecided whether I want to see this. I hated Batman v Superman intensely and I do not see eye to eye with Snyder’s take on DC or superheroes, and some of what I’m hearing about the Cut suggests I wouldn’t like its dark and grim approach. And it does sound like it’s far more bloated than it needs to be (why have today’s blockbuster filmmakers never learned how to edit?). But other parts sound interesting. I’m particularly curious about the restored Cyborg and Flash portions.
@14 ChristopherLBennett – I never noticed what the deal was with Superman’s upper lip CGI either. I heard jokes about how bad it was, then I watched Justice League and for the life of me couldn’t see what the jokes were about.
My post from earlier today seems to have completely disappeared. Oh well.
One very good thing about this cut is that the roles of people of color have been restored:
” “They literally cut out all the people of color.”
Having watched the 2017 cut earlier this week so I could have a basis of comparison, I’m not being hyperbolic. They literally cut out all the people of color in the theatrical cut. Joe Morton? In JL ‘17 for five seconds. Kiersey Clemmons? She gone. Harry Lennix? Nope. Zheng Kai? Lol, that’s probably the first time you heard his name.”
Ray fisher/Cyborg ZSJL cut
That’s all a bit shocking and damning of Whedon and Geoff Johns (who was an executive muckety-muck at the time). Snyder at least said that Cyborg was the heart of his movie and this version supports that.
It’s a more coherent movie than JL ’17. But still has a myriad of problems. When did the ancient battle against Darksied actually happen? Zeus and Artemis are still around, so it’s before Ares killed his fellow gods. Is Hippolyta much older than we’ve been told? Diana is specifically defined (by Cyborg) as 5000 years old. Which… I dunno, seems like a lot. Guess her pining for Steve Trevor for 70 years isn’t such a big deal then.
The monkey-like Ancient Lantern dies too easily. Weta effects studio thought it’d be cool if Darkseid reached for the power ring as it flew off. But what’s the point of that? Lantern rings seek their next bearer and don’t work for those not chosen (unless the lore has changed).
Darkseid inscribes the Anti-life equation (more like a giant rune) into the battleground on Earth. He’s then almost mortally hacked by an axe and his armies have to flee. Then they forget Earth’s location: the site of a significant defeat? Or just forget that he left the rune on Earth? They seem surprised when Steppenwolf rediscovers it.
The mother box concept should’ve matched Kirby’s original, where they’re basically advanced smartphones. These three are basically Ancient AIs (we’re told billions of years old) that when in sync bring about a Unity, which may not be all that bad a thing. They use one of them to resurrect Clark Kent. So they are more PIs, Plot Intelligences, functioning as whatever the story needs.
The coda scene wasn’t bad of itself. But it sets up an Elseworld, or alternate future, that we’ll likely never see. Unless Flashpoint returns there. And Joker’s reach-around comment was a bit much. Batman allowing him to wear cop badges as trophies on the front of his flak vest also seemed unlikely.
Speaking of Flashpoint, I still have low expectations of that movie. Don’t like this version of Barry Allen much. And Miller smirks too much.
The Martian Manhunter inserted into a domestic scene between Lois and Martha Kent was gratuitous. They made too much of the idea that Superman will break bad if he loses Lois. Then the Martian proceeds to sit out the entire battle against Steppenwolf while the Earth is supposedly in mortal peril. Flying in at Bruce’s lake house after the fighting’s done to announce that he’s here to help is a bit ridiculous.
Lastly, the square format was supposedly done for IMAX, but losing the widescreen lessens the visual impact of a grandiloquent story like this. On home screens, it’s just reminiscent of old cathode-ray tube TVs. Many parts of it looked murky, too. We can now start the “Release the Snyder widescreen cut” campaign.
That’s all a bit shocking and damning of Whedon and Geoff Johns (who was an executive muckety-muck at the time). Snyder at least said that Cyborg was the heart of his movie and this version supports that.
Yeah, I have to concede that Fisher’s beef with WB and with the Theatrical Cut’s depiction of Cyborg is more understandable now.
As for Johns…here’s what’s strange about all this to me. Remember, the 2017 film was at its core an adaptation of Johns’ New 52 Justice League run (specifically his and Jim Lee’s Origin storyline). It was Johns who had put Vic Stone on the New 52 League roster and updated Cyborg’s origin to the Apokoliptic invasion. And even before that, he’d had history with Vic (while writing The Flash and Teen Titans).
So it just seems strange that Johns would undercut Cyborg’s storyline — a storyline adapted from one he’d written himself half a decade earlier — like this. How much of it was out of Johns’ hands (i.e. senior management) and how much was his own clashes with Snyder (which have been alleged).
Still at the 2 1/2 hr mark. I already think it should have been named “Justice League- The Musical”. Better than the 1st version, but that’s a really low bar anyway.
@16/Sunspear: “Weta effects studio thought it’d be cool if Darkseid reached for the power ring as it flew off. But what’s the point of that? Lantern rings seek their next bearer and don’t work for those not chosen (unless the lore has changed).”
Darkseid may have thought he was the natural worthiest candidate to bear the ring. Or he may have assumed that his power as a New God could overcome the restrictions built into the ring by mere Guardians. Darkseid does not consider himself bound by others’ rules. He considers others bound by his rules.
“Darkseid inscribes the Anti-life equation (more like a giant rune) into the battleground on Earth.”
Okay, that sounds iffy. Darkseid’s already found the Anti-Life Equation? Then what’s his goal? And why doesn’t he already rule the universe?
“The mother box concept should’ve matched Kirby’s original, where they’re basically advanced smartphones.”
No, I’m pretty sure Mother Boxes have always been defined as sentient, living computers with the ability to tap into the Source and achieve miraculous things. They’re called that because they’re intelligences that feel doting maternal love for the beings they take care of, embodying Kirby’s ideal of motherhood. https://www.looper.com/360959/dcs-mother-boxes-fully-explained/
“Then the Martian proceeds to sit out the entire battle against Steppenwolf while the Earth is supposedly in mortal peril. Flying in at Bruce’s lake house after the fighting’s done to announce that he’s here to help is a bit ridiculous.”
Reminds me of Man of Steel, where Snyder set things up so that Superman had to be on the literal opposite side of the planet while Metropolis was falling to pieces for 97 hours straight, then showed up above the ruins to save exactly one person (Lois), whereupon survivor Jenny, standing in the middle of the vast smoking crater, said “He saved us!” for no reason that makes a shred of sense within the narrative.
“Then the Martian proceeds to sit out the entire battle against Steppenwolf while the Earth is supposedly in mortal peril. Flying in at Bruce’s lake house after the fighting’s done to announce that he’s here to help is a bit ridiculous.”
Reminds me of Man of Steel, where Snyder set things up so that Superman had to be on the literal opposite side of the planet while Metropolis was falling to pieces for 97 hours straight, then showed up above the ruins to save exactly one person (Lois), whereupon survivor Jenny, standing in the middle of the vast smoking crater, said “He saved us!” for no reason that makes a shred of sense within the narrative.
That plot hole is partly because the cameo was, as I understand it, originally supposed to be John Stewart rather than J’onn. I assume it would’ve set up the GLC film (which was still in development).
But WB had him remove it and J’onn was the compromise.
But had Stewart appeared, I assume it would’ve taken the same route the Bruce Timm animated show took with John in its pilot episode: Having been off-world for years and only returning in time for the crisis (or late in this case).
As much as I love J’onn, I have to agree putting him in this film was a mistake because it begs the question of what the hell he was doing during the crisis.
@CLB: Hmm. I forgot about Father Boxes, made as Apokoliptian dark reflections of the maternal ones.:
“Whereas a Mother Box is said to be “good,” loving, caring, and are attributed a “maternal” energy in comic lore, a Father Box is said to have a “pure evil” persona and is crafted to have “male programming.”
That seems a bit simplistic, but then, so are concepts of good and evil. Maybe these three in the movie could’ve been differentiated a bit more: a Mother box, a Father box, and a Goldilocks one. They could’ve designated the Goldy as the one that resurrected Superman. And also tore his shirt off…
Which reminds me of the extensive slo-mo focus on Barry Allen’s weiner. No, I’m not going to explain that one…
This movie alternates between coming into focus, then becoming muddled again.
It seems appropriate that we see the broken Justice League sign in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, but we never see it intact.
Some of it was ok. I enjoyed the extended Amazon scenes. The Victor/Cyborg scenes helped explain the movie plot, somewhat. All the characters’ long slow walks here and there that were so cinematic were also time consuming and boring. But, I liked the dystopian/steampunk looking bit at the end, or maybe after 4 + hours (watched over two nights) I was just glad to get to the end.
@Mr Magic: the arrival of a Lantern from off-world, any GL, at the end would’ve made much more sense, though it still would’ve led to asking what took them so long to recognize a major crisis. If an incursion by Steppenwolf and imminent crossing over by boom tube of DeSaad, Granny Goodness, and Darkseid wasn’t enough for a high alert, then what is?
If they weren’t allowed to use Stewart, they could’ve had a temp fill-in. “Hi. You’re regular Lantern is tied up elsewhere. I will be your guardian today.” Could’ve been any design, any species; a one-off casting and done.
“A widescreen version. 4:3?”
I thought it was nice to have a new 4:3 film. We don’t get too many new films in that aspect ratio anymore.
” On a streaming service? Seriously?”
HBO Max actually has a number of 4:3 films on its streaming service. A lot of them are pretty good films.
The arrival of a Lantern from off-world, any GL, at the end would’ve made much more sense, though it still would’ve led to asking what took them so long to recognize a major crisis. If an incursion by Steppenwolf and imminent crossing over by boom tube of DeSaad, Granny Goodness, and Darkseid wasn’t enough for a high alert, then what is?
Right, or why they hadn’t intervened during Zod’s attempted conquest in Man of Steel — or even earlier.
I mean, we know Zod was gathering Kryptonian survivors before coming to Earth. Knowing Zod, he almost certainty carved a path of destruction and carnage throughout the cosmos to preserve those last remnants of Kryptonian civilization at any cost. That alone should’ve gotten Oa’s full attention.
(And speaking of Man of Steel, where the f**k was Diana during Zod’s attack? If Zod had succeeded with his terraforming, then you know, the Amazons would have been affected and likely wiped out, too)
It’s the old, old problem of operating in a shared universe and having to explain why so and so doesn’t show up to solve such and such. But with the GLC and Darkseid, it’s possible they could have used the basic explanation that Scott Beaty devised to answer the old question of why the Guardians of the Universe hadn’t moved against Apokolips despite the existential threat Darkseid poses
If they weren’t allowed to use Stewart, they could’ve had a temp fill-in. “Hi. You’re regular Lantern is tied up elsewhere. I will be your guardian today.” Could’ve been any design, any species; a one-off casting and done.
I would’ve loved for it to be Tomar-Re, because that would’ve opened up some interesting potential drama.
In the comics, Tomar was the GL for Krypton’s Sector and tried to save Krypton, but arrived too late by mere seconds. His failure haunted him for the remainder of his career and life. So it woyukd’ve been interesting to see him interact Clark and show that guilt.
… the snider cut.
I’ll get my coat.
And since I forgot back during @13, similarly to Ray Porter’s Darkseid, I’m kinda hoping Ava DuVernay keeps Peter Guinness as DeSaad if the character shows up in New Gods.
With DeSaad’s sequences also restored, I think Guinness was good casting for the role. He nailed DeSaddi’s oily smugness and cruelty and, like Porter, I’ve love to see him get the chance to really cut loose.
Watched this movie right now, it took 2 sittings with bathroom breaks to do it.
I think it’s an interesting take on how two directors try to make the same story. I understand why Joss Whedon’s version had to be shorter (4 hours is way too long), but his intent on focusing on the Russian family, the joke takes (including infamous Barry falling in Diana’s boobs and Arthur talking about how hot Diana is while holding the lasso of truth) and the fact that he cut so much of Cyborg and the Atom’s storylines kind of speak very badly of him. Ray Fisher’s complaints make much more sense now. To be yelled at, suffer that kind of abuse, and then see 90% of your scenes cut short to give space to the Russian family storyline, wow, I don’t have words.
Snyder movie makes more sense and the villain also gets more development, if not that much. Steppenwolf wants to compensate for a mistake in the past, he has to take 10,000 worlds for Darkseid and while doing that on Earth he discovers the anti-life equation is there. From what I understand, Darkseid didn’t know the anti-life equation was on Earth, and Desaad was kind of skeptical of Steppenwolf’s account at first. But they kind of act like it’s a confirmed fact later. Steppenwolf said he had things under control and such, but I think Darkseid would prioritize this planet with the anti-life equation much more.
Anyway, something I liked much more in this movie is how much of a team up it is, especially the last fight, in which everyone plays a part. The theatrical release’s final battle was solved in such an anticlimatic way that it was the thing I hated about it the most. In that movie, Superman basically solves everything by himself and the parademons turn on Steppenwolf because he shows fear, so all the other Justice League members seem superfluous. In this movie, everyone is necessary, especially Cyborg and the Flash, who can do stuff that Superman can’t.
It feels like the movie could be on a more palatable 3:30 hour duration if unnecessary slow motion was taken off from many scenes, but I don’t think Snyder can make a movie without that slow motion anymore, even if it doesn’t actually add anything to the scene. I know why Barry Allen’s scenes are in slow motion while he’s using his powers, but why are so many others, like Lois Lane drinking coffee?
And for those not liking Snyder’s pessimism in his other movies: all the way before the prologue, the movie is kind of upbeat. Tragedy strikes, people die, but they’re mourned, and not completely ignored. The fights with Steppenwolf mostly happen in empty places, and the main characters show worry about evacuating hostages when they exist, with half the team fighting and the other taking care of hostages.
Up until the epilogue, the movie kind of ends in an upbeat note. It’s the epilogue, showing another Batman dream of future Earth after Darkseid’s conquer and with Evil Superman that is dark, with lots of profane language and that kind of doesn’t go anywhere, especially now that this storyline is not going forward. One wonders why this was added, aong with J’on Jonzz. He doesn’t do anything at all, besides talk with Lois Lane as Martha Kent. The team could’ve used his help in any of the previous fights. I almost expected Batman to yell at him “Dude, if you knew that much why didn’t you help us when we needed?”.
So, take out the unnecessary slow motion, the Martian Manhunter and the dream epilogue, and this could’ve actually been shown in cinemas. It would be a Return of the KIng-level duration (200 minutes), but it would be much more coherent. And with humor! That doesn’t involve people falling on Wonder Woman’s boobs!
@5: “It was actually shot with IMAX in mind and Snyder decided to keep that intact for the final cut”
Right, but he didn’t use IMAX cameras, as pointed out in that very article. You know what you get when you take a film meant for a standard theater screen and blow it up ten stories high? You get a film that looks like garbage. Like a photograph that’s 800 x 600 pixels stretched out over a 4K monitor.
Snyder movie makes more sense and the villain also gets more development, if not that much. Steppenwolf wants to compensate for a mistake in the past, he has to take 10,000 worlds for Darkseid and while doing that on Earth he discovers the anti-life equation is there. From what I understand, Darkseid didn’t know the anti-life equation was on Earth, and Desaad was kind of skeptical of Steppenwolf’s account at first. But they kind of act like it’s a confirmed fact later. Steppenwolf said he had things under control and such, but I think Darkseid would prioritize this planet with the anti-life equation much more.
Yeah, just as with Ray Fisher, Ciaran Hinds has been vindicated. He didn’t get screwed over anywhere near as badly as Fisher, but I completely understand why he disowned the Theatrical Cut now.
Steppenwolf’s still an Apokoliptic enforcer, yeah, but at least he has depth now. I liked how what was only implied before (Apokoliptic politics) is now explicit.
And I may be in the minority here, but I loved the H. R. Geiger-esque Apokoliptic armor — and not just because it keeps continuity with the holographic cameo in Batman V. Superman.
It fits with the fits the design aesthetic of the Mother Boxes The quasi-sentience of the armor and how the plates would change based on the situation and Steppenwolf’s emotions also helped sell the alien nature of the Fourth World and its technology.
@31: Yeah, but since it won’t be screening on an IMAX screen, does it matter?
Honestly, I’d like to see more directors exploring the 4:3 aspect ration again. Loved it when Wes Anderson did it. Loved it when Kelly Reichardt did it. Loved it here.
I’m also curious to know what other people think of the new cut’s score.
Personally, I’m delighted that Tom Holkenobrg returned (or technically re-composed his original score from scratch during the pandemic).
I did not care for the Theatrical Cut’s score. At all. Not only was it bland and unmemorable, but it was tonally inconsistent with the style Hans Zimmer and Holkenborg had established in the earlier films.
In particular, I hated how Danny Elfman, apart from Diana’s leitmotif, abandoned Batman and Clark’s previously established themes (and replaced them with both his own 1989 Batman theme and the Williams Superman theme).
So I’m very happy Holkenborg brought back Zimmer’s Man of Steel theme (or in this case, at least the secondary “Flight” leitmotif).
And I love Holkenborg’s new Darkseid leitmotif. It’s appropriately malevolent and ominous as befits the Dread Lord of Apokolips (if anything, it feels reminiscent of Shirley Walker’s Darkseid theme form the DCAU).
@33/Kait: “Yeah, but since it won’t be screening on an IMAX screen, does it matter?”
As far as image resolution goes, no. But aspect ratio affects shot composition and design too. If a film was composed and shot with 4:3 in mind, then cutting off the top and bottom to make it widescreen would be just as bad as pan-and-scanning a widescreen movie to fit an old 4:3 TV.
I’m not a fan of Snyder’s storytelling, but the one thing he’s definitely good at is creating visually striking images. So I think those images should be shown within the frame he designed them for.
@37/CLB
I was thinking about that as it related to Babylon 5, which composed for 4:3 but shot in widescreen to “future-proof” it. Except for the effects, darn it.
But it is soooo slow-paced… no wonder it takes 4 hours. I still don’t understand why Lois is a red-head and Superman has to be in black.. maybe I’m old but this version is a bit boring to me.
@39/lgwbailey: The very first (and third) screen Lois Lane, Noel Neill, was a redhead. For that matter, Jimmy Olsen is a redhead in the comics and has only once been a redhead in live action (also the very first, Tommy Bond), yet nobody ever seems to complain about that.
Superman’s black costume upon resurrection is a reference to his post-resurrrection attire in the “Death of Superman” arc in the comics in the 1990s. Just be glad they didn’t give him a mullet as well.
Superman’s black costume upon resurrection is a reference to his post-resurrrection attire in the “Death of Superman” arc in the comics in the 1990s. Just be glad they didn’t give him a mullet as well.
Yeah, Snyder considered doing the mullet, but WB (rightfully) shot him down on this one.
But only people who’re familiar with 1990s-era Supes will get the significance of the suit. In-story, it does seem a weird choice (which is why WB had Snyder film the traditional red-and-blue suit, but Snyder did so in a way that it oculd be tweaked to black and silver in Post if minds changed).
That said, it’s worth noting the Black Costume did (kinda) previously appear in Man of Steel (during Clark and Zod’s first scene together in the ‘Death of Earth’ simulation).
@32. Mr Magic: Steppie’s armor made me think of the Shrike in Dan Simmons’ Hyperion books.
@33. Kait: haven’t watched First Cow yet, but Reichardt had a specific purpose in choosing that aspect ratio: “the tighter field of vision subverted the expanses of classic Westerns to reflect the point of view of the settlers themselves, who couldn’t see past their own personal horizons.”
first-cow-movie-review
When Snyder does it, it’s pretentious: ““Am I a provocateur?” Snyder asked out loud. “A little bit.”
“The film wasn’t actually shot with IMAX cameras, nor was it originally framed for the boxy aspect ratio” and “Snyder and his director of photography, Fabian Wagner (Game of Thrones, Overlord), originally framed Justice League in a 1.85:1 aspect ratio.”
It almost sounds simpleminded. Sure there’s more vertical information in camera. That’s why the monitors have a horizontal rectangle to help frame the shot. Why not add the extra information on the sides also. Then pull back and add that new information too, ad infinitum. Get the crew in there too. And the scenery outside the sets as well…
4-3-square-box-look-on-tv
Since it isn’t and won’t be shown on IMAX (which, by the way, is capable of displaying widescreen aspect ratios; I saw Snyder’s 300 in IMAX wide format and it served the action well) it’s just “artistic” self-wanking. Claiming he added information vertically, while subtracting information horizontally, just to make it look more what… archaic? He should’ve gone whole hog on it then and done comics panels the way Ang Lee did for his Hulk.
Ironically, the best viewing experience is not on home TVs, which are mostly all wide format, but on mobile devices that automatically fit the picture to the screen.
At this point it seems only fair to say that in none of my repeat viewings of JUSTICE LEAGUE (the one that actually got into cinemas) has Mr Cavill’s moustache erasure really caught my attention.
That is all.
Just reading that Snyder thought he was making a superhero art film. The man is burning thru my good will. Sure, this version is better than Whedon’s, but Holy First Cow does he have a giant vertical ego. “Superheroes are more vertical.” As opposed to most people in most films being mostly vertical standing on their feet?
I know what this is. It’s all those internet videos being shot on phones in vertical format. Apparently all those people never figured out they could tip the phone over and get a wide shot. Snyder isn’t an auteur or avant garde; he’s just following amateurs.
I think I figured it out. Release the widescreen format. I’ll tip my TV over; verticality achieved. Then I’ll watch it lying down horizontally.
@42: “It almost sounds simpleminded. Sure there’s more vertical information in camera. That’s why the monitors have a horizontal rectangle to help frame the shot. Why not add the extra information on the sides also. Then pull back and add that new information too, ad infinitum.”
The article seems to indicate that they shot the film in 35mm. The technical info on imdb says the same thing (apart from one scene in 8K, which I assume is the flashforward in the epilogue). That’s why there was extra info on the top an bottom, because of the way standard 35mm motion picture film captures a full frame image. There isn’t any extra information on the sides to add, only on the top and bottom.
“Claiming he added information vertically, while subtracting information horizontally,”
He hasn’t cut anything off the sides, at least not in the shots I’ve compared. Just added back the top and bottom of the full frame captured on 35mm film.
“Ironically, the best viewing experience is not on home TVs, which are mostly all wide format, but on mobile devices that automatically fit the picture to the screen.”
Why is a widescreen tv a bad place to watch this? What’s wrong with having bit of pillarboxing? It’s there when I watch older films. Never bothers me there, doesn’t bother me here.
When I went through and compared some shots between the two versions, it seemed to me that the 4:3 compositions generally looked better than the 16:9 compositions in the theatrical release. Seems like Snyder made a good choice.
This film has the wrong title. It should be called Justice League and the Fantabulous Vindication of Zack Snyder. I mean, WB spent so much money making the theatrical JL “appealing” and what did they get for it? An underperformer. But the long version by the director the cool kids like to make fun of has it totally beat in terms of critical and audience reception. As a long-time Snyder fan I am completely satisfied. Even if this is the end of the story he started, it’s still been amazing.
@45. Kait: Yes, there’s extra visual information above and below the original frame. But that’s not what Snyder did. That would’ve been an open matte format which is usually preferable, but still rectangular.
There are plenty of side by side examples of open matte available. They are almost always better. Here’s an example from Blade Runner 2049. The frame reveals more and the composition is better balanced:
Blade Runner 2049
In the opposite direction, a film like The Lighthouse uses a nearly square format and still manages to evoke the verticality of the titular setting. It’s also in black and white to evoke the starkness of that same setting. Hearing that there’s a black and white Snyder’s JL cut on the way further reinforces the impression that he actually sees himself as an art film auteur.
Here’s another example of how scale and framing was done by Spielberg on the original Jurassic Park. Verticality and size is conveyed much more expertly than Snyder manages:
Jurassic Park
The original framing of 1.85:1 (how it was shot) would’ve worked fine in the hands of a more adept filmmaker.
We may hear that his next film will be round, because “You know, man, eyes are round.” Then someone will explain that people usually have two eyes and the campaign for the Binocular ™ version will begin.
I thought we were a couple of decades past the 4:3 aspect ratio? Next thing you know, movies will be black and white again. And then eventually…silent movies, complete with an organist in the theater.
@48/Austin: “I thought we were a couple of decades past the 4:3 aspect ratio?”
It’s not like one ratio is intrinsically superior to another. And trends have a way of swinging back and forth.
The reason movies switched from 4:3 to widescreen in the first place was to compete with television — they wanted to offer audiences something they couldn’t get at home. But then TV became widescreen, so IMAX tried to compete with it by getting taller again, on the theory that it would be more immersive on a really large screen. And thus 4:3 returned, just “bigger” 4:3. Theoretically.
“Next thing you know, movies will be black and white again. And then eventually…silent movies, complete with an organist in the theater.”
I would not object to either of these developments.
I mean, WB spent so much money making the theatrical JL “appealing” and what did they get for it? An underperformer.
You know, one factor in that fiasco that doesn’t get touched on enough is the AT&T merger with Time Warner.
It was first announced in the Fall 2016 and finalized by 2018. So we know it was underway during production on the film and there have been plenty of allegations about how the financial and corporate politics repercussions influenced some of the Executive decisions (like keeping the original release date rather than rescheduling for 2018).
If the Merger had not been a factor, you can’t help wondering what might have happened and what the DCEU would look like now.
@48- Hey, they shot The Lighthouse in black and white, and at 1:19:1 of all things
@51: I’m trying to visualize what a 3-D aspect ratio like “1:19:1” would be, but I presume you mean “1.19:1”.
@47: The compositions in the film looked good to me, better than in the theatrical release. Especially in the action sequences, which were better than most of what we see in this genre.
If the change in aspect ratio works well, as it does here, does it matter whether or not it was his intent during filming? Lots of things change in post, no biggie. If it works, it works.
@52: Now I’m thinking about hologram aspect ratios. 1:19:1 would be, what, wide but not deep.
Open_matte
@Kait: Not sure if you’re just sliding past what I’ve been saying, or if you’ve looked at the Blade Runner example. A choice of square because that’s what the first giant IMAX screens in museums used is a personal choice. That’s it. Not the optimal choice, just the most excessive one. Most IMAX screens these days have a widescreen format.
There are specific scenes that felt a bit claustrophobic, like during Superman’s resurrection, where Cyborg is off-center looking on, but nothing else in frame with him. I wanted to see beyond the frame to left or right. It felt like something was missing.
I guess it’s great that it works for some people. For me, something’s been lost here along with something gained. I don’t think anyone expected this to be an issue when they were clamoring for the Snyder Cut. The clamor would’ve died down considerably if he’d disclosed what he was really doing. That wasn’t evident till the final trailer, just days before the re-release.
@52- Whoops! You are correct, silly mistake on my part.
@48. Hey, it was just 10 years ago that a silent black-and-white movie won the Best Picture Oscar, so ya never know. The past will always be a novelty in one form or another.
@57 – I’ve never seen it, but I’m assuming there was a musical score. I mean, nobody has made a silent movie with live music….have they?
Sure there was. Despite the term, silent movies were almost never completely silent. There was always musical accompaniment.
@55: Sorry it felt off to you! I run into that with other films sometimes, particularly with editing, which can throw me out of an otherwise good film, so I can feel your pain!
Thanks for sharing the comparisons, especially that Blade Runner 2049 one.
@59/RegularRobot: I believe Austin was asking about modern revivals of the silent-film form like The Artist. I doubt you’d find many qualified silent-film accompanists today, or theaters willing to pay them to perform.
And yes, to Austin’s question, The Artist had a musical soundtrack composed by Ludovic Bource. And there are two scenes in the film that do have sound.
@59- I believe that RegularRobot @57 meant recently. Certainly I don’t believe there’s been a wide release recently of a silent movie scored for accompaniment by an organist (said release would be limited by the number of movie houses that have both organ and organist on hand) but I have seen venues holding, for example, screenings of Metropolis with organist accompaniment, and I’ve attended a couple of live radio-play style performances with organists and foley artists plying their trades in real time.
Whoops- the above RegularRobot @@@@@ 59 should have read Austin @@@@@ 58.
It just kills me after watching the Snyder version of the Superman/Steppenwolf fight that someone at WB saw that and decided that instead of using it, they would do a cheap, cheesy reshoot that the scene look ludicrous despite using the same basic elements. This must surely be the first time a studio has spent so much money to make a film look worse.
If I had any doubts that I was not the target demographic for this, they were cleared up by the shirt-sniffing scene. I only got a quarter of the way through the movie, then had to go watch a couple of episodes of Umbrella Academy to shake me out of the gloomy stupor.
It just kills me after watching the Snyder version of the Superman/Steppenwolf fight that someone at WB saw that and decided that instead of using it, they would do a cheap, cheesy reshoot that the scene look ludicrous despite using the same basic elements. This must surely be the first time a studio has spent so much money to make a film look worse.
Yeah, to quote Superman in that fight, “Not. Impressed.”
Great review of this film. Is it better than the Whedon cut? Sure, it corrects a ton of the mistakes made in the theatrical release. There’s an actual story with an actual understandable plot. Cyborg gets a real arc (one that should have been its own separate film). Flash is slightly less annoying here and had an interesting father/son relationship. There’s enough material for 3 full length films in fact, and it’s a shame DC pushed for this instead of working on those first and setting this one up.
Beyond that? It makes all new mistakes to replace the old ones.
Long, dull shots of people walking in slow mo. A color palette best described as “gray is the new black.” Musical score that absolutely overwhelms the scenes and detracts from the emotion of a moment by demanding we FEEL THINGS instead of subtly propping it up. Unnecessary scenes that serve no purpose and accomplish nothing of any note. A bloody and violent take that comes across as “The Watchmen” without any of the self-reflection of the original graphic novel. An ending, and another ending, and another ending, and ANOTHER ending, and another dream sequence of “stuff that doesn’t matter and probably won’t happen, but we wanted to get Ledo’s Joker in there somehow.” And all slapped into a 4:3 screen ratio that made no sense at all and served no purpose.
Snyder is mythologizing the super hero here. And this could have been the Godfather of super hero films. But he narrows our view instead of widens it. He darkens our view instead of brightens it. He slams emotional beats down on us instead of letting them wash over us. He ramps everything up to 11, including the endless use of slow-motion effects. This is all Snyder, and I guess… yep, I really hate Snyder as a director.
The studio had the right idea – a shorter film is better – while focusing on all the wrong notes to get that accomplished. Snyder had the right idea – let’s give super hero mythology more room to breath – while focusing on all the wrong ways to get that accomplished. Both versions are tragically flawed. That this improves on the cinematic release is only because of how incredibly awful the original cut was, not that Snyder vision was all that much better. HBO allowed him to indulge in a vanity project, and that’s what we got: Snyder’s vanity, and a whole lot of Nietzschean motiffs that failed to interrogate the material presented.
So many decisions here are wrong. Yes, Superman’s black costume is accurate to a particular comic arc. It doesn’t work HERE, though. You know what would have worked, given how muddy and dark Snyder’s version of this picture was? Superman’s bright red and blue costume. The glorious return of color, of hope, to a world dimmed by the coming crisis. Snyder has given multiple reasons for the 4:3 aspect ratio, yet as noted many people feel it somehow limits our view instead of expands it. We’re used to the wide screen ratio now. You know what WOULD have worked? When Superman returned, expand to widescreen a la the addition of color in Wizard of Oz. The world is now right and our savior is reborn. Simple tricks that reinforce his attempt at creating mythology, not just “another superhero film.”
This could have been a Coppola masterpiece. Instead, it’s an art student’s attempt at copying the masters. And its depressingly dark and devoid of the joy of comic book heroes. Even Diana is killing people indiscriminately, then telling a little girl “you can be anything you want to be.” A mass murderer apparently. Smile, wave, move on, don’t interrogate this moment, just squee that Diana blew up a guy she could have easily stopped given her powers. The few comedic moments feel entirely out of place given how somber and brooding everything is. And boy, does everyone brood. Almost no one was likeable given all the brooding.
I weep for DC if the Snyder fans get their way and they bring him back. This dystopia of thoughtlessly cruel heroism and darkness is unappealing, and all I could think of was The Boys when it was over, but if The Boys did not deconstruct the very tropes it leans into. Snyder does not understand what it means to balance darkness with light, as Burton did so well in the 90’s Batman movies. As Wonder Woman did so well. As, yes, Marvel does so well.
This vision of the DC universe is depressing. I’m going to have to go watch Ant-man to cleanse my soul. A good, funny story about a father loving his daughter and making it work after divorce.
I watched it. I was singularly unimpressed. Snyder ramped his own schtick up to 11, and it’s a long slog through an unlikable world. Was it better than the original? Sure. And then it made it’s own mistakes that detracted from what it fixed. From the dark color palette, the annoyingly loud music demanding we FEEL THINGS, the endless slow motion, the constant insertion of back story info dump scenes, the misuse of secondary characters (especially women), and the inane attempt at “artistry” by using a 4:3 ratio that added zip and doo dah to the film, it came across as an art major’s attempt at making the Godfather of super hero movies. It’s “The Boys” but without a single interrogation of the tropes its leaning into. This could have been so much better than it was, and I could see the glimmers of that beneath the brooding, depressing world he constructed.
Also, I won’t forgive him for making Diana a bloody killer who blows up terrorists with her magic bracelets, then tells a little girl with a smile “you can be anything you want to be.” Completely, totally unnecessary. Just Snyder’s way of telling us “everyone is evil, even the good people.” A modern libertarian’s dim view of humanity.
@67. I find the idea that Snyder’s films have no color to be baffling. Just watching ZSJL, I saw green, blue, red, orange, purple, yellow, black, white, gray, various skintones, gold, silver and bronze.
As to the notion that a shorter film is always better, the history of cinema is full of counter-examples, but the most relevant would be the theatrical Justice League.
@69/Almuric: “I find the idea that Snyder’s films have no color to be baffling.”
And yet Snyder is literally planning to release a black-and-white cut of Justice League…
@14,
I’m particularly curious about the restored Cyborg and Flash portions.
The latter has now definitely made me interested in Miller’s Flash film next year.
Before, I’d been kinda curious about it between Affleck’s sendoff and Keaton playing the Flashpoint Batman.
But I wasn’t really interested in the film for a variety of reasons: My enjoyment of The CW show, being sick of how overused Flashpoint has become in the comics and multimedia, and really disliking Miller’s Flash in the Theatrical Cut.
However, after seeing the Snyder Cut’s restored Flash sequences (and in particular, Barry’s restored and now-signature role in the climax)?
I’m definitely willing to give the upcoming film a chance now.
@69 – Don’t take the “no color” thing literally. Obviously there’s color. But he’s known for a certain, deliberate aesthetic where the colors are darker and more washed out.
And the scene where Barry saves Iris is incredible. A superhero rescue done as a love scene. In fact, the whole Flash intro in this version is great. And his big moment in the climax is just perfect. I have to wonder again: they had this, but went with that?
@73,
And his big moment in the climax is just perfect. I have to wonder again: they had this, but went with that?
I know, right?
And Tom Holkenborg’s cue for that sequence is such a big part of it works. It’s instantly become one of my favorite pieces of music in the entire DCEU.
@73,
What’s also baffling about the Flash’s treatment in the Theatrical Cut is that similarly to Cyborg, Geoff Johns has extensive history with the Scarlet Speedster.
He wrote the Flash’s monthly book for most of the 2000s (and crafted the second definitive Wally West run after Mark Waid’s seminal tenure). He als oco-created The CW show and his Barry Allen run heavily influenced it (for better and for worse).
So you’d figure that just like Victor Stone, Johns would’ve been Barry’s biggest advocate on the film. And for all we know, maybe he was and got overruled by upper management at WB.
But like the treatment of Victor Stone, it’s just baffling and another instance of why trying to apply logic and reason to Hollywood, heh, is a fool’s errand.
@Mr Magic: “And for all we know, maybe he was and got overruled by upper management at WB.”
Johns was head of DC Films. He was upper management himself. From some of Fisher’s reports he was just an asshole who overruled good ideas, while telling a black actor how something would play to a black audience. Think he did something similar with an issue involving the way a black actress wore her hair on the Krypton series. This was a discussion with the same story editor that got booted off the new Superman series. A privileged white man telling a black woman about her hair is a big faux pas.
Couterpoint: yeah, Flash’s moment was good, but it may have been judged too derivative of what Christopher Reeve’s Superman did in his first film. I can see ubergeek Whedon making that call.
By the way, IGN actually counted up how much of Snyder’s cut is in slow motion. It comes out to about 10% of the film!
@76,
I was unaware of the Krypton incident.
Dammit…Johns is one of my all-time favorite comics writers. His Green Lantern run in particular is one of those comics that changed my life…and I’m just really disappointed that he’s become (or always was) an a**hole.
@16/CLB: The Flash and Cyborg portions of the Snyder Cut I feel are some of the best parts of the film. As has been described in other reviews, those parts are like the heart of the movie and are the emotionally resonating parts as well.
A few thoughts:
1. Overall, better than the original, though that’s a low bar. I didn’t really notice the CGI that much until the cut scene after the credits in the original (and there were only a half dozen scenes or so that were reshot by Whedon with Cavill and his mustache).
2. Ye gods, that was long. And dreary, particularly in the color palette.
3. What really bugged me in the new version was how casual the violence was. The scene where Superman seems to be taking his time beating Steppenwolf to death seems particularly gratuitous–Supes seemed more interested in torturing Steppenwolf than in killing him. And Aquaman and Wonder Woman stood around looking bored while he did it (before adding their own parting blows as they tossed him back to Darkseid). I realize that in a battle like that killing may be inevitable, but Steppenwolf was down, his weapon destroyed, and he clearly wasn’t going anywhere. There was no reason for Superman to cut pieces off him with his heat vision. If killing him was necessary he could have done it quickly and less painfully.
I thought it was fun but not great. Definitely a different movie than 2017 but both had serious flaws.
This REVIEW is flawless tho.
FWIW my roomie & I watched this like we were bingeing a miniseries. We sat down on Sunday with beers & a giant nacho box and watched the first segment, took a break at the end of that for bathroom & more beverages, and went thru the whole thing that way. Snacks, drinks, and breaks made it a fun day.
So, Snyder’s elaborated on the WB opposition to the original Flash role in the climax:
“That was always a bone of contention with the studio: They didn’t want him running back through time there. It’s one of those things that when you start to dig into it, you go down a rabbit hole. It absolutely could have started there, because we do love the comics and often go, ‘Hey, it should look like that.’”
It will take me longer to read all these comments than it will to watch the film. On the other hand, I feel I’ll be more entertained with the comments…
I don’t understand how Warner flubbed a mustache removal while Marvel made Ruffalo Hulk work. Five years earlier.
@85/Randal Trimmer: The CGI team on Justice League had a lot less time and money, as I understand it. And maybe they weren’t as skilled. People assume CGI is just about punching a few buttons and letting the software do all the work, but the fact is that it’s very, very hard to make CGI look realistic unless really talented people put a lot of time and work into it, so if the time, budget, and talent aren’t there, it’ll look bad no matter how advanced the technology is.
@86 – Without googling it, I’m pretty sure I read that the CGI guys indeed said they were rushed and could have done a better job with more time and resources.
Count me as another person that never noticed the CGI Superman upper lip when I saw the original version in the theaters. I had to read about it in an article and my movie-going companion who saw the film with me did note something looked off so I guess some people just noticed that thing more than others.
Regarding the Snyder Cut, I do feel it’s a notable improvement on the theatrical version. I was actually one of those people who had no interest in a Snyder Cut because I did not like the bleak, dour tone of Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman so I had no interest in seeing more of the same and that the Whedon parts were probably an improvement on what would have been the original Snyder version. But the Snyder Cut does feel more coherent and I liked all of the additional character exposition. But it’s also overly long and bloated and could have use some fine trimming. I’m glad this cut exists though.
I really don’t get people saying negative things about a movie they haven’t even seen. I actually enjoyed both versions of the movie, but definitely think the Snyder version is better, all 4hrs and 2mins. of it. It definitely fleshed out the story and made Superman’s return more believable. I never noticed Superman’s upper lip problem in the original.
@89,
The Snyder Cut also completes the character/narrative arc that was set up by Jor-El during the First Flight sequence back in Man of Steel (even if Snyder had more plans for Supes):
“You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards.” (Man of Steel)
“They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall.” (Batman v Superman)
“But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.” (Justice League)
I don’t know if Goyer, Snyder, and Terrio planned that arc out or if they realized it along the way. And the bare bones of that arc’s conclusion were there in the Theatrical Cut, but it was just a shadow of what it could have been. Having the Director’s Cut intact now makes that payoff richer.
Add one more to those who never had a great problem with Superman’s upper lip in Whedon’s JL. Just one of those things that Snyder haters (who assumed it was his fault) latched on to, I guess. Plus that ‘Pet Sematary’ scene, with or without Whedon’s jokes, is really fun to watch because I’ve always wanted to see a movie version of an (Elseworlds?) Superman who for once stops being a goody two shoes, really beaks free of his self-imposed bonds and shows us what he is actually capable of. Anyone else here who’s seen Superman vs. The Elite? The ending (till Supes’ deception was revealed) truly gave me the chills. We might have even got to see such a version if Snyder had been able to build upon the Dark Future epilogue of his JL, but we all know that’s not likely to ever happen despite the #RestoreTheSnyderVerse hashtag now trending.
I’m no big Snyder fan TBH, but not a hater either. Frankly the tone of his DCEU films, while it could do with a bit of brightening up, is far more preferable to me than stupid comedic shtick like Thor Ragnarok. I find most of the MCU films, while watchable certainly, to be a bit too glib with the whole wink-wink-we-know-it’s-an-absurd-comic-book-film-ha-ha tone.
Snyder’s JL is definitely better than Whedon’s (who seems to be a reprehensible person BTW), no doubt about it. Is it overindulgent and bloated? Definitely. But what people making that complaint should realize is that his theatrical version would quite obviously have been edited down to a more manageable length as well. Maybe not as short as Whedon’s, but certainly he’s not an idiot and would never have gotten away with a 4+ hour theatrical cut. He has simply been lucky in that the unprecedented fan campaign along with HBOMax’s need for content convinced WB to indulge him, and in turn he got to make whatever he wanted without much further studio interference. 4+ hours? HBOMax suits must have thought – great, more content to get SnyderFans to subscribe! We can market it as a miniseries of sorts, and it’ll definitely pay for itself and more. In effect, with both versions they’ve eaten their cake and had it too.