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Star Trek: Voyager Rewatch: “Spirit Folk”

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Star Trek: Voyager Rewatch: “Spirit Folk”

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Star Trek: Voyager Rewatch: “Spirit Folk”

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Published on June 17, 2021

Screenshot: CBS
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Star Trek: Voyager "Spirit Folk"
Screenshot: CBS

“Spirit Folk”
Written by Bryan Fuller
Directed by David Livingston
Season 6, Episode 17
Production episode 237
Original air date: February 23, 2000
Stardate: unknown

Captain’s log. Paris has reconstructed the Fair Haven holodeck program, and is in it driving a version of a 1904 Oldsmobile Runabout with only moderate skill, eventually crashing into a barrel, damaging a tire. Seamus comments on his ability to afford such a vehicle, and Paris says he came into an inheritance. Seamus asks for a tiny percentage of that inheritance to pay for a drink to celebrate Paris’ good fortune.

Paris asks the computer to fix the car, which it does in an instant. Seamus, surprisingly, sees the computer doing that and thinks it’s black magic. He immediately tells everyone in the pub about it, and while most are skeptical of Seamus’ claim, some people do think that Paris and his friends are weird, and Milo tells of a town called Kilmanin where the whole town was taken by faerie folk.

Janeway walks in as “Katie O’Clare,” and all talk of the Voyager crew being fae folk ceases.

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Torres complains that the open-door policy of Fair Haven is straining the holoemitters. Kim has dressed up and has a bunch of flowers for a date with Maggie O’Halloran. Paris trails Kim on his date while holding a padd, and uses it to change Maggie into a cow right when Kim kisses her.

Chakotay summons the pair of them to the bridge (the only time in the entire episode there’s even a hint of actual ship’s business), and they never get around to restoring the cow.

Unbeknownst to Paris, Seamus and Milo were tailing him, and they saw Maggie’s transformation. They bring the cow to the church the following morning, where the EMH is back in his role as the town priest, delivering a fire-and-brimstone speech. They insist that the cow they have brought into the church is Maggie transformed. The EMH lies and says that he saw Maggie that very morning, after the alleged transformation. After mass ends, and Seamus and Milo depart with everyone else, leaving the cow behind, the EMH instructs the computer to transform her back. However, Maggie remembers bits of it—a strange dream where she was naked except for a bell and was brought to the church.

They go to the pub, and now everyone’s got a story about the Voyager crew being weird: Kim changing the weather, a daughter who fell into a well suddenly being safe seemingly thanks to “Katie,” and “Father Mulligan” disappearing after church one day. Michael Sullivan, however, thinks this is crazy talk, though others point out that he’s sweet on “Katie.”

Star Trek: Voyager "Spirit Folk"
Screenshot: CBS

Later, Sullivan gives Janeway a copy of Edmund Spenser’s The Faerie Queene by way of telling her what the townsfolk are saying. Sullivan laments that he had no idea that she loved epic poetry so much, which is odd, since their first conversation after Janeway reprogrammed him in “Fair Haven” was about poetry. When the conversation gets awkward, Janeway ends the program.

Janeway goes to Paris, asking what’s wrong with the program. The holodeck characters should not be able to notice when they make alterations like that. An investigation reveals that the code running the characters has been corrupted, and the subroutines that keep the characters unaware of anything outside the story, as it were, are not running. They call up Sullivan’s character, and instead of just the image as expected, they instead get him in character, where he recognizes that they’re in uniform and that he isn’t in Fair Haven. They try to fix him, but it doesn’t take.

Sullivan is now totally on Team Seamus and Milo with regards to the Voyager crew. Opinion is divided on how to deal with them: rifles, spells from old books, rowan berries and red thread. They catch Paris and Kim trying to fix the holodeck using a control panel in Sullivan’s Pub, and they shoot the control panel, thus borking the holodeck, killing the safety protocols, making it impossible to modify or end the program or call an exit—or get a transporter lock. They can beam Kim and Paris out with transporter enhancers, and they send the EMH in, wearing his mobile emitter so he won’t be subject to the malfunctioning holodeck.

Unfortunately, the EMH fails, getting himself captured, the mobile emitter being removed. He’s now malfunctioning with the rest of them, and is apparently now able to be hypnotized, er, somehow. The townspeople get him to reveal the truth, and Sullivan attaches the mobile emitter to himself. Tuvok gets a transporter lock on the emitter and beams it to the bridge, and Sullivan is now present.

Janeway decides to take him into her confidence, telling him a version of the truth: she says they’re time travellers, going back four hundred and seventy-five years into the past. She and Sullivan return to Fair Haven and convince the townspeople that they aren’t using magic, just advanced technology from the future. Eventually, the folks accept this, and free Paris, Kim, and the EMH. Also Torres says the program can’t run 24/7, so its use will be limited—but that means it now works right.

Can’t we just reverse the polarity? Apparently, running a starship holodeck 24/7 causes all kinds of technical problems. Also the safety protocols won’t stop a holographic rifle from damaging a computer console. Sure.

There’s coffee in that nebula! Janeway is very upset that the malfunctioning holodeck is messing with her nookie.

Please state the nature of the medical emergency. The EMH gives a fiery sermon on being excellent to each other and partying on, dudes, and then later is hypnotized, er, somehow. Amusingly, when they ask him what his real name is, he says he hasn’t decided yet…

Star Trek: Voyager "Spirit Folk"
Screenshot: CBS

Half and half. Torres’ sole participation in the program her boyfriend created and caretakes is to bitch about how much of a technical problem it is for her.

Everybody comes to Neelix’s. Paris at one point refers to “his” open-door policy for Fair Haven, even though that was Neelix’s idea.

Forever an ensign. Kim kisses a cow. It was funnier when Tex Avery did it.

Resistance is futile. Seven is barely in the episode, but her lone contribution is to suggest the EMH use his mobile emitter, so he won’t be tied to the malfunctioning holodeck.

What happens on the holodeck stays on the holodeck. If you shut down a program midstream while it’s malfunctioning, you lose the entire program, which proves that the people who programmed the holodeck are less talented than the people who programmed Microsoft Word, which is always able to restore my documents after the computer crashes…

No sex, please, we’re Starfleet. Kim wants to get lucky with Maggie, but kisses a cow instead. Meanwhile, Janeway is annoyed that her holographic boy toy is asking hard questions and not letting her just have fun banging her holographic boy toy.

Star Trek: Voyager "Spirit Folk"
Screenshot: CBS

Do it.

“Just because we’re from different worlds doesn’t mean we can’t care for each other.”

–Janeway to Sullivan, which is pretty much code for I JUST WANT TO BANG YOU, THANKS.

Welcome aboard. Back from “Fair Haven” are Richard Riehle, Fintan McKeown, Henriette Ivanans, and Duffie McIntire. Also appearing as Fair Haven citizens are Ian Abercrombie as Milo (he last appeared in “Someone to Watch Over Me” as the abbot), Ian Patrick Williams as Dr. Fitzgerald, and Bairbre Dowling as Edith.

Trivial matters: This is a sequel to “Fair Haven,” obviously, with Paris having reconstructed the Fair Haven holodeck program for reasons passing understanding. It was stated in the prior episode that it would take about six weeks to re-create the program, and this episode aired six weeks after “Fair Haven.”

The working title of the episode was “Daoine Sidhe” (“the people of the mounds”), but it was changed, probably because they figured everyone would mispronounce the Gaelic title. (It’s pronounced “deena she.”)

This is the second time a holodeck character has been removed from the holodeck and thought it might be the Americas—Sullivan says that here, and Leonardo da Vinci said it in “Concerning Flight.”

Bairbre Dowling is the ex-wife of TNG/DS9 actor Colm “Chief O’Brien” Meaney.

The Olds Runabout was the best-selling car in America from 1903-1905, outselling the Ford Three-Fold in 1904 by a factor of three. It’s not clear whether or not Paris named the car after a great river on Earth…

And finally, for some real trivia, according to u/DoctorowWho42 on Reddit, if you start this episode at exactly 11:49:35 on New Year’s Eve, Kim will smooch the cow right at the stroke of midnight.

Star Trek: Voyager "Spirit Folk"
Screenshot: CBS

Set a course for home. “Saints preserve us!” I’m just sitting here trying to figure out why anybody thought doing a sequel to “Fair Haven” was a good idea. Hell, I’m still having trouble figuring out why anyone thought doing “Fair Haven” in the first place was a good idea.

There are some things I like better in this than in “Fair Haven.” For starters, there are literary references to actual works of literature! Besides The Faerie Queene, we get mentions and/or sightings of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court by Mark Twain and The Time Machine by H.G. Wells. The Olds Runabout was cool. And Harry Kim smooches a cow.

Unfortunately, these aren’t enough to mitigate the awfulness, from the actual honest-to-goodness use of “Saints preserve us!” to the EMH somehow being hypnotized, which is simply not possible for a photonic life form, to the tired stereotypes to the idiocy of the holodeck being able to be destroyed by a holographic rifle.

Plus there’s the biggie. We’ve already seen that Quark’s holosuites—which you know he got on the cheap, and which we all know he had Rom maintain on the cheap—can run the Vic Fontaine program 26/7 without any technical difficulties whatsoever, yet the super-duper Voyager holodecks on the top-of-the-line starship can’t manage it here. Sure. I buy that.

This is a terrible sequel to a terrible episode that didn’t even deserve to be made in the first place, much less get a followup.

Warp factor rating: 0

 

Rewatcher’s note: There’s just a couple days left in the Kickstarter for your humble rewatcher’s latest project: The Four ???? of the Apocalypse, which features alternate takes on the apocalyptic equestrians of yore. Among the authors are Seanan McGuire, David Gerrold, Jonathan Maberry, Peter David, Jody Lynn Nye, David Mack, Dayton Ward & Kevin Dilmore, Michael Jan Friedman, Adam-Troy Castro, Laura Anne Gilman, Gail Z. Martin, and tons more. Read all about the four cats of the apocalypse! The four lawyers! The four opera singers! The four rock stars! The four cheerleaders! And more! The anthology is being crowdfunded on Kickstarter, and has tons of nifty bonuses and extras, like book bundles, homemade cookies, mystery book bundles, autographed Star Trek books, a custom story—please, check it out!

Keith R.A. DeCandido‘s latest book is All-the-Way House, the latest in the Systema Paradoxa series about cryptids. AtWH is about the Jersey Devil, and takes place in 2020, 1909, and 1735. It’s out this month from the NeoParadoxa imprint of eSpec Books. Ordering links here.

About the Author

Keith R.A. DeCandido

Author

Keith R.A. DeCandido has been writing about popular culture for this site since 2011, primarily but not exclusively writing about Star Trek and screen adaptations of superhero comics. He is also the author of more than 60 novels, more than 100 short stories, and more than 70 comic books, both in a variety of licensed universes from Alien to Zorro, as well as in worlds of his own creation, most notably the new Supernatural Crimes Unit series debuting in the fall of 2025. Read his blog, or follow him all over the Internet: Facebook, The Site Formerly Known As Twitter, Instagram, Threads, Blue Sky, YouTube, Patreon, and TikTok.
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3 years ago

 It was stated in the prior episode that it would take about six weeks to re-create the program, and this episode aired six weeks after “Fair Haven.”

Gee, I’m glad to see the writers can break out the continuity when it really matters. /s

Seriously, there are way too many holodeck malfunctions where people either get killed, hurt, or have life and limb in serious danger for them to continue to be used. We banned lawn darts for less. Whoever the safety inspection body is in the future is full of slackers. 

Also, what did the Irish ever do to Star Trek? Between this and “Up the Long Ladder” (and them wanting to put leprechaun in Chief O’Brien’s quarters in “If Wishes Were Horses” before Colm Meaney squashed that) the Irish really get it rough. At least they get Unification in 2024. 

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3 years ago

Sidhe can also be pronounced as Sith 😉 

Paris is driving an American car in an old Country Irish village. Why Irish? Because nobody would believe American villagers going all faerie folk???

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3 years ago

By all my understanding of how the mobile emitter and a holographic character like Sullivan should work, it really shouldn’t be as simple as physically attaching the emitter to an existing holographic projection to let him breakout.

 

I mean, sure, the mobile emitter is advanced technology, so I guess it could contextually detect the holographic projection, interface with the computer running the program, carve out the specific physical and personality subroutines associated with that character, and transfer them to its projector, but I can’t think of any reason that it should do that as a default reaction to proximity to a holographic character.

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3 years ago

@5- I could definitely be wrong here, but my recollection of “Concerning Flight,” was that the baddie had stolen the mobile transmitter and downloaded the Da Vinci program and then, presumably offscreen, tinkered with them to get the former to run the latter.  If it was just a slap-and-go job like here, consider my grumble to retroactively apply to that episode as well.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

All I can think to say is that it’s surprising to see Bryan Fuller telling such a banal story as this. I would’ve thought that the future creator of Wonderfalls, Dead Like Me, and Pushing Daisies would’ve been able to find some kind of edgy, surreal, or macabre twist to a fluffy holodeck story.

Although I do kind of wonder if the sheer ridiculousness of it was something of a deliberate satire of everything wrong with Trek holodeck stories. If so, though, it didn’t work.

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3 years ago

Yeah, the Fair Haven episodes are just such a disaster. It’s like the monkey’s paw got the “Voyager should do a couple of episodes without a jeopardy angle” wish.  Also, Doc gives the most secular sermons ever, without ever mentioning God or Jesus.  Wait, come to think of it, do we think under Catholicism the Doctor is tainted by original sin? Hmmmmm.

Plus there’s the biggie. We’ve already seen that Quark’s holosuites—which you know he got on the cheap, and which we all know he had Rom maintain on the cheap—can run the Vic Fontaine program 26/7 without any technical difficulties whatsoever, yet the super-duper Voyager holodecks on the top-of-the-line starship can’t manage it here. Sure. I buy that.

Possibly a software problem not a hardware one. The Vic Fontaine program was written by an unseen character, but seemingly one who knew what he was doing. Fair Haven was written by… Tom Paris, with what free time he has between two jobs and a girlfriend (granted, he neglects one of those jobs and the girlfriend). The expertise to make Fair Haven work and be able to run 24 (or 26)/7 without issues might exist, just not be available to the ship. Which, come to think of it, might explain why an in-holodeck shotgun can take out the safeties, Paris just doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing and there’s no real QA– if it compiles, it ships.

Later, Sullivan gives Janeway a copy of Edmund Spenser’s The Faerie Queene by way of telling her what the townsfolk are saying.

Kind of a funny choice, considering Spenser is English. The Spirit Folk might be feared, but the English are the real enemy…

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Crusader75
3 years ago

Quark’s is on the sketchy side, but Rom is a great technician who at least has theoretical access to proper parts.  Voyager is into the fifth year of not having access to proper Federation repair facilities and quite rough use with a chief engineer who has difficulty identifying fecal matter with a tricorder.  That a system as touchy as holodecks normally are is unstable should not be a surprise.

And what should you tell your open world game NPC sex toy when he starts getting pretensions of self-awareness?

garreth
3 years ago

Wow!  Two “zero” ratings for each of the “Fair Haven” episodes!  So this review confirms I’m sparing myself misery if I don’t watch this episode.  However, knowing and seeing the fun screengrab of Kim kissing the cow at least makes me want to pull up the episode just to watch that one moment.

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3 years ago

@8- Re: Tom Paris’s spaghetti code

I suppose that would also go some way to explaining why their basic programming is to react naturalistically* to the appearance of future people, with a separate set of instructions on top of that that says “No, actually, ignore that.”

 

*According to their stereotype, that is.

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3 years ago

:

outselling the Ford Three-Fold in 1904 by a factor of three.

Given that “Three-Fold” *means* factor of three, and neither I nor Google has ever heard of the Ford Three-Fold, I suspect a notetaking or transcription error here …

Nice one with the “great river on Earth” though.

S

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@11/benjamin: We’ve seen holodeck characters reacting to “real-world” events since “The Big Goodbye,” although that may also have been due to a glitch in the program. After all, it’s their job to be interactive and to respond adaptively and convincingly to whatever the players might say or do. So it makes sense to me that their basic responses would be designed to be inclusive for maximum realism and flexibility, and that a filter saying “Disregard out-of-character conversations and actions by the players” would be laid in separately on top of that.

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3 years ago

@13- I’ve tended to assume the reverse- that by default holographic characters will ignore out-of-setting behavior or appearance as far as possible, to make historic settings or characters more accessible to, say, members of different species or those with obvious prosthetics, and that “Realism mode,” is an option layered on top of that, but I suppose it could go either way.

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3 years ago

As I wrote on the “Fair Haven” thread, the treatment of religion in the Fair Haven simulation is terrible. As noted above, Father Doctor never once mentions God or Jesus, and here we get the church set which features no religious icons or images, and the most nondescript stained-glass windows I’ve ever seen. None of this would be noteworthy except that in “Fair Haven,” we were repeatedly told how “authentic” the setting was.

Just a hunch, but I’m guessing this episode was already in some stage of production before “Fair Haven” even aired, so it was too late to pull the plug on this bad idea when “Fair Haven” received such a negative reaction from viewers.

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3 years ago

@15 Hollywood in general tends to be pretty bad at portraying Catholics in particular, too. Unless the movie/show is explicitly about it (i.e. The Trouble With Angels), you tend to see all sorts of things that are just baffling if you actually are/were Catholic. For example, nuns and priests do not wear rosaries around their necks (they are usually worn looped over a belt at the waist), but you see it all the time in movies and TV. As we saw in Fair Haven, the writers didn’t even know that Protestants and Catholics number the 10 Commandments differently, making one of the characters appear to be a serial killer! 

garreth
3 years ago

@1: Perhaps the writers and showrunners think it’s okay to stereotype the Irish because at least it’s a “charming” stereotype.  Like, “look at these quaint and well-meaning folk living this idyllic life.”  And also, because it’s a stereotype of a Caucasian culture.  Star Trek wouldn’t dare do something as offensive as “Code of Honor” again.

I think this is the first time in the history of this rewatch that a season of any Star Trek series got a rating of “0” for more than one episode?

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@14/benjamin: What I’m saying is that if you want to program a character that responds believably to whatever unpredictable things a player might say or do, it might be hard to achieve that if you restrict its basic programming parameters. I’m not much of a gamer, but I remember my frustration with early text games when I could never figure out what to type in that would get a meaningful response, because the programmed range of responses was so limited. If you don’t want the players to be frustrated that way, the NPCs need to be adaptive and able to notice and respond any number of things that the game designers might not have anticipated. Talk to any RPG gamemaster and they’ll probably tell you how rarely the players respond to a game situation the way the GM or the campaign writers expected.

So it seems to me that first and foremost, to get a satisfying realistic character performance, you’d need to give the NPC the ability to adapt to such unanticipated responses, rather than just failing to notice anything outside a preset menu. Thus, it makes sense to me that any restriction on their ability to notice things would be an additional filter layer ruling out only certain categories.

 

@15/bgsu98: Since the Federation is mostly a secular society, it makes sense that they’d program a historic church simulation in a secularized way, more as just a bit of period color than as anything with a genuine religious message.

Also, TV episodes are generally written and filmed well over six weeks before airtime. It takes weeks to do editing and post-production after the filming is done, and you want to have as much of a backlog as possible in case of delays. In this case, the final draft script for “Spirit Folk” was dated November 29, 1999, while “Fair Haven” didn’t air until January 12, 2000, and “Spirit Folk” aired February 16 (only five weeks after “Fair Haven,” not six).

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Lea
3 years ago

 

@8 – not only was Spenser English, he was a colonial administrator in Ireland! He wrote a ton of stuff about how horribly backwards and lawless Irish culture was and how it needed to be totally reformed by the English!

Perhaps less relevantly, there’s also virtually nothing about fairies in The Faerie Queene (although most people have not read it and thus would not know that). 

(I’ve been lurking on these rewatch posts for ages and this is what I turn up for. Once an early modernist, always an early modernist.)

 

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3 years ago

Thank you! The Faerie Queene has nothing to do with fairies or “spirit folk” or any other mystical nonsense; it’s about knights and stuff. Proving once again that if it’s not Moby Dick, the Star Trek writers never so much as read the Spark Notes of whatever works of literature they referenced. 

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@21/krad: My own notes confirm the 23rd, so Memory Alpha is wrong, then. And I can’t figure out how to edit the sidebar under the current system.

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Spirit Folk is proof that a beginner screenwriter can have a major disaster on his resumé and still build a serious career afterwards. Bryan Fuller has certainly done well for himself these past two decades since Voyager ended, even getting a second shot at Star Trek through Discovery.

But the only reason I assume this episode got made is because another story fell through the cracks and Brannon Braga desperately needed something to be ready for filming the next day, and the sets were available. An unsalvageable mess that neither Kroeker nor Livingston were able to do justice. Once again, we have to endure Janeway and Michael Sullivan, which once again has me questioning Voyager’s usually reliable casting department when it comes to guest stars. Seriously, the worst ‘love interest’ to ever taint the franchise.

When Torres says the open-door policy of the Fair Haven program is putting a strain on the holoemitters, that should have been the end of the story. In a more sensible episode, Chakotay would have ordered the program shut down for good. Why would he indulge reckless crew behavior and allow Paris to not only keep the thing running but also perform stupid and unprofessional pranks on people like Kim? Did the show forget he’s on probation over last season’s Thirty Days? For that matter, aren’t these people supposed to be professionals? And Janeway is also less than professional by using the program despite the promise she made seven weeks before.

I do enjoy @Krad’s rewatch snarkiness, which gives the whole episode a Spock’s Brain vibe. At least it’s a fun disaster to rewatch.

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3 years ago

As a practicing Catholic, the ignorance of Catholic theology and practice is abominable. I can only imagine the mess most TV and movie writers make of other faiths, especially non-Christian ones.

The lack of statuary and icons is always jarring. How priests, sisters, nuns, and other religious are portrayed is ridiculous (yes, there is a difference between a sister and a nun).

Weddings are one of the most egregious distortions. It seems they never include the accompanying Mass. I certainly don’t expect them to show the entire thing. A Mass often lasts a hour or so, but some indication of the ceremony leading into the vows, and/or the ceremony that follows would be nice). Proper liturgical music is always an issue; the traditional Wedding March would never be considered appropriate. How the hierarchy works is also odd.

As I say, the goof ups they make of a religious faith that should be at least familiar to most Western writers, and practiced by over a billion people, can only be indicative of the distortions of the faiths practiced by the other 6 or 7 billion people on the planet.

garreth
3 years ago

Wait, so is this episode so bad it’s good, like “Spock’s Brain?”  Or it’s just flat-out terrible?  Train-wrecks can be fun to watch.

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3 years ago

Let’s look at some of the other questionable items in this episode.

1) Why would Harry replicate real flowers for his date with a hologram on the holodeck – wasting replicator energy and replicator rations – instead of having the holodeck create him holographic flowers?

2) Maggie somehow has vague memories of being a cow when the Doctor changes her back. This is a big can of worms that should never have been opened. Holodeck characters retain some memories of their previous “existences” as holographic objects or characters? They remember being a rock? Or Sandrine? Or Captain Proton’s robot? Or having sex with a member of Voyager’s crew? 😶

3) A holographic bullet can, while the holodeck safeties are still on, blow out a real computer terminal.

4) The Doctor, despite being a computer program, can somehow be hypnotized. Keith did point out this absurdity.

5) Tom Paris really has nothing better to do than stalk Harry and change his date into a cow? How old is this guy, six?

6) Janeway describes Michael Sullivan as a “300-deciwatt hologram.” A deciwatt is a tenth of a watt, so Michael only uses 30 watts of power? 

The only part of the episode that I found remotely interesting was the scene where Michael Sullivan transported onto the bridge instead of the Doctor.

I watched “Shattered” last night since I had already rewatched “Spirit Folk” back-to-back with “Fair Haven” when “Fair Haven” was up for this Rewatch. At least “Shattered” didn’t include a visit to Fair Haven when Chakotay and Janeway were touring the different time frames of Voyager…

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3 years ago

@18, Christopher-

Fair point, although I’ll counter and say that in my own experience as a gamemaster, my safety protocols have a much better record than those of the holodeck- under no circumstances have one of my NPCs fired a shotgun at a player.

JamesP
3 years ago

Garreth @@@@@ 17

TOS garnered a pair of zero scores: The Omega Glory and Plato’s Stepchildren. TNG and DS9 each received one (Shades of Grey in TNG, and Profit and Lace in DS9). But this is the first time both zeros came in the same season of the show.

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Austin
3 years ago

@26 – “3) A holographic bullet can, while the holodeck safeties are still on, blow out a real computer terminal.”

How do you figure? Common sense would dictate that, under safety protocols, any bullet-like projectile would be photon-based only. Even if you were to design a shooting range simulation, the impact of the bullet can be easily simulated.  

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Austin
3 years ago

Oops, I read @29 too fast. I didn’t see that you said the list was questionable. Carry on!

JamesP
3 years ago

Austin @@@@@ 29 

It happened in the context of this episode while the Fair Havenites were shooting at Tom and Harry while they tried to fix the holodeck. *Maybe* it was because the arch/terminal was already showing, but it did happen. And it absolutely shouldn’t have.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@26/bgsu98: “Maggie somehow has vague memories of being a cow when the Doctor changes her back. This is a big can of worms that should never have been opened. Holodeck characters retain some memories of their previous “existences” as holographic objects or characters? They remember being a rock? Or Sandrine? Or Captain Proton’s robot?”

Of course not. Maggie is a character within this specific MMORPG; she wouldn’t exist within those separate programs, any more than a Pokemon would exist within a Sonic the Hedgehog game. They’re not real entities with independent existence, just illusions created through a series of computations. Presumably what happened here was that the character of Maggie within the open-world MMORPG was basically just reskinned as a cow. You can do that with game characters, alter their appearance in various ways, while the program still operates them as if they were the same characters. You can find online videos of glitches where that happens accidentally, e.g. where a human character in Red Dead Redemption is mistakenly skinned as a horse so you get a bizarre horse monstrosity moving and talking like a human.

In this case, the Maggie NPC within the program was modified to behave like a cow as well as look like one, but it’s still the same NPC within the MMORPG, so it’s reasonable that the NPC would retain a memory of what occurred to it within the game. But there is no reason whatsoever why that should have anything to do with separate holodeck programs, any more than an edit I make to a Word document should affect my browser.

 

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3 years ago

For some reason, holographic palpatine has returned weapons can damage the ship when the holographic system is stressed. I assume it’s the same principle behind the artillery strike blowing a hole in the ship in the WW2 Hirogen episode.

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3 years ago

I mean, Jesus, can you imagine if one of the characters remembered being Tuvok’s wife? “This man with pointy ears was having rough and frantic sex with me!” 🤭

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3 years ago

@19/Lea: @8 – not only was Spenser English, he was a colonial administrator in Ireland! He wrote a ton of stuff about how horribly backwards and lawless Irish culture was and how it needed to be totally reformed by the English!

Wow, I’m glad you delurked for that, because that’s amazing. I was tongue-in-cheek just going based off him being English, I didn’t realize Spenser’s backstory. It’s like they intentionally found an author that an Irishman of this period would be highly unlikely to read and pass on, even if it’s vaguely on topic (which, as you say, it’s also not really on-topic, so…). I’d say that Sullivan was testing Janeway and her non-reaction is part of what made him suspicious, except we know for a fact this script doesn’t deserve that much credit.

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@34: The late Ian Abercrombie definitely moved on to better things after Spirit Folk and made quite an impression as the voice of Palpatine on Clone Wars.

garreth
3 years ago

@37: He’ll always be Mr. Pitt to me!

https://youtu.be/qTz6EU79SGM

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3 years ago

I was wondering if someone would comment on Ian Abercrombie’s recurring character on Seinfeld considering the other episode threads that were also derailed by the Seinfeld Train. 😅

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Austin
3 years ago

@34 – The holodeck should never be able to damage the ship. Which is why Keith always says that the safety controls should be fucking hardwired! Paraphrasing, of course :D

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@37-39: Ian Abercrombie was also one of the best screen incarnations of Alfred Pennyworth, in the otherwise mediocre 2002-3 Birds of Prey TV series.

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3 years ago

Does Milo eat his Snickers with a knife and fork, too? 😂

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3 years ago

“Never underestimate an Irish hologram.”

You need to well and truly check your brain at the door before watching this one. The whole episode is based around the unlikely premise of a group of characters in a holodeck programme suddenly starting to notice how strange their existence is and coming up with a barmy theory to explain it. This is followed up with a series of increasingly unlikely occurrences, such as the Doctor being hypnotised and the idea you can download him to a different programme just by hamfistedly ripping his mobile emitter off (isn’t his arm being generated by the mobile emitter?). Janeway’s decision to risk lives rather than lose their friendships with the holodeck characters is a bit odd, but then I guess if we didn’t understand the concept of forming an emotional attachment to people we know aren’t real, we wouldn’t be here.

But if you can accept the premise and an even bigger bunch of Irish stereotypes than there were in “Fair Haven”, I actually find there’s an odd kind of charm here, and something very Star Trek about the way that, once they realise they’re past the point of no return, Voyager’s crew treat the holograms like any other culture to make peaceful contact with. In the end, the extreme points of view fade away and things are resolved by people sitting down and finding common ground.

It’s a shame the episode falls back on the old plot device of “Safety protocols are offline”. Janeway’s decision to deal with the holograms on their own terms rather than just cutting the power would have been a lot more acceptable if Tom and Harry had merely been inconvenienced rather than in actual danger. Although Paris really deserved some karma for that cow trick… (Janeway really gives him a withering look when it comes up during the negotiations.) I find it more plausible than most people on here that the holodeck safeties don’t protect inanimate objects.

I think after Birds of Prey and him being in “Someone to Watch Over Me” a short while back, my main memory of Ian Abercrombie is of him in that Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode where Mr Trick hires a bunch of assassins to compete to kill Buffy. The Doctor notes he hasn’t decided on a name yet, the first reference to his quest being ongoing since “Nothing Human”. Possibly damning with faint praise but after hearing this complaint on “Fair Haven”, I noticed that the Doctor actually does mention God in his sermon.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@43/cap-mjb: “the unlikely premise of a group of characters in a holodeck programme suddenly starting to notice how strange their existence is and coming up with a barmy theory to explain it.”

I don’t find that unlikely. This is how artificial intelligence simulations have always worked — they react to stimuli in a way intended to appear convincingly like how a person would react to those stimuli. The characters simply acted as they were programmed to act — i.e. to respond in character to whatever stimuli they were presented with. The only change was that the glitches removed the filter that kept them from noticing the fourth wall, as it were.

 

“I find it more plausible than most people on here that the holodeck safeties don’t protect inanimate objects.”

If we were talking about a sword or a club, maybe. But there is absolutely no reason, with or without safeties engaged, why a holographic gun should fire actual bullets. This trope has driven me crazy ever since “The Big Goodbye.” Bullets travel far too fast for the eye to see, so there is no sense whatsoever in bothering to simulate them. Just do what the special-effects artists who make TV episodes like this have done for decades — simulate the firing of the gun and the impact on the target separately, without having any actual projectile pass between them. Since the impact effect would just be a hologram itself, it should do no actual damage.

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Ellynne
3 years ago

I think we have to assume malfunctioning hollodecs are a feature, not a bug. These people are all adrenalin junkies and they get a big thrill out of whatever life-threatening event is happening this week because obviously their lives in the Delta Quadrant are too dull. Quark’s was a cheap model because it didn’t malfunction.

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3 years ago

My first problem with this and many of the other holodeck episodes is that any real priority at all is given to engineering or programming problems in the holodecks. Especially on a ship like Voyager, far from home and frequently running short of supplies (including energy sources). Which also begs the question of why they’d be running any such extremely nonessential system 24/7. There are cheaper ways to maintain crew morale.

I mean, Torres has enough to do maintaining the rest of the ship’s systems. There should be some ensign or lt-jg on the engineering staff assigned to holo maintenance as one of their duties, not the chief engineer. But that wouldn’t be a main cast character, eh?

You’d also think that with all of the previous problems, extending back into TNG, they’d have erected some sort of selective firewall between the holodecks and the rest of the ship’s systems which an entertainment module like Fair Haven could never penetrate. And the safeties …! They seem to have learned nothing from the Moriarty incident. Or Voyager’s own experience with Seska.

And they still let Paris do holo programming (other than his own Captain Proton routines)!!!

(But continuity doesn’t need to get in the way of telling a good (or lousy) story.)

By the way, Spenser notwithstanding, IMHO the Irish have had at least partial revenge. Some of the best prose, poetry, and drama in the English language has been produced by the Irish and people of Irish extraction.

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Jeremy Erman
3 years ago

Is it this episode or the previous one where Janeway says something like, “These people may not be real, but our relationships with them are.”? I remember hearing that line and thinking it was one of the dumbest things I’d heard in STAR TREK. The casual way that VOYAGER treated holograms as living beings without any rationale always bothered me, and I didn’t like it when that attitude seeped into DEEP SPACE NINE via Vic Fonatine. The idea that beloved holographic characters–including the Doctor–can become real, or should be treated as real, just because you love them, has no basis in STAR TREK technology (this isn’t the VELVETEEN RABBIT!) and is, to me, sloppy writing.

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3 years ago

@44/CLB: “there is absolutely no reason, with or without safeties engaged, why a holographic gun should fire actual bullets.”

Maybe not, but that doesn’t change the fact that they do, as established as far back in “The Big Goodbye” as you say. So given that that’s a long-standing premise of the show, whether it makes sense or not, it’s consistent with earlier episodes for them to do so here. Possibly it’s to allow for their effect on non-holographic objects the participants might have brought onto the holodeck with them (eg someone’s hat being shot off).

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@48/cap-mjb: “Possibly it’s to allow for their effect on non-holographic objects the participants might have brought onto the holodeck with them (eg someone’s hat being shot off).”

Well, that makes no sense. There are other ways to simulate such effects without actually violating every sane standard of public health and safety by having live projectiles in a recreation area. Holodecks use force fields and tractor beams, so it would be ridiculously easy to yank someone’s hat off without actually endangering their life. And presumably nobody would bring a real possession to the holodeck actually wanting it to be damaged by a bullet.

Anyway, the Mythbusters showed once that it’s actually next to impossible to shoot someone’s hat off with a bullet; it’s a pure Hollywood invention. So if you wanted to create that effect in a holodeck, a “real” bullet would be the last thing you’d want.

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3 years ago

 @46 Some of the best prose, poetry, and drama in the English language has been produced by the Irish and people of Irish extraction.

Which is honestly what makes this whole thing so baffling to me. The Irish are famous for producing some of the finest men and women of letters in history. Heck, my old Borders bookstore (shut up, I’m old) used to specifically separate Irish poets into their own section because there were so many of them. It would have been much more interesting (and accurate), for Janeway to have been handed poetry by say, Eibhlín Dubh Ní Chonaill. 

And I am in 100% agreement with Chris Bennett on this one- there is no need for the holodeck guns to be shooting bullets at any time, ever. The safeties going off shouldn’t effect that, because there shouldn’t be anything *there* for them to effect. What irritates me most about this is that if they absolutely have to make the safeties go haywire (and I wish they wouldn’t, honestly), then it would make far more sense for them to have hit the control panel with something that should at least have already *been* solid before the program went cuckoo, like a chair or a rock. 

@47 The idea that beloved holographic characters–including the Doctor–can become real, or should be treated as real, just because you love them, has no basis in STAR TREK technology (this isn’t the VELVETEEN RABBIT!) and is, to me, sloppy writing.

What’s funny about this to me is that there is a really good way of dealing with this- which we know because they do it on BSG. [Uh, Spoilers, I guess] Commander Adama’s line about how the person Tyrol fell in love with wasn’t real, but that his love for her was, and he should be grateful for getting to experience that always struck me as a far better way of framing the issue than what we have here. Heck, The Orville does a better job with the discussions around Claire and Isaac dating. (Also, kudos for the Velveteen Rabbit shout-out, that book was a favorite of mine as a kid!)

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3 years ago

@49 and 50: It doesn’t matter what we think “should” be. The fact is that it’s long established that holographic guns fire holographic bullets which behave in exactly the same way as real bullets unless the holodeck safeties stop them. So the episode’s events are consistent with the fictional universe they take place in.

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3 years ago

I’m not arguing it isn’t consistent, I am arguing that it is consistently stupid. How many people need to get shot before holodeck designers take out something that, for all the reasons Chris Bennett as pointed out, shouldn’t be there in the first place? The answer should be “one.” (Actually, I’d argue the answer is they shouldn’t have put the bullets in at all, but barring that, this should have been fixed in the TNG era.)

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

 @51/cap-mjb: Of course it matters what we think a story should do. We’re not forbidden to criticize the creative decisions of a story’s creators. We’re not required to blindly, unquestioningly accept whatever bad and stupid decisions they make. Internal consistency is NOT the only permissible standard by which to analyze fiction. It is by far the most superficial, least important level of analysis, merely cataloguing what happens in a story rather than actually thinking about the ideas conveyed, their merits, and their flaws.

Would you say it doesn’t matter whether a meal at a restaurant is cooked well or badly, that the customers should just swallow down whatever slop they’re served without a peep of complaint? Would you say that if your computer came with a defective hard drive (or whatever computers have these days), you should just accept that without question rather than complaining to the manufacturer? As consumers of fiction, we have every right to complain when its quality falls short. Of course it matters. It always matters.

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Austin
3 years ago

The holodeck and its absurdity is there for story purposes. We all know that. But if something like this ever comes close to actually happening in the distant future (it won’t), there is no way in hell that they would ever be designed in a way that can kill someone (directly) or damage the ship. What is really funny is that Earth’s society is supposed to have grown and matured into, basically, ideal humanity. And yet they design something like this with really bad safeguards? In RL, we are far from ideal humanity but we have way better safety protocols. The holodeck would have been litigated into nonexistence if it were around today.

Ideally, the holodeck would be mostly fancy lights, with a few forcefields in the right places for more realism. But nothing that would remotely harm someone directly. 

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3 years ago

There is no reason at all why Fair Haven couldn’t be a pretty new England seaside town. No reason except you couldn’t get cheap comedy out of Irish stereotypes!

The holodeck is way too problematic for any sane service to allow it aboard their ships. And it’s magic besides! 

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

The problem with the holodeck concept is that it lagged behind the popularization of the idea of virtual reality in mass-media science fiction. If TNG had been developed a few years later, we might’ve had the crew slipping on VR headsets rather than going into a big empty room. Holodecks are a ridiculously overcomplicated way of achieving the same effect.

Although there’s really no excuse for them not thinking of VR in the 1980s, given that literally the very first Star Trek story ever told, back in 1964, was about lifelike illusions experienced solely in the mind.

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Austin
3 years ago

@56 – And what is funny is that VR was used by the Equinox crew! It was a tantalizing display of what could have been. You could get basically the same experience if everyone was wearing a headset. It might be boring for writers, but I think you could still mine some good stuff out of that without having to resort to absurdity just to get the plot you want.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@57/Austin: I doubt it would’ve made much difference for the writers, since they could’ve just fallen back on the tired old “If you die in VR, you die in real life” cliche. Although that would’ve been even worse than “The holodeck safeties are off,” since at least that actually makes a modicum of physical sense, even if it’s terrible engineering design.

Also, of course, with VR instead of holodecks, there would’ve been no Emergency Medical Hologram.

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3 years ago

If we’re looking for a “realistic” portrayal of how things could be in the future, we’d have to get rid of a number of ther things beside holodecks that can kill you.  Starting with Spock (and all the other human/alien hybrids). warp drive, the transporter, phasers and pretty much all the other tech.  Much like “warp drive moves at the speed of plot”, so does the other tech.  You want the holodecks to be able to kill someone?  Okay.  The transporter can split someone into good and evil?  Okey-doke.  The transporter can recover you even after you’ve been beamed into space as nothing but energy?  No problem.  A hologram can become sentient just by being activated too long?  Sure, why not?  The computer can create a sentient hologram just by being asked to create a character that can defeat someone?  No sweat.

Star Trek has always had tech that showed up once and was never mentioned again despite it being really, really useful.  By the same token, it’s had established tech do things that it should be able to do even though it’s been claimed that such a thing was impossible.

We don’t get to determine what is acceptable or not.  That’s up to the writers and TPTB.  We can either accept it and continue watching or decide that it’s just gotten too silly and find some other entertainment.  

Star Trek is entertainment, not a documentary.

garreth
3 years ago

@56/CLB: But people don’t like putting on/wearing cumbersome devices like 3D glasses.  It just feels less awkward to achieve the same effect by walking into a room and experiencing those same visuals.  And I understand that position.  Referring back to the “Equinox” episodes, even one of the Equinox crew referred to the VR headset as a “poor man’s holodeck.”

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BeeGee
3 years ago

“The Thaw” is another episode featuring VR. And when the EMH appears in the simulation, it’s only explained as a “miracle of technology.”

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@60/garreth: “But people don’t like putting on/wearing cumbersome devices like 3D glasses.”

Who says it has to be cumbersome? It’s centuries in the future. It could be as lightweight as my own eyeglasses. Heck, it could be like one of those blinky cortical monitor gadgets that we sometimes see Trek doctors affix to people’s temples.

 

“It just feels less awkward to achieve the same effect by walking into a room and experiencing those same visuals.”

Which is not a good enough reason to expend the resources for it on a military vessel when there’s a simpler, less energy-intensive way to do the same thing.

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3 years ago

I think a Star Trek holodeck would be superior to VR in a number of ways, but that may be due to a bias for the physical world.

Voyager’s done dying in VR means dying in real life, haven’t they?

garreth
3 years ago

@63/noblehunter: Yes, in “The Thaw”, so Voyager had that idea before The Matrix.

@62/CLB: The starships of the 24th century, particularly the Galaxy Class, felt more like luxury liners than military vessels, what with the abundance of families and spacious and plush rooms.  It fits Roddenberry’s ethos that he would have large rooms for the holdecks that weren’t space efficient when you compare them to the practicality of VR headsets.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@63/noblehunter: I wasn’t trying to start a “which is better” argument. I was saying that if TNG had come along a few years later, or if its creators had been more up to speed on cutting-edge concepts, they might never have imagined a system as cumbersome as holodecks in the first place but might instead have gone with a simpler VR-based system of the sort that was already being depicted in fiction like William Gibson’s novel Neuromancer. They might not have reinvented the wheel if they’d known about the existing option that was already out there.

 

@64/garreth: Oh, come on, The Matrix did not invent virtual reality. It didn’t even invent the term “Matrix” for a virtual reality — it was beaten to that by William Gibson’s Neuromancer in 1984 (the seminal cyberpunk novel and a hugely important influence on The Matrix) and by Doctor Who: “The Deadly Assassin” in 1976.

garreth
3 years ago

@65/CLB: Lol!  That just gave me a good laugh.  Beg your forgiveness, but I’m admittedly not the most aware of what ideas originated first in sci-fi literature or sci-fi shows pre-1987 not counting ST: TOS.  Therefore, I mentioned The Matrix because it looms large in the public consciousness.  The Matrix 4, coming to a theater near you December 22, 2021! ;)

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@66/garreth: Well, as a general rule, you can always safely assume that any idea you see in film or television science fiction was already around in prose fiction at least a decade or two earlier. Film and TV rarely innovate SF concepts; they distill and popularize them.

Heck, the earliest depiction of virtual reality I can think of is in Arthur C. Clarke’s novel The City and the Stars from 1956. It opened with a rather prophetic sequence of a group of teenagers participating in an immersive virtual role-playing game from their respective homes.

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3 years ago

In Roddenberry’s novelization of TMP, he had Kirk receive an immersive message via a cranial implant.  No glasses necessary.  Just link everyone into the same virtual world and no glasses or holodecks required.  You could even stimulate the brain with inputs that make you believe you’re smelling the environment, something I don’t recall holodecks doing (althing I may be wrong).    Why have glasses or a blinky thing on your temple when you can provide input directly into the brain?

 

garreth
3 years ago

@67/CLB: Have you ever considered auditioning for Jeopardy!?

 

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3 years ago

@53/CLB: Okay, well now you’re just talking in the abstract instead of addressing the point. Yes, it makes little sense for holodecks to need an easily disabled feature to stop them killing the users. Just like it makes little sense for the captain to personally beam into a dangerous situation with most of the senior officers on a regular basis. But if you’re going to criticise a specific episode for doing that, that’s the equivalent of going to your favourite restaurant, ordering something you know you don’t like and then complaining that you still don’t like it. You didn’t even criticise the holodeck safeties in general, just that bullets can cause the same damage as visible objects.

No doubt you’ll focus on this and claim greater knowledge (which you may well have, because computing is one of many things I’m not an expert on, like bullets), but it seems possible that, in computing terms, it’s easier to just have the bullet as part of the simulation and have it behave like a bullet except on people, than to calculate what a bullet would do if it was there and simulate the effect.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@70/cap-mjb: “Okay, well now you’re just talking in the abstract instead of addressing the point.”

No, I’m saying that I already thought it was a stupid idea when “The Big Goodbye” first did it back in 1987. I complained about it then, and I was annoyed when they repeated it here 13 years later. That is not “abstract” — it was my real-life experience as a television viewer being annoyed by an implausible plot point. The purpose of fiction is to entertain its audience, so whether or not a viewer is satisfied is not an abstract question, but a concrete one. Abstractions are things that don’t exist. You’re the one being abstract by talking solely in terms of the imaginary continuity of the fiction.

 

” it seems possible that, in computing terms, it’s easier to just have the bullet as part of the simulation and have it behave like a bullet except on people, than to calculate what a bullet would do if it was there and simulate the effect.”

First of all, that’s not the case at all. In terms of the raw numerical calculations, yes, the computer would need to simulate the trajectory and impact effects of the bullet; but there’s absolutely no reason why it would then have to generate a “solid” force field construct to represent the bullet when the pure mathematics would tell it everything it needed to know. You can see this all the time in computer simulations — look at any behind-the-scenes video of digital visual effects in movies or TV, where they selectively add and remove parts of the animation so you can see the different layers. Every version of the image is computed from the same calculations, but the animators choose which parts of the calculation to render visually and which to leave invisible. It would be just as easy for a holodeck to calculate and simulate every physical effect of a bullet without needing to render the bullet itself. Even if there were some species whose visual perceptions were so accelerated that it would be possible for them to see the bullet in flight, then the holodeck could project it as a purely visual image without force-field solidity. There’s just no reason whatsoever to go to the additional trouble of making it solid.

Second, even if it were somehow harder to do it without the bullet (which it wouldn’t be), any remotely sane approach to safety design would require doing it anyway. It would be easier to build cars without seatbelts and airbags, but obviously that’s no excuse for neglecting safety.

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3 years ago

@71/CLB: “Abstractions are things that don’t exist. You’re the one being abstract by talking solely in terms of the imaginary continuity of the fiction.”

You compared it to getting some bad food in a restaurant and having the right to complain about it. Continuity of fiction isn’t imaginary, it’s a choice by the creators of said fiction. Having written the holodeck one way for over a decade, they’re not suddenly going to change it because you complain enough, any more than a chef is suddenly going to change the recipe he’s used for over a decade because you think the food should be cooked a different way. Obviously you have the right to not like the choices the show makes and voice that opinion. But that doesn’t mean the episode has got the holodeck “wrong” because it treats it the same way every other episode treats it (not just “The Big Goodbye”, but also “A Fistful of Datas”, “Our Man Bashir”, the film First Contact and probably some others as well).

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3 years ago

The holodecks were a cool idea, like the transporter. Having them so accident prone was a mistake. Too many holodecks disasters you begin to wonder why they use them. Too many crazy transporter accidents you start to side with Dr. McCoy!

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@72/cap-mjb: “Continuity of fiction isn’t imaginary, it’s a choice by the creators of said fiction.”

Uhh… That’s what “imaginary” literally means.

 

“Having written the holodeck one way for over a decade, they’re not suddenly going to change it because you complain enough”

I just told you — I complained the first time. My point is that I had this objection all along, starting in 1987. So by your own logic, I shouldn’t have to change my opinion a decade or three later.

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3 years ago

74/CLB: “Uhh… That’s what “imaginary” literally means.”

If someone’s opinion isn’t imaginary, then neither is someone’s creative decision.

“I just told you — I complained the first time.”

And I just told you, that doesn’t mean holodecks are going to suddenly work the way you want them to.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@75/cap-mjb: Creating and imagining are the same thing. They are literally synonyms. Fiction is imaginary. Its contents are not objective fact; as you say, they are the decisions of its creators. And we are allowed to criticize other people’s decisions when we think they were made poorly.

“that doesn’t mean holodecks are going to suddenly work the way you want them to.”

Straw man. I never said I expected them to. I said I wish they’d never used that stupid trope in the first place.

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3 years ago

Star Trek has never managed to come up with concrete rules for pretty much anything.  And it’s not just tech, look at the PD as an example.

No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilizations.” – Bread and Circuses.  Note that they don’t put any qualifiers on these.  Now think how many times they interfered with the social development of a planet.

“A star captain’s most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive.” – The Omega Glory.  But killing the entire population of a planet that didn’t want you there in the first place is tickity boo.

The Immunity Syndrome allows action to be taken to protect planets from natural disaster.  Pen Pals states that they cannot.

Star Trek has ALWAYS changed the rules in order to tell a specific story.

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3 years ago

@76/CLB: I think the crux of this conversation is that I was arguing that holodeck safety protocols not stopping a holographic bullet from damaging a non-living target is consistent with how they’re portrayed, and you’re arguing that holographic guns shouldn’t be firing holographic bullets in the first place, which aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive but have resulted in lots of “Well, they do”/“Well, they shouldn’t.” We should perhaps leave it there.

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KatFisher
3 years ago

Well one argument for holodecks over virtual reality glasses (or implants or what have you) is physical health.  You would get a lot more exercise from running around a holodeck than sitting in your chair imagining stuff.  One would think on a starship you would get enough sitting around and could use all the physical exercise you could get.   

garreth
3 years ago

@79/KatFisher: That is a good argument and fits in with Gene Roddenberry’s utopian view of humanity in the future where we continue to perfect ourselves – part of that is being directly and physically engaged in the world around us and sitting down and being plugged into VR implants/headsets as we become sedentary slobs would be the nightmare/Mirror Universe version of his vision.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@79/KatFisher: That’s true, of course, but again, I’m not arguing whether one or the other is better; I’m just saying that if the timing had been different, it’s conceivable that the creators of TNG would’ve had the idea to use VR instead of inventing the holodeck concept, in which case the evolution of the franchise would’ve been quite different. After all, a ton of other science fiction films and shows have used VR in the past several decades, so TNG is kind of the odd one out in that it doesn’t use the same idea everyone else uses. So that’s kind of weird if you think about it. It’s probably a function of when TNG came along, while portrayals of VR in the mass media were still in the nascent stage and hadn’t become as ubiquitous as they were by the turn of the century.

Really, though, the concept of holographic entertainment in Trek significantly predates TNG. And I’m not just talking about the holographic rec room in the animated series’s “The Practical Joker.” That was the first onscreen depiction of the concept in Trek (though TNG’s makers ignored or were unaware of it, since they treated holodecks as a novelty in “Encounter at Farpoint”), but the first mention of the idea in a Trek context was in 1968’s The Making of Star Trek, which asserted that the Enterprise‘s recreation complex had holographic chambers that could be used to view immersive 3D movies or lifelike recorded “letters” from loved ones back home. The book was written with the cooperation of the production staff, so presumably the makers of TOS had that idea, making me wonder why they never used it. It would’ve been easy to simulate holograms the same way TNG did, by doing a simple dissolve or jump cut and have an actor appear in the shot, or have a “virtual” location materialize around the actors, not unlike how the Talosian illusions were shown in “The Cage.” Perhaps they just never found the right story. Or maybe they thought it would be too difficult to explain to the audience.

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3 years ago

@@@@@ 81 – “After all, a ton of other science fiction films and shows have used VR in the past several decades, so TNG is kind of the odd one out in that it doesn’t use the same idea everyone else uses”

A science fiction show that doesn’t do something the same as the others seems to me like a good thing.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@82: Not every observation is a value judgment. I don’t care whether it’s “good” or “bad.” I’m just saying it’s interesting to consider what might have been.

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3 years ago

@83 – Even with a holodeck there’s nothing stopping someone from using VG glasses in Trek.  By the same token, there’s noting stopping someone from having such a device hardwired into their brain.  If geordi can have a visor hard wired, why not a VR rig?

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Jeremy Erman
3 years ago

@81/ChristopherLBennett – I recall books about STAR TREK in the early days of THE NEXT GENERATION referring to the holodeck-like room on the animated series, and that Roddenberry had long had the idea for the holodeck but hadn’t been able to implement it until THE NEXT GENERATION

A lot of ideas that were impractical on the original live-action STAR TREK made it into the animated series, particularly including more non-humanoid aliens. Roddenberry seems to have continued this push in the first two seasons of THE NEXT GENERATION, but ironically, as he slowly lost control of the series–and the overall writing improved–this was one of the things that was lost–suddenly most aliens looked like humans with funny noses or foreheads, and alien species that looked truly different or had a unique twist to their culture were rarer. Or so it seems to me.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@85/Jeremy: That may be true behind the scenes, but I’m talking about what actually ended up onscreen. In “Encounter at Farpoint,” Riker was amazed by the holodeck and needed it explained to him, as if he’d never seen one before. The show treated it as a recent invention, ignoring “The Practical Joker.”

Of course, later Trek contradicted this right back, e.g. VGR: “Once Upon a Time” establishing that Janeway had played Flotter and Trevis holoprograms in childhood, and Enterprise and Discovery establishing that some holographic technology was in use as early as the 22nd century.

 

“Roddenberry seems to have continued this push in the first two seasons of THE NEXT GENERATION, but ironically, as he slowly lost control of the series–and the overall writing improved–this was one of the things that was lost–suddenly most aliens looked like humans with funny noses or foreheads, and alien species that looked truly different or had a unique twist to their culture were rarer. Or so it seems to me.”

My understanding is that it was Roddenberry’s own insistence that the aliens should all have something recognizably human about them. In his view, Star Trek was a grand philosophical allegory about humanity, and all its “alien” characters were just symbols for aspects of human nature, so he wanted their humanity to be evident.

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Geekpride
3 years ago

Petition to change the: “There’s coffee in that nebula!” section to the “There’s nookie in that holodeck!” section.

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Kate
3 years ago

@20, the main themes of The Faerie Queene may have been the virtues and religion and politics and such because it was a story in disguise about Elizabeth I, but it was certainly populated with wizards, witches, dragons, monsters, and yes, the Faerie Queene herself, Gloriana, in order to tell that story.  It is a fantasy, one that reflected upon the real world at the time, much like many fantasies written today do.

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Robert Carnegie
3 years ago

About holodeck guns, at risk of waking a dead discussion, not to mention polishing a travesty here, there’s some previous evidence that people in the future don’t understand guns that go bang and translate a projectile towards a target.  So the simulations are meant to be safe but just aren’t.  They are too physically realistic.

Please don’t bury me under examples of the Voyagers knowing firearms pretty well actually.  ;-)

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@89/Robert: Sorry, but that’s contradictory. In order to program a holodeck to accurately simulate a bullet traveling toward and hitting a target, the programmers would need a complete understanding of the physics and mechanics of the process. If they somehow lacked that understanding, they probably wouldn’t go to the trouble of simulating the bullets and the guns would be harmless even without safeties.

I mean, that’s the whole point. Nobody can see the bullet in flight anyway, so it adds nothing to the recreational experience beyond needless danger, so there’s no reason to bother simulating it at all. It’s a case of too much accurate detail rather than too little.

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3 years ago

Paris seems aware of the danger when a hologram with a gun is pointing it at the exposed computer panel in the holodeck, but doesn’t think to yell “freeze program” until after the gun is fired. I guess if he’d been smarter, the episode would’ve been shorter.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@91/Quasarmodo: Nothing about this episode is smart.

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3 years ago

@67/CLB: “Heck, the earliest depiction of virtual reality I can think of is in Arthur C. Clarke’s novel The City and the Stars from 1956.”

The Ray Bradbury story, “The Veldt,” was first published in The Saturday Evening Post on September 23, 1950, and it’s very much a VR story. It was later republished in the Bradbury collection, The Illustrated Man (which is where I discovered it as a child).

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@93/terracinque: “The Veldt” is more like a holodeck or The Mandalorian‘s filming “volume” with projected images on the walls. The City and the Stars is proper VR, a simulated sensory experience perceived directly in the brain while the user just lies there. Plus, as I said, it predicts multiplayer computer gaming.

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3 years ago

@94/CLB:

If you’ve read all of “The Veldt,” you know it’s more than just projected images on the walls.

ChristopherLBennett
3 years ago

@95/terracinque: “Walls, Lydia, remember: crystal walls, that’s all they are. Oh, they look real, I must admit — Africa in your parlor — but it’s all dimensional, superreactionary, supersensitive color film and mental tape film behind glass screens. It’s all odorophonics and sonics, Lydia.”

https://repositorio.ufsc.br/bitstream/handle/123456789/163728/The%20Veldt%20-%20Ray%20Bradbury.pdf

So yes, nominally, as far as the technology was intended to function, the images, however volumetric and convincing, do explicitly exist entirely in the walls. What happens beyond the walls as the story develops is a matter of Bradbury’s magical realism, or just surrealism, and beyond the purview of a technological discussion.

The point is that the Hadleys’ nursery is a live 3D volume perceived with the naked eye, which is more just an immersive environment than virtual reality in the stricter sense of a simulation projected into the senses through some kind of headset or haptic interface, or through direct brain stimulation as in The City and the Stars. (Clarke describes it as a technologically induced, shared “dream.”)

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3 years ago

Not content with patronising Native Americans it seems Voyager decide they would do the same to the Irish.  These Fair Haven episodes were absolutely cringe inducing, I dread to think what Colm Meany must have thought if he was watching, I firmly believe if this idea had been pitched to DS9 he would point blank have refused to do it. 

 

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David Pirtle
3 years ago

This is perhaps my least-favorite Star Trek episode of all time. It insults my intelligence. I can’t imagine how it got made. 

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2 years ago

Holodeck episodes have a bad reputation, but the two “Fair Haven” stories are the only ones, in my opinion, that actually cross over into just being straight up bad. Even “Fistful of Datas” has Troi as a cowboy and a fun subplot outside of the holodeck.