It’s time to swear our love fealty with a Sacred Oath Rod on this week’s excellent episode.
(These reviews might contain some minor spoilers for the Wheel of Time book series. Please note that the comment section may also contain spoilers for those unfamiliar with the book series.)
Summary
“The Flame of Tar Valon” opens in a fishing hut by a river, where Berden Sanche (Peter De Jersey) wakes his daughter Siuan (Keira Chansa) to go out fishing. Berden, who has only one hand, struggles to untie a knotted line until Siuan channels, using the One Power to free the tangle. Returning to shore, they find their hut burned to the ground and the Dragon’s Fang scrawled on the rubble. Berden decides to send Siuan to the White Tower, since it isn’t safe in Tear for girls like her.
Moiraine, Alanna, and Liandrin stand in the Hall of the Tower, surrounded by the leaders for the Ajahs. Leane (Jennifer Cheon Garcia) announces the Amyrlin Seat, a grown Siuan (Sophie Okonedo). Servants bring Logain to her. Siuan isn’t fooled by his attempts to bait her into killing him, and informs him that he will live out his days held up as an example to other False Dragons and men who dare to channel.
Alanna and Moiraine stick up for Liandrin’s decision to gentle Logain, and the Amyrlin reminds them that their laws exist to protect their people from the Aes Sedai, not the other way around. She blames Liandrin, which prompts Liandrin to bring up Nynaeve. When Siuan questions Moiraine as to the purpose of her travels, she refuses to answer. Siuan commands Moiraine to kneel and kiss the floor before her, then dismisses her to wait while Siuan decides her penance.
Moiraine secretly observes Loial and Nynaeve leaving Mat’s room. Lan and Moiraine go in; Rand is surprised that Moiraine is alive, but draws his sword to defend Mat from gentling. He is disarmed by Lan. Moiraine stops Mat from stabbing her with the ruby dagger using the One Power, then removes the shadow from inside him and channels it back into the dagger. Rand thanks her for taking on that evil for Mat, and they discuss the fact that this doesn’t necessarily mean that Mat isn’t the Dragon. Nynaeve and Loial return, and Moiraine upbraids Nynaeve for not telling her as soon as she found Mat.
Buy the Book
The Eye of the World: Book One of The Wheel of Time
Moiraine meets Maigan (Sandy McDade) in a steam room. Maigan claims that Siuan is losing her grip, and she knows about Moiraine sinking Taren Ferry. She tells Moiraine that they owe Siuan their protection and loyalty, and promises to intervene on Moiraine’s behalf. She also tells Moiraine that she is needed in the Tower, permanently. An informant in the Yellow Ajah leads Moiraine to where Perrin is recovering from his injuries. She assures Egwene that she knows Rand and Mat are alive, and Egwene returns Valda’s collection of rings to Moiraine. Egwene tells Moiraine about Perrin’s eyes and his connection to the wolves.
That night, Lan comes to Moiraine’s room, concerned because she masked their Bond. He doesn’t think she is safe in the Tower, but she tells him his first priority has to be protecting their friends from the Two Rivers. She uses the Power to open a secret doorway through a painting on her wall, and steps through into a room that looks like a fishing hut, where Siuan is working with twine.
Siuan complains about the display Moiraine forced her to put on in the hall, and about the risks Moiraine takes on. She reminds Moiraine that the Amyrlin is supposed to remain neutral, with no life or love of her own, only the seat. Moiraine points out that they have never followed the rules, and they kiss. Later they lounge in bed together, and Moiraine tells Siuan that she found five potential Dragons in the same village. She suggests bringing the other sisters into their secret, but Siuan reminds her that they’ll be stilled if any other sister finds out what they’re doing. Siuan says that she has been dreaming of the Dark One at the Eye of the World. She tells Moiraine to take all five to the Eye to defeat the Dark One while he’s still weak. Moiraine tells Siuan that she must sentence her to exile, and they bemoan the fact that they never have more time together.
Moiraine reunites Egwene and Nynaeve in the Hall of the Tower, then brings them to see Siuan. Egwene is respectful and Nynaeve is prickly, and Siuan tells them that the Wheel doesn’t care what they want, and that the fate of everyone rests on them. The Last Battle is coming.
Moiraine is sentenced to exile in the Hall, and commanded to swear obedience to the punishment and to the Amyrlin Seat on the Sacred Oath Rod. Moiraine swears, but specifically names Siuan, not the Seat, in her oath. The other Aes Sedai turn their backs to her as she exits the Hall and leaves the Tower. Outside the city, she meets with Loial in front of a huge stone structure as the Two Rivers folk and Lan ride up. Everyone greets each other, and Moiraine explains what is at stake—that they are going to travel the Ways to reach the Eye of the World, where one of them will face the Dark One and finish what the Last Dragon started. She channels, opening a dark doorway in the stone structure. Everyone steps in except Mat. As the doorway closes, everyone calls to him to hurry, but he only stands and watches.
Analysis
This is a particularly difficult episode to recap because there is both a great deal of plot information as well as a lot of character work, especially for Moiraine. It’s also an absolute feast for the senses—I especially love the architecture of the Tower and the landscape around the river where Siuan grew up. Her theme music is absolutely beautiful as well.
As with the last episode, “The Flame of Tar Valon” is more focused on conversations between characters than action or battles. It shows some of the intricacies of White Tower politics with the introduction of Maigan and the role of the Amyrlin as both a kind of military leader as well as an almost spiritual figurehead, mimicking the structure of catholic nunneries right down to the way the Aes Sedai call each other sisters, the Amyrlin is “Mother” and they are her “Daughters.”
Siuan is an incredible character and beautifully introduced. Her background being so similar to Nynaeve and Egwene’s helps the audience hook into her immediately, and the performances by De Jerse and Chansa are particularly moving. Okonedo brings both a power and gravitas as well as a warmth and vulnerability to Siuan that is apparent in every scene, even before we learn about her true relationship to Moiraine. We see immediately why she is the Amyrlin when she so easily sees through Logain’s attempts to bait her into having him exiled.
On the other hand, Siuan seems to let Liandrin bait her very effectively. Liandrin’s reaction to being told that she will receive penance is like a childish teenager, and she immediately deflects by throwing Moiraine under the bus in a very transparent way. It seems that Siuan could have put off the public confrontation with Moiraine by pointing this out, but probably feared to do so because of the danger of appearing to show favoritism. The danger is real; given that Siuan was once a Blue, her enemies will no doubt be alert for any signs that she might favor her old Ajah—as Liandrin says during her accusation. What’s more, Siuan isn’t just hiding her personal relationship to Moiraine but also their partnership in hunting for the Dragon Reborn. When they are talking together she reminds Moiraine that the price for being found out will be stilling—being cut off from the One Power the way men are when they are “gentled.”
Pike and Okonedo do an incredible job in every one of their scenes together, and the reveal that Moiraine and Siuan are in a romantic relationship is an important moment of queer representation—they are not only gay women but middle-aged gay women. This also redresses a deep flaw in the books; Moiraine and Siuan are shown to have a very close, important relationship in the novels, especially the prequel New Spring, but their sexual relationship is treated in a homophobic way within the narrative; they do have a sexual relationship while they are students at the White Tower, but they are never said to be in love with each other. Directly after we learn about their previous sexual relationship, the narration goes very out of its way to have both of them reflect at length on their attraction to men, their desire to kiss men, etc.
The claim that same-sex relationships only exist as a poor substitute to heterosexual ones is often leveled at gay and queer people, and it’s something that I myself experienced when I fell in love with my college roommate. Siuan and Moiraine’s connection to each other was clearly deep and profound, even formulative of their characters and yes, platonic friendships can be all of that, as Moiraine and Lan’s partnership is. But the presentation of the “pillow friends” concept is a dig leveled at Moiraine by another Aes Sedai, and the way the narrative hurries to assure the reader that they are not actually gay is both obvious and painful for a queer reader. The Wheel of Time has redressed this issue here, and given two very excellent characters their due in a beautiful and satisfying way. The tragedy of their relationship is that duty keeps them apart, and it gives a beautiful weight to Siuan’s speech to Nynaeve and Egwene about how the Wheel doesn’t care about their youth or their fears, or what they want for their lives. No one knows the burden of duty more than Siuan and Moiraine, and there is such incredible pride in Moiraine’s eyes as she listens to Siuan speak.
And then, of course, there is the swearing on the Oath Rod, which basically comes across as a very emotionally fraught wedding ceremony, with Moiraine literally saying the words “to honor and obey” and then swearing her allegiance not to the Amyrlin Seat but to Siuan specifically. I have to wonder how none of the other sisters had questions about Moiraine’s alterations to the oath or the fact that Siuan had tears in her eyes while the whole thing was going down, but it’s worth it for the performance, and the perfect call back to Siuan’s forced departure from her home and her father as Moiraine speaks the same endearments he did.
The way Liandrin and Moiraine’s antagonism is presented in this episode almost seems to be implying that there was something romantic between them as well, or at least a friendship. She refers to Moiraine at one point as “old friend” which could be sarcasm, but is also reminiscent of Alanna using the same endearment. There is definitely something personal, not just professional, in her hatred of Moiraine, and I’m interested in learning more about it.
Liandrin also tells us that “the purpose of all Blues is to gather secrets and discover danger before it strikes” at the Aes Sedai and the Amyrlin. This is a slight streamlining of the way the Ajahs work in the books, and it is a very effective one. There is a deep dramatic irony in knowing that Moiraine and Siuan, a Blue and a former Blue, are doing exactly that, but the secrets are so deep and so dangerous that not even other Blues can know about it. Yet there is no greater secret than the identity of the Dragon, and no bigger danger than the Dark One’s attempts to find them. The gravity of the situation is driven home by the fact that the prophecies say that the Dragon will either defeat the Dark One or join him. Siuan is willing to sentence four innocent young villagers to death in order to send the Dragon to stop the Dark One. And Moiraine is willing to kill the Dragon herself rather than let them turn to the Darkness.
The character of Loial doesn’t feel like he is being given his due, and I imagine that fans who haven’t read the books might be confused as to why he is needed on this journey. In the novels, the Ways belonged to the Ogier and were built for them by the Aes Sedai. But Moiraine doesn’t need Loial to open the Ways for her as she did in the books, so one wonders what his role is here—if he is needed to guide them through the Ways at all, or if perhaps the show will be giving him an entirely different purpose. Whatever happens, I hope we get to know the character better soon.
The show is doing some very interesting things with Mat. I still wish that he had been given a more lighthearted side, as a compliment and contrast to the “darkness inside him” as Moiraine puts it. One wonders the cost of his refusal to enter the Ways with the others, and Moiraine’s reminder that the prophecies say that the Dragon might join the Dark One seem particularly important where Mat is concerned. None of the others seem likely to choose that path, though of course many things can change over the course of the story.
Lan and Moiraine’s relationship continues to be a focus in this episode, though in slightly subtler ways. He has clearly been keeping an eye on Nynaeve, Rand, and Mat while Moiraine has been busy with Aes Sedai business. He offers to stand with her in the Hall while she is sentenced. And he clearly not only knows about her relationship with Siuan but actively supports it—he even tells Moiraine to give Siuan his love, and stands guard all night outside her room so that no one will discover she’s not in there.
Interesting Moments and Easter Eggs
- “The Flame of Tar Valon” is the title of Chapter 1 of The Great Hunt
- There is something very profound about the way Siuan’s official titles (The Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat) are contrasted with the titles her father gives her (Daughter of the river, clever as a pike, strong as the tides).
- Siuan tells Logain that he will be studied until he loses himself entirely to the madness. She doesn’t seem to be talking about the grief that a gentled man experiences that makes him stop wanting to live, but rather about the madness that Logain is already suffering from because he is a man who channeled. This is interesting because the madness comes from interacting with the Power, so ostensibly he should no longer be exposed to the Dark One’s corruption now that he can no longer channel.
- When Nynaeve and Lan come to meet Egwene and Moiraine in the Hall, Nynaeve is talking to Lan. She tells him “If you can’t lead the world from a room built of wood and dirt, how can you call yourself a leader?” This could be a reference to Lan’s background, or perhaps to what will be demanded of whoever turns out to be the Dragon. It also applies to her, as someone of humble birth, and to Siuan.
- Lan being salty: “It’s nice to see you too,” when Rand focused on his surprise over seeing Moiraine alive.
- Egwene tells Moiraine that Valda won’t hurt any more of her sisters, but I won’t believe he’s dead until we see a body.
- Liandrin is paying secret visits to a man in Northharbor. Moiraine seems to think it’s a romantic visit, but there could be another explanation.
- The collar of Siuan’s fabulous gown has pale stripes in all the Ajah colors.
- All the little details between Moiraine and Siuan that feel so much like a real relationship: Moiraine admiring Siuan’s new tattoos. Siuan hating being called Mother. The way Siuan knows when Moiraine is lashing out because she’s stressed, and calls her “little puffer fish.” The way they both make each other laugh.
- I’m not even going to start on the “On your knees” reversal because it’s too good—and too hot—for words.
- Favorite Quote: “Siuan Sanche waits for only one woman. And it isn’t you.”
- Runner up: “If Wisdom is the title you claim, I suggest you start using some.”
- Second runner up: “Isn’t that confusing, to have the woman and the throne named the same thing?” I thought the same thing for like two books, Egwene.
Sylas K Barrett is a writer, actor, and long-time fan of epic journeys, heroes, and magic. You can find other reviews and op-eds here on Tor.com, including his ongoing Reading the Wheel of Time series, in which he reads the novels for the first time and engages in both critical analogy and a fair bit of fanboy glee.
I really enjoyed this episode, and all the character- and world-building it gave us. Hard to believe there’s only two episodes left.
I agree that it seems like Loial doesn’t have a purpose if he’s not needed to open the Ways or guide the group through. Still, I’m enjoying the bits of his character we have seen; he’s a relaxing presence among the heightened emotions of the rest of the core group.
Love this episode!
And for all the Tolkien fans out there, this gave us the moment that Peter Jackson never did: Siuan is the daughter of the river; so that means that she is destined to marry Tom Bombadil…
A coupl comments:
We know that the madness doesn’t progress once Logain is cut off, but it’s likely the sisters do not. And they undoubtedly want to give the actor some scenes every season.
Yes, the healing of the dagger seems abrupt. They probably used what they had filmed before Barney Harris left. There is certainly wiggle room to fix this in season 2, especially if Mat finds his way back to the tower.
Liandrin’s man in North harbor, at first I thought it maybe Padan Fain, since in the books Liandrin did talk with him (perhaps even freed him in TGH). Then I thought, if they are combining Liandrin character with others, there were few Aes Sedai who prepared for coup by bringing in soldiers to Tower masked as workers, so Liandrin maybe talking on this role, and thirdly Seanchan, though I hope they won’t go the route of Seanchan attacking Tar Valon itself this early in the series.
One other thing I thought of is Liandrin meeting Ishmael, high ranking Darkfriend or a Fade, but I hope that those meetings are not as clumsily made as to have regular eyes-and-ears easily find them out…
Though how did Liandrin find out about the ferry so fast is beyond me. Unless it was a DF network, but she spilled it in the open!
I didn’t like this episode as much. What spoiled it for me is the justification for and the abrupt decision to go the Eye of the World. I can just imagine Ishy from the books meeting the Ishy form the show, and the one from the books describing how he was painstakingly dropping hints and manipulating events to steer our protagonists towards the Eye, while Ishy from the show says: Oh, I just gave Siuan the dreams about the Eye.
I don’t know why any time show changes something from the books (which I am not against per se) is to dumb characters down. Siuan should be smart enough to question her dreams.
I did like the Man in North Harbor tidbit with Liandrin. It’s deliciously open to speculation.
Great character work, terrible plotting. The way they dropped the Eye of the World plot into the show…was just laughably bad, for all the reasons @5 gave. I know the show moved up stuff from later books to flesh out the world and not just have the first season be one long quest, but I think they went too far over into the character work, and has really shortchanged the main plot.
Moiraine’s switching from the Amyrlin Seat to Suian Sanche (and the bits about daughter of the river et al) were supposed to be so quiet that the Hall wouldn’t be able to hear it, only Suian. You can hear Moiraine’s voice get louder when she gets done with that part.
But they didn’t convey it very well, IMO. Her voice only gets a *bit* louder.
I have only read the first book, many years ago (though I am going to try to read the series. I about half way through a reread of Eye of the World.) so I don’t have a strong feeling about the changes to the original story.
However, I would like to say two things. First, the actors they have cast are excellent. They are displaying a depth of emotion that you don’t often see in any TV series.
Second, as a costumer myself (Cosplayer for those of you younger than 40), the costume design as been magnificent. The sense of reality and practicality from the poorest peasant (the clothes in the Two Rivers) to the highest levels of these societies (the Children of the Light and the Aes Sedai) to the non-human Ogier Loial have been excellently designed and executed. I anticipate seeing these recreated on the convention circuit for years to come.
@@.-@: Did Liandrin find out about the ferry? I thought that was Maigen.
I tried to read the books but couldn’t get past the first two. I just felt it was kind of boring and derivative of LoTR. The first couple TV episodes were also a bit boring, especially the scenes with Rand, who seems like a very bland character who speaks in tropes.
But the last few episodes the show are getting better and much more interesting. I thought this last one was amazing for Rosamund Pike, and it was cool how Elvish they made her look throughout her time in the White Tower. She is my favorite character by far.
The production quality remains high so I see myself sticking with this series to see where it goes.
So, I try my best to read this and write up my comments before I see other’s comments.
But for me this was by far the worst episode. I’ll see this season through, but my investment in the show is waning and I’m not as excited for the second season, although I also really want to see all the seeds they are dropping bear fruit.
There’s one non-book reader in our group who also hasn’t been a huge fan of the series (but her husband is a huge fan of the books and that might be influencing some of it) either – her complaints are more that it just feels very generic and shallow and she doesn’t care at all about Perrin, Rand or Mat or feel like she has any idea who they are or why she should be invested in them, and that in general it moves way too fast. I’m not sure if that reflects the average non-book reader or not.
Anyway, I’m not trying to go into this with a Comic Book Nerd style attitude of the show. My main problem with this show is that the pacing is just WAY too rushed. 8 episodes is just not enough, especially when they spend over half of those episodes bringing in things that are not even in the books. And for the record – I do NOT mind that, I actually have really enjoyed those scenes. I love pulling back the curtain and seeing what goes in this world when we’re not reading what is on the page – I really enjoyed Siuan’s ‘Minor Kidroduction’, I liked the Stepin plot in the previous episodes (I know those have gotten some flak) and I also enjoyed quite a bit seeing the ins and outs of Tower politics as I know that is really laying a lot of important groundwork and character development that has to happen but can’t be done the way it is in the book. I really liked Egwene and Nyneave’s meeting with Siuan.
And there are a lot of great tidbits here! I had a feeling they would make the subtext of Moiraine/Siuan’s relationship more overt, and I think that’s a fine choice and adds a lot of the emotional drama to their decisions (I admittedly am not THAT invested in the Thom/Gareth subplots either so I don’t mind if that means they get excised) and I do think it resolves one of the more stereotypical elements of Jordan’s writing that can stand to be updated. With the exception of wondering what on earth that ter’angreal was (I am wondering if it was intended to be TAR?) I found that scene overall pretty good and with the right level of drama/emotion/narrative stakes. (Well, there were a few other plot related things that bugged me but I’ll get to that).
The rest of it though? I still have no idea what story they are telling. I won’t say it’s a BAD story – I am sure people are enjoying it. But at least for me they really have the burden of proof to prove it is better than the story they are discarding, and for me it is not. There are so many things I am missing that I wanted to see. In their drive to skip through the story, they are giving a really shallow read of the first 2-3 books, which arguably the best ones in the series. Why the rush? Are they so eager to get to the PLOD or Andor succession crisis? It’s like they are paying the barest lip service to the story that exists because they really want to make Moiraine the main character (which – I actually think is fine for the first season, I like having her as the gudiing agent) AND preserve the mystery of ‘who is the DR???’. When in the books the story is not good because it is a mystery, but because of how this character deals with this impending doom. Not everything has to be a mystery and there are already plenty of things to theorycraft about in WoT.
So, now, to preserve this mystery they have to bend over backwards to obfuscate the plot, including introducing stuff like the 5-headed Dragon (which I’ve seen refered to as the Power Rangers Dragon) and just…undo tons of meticulous worldbuilding. I kinda like the idea of this turning not having as strong a read on the Prophecies, but I’m not sure if it’s necessarily any better or more compelling. Assumign they DO go forward with who the DR is (and I’m not even sure they will)…is anybody even going to care considering we’ve spent so little time with this character?
Other things that are bugging me:
-Conflating the Eye of the World with the Bore – huh? I mean, they might be able to still make that work, but I’m wondering if it will just no longer be untainted saidin.
-I can’t totally blame them for Mat abandoning them because it sounds like that was forced on them by the actor issues. And actually, it might be a good thing because…what I can blame them for is how anticlimactic the Dagger resolution plot was. This is supposed to be a major healing, but of course Moiraine can just do it on her own and it’s really no big deal. Like, Mat acted kind of off for a few episodes and that was it. This is supposed to be a multi book plot that has serious repercussions for Mat (holes in his memory, etc). Now, I do have a feeling they might still lean into this because we know Fain is sneaking around and Moiraine does mention that he may still have a tie to the Dagger. So maybe there still will be some things going on with Fain stealing the Dagger and continued implications. To be clear, I certainly don’t expect them to drag on the dagger plot as long as it did in the books but it felt like they just wanted to get it over with, check the box and move on.
-At any rate, is Mat still going to be there when they find the Horn? Or at any rate he needs to be there for Falme (or the equivalent). They ARE at least hinting at the Seanchan (missing ships off thecoast)! Anyway, perhaps this is something that will be going on while he’s apart from the group since I don’t think he actually needs to be at the EOTW, and this will continue to impact Mat’s character.
I just get the impression from some of these reviews that the people involved don’t even really LIKE Wheel of Time and just see a bunch of problematic things they want to fix and improve, but don’t feel any actual love for the material. They just see a checklist of things to add in or some Easter egg bones to throw to the fans, but are more excited about adding their own improvements and spin to it. Sometimes this does work, but a lot of it is…well, it’s a choice as one of my more diplomatic friends worded it, haha.
-I absolutely hate what they did with the Waygates. I know it’s a really small, dumb thing, but in a way it makes me angrier because of that. There was no plot relevant reason to completely change how it looks and works. How are Ogier supposed to even use them if you need channeling? What is Loial even there for? How did the Trollocs use them? It just feels like another cheap way to make Moriaine the main character that undercuts the worldbuilding. (We already know Moiraine is awesome!)
-Also, the Oath swearing scene was so awful. Not because of the emotion behind it and the dramatic irony of knowing what this really means for Siuan and Moiraine. There were some really good parts there – some good facial expressions, the little hidden finger touch. HOWEVER – first of all, the fact that a fourth oath is being sworn is supposed to be a HUGE deal. THis is actually a big plot point in future books when Elaida tries to do this. It also invalidates the First Oath because the First Oath is supposed to make all vows binding anyway. ALSO – for two supposedly master manipulators and politicians of a stoic, composed order they were acting like complete idiots. I could totally see a few hidden, meaningful glances, but having them moon at each other while Moiraine swears her vows with romantic/personal endearments? This is supposed to hide their plans? I get that it was dramatic and emotional and well acted but it made absolutely zero sense in the context of the story and setting.
-Very random nitpick, but one thing that is an unfortunate side effect of the Siuan/Moiraine relationship being more obvious is that in some ways it undercuts the beautiful platonic nature of Lan and Moiraine’s relationship because it just kind of becomes ‘oh, it’s because she’s a lesbian’. I know at least some people have the impression the Aes Sedai/Warder relationship is almost always sexual and that that’s the norm (although I do think with Stepin and Karene it was also portrayed as platonic, but viewers might not catch that). I don’t think that’s the intent and it’s always a trade off with how you depict stuff like that. Especially as all the main characters do end up with romantic Warder relationships. I don’t think that’s a reason for them NOT to have done that, but just a thought that occurred to me.
Anyway, tldr, I’ll still watch the show and I love getting a chance to see all the stuff, I am just barely recognizing it as the story I spent so many hours analyizing and discussing. I love that it has gotten Wheel of Time as something that is an active discussion topic though! I don’t want to give the impression that people shouldn’t enjoy it, I know plenty of book fans are also enjoying it, but it’s just not giving me the stuff I wanted to see. There’s an advantage to that – it means I don’t know what is going to happen. I can still enjoy it as its own thing, but there are still things I miss. It will really be interesting to see how they bring a lot of this stuff together in the last two episodes. I would love if they could get at least 10 episode seasons to not feel so rushed.
@8 – I like to hear your perspective.
The funny thing is the one non-book reader in our group went to college for costume design (I don’t know what her actual degree is in) and every episode she rants about how horrible the costume design is and how it belongs in an amateur production. Her main argument is that it doesn’t actually tell you anything about culture and she hates the monochromatic Aes Sedai look which she feels is just lazy storytelling (like they just copy/pasted costumes in different colors) and hates that the color tones are all the same.
Which is funny because for all my plotting complaints, I love the costumes, and while I get that the Aes Sedai are supposed to be more varied (and in fact the obsession with wearing only our Ajah color is another thing that Elaida is suppoed to foster), I kinda get the visual shorthand since we don’t get pages and pages of descriptions of embroidery/shawl fringes (although I’m a little peeved that there are no shawls, even though they keep the phrase ‘raised to the Shawl’). And I actually love the colors and I do think there are lots of little different details in the costumes and hairstyles (that I DO recognize from the books, haha) of the different Sitters.
Like, Moiraine’s dress is so great – I love everything about it. It’s beautiful but also a little militaristic and powerful, I love the silhouette it makes with the earrings and the up do (but it also looks great with her hair down). I love it. I also really love jewel tones though, and I do think the imagery of the Sisters in the white Tower is very visually striking from a cinematography point of view.
As I’ve said twice now, the only way to enjoy this series is to let go of any expectations based on the book because we’ve drifted so far from that storyline that it’s no longer relevant.
That said Sophie Okenado is indeed wonderful and well worth suspending disbelief to watch.
Can someone please explain to me what in the name of the Light was going on with Moiraine’s little trip to Tear? And I don’t mean her relationship with Suian, I am fine with them putting that front and center where the books only hinted at it.
I just don’t get he deal with the wall/picture/doorway. Was it supposed to be her using Traveling? Does she have some sort of “Illicit Unions TM Ter’angreal that allows her and Suian to meet like the Acceptron? Something else?
I probably would not be so confused about this if I were a non-book reader!
@14 – The bonus material says this is a ter’angreal that takes them to a fishing hut in Tear, which just raises all kinds of questions. Such as, how many of these ter’angreal exist? If this is the only one, why is it just being used for a booty call? Can it be used to go to the Eye instead of using the Ways? I mean, supposedly they have a subject matter “expert” to think through changes to the source, but sometimes it just smacks of cheap storytelling. Why even introduce this kind of device for a booty call when they could have just snuck through a hidden passage in the wall or something? Why go all the way to Tear?
@15 – Thanks and UGH! I haven’t looked at any of the bonus materials admittedly. I feel like it’s too cumbersome to access properly. I also think that if the show itself can’t adequately explain a thing in the actual show then, as you say, it’s a storytelling problem. Viewers shouldn’t have to go on an Easter Egg hunt to understand key components of your show/movie/book etc. That’s not how Easter Eggs work. And as a WoT fan I fully appreciate a good Easter Egg. Like the yellow herbs hanging all around the rooms where Perrin and Egwene were staying being a nice callback to the books when Nynaeve recognizes that as a sign from the Yellow’s Eyes and Ears. I actively laughed out loud when I saw that and my wife, who is a non-book reader, asked me what was funny. I told her it was too much to explain in the moment and wouldn’t matter unless she’d read the books.
And yeah, that opens up all kinds of strange and unnecessary question. As much as it would fundamentally change much of the future story if they said that Moiraine had Travelled I would have preferred that option to what they did.
long time book reader here. binge watched eps 1-6. loved & adored some & absolute hated other parts of the series. i know it has to be compressed & scenes combined but some of the stuff that was dropped or mashed together are MAJOR plot points. i know theyre hoping for 8 seasons & while some of the changes were for the better, some things werent. like skipping baelon, the only reason they went there is to meet min, theyll still met supposedly. loved nynaeve & lan lol. liked how they fleshed out logain. matter of fact, ep 4 & 6 were my faves. most of the things i didnot like was in the first episode. imo, they should not have cut out or changed as much as they did. for instance; if tam mentioned the “rider” on way to village instead of strawberries, newbies would know something’s up, hated matts parents change, no mr & mrs luhhan, they leave in day in front of everyone, moiraine didnt mention bela doesnt need reviving even tho she just did another horse, lan doesnt train boys, egwene doesnt undo braid, no creepy guy in sl, at least matt left w/ dagger lol, no boat trip for rand & matt. no bayle domon, who’s a major character. the compression of road trip of rand & matt was well done. it was a bit too long in book. but what i absolutely hated, was the whitecloak/ perrin change. its a MAJOR MAJOR plot line that he kills 2 of them cuz they kill a wolf. & wheres elyas? or morgase & caemlyn? & basel gill in tar valon now? the people rand meets that one day influence over half of the plot points of the whole series. i know its 14 books & theyre hoping for 8 seasons & yea, there is a lot that can be cut, shortened, or combined but imo, they should have used the first 2 seasons, or at least season & a half for the first book. if second season is as confusing to non book readers & book readers get more pissed by the changes, it might only go 2-3 seasons.
edited to add:
oh forgot to mention what i hated from ep 6 even tho was one of my fave episodes. wtf is going on with the waygate? it looked “wow!” but where were the leaves? at least the weave moiraine used looked a bit like a trefoil leaf. & mat?! wtf? ok ik theyre changing actors but hes supposed to go with rand, ingtar & co. hows he gonna get there? & suian supposed to have gone to fal dara (along with most of the tower esp verin) to “reprimand” moiraine & meet rand, egwene & nynaeve. she has no reason to go now. idk when/ if she’ll meet rand (if hes still even the dragon reborn), & she met the girls in her room rather than the boat down to the tower even tho she didnt mention novice/ accepted & certainly didnt try to teach anything lol. i did like siuan & moiraine together. :D
@14/@15 – The way I took it, the painting leads to a pocket dimension that only looks like a fishing hut in Tear. Last episode, when Moiraine opened the painting, it was empty, but this episode we see that the painting is occupied, signaling that Siuan is in there waiting for her, and since Siuan was the first one there, she got to dictate what the pocket dimension looked like, so she made it look like her childhood home. These ter’angreal probably come in pairs, so that 2 Aes Sedai can meet in secret.
I don’t know if that’s what’s actually happening, but that’s my headcanon.
Also, Brandon Sanderson has mentioned that he thinks of the series as a different turning of the Wheel than the one in the books, and I think that helps reconcile some of the differences between book and show. You might even extend that analogy to other series *cough*PercyJackson*cough* that seem to have irreconcilable differences.
Yes, that is exactly what I mean when I say they are trying so hard to fix things that they think need to be fixed (and I would argue Siuan/Moirane’s relationship is a good example of something that was worth fixing so I have no issue with that itself) that they just undercut the world building.
I was actually kind of hoping it was a secret TAR ter’angreal as that is at least some additional foreshadowing and will become relevant, and there is precedent for having secret dream ter’angreals. (Apparently SIuan is a Dreamer in the show instead of seeing ta’veren).
But if Travelling already exists that has huge implications.
Also, does this hut actually exist somewhere??? To me it just makes so much more sense that it’s their own little dream construct partially based on her childhood home.
@11 – you said it all… It’s tough trying to love this show. Im still hoping for a great conclusion that redeems all of the odd choices that depart from the books, but I am starting to lose hope as more and more changes occur. Amazon was counting on the millions of book lovers to be the core audience, and I don’t think the production team delivered well enough to ensure this.
@Lisamarie#11: You nailed several things. I think the problem is not lack of love for the material but lack of adequate budget . . . which leads to too-few episodes . . . which leads to too-compressed plot.
I think it’s interesting how much text (in the earlier episodes’ comments) has been devoted to the fact that “two major villains” were dark skinned . . . when we really have barely seen Fain (two minutes?) so far. And now we have a dark-skinned Amyrlin (and Egwene, Nynaeve, and Perrin are hardly lily-white Scandinavian-looking) – so I think the casting/racial debate can be put to bed, maybe?
As a faithful reader, re-reader, reader of the re-reads, etc, I went into this NOT expecting Peter Jackson style fidelity to the books. The first three episodes grew on me, then Episode 4 really drew me in, especially when Nynaeve healed everyone after Logain’s killing stroke. But this episode went further afield from Canon than I am happy with, in some major regards. Mat not joining the rest of the Two Rivers gang in the Ways is major. [Note: my viewing of it seemed to leave just a split second in which he could dive in at the start of Episode 7, but that seems unlikely.] The entirety of Book II is, really, all about Mat’s need to regain the dagger, both for himself (to be healed) and for the rest of the world. His regaining the dagger also puts him in possession of the Horn of Valere, which again, is a huge plot line for those middle books, and really, all the way to Ch. 39 of A Memory of Light. Sure, he could wind up in Shienar some other way, but why?
Another point that really bothered me was Siuane making Moraine swear to abide her exile on the Oath Rod. This is explicitly Not A Thing in the Books. Elaida’s Hunters feel bad using it to just to unswear and reswear the Three Oaths in their search for Black Ajah members. During that hunt a suggestion is made to make the objects of the investigation swear fealty to the hunters, which is (if I recall correctly) soundly rejected as almost unimaginable. Yet here it is, being done openly, in front of the Sitters. Again, why stray this far?
The third, somewhat minor point, but one to which I am particularly sensitive as a former horse owner and always horse lover: Turning the horses loose at the Waygate. Bella too? And Mandarb and Aldieb? If this series isn’t careful its going to become not “The Wheel of Time”, but “An Epic Fantasy (loosely based on other epic fantasies, among them The Wheel of Time”.) Here’s hoping they bring it back in, somehow.
I am not sure if this is a normal viewpoint, but I am a book reader who is still enjoying the show greatly. I am watching with my husband (a non-book reader), and he enjoys it as well. This episode was great for meeting Aes Sedai but weak for the Emond’s Field 5.
I agree with Lisamarie that the oath swearing was just TOO MUCH for me. Sure, it’s sweet, but it is so stupid that it makes no sense for Moiraine and Suian’s characters. I also wonder the implications of Moiraine swearing to Suian and not the Amyrlin – we know from the books that there will likely be a change. Depending on how they adapt that in the show, if Suian doesn’t make it, it seems to me that Moiraine would be exiled permanently.
I thought everything with Mat was weird as all get out this episode, but my husband looked it up and said it was because the actor never came back after the filming of this episode, so I am trying to forgive THIS strangeness of his story. Honestly, though, Mat was my least favorite of the Emond’s Fielders in the books (unpopular opinion, I know), and I have been surprised by how his character is SO different – serious, from an abusive home, just generally dour – it makes me feel guilty not liking him. On the other hand, I am still invested in Rand and think that with his limited screen time, they have actually done well showing his character. Perrin’s arc needs work in my opinion (the wolfbrother intro has been odd, I know because they want it to be shady so he can be a DR candidate – maybe we’ll meet someone to explain it in Fal Dara).
Nynaeve is just too perfect, the way she backtalks Suian is awesome. I can’t wait to see this Nynaeve go toe to toe witih the Forsaken later in the series. I think Loial will guide them in the Ways, otherwise I don’t think they would hae bothered to include him yet. I wonder if needing channelling was introduced because they will have Ishamael opening the Ways for the Shadow? I feel like it was implied he drove the Fades into Shadar Logoth in the first book, perhaps they are making him more prominent in the non dreaming world in the show since we haven’t focused as much on his dream presence.
I think they will stay with the book Dragon; personally, I think they are letting that character look so “bland” because they want to preserve the surprise for the 2 watchers who don’t know who it is. :)
Here’s hoping for a great ending to the season; I can’t wait to see the Eye of the World, and am really hoping for the Green Man!
@22
Peter Jackson style fidelity to the books????????
Wimpy Aragorn, wimpy Faramir, Frodo almost falls into Cracks, Super-Legolas, no scouring of Shire, and TAUREIL?????
And as I mentioned above, this series has what the PJ films did not: The River’s Daughter!
The painting portal/ter’angreal is perplexing, as is the Eye being conflated with Shayol Ghul, and channeling to open the Waygate. But those things don’t break the world (no pun intended) as long as the creators have accounted for the plot ramifications and deal with them another way. Moiraine knowing Traveling at this stage would be a huge plot problem, because then there’s no barrier to the party Traveling all over the continent to wherever their next objective was, and it would obviate the need to travel by land and have all the encounters & development you’re supposed to have along the way. Why chase Fain, or Rand, when you can just Travel ahead of them? It also eliminates the time it takes news to cross the land if Traveling is widely known, which reduces one of the main themes of how information mutates as it propagates.
@11 – There is no burden of proof on the showrunners to show why their story is “better” than the books. That’s an impossible task – always was. It’s an adaptation, and it was always a given that there would be many changes to film a 15-book unfilmable series. Of course we’re entitled to take issue with the changes, or not like the adaptation, but the goal of the production is financial or critical or popular success… not adherence to the original. They have to make decisions that lead to the show taking off quickly with enough people so that there will be a season 2, and then to prove that there should be a season 3, end so on. Slowing down the story to expand on the first book was never going to be in the cards. Don’t worry, I have no doubt they’ll speed the PLOD up even more down the road.
I just don’t understand the rationale for changing how the Waygate operates. It shouldn’t be a budget issue (probably similar amounts of CGI with both approaches), a secret door is cooler than another swirly-energy-thingy, it helps justify Loial’s presence, and it helps with the later books’ use of the Ways.
I assume that they released the horses because it’s too difficult to have the horses interact well with a CGI/greenscreen environment, so I’m not going to argue that decision.
I haven’t read any of the books because I prefer to read science fiction. I just want to say I love the Amazon series. I love the actors, the costumes, the story that is being told, everything except for the horses constantly nickering, neighing, squealing, etc. But that is my major complaint for almost any series or movie that has horses because all have the horses making a lot more noise than normal. I guess that’s in case we viewers don’t recognize the animals being ridden. Back to the series, it’s easy to follow and I don’t understand how anyone finds it confusing. I love that the viewer is treated as if they (we) are intelligent because that is rare.
@25 – I think there is for at least a pragmatic reason.
Obviously, a showrunner can come up with their own story that’s inspired by or takes themes from other stories and market it as an original. But when you decide to do an adaptation you are in effect banking on and taking advantage of the name recognition and existing fan base to get at least some buzz/support and justification for making it.
And when a story is already popular, I think there do have to be intentional justifications for when you depart. This doesn’t mean never depart – some of the departures have been good! Both for the medium, and just overall. But sometimes I do feel that they just kinda want to tell their own story but still take advantage of the brand, so to speak.
Of course you are right – utlimately their goal here is going to be to create a good TV show and that’s what will matter. If it’s ultra faithful but nobody watches it, then that is not a success either (and if it was faithful to the letter it likely would not be good TV). It’s a subjective line – there were things I defended in our chats, but some of it I feel tells a more shallow story than the one we could be getting. I am both enjoying it (mostly) and mourning aspects it could have been (even with an adaptation).
A few things I think are worth mentioning:
1) we haven’t yet seen a meaningful change to Loial’s role in the Ways. In Manetheren he was needed to find the Waygate, because its location was not obvious. He wasn’t needed to open it; Moiraine already knew how to do that. In Tar Valon it makes sense that he’s not needed for the finding since the Aes Sedai already know where their Waygate is. In the books he was also needed in order to navigate the Ways and I strongly suspect that will be kept in the show.
2) there are several possible explanations for how the Waygate was opened that need not interfere with other uses. My favorite, and I think the simplest, is that the Tar Valon Waygate is warded because it’s at/near Tar Valon, and deactivating/bypassing the ward is what required channeling.
3) if they’re somehow using ter’angreal for traveling, they could easily have them be paired such that you can only use one half of a pair to travel to where the other half is located. Then Moiraine and Siuan can each have a pair, with one half at their rooms in the tower and the other half in the hut, and the setup is useful for them without otherwise causing problems with the story.
@Lisamarie: I note that Moiraine *did* somewhat heal Mat in EotW — she dramatically slowed the dagger’s corruption of him and restored Mat mostly back to his original personality. Things went sideways again when Fain took the dagger from him, at which point TGH happens and latterly the full healing done in Tar Valon.
This series is getting better and better. It’s still not excellent, but I loved what they did with Siuan and Moiranie, which was the best character work so far. Lan continues to be wonderful – an improvement on the books, as I like seeing more of his softer, caring side. The costumes and sets look great and all the Aes Sedai politics made this feel like the most Wheel of Time episode so far. Too much about the first few episodes felt like a shallower Game of Thrones knockoff.
Rand is still very bland and I don’t care for this version of Mat – there wasn’t much difference between Mat before and after he was infected by Shadar Logoth. Hopefully the recasting will allow a reset to the loveable rogue he is in the books – the show could do with some more light and humour.
As a book reader, I’m generally enjoying the changes. It’s nice to not know exactly what’s going to happen and for them to tackle some of the major flaws in the novels, like queer representation. There also doesn’t feel like the same obsession the books have with binary gender politics. Am I right that the show hasn’t said there’s a male and female half to the One Power?
@28 – I hear you. I cut my teeth in TV fandom when I followed Babylon 5 as it was being produced. The showrunner, J. Michael Straczynski, was very active on message boards at the time and gave a ton of running commentary/insight into the production. It’s shocking just how much real-world issues impacted the long-term, 5-year story he had preplanned and was trying to tell. Sudden actor departures were only the beginning. Given that, I tend to want to give the producers the benefit of the doubt until I see what they do with it.
It’s just hard to know exactly what they’re planning and how they will pay off the decisions/deviations later… and until they do I’m withholding my judgment. Except to say that I’m enjoying it now, and pleased by some of the surprises, shaking my head at others.
@31 – there are some animated extras that appeared this week that you can see in Amazon Prime that flesh out the worldbuilding. They are actually very interesting! One of them is all about the male/female halves of the One Power and even names saidar and saidin. The show may not be harping on the binary structure, but it is baked into the universe itself. Except for one curious line I heard this week, being spoken about the Dragon Reborn. I think it was Moiraine who said “We don’t even know what power they will use.” Did she mean what Talents they’ll have, or did she mean which Power they will use? (I know, I know, One Power, but maybe that was a hint that sometimes the show Dragon uses saidar).
The first viewing of an episode is always jarring, but then on second view it becomes better. It’s not perfect. The pacing is almost always a problem and I know from promotional material that scenes are cut from this episode and previous ones. The transition suffers from the lack of these scenes.
But it’s still a mostly enjoyable experience. My wife, who’s a nonreader, understands and enjoys the story, and got who’s the dragon right. She said episode 1 was too slow and it opened my eyes that something more akin to the books could’ve lost many nonreaders.
It’s also a pleasure to see many nonreaders or people who quit the books early enjoy the show now. The showrunner made the right decision in changing some stuff from the first book to not make it so derivative of Lord of the rings. Aes sedai plotting is 30% of the series, and it should appear upfront. And yet, to people moaning about changes, at the end of episode 6 we’re at the same spot as the last part of book 1: in the ways, going to the eye of the world. All this detour was to show how different the series becomes later.
This is not a small gripe. They are making changes that compromise the story. Why bother “adapting” this much? The Wheel of Time is not the story of Moraine at any point in the books except the prequel. While it is loaded (overloaded?) with richly drawn characters, there is one main character and a list of first person narrators. If you don’t know who it is yet? I assure you, you know full well long before they get to Tar Valon in the novels. Moraine is never a first person narrator in the main storyline. Lan may be, much, much later. . This is Lynch’s Dune so far. Beautiful to look at, but not the story the author wrote. .
I must admit, I find this an odd complaint. I didn’t go to school for costume design. I just do it. (and won a lot of awards for it, too). I think those costumes are telling us a lot.
She seems to be focusing on the Aes Sidai. In many ways they are a pseudo, or partially, religious group. Like many such groups across many types of faith, they have different orders with different focuses. They have chosen color as the visually, distinctive difference between the orders; Ajahs. The costumes they are wearing are varying widely in design and cut, each Ajah distinct only by color. Each costume is full of intricate detail without overwhelming the design. We can infer things from each costume, but we aren’t going to know a lot because we don’t know the different cultures, at least most of them, that exist here.
They are also largely practical. The only costume which can be said to “overwhelm” the wearer, and be unwearable for most everyday tasks, is the Amerlyn Seat, Siuan in the Hall. And that costume is a ceremonial costume meant to be used in an official setting and designed to inspire awe in the viewer; which is an entirely rational thing to do. Ceremonial costume for royality and religious figures are not known for being practical for everyday wear.
Interesting that no one mentioned the issue that my daughter brought up when we watched it. And after she mentioned it, it bothers me a lot, too.
The scene at the waygate involved almost no agency by anyone other than Morraine. She shows up, and then everyone else trickles in. There is no motivation for why they showed up, or how they managed to leave Tar Valon.
It’s not The Moraine Show.
@38 I understand what you’re saying but as someone who’s only read books 1-2 she is by far the most engaging character. I assume the show runners know that too, as she’s really the only big name that was cast with a bunch of fairly unknowns. I am interested to see how the younger characters start to grow in stature. Hopefully those arcs will be exciting to watch unfold.
@30 – yes, I was wondering if that is where they were going with it. I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt as to that, at least. I wonder how they would have handled it had they actually made it to Fal Dara with Mat as intended. Ironically him staying behind might give him more opportunity to interact with the dagger/Fain.
@38: the motivation is what Siuan told Nynaeve and Egwene; presumably we’ll be finding out what exactly was said in the next two episodes, but we can infer it was similar to or based on what she discussed with Moiraine. They left Tar Valon under the guidance of Loial and Lan (separately). These things aren’t shown because they’re redundant–and possibly also due to cuts informed by scenes involving Mat (see next paragraph).
The scene at the waygate itself has several issues that are almost certainly related to the rewrite they had to do after Mat’s actor left the show between the filming episodes 6 (pre-covid) and 7/8 (about a year later). Especially when they are filing into the waygate the editing is extremely choppy and close-in, almost certainly because they had to avoid showing Mat with the rest of the cast there. It’s unfortunate that they had to meddle based on real-world events, but I think they did an acceptable job handling a tough situation.
@29:
Except there was no door. It was just two pillars with empty air between. There was no other logical means of opening a doorway other than the OP.
@35 – First person? The Wheel of Time is a limited 3rd person POV series.
@33 -Re other powers, in context, Moiraine was referring to wolfbrother powers. Egwene asked whether Perrin’s relationship with wolves means he is the DR, and she gave that answer about we don’t know what powers the DR will have – potentially including what Perrin was manifesting.
@37 – one of the Behind the Show specials focuses on costuming and identifies the various WoT cultures and their real world style/clothing inspirations. So they are thinking about clothing differentiation and consistency actively.
@42: the leaf/other mechanism for opening the gateway could easily be on the pillars. Or if they go with channeling being required, the Ogier could have ter’angreal similar to the talisman of growing capable of opening gateways (or multiple talismans and they open them). Or the pillars could be tuned to open to Ogier without channeling and otherwise require channeling. If channeling is required for non-Ogier to open the pillars, it’s not hard to have DF channelers do the waygate opening needed for the story. As one YouTuber pointed out, we do know at least one DF Aes Sedai who was in the vicinity of the Two Rivers at about the right time to have opened a gateway there if necessary.
I’m not a custome/fashion person at all but I did think the clothes looked great (aside from a few sweaters we joked look like came from LL Bean in the beginning) and had plenty of interesting and unique details. I know I’m not hard to please in that regard, though.
@44 – A leaf on the pillar? There’s no design on those pillars. Even if there was, what would the leaf mechanism do? There’s no door! It’s literally on top of a hill, with no other structure nearby. The only possible explanation is to open a doorway in the air. There’s no leaf mechanism to be had here.
“The horses would not survive in the Ways.” is Old Tongue for “We don’t have the budget to continue to use them for what’s coming up next.”
@47 – Bravo!!! Nailed it.
@Lisamarie: you may like this video analysis of the TV adaptation and why it is the way it is:
Wheel of Time adaptation
I haven’t read the books and likely won’t for a long time (I’d have to abandon the Malazan series for that), but from what I’ve read, your statement: “I just get the impression from some of these reviews that the people involved don’t even really LIKE Wheel of Time and just see a bunch of problematic things they want to fix and improve, but don’t feel any actual love for the material,” doesn’t sound true. The production and showrunner seem to be huge fans of the books. Sanderson is involved, too.
They are simply dealing with the realities and constraints of of doing an adaptation. They have 14 long novels to fit into 64 episodes: 8 episodes, 8 seasons. If book readers are unhappy with alterations now, it sounds like there will be a lot more howling in the coming years.
As a non-book reader, the baked in idea of reincarnations and resetting of timelines sounds perfect for an adaptation. Something similar was one with the show The Magicians. That story was the 39th iteration of the one told in the books. The characters had tried that many times to get it right and failed till arriving at the present. That works for me. In both shows, the books happened in their own timeline. They will always be there for anyone wanting to read that version of the story.
Meanwhile, the TV version has to stand on its own. The characters, the internal consistency… it all has to work without being hidebound to the books. So far, it’s working for me, though I’m not in love with it. In some cases, hearing what’s not being met or addressed from the books, I’m happy with what the show does. Mat spends how many volumes dealing with a dark infection tied to a dagger? That would translate to 3 seasons of TV and that sounds like a huge slog. Personally, I wouldn’t complain if plots like that got trimmed or accelerated.
I’ve heard from fans of the books that large sections of story are nearly inert and even entire novels can be skipped for lack of progression. The adaptation will do what it needs to do to keep an audience invested for the entire 64 episodes. It seems impossible to fit all of the story in otherwise.
@47,
!
@Lisamarie, “the First Oath is supposed to make all vows binding anyway” — In the books I’d always read the First Oath, in terms of its application to vows not made on the Oath Rod, as you have to mean to keep the vow, but that you can break the vow if you need to, if circumstances after you make the vow forces you to. You only have to mean to keep it when you make the vow. Whereas if it’s made on the Oath Rod, you won’t physically be able to break the vow. For instance, Moiraine makes the vow not to return to the Tower unless Siuan recalls her, if Siuan dies, a vow made on the basis of the First Oath would allow her to decide that it’s enough if the next Amyrlin recalls her, whereas she wouldn’t be able to do that if the vow was made on the Oath Rod, even if the next Amyrlin recalls her, it would still physically prevent her from returning unless she’s released from the oath because the next Amyrlin wouldn’t be Siuan. I agree that Moiraine’s vow should have been enough just resting on the basis of the First Oath, and that the Oath Rod was used kind of willy-nilly here, it’s supposed to be a huge deal, I just think there’s a substantive difference between the two situations. Maybe they just wanted to show off the Oath Rod?
I’m trying to take the show on its own terms, trying not to compare it to the books but it’s hard and I go back and forth. One thing I’ve commented on before and I’ll say again is the show is trying to create too many mysteries and everything is getting muddled. I’m okay with them not having reliable prophecies in theory, the problem I have is that makes it hard to know anything about the prophecies. In the books the prophecies need interpretation and mostly we only know what things mean after the fact but largely they serve to foreshadow later events and as a road-map for the characters, and whether you like the road-map aspect of it or not, it’s actually pretty damn reliable and the characters trust it. The question in the first book has always been who is the Dragon Reborn, which single person but in the show Moiraine doesn’t even know if it’s a single person or five. If they can’t even know that how are they supposed to trust the prophecies, never mind the difficulties of interpreting them. The idea of the five headed Dragon is just so stupid, no shade on the Power Rangers but Power Rangers Dragon indeed.
@45 and others discussing costumes – wtf is Rand wearing in that scene where he’s talking to Moiraine outside on the balcony after she heals Mat? Is it…like a weird leather skirt that is worn on top of pants? Or some kind of chaps-like riding outfit? Or a holster for weapon’s he’s not currently carrying? I can’t tell if it’s a specific thing I don’t recognize, or just a deliberate (if strange) choice as part of the worldbuilding.
@56, to be fair all of the Emond Fielders were vital to success n the Last Battle. Perrin protects Rand’s back during the fight with the Dark One. Mat fights and wins Tarmon Gai’don. Egwene brings the White Tower to Rand and heals the Pattern, and Nynaeve helps Rand cleanse Saidin, heals taint madness and supports him in the fight with Moridin/ the Dark One. That said there’s only One Dragon Reborn. Blurring that is a major departure, but what’s one more?
55. Gaidin
I had not noticed that piece when watching it. I just went back and I confess it is an odd little piece. Its probably meant to be leather, though more likely some kind of faux leather. There is a large pouch with a closing flap on his right hip. It looks like a oddly shaped work apron you might find on any type of craftsman meant to hold tools and supplies. I don’t see any particular sign its meant to hold weaponry.
And now looking at it again, I’m seeing a pieced strapped around his left leg. That could be intended to help stabilize a sword scabbard; or it could be intended for a similar purpose for a hammer or hatchet.
I’m not sure I’ve seen anything quite like it. I could see it as an all-purpose work “apron” meant for both a workman (smith, carpenter, etc.) or a soldier/warrior. In that case it could be intended only as, as you mention, a world-building detail.
I know that’s not a clear answer, but analyzing an article of clothing off a picture, especially when the picture isn’t intended to display the item in detail, can be challenging. My wife and I have recreated costumes from single images, often without a full length image, can be very challenging.
I’d be interested if anyone else has a different interpretation.
I agree that the five part dragon theory makes no sense but I’m giving them slack because it plays into the “hide the Dragon Reborn identity” game that I find entertaining and enjoyable…
I’m not sure that the Dragon’s identity is all that big a deal to viewers who haven’t read the books. I guessed it and I’ve seen it guessed multiple times now.
One guess was based on the name evoking a certain objectivist author. I have no idea if Jordan was an admirer or acolyte, but plenty of authors in that generation were.
Another guess was based on the name of a certain Norse storm god. Between that and the previous assumption by some, the Dragon’s name is a blaring horn along with large flashing lights.
My take is that it would be a mistake if they don’t have the reveal this season. It may even turn off some viewers from returning for season 2.
I appreciated the smug look on Egwene’s face when Siuan said she was the most powerful channeler in a thousand years…and then it turned to surprise/jealously when she realized that Siuan meant Nynaeve, not Egwene. Little character moments like that are what you can get in a visual medium to enrich a book experience.
I tend to agree with the general consensus that Ewgene, Nynaeve, Lan and Moiraine are really nailing the characters, though I still personally have a hard time dealing with Moiraine being tall (maybe I just miss my super short person representation.). I even think Rand is too, so far, though he hadn’t had much to do yet. Perrin and Mat I’m just not feeling, and I even like the actor for Perrin and have enjoyed the sometimes smartass comments from Mat, and i like the DR red herring into Mat as a possible channeler as a way to develop the stigma around make channeling bit. But somehow I don’t feel like the show writing quite has them down yet.
@51 Sunspear: I watched the video you linked. It was a well-explained piece. However, I feel like it could come off as a little bit dismissive of some of what I feel are legitimate criticisms with where they are going with the story. I do agree in the generic sense of what the guy in that video is saying, and already understood those issues going into this show. It comes off as suggesting that anyone who doesn’t like the changes was expecting a page-by-page translation of the books. Some people you will never please, but I certainly wasn’t expecting that. I actually liked episode 3 a lot. While it’s not exactly how events went down in the book, it feels like something that could have happened in the book and was a nice distillation that made it feel like the same story while getting it across in a lot less time. However, I’m not sure that some of the things the show is doing necessarily serves the purpose of what he says shows should try to accomplish.
While I do see them laying some nice ground work for later stuff with some of the episodes where they’ve gone more off book, I disagree with him that some of the stuff needs to be done this early. I don’t want to spoil anything for you, but he references an event that won’t happen for a couple of seasons at least. I see them as putting this event off and not rushing it given the characters involved. I feel that an episode done this season–even though I really liked that episode!–would have been better served at the beginning of the season where said future event happens. When Event happens, I don’t think that viewers should have to say, “Oh, yeah, remember way back in season one…” which would have been several years before if they didn’t rewatch all the seasons. Much more poignant to merely remember back to the beginning of the same season. Especially since that episode, good as it was, didn’t advance the plot of the season one story at all, and that’s something the guy in the video points out as something to consider when deciding what goes where. With limited space, that episode could have been better spent getting to know our main characters better and having more events that were reminiscent of story one, even if some of them were just nods.
Because I do feel like they have a duty to have season one capture more of the feel of the first book. While he points out that they are adapting the whole series and you can include the feel of the series as a whole in part one, you don’t want things to be mashed up so much that it creates cognitive dissonance for the book readers. All the Aes Sedai politics is reminiscent of the later series and that’s great. However, if readers were expecting more of book one for season one, then having three off-book episodes in a row in the middle of an 8-episode season creates confusion as to where they are going. It may not readily click that this is more a represenation of the work as a whole. And why is that bad? Why do I feel like expectations should be catered to slightly more in season one? Because you don’t want to lose more book readers than you have to. Some of the book readers will be gone no matter what you do. Some will stay no matter what you do. But those middle book readers are important. While the majority of the viewership is coming from non-readers, those readers can provide word-of-mouth recommendation, and are also vital to the general internet reviews. Numbers are super important for the season. You need that first season to land. Later, after the readers are used to the show, you can branch into the deviations and rearrangements more and more. Again, I for one don’t ask for a page by page story–episode 3 was a great summation. But it should at least reassure readers that season one is the same story as book one. Ironically, the first couple of books are the ones that would translate the best to the screen! Most readers would agree that a lot of the later books would likely be cut by an adaptation, but interesetingly they are transplanting stuff from later books into season one and displacing the early book story.
And really, I think the main thing here is that there just isn’t enough time spent with the main characters. It is becoming especially clear from this last episode that this is the Moiraine Show. And it’s fine giving her more stuff and more character development! Moiraine is a well-loved character, Rosamund Pike is doing great, and especially for season one, it kind of makes sense to have more of the story from her viewpoint and develop her a little more. But the show is doing it at the expense of the other characters. Many of the large departures from the books, if you analyze them, have been for the purpose of developing Moiraine’s character. But the others seem to be shoved into the corner. So like I say, even keeping one of the non-book episodes of this season for a later season would have been a nice way to give some time to the other characters, and also not sour too many readers from having three non-book episodes in a row.
And back to this latest episode, there are just story changes that don’t need to happen for any reason other than to really give Moiraine more screen time, it seems. The confusing Ter’angreal that lets her meet Siuane. Not only are bookreaders confused as to what it’s actually doing, but depending on what it’s doing, it could have implications for the story later down the line–and at worse, it becomes an abandoned concept later, which is just bad writing. Simple enough to have Siuane order Moiraine to her study to discuss her actions that night, with the proclamation that she would deliver her sentence the next day. No one would then question Moiraine privately meeting the Amyrlin then. Swearing an oath of fealty on the Oath Rod should be anathema to any Aes Sedai. It’s a huge plot point later! It just changes something about the world and these people that doesn’t need to be changed. The rod doesn’t need to be introduced here, and they could have had an equally compelling and well-acted emotional exile scene without the rod. Lots of looks between Siuane and Moiraine would have conveyed the same thing. The scene can remain pretty much exactly the same without the Oath Rod, and thus without book-readers becoming angry and confused at the profaning of the Oath Rod. And Moiraine opening the waygate–why? What purpose does it serve other than to give another close-up of Rosamund Pike? It has nothing to do with adapting the story–it doesn’t condense or streamline anything. It takes the same amount of seconds to open the gate whether she channels or whether Loial has a key for it, so why put bookreaders in this weird spot?
I just don’t think it’s fair to dismiss some of the criticisms as people wanting a literal translation of the books. I like some of the stuff they’re adding, but it also feels like I’m just really missing some of the things that stood out for me from that first book and that I really thought would look good on screen. The stuff they’re adding could have worked as well later on.
@61, Never made the connection to the objectivist author before, that’s interesting, most commentaries I’ve seen focuses on the King Arthur similarities. From comments I’ve seen from book readers around these episode posts, I’m not sure the identity of the DR was supposed to be hard to guess in the books either. I’ve seen people say it was obvious because the narrative was focused on one character’s POV for most of the first book. I was pretty young and inexperienced with fantasy tropes when I got on to the books so it wasn’t obvious to me, but on rereading I’d say it was made obvious to the audience by the end of the first book, then made explicit to the characters in the second book, they may or may not go the same route on the sho.
Turning the horses loose at the Waygate may be a little bow to the scene before the West-door of Moria in LOTR, where the packhorse, Bill, is turned loose to the dismay of Sam. But at least Sam takes all Bill’s loads off him before Bill leaves, and Gandalf gives Bill “words of care and guiding” in parting. In episode 6, by contrast, Lan et al. simply whack the horses on the rear to hustle them off with their saddles and bridles still on. That’s no way to treat an equine! Grated on me at the time and still does.
The other thing that bothered me is that the Aes Sedai at the White Tower, including and especially Siuan, are supposed to be sore at Moiraine because she’s never around the place and no one knows what she does out in the world. So her punishment for not explaining herself is to kick her out of the White Tower indefinitely, with no requirement that she submit a travel plan or write home or anything! Will the AS really buy that? Maybe Liandrin will express suspicions about this oh-so-convenient penalty in the next episode or two; we’ll see.
Finally, I was way confused by the character of Maigan. Did I miss something? She seemed to be introduced with no context at all. A Maigan appears several times in the books (later on), but the TV show can’t be relying on that.
That said, I enjoyed many elements of this episode. The prologue was especially lovely, fine acting, good pace, lush sets, an intro to Siuan’s character/background that was helpful but not over-portentous, nice segue via the chest tattoos. And in the rest of the episode I was struck again by the excellence of several of the actors. Besides the leads, the actor playing Alana had an impressive charismatic presence. The actor playing Maigan did a super job too. And so on.
@61 – I’ve seen quite a few theorize that it’s Rand simply because it’s obvious the show has been ignoring him. And one person did get really excited when they read in some background information that the mountain Rand mentions feleing familiar is caled DRAGON mount. It was kind of cute, actually :D
I’ve seen a few others also savvy enough to reflect that given the era these books were written in, Rand meets all the tropes.
Hmmm. It does sound like everybody BUT Rand is being revealed as special in some way…
@61 and 64 – There be spoilers in the comments for People Not of the Book, so be careful!
Anyway, I would say that WoT characters share many common reference points with Thor, Arthur, Odin, Guinevere, Nimue, Perun, Shiva, Buddha and a hundred others. But I’ve never seen any evidence that they were inspired or pay tribute to Ayn Rand.
@69. fernandan: I’m not averse to spoilers at all. In some ways, finding out plot points and reveals beforehand enhances my experience. I’ve been spoiled aplenty about things in the Malazan series so far and it’s actually given me a deeper experience on a first read, rather than a somewhat confusing one, perhaps requiring a second read. I can set aside some concerns and focus on how they get there; in other words, the story itself, not the distractions.
I guess we’d have to ask an expert if there was any influence from that particular author. Just had a conversation recently about Trek tie-in author Diane Carey about how her emphasis on “there is no common good” in one of her novels could be attributed to objectivist theory. The acolytes are legion (or used to be in prior decades) and sometimes they insert their views where you wouldn’t expect it or they don’t belong.
I should make it clear that I see Rand’s influence as pernicious, but it does seem like it buried it’s roots deep in some places. The secondary implication of her influence, for example, is that the Great Man/the Hero is always literally a man.
The worst thing I can say about Rand the character at the moment is that he’s a total noob archer: he carries his bow strung at all times (as if he was in a video game). You do not want this guy in your questing group. Guess he’ll have to switch weapons…
This episode was well done, from a cinematic and procedural point of view. However, there are any number of things which, now that we’re traveling the Ways, are going to need to change.
Mat is not needed at the Eye, his involvement with the Horn comes later, and there’s plenty of time for everyone to reconnect before that happens. Leaving him behind may be a convenience for changing actors, or it may allow for a different arc for the character – remains to be seen.
Moiraine’s encounter with Siuan serves to establish just how close they two are – not only sexually, but in every aspect of their relationship. I’ve seen some comments of ‘oh, she’s a lesbian’ – don’t bet on it, if I remember the story correctly, she ends up in a relationship with a man (not going to elaborate for the sake of the non-readers in the group) so defining her sexuality was not what that scene was about. It was well done, and gives her relationship with Siuan a basis that would have taken several scenes to establish otherwise.
Loial needs more screen time. His function and actions in the ways, as well as at the Eye, will tell whether or not the Ogier are going to be treated as major characters or if they’re just an opportunity for some fancy makeup and prosthetics. It can still go either way.
My biggest objection to this episode was the ‘traveling’ ter’angreal – Traveling is such a HUGE part of the story, and the re-discovery of that talent is so important in advancing the plot, that to make it as easy as having a ‘deux ex machina’ that will substitute does a significant disservice to the eventual excitement when Traveling becomes available. It was pretty un-necessary, in my opinion.
I’m looking forward to seeing what/how this first season will wrap. There’s a lot of book 1 left to come, if they’re going to try to stick with that storyline.
Non- book reader here. So far I like the story and the costumes. I thought all the sitters costumes looked very different from each other. They let color be the link for each group but it made me think of nuns with different wimples or nurses with different hats depending on which group they belong to. I absolutely loved Moiraine’s court dress and then the change to the travel outfit.
I agree about letting the horses loose with saddles and bridles is something no real horse person would do. It leaves them prone to all kinds of injuries.
Regarding the horses: The book cover I see shown everywhere has Lan on a giant horse and Moiraine looking like a child on a pony. Is that significant or just artistic choice?
@74 – Not sure if you are joking, but the book covers are something of an inside joke in the community. They are pretty terrible. But, with that said, in the books Moiraine is very short. Probably no taller than 5 feet. I think the artist just ran with it.
The thing with changing the Waygate is that it seems to be a rule of cool thing which will have major consequences for key events later in the series. Though the teleport thing is probably excusable as a ter’angreal. The issue is that it’s small changes with major ramifications later. And GoT seems to have failed as its small early changes spun out of control.
Perhaps unrelated:
Rosamund Pike as Moraine vs Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica in Dune. Who did it better? If they swapped roles, who would do better and which franchise, if any, would be better off?
This episode was good,mostly, but I wouldn’t say excellent.
Things I liked:
Interior architecture of the White Tower — better than I imagined while reading the books.
Moiraine’s secret — not what I expected yet very well written and acted.
Protrayal of Siuan Sanche – Sophie Okonedo does a marvelous job as both formidable yet vulnerable. The acting in general continues to impress. That includes Anakin Skywalker as Rand al’Thor.
Things I don’t like:
Liandrin’s secret — disappointed in the writer’s choice here. It weakens her character
Moiraine’s tribulation — although it neatly leads to the next step in the journey, it feels forced and unbelievable.
Pacing — Suian’s backstory is pointless, and when the story quickened just before The Ways, it ground to a halt for an necessary “pep talk.”
Speaking of The Ways, Sylas pointed out the biggest miss and that’s the character of Loial. Moiraine calls him “Builder,” but of what? Certainly not Tar Valon, which looks like Shadar Logath but with flowers. Why have Moiraine use the Power to open The Ways? Ugh ugh so not excellent.