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Star Trek: Enterprise Rewatch: “Marauders”

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Star Trek: Enterprise Rewatch: “Marauders”

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Star Trek: Enterprise Rewatch: “Marauders”

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Published on July 18, 2022

Screenshot: CBS
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Star Trek: Enterprise "Marauders"
Screenshot: CBS

“Marauders”
Written by Rick Berman & Brannon Braga and David Wilcox
Directed by Mike Vejar
Season 2, Episode 6
Production episode 032
Original air date: October 30, 2002
Date: unknown

Captain’s star log. We open at a ramshackle mining colony that is struggling to meet their quota. As they work, a ship comes down from orbit, but it’s not a ship they recognize. However, the viewer recognizes it as a shuttlepod from Enterprise.

Archer, T’Pol, and Tucker approach the miners about trading for some deuterium. The miners are unwilling to part with any deuterium. When Archer points out that they scanned a very large reserve, the miners are initially pissed that Enterprise scanned them at all. Archer assures them that they only did so because they didn’t reply to hails. The leader, Tessic, says they’re too busy mining and refining to answer hails, especially since two of their pumps are down. The reserve Enterprise scanned is for another customer, and Enterprise needs to leave before that customer arrives in a few days.

The haggling then begins in earnest, as Archer can offer Tucker’s repair services on the pumps, as well as some medical supplies and power cells. In exchange for that, Tessic will give them a tiny bit of deuterium, and they need to get it done before the other client arrives in three days.

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Tucker goes back to the pod to find a stowaway: a boy named Q’ell, who asks lots of questions about the pod. Tucker offers him a ride, if he gets permission from his elders. Tucker then repairs the pumps.

E’Lis accompanies the shuttlepod back to Enterprise where Phlox provides her with various supplies. Phlox notices that she needs treatments for plasma burns, which is unusual for a mining colony, but E’Lis gives him a bullshit answer for it. Archer also notices that the mine is pretty run-down and should be in much better shape given how much deuterium they mine.

A Klingon ship comes out of warp. This is the other client. It turns out that Tessic doesn’t trade with them, he simply gives them as much deuterium as they want in exchange for Korok, the leader of the Klingon gang, not killing them all. They tried rebelling, and it got several people—including Q’ell’s father—killed. The Enterprise crew on the planet hide and Enterprise stays on the far side of the planet from the Klingon ship when it comes into orbit.

The deuterium earmarked for Korok is insufficient, which Tessic blames on the broken pumps that have only just been fixed. Korok “generously” gives them four days to mine the rest of it.

Tessic gives Archer the deuterium they asked for, and then politely but urgently asks them to leave before the Klingons come back. Archer, however, is not willing to let this go. T’Pol points out that fighting off the Klingons once won’t help them—once Enterprise is gone, Korok will just come back and be meaner.

Star Trek: Enterprise "Marauders"
Screenshot: CBS

Instead, they teach them how to defend themselves. T’Pol teaches them some basic self-defense against Klingon edged weapons (which is pretty much just ducking and falling down with purpose), Reed teaches them how to shoot, and Archer comes up with a plan to move the location of the camp (the buildings are modular and designed to be moved around anyhow) so that the Klingons can be lured to the deuterium field.

When Korok returns, a guerilla war ensues, as the Klingons face resistance for only the second time—and skilled resistance for the first. Eventually, after lots of back-and-forth, the Klingons stand over the deuterium field (which they don’t realize because the camp has been moved) and Reed sets it on fire. Korok decides this is no longer worth the trouble and beams out. Tessic gives Enterprise a crapton more deuterium by way of thanks.

Can’t we just reverse the polarity? This episode puts a bandaid on previous misuses of deuterium on Voyager (see in particular “Demon”) as something rare and valuable by establishing that ships need refined deuterium, so colonies like the one here are needed to not just mine it but refine it.

The gazelle speech. Archer refuses to sit back and let the miners be bullied, and he also does the captainly thing of whipping out an appropriate cliché, to wit, give someone a fish and they can eat for a day, but teach them how to fish, and they can eat for a lifetime.

Star Trek: Enterprise "Marauders"
Screenshot: CBS

I’ve been trained to tolerate offensive situations. T’Pol shows off her Mad Martial Arts Skillz by training the miners how to defend themselves, and also by kicking some Klingon butt.

Florida Man. Florida Man Bonds With Little Kid, But Not In A Creepy Way.

Optimism, Captain! Phlox is the first to realize that the miners are being bullied by noticing what medical supplies E’Lis specifically asks for.

Qapla’! Korok and his gang aren’t wearing military armor, so are likely not Klingon Defense Force soldiers. T’Pol all but verifies this when she shoots down Archer’s notion of asking the High Council for help, as she does not believe Korok will care what the High Council thinks.

I’ve got faith…

“You won’t hurt me.”

“It’s not you that I’m worried about.”

–T’Pol reassuring Mayweather when they’re about to do a self-defense demonstration, and Mayweather not being remotely reassured.

Star Trek: Enterprise "Marauders"
Screenshot: CBS

Welcome aboard. Trek veterans Larry Nydrom, Robertson Dean, and Bari Hochwald play, respectively, Tessic, Korok, and E’Lis. Nydrom previous was a T’Lani in DS9’s “Armageddon Game” and a Kazon in Voyager’s “Alliances,” Dean was a Romulan in TNG’s “Face of the Enemy” and a Reman in Nemesis, while Hochwald was Doctor Lense in DS9’s “Explorers” and Brin in Voyager’s “Friendship One.” Steven Flynn plays Maklii, while future lead singer of The Neighbourhood, Jesse James Rutherford, plays Q’ell.

Trivial matters: The story of this episode is very much inspired by the 1954 Akira Kurosawa film Seven Samurai and its various remakes and spinoffs, most notably the 1960 Western The Magnificent Seven.

Archer mentions the events of “Broken Bow” twice, once to T’Pol when speculating on whether or not they can call in a favor with the High Council after getting Klaang and his message to them, and once to Tessic when saying that his mission of peaceful exploration started out with him getting shot in the leg by a Suliban Cabal soldier, and how he had no choice but to fight back and defend himself.

Archer says the Kreetassans recommended the colony as a deuterium source, a recommendation that likely came shortly after the events of “A Night in Sickbay.”

The Vulcan martial art that T’Pol teaches techniques from is called Suus Mahna, named after co-producer/writer Mike Sussman.

This is the only Trek credit for scripter David Wilcox, who would go on to work on the Law & Order franchise and also serve as one of the co-executive producers of Fringe.

Star Trek: Enterprise "Marauders"
Screenshot: CBS

It’s been a long road… “I sense what you’re about to say is not going to make me happy.” Seven Samurai is one of my ten favorite movies of all time, and I’m also a fan of both versions of The Magnificent Seven (the 1960 one with Yul Brenner and the 2016 one with Denzel Washington), and after viewing this episode, I have a great urge to rewatch all three. (And yes, I know about the other science fictional take on the story, the Roger Corman-produced Battle Beyond the Stars, and leave us simply say that it is not one of my ten favorite movies of all time…)

In general, this is actually a decent reworking of the premise, but writers Rick Berman, Brannon Braga, and David Wilcox are a little too painstaking in their homages to both samurai movie and Western to the detriment of the actual genre they’re working in.

Here’s the problem: the Klingons have a) a ship in orbit, b) disruptor pistols, and c) transporter technology. Yes, they’re bullies, and yes, bullies tend to back off when their victims fight back, but this isn’t a fair fight by any stretch. There’s nothing stopping Korok from beaming back down outside the ring of fire Reed created and shooting everyone. For that matter, there’s nothing stopping him from firing on the colony from orbit, and Enterprise—hiding as they are on the other side of the planet—wouldn’t be able to stop them in time.

It’s too bad, because for the most part, this is a fun adventure. I like that T’Pol is right there with Archer in wanting to help the victimized miners, and also that—as always—she’s actually smart about it and talks Archer out of just fighting the Klingons.

Another instance of painstaking re-creation without thinking is the inclusion of Q’ell. The kid serves no purpose in the story at all. His bonding with Tucker goes precisely nowhere, he doesn’t participate in the fight or become collateral damage or anything. He’s just there so there’s a cute kid. Snore.

This would’ve worked better if, like in the original, the bandits were also on the same planet and all Archer and the gang have to do is drive them off to another part of the world, not back into orbit where they can pick them off at their leisure.

(Also, we have yet another non-teasing teaser, as we see people mining and a ship landing and, then Russell Watson starts singing, and that’s it? Why do I even care about any of this?)

Warp factor rating: 5

Keith R.A. DeCandido urges everyone to support the Kickstarter for Thrilling Adventure Yarns 2022, an anthology of pulp stories edited by former Trek comics editor and longtime Trek prose stylist Robert Greenberger. Keith will have a story in it called “Ticonderoga Beck and the Stalwart Squad.” Among the other contributors are Keith’s fellow Trek word-slingers David Gerrold, Peter David, Greg Cox, Michael Jan Friedman, Geoffrey Thorne, Aaron Rosenberg, Paul Kupperberg, Glenn Hauman, and, if a stretch goal is reached, Diane Duane. There’s also a new story by Lester Dent, the creator of Doc Savage, plus tales by Raymond Benson, Jody Lynn Nye, Mark Verheiden, Will Murray, and tons more! Check it out and please consider supporting it!

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Keith R.A. DeCandido has been writing about popular culture for this site since 2011, primarily but not exclusively writing about Star Trek and screen adaptations of superhero comics. He is also the author of more than 60 novels, more than 100 short stories, and more than 70 comic books, both in a variety of licensed universes from Alien to Zorro, as well as in worlds of his own creation, most notably the new Supernatural Crimes Unit series debuting in the fall of 2025. Read his blog, or follow him all over the Internet: Facebook, The Site Formerly Known As Twitter, Instagram, Threads, Blue Sky, YouTube, Patreon, and TikTok.
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o.m.
2 years ago

A frontier colony, mining (and refining) deuterium as if it was oil. Nice imagery, but did any of the writers know what deuterium is? And … interesting … how they managed to adapt alien weapons to safe training mode on a starship. But that’s quibbling.

I disagree with the point about fire from orbit. Do we know that the Klingon freighter is equipped for that? Beaming around tactics might be a point.

And I wonder about the way they went about the fight. With that I mean I genuinely wonder. Was it the right psychological move to defeat the Klingons without killing or even seriously hurting one of them, or was it wrong? The Klingons actually dropped-and-not-recovered a number of Bath’leth when they drew their sidearms. What does that mean for what seems to be decidedly second-rate marauders? Will they crawl away in shame? Dump their leader and let the new one find new victims? Or will they be back to wipe out all evidence of their shame?

Regarding similarities, was I the only one to think of T’Pol as a Vasquez look-alike?

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2 years ago

I remember this one as being a decidedly unambitious storyline that was at least executed competently. Unfortunately, I seem to recall this as being the main thing that can be said even for the good episodes in Enterprise‘s first two seasons.

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ED
2 years ago

 @krad: I tend to agree that this episode is passable, inoffensive and rather uninspiring (with the exception of a pre-credits sequence pitiably limp even by the mostly-unimpressive standards of ENTERPRISE); my best guess as to why the Klingons completely fail to do anything tactical is that they’re not actually Space Pirates, just Space Truckers who’ve gotten a little too used to driving a harder deal at the expense of the locals whenever they roll into town.

 It also bears considering that wiping this colony off the map means wiping out all hope of further profit – if the Klingons could run the place themselves they’d probably have taken the place over lock, stock and barrel by now (and probably wouldn’t be trucking about the space lanes, as opposed to wildcatting); if they had backers willing to cut them in on a juicy share of the profits (as opposed to cutting them out of the deal) they would probably have wiped the miners off the planet the first time those roughnecks attempted to throw them off it and then brought in more tractable experts.

 So in other words these Klingons are exactly the sort of Houseless wastes of space you’d expect to be nickel-and-diming a frontier mining colony to death; too ignorant and unimaginative to even avenge their own humiliations properly!

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Bob
2 years ago

Is it fun to watch remakes of the Seven Samurai? Yes, usually. 
Was it fun to watch a Klingon episode, yeah sure. Maybe also a missed opportunity to use a different alien species, they could have given the Nausicaans a chance or done something entirely different. 
Nothing special but a pretty good episode. 

I know I should look at the episode we got and not complain about the episode I wish we got but I am going to do it anyway. Since this episode was made in 2002 I perhaps naively thought there might be a more nuanced political take but no, the imperialist Starfleet teaches the locals to fight back and there isn’t even a hint that there might be any unintended negative consequences as a result. It is all just a little too neat and tidy. 

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ED
2 years ago

 Put another way – how do we know these ‘Marauders’ are even Warrior Caste, as opposed to the sort of less-belligerent souls one might expect to be driven to the margins by the latter’s ‘corporate takeover’ of the Empire?

garreth
2 years ago

This was a decent enough episode but I think I was annoyed right off the bat with the casting because yet again it’s a colony of white people.  Are just about all of the aliens in the Alpha Quadrant white people?  They can’t cast a couple dozen actors and extras that are all Black, or Asian, or brown people, and apply some prosthetics?  Was there really that much of a shortage of ethnic actors in Los Angeles in 2002?  Geesh!

Krad, in the Welcome Aboard section, you mention three actors in the first sentence and then respectively give only two of the characters they play in the episode, leaving out the third.

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sheepdot
2 years ago

There were at least a couple of moments during the episode where it seemed like they were setting something up with Q’ell: both his interest in the shuttlepod (and fiddling with the controls) at the beginning, and Tessic’s admonition that Q’ell was to stay out of the fight. One might have expected Q’ell to commandeer the shuttlepod and attempt to use it in the battle, with potentially tragic results. But as KRad points out, that story went absolutely nowhere. I wonder if the original intention was to go in that direction, but it got cut for time or for being too dark.

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2 years ago

We deal in deuterium, friend.  

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ED
2 years ago

Nobody throws me my phase pistol and says run. Nobody!

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2 years ago

As far as I recall, none of the Klingons on Enterprise are ever depicted as wearing any sort of military uniform. It makes me think that central authority in the Empire had already all but broken down by the twenty-second century, and that the Augment Virus pandemic was all that was necessary to push it into the century-long disarray that they only finally came out of in Discovery season 1.

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2 years ago

“Malcolm’s got this rule. You’ve got to be taller than the gun to use it.”

Simplistic but satisfying. Archer’s Good Samaritan tendencies kick in again: He doesn’t like leaving people in danger, but he knows not to force his help on them, staying out of sight when requested and stopping Tucker from interfering in the Klingons’ first visit. Tucker gets the job of befriending the cute alien kid and it seems at one point as though he might be the one talking Archer into helping these people, although in the end he’s the one most cautious. T’Pol is on the receiving end of Archer’s bullish interrogation again, but for once they’re more or less on the same page, she just wants to make sure he’s thought things through before getting involved.

It’s nice that T’Pol’s self-defence demonstration doesn’t involve the usual cliché of her knocking Mayweather to the ground. The final rout of the Klingons is a bit Home Alone, but it’s fun watching them repeatedly humiliated anyway. We even get the moment of Korok realising just too late that he’s been tricked.

Archer notes they’ve been in space a little more than a year. He mentions both“Broken Bow” and “Sleeping Dogs” as reasons for the Klingon High Council to owe them a favour. It’s unclear whether T’Pol’s right about Korok’s crew not answering to the High Council: This feels like the sort of “Klingon border raid” we hear mentioned a lot but rarely see. A return of the light uniforms from “Desert Crossing”, with T’Pol in the Vulcan equivalent, although they all decide to dress like they’re in Rambo or Aliens for the final fight. (Archer and Tucker also keep their heads uncovered throughout, having apparently learned nothing from their last visit to a desert…)

There’s an odd ending where the miners pile up a load of deuterium for the Enterprise crew…and then they get in their shuttlepod and fly off without it! Are they going to beam it aboard or is Archer planning to send someone else back to do the heavy lifting?

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2 years ago

Isn’t deuterium a gas? 😒😒

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Charles Rosenberg
2 years ago

Yes Deuterium is a gas at standard temperature and pressure. My guess is that this planet is somehow richer in Deuterium (in Water, Brines, Hydrocarbon deposits etc) than is typical for rocky planets. The “miners” are probably using processes similar to how we extract Deuterium from seawater. From there they probably use pumps and compressors to chill the Deuterium to the point that it liquifies to make transportation of large quantities practical.

Q’ell was definitely a wasted plot point. At least Florida Man wasn’t being creepy, but given how Q’ell was interested in the Shuttlepod, why didn’t Mayweather interact with him? Boomer who grew up on a freighter talking spacecraft with kid interested in them might have resonated better than Engineer talking to said kid.

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2 years ago

Another planet-based threat would have been far preferrable to a threat from space. No amount of martial arts or small arms makes up for a threat with the high ground of orbital space. Come to think of it, neither does it help against any foe with technologies that use lots of deutrium. Perhaps, without either Klingons or deutrium, they could have crafted a more satisfying episode. 

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o.m.
2 years ago

in 3:
What does it take to deliver a targeted kinetic bombardment from orbit? At the very least aerodynamic, guided projectiles, unless we’re into ‘dinosaur killer’ territory — and there was no indication that the Klingons have a tractor that capable.

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Nathan E Miller
2 years ago

When you first announced this rewatch, I was dubious about the Florida Man gimmick.  Turns out it is one of my favorite parts.

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foamy
2 years ago

@19: Geosynchronous orbit wouldn’t make hitting the place with rocks much easier. It isn’t just tossing a rock out the hatch here, y’know? It won’t fall down, you aren’t *dropping* rocks. You need to, instead, very precisely change its orbital parameters in such a way that, after the effects of atmospheric passage, it strikes your target — which is a moving one, owing to planetary rotation. Obviously, anybody in space in Trek ought to be able to do the requisite calculations and supply the requisite energies, but like, they can do that from basically any orbit they want, so why call out geosync specifically…?

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Drunes
2 years ago

Anything that pays homage to Seven Samurai  is okay in my boo

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Charles Rosenberg
2 years ago

Kinetic impacts will get the job done with sufficient mass and velocity. That being said, simply dropping a rock (even a bus sized one) from orbit isn’t going to get you the velocity required to get the outcome you want. You need to accelerate that rock to about 20,000 MPH for it to be able to take out the mining facility (and then you’ve destroyed the source of the Deuterium you want).

Now, if we’re talking about an Atmospheric capable ship (Like the Bird of Prey from ST:IV) AND it’s armed with rail guns designed to deliver hypersonic projectiles, I could see strafing the mine with the goal of taking out the miners while limiting damage to the infrastructure.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

“Marauders” is the first of the rather dull, pointless episodes that populate too much of season 2. If I want to watch a sci-fi take on The Magnificent Seven, I’d rather watch Battle Beyond the Stars — which is no great shakes itself in the story or quality department, but is more entertaining than this and has at least a few interesting ideas (aliens who communicate by heat and can be a living campfire? Awesome!) and some interesting cast members.

Also, I didn’t care for the resurrection of VGR: “Demon”‘s terrible idea of misrepresenting deuterium as some kind of rare compound that was mined from harsh planet surfaces, rather than an isotope of hydrogen that can be easily found in any ocean, comet, ice moon, gas giant atmosphere, stellar wind, or nebula. I wish the producers, both here and in “Demon,” had just gone with dilithium, which is more plausible as a scarce material.

I actually do have a fix for it in this case, though, although there’s no way to reconcile the inanity of “Demon.” I included it in my novel Rise of the Federation: Live by the Code, where I brought back Korok in a supporting role. From pp. 260-61:

After all, Korok was the captain who had once let himself be beaten by a group of backward, unarmed deuterium miners on Yeq. That planet had been a rare prize—a planet where gaseous deuterium was concentrated in underground pockets as a decay product of celebium, enabling it to be easily collected and purified, rather than existing in trace quantities that had to be meticulously sifted out of water or interstellar hydrogen. It had been just the thing for those who operated on the fringes and preferred to avoid the normal supply lines. Moreover, the alien miners who had settled there had been placid and easily intimidated into compliance—or so it had seemed until they had somehow developed the backbone and the strategic skills to drive Korok and his men away in humiliating retreat. Korok insisted to this day that some third party must have trained the colonists, but he had never been able to prove it. In the thirteen years since, he had been a laughingstock even among his fellow privateers and outcasts.

 

@17/o.m.: “What does it take to deliver a targeted kinetic bombardment from orbit?”

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/planetaryattack.php#id–Orbital_Bombardment–Asteroid_Bombardment

Earth is hit by rocks falling from space multiple times a day. Most of them just burn up in the atmosphere or land in uninhabited places. You just have to pick a big enough one and aim it the right way. If you have a few weeks or months, you can do it with solar sails, ion thrusters, even paint (to take advantage of light pressure). A Trek ship could do it more swiftly with a tractor beam. (Presumably the asteroid in “The Paradise Syndrome” was way too large for that.)

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2 years ago

As a footnote to the discussion above and a small pet peeve – the idea that dropping rocks from orbit is the ultimate weapon is a somewhat awkward SF trope. It’s maybe true under very particular technological circumstances that exploit materials that are already in space – convenient moons you can build a catapult on, asteroids you can redirect – or when you have really good rockets but not much other tech.  But under most circumstances an actual bomb is still a more efficient way to deliver energy to a target. (or at ST tech, an energy weapon.) 

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@25/bmac: I don’t think anyone’s saying it’s the ultimate weapon — just that if you already have a presence in space, it’s much simpler just to drop rocks down a gravity well than it is to invent some fancy sci-fi-ey hyper-death-ray.

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2 years ago

I think the problem here is “drop rocks from orbit,” in that those two concepts are incompatible. If you’re in orbit, you have to de-orbit, hence “retro-rockets.” It seems to part of the “space is the high ground for combat” meme (in the original Dawkins sense), often stated as received wisdom/unexamined premise, possibly due to Heinlein’s The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, vague U.S. military ambitions from the early days of the space race, and “Thor bundles” (who used those? Pournelle? Tom Clancy?).

Orbit isn’t like standing on a mountain or hanging from a blimp; if you’re in orbit, so is any rock you push out the hatch, unless you push at several miles per second. Of course, this is Trek, where you do fall from the sky if you lose power while in “standard orbit,” which has subsequently been interpreted as some kind of powered station-keeping to stay in comms and transporter range. Given the typical thrust-to-weight ratio of Trek impulse engines and the apparent atmospheric ability of even the bluntest vessels (*), if the Klingons did want to attack using rocks, then forget orbit, retro-rockets, targeting and atmospheric ablation; they could simply hover in the stratosphere, directly above the camp.

(*) See also the soft-landing/no-cratering of the Borg cube at the end of Picard season 1.

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foamy
2 years ago

 @27: Preach, my friend. It’s a thing that’s driven me batty for a long, long time.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@27/philip_thorne: I think the idea is supposed to be to drop rocks from orbital altitude or above, i.e. from a sufficient height that the planet’s gravity well will do the work of accelerating them. It’s not meant to be exclusively from an orbital trajectory.

However, even an orbital ship or habitat does have a legitimate high-ground advantage over an enemy on the ground. Think about it — something like the Space Shuttle needs huge rocket boosters strapped to it to lift it up out of Earth’s gravity well and into orbit, but it only needs its own onboard thrusters to decelerate below orbital velocity and let gravity pull it back down. It’s not symmetrical. Yes, an orbital ship or habitat will have to apply delta-v to its projectiles rather than merely “dropping” them, but that requires far less thrust than an enemy on the surface would need to send a weapon up to orbital altitude.

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2 years ago

In the 20th century, falling out of the sky and not crashing depended a lot on hitting the relatively soft atmosphere first – this probably is “not even wrong” but it does cover that if you dropped a Space Shuttle straight down at the Earth without considering atmosphere, it would hit quite hard.  Also in the 20th century, there’s a vast difference between being in orbit, and being up there but stationary.  Since most planets rotate, even a rocket on the ground isn’t stationary with respect to what may be called an inertial frame.  At the equator, you do about 1040 miles per hour, standing still.  This isn’t enough for orbit, of course.

I think I got from one of James Nicoll’s bugbears that dropping something fairly heavy from space, a la Heinlein, really isn’t as devastating as even a modest nuclear bomb.

I missed a point about Q’ell but if information here is accurate, he represents the price of resistance because his father died doing that.  Also he may be out of “Shane” instead of “Three Amigos” or whatever that feature is that you like?  :-)  And…  he’s a kid who kind of wants to be a space traveler.  Don’t we all identify with that?  I mean, besides the problems with the showers, etc.

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foamy
2 years ago

@29: That’s largely because the Shuttle orbiter has a nice handy atmosphere to do all the braking for it, which isn’t really a desirable thing when your objective is to have something slam into the ground as fast possible. Contrariwise, you can go look at the LMs, and pretty quickly spot that the descent stage is by far the larger of the two. A deltaV comparison, which cancels out the differing masses the two stages needed to move, shows that the descent stage still had approximately 10% more deltaV available than the ascent stage, which I believe owes to the larger potential need for manouvering on landing approach as compared to the relatively simple launch trajectory.

Your example’s not really applicable.

 

 

 

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foamy
2 years ago

 This is, incidentally, why Mars and the Moon are surprisingly close together in terms of the deltaV required to get there and back — you can use the Martian atmosphere to brake, both out of your transfer orbit from Earth into a local orbit around Mars, and then from there down to the surface. On the Moon you have to pay the full cost.

Oh, and as another point: once you’re in orbit there’s no such thing as ‘dropping below orbital velocity’, at least with a single burn; gravity is a conserving force, which means you will always return back to the last place a force was applied. If you’re dropping rocks on someone’s head, you can arrange things such that that rock’s new orbit intersects their head, and let them provide the remainder of the braking force via their skull, which is where you might get an energetic advantage, but in Star Trek that’s pretty small beans when you consider how casually these spaceships gallivant about.

 

(As a thought exercise: Suppose the Earth suddenly became, bar yourself, a point mass — air, ground, and all. What trajectory would you follow?

A: An orbital one.)

 

 

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@31/foamy: “That’s largely because the Shuttle orbiter has a nice handy atmosphere to do all the braking for it, which isn’t really a desirable thing when your objective is to have something slam into the ground as fast possible.”

That’s got nothing to do with my point. I’m talking about the difference between the thrust required to launch something into orbit, which requires strapping a vehicle to the top of a ginormous rocket and fuel tanks, and the thrust required to put an orbiting vehicle onto a trajectory that will take it to the ground, which can be done with just the vehicle. While you’re correct that getting from orbit to the ground is not simple, it is self-evident that it takes far, far less fuel than going the other way.

Yes, the atmosphere will slow projectiles on re-entry, obviously. That’s part of its job. But a large enough projectile can get through — just ask the folks in Tunguska or Winslow, Arizona. It’s not an ultimate superweapon, but my point is that it’s misunderstanding the premise to think it’s meant to be. The premise is simply that people in space trying to hit things on the ground are going to have an advantage over people on the ground trying to hit things in space.

 

“Contrariwise, you can go look at the LMs, and pretty quickly spot that the descent stage is by far the larger of the two.”

You just contradicted your own point. The reason it’s large is because you don’t want it to hit fast and hard (and because there’s no atmosphere for deceleration, so I don’t know why you’re even bringing it up in this context). It just proves my point that a hard landing is comparatively easier to achieve than either a soft landing or a launch into orbit, because it’s what gravity is trying to make you do anyway.

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foamy
2 years ago

@33: The point is that ‘The Shuttle needed big engines to get to space’ is not a useful comparator because without the air it would’ve needed exactly that much to get back down safely as well. It’s a bad example that mislead people on the basic physics of this.

The *actual* reason you can, in theory, hit people cheaply with rocks is because there’s not that much difference, energy-wise, between a 6431 x 6431km orbit around the Earth, and a 6431 x 6331 km one. But the latter will intersect the surface.

It’s worth noting, though, that if your goal is to just shoot back at someone in space you don’t actually need to hit orbital velocities either — you just need to get the positions to intersect. You can do that, right now, from ground level, with a *cannon*.

 

 

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foamy
2 years ago

Oh and also, @33:

 

 

“The reason it’s large is because you don’t want it to hit fast and hard (and because there’s no atmosphere for deceleration, so I don’t know why you’re even bringing it up in this context). It just proves my point that a hard landing is comparatively easier to achieve than either a soft landing or a launch into orbit, because it’s what gravity is trying to make you do anyway.”

 

There not being any atmosphere is the whole reason I brought it up, because it illustrates an important thing: Going down in space *is not easier* than going up. Orbits are reversible. “Gravity is trying to make you go down, so going down is easier than going up” is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@34/foamy: “The point is that ‘The Shuttle needed big engines to get to space’ is not a useful comparator because without the air it would’ve needed exactly that much to get back down safely as well.”

First: It’s not just the Shuttle, it’s every spacecraft that’s ever been launched into orbit and come back down.

Second: We’re not talking about “safely,” we’re talking about dropping rocks. We’re talking about how much thrust it would take to launch a projectile from surface to orbit vs. how much thrust it would take to get a projectile from orbit to a surface target. The fact that space capsules do not require equally large booster rockets to get down from orbit than it took them to get up there in the first place should be self-evident.

 

“The *actual* reason you can, in theory, hit people cheaply with rocks is because there’s not that much difference, energy-wise, between a 6431 x 6431km orbit around the Earth, and a 6431 x 6331 km one. But the latter will intersect the surface.”

Which does not in any way refute my point that it’s easier to do that than it is for someone on the ground to hit someone in orbit.

 

“It’s worth noting, though, that if your goal is to just shoot back at someone in space you don’t actually need to hit orbital velocities either — you just need to get the positions to intersect. You can do that, right now, from ground level, with a *cannon*.”

Okay, finally a valid point. I still don’t believe it’s exactly as easy as shooting in the reverse direction. That’s like saying it’s as easy to roll a rock uphill as it is to roll it downhill. Again, my point is only about relative advantage. It has to count for something whether you’re fighting against gravity or working with it.

 

“There not being any atmosphere is the whole reason I brought it up, because it illustrates an important thing: Going down in space *is not easier* than going up.”

On the contrary — it illustrates that in the lack of atmosphere, going down without hitting the ground hard is extremely difficult to achieve, because going down with a hard impact, which is what we’re talking about, is far easier to achieve. You’re forgetting that we’re talking about orbital bombardment, not safe landing.

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2 years ago

I agree with ChristopherLBennett. Soft landings are energy intensive without atmosphere because you need to do work against the force of gravity to ensure that the final velocity at touchdown is essentially zero. If you’re just slamming a rock into a body, that’s not a factor; you just need to apply the necessary delta-v to move the rock into an orbit that intersects the surface and then gravity will be on your side.

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foamy
2 years ago

@37: You’re correct in your conclusion — well, sort of — but your first statement contains an error: If you’re doing a landing on an airless world, most of your thrust is *not* spent against the force of gravity, as that’s a wildly inefficient way to do things. Instead, it is directed laterally, perpendicular to gravity’s influence and consequently not reduced by it. This is also true of liftoffs, which are significantly easier on airless bodies than on Earth because you needn’t spend energy gaining altitude to avoid air drag, but can instead devote every particle of thrust not currently being used to support your weight into going sideways faster, which in turn means you need to spend less thrust fighting gravity and do so for less time.

@36: As I mentioned earlier it is not true of every rocket ever, but that’s beside the point here: I accept the Shuttle as a stand in for any given Earth-return-to-Earth rocket. The point is that your analogy is based on a major misunderstanding of orbital physics. It is, and I will stress this again, *not easier* to go down than to go up once you are in orbit. That little tiny tap that can put the Shuttle into an atmospheric intercept could — if it weren’t for the interference of the atmosphere — put it right back into its original orbit, too. This was in fact one of the abort modes for the Shuttle descent if there were problems — the Shuttle would pop itself right back into orbit and do another go-round.

More broadly, gravity does not add energy into a system, nor remove it, and orbital altitude changes are, functionally, changes in energy. It is precisely, and exactly, as easy in terms of deltaV, to go from an Earth orbit to a Moon orbit as it is to go from a Moon orbit to an Earth one. Exactly the same energy must be supplied in either direction, either to add to the orbital energy if you’re going up, or remove it if you’re going down.

Note that this, so far, simply talks about altitude changes, which are by far the simplest and least-energy cost operation to do in spaceflight. Potentially germane to ‘dropping rocks’ are other aspects of those transfers, so let’s talk inclination and timing.

If you’re trying to hit a specific, precise target with an unguided projectile, a ‘rock’, you need to have a ground track that crosses over it as soon as you’re done applying thrust. Unless you’re trying to bombard somebody on the equator, that means your timing becomes extremely restricted, since in order for dropping rocks to make any sense as a value proposition you can’t be expending significant amounts of energy getting them into the right place. That means you’re going to have to wait, very patiently, for the target to rotate its way underneath your current ground track. And if your inclination is wrong, you might not *ever* actually cross over that target in the first place. Changing an inclination is not energy-efficient because, suddenly, all the energy you’ve invested in going fast in one particular path is a liability.

For example, if you were on the ISS and, for some reason, wanted to bomb the North Pole, your rock would need to execute almost a 40 degree inclination change. The ISS’s orbital speed’s approximately 7.7km/s; this means that the dV required to perform that manouver is approximately five and a half kilometres per second. That’s a non-trivial fraction of the actual orbital velocity and would, in fact, require some pretty large fuel tanks to accomplish. Even much smaller inclination changes, such as you might want if your track didn’t take you precisely over your desired target for another ten weeks, rapidly become non-trivial.

The need for your track to pass over the target causes other timing issues as well. You have a very limited window in which you can fire your rock, because both you and the ground are moving. In particular, again using the ISS as an example, you are moving at over seven kilometres per second relative to your ground target. If your timing is off by even a tenth of a second for a given trajectory, your rock is going to miss by substantial amounts as a result.

Further, let’s talk about what can actually happen to those rocks. The results of it hitting the atmosphere can fall into one of the following categories:

 

1. The rock incinerates itself in the atmosphere from shock heating.

2. The rock survives passage, but has a trajectory such that it does not impact the Earth — if it retains escape velocity, that’s that; if it does not, it will at some point re-intersect the atmosphere and we repeat the process.

3. The rock survives passage, and has a trajectory that impacts the Earth, but does not have exceed its standard terminal velocity on impact. This is not particularly useful as a weapon as, while having something hit you at a few hundred kilometres an hour is obviously not fun, you can get that in ways much less complex than going into space. Note that this is the kind of trajectory most returning capsules follow, which is part of why ‘but they don’t need big engines to get back’ isn’t useful reasoning in considering a weaponized scenario. They don’t need big engines because they are, specifically, trying to *not* be going fast when they hit the ground.

4. The rock survives passage, and has a trajectory that impacts the Earth with a greater-than-terminal velocity. In other words, it is going so fast that the air can’t slow it down in time. *This* is the category that people think about when they talk about ‘dropping rocks’, and it’s the one to which Tunguska belongs aside from the fact that it actually exploded midair (which for weaponry purposes is probably sufficient). This is not, in fact, a cheap thing to arrange in energetic terms. The sharper your impact angle, the less time the air has to slow the projectile down, but to get a sharp angle impact *from Earth orbit* you not only need to remove the projectile’s existing orbital velocity you need to supply most of it all over again in order for any of it to survive the braking forces.

Consider HARP. It achieved an altitude of ~180km on a muzzle velocity of 2100m/s with an 85kg projectile. That means of its launch energy only about half survived the atmospheric friction, and that was in a vertical launch, where those losses would be absolutely minimized. The trouble there is that achieving a vertical trajectory back down *from* orbit is, in energy terms, basically about as hard as getting there in the first place. So it doesn’t really get you anywhere to do that, either. There’s some bang-for-buck optimum where you get the most impact energy per orbit change energy in between that and a harmless landing, but the math for that is not something I’m proficient enough at to give you in a comment on a Star Trek episode.

But of course, we’re *are* talking about a Star Trek episode. In Trek the energy costs of local spaceflight are, basically, completely irrelevant. Even in Enterprise, the NX-01’s dinky little shuttle is perfectly happy toodling up and down from ground to orbit and back with Space Magic. So while now dropping rocks is really easy, whatever energy advantage might exist in doing so versus working from the ground is also made completely irrelevant — it doesn’t *matter* if you’re in space because I can get there too just as easily! It’s like saying, I dunno, that you should crew a Trek ship entirely with the smallest people you can, because that way it’s more manouverable. It’d be technically true, but it’s also, obviously, pointless.

Moreover, there’s usually a simpler way to attack someone. Someone else said this a lot better than I ever will: Rocks Are Not Free, Citizen!

 

@38: Oh, certainly there’s lots of things the Klingons could potentially do given they have a ship, but like, they have a *Star Trek* ship, dropping rocks is just a waste of everybody’s time.

 

 

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Mary
2 years ago

I remember watching this episode & thinking htf do you set heavy water on fire 

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I saw this episode long before I got around to watching Kurosawa’s filmography. Of course, this is a very familiar story we’ve seen all over the place. The plot hits the right beats, even if it feels tired and perfunctory much of the time. But at least they didn’t resort to using Nausicaans. If there’s a race perfectly suited for harassing farmers, it’s dishonorable Klingons like Korok.

Personally, I’m always invested in this type of story. Innocent poor farmers being harassed and robbed by bandits and poachers always gets a rise out of me (partly because I live in a country where this kind of thing still happens on a daily basis).

Overall, this isn’t a great episode, but it gets the job done. And it uses Archer and T’Pol well. Just another slice of TOS-esque episodic Trek, and given how underwhelming this season was, I’ll take anything that works. Also, this episode more or less explains why they did Night in Sickbay as a bottle show. This was all location, SFX and VFX work. Definitely one of the more expensive episodes at this point.

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2 years ago

Well, I’m genetically predetermined to love anything related to the Klingons and really wish that ENTERPRISE had taken more advantage of the Klingons as well as the Romulans. They were the things I think most of us were interested in learning more about that we didn’t really get. Honestly, I wish the Xindi War arc had been replaced by the Romulan War even if that was not really quite right timeline wise.

I liked seeing the Klingons acting as petty pirates and raiders while Archer helps fight against them. It’s a stark contrast to the absolute nothing (even worse than nothing) that Archer did when the Boomers were being attacked by the Nausicaans.

What really bothers me about this, though, is the idea the Alpha Quadrant is a place that is lawless and full of abusive bullies as well as criminals with no real protections could have been a worldbuilding plotline. Maybe the Federation emerged in part because of a desire for law and order for colonies.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@42/C.T. Phipps: Referring to the tiny bit of local space that NX-01 explores as “the Alpha Quadrant” is like referring to Cincinnati as “the Western Hemisphere.” I wish the quadrant notation hadn’t become so prevalent in Trek. It’s so large-scale that it’s really only meaningful when talking about transgalactic matters like travel through the Bajoran wormhole or Voyager‘s quest for home. It’s really rather ludicrous to apply it in a more local context, but unfortunately Trek chose to use it in that way instead of coming up with smaller-scale designations.

Not that real astronomy helps much either. Earth and the Federation are in the Orion Arm, but the Orion Arm is much bigger than they are. Basically, if the Orion Arm is a large banana, then the Federation and its neighbors are about the size of a half-peanut stuck into its middle. And there’s not much that can be used to subdivide the Orion Arm more finely. Though in my own fiction I use the Local Bubble.

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ED
2 years ago

 @38. krad: One point I would like to raise is that, while these Klingons have the technology to pull off a ‘colony drop’ they might well lack the mindset – quite frankly I think these Klingon marauders are lazy, greedy and lacking the sort of uncompromising spirit that turns defeat into a Pyhrric Victory for the opposition.

 After all, if they were the sort of warriors who would break the neck of the golden goose when it refused to let them pluck it further (indeed, if they were so uncompromising as to reduce that goose to ashes, rather than a nice, juicy roast) they wouldn’t be eking out an existence on the margins, they’d be rising through the ranks of the Klingon Defence Forces!

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o.m
2 years ago

in 37, consider this:

The rock survives passage, and has a trajectory that impacts the planet with a greater-than-terminal velocity, yet some parts break off and change the aerodynamics. It hits with significant energy, call it a few kilotons, in the next valley over. That might be sufficient to coerce the government of a densely populated planet, but in this example the next valley over was probably considered expendable.

Hence my suggestion to use aerodynamic, guided projectiles, which add to the cost and required preparation.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@46/krad: Orbit does have its advantages, but it’s also true that it has disadvantages that Star Trek tends to underestimate. For instance, bombarding the surface of an M-class planet with phasers from orbit is something that should not work, because a hundred-odd kilometers of atmosphere would absorb and scatter the energy long before it reached the ground. That is literally one of the most important roles of an inhabited planet’s atmosphere — preventing deadly radiation from reaching the surface. And, as discussed, it complicates physical bombardment as well, since projectiles will burn up in the atmosphere unless they’re large enough or aerodynamic enough. An atmosphere is basically a planetary deflector shield, and too many Trek episodes fail to realize this. TNG: “Final Mission” is one of the worst offenders (the folks on the planet surface should be in no more danger from the orbiting barge of radioactive waste than from the constant barrage of cosmic radiation that permeates space anyway), but it goes for any episode where phasers fired from orbit have full effect on the ground. I suppose it might be possible to tune a laser beam to a frequency that the atmosphere is transparent to, but there would still be some scattering, refraction, and extinction of the beam. And a phaser is supposed to be a particle (“nadion”) beam, so how do you tune that to be unaffected by the air?

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foamy
2 years ago

@CLB: Space Magic. Same reason the properties of holograms vary strictly according to plot.

Besides which, phasers being not only usable from orbit but also having a stun setting on *starship* phaser banks goes clear back to the first series. Which also had the much more egregious oddity of a sonic weapon impacting the Enterprise in orbit, which while not strictly impossible because space is not strictly empty, is far beyond the problems faced by a phaser, whose properties are entirely invented to begin with.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@48/foamy: “Besides which, phasers being not only usable from orbit but also having a stun setting on *starship* phaser banks goes clear back to the first series.”

Of course it does. I never suggested otherwise. But then, the first series also assumed that a starship would fall out of orbit if it lost power.

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foamy
2 years ago

 @49: That latter is perfectly plausible if it’s a powered orbit, which allows you to do things like maintain a lower-altitude synchronous orbit. That’s completely impossible with anything we know of now, but Trek ship propulsion abilities functionally amount to “Yes”, unless there’s some very specific plot thing dictating otherwise (e.g. TNG’s Deja Q).

Alternatively it could be a low enough orbit that atmospheric drag is significant, and so needs to have the ship occasionally given a kick to counteract drag. This is actually something that happens right now, albeit on much longer timescales, with the ISS, as well as, obviously, various satellites in similar or even lower orbits. A Trek ship, which is much more substantial than any of those, would probably be far less affected by drag and consequently would have to be orbiting lower for that drag to be noticeable especially given the usual short timeframes involved, but that is also, in the abstract, a physically plausible mechanism.

There’s no excuse for Into Darkness, though.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@50/foamy: “That latter is perfectly plausible if it’s a powered orbit, which allows you to do things like maintain a lower-altitude synchronous orbit.”

Yes, yes, of course, I’ve argued that myself on many an occasion. But that doesn’t mean the writers of TOS itself realized that, any more than they realized that an atmosphere would scatter a phaser beam fired from orbit.

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foamy
2 years ago

@51: A phaser is imaginary. There’s no ‘realizing’ involved there. You can just say it isn’t scattered by the air.

Thierafhal
2 years ago

I found this episode to be a bore. The title, combined with the establishment of the Klingon bullies, resulted in an all too predictable storyline. And Archer’s fishing analogy had me groaning at its simplistic obviousness. Despite the fact that the defeat of the Klingons was ludicrous in the presence of the trekkien technology at their disposal, I did enjoy them getting their comeuppance. But sadly that’s all I really got from this episode.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@52/foamy: “A phaser is imaginary.”

Everyone here knows that already. The point is to discuss how the imaginary concept differs from how it would realistically work instead. Science fiction can be a useful vehicle for talking about real science, whether through what the fiction gets right or through an analysis of what it gets wrong.

The topic of how writers of fiction fail to consider the atmosphere goes well beyond Star Trek. Consider any movie that shows people walking above a lava pit without considering that the air itself would transmit enough heat to roast them alive, or that shows characters unharmed by nearby explosions without considering how the blast wave transmitted through the air would kill them with the overpressure shock. Screenwriters tend to forget that air exists. Well, except when showing a hull breach in a spaceship, in which case there’s suddenly an unlimited supply of gale-force wind even within a closet-sized airlock. That’s getting it wrong in the other direction.

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2 years ago

Maybe a polarised phaser beam works through atmosphere just fine.  On the other hand with the Klingons…  maybe their options are limited if the ship is a rental.  If I rented a starship to a group of marauders then the deposit would be substantial, since I want to get the ship back.

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foamy
2 years ago

@54: There *is* no “how it would realistically work instead” when it comes to something you have invented from whole cloth. ‘Nadions’ don’t exist and can therefore have any properties you choose to give them whatsoever. It isn’t a question of someone not realizing something if they’re just showing you something they made up and saying “this is how it works”.

It’s like complaining that blasting someone with a friendship-powered rainbow violates the laws of optics.

ChristopherLBennett
2 years ago

@56/foamy: “There *is* no “how it would realistically work instead” when it comes to something you have invented from whole cloth.”

Of course there is. The whole point of the word “instead” is to compare a thing against an alternative. There is more than one way to invent a fictional concept. Some science fiction is just made up at random, but a lot of it, like the kind I’ve written professionally for the past quarter-century, strives for plausible conjecture grounded in realistic physics. So yes, one can validly discuss how a more realistic work of science fiction would have chosen to depict orbital bombardment instead.

Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek with the intention of making it relatively plausible, insofar as the dramatic, logistical, and budgetary requirements of television would permit. He was one of the first SFTV creators to consult with scientists and engineers and attempt to build a plausible future, which is why the Enterprise uses a space-distorting warp drive to travel faster than light rather than just being a rocketship. Yes, he took liberties, but he tried to ground them in reality to a certain degree. So evaluating the degree to which ST succeeded or failed at doing so is merely assessing it by the standards Roddenberry himself set for it.

The noted author Hal Clement liked to say that hard science fiction was a competition of sorts between the writer trying to make the conjectural science as accurate as possible and the audience trying to catch the mistakes. More broadly, as I said, discussing science fiction can be a vehicle for talking about real science. Of course phasers work fancifully, and that is my whole point — I’m comparing that fantasy against what the reality would be. Part of discussing fiction is discussing how it relates to reality, whether it’s talking about the scientific issues touched on by science fiction or the political and social issues touched on by Mark Twain or Charles Dickens. It doesn’t make sense to say that there’s no point in comparing fiction to reality because it’s fictional. The whole value of fiction is the way it reflects reality and guides our thinking about it.

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rwmg
1 year ago

Why does the Universal Translator work when Korok is speaking to non-Klingons so that we hear English but not when he’s talking to Klingons, when we hear Klingon? Does the Universal Translator actually understand some sort of lingua franca used for interspecies communication but not Klingon itself?

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1 year ago

The episode is mostly boring/annoying. I liked the idea of teaching the colonists to protect themselves, but the execution was mostly dull and even if we accept that the klingons don’t just beam outside of the circle of fire, they could still find a couple of friends and come back to take revenge. It’s also one of the least klingonish thing to do to just surrender and leave from battle, even if they are coward bullies only.