Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Carl danced with beautiful conwomen and the intricacies of the phonetic alphabet (I think he liked the first bit better). This week, we get inside the unwholesome mind of that leading slimebucket, Sadeas. Good times up in here, y’all.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 29: Rule of Blood
Point of View: Sadeas
Setting: The Shattered Plains, the Dueling Arena
Symbology: Double Eye of the Almighty, Talenel, Shalash
IN WHICH Sadeas enjoys the Thrill, but it fades too soon; Amaram retrieves the gemheart like a good little toady, and fails to convince Sadeas that there might be more important things than his personal squabbles; Sadeas envies Hatham his Ryshadium and wonders how he could get one; his thoughts reveal his fears and weaknesses; Adolin duels Eranniv, while Sadeas and Ialai prove their mutual suitability; Ialai reveals the details of the failed assassination attempt, and Sadeas ponders the possible means and necessity of Elhokar’s eventual untimely death; they speculate on who commissioned the attempt, and Ialai discourages Sadeas from using his position as Highprince of Information to find out; Sadeas finally recognizes Adolin’s mastery of dueling, and decides to change his position on discouraging other Shardbearers from challenging Adolin; he acknowledges, if only to himself, that he’d have tried to kill Dalinar even without the issue of the Codes as an excuse.
Quote of the Week:
“You mistake me,” Sadeas said. “You assume I still care about deniability.” The last Parshendi died with enraged screams; Sadeas felt proud of that. Others said Parshendi warriors on the field never surrendered, but he’d seen them try it once, long ago, in the first year of the war. They’d laid down their weapons. He’d slaughtered them all personally, with Shardhammer and Plate, beneath the eyes of their retreating companions watching from a nearby plateau.
Never again had any Parshendi denied him or his men their right to finish a battle the proper way.
Filthy brute. Ephemeromorph. I hope you DIE. SOON.
Oh, you will? Good. Thanks. Best move you ever made.
I have to wonder, though I’ll never know the answer: would I have felt as strongly about his refusal to accept a Parshendi surrender before we actually got to know them through the Eshonai interludes? I don’t recall feeling sympathetic to the Parshendi in TWoK; they were just “the enemy” who were enemies to mankind since forever-ish, so, no worries. Well, at least until Dalinar completely lost the Thrill upon realizing that the Parshendi at the other end of his sword was just a kid. That may have started the shift. In any case, getting to know them, and learning what they had given up to avoid being used by their gods again, vastly increased my sympathy toward them. They’re still “the enemy” in a sense, but they’re no longer just there for target practice; they’re people now. Perception is a funny thing.
Commentary: Ooo-kay. Would somebody go search the Storm Cellar for the brain bleach? I’m going to need it by the time we’re done here. Being in Sadeas’s head makes me feel slimy.
We start this chapter with a plateau run which Sadeas essentially stole from Hatham and Roion by means of his faster slave-destroying bridges. His main motivation is apparently to be seen thumbing his nose at Dalinar—and Elhokar—by whatever means comes to hand. His plan seems to involve tearing Alethkar apart completely, so that he can put it back together the way he wants it. In the only positive thing I can say about Amaram, he actually attempts to warn Sadeas that there are bigger things afoot; Sadeas, of course, is too egocentric to believe it.
Egocentric, but not stupid. He gets a few things right, such as this shot at Amaram:
“Don’t give me that noble talk. It works fine for others, but I know you for the ruthless bastard you really are.”
It’s just like looking in a mirror, innit?
Sadeas’s conversation with Ialai is revolting and fascinating at the same time. They’re both clever, in a reptilian fashion, as we get an inside look at their machinations. Their chat confirms for us that they are indeed behind the difficulty Adolin’s had in getting duels, as well as dropping some clues as to what they’ll do next to undermine Dalinar. Ialai’s spy network has learned by now that the “disturbance” two weeks ago was an assassination attempt—though almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, so they tell me. Not that Sadeas would have cared if they’d succeeded; the only emotion it stirs in him seems to be a faint regret that he’s going to have to kill Elhokar himself, “out of respect for old Gavilar.” However, for all the efficacy of her spies, they’ve come up empty-handed on figuring out who was behind it. Perhaps that’s not the spies’ fault; they’re looking for political motivations from within Alethkar, not mysterious, global, secret organizations with delusions of infallibility.
But Sadeas is not stupid. (He might be less hateful if he were.)
Adolin Kholin was cleverer than Sadeas had given him credit for.
Better at dueling as well. It took skill to win a bout—but it took true mastery to win while making it look the whole time that you were behind.
On the premise that praise from your enemy is at least sincere praise, I suppose this has some value. It will also lead to some further winnings for Adolin, but that’s a whole ’nother story, so I’ll leave it for now. I’ll admit, though, it was… interesting to see this duel through Sadeas’s hostile eyes. Then he goes and spoils whatever shred of goodwill he might have garnered by deciding he can use Adolin’s skill and passion against Dalinar: Can I get him right up to the cliff’s edge, Sadeas thought, then shove him off? Keep your grubby mitts off Adolin, you rat.
So, yeah, this chapter starred my three least favorite characters of the whole series so far. Carl, how did I get so lucky?
Stormwatch: This is eight days after we saw Adolin out on the battlefield, when Jakamav—despite his slimy fake friendship—gave Adolin a helpful suggestion for getting someone else to duel him. Apparently it worked, as Adolin is in the arena with Eranniv in this chapter.
Sprenspotting: The only spren in the chapter are those found in the epigraph, which I find a bit sad-making. Eshonai was so hoping to attract creationspren to develop artform, but Venli sought and found something far, far different.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: The only non-human creature of note (besides Sadeas) is Hatham’s Ryshadium, which Sadeas envies and wishes he could have. HA HA HA Sadeas—no Ryshadium would ever choose you in a million years. I thumb my nose in your general direction. Foul bully. It’s typical, though, that even though he must know about how the Ryshadium choose their riders, he still thinks about how he could get one. He’d probably try to steal one if he had half a chance.
Heraldic Symbolism: I don’t want any Herald associated with Sadeas, but I suppose there’s got to be something. Shalash I tagged as being here to reflect Adolin’s artistry in making himself look less skilled than he really is. Perhaps Taln is here in his role as Soldier, since the chapter opens with battle? That’s all I’ve got, anyway. Or maybe Peter and Brandon are randomly associating Heralds with Adolin just to confuse me.
Okay, probably not.
Shipping Wars: Sadeas and Ialai were totally made for each other, like two weasels. Typical, that the first thing about her that intrigued him was the “tiny bit of blasphemy” inherent in her parents giving her a perfectly symmetrical name, implying perfect holiness. Of course, it’s the blasphemy that drew him, not the holiness. I’m also a highly amused that Sadeas hates his own body and the fact that it has the temerity to actually age and be unattractive now. He firmly believes that most everyone used to lust for him—or his power, which he seems to think are the same thing—and that the loss of his youthfulness is why people look at him differently now. Ugh.
He was dying, step by step. Like every man, true, but he felt that death looming. Decades away, hopefully, but it cast a long, long shadow. The only path to immortality was through conquest.
Got news for you, dude.
I’ve developed a pattern over the last few years: when a character is being unfairly abused, I tend to come to their defense and try to demonstrate how their actions, however unjustifiable in abstract, are at least reasonable from their point of view as a realistically-envisioned human being. Your challenge this week, should you choose to accept it, is to come up with some accusation against Sadeas that is so outrageous I’m forced to come to his defense. Dare ya. Double-dog-dare ya.
Next week, Carl gets to have heart-to-hearts with the conwomen again, as we return to Shallan’s caravan—and her sketchbook. Meanwhile, join us in the comments!
So, did anyone find that brain bleach?
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She enjoys literature, music, science, and math; mostly, she spends her time reading, doing laundry, driving one child to and from school, and homeschooling the other. In no particular order of precedence, of course.
Yeah, you can. Thank the Light it wasn’t the cliff you thought it was. I have a thing for protagonists that are willing to just bloody kill the bastard already. That this instant of it will provide more crunchy fodder for the narrative is a bonus.
I need to bathe in lye after reading about Sadeas.
He and Ialai really are perfect for each other. They’re both clever, ruthless, cruel, greedy, self-centered, and disgusting.
Sorry, Alice, I can’t think of any way to bring you to Sadeas’ defense. Mostly because I don’t want you to.
I used to want to get the first post (or at least settle for the 2nd or 3rd — get on the podium, so to speak). The one problem with this approach: Harder to think of comments since I am only commenting on the original post and maybe one or 2 comments. What does this mean? Nothing – except that now I have not much to say.
Alice, I had the same reaction as you did. A small bit of joy on knowing that Sadeas will never get a Ryshadium.
Your reaction on Sadeas’ comments about killing the Parshmen when they surrendered. I do not care how evil the enemy was. As long as they were somewhat “human”, I think that you should always accept your enemy’s surrender in war. From the bits we saw in WoK, the Parshmen were human. (I understand they may not be biologically human. But I distinguish such an enemy from Trollocs, which is a type of enemy who you would not accept the terms of surrender.)
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Here’s a much funner challenge: help me come up with more insulting things to call Sadeas! But the harder challenge is to keep them clean enough that I’d actually use them in a post. :)
(I had plenty that didn’t fit that last rule…)
This may be for future discussions, but is anyone else nervous about Ialai? She seems just as ruthless as Sadeus, but sneakier and craftier. At least Sadeus was a bit of a known entity to his political enemies. In the future will Ialai be working in the background now to seek revenge? Will she do far worse damage as a widow than if Sadeus had lived? Seems like she’s had a bit too much character development in this book to just disappear as a player in the future books.
Sadeas is so wrong-headed. Pass the brain bleach please, Alice, when it turns up. Double-dog-dare challenge…nope. There’s no defending this guy’s actions.
I’d rather come to the defense of the Parshendi. They are sentient and caring, if non-human, beings. Likely a good bunch if you keep them away from corrupted spren. A little discussion between the species would go a quite a ways toward solving Roshar’s problems. The lack of communication here reminds me of another long fantasy series I read once.
So what’s up with the Thrill? Both Dalinar and Sadeas–polar opposites–have commented on its diminished strength. Seems to be for different reasons, though. Dalinar, in his proto-radiancy, is realizing it’s an evil thing and Sadeas just needs a bigger fix. BUT is there something else going on behind the scenes that we aren’t seeing yet? Like Odium losing sway because a force of good is rising from the ashes of the recreance. Probably just wishful thinking on my part.
Heraldic Symbolism
I’m confused this week. Same heralds as last week with their order of appearence reversed, if that means anything. Sadeas is dependably douchey (is that a word?) so perhaps that’s why Taln gets the primary spot. Adolin’s creativity in duels sounds good for Ash.
AndrewHB @3
Point taken about early comments, but you can always jump back in when someone stirs the pot.
Edit – clarity
Sadeas is a Cotton-Headed Ninny-Muggins!
I thought it was very clever of Brandon to have a couple of chapters be from Sadeas’ viewpoint as it did a couple of things for the story.
1st it added drama/tension to the civil cold war issue. We got to see how clever, conniving, and knowing the other side was and could see that they posed a real threat which made the conlict for our heroes feel more serious and real.
2nd it made me feel like Sades was here to stay which made his death at the hands of Adolin that much more suprising and intense. I’ll admit that I didn’t see his death coming at all.
I’d try to rise to your challenge, but every bad thing I can think of to say about Sadeas is inarguably true. He is a monster, a sociopath with power. The fact that he’s not the frothing at the mouth kind of crazy evil doesn’t diminish this. If anything it makes it worse. He’s smart enough to understand why his actions are evil and just doesn’t care.
The line I really found most gratifying, was that bit where Sadeas felt that somehow, Dalinar had gotten the best of him, and he couldn’t quite pin how or where.
6. Ways
The Thrill weakening…. that is an interesting observation. Before I just assumed he was just feeling his age, but now I wonder.
5. Gavipants
OH, Yes, Ialai, she is going to be a much bigger worry than Sadeas, in many ways. For all their evilness, I do think the two of them cared for each other. And she is going to have a major vendetta against the Kholins.
1. NobleHunter
That is such an overused cliche, to have the hero spare the villian. So I was surprised when Adolin did the only real decent thing, and killed the cremling.
@@.-@ Sadeas is a rank motley-minded apple-john! Or any other Shakespearean insult you can think of. Or Google.
I find Ialai a lot more worrying that Sadeas. Sadeas had the obvious power, the strength of his armies, his Shardblade and Plate, etc etc.
Ialai has a spy network, assassins, and she’s someone everyone in Alethkar is going to completely overlook because she’s a woman. See: Jasnah, Jasnah’s assassin lady at the beginning.
Wetlandernw, check the last sections in WOK again. Both Dalinar and Kaladin note the Parshendi bravery and resourcefulness. Kaladin notes the fact that they leave his wounded men alone. He then tells Dalinar that he doesn’t want his battalion of former bridgemen to fight against the Parshendi because he respects the opposition too much.
@@.-@ Wetlandernw – he is a warthog-faced buffoon, and deserves to be challenged in a duel to the pain!
STBLST @@@@@12 – Yeah, that’s right in the section I was thinking of. That whole Tower battle begins to turn the corner on how the Parshendi are perceived, at least for the reader.
@@@@@ several – I’ve noticed Brandon comment from time to time that he thinks of them all as “people” whether they are human or not – Parshendi, Aimian, human… they’re all people. Not sure about Sadeas, though; he’s questionable. Low-life scum.
And hey – loving me some good insults. Somewhere around my house I have a book on “Invective and Insult” but I was too lazy to look for it when I was writing, so I was stuck with what I could bring up on google in just a few minutes. I just knew the Storm Cellar would be a good source for more and better. :D
Ok I’ll try.
Ialia was following in her name and living a very holy life, she pious, kind, and caring, until she met Sadeas. Do to his influence and charm, he was able to turn this person into the female reflection of himself, he was just that good.
What I want to know is how did Sadeas and Ialai even figure out that the other was so demented and dastardly? I mean, they’re both spiders with tons of secrets. Did she really learn from him, or he from her, or did they have this instance physical attraction somewhat like “I’m evil, you’re evil, let’s get married”? Or is she really evil? She is a product of her environment, after all.
STBLST @12
Like Alice, I don’t recall feeling sympathetic toward the Parshendi at the end WoK. They were the enemy because they killed Gavilar for some partially explained reason that came across as lame at the time. However, I respected them for the reasons you mentioned. Much the same way as I respect certain NFL teams who win the Superbowl, but I don’t like them one little bit (I didn’t say which Superbowl, so don’t run with that). Much has changed after reading WoR! The Alethi aren’t quite as noble as they once seemed (in general–there were several obvious bad eggs from the get-go), the Parshendi aren’t so mysteriously evil as I once thought, and Shallan did a complete 180 IMHO. This is all fallout from the way Brandon expertly builds the story and I expect there will be more opinion shifts in the future (Szeth, for instance).
Fine, I’ll defend Sadeas (up to a point).
What we all tend to do (myself included) is judge the characters in a fantasy novel set on a different world through 21st century first world moral glasses. Which makes perfect sense to us, but it doesn’t mean almost anything in their world.
IF you were to judge Sadeas from his perspective (ignore what you know from other character’s point of view) he would not be so bad at all. Misguided, sure, in the face of what’s actually going on in the world, ambitious, manipulative, but certainly not pure evil.
The Alethi’s highest duty was to prepare warriors for the Crystalline Halls. He and his two best friends were working toward this. And then these creatures show up and kill the greatest of them while rendering the other more or less insane. Wouldn’t you want revenge? And when you see your friend acting strangely and going against beliefs he held dear his whole life (before tragedy happened) wouldn’t you think that is best for him to die with honor, in battle, then to be made a mockery.
Obviously, at some point, he realized that to continue Gavrilar’s work and the Creator’s duty to train soldiers he’ll have to take lead (there was no one else who could take lead really, Dalinar – insane, Elhokar – clearly not worthy).
Again, I’m not saying Sadeas is pure or good or whatever. But he’s only a monster because we know what’s really going on. He does not. It’s arguable how he would react if he knew about the voidbringers, about the desolations, etc.
Sadeas and Ialai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK-6Td9INxM
There is evidence, at least, that the Thrill is caused by one of the Unmade.
“It gives us a further reference point. The Thrill is at least as strong here as it is in Alethkar. Maybe stronger. I will speak to our scholars. Perhaps this will help pinpoint Nergaoul.” (WoR Interlude 14, page 910)
If Nergaoul is moving westward, that might also explain the weakening of the Thrill.
I can’t think of anything to push you to defend him, but I can see some redemption.
Going back to the Gavilar’s assassination, he has been focused on the long term view of what is best for Alethkar. If he stands to personally benefit, that’s an added bonus. At this point, so little has been done with the Vengance Pact, that he no longer sees the Kholin clan as capable of being the leadership that the Alethi need to form a true kingdom. If you know that a creature is injured and suffering, and that there is nothing you can do to heal it, the right thing to do is to put it down. And so the Kholin clan must be put down. Every step, every action, is in the service of rebuilding a better and stronger Alethkar.
Let’s look at his biggest crimes:
1) The Gemhearts – this became his focus, but that was only because the Kholins appeared too afraid to move forward. That meant stagnage camps, and that meant the need for money. Gemhearts are money and keeping his camps supplied was essential.
2) The Bridgemen – yes, their lives were wasted, but it was necessary. In seeking gemhearts, is it better than his people should all suffer slow starvation or that some be sacrificed? In any battle, you have to calculate the value of a given troop – attracting arrows to the bridges not only saved money, but saved countless lives. If the arrows had hid soldiers, once the soldiers are gone, the bridgemen die anyway.
3) The Betrayal – Dalinar is going nuts, Adolin is a hot head, and the King is paranoid. Not ideal leadership. Sadeas has experience, skill, and the will to unite his people the same way Gavilar did. The difference is that he wouldn’t open himself to assassination.
Every villain, even down to Hitler and Lucifer, is a hero in their own story. And the road to Hell is and always has been paved with good intentions.
These are both doubly true for Sadeas.
19. rcaywood
That was a true work of art. It brought tears to my eyes.
Gavipants @5, ZenBossanova @9, and SunDriedRainbow @11 re Ialai post WoR. I agree she will want vengence against the Kholins (esp. Adolin) once she finds out that Adolin killed Sadeas. (For what it is worth, I think that in the next book we will learn that Ialai either saw Adolin kill Sadeas or one of Sadeas’ soldiers or servants saw the act and will tell Ialai.)
Nevertheless, I doubt how much of a threat Ialai will be. Alethi society places the women in a background role. They support their husband (or father or brother if the father’s wife is deceased or the brother is unmarried and head of the family). It is very hard for a widow to be a political force on her behalf. After Galivar’s death, Navani lost a lot of her influence. What little she has comes because she does not care what others think of her and that she is dating the King’s uncle (who himself is perceived by many to be [if not in fact] the power behind the throne).
Unless Ialai and Sadeas has a son who is old enough (and respected enough) to lead the House, then there runs the real possibility of the King naming a new Highlord to replace Sadeas. The other possibility is that Ialai can quickly become the wife of a Highlord who is willing and able to oppose (or at least give serious problems) to Dalinar.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
23. AndrewHB
Good points, but the forms of power that make Ialai the most dangerous, are all secretive and in the dark.
Further, she seems to me, to be the kind of person who gets ahold of power, and does not let go willingly. We will see more of her.
@9 though Adolin went a tad beyond failing to spare the villain when he outright assassinated him. I’m not complaining but I think we’re going to get a pretty good look at why it wasn’t such a good idea.
The cliche that drives me crazy is when the hero saves the villain. I’m a lot more sympathetic to refusing murder than I am to saving a monster. Let them drown or whatever, saving their life is just going to get more people killed.
In Uncanny X-Men #218 (I had to look it up – thanks Google), Polaris calls Havok a chauvinist worm. When he tries to correct her that the term is chauvinist pig, she replies “Worm, buster. I like pigs.”
This is sort of how I feel about both challenges. Coming up with worse insults for Sadeas is unfair to whatever I compare him to. Pond scum is better than Sadeas. Squished roach guts on my hand is better. Accidentally eating baby feces is better. (My sister apparently did this recently when my niece had a stomach bug? *is horrified*)
Likewise, challenging anyone to defend Sadeas – even in the name of, erm, an intellectual exercise – erg. I don’t want to.
I can offer these two thoughts.
1) Even as the Parshendi have been progressively humanized, Sadeas has been progressively dehumanized.
Re: the “humanity” of Parshendi, as @6 and following, note that per Brandon, Parshendi can breed with humans – as evidenced by the Horneaters and Herdazians. Which is weird.
Whatever good we might have said about Sadeas – he and Dalinar were (once) friends, he sincerely disagrees about the best course for the kingdom, etc. – have been stripped away at this point. That’s what I felt when I read his admission that he’d have gone after Dalinar at some point regardless. Yep, of course he would.
Of course, his treatment of the Bridgemen last book should have been enough to tell us that. Judge a man, not by his treatment of his peers and (supposed) friends, but by his treatment of his (supposed) inferiors. That’s one light in which Sadeas is starkly different from Dalinar and Adolin.
2) Dalinar’s visions might have been legitimate grounds for Sadeas to oppose him, believing him to be insane…which is why his continued opposition once they reach Urithiru is unconscionable. That’s why Adolin’s decision to kill him feels, sort of…right.
I mean, we’ll talk about it when we get there, and I have ambivalence about it – not least because I believe Ialai and her spy network will figure out the killer, it’s not like Adolin had a *plan*. But I *should* condemn Adolin’s action. But is it really murder – or just recognition that Sadeas was warring on them, and wouldn’t quit or surrender or stop until he was made to stop? It’s one thing for Sadeas to ignore Amaram trying to get him to look at the big picture, in this chapter. It’s another thing after the Everstorm has come and Voidbringers have returned for Sadeas to *still* be cynically working to undermine Dalinar. So it’s sort of… “right, then, that’s enough of you.”
Plus I’d been wanting to climb into the book and strangle him for ages.
Re: Amaram. He at *least* is focused on a bigger picture. But when you consider that the bigger picture he’s looking at is one where he’s actively *trying* to trigger a new Desolation…
I don’t know which one I can’t stand more.
Hey Mods! This is apparently a technical rather than a moderation thing, but I’m not sure who to contact. It looks like the names on all the comments have disappeared. Comments there, but nothing to indicate who’s making each comment. I’m flagging this comment (my own) so someone will see this and let the right folks know.
Re: the (apparent) weakening of the Thrill, I think we have several distinct things going on. One, as in the quote pointed out @20, the Thrill is attributed to the Unmade Nergaoul by Taravangian’s scholars, who conclude that its influence is as strong or stronger in Jah Keved than in Alethkar. That does raise the possibility of it being geographically tied to Nergaoul’s location, and so it could weaken if Nergaoul moved. I wonder too if Nergaoul might not shift its influence to the Stormform Parshendi – who after all seemed rather strongly in the grip of Thrill-like emotions.
But that phenomenon is distinct from the weakening we see in Dalinar and Adolin, who both are growing as human beings, gaining in wisdom and compassion. Those things imo make them more resistant to Odium’s influence, and that of Odium-spren.
Sadeas, on the other hand, is an addict. He just wants more and more of the Thrill. And as his disgust at his own aging and weakening sets in, he needs more from the Thrill of battle. I also think it’s the growth of his ambition. This wouldn’t make him more resistant to Odium- if there’s anybody primed for Odium’s influence, it’s Sadeas – but his ambition makes him less easily satisfied, drives him to more and grander forms of destruction.
By the way, Sadeas – boo hoo. I’m so sorry that your genocidal war isn’t *exciting* enough to keep your interest anymore.
Idiot.
26. chaplainchris1
That is why I think Adolin will be in a KR group, that is willing to break rules, if it is the right thing to do.
Hi Chris! I’ve just checked in several browsers and asked a colleague to check too, and everything looks fine for us. Can you try cleaning out your browser cache and temporary internet files, and see if that fixes it for you?
Oh Sadeas…
Could your mid-life crisis of evil have waited until after the incoming return of the apocalypse?
No?
Well darn.
While personally I have some issues with what will happen to him via Adolin at the end, I like how it gets developed through these early Sadeas viewpoints: Sadeas sees Adolin becoming more and more like the Blackthorn that he remembers, but can’t help but think maybe he can use this to his advantage. Just push Adolin over the cliff at the right time and Sadeas wins right?
Pity for Sadeas he didn’t remember the fear of what Adolin could do in the end of Part 3. That was a pretty clear warning…
As for Ialai showing up, I got that she’s the way Sadeas’s threat will continue into the third book – it’s not likely a coincidence we first found out about Sadeas’s evil, has-a-spy-and-assassin-ring wife in the same book where both Jasnah in the prologue and Shallan throughout demonstrate the very real dangers of shadowy networks.
Re: the Thrill: If the Thrill moved to Jah Keved, could that have something to do with Szeth taking the Black Sphere and hiding it … somewhere?
Re: the humanity of Parshendi: This has been bugging me. Isn’t the definition of a species a collection of creatures with the ability to create fertile offspring? So if the Parshendi and humans can breed, and the result (Horneaters, etc.) can reproduce, then don’t they belong to the same species? Or has there been evolution involved? Shardic influence (like Kandra or Koloss on Scadrial?)
Re: Sadeas. Sadeas is easily the most evil onscreen character in the Stormlight Archive so far. Kaladin is wrong. Amaram is not worse than Sadeas, because Amaram still does what he thinks is best, even if he is willing to do some pretty bad things along the way. Sadeas simply wants power, and there is nothing more to it.
Re: Sadeas and Ialai: I agree she will be a problem in the future. Also note that Sadeas did spend time with whores (remember what the King’s Wit said). So Sadeas and Ialai are not as close as they could be.
Insults (I just typoed insluts, and was reminded of Wit’s quote I just mentioned above): Mine is a bit nerdy and esoteric. Let’s just say that Sadeas’ quality as a human being on a scale from negative infinity to positive infinity is Negative Lambda. The Lambda I reference here is an element of the Long Line. I won’t go through all the details (Wikipedia search Ordinals or the Long Line for those). Suffice it to say that Lambda is a higher order of infinity than the one you are accustomed to.
Sadeas is just plain Trash. Nobody wants Trash.
Edit: I just typoed “typoed”
His wife is a product of her environment and Sadaes is not? Remeber the culture revies fighting and a peceful together kingdom which is what Dalinar wanted to make wouldn’t get practice fighting. Remember also the thrill was created by an Evil god. This seems even more direct influence by Satan than in Christianity and I have had problems there with giving blame to people for devil influenced actions before. If his wife gets some benefit of the doubt he should to, simply being a woman should make no difference.
That said, yeah Seades certainly represents black straight evil in this story which is why I am glad honestly he is gone. He was too simple and too much a call back to WOT which I always thought was too simple a story. Grey like in Sanderson usually, and GRRM is always much more realistic and ineresting than stark black and white.
Alice:
I thumb my nose in your general direction.
Ha, Monty Python and the Holy Grail! Brought a smile to my face. Though I notice you are too much of a lady to quote the actual phrase.
Oh and the Phines was hilarious good find … wish I could make myself not stuck up enough to watch that show as it looks like it might be fun beyond the for kids aspect. As an anime viewer though this song I like better …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEBfRMKnyXg
Nobody is a mere product of their environment. Only an epiphenomenological zombie is a product of its environment. That is my side of that particular philosophical debate, and I will leave it there (probably doesn’t belong here, right?)
32. Xaladin
I take your trans-infinte cardinality and raise you plus one.
@37
If you actually mean cardinality instead of ordinality, +1 does nothing. A bijection still exists. You need to raise the cardinality to a power of 2.
I meant, from aleph n to aleph n+1, but to be honest, I always get cardinality and ordinality mixed up, which is kind of unforgiveable when it comes to transinfinites.
@@@@@ ZenBossanova: so you didn’t mean Negative (Lambda plus one), but Negative (the first ordinal with the cardinality of the power set of the reals)?
Both options could be seen as a raise.
BWS, being a masterful story teller, doesn’t create simple characters. The heroes (and heroines) have flaws, while the bad actors have some good points. Hence, Sadeas is depicted as loyal to Gavilar and even volunteers to wear the royal robes unarmed in order to divert the assassin from the real king. He was a genuine friend of the earlier (pre-assassination) Dalinar, the Blackthorn. However, he despises what Dalinar has become and seeks to remove him in order to advance his vision of Alethi society. He also harbors an affection for Adolin whom he sees as the successor to the Blackthorn of old. It’s an odd type of affection that doesn’t preclude Adolin’s demise if that will eliminate Dalinar. Yet, he is unwarily frank in telling Adolin of his intentions. As if Adolin must be trained to understand Sadeas’ view of the rules and mechaisms of attaining power. Overall, however, he is an obnoxious character who intentionally sacrafices others for his advancement.
This is not entirely a defense of Sadeas, but his most evil act (abandoning Dalinar) was only possible with the obedience of his entire army, the officers and soldiers of which are conscripts but not slaves. Not only did all of them comply with the tactical, but not particularly ethical orders to abandon their allies at the Tower, but they seemed to have planned it in advance, and at best were partners in crime with their highprince. And they all would have gotten away with it except for the brave disobedience of his actual slaves, but only after a change-of-heart by their own leader.
And as repulsive as Sadeas is, at least he doesn’t murder axe-hound puppies or charitable cobblers in cold blood.
And as repulsive as Sadeas is, at least he doesn’t murder axe-hound puppies or charitable cobblers in cold blood.
Well, that’s… a good point.
Also? The maths went way over my head a while back. Was a time I could have kept up, but my grad-level maths have long since been buried in disuse and elementary-school-mom-help. *sigh* But it’s fun to read anyway. :)
32. Xaladin
This is the best suggestion I have seen yet, for the identity of the black sphere. Szeth would have been on his way back to
Taravangianthe Parshendi (which is towards Jah Keved) anyway, so that movement makes sense.And as loathesome as Sadeas is, 42. WinespringBrother is right. Others like Darkness/Nalan are worse – he should know better. Or Taravangian. Or Odium/Rayse.
Just a couple of comments.
I definitely agree that Sadeas is not the Stereotypical Evil Sociopath. Yes, he’s almost undoubtedly a sociopath and a power addict. But he was an integral part of Gavilar’s rise to power, which was all presumably done for good reasons. In fact, one could argue that Dalinar was the most “evil” one in that trio. And many of Sadeas’ actions have legitimate reasons. I disagree with his methods, though, and not just because they’re so brutal. I just don’t think they’re effective. He’d be much better off appearing to side with Dalinar (though distancing himself from the extremism) and refocusing on the Vengeance Pact, then having Dalinar and Elhokar assassinated. Then he’d be the only one left of the Big Three, and the obvious person to take at least a Regency. His desire to take down Dalinar and rebuild Alethkar according to the vision the three of them originally had is understandable, if wrong. But his methods just don’t seem the best to me.
Second, I think we were firmly primed to sympathize with the Parshendi from the beginning. Szeth thought of them as alien and strange, but honorable. Their assassins wear white, etc. And Kaladin was horrified at what he found at the Shattered Plains. What they were doing was neither honorable warfare nor fulfilling the Vengeance Pact. Then, as mentioned before, we get a lot of good empathy moments towards the end. And now Eshonai. Personally, I was saying “nooooooooooooo!” in my head the whole time, thinking they shouldn’t be fighting. However, I recognize the marvelous craft with which their “humanity” was slowly introduced and heightened. Marvelous work!
Oh, and Amaram is way worse. He’s not even doing it for his country or for the memory of his friends. He’s doing it based on misguided religious ideals. And he’s not just killing soldiers or a few political figures. He’s willing to take a MASSIVE chunk out of the world’s population and throw them back to the stone age. Oh, or just end the world if it doesn’t go right…
Regarding Nergaoul, I assumed that (s)he/it was moving west because there is now actually more killing in Jah Kheved and elsewhere than there is at the Shattered Plains.
P.S. Am I allowed to use negative aleph-omega? Or, perhaps, negative aleph-n for an arbitrarily large value of n? If so, I apply it to Odium, not Sadeas. Or maybe Thaidakar, or Taravangian, or someone! Gah, I don’t know who the badguy is and it’s frustrating me! Why does Brandon have to be such a good author!?!?!?!? Oh, wait, I love that he’s an amazing author… Okay, in that case, I apply the positive of the above cardinalities as an ordinal number pertaining to Brandon Sanderson’s awesomeness.
Shoot, I’m so long-winded…sorry!
Here I defend my assertion that Sadeas is easily the most evil onscreen character we have seen on Roshar.
Sadeas is worse than Amaram. We have seen inside Amaram’s head, and at least Amaram thinks what he is doing is justified and not evil. Even if he is wrong. It’s all about his intent (though yes, he is pretty bad).
The same goes for Taravangian and probably Nalan too. Nalan might also have a sickness of mind to take into account.
I don’t consider Rayse an onscreen character at this point. Don’t forget that he might just be driven by the Intent of the Shard he holds. However, according to the letter in The Way of Kings, Rayse was already a dangerous individual before taking up Odium. It is possible that he is more evil than Sadeas, especially given that he “should know better.”
The Only thing Sadeas cares about is that he is in power. He has no greater motives. Especially after Urithiru is found.
Yes, Sadeas used to not be as bad. That is why he is so evil. He chose to become what he did become, fully knowing what was happening.
Sadeas is the epitome of Evil.
@@@@@ I~theBeard: I am afraid the game of “my number is higher” is one of those games where the last person to move is “winning,” and since there is no way to prohibit your opponent from taking a turn (i.e. time limit, a rule that determines when someone has already won, some sort of limitation that potentially makes moving impossible, etc.), it follows there is no winning strategy.
And I am not sure about “aleph omega;” I’d have to research that. If it exists, it is not “the last.”
Georg Cantor believed that the highest infinity (which does not exist) was, in some unknown mysterious paradoxical way, God. (whatever that means, I’ll just leave it at that)
EDIT: I have looked up aleph omega, and it is a term, but doesn’t mean what I thought you were going for. However, it appears any ordinal may be used in the aleph series. See the Wikipedia article for “Aleph number” under the section titled Aleph-alpha (NOT Aleph-omega).
If we’re going to argue evil depends solely on intent, Sadeas would probably be in almost the same camp as Szeth – yes, Sadeas wants power and conquest for the sake of power and conquest, but culturally that is what being a modern Alethi is all about. It’s why he’s the opposite to Dalinar, representing everything that has grown wrong and corrupted of the Alethi while Dalinar represents making them back to the noble protectors they were long ago.
What makes Sadeas different from all the other main villains we have so far is that he is, without a doubt, the most petty and small-minded. Both Nalan and Taravangian clearly have endgames focused around the final Desolation/Everstorm – even if we don’t like what they’re doing and think they’re wrong, they’re working for the same endgame as our protagonists. Sadeas isn’t: he’s playing a game for a small piece of the entire pie, and the fact he is still such a large obstacle to our heroes when the entire apocalypse is happening just makes him much more frustrating than the other antagonistic forces.
I don’t think I could judge anyone on who’s the most “evil” so far considering we’ve still only seen a little of Taravangian and Nalan, but I think Sadeas is the most frustrating to us as readers: he has (human but) relatively tiny and petty ambitions out of a group of antagonists who seem to all be working more toward the same goal as our protagonists.
@Xaladin: Your comment about species:
That’s the more traditional old-school term for how species are differentiated, and the one that is most easily implemented. It doesn’t always work of course (but then when does anything in science? that theory of everything is still waiting), but lately there’s been more of a push for species to be determined based on the shared amount of genetic material they have, since that gives us a better picture of phylogenetic descent and avoids some of the issues of animals that, for example, can breed but do not in a natural environment (for example because they have distinct niches within the same area).
Interesting chapter. Having Sadeas’s perspective of the duel was enlightening, especially how he came to realize Adolin was playing at losing. The Sadeas/Adolin relationship in interesting. Whereas it is obvious Adolin hates Sadeas, Sadeas’s own feelings towards Adolin are less clear. He calls him “son” on several occasions and even tries to goat the boy into betraying his father. I have always felt Sadeas came to see Adolin as a man throughout WoR as opposed to a boy in WoK. He recognized his old friend into his son and saw how the kid could grow out to be another Blackthorn. Whereas the idea pleased him, it also scared him. The Blackthorn was terrible: he did not wish to oppose its offspring, hence Adolin needs to go before he decides to embrace this new role. He failed. He waited too long.
I have always wondered what the Sadeas’s true intentions were with Adolin. Did they wish him dead or sway him to their side? I actually loved Sadeas as a villain. I wished we saw the whole of his plan, but I have hope his wife will carry it out. Will she guess who the culprit is? Will she target Adolin directly, sending assassins to slay him, putting poison into his food?
@@@@@ Wetlandernw
I would think that you would be bothered by the hammer smashing regardless of the enemy.
Well, I’d certainly like to think so! The idea of a group of fighters (even if they’re perceived as “the bad guys/the enemy”) laying down their weapons and then being slaugthered anyway… that’s just wrong no matter who they are. So I think I’d have been bothered by it in any case. If I hadn’t known what a scuzzbucket Sadeas was already, or hadn’t had a chance to see the Parshendi in a sympathetic light, I suspect I might not be quite so appalled; as it is, I want to smash him. Severely. All about the head and shoulders.
Perhaps a few other places, too.
Sorry, I just do not agree with Sadeas as being worse than any others. He’s just the villain we know, the one that we’ve been up-close-and-personal with. Even Szeth hasn’t killed anyone we actually cared about, except for a few bridgemen. Sadeas is the “near” villain, a lesser one who can be defeated fairly early in a story, but whom we, the readers and the charactes, have very good reasons to hate.
But don’t let that make you think he’s all that bad. His motives are not solely for gain. He’s working for the good of Alethkar, as he sees it. (And, in the absence of the whole picture, his perspetive isn’t bad — it’s even the same one that Gavilar and Dalinar had earlier.) Also, he is acting in the culturally expected way. (Though I hesitate to compare him to Szeth, despite seeing the parallel, because Sadeas shows little sorrow at being forced to play this role. But even then, he does show a little sorrow, after his own fashion.) Finally, his actions can be construed to be honorable, after the Alethi fashion. He’s just not that “evil.” Only marginally more-so than all the Alethi. Of course, I think that Alethi culture has definitely slid into a moderate “evil” position.
Where Sadeas makes such a hateful villain is how slimy he is. He’s willing to sidle up, pretend friendship, and then commit heinous acts. And he’s willing to slaughter those he considers his enemies or allow the slaughter of those he considers his inferiors, regardless of whether either group deserves it. But he’s just being Alethi.
Anyway, yes, I absolutely hate Sadeas. He’s disgusting and rank, worth less than the crem on those boots that Shallan st–appropriated. But he, just like all the other “badguys” we’ve seen so far, is just doing what he thinks is best. He does have a lofty goal, the re-reunification of Alethkar. He’s just doing it in such a gross, twisted way, and disregarding the transformation his friends are going through.
SA is, by the way, an incredible example of one of my favorite literary themes. There are just so few pure badguys! Taravangian, the Ghostbloods, the Parshendi, even down to Gav, Sadeas, and Shallan’s father. They’re neither the stereotypical evil-laughing, chin-stroking villains nor the equally stereotypical tragic villains. They’re mostly (except for Szeth) people who have made choices to be who they are. But you can understand those choices, even if you don’t agree with them.
P.S. The whole idea of an arbitrarily large number is to “win” the “pick the highest number” game. It’s a convention that describes a situation where there is no highest (or usually closest) number; I’m just asserting that I can always pick a higher (or closer) number. That, in itself, is enough to procede with in most situations.
Just a note in case anyone happened to miss it – the cover for the sequel to Alloy of Law, called Shadows of Self, is out. And I am really digging the Victorianpunk vibe.
The last number called was aleph omega. While poorly defined mathematically, it is the largest possible infinity. So, actually the best way to end the highest number game, is to call that one, just as long as you don’t have pedents claiming infinity and transinfinites are not numbers.
Can I just try, “What you just said, plus one?”
:P
(I only say these things because I know you can’t reach me…)
Ahhhh the Shadows of Self cover, I must resist getting excited already, it’s too early for that hype train…although I’m already super hyped for the third SA book and it’s even further away.
@iamthebeard: Very good points, and why I didn’t want to dwell on comparing Sadeas and Szeth too long, just to point out that in both their cases it is a cultural matter. But of course Szeth is much more complex: he has thought on how his culture would force him to do what he doesn’t want to do, while in Sadeas’s case he just is vindicated in acting out how he is by his culture.
I also had a thought that I found rather terrifying: Sadeas of course mentioned that he went and slaughtered every Parshendi that had tried to surrender, but he never mentioned going to extreme lengths to hide it. So, is that just because he didn’t even need to think about those machinations (I imagine scheming is second nature to him), or was it because any of his men seeing this found it so typical and unworthy of noticing that he was able to do so with impunity? Just how inhuman is Alethi warfare when it isn’t directed by someone like Dalinar who is learning to be better? Not sure how much blame of that can be put on Nergaoul, although if Jah Keved is any indication there is something sinister about the Thrill that makes warfare even worse.
I’m listening through WoK again and just finished Dalinar’s vision in which he fights the midnight essence (chapter 19, Starfalls), and I was struck that he feels the Thrill in the vision. Was that the Thrill bleeding through into his vision from the “real world?” Or was the Thrill a part of the vision itself?
@55 re Parshendi surrendering – I think that since the Parshendi killed their king, on the eve of an agreement between the two nations, for reasons that the Alethi and we don’t know, a king that seemingly was beloved by his people, and that also given Elhokar’s weak leadership in the face of this disaster, it seems to me that Sadeas’ desire to take no prisoners is reasonable. There are no Rules of War, they don’t even know why they are fighting, and six years in to this, the passion and pain that they felt over the assassination of their king has diminished and morphed into this contest with the Parshendi to capture gemhearts, especially since they have not been able to crush the Parshendi (at least in their perspective).
@@@@@ Zen, I was momentarily confused. Yeah, aleph-omega totally exists but we have no clue what it is.
Whatever it is, Sadeas is negative that.
RE: the Thrill. Perhaps Odium doesn’t care so much that his enemies aren’t being helped in battle so much as that they are experiencing hate and odium.
@thepupxpert: I would agree except that I doubt most of the Alethi cared too much about avenging Gavilar – to me it was them getting an excuse to go into full-on war, which they then dropped for competing for spoils. Sadeas is, except for Dalinar, the most likely to care about Gavilar, but he remembers it as making sure they would give him and his men a proper fight (I’d argue if he really wanted vengeance he’d have just let them take prisoners and then slaughtered them later, outside of view of the Parshendi – he doesn’t know they have spies). You’re right that they have no Rules of War, which makes sense considering the tech level, but I think it goes a step further: this isn’t just not accepting surrender, it’s executing the Parshendi who tried in cold blood where the others could see.
Considering we’ve also seen the devastation the Thrill wrought in Jah Keved, I think they’re far beyond regular bloodthirst, and it makes me wonder how much they lose due to it. If the Thrill is some kind of Odium-produced influence (common theory is that it might be an Unmade, Nergaoul if Taravangian is to be believed), it’s a sneaky way to weaken a people, escalating their conflicts so that the loss of life on each side is increased.
That said we’re missing how the Alethi were during that time: we know a couple perspectives of when Gavilar died, and then we jumped to the current time when the war settled into the contest for gemhearts. It’d be interesting to see just how quickly it turned…maybe Dalinar’s flashback, whenever it happens? Although I’d rather see more of his own juicy past…
The more I think about it, the more I think that what was in that black sphere Gavalar had, was Nergaoul or whichever Unmade was behind the Thrill.
The only really non-negative thing I can say about Sadeas is … that his childhood probably sucked. Just like Lin Davar, I’m sure if we saw things that made Sadeas what he is, we’d pity him even if we still felt like he needs to die ASAP.
It’s interesting to compare people’s various metrics of evil-ness. We’ve got at least one of each of the following as a major/medium villain in this story:
1) knows that he’s being evil, but thinks it’s worth it for non-selfish reasons
2) doesn’t really have a choice but to be pure evil, because he’s a supernatural entity rather than a person with a conscience
3) convinces himself that his evil actions aren’t evil thru rationalization and hypocrisy
4) knows that he’s being evil, but doesn’t question that the values he’s learned from society are more important than his conscience
5) doesn’t care that he’s evil, because he doesn’t really believe “right” and “wrong” are things; only self-interest
6) thinks that he’s not evil because he’s completely bonkers upstairs
7) knows that she’s being evil, but has consciously decided that self-interest is more important than right vs. wrong
8) knows deep down that he’s doing the wrong thing, but he’s too consumed by trauma and heartbreak and addiction to do anything about it
Which of these is really the most evil? (Now that I’ve spelled them out abstractly, I actually think description #7 seems the worst to me …)
@23: Oh geez, what if Ialai and Amaram get married? Yikes! Fortunately not likely to happen since Amaram has already gotten his political clout demolished and is no longer a strong contender to take over for Sadeas as Highprince.
Surrender among the Alethi might not even be a consideration. Take the tower fight at the end of TWoK, Dalinar did not even consider surrendering he was going to fight till death. As mentioned previously we are viewing this story through a selective prism. In our own history we have had people, civilizations that would not surrender, i.e. Japanese during WW II. The Japanese did accept the allies surrender but from the war stories told by the POWs they were not treated well. Only when presented with an unimaginable power they could not possible hope to resist were they forced to surrender to save their civilization.
Here’s a loony theory – the smoke in the black sphere is the same smoke as that which emits from Nightblood.