Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Alice watched madness blossom in two interlude chapters. This week, I watch science (and maybe also some madness?) flourish on the Shattered Plains. I also make an announcement. You’ll get to it in time.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. This week’s chapter also contains spoilers for Carl’s career trajectory…
The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 35: The Multiplied Strain of Simultaneous Infusion
Points of View: Adolin, Navani
Location: The Shattered Plains
Symbology: Duelist, Kalak, Battar
IN WHICH Adolin throws his Shardblade and it turns into mist, belying his martial discipline; he maintains a paranoid insistence to keep wearing his Plate, forever; Bridgemen are suspected; Soulcasters are observed making a wall out of air; Ardents are questioned about the powers held by Radiants; Navani tests a new technology; Through the power of weights, pullies, and magic rocks, a platform is made to hover in mid-air; Adolin approaches and points out that the platform is floating in mid-air, noble mind of science that he is; Navani speaks of further plans “the Ardents” are devising, not allowed to do science on her own out in the open; Adolin points out how she selectively accepts binding traditions, then takes her to an important meeting.
Quote of the Week:
“Aunt?” he said, voice strained. “A glove?”
“Far more practical,” she said, holding up her safehand and wiggling the fingers. “Oh, don’t look like that. Darkeyed women do it all the time.”
“You’re not darkeyed.”
“I’m the dowager queen,” Navani said. “Nobody cares what in Damnation I do. I could prance around completely nude, and they’d all just shake their heads and talk about how eccentric I am.”
This chapter shows how complicated and fascinating the navigation of Alethi gender norms can be. Navani, a craftswoman and scientist, doesn’t have the latitude to bind up one of her hands in a sleeve, and she uses her position as dowager queen to get away with the massive breach of etiquette that is wearing a glove. As a widow, she completed the marriage obligation, and as the queen mother she retains power by proximity to the throne, but as neither widow nor queen mother are positions that have formal requirements of her, she finds latitude in the system to act how she wishes. Strange, then, that she doesn’t also operate as a scientist outright, rather than playing patron to the ardentia.
Commentary: Adolin cuts a dashing figure as a gentleman paranoiac. Having been caught without Shardplate once, he’s decided to never take it off, ever. His other readiness protocols include never sleeping and twitching manically at all signs of aggression. He vacillates between giving his bodyguards grudging respect due to proximity to Kaladin, who was quite useful in saving his father’s life, and swinging on the secret of Kaladin’s powers and peculiarities with renewed suspicion. He’s ruining himself for any kind of usefulness.
How similar he is to Dalinar! The Highprince also watched an assassination he was powerless to prevent, although he was even more unready than his son, and he totally reinvented himself through his feelings of guilt and shame. The Kholin boys certainly make good use of their personality collapses. Sadly, I don’t think the pressures Adolin is under are going to end up making him as much better a person as Dalinar became. His confrontation with Sadeas at the end of this book leads me to believe he’s on a far darker path than that.
Adolin is deeply suspicious of Kaladin, and though I don’t think there’s a conscious link here, it’s because of Kaladin’s proto-Radiant status. At the end of the book, his brother and father are both becoming Radiants, as is his betrothed, as might be both of his cousins. My speculation is that, as the only mundane member of his immediate family, Adolin might grow resentful of these Radiant powers, and that resentment will be a perfect weakness for Odium to exploit. Dude loves hate, y’all. Just loves it.
This chapter plays setup for Shallan’s arrival, and with it the gathering of all our principal players to the same location for the first time. As such, it is adjacent to great importance! A very nice beginning to the third part of the novel.
Sprenspotting: Remember the elderly couple of ardents in The Way of Kings who experimented with flamespren and weird culinary pursuits? Well, they’ve made their return! “. . . changed even when he was in the other room,” Rushu mumbled, flipping to another page. “Repeatable and measurable. Only flamespren so far, but so many potential other applications . . .” It seems that scientific knowledge is being broadly disseminated, and a Quantum Spren Theory is sure to result. As we can see resulting in Navani’s experiments in quantum-spren-pairing-levitation. SCIENCE!
Ars Mechanica: SCIENCE!!!
Ars Arcanum: We get our first look at Soulcasters, the people, Soulcasting, and boy howdy are they ever weird:
Soulcasters. It was the word for both the people who performed the art and the fabrials they used. Kadash was not one himself; he wore the standard grey robes instead of red, his head shaven, face accented by a square beard. He noticed Adolin, hesitated briefly, then bowed his head in respect. Like all of the ardents, Kadash was technically a slave.
That included the five Soulcasters. Each stood with right hand to breast, displaying a sparkling fabrial across the back of the palm. One of the ardents glanced at Adolin. Stormfather—that gaze wasn’t completely human, not any longer. The woman’s skin had hardened to something like stone, smooth, with fine cracks. It was as if the person were a living statue.
Soulcasters who use fabrials to do what Radiants can do through nahel bonds clearly pay a high price. Perhaps they channel the transformative power through their own bodies, absorbing the minerals of the expended gemstones through the power of the replicated Transformation surge. However it happens, it makes Jasnah’s plan to pretend she had a Soulcaster fabrial seem… well, not suited for the long game. You can only go so long pretending to be a Soulcaster before someone asks why you don’t have stone skin yet.
Heraldic Symbolism: Kalak is Resolute/Builder, while Battar is Wise/Careful, and the mix of those four attributes provides an interesting backdrop to Navani’s experiments defying the forces of gravity(spren).
Well, I suppose it’s time for that announcement I mentioned in the introduction. Next week, Alice will bring Shallan into the presence of the Kholins, and launch our heroes towards the eventual endgame. I will not, however, be returning the following week to see that progress continue. This will be my last chapter of the Stormlight Archive reread. It was with great joy that I joined Michael Pye on the Way of Kings reread last year (in fact, a year ago this Saturday), and helping our reread community grow and flourish has been a labor of love. However, as my duties to the Tor.com novella program continue to grow, I’ve found it impossible to keep giving the reread as much time and attention as it needs. And while Brandon Sanderson’s epic saga will always hold a privileged place in my heart, as an editor I want to bring out new stories to sit beside it in our pantheonic library.
I leave you all in Alice Arneson’s ever-capable hands, and hope to stop in every now and then in the comments, to see where she’s taken the reread. Thank you for a year of your time and attention. It has been my Honor.
Carl Engle-Laird has been, and always shall be, your friend. He is an editorial assistant for Tor.com, where he acquires and edits short fiction, novellas, and maybe someday novels. He would say that it is storming on his face, but Skyface might disapprove. You can follow him on Twitter.
Or Adolin could just become a Distbringer.
Thanks for all the hard work, Carl! I’ve really enjoyed your analysis.
@1 or take a level in sass and become a dissbringer. [/funwithtypos]
Oh how do I disagree with you Carl on Adolin soon to fall prey to Odium… He is a much better man then you give him credit for and Dalinar is a much worst man then you take him for.
I think the amount of stress Adolin is under on a day to day basis should not be overlooked. He has defined himself as the caretaker and the protector of his family, the one who has to remain strong for them, the one who repetively hides his own anxiety to present them an over-confident facade, but deep down Adolin is doubting he can succeed and raging over his own powerlessness.
How else he is supposed to react when shaken out of his certitude he could maintain this role he has crafted for himself? I do think this chapter is very telling of his inside personality, the one we have rarely glimpsed at. He directly goes to the extreme and takes the decision to be on guard, 24/7. Who needs sleep anyway? Who goes out of their mind and start to act completely irrationally upon losing their bearings? Anxious people.
What we see here in this chapter is pure anxiety in all its irrational glory thus confirming something I have suspected since WoK: Adolin is a lot more nervous and anxious then he lets on. As long as he remains in his confort zone, he controls it, but push him out of it and he fails at throwing his Shardblade, a feat his baby brother managed with ease while on the verge of panic.
So there we have it, as they struggle through their break-downs: Kaladin is depressed, Shallan forgets, Renarin beats himself down, Dalinar gets more rigid… What does Adolin do? Turn into an anxiety ridden ball of nerves.
For me, killing Sadeas simply was the continuity of the role he has endorsed: protect and care for his family, because if he don’t, nobody else will.
I don’t think Adolin can become a dustbringer @Walker. Dustbringers are all about Justice and obeying the Law. After what happens at the end of the book between Adolin and Sadeaus, i don’t think he would qualify. Adolin could use the honor blade, Kaladin took from Szeth at the end of the book, and have some Radiant abilities.
Carl, as you know… I will deeply miss you here!! Thanks for the opportunity to work with you; I’ll hope to do all honor to the Archive and to your legacy. But I know you’re going to do a great job on all that new work you’re editing, so we’ll have to be content with that… and hope to see the occasional input (or Grimoire entry!!!!) when you have time. Thank you!
QOTW was one of my favorite snippets from this whole book. :D
A glove??? Heh.
Roustabout @5 – I think you’re thinking of the Skybreakers, who are all about obeying the letter of the law. We know very, very little about the Dustbringers, except that they apparently had the ability to make even stone burn, and they deeply resented the appelation “Dustbringer,” preferring the title “Releaser.” They had the Surges of Division and Abrasion. We don’t know enough to know whether they would approve of Adolin or not; WoB has hinted that they might.
ETA: a quick look through the interview database indicates that people have specifically asked Brandon about both Willshapers and Dustbringers wrt: Adolin’s actions. In both cases, he indicated that they might well accept his choices, though he specifically said that the Skybreakers would not likely do so. I don’t know that anyone has asked about Edgedancers in this regard.
Just give Adolin the honor blade that grants powers that the assasin had.
So long Carl, and thanks for all the fish!
@3 Now can’t stop thinking if Adolin begins to suck even more he can become a Dustbuster.
Carl – we’ll miss you on this re-read. Thanks for all of the contributions.
Rob
Strange, then, that she doesn’t also operate as a scientist outright, rather than playing patron to the ardentia.
I’m guessing Navani can only push things a little at a time. And she’s no doubt playing politics, by not offending the Ardents. Baby steps, perhaps.
Thanks for all your great insights Carl! Enjoy the new work…we’re in good hands here!
Adolin has such a unique relationship with his Shardblade, my theory is that he will somehow revive the spren in his current blade, rather than form a bond with another spren. No idea what Order that would put him in, though personally I think the Stonewards could be a good fit.
Adolin’s blade has been confirmed by WOB that it is a Edgedancers blade.
Elfy247 @11 – WoB has confirmed that Adolin’s Blade was originally an Edgedancer spren. Personally, I’d always thought he’d be good as a Willshaper or Dustbringer, but… I’m not the author! So I’ll accept Edgedancer, especially if it means he can revive that blade. I’ve held that hope very tightly for the last 19 months, and will continue to hold it tight
untilunless I’m indisputably proven wrong. :)Thank you for all your hard work, Carl! I will certainly miss your humour and snark in the re-read. All the best in that whole editing gig!
For Navani’s notebook page, it might be worthwhile to check out the following thread at the 17th Shard, which includes translation and some discussion of the various pages (including the one from WoK): http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6487-thaylen-and-alethi-glyph-translation-glyph-key-revised-418/
Carl- Thanks for the work you have heretofore put in. It’s been fun to have two personality types interacting with the same characters. I will miss your particular brand of humor. At lest you got to see the Shallatyn ship through ; P
Speaking of shipping, this chapter has one of my favorite potential candidates. I ship Renarin and Rushu.
WetlanderNW- Are you up for doing weekly posts for eternity?
Soulcasters- Maybe these guys are stone-like because they spend so much time making buildings? Maybe there is another group of ardents with gems dedicated more for food making that look a little more…organic?
Carl, thanks for co-steering the ship that is this re-read. I hope you will still comment regularly as I find your comments thoughtful.
One question on the way out: You opined that Adolin is on a far darker path. Do you think Adolin’s path has reached its nadir by the end of WoR (when he kills Sadeas)?
I do not. I think that until the consequences of Sadeas’ death are known (i.e. his initial punishment), then Adolin will not reach his nadir. I expect that this will occur in the early to middle of the next book. By the end of the third book, I believe Adolin will be well on his way back on an upscale trajectory.
Not sure if his journey will lead him to become a Knight Radiant. In one way, I hope he does. I think he would make an ideal KR. However, if he does not become a KR, I would love to see how his relationship progresses with Shallan. If they are able to successfully exist as a couple (getting married and having children), I would love for the next series (books 6-10) to explore how Adolin, as a non-KR, and Shallan, as a KR, interact in their personal lives. It is more than just one partner is non-KR and the other is a KR. Adolin is a male member of the royal family (and heir to a powerful High House) in a society where men are the rulers and fighters. Yet his wife would be a KR in a world where the females are the powers behind the scenes. As they are the ones who read and write.
In any event, I do not believe Adolin is destined to serve Odium.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Carl, thank you for all your insights you have shared with us, you will be missed. Stop in and play with us sometimes! Navani cracks me up with her skirting the edge of propriety! Her, I don’t give a hoot, attitude makes her one of my favorite charactors!!
Thanks Carl! I have loved your reread commentaries
Thanks for all the work you put into the reread Carl, and best wishes with your future endeavors. The humor you brought to the reread was one of the big draws to why I followed the whole thing and even started posting (the mink reaction still amuses me to this day).
@16 AndrewHB: I’m of the same opinion that the beginning of book 3 might put Adolin into his lowest – not just because of the consequences of his actions, but also because of all the people close to him being a Radiant, and Shallan’s support might be somewhat compromised by Mraize (not directly, but I imagine book 3 will test her in that regard).
Finally, congratulations Alice on having the whole reread now: it might be a bit lonely to helm it by yourself, but I’m sure it helped Carl in moving on to know he was leaving it in capable hands.
Carl I’m glad for you, but sad for us. I know you leave us in Alice’s very capable hands, and with her skilled and honed mind but I will miss your input, especially the way you phrased it “humor-wise”.
Regarding Jasnah pretending to have a soulcaster I slightly disagree. Soulcasters likely use their Soulcasters daily, while (if I remeber correctly) Jasnah didn’t use “hers” extensively, which means quite a difference. At least Shallan never commented that her fathers buttler seemed changed and he used his soulcaster quite regularly for the Davars (IIRC).
AndrewHB @16 I worry that Adolin’s relationship with Shallan is exactly what will drive him towards Odium. Shallan seems to be romantically interested in Kaladin by the end of WoR despite also liking Adolin. If she were to choose Kal, I don’t see Adolin taking it well.
Furthermore, the power structure seems certain to change now that the Everstorm has arrived. The importance of being a prince seems like it will be diminished by the formation of the KR. Given Adolin’s inability to appropriately channel his frustrations, I wonder how he will react to these drastic changes. The world seems to be accidentally ostrasizing him and I doubt that’s something he is prepared to handle well.
I like Adolin, but a dark road ahead for his character seems very likely.
My sad theory is that Ialai will quickly figure out the circumstances of Sadeas’ demise and use that as leverage to make Adolin do bad things. That combined with the love triangle opens him to Odium’s influence.
He’s actually my pick to become Odium’s champion. Maximum tragedy.
Brandon has answered several questions on the matter… He did say Adolin was NOT currently under the influence of Odium. As for him going evil, many of his answers seem to indicate the contrary. Whereas I will admit he did not directly state it, he more or less disapprouved it.
As far as I am concerned, Adolin going evil is extremely out-of-character for him. He is solely driven by his love for his closed ones and his fear harm will come their way. Going against them? Fighting them? Killing them? Impossible.
As for Shallan choosing Kaladin, does anyone really believe honorable Kaladin would engage himself in a relationship with her without Adolin’s blessing??? Again, it would be very out-of-character for Kaladin to play in the back of an individual he has come to not only respect, but like.
You can only go so long pretending to be a Soulcaster before someone asks why you don’t have stone skin yet.
“I moisturize.”
Navani is working on respect, the respect for her rank and connections versus the usual disrespect for a woman who dresses like a darkeyes. There’s also the respect given an elder. In her case, resepect wins out against odd behavior that can be dismissed as nonthreatening to social norms.
Moving in on territory claimed by the ardents is about power and the ardents place in society. Navani dressed as a darkeyes is not threatening to darkeyes. The small threat it represents to lighteyed social norms is overwhelmed by much larger social norms about rank and royal power.
Carl, thank you x10E6!
Sprenspotting: Kadash gets a gloryspren too. Which is old hat and totally overshadowed by the callback to the WoK interlude.
I have to wonder why Adolin is having difficulty controlling his shardblade. Is he just physically and emotionally drained after the fight with Szeth or is something else going on? If we see more examples of Adolin fighting blade control, then maybe I’ll start speculating wildly. For now I’ll just RAFO myself. Adolin’s POV in this chapter does put to rest comments, from about a month ago, about him “normally” having difficulty commanding his blade to stay put in the physical realm. Doesn’t seem to be the case.
Wow! Extensive use of fabrial soulcasters causes hardening of the
arteriesentire body. Is an untimely death, painful or otherwise, the ultimate fate of red-robed ardents? I suppose they are willing participants, but there could be huge ethical/moral problems with employing someone to do a slow suicide to keep your army fed and housed. In real life, anyway.ETA
Oh, and what happens to the soldiers in an archer tower if they run out of ammo in the middle of a pitched battle. With opposing forces swarming below them. Navani, please develop an arrow teleportation fabrial.
I don’t think Kaladin and Shallan will get together. I am still holding out for the Adolin/Shallan relationship, albeit with lots and lots of drama!
Adolin really IS related to Elkohar. He wouldn’t take off his Shardplate either. What is it with the Kholin boys and their power suits?
The very presence ofhte Soulcaster Fabrial implies that it is possible to make Surgebinding gadgets. Boots of Lashing, maybe? Imagine how fast a boat with a friction fabrial could go. Carts equipped with friction fabrials, sledding across the land…
And Investiture is interchangeable, to a degree. Rioter Fabrials? Soother Fabrials? Duralumin Booster Fabrials, to make you overpowered like a Mistborn? Aon Dor Fabrials, to let ANYONE be a wizard? It would explain a LOT about why Hoid is so multi-talented…
Even if Adolin gets manipulated or gets darker (which doesn’t mean becomes evil – as others have pointed out, not everyone needs to be super honorable), I don’t think it will be because of a love triangle. Besides the detail that Kaladin isn’t even there now, Kaladin seems to have given up and I think Shallan is actually kind of mad at Kaladin by the ending – maybe we just didn’t see it, but it might look to her that Kaladin deceived her by not using his powers while in the chasms (and Shallan has problems with other people lying for very obvious reasons, considering how one lie ruined her household). At least that’s how I kind of look at how Shallan seems to be in the ending, although I’m making a lot of assumptions on little since it was pretty near the end.
Plus, unless I’m forgetting something, I can’t think of another Sanderson story where a main character couple formed then broke up. Admittedly Sanderson likes to avoid getting into habits, but he also likes flipping expectations, which is what Adolin and Shallan have with being happy with their arranged courtship.
Brandon has answered several questions on the matter… He did say Adolin was NOT currently under the influence of Odium. As for him going evil, many of his answers seem to indicate the contrary. Whereas I will admit he did not directly state it, he more or less disapprouved it.
As far as I am concerned, Adolin going evil is extremely out-of-character for him. He is solely driven by his love for his closed ones and his fear harm will come their way. Going against them? Fighting them? Killing them? Impossible.
As for Shallan choosing Kaladin, does anyone really believe honorable Kaladin would engage himself in a relationship with her without Adolin’s blessing??? Again, it would be very out-of-character for Kaladin to play in the back of an individual he has come to not only respect, but like.
@28: Wax and Marasi, Alloy of Law. For a given value of ‘couple’, anyway.
@scm of 2814: Except that was overriden by Wax already being engaged (basically) to Steris – of course there’s 3 books where that could change (I have no idea what happens in them, although Steris is on the cover of book 2 of the trilogy). Although I think using couple was wrong word choice on my part: I meant basically some semblance of a relationship, including legal ones.
Although now that I think about it, Warbreaker comes closest – you have the swap of Siri and Vivi (which although not by strict word is a violation, does seem to break the sentiment of it), and then afterward Vivi and the friend she takes with her to the city (although there was really nothing between them, except that Vivi kind of saw him as a fallback option). But I think if I’m not going to count that, then by extension I do need to count Wax and Marasi…
It may come from being more on the conservative side of the spectrum – hell I like the death penalty – but I never saw Alodin’s actions as evil. Honestly I saw them as good and honorable. By the point he kills him both know all the legends are real, the knights radient are needed, and what is coming. But sadeas still says he is going to be evil. What exactly is wrong with taking out an evil overlord BEFORE he becomes an evil overlord?
Adolin might try the Clay Allison defense, “I never killed a man that did not need killing”. Well, if anyone did need killing, it was Sadeas. I think Jasnah uses that one, too.
@carl, Dude it’s been a pleasure following your posts. Good luck!
That said, I do disagree with you about Adolin being on a “dark path” Sadeas was a rabid dog that needed putting down, and at the end of the day Adolin was the only person in any kind of position to do it.
Sadeas flat out admitted that he had tried to get Adolin and his father killed (on multiple occasions in Adolin’s case with the duel) and he admitted that he would continue to do so. Only a complete lunatic would ignore that kind of existential threat. It’s one thing to ignore a political enemy or some jerk just because you don’t like him/her, but when said enemy is actively trying to kill you and you have to act.
So what can you do?
Putting him on trial would be ideal, but he is a worm and proving that he had broken any kind of law severe enough to have him executed or stripped of his title would be next to impossible. That only leaves killing him. So who could do it?
King Elhokar ordering his execution would set all the other high princes against him and spell doom for the kingdom.
Dalinar could kill him, but the end result would be the same as Elhokar since all the high princes know Elhokar and Dalinar are pretty much united in mind and goal.
Kaladin certainly hates him enough, but is apparently now under metaphysical constraints against offing people outside of battle or scenarios of clear, immediate danger to either himself or someone he’s protecting. He still might have made a good candidate, but waiting for Sadeas to strike again before going after him is stupid for a number of reasons not least of which are that a. he probably wouldn’t directly involve himself, and b. even if he did, there’s always the chance he would be successful that time.
Renarin hasn’t got the skill–at least yet–to fight a puppy let alone an accomplished swordsman like Sadeas.
That only leaves Adolin. He has the skill and strength. Sadeas is stupid enough to enjoy goading him, and he is of a high enough rank to possibly get away with it while still low enough to not set the high princes in a panic against the throne even if he is found out.
What he did may have seemed dark, but I doubt there was any other course of action that would have worked out for better.
I tend to agree with Carl’s judgment of Adolin – at least to the extent of fearing that Adolin has entered a downward personality spiral with his killing of Sadeas. While the action might be justified as a means of stopping a deadly potential threat against his father. Adolin’s efforts to hide his involvement is a sign of guilt rather than personal growth. How he reacts to inevitable charges by Ialai and others will reveal how much damage has been done and what steps are needed to recover. It should be recalled that one of the basic oaths of Radiants is ‘journey before destination’. The ends never justify the means taken. While the Skybreakers may have a different interpretation, the author appears to favor the Teft interpretation of the 3 basic Radiant ideals given in WOK.
@35: The argument could be made killing Sadeas was a first step towards the journey for Adolin as it dissociated him from his father. He has made the conscious decision to violate his father’s codes (and the law) for a greater good. Was it an ending or a beginning? I believe we would interpret this both ways.
For my part, my personal thoughts have always been Adolin is going towards a very rocky journey that will ultimately lead him to becoming a Radiant, but not without a few bumps along the way. Currently, a first batch of Radiants were made, a second may be on the way. Adolin could very well end up in the second or even third wave of Radiants, hopefully through his Shardblade.
Here is another slant on the Sadeas killing. Sadeas had previously been open with Adolin about his nefarious intentions towards Dalinar. In fact, such confidences could be considered an attempt to instruct Adolin in the ‘ways of the world’, i.e., an educational motivation. Either that or an attempt at provoking a punishable assault which Elhokar and Dalinar would have had to handle. While such provocation in the past might have seemed safe since Adolin would not be expected to engage in a punishable act by assaulting a highprince, the situation was entirely different now. Now Dalinar was seen as the savior and leader of the remnants of the Alethi warcamps, while Sadeas’ oppositional role (not to mention assassination attempts) marked him as a pariah or criminal. What did he have to gain by goading Adolin under the current circumstances where the Kholins were ascendant and he was disdained? I believe that his provocative words were intended, consciously or not, to provoke an extreme reaction. He believed that his power was gone and he had no interest in prolonging his life only to succumb to the infirmities of old age. On the other hand, his battering or death at the hands of Adolin could bring down Dalinar from his current pedestal, or cause him grief if he was forced to punish his heir. Not that such conjectured considerations mitigate the moral implications of the killing. It is offered only in an attempt to understand an otherwise clever – if ruthless, man.
This passage is what makes me think that Shallan will end up with Kaladin.
“That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind, noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.
Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him. He was. Like the wind and rocks were. Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next. She blushed. “What was that”
A lot of things are stacking against Adolin. Possibly losing his betrothed, not being a KR (TBD), and possibly being ostracized for having committed murder. I am not saying he will outright turn evil, but that’s a lot to deal with and as we saw with Sadeas, Adolin isn’t the best at dealing with his anger.
STBLST @35. To my knowledge, nothing in the text or a WoB exists which supports the notion a political/philosophical attitude of “the ends justifies the means” (i.e. Machieveli’s ideals set forth in the Prince) is inconsistent with the First Oath of the Knight Radiant.
STBLST @37. I agree that Sadeas would have liked nothing more to goad Adolin into taking some action against Sadeas that would embarass and/or politically injure Dalinar. However, I do not believe for one second that Sadeas was willing to sacrifice his life as a means of embarassing and/or politically injuring Dalinar. Sadeas valued his life above all else. He wanted power for himself. If he were dead, he would not have such power.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
On the whole morality of Adolin’s actions thing, Brandon had this to say at the Chicago Signing back in February:
And I’m thinking that Cultivation would have no problem with it.
I think in book 3 Adolin’s conflict will be about finding another path and (potentially) avoiding being corrupted: Adolin’s current position reminds me a bit of Spook’s between books 2 and 3 of Mistborn (hopefully Odium doesn’t have a version of spiking he can do!).
Of course, even if he ends up on a “good” path, it doesn’t mean it won’t conflict with the other protagonists: Sanderson has done a good job so far of presenting multiple sides in the conflict and giving people conflicting loyalties.
34.
What he said.
Honor is dead. Well, Honor (uppercase h shard) probably lost because he was unable to imagine a scenario where his enemies acted without honor (lowercase h trait). In his mind if two master swordsmen meet on the field of battle they should duel with swords.
To Odium and a man like Sadeas, the logical thing is for the “smart” one to pull an Indiana Jones and unceremoniously shoot the other with a gun before laughing and walking away.
The ends may not justify the means (when there are other means available), but in some rare instances there is only two choices: either eliminate a threat, or accept the fact that you are going to eventually be killed by said threat, and it will be left unchecked.
@STBLST 35 and AndrewHB 39
I have to agree with Andrew on this one. Discrediting Dalinar and/or Adolin was certainly Sadeas’s goal, but the man seemed to think he would live forever. Sadeas was definitely the kind who might try to cook up a scenario where Adolin ended up killing some other noble to embarrass the Kohlins, but there’s no way he would ever willingly put his own head on the chopping block.
I do agree that dumping the body was a mistake. What Adolin should have done was immediately call a meeting with the king and other high ranking nobles, produce Sadeas’s body and just say “we got into an argument, he pulled a knife, so I stabbed him in the eye with it.”
That’s close enough to the truth to be believable, there were no other witnesses, and it would take the wind out of the sails of any plot Ialai might cook up to discredit him with the revelation of her husband’s death.
Does anyne think that Adolin is being prepped for a sacrifice at the end of book 5? His death will somehow stop Odium from ravaging Roshar and buy the Radiants 10-15 years to plan how to finish Odium.
@45: I hope not: by the end of WoR, Adolin has morphed into a very interesting character. The fall from grace for the Prince who had it all before hitting rock bottom, but ends up learning a valuable lessson and rises up a greater man then before is a very, very, very compelling trope. One that has more potential with its main actor being alive then dead, but these are only my personal thoughts.
However, I have always thought Dalinar would eventully sacrifice himself for a greater cause and/or to ensure his son’s survival.
Besides, of all the current Kohlins, the only one I see having the capacity to built a lasting dynasty is Adolin, after a great deal of maturing, but ultimately, he has to be the one. If not him, then that role would fall down on the next generation as neither Elhokar or Renarin are fit to carry on this task.
I think Adolin is going to spiral downward, until he hits bottom, I don’t think he’ll come out the bad guy though. I think or hope he becomes an edgedancer, just think of the moves he would be able to put into his swordfighting!! That could be the most assume scene!
We all are debating whether or not Adolin’s path is a dark one, and whether that means he may go “bad.” Those may be good questions, but we ignoring one big one, how is his path any different than his cousin’s?
Jasnah has proven that she is more than willing to kill even when she doesn’t have to, and that she is even willing to go so far as to hire professional assassins if she thinks someone might be a danger to her family.
I like Jasnah. I think she, her mother and Shallan are three of the most interesting female characters I have read about in a while. But they’re people, not saints.
Shallan has aslo killed when backed into a corner and I don’t doubt for a minute that Navani would have been willing to stick a knife between Sadeas’s ribs at the earliest oppportunity if she found out he was planning on having Dalinar and her son killed and taking the throne for himself.
“The ends justfiying the means in their minds” again whether it is one character or another.
It is a disservice to both genders if we say “this course of action is wrong” when a man does something morally questionable, then ignore or even approve of that exact same action if it comes from a woman. Especially if said woman is a direct peer of the man.
It may be that what Adolin did was wrong. I don’t know, time will tell. But if it was, I can’t imagine Jasnah’s path has been any less dark up to this point, or that it doesn’t come with just as many potential pitfalls via Odium.
Andrew HB and wearter, the enunciation of the First (tripartite Radiant) Ideal is given by Teft in TWOK, chap 59. It is to value life, to protect the weak, and to insure that means taken are just. To quote Teft, “failure is preferable to winning through unjust means”. It so happens that these ideals also drive Kaladin’s father. That leads me to assume that this was the lesson that the author intended for the reader. It is the opposite of a Machiavelian approach. While there is some subjectivity involved such as the definition of what is or isn’t unjust and whether an alternative course of action that is not self-destructive is available, the intention seems clear. Sadeas at the final confrontation did not present a clear and present danger to the Kholins. He simply did not have the power to carry out any evil intentions. While his killing by Adolin may have been more justified than Moash’s attempt at killing Elhokar, it was not honorable according to the above ideal.
I admit that my ‘psychoanalysis’ of Sadeas in that fateful conversation with Adolin is conjectural, but it is a way of understanding an otherwise puzzling conversation. Sadeas knew that Adolin hated him, yet taunted him with promising to continue efforts to undermine his father. Given their totally new and perilous situation, this is not the time to goad your adversary. Dalinar is considered a hero and savior, while Sadeas would be taken, at best, as a fool for opposing Dalinar and seeking his death. What could possess Sadeas, an otherwise clever and ruthless man from speaking so brazenly to Adolin. I see Sadeas as a person driven by power seeking. He is also fascinated by death (particularly if he is doing the killing). If the game appears up, he would consider death preferable to a life in misery, i.e., without power. As it is, he showed disgust with his middle-aged appearance earlier in the WOR.
Andrew HB and wearter, the enunciation of the First (tripartite Radiant) Ideal is given by Teft in TWOK, chap 59. It is to value life, to protect the weak, and to insure that means taken are just. To quote Teft, “failure is preferable to winning through unjust means”. It so happens that these ideals also drive Kaladin’s father. That leads me to assume that this was the lesson that the author intended for the reader. It is the opposite of a Machiavelian approach. While there is some subjectivity involved such as the definition of what is or isn’t unjust and whether an alternative course of action that is not self-destructive is available, the intention seems clear. Sadeas at the final confrontation did not present a clear and present danger to the Kholins. He simply did not have the power to carry out any evil intentions. While his killing by Adolin may have been more justified than Moash’s attempt at killing Elhokar, it was not honorable according to the above ideal.
I admit that my ‘psychoanalysis’ of Sadeas in that fateful conversation with Adolin is conjectural, but it is a way of understanding an otherwise puzzling conversation. Sadeas knew that Adolin hated him, yet taunted him with promising to continue efforts to undermine his father. Given their totally new and perilous situation, this is not the time to goad your adversary. Dalinar is considered a hero and savior, while Sadeas would be taken, at best, as a fool for opposing Dalinar and seeking his death. What could possess Sadeas, an otherwise clever and ruthless man from speaking so brazenly to Adolin. I see Sadeas as a person driven by power seeking. He is also fascinated by death (particularly if he is doing the killing). If the game appears up, he would consider death preferable to a life in misery, i.e., without power. As it is, he showed disgust with his middle-aged appearance earlier in the WOR.
Sorry about the double post.
@24 “I moisturize.” Ha! hahahahaha! I literally laughed out loud and all of the kids in my class looked at me like I was crazy.
Random thought – not even really related to this chapter since it’s about Adolin – but people have mentioned Kaladin in various comments and it got me thinking …
Does Kaladin remind anyone else of Rand Al’Thor in The Gathering Storm – who is sooooo depressed and sooooo about to turn to the dark side and/or give in to despair, and then at that pivotal moment he learns how to laugh again? In Kaladin’s case, it’s when he’s about to commit suicide, and also when he goes off the deep end and almost loses Syl. I think Adolin may be beginning a similar character arc – he is doing some evil deeds, he may become disillusioned with everything and everyone, but in the end I think he will turn it around. I remember smiling and crying at the same time because I was so incredibly joyful that Rand CHOSE the light. And I think Adolin will do the same.
People who have done craaaazy stuff can still turn it around.
Carl, I’ve never commented before because I was a late addition to the reread, but I caught up to you guys a couple of weeks ago. I’ve really enjoyed your commentary and I wish you all the best.
@52, I really like that comparison. I’m hoping Adolin goes toward the darkness a bit and recovers in similar fashion.
Like Kaladin reminds you of Rand, Adolin’s situation reminds me much of Elend’s in Mistborn. He goes from being a pretty important guy to being a bit less important, at least in comparison to his superhero badass girlfriend Vin. I imagine the next book will explore alot of Adolin’s displacement issues after everyone around him, including his betrothed gets superpowers and is elevated to a position above him. In Elend’s case, this lasted just long enough for him to come to terms with it before he got powers of his own. I suspect Adolin’s progression may be similar, if not a bit darker.
@52 – If Kaladin is Rand then Adolin has just got to be Gawyn.
@Wetlandernw
Regarding Adolin’s Edgedancer potential, I…actually like it quite a lot. I think one of the things we’ve been doing is sort of looking at radiants based on their Words of Radiance (the book) descriptions. But those Radiants had what, hundreds of years of culture behind them? Our new proto-radiants don’t have any of that.
And really, who has the ability to be a more graceful and beautiful radiant than Adolin? He’s been training with Plate and Blade his entire life. If anyone can make use of Progression and Abrasion in a combat scneario, it’s him.
On the other side of that, the healing aspects of Progression provide a realy nice contrast from what Adolin assumed he’d spend his life doing. He’s a duelist, a fighter, a killer. What he isn’t, or what he hasn’t been, is a healer. I think gaining access to that rare ability opens up a really interesting avenue for character growth. That’s just me, though. (Is TJMT an acronym analogous to IMHO? Or, used, ever? I like it better.)
@55: Except Adolin is not a killer, not by choice. He hates killing, he detests hunting. I kinda of see him learning to heal. I think it would fit with him very nicely.
If Adolin becomes a healer, Kaladin could be his teacher (at least if magical healers need mundane medical knowledge).
@@@@@thepupxpert Hmmmm, very interesting. Adolin similar to Gawyn …
Gawyn:
1. self-sacrificing (putting on those dang rings – in Kaladin’s case taking the brunt of responsibility and trying to protect his men – For Adolin he is always on the front line in his shardplate, pushing himself way past his limits to protect people)
2. he’s got attitude/is impetuous (Kaladin’s always standing up to his “superiors” and I love his interactions with Shallan which remind of Gawyn and Egwene’s relationship – but with Adolin he’s got something going with her too … I love that little love triangle. Polyamory anyone?)
3. he makes major decisions without consulting anyone … Spoilers: Like, hey, I’m just going to kill Sadeas here and damn the consequences , just like Gawyn goes to take on Moridin all by his lonesome.
Hmmmm, yes. I see the similarities. I like that comparison a lot!
@57: You make me think, does anyone have any idea how healing via the surge of Progression works? Considering the term “regrowth” suggest the accelerated developement of organic matter, it would make sense to use it efficiently one would need some basic medical knowledge… For example, if I were to heal a broken bone using Progression, wouldn’t it make sense I would first need to make sure the bone is properly aligned before I send in the accelerated healing?
However, when Lift healed Gawx, she did not seem to do much else then performed what appeared like “magic” by blowing into his face…
I would love if Progression was one of those surge requiring some training in field medicine. Has anyone ever asked Brandon? I do not recall reading a WoB on the matter.
As for Adolin being taught by Kaladin, how about Lirin? The boys could play at “swap your fathers”…. Kaladin goes to be tutored by Dalinar while Adolin spends some time with Lirin… Seems quite out of the box for him, but then again, he is pretty much unshooled.
@58: Gawyn had no sense of responsabilities: he abandoned his kingdom to go marry Egwene whereas Adolin would never abandon his family, his men or his duty. He also had a strong ego and thought himself better then he truly was, whereas Adolin keeps on doubting himself.
As you said, Gawyn had little respect for authority whereas Adolin is about the opposite: he has a strong incentive to obey his father even when he disagrees, up until the end that is, but in this case, we are dealing with something else then being rebellious.
As for being self-sacrifying, I did not get that in Gawyn’s character… I read him as a pompeous fool who couldn’t muster not being able to contribute more and thus took evil rings just to prove he could be great as well… Perhaps this could be read as self-sacrifying, but I read Adolin very differently: Adolin would die if it meant saving his family, but he would engage himself in a useless fight just for the shake of being useful. He would defend himself, defend his loved ones, to the death if need be, but he would not have stupidly engaged Demandred, not without a plan A, a plan B and a plan C.
@60: Your insights are so interesting and different from mine. I never viewed Gawyn that way, but I appreciate your viewpoint! Although I do think Adolin is a little more well-developed of a character than Gawyn. He gets more page time and we know his motivations a bit better, I think, whereas Gawyn had some page time but was sort of a second-fiddle character, IMO. Thanks for your insight! :)
It’s Demandred, not Moridin.
@birgit: Thanks! I haven’t read the whole WoT series for a while … I read it twice through and I am sure I am in for another read of that series! But I’m sorry I got the characters mixed up.
The two thoughts that I have during this whole Adolin, is he going dark, or not, conversation are 1) No one knows he killed Sadeas, and 2) Killing in this matter seems to be a way of life, at least as Vorinism goes.
As stated before, I think the ditching of the body is a mistake. Dalinar just rallied and saved a large percentage of the warcamps as a mythical Highstorm attacked from the wrong direction. I think this buys him a great deal of cache, and a whole new level of respect from the other Highlords. Adolin coming in at this point and saying, “So, Sadeas here made clear his intent to subvert my father, even in the face of this new peril. So, I removed him,” would carry a great deal of weight with them. That would more than likely buy even more respect for the Kholins. Ditching the body takes this power away.
I like Brandon’s statement that morality in our world doesn’t necessarily translate to similar morality on Rhoshar. Not only does that paint Adolin’s act in a different light, but it doesn’t preclude him from future involvement in the KR. One could argue Lift is an amoral person. One could also, quite effectively, argue Jasnah is an amoral person. Adolin’s actions regarding Sadeas fit a similar mold, right up until the point where he ditches the body. That, to me, takes away any higher ground stance he had in terms of Vorinism. But I might be reading into that wrong too.
@64: As far as Jasnah goes, Brandon has stated her actions were darker than Adolin’s. According to the morality of Roshar, what Adolin did is more defendable then what Jasnah did.
Brandon also stated Adolin’s actions did not break some of the morality on Roshar and that he did have a legitimate moral gound to justify them.
In other words, he is not going down the dark path. If Jasnah can become a KR, so can he. We must try not to make the mistake to base our perception of KR on the widely used example of Kaladin.
Adolin’s main challenge will thus be dealing with his father and with hs inner feelings over having disobeyed a man he had placed on a pedestral. Legally speaking, someone will find a lopehole for him, but his reputation may be ruined.
Late to the party, but I wanted to say “Thanks Carl!” for all of the work on the Stormlight Archive reread. Best of luck in your future endeavors!
I agree with Wetlandernw and others that different Radiant orders have different selection criteria and moral standards. Thus, Jasnah, who has hired assassins in the past and has, apparently, been responsible for killing (at least according to Mraise) is still qualified to enter the Elsecaller order. This is in contrast to the Windrunner order that appears to require strict adherence to their moral code for admission to its ranks. Kaladin was thus nearly excluded when he implicitly agreed to Elhokar’s assassination, but was saved by his heroic, self-sacraficial action to defend the king in the face of impossible odds. Adolin could enter some Radiant orders if he can overcome the stigma of having killed Sadeas. His guilt at that impetuous act is clear from his actions after the deed when he cuts off his bloody sleeves, erases his marking on the wall, and throws out his father’s old shardblade that appeared when its current holder (Sadeas) died. These are the acts of someone attempting to avoid the consequences of his actions, and, thus, a sign of cowardice. We’ll have to see how the story plays out in the next installment. Meanwhile, it has been a long time since Brandon has graced us with some new material. Some of us may be getting antsy and not resigned to merely reliving the WOR material through the Reread. We need more meat!
@67: I think we could argue Adolin goes into shock state after realizing what he had done. After commiting an act we see as reprehensive, the first natural human reaction often is one of denial, followed by an attempt to “erase the action” or to “make it go away”. It is not cowardice, but a coping mechanism triggered by extreme stress.
The next phase would most likely be anger, rage and refusal to accept the “action” as the new “reality”. The last step is the acceptance, admitting this is real and dealing with it, moving on.
I thus expect Adolin to go through these motions in the days following the murder: 1) denial, 2) anger, 3) acceptance.
He won’t talk until he reaches 3).
Is it guilt, or knowing that it would be considered illegal?
I don’t think he is going to feel bad for this murder. But he does know it is going to cause legal problems.
@69 ZenBossanova
I’m guessing guilt is probably the primary factor. At then end of the day there were no witnesses and the mutual amnoisty was well known.
He would face some legal trouble, but I doubt he could actually be convicted of murder because no one could prove that Sadeas didn’t attack him first. Afterall, everyone in the camps already know that he had already tried to have Adolin killed or crippled on at least two previous occassions.
I’m not saying that’s a good thing, Just that I don’t see Elhokar letting his cousin hang in the end given the situation.
Really great discussion. I don’t have tons to add, you all have made me think. I always liked adolin’s character, but now he has become one of the most interesting. One of the hardest ramifications for him will be when dalinar finds out what he has done, and dealing with dalinar’s dissappiontment. And he will find out…ialai will make sure of it.
There are a lot of future revelations that will be really…interesting. will adolin ever find out about shallan’s parents? Would he, raised in such happier circumstances, be able to understand? Will shallan learn that kaladin killed heleran? What else can we learn about jasnah? (Everything? Please? As soon as possible?)
It is really interesting to compare adolin and jasnah. I don’t see her actions in the alley as darker than his, as she was actively being attacked. But we are also given hints that alley was not her first rodeo, so…must…know…more.
I do think I grieve more for how adolin’s actions might affect him though, because it directly contradicts the ideals of the father he loves, it is not what dalinar would have wanted. I know too little still about what all jasnah had done, and why, to be able to form an opinion on her path.
48 WCARTER: Excellent point: if Jasnah or Shallan can kill and still be on the good side, why can’t Andolin? Why do we assume women to be good even if they have blood on their hands?
That said, I am thinking the hiding and wiping off evidence is going to get him into trouble. If Saladeas is not dead (I have a felling about this, they both fought without the blades, when Saladeas’ blade appears, Andolin assumes he is dead. What if Saladeas summond the blade and then willed it to stay to fight but passed out instead? Or the text clearly states that he is dead and I am an idiot. Anyway, if Saladeas is not dead), then he is going to torment Andolin. If he is really dead, there might be an obscure rule somewhere in Roshar’s law book that’s going to get Andolin into trouble (he willingly put himself behind bars because of Kaladin’s punishment, so he might jail himself again); besides there is his own self of righteousness- he might not be able to accept himself unless he confessed his crimes. So, growth, I think, towards becoming more mature, then bonding a Spren to become a KR.
@72 Purnima
Unless someone came at Sadeas with some Herald level Regrowth, he’s worm chow.
The text does specifically say that Adolin “worked the blade in the eye socket a bit” In other words he didn’t just stab Sadeas, he swished around the grey matter with the blade of a side knife that was probably 4-5 inches long .
Actually, now that I think about it, I’m not even sure Nalan could fix that, and he seems to have brought Szeth back from the dead.
For all that, even if he can’t torment Adolin personally, there is no reason his wife cant.
@@@@@ 73 wcarter: Lol! I hereby give up my baseless theory simply because I love Saladeas being worm chow. Nicely put!
Carl, thank you so much for all you’ve contributed. Your insights and humor will be missed!
@73 Purnima I’m sure Szeth’s brain was pretty much mush after falling from such a depth, too. And whatever Surgebinding Nale used on him worked. But I sincerely hope Nale isn’t wandering around Urithiru right now to resuscitate Sadeas, 1) I really don’t want to have to read about him anymore ::shiver:: and 2) there are a lot of proto-Radiants about and I don’t want Nale getting close to them, either!
@24 Ellynne I really like your analysis of the power/cultural bind in which Navani is currently enmeshed.
@25 Ways, I had this reaction, too. Even if they did ‘volunteer’ for soulcasting duties, soulcasting ardents are Slaves, right? We are all so outraged at the treatment of the Bridgecrews, but here is an example of where the entire society of the Shattered Plains depends on the exploitation and death? of the soulcasters. Maybe that’s why they keep it so quiet and secretive, because people would be outraged if they knew the consequences to the ardents (nah, probably not!). It’s not like there aren’t alternative ways of producing most of what soulcasting provides. Sebarial produces most of the same goods provided by the soulcasters, it’s just that people would have to actually WORK for the items instead of being Entitled.
Did anyone wonder, after seeing the description of the soulcaster’s stone-like skin, if Shallon’s subconscious drawing of ‘Shalash’ chiseling on a statue, might instead be on a soulcaster? That’s assuming she’s ‘spiking’ not just destroying her own artistic visages…..
Also, am I the only one who suspects Rushu of being a spy? Her reason for being an ardent seems suspicious, and timely for when Navani returned to the Shattered Plains. And she keeps having to be forced to leave Navani when she’s trying to have a private discussion. I know Navaini puts it off to ‘just being a scatterbrained scholar’, but it’s such a stereotypical portrayal….
And I LOVED the entire Adolin/Navani “Aunt,” he said <blushing>. “Have you been, uh, doing anything to encourage my father’s advances. Between you two, I mean.” BWAHAHA Navani is such a card. It was kinda brave of Adolin to bring it up, though, I thought.
@12 but has it been confirmed that once an Edgedancer always an Edgedancer? Perhaps the blade can switch allegiances especially if it can be awoken by a new KR.
I’m pretty sure that the nature of a spren can’t change. Sylphrena will always be an honorspren, and couldn’t become a Cryptic if she wanted to, right? So I’d assume that an Edgedancer blade, even if revived, would still be an Edgedancer spren.