Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we saw science in action (and bade a sad and fond farewell to Carl’s rereading days). This week, Shallan begins a new stage of her journey, reaching the warcamps and taking the first steps toward establishing herself there.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 36: A New Woman
Point of View: Shallan
Setting:
Symbology: Pattern, Shalash, Chach
IN WHICH Shallan is a new woman; Pattern proves an adept lockpick; the caravan owner bids a dour farewell to Shallan and her men, which Shallan returns with relief; Shallan, feeling moderately skanky, ironically enters the warcamps on the backs of Voidbringers (well, proto-Voidbringers); a mental list of her tasks is daunting; she discovers that in spite of everything, she still respects Tyn’s opinions; something is wrong in the warcamps: there are too many patrols out; Shallan is determined not to be set aside or ignored anymore; sketches prove useful in this regard; she enters the Pinnacle accompanied by Vathah and Gaz; at the top she meets—oops—the captain of Dalinar’s guards, who does notbelieve that she is really Adolin’s causal-betrothed; Gaz is apprehended by the bridgeman-guards; Shallan and Kaladin both lose their tempers and behave childishly; she is finally allowed into the conference chamber. DUN!
Quote of the Week:
“Take me to the king, then,” Shallan said.
Vathah raised an eyebrow at her. The king of Alethkar was arguably the most powerful man in the world. “You aren’t going to kill him, are you?” Vathah asked softly, leaning down.
“What?”
“I figure it’s one reason a woman would have . . . you know.” He didn’t meet her eyes. “Get close, summon the thing, have it through a man’s chest before anyone knows what happened.”
…
Stormfather. Give a woman a Shardblade, get her close […] Had anyone ever tried that? They must have, though thinking about it made her sick.
I’m a bit nonplussed by Shallan’s reaction to this. Of course, part of that might be her own experience; she has twice killed with her Shardblade, both times in self-defense and most reluctantly, so the thought of setting out with that Blade to assassinate someone would naturally be repugnant to her. Perhaps it also reflects her sheltered Vorin traditions, where killing people is men’s work. But Vathah is as Vorin as Shallan, and it certainly occurred to him. Then again, he’s more experienced and less law-abiding than she is, at this stage of life.
Also: Liss, anyone? I keep wondering if we’ll ever see her again. Or if we have, and didn’t know it.
Commentary: Well, this Shallan is certainly a new woman in some ways. She’s always had a certain practicality, but I think it’s hardened a bit here. She needs to present herself to Dalinar (and Navani, and Adolin) in a way that will enable her to proceed with her research, and that’s not going to happen wearing rags and tatters… so she appropriates the belongings of the woman she killed last night. Well, I guess Tyn no longer needs her dresses or her makeup, right? Whew. (Of course, with the Lightweaving and more practice, she probably could have gone naked and still appeared to be whatever she wanted, but I’m betting it was easier this way!)
Vathah is proving his worth this morning. (I’ve concluded that I agree with those who said that he really had a complete change of heart when Shallan killed Tyn, and that we no longer need worry about him being trouble for her.) He steps up and takes charge of general stuff-that-needs-doing, and comes to her with the stuff she’s in a better position to deal with—like the burned bones of Tyn and her crew. (Ew?) His insights as a soldier, along with an apparently cast-iron stomach, prepare her to some extent for what they find in the camps.
Which is… not exactly chaos, but not exactly confidence and orderliness, either. Two assassins were dealt with in the immediate aftermath of last night’s storms; Tyn is dead, but Szeth is still out there somewhere, and the camps are nervous. Too many soldiers around, too many patrols… and Shallan gets to meet Dalinar (and Navani, and Adolin) in the middle of a meeting with too many Highprinces.
First, of course, she’s got to get to Dalinar, which means getting past the Captain of his guard. Yep, we knew that was going to come back to bite, didn’t we now? Honestly, while I can understand that Shallan feels a certain need to get the upper hand here, and she really did need those boots, I get more than a little irritated with her in this scene. Really, girl. You wouldn’t have to go into great detail, but a brief word of apology, a brief explanation of her need, and a brief promise to replace them would go a long way here.
In any case, I can’t help thinking that Kaladin got the better of this argument, no matter what either of them thought at the time. (He certainly got the best one-liner.) But Shallan knew she had the credentials to get in; she could have been at least a little bit gracious about it.
Stormwatch: This is still the morning after the night of the highstorm when Eshonai took stormform and the Assassin tried to kill Dalinar and Kaladin frightened Szeth off with his Surgebindingness and Shallan killed Tyn and scared the living daylights out of her men by having a Shardblade. Umm… folks, a whole lot of stuff happened in one night, there. Just in case you hadn’t noticed. Chapters 31, 32, 33, 34 and Interludes 5 and 8 all happened on the same day/night, and now we’ll have Interlude 6 plus Chapters 35, 36, 37, 38, 40, 41, 42 and 43 all on the same day. This day. This very busy day.
Sprenspotting: Pattern, oh Pattern… you aren’t being very forthcoming with advice here. Then again, you did well with opening the lock on that trunk, so I’ll forgive you. Also, while your communication skills need some work, your assistance with that sketching and its result (which we’ll see next week) is pretty awesome. Okay, on balance, you’re all right.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: Bye, Macob’s chulls. That is all.
Ars Arcanum: We won’t really see the effect of Shallan’s Lightweaving in this chapter, but we do see the work of it. Allow me a couple of quotations, because Brandon’s words are way better than mine:
… the crinkled sketch of Bluth as she’d imagined him. A hero instead of a slaver.
“Mmmmm . . .” Pattern said from the seat beside her.
“This picture is a lie,” Shallan said.
“Yes.”
“And yet it isn’t. This is what he became, at the end. To a small degree.”
“Yes.”
“So what is the lie, and what is the truth?”
Pattern hummed softly to himself, like a contented axehound before the hearth.
And then, as she works feverishly, drawing quickly in a jolting palanquin, she defines what she needs to be today.
It depicted Shallan as a confident young woman standing before Dalinar Kholin, as she imagined him. She’d put him in Shardplate as he, and those around him, studied Shallan with penetrating consternation. She stood strong, hand raised toward them as she spoke with confidence and power. No trembling here. No fear of confrontation.
This is what I would have been, Shallan thought, if I had not been raised in a household of fear. So this is what I will be today.
It wasn’t a lie. It was a different truth.
I think I have to go along with her on this. It’s not exactly the girl she’s been shaped into by her peculiar experiences, but it’s all there within her personality, and the Lightweaving draws out that potential.
Heraldic Symbolism: Shalash is pretty obvious, being Shallan’s patron Herald and all, and with the references to Illusion. Chach, on my best guess, is here in her role as Guard, for Kaladin playing Captain of the Guard as hard as ever he can. (And trying to guard Dalinar from opportunists like this fake Horneater princess…) You’ll also note (in a minute, anyway) that the epigraph for this chapter focuses on Chach’s Order of Radiants, the Dustbringers Releasers.
“Words of Radiance” Radiants: I’m going to do something different for Part 3. Because the epigraphs for this Part are very distinct from one another, and only rarely tied directly together, it would be difficult to talk about them as a group. (As I discovered with the Listener songs, much to my chagrin. Buh.) So I’m going to deal with each one briefly as we go. Except that this week I’m going to look at two of them, because it didn’t occur to me until this week, so this will address the Chapters 35 and 36 epigraphs.
Chapter 35, the opening snippet for our glimpses into the in-world book titled “Words of Radiance,” codified a couple of things for us. One, the Nahel bond is indeed the thing that makes Radiants… Radiants. As in, it’s not (as I had once suspected) just any kind of spren bond granting Surgebinding powers, but forms the basis of the specific structure laid out for the Orders. Two, as we all take for granted now, each Order accesses two and only two Surges, overlapping one another so that each Surge can be used by two and only two Orders. The following graphic representation may or may not be useful, but IIRC it has been confirmed by WoB to be accurate.
Chapter 36 gives us a juicy little morsel about the Dustbringers: that they would beat you severely about the head and shoulders if you used that epithet instead of their preferred identification as Releasers. (In the Prelude, Kalak thought of them as “Dustbringers” and you’ll notice that his Willshapers are directly opposite them on the map. Do you suppose that there’s frequently conflict between Heralds, Orders, and spren when they’re opposites?) Another thing we learn here is that the common people found them terrible, and maybe as bad as Voidbringers. Their Surges are Division and Abrasion, which do seem like they’d have serious destructive potential, and they can make stone burn (or at least smolder) according to the Prelude.
Shipping Wars: So all you peoples on the Kaladin-Shallan ship can have fun with this scene. I shall merely point out that the trope of “they hate each other at first, and then they fall madly in love later” has been vastly overplayed in most forms of literature, and I trust Brandon will not play it. So there.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when we catch up with the same meeting from Adolin’s angle, and see the real ship launched. Shallan-Adolin FTW!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Now that JordanCon is over, she would like to remind one and all that Team Sanderson intends to be present in force at Sasquan (WorldCon) this summer. Y’all should come, and look for Wetlander at the registration tables, because she’d love to meet you in person.
In this chapter, Shallan and Kadalin reminded me of my sister and I when we were growing up. We fought about alomst everything.
This chapter serves two purposes. The first (before Shallan reaches the meeting of the King, the Brightlords and Brightladies) starts Shallan on her path to truly embracing what it will mean to be a member of the Lightweavers. It is just more than learning to Lightweave. Rather, she starts to learn what is behind her powers. She starts learning that a lie and the truth are the opposite sides of the same coin — merely present a different picture of the same object.
The second part of the chapter (her confrontation with Kaladin) is a scene where Brandon uses humor for these characters to reinforce their initial opinions of the other character (i.e. the boot scene). It is the break between the seriousness of Shallan thoughts at during the first half of the chapter and her immenent meeting with Dalinar and Nevani.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
We can speculate as much as we wish about the future relationship between Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin. The author is, of course, not beholden to our wishes or prognostications. Nevertheless, he has already revealed a deep fascination that exists between Kaladin and Shallan near the end of WOR. Whether that fascination and admiration will turn into a romantic involvement or a deep fraternal type relationship is another matter. Shallan is already sort of committed to Adolin and is physically drawn to him. It does not seem that she has the same physical attraction for him, however, unless his reservation is a purely cultural Alethi thing. As to not following a common fiction motif of initial disdain turning into love, another one that is common both in literature and life is a young woman finding a powerful, eligible male figure and latching on to him. Why should Sanderson reject the former for the latter?
STBLST @2 – “Why should Sanderson reject the former for the latter?”
Because I want him to!
Heh. Seriously, though, I don’t think the latter trope is used much any more, for one thing – at least, not to the point where I find it ubiquitous. For another thing, while his position of power was initially a point in his favor for her, I see genuine affection, attraction, and understanding between Adolin and Shallan. Not complete understanding, of course; he doesn’t understand her fierce refusal to be protected, as one example – but that’s in large part because she hasn’t yet told him her backstory. However, he has allowed her to see past the fashion-boy/soldier/duelist persona to the intelligent, thoughtful, sensitive man underneath, which is extremely rare for him.
It just occurred to me that it’s quite possible that Dalinar will be blamed for killing Sadeas, and then Adolin will be in the same position Shallan was – the father willingly carrying the blame for a killing committed by the child. Maybe that will be the point where she’ll open up and tell him about her past, and then he’ll understand her a whole lot better.
Also, her spren apparently talks to him; I just realized the possible significance of the fact that Pattern told Adolin which room he’d chosen for Shallan. Uh… Okay, I’ll put that on hold and talk about it when we get there, but that’s got to mean something.
For my part, I see Kaladin’s role in Shallan’s life as becoming something of a replacement for Helaran. YMMV.
I’d say Shallan gained resolve following her encounter with Tyn (her growth is clearly exemplified in the chapter title). It follows that Kalak would also have been an appropriate Herald to grace this chapter, but I guess Kaladin needed a shout-out and that’s why Chana won out. And then there’s the epigraph connection to Chana, which Alice pointed out.
Speaking of which…HOORAY for weekly epigraph discussions!!! :-)
Chapter 35 epigraph
Taking a couple of lines out of context:
1) Does “…the nature of each bond’s placement…” mean bonds can be placed differently (in a Rosharan human) with different outcomes? And that only one placement is the correct Nahel bond? I’m not sure I want to go there because it opens up a whole basket of new questions.
2) “…those caught in it’s grip…” (Nahel bond’s grip) almost sounds like a bad thing. Are there negative consequence to the Nahel bond we haven’t heard about yet or is this just archaic terminology confusing me?
Chapter 36 epigraph
Holy kapow, Batman. Methinks
DustbringersReleasers have disintegrator raygunspowers.And finally department
We learn in this chapter that Pattern can affect the physical realm, albeit in a very small way. I don’t recall any other Nahel spren doing so (to this point in the book). Am I misremembering?
Have you considered the possibility that the pictures of the heralds are just chosen randomly every chapter and that Brandon dons his black gloves and goatee every Thursday to laugh maniacally as people bend their minds into pretzels trying to answer a riddle that doesn’t exist.
(It’s a great way to release tension when you don’t yet have the abilities of an Epic)
@Wetlandernw: I’ve always thought the little attraction the two feel each other was a bit overwhelmed by how they use the others as replacements for their siblings: it’s directly said in Kaladin’s case, but considering how Shallan viewed Helaran it seems pretty reasonable that Kaladin can assume a similar role.
Also, although the Alethi are reserved, I’m always reminded of when Kaladin sees the army heading off: both Kaladin and Shallan acknowledge the nascent feelings…and resolve to basically ignore them.
Although as I said in the last chapter’s reread, Shallan and Adolin’s causal working is against the general trope but it fits with what Sanderson has done with other more arranged relationships. So whether or not that continues or he decides to go against it (as he likes to strive against his own habits as well), is something I look forward to seeing! (If I was a betting man I’d stick with Adolin and Shallan though, Kaladin and Shallan just have too much pseudo-sibling feelings for each other).
Compared to later arguments Kaladin did pretty well in this one. Probably helps he doesn’t start from a wrong position like those later ones…
@Ways: Besides Syl playing tricks (which as Kaladin points out are basically manifestations of how her powers work), the closest I can think is when she carried the leaf. But unlike Pattern, Syl needs to be focusing to do so. Although Pattern is farther along in the bond than her – it’s possible that plays a small role.
ChocolateRob @5
Yes, but BWS is so into foreshadowing and scavenger hunts and the like that I am leaning away from that particular possiblity. Besides, there has been plenty of congruence to date, which seems to indicate an intentional connection. It’s fun to play with, regardless.
FenrirMoridin @6
You’re right, Syl carried the blackbane leaf to Kal in WoK, so this instance with Pattern affecting the physical realm is not a first or unique. Darn. I thought perhaps it was important for some reason.
I agree with those who think the Kaladin/Shallan relationship is more of a brother/sister one than romantic, and for the same reason as Alice. I’d probably be disappointed if Brandon doesn’t keep Adolin and Shallan together, but I suspect if he does do something else with their relationship he’ll do it in such a way that I’ll have to change my mind.
I’m looking forward to finally learning more about the other Orders. The graphic above just fuels my curiousity. Details. Must have details. We needs them, indeed we do.
Welcome to the full time gig, Alice!
I hadn’t focused on the fact that Willshapers and Dustbringers were on opposite sides of the KR order diagram, but that is some fairly observant-based speculation there. I also wonder if the Heralds have conflict with the Orders/Heralds opposite of their Order on the KR diagram. If so, it would be interesting to note that each Herald’s opposite is also of a different sex, so we could read into that as well (also, Jezrien’s opposite is his daughter, so that conflict could lead to an awkward family dynamic).
I’m pulling for Adolin and Shallan to work out; I really don’t believe that Brandon would subject us to a drawn out love triangle like Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin, with the predictable end result of that being our protagonist of book one ending up with the protagonist of book two.
(Plus I really like the Adolin/Shallan match and would love for each of them to end up with their match in a simple, straight-forward way and not a stereotypically convoluted and drawn out way that we get from other fantasy stories. I don’t want Shallan to do the whole “falling for one guy before realizing that the annoying guy who she initially couldn’t stand was the right one for her all along” thing.)
One of the things I noticed pretty early on with that graphic is how Windrunners and Lightweavers are on opposite ends of the spectrum: which reflects how Kaladin and Shallan are pretty big opposites in general (especially in how they deal with trauma: using memories as a scourge to punish versus blocking them out to keep going).
I think the biggest problem Adolin and Shallan might have going on is they might be a bit too attached to the relationship being arranged. It’s adorable that they are both enthused for it and clearly attracted for one another, but both Dalinar and Jasnah were rather hesitant about it (not that either of them are the best judge of character). Fortunately the end of book 2 changes up at least the power balance in it, and I think after they deal with that they’ll have a stronger relationship (if they still have it).
Pattern’s ability to influence the material world seems to be related to his inability to leave it. At this point of the story he is not yet able to turn invisible and can pick locks; while Syl can be visible or invisible at will but finds carrying a leaf difficult. Wyndle has the opposite case where he is unable to be visible or have any affect on the material world.
Concerning the “They hate each other, they later fall in love” trope, I am with Alice. I believe it may have been featured in every single romantic comedy filmed in the last decades. I am personally so fed up with it, I have come to believe people needs to hate each other to form a solid union, which is laughable.
My own feelings upon reading the exchange between Shallan and Kaladin was one of deep annoyance. I had no opinion on the Shallan/Adolin bethrotal as they had yet to meet, but I did not want to read about Shallan and Kaladin hitting on each others after spending 3 books burning in anger towards the other.
After Shallan and Adolin met, let’s just say their first meeting, followed by their first date convinced me they are a good match. I also do want to see the good, nice guy get the girl for once as he always seem to end the loser in pretty much anything produced lately. Oh, you are nice and handsome, but I prefer mister dark, dangerous, unstable standing over there, because we have chemistry…
It is also adorable Adolin deeply, secretly wants the union to work because he is desperate over ever finding someone. He did opened more with Shallan then he did with the other ones, obviously more at ease with her easy ways then Janala haughtyness.
Shallan genuily seem to care about Adolin, so it is a good sign. As for Pattern, he did talk to Adolin. Had any other sprens talk to being other then they knight? I do not know if it is significant in any way as I recall Pattern talking to the scholars as well.
When I look at that graphic representation my head explodes.
I’m trying to remember if Syl has spoken with the members of Bridge 4. They’ve seen her, and she’s shown them the way to things…but I don’t think she’s communicated with them? So maybe talking to others is what makes Pattern special in how he can react with physical stuff.
If anyone could find a quote where she did it would be appreciated.
I think Pattern talking to Adolin was more a sign that he knew he needed to go outside Shallan to actually get her that room (since just talking was getting Pattern nowhere). But I’m biased, I want Pattern to have a sense of self-preservation. It hurts me when he says Shallan will kill him (although he has good reason).
FenierMoridin @41 Syl talks to Sigzil.
Sigzil looked toward Kaladin. “She talks . . . She talks like a real person.”
Words of Radiance, Chapter 41 Scars.
So Syl can make herself heard to others if she wishes. There were other members of Bridge Four there at the time, Rock and Lopen, I do not know if either of them talked to Syl or could hear her.
So both Pattern and Syl can talk to humans.
Pattern had already demonstrated the ability to make other people hear him – Tyn heard him repeating Jasnah’s words back in Chapter 34, and I think before that he was making Shallan’s slaves nervous with his whispering and whimpering during the storm.
And… oh, blast. Apparently he spoke to Vathah & co. in that same chapter.
They didn’t know whose voice it was, but apparently Pattern decided that it was not only possible to allow other people hear him, but necessary at times. Oh, well; I guess talking to Adolin wasn’t a first for him. It does seem to have been more deliberate and less panicked, though. (Or maybe I’m grasping at straws, because I want it to matter.)
::sighs deeply::
@sanderfan: Thanks! I wasn’t sure because I couldn’t remember anything specific, and I’ve tricked myself into thinking I read something I didn’t before.
I wonder if there are so many similarities between what Syl and Pattern can do (limited manipulation, talking to people, etc.) because most higher spren have a similar range of things they can do, or if Cryptics and honorspren just end up able to do these things (maybe that partially drives their hostility, besides the obvious honor vs. liespren stuff). We’ve seen so little of the others, although Wyndle seems pretty different (and we’ve gotten so little of Ivory!).
First off I do want to say the Orders and Surges on that chart have been confirmed.
I do disagree with your assessment of the Nahel bond. The Nahel bond /is/ what gives a Surgebinder their power, it is not restricted exclusively to Knights Radiant. The Knights Radiant after all are only an organization of Surgebinders. If I’m reading your post correctly it seems like you are saying that the whole structure of two surges per order was peculiar to the Orders themselves and that other Surgebinders could have different combinations? Which isn’t the case. The spren started bonding (i.e. Nahel bonding) people in direct imitation of the Heralds and the honorblades, so the 10 combinations of Surges are the only combinations there are. So the chart describes all Surgebinders, not just Radiants. (Hopefully this makes sense)
So I’m actually highly skeptical of the whole “Dustbringers prefer to be called Releasers” thing. Mostly because it breaks the pattern of order names (which would annoy me to no end, like seriously I would be very angry at Brandon for ruining things) but also I’m more inclined to go with what a Herald says over a text that has been “sanitized” by the Vorin Church. Though I will admit that the whole opposing orders thing is an interesting thought.
@@@@@ Alice: Comment 3: Wow. And Kaladin totally killed who he is replacing.
On an unrelated note, thank you for your recommendation of The Speed of Dark. It is astonishingly accurate, especially for a female “normal” author writing in a male autistic perspective. Not flawless, but remarkably accurate and appropriate for her audience.
Xaladin @19 – Wasn’t that amazing? Extremely thought-provoking, at least for me. I don’t suppose it’s possible to be quite flawless in getting that perspective, but she clearly spent a lot of time listening, reading, researching, and experiencing that world.
Also – ooooh. I’d forgotten, momentarily, that Kaladin actually killed Helaran. That complicates matters…
WeiryWriter @18… Um… let me get back to this discussion tomorrow. I’m not sure I understand/agree with what you’re saying, but it’s been a long day and a late night. I’ll have to reread your comments in the morning. :)
Any potential for a Kaladin Shallan relationship will surely be dashed when she learns that he killed her brother, Helaran, anyway.
Shallan/Adolin FTW indeed.
I’d like to suggest to all the people who skipped over the small “about the author” text at the end of the post that they might want to go back and read it this time. It’s different than it was on Alice’s last post, and potentially of high interest to the types who frequent these comment threads….
On a side note about opposing orders being at odds one with another…
We have Windrunners and Lightweavers: both Pattern and Syl have epxress a dislike of each other. Alright, more Syl then Pattern, but we gather there was animiosity there.
From the Jasnah chapter, I seemed to have glimpsed the shadow of a dislike towards the Highspren, incidently linked to the Skybreakers, accidentally opposing the Elsecallers on the chart….
We could also interpret Kalak refusal to use a term prefered by a given order as a mark of disrespect from an order opposing his own.
I do not believe we have enough clues to conclude in one way of another, but it may seem like this could be a theory. It is also interesting to see Renarin’s Truthwatcher is directly opposing Dalinar’s Bondsmith…. Could we foresee a conflict between father and his youngest son? It would reinforce my personal belief Renarin will side with Adolin, no matter what.
The funny thing re: woman with a shardblade as a potential assassin is that as far as I can see, there is no way to stop a man with a shardblade in such a scenario either. I mean, maybe they think that they would be more on guard against a man, but nobody can be eternally vigilant against everybody including servants, guards, supposed friends, etc. Not to mention that it likely would be pretty suicidal for a woman to murder a high noble anyway.
It is also very interesting that despite Vathah having clearly been won over by Shallan’s shardblade-fu and giving her honest and good advice and service here, we’ll learn that he isn’t actually expecting her to keep her word to his crew even in this chapter.
And oh, yea, I also have been massively annoyed by the boots shenangians from the start, which, entirely expectedly culminated in difficulties here. Blessedly, this didn’t lead to a massive derail of Shallan’s plot-line that I have been dreading based on my WoT experiences.
Of course, I was equally irritated by Shallan’s upcoming decisions re: Kholins too, because I was still seeing her through Elayne lense at that point.
As to the ships – not only has the whole “hate at first sight leading to mad love eventually” been massively overdone, but “feisty noblewoman falling in love with a scrappy self-made man” is an even hoarier cliche, IMHO. Not to mention all the other romance novel tropes like death of Helaran being just a bump on a highway to HEA, etc. So, I really, really hope that Sanderson doesn’t go there, leave alone into the dreaded triangle. Please. Pretty please!
Huh… does anyone else get the sense Lightweaving shares a lot with Forgery?
(Isilel – So true about the ships!! It was really funny in the beta – some people liked Shallan/Adolin, and some wanted Shallan/Kaladin, and one or two even wanted a trio, but the overwhelming voice was “whatever you do, just don’t do a triangle!!!!!!!”)
I don’t see an all-consuming type affair between Kaladin and Shallan. There is just too much happening in their world that requires their attention. The intense mutual attraction that they have finally developed is based on their personal qualities and mutual needs. Kaladin needs a cheerful person who has overcome great obstacles in order to keep him from brooding about his difficult life and sinking into periods of depression. Shallan needs someone who shares her curiosity and analytic mind, and is intense in his relationships. They are good for one another. However, such a close relationship would, presumably, be resented by Adolin who has tended to harbor some animosity toward Kaladin. How that triangular relationship will be handled by BWS remains to be seen (hopefully sooner rather than later). Nor is the fact that Kaladin killed her brother such a drawback to a close relationship. He was only defending someone to whom he was bound against an aggressor who had killed many of his men. How could Shallan not understand when she had killed both parents in self-defense and in preventing the death of her other brother. She would be expected to fully accept Kaladin’s admission and apology for Helaran’s death. I can just imagine such a conversation. “Shallan, I need to tell you something disturbing about me. I was the one who killed your brother in battle – not Amaram”. Shallan, teary-eyed, “It’s a shame Helaran was such a good person. I need to understand how he came to be an attempted assassin. Perhaps some people I know can enlighten me.” “Who?” “I can’t tell you yet.” “Meanwhile, there is something else you need to know to understand me. As a young girl, I killed my mother in self-defense”. “What! why would your mother want to kill you?” “She saw what I could do with lightweaving ability and felt the need to eliminate what she perceived as a danger to the world”. “Your story gets more remarkable the more you tell. How could you have grown into the woman you have become, with a cheerful disposition to boot?” “Please don’t mention boots. I already told you in the chasm, it helps if you’re crazy”. “By the way, why did you not show any Windrunner ability in the chasms? It would have been really helpful.” “I lost those abilities for a while. I can’t explain now.” “I hope that we won’t need to keep secrets from one another much longer”. “Me too.”
27. STBLST
While excess secret keeping is a hoary plot device, I just don’t see that conversation happening. Hilarious as it would be.
On a completely different note, what irritates the mathematian in me, is that there are 10!/(10*2) = 181,440 different ways to arrange that chart of surges and their pairings. It should be possible to have 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 55 different kinds of pairings of surges possible in those different charts. Not just the 10 different pairing that the KR used.
Why do we have only the pairings we have? The best guess I have, is that, like Adolusioum shattering into different shards, there is a random element and it could have gone a different way, potentially. In physics, we call this Symmetry Breaking, and is why we have some of the physical laws we have, instead of different potential ones.
Or maybe Parshendi and Aimians can use some of these other possible pairings.
28. ZenBossanova
The only explanation I have is that the combination of Surges were (probably) designed by Honor himself and that 10 is a thematically important number to Honor (for reasons that Brandon has alluded to in interviews but refuses to explain in any satisfactory way).
The first Surgebinders were the Heralds, who got their Surgebinding abilities from the Honorblades. Which were a gift to them from Honor as a part of the Oathpact. (We don’t know whether there was a reason the Surges were combined that way for a reason or it was just random) At some later point the spren looked at the bond between the Heralds and the honorblades and were basically like “We can do that” and started bonding people (this is why all the dead shardblades are shaped like swords instead of pretty much anything else, their base form is a sword in direct imitation of the honorblades). So there are only ten kinds of surgebinders because the spren are copying the honorblades, of which there are only 10.
I hasd a thought about opposites like you mentioned with the dustbringers/releasers vs. willshapers. I believe that the top half of the orders are more related to honor and the bottom half to cultivation. Shallan and Kaladin are opposites and Shallan is very focused on knowledge while Kaladin is focused on, well… whatever he is focused on. I feel like i have had the greatest inspiration ever and i cant communicate… nvmd. Just honor and cultivation, think about it.
Pattern talking to Adolin may be less about Adolin’s romantic relationship with Shallan and more to do with Pattern being a cryptic.
The various Spren have different degrees to which they can interact with the world. Syl hates becoming visable to anyone other than Kaladin or Rock (who can apparantly see her no matter what kind of mood she is in).
This makes me think on some level at least her distaste may just be because for her it’s difficult to manifest fully enough to do so.
Pattern on the otherhand cannot completely dissappear at all.
Wyndle isn’t visable per se, but apparenlty when he makes vines for Lift to climb those are.
So I’m guessing Pattern choosing to speak to others independant of Shallan’s orders may just be because it’s less of a hassle for him.
On the possiblility of Kaladin and Shallan: I’m against it. Alice and Wetlander are right (as seems to be a habit for both), it’s way to cliche at this point and Shallan/Adolin works.
What I think Shallan and Kaladin have is not romantic or even “brotherly” love but rather a reflection of the good qualities in themselves viewed in another. Let’s face it, they both have crippling self-esteem issues. But they each can see the same traits in the other that their respective spren saw in them that deemed them worthy of becoming a KR.
It might or might not be briefly confused with a crush or infatuation by the two at some point in the story, but I don’t think its actually a feeling with enough substance to make a relationship work.
To be honest I’d almost rather see Kaladin not end up paired off at all in the end. Why every protaganist ever always has to wind up romantically paired off I’ll never know. It’s annoying and doesn’t even follows real world demographics. Not everyone ends up married afterall.
@STBLST: I can see parts of that conversation happening, except it’s Syl telling Kaladin he should tell Shallan that, and Kaladin refusing.
I do understand why people are worried by a triangle though, and it reminds me of a lot of the reactions I’ve seen to the second Mistborn book. I’ve introduced several friends to the Cosmere books, and I remember one of them messaging me with his worries when he was halfway or so through The Well of Ascension. Sanderson swerved it by the end there, but Vin is a very different character from Shallan.
I wonder if, when Sanderson had both Kaladin and Shallan reflect on their feelings and basically refuse them (Kaladin with how Adolin and Shallan fit and he could just be grumpy about that, Shallan with blocking off her train of thought on Kaladin) if he meant that to let the readers know that it was just that episode in the chasms and both characters were moving on…but by bringing it up (as the characters would, obviously – it’d be weird not to think back on such a major life event as that harrowing experience) he just added fuel to the fire.
Although…there is a fifth option (after either pairing, trio, or love triangle): we do know there’s going to be the timeskip, and who knows how feelings could change as people grow during that (assuming Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin all survive)?
@27: The opposite attracts is an often use notion in many love stories depicted to us. It falls on the premise individuals need to find their exact opposite suc as to counter-balance their weakness. Whereas there is some truth in this statement, some measure of similarity is required for an union to last and the said opposition must not be on subjects that truly matters.
In the specific case of Kaladin and Shallan, I do think such a pairing would never work, on the long run. Why? Your argument stated Kaladin’s overly depressed mood needs someone cheerful to balance him out. Even if I do agree with part of this, I find being forced to drag forward an persistantly negative person is draining, tireding and would lead to conflict as happy and positive Shallan would always see her mood tempered down by her mood husband.
As for Shallan needing someone to connect on an intellectual level, I do feel there is a common concensus in the fandom that Kaladin is a much smarter individual than Adolin, which is something I strongly disagree with. Kaladin has had an extensive education, as far as education goes on Roshar whereas Adolin seemed to have been tutored in the basics only and perhaps not even that. Besides, we have indications Adolin is smarter then he lets one, playing dumb most of the time while showing a certain lack of confidence towards his own general education.
Alice @20 I will try to keep this short, as it is off-topic, but completeness demands this. I was only about 2/3 of the way through the book when I posted #19. The latter part of the book is a little more dubious. It is not believable to me that 5 out of 7 autistics would have changed their minds on a dime and taken the treatment while it was still in its early experimental phase. They didn’t even resolve their concerns (the only change was that they were no longer being threatened). I would believe 1 or 2 going for it, but not the rest. Of course, the audience the book is intended for is not autistic (like me), so while the ending disappointed me, YMMV. It was still a good recommendation; thank you.
On a slightly more on-topic note, I am looking forward to reading more about Renarin. I am curious to see what Brandon does with him (and I trust it will be awesome).
Xaladin @34 – (OT for anyone else!) – It’s true that the number who chose the treatment was a bit stretchy, though once the external coercion was taken away, I don’t know what the actual peer pressure would do. The thing I loved about the ending was that she didn’t go where I expected. By that time, I sort of assumed she would have him take the treatment, have it work, and he and the girl would live happily ever after. (Or the treatment would work, but would have horrible side effects or something like that, and maybe Marjory would stay by his side through it all.) I didn’t expect that the treatment would be successful, but that it would really change his personality and interests so much that he would never return to fencing & Marjory. So it was a very bittersweet ending, and it made me think all over again about what would happen to people we love if we really could take away their perceived disabilities. And… who is to decide what would be “better” for the individual?
I too am curious about where Brandon will go with Renarin in this regard. He already healed his eyesight; will he “heal” the synapses? or will he handle that some other way? Since Brandon was the one that recommended “The Speed of Dark” I have to think he’s considered it pretty thoroughly already.
That’s one of the things that interests me: Stormlight seemingly does not affect parts that the Radiant doesn’t see as wrong (or at least we’ve seen something like that with Kaladin’s scar).
So applying this to Renarin, the Stormlight acted on his eyes, but not his synapses (at least Renarin seems to be acting mostly the same – it’s hard to know though because the viewpoints pay so little attention to him). Stormlight doesn’t seem to mess with mental stuff, or not nearly as much. It does provide a drive to do something – the more Stormlight you have the more it pushes you to do something – but it doesn’t address the underlying differences it seems.
Re: Renarin healing his synapses: That is delicate road to go down, for sure, and I’m not sure I would be happy to see it. My partner has autism, and it is a part and parcel of who he is. He has some weaknesses…but some unique strengths too. Exasperated as I sometimes get, I would not want him “healed”, he wouldn’t be him anymore, he’d be someone else.
Renarin’s situation is a bit more complicated because he has seizures and stemming, and those do unambiguously affect his life negatively, at least the seizures do, maybe you could argue about the stemming. Roshar does not have our understanding of autism, so the interpersonal aspects which to me would be very problematic to deeem needing of healing, they may not even realize pair with his “fits.”. But he certainly feels that his seizures limit him and may well want to heal those…and I wonder if he has tried. If so, I can see storm light being subjective enough to only change that aspect of himself. I can’t recall if we saw another seizure after he healed his vision. I know he did have an interesting episode at the oath gate, but I associated that with coping with his Truthwatching ability, an undoubtedly weird experience made more difficult for someone whose autism likely makes sensory inputs, such as perhaps random visions of the future, more intense than what a “neurotypical” person might experience.
wcarter
Check your shoutbox.
I’m goint to throw out a new topic for some speculation since it’s Sunday and comments are slowing down. OK?
There are 10 circular craters on the western edge of the Shattered Plains housing the war camps.
1) The number of craters suggests a tie to Rosharan Cosmerology somehow, be it heralds, orders, surges or something else. My gut feeling (i.e., no evidence) is the craters have something to do with the heralds themselves.
2) The shape and arrangement of the craters may have some relevance. They appear to be perfect circles on the WoK maps (which may not be completely accurate), with the edges all touching. Now that’s just weird and unnatural, and indicates some kind of sentient root cause. The Shattered Plains “map” in WoR (by Nazh, I believe) suggests some kind of symmetry to the Plains, but has me otherwise perplexed because I don’t understand it.
Anybody have some ideas?
@38 Ways
On Shoutbox stuff umm wow. I can’t believe I forgot that. The past couple of weeks have not been good for me. I’ve been slammed at work and had to deal with a death in the family ( the main reasons I was not at Jordancon).
On the craters: The maps almost have to be artistic license because the plateaus themselves are not truly symmetrical even if the layout was at one time. Centuries of wind and rain have taken their toll and some are far more eroded than others.
My guess is the craters did of course have supernatural beginings but if they are still perfectly circular (an impossibility in nature), then either they are kept that way by ardents using soul casters or some other, unknown force.
Hi all! I read and reread WoT, followed Leigh’s reread of WoT all by my lonesome self. When the reread bug caught me again as I was holding WoK (or rather staring at the title on my kindle), I came to TOR to find out if there was a reread happening here.
Let’s just say I am extremely happy right now.
Here is something for you to laugh at or roll your eyes at: I did not know about anything about Cosmere. The comments mentioned Adonalsium, intriguied, I visited Coppermind (thanks to Wetlander, I think).
And I read up on Adonalsium, which lead to various worlds where I realized about Cosmere and how all the books were interconnected (I have read Mistborn series), that led to how Hoid can hop around, which lead to the letter, and all the names it mentions, then the 16 shards and… damn, I am still on that site.
The magic systems were so different that it did not occur to me that they were connected. *Headdesk*
Here is a wild theory: The bead that Gavaliar Kholin had, was it Hoid’s Lerasium? Here is my reasoning: The bead is technically lost to all who know about it, since Szeth has hidden it. The second letter mentions this: “Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?”
@38 Ways: Kasbal’s experiment that he showed to Shallan… a musical note produces patterns in the sand, based on which the cites were built. Expanding on this, if an ‘event’ happened in the middle of the shattered plains, the vibrations that broke the land being symmetrical is not that much of stretch, since Roshar is so found of symmetry.
Although, how something can destroy the land to form the plateaus but leave the buildings on it, intact is not clear.
WeiryWriter @@@@@ 18 &29 – If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that:
Is this based on WoB, that this is the only thing that can happen? Or is it deduced from the fact that we see a reflection of the Heralds in the KR Orders and we don’t see anything else?
If the former, well, okay then. If Brandon says it, the Ultimate Authority has spoken and there’s no point in further questions.
If the latter… well, I can agree with #1 and #3, but I had a distinct impression that there may have been a bit of fumbling about on #2 and #4, with spren attempting to give humans access to the Surges a bit randomly. It was only when Ishar saw what was happening, and stepped in (quite possibly with the active support of Honor and Cultivation) to organize things, that it was restricted to the Knights Radiant and the Orders that reflect the Heralds themselves. Further, in imposing this structure, the spren collectively agreed that this would be the only form of Surgebinding they would ever participate in ever again; and so any other Surgebinding disappeared from that time forward, until nothing remains to even hint at the possibility except… Except Dalinar’s visions, and the Parshendi’s rather different experience and memories.
(All of that leads me to a theory that needs to be teased out, so I’ll do that later. I’ll report back if it turns into anything.)
Ways @@@@@38 – I’m pretty sure the warcamp circles were originally artificially constructed rather than a natural feature. Mostly, I base that on Eshonai’s thought about the structure she called home, “a small collapsed dome. It reminded her of the ones on the edge of the Shattered Plains, actually – the enormous ones that the humans called warcamps. Her people had lived in those, before abandoning them for the security of the Shattered Plains…” And, of course, the rather obviously unnatural look of ten circles all neatly lined up and spaced along the base of the hills next to the plains; as you say, they seem to have a much more intelligent design. If, indeed, the warcamps were at one time a series of huge domes (and I have no justifiable notion of who would have created them, or why), back before the plains were shattered, we don’t have to come up with a natural cause for them anyway.
There’s a lot of evidence that the Shattered Plains were a result of some massive disruption not far from the Oathgate, and that originally, the shattering was very symmetrical indeed. It isn’t so obvious any longer, because of weathering and crem buildup, but it was. In any case, I think it’s reasonable that, while the domes were broken, the circular nature of the now-warcamps was left relatively intact because they were far enough from the central event to avoid the disruption, and perhaps there was sufficient difference in the underlying rock formations that the shattering simply stopped shortly before it reached them.
Which doesn’t answer the question at all of why they were there in the first place, of course!
Purnima @41
Welcome to the Storm Cellar! Visit often and share your thoughts. Hope you had a blast surfing the 17th Shard/Coppermind black hole. Really! ;-)
I don’t think Gavilar’s black bead and Hoid’s Lerasium bead are one in the same. The reason is because I heard Brandon tell Firemyst (while I was standing in a WoR signing line behind her) that Hoid ate his Lerasium bead. This presumably occurs when Hoid downs the contents of a vial somewhat later in WoR than where we are now in the reread. Firemyst and I compared notes and agreed we both heard the same thing. No one else, to my knowledge, has reported hearing anything remotely similar. So, did we not understand correctly (it was noisy) or lose communication some other way? I’m not certain, but I’m rolling with the “Hoid ate it” supposition for now. He seems to be gathering different forms of investiture and eating the bead fits right in.
And…I’d always imagined Gavilar’s “bead” to be around an inch or 2 in diameter and the Lerasium to be much smaller. It’s interesting to note how we readers–myself included–often form an opinion about something based on our own experiences, with little or no evidence to support the opinion. I may very well have done that regarding the relative size of these beads. And then someone comes along and asks “Well, what about______? Yep.
And @42
You and Wetlandernw @43 have both reminded me of forgotten tidbits. Was Kabsal’s demo all smoke and mirrors? Perhaps not. Then there’s Eshonai’s collapsed dome. Thanks for your input.
Ways @44 – Kabsal’s demo with the cymatics was definitely NOT smoke and mirrors – my daughter’s science fair project this year is along the same lines. Cymatics is a very real, and very cool, thing. Whether it’s likely to work on the scale of the great cities without some divine intervention might be another question – but hey, with a couple of Shardholders hanging out, lack of divine intervention isn’t really an obstacle.
Also – Purnima @42 – Hi!! Welcome! Did you catch up, or just jump? Either way, it’s all good – and it’s much more fun to do a reread when you’re participating real-time in the discussion, so I’m glad you’re here. :)
Just something I noted with regards to the possible opposing Orders of Knights. And if this has already been mentioned, I am sorry. Has anyone noticed that the Windrunners and Lightweavers are also directly opposite each other on the graphic? Perhaps their own abilities are part of what causes some of Kal and Shallan’s issues? Also, I just joined the FB Storm Cellar group… thanks for having me!
@46 RobertMee
I don’t know if any of the Orders were actually out and out enemies (we simply don’t have enough information yet, though it actually seems unlikely given their mutual enemy was bent on the destruction of mankind).
We do know that Honor Spren–or at the very least Syl–find cryptics/Lie Spren distasteful (probably their opposing views on honsety but who knows?). But whether or not the rivalry extended to the human members of those two repsective orders is unknown.
If the feelings of the Spren do indicate alliances or hatreds among the orders however, then to me at least it seems like Skybreakers have just as much chance of being rivals with either Lightweavers or
Windrunners, or both, as they do with each other given their obsession with the law.
Syl flat out said she cares only about doing what’s “right” and nothing about the law or enforcing it. Shallan made her goal as a Lightweaver try to turn her “lies” into the best possible truth.
Neither of these are virtues likely to be valued by a group that obsesses over carrying out the law to the letter no matter what.
Bondsmiths I’m guessing had no major enemies among the other orders given their name (unless they just really sucked at their job).
While we have also seen an Elsecaller, a Truthwatcher and an Edge Dancer, there’s not enough information about them for me to try and speculate on them yet let alone any of the remaining orders.
Wetlandernw, I am a fast reader, but not that fast! I like to read the comments, too, so I am still on WoK. But I am planning to follow along here – it’s great chance to ask questions and interact.
Btw, I just realized how much I rely on Word and Outlook to check my spellings! Feeling like 10 kinds of fools! ;)
Purnima @48 – There’s a reason I often write out my thoughts in Word first, and then copy it over into the comments… :) And aside from the spell-checking, there’s the back-up in case something glitches (usually my brain, sometimes the site) and I lose what I thought I’d put in here.
Purnima and wcarter
Are you two interested in joining the Stormcellar (private group) on Facebook? It is new–split off from the WoT Tor rereader group.
@44 Ways I’d always assumed Gavilar’s sphere was the same size as any other normal sphere (thumbnail sized); it’s just that whatever is inside it happened to suck in the light instead of produce it:
Note that he doesn’t say “It was odd: it was way too small;” he comments only on the odd glow.
I thought I’d read every post from the beginning of the reread of the first book, but this is the first I’ve heard of a facebook group?!
I think I’ve only posted once or twice but I love reading the summaries and insights from others.
@50 Ways I would love to, but I don’t actually have a Facebook account. It’s not always a good idea in my line of work. I will do everything I can to be at the next JordanCon though.
I’ve noticed a lot of folks here like to draw comparisons between the Stormlight Archives and WoT, and for good reason. As I have been reading this week’s comments, it occurred to me the best analogy for Kal and Shallan would probably be Rand and Egwene. I really don’t see a true romance budding. I like that they have built their relationship from antagonistic to friendly, but I think this will serve better to have two leaders of the “proto-radiants” who are not at odds, and working together to actually save the world. This avoids a continuing pattern of nothing getting accomplished due to no one working together. We’ve had nearly 2,000 pages of that in the SA, I’d like to see that change.
Regarding Renarin and the nature of his being on the spectrum and whether or not that would be “healed” by stormlight… I certainly hope that wouldn’t be the case. As we are constantly trying to teach our children, those who live with autism aren’t broken, they see the world differently, and process neurological stimulation differently. Myopia is a weakening of the muscles of the eye. It makes sense that would be something that would “fix” under the influence of stormlight. I would be really disappointed if that is how Mr. Sanderson handled Autism. From what I’ve read about him, and from having met him once, I highly doubt that would be the case. I believe he will explore those differences in the Renarin POV chapters, and it is for that reason that he has spent so much time researching it. I remember the article that circulated after Guardians of the Galaxy came out about the autistic boy who saw Drax as “someone who thinks like me!” I would love to see another positive representation of an heroic figure on the spectrum. That would be really cool to me.
I agree that the main point of the future Kaladin-Shallan relationship is that they strengthen each other. A romantic involvement may or may not happen and could interfere with their efforts in fighting the great danger that surrounds the survivors of the start of the Desolation. We can anticipate many set-backs, and Kaladin will have to deal with his feeling of failure at not preventing them. First, there will be his parents who he will probably not be able to rescue. Then there will be other victims for whom he feels responsible. Shallan can keep him on an even keel given her own example of rising above what could easily have been cripling elements in her life. She, in turn, needs his protection against Voidbringers and as she negotiates with the ever dangerous Ghostbloods in order to learn the truth of her family’s involvement with them and with other violent groups. Together they’e a very formidable pair, as evidenced by the killing of the chasmfiend in WOR.
I doubt that opposite-end orders of Radiants always had a rivalry going on. The Dustbringers seem like they weren’t very popular in general; Honorspren vs. Cryptics is described as a prominent (and unique) feature of spren politics; and I just don’t see Dalinar and Renarin arguing with each other a lot.
Ways @44: I’d be really, really surprised if the flashback in WoR actually shows Hoid eating (flakes of) his Lerasium bead. Rather, he’s consuming another metal, to take advantage of the powers he previously gained from eating his Lerasium. (I was quite certain it was bronze, which let him notice that Shallan was an Investiture-talented individual, but IIRC, WoB has hinted towards zinc or something instead.)
Also, I don’t think Hoid is gathering all forms of Investiture without discrimination — he has some more specific plan in mind.
As for Shallan + Adolin and Shallan + Kaladin … I have mixed feelings about them both. The intellectual gap between Shallan and Adolin really bothers me, reminding me too much of some of my own failed relationships. And it’s also hard for me to overlook the fact that Shallan made Kaladin start thinking about romance again, after completely repressing that aspect of life for a few years. But I also see problems with their pairing.
Really, I think what I want the most is just to see Kaladin in some happy relationship, due to my shared depression experiences with him. (I’m still rooting for that woman who trains him in horse-riding, but sadly I saw no evidence that Brandon was planning to expand her to be a more major character. :-( )
56. McKay B:
I just don’t see Dalinar and Renarin arguing with each other a lot: I actually do not see them arguing but they are polar opposites. Dalinar and Adolin are both natural swordsmen, but (forget the screaming and shardblade) Renarin fumbles even with the training blades. Though Sanderson has clearly not written anything to suggest that Dalinar is disappointed in his son, it is implied that Dalinar sees Renarin’s limitations (with fighting) and acknowledges that he will make a better ardent. So they are different personality-wise at least. Whether they would argue… that I do not know.
The intellectual gap between Shallan and Adolin really bothers me It bothers me, too. She is a little patronizing when she thinks to herself that she thinks of Andolin’s (hmm one dimension like qualities, can’t remember her exact phasing), to Kaladin’s rough around the edges, brooding, wisecracking qualities: Kaladin intrigues her. I have a feeling she is convincing herself to like Andolin to stay close to the powers that be, to tell them about parshmen and save her family. She definitely has better spark or chemistry with Kaladin.
Shallan’s big brother might not be as ideal as she thought him to be (she is inclined to see what she wants to see and not what is, and she might have built him up to epic proportions and lied to herself), thus there would be an opportunity for her to forgive Kaladin for killing him. There is a chance that Shallan-Andolin could turn out be a love triange after all. :( I do not want that.
55. STBLST But they can be formiddable pair without being romantic? Is that possible? Like I said, I would like to avoid the love traingle. They could be like Rand and Ewegene.
@58, Purnima, pairing need not be through marriage but through a desire to work together to accomplish mutual goals. An example in popular fantasy is the Harry-Hermione relationship. She brings a quick mind and he brings a willingness and drive to combat evil to the relationship, which is fraternal rather than romantic. He instigates their quests while her brilliance and abilities gets them out of tight situations. Similarly, I see Kaladin as initiating forays against the Voidbringers while she has the support and rescue function. The possible obstacle to the above anticipated close working relationship is the antagonism the Syl has shown for Cryptics. Kaladin can’t afford to lose the bond to Syl since that bond is the basis of his powers. We’ll just have to see how Brandon handles the relationships.
FWIW, I don’t think the “intellectual gap between Adolin and Shallan” is as big a deal as is often perceived. There is, most definitely, an education gap due to the culture, but Adolin has repeatedly shown that he is not stupid despite his facade. Neither education nor wordplay are exclusive measures of intelligence, though Kaladin and Shallan both tend to make that assumption.
I’m not often accused of being unintelligent, but I’m not great with quick comebacks in real time. I know stuff, I recognize patterns quickly, I’m great at logic puzzles, I write well, etc. – but I’m lousy at witty repartee. Not quite like Adolin, who sometimes doesn’t apparently even recognize the way Kaladin twists words, but enough like that I believe it’s short-sighted to assume that because Kaladin can snark circles around Adolin, that makes Kaladin actually somehow smarter.
@@@@@ 60 Wetlandernw: “There is, most definitely, an education gap due to the culture,” Exactly! Shallan thinks she is better matched with somebody like Kasbal. I hate the way she thinks about Andolin. I love Andolin as he is- his perception (recognizing that he has a lot of acquaintences, but no friends), his stubborness and non-whiney nature, his bravery that he proves time and again, his chivalry (when he saves a woman in Saladeas camp), his quick thinking (rushing to his horse when the chasmfield attacked the king), working for greater good rather than for personal glory (King attacks the chasmfield whereas Andolin follows his dad’s directions), his charm with women etc.
But Shallan disregards all this (albeit she does not know about it), and she sees a pretty boy with a rakish reputation, with whom she is comfortable (as he is not prickly like Kaladin). She sounds like an educated, patronizing, snob. *hmpf* I like her otherwise; it’s only when she starts *thinking* about Andolin, I want to smack her silly.
59. STBLST Yes! That could work!
Here is a question for you: What you describe sounds like Jasnah role… She freely admits that she does not know everything, but she is used to leading. I wonder how she will take to Shallan being the brains behind the operations. How will Jasnah-Shallan relationship work in Book3?
@60 I do believe many readers see only the facade Adolin has built for himself and not the man hiding within. There has been many clues scattered all through both books indicating the Adolin is projecting an outside persona quite different then his inner one.
One aspect that is often over looked is self-confidence. Adolin projects an aura of over confidence, loudly braggind about his skills, but on the inside, he is afraid he won’t be up to it. He doubts. He is insecure.
His behavior towards women, his difficulties at opening up and creating lasting friendships with his peers, his nervousness before duels he knows he should easily win all indicate a lack of self-confidence. The same can be said about his intellectual skills. When Shallan starts to act as a teacher and uses scholarly terms, he backs of and excuses himself stating he is useless at any of it… and yet he later admits he does get it, but was playing dumb.
Adolin is not stupid. In fact, he is rather smart. He is uneducated and he is not good at word play, but I do see “being equally good at wordplay” as significant enough to make or break a relationship. Both Shallan and Kaladin like to think themselves very smart: both are being condescending, but when push comes to shove, who ended being clever on the battlefield and saved the day? Adolin. Without him being smart enough to win his Plateau, Shallan would have never make it to the Oathgate and Kaladin would have arrived to find the army already beaten, washed away by the Everstorm.
FWIW, I think there are just as many gaps between Kaladin and Shallan’s education as there are between Adolin and Shallan’s, they’re just different – just because Kaladin knows surgery (something which seems “smart”) doesn’t mean he has any of the other aspects of education Shallan has, while Adolin shares knowledge of basic etiquette and the like that Kaladin didn’t have access to (and by the point he does has convinced himself he doesn’t care to). Adolin is smart, but he’s also highly educated – it’s just said education was almost entirely martial in nature, which is weird to our modern perspective.
So what Shallan was reacting to (and phrased quite poorly, because she did say Adolin was not brilliant with implies she thinks he’s not smart) was, imo, just a difference in how she thinks versus Adolin (where in this regard Kaladin is closer to her). It’s not just replying with witticisms, it’s the thought pattern that drives that.
Now whether Shallan’s reaction was:
1) a childish (maybe narrow-minded is a better word for it) lack of understanding of Adolin and his strengths
or
2) a fundamental difference in mindsets which ultimately make her and Adolin incompatible
is something we’ll need to wait and see in Book 3 about.
Personally I think the real situation is somewhere between those two extremes I just laid out, and something Shallan and Adolin will need to work on (which means no repressing it Shallan!).
I don’t think Adolin is dumb, and I don’t care about his lack of wordplay skills. (I’m more intellectual than my brother, but he’s verbally wittier. Meanwhile, Shallan’s wordplay is actually rather disappointing most of the time anyway.)
But what I see in Shallan + Adolin’s relationship is a lack of him challenging Shallan’s intellect in a way that will make her grow or be her best mental self. It’s not just that Adolin is uneducated; it’s that he doesn’t have a constant desire to learn what he can, as evidenced by his glyph-illiteracy (which was well within his reach even as a Rosharian male).
Although I suppose since one of her quasi-magical talents is rapidly blossoming others’ potential within themselves, she can hopefully inspire Adolin to develop that attitude of curiosity that he needs to be a good match for her. Hopefully.
@65: Does your partner need to mentally challenge you on an every day basis for your relationship to work? Mental challenges are often left for the workplace where we, the individuals, are allowed to bloosomed in our chosen field of study. In nowadays unions, both partners often end up evolving in completely different field: even two engineers may struggle to comprehend the nature of each other’s work.
In other words, Shallan does not need Adolin to challenge her intellectually: she has her scholarship for this. However, she needs him to be smart enough to understand what it is she talks about and to have a minimum of interest in her studies, which he is perfectly able to do.
As for him not learning the glyphs, I would say that yes it is accessible to him, but it is highly discouraged for men to learn anything considered scholarly. Adolin puts a strong emphasis on how others perceive him and while reading glyphs may please Navani, it sure won’t please the general crowd. It is not even intellectual laziness: men on Alethkar are not interested in academics. Also, other women Adolin has dated seemed to enjoy being taken for smart whereas the men were left to play dumb. It seems to be a society thing.
Hello Everyone,
This week I made a facebook group page for Sanderson’s fans. It’s the one Ways mentions @50.
Come check us out if you wish. I’ll post this agin with the new post tomorrow.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1393251621001084/
thepupxpert @13
Let’s try sorting this one out if you really want to make your head explode:
And I’m try to remember how to insert a JPEG here without getting a bunch of code instead. Well, anywho, it’s the endsheet “voidbringer” graphic from WoK.
Scmof2814 @25
Yep.
While Adolin is far from stupid, he has shown limited interests thus far. War, dueling, and fashion appear to occupy his working and spare times – other than incessant dating of eligible young women. The latter has stopped since Shallan’s arrival, but not the gazing. The question remains, will he get interested in some of Shallan’s artistic and scholarly/scientific pursuits? If not, then the relationship could suffer, despite Adolin’s hitherto appealing personality. I use ‘hitherto’ advisedly since the killing of Sadeas may effect his life and personality. Kaladin’s analytical mind is more of a match to Shallan, but not his personality. We’ll just have to see how BWS lets it play out.
@70 STBLST “The question remains, will he get interested in some of Shallan’s artistic and scholarly/scientific pursuits?”
We should ask the same question otherway, too: Will Shallan be interested in some of Adolin’s warfare and fashion pursuits? Just like Andolin’s fields of interested are war, dueling, and fashion, Shallan has limited herself to reading, researching and sketching. Her insterests in dueling extends to drawing the shardblades only. But, both are into protecting the land, Adolin in that straightforward way of his, whereas Shallan with her lies (re.ghostbloods).
I like how in this chapter we get so caught up with the second meeting of Shallan and Kaladin that it’s easy to forget that Shallan just brought Gaz into he whitespine’s den so to speak. I’m interested to see the interactions between Gaz and the bridgemen in upcoming books.
I want to know what Shallan did with the bag of Tyn’s and her men’s bones!
Adolin won’t be punished for killing Sadeas because it seems to be true in this society that if you kill and are not caught, you gain respect (assuming the target was acceptable). There’s no evidence of Sadeas’ killing, and I doubt his wife would make a public accusation of guilt, because that’s not how her mind works. She routinely plans assassinations of policy, so she would assume this was such and plan appropriate vengeance upon whomever she decides was responsible. Jasnah didn’t try to cover up the 4 she killed, but neither did she stick around to take any consequences. Lin Davar was despised, not because he’d killed, but because he’d killed his lighteyes wife (unacceptable target). No one seemed to be having any problem with the possibility that Lin Davar had been killed, because the family covered it up and even if discovered he would have been deemed an acceptable target – debts are another issue.
However, I think that Adolin will have a lot of guilt over having given into his anger and killed over it, that he was stupid enough to let Sadeas get to him so profoundly, and I think he’ll also be dealing with a lot of fear over being capable of killing like that (deliberately with the twist). It will be the thing that brings Shallan and Adolin together, because she will share her story of learning to deal with having killed her mother accidentally, her father – quite equally deliberately- to save her brothers, and now having killed Tyn in desperation to save her own life. There are a lot of emotions about Tyn’s killing that I think she’s just refused to feel, as usual, but I think Adolin will help her heal and she’ll help him. Shallolin FTW!
Do we know if Haleran is really dead and that Kaladin killed him? I don’t remember if we’ve decided that or if there is WOB on it.
I don’t think that Shallan will be able to easily forgive Kaladin for killing Haleran, if he did. Wanna know why?
Because I think that Haleran is our ‘bet you’ll never guess in a million years” Lightweaver that WOB says we’ve seen. Shallan has such a weird he’s “the best person she’d ever known” feeling of Rightness about him. I think he was a Lightweaver, and that Shallan was chosen so early because he was already there. He knew it, and we don’t know how much he participated in her early development, but that’s why he kept giving her the drawing gifts and told her not to draw bodies, but plants and animals. That’s why she did. Every time he sees her, it always “I’m Here, and All’s Right With the World” to help her heal and grow. He comes home not to check on Lin Davar, but *her*. So when Shallan finds out that he’s not alive anymore for sure, and that it’s Kaladin who killed him, she’s going to have a hard time getting past it, and when it does happen any romantic feelings will be long gone, although I do think she’ll be able to establish at least a working relationship with Kaladin.
Ok, I’m ducking now.
Oh, and I have a question. How could Kaladin have studied all those surgery texts but not know how to read? He hold’s Shallan’s letter of proof upside down and doesn’t notice. I do realize that Alethi women’s writing is up-and-down symetrical, but still, how could he not know how to read? Was it all in glyphs? Could glyphs be that precise as to human anatomy, etc? Inquiring minds.
@73: Brandon did state Adolin’s actions did not go against some of the morality on Roshar, which implies he may be able to get away with it… Except… Except his father is Dalinar, so we can expect that whatever happens to Adolin, it will not be positive because Dalinar will not be able to breach is moral code to favor his son.
Guilt and fear, yes, I hope to see it, if Brandon chooses to explore Adolin further as a character, then we are likely to see these things, but it could also be the “Adolin’s ordeal” will be told from the Dalinar/Renarin’s perspective. It could be Adolin would simply be a plot device to help Dalinar grow, discover a third oath and learn how to be more flexible. It could also help fuel Renarin into prompting him to step out of his brother’s shadow. Adolin is not one of the main protagonists, so we may not deal with his internal struggle, just as we are not dealing with Elhokar’s.
I am now thinking Adolin’s contribution to the story will be to be the vehicle by which the main protagonists evolve. In WoR, Adolin served to help Kaladin overcome his prejudice of lighteyes: his entire story arc resulted in him deepening into the dueling to the point where he needed to be rescued. In book 3, I expect Adolin to serve as a growth factor for both Dalinar and Renarin, but Adolin himself… is a plot device. Whatever happens to him probably won’t be relevant to the main story arc.
Mnmama @73, 74:
We know that Helaran had been the shardbearer trying to kill Amaram (and killed by Kaladin) because Shallan recognized his shardblade, now in Amaram’s possession. It also has been mentioned by Amaram’s people at the time that the mystery shardbearer was Veden. So, yea, it is fairly cut and dry.
And the fact that he was using a dead shardblade and wearing plate proves that he wasn’t an active surgebinder. So, no, IMHO he couldn’t have been a Lightweaver. I do wonder if he knew about Shallan and helped her development towards Radiancy, but OTOH it is difficult to imagine how he could have missed Lady Davar’s increasing hostility in such a case and not even suspected the truth of her death.
I am also not entirely sure how surgeons get by without proper reading. Glyphs seem to be pretty crude and general re: their meaning for the needs of medicine. Women can read, but can’t be surgeons, because they have to always wear a glove. Though, hopefully not at home, because it would make a lot of household chores awkward and/or staggeringly unhygienic. It is a conundrum and not entirely plausible, IMHO…
edit – double post
Hi – late to the party of course, but a couple of requests:
1 Can someone point me in the direction of where I can find the passages that Hoid took metals on this world to riot the Alethi, and how does that even work on this world as opposed to Mistborn? I didn’t think the magics were mutually exclusive but really not sure how that can even work on a different planet? I’m totally out of the loop on that one.
2. Alice – can you invite me to the facebook bunker group? I tried searching FB for “Stormcellar” but to no avail. Thanks!
I went to add you to the group, and it says you’re already a member! So… not sure what’s going on. FWIW, it’s two words on there: Storm Cellar.
Also, the only place I remember seeing Hoid burning metals on Roshar is in Middlefest (chapter 45), where he pours something in his own drink. Not sure he used it to riot, though.