Start reading Oathbringer, the new volume of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive epic, right now. For free!
Tor.com is serializing the much-awaited third volume in the Stormlight Archive series every Tuesday until the novel’s November 14, 2017 release date.
Every installment is collected here in the Oathbringer index.
Need a refresher on the Stormlight Archive before beginning Oathbringer? Here’s a summary of what happened in Book 1: The Way of Kings and Book 2: Words of Radiance.
Spoiler warning: Comments will contain spoilers for previous Stormlight books, other works that take place in Sanderson’s cosmere (Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, etc.), and the available chapters of Oathbringer, along with speculation regarding the chapters yet to come.
Chapter 10
Distractions
Perhaps my heresy stretches back to those days in my childhood, where these ideas began.
—From Oathbringer, preface
Kaladin leaped from a hilltop, preserving Stormlight by Lashing himself upward just enough to give him some lift.
He soared through the rain, angled toward another hilltop. Beneath him, the valley was clogged with vivim trees, which wound their spindly branches together to create an almost impenetrable wall of forestation.
He landed lightly, skidding across the wet stone past rainspren like blue candles. He dismissed his Lashing, and as the force of the ground reasserted itself, he stepped into a quick march. He’d learned to march before learning the spear or shield. Kaladin smiled. He could almost hear Hav’s voice barking commands from the back of the line, where he helped stragglers. Hav had always said that once men could march together, learning to fight was easy.
“Smiling?” Syl said. She’d taken the shape of a large raindrop streaking through the air beside him, falling the wrong way. It was a natural shape, but also completely wrong. Plausible impossibility.
“You’re right,” Kaladin said, rain dribbling down his face. “I should be more solemn. We’re chasing down Voidbringers.” Storms, how odd it sounded to say that.
“I didn’t intend it as a reprimand.”
“Hard to tell with you sometimes.”
“And what was that supposed to mean?”
“Two days ago, I found that my mother is still alive,” Kaladin said, “so the position is not, in fact, vacant. You can stop trying to fill it.”
He Lashed himself upward slightly, then let himself slide down the wet stone of the steep hill, standing sideways. He passed open rockbuds and wiggling vines, glutted and fat from the constant rainfall. Following the Weeping, they’d often find as many dead plants around the town as they did after a strong highstorm.
“Well, I’m not trying to mother you,” Syl said, still a raindrop. Talking to her could be a surreal experience. “Though perhaps I chide you on occasion, when you’re being sullen.”
He grunted.
“Or when you’re being uncommunicative.” She transformed into the shape of a young woman in a havah, seated in the air and holding an umbrella as she moved along beside him. “It is my solemn and important duty to bring happiness, light, and joy into your world when you’re being a dour idiot. Which is most of the time. So there.”
Kaladin chuckled, holding a little Stormlight as he ran up the side of the next hill, then skidded down into the next valley. This was prime farmland; there was a reason why the Akanny region was prized by Sadeas. It might be a cultural backwater, but these rolling fields probably fed half the kingdom with their lavis and tallew crops. Other villages focused on raising large passels of hogs for leather and meat. Gumfrems, a kind of chull-like beast, were less common pasture animals harvested for their gemhearts, which—though small—allowed Soulcasting of meat.
Syl turned into a ribbon of light and zipped in front of him, making loops. It was difficult not to feel uplifted, even in the gloomy weather. He’d spent the entire sprint to Alethkar worrying—and then assuming—that he’d be too late to save Hearthstone. To find his parents alive… well, it was an unexpected blessing. The type his life had been severely lacking.
So he gave in to the urging of the Stormlight. Run. Leap. Though he’d spent two days chasing the Voidbringers, Kaladin’s exhaustion had faded. There weren’t many empty beds to be found in the broken villages he passed, but he had been able to find a roof to keep him dry and something warm to eat.
He’d started at Hearthstone and worked his way outward in a spiral— visiting villages, asking after the local parshmen, then warning people that the terrible storm would return. So far, he hadn’t found a single town or village that had been attacked.
Kaladin reached the next hilltop and pulled to a stop. A weathered stone post marked a crossroads. During his youth, he’d never gotten this far from Hearthstone, though he wasn’t more than a few days’ walk away.
Syl zipped up to him as he shaded his eyes from the rain. The glyphs and simple map on the stone marker would indicate the distance to the next town—but he didn’t need that. He could make it out as a smudge in the gloom. A fairly large town, by local standards.
“Come on,” he said, starting down the hillside.
“I think,” Syl said, landing on his shoulder and becoming a young woman, “I would make a wonderful mother.”
“And what inspired this topic?”
“You’re the one who brought it up.”
In comparing Syl to his mother for nagging him? “Are you even capable of having children? Baby spren?”
“I have no idea,” Syl proclaimed.
“You call the Stormfather… well, Father. Right? So he birthed you?”
“Maybe? I think so? Helped shape me, is more like it. Helped us find our voices.” She cocked her head. “Yes. He made some of us. Made me.”
“So maybe you could do that,” Kaladin said. “Find little, uh, bits of the wind? Or of Honor? Shape them?”
He used a Lashing to leap over a snarl of rockbuds and vines, and startled a pack of cremlings as he landed, sending them scuttling away from a nearly clean mink skeleton. Probably the leavings of a larger predator.
“Hmmm,” Syl said. “I would be an excellent mother. I’d teach the little spren to fly, to coast the winds, to harass you.…”
Kaladin smiled. “You’d get distracted by an interesting beetle and fly off, leaving them in a drawer somewhere.”
“Nonsense! Why would I leave my babies in a drawer? Far too boring. A highprince’s shoe though…”
He flew the remaining distance to the village, and the sight of broken buildings at the western edge dampened his mood. Though the destruction continued to be less than he’d feared, every town or village had lost people to the winds or the terrible lightning.
This village—Hornhollow, the map called it—was in what once would have been considered an ideal location. The land here dipped into a depression, and a hill to the east cut the brunt of the highstorms. It held about two dozen structures, including two large storm sanctuaries where travelers could stay—but there were also many outer buildings. This was the highprince’s land, and an industrious darkeyes of high enough nahn could get a commission to work an unused hill out by itself, then keep a portion of the crop.
A few sphere lanterns gave light to the square, where people had gathered for a town meeting. That was convenient. Kaladin dropped toward the lights and held his hand to the side. Syl formed there by unspoken command, taking the shape of a Shardblade: a sleek, beautiful sword with the symbol of the Windrunners prominent on the center, with lines sweeping off it toward the hilt—grooves in the metal that looked like flowing tresses of hair. Though Kaladin preferred a spear, the Blade was a symbol.
Kaladin hit the ground in the center of the village, near its large central cistern, used to catch rainwater and filter away the crem. He rested the Sylblade on his shoulder and stretched out his other hand, preparing his speech. People of Hornhollow. I am Kaladin, of the Knights Radiant. I have come—
“Lord Radiant!” A portly lighteyed man stumbled out of the crowd, wearing a long raincloak and a wide-brimmed hat. He looked ridiculous, but it was the Weeping. Constant rain didn’t exactly encourage heights of fashion.
The man clapped his hands in an energetic motion, and a pair of ardents stumbled up beside him, bearing goblets full of glowing spheres. Around the perimeter of the square, people hissed and whispered, anticipationspren flapping in an unseen wind. Several men held up small children to get a better look.
“Great,” Kaladin said softly. “I’ve become a menagerie act.”
In his mind, he heard Syl giggle.
Well, best to put on a good show of it. He lifted the Sylblade high overhead, prompting a cheer from the crowd. He would have bet that most of the people in this square used to curse the name of the Radiants, but none of that was manifest now in the people’s enthusiasm. It was hard to believe that centuries of mistrust and vilification would be forgotten so quickly. But with the sky breaking and the land in turmoil, people would look to a symbol.
Kaladin lowered his Blade. He knew all too well the danger of symbols. Amaram had been one to him, long ago.
“You knew of my coming,” Kaladin said to the citylord and the ardents. “You’ve been in contact with your neighbors. Have they told you what I’ve been saying?”
“Yes, Brightlord,” the lighteyed man said, gesturing eagerly for him to take the spheres. As he did so—replacing them with spent ones he’d traded for previously—the man’s expression fell noticeably.
Expected me to pay two for one as I did at the first few towns, did you? Kaladin thought with amusement. Well, he dropped a few extra dun spheres in. He’d rather be known as generous, particularly if it helped word spread, but he couldn’t halve his spheres each time he went through them.
“This is good,” Kaladin said, fishing out a few small gemstones. “I can’t visit every holding in the area. I need you to send messages to each nearby village, carrying words of comfort and command from the king. I will pay for the time of your runners.”
He looked out at the sea of eager faces, and couldn’t help but remember a similar day in Hearthstone where he and the rest of the townspeople had waited, eager to catch a glimpse of their new citylord.
“Of course, Brightlord,” the lighteyed man said. “Would you wish to rest now, and take a meal? Or would you rather visit the location of the attack immediately?”
“Attack?” Kaladin said, feeling a spike of alarm.
“Yes, Brightlord,” the portly lighteyes said. “Isn’t that why you’re here?
To see where the rogue parshmen assaulted us?”
Finally! “Take me there. Now.”
They’d attacked a grain storage just outside town. Squashed between two hills and shaped like a dome, it had weathered the Everstorm without so much as a loosed stone. That made it a particular shame that the Voidbringers had ripped open the door and pillaged what was inside.
Kaladin knelt within, flipping over a broken hinge. The building smelled of dust and tallew, but was too wet. Townspeople who would suffer a dozen leaks in their bedroom would go to great expense to keep their grain dry.
It felt odd to not have the rain on his head, though he could still hear it pattering outside.
“May I continue, Brightlord?” the ardent asked him. She was young, pretty, and nervous. Obviously she didn’t know where he fit into the scheme of her religion. The Knights Radiant had been founded by the Heralds, but they were also traitors. So… he was either a divine being of myth or a cretin one step above a Voidbringer.
“Yes, please,” Kaladin said.
“Of the five eyewitnesses,” the ardent said, “four, um, independently counted the number of attackers at… fifty or so? Anyway, it’s safe to say that they’ve got large numbers, considering how many sacks of grain they were able to carry away in such a short time. They, um, didn’t look exactly like parshmen. Too tall, and wearing armor. The sketch I made… Um…”
She tried showing him her sketch again. It wasn’t much better than a child’s drawing: a bunch of scribbles in vaguely humanoid shapes.
“Anyway,” the young ardent continued, oblivious to the fact that Syl had landed on her shoulder and was inspecting her face. “They attacked right after first moonset. They had the grain out by middle of second moon, um, and we didn’t hear anything until the change of guard happened. Sot raised the alarm, and that chased the creatures off They only left four sacks, which we moved.”
Kaladin took a crude wooden cudgel off the table next to the ardent. The ardent glanced at him, then quickly looked back to her paper, blushing. The room, lit by oil lamps, was depressingly hollow. This grain should have gotten the village to the next harvest.
To a man from a farming village, nothing was more distressing than an empty silo at planting time.
“The men who were attacked?” Kaladin said, inspecting the cudgel, which the Voidbringers had dropped while fleeing.
“They’ve both recovered, Brightlord,” the ardent said. “Though Khem has a ringing in his ear he says won’t go away.”
Fifty parshmen in warform—which was what the descriptions sounded most like to him—could easily have overrun this town and its handful of militia guards. They could have slaughtered everyone and taken whatever they wished; instead, they’d made a surgical raid.
“The red lights,” Kaladin said. “Describe them again.”
The ardent started; she’d been looking at him. “Um, all five witnesses mentioned the lights, Brightlord. There were several small glowing red lights in the darkness.”
“Their eyes.”
“Maybe?” the ardent said. “If those were eyes, it was only a few. I went and asked, and none of the witnesses specifically saw eyes glowing—and Khem got a look right in one of the parshmen’s faces as they struck him.”
Kaladin dropped the cudgel and dusted off his palms. He took the sheet with the picture on it out of the young ardent’s hands and inspected it, just for show, then nodded to her. “You did well. Thank you for the report.”
She sighed, grinning stupidly.
“Oh!” Syl said, still on the ardent’s shoulder. “She thinks you’re pretty!”
Kaladin drew his lips to a line. He nodded to the woman and left her, striking back into the rain toward the center of town.
Syl zipped up to his shoulder. “Wow. She must be desperate living out here. I mean, look at you. Hair that hasn’t been combed since you flew across the continent, uniform stained with crem, and that beard.”
“Thank you for the boost of confidence.”
“I guess when there’s nobody about but farmers, your standards really drop.”
“She’s an ardent,” Kaladin said. “She’d have to marry another ardent.”
“I don’t think she was thinking about marriage, Kaladin…” Syl said, turning and looking backward over her shoulder. “I know you’ve been busy lately fighting guys in white clothing and stuff, but I’ve been doing research. People lock their doors, but there’s plenty of room to get in underneath. I figured, since you don’t seem inclined to do any learning yourself, I should study. So if you have questions…”
“I’m well aware of what is involved.”
“You sure?” Syl asked. “Maybe we could have that ardent draw you a picture. She seems like she’d be really eager.”
“Syl…”
“I just want you to be happy, Kaladin,” she said, zipping off his shoulder and running a few rings around him as a ribbon of light. “People in relationships are happier.”
“That,” Kaladin said, “is demonstrably false. Some might be. I know a lot who aren’t.”
“Come on,” Syl said. “What about that Lightweaver? You seemed to like her.”
The words struck uncomfortably close to the truth. “Shallan is engaged to Dalinar’s son.”
“So? You’re better than him. I don’t trust him one bit.”
“You don’t trust anyone who carries a Shardblade, Syl,” Kaladin said with a sigh. “We’ve been over this. It’s not a mark of bad character to have bonded one of the weapons.”
“Yes, well, let’s have someone swing around the corpse of your sisters by the feet, and we’ll see whether you consider it a ‘mark of bad character’ or not. This is a distraction. Like that Lightweaver could be for you…”
“Shallan’s a lighteyes,” Kaladin said. “That’s the end of the conversation.”
“But—”
“End,” he said, stepping into the home of the village lighteyes. Then he added under his breath, “And stop spying on people when they’re being intimate. It’s creepy.”
The way she spoke, she expected to be there when Kaladin… Well, he’d never considered that before, though she went with him everywhere else. Could he convince her to wait outside? She’d still listen, if not sneak in to watch. Stormfather. His life just kept getting stranger. He tried— unsuccessfully—to banish the image of lying in bed with a woman, Syl sitting on the headboard and shouting out encouragement and advice.…
“Lord Radiant?” the citylord asked from inside the front room of the small home. “Are you well?”
“Painful memory,” Kaladin said. “Your scouts are certain of the direction the parshmen went?”
The citylord looked over his shoulder at a scraggly man in leathers, bow on his back, standing by the boarded-up window. Trapper, with a writ from the local highlord to catch mink on his lands. “Followed them half a day out, Brightlord. They never deviated. Straight toward Kholinar, I’d swear to Kelek himself.”
“Then that’s where I’m going as well,” Kaladin said.
“You want me to lead you, Brightlord Radiant?” the trapper asked.
Kaladin drew in Stormlight. “Afraid you’d just slow me down.” He nodded to the men, then stepped out and Lashed himself upward. People clogged the road and cheered from rooftops as he left the town behind.
The scents of horses reminded Adolin of his youth. Sweat, and manure, and hay. Good scents. Real scents.
He’d spent many of those days, before he was fully a man, on campaign with his father during border skirmishes with Jah Keved. Adolin had been afraid of horses back then, though he’d never have admitted it. So much faster, more intelligent, than chulls.
So alien. Creatures all covered in hair—which made him shiver to touch—with big glassy eyes. And those hadn’t even been real horses. For all their pedigree breeding, the horses they’d rode on campaign had just been ordinary Shin Thoroughbreds. Expensive, yes. But by definition, therefore, not priceless.
Not like the creature before him now.
They were housing the Kholin livestock in the far northwest section of the tower, on the ground floor, near where winds from outside blew along the mountains. Some clever constructions in the hallways by the royal engineers had ventilated the scents away from the inner corridors, though that left the region quite chilly.
Gumfrems and hogs clogged some rooms, while conventional horses stabled in others. Several even contained Bashin’s axehounds, animals who never got to go on hunts anymore.
Such accommodations weren’t good enough for the Blackthorn’s horse. No, the massive black Ryshadium stallion had been given his own field. Large enough to serve as a pasture, it was open to the sky and in an enviable spot, if you discounted the scents of the other animals.
As Adolin emerged from the tower, the black monster of a horse came galloping over. Big enough to carry a Shardbearer without looking small, Ryshadium were often called the “third Shard.” Blade, Plate, and Mount.
That didn’t do them justice. You couldn’t earn a Ryshadium simply by defeating someone in combat. They chose their riders.
But, Adolin thought as Gallant nuzzled his hand, I suppose that was how it used to be with Blades too. They were spren who chose their bearers.
“Hey,” Adolin said, scratching the Ryshadium’s snout with his left hand. “A little lonely out here, isn’t it? I’m sorry about that. Wish you weren’t alone any—” He cut off as his voice caught in his throat.
Gallant stepped closer, towering over him, but somehow still gentle.
The horse nuzzled Adolin’s neck, then blew out sharply.
“Ugh,” Adolin said, turning the horse’s head. “That’s a scent I could do without.” He patted Gallant’s neck, then reached with his right hand into his shoulder pack—before a sharp pain from his wrist reminded him yet again of his wound. He reached in with the other hand and took out some sugar lumps, which Gallant consumed eagerly.
“You’re as bad as Aunt Navani,” Adolin noted. “That’s why you came running, isn’t it? You smelled treats.”
The horse turned his head, looking at Adolin with one watery blue eye, rectangular pupil at the center. He almost seemed… offended.
Adolin often had felt he could read his own Ryshadium’s emotions. There had been a… bond between him and Sureblood. More delicate and indefinable than the bond between man and sword, but still there.
Of course, Adolin was the one who talked to his sword sometimes, so he had a habit of this sort of thing.
“I’m sorry,” Adolin said. “I know the two of you liked to run together. And… I don’t know if Father will be able to get down as much to see you. He’d already been withdrawing from battle before he got all these new responsibilities. I thought I’d stop by once in a while.”
The horse snorted loudly.
“Not to ride you,” Adolin said, reading indignation in the Ryshadium’s motions. “I just thought it might be nice for both of us.”
The horse poked his snout at Adolin’s satchel until he dug out another sugar cube. It seemed like agreement to Adolin, who fed the horse, then leaned back against the wall and watched him gallop through the pasture.
Showing off Adolin thought with amusement as Gallant pranced past him. Maybe Gallant would let him brush his coat. That would feel good, like the evenings he’d spent with Sureblood in the dark calm of the stables. At least, that was what he’d done before everything had gotten busy, with Shallan and the duels and everything else.
He’d ignored the horse right up until he’d needed Sureblood in battle. And then, in a flash of light, he was gone.
Adolin took a deep breath. Everything seemed insane these days. Not just Sureblood, but what he’d done to Sadeas, and now the investigation…
Watching Gallant seemed to help a little. Adolin was still there, leaning against the wall, when Renarin arrived. The younger Kholin poked his head through the doorway, looking around. He didn’t shy away when Gallant galloped past, but he did regard the stallion with wariness.
“Hey,” Adolin said from the side.
“Hey. Bashin said you were down here.”
“Just checking on Gallant,” Adolin said. “Because Father’s been so busy lately.”
Renarin approached. “You could ask Shallan to draw Sureblood,” Renarin said. “I bet, um, she’d be able to do a good job. To remember.”
It wasn’t a bad suggestion, actually. “Were you looking for me, then?”
“I…” Renarin watched Gallant as the horse pranced by again. “He’s excited.”
“He likes an audience.”
“They don’t fit, you know.”
“Don’t fit?”
“Ryshadium have stone hooves,” Renarin said, “stronger than ordinary horses’. Never need to be shod.”
“And that makes them not fit? I’d say that makes them fit better.…” Adolin eyed Renarin. “You mean ordinary horses, don’t you?”
Renarin blushed, then nodded. People had trouble following him sometimes, but that was merely because he tended to be so thoughtful. He’d be thinking about something deep, something brilliant, and then would only mention a part. It made him seem erratic, but once you got to know him, you realized he wasn’t trying to be esoteric. His lips just sometimes failed to keep up with his brain.
“Adolin,” he said softly. “I… um… I have to give you back the Shardblade you won for me.”
“Why?” Adolin said.
“It hurts to hold,” Renarin said. “It always has, to be honest. I thought it was just me, being strange. But it’s all of us.”
“Radiants, you mean.”
He nodded. “We can’t use the dead Blades. It’s not right.”
“Well, I suppose I could find someone else to use it,” Adolin said, running through options. “Though you should really be the one to choose. By right of bestowal, the Blade is yours, and you should pick the successor.”
“I’d rather you do it. I’ve given it to the ardents already, for safekeeping.”
“Which means you’ll be unarmed,” Adolin said.
Renarin glanced away.
“Or not,” Adolin said, then poked Renarin in the shoulder. “You’ve got a replacement already, don’t you.”
Renarin blushed again.
“You mink!” Adolin said. “You’ve managed to create a Radiant Blade? Why didn’t you tell us?”
“It just happened. Glys wasn’t certain he could do it… but we need more people to work the Oathgate… so…”
He took a deep breath, then stretched his hand to the side and summoned a long glowing Shardblade. Thin, with almost no crossguard, it had waving folds to the metal, like it had been forged.
“Gorgeous,” Adolin said. “Renarin, it’s fantastic!”
“Thanks.”
“So why are you embarrassed?”
“I’m… not?”
Adolin gave him a flat stare.
Renarin dismissed the Blade. “I simply… Adolin, I was starting to fit in. With Bridge Four, with being a Shardbearer. Now, I’m in the darkness again. Father expects me to be a Radiant, so I can help him unite the world. But how am I supposed to learn?”
Adolin scratched his chin with his good hand. “Huh. I assumed that it just kind of came to you. It hasn’t?”
“Some has. But it… frightens me, Adolin.” He held up his hand, and it started to glow, wisps of Stormlight trailing off it, like smoke from a fire. “What if I hurt someone, or ruin things?”
“You’re not going to,” Adolin said. “Renarin, that’s the power of the Almighty himself.”
Renarin only stared at that glowing hand, and didn’t seem convinced. So Adolin reached out with his good hand and took Renarin’s, holding it.
“This is good,” Adolin said to him. “You’re not going to hurt anyone. You’re here to save us.”
Renarin looked to him, then smiled. A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.
It was gone in a moment, and Renarin pulled his hand free and murmured an apology. He mentioned again the Shardblade needing to be given away, then fled back into the tower.
Adolin stared after him. Gallant trotted up and nudged him for more sugar, so he reached absently into his satchel and fed the horse.
Only after Gallant trotted off did Adolin realize he’d used his right hand.
He held it up, amazed, moving his fingers. His wrist had been completely healed.
Chapter 11
The Rift
THIRTY-THREE YEARS AGO
Dalinar danced from one foot to the other in the morning mist, feeling a new power, an energy in every step. Shardplate. His own Shardplate.
The world would never be the same place. They’d all expected he would someday have his own Plate or Blade, but he’d never been able to quiet the whisper of uncertainty from the back of his mind. What if it never happened?
But it had. Stormfather, it had. He’d won it himself, in combat. Yes, that combat had involved kicking a man off a cliff, but he’d defeated a Shardbearer regardless.
He couldn’t help but bask in how grand it felt.
“Calm, Dalinar,” Sadeas said from beside him in the mist. Sadeas wore his own golden Plate. “Patience.”
“It won’t do any good, Sadeas,” Gavilar—clad in bright blue Plate— said from Dalinar’s other side. All three of them wore their faceplates up for the moment. “The Kholin boys are chained axehounds, and we smell blood. We can’t go into battle breathing calming breaths, centered and serene, as the ardents teach.”
Dalinar shifted, feeling the cold morning fog on his face. He wanted to dance with the anticipationspren whipping in the air around him. Behind, the army waited in disciplined ranks, their footsteps, clinkings, coughs, and murmured banter rising through the fog.
He almost felt as if he didn’t need that army. He wore a massive hammer on his back, so heavy an unaided man—even the strongest of them— wouldn’t be able to lift it. He barely noticed the weight. Storms, this power. It felt remarkably like the Thrill.
“Have you given thought to my suggestion, Dalinar?” Sadeas asked.
“No.”
Sadeas sighed.
“If Gavilar commands me,” Dalinar said, “I’ll marry.”
“Don’t bring me into this,” Gavilar said. He summoned and dismissed his Shardblade repeatedly as they talked.
“Well,” Dalinar said, “until you say something, I’m staying single.” The only woman he’d ever wanted belonged to Gavilar. They’d married—storms, they had a child now. A little girl.
His brother must never know how Dalinar felt.
“But think of the benefit, Dalinar,” Sadeas said. “Your wedding could bring us alliances, Shards. Perhaps you could win us a princedom—one we wouldn’t have to storming drive to the brink of collapse before they join us!”
After two years of fighting, only four of the ten princedoms had accepted Gavilar’s rule—and two of those, Kholin and Sadeas, had been easy. The result was a united Alethkar: against House Kholin.
Gavilar was convinced that he could play them off one another, that their natural selfishness would lead them to stab one another in the back. Sadeas, in turn, pushed Gavilar toward greater brutality. He claimed that the fiercer their reputation, the more cities would turn to them willingly rather than risk being pillaged.
“Well?” Sadeas asked. “Will you at least consider a union of political necessity?”
“Storms, you still on that?” Dalinar said. “Let me fight. You and my brother can worry about politics.”
“You can’t escape this forever, Dalinar. You realize that, right? We’ll have to worry about feeding the darkeyes, about city infrastructure, about ties with other kingdoms. Politics.”
“You and Gavilar,” Dalinar said.
“All of us,” Sadeas said. “All three.”
“Weren’t you trying to get me to relax?” Dalinar snapped. Storms.
The rising sun finally started to disperse the fog, and that let him see their target: a wall about twelve feet high. Beyond that, nothing. A flat rocky expanse, or so it appeared. The chasm city was difficult to spot from this direction. Named Rathalas, it was also known as the Rift: an entire city that had been built inside a rip in the ground.
“Brightlord Tanalan is a Shardbearer, right?” Dalinar asked.
Sadeas sighed, lowering his faceplate. “We only went over this four times, Dalinar.”
“I was drunk. Tanalan. Shardbearer?”
“Blade only, Brother,” Gavilar said.
“He’s mine,” Dalinar whispered.
Gavilar laughed. “Only if you find him first! I’ve half a mind to give that Blade to Sadeas. At least he listens in our meetings.”
“All right,” Sadeas said. “Let’s do this carefully. Remember the plan. Gavilar, you—”
Gavilar gave Dalinar a grin, slammed his faceplate down, then took off running to leave Sadeas midsentence. Dalinar whooped and joined him, Plated boots grinding against stone.
Sadeas cursed loudly, then followed. The army remained behind for the moment.
Rocks started falling; catapults from behind the wall hurled solitary boulders or sprays of smaller rocks. Chunks slammed down around Dalinar, shaking the ground, causing rockbud vines to curl up. A boulder struck just ahead, then bounced, spraying chips of stone. Dalinar skidded past it, the Plate lending a spring to his motion. He raised his arm before his eye slit as a hail of arrows darkened the sky.
“Watch the ballistas!” Gavilar shouted.
Atop the wall, soldiers aimed massive crossbowlike devices mounted to the stone. One sleek bolt—the size of a spear—launched directly at Dalinar, and it proved far more accurate than the catapults. He threw himself to the side, Plate grinding on stone as he slid out of the way. The bolt hit the ground with such force that the wood shattered.
Other shafts trailed netting and ropes, hoping to trip a Shardbearer and render him prone for a second shot. Dalinar grinned, feeling the Thrill awaken within him, and recovered his feet. He leaped over a bolt trailing netting.
Tanalan’s men delivered a storm of wood and stone, but it wasn’t nearly enough. Dalinar took a stone in the shoulder and lurched, but quickly regained his momentum. Arrows were useless against him, the boulders too random, and the ballistas too slow to reload.
This was how it should be. Dalinar, Gavilar, Sadeas. Together. Other responsibilities didn’t matter. Life was about the fight. A good battle in the day—then at night, a warm hearth, tired muscles, and a good vintage of wine.
Dalinar reached the squat wall and leaped, propelling himself in a mighty jump. He gained just enough height to grab one of the crenels of the wall’s top. Men raised hammers to pound his fingers, but he hurled himself over the lip and onto the wall walk, crashing down amid panicked defenders. He jerked the release rope on his hammer—dropping it on an enemy behind—then swung out with his fist, sending men broken and screaming.
This was almost too easy! He seized his hammer, then brought it up and swung it in a wide arc, tossing men from the wall like leaves before a gust of wind. Just beyond him, Sadeas kicked over a ballista, destroying the device with a casual blow. Gavilar attacked with his Blade, dropping corpses by the handful, their eyes burning. Up here, the fortification worked against the defenders, leaving them cramped and clumped up—perfect for Shardbearers to destroy.
Dalinar surged through them, and in a few moments likely killed more men than he had in his entire life. At that, he felt a surprising yet profound dissatisfaction. This was not about his skill, his momentum, or even his reputation. You could have replaced him with a toothless gaffer and produced practically the same result.
He gritted his teeth against that sudden useless emotion. He dug deeply within, and found the Thrill waiting. It filled him, driving away dissatisfaction. Within moments he was roaring his pleasure. Nothing these men did could touch him. He was a destroyer, a conqueror, a glorious maelstrom of death. A god.
Sadeas was saying something. The silly man gestured in his golden Shardplate. Dalinar blinked, looking out over the wall. He could see the Rift proper from this vantage, a deep chasm in the ground that hid an entire city, built up the sides of either cliff
“Catapults, Dalinar!” Sadeas said. “Bring down those catapults!”
Right. Gavilar’s armies had started to charge the walls. Those catapults—near the way down into the Rift proper—were still launching stones, and would drop hundreds of men.
Dalinar leaped for the edge of the wall and grabbed a rope ladder to swing down. The ropes, of course, immediately snapped, sending him toppling to the ground. He struck with a crash of Plate on stone. It didn’t hurt, but his pride took a serious blow. Above, Sadeas looked at him over the edge. Dalinar could practically hear his voice.
Always rushing into things. Take some time to think once in a while, won’t you?
That had been a flat-out greenvine mistake. Dalinar growled and climbed to his feet, searching for his hammer. Storms! He’d bent the handle in his fall. How had he done that? It wasn’t made of the same strange metal as Blades and Plate, but it was still good steel.
Soldiers guarding the catapults swarmed toward him while the shadows of boulders passed overhead. Dalinar set his jaw, the Thrill saturating him, and reached for a stout wooden door set into the wall nearby. He ripped it free, the hinges popping, and stumbled. It came off more easily than he’d expected.
There was more to this armor than he’d ever imagined. Maybe he wasn’t any better with the Plate than some old gaffer, but he would change that. At that moment, he determined that he’d never be surprised again. He’d wear this Plate morning and night—he’d sleep in the storming stuff—until he was more comfortable in it than out.
He raised the wooden door and swung it like a bludgeon, sweeping soldiers away and opening a path to the catapults. Then he dashed forward and grabbed the side of one catapult. He ripped its wheel off, splintering wood and sending the machine teetering. He stepped onto it, grabbing the catapult’s arm and breaking it free.
Only ten more to go. He stood atop the wrecked machine when he heard a distant voice call his name. “Dalinar!”
He looked toward the wall, where Sadeas reached back and heaved his Shardbearer’s hammer. It spun in the air before slamming into the catapult next to Dalinar, wedging itself into the broken wood.
Sadeas raised a hand in salute, and Dalinar waved back in gratitude, then grabbed the hammer. The destruction went a lot faster after that. He pounded the machines, leaving behind shattered wood. Engineers—many of them women—scrambled away, screaming, “Blackthorn, Blackthorn!”
By the time he neared the last catapult, Gavilar had secured the gates and opened them to his soldiers. A flood of men entered, joining those who had scaled the walls. The last of the enemies near Dalinar fled down into the city, leaving him alone. He grunted and kicked the final broken catapult, sending it rolling backward across the stone toward the edge of the Rift.
It tipped, then fell over. Dalinar stepped forward, walking onto a kind of observation post, a section of rock with a railing to prevent people from slipping over the side. From this vantage, he got his first good look down at the city.
“The Rift” was a fitting name. To his right, the chasm narrowed, but here at the middle he’d have been hard-pressed to throw a stone across to the other side, even with Shardplate. And within it, there was life. Gardens bobbing with lifespren. Buildings built practically on top of one another down the V-shaped cliff sides. The place teemed with a network of stilts, bridges, and wooden walkways.
Dalinar turned and looked back at the wall that ran in a wide circle around the opening of the Rift on all sides except the west, where the canyon continued until it opened up below at the shores of the lake.
To survive in Alethkar, you had to find shelter from the storms. A wide cleft like this one was perfect for a city. But how did you protect it? Any attacking enemy would have the high ground. Many cities walked a risky line between security from storms and security from men.
Dalinar shouldered Sadeas’s hammer as groups of Tanalan’s soldiers flooded down from the walls, forming up to flank Gavilar’s army on both right and left. They’d try to press against the Kholin troops from both sides, but with three Shardbearers to face, they were in trouble. Where was Highlord Tanalan himself ?
Behind, Thakka approached with a small squad of elites, joining Dalinar on the stone viewing platform. Thakka put his hands on the railing, whistling softly.
“Something’s going on with this city,” Dalinar said.
“What?”
“I don’t know.…” Dalinar might not pay attention to the grand plans Gavilar and Sadeas made, but he was a soldier. He knew battlefields like a woman knew her mother’s recipes: he might not be able to give you measurements, but he could taste when something was off.
The fighting continued behind him, Kholin soldiers clashing with Tanalan’s defenders. Tanalan’s armies didn’t fare well; demoralized by the advancing Kholin army, the enemy ranks quickly broke and scrambled into a retreat, clogging the ramps down into the city. Gavilar and Sadeas didn’t give chase; they had the high ground now. No need to rush into a potential ambush.
Gavilar clomped across the stone, Sadeas beside him. They’d want to survey the city and rain arrows upon those below—maybe even use stolen catapults, if Dalinar had left any functional. They’d siege this place until it broke.
Three Shardbearers, Dalinar thought. Tanalan has to be planning to deal with us somehow.…
This viewing platform was the best vantage for looking into the city. And they’d situated the catapults right next to it—machines that the Shardbearers were certain to attack and disable. Dalinar glanced to the sides, and saw cracks in the stone floor of the viewing platform.
“No!” Dalinar shouted to Gavilar. “Stay back! It’s a—”
The enemy must have been watching, for the moment he shouted, the ground fell out from beneath him. Dalinar caught a glimpse of Gavilar— held back by Sadeas—looking on in horror as Dalinar, Thakka, and a handful of other elites were toppled into the Rift.
Storms. The entire section of stone where they’d been standing—the lip hanging out over the Rift—had broken free! As the large section of rock tumbled down into the first buildings, Dalinar was flung into the air above the city. Everything spun around him.
A moment later, he crashed into a building with an awful crunch. Something hard hit his arm, an impact so powerful he heard his armor there shatter.
The building failed to stop him. He tore right through the wood and continued, helm grinding against stone as he somehow came in contact with the side of the Rift.
He hit another surface with a loud crunch, and blessedly here he finally stopped. He groaned, feeling a sharp pain from his left hand. He shook his head, and found himself staring upward some fifty feet through a shattered section of the near-vertical wooden city. The large section of falling rock had torn a swath through the city along the steep incline, smashing homes and walkways. Dalinar had been flung just to the north, and had eventually come to rest on the wooden roof of a building.
He didn’t see signs of his men. Thakka, the other elites. But without Shardplate… He growled, angerspren boiling around him like pools of blood. He shifted on the rooftop, but the pain in his hand made him wince. His armor all down his left arm had shattered, and in falling he appeared to have broken a few fingers.
His Shardplate leaked glowing white smoke from a hundred fractures, but the only pieces he’d lost completely were from his left arm and hand.
He gingerly pried himself from the rooftop, but as he shifted, he broke through and fell into the home. He grunted as he hit, members of a family screaming and pulling back against the wall. Tanalan apparently hadn’t told the people of his plan to crush a section of his own city in a desperate attempt to deal with the enemy Shardbearers.
Dalinar got to his feet, ignoring the cowering people, and shoved open the door—breaking it with the strength of his push—and stepped out onto a wooden walkway that ran before the homes on this tier of the city.
A hail of arrows immediately fell on him. He turned his right shoulder toward them, growling, shielding his eye slit as best he could while he inspected the source of the attack. Fifty archers were set up on a garden platform on the other storming side of the Rift from him. Wonderful.
He recognized the man leading the archers. Tall, with an imperious bearing and stark white plumes on his helm. Who put chicken feathers on their helms? Looked ridiculous. Well, Tanalan was a fine enough fellow. Dalinar had beat him once at pawns, and Tanalan had paid the bet with a hundred glowing bits of ruby, each dropped into a corked bottle of wine. Dalinar had always found that amusing.
Reveling in the Thrill, which rose in him and drove away pain, Dalinar charged along the walkway, ignoring arrows. Above, Sadeas was leading a force down one of the ramps outside the path of the rockfall, but it would be slow going. By the time they arrived, Dalinar intended to have a new Shardblade.
He charged onto one of the bridges that crossed the Rift. Unfortunately, he knew exactly what he would do if preparing this city for an assault. Sure enough, a pair of soldiers hurried down the other side of the Rift, then used axes to attack the support posts to Dalinar’s bridge. It had Soulcast metal ropes holding it up, but if they could get those posts down—dropping the lines—his weight would surely cause the entire thing to fall.
The bottom wash of the Rift was easily another hundred feet below. Growling, Dalinar made the only choice he could. He threw himself over the side of his walkway, dropping a short distance to one below. It looked sturdy enough. Even so, one foot smashed through the wooden planks, nearly followed by his entire body.
He heaved himself up and continued running across. Two more soldiers reached the posts holding up this bridge, and they began frantically hacking away.
The walkway shook beneath Dalinar’s feet. Stormfather. He didn’t have much time, but there were no more walkways within jumping distance. Dalinar pushed himself to a run, roaring, his footfalls cracking boards.
A single black arrow fell from above, swooping like a skyeel. It dropped one of the soldiers. Another arrow followed, hitting the second soldier even as he gawked at his fallen ally. The walkway stopped shaking, and Dalinar grinned, pulling to a stop. He turned, spotting a man standing near the sheared-off section of stone above. He lifted a black bow toward Dalinar.
“Teleb, you storming miracle,” Dalinar said.
He reached the other side and plucked an axe from the hands of a dead man. Then he charged up a ramp toward where he’d seen Highlord Tanalan.
He found the place easily, a wide wooden platform built on struts connected to parts of the wall below, and draped with vines and blooming rockbuds. Lifespren scattered as Dalinar reached it.
Centered in the garden, Tanalan waited with a force of some fifty soldiers. Puffing inside his helm, Dalinar stepped up to confront them. Tanalan was armored in simple steel, no Shardplate, though a brutal-looking Shardblade—wide, with a hooked tip—appeared in his grasp.
Tanalan barked for his soldiers to stand back and lower their bows. Then he strode toward Dalinar, holding the Shardblade with both hands.
Everyone always fixated upon Shardblades. Specific weapons had lore dedicated to them, and people traced which kings or brightlords had carried which sword. Well, Dalinar had used both Blade and Plate, and if given the choice of one, he’d pick Plate every time. All he needed to do was get in one solid hit on Tanalan, and the fight would be over. The highlord, however, had to contend with a foe who could resist his blows.
The Thrill thrummed inside Dalinar. Standing between two squat trees, he set his stance, keeping his exposed left arm pointed away from the highlord while gripping the axe in his gauntleted right hand. Though it was a war axe, it felt like a child’s plaything.
“You should not have come here, Dalinar,” Tanalan said. His voice bore a distinctively nasal accent common to this region. The Rifters always had considered themselves a people apart. “We had no quarrel with you or yours.”
“You refused to submit to the king,” Dalinar said, armor plates clinking as he rounded the highlord while trying to keep an eye on the soldiers. He wouldn’t put it past them to attack him once he was distracted by the duel. It was what he himself would have done.
“The king?” Tanalan demanded, angerspren boiling up around him. “There hasn’t been a throne in Alethkar for generations. Even if we were to have a king again, who is to say the Kholins deserve the mantle?”
“The way I see it,” Dalinar said, “the people of Alethkar deserve a king who is the strongest and most capable of leading them in battle. If only there were a way to prove that.” He grinned inside his helm.
Tanalan attacked, sweeping in with his Shardblade and trying to leverage his superior reach. Dalinar danced back, waiting for his moment. The Thrill was a heady rush, a lust to prove himself.
But he needed to be cautious. Ideally Dalinar would prolong this fight, relying on his Plate’s superior strength and the stamina it provided. Unfortunately, that Plate was still leaking, and he had all these guards to deal with. Still, he tried to play it as Tanalan would expect, dodging attacks, acting as if he were going to drag out the fight.
Tanalan growled and came in again. Dalinar blocked the blow with his arm, then made a perfunctory swing with his axe. Tanalan dodged back easily. Stormfather, that Blade was long. Almost as tall as Dalinar was.
Dalinar maneuvered, brushing against the foliage of the garden. He couldn’t even feel the pain of his broken fingers anymore. The Thrill called to him.
Wait. Act like you’re drawing this out as long as possible.…
Tanalan advanced again, and Dalinar dodged backward, faster because of his Plate. And then when Tanalan tried his next strike, Dalinar ducked toward him.
He deflected the Shardblade with his arm again, but this blow hit hard, shattering the arm plate. Still, Dalinar’s surprise rush let him lower his shoulder and slam it against Tanalan. The highlord’s armor clanged, bending before the force of the Shardplate, and the highlord tripped.
Unfortunately, Dalinar was off balance just enough from his rush to fall alongside the highlord. The platform shook as they hit the ground, the wood cracking and groaning. Damnation! Dalinar had not wanted to go to the ground while surrounded by foes. Still, he had to stay inside the reach of that Blade.
Dalinar dropped off his right gauntlet—without the arm piece connecting it to the rest of the armor, it was dead weight—as the two of them twisted in a heap. He’d lost the axe, unfortunately. The highlord battered against Dalinar with the pommel of his sword, to no effect. But with one hand broken and the other lacking the power of Plate, Dalinar couldn’t get a good hold on his foe.
Dalinar rolled, finally positioning himself above Tanalan, where the weight of the Shardplate would keep his foe pinned. At that moment though, the other soldiers attacked. Just as he’d expected. Honorable duels like this—on a battlefield at least—always lasted only until your lighteyes was losing.
Dalinar rolled free. The soldiers obviously weren’t ready for how quickly he responded. He got to his feet and scooped up his axe, then lashed out. His right arm still had the pauldron and down to the elbow brace, so when he swung, he had power—a strange mix of Shard-enhanced strength and frailty from his exposed arms. He had to be careful not to snap his own wrist.
He dropped three men with a flurry of axe slices. The others backed away, blocking him with polearms as their fellows helped Tanalan to his feet.
“You speak of the people,” Tanalan said hoarsely, gauntleted hand feeling at his chest where the cuirass had been bent significantly by Dalinar’s rush. He seemed to be having trouble breathing. “As if this were about them. As if it were for their good that you loot, you pillage, you murder. You’re an uncivilized brute.”
“You can’t civilize war,” Dalinar said. “There’s no painting it up and making it pretty.”
“You don’t have to pull sorrow behind you like a sledge on the stones, scraping and crushing those you pass. You’re a monster.”
“I’m a soldier,” Dalinar said, eyeing Tanalan’s men, many of whom were preparing their bows.
Tanalan coughed. “My city is lost. My plan has failed. But I can do Alethkar one last service. I can take you down, you bastard.”
The archers started to loose.
Dalinar roared and threw himself to the ground, hitting the platform with the weight of Shardplate. The wood cracked around him, weakened by the fighting earlier, and he broke through it, shattering struts underneath.
The entire platform came crashing down around him, and together they fell toward the tier below. Dalinar heard screams, and he hit the next walkway hard enough to daze him, even with Shardplate.
Dalinar shook his head, groaning, and found his helm cracked right down the front, the uncommon vision granted by the armor spoiled. He pulled the helm free with one hand and gasped for breath. Storms, his good arm hurt too. He glanced at it and found splinters piercing his skin, including one chunk as long as a dagger.
He grimaced. Below, the few remaining soldiers who had been positioned to cut down bridges came charging up toward him.
Steady, Dalinar. Be ready!
He got to his feet, dazed, exhausted, but the two soldiers didn’t come for him. They huddled around Tanalan’s body where it had fallen from the platform above. The soldiers grabbed him, then fled.
Dalinar roared and awkwardly gave pursuit. His Plate moved slowly, and he stumbled through the wreckage of the fallen platform, trying to keep up with the soldiers.
The pain from his arms made him mad with rage. But the Thrill, the Thrill drove him forward. He would not be beaten. He would not stop! Tanalan’s Shardblade had not appeared beside his body. That meant his foe still lived. Dalinar had not yet won.
Fortunately, most of the soldiers had been positioned to fight on the other side of the city. This side was practically empty, save for huddled townspeople—he caught glimpses of them hiding in their homes.
Dalinar limped up ramps along the side of the Rift, following the men dragging their brightlord. Near the top, the two soldiers set their burden down beside an exposed portion of the chasm’s rock wall. They did something that caused a portion of that wall to open inward, revealing a hidden door. They towed their fallen brightlord into it, and two other soldiers—responding to their frantic calls—rushed out to meet Dalinar, who arrived moments later.
Helmless, Dalinar saw red as he engaged them. They bore weapons; he did not. They were fresh, and he had wounds nearly incapacitating both arms.
The fight still ended with the two soldiers on the ground, broken and bleeding. Dalinar kicked open the hidden door, Plated legs functioning enough to smash it down.
He lurched into a small tunnel with diamond spheres glowing on the walls. That door was covered in hardened crem on the outside, making it seem like a part of the wall. If he hadn’t seen them enter, it would have taken days, maybe weeks to locate this place.
At the end of a short walk, he found the two soldiers he’d followed. Judging by the blood trail, they’d deposited their brightlord in the closed room behind them.
They rushed Dalinar with the fatalistic determination of men who knew they were probably dead. The pain in Dalinar’s arms and head seemed nothing before the Thrill. He had rarely felt it so strong as he did now, a beautiful clarity, such a wonderful emotion.
He ducked forward, supernaturally quick, and used his shoulder to crush one soldier against the wall. The other fell to a well-placed kick, then Dalinar burst through the door beyond them.
Tanalan lay on the ground here, blood surrounding him. A beautiful woman was draped across him, weeping. Only one other person was in the small chamber: a young boy. Six, perhaps seven. Tears streaked the child’s face, and he struggled to lift his father’s Shardblade in two hands.
Dalinar loomed in the doorway.
“You can’t have my daddy,” the boy said, words distorted by his sorrow. Painspren crawled around the floor. “You can’t. You… you…” His voice fell to a whisper. “Daddy said… we fight monsters. And with faith, we will win.…”
A few hours later, Dalinar sat on the edge of the Rift, his legs swinging over the broken city below. His new Shardblade rested across his lap, his Plate—deformed and broken—in a heap beside him. His arms were bandaged, but he’d chased away the surgeons.
He stared out at what seemed an empty plain, then flicked his eyes toward the signs of human life below. Dead bodies in heaps. Broken buildings. Splinters of civilization.
Gavilar eventually walked up, trailed by two bodyguards from Dalinar’s elites, Kadash and Febin today. Gavilar waved them back, then groaned as he settled down beside Dalinar, removing his helm. Exhaustionspren spun overhead, though—despite his fatigue—Gavilar looked thoughtful. With those keen, pale green eyes, he’d always seemed to know so much. Growing up, Dalinar had simply assumed that his brother would always be right in whatever he said or did. Aging hadn’t much changed his opinion of the man.
“Congratulations,” Gavilar said, nodding toward the Blade. “Sadeas is irate it wasn’t his.”
“He’ll find one of his own eventually,” Dalinar said. “He’s too ambitious for me to believe otherwise.”
Gavilar grunted. “This attack nearly cost us too much. Sadeas is saying we need to be more careful, not risk ourselves and our Shards in solitary assaults.”
“Sadeas is smart,” Dalinar said. He reached gingerly with his right hand, the less mangled one, and raised a mug of wine to his lips. It was the only drug he cared about for the pain—and maybe it would help with the shame too. Both feelings seemed stark, now that the Thrill had receded and left him deflated.
“What do we do with them, Dalinar?” Gavilar asked, waving down toward the crowds of civilians the soldiers were rounding up. “Tens of thousands of people. They won’t be cowed easily; they won’t like that you killed their highlord and his heir. Those people will resist us for years. I can feel it.”
Dalinar took a drink. “Make soldiers of them,” he said. “Tell them we’ll spare their families if they fight for us. You want to stop doing a Shardbearer rush at the start of battles? Sounds like we’ll need some expendable troops.”
Gavilar nodded, considering. “Sadeas is right about other things too, you know. About us. And what we’re going to have to become.”
“Don’t talk to me about that.”
“Dalinar…”
“I lost half my elites today, my captain included. I’ve got enough problems.”
“Why are we here, fighting? Is it for honor? Is it for Alethkar?”
Dalinar shrugged.
“We can’t just keep acting like a bunch of thugs,” Gavilar said. “We can’t rob every city we pass, feast every night. We need discipline; we need to hold the land we have. We need bureaucracy, order, laws, politics.”
Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?
“We’re going to have to grow up,” Gavilar said softly.
“And become soft? Like these highlords we kill? That’s why we started, isn’t it? Because they were all lazy, fat, corrupt?”
“I don’t know anymore. I’m a father now, Dalinar. That makes me wonder about what we do once we have it all. How do we make a kingdom of this place?”
Storms. A kingdom. For the first time in his life, Dalinar found that idea horrifying.
Gavilar eventually stood up, responding to some messengers who were calling for him. “Could you,” he said to Dalinar, “at least try to be a little less foolhardy in future battles?”
“This coming from you?”
“A thoughtful me,” Gavilar said. “An… exhausted me. Enjoy Oathbringer. You earned it.”
“Oathbringer?”
“Your sword,” Gavilar said. “Storms, didn’t you listen to anything last night? That’s Sunmaker’s old sword.”
Sadees, the Sunmaker. He had been the last man to unite Alethkar, centuries ago. Dalinar shifted the Blade in his lap, letting the light play off the pristine metal.
“It’s yours now,” Gavilar said. “By the time we’re done, I’ll have it so that nobody even thinks of Sunmaker anymore. Just House Kholin and Alethkar.”
He walked away. Dalinar rammed the Shardblade into the stone and leaned back, closing his eyes again and remembering the sound of a brave boy crying.
Chapter 12
Negotiations
I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand.
—From Oathbringer, preface
Dalinar stood beside the glass windows in an upper-floor room of Urithiru, hands clasped behind his back. He could see his reflection hinted in the window, and beyond it vast openness. The sky cloud-free, the sun burning white.
Windows as tall as he was—he’d never seen anything like them. Who would dare build something of glass, so brittle, and face it toward the storms? But of course, this city was above the storms. These windows seemed a mark of defiance, a symbol of what the Radiants had meant. They had stood above the pettiness of world politics. And because of that height, they could see so far.…
You idealize them, said a distant voice in his head, like rumbling thunder. They were men like you. No better. No worse.
“I find that encouraging,” Dalinar whispered back. “If they were like us, then it means we can be like them.”
They eventually betrayed us. Do not forget that.
“Why?” Dalinar asked. “What happened? What changed them?”
The Stormfather fell silent.
“Please,” Dalinar said. “Tell me.”
Some things are better left forgotten, the voice said to him. You of all men should understand this, considering the hole in your mind and the person who once filled it.
Dalinar drew in a sharp breath, stung by the words.
“Brightlord,” Brightness Kalami said from behind. “The emperor is ready for you.”
Dalinar turned. Urithiru’s upper levels held several unique rooms, including this amphitheater. Shaped like a half-moon, the room had windows at the top—the straight side—then rows of seats leading down to a speaking floor below. Curiously, each seat had a small pedestal beside it. For the Radiant’s spren, the Stormfather told him.
Dalinar started down the steps toward his team: Aladar and his daughter, May. Navani, wearing a bright green havah, sitting in the front row with feet stretched out before her, shoes off and ankles crossed. Elderly Kalami to write, and Teshav Khal—one of Alethkar’s finest political minds—to advise. Her two senior wards sat beside her, ready to provide research or translation if needed.
A small group, prepared to change the world.
“Send my greetings to the emperor,” Dalinar instructed.
Kalami nodded, writing. Then she cleared her throat, reading the response that the spanreed—writing as if on its own—relayed. “You are greeted by His Imperial Majesty Ch.V.D. Yanagawn the First, Emperor of Makabak, King of Azir, Lord of the Bronze Palace, Prime Aqasix, grand minister and emissary of Yaezir.”
“An imposing title,” Navani noted, “for a fifteen-year-old boy.”
“He supposedly raised a child from the dead,” Teshav said, “a miracle that gained him the support of the viziers. Local word is that they had trouble finding a new Prime after the last two were murdered by our old friend the Assassin in White. So the viziers picked a boy with questionable lineage and made up a story about him saving someone’s life in order to demonstrate a divine mandate.”
Dalinar grunted. “Making things up doesn’t sound very Azish.”
“They’re fine with it,” Navani said, “as long as you can find witnesses willing to fill out affidavits. Kalami, thank His Imperial Majesty for meeting with us, and his translators for their efforts.”
Kalami wrote, and then she looked up at Dalinar, who began to pace the center of the room. Navani stood to join him, eschewing her shoes, walking in socks.
“Your Imperial Majesty,” Dalinar said, “I speak to you from the top of Urithiru, city of legend. The sights are breathtaking. I invite you to visit me here and tour the city. You are welcome to bring any guards or retinue you see fit.”
He looked to Navani, and she nodded. They’d discussed long how to approach the monarchs, and had settled on a soft invitation. Azir was first, the most powerful country in the west and home to what would be the most central and important of the Oathgates to secure.
The response took time. The Azish government was a kind of beautiful mess, though Gavilar had often admired it. Layers of clerics filled all levels— where both men and women wrote. Scions were kind of like ardents, though they weren’t slaves, which Dalinar found odd. In Azir, being a priestminister in the government was the highest honor to which one could aspire.
Traditionally, the Azish Prime claimed to be emperor of all Makabak—a region that included over a half-dozen kingdoms and princedoms. In reality, he was king over only Azir, but Azir did cast a long, long shadow.
As they waited, Dalinar stepped up beside Navani, resting his fingers on one of her shoulders, then drew them across her back, the nape of her neck, and let them linger on the other shoulder.
Who would have thought a man his age could feel so giddy?
“ ‘Your Highness,’ ” the reply finally came, Kalami reading the words. “ ‘We thank you for your warning about the storm that blew from the wrong direction. Your timely words have been noted and recorded in the official annals of the empire, recognizing you as a friend to Azir.’ ”
Kalami waited for more, but the spanreed stopped moving. Then the ruby flashed, indicating that they were done.
“That wasn’t much of a response,” Aladar said. “Why didn’t he reply to your invitation, Dalinar?”
“Being noted in their offi ial records is a great honor to the Azish,” Teshav said, “so they’ve paid you a compliment.”
“Yes,” Navani said, “but they are trying to dodge the offer we made. Press them, Dalinar.”
“Kalami, please send the following,” Dalinar said. “I am honored, though I wish my inclusion in your annals could have been due to happier circumstances. Let us discuss the future of Roshar together, here. I am eager to make your personal acquaintance.”
They waited as patiently as they could for a response. It finally came, in Alethi. “ ‘We of the Azish crown are saddened to share mourning for the fallen with you. As your noble brother was killed by the Shin destroyer, so were beloved members of our court. This creates a bond between us.’ ”
That was all.
Navani clicked her tongue. “They’re not going to be pushed into an answer.”
“They could at least explain themselves!” Dalinar snapped. “It feels like we’re having two different conversations!”
“The Azish,” Teshav said, “do not like to give offense. They’re almost as bad as the Emuli in that regard, particularly with foreigners.”
It wasn’t only an Azish attribute, in Dalinar’s estimation. It was the way of politicians worldwide. Already this conversation was starting to feel like his efforts to bring the highprinces to his side, back in the warcamps. Half answer after half answer, mild promises with no bite to them, laughing eyes that mocked him even while they pretended to be perfectly sincere.
Storms. Here he was again. Trying to unite people who didn’t want to listen to him. He couldn’t afford to be bad at this, not any longer.
There was a time, he thought, when I united in a different way. He smelled smoke, heard men screaming in pain. Remembered bringing blood and ash to those who defied his brother.
Those memories had become particularly vivid lately.
“Another tactic maybe?” Navani suggested. “Instead of an invitation, try an offer of aid.”
“Your Imperial Majesty,” Dalinar said. “War is coming; surely you have seen the changes in the parshmen. The Voidbringers have returned. I would have you know that the Alethi are your allies in this conflict. We would share information regarding our successes and failures in resisting this enemy, with hope that you will report the same to us. Mankind must be unified in the face of the mounting threat.”
The reply eventually came: “ ‘We agree that aiding one another in this new age will be of the utmost importance. We are glad to exchange information. What do you know of these transformed parshmen?’ ”
“We engaged them on the Shattered Plains,” Dalinar said, relieved to make some kind of headway. “Creatures with red eyes, and similar in many ways to the parshmen we found on the Shattered Plains—only more dangerous. I will have my scribes prepare reports for you detailing all we have learned in fighting the Parshendi over the years.”
“ ‘Excellent,’” the reply finally came. “ ‘This information will be extremely welcome in our current conflict.’ ”
“What is the status of your cities?” Dalinar asked. “What have the parshmen been doing there? Do they seem to have a goal beyond wanton destruction?”
Tensely, they waited for word. So far they’d been able to discover blessed little about the parshmen the world over. Captain Kaladin sent reports using scribes from towns he visited, but knew next to nothing. Cities were in chaos, and reliable information scarce.
“ ‘Fortunately,’ ” came the reply, “ ‘our city stands, and the enemy is not actively attacking any longer. We are negotiating with the hostiles.’ ”
“Negotiating?” Dalinar said, shocked. He turned to Teshav, who shook her head in wonder.
“Please clarify, Your Majesty,” Navani said. “The Voidbringers are willing to negotiate with you?”
“ ‘Yes,’ ” came the reply. “ ‘We are exchanging contracts. They have very detailed demands, with outrageous stipulations. We hope that we can forestall armed conflict in order to gather ourselves and fortify the city.’ ”
“They can write?” Navani pressed. “The Voidbringers themselves are sending you contracts?”
“ ‘The average parshman cannot write, so far as we can tell,’ ” the reply came. “ ‘But some are different—stronger, with strange powers. They do not speak like the others.’ ”
“Your Majesty,” Dalinar said, stepping up to the spanreed writing table, speaking more urgently—as if the emperor and his ministers could hear his passion through the written word. “I need to talk to you directly. I can come myself, through the portal we wrote of earlier. We must get it working again.”
Silence. It stretched so long that Dalinar found himself grinding his teeth, itching to summon a Shardblade and dismiss it, over and over, as had been his habit as a youth. He’d picked it up from his brother.
A response finally came. “ ‘We regret to inform you that the device you mention,’ ” Kalami read, “ ‘is not functional in our city. We have investigated it, and have found that it was destroyed long ago. We cannot come to you, nor you to us. Many apologies.’ ”
“He’s telling us this now?” Dalinar said. “Storms! That’s information we could have used as soon as he learned it!”
“It’s a lie,” Navani said. “The Oathgate on the Shattered Plains functioned after centuries of storms and crem buildup. The one in Azimir is a monument in the Grand Market, a large dome in the center of the city.”
Or so she’d determined from maps. The one in Kholinar had been incorporated into the palace structure, while the one in Thaylen City was some kind of religious monument. A beautiful relic like this wouldn’t simply be destroyed.
“I agree with Brightness Navani’s assessment,” Teshav said. “They are worried about the idea of you or your armies visiting. This is an excuse.” She frowned, as if the emperor and his ministers were little more than spoiled children disobeying their tutors.
The spanreed started writing again.
“What does it say?” Dalinar said, anxious.
“It’s an affidavit,” Navani said, amused. “That the Oathgate is not functional, signed by imperial architects and stormwardens.” She read further. “Oh, this is delightful. Only the Azish would assume you’d want certification that something is broken.”
“Notably,” Kalami added, “it only certifies that the device ‘does not function as a portal.’ But of course it would not, not unless a Radiant were to visit and work it. This affidavit basically says that when turned off, the device doesn’t work.”
“Write this, Kalami,” Dalinar said. “Your Majesty. You ignored me once. Destruction caused by the Everstorm was the result. Please, this time listen. You cannot negotiate with the Voidbringers. We must unify, share information, and protect Roshar. Together.”
She wrote it and Dalinar waited, hands pressed against the table.
“ ‘We misspoke when we mentioned negotiations,’” Kalami read. “ ‘It was a mistake of translation. We agree to share information, but time is short right now. We will contact you again to further discuss. Farewell, Highprince Kholin.’”
“Bah!” Dalinar said, pushing himself back from the table. “Fools, idiots! Storming lighteyes and Damnation’s own politics!” He stalked across the room, wishing he had something to kick, before forcing his temper under control.
“That’s more of a stonewall than I expected,” Navani said, folding her arms. “Brightness Khal?”
“In my experiences with the Azish,” Teshav said, “they are extremely proficient at saying very little in as many words as possible. This is not an unusual example of communication with their upper ministers. Don’t be put off; it will take time to accomplish anything with them.”
“Time during which Roshar burns,” Dalinar said. “Why did they pull back regarding their claim to have had negotiations with the Voidbringers? Are they thinking of allying themselves to the enemy?”
“I hesitate to guess,” Teshav said. “But I would say that they simply decided they’d given away more information than intended.”
“We need Azir,” Dalinar said. “Nobody in Makabak will listen to us unless we have Azir’s blessing, not to mention that Oathgate.…” He trailed off as a different spanreed on the table started blinking.
“It’s the Thaylens,” Kalami said. “They’re early.”
“You want to reschedule?” Navani asked.
Dalinar shook his head. “No, we can’t afford to wait another few days before the queen can spare time again.” He took a deep breath. Storms, talking to politicians was more exhausting than a hundred-mile march in full armor. “Proceed, Kalami. I’ll contain my frustration.”
Navani settled down on one of the seats, though Dalinar remained standing. Light poured in through the windows, pure and bright. It flowed down, bathing him. He breathed in, almost feeling as if he could taste the sunlight. He’d spent too many days inside the twisting stone corridors of Urithiru, lit by the frail light of candles and lamps.
“ ‘Her Royal Highness,’ ” Kalami read, “ ‘Brightness Fen Rnamdi, queen of Thaylenah, writes to you.’ ” Kalami paused. “Brightlord… pardon the interruption, but that indicates that the queen holds the spanreed herself rather than using a scribe.”
To another woman, that would have been intimidating. To Kalami, it was merely one of many footnotes—which she added copiously to the bottom of the page before preparing the reed to relay Dalinar’s words.
“Your Majesty,” Dalinar said, clasping his hands behind his back and pacing the stage at the center of the seats. Do better. Unite them. “I send you greetings from Urithiru, holy city of the Knights Radiant, and extend to you our humblest invitation. This tower is truly a sight to behold, matched only by the glory of a sitting monarch. I would be honored to present it for you to experience.”
The spanreed quickly scribbled a reply. Queen Fen was writing directly in Alethi. “ ‘Kholin,’ ” Kalami read, “ ‘you old brute. Quit spreading chull scat. What do you really want?’ ”
“I always did like her,” Navani noted.
“I’m being sincere, Your Majesty,” Dalinar said. “My only desire is for us to meet in person, and to talk to you and show you what we’ve discovered. The world is changing around us.”
“ ‘Oh,’ ” came the reply, “ ‘the world is changing, is it? What led you to this incredible conclusion? Was it the fact that our slaves suddenly became Voidbringers, or was it perhaps the storm that blew the wrong way,’—She wrote that twice as large as the line around it, Brightlord—‘ripping our cities apart?’ ”
Aladar cleared his throat. “Her Majesty seems to be having a bad day.”
“She’s insulting us,” Navani said. “For Fen, that actually implies a good day.”
“She’s always been perfectly civil the few times I’ve met her,” Dalinar said with a frown.
“She was being queenly then,” Navani said. “You’ve got her talking to you directly. Trust me, it’s a good sign.”
“Your Majesty,” Dalinar said, “please tell me of your parshmen. The transformation came upon them?”
“ ‘Yes,’ ” she replied. “ ‘Storming monsters stole our best ships—almost everything in the harbor from single-masted sloops on up—and escaped the city.’ ”
“They… sailed?” Dalinar said, again shocked. “Confirm. They didn’t attack?”
“ ‘There were some scuffles,’ ” Fen wrote, “ ‘but most everyone was too busy dealing with the eff cts of the storm. By the time we got things somewhat sorted out, they were sailing away in a grand fleet of royal warships and private trading vessels alike.’ ”
Dalinar drew a breath. We don’t know half as much about the Voidbringers as we assumed. “Your Majesty,” he continued. “You might remember that we warned you about the imminent arrival of that storm.”
“ ‘I believed you,’ ” Fen said. “ ‘If only because we got word from New Natanan confirming it. We tried to prepare, but a nation cannot upend four millennia worth of tradition at a snap of the fingers. Thaylen City is a shambles, Kholin. The storm broke our aqueducts and sewer systems, and ripped apart our docks—flattened the entire outer market! We have to fix all our cisterns, reinforce our buildings to withstand storms, and rebuild society—all without any parshman laborers and in the middle of the storming Weeping. I don’t have time for sightseeing.’ ”
“It’s hardly sightseeing, Your Majesty,” Dalinar said. “I am aware of your problems, and dire though they are, we cannot ignore the Voidbringers. I intend to convene a grand conference of kings to fight this threat.”
“ ‘Led by you,’ ” Fen wrote in reply. “ ‘Of course.’ ”
“Urithiru is the natural location for a meeting,” Dalinar said. “Your Majesty, the Knights Radiant have returned—we speak again their ancient oaths, and bind the Surges of nature to us. If we can restore your Oathgate to functionality, you can be here in an afternoon, then return the same evening to direct the needs of your city.”
Navani nodded at this tactic, though Aladar folded his arms, looking thoughtful.
“What?” Dalinar asked him as Kalami wrote.
“We need a Radiant to travel to the city to activate their Oathgate, right?” Aladar asked.
“Yes,” Navani said. “A Radiant needs to unlock the gate on this side— which we can do at any moment—then one has to travel to the destination city and undo the lock there as well. That done, a Radiant can initiate a transfer from either location.”
“Then the only one we have that can theoretically get to Thaylen City is the Windrunner,” Aladar said. “But what if it takes him months to get back here? Or what if he’s captured by the enemy? Can we even make good on our promises, Dalinar?”
A troubling problem, but one that Dalinar thought he might have an answer to. There was a weapon that he’d decided to keep hidden for now. It might work as well as a Radiant’s Shardblade in opening the Oathgates— and might let someone reach Thaylen City by flight.
That was moot for the time being. First he needed a willing ear on the other side of the spanreed.
Fen’s reply came. “ ‘I will admit that my merchants are intrigued by these Oathgates. We have lore surrounding them here, that the one most Passionate could cause the portal of worlds to open again. I think every girl in Thaylenah dreams of being the one to invoke it.’ ”
“The Passions,” Navani said with a downward turn of her lips. The Thaylens had a pagan pseudo-religion, and that had always been a curious aspect in dealing with them. They would praise the Heralds one moment, then speak of the Passions the next.
Well, Dalinar wasn’t one to fault another for unconventional beliefs.
“ ‘If you want to send me what you know about these Oathgates, well, that sounds great,’ ” Fen continued. “ ‘But I’m not interested in some grand conference of kings. You let me know what you boys come up with, because I’m going to be here frantically trying to rebuild my city.’ ”
“Well,” Aladar said, “at least we finally got an honest response.”
“I’m not convinced this is honest,” Dalinar said. He rubbed his chin, thinking. He’d only met this woman a few times, but something seemed off about her responses.
“I agree, Brightlord,” Teshav said. “I think any Thaylen would jump at the chance to come pull strings at a meeting of monarchs, if only to see if she can find a way to get trade deals out of them. She is most certainly hiding something.”
“Offer troops,” Navani said, “to help her rebuild.”
“Your Majesty,” Dalinar said, “I am deeply grieved to hear of your losses. I have many soldiers here who are currently unoccupied. I would gladly send you a battalion to help repair your city.”
The reply was slow in coming. “ ‘I’m not sure what I think of having Alethi troops on my stone, well intentioned or not.’ ”
Aladar grunted. “She’s worried about invasion? Everyone knows Alethi and ships don’t mix.”
“She’s not worried about us arriving on ships,” Dalinar said. “She’s worried about an army of troops suddenly materializing in the center of her city.”
A very rational worry. If Dalinar had the inclination, he could send a Windrunner to secretly open a city’s Oathgate, and invade in an unprecedented assault that appeared right behind enemy lines.
He needed allies, not subjects, so he wouldn’t do it—at least not to a potentially friendly city. Kholinar, however, was another story. They still didn’t have reliable word of what was happening in the Alethi capital. But if the rioting was still going on, he’d been thinking that there might be a way to get armies in and restore order.
For now, he needed to focus on Queen Fen. “Your Majesty,” he said, nodding for Kalami to write, “consider my offer of troops, please. And as you do, might I suggest that you begin searching among your people for budding Knights Radiant? They are the key to working Oathgates.
“We have had a number of Radiants manifest near the Shattered Plains. They are formed through an interaction with certain spren, who seem to be searching for worthy candidates. I can only assume this is happening worldwide. It is entirely likely that among the people of your city, someone has already spoken the oaths.”
“You’re giving up quite an advantage, Dalinar,” Aladar noted.
“I’m planting a seed, Aladar,” Dalinar said. “And I’ll plant it on any hill I can find, regardless of who owns it. We must fight as a unified people.”
“I don’t dispute that,” Aladar said, standing up and stretching. “But your knowledge of the Radiants is a bargaining point, one that can perhaps draw people to you—force them to work with you. Give up too much, and you might find a ‘headquarters’ for the Knights Radiant in every major city across Roshar. Rather than working together, you’ll have them competing to recruit.”
He was right, unfortunately. Dalinar hated turning knowledge into bargaining chips, but what if this was why he’d always failed in his negotiations with the highprinces? He wanted to be honest, straightforward, and let the pieces fall where they may. But it seemed that someone better at the game—and more willing to break the rules—always snatched the pieces from the air as he dropped them, then set them down the way they wanted.
“And,” he said quickly for Kalami to add, “we would be happy to send our Radiants to train those you discover, then introduce them to the system and fraternity of Urithiru, to which each of them has a right by nature of their oaths.”
Kalami added this, then twisted the spanreed to indicate they were done and waiting for a reply.
“ ‘We will consider this,’ ” Kalami read as the spanreed scribbled across the page. “ ‘The crown of Thaylenah thanks you for your interest in our people, and we will consider negotiations regarding your offer of troops. We have sent some of our few remaining cutters to track down the fleeing parshmen, and will inform you of what we discover. Until we speak again, Highprince.’ ”
“Storms,” Navani said. “She reverted to queenspeak. We lost her somewhere in there.”
Dalinar sat down in the seat next to her and let out a long sigh. “Dalinar…” she said.
“I’m fine, Navani,” he said. “I can’t expect glowing commitments to cooperation on my first attempt. We’ll just have to keep trying.”
The words were more optimistic than he felt. He wished he could talk to these people in person, instead of over spanreed.
They talked to the princess of Yezier next, followed by the prince of Tashikk. They didn’t have Oathgates, and were less essential to his plan, but he wanted to at least open lines of communication with them.
Neither gave him more than vague answers. Without the Azish emperor’s blessing, he wouldn’t be able to get any of the smaller Makabaki kingdoms to commit. Perhaps the Emuli or the Tukari would listen, but he’d only ever get one of those two, considering their long-standing feud.
At the end of the last conference, Aladar and his daughter excusing themselves, Dalinar stretched, feeling worn down. And this wasn’t the end of it. He would have discussions with the monarchs of Iri—it had three, strangely. The Oathgate at Rall Elorim was in their lands, making them important—and they held sway over nearby Rira, which had another Oathgate.
Beyond that, of course, there were the Shin to deal with. They hated using spanreeds, so Navani had poked at them through a Thaylen merchant who had been willing to relay information.
Dalinar’s shoulder protested as he stretched. He had found middle age to be like an assassin—quiet, creeping along behind him. Much of the time he would go about his life as he always had, until an unexpected ache or pain gave warning. He was not the youth he had once been.
And bless the Almighty for that, he thought idly, bidding farewell to Navani—who wanted to sift through information reports from various spanreed stations around the world. Aladar’s daughter and scribes were gathering them in bulk for her.
Dalinar collected several of his guards, leaving others for Navani should she need some extra hands, and climbed up along the rows of seats to the room’s exit at the top. Hovering just outside the doorway—like an axehound banished from the warmth of the fire—stood Elhokar.
“Your Majesty?” Dalinar said, starting. “I’m glad you could make the meeting. Are you feeling better?”
“Why do they refuse you, Uncle?” Elhokar asked, ignoring the question. “Do they think perhaps you will try to usurp their thrones?”
Dalinar drew in his breath sharply, and his guards looked embarrassed to be standing nearby. They backed up to give him and the king privacy.
“Elhokar…” Dalinar said.
“You likely think I say this in spite,” the king said, poking his head into the room, noting his mother, then looking back at Dalinar. “I don’t. You are better than I am. A better soldier, a better person, and certainly a better king.”
“You do yourself a disservice, Elhokar. You must—”
“Oh, save your platitudes, Dalinar. For once in your life, just be honest with me.”
“You think I haven’t been?”
Elhokar raised his hand and lightly touched his own chest. “Perhaps you have been, at times. Perhaps the liar here is me—lying to tell myself I could do this, that I could be a fraction of the man my father was. No, don’t interrupt me, Dalinar. Let me have my say. Voidbringers? Ancient cities full of wonder? The Desolations?” Elhokar shook his head. “Perhaps… perhaps I’m a fine king. Not extraordinary, but not an abject failure. But in the face of these events, the world needs better than fine.”
There seemed a fatalism to his words, and that sent a worried shiver through Dalinar. “Elhokar, what are you saying?”
Elhokar strode into the chamber and called down to those at the bottom of the rows of seats. “Mother, Brightness Teshav, would you witness something for me?”
Storms, no, Dalinar thought, hurrying after Elhokar. “Don’t do this, son.”
“We all must accept the consequences of our actions, Uncle,” Elhokar said. “I’ve been learning this very slowly, as I can be as dense as a stone.”
“But—”
“Uncle, am I your king?” Elhokar demanded.
“Yes.”
“Well, I shouldn’t be.” He knelt, shocking Navani and causing her to pull to a stop three-quarters of the way up the steps. “Dalinar Kholin,” Elhokar said in a loud voice, “I swear to you now. There are princes and highprinces. Why not kings and highkings? I give an oath, immutable and witnessed, that I accept you as my monarch. As Alethkar is to me, I am to you.”
Dalinar breathed out, looking to Navani’s aghast face, then down to his nephew, kneeling as a vassal on the floor.
“You did ask for this, Uncle,” Elhokar said. “Not specifically in words, but it is the only place we could have gone. You have slowly been taking command ever since you decided to trust those visions.”
“I’ve tried to include you,” Dalinar said. Silly, impotent words. He should be better than that. “You are right, Elhokar. I’m sorry.”
“Are you?” Elhokar asked. “Are you really?”
“I’m sorry,” Dalinar said, “for your pain. I’m sorry that I didn’t handle this better. I’m sorry that this… this must be. Before you make this oath, tell me what you expect that it entails?”
“I’ve already said the words,” Elhokar said, growing red faced. “Before witnesses. It is done. I’ve—”
“Oh, stand up,” Dalinar said, grabbing him by the arm and hauling him to his feet. “Don’t be dramatic. If you really want to swear this oath, I’ll let you. But let’s not pretend you can sweep into a room, shout a few words, and assume it’s a legal contract.”
Elhokar pulled his arm free and rubbed it. “Won’t even let me abdicate with dignity.”
“You’re not abdicating,” Navani said, joining them. She shot a glare at the guards, who stood watching with slack jaws, and they grew white at the glare. She pointed at them as if to say, Not a word of this to anyone else. “Elhokar, you intend to shove your uncle into a position above you. He’s right to ask. What will this mean for Alethkar?”
“I…” Elhokar swallowed. “He should give up his lands to his heir. Dalinar is a king of somewhere else, after all. Dalinar, Highking of Urithiru, maybe the Shattered Plains.” He stood straighter, speaking more certainly. “Dalinar must stay out of the direct management of my lands. He can give me commands, but I decide how to see them accomplished.”
“It sounds reasonable,” Navani said, glancing at Dalinar.
Reasonable, but gut-wrenching. The kingdom he’d fought for—the kingdom he’d forged in pain, exhaustion, and blood—now rejected him.
This is my land now, Dalinar thought. This tower covered in coldspren. “I can accept these terms, though at times I might need to give commands to your highprinces.”
“As long as they’re in your domain,” Elhokar said, a hint of stubbornness to his voice, “I consider them under your authority. While they visit Urithiru or the Shattered Plains, command as you wish. When they return to my kingdom, you must go through me.” He looked to Dalinar, and then glanced down, as if embarrassed to be making demands.
“Very well,” Dalinar said. “Though we need to work this out with scribes before we make the change officially. And before we go too far, we should make certain there is still an Alethkar for you to rule.”
“I’ve been thinking the same thing. Uncle, I want to lead our forces to Alethkar and recapture our homeland. Something is wrong in Kholinar. More than these riots or my wife’s supposed behavior, more than the spanreeds going still. The enemy is doing something in the city. I’ll take an army to stop it, and save the kingdom.”
Elhokar? Leading troops? Dalinar had been imagining himself leading a force, cutting through the Voidbringer ranks, sweeping them from Alethkar and marching into Kholinar to restore order.
Truth was, though, it didn’t make sense for either of them to lead such an assault. “Elhokar,” Dalinar said, leaning in. “I’ve been considering something. The Oathgate is attached to the palace itself. We don’t need to march an army all the way to Alethkar. All we need to do is restore that device! Once it works, we can transport our forces into the city to secure the palace, restore order, and fend off the Voidbringers.”
“Get into the city,” Elhokar said. “Uncle, to do that we might need an army in the first place!”
“No,” Dalinar said. “A small team could reach Kholinar far faster than an army. As long as there was a Radiant with them, they could sneak in, restore the Oathgate, and open the way for the rest of us.”
Elhokar perked up. “Yes! I’ll do it, Uncle. I’ll take a team and reclaim our home. Aesudan is there; if the rioting is still happening, she’s fighting against it.”
That wasn’t what the reports—before they’d cut off—had suggested to Dalinar. If anything, the queen was the cause of the riots. And he certainly hadn’t been intending Elhokar to go on this mission himself.
Consequences. The lad was earnest, as he’d always been. Besides, Elhokar seemed to have learned something from his near death at the hands of assassins. He was certainly humbler now than he’d been in years past.
“It is fitting,” Dalinar said, “that their king should be the one who saves them. I will see that you have whatever resources you need, Elhokar.”
Glowing gloryspren orbs burst around Elhokar. He grinned at them. “I only seem to see those when I’m around you, Uncle. Funny. For all that I should resent you, I don’t. It’s hard to resent a man who is doing his best. I’ll do it. I’ll save Alethkar. I need one of your Radiants. The hero, preferably.”
“The hero?”
“The bridgeman,” Elhokar said. “The soldier. He needs to go with me, so if I screw up and fail, someone will be there to save the city anyway.”
Dalinar blinked. “That’s very… um…”
“I’ve had ample chances to reflect lately, Uncle,” Elhokar said. “The Almighty has preserved me, despite my stupidity. I’ll bring the bridgeman with me, and I’ll observe him. Figure out why he’s so special. See if he’ll teach me to be like him. And if I fail…” He shrugged. “Well, Alethkar is in safe hands regardless, right?”
Dalinar nodded, bemused.
“I need to make plans,” Elhokar said. “I’ve only just recovered from my wounds. But I can’t leave until the hero returns anyway. Could he fly me and my chosen team to the city? That would certainly be the fastest way. I will want every report we’ve had from Kholinar, and I need to study the Oathgate device in person. Yes, and have drawings done comparing it to the one in the city. And…” He beamed. “Thank you, Uncle. Thank you for believing in me, if only this small amount.”
Dalinar nodded to him, and Elhokar retreated, a spring in his step. Dalinar sighed, feeling overwhelmed by the exchange. Navani hovered by his side as he settled down in one of the seats for the Radiants, beside a pedestal for a little spren.
On one side, he had a king swearing to him an oath he didn’t want. On the other, he had an entire group of monarchs who wouldn’t listen to his most rational of suggestions. Storms.
“Dalinar?” Kalami said. “Dalinar!”
He leaped to his feet, and Navani spun. Kalami was watching one of the spanreeds, which had started writing. What was it now? What terrible news awaited him?
“ ‘Your Majesty,’ ” Kalami read from the page, “ ‘I consider your off r generous, and your advice wise. We have located the device you call an Oathgate. One of my people has come forward, and—remarkably—claims to be Radiant. Her spren directed her to speak with me; we plan to use her Shardblade to test the device.
“ ‘If it works, I will come to you in all haste. It is well that someone is attempting to organize a resistance to the evils that befall us. The nations of Roshar must put aside their squabbles, and the reemergence of the holy city of Urithiru is proof to me that the Almighty guides your hand. I look forward to counseling with you and adding my forces to yours in a joint operation to protect these lands.’ ” She looked up at him, amazed. “It was sent by Taravangian, king of Jah Keved and Kharbranth.”
Taravangian? Dalinar hadn’t expected him to reply so quickly. He was said to be a kindly, if somewhat simple man. Perfect for ruling a small city-state with the help of a governing council. His elevation to king of Jah Keved was widely seen as an act of spite from the former king, who hadn’t wanted to give the throne to any of his rivals’ houses.
The words still warmed Dalinar. Someone had listened. Someone was willing to join him. Bless that man, bless him.
If Dalinar failed everywhere else, at least he would have King Taravangian at his side.
Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book 3 copyright © 2017 Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC
Yay cant wait to read this
YUSSSSSS!!!
Summoned to life for three more chapters!
YAY!
HOLY CRAP IT’S ANOTHER AWESOME SET OF CHAPTERS
My weekly fix
@@@@@trimerion
Apparently you can wait to read this, since you jumped straight to the comments, bypassing the wall of awesome on your way.
Um…Taravangian. Should I be worried?
Soulcasting of meat? That sounds…odd on a visceral level (even if meat, like anything else, is just molecules). Is it like a replicator based food? Can you really tell the difference?
I find Syl rather hit or miss – sometimes I find her ‘banter’ seems to be trying a bit too hard. When it lands, it lands well, but I would say a sizeable portion of the time (not a majority, but enough that I notice it) something about the humor falls flat with me (then again, I never cared for some of Sanderson’s other ‘humor’ characters either, so it might just be a personal preference). But her ribbing on Kaladin about Shallan (and her not trusting Adolin, which is interesting – is it just due to the Shardblade, or something else), the ardent and sex is rather funny. And I think their conversations ARE a useful vehicle to learn little tidbits about the spren.
And I think it’s interesting that Kaladin’s main objections aren’t ‘I don’t like her’ but just stuff like, ‘she’s engaged, she’s a lighteyes’, etc.
Oh god, the image of her trying to cheerlead during ‘being intimate’ is really freaking funny. Ha :)
**
I think for what it’s worth, Renarin’s family does not seem to find him creepy, and they understand/accept him for how he is. And that at least seems to make me look more favorably on Adolin as well. His description of Renarin’s thought patterns definitely reminds me of some people I know well that are very intelligent but sometimes at first glance appear either slow or just out of it/incomprehensible (my husband, included. I used to joke that his thought pattern was more like A to R then back to C and then to Z and we’ve been together so long I undertsand him pretty well, but when people watch us interact they sometimes wonder what’s going on, ha).
Anyway – I thought the scene between brothers was very sweet (I have two boys, so maybe I just like brothers :) ) and if anything, at least so far, I am noticing that Adolin does not really seem the jealous type at all – he doesn’t appear to have any resentment whatsoever that Renarin has a radiant blade, etc. Although I was a little confused about this part: “A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.” – was he seeing Adolin, or Renarin? At first I was reading it assuming that Adolin was seeing Renarin, but then I realized: himself seems to refer to Adolin so I’m guessing that it’s Adolin. It’s interesting to me that Adolin is seeing HIMSELF (in his mind’s eye, I suppose) and so is that part of Renarin’s use of Illumination? I wonder, is this kind of like how in Mistborn some of the metals are paired and there are ‘external’ and ‘internal’ uses? Shallan’s illumination affects how others see HER (although presumably she can also make illusions of other external things). Is Renarin’s more focused on how you see yourself? (Again, I’m thinking of metals like gold/electrum which let you see who you are in the past/future, or even something like malatium which allows you to ‘see either who another person was in the past, or who they could have become if they made different choices). Or maybe, given the other things Renarin has ‘seen’, it’s more about just generally seeing to the heart of things/their true potential. So far I think Truthwatchers are shaping up to be the most interesting Radiants :) But I suppose this also begs teh question – we know Orders share surges, but do they use the surges differently? At least with progression, that seems fairly straightforward (healing).
Ok, I have to do some work now so I’ll get to the other chapters later! People have probably already said all this stuff anyway ;)
Taravangian (auto correct changes to tara banging) just who you want at your back all things considered
wwapon hidden for now – the ‘madmans’ (herald of war) original blade. Curious who ends up with that.
Annoyed there was no lift, still hanging. And for Nale.
Dalinar may be able to use the ‘hidden weapon’ himself, as it’s not a dead spren?
renarin rocked this chapter, regrowth would have to be very useful to dalinar. Elhokar, hate him slightly less now.
Really though… who is taravangians radiant? Or does he still think he has control of Seth? Very curious.
Did anyone else think, “Leeerooooy Jeeeeenkiiins!” when Gavilar went running in the middle of Sadeas’ sentence?
Ok done reading now, … taravignian helping??? … and since when has a radiant been around him?
That seems very suspect, and I hope things go well
BluBe @10 I don’t think we get lift for quite a while. Pretty sure in Arcanum unbounded Brandon said the reason he wrote edgedancer was because by the time we saw her next she’d have spoken a bunch more oaths, and to give us context. Which is really sad because lift is one of my favourite characters and I wish we got more of her viewpoint :(
Only read ch 10 (because some of us have to work… boo!!), let me just say that so far this book has been satisfied me immensely. And it is so much fun! Ha! Loved that bit of Kaladin, Syl, and… sex. That drew a chuckle. Cant wait to read more.
So we never saw what happened to Szeth’s old honorblade. Kaladin and Dalinar had it, so I assumed they would’ve either given it to somebody or Dalinar still has it.
That Adolin Renarin exchange was nice, I’m feeling less worried about Renarin than after this last chapter.
Oh storms, no. Not Taravangian.
Thought I would be waiting until the official release but the peer pressure is too much ;) Can’t hold off any longer!
Random comments in no specific order:
– I thought the Voidbringer attack was very suspect… I am not sure it was Voidbringers.
– Kaladin is annoyed at being turned into a spectacle.
– The idea of Syl spying on Kaladin during sex was actually hilarious. Kaladin really likes Shallan.
– Syl hates and mistrusts Adolin, this made me sad.
– Adolin used to be afraid of horses. I liked knowing this because it tells us something about his personality which many readers over-looked.
– Adolin is overseeing Gallant because Dalinar isn’t giving him any attention anymore. Gallant seems to like Adolin. Maybe he’ll adopt him?
– Adolin is absolutely NOT jealous, NOT envious, NOT disturbed over his family being Radiants or his Blade being dead. A lot of speculative theory making can go down the sewer: it doesn’t look like we are getting a story arc where Adolin deals with “being useless” or “not a Radiant”. It just do not see it happening. Truth is: he does NOT mind it at all. He does not care.
– The insight on Renarin was sweet. I have liked Adolin/Renarin’s scenes.
– Renarin healed Adolin’s wrist. I thought Brandon would hold up for this one until later in the story. The injury was interesting, now it is gone.
– What is it with Adolin seeing himself as “perfected” and “whole”? What did he mean by “whole”? Adolin is not broken… so where does it come from?
– The flashback was great, as usual. Things which are important to note: Dalinar killed a boy of 6 to get Oathbringer and Oathbringer was the Sunmaker’s Blade. Finally, we can say it.
– The negociations didn’t go like Dalinar wanted, predictable. I didn’t fancy the exchanges all that much: these tend not to be my favorite part of stories even if required.
– Elhokar makes a move. AH. My most obscure theory seems to come to live, the one which doesn’t involve Elhokar becoming an antagonist. I can’t believe I might end up being right about this one…
– I am not sure I understood everything… Did Dalinar just give up being Highprince? Does it mean Adolin is now the Highprince? I really, really, really hate it if this is the case.
– Elhokar goes to Kholinar with Kaladin. I didn’t see this one coming. I don’t know how I feel about it.
Overall, I liked the chapters, but less so than the other weeks. I have a mild disappointment. While it seems everyone’s story arc is going into interesting places (even Elhokar, so he’s likely our mystery novella character), I feel Adolin’s character is going… nowhere. The scene he had was cute and everything, but I really do not get the sense his story is kicking up. He hasn’t been given anything really exciting to do… Sure there is the investigation, but nothing seems to be happening with it, Adolin does not even seem to care he murdered Sadeas, he doesn’t seem to care about anything happening, so right now it feels like one big deflated balloon.
To follow.
I literally lunged into the air with my fist raised, shouting “Kaladin!” when the update loaded. Totally worth the weird looks I got. There are not enough grinning faces to convey how delighted I am!
I’ve been racking mentions of Hav through the books, so I took note of this one. He was the soldier who Kaladin thought might have left to become an ardent–I’m pretty sure he’s still a guard in Amaram’s service, though, which could be useful later on. Or painful.
Kaladin’s vp is actually the lightest part of Chapter 10! It’s good to see him smiling and snarking with Syl; to think that so many people predicted he’d be all doom and gloom again. I don’t doubt that there’ll be more bad times ahead for him–even if the world wasn’t at war, depression doesn’t just go away. But it’s nice to see him have a good day, poor fellow. And the face he must’ve made thinking about Syl “cheerleading”. . . I am laughing right now. I love these little tidbits about the difficulties of having a constant companion who doesn’t really understand human privacy, like Shallan and Patterns’ in WoR.
The scene with Adolin and Renarin, though, is solid and heartwarming. I believe the proper expression is “all of the feels.” Poor Sureblood, and poor Adolin. I love that Renarin’s first “onscreen” Surgebinding is healing his brother and showing Adolin the perfect image of himself–perhaps how Renarin sees him. I think this is my favorite part of this excerpt, and I’ll probably reread it most.
Chapter 11: Dalinar won his shards by kicking their Bearer off a cliff. Of course. :D It’s interesting that early on Sadeas was the “sane man” of the trio, with the two Kholin brothers charging ahead. Still a brutal bastard, though. He might not have been wrong, sadly. Also, seeing as how Gavilar witnessed what happens when enemies are united by the threat of a greater enemy, he really should’ve know better than to think that was how he was meant to unite Alethkar. Maybe he thought there was some religious exception because it would be a holy war. The more I read about him, the less I like him. Honestly, most of this chapter is horrible. It starts with banter and ends with the memory of a crying child. . .one I’m pretty sure Dalinar killed, if I read the “highlord and his heir” line correctly.
Chapter 12: Storm it, Gawx! Maybe once Lift gets back they’ll open the Oathgate. I can hope. It’s interesting that Alethi and ships don’t mix. Maybe this is more of the social structure left over from the shadowdays? Someone had to be in charge of travel and commerce, like the Alethi are meant for war and watching, and the Azish for recording and beaurocratic order. And of storming course only King T. is willing to take Dalinar at his word, since his damn book club is trying to do exactly what Dalinar is. Bet you he’ll let Dalinar do all the hard work, then try to get rid of him and take over. (Aside, I wonder who this “Radiant” woman is.) But Elhokar in this chapter is amazing! I’ve had faith in him for a while now, and it looks like it might be justified. Oh, Elhokar, the way you want Kaladin to be there in case you screw up is a mix of heartwarming and heartbreaking. And with this newfound facing of the truth, he might attract a Cryptic of his own. I’m not sure of that, but if it does happen the foundations are right here.
I am very curious about how Taravangian is going to play this. He’s been following the diagram, trying to do exactly what Dalinar is now trying to do. He’s lost his assassin, which makes it harder to do it the way he was before. Will he actually throw in with Dalinar? Seems unlikely given what the Diagram says about the Blackthorne. “The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.”
It seems obvious from where we’re sitting that the Knights Radiant are essential to turning back the Desolation, which would mean that allying with Dalinar, using the Oathgates, etc. would be in everyone’s best interests but the Diagram also says, “Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return.”
Given how inconsistent Taravangian is (and knows himself to be), he’d be the perfect subject king. He’s got a lot to contribute, but he can’t be trusted to be in charge on his own. The question is, will he ever be willing to take a backseat? Based on what we’ve seen of him, and how far he’s willing to go, I don’t think so, not without a fight at least. And given how much Dalinar is underestimating him here, there’s a lot of danger for the new high king in this.
I can just picture Syl sitting on the headboard offering suggestions. Though maybe Pattern commenting on the lies and truths would be more distracting.
Renarin healing Adolin’s wrist. Oh, my dear heart. And Adolin with Gallant. Ow.
So the trope is that Dalinar didn’t kill the Highprince or his heir. Or at least not his heir. But this is Sanderson we’re talking about so getting meta about the plot is just going to end in tangles.
I saw Highking Dalinar coming but I don’t remember if I put it down in writing. Bother.
I wonder…
“A troubling problem, but one that Dalinar thought he might have an answer to. There was a weapon that he’d decided to keep hidden for now. It might work as well as a Radiant’s Shardblade in opening the Oathgates— and might let someone reach Thaylen City by flight.”
So I haven’t finished reading these chapters, but what about Dalinar having Shardplate before he is married? Navani specifically said Dalinar married for his shardplate in Ch. 4…
Ooooh flashback chapter yesssss! Although (given the title) I have a feeling this is not going to end well and there will probably be some brutality before the end.
“Sadeas, in turn, pushed Gavilar toward greater brutality. He claimed that the fiercer their reputation, the more cities would turn to them willingly rather than risk being pillaged.” Oh Sadeas, you’re such a jerk. This is why nobody misses you.
I don’t have a ton to say about the battle itself, but it seems that Gavilar already is wanting to ‘unite’ Alethkar, so he is already having the visions? But Sadaes also appears to be a part of this plan so I wonder how much he knew, or what he thought the reasons were. At any rate, I find that what with this and stuff like Game of Thrones, I am kind of weary of the whole ‘I have a right to be king over everybody’ mentality at the expense of the people. Although Gavilar at least seems to have some sense of a bigger picture. Intersting that he (Gavilar) credits it towards having children forcing him to look at his legacy. I’m assuming (although grateful that we didn’t have to read it in all its detail) that he killed the little boy, and possibly the mother. If this were Game of Thrones we could probably assume that he raped her too but I’m really not sure on that part. It’s not Sanderson’s style, but at the same time, he hasn’t shied away from alluding to the fact that it’s a thing that happens. But I do wonder if that would push Dalinar over the edge to irredeemable for some readers (I find child murder to be equally as bad but I also figured that was part of his past anyway so it doesn’t quite surprise me).
Ch 12:
Mmm, is the Stormfather mentioning Shshshs? IS she something best left forgotten?
Somewhat interesting to see how the Azirish emperor’s story has been twisted a bit!
Hah, I kind of love how the Azish dodge the question. As frustrating as they are. :) And one wonders – given that you can’t really take anything for granted – maybe you CAN negotiate with the Voidbringers. Although if they really are of Odium/under his influence, I suppose not. And perhaps they are really just doing nothing but aiding the enemy if they do try to negotiate or give them what they need. Or maybe Odium really isn’t such a bad guy after all ;)
Oh Fen, I hope we get to meet you and get more of you :)
So, the general theme of all this chapters (flashback aside) is – what are the Voidbringers actually up to?
I am still not sure if I think Elkohar is trying to do the right thing and is just struggling with the knowledge of his own mediocrity, or if there is something more sinister here…I WANT to believe he’s on a redemption arc, because I like redemption arcs :)
….oh boy, it’s Mr. T. Of course ;)
One thing reading in 3 chapters a week is showing me, is how great a SA show will be. Not a movie, a TV show. It will allow for more story development.
I love this moment between the brothers. And a hint of what Renarin can do with his powers.
From the Stormfather’s comments on Dalinar’s wife, I’m thinking that forgetting her is definitely the boon, and we haven’t yet seen the curse.
@18 Hav was last (I think) seen guarding Amaram’s manor in the warcamps in WoR. Shallan had to get past him to go snoop at Amaram’s maps. At least that’s the last I remember.
I liked Adolins reaction to Renarin having a Radiant blade. Not jealousy, but “Why are you just saying this NOW?”
@22 – I was wondering that too.
One other question – do we have a general idea of what T’s motivation is? If I recall, the Sons of Honor are the ones who were actually trying to bring back the Desolations so the Heralds would return and restore Vorinism? But did T have a motivation that we know of? Some of the quotes seem to indicate some general idea of ‘uniting mankind’ to survive (survive what? Is this kind of like a Leto’s Golden Path kind of thing?) but one of them also talks about destroying new orders of Radiants. Is the idea that this could perhaps prevent the Desolations from occurring (which is what presumably Nale was trying to do at first)?
@27 And Renarin being adorably shy about it.
@28 I though the goal of the Diagram was to ensure that mankind survived the coming desolation. Since that line of reasoning has been used to justify sucking up to Nyarlathotep, it doesn’t fill me with confidence about his role in the series.
Any chance the woman at the end of the flashback is Dalinar’s wife? There is talk of wedding Dalinar for political alliance and then talk at the end of how to keep the Rift’s loyalty. Makes me wonder if he killed the kid or not.
Imagining spren in the bedroom lol.
Kaladin: how was that?
Shallan: amazing!!!
Pattern: mmmmm a powerful lie
Teleb should have aimed higher. Dalinar the younger is a bastard.
@30. Oooh. Ooooh. I bet that’s what happened to her and why there is no real mention of her after the fact (and would tie Stormfather’s mention of her to that scene). Poor woman :( I’m pretty sure he killed the kid, given his shame, memories of a crying child and the fact that they mention he killed the heir. I suppose there could have been an older/grown child, but given that this is also the event that caused one of his soldiers to flat out leave and join the Ardentia the next day – I’m going with child murder :( (My son is exactly that age, btw).
I guess you could argue that the shame/ending on the memories of the child are just due to him killing him in front of his child but…somehow that doesn’t seem quite as dramatic enough to cause a soldier to flat out leave or to have so much buildup (I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s pretty bad, but doesn’t seem *especially* bad given what else happens in a war.)
@31 LOL. I’m thinking of that scene in an old Seinfeld episode. “Fake, fake, fake, fake, FAAAAKE”.
@29 – Hah, so I was all, who the heck is Nyarlathotep? Some unmade? I even searched the coppermind for it and found no reference. Then I did a real google search, lol.
Kaladin/Elhokar awkward roadtrip is something I didn’t realize I needed until now.
Random thory, Dalinar didn’t kill the kid. He adopted him. And everyone thinks he won his shardplate from his marriage because his boon was to rewrite his past of that time in everyone else’s mind. So he married the girl whos husband he killed. And his curse was to forget her existence. Dont know if he did that after she died though. Maybe immediately after the battle, like even when they were married he couldnt see or hear her? Nope, nevermind, doesnt pan out.
Love the Kaladin chapter, except his cheerfulness, though well deserved, seems off. Like a talkative Moash, just a little off.
Also could Syl babies end up becoming Kaladin’s shardplate? She is wearing a woman’s dress, the havana, now rather than a girl’s dress. Hmm.
Countdown Reset : 7 more days. Cruel beloved Roshar.
@35 – Admittedly, I’m totally unclear on the timelines and ages and am nortoriously bad at keeping stuff like that straight (especially regarding when he went to the Nightwatcher, etc) but how crazy would it be if that kid ended up being Adolin!
(I still think he killed him).
Great chapters! Finally, we have some actual evidence that supports Renarin being a Radiant (Hi Glys! Nice Blade you seem to become). We see Dalinar acquire his Blade (…Thanalan’s son. Young Dalinar was really a beast). And finally a chapter full of some of the monarchs of Roshar. I loved the interaction with the queen of Thaylenah. And I can’t wait for more interaction with Taravangian.
I’ve got to read these chapters again. I am really loving this book so far…
The devil comes to Urithiru. I hate Taravangian so much.
@38: It was 33 years ago: Adolin is 23. He wasn’t born by a long shot, so no he is not the kid. I do think Dalinar did kill him.
On the side note, I forgot to ask if anyone caught Renarin telling Adolin to ask Shallan to draw him Sureblood, to help him… remember.
On Kaladin and Elhokar’s road trip: I will forever be sadden it isn’t a Kaladin and Adolin road trip :-(
@22, 28: Pretty sure the Shardplate Dalinar married for is the set Adolin has now. And I’m dead sure that he didn’t marry the dead man’s wife and adopt his heir.
If he didn’t kill the heir, perhaps it comes back to bite him when the grown-up version kidnaps his wife and leads the city in rebellion, and that’s the occasion that sent Kadash into the ardentia.
@@@@@ 36 I agree, definitely think lesser spren start bonding to highspen (kinda like squires to their knights) to make the plate. Now I’m imaging Syl with a gaggle of windspen flying around, playing pranks on Kal.
@@@@@38 I’m unclear on the timeline too, but I was saying it didn’t pan out because the nightwatcher magic seems to only affect the person its meant for. And a whole group of people getting their memories rewritten just doesnt add up to me.
@35 – I think that is probably it! Something along those lines anyway because Navani definitely said that he married SHSHSH only for her Shardplate. (Or was it Shardblade?)
I have a bad feeling about Elhokar needing Kaladin to go with him. I don’t trust this at all.
Gosh, these are going to be some long weeks waiting for these chapters. I love them, but also just wish it had been released with the book. Endless waiting and theorizing week after week only to get our theories shot down on the next page!
Damn it Tor, you completely ate my comment (agin).
@41 – thanks for the clarification. I think that rules that out, and I really doubt he adopted the kid since nobody ever seems to mention a third child. I mean, yeah, he could have died in the meantime, etc. but so far I’m going with no. I do think that the possibility that he married the wife (especially as it would be somewhat symmetrical being that before this scene Gavilar/Sadeas are talking about Dalinar’s need to marry, and after that scene, Stormfather mentions how his wife is best left forgotten) is still there.
Also, I thought the horse drawing suggestion was very sweet (I’m not sure if you are trying to point out a bigger significance).
@42 – certainly, that is a possibility (I won’t really rule ANYHTING out at this point) but having gone back and re-read the scene with Kadash, I think so far it pretty clearly points to this incident. Not that it couldn’t be something else, and there could be yet another twist, but somehow I think at times we are looking a little too hard for twists.
“That’s supposed to reassure me? Memories of what we did together, Dalinar? I appreciate the man you have become; you should avoid reminding me of the man you once were.”
Dalinar paused, and a memory swirled up from the depths inside him—one he hadn’t thought of in years. One that surprised him. Where had it come from?
He remembered Kadash, bloodied, kneeling on the ground having retched until his stomach was empty. A hardened soldier who had encountered something so vile that even he was shaken.
He’d left to become an ardent the next day.
“The Rift,” Dalinar whispered. “Rathalas.”
“Dark times need not be dredged up,” Kadash said. “This isn’t about… that day, Dalinar.”
But then again there is this regarding what Dalinar remembers about her death:
That one gets to me, because there are parts of that day I know I should remember. Something about a city in rebellion against my brother, and my wife being taken hostage?
That… and a long march alone, accompanied only by hatred and the Thrill. He remembered those emotions vividly. He’d brought vengeance to those who had taken his wife from him.
So – we still don’t necessarily know how she died (and if it’s related to the Rift). It could be that the incident with his wife is a different situation than the incident that drove Kadash to the ardentia. It could be that they are still the same woman (which would also lend credence to the theory that something else happens at the Rift). I guess we don’t know yet :)
But I suppose it’s also possible that he is misremembering some things. Maybe HE is the one that took his wife hostage (before he married her)…and that’s not attached to the memory of her death.
This just made my day.
@46: I found it interesting Adolin would mention the bond he feels he has with his Edgedancer Blade due to him talking to it (and admitting nobody else was doing it) within the same chapter as Renarin advises him to get a drawing of Sureblood to help him remember.
I mean, the choice of words was… interesting though I am ambivalent as to how things are currently turning up.
@@@@@ BlueBe, 10: It seems (at least to me) that the blade he is referring to is the Honorblade that Szeth owned. It isn’t a dead blade, and would grant it’s user the abilities of a windrunner.
I’m not sure that Dalinar killed the 6 year old, although if he did, that would be something I would want to forget too.
I too loved the scene with Adolin and Renarin. I really like Renarin, he is going to be awesome and I’m betting that he will be one of those characters that really grows on you until he is one of the favorite in the series, sort of like Steris.
I also liked the Elohkar scene. Doing something like that requires a lot of courage and self-awareness. I’m liking Elohkar more and more.
It’s confirmed in WoK that Adolins plate is Mom’s. One of Dalinar’s flashbacks shows an Edgedancer wearing plate that looks like it, and we know that Adolins blade is an Edgedancer blade, so wouldn’t it be neat if it was a complete set, brought back together?
@46: I’m kind of cheating, because I have information from a flashback reading I found on YouTube. I don’t think I’m supposed to spoil that, though, so I will try to remain vague. [roll over for spoiler] But I am 98% sure that Adolin remembers Kadash as a warrior when he meets with him in Way of Kings, and as other had pointed out, he’s not born yet. So though at first I thought Dalinar killed the kid, I’m now guessing that it went like this: Dalinar killed the highprince, but let the son, or mother and son, escape. The kid grew up hating the man who killed his parent(s), as one does. When Adolin was young, and Kadash was still a soldier, the now-grown kid kidnapped Dalinar’s wife. What Dalinar did to him, or what was do e to his wife, is the thing that sent Kadash to the adentia and Dalinar to the Nightwatcher.
@26: Yeah, that’s what made me start keeping track of Hav mentions. My first read-through I was sure that Kaladin knowing him would become relevant in his actions towards Amaram. I still kind of think it might, since he served as a mentor to Kaladin. He could have been one of the false witnesses to the “desertion” or he could become disgusts with his brighlord once he finds out the truth.
Note: potential spoiler whited out by moderator.
Hooray for Tuesdays! Awesome as always.
I found a couple of typos. They have probably been discovered by the last line edit before it goes to print. Otherwise, in the spirit of helping,
Sot raised the alarm, and that chased the creatures off. They only left four sacks, which we moved.
AND
I consider your offer generous, and your advice wise.
There was a Lot of good stuff packed into this section. I’m still mentally chewing on it. It’s funny, but because there’s 3 chapters at a time, I feel a little bummed each time I see that I’m moving into the next chapter… like “aw man…. it’s almost over for this week.”
@50: The Plate within the vision glowed red, so it is assumed to be a Dustbringer’s plate. Since we aren’t fully aware of how different Plates from different orders are, it is really difficult to conclude onto which order Adolin’s Plate belong.
On a side note, I hope nobody is still thinking Renarin knows about Adolin murdering Sadeas… I thought this week ruled it out.
The simplest explanation for Dalinar’s “mystery weapon” is that he’s referring to Szeth’s Honorblade. It grants flight, it’s not a radiant’s blade, and it would probably unlock an oathgate. What this sets up is an interesting plotline where Dalinar bequeaths the Honorblade to someone else, and that someone else is then hunted down by eight murderous Shin who each have their own Honorblades. Neat stuff.
I just need to say…I love this shit. I really, really do. Just booked wednesday-friday off work for the week of the release. Not like I’d get any work done anyway.
@53
I thought we saw her using the friction surge. Do dustbringers get that one? IIRC, the rereader for that chapter called her an Edgedancer.
@41: How cool would it be if Adolin is exiled before the Road Trip? Hear me out: Kaladin and Elhokar are in deep trouble in Kholinar, and then Adolin, who has been having all sorts of adventures, maybe even met up with de-Voided Eshonai, comes in to the rescue at the last minute!
Dalinar still has the Windrunner Honorblade. That’s the secret weapon of which he speaks. The scary thing is it grants powers without Oaths so whomever he grants it to must be super trustworthy. Please don’t give it to Taravangian.
Oh, for some reason I am convinced Adolin will meet with Eshonai, whether he’s exiled or not. While we’re all throwing theories out there. If there’s a chance she can come back from her possession and join Team Radiant, I think Adolin will be the one to see it done.
@56: Dustbringers and Edgedancers share Abrasion, the frictionless Surge. I have a handy little chart saved on my phone.
@53 – I don’t think this rules out that Renarin doesn’t know about Adolin’s killing of Sadeas. I still think he is trying to protect him and throw others off of his scent. Renarin’s abilities as Truthwatcher makes me think he knows this. Truthfully, WoR made it clear that we don’t know much about that order because its members never talk about what they can do.
Also, I can’t remember who posted to the contrary but I was under the impression that Szeth’s blade does grant that person Skybreaking/Windrunner-like abilites. The reason Syl insisted that taking Szeth’s blade would render him powerless (so that it wasn’t necessary for Kaladin to kill him outright).
Chapters 10-12 First Impressions
No particular order:
Kaladin is really throwing himself into the part, isn’t he? I find that funny, and then he sort of gets shot down; not being able to have his dramatic entrance. I love that.
Syl is such an imp! I love her. Kal will always be nervous should he become intimate with someone in the future. He will never feel at ease.
Wow, the more I read of the young Dalinar, the less I like the person he was. Of course I don’t like the person I was when I was young much either. We tend to be self-involved, self-serving and we think the world revolves around us. When you can slay thousands though and think nothing of it, that puts a finer edge on it.
Gavilar: too much not known, and hidden about his motivations but I think that the Parshendi probably were wise to have him assassinated when they did.
Sadeas: Well he was just creepy from the beginning, I believe.
Renarin and Adolin: It was interesting to see a shift in perspective with Renarin and Adolin. Adolin comes across as the sort of unsure person and Renarin more knowledgeable in their scenes. It seems to me that both Renarin and Adolin have consciences. Something that is good to see considering that their father and uncle didn’t appear to be too troubled with a conscience as young men. Adolin’s hand is healed.
Elhokar: Also, the scene with Elhokar was for me the high point in today’s chapter releases. He stood tall, by bowing. It actually made me cry. I hope Elhokar continues to grow in leadership abilities. He also put the entire mess of Dalinar’s actions where it belongs, with Dalinar.
In many ways I really admire Dalinar the mature, however, he has created a problem with the way he has usurped Elhokar’s power. It is fitting that Dalinar has his own kingdom to contend with, that ought to keep him busy. Oh and on rereading this, it comes to me, if his rulership of Urithiru will be an issue with the religious group of people, the Vorin? They are already not happy that he married his sister-in-law. I wonder if they will feel he is flaunting his marriage in their faces. Being a king with a wife who was your sister-in-law and high profile may seem like a slap in the face to them.
The Parshendi: I went back last night and read all the chapters that had been released. I don’t remember anyone commenting much on the first 3 chapters about what led up to Gavilar’s assassination. But I can understand from Eshonai’s point of view why they did it.
The entire slave thing just is bad all the way around to me. What interests me the most is that no one thought the Parshendi were people they had to worry about in any way. One thinks they may figure out to not underestimate the quiet ones. Gavilar thought he could manipulate them into getting what he wanted by telling Eshonai it was “for your own good”, when clearly it was self-serving, and it got him killed instead. We have a group of people that most thought were ignorant beings and savages, and surprise; they can think, reason, plan and (pun intended), execute.
It will be interesting to see how these groups of people play out in the books. I for one really liked Eshonai other than in Stormform and hope in future books that there will be a coming together of their people with the humans and have a workable and viable exchange of ideas and culture.
Was hoping to read of Wit and Jashah, but not to be, this week!
Oathgate Cities: Hmm, something seems odd to me and I am not sure what that is about.
Taravangian: Good Grief! I would not want him to have my back, because if he did, there would be a shardblade stuck in it!
I just don’t know, it is probably too early to hazard a guess as to his motivation. From what I have seen and read/listened to; it appears that Taravangian is doing everything he can to try to save the people. I just don’t believe that mass murder is the way to do it personally…
There is just so much that I don’t understand and am really trying to read as much as I can to get a better grasp of the overall worldview.
Thanks for reading my babbling!
lisamarie @9.
“A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.” – was he seeing Adolin, or Renarin? At first I was reading it assuming that Adolin was seeing Renarin, but then I realized: himself seems to refer to Adolin so I’m guessing that it’s Adolin. It’s interesting to me that Adolin is seeing HIMSELF (in his mind’s eye, I suppose) and so is that part of Renarin’s use of Illumination? My thought upon reading this was that it was because of Renarin’s Illumination, that Adolin was able to see himself in a perfected state. Interesting indeed since we know that Adolin killed Sadeas…
Trying to edit my comment so that I am not double posting.
I have not read all the comments yet but I wonder if the 50 or so that raided the food are the ones that escaped in the last book.
Won’t have time to read this until tonight. Guess I’m shooting for the 2 Hunny ;)
Reading the comments…how can people possibly think he didn’t kill the kid? Blows me away. You think the mention of how strong the Thrill was right before the scene cuts away was an accident? Even outside of battle young Dalinar is a bastard and yet he feels such a sense of shame? Give me a break; he butchered that fucking kid.
I find it odd that no one’s discussing the biggest reveal of these chapters; the “Voidbringers”. The freed Parshendi don’t appear to have red eyes, they take food without murdering people, and so far there’s been none of the mass destruction associated with a universal and completely unexpected slave rebellion.
Dalinar may be entirely wrong; they probably can negotiate with “Voidbringers”, and the planet’s survival may depend upon it. Since they don’t have red eyes, the freed Parshendi probably haven’t been converted to stormform yet, so it may be possible to avoid having them go over to Odium. The fact that they didn’t immediately murder their owners is interesting, as it suggests that they have an agenda other than revenge. Where are they going?
@65 – you can always go for the 5 hunny on the previous thread ;)
@51 – uh, you realize that saying ‘my theory is based on/supported by what I read in spoiler material, and here it is’ is a BIG FREAKING SPOILER, right?
@63 maybe. But didn’t they mention something about glowing red lights?
About Dalinar’s shardplate:
He “won [his shardplate] himself, in combat. Yes, that combat had involved kicking a man off a cliff, but he’d defeated a Shardbearer regardless.”
Yet Navani states in chapter 4: “You married Shshshsh for her Shardplate, but many marriages are for political reasons. That doesn’t mean you were wrong. If you’ll recall, we all encouraged you to do it.”
So, did he lose his shardplate, thus necessitating a political marriage? It seems odd to marry for a second set of shardplate. But we also know that Adolin’s plate came from his mother’s side. I’m just interested to have this story filled out more.
Oh, and I also like the somewhat jealous–and–selfless aside by Dalinar: ““until you say something, I’m staying single.” The only woman [Dalinar]’d ever wanted belonged to Gavilar. They’d married—storms, they had a child now. A little girl. His brother must never know how Dalinar felt.”
Couple of thoughts:
1) The Rift scene sets up the revolt to come later. Gavilar already mentions that they worry about the city since Dalinar killed the price and his heir. So, in the future, the expected revolt will happen, Dalinar’s wife will be taken hostage, Dalinar will go nuts trying to save / avenge her (my guess is he kills EVERYONE in the city, probably by collapsing the cliffs over it and burying it). That leads to Kadash joining the Ardentia and more importantly to
2) Dalinar goes to the Nightwatcher and asks for the boon to forget that day. She grants him that and the curse is he forgets EVERYTHING related to his wife. It’s the kind of symmetry I can see the Nightwatcher enforcing.
3) My guess is Taravingian’s “radiant” has a Honor Blade. I think that when he was talking to Szeth he mentioned that the Stone Shamans had a couple blades missing. Sure, that might have been a lie to explain Kaladin but it was also partly true (I assume Szeth would have known about missing blades). If that’s the case, I wonder if sprens can identify other radiants. Maybe yes, maybe no, we didn’t hear anything from Syl or Pattern on Glys, but we know that Syl did spot pattern at some point.
If it’s not an honor blade, I’m stumped, as I cannot think of a radiant willing to work with the Diagram. Maybe she got lied to though, it was stated numerous times they’re still human. Or maybe it’s Jasnah. I can also see that.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned Syl talking about “mothering” little windspren. To me this felt like some subtle foreshadowing/confirmation about where Shardplate comes from! YMMV of course, but that stuck out to me a bit
@68 More shardplate is always better. Dalinar marrying for a shard even though he already has enough is like him marrying for lands even though he already has them.
@69 Completely obliterating a city seems like a sufficient atrocity. I didn’t think that a sufficiently thorough sack or massacre was bad enough to justify Dalinar’s reaction. Actual destruction of a city, and the loss of livable protected land, might be awful enough.
Yay! I got goosebumps with the communication from Gawx to Dalinar. Lift is going to join Dalinar soon! I cannot wait to see how her and Shallan interact! Wyndle+Pattern will be fun too :)
Lecrakn @21
I am wondering if this could be the honorblade that Talenel’Elin, (Tain) had that Dalinar is referring to. Of course this may be speculation on my part. I think that Tain is Talenel’Elin and the blade that Dalinar bonded to him, the one Dalinar sent Amaram on that errand about was not the same blade that Talenel’Elin had when he was a Herald. I can’t quote chapter but I do know that somewhere the descriptions of those two blades are very different. Completely confused yet? Sorry. There is a lot of information on the stormlight archive wikia site if you dig around for it, or what you are looking for.
I love this! I hate this! It’s like the excitement of getting my hands on a new Sanderson book, reading the whole thing in one sitting, then realizing its over and now you have to wait on the next one. BUT, NOW ITS ON A WEEKLY BASIS!
P.S. Next week i’m going to just read little parts and stretch it out for a week…Storms! It’ll never happen!
The scene with Adolin and Gallant is close to being my favorite of Part One. I just love it so much…
As to the rest… now we’re getting into territory where beta readers clam up. This is a beautiful sight.
@67: Nope, I didn’t. I’m kind of new to commenting. Apologies, all. I’ll remember for next time, and not get caught up in the enthusiasm. It’s just so exciting to actually interact with you guys instead of reading everything hours, days, years later! I was going to put my foot in my mouth at some point, glad that’s out of the way.
So I was still holding out hope we wouldn’t get a Kal/Shallan/Adolin love triangle, but looks like it’s definitely happening now. However, if it did result in Kaladin and Shallan sleeping together, I really hope we get to read about it, because the thought of Syl and Pattern watching together (Syl shouting out random “advice” and Pattern asking questions the whole time about what they’re doing and why) is really cracking me up.
I’m also glad Kaladin isn’t trading infused spheres at a 1:2 ratio anymore, I was really getting concerned last week about that lol.
LOVED the Adolin chapter -I really like reading from Adolin’s point of view. I know he’s not really doing much, but he’s just such a genuine and honest person it’s refreshing to read his thoughts. I also love his relationship with Renarin. I really couldn’t have cared less about Renarin, but after reading this POV he’s actually grown on me.
And speaking of people I didn’t expect to grow on me, hello Elhokar! I actually think it’s a really good idea to make Dalinar a Highking -it also might make other kingdoms more comfortable with following him, rather than if he was leading them under Elhokar. Now, rather than joining together under Alekthar, they would all be joining together under an impartial ruler (well, obviously not totally, but better than before). Maybe Urithiru can become the official seat of the Radiants and they together can be who all the other kingdoms agree to follow.
I think I’m going to like this book’s flashbacks better than either of the other two. Young Dalinar is such a fascinating character. He goes from being hilarious to deadly to outright ruthless and it’s so chilling. The Blackthorn used to be portrayed as just a more aggressive, less introspective version of Daliar, but it’s clear now it’s so much more. I mean he possibly killed a child, and would let Sadeas rape women without even questioning it. In books you usually meet the rough character and watch them mature -it’s a bit jarring to get to know a kind, strong, and honest person and then learn about how they used to be pretty despicable.
One thing I found potentially curious: when Gavilar talks about needing to be more political, less like thugs, “Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?”
First I assumed he was referring to killing the boy -but it sounds like Gavilar already knows that was him. I thought he maybe let the boy go, and is feeling ashamed -but then I don’t know why he’d feel that way in response to Gavilar talking about being less ruthless. So is there something maybe more nefarious that he’s worried Gavilar might learn?
So, finally, all the suspicions re: Renarin’s spren and Radiancy are put to rest! And he uses his Regrowth surge, which, I suspect is going to be crucial for people’s ability to live in Urithiru in the long term – all these terasses need to be filled with growing edible plants, which is likely only possible with surge-binding. It id now obvious that he was deathly terrified of what was happening to him, both because he wasn’t entirely sure about the source of it in the beginning and visions of the future made him fear the worst and because even once he became convinced of his Radiancy, he still felt very unworthy of it and afraid of screwing up. The brotherly scene between him and Adolin is so touching! And it is indeed great that Adolin is 100% glad for and supportive of his brother, with not a whiff of jealousy.
Oh, and Adolin’s vision of a perfect version of himself is exactly the same thing that Shallan had done unconsciously and much more weakly to prop up her brothers against self-destruction and what she did consciously to that caravan guard and the robbers during her trek to the Shattered Plains, so Renarin apparently was using his Lightweaving too.
Poor Elhokar! He tried to step up, but Kaladin is heading straight for Kholinar anyway, so he’ll probably be the one to handle things there by himself. There is no time for him going back to Urithiru and bringing baggage along.
Oh, and BTW – most of the parshmen involved in the attack on the silo were in the Warform! That was a big surprise for me and might help our heroes, since the Warform isn’t one of the Odium-forms, IIRC. Of course, the parshmen may not feel inclined to feel charitable towards humans after how they have been treated, but at least they aren’t directly controlled. It seems that the few Stormforms among them are calling the shots, though. I wonder how it all works – the Listeners had distinct personalities that evolved with experience and they and accumulated skills partly remained in whatever non-Storm form they assumed. And even in Stormform, just locked out from decision-making. But the newly transformed parshmen are blank slates, so how does all the organization, etc, happen?
Anyway, it seems that Odium-side is ahead of Dalinar there – just in the last installement he saw how to protect Roshar through holding key realms and their Oath-gates and now they are making sure of pre-emptively preventing this strategy from succeding.
Dalinar was an awful person in his youth. No wonder that he tried hard to raise Adolin to be a different man _and_ he is also completely right when he says that Adolin indeed is a much better man than young him. Did he murder the kid and his mother? His shame would argue yes. And boy’s words are downright prophetic – as that’s exactly what Dalinar is trying to do now.
How is it that T. didn’t kill a Radiant who manifested in his kingdom? IIRC, the Diagram didn’t want them around. And yea, of course he is the only one offering to support Dalinar. To better eat you, my dear…
Derek @31
Best comment so far, Laughing like crazy!
@77 He feel ashamed about mercy because letting the heir live is a classic mistake of an evil overlord. He’s making Gavilar bear the blame for murdering the heir while increasing the risk that there will be trouble down the line. It’s the worst of both worlds: mercy’s risk with ruthlessness’ censure.
Anyone else see the parallel between how Dalinar got both his first set of shardplate and oathbringer, and how Gavilar died?
I found this line from King T to be interesting: “Her spren directed her to speak with me” Is T lying, or did a spren actual direct their radiant to speak with T and if so, why?
@18 I totally think Elhokar is going to attract a cryptic! His initial worries about assassinations are because he sees symbol-headed creatures in the mirror.
YES!! Lift is the best!
Here are my comments to the 3 chapters themselves. When I get time, I will try to comment on the comments themselves.
After only 10 chapters in OB, I am willing to categorically state that the author of the in world OB is not a spren.
If I were a KR, the last thing I would want is my spren to try to parent me. That would be enough to want me to break my Oaths.
Syl is becoming as inquisitive as Pattern. For the sake of Shallan and Kaladin, it is a good thing that neither Pattern or Syl have seen the Roshar version of the red light district. I almost laughed out loud when I red Kaladin’s thought about having sex and Syl shouting out encouragement and advice. There is a lot of potential for a skit of Pattern and Syl providing play-by-play and commentary on a porn video
Now we know why Brandon kept repeating that Adolin’s wrist still hurt: so Renarin could heal it with Stormlight. As with most things, it was so obvious in hindsight. By the way, I liked how as part of Renarin’s skill he can make someone see a different version of themselves. Sort of the opposite side of the coin to what Shallan can do to herself. At this point, it would seem that a Lightweaver’s use of Illumination affects the KR whereas the a Truthwatcher’s use of Illumination affects those who come in direct contact with the TW.
Interesting that as of 33 years from the current storyline, Sadeas was (in Dalinar’s opinion) trying to push Gavilar toward greater brutality. This coming from a man (Dalinar) who acknowledges that others see him as an army all to himself (re the quote one of his soldiers said in the first flashback chapter). Up until the very end of his life, Sadeas believed that Alethkar deserved “a king who is the strongest and most capable of leading” his nation into battle (quote from OB, Chapter 11). Dalinar believed this early in his life (he spoke this quote in fact). I think that Dalinar stopped believing this when he started reading the Way of Kings and having his vision. Again, I wonder if in his later life, Dalinar would have been more like Sadeas if Galivar had lived.
Once again, Brandon shows us that Dalinar is far from the honorable man he would become some 30 years later. Although I do agree with his decision to kill Tanalan’s heir. Like in the Godfather, not killing Vito came back to haunt the Don of Vito’s village years later. As despicable as it sounds, had Tanalan’s heir lived, he may have been a symbol of resistance against the Khalins. Same way that in the Hunger Games, Katnis became a symbol of the resistance to the Capital.
At this point in his life, Dalinar is starting to drink heavily (enough to be drunk when he should not be). I wonder if his increased drinking is because Navani chose Gavilar over Dalinar. Dalinar’s thought to himself (“A good battle in the day—then at night, a warm hearth, tired muscles, and a good vintage of wine.”) sums up Dalinar’s life philosophy pretty much at this stage of his life. Makes you wonder how the Blackthorn ever grew up and became a politician. I do not believe he would have been willing to be anything other than a fighter had Gavilar not died.
I wonder who Taravangian has who can work the Oathgate. Taravangian must be wanting the chance to kill Dalinar himself. Based on what we have seen before, we might not know Taravangian’s plan. But we do know that he should not be trusted.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@77 – that’s an interesting interpretation. He might just be letting people think he killed the child for now. At this point I’m of half a mind to find the Unfettered chapters and just read them since people keep making allusions to them (even without meaning to) and at this point I just want to know :)
@78 – oh, you’re right! Shallan and her portraits are a similar thing. I wonder if Renarin also takes ‘memories’ or if that is unique to Shallan because of her artistic abilities, which are then enhanced by her Radiant abilities. Or if Renarin has a photographic memory.
@78
Calling it now. The “Radiant” is Adro (his female assistant). And not a Radiant, hopefully obviously.
Hidden weapon – They have Szeth’s (Jezrien’s) honorblade which will make anyone Windrunner-like. Taln’s honorblade can be anywhere too, but it will not grant Gravitation surge.
Lisamarie @86 – Don’t do it. I promise you’ll wish you hadn’t.
justcanthelpmyself @@@@@ 65
I agree with you and the others. It makes sense that given his lack of concern for human life at that point in his life and being under the thrall of “The Thrill”, that he did butcher him. It would also be what would tip the scales for Kadash. Dalinar owned Kadash, right? If I remember correctly. What a wake-up call that would be!
I haven’t read the chapters yet, but I was just thinking how the internet is perfect for novel serialization, yet most online short fiction markets no longer do serializations. It’s a great way to use comment sections to bounce ideas off each other, and in short, it creates a book club atmosphere. I think Tor tried it a couple years ago with Michael Swanwick’s Mongolian Wizard collection, but does anyone know where any ongoing online novel serializations are? (besides OB at the moment)
No time to read all the comments, but I assume the wife of the guy Dalinar killed in the flashback ends up being his wife. Or is that too obvious?
Taravangian coming to Urithiu…that sounds dangerous. He’ll seem like a friend at first, but we all know it won’t end up.
Any chance there was a Voidbringer writing on the other side of the spanreed in Thaylen city?
Read it again. Fuck, I’ve done a complete 360. I now think Dailinar must have lost the Thrill and spared the wife and boy. Although feeling shame when G is talking about doing less mindless slaughtering doesn’t really add up.
Either way I now think this is setting the stage for when the kid grows up and kidnaps D’s wife.
Lot of comments already, of course! In general:
I am thoroughly amused with the banter between Kaladin and Syl. And I never thought about it, but it’s likely the spren would be right there when a Radiant is intimate. Ha! If two Radiants are intimate with each other, I wonder if the spren will make comments to one another during the… activities!
I really appreciate Brandon showing us the interaction between Renarin and Adolin. It makes sense that when Renarin was ready to show off some of his abilities, he would do it with Adolin before anyone else. Some good points made above about how Adolin would perceive/understand Renarin.
Elhokar does try. He just believes he can’t do things as well as those around him, which could be hard for someone who is supposed to be the most powerful person in their kingdom to stomach. This is why I don’t get why so many are hard on him. I’m glad he stood up to his uncle, and also found a purpose and a goal to work towards.
@9 – Re: pulse of Radiance – I agree, I think this is part of Renarin’s Illumination abilities. It is cool to compare/contrast with Shallan’s. Good comparison with the Mistborn metals, btw. As for different orders using Surges differently, I think you’re onto something. I’m curious to see Dalinar’s use of Adhesion (assuming we haven’t seen it already in Chapter 8.
@10, 12 and others re: Taravangian’s radiant – I am curious as well. Does he really have one or is he just telling Dalinar what he wishes to hear? If T has one, does the Radiant ignorant to T’s plans, or are they working with T? Can’t wait to find out more.
@15 – re: Szeth’s Blade – Dalinar mentions he has it in today’s chapters. @21 has the quote that alludes to it…
@17 – I think Dalinar did indeed give up being Highprince, and Adolin is the heir. As for Adolin’s progression in this story, I think it is moving along nicely at this point. He’s heading the investigation into his own crime, he’s reflecting on the loss of Sureblood and interacting with Gallant, he’s encouraging his brother to take a more active role as a Surgebinder and he is about to become the Highprince of Kholinar.
@20 – Re: Dalinar killing the heir – I also noticed that there is wiggle room for whether/not Dalinar actually killed the heir. He let Gavilar think he had, but Dalinar also dwells on the shame that he feels and not wanting Gavilar to find something out. Yet Gavilar already believes that Dalinar killed the heir, so what doesn’t he want him to know?
@22 and @28 Navani states, “You married Shshshsh for her Shardplate…” but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it was the Shardplate that he wears, right? In the beginning of WoK, the Kholins have 4 sets of Plate (Gavilar’s, Dalinar’s, Elhokar’s and Adolin’s) whereas in this flashback the Kholin’s only appear to have 2.
@34 – re: Kaladin/Elhokar roadtrip – Sign me up!
@35 & 38, well the flashback was 33 years ago, which was a little before Adolin’s time. That kid would be about 39 or 40 now, right?
Wow, now we’re up to 91 comments?!? I guess I’ll just stop at my comment at 39 for now…
Lisamarie @86 Was the bit about reading Unfettered also about my post, or just happened to be in the same paragraph? Because I don’t think I’ve read those chapters (I’ve actually got no idea what they are lol) so I don’t think I was alluding to them, not with any actual knowledge of them anyway.
Though it could be possible that the “beautiful woman” draped across Tanalan becomes Shshshsh, I think it highly unlikely considering:
1. Tanalan didn’t have shardplate
2. Dalinar killed her husband
3. Dalinar is perported to have killed her son
But it would be cool so see a story so convoluted that they do marry. Then if Dalinar did kill the kid (which I think he did) it would be the case that Dalinar murdered his sons’ half brother!
Upon further thought, I am thinking my mild disappointment is intentionally built within the story. I’ll admit I felt slightly sadden/annoyed Elhokar would be given what sounds like such a great character arc while Adolin is left to feed sugar cubes to Gallant, no matter how sweet this was.
I think I am getting the purpose now.
Everyone is moving on.
Renarin is growing. He IS a Truthwatcher. He HAS progressed far enough to unlock his Blade which means he HAD said oaths. He is finally opening up: how he just wants to belong and how hard it was, upon starting to feel like he was starting to belong, to have to go back down to step zero. He wanted to be a Shardbearer and accepting it wasn’t working out was difficult, but now he has. It was a great Renarin scene.
Elhokar is growing or he seems like he is growing. He is admitting he can’t be the one calling the shots and he is finally setting himself to DO something. He wants to learn from Kaladin: he views him as “the hero”. He bluntly tells Dalinar to stop telling him lies. It doesn’t matter where he is going, what matters is I, as a reader, feel he is going somewhere.
Dalinar is growing. He is trying harder at politics and he is attempting to unite the world.
Kaladin is growing. He has assumed his Radiancy. He is a spectacle to be seen, a hero to be worshiped. He took the lead and, for the first time in years, he smiled.
Shallan is probably growing too, but we haven’t seen much of her.
Everyone… they are just moving on and while they are moving on what is Adolin doing?
He is down there, with the horses, seeing and mourning the Rhysadiums everyone seems to have forgotten even existed. He is looking towards the past, towards what he has lost, towards what he has been perhaps? Everyone else is looking at the future or themselves.
Thus, it is normal, I as a reader, end up feeling so melancholic, sadden and slightly disappointed, it was a rather sad scene to read. I didn’t catch on the sadness of it upon my first read, but now I feel it.
Adolin, he is being left behind. Everyone is moving on, getting on to do exciting things, trying out their new powers while he has to deal with a murder he did and is left to choke on his own tears amidst the ghosts of those they have lost. My personal wish now is for Gallant to chose Adolin over Dalinar…
It was nice to see Kaladin happy for once. The idea of Syl in the bedroom making commentary is very funny. Interesting that the Parchman changed in to warform not storm form. It is nice to see that Kaladin is at least acknowledging (if only a little bit) his attraction to Shallan. However I REALLY hope they both see early on that Shalladin isn’t gonna serve either of them.
I loved the Adolin/Renarin scene. It is good to see the brothers loving and supporting one another as well as a pov showing Renarin as just not easily understood vs creepy. It is nice to finally have Adolin’s wrist healed I was getting sick of hearing about it. In regards to Adolin seeing himself “perfected” I thought that perhaps Renarin, as a truthwatcher, can help others see the “truth” of who they can be. Shallan is able to use lightweaving in conjunction with transformation to help transform others into who they want/need to be. However Renarin doesn’t transformation abilities so he uses the truths of a persons potential to help them see who they can become instead.
Of course Dalinar killed the boy. What is surprising (and yet seeing who Dalinar becomes it is not) that he even felt any grief about it. Remember this is a many who gets off on slaughtering hundreds of people, many of whom are innocent, so why would the innocence of a young child make a difference? Note: I am in no way saying I support his brutality. IMO this scene is a set up for a future event in regarding Shshshsh and this later event was so horrible Kadesh became an ardent.
How refreshing to see Elhokar finally stop whining and show some maturity and desire to change.It is fitting that Dalinar be separate from any established kingdom but this isn’t over yet. Dalinar will come to rue the day he gave control of Alethkar fully to Elhokar.
T has got his back…oh dear!!!! Dalinar please don’t give the honorblade to T. That would be horrible.
Other side thoughts:
I keep hoping to get to see Jasnah :(
In WoK and WoR Gavilar is viewed as a fabulous leader with tremendous political skill. I haven’t seen any of that so far in OB.The two don’t seem to go together as the same person. Perhaps in future chapters.
Um, everything that got whited out in my comment was speculation. The only spoilery thing I actually know is who Dalinar’s wife is, which I did not mention. Did I get something really right? And are there more spoilers somewhere? I haven’t read the Unfettered chapters.
I love it! Though I’m quite worried what taravangean has planned. I suspect he plans to send an army through the oathgate and take urithiru by force.
99 and others: Shallan has used Lightweaving similarly to how Renarin does here, on Bluth and the deserters. She drew pictures of them as their best selves to inspire them. Bluth’s worked so well he went from a slaver’s mercenary to dying a hero.
I think Dalinar is ashamed about his brutality, not about saving the child. It’s showing that even when he was a bloodthirsty warrior, he sometimes had to fight to keep the Thrill going – because he recognized that what he was doing was wrong. His drinking is a way to escape up the guilt.
@94: I might be alone in this, but I never liked the idea Adolin’s character progression might pass through him becoming the next Highprince. Call it personal preferences, because I do think they are, but I never really enjoyed the “king” or the “leader of people” tropes. I find them terribly restrictive and they tend to make characters evolving into them very boring, IMHO. As a Highprince, Adolin will basically be left with little opportunities in life other than just being “Highprince Adolin”.
I also always assumed Dalinar would disowned him.
Anyway, this is one story arc I am definitely not sold on nor warm towards. In fact, I really do not like it.
I can’t say Adolin’s story is picking up (nothing has happened yet with Sadeas nor the murder investigation: I dunno if I feel the calm before the tempest or if just nothing will come out of it), it feels like it is stalling, but as I said, maybe it is intentional within the text I should feel this way. To follow.
First thought that popped into mind: Adolin is going to become high prince if Dalinar becomes super high king. “I…” Elhokar swallowed. “He should give up his lands to his heir.” And Adolin is Dalinar’s heir. That’ll make things Interesting! It’s funny. Adolin spent so much time in the previous books dealing with this issue and coming to the terms that he’s not going to be high prince for a while and now … bam! I wonder how this’ll effect the … everything else. Would this make Adolin the Highprince of War?
Other thoughts: Kaladin, I’m not sure you should trust the light eyes. The guy could have stolen the food and claimed it was the parashman. After all people knew he was coming and what he was looking for. It would be easy enough to state such a thing. Also, you didn’t talk to any of the witnesses, I don’t think. Especially since they described the Parshman in warform which is what people would know they look like. Kaladin didn’t talk to any of the witnesses so he’s only getting third hand accounts, at best.
That being said, I could see the Parshendi raiding places for food, they do still have to eat after all.
Adolin – you poor boy. You miss your horse and you feel guilty about forgetting him. Remembering is good though. And remembering Gallant is also good. Renarin and his conversation feels like my conversations with my family sometimes. We’ll pick up conversation threads or just start them without any “previously on” to indicate what we’re talking about. Context? Who needs context?
The thing Renarin did. It kinda reminds me of the 11th? metal from Mistborn? I think. Where it showed two selves. He showed his brother who he could be. Which is also like what Shallan did/does with her drawings.
Adolin’s glee at seeing the blade was fun. It’s nice to see he’s happy for Renarin. He only wanted him to keep the other blade to protect him but since he’s got the other blade, all should be better. I wonder if Renarin will end up being the one who protects Adolin?
I refuse to believe that Dalinar killed the child until I see the body. Hurt him, yes. Kill, no.
Re: Dalinar marrying for plate even though he has some: it never hurts to have more shards in the family.
mhoff @99 I don’t think it’s so surprising he feels remorse for killing a child (if he even did it, which I still doubt). The bloodthirsty and violent reactions we see from him are when he’s caught up in the Thrill, and every time he’s been out of battle, while he’s still been more rash and violent than the present-day Dalinar, he’s been a lot calmer and forgiving. Like when he met Teleb during the first flashback -caught up in the Thrill, he might have relished killing him, but because he was out of battle, he was able to rationally decide that there was potential for this person to become his ally. Here, as well, once he’s got some time to come down from his battle high, I can definitely see him regretting the slaughter of an innocent child (even if it would have been necessary, to make sure he doesn’t come after them later).
@99 I had a similar thought about Renarin. It seems like Shallan transformed them into what She needed them to be by showing them a different way to see themselves, which had to be something they were willing to be, like soulcasting. Renarin showed Adolin a truth about himself while healing him…in a way that could potentially heal him and help him to have progress. Renarin’s was also interesting because it seemed to be more instinctive while Shallan’s seemed to be very active, I wonder if Renarin is aware of what he is doing.
I find it interesting how much mystery is being left with Renarin. We all got so excited when something small got revealed. It is a great mystery to have apparently as we are all so excited to speculate on it.
stegasauruss @@@@@ 77
updated comment at12:41 CDST
RE: The idea Adolin might bond with Gallant, I suppose it might happen but I really hope it doesn’t. It doesn’t feel very in character for what we’ve read of Ryshadium, that they would just switch owners, and it’s not like Dalinar doesn’t need Gallant anymore (he might be Radiant but he can’t fly or anything). I also just don’t really think it’ll do anything to drive the story forward.
I doubt there is a precedent for something like this to come about, but the fact that it was mentioned that Dalinar didn’t have time or wasn’t taking the time to be with Gallant, make me wonder. Could just be a statement to drive the scene along. So next thought is what happens if the rider is killed in battle, is the Ryshadium literally put out to pasture? Hmm, I bet the answer is somewhere that I have simply not read or perhaps it didn’t register at the time I read it.
At first it seemed really distracting to get the information differently than readers usually do, but now a couple of books into the series, I really like it. It also gives a different frame of reference as to how he has changed from someone who loved “The Thrill” to someone who;while he has been overcome by it in battle when fighting the Parshendi, he also gets past it and is almost abhorred by those feelings he once relished as a young man. It is an interesting way of viewing a character in a book. Psychologically it has interesting points where forgiving a person’s actions comes into play, don’t you think?
Gepeto @@@@@98
“Adolin, he is being left behind. Everyone is moving on, getting on to do exciting things, trying out their new powers while he has to deal with a murder he did and is left to choke on his own tears amidst the ghosts of those they have lost. My personal wish now is for Gallant to chose Adolin over Dalinar…”. I think this is supposed to be where he does go within the story line; at least I hope so. It isn’t unreasonable that Adolin would feel a sense of loss because of losing his Rhysadium. I can see this as a time for Adolin and Gallant to bond and for Adolin to mourn the loss of Trueblood.
I think Adolin is just in the writer’s waiting room, so to speak. :)
Since the Rhysadium choose their riders, not the other way around, I can see this as a necessary step in the story line.
“Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?”
Hmm. When Dalinar commits to something, he commits everything he has to it. So, what if he let the son go and ten or twelve years later the child reared his head.
Since the flashback was 33 years ago, and Adolin is 23 right now and remembers Kadash as a soldier in WOK. So, the wife dying is recent. Maybe 12 or 14 years ago.
Anyway. Even if the young heir was left alive (which I am not sure about) he probably had a hand in the revolt against Gavilar. The child beheld his father’s killer come for death, he watched his father nearly die, his mother crying over her husband, and probably all the facts associated with who Dalinar and Gavilar were. Usurpers. Butchers.
Then, the suggestion Dalinar offered for the men of Rift acting as troops, destroying the child’s home.
No wonder he would grow up to hate the Kholin brothers.
And even if it wasn’t the child, the rebellion could be any brightlord who lost his family or even anyone else who went through the rampant destruction Dalinar caused in Rift and the enslaving that maybe happened afterward at the recruitment.
Hatred simmering in the minds of the people. Young. Old… for perhaps a decade and the foe that stole everything from them….
Navani mentions in WOR that everybody could see that Dalinar loved his wife. She implied that the woman wasn’t fiery but the exact wife he needed at the time. Not in so many words, I think. No offence, please.
We don’t know the act that broke Dalinar but maybe it was his wife’s death that broke him. That drove him to drinking extremely deeply-as he was drunk when Gavilar was killed-and Jasnah (in her viewpoint of the murder) thought that it was a normal occurrence.
Maybe forgetting Shshsh death was a boon and we haven’t seen the curse yet.
‘That one gets to me, because there are parts of that day I know I should remember. Something about a city in rebellion against my brother, and my wife being taken hostage?
That… and a long march alone, accompanied only by hatred and the Thrill. He remembered those emotions vividly. He’d brought vengeance to those who had taken his wife from him.’
Long March alone, accompanied only by hatred and the Thrill.
Theory:
– maybe the hatred was for the one he saved and the one who later betrayed him by taking his wife hostage.
– Maybe Dalinar went so deep in his thrill that he killed everyone in the City; child, woman, man. Maybe the rebellion killed his wife or asked for his death and then killed her in front of him. And that broke him, letting the Thrill get ahold of him and submerging him so deep that he had no emotions except the pleasure of the kills. And when he found out what he had done he went to the nightwatcher for a boon.
– or maybe, marched to finish the rebellion and they took his wife hostage and demanded his head. Being politically savvy, Gavilar probably thought that wasn’t wise and Dalinar was stopped from going by force if necessary.
The Rebels killed the woman, which gave birth to Dalinar’s hatred and when he reached the city only with his men, and lay waste to it, Kadash defected.
Who knows?
– Regrowth. Ooh. Renarin finally showed his new powers and healed his brothers hand. That was a beautiful scene.
– Dalinar as High King of the Shattered Plains. Which means that we’re going to see a horrified Adolin. He hated his father defecting when he was having visions and really didn’t want to be High prince. Now he would have no choice and he’s a great guy but maybe it would be a bit too much strain for him…
But what if he really adapted into that role and then lost something or someone or something really bad happened to him… or maybe his secret is found out and I just can’t speculate too much. I really adore him. Damn. I really want him to be a Radiant.
– Elhokar. He finally stood up for himself. Yippee. Now I just want to see where it will lead him. A trip to Kholinar with Kaladin. And finding out his wife was maybe the cause of the riots… I really want to seems his reaction.
– Taravangian. I think Navani will realise what Taravangian is upto or maybe shallan will by going through the meetings of the the Ghost bloods. Maybe the king of Jah Keved will learn what, having the storm father as spren, entails.
Or maybe one of the Radiants will be attacked. Hmm…
Or Dalinar will take action after he has been bitten. Maybe Renarin will show his truthwatcher powers by asking his father not to trust the king when he seems so nice and warm with open arms.
This was an interesting chapter. The Kaladin parts were great. Those Parshmen still need to eat to live, so the food had to be stolen from a bigger town that could probably afford the loss of grain. But then why steal the ships from thaylenah. Probably because they are needed in Alethkar and since the high storm isn’t coming, traveling would actually be easy. Maybe the Parshmen would collect into a nation and call for rights, which would be a tough pill to swallow for all the world. Maybe that would call for eshonai’s book.
Or maybe they have nefarious reasons to cluster and voice their collective hatred for the people who enslaved them for a millennium.
Those are my few thoughts. Sadly, I have the superpower to overthink at most times.
‘Till next Tuesday. *tips illusionary hat*
Bye.
@105 they mentioned red lights and warform. Who there was likely to know about warform. Most everybody who knows what the parshendi looked like were in the shattered plains. Not saying it’s impossible. There were problems with all of the parshendi being in stormform, their attacks weren’t always super effective because of how electricity works. Perhaps they need some of the parshendi to be in war-form. Perhaps the everstorm gives them random spren. We know they don’t give any spren to parshendi who already have spren otherwise our friend from bridge four would have transformed in the everstorm’s begining.
I’m getting more curious about the Thrill after these chapters. What, exactly, is it? Where does it come from (or more to the point WHO does it come from?). It’s definitely more than just a thrill of battle (lowercase “t”); it does seem to be an actual force that if not heals at least temporarily blocks pain and augments natural abilities, kind of like investing stormlight. Could the Thrill come from Odium? It does seem to only affect warriors in battle. As Dalinar became more aligned to the Stormfather and the KR, the Thrill left him and he felt the horror and sickness at all the killing. Perhaps Odium’s Champion runs entirely on the Thrill.
‘…at least he would have King Taravangian by his side.”
Omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
Spiritwalker51 @90 – Dalinar owns Kadash now, as an ardent. During the time of these flashbacks, when Kadash was a soldier, he was a free man; soldiers aren’t property in Alethkar.
sistertotherain @100 – Information gained from or triggered by watching a youtube reading of a flashback is just as much a spoiler as information gained from or triggered by reading The Thrill.
Also, congrats on the first hunny of the day. :D
Gepeto @several – Since most of your disappointment seems to be based on what you assume will be Adolin’s arc based on these few chapters, maybe you should wait until you read more of the book before feeling so let down. In a book with this many characters, good storytelling requires that not everyone be “moving forward” all the time, or each arc gets lost in the others and it’s just a muddle.
@51 and @109 – There is nothing in TWoK or WoR to give credence to the claim that Adolin remembers Kadash as a soldier. Certainly he knows that Kadash was a soldier – the scars provide evidence of that, and there’s no reason it wouldn’t be common knowledge. While I’m not saying it’s impossible for Adolin to remember that time, there’s no proof that he does.
vandaralden @110 – No one in the village except Kaladin used the term “warform” – he merely recognized their descriptions as being like the Parshendi he’d seen on the Shattered Plains.
Elhokar seems to have grown a lot in a few weeks. I hope this will prevent him from slipping toward the side of Odium. It would be refreshing (from a character growth development) to see Elhokar be a much better king than we have seen him be.
Lisamarie @9. The text is quite clear that Syl does not trust Adolin because he uses a Shardblade (i.e. he swings one of Sly’s dead sisters by the feet). I agree with you Lisamarie. Sometimes I can live or take Syl’s humor. Her analogy of a Sharblade as a dead sister was funny, however (even if she did not intend it to be funny). Also, I think it says a lot of her distaste of Shardblades that she prefers the person with a Cryptic as a spren rather than the holder of a dead Shardblade. If, on the other hand, Adolin is able to somehow revive the spren who inhibits his dead Shardblade, I believe Syl will do a 180 on her opinion of Adolin.
I also agree with your initial thoughts about how Lightweavers and Truthweavers use Illumination differently (see @85 above).
Gepeto @17. I agree with you about the attack. Further, I think the text implies that Kaladin thinks the attack of the Voidbringers described to him in Chapter 10 is done by men disguised as Voidbringers. I wonder if that is the work of one of the secret societies. Possibly Taravangian and the Diagramists?
Where in the text do you get the impression that “Kaladin really likes Shallan?” I did not read that from WoR and the released OB chapters (including Chapter 10)
Jeremy @30. I had the same thought when I first read that seen. Maybe the women draped over Tanalan was Shshsh who Dalinar would then marry for political reasons. But after some further reflection, I think that this is not the case. I do not think Shshsh is not the same woman as we saw in Chapter 10.
Lisamarie @33. For some reason I do not think this is the event at the Rift that caused Kadash to become an Ardent. I think the event that Kadash refers to comes later in time. I got the impression that at the time it happened Dalinar was already married (as it had to do with the kidnapping of his wife) and that Dalinar’s sons had been born. But I could be wrong. We will just have to RAFO.
Gepeto @53. What in Chapter 10 allows you to state for certain that Renarin does not know that Adolin murdered Sadeas. I will admit that I think Renarin does. But if I turn out to be wrong, then so be it. I do not see anything in the Adolin/Renarin scene that would rule that out as a possibility. Renarin could know but still love and respect Adolin just the same.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
If the parshmen are changing into warform or other intelligent non-voidforms, how angry are they going to be that humans have kept them enslaved for centuries? I’m curious to see if they transform into some forms we haven’t seen before. It seems odd that some of them would know how to sail ships. I don’t believe we’ve seen sea-faring Parshendi. Whatever form they are taking, the possibilities of their interactions with humans seem far more interesting than if they were simply transformed into wild violent killing machines, as everyone has expected.
“Being noted in their offi ial records is a great honor to the Azish,” Teshav said, “so they’ve paid you a compliment.”
I hope the missing “c” in “official” is an error in this digital version and not something that accidentally makes it into the print version.
On Adolin being Highprince: Am I the only one who is somewhat troubled by the fact Dalinar never seem to think it may be too much for his son? He has to train the armies for four princedoms, he has to investigate the murder cases and now he is to become Highprince? And what is Dalinar doing? Oh yeah, talking through spanreeds… Took him an hour from his day.
And now he is Highprince, Adolin will have to marry. Delays will not be tolerated. He can’t be the Highprince without a wife. I suspect they will marry him to Aladar’s daughter who keeps on being mentioned. Why not Shallan? Because I don’t believe these two will be a ship anymore: I want them to, but the story is really hinting towards Kaladin/Shallan and Adolin within a loveless marriage.
On Adolin being stuck into the Writer’s Waiting Room: Yeah. Definitely.
On Gallant: Rhysadiums choose their riders. Can they change their mind and choose another one? Sprens also choose their bearers. Am the only one who noticed Adolin thinking about it? And the unsaid thought implying his Blade did not choose him? What will he do with Renarin’s Blade?
ParnassusReads @111
“The Thrill” comes from Odium. I see it as a power of destruction that affects the mind, and enthralls the person who is experiencing it so that they want to kill.
From what I have read, it appears that people are affected by the thrill when they are in a certain proximity to Nergaoul. Nergaoul is an unmade and a splinter of Odium, so it appears that directly, or indirectly it does originate because of Odium.
Source:http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Nergaoul
While looking around at the wikia, I also looked up the thrill. It appears that there are two known thrills, the Thrill of Contest and the Thrill of Battle. It makes me wonder how many more there might be?
Source: http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/The_Thrill
Wetlandrnw @113
Alice, thanks for pointing that out. I was thinking of it out of sequence. It can be a challenge!
On thinking on that fact, it certainly puts a different spin on Kadash’ choice to become an ardent. Wow, I would not want to be owned by someone who was capable of being utterly bloodthirsty.
spiritwalker51 @108 No, I totally agree. I like the fact that those chapters make me uncomfortable, and that you meet the hero and then learn about the sortof-villain he once was. I was just pointing out it’s an uncommon way of storytelling, but I actually like that about it. I also really like that The Blackthorn was genuinely a bad guy, not just given one or two easily forgiven bad qualities for the sake of drama (which I think a lot of other authors might have done, for such a popular character). It makes me really think about redemption and forgiveness, and also gives me a lot of respect for his character changing himself so completely (and further drives home how irredeemable Sadeas was, that even after all those years he was still nostalgic for when he and Dalinar were these horrible, cruel people).
RE: The idea Adolin might bond with Gallant, I suppose it might happen but I really hope it doesn’t. It doesn’t feel very in character for what we’ve read of Ryshadium, that they would just switch owners, and it’s not like Dalinar doesn’t need Gallant anymore (he might be Radiant but he can’t fly or anything). I also just don’t really think it’ll do anything to drive the story forward.
@113 Right, I looked at what I said and realized I had started to make a point but didn’t finish articulating it completely. What I mean is that they mentioned the red lights and described warform. The rest of my point still stands. Who would know to describe them as such?
Adolin is carrying an Edgedancer Blade. The Edgedancer’s 1st unique Oath is I will remember those that have been forgotten. Adolin speaks to his dead blade as if it lives. Adolin speaks to Gallant, taking the time to remember the being that Dalinar seems to have forgotten about. Edgedancers were described as articulate and refined. Adolin speaks eloquently and has a markedly refined fashion sense. He even fights with grace on the battlefield. I can see Adolin as taking an unorthodox path to the Edgedancer Order. If that’s the case (and I could just be blowing smoke) then will he wake his dead blade or be forced to break his bond with her to form a new one with a different Cultivationspren? Is it possible for one KR to have 2 spren if they are of the same order? Can a live spren and a dead spren merge?
Gepeto @117 In WoK, Dalinar was about ready to abdicate, and IIRC, had talked about it to Adolin as well. So even if his thoughts never went to Adolin in that moment, I don’t think it was because he neglected Adolin, but rather was already confident that he’d be ready to take over in his father’s shoes. I’m sure Adolin will have some issues adjusting, but I don’t think Dalinar was necessarily making the decision without any consideration for his son. I also don’t think he’d be a bad highprince. Sure, he’s got a lot on his plate, but he’s been getting groomed for this for quite some time now.
Also, the idea of Adolin getting married off immediately to Aladar’s daughter seems to be jumping to a lot of conclusions. There’s no law that highprinces need to be married -Sebarial has a mistress, and Dalinar was single for a long time before he got married. And even if they did push him to marry, it would be a bit odd for them to just ignore Shallan and move ahead to Aladar’s daughter. If Brandon really has decided it’s going to end up Shallan/Kaladin, I would imagine there’d be a lot more build up to that moment.
“ ‘There were some scuffles,’ ” Fen wrote, “ ‘but most everyone was too busy dealing with the eff cts of the storm.
missing “e” in “effects”
“ ‘Your Majesty,’ ” Kalami read from the page, “ ‘I consider your off r generous, and your advice wise.
missing “e” in “offer”
Again, I hope that neither of those make it into print.
Any chance that Jasnah is the Radiant that stepped up in Jah Keved?
@118 Thanks for that info. Fairly new to the Cosmere, though I did read the Mistborn trilogy several years ago. I just recently rushed through both WoK and WoR and am eagerly anticipating Oathbringer, but haven’t spent much time on the Wiki. Maybe the different Thrills are aspects of the different unmades? So, similar to the surgebinding powers of the different radiant orders, the thrills are the different powers of the unmades. Arg, I know there has been discussion of spren and unmades elsewhere, but I don’t remember how they do/might interact. Need to get off forum at work! FML.
Some other thoughts:
Jasnah being the author of “Oathbringer” book would also fit her being on the cover. And is the city wall she stands on/ hovers over Kholinar? Which is about to be attacked, as we now know. I don’t remember where she appeared in the end of WoR, but IIRC it was still in Alethkar. And judging by Kaladin, it wouldn’t be impossible for her to find stormlight to get somewhere else, once she reaches a village.
Dalinar started to change for the better long before Gavilar’s death, even though that event accelerated the process. Adolin has been accompanying his father to war since before he was an adult, yet his worship of the Blackthorn suggests that he never saw the brutal Thrill-addict of Dalinar’s youth, just a great warrior.
And yes, I do think that Dalinar killed the boy – didn’t he order the hostage-taking of non-combatants in the previous flashback? Even some of his elites were uncomfortable with that. Not to mention that he was A-OK with Sadeas raping captive women. Speaking of whom – Sadees the Sunmaker? Is he supposed to be the founder of Sadeas’s family? Some kind of illustrous forbear? Sadeas sure wanted his blade badly…
And were is Nale? Shouldn’t he, like, warn Dalinar what he is up against and that no Heraldic help is forthcoming, now that Lift has set him straight? In fact, I am a bit surprised that nobody is asking where the Heralds are or using the fact of their absence to try to discredit Dalinar’s claims about the impending Desolation.
Well, for those of us who have missed Jasnah, at least she does get a brief, indirect mention when Dalinar think sabout how Gavilar and Navani have a little girl now ;)
vandaralden @120 –
Presumably, anyone who saw them – and there were five eyewitnesses to provide said description. It’s only a problem if you assume that there actually weren’t any observers and everyone here is lying.
@several – Virtually every typo that consists of a missing letter – especially if it’s next to an “f” and/or has an odd space next to it in the word – is an artifact of copying the text to the website.
ParnassusReads @125. Glad to be able to help. I am just trying to figure stuff out and scrambling to try to understand TWoK and WoR before Oathbringer comes out in November. I live at the stormlight archive wikia right now and joined the 17th Shard site a couple days ago. Just joined Coppermind dot net but it looks really complex compared to stuff I have done. Not been much of a forum kind of person so it pretty new to me as well. I had Warbreaker first, then TWoK then WoR, but did not realize until I joined here a little over a month ago, wow, that all most of Brandon’s books are in a specific realm called the Cosmere and that are interrelated. Have listened to then all on audiobooks, including Mistborn and two of the Reckoner series (which are not in the Cosmere). I have Arcanum Unbounded: The Cosmere Collection and Elantris: Tenth Anniversary Special Edition, as well, so I am really in a spin! There is so much to try to take in and grasp, process and then try to determine where the story is going. I love it.
I have been setting practically non stop since around 0500 this morning, here more than doing anything else. I have to get a workout in!
I was surprised to read that Syl needs to squeeze under a door to get into a closed room. I’ve always assumed that physical matter is no barrier for a spren, but I guess they have some physical form even when they are invisible to everyone. Now that I think about it, Syl can touch Kaladin and carry a leaf for miles, and Pattern can pick a lock and ride on Shallan’s skirt, so I guess it makes sense they are semi-physical.
@129 @Spiritwalker51
Reckoners is not Cosmere. Any book that contains any version of earth, fictional, past, or future is not Cosmere, because having Earth involved brings a ton of baggage that Brandon did not want to deal with.
Several have mentioned wanting to see Jasnah. My guess is she pops back into the story through an oathgate that she activates at an opportune moment
Shallan did something similar to Renarin when she drew people in an idealized way to give them confidence. Renarin simply skips the art bit and directly uses illusion.
On the last thread someone said that Transformation is Shallan’s minor Surge, but she just uses it differently than Jasnah: transforming people (like the deserters turned into loyal soldiers) instead of soulcasting.
If Elhokar takes the Honorblade, he can fly, too.
The text explicitly says that Dalinar did kill the boy.
Shards are very valuable. Why shouldn’t Dalinar want more even if he already has his own set? He might have done the same as Adolin with his duels, winning Shards for the kingdom.
Taravangian is probably twisting talking to Jasnah to make it sound like she is on his side, and doesn’t really have a Radiant.
Why should stormform be the only Odium form? It is likely that the parshmen transform into many different evil forms. Some might look like warform, while others can pretend to negotiate with the Azish. Venli might have used the evil version of scholarform before instead of stormform.
@57 & 59 – I like the whole Elhokar/Kaladin/Adolin/Eshonai grouping to address the Kholinar issue. I hope Jasnah meets up with them there, as well.
@77 – Re: love triangle – I say that you should still hold out that hope! Brandon may be teasing the reader with the possibility, but then pivot and remove one third of the triangle off of the table for a while (could be Kaladin, could be Adolin, who knows). And although it could be potentially funny to get the spren commentary, I doubt Brandon would write a sex scene; we’d likely read about the spren’s observations after the fact.
@78 – Re: Renarin – I’m pretty sure I was one of the more persistent skeptics regarding Renarin’s Radiancy, but it was (mostly) due to a lack of onscreen evidence to support Renarin’s claim. Anyway, believe it or not, I enjoyed reading this segment very much! Something still seems a bit… off regarding Renarin’s Radiancy, but there is no doubt that he has what appears to be a Shardblade, Illumination and Regrowth powers.
@98 – Re: Adolin – I disagree; Adolin is progressing through this story in his own way. His interaction with Gallant and Renarin here shows that, as does the way in which he must deal with the aftermath of his actions in WoR. Arguably, Shallan and Elhokar have been given less (onscreen) progression then Adolin, although Elhokar’s story seems like it is picking up in very interesting ways. How you choose to respond to Adolin’s story and progression is up to you, of course. I personally am excited to see where Adolin goes from here.
@104 – Re: Adolin again – I respect that you might not appreciate the arc or arcs of Adolin’s progression, but that doesn’t negate the fact that his story is progressing. Also, Adolin was placed in charge of the murder investigation in Chapter 9; it is only fair to give it sometime. In comparison, the reader had to wait 7 chapters for Shallan to even say a word and Elhokar’s two attempts at standing up to his uncle (and his 2 only appearances so far) happened 8 chapters apart. Honestly, I think that Shallan’s fans would probably have the strongest argument for complaining about lack of story-time and character progression here (not to mention, us Jasnah fans!)
Also, what @113 said
@124 – Re: Jasnah being Taravangian’s Radiant – I initially considered that as a funny possibility, but Jasnah and Taravangian know each other and T would likely have referred to her by name in the span reed conversation. Also, I think Jasnah appeared somewhere in Alethkar at the end of WoR.
Caleb @132 hahaha I can definitely see that -Everyone is just frantic and panicking trying to figure out how to get to Kholinar, and then she just waltzes in from that oathgate and starts giving orders
@113: I revised my thoughts within post @98. My first post were my impressions right after reading the chapters. I do agree it is way too early to say a story is disappointing. I might have ill-chose the word, but I am not entirely comfortable with how everything is unfolding right now. As I said, it may be intentional I am feeling this way. but still it is odd. I just wish Dalinar could stop on focusing on Elhokar and Renarin so much… I am so tired of hearing it is because Adolin is so strong, so perfect, so unbreakable nobody needs to look twice at him: it feels wrong. It is really starting to itch me. To follow.
@122: Adolin always been asked to fulfill more and more responsibilities without it ever impacting his character is slowly turning into my major point of co-tension within the story. I don’t care how well brought up he was nor how prepare Dalinar thinks he is: Adolin as Highprince just doesn’t read right to me. Nobody ever acknowledging Adolin exists is also starting to bother me, greatly, especially Dalinar.
@70 Interesting thought about the Shardplate of the Radiants. The visions showed them in glowing armor, I think, but none of the currently in-use Shardplates do that, indicating that they are also dead spren. It would make sense that the Shardplate spren would be akin to or come from the bonded/blade spren. I wonder if further oaths need to be spoken to create (call into being?) full KR Shardplate which would be living spren and therefore…um, radiant.
Can we call them sprenlings?
I am mirroring a lot of opinions and comments, but I don’t care. So many emotions!
So good and sweet to see Kaladin happy and smiling. It WAS hilarious him imagining Syl cheerleading, poor darling. And I don’t believe I have seen anyone already mentioning it, but – Sylblade!!! My word of the week :)
I totally loved the scene between Adolin and Renarin AND Gallant. So sweet to see the brothers so close and Adolin happy about Renarin. It was so odd for me to find a slight personal connection with both as I have had trouble throwing away broken things for fear I might hurt théir feelings after they have given everything of them (everything has a spren?), and peple have said they have difficulty following my thoughts as they seem to jump from one idea to the next sometimes (though it has happened less and less, so may-be I’m not as quick any more as I used to be). Nothing meaningful there, just seemed strange that I felt this way while reading. But I think it might be significant Adolin is thinking about talking to his Blade. I hope everything goes well for him and he won’t end up in a really dark place.
That section really poked my curiosity about Rosharan horses, too. “So alien. Creatures all covered in hair—which made him shiver to touch“. They really aren’t of Rosharan origin, are they? (And I apologize if this has been answered somewhere or stated, even if I have come across it mentioned somewhere, I do not remember). And the Ryshadiums have stone hooves?
I knew Dalinar was not a nice guy in his youth, but to read him about killing the boy … ugh. Seems impossible to equate with the man he is now. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the boy did live, although seems unlikely. The thought of him being secretly Adolin crossed my mind, as well, but then did some math and as pointed out by others, the ages don’t match.
The “secret weapon” Dalinar was thinking about is most certainly the Windrunners’ honorblade.
I was really pleased (and a bit surprised) to see Elhokar man up like this. Him and Kaladin going to Kholinar? Yay!
I really wonder what is going on with the Parshendi/Voidbringers, what are they preparing for on such a large scale? This thing stinks worse than fish left out for a week.
And regarding Taravangian, the moment I read about him coming so enthusiastically to Dalinar’s help, I thought F***. This is going to be BAD. And I’m not sure he has a true “Radiant”, either, for all we know, he could have just lied, or, if he opens the Oathgate, it might be one of the honorblades missing as suggested (sorry again for not referencing the comment, it got a bit dizzying by the time I got to around 80 and it is 1.30 am here …)
The interaction between Adolin and Renarin was the highlight of these chapters for me. Are there WoB that say whether normal horses are not originally from Roshar? Renarin’s insights are really fascinating. He is slowly becoming one of the most interesting characters. I enjoy the way Sanderson is bringing Renarin into the main cast.
I always enjoy listening to Syl and Kaladin shoot the breeze. Such a unique working relationship the radiant and spren have. I hope that Elhokar and Kaladin have a symbiotic relationship. They can bounce ideas off each other about leadership and I think Kaladin could learn a few things from the King about life in general.
Would Dalinar be able to hide the fact that he spared the boy in the Rift? I feel like he probably did kill the boy along with the father. The shame he feels afterward is perplexing. Perhaps he was ashamed with the brutality of it.
I love this book series. Thanks for putting these chapters out early.
I believe what Adolin saw was how Renarin sees him. Renarin has a power that we don’t know enough about yet. Something tells me it’s going to be one the more subtly powerful. I haven’t given up hope on Adolin but I don’t think that whatever redeems his murder is going to be painless for anyone.
My thought when Dalinar was talking to Azir was that he should make like Jon Snow and just go there but I’m sure there are reasons why he can’t.
Elhokar is going to have a rude awakening about the little misses. I am not convinced he’s going anywhere with Kaladin. If Dalinar is giving his lands to his heir doesn’t it make sense that Adolin would go and then Renarin would tag along being the Radiant that’s needed?
Taravangean? Hmmmm.
I love Adolin. I have thoughts about the part where Renarin healed him and Adolin saw himself as “A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.”
First off, Adolin’s thing is dueling. I see that as being about competing, testing and proving yourself and ultimately making yourself better – basically self improvement through swordplay.
So when Adolin sees himself as not being whole, it doesn’t mean he thinks he’s broken, just that he could be better than he is – the vision has given him something to strive for, that idealised self.
Adolin is also a follower, he’s brave but he’s obedient. Adolin’s a guy that loves his family and does his best to please them, and especially his father. If Dalinar was still the old Dalinar then I think Adolin would follow in his father’s footsteps. He did spend a good part of book 1 wanting his father to return to the Blackthorn (even though he couldn’t really have known what that would entail).
Adolin genuinely believes his father is doing the right thing now, but he didn’t at first and he still obeyed, and it nearly broke him when he finally confronted his father about it, but he did eventually – when he thought that Dalinar was senile and going to destroy their house.
In the last book Dalinar told Adolin that he’d been a good man from the start, and when Adolin murdered Sadeas he said “My father thinks I’m a good man, unfortunately for you he’s wrong.” I don’t think that was a throwaway, I think Adolin genuinely believes that he isn’t a good person – he murders Sadeas to protect his family, but he knows it’s wrong.
Maybe Adolin is more like Dalinar than I used to think. Dalinar uses the codes as a chain to bind himself, maybe Adolin obeys his father partly because he sees him as a good man and Adolin doesn’t trust himself to know what’s right, or follow through with it when he does.
@31 LMAO!
I’m wondering, since Kaladin is already on his way to Kholinar, if he’ll end up opening the oathgate on his own and leaving Elhokar with all his plans of leading a raiding party unfulfilled?
During my last re-read of WoR last month, I found a growing affection for Elhokar (whom I used to call “El-hokey-doke” because it was the only way I could remember his name). Now in Chapter 12 that affection has really expanded – such humility, even if it does vascillate. My heart just goes out to the lad; I suspect we all see trouble and pain ahead for him, and I really hope he comes out of it OK.
It’s from Gavilar that we hear that Dalinar killed the heir. The following makes me wonder if he didn’t.
“Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?”
Did he let the kid live and lie about it? Could that be what he is worried Gavilar found out or was it just the fact that he was ashamed of his actions… I wonder…
-Ryan
JDD @131
Oh my goodness! I didn’t recall that but the updated city names should have tipped me. Thanks!
I just loved this phrase: Plausible impossibility. I think I need it on a T-shirt.
The love and caring between Adolin and Renarin is obvious. I really thought for a minute that Adolin was going to say he would remember the forgotten. He seemed just on the edge of that.
So the whole wrist thing was build up to Renarin using healing. And illumination, showing Adolin what he could be. So yes, Adolin murdered Sadeus, but that was passion not pre-meditation so I don’t see him as a bad man because of it. So what is wrong with him that he isn’t “what he could be”? Is it just that he is too easy going and not more driven?
The Blackthorn was a disgusting man and he totally killed the child. I agree with @69 Tladz, this sets up the kidnapping and revenge that happens at the Rift.
I’m sort of giving up on Shallan and Adolin. Kaladin is the hero and he is already tending towards her. It just seems the way things will go.
Taravangian showing up is bad, bad, bad. I worry that more murder is about to happen.
Wow so many comments already. Most of what I feel have already been discussed so I’ll make mine short and sweet.
Kaladin and Syl talking about sex, that’s hilarious. And that conversation brings me back a thought about Tara (unsure if I have the name right) who was supposed to be Kaladin’s girlfriend while he was a soldier. Based on Kaladin and Syl’s discussion, I suspect that Tara is holding Kaladin’s V card. It does not mean anything as it stands alone but will mean something if the Kaladin/Shallan/ Adolin triangle pushes through.
Now my favorite scene – Renarin and Adolin. OMG I thought I cannot love Adolin more, but he does it again! I fell in love with him all over again and this time it was more than it was in ther first two books and we are only in Chapter 10.
i won’t speculate where Adolin is going. The book is written. I am just so happy when Adolin gets screentime. He has more screentime than originally promised and for that I am so thankful. Thank you Brandon.
I love Renarin. I HOPE with everything in me, that Adolin saying,
“This is good,” Adolin said to him. “You’re not going to hurt anyone. You’re here to save us.”
isn’t some sort of dubious foreshadowing… I really hope we get a Renarin POV in this book! I felt like he knew about Adolin killing Sadeas, and that’s why he showed him that image of who he could be, if he stayed with the “light.” Or maybe it was just an accident haha
ALSO very curious about what Dalinar doesn’t want his brother to find out….I NEED ANSWERS
I think the freed Parshmen haven’t been transformed (or maybe they have) and are seeking any means to escape Odium/ Roshar/ the current lands because they despise being Odium’s “slaves” as hinted at during the Eshonai prologue. I also think Dalinar is supposed to Unite humanity and the “void bringers’ to fight some other type of enemy that is the true enemy.
@69 VladZ. I thing Taravangian’s Radiant is definitely Jasnah. Wit always seems to know more than he lets on and I can see him taking Jasnah to Taravangian so that she can discover for herself what he is up to. Heaven forbid that Wit would ever actually come right out and say what people need to know. Wit would expect Jasnah to quickly see the truth about King T but I can see her missing it because she sees the King as well meaning, but a bit of a dullard.
FarDareisMaiGrandma @150 I also thought it could be Jasnah at first (maybe I’m just too excited to see her again) but that would’ve been really weird of him not to say who it was, as he knows Dalinar is Jasnah’s uncle. Unless she told him not to say, or is in disguise maybe?
@122: More on Adolin getting married… I suspect the pressure will be on for him to marry. I also think Brandon has hinted too heavily for Kaladin/Shallan for them not to become the major young ship. The reason I married him off to Aladar’s daughter is because there has to be a reason why she keeps being mentioned. If it isn’t to serve as one of “Adolin’s girlfriend”, then what is her purpose?
@134: I recall you were an ardent defender of Renarin perhaps not being a Truthwatcher. I was pleased to hear your thoughts on this matter. My personal thoughts are this scene definitely dispels most doubts which concerns Renarin, except for the matter of his visions… I have a theory for it… but I am not the most well-versed within the Cosmere, so it may be my line of thought is inconsistent in one way or another.
About Adolin, I tried througout several posts to better phrased my thoughts. I explained how I felt my feelings were intentional, how I felt Brandon planned for me (well not me specifically, but the readers) to react this way. While I said I felt Adolin’s story was stalling and not progressing, I also said I felt Brandon purposefully wrote it this way. In shorts, I do think he did write in Adolin being sad, melancholic, looking towards the past, isolating himself while the world around him is moving at a frenzy on purpose. I think I am supposed to feel slightly disappointed Adolin seems to not be going anywhere great while everyone else is. I think this is exactly what the character probably thinks and the author managed to get me to feel it.
Of course, there will be more from Adolin, but I am unable to predict what precisely. It is however true I am not big onto him becoming Highprince (I never thought it was an interesting trajectory for his character, it makes too much like Dalinar, but maybe I just lack the imagination to envision it) or on the major family conflict to be in between Dalinar/Elhokar when I wanted it be Dalinar/Adolin.
There is also the fact Adolin now being Highprince means he will never suffer the consequences for having murdered Sadeas. He is now above the law. He can’t be touched. Dalinar can’t disowned him or create any of the situations I thought would arise. What else will Brandon write into the book? I have no idea.
Arguably, the Shallan lovers have it the hardest within this book: she hasn’t been doing much. Her character hasn’t be set into motion yet, so I am waiting for her story to unfold.
@141: I have had many thoughts with respect to the Dalinar/Adolin relationship and how I felt Adolin’s personality has been forged around an innate desire to both please and emulate his father. I always read conflict in between what Dalinar wants Adolin to be, what Adolin thinks he needs to be and what his heart tells him is right. I do think him killing Sadeas was where the conflict became the most apparent because, on one side he had Dalinar urging to be the better man, to obey to this code of life he gave him and on the other was his heart yelling him this man needed to die if he was to safe-keep his family, his men, his people.
I disagree Adolin would have ever followed his father’s footstep had he kept on being the Blackthorn. I always felt the flashbacks and Adolin’s viewpoints serve to illustrate how different Adolin is from his father. Yes, he idolizes him, he worships him, he wants to emulate him, he wants to obey him, but each time the choice was in between obeying his father or his heart, his heart won. He will not become a bully. He will fight bullies and, I am sorry, but young Dalinar was a bully. In respect to this, Adolin takes after his mother: Navani said how she would never bully anyone.
I did think, going into Oathbringer, this conflict would be broached. It hasn’t so far and the story hints more strongly towards and Elhokar/Dalinar conflict than an Adolin/Dalinar one. Hence I am unsure what to think anymore.
I however agree Adolin doesn’t think of himself as perfect. Having killed Sadeas certainly made him think he was the lesser man. Logically not having been chosen by a spren ought to give him similar feelings, but the story so far has not hinted towards those existing.
@146: What he could be? He could be the man who stands up for those being bullied, the man who takes the hit for others to live on, the man who will not turn his back on a friend, the man who will always follow his heart in doing what is right no matter what laws and codes are saying, the man having the strength to really be himself…
He could be the man his mother would have been proud of. The man his father will never be.
I agree about Kaladin/Shallan. While I am a hardcore Adolin/Shallan shipper, I have to admit every single element foreshadowing we have hint towards a Kaladin/Shallan relationship. The fact Aladar’s daughter keeps on being mention definitely hints towards her being involved with Adolin, much to my great chagrin.
On Adolin and Eshonai: I forgot to comment on it because huh there has been many posts. I do think these two characters have an unfinished story and I did make a few theories involving them teaming up at some point.
52 & 74: right on. Aaaaarggh! The wait is killing me.
77 and similar posts re Syl and Pattern watching: glad I wasn’t drinking anything. It would be quite a mess spraying coffee or water or whatever, everywhere. Too funny.
Ben
I suspect the boy who had oathbringer was not killed by Dalinar. He will figure later in the story, perhaps reclaiming oathbringer/seeking vvengeance/spren bonding?
Poor Dalinar… Did he actually kill the highlord’s heir?
Question: at what point do Dalinar et al begin wondering what’s up with Taln and where the rest of them Heralds at>
I think it’s very interesting that Renarin says “Glys wasn’t sure he could do it”. Sounds like Truthwatchers are like Lightweavers, where they don’t have set level up points, since Sylphrena and Wyndle were both pretty clear that they could become shardblades when the time was right.
I need to reread this already, but my first take on what Dalinar needed to keep hidden from Galivar at the end of the flashback chapter was that he was referring back to his feelings for Navani again. I think just being around Galivar constantly reminds him of her and he has to keep suppressing that through battles and later drinking.
Also, I’m amazed that anyone actually believes Taravangian might actually have a KR in his pocket. He’s a lying liar and you should assume everything he says is a deception. It is possible he might have one of the honorblades around, though, if he needs to have someone prove something. Otherwise I think he might try to use this lie to spread deception, by passing along information (fake or real) he has that he wants to give to Dalinar in order to manipulate him. “The spren told me” is going to be his convenient source for all the stuff he’s not supposed to know.
@various re:honourblade opening oathgate
I stand to be corrected here but iirc they mention near the end of WOR that they tried using it and it did not work to open the oathgate
Re: adolin
I believe he is moving closer to becoming radiant himself and awakening his blade, …
**Renarin approached. “You could ask Shallan to draw Sureblood,” Renarin said. “I bet, um, she’d be able to do a good job. To remember.” **
This gave me shivers ^^ … and I hope it develops further
I’m really leaning towards Adolin becoming an Edgedancer. Brandon is very deliberate with his language when proto-Radients get close to speaking Oaths. We’ve seen it with all three of the Orders we know of that have set Oath patterns. And that remember word is coming up fairly often in Adolin POV’s.
I believe we would be at a interesting point when Dalinar discovers that Adolin killed Sadeas. What will be Adolin’s punishment? Dalinar being bonded to Stormfather, he cannot ignore something that was not honorable.
Do we see Adolin banished and then joining the dark side? He has not yet shown any jealousy for being the only non radiant in the family. Plus there is the yet undeveloped romance between Shallan and Kaladin. Will he be the misfit that is lured by Odium? Sanderson’s Darth Vader. Can he be the Odium’s Champion described in Dalinar’s vision? We know he is excellent duelist.
wow that last bit has be chilled … but please someone tell me that he didn’t kill that kid for his shardblade …
My guess is Dalinar lets the boy and his mother go. Boy returns a decade and a half later, leads a rebellion against Gavilar (one that Gavilar is worried about, and the one mentioned in the last set of chapters). Dalinar’s wife gets’s taken hostage and whatever happens as a consequence of that is what Dalinar has forgotten.
EEK!
Random thoughts, in no particular order:
-Dalinar seems to want to create a substitute Windrunner with the honorblade
-Gawx is such a sh!t
-Syl talking about sex is funny
-Confirmed: Kaladin definitely likes Shall an
-Mr T strikes again! I hope Dalinar watches his back
-I think Elhokar will be the interlude novella
-Elhokar has become a much more attractive character now. I’m glad he’s stepping up and filling his father’s shoes
-Can’t wait to see Jasnah, Wit and Szeth
-I don’t really like Dalinar’s flashbacks. They’re kinda boring and don’t really contribute much to the story, at least not yet
That’s all I can think of on the spot
@83 – yes I thought I remembered him seeking those patterns – thanks for bringing it up so he is a radiant in the making …
#66, It said their eyes didn’t glow, not that their eyes weren’t red.
Jasnah is the author of OB. She mentions her heretical ways.
I firmly believe Renarin knows what Adolin did, but doesnt want to admit.
I think Adolin may wind up being Odiums champion, that his mind was split by the hate he felt for Sadeas, compelling him to relive the murder. Adolin is the only family member (minus Navani i suppose) who doesnt have a spren. I think a Cryptic will bond with Elhokar, making him a WillShaper, which may be what caused the Recreance.
I think the final battle will be between Kaladin and Adolin. It would make sense that Odium would choose Adolin.
I would like to see a reunion between Zahel (Kalad) and Nightblood.
I had a wild idea. Somewhere it was written that the parshmen had given up something of themselves to be freed from their master (assuming Odium). Is it possible that they were changed by the everstorm, but still are not bound to Odium like the parshendi? As in, the parshmen might be allies against the everstorm-changed parshendi?
I don’t think we have seen the author of Oathbringer. It mentions the sunmaker, the previous owner of Oathbringer. I think he is the one who wrote Oathbringer.
@158: A lot of people think being a Radiant doesn’t imply being a good person. Gavilar wanted to launch a Desolation just so he would have a threat to force his kingdom to remain united and he was on his way towards becoming a Bondsmith. What he seek to do was plain despicable and yet, it fit within the oaths of one order. What Taravangian is doing isn’t any different, thus I wouldn’t be surprised if he were a KR too.
@160: Yeah I got this feeling too, with the wording, but I felt making Adolin the Highprince was a severe stick within most Adolin relate theories. If he does not break, then he will never revive his Blade… and everything indicates Adolin will NOT break. He’ll power through it just like he always did, just like everyone says he will, just like Dalinar thinks. I guess it will make many readers pleased: Adolin becoming a KR has never been a very popular theory. The most popular theory has always been Adolin becomes a Highprince, a war leader and keeps on doing what he has been doing for the last two books in large part to avoid having another Kholin KR.. I have been one of the only ones thinking this wasn’t very interesting :-(
@161: Adolin’s punishment? Honestly, nothing. He is the Highprince now. They can’t do anything to him. He is above the law, just like Sadeas was. He can’t be trialed, he can’t be disowned, he can’t suffer consequences other than knowing he lied.
It is one of the several reasons why I hate this plot twist. I feel it completely removes tension and suspense from the copycat murdering plot line. Hopefully, there will be a massive twist.
@167: Honestly, the idea Adolin killed the second man is a tad overdone. There is absolutely nothing which indicates he was “compeled” to relive the murder and it isn’t as if he didn’t have any viewpoints. We know what Adolin thinks and we know he didn’t kill the second man nor does he wish to kill more people.
On Dalinar murdering the Boy: I am surprised at seeing so many readers trying to find a rational to make it so Dalinar didn’t kill him. Why are we all so surprised? We know the man was barbarous brute, a monster.
“Ryshadium were often called the “third Shard.” Blade, Plate, and Mount.
That didn’t do them justice. You couldn’t earn a Ryshadium simply by defeating someone in combat. They chose their riders.
But, Adolin thought as Gallant nuzzled his hand, I suppose that was how it used to be with Blades too. They were spren who chose their bearers.”
OMG are Ryshadium horses who have knowingly bonded with spren? We know that Ryshadium are more intelligent than other horses, they choose their own riders and choose when to allow anyone orher than their riders interact with them. They also can be sent off to do tasks on their own but only if they want to.
We never see herds of Ryshadium or young Ryshadium. What if they are average young horses who choose/are chosen by spren when they are young.
If this is the case, did the original KR’s have them or is this something new? If something new then it could be a gamechanger in the fight with the voidbringers. Perhaps after the KR’s betrayal of the spren the spren tried bonding with another sentient mammalian type creatures that had not been tried.
What I found particulary interesting is how Lightweaving and Regrowth interplayed when Renarin healed Adolin’s wrist. He created the perfected image of Adolin (I am not entirely sure whether this is only in Adolins mind or an actual Illusion) and heals his wrist. This also corresponds to Kaladin’s slave brands not healing because in his self image he is not really free of slavery and with Shallan’s “manipulation” of the bandits by showing them what they could, perhaps should, be. An additional question here is, whether Renarin also pushed Adolin’s personality in the direction of the idealized image or if he only healed his body.
@170 Adolin doesn’t have to break. As per WoB I personally heard, breaking isn’t required, expanding the soul is. Tragedy (breaking) is one way to open the soul but not the only one.
The “voidbringers” that stole the grain are defn the parshendi that escaped storm form, right? Probably heading to Kholinar to find Delinar… Warform, and didn’t kill anyone….
@171 read the preface to edgedancer, answer is in there.
“warform” is not evil, its just “form for war”
Obviously Everstorm didn’t have enough “Odium-spren” to transform all parchendi into “evil”/higher forms.
And its not needed, I expect that warform is relatively low importance for decision-making…
So far they get supplies and take cover…. or maybe they are going to attack Kholinar and try to make it their center of operation in Alethkar
Wetlandernw @128
Right and the person I responded to in @105 implied that the description of warform was a conspiracy. I was debunking that…
@176 I am talking about the 100 that escaped Eshoni….
To everyone saying that Adolin won’t face any consequences now that he’s highprince -I don’t think that’s exactly true. First of all, there must be a way to punish a highprince for a major crime. I would assume you would just need a lot of evidence they truly were the ones who committed the crime. And lets be honest here, even if he wasn’t highprince, and everyone found out, I don’t think he was ever in any real danger of being seriously punished. He’s well liked, no one liked Sadeas, and his dad and cousin are in charge. I’m sure he would have some sort of punishment but it wouldn’t go so far as banishment or death. I think the biggest potential consequence for him would be that Dalinar would lose faith in him, and stop trusting him. Adolin could deal with the court turning against him, but I think if his father did, that would truly break him, and I think that’s still a potential possibility on what would happen if the truth comes out. At the very least, it’s something he would recognize as a possibility. So I think that tension from him possibly being discovered would definitely still be there. It might be even more now, as once people find out, they might have been willing to still follow Kholin house under Dalinar, but with Adolin in charge, they may be more wary.
I don’t really know if the book is headed towards people finding out, or just conflict from the investigation, and I’m more than happy to just sit back and see what happens, but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents there on the lack of punishment, because I really don’t think that’s likely.
I’ve also been thinking about the did Dalinar kill the boy or not debate, and I’m even more sure now that he didn’t. Killing the boy would have been a part of acquiring Oathbringer, and maybe the old Dalinar was ok with that, but the Dalinar we know would never be ok with carrying a weapon that involved the death of a child. I can’t imagine he’d still be carrying it up until he gave it to Sadeas; he’s probably won plenty of shards since then, I would think he’d switch to another. I thought maybe he’d keep it as a reminder of who he was, and not to become that person again, but we had so much monologuing in the first book about who he used to be -if the sword had such a dark history I feel like we’d have gotten something in his chapters about the sword being a reminder. IIRC, whenever he did talk about his sword, he was in awe of it and proud of it. I can’t see him feeling that way if he got the sword within a few minutes of murdering a kid.
I agree with @179 and a few others. He didn’t kill the boy and claimed he died. His shame is not telling the truth and letting them believe the boy is dead and taking the reputation hit. Of course it comes back to bite him in the form of a kidnapped wife.
A day late and a dollar short.
Chapter 10
Of course my first thought is one of grammar. In almost all cases, I seem to prefer British usage over American usage. I have no idea why, no one in my family is British. But I always want to write and say leapt, over leaped. The word sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
Really Kaladin? The Stormfather birthed Syl?
Kaladin speaks for all of us when he says “Finally!”
Syl’s opinion of Adolin strikes me as a red herring… one that will no doubt work on this comment thread.
We follow up Syl’s opinion of Adolin with Gallant’s opinion. I think I trust Gallant’s opinion more.
That sounds a whole lot like what Shallan does with her drawings. Visualize people as they could be and help shape that reality in themselves. I haven’t studied the Orders much, but this should put to rest the suspicions of Renarin not being what he claims. That is obviously a Radiant power at work.
And Healing. Renarin can heal people? How does that fit? Maybe Adolin Invested Stormlight without realizing it while Renarin did… whatever he did? Maybe Adolin became the perfected version of himself for a moment, the version that would become a Radiant, and was healed in the process?
Chapter 11
Dalinar flashback!!
Baby Jasnah…
While reading these flashbacks, I find the comments about how horrible Dalinar was amusing. Someone had mentioned Dalinar and Gavilar’s temperament and attitudes as proof that Navani had some ulterior motive behind marrying one of them. But… Dalinar and Gavilar are the epitome of Alethi masculinity in these flashbacks. They are exactly what Navani’s culture has taught her is attractive.
So, the man Dalinar spared saves him in turn.
Ouch, Dalinar killed the boy. Can’t imagine that is the picture of Alethi manhood.
Hmmm, the Sunmaker was named Sadees. Perhaps Sadeas is a descendant, or just named after him. Might explain why Sadeas always lusted after that particular Shardblade.
Chapter 12
Dalinar’s thoughts regarding the Radiants, and how they being fallible men just like Dalinar, and finding hope in that meaning the new Radiants could be like them resonates with me. Its exactly how I view the heroes of Biblical lore. They were just men and women, like us. Which means we can do and accomplish what they did.
Finally, Lift’s storyline is coming into play. Gawx will most likely surprise Dalinar, lol. And its curious that the story is Gawx raised a boy from the dead, rather than himself from the dead.
I’d forgotten that Dalinar had Szeth’s Blade, which will allow someone to gain the powers of a Windrunner. He’s right, it wil probably open the Oathgate.
Elhokar is right to do this. He’s actually setting an example for the other Monarchs to follow. Instead of giving up Alethkar, he’s agreeing to rule Alethkar and let Dalinar focus on Urithiru and the Desolation. This is what is best for both of them.
And of course, the chpater ends with a classic “Dun, dun dun!” moment. Taravangian. That guy.
@133.
I have to disagree, there is no explicit mention that Dalinar killed the boy. Whether he did or didn’t it occurred off-screen.
Whilst Galivar states “they won’t like that you killed their highlord and his heir.” this presupposes that Galivar knows the truth of what happened.
Although, given the Thrill, it is certainly a possibility and maybe even a high probability.
Glad others noted that Renarin is trying to get his Brother to remember Sureblood, who might otherwise have been forgotten…
Chekhov’s gun much, or is this just Brandon being Brandon?
@181
Renarin is a Truthwatcher and thus has access to Progression/Regrowth as well as Illumination. As I said above, what I found interesting was how the two intermixed in this case.
In regards to Kaladin/Shallan. The nature of their romantic interest came about when they were stuck in the chasms together. For the first time Kaladin felt like somebody understood him. That kind of emotional bond makes sense. I can see the possibility of them getting together but I actually doubt it. I feel like Shallan was the person he needed at that time to help him grow and become the radiant he is now.
I’m not really sure I can say why I feel this way, but I’m not sure that Shallan is who he needs now and I’m not sure they are completely compatible. Not that there is a suitable replacement interest at the moment.
I have to admit, after a few days of discussion, I’m now leaning more towards ‘Dalinar didn’t kill the boy and this will come back to bite him’.
@171 on Dalinar “potentially” murdering the boy –
You make it sound like people are looking for things that are not there. The facts are these: We didn’t see it, Dalinar didn’t say it. Gavilar who wasn’t there, informed us that Dalinar murdered the boy. In past chapters we have seen evidence of both young Dalinar’s brutality but also his mercy. Remember that it was Dalinar who named the archers price for service as not pillaging the town, and pretty much bullied him into it.
The framework is certainly there for the boy to have lived. I guess we’ll just have to read and find out.
Previous comment should have been @170
I’m surprised that no one commented on “Sylblade” … I loved it! Has that term been used before and I missed it? I’m really enjoying these chapters! My personal thought is that Dalinar did NOT kill the son, and that is his shame he thought about … he probably considered it a moment of weakness
UPDATE: Missed that @138 commented as well :)
vandaralden @177 – Okay, this is actually funny, now. When I went back and read JUST those comments and tilt my head a little, I see what you mean. So yes, we’re in total agreement. There was not a soul in that village who would be able to describe warform unless they’d seen it in the parshmen who took their grain. Since they are described quite accurately by a handful of eyewitnesses, it’s safe to assume that the thieves were indeed warform parshmen.
Mpsul2 @178 – It’s a nice theory, but the distance makes it impossible. It took Kaladin half a day to fly the first thousand miles, and then three days to walk the other ninety, according to Chapter 5. How would a mixed bunch of a thousand mateform, workform, dullform, and nimbleform Parshendi make it that far, that quickly – especially since a number of them were quite elderly? Even if they merely took the 50 fastest, they’d never have reached northwestern Alethkar in time to pull off this raid.
shadowsfell @188 – It was mentioned @138, so, not precisely “no one.” Just almost no one. You are correct, though, that this is the first time the term has been used in the books.
@189 true the timing is tight, but they did escape before the last highstorm before the weeping. How long ago was that? 1-2 weeks?
It was one day before the Everstorm was called. That was 7 days before Kaladin left for Alethkar.
I suspect that Adolin being Highprince instead of Adolin will be a crucial aspect when it becomes general knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas. I am unsure as to whether it will help or harm Adolin’s position. If I had to make a guess, I would say harm his position. In this, I mean that his punishment will be worse than if he were just the heir. However, I would not put down any money to support my guess.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
“It is my solemn and important duty to bring happiness, light, and joy into your world when you’re being a dour idiot. Which is most of the time. So there.” I need my own Syl. Guess I’ll have to settle for watching her and Kaladin; their banter gets more enjoyable all the time.
Though I could do without a Syl who would remind me that “People in relationships are happier.” Yes, ladyspren, I know. Don’t rub it in.
“I know you’ve been busy fighting guys in white clothes and stuff” X-D
I love the little glimpses of Roshar’s flora, fauna, and small-scale economies. Though I don’t understand this bit: He passed open rockbuds and wiggling vines, glutted and fat from the constant rainfall. Following the Weeping, they’d often find as many dead plants around the town as they did after a strong highstorm.
To a man from a farming village, nothing was more distressing than an empty silo at planting time. Slight chills there
@179: I hope you are right. The idea the worst consequence Adolin could face is mild guilt towards being forced to lie seems rather anti-climatic, to me at the very least. So far, we haven’t seen Highprinces being disposed unless by rivals. I am currently unsure Elhokar or Dalinar have the legal power to demote a Highprince.
I agree execution or exile are unlikely: I never considered both options to be extraordinarily likely to begin with, but I always thought disownment was a real possibility. On the day Adolin inherits for real, then Dalinar can’t come back and take it all back: you can’t take what you have already given. I don’t think there legal options for it which makes me think Highprince Adolin indeed is above the law. Whichever consequences he’ll suffer, I think it will be with himself, not with his father nor his family. I am not currently reading Dalinar as likely to enter within conflict with Adolin: he is completely absorbed by his politics and Elhokar. I am not currently reading Adolin was being ever willing to share his secret. I am not seeing it coming out anytime soon. I am also not reading Adolin as about to stumble: some people just never break, they just go on and on. Adolin might be this person: everyone says how strong, steady and perfect he is, so maybe he really is and it was I who made up stuff because I thought the alternative was more interesting.
So well, I’ll sit back for now and see what next week brings, but I am very dubious about the Highprince plot twist.
I think we put too much hope into what Dalinar would or would not be ready to do based on how we have been reading him so far. The man is a warmonger, a killer. I definitely he would carry a Blade even if he had to kill a child to obtain it.
@186: My thoughts are many readers are currently looking for a reason for Dalinar NOT to have killed the kid because they would prefer if he didn’t. While I agree we did not see him kill him, on screen, my perspective of the scene sincerely makes me believe he did. It also fits Brandon writing style to hint towards this scene as opposed to write it, because it would be too brutal.
The rules of ownership when it comes to Blades have never been entirely clear, but I am thinking the second the kid picked up the Blade, he owned it. Hence, Dalinar had to kill him to claim Oathbringer.
This being said, I read a lot of reluctance from readers to accept the idea young Dalinar was a bad person, a monster, a killer and no, he wasn’t always a honorable one. It doesn’t mean he was rotten to the core, we see moments were his former self can be glimpsed upon. While he later changed and I feel the flashbacks, so far, have shown us his barbarous instincts were mostly caused by the Thrill. The Thrill made him the man he was and he changed only when he found a away to control himself despite it. This makes his change plausible.
I also suspect Dalinar, because of his personality and his upbringing, was a particularly sensitive individual to the Thrill: it runs stronger in him than in most people. Whenever he is in it, he has no control. Present day Dalinar does think back of those days, of how “out of control” he was. As thus, it makes perfect sense he would have killed the kid because he was in Thrill at the moment. He had not have the Thrill, he probably wouldn’t have done it.
@193: How would it made it worst? As a heir, he can be disowned. As a Highprince, they can’t demote him: nobody has this power. They can’t take his lands, they can’t do anything to him: they can’t even challenge him to duel.
Hmm, looks like Rysn and her babsk could be heading back to Shin lands at Navani’s request. Maybe Rysn will become Radiant and unlock the Oathgate there…
Gepeto @170 said: “Adolin’s punishment? Honestly, nothing. He is the Highprince now. They can’t do anything to him. He is above the law, just like Sadeas was. He can’t be trialed, he can’t be disowned, he can’t suffer consequences other than knowing he lied.”
What is the authority behind your statement that a highprince cannot be tried, disowned or suffer any consequences other than knowing Adolin lied? I do not recall anything in the text that supports that conclusion. I think perhaps you are letting your dislike of where you think the plot is going to manufacture a supposed textual statement supporting your dislike.
If there is text to support your statement, then I am wrong.
If whoever stole the gran is actually Parshendi, perhaps they are Thune and the others who escaped from Eshonai. (In one of my prior posts, I opined that those who stile the grain were humans wearing disguises to make them appear to be “voidbringers.”). I still think these were just humans. But I wanted to throw out another theory.
I see that Mpsul2 subscribes to my second theory (@178)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Mpsul2 @178:
I had a similar thought, but about the Stormform Parshendi. That maybe the Everstorm somehow transports them to where they need to be to lead and organize the newly ensprenned ex-parshmen. Because, as we have seen with Eshonai, while a Stormspren brainwashes it’s captive Listener, it doesn’t replace their innate talents and skills. Storm-form Eshonai still uses her leadership and military acumen to accomplish Odium-inspired goals, which is why Venli is unable to take over, etc. But the parshmen had been empty until the Everstorm hit – no personality, no experience. I don’t see how suddenly getting a spren could immediately compensate for their blank slate condition and allow them to plan and perform surgical military operations.
And as a corrollary to that thought – I have been convinced for some time that Eshonai being in the irregular highstorm conjured by the Stormfather will allow her to kick out the stormspren possessing her. Because Parshendi normally change their spren by walking into highstorms. But now it occurs to me that some of the other Stormform Parshendi may have gotten the same opportunity. So, maybe they aren’t quite finished and Thude’s thousand of dissidents aren’t the last of their kind.
Oh, and I really, really hope that Dalinar doesn’t decide to gift Elhokar with Jezrien’s blade to help him compensate for his non-Radiant status or to enable him to fly to Kholinar! Really, he should bond it himself and go negotiate with the recalcitant monarchs in person. And if the Stone Shamans come after him, they’ll be in for a surprise.
Also – Dalinar heals from what should have been debilitating wounds, but suffers from the pangs of encroaching old age?! This makes no sense, IMHO. Damage is damage. Unless it is the same thing as with Kaladin’s tatoo – only in this case Dalinar instead of clinging to a past identity, wants very much to distance himself as far as possible from his younger self, so trappings of age are actually welcome.
Oh, and as regards Aladar’s daughter – she is his scribe, as is customary among the Alethi. A female character doesn’t need to justify her appearance in a scene by being a prospective love interest/marriage prospect! Maybe she’ll become Shallan squire, instead. It is high time for female squires to pop up, too, not just dudes.
I have seen several posters (sorry don’t remember who) write about how Dalinar became a personwho could turn an enemy into a friend and cite Teleb from the Rift flashback as an example. I just retead this and I think they are misreading this passage. I know that I did at first. If one reads too fast it can seem as if Teleb is fighting FOR the people of the Rift, but if you read more closely you see that Teleb is on Dalinar’s side. He does not fire arrows at Dalinar, but rather at the soldiers who are trying to bring down the bridge Dalinar is crossing
@193 – I’m assuming he means that many plants drown from the glut of water. It’s possible to overwater some plants.
@194 – actually, in a weird way, story wise I would kind of prefer it if he did kill the kid simply because there has been all this build up to it being this totally awful thing and I guess in a way I feel let down (although I suppose this would just mean that the really awful thing hasn’t happened yet). I agree that it would definitely be more in line with Brandon to cutaway from the scene and not show it, and I also wondered if the boy picking up the blade was significant in some way. But, I think there is at least some credence to the fact that he didn’t, specifically the part there he seems ashamed about something Gavilar doesn’t know, but Gavilar DOES seem to know he killed the kid. Now, it could be something else of course, but something about it just seems a bit off. And it would also be like Brandon to make the scene not seem as straightforward as it appears!
Regarding Adolin, your concerns of which I have been following – Did Dalinar officially abdicate yet and officially make Adolin Highprince? It’s possible that if Adolin is discovered before this happens, then Renarin would end up the heir (if Dalinar ends up deciding to disinhereit or he faces some other legal consequence). But I’m not quite as invested in this particular plot so I haven’t given as much thought to it.
@191 I just reread the interlude. They actually left before the second to last highstorm before the weekend. I was wrong, timing isn’t tight, it’s defn the escaped parshendi.
….weeping lol
@195 Daniel. Yes I am sure that they probably are going to head to Shinovar but I wonder what kind of reception they will recieve this time. The rulers of Shin were (on the surface) so adamant that the radiant powers were not returning that they sold one if their own into bondage for suggesting it. But then they sent him off with a very powrful shardblade as well so I think there is a great deal of hidden motivation there that we will eventually see.
I wonder if there is a scism there between their rulers and their priests. That could explain Szeth’s story arc.
FArdareis… @198
Is Teleb the amazing archer who joins Dalinar in chapter 2? I don’t see any particular name given for archer in that chapter, but if they are the same then that explains the reference.
@194 As was mentioned in @199 I think that most people are responding to the “what if Gavilar finds out.” He was not nervous about that before the battle and it was implied (at least in my opinion) that the emotions are connected to the crying of the child. Even if it isn’t though, if it wasn’t sparing the child’s life then what happened off-screen that he doesn’t want Gavilar to know about. Saving the child’s life is the simplest explanation and it is what I’m leaning toward.
I won’t have a problem if it’s something else because it might be refreshing to see a (sort of) redemption story where they are redeemed from something as awful as child murder. We get this idea that there are certain crimes that are completely irredeemable and perhaps there are some but I think there are plenty of people who commit murder who regret it afterward and truly turn their lives around. They can’t fix the mistake but they can become a different person from the experience. So there are things that appeal to me if he did kill the child. It also means that there is a deeper mystery about what happened on screen.
Occam’s Razor would indicate that Dalinar spared the boy’s life…at least given the information that we currently have. There could be many things we don’t know. I don’t think many of the people who say that he spared the life have a problem with the fact that Dalinar might have taken the life…at least from a story-telling perspective. It is just that they have seen the same thing as me. The most likely explanation for what he wouldn’t want Gavilar to know from the off-screen space is that he didn’t actually kill the child.
@204 The problem is that Sanderson knows people will make assumptions about the fate of the boy and he’s not above taking advantage of it. It’s an obvious trope and we can never trust Sanderson when it comes to obvious tropes.
@43 Yes, or alternatively, her “children are Kaladin’s Plate
@205 Actually, I think Brandon follows tropes as often as he breaks away from them. That’s one thing I like about his writing. Deliberately always avoiding tropes would make a terrible story. Yes, he breaks tropes, that means it is entirely possible that the boy was murdered and there is something else. It is also possible that Brandon wanted cut away when he did because there was a surprising motive for saving the child.
…Or maybe the child was actually Wit in disguise and kicked his butt and then ran off but not before dropping the shardblade…y’know that could happen too…
@206 The blades scream because they are dead spren. If the armor was dead spren as well then it would also scream. It does not when Kaladin uses the shardhelm as a gauntlet in the duel. Therefore it is unlikely that the plate is other spren.
So unless those spren don’t scream or they don’t die when the bond gets broken then the plate must be something other than spren.
@208 they don’t scream because they are “sub-spren”. They don’t have full intelligence…
Imo
Preliminary Thoughts on Chapter 10 (Note: whited out by moderator to avoid potential spoilers.)
I don’t recall Syl performing this function much in the two previous books. I remember in tWoK Syl talking to Kaladin in the slave wagon, and Syl bringing him a Blackbane leaf as he was about to commit suicide, in the mistaken belief that losing his Blackbane leaf was what was making him so depressed. But I don’t remember many overt efforts by her to bring him out of his dark moods. So, is this a new duty, one she’s assumed at this stage of his journey to radianthood, or has it been part of her duties all along?
————————————————————————————-
The way she cocked her head before elaborating on her initial answer also suggests to me that she was communicating with the Stormfather at that moment, and that the highlighted part actually came from him. Amazing. This suggests the Stormfather is much more powerful than I originally supposed, and raises all kinds of questions … he is capable of making sentient spren? Is he still making Honorspren?Does that mean he is keeping some bits and pieces, some kind of essence of Honor around to use to form new Honorspren?
————————————————————————————
Edit: More thoughts on reading further into chapter 10:
Now Brandon seems to be changing the goalposts on us. He has already established that progress along the KR stream requires growth of the proto-radiant in the ideals of his/her KR Order and speaking the Oaths (or Truths in the case of Lightweavers). Mow Renarin is telling us in effect that progress could be based on external needs (specifically, more KR are needed to operate the oathgate, so, presto!, more radiants). It could be that Renarin is not being exactly forthcoming about his progress as a KR and the reason he can now summon a Glysblade (Level 3 KR, I think), but the reason given here by Renarin is not very satisfying and cheapens the KR Orders.
——————————————————————————————-
Renarin just used Both his surges! We see later that Adolin merely holding Renarin’s stormlight-infused hand with his own good hand was enough to cure his other, injured, hand! Was that a conscious use of his Progression Surge by Renarin, or was it happenstance? Hopefully, we’ll find out when we get Renarin’s POV later.
And then we see him do almost exactly what Shallan did to win over Gaz and the other deserters on her way to the Shattered Plains, by making each soldier imagine a better version of himself. Except that, while Shallan needed to draw the soldiers to show them what they could be, Renarin can use a pulse of light (?) to make Adolin experience it! It seems to me that Renarin’s use of Illumination is much more effective than Shallan’s, in producing that effect. Or could it be that it worked that way with Adolin because of the closeness between the brothers?
Note: message edited by moderator. Roll over to reveal potential spoilers.
@204 you summed up my feelings exactly. @194 It’s not that I don’t want Dalinar to not be a child killer because it is clear he has done something truly horrific and likely worse than the death of one child. It is all about the “what if Gavilar finds out” right after the talk of killing the heir.
@205 It’s pretty clear that we cannot come to an agreement to alive or dead so I’d say he’s playing on our expectations already no matter which way it turns out.
Random question, has Dalinar fallen under the sway of the Thrill outside of the flashbacks? With all the talks of what his boon was, I wonder if it could be the ability to resist the Thrill, since quite clearly it led to some very bad outcomes.
Noble hunter @205
Letting someone believed you killed a small child when you actually didn’t is a trope?
Not sure I buy that.
Certainly doesn’t fall into the trope catogory for me. If I call something a trope I can immediately call to mind the same element in several different books/movies. Still more if I were to call it an obvious one.
@209 If by sub-spren you mean non sentient ones I suppose that could be. I still doubt it as even the unintelligent spren would likely scream if there was some way for them to “die.” It seems to me that spren are the personification of ideas. Spren therefore seems like a designation for those personifications that have a certain amount of life to them. The ones that react to things.
By nature of the shardplate, I would assume that it is related to spren but I feel like sub-spren is not a good description for a lifeless piece of creation and again if it was not lifeless I would assume it would scream when abandoned.
@196: So far, book evidences and WoB did not offer reasons to believe a Highprince could indeed be trialed for a crime.
Brandon did state, on Reddit, how being named “Highprince” merely meant you convinced other people to refer to you as such. He also mentioned how Gavilar started up at the 4th dahn and wasn’t considered a contender for the next Highprince(his line of the Kholin family was considered unimportant) until he started his war. So yes, Gavilar’s first step has been conquering Kholinar. Brandon also mentioned the existence of other lines of the Kholin family which aren’t as numerous as they once was. He let readers drew their own conclusions (my own is Gavilar/Dalinar killed most of them).
Thus, being a Highprince purely is an internal affair linked to each individual princedom: the King doesn’t seem to have a say in it. It is stated in book how Sadeas had to trap Yenev (I think this was his name) to duel him so he could “accidentally” kill him and thus open the door for someone favorable to the Kholin’s cause to step in. This individual was Aladar. I feel this example does tell us there are little you can do against a Highprince: you can war him, you can trap him into a duel and attempt to kill him, but you cannot legally dispose of him.
Of course, nothing is ever said of a Highprince murdering another Highprince. I would think it would end up as an affair to be solved in between the concerned princedoms, but nothing within the Alethi politics suggests the King or Dalinar have any authority in the manner. Now Dalinar surrendered the princedom to Adolin, he literally has no say: the Highprinces respond to the King who is going away on a mission. Dalinar surrendered any say he might have had over how Adolin administrate the princedom, he surrendered any say he might have had on him murdering Sadeas. A father and son conflict is very unlikely to happen now and yes this saddens me because I was rooting for it.
Thus, I am left to conclude there will be no one left to pass a sentence on Highprince Adolin providing anyone even had the authority to do so. Of course, the Kholin lords could decide they will not follow Adolin, a contender could arise, but it seems a very unlikely thing to happen.
@197: I have always thought the Honorblade would go to Elhokar, so I am holding my breath. About Aladar’s daughter, many wondered why she was so casually mentioned and since we all expect Shallan to end up with Kaladin and not Adolin, she comes across as a “prospect” for Adolin. Now he is Highprince, they may insist he marries.
@199: I agree Dalinar killing the kid better fits the impressions we were left with his past self. My thoughts are Dalinar is a character we like because we saw how he turned out, but had we read him since youth, we may have hated him. I think this chapter does highlight something I consider important: the Kholins were the invaders, the aggresors and… the bad guys. The Blackthorn is not a hero and I think Dalinar knows it, but too much rest on the authority it has granted him for him to come clean.
I have considered the possibility of “something happening” in between the moment Dalinar said he would abdictate and the moment it will become official. I however fear there will not be enough time for this. As I said earlier, it does appear as if Dalinar just gave up all rights he might have had over passing judgment for Adolin murdering Sadeas. While I had considered the possibility Dalinar may not end up being the one making the worst decision, I never thought there is just nothing he could do. It brings a great deal lot of light into an obcur WoB… Dalinar would have punished Adolin, had he found out before he made his move. Now, it is too late and too late for a good father/son conflict. Adolin literally doesn’t have to obey to Dalinar anymore. No more source of conflict. It is gone.
@203 Ryan
Yes I believe that Teleb was the Amazing archer because of the tattoo on his cheek.
Perhaps I am the one misunderstanding ppl’s comments!
Have caught up on most the comments (not all) and have a few thoughts.
1 – I am pretty firmly in the camp of Adolin becoming a radiant now. I think the emphasis on “Remembrance” is really important and will play into his development. I also think that part of his remembering will involve remembering Sadeas..essentially like Kaladin’s oath to protect those he hates even if it is right, something like I will remember those who have been lost even if they are steaming piles of ****.
2 – I also think that him being elevated to highprince in the midst of the murder is no coincidence. I think that he will confess to the murder (eventually) and he will step down into a self imposed exile.
3 – Since most theories put Adolin as an Edgedancer a small part of me wonders if he healed his arm himself. Renarin gave him the view of the perfected version of himself (possibly as a radiant) and in that moment he healed himself. Regrowth would be the common power shared so it could just be Renarin healing him, but something about the way that scene was setup makes me think that Adolin healed himself and had powers for a hot minute.
My intitial reaction was that Dalinar killed the kid. But like others have pointed out, it doesn’t square with Dalinar’s POV, and why would Brandon leave that part out of the flashback? He doesn’t have to be graphic to be explicit. So, there is intention on Brandon’s part to make us doubt Dalinar did kill the kid. The only reason to do that is because it becomes a plot point later in the sequence.
@212 This: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakingTheDead comes pretty close. Snow White and the Huntsman is a good example of the trope, too.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobleDemon
There are tropes involved if the situation itself is fairly unique. Another example is Drizzt Do’Urden when the drow raid the surface and he spares an elf-child’s life while everybody else was being slaughtered.
stegasauruss @179.
I think information on punishing a highprince who has committed a major crime can be found in this chapter.
Source: http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Words_of_Radiance:_Chapter_76
It is not referenced specifically in this footnote, I recall there is a conversation between Dalinar and Kaladin in the paragraph following, I think, that addresses the issue. Won’t say more in case everyone hasn’t read that book.
@212 The trope is setting up a dramatic moment of moral tension, cutting away to create ambiguity, and then having the character’s reaction mislead the view/reader about the result. Were Sanderson a purely conventional author, I’d take it as a given the kid is still alive. As he’s regularly unconventional, but not consistently, I think it’s impossible to guess.
@218 Your fiendish trap has failed! I did not click those links so will still get work done this afternoon.
@220 I unfortunately have been clicking links in there since I posted it…
@Gepeto, randomly: I’ve been rereading the Way of Kings, and one line in particular jumped oIut at me just now. Ch. 18, The Highprince of War, Dalinar and Elhokar are discussing the in-universe book. “They [the Radiants] didn’t write it. Nohadon, an oridnary man, was it’s author.”
And my first thought was “Oooh! ADOLIN!” I mean, I can see him re-awakening his blade, bonding with a new Ryshadium, and becoming a new Radiant, but if he doesn’t, or if he only does the first two and other near-Radiant and still heroic deeds, I can also see him becoming the next Nohadon. The philosopher-king who is grounded in reality, but who creates the ideals that future generations will look up to and follow.
I thought I’d share the thought with you, since you are heavily Invested in Adolin’s arc and seem determinedly pessimistic. His future is wide-open; it doesn’t seem like there’s anything he can’t be.
Everything has spren. Kaladin doesn’t hear screaming when he breaks a normal spear in battle. If armor spren are a middle level between normal object spren and bonding spren there is no reason they have to be like the higher level spren in that respect.
@223 Ok, but spren don’t “die” when the object they represent breaks so far as we know. The spren might…change? Either way. It is the ripping out of the bond that causes “death.” I would assume the armor would be part of the bond if it were spren. Also there is a difference between something having a spren and something being a spren.
Preliminary thoughts on Chapter 11:
The chapter appears to be a shorter (and less detailed) version of what is described in Unfettered II, with some details changed. Not much to comment about with respect to Dalinar’s savagery, which is clear in both versions. But then there is this new bit in Oathbringer which is not in the earlier version:
and then later …
Gavilar already knows Dalinar slaughtered hundreds of people by himself, and everyone ‘knows’ Dalinar killed both the highlord and his 6-7 year old son (to get the shardblade, Oathbringer). So what is it Dalinar doesn’t want Gavilar to find out? Could it be that Dalinar didn’t kill the little boy after all, and perhaps has the boy hidden somewhere? If so, and the boy is still alive, he will be at least 7 years or more older than Adolin. Can we guess who it might be?
—————————————————————————————-
We have seen Rathalas and The Rift, but not what caused Kadash to throw up and quit soldiering to become an ardent. Was it a different incident at the same place but a different time? Or did Dalinar indeed kill the 6-year old boy and that murder was so gruesome it caused Kadash’s crisis of conscience? I expect we’ll find out in further flashbacks.
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just a thought regarding Adolin becoming a highprince. The highprinces having all this autonomy was PRIOR to Galivar becoming king of a united Alethkar. If Dalinar abdicates to become ruler of Urithiru over Elhokar who is KING of Alethkar, then Elhokar would be over Adolin wouldn’t he? Dalinar just agreed to let Elhokar rule as he sees fit, as long as Elhokar defers to Dalinar regarding the voidbringer war. Would it not cause conflict if it is revealed Adolin killed Sadeas AFTER Adolin is crowned highprince, putting him directly under Elhokar’s purview? And Elhokar trying to be a good king for a change, decides to punish Adolin and there is nothing Dalinar can do to protect his son as he no longer holds any authority in the governace of Alethkar? THERE is the conflict that you are begging for so much, but still results in Adolin being a highprince and still being held accountable.
Is it me, or is it strange that Dalinar uses “lighteyes” as an insult? I’m used to Kaladin using it, but it seems strange coming from a highprince.
“Fools, idiots! Storming lighteyes and Damnation’s own politics!”
@@@@@ Gepeto @@@@@214 – Elhokar says, in his abdication conversation (say that 3 times fast!) that Highprinces would be subject to Dalinar’s authority when in Urithiru, but not anywhere else. So, because these murders occurred on Dalinar’s turf (officially now, at least), Adolin would be subject to his father’s judgment, should it so occur. I could see him being banished from Urithiru for life, and being sent away with Elhokar to go back to Kholinar. Just a thought, though….it could play out in several ways, as I see it
More oaths, more of the spren that moves into the physical realm. Could the blade be the mind of the spren, and the plate be the body? That would explain why you only hear screams from the blade.
If Dalinar refrained from killing the boy, why would he hide that from Gavilar? Didn’t he seem to think things would go more smoothly assimilating the people of the Rift if Dalinar hadn’t killed the bright lord and his heir?
Oathbringer coluld easily have been written by the Sunmaker. I remember another comment about the sunmaker in another book, but I can’t remember which. But I remember it having to do with him being a heretic, but don’t quote me on that, I can’t remember. Also every previous book that has been written was old. Also, Sylblade.
“The horse turned his head, looking at Adolin with one watery blue eye, rectangular pupil at the center.”
Er, What? Rectangular pupil? How would that possibly work?
I haven’t read all of the comments yet- I have twentyish to go, but have to go to a class soon.
@Various and the idea of Dalinar giving Taravangian the Honor Blade. That is a downright terrifying idea. Somehow I didn’t think of that while reading the chapters- mostly because I was too worried about King Taravangian being the only one who would go to Urithiru. But add to that fact the fact that Dalinar has an honor blade to give to someone, and he trusts Taravangian…..gah! That’s horrible.
@Gepeto, in regard to the injury and Adolin’s progression. You mentioned being sad that Adolin’s wrist is better, because you wanted it to come into play later. I was thrilled (lower case t) with how his injury was played. It was used as an opportunity to show Renarin using surges, and really accepting his part as a Knight Radiant. As for not progressing, I disagree. Not all progression has to be the same, and everyone grows in a different way. I like the theory of him becoming an Edgedancer, personally. And a large part of that is remembering. We see him doing a lot of that, and whether that’s important to him becoming and Edgedancer or not, I think it’s still important to his development. So, while it may not be the kind of development you were hoping for, Adolin is developing. He’s reflecting a lot more, which is a welcome change I think. And a logical one. After having rashly made a decision that ended a man’s life (awful as that man may have been), and forever changed Alethi politics, it’s not too absurd for him to try to take a few steps back. My thoughts on the matter anywho.
I was super pleased with Elhokar! That may have been my favorite part this week. I was pleasantly surprised by his actions, and think there’s hope for him yet. Also, I don’t know why, but I think it’s kind of adorable that he refers to Kaladin as “the hero”. I mean, obviously it would be better if he actually bothered with Kaladin’s name, but…I love that the impression Kaladin leaves on him is that of a hero. The idea that he wants Kaladin with him because he knows that Kaladin can make things right. I loved it. Though, it is sad that a large part of his decision to take Kaladin comes from a belief that if left to himself he’ll mess it up…it might not be a totally unfounded belief, but it’s sad nonetheless.
With all the talk of the Azir, all I really want is Lift. Specifically for her to talk some sort of sense into Gawx, or to go and activate the Oathgate regardless of what the higher ups say. But mostly I just want Lift for the sake of Lift. Also @72, Shallan and Lift interacting is something I’ve been looking forward to for a long time. I don’t know if it would ever work in the narrative, but my secret wish is for Shallan and Lift to have something of a sass off. Because they are the sassiest people ever, and yet their styles of sass are just so different- it would be fun to see the two styles come to a head. Not super likely, I know, but I still like to envision it.
Also, people talking about Dalinar’s boon and curse made me think of something that happened a few nights ago. The following is not important in any way to the story, it’s just something I thought was funny and thought I’d share. My blind roommate recently finished the Way of Kings at my insistence and is starting Words of Radiance. We started discussing Alethi politics in our apartment, and noted that I was the only darkeyes (as an aside, sometimes she jokingly calls me cremling now, and it’s great). She said something along the lines of, “I’m the only lighteyes in my family. And that’s only because of some twist of fate. Maybe I went to the NightWatcher and asked for light eyes.” I replied, “I can see it. You asked to have lighteyes, and she was like, ‘Okay, but they won’t work.'”
People have been inferring that Dalinar did not kill the child because Sanderson did not include the description in the chapter. While it could be that this is the truth, I would like to point to TWoK were we did not see the killing of Kaladins soldiers and his branding as a slave till the end of the book.
While they are not the same I am too cautious when reading a Sanderson book, having jumped to conclusions on several occasions and having the rug pulled out from under me. So I will heed Sanderson’s advise and wait, patiently, to RAFO.
@233 horses have rectangular pupils….
Regarding a marriage between Adolin and Aladar’s daughter. Do they ever mention if Aladar has a surviving son? If not, it is likely that whoever she marries will be Aladar’s heir. That would make it very unlikely that anyone would want the Kholins to have two Princedoms.
On the other hand, having a high princess could shake things up.
@233, 236:
I suppose this could be described as rectangular, but it looks more oval to me.
I know it is not true, but how would this be for a plot twist. Dalinar didn’t really kill the Heir, he spared him but exiled him or something so noone in the city would recognize him. Kid goes through a horrible life blah blah blah. He ends up being Odiums champion..
Re: Jasnah as Taravangian’s Radiant – A correction from my post@134, regarding where Jasnah appeared at the end of WoR. Brandon never states exactly where Jasnah appears, just that she’s in the middle of nowhere, at least a week away from civilization. I assumed she was near Alethkar due to Wit’s presence, but (since Hoid is full of surprises) they could conceivably be anywhere on Roshar. Having said that, I would still be surprised if Jasnah is the Radiant that Taravangian is talking about.
Re: Adolin’s Highprinceness – As mentioned above, Elhokar has required that Dalinar give up his lands to his heir, but the text states that the specifics need to be worked out with the scribes before the change is official. Once that occurs, Adolin will be Highprince of Kholinar; up until that point Dalinar and the King presumably have authority over him. Once he becomes Highprince, theoretically the King and the Law still have authority over him.
There is no evidence in the text of the Stormlight Archives (that I am aware of) that states that Highprinces can murder other Highprinces without fear of consequence. Whether the consequence is war between princedoms, duel, exile, death, fines, etc, we just don’t know yet. Unless there is actual in-book evidence that clarifies the consequences for Highprinces murdering one other, then any statement that claims otherwise is speculation based upon the perception/biases/desires of the reader. Which is fine, but it definitely shouldn’t be stated in these comments as if it were fact, or a given.
@214 -1) To me, phrases such as “many wondered” or “a lot of people say,” claim broad support without the burden of providing any proof of that support, so generally I tend to discount them (the joke here would be for me to then say that “many others” discount them too). 2) Aladar’s daughter is still a mystery for the reader, but any claims as to why Brandon has mentioned her multiple times so far in OB is just speculation, based on very limited textual evidence. 3) As for “we all expect Shallan to end up with Kaladin and not Adolin;” speaking just for myself, no, we do not all believe that, but I respect that you now do. 4) Finally, I still see no rationale for why Adolin would be forced to marry May when he becomes Highprince. If you claim there is no authority to hold “Highprince” Adolin accountable for murder, what authority would exist to force him to marry? Your stance on Highprince freedom from accountability would seem to contradict your belief that he could be forced to wed.
@232 – The Sunmaker is mentioned in 3 chapters in WoK (18, 24 & 29). He was supposedly involved in tearing down the Hierocracy, he was mentioned as the last king to unite Alethkar and he was rumored to be only 17 when he began his conquest. The Hierocracy likely believed him to be a heretic.
Alisonwonderland @210 & 216. Please do not include spoilers. When you (roll over for spoilers) contrast the released OB chapters with Unfettered II, that is a spoiler (@226). Also, mentioning that there will be a Renarian POV in a latter chapter is a spoiler (@210). I have not read Unfettered II and I will not as it would spoil what OB. It contains chapters in OB that have yet to be released.
If you have knowledge that Renarian has a POV chapter in an unpublished chapter in OB, that is a spoiler. IIRC, we have yet to have a Renarian POV chapter/section. If we do have such a chapter/section, I would like to be surprised when I read it. Please do not unintentionally spoil such a surprise. If you meant that we may find out more clearly if we get a future Renarian POV chapter, then edit your post accordingly. As it reads now, you make it seem like you have knowledge that there will be a Renarian POV chapter later on in OB.
Moderators — please white out Alisonwonderland’s posts accordingly.
Regards,
AndrewHB
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Random thought: If Dalinar didn’t kill the kid, will he show/did he show up one day and holding a shardblade out to Dalinar say, “My name is So-And-So. You killed my father. Prepare to die” ?
Preliminary thoughts on Chapter 12:
What an understatement! So far, the voidbringers have acted in ways I (and the people of Roshar, it seems) would not have expected. They refrained from slaughtering the people in the villages through which they have passed; their main objective at the moment, it seems, is to congregate at selected points, Kholinar among them. Elsewhere, they are stealing ships to give themselves naval capabilities, and it looks like with one stroke they have transformed themselves into the strongest naval power on the planet. They seem to be eschewing tactical objectives for broader strategic advantages. Clearly, someone or something is directing them, but who, and how?
———————————————————————————————-
Oh, Oh, Taravangian wants to come to Urithiru, where he’ll have access to Dalinar and the other radiants. That can’t be good.
It felt so good to read that Elokar came to Dalinar and swore an oaths to him. I had so wanted that to happen !
@@@@@ 31 I had to laugh, Spren free rooms please!
I’m hoping we get to see more of what is happening with Bridge Four. I realize that most of their story was through Kaladin’s VP and now that he is off on his own it makes sense that we don’t get to see much of what is going on within the Bridge Crew but I have to say I miss those guys. The scene with The Lopen learning finally that he can indeed glow is one of my favorites so far in the entire series. I hope we get so see their development.
I’m predicting that they get to join Elhokar and Kaladin as a precision special strike force and this is where we get to see more of what their “apprentice wind runner” effects are.
Nice moment between brothers but I’m starting to get a sneaking suspicion that Adolin is in store for one of two fates. He’s either going down the bad guy road, or the George RR Martin road. It seems Shallan and Kaladin are meant to end up together and there’s only one way that happens.
@214 – I don’t have any offical WoB or anything on high prince’s being punished, but I do think there is some type of consequences for them. Recall that in WoR, Sadeas was always very careful to have some kind of excuse for all his behavior. Everyone knew that in reality he was attempting to kill Dalinar, so why was he so careful to not just proudly admit it in front of everyone? I’m thinking that if hard proof emerges, something can be done about it – such as the king revoking his status, or appropriating his land, etc. even if he couldn’t just be executed or anything that drastic. Now whether Elhokar would decide to do that given the details, I don’t know. Most likely not, but perhaps if the politics were bad enough and he felt that he had to or his whole government would fall apart. That may be exactly what the copycat murder is designed to stir up if it was done by Ialai.
Renarin was healing Adolin, Truthwatchers have the surge of Regrowth which is apparently now manifesting itself in him, I wonder if it is conscious to him or if he doesn’t yet realize what he did for Adolin.
Truthwatchers and Lightweavers may very well utilize the Illumination surge differently. While Shallan can project images that she creates, Truthwatchers may create images of what they see or visions to those they interact with, that may be what Adolin experienced there. Not sure though.
The rules of Shardblade ownership have been set down in WOR. Even if the kid picks up the blade he doesn’t own it because it takes 5 days to bond it. Dalinar could have easily knocked the kid out and either forced the father to unbond the blade or killed him. Or is it outside the realm of possibility that a full grown warrior could not subdue a child with a sword without killing him? Plus, the Thrill responds to challenge. Killing a child doesn’t seem to evoke a challenge the Thrill would respond to.
The internal conflict Adolin’s murder of Sadeas is going to create for Dalinar is not going to be small, regardless of the politics. We have WoB that dalinar would punish Adolin if he knew (or so I think I remember being said here at various points) but picture is getting clear that Dalinar has done things at Adolin’s age, and younger, that pale in comparison. He might call it different because it was war not cold blood…but it was a war he helped start unprovoked and he knows very well what drove him wasn’t honorable, and he got away with it because those who might have critiqued him are dead–probably because he killed them. And all of that is the only reason he is where he is now. How can he condemn his son, knowing that? Yet how can he not, but convince those he would lead to follow his way, now that he has changed? Is changing enough to absolve him? He is being set up to grapple with that too, the conversation with kadish in an earlier chapter makes that clear. No matter how the political conflict shakes out when Adolin’s crime gets out, the internal conflict fir Dalinar is going to be is significant. This is Dalinar’s book, with his flashbacks, so Sadeas murder by his own son just at end of last book is no small coincidence of timing on the author’s part.
@251 writelhd
Adolin killed a grown man who had previously tried to murder Adolin’s father and had just finished declaring his intention to keep trying. Dalinar burned towns, enslaved their inhabitants, and took families as hostages. Adolin is, at worst, guilty of manslaughter, while Dalinar belongs in the Hague for crimes that don’t have a statute of limitations.
How can Dalinar sit in judgement of criminals when his own acts are so much worse? How can anything of worth be built on a foundation of innocent lives, of conquest without justification and victory without morality? Every sign so far suggests that Dalinar will have to confront his past, and I’m not sure he can continue to seek justice when his own choices merit death.
@222: Oh sorry for sounding so pessimistic. I am still unsure about the plot twist and what it means for future development. I would however argue Adolin doesn’t seem like he would become decent philosopher.
@234: I expected Renarin to heal Adolin and I expected it to be a “moment”. I just expected it would happen later within the story. I do not mind the development so far, except for the Highprince part, I was just slightly bothered by Elhokar being given what sounds like a very interesting story arc while Adolin was given one I really did not want him to have (the Highprince thing again). Obviously, it may unfold in a complete different manner than I am currently envisioning. And yeah, I do worry about future development, I worry everyone IS right about Adolin and he really CAN’T break.
@237: I do not recall anything about Aladar having a son, but I did wonder, tonight, if Dalinar will not try to marry off Adolin to a foreign woman in order to tie in political alliances…
@240: When I used these terms I usually meant I have often read commentaries about it, not necessarily here, but within the fandom and I heard them enough to consider “many wondered”. I can’t obviously quantify the number, but I try to state when the thoughts I am about to write are either my own, rare or of greater occurrence based on my personal interpretation. Of course, anyone is free to bypass it.
Agree about Aladar’s daughter, but my first thoughts were they would marry her to Adolin. I however agree it isn’t supported by textual evidence, just my personal hunch. Another hunch I had today, May will work on investigating the murder case, being the daughter of the Highprince of Information, and she’ll find the evidence tying Adolin to it.
I don’t want Kaladin to end up with Shallan, but it seems to me there is so much foreshadowing it may happen I have come to believe it seems more likely to happen. I have noted how Adolin seems to isolate himself, away from his family, away from Shallan and the last time he did this (well away from the girl part, not the family part) was with Mashala. He withdrew and she ended up dumping him, so I wondered if we aren’t seeing the first step of his defense mechanism when it comes to girls. I honestly hope to be wrong, but so many hints for Kaladin/Shallan so far.
When I said “forced to marry”, I did not mean force, force, but strongly encouraged? He will need a wife if he is to be the Highprince, so the pressure to take wife is likely to increase. If things fall down with Shallan, as I expect they will, then he family may suggest the next available girl which may turn out to be May because huh, she was mentioned often.
@248: What can be done to Highprinces currently is nebulous. So while it may be the king has this authority, I honestly wonder if the others will wish to see it apply. It seems a dangerous precedent to set: Highprinces ought not want the king to exercise this specific power.
@250: It isn’t as clear as you say. Kaladin owned Helaran’s Blade the second he killed him, but he refused to pick it up which caused the mayhem with Amaram. It is however heavily implied he was owning him and it was his to give away, even if he hadn’t bounded it yet. I am unsure how it works with the kid in the scene, but since Dalinar did not directly killed Tanalan (he seemed to have died from his wounds because he fell), then the Blade goes to his heir, the boy. So it may Dalinar needed to kill him to own the Blade else he’d be accused of having steeled it. I think.
And now everyone sees why the Beta read comments were 500,000+ words, just like the book.
:-D
This Adolin, Gallant, Renarin scenes is one of my favorite.
Re:dalanars “shame” I think that has nothing to do with his implied killing of the highlords heir, and more to do with the fact that he loves Navini
**
Well,” Dalinar said, “until you say something, I’m staying single.” The only woman he’d ever wanted belonged to Gavilar. They’d married—storms, they had a child now. A little girl.
His brother must never know how Dalinar felt.**
**
“We can’t just keep acting like a bunch of thugs,” Gavilar said. “We can’t rob every city we pass, feast every night. We need discipline; we need to hold the land we have. We need bureaucracy, order, laws, politics.”
Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?**
I believe those 2 quotes are connected with the city assault being only a brief interlude in the conversations
trimerion @@@@@ 255.
I can see why people have the idea that Dalinar’s “shame” could be thought to be because of his love for Navani, but to me the structure of the sentences don’t fit those thoughts; in my mind I mean. If it was written like this: Well,” Dalinar said, “until you say something, I’m staying single.” The only woman he’d ever wanted belonged to Gavilar. They’d married—storms, they had a child now. A little girl.
His brother must never know how Dalinar felt.
Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?
To me this sentence structure would indicate the progression of his thoughts being directed towards the Navani issue.
But because it is structured differently, it just doesn’t fit, to my way of thinking.
The way the text below is structured makes me believe that Dalinar’s shame has something to do with acting like a thug, or something of a political nature that he has been dishonest with Gavilar about.
“We can’t just keep acting like a bunch of thugs,” Gavilar said. “We can’t rob every city we pass, feast every night. We need discipline; we need to hold the land we have. We need bureaucracy, order, laws, politics.”
Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?**
I do wonder if he let the heir live and told Gavilar he had killed him. That makes more sense in ways if we look at it from the point of The Blackthorn letting the heir live and lying to his king? I don’t know, just thinking out loud, so to speak. :)
jack-macquire @91:
You are talking about webserials, and yes they exist on the internet. I just completed the webserial Worm by Wildbow (real name, John McCrae), and I can confidently say that it one of the most intense, gripping fantasy stories I’ve ever read. The entire story is 4,429 pages (about 4 times the size of WoR), and is all published online in chapters, with lots of discussion and comments by readers at the end of each installment. So it takes a good amount of time and commitment to finish it. If you are interested, google Worm by Wildbow to take you to the wormverse. You will also find lots of webserials still in progress if you look.
Chapter 10:
Funniest chapter in a long while. My family thought I was crazy with how much (and how loudly) I was laughing.
The parshmen are acting strangely indeed…so they took multiple forms, not just Stormform. But are they still under the thumb of their old gods, or is there some autonomy there?
Chapter 11:
Did Gavilar have visions before or after he started unifying Alethkar?
I was wondering why Dalinar felt compelled to kill the child, but the idea that he might have faked the child’s death makes sense too…
Chapter 12:
Negotiations between Azir and the Voidbringers? Will they give in?
Wow, this is the first chapter in which I have not hated Elhokar…I’m actually rooting for him! Hopefully Kaladin can teach him a trick or two. However, since he’s already headed to Kholinar, he probably won’t want to go back to the Shattered Planes to pick up Elhokar, so either Kaladin will do it all himself (and leave Elhokar sad ): ) or somehow Elhokar will find his own way there (via Szeth’s old blade, or perhaps Jasnah?)
Taravangian is definitely trouble…
@@@@@19, Taravangian is even willing to break the Knights Radiant again just to get control? That seems like it would be more damaging than helpful to their effort…
@@@@@30 & @@@@@33 I don’t think the woman is Dalinar’s wife, since his wife had Plate, and the lord of the city certainly didn’t have Plate.
@@@@@34 “Kaladin / Elhokar awkward roadtrip is something I didn’t realize I needed until now.” Yes. Same. Very much so.
@@@@@63 I LOVE THAT IDEA. However, going to Hearthstone is a long trip for those Parshendi, and it seems seem that the parshmen in Azir had various forms (some talked differently from others).
@@@@@69 Yes, I also thought that the “Radiant” might just have an honorblade, or even be a Herald
@@@@@98 Your comment made it seem like Adolin will “remember those who have been forgotten ;) ;) ;)” *cough EDGEDANCER cough*
@@@@@ people talking about Sylblade, I was sure it had been mentioned in Oathbringer before, but it wasn’t, so maybe I’ve just read it in fan forums? Can anyone with the WoR ebook check if it was used there?
@@@@@216 Re: Adolin healed himself, I hadn’t considered that, but it makes sense, since proto-radiants can heal themselves even before they start speaking oaths. Damn, Renarin is even smarter than I gave him credit for!
I can’t shake the feeling something is wrong here. Something is not what it seems. So far parshmen have not attacked, just ran away in every town we know of, except for Azir, whose statements seem questionable anyway. Parshendi seem like sad, broken, outnumbered people. I just can’t see them as bloodthirsty monsters. What worries me is the Thrill within Dalinar. There is more emphasis on the Thrill now. When Dalinar fought one of his opponents in previous chapters, there was a mention of this foe being horrified looking into Dalinar’s eyes. Now we know someone is speaking with him during the battles.
What if…
Dalinar IS the champion of Odium. The Thrill is the voice of Odium. The nine shadows are nine of the Kingdoms or Oathgates. The reason Radiants broke their oaths is because they realized they were fighting for the wrong side… Their leaders, the Heralds, seem to come out of hell to fight. Doesn’t seem like they are the agents of good. I haven’t worked out all the kinks in my theory. Just wanted to throw some ideas out there.
I find it very interesting that the Shardblade, “Oathbringer” still hasn’t been found from where Adolin threw it. I think Brandon likes titles that have multiple meanings, so while Oathbringer is about the in-world book, it is also about bringing new oaths to the people of Roshar, but perhaps a central part theme will also be the fate of the Shardblade Oathbringer. In the very least Adolin should be wondering what happened to it, Is it still where he left it? Did somebody find it? If so, he is responsible for allowing a very powerful weapon to fall into the hands of some unknown.
Dalinar married Shshshs for her Sharplates? Is that somehow a misspelling and it’s actually Sharblade??
Draped accross Tanalan’s unconcious body was a beautiful woman.. is it so far fetch a theory if that was Shshshs?
@256 spiritwalker
I hear what you are saying and your insights are good however to me this feels like a long standing conversation and point of contention between the brothers, Gavilar does not know how Dalinar feels about Navini at this point in the story.
Dalinar feels a certain amount of shame because he wants to be with Navini and is quite jealous of his brother because she chose Gavilar over Dalinar.
On the other hand Gavilar is pushing Dalinar to marry because he sees how “lonely” is brother is without a partner, without realising how his brother really feels about the woman he has taken as his wife
Gepeto @253
There are formalized rules made by people when it comes to blade ownership and there are bonds. Mostly they coincide but sometimes they don’t. In the Kaladin example you mentioned, sure it was supposed to be his blade. By the rules established by man the blade was supposed to go to him. But it isn’t truly his blade unless he bonds it. The bond doesn’t automatically transfer to another. And it is possible to pick up and use a blade that isn’t bonded to you. Adalar, one of the highprinces, often lets his guardsmen use his blade in battle but if he wanted he could summon the blade right out of that guard’s hands whenever he wished. There are only 2 ways to break the blade bond, voluntary release or death. Even then, the new user must take the 5 days necessary to bond the blade in order for it to belong to them.
While it’s true that I don’t like the idea of the Blackthorn killing kids, it is indeed possible that he did. But people can hold out hope that the child (and possibly the mother) walked away from that cave because Dalinar did not have to kill the kid to gain the Shardblade. And we can all question what happened because it happened off screen. Remember that although he held Oathbringer after the battle he had not yet bonded it.
Dalinar married for Adolin’s Plate
@58 OH storms. Why do I feel like Taravangian getting the Honorblade is exactly what’s going to happen..
Gepeto @170:
It seems to me that once again you are making unsubstantiated and unsupported statements that arise solely from your own imagination and stating them as fact. I’ll withdraw this statement and issue an apology if you can provide textual evidence that Gavilar was becoming a Bondsmith.
@266 – Presumably anyone who bonds the Stormfather ends up a bondsmith, and the visions Gavilar was having were the first step in that process. Plus he did seem to be focused on uniting Alethkar, and uniting people seems to be one of the goals they focus on. I think what you’re getting at is that he wasn’t very far along in that process compared to where Dalinar is now, but it had started. All he had to do was state the oaths, he just didn’t know what they were.
@266 Alisonwonderland
Gavilar was stated to be on the path of the Bondsmiths via WoB.
INTERVIEW: Dec 3rd, 2016
Little City Books-AU Tour (Paraphrased)
TED HERMAN
Has Dalinar been on the bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes to both.
Its on theoryland if you liked to double check under the bondsmith tag.
I am gradually reading down through the comments, and I’ve finally come to my own thoughts that I posted while reading each chapter, only to find the entirety of my thoughts on Chapters 10 (post #210) and 11 (#226) whited out for spoilers!
Post #210.
I am gobsmacked that anything I wrote in post #210 can be considered a spoiler. Spoiler of what? I am not a beta reader, and I have no prior knowledge of anything in the book. Whatever I wrote in #210 are questions that came to mind directly arising from the contents of the chapter, as should be obvious to anyone who reads the post. I challenge whichever moderator who whited the entirety of post 210 to point out to me which parts of the post are spoilers. Use pm if you have to.
Post #226 (roll over for potential spoilers):
True, that I mentioned Unfettered II and indicated that the story presented there is less detailed than the one in Oathbringer, but I didn’t mention any particulars of the story itself that could be different. I don’t consider mere knowledge that a similar story exists in Unfettered II to be a ‘spoiler’, but if the consensus among posters is that even such knowledge is a spoiler, so be it. I don’t mind it being whited out.
But I really object to my mentioning the fact that Renarin has a later POV being considered a spoiler. It is common knowledge, repeated ad nauseam by Brandon himself, that Renarin has a book in the second set of 5 books that make up the back end of the Stormlight Archive, just as Brandon has made known that the next two books will feature Eshonai and Szeth as the flashback characters. Brandon has indicated that we will have limited exposure to Renarin in the first half of the Stormlight Archive because his detailed development will occur later in the series, How can repeating this be a spoiler for Oathbringer when they have absolutely nothing to do with what happens in this book? Again, I challenge the moderator to point out how this part of the post is a spoiler, by pm if necessary, or to remove the whitening.
AndrewHB @@@@@ 241:
So it was you. Do you mind sending me a pm explaining what parts of my post #210 constitute spoilers? I have already explained above my comments on post #226.
Lexoj @@@@@ 268, thank you for enlightening me. Gepeto @@@@@170, please accept my apologies.
ooh fiery comments, However please don’t stop commenting people I’m waiting to grab that 3rd hunny
@Alisonwonderland. Hi I would respectfully suggest that you don’t take these posts so seriously. Calling out a moderator in bold? Not necessary. If it ruffled your feather that is understandable, however just scroll by and carry on. Also making an argument then saying you will apologize if it is proven wrong, which it promptly was, is kind of silly. Save yourself the apology and word it differently, i would suggest again. Obviously you will do what you will but I think it will be beneficial to you and the vibe of the thread.
Also, dissecting Gepeto’s comments like that? It really isn’t beneficial to this thread. some of his comments kind of were like “umm, not sure.” to me but that’s what makes this thread interesting. Just because he states opinions in the form of “many have wondered” blah blah doesn’t mean the other readers on the thread are going to blindly take his word for it and then change their views. It’s the book we should spend time dissecting, not each other!
I was not aware of the WoB stating Gavilar was on his way to a bondsmith as well, that is a cool tidbit to put Dalinar’s progression in prospective.
Thanks and much love
I get not really caring that Sadeas was murdered…. but before the second murder, there wasn’t any concern that there could be a MURDER in camp who now has a Shard Blade……
Alisonwonderland – Please see my comments @241 explaining what portion of @210 I thought was a spoiler. FWIIW, I thought that at most, only 1 or 2 sentences were spoilers. The moderators decided to white out most of @210. I suppose they would rather white out more language than not enough. I cannot complain about such a strategy. They also whited out my explanation in @241 as to what I thought was a spoiler. In such a situation, I think it is better to be over cautious than under cautious.
Regards,
AndrewHB
First of all, please keep the tone of your comments civil, whether responding to other commenters or to the moderation team. And in terms of whiting out potential spoilers: having sections of text whited out is not a punishment of any sort–we simply try to err on the side of caution when comments are repeated flagged or called out as spoilers and it’s unclear to us what the exact problem is. There are a lot of comments and a lot of discussions to keep track of, and it’s not always immediately clear what the problem is when comments are flagged, so thanks in advance for your patience and help in these matters.
AndrewHB@274 is a Kandra – If you need Proof you can see ‘it’ forgot the “aka the musespren”
And from that proven theory we can conclude that Earth is actually in the Cosmere and I speculate the dark one cosmere novel we are expecting will actually turn out to be Alcatraz’s son who will doom earth but save the cosmere by killing odium in a nuclear war.
Calling it now
@276 – LOL.
Haven’t read all of the comments yet so don’t know what theories are out there but here is mine. Dalinar is going to give king E the honor blade (that will tick off Adolin) and Kaladin King E and a group of squires will go to Kholinar. Elkohar will start the trip as his bumbling self but will learn from kal and come back a much stronger king and a better man.
Some how Adolin falls from grace, not sure how, maybe the deal with the honor blade/murder of sadaes. If Kaladin is the radiant champion, Adolin is the only one we know of that could stand up to him in a duel and possibly win. That also frees up shallan for kaladin (giving us 2 spren on the headboard!).
Sorry for grammar and punctuation, I’m typing on my phone.
Alisonwonderland – check your messages.
@many – I’m amused (?) at how many people are finding ways to throw Adolin under the bus chull cart re: Shallan, just because Syl says Kaladin likes her. Does she have no choice in the matter?
@280 I will continue to hope for a sensible triad solution to this apparent love triangle. Why should Shallan settle for only one of the wonderful men? Why shouldn’t these wonderful men be together, too?
Leilatha @258 I did a search of WoR for Sylblade and Syl blade, and the closest phrase I could find is “he summoned Syl as a blade” in chapter 87
@279 Wetlandernw – When reading WOR I was actually a little irritated when I realized that Kaladin could have some feelings for Shallan. Now I am hoping that Shallan ends up with Adolin, and that Kaladin has to use his “rejection” in this as a spur for character growth.
@279: Truth is I have been expecting Adolin to be thrown under the bus… Also, I have lost track of how many “What will happen to Adolin” conversations there has been onto the fandom. So huh there are quite a lot of fan theories which are just sitting there waiting to see if they will fall close to the truth… or not. Every single character’s potential reaction, what factions may think, Dalinar’s reaction, everything has been analysed in far too much detail.
So yeah, as I said in a previous comment, I am WAITING for the gun to fire. I expect poor Adolin to be rolled over by the bus: I am just unsure who will push him there. I always thought it would be Dalinar, but looks like he surrendered his right to disowned/punish his son (I always thought Adolin would force Dalinar to grow, but the story so far has had no valid father/son interactions, it focused all on Elhokar). So I’ll have to keep on reading, but something has to happen to Adolin… He can’t just walk away with it. Unfortunately, being Highprince does seem as he was given an easy way out. We’ll see.
About Renarin: I found an argument to support those believing Renarin knows about Adolin… Anyone noticed his reaction after healing Adolin? It didn’t seem as if he did it on purpose. He promptly and quietly apologized for what he did (though I suspect he does not even know), then he rushes away… Why is Renarin so troubled over what was a rather sweet moment. He healed Adolin, so why he is scurrying away?
Did he see something? Did touching Adolin and transferring stormlight to him somehow enabled him to see something about Adolin? Adolin saw himself, a better self, but what did Renarin see? Did he see broken Adolin or did he see what he has been hiding?
Wetlandernw @279 asked “I’m amused (?) at how many people are finding ways to throw Adolin under the buschull cart re: Shallan, just because Syl says Kaladin likes her. Does she have no choice in the matter?”
If you asked Shallan this question before she killed her father and left her manor, Shallan would have said no. It was her father’s choice (or her oldest surviving male “guardian.” I think since then, Shallan has evolved her philosophy and would probably want to enter into a relationship/marriage of her own choosing.
You (perhaps unintentionally) raise an interesting – and topical – question (based on Syl’s and Kaladin’s conversation in Chapter 10). What happens if a spren does not approve its KR’s partner/spouse? Will the spren learn to live with it. Would the spren and KR disagree so much as to have the Nahel bond start to fray? Would the KR get so fed up with the spren and/or the spren get so fed up with the KR that one or both intentionally release the Nahel bond?
Wait a minute. Do we even know if a spren and/or KR can voluntarily release the Nahel Bond? In the same way that a holder of a dead spren Shardblade can break the bonding between the Blade holder and the Blade. For example, what happens if the KR is too old and does not want the spren to experience the KR’s death while still subject to the Nahel bond. When humans die (as Syl noted in WoR), their spirit/soul separates from their bodies (becomes two separate things). Other object/things/spren just change forms.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Since Way of Kings, Adolin has been under the shadow of his father. For Adolin to have real character development, he would need to leave the Shattered Plains/Urthi….
Following are my own speculations. I don’t read World of Brandon or the Wiki or whatever else is out there. I only read the novels. Please don’t school me on the other sources out there in webland. I’m not interested in them. I want to enjoy the novels as standing alone.
I anticipate more copycat murders agitating Adolin and either because others’ discover he killed Sadeas or (a new thought for me) his revulsion of not being the perfect man he wants to be, Adolin will be banished by his father or move to self exile.
He will then have is 40 days in the desert; questioning himself, facing temptations, enduring strife, traveling the world blah blah blah. To one day return to unite Roshar as a Radiant. This will take many books. ;). I’m now thinking Dalinar could be Odium’s champion. Mmmmmm
Shallan has much more to ponder than who to marry. She has a double life with Veil which hasn’t even been reignited yet. There are plenty of books to expand that storyline. She surely feels affection for sweet Adolin and is interested in broody Kaladin. It is very fun talking about the threesome! She’ll have to reconsider her standing with both when she finds out both have secrets. But remember that Jasnah is her idol. I think she will unconsciously follow Jasnah in this and stay single. Especially as her involvement with the Ghostbloods expands/responsibilities as a Radiant increases.
I don’t think any of the triangle will marry anyone. But they will face the Desolations together. I’ll be rooting for them to win!!!!!
Jonah @285. I believe, but am not mistaken, that any WoB is treated as canon. It has the same effect as if the statement were written in a published text. Theories on wiki pages or other forums (e.g. Coppermind, 17th Shard, etc) are just that – fan speculation. Some may eventually be proven to be true; some may not.
That said, there is no requirement for you to find and absorb all WoB. I merely wanted to point out that WoB due carry great weight. Assuming, of course, my initial statement is correct. If it is not, it is another example of me sticking my foot in my mouth.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@286 I think they are “canon” unless contradicted by the text. While I’m sure Sanderson is careful about what he says, he still needs room for revision.
I got off to a slow start and then overwhelmed catching up on comments. My beliefs for the major points discussed:
Dalinar did not kill the young boy. He was distracted in the conversation with Gavilar, hence his out of order thoughts on feeling guilty.
I wouldn’t call it a trope to build tension then cut away with ambiguity. I call that getting off on being withholding (obviously BS is a Mama Bluth fan). The trope would be if the merciful reprieve for the child leads him to a life’s mission of revenge.
Syl’s apprentice wind spren form the shardplate. Wind spren don’t talk, so they don’t scream.
Adolin will soon be an Edgedancer. He will Remember his blade and in saying the words s/he will revive (similar to Syl in WoR) and be his bonded spren.
I really thought Lift was on the way when the span reed mentioned a Radiant opening an oathgate to visit Urithiru before it was revealed to be T instead of Gawx. What a reversal of feeling!
Elhokar going to Alethkar, that’s what has me concerned.
He’s a shimmering, glowing star in then lighteyes firmament in comparison to how well his spouse governed that city.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. For me, this puts Elhokar atgreater risk for interpersonal disaster than moping about in his personal rooms.
But I’m a pessimist so maybe it will have a happy ending what with Kaladin there and all. Competing cultural interests aside. And love interests. And Windrunner oath interests. And who am I kidding? I think it’s going to go south on Dalinar.
It would be nice if he caught a break.
Moderator: The website won’t take my grammar edits.
And for all of you reaching for the hunny, I offer this inspirational video.
https://youtu.be/DuDTgFF14B8
@288
I really thought Lift was on the way when the span reed mentioned a Radiant opening an oathgate to visit Urithiru before it was revealed to be T instead of Gawx. What a reversal of feeling!
I’m soooooooo with you on that. Reversal of feeling indeed!
@9 Regrowth works by syncing the physical form with the spiritual (filtered through the cognitive). My thought on this is that perhaps Adolin briefly saw through to the spiritual realm and glimpsed a perfected version of himself.
@291, CireNaes – LOL!
@286, AndrewHB –
Canon and WoB – Noblehunter is closer to the truth @287.
Per Peter Ahlstrom at JordanCon 9 2017. Behind the Scenes with Karen and Peter Ahlstrom of Dragonsteel. Quote from transcript below.
BT – stands for Billy Todd, the director of the Sanderson Track.
Curses. I thought my first post was eaten by Tor. Then a refresh brought it.
Oh well, closer to the 3rd hunny for someone.
@294 I’m sure I said “even keeled” there. And I have no idea what “social path” from BT is supposed to be!
@289 CireNaes
I too am worried about Elhokar making a trip to Kholinar. There are so many ways that that trip could go sourh on him and lead him down the wrong path. Especially if there is love between him and his queen and he finds out that she is maybe dead or in league with one of the factions against Dalunar
@288 rrcampbe
I still think the Radiant with King T is going to be Jasnah. I can’t wait to see her in this book. The reunion scene with Navani is going to be EPIC
@297
Yeah, everyone’s concerned about Taravangian, but he’s a known entity for the reader. Elhokar can go in any direction since he comes off a consistently fickle and paranoid.
I am hopeful though.
And I want Adolin to revive his blade, but we can’t always get what we want.
Braid_Tug @295. Thanks for the clarification. I stand partially corrected.
I have 2 theories. I think the first is more plausible than the 2nd (25% for my 1st theory; 0.5% chance for my 2nd theory). I am not sure, from a storytelling perspective if I want my 1st theory to happen.
My first theory requires a caveat. I do not have the books with me at the moment, My theory is based upon something that the Diagram said. If I am wrong, than that will invalidate my theory. I thought I remember reading that the Diagram said if the Blackthorn sues for peace with the Parshendi, then King T should have him assassinated. If he acts as the warlord, Dalinar will make a useful ally. This could mean that so long as Dalinar talked about making peace with the Parshendi, then he needs to be killed. However, the Everstorm had the effect of the Alethi winning the war. Or viewed differently, there is no chance the Alethi and the KR will sue for peace with the Parshendi/Voidbringers. As a result, King T can now be an ally (at least as of his spanreed conversation in Chapter 12). If I am correct, he may be coming to U as a full-fledged ally.
To be clear, I think my theory is unlikely. SA seems to have multiple factions, most of which cannot be 100% classified as the traditional villain/antagonist. Each group thinks their way is the best to save mankind and/or defeat the “bad guys”. Having the Diagramists team up with the KR’s would create one less group and lessen the chaos somewhat.
My second theory is that Dalan (one of Adolin’s many former girlfriends and a known collaborator against Elhokar) is the KR that King T mentions in his message to Dalinar. We never found out if she was a Diagramist like Graves or merely a “patriot” (Graves’ word) who did not know of the Diagram. Although it is unlikely that Brandon would have such a character be a KR with no apparent foreshadowing, it is not impossible. (I say apparent because sometimes what an author thinks is apparent is not apparent to the author’s fan base — Cough Cough, Robert Jordan: who in WoT killed a character in book 5 and did not reveal the killer’s identity until book 13; but yet maintained that the killer’s identity should be clear from the 1st 5 books.)
I think that by the end of Book 5, there will be a significant number of KRs (at least enough to make a significant difference in united forces’ fight against Odium). Ok. This is my 3rd theory of this post. But this third theory is something that I think is likely to happen at some point.
Feel free to tell me that my first two theories have no chance of happening. But if you do, remember that in the last 16 years, the Red Sox, White Sox and Cubs all won at least one world series. Most, if not all of the readers of SA were not born when the Red Sox, Cubs or White Sox won a world series before the turn of the 21st century.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
@291 – your video is especially funny seeing as how you ended up snagging it (with a double post, no less!)
@296, Peter – I’m sure you said that now too. I’ll have to re-listen to the recording to figure out the “social path” was. Maybe “social media”?
@300 – Congratulations!
Sanctimoniously delicious.
Got super excited because the top of the thread said 298 comments and I thought “this is my moment. The hunny is mine”…then I scroll down and we are at 303. Such is life I suppose
Also this thread got fiery for a minute…super fun to read. Glad everyone seems to keep a level head around here even with the occasional disagreement or misunderstanding.
Anyway…theory time.
I definitely am in the camp that thinks Dalinar didn’t kill the kid and this is what comes back to bite him later. I think the kid grows up resenting him, ends up kidnapping his wife, and this leads to the second rift event. I am pretty sure that Dalinar is going to butcher the whole city and that leads Kadash to become an ardent and Dalinar to seek out the Nightwatcher.
Also (this rift chapter can’t be what Kadash references because he specifically mentions Dalinar’s wife being kidnapped and that obviously hasn’t happened yet)
Am I the only one that feels a little bummed that (thus far) we haven’t gotten to see much Kaladin? I feel like at the end of Words of Radiance, Kaladin was finally the hero I’d been waiting for him to become since Way of Kings, and (besides the chapter with Kal in the manor) I haven’t been excited about anything he’s done yet. Here’s to hoping next Tuesday has some Kal to it!
Gepeto @@@@@ 283
Every single character’s potential reaction, what factions may think, Dalinar’s reaction, everything has been analysed in far too much detail. Ya think?
That is exactly what I love about this forum and I presume a big part of why it is here. The more people who comment and offer suppositions, the merrier. It keeps interest alive in the book, in the character’s story lines and makes me think and consider other possibilities, other than just my own focused point of view. It helps me to have input from other readers, even if I don’t agree with them.
I read every comment and sometimes go back and read them again just to make sure I haven’t missed something important. In doing that I have realized that I have missed important clues the first time around. I for one am glad of all the analysis that is being done by all the readers.
:)
Peter & BraidTug – it was supposed to be sociopath. There’s a small correction to the rest of the sentence that makes it make sense, but clearly I never sent my correction back….
Andrew HB @301
I do kind of like the idea of them teaming up -maybe mostly because I can see Dalinar being killed off but not T at this point. But, I’ve been thinking about that bit from the diagram. I thought that it didn’t refer to just the parshendi but it is relations to the rest of Roshar/alethkar.
“”Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.””
The risk of competition is to great. Another part of the Diagram says that T needs to become king of everything, we already have Elokar swearing fealty to Dalinar. It seems to me that Dalinar is suing for peace with the other nations and trying to consoldate power in Alethkar, by doing this he is putting himself in completion with T’s goals.
So I’m thinking Dalinar is stll in danger of assasination.
Back to the transcript thing: (@294, 296, 304, 308) I think what Billy said was
At least that’s what I heard.
@CireNaes 291
That’s perfect! ROFLMAO!
Congrats on the hunny. You just beat me out of it! I’ve been #198 or #298 three times now. I’ll try to be Indiana not Elsa, but I’m gonna keep reaching for it
@306: Kaladin has had plenty of screen time so far. He has had three long chapters back to back. So within 10 chapters which weren’t flashbacks, 3 were Kaladin’s, 2 were Shallan’s, 5 were Dalinar’s. And yeah, Kaladin and Shallan had to share one of their chapter with Adolin. I think the story has done great in keeping tabs with all major characters so far.
@307: I might have under-stated it… Far too much was given into those analysis, but this is what makes reading those books so fun.
Gepeto @@@@@ 312
I hear you! I wasn’t meaning to be judgemental and if I came across that way, I do apologize. Like I said, it does help me so I am tickled to get everyone’s point of view to consider.
Radiant spotting here but I’ll do it quickly as I have to go out soon
Taravangian’s Radiant. Who? For real?
Speaking of the kid’s fate, I think that this quote from Dalinar’s flashback is significant:
“Both feelings seemed stark, now that the Thrill had receded and left him deflated.”
Those feelings being pain and shame. So, the Thrill helped him cope with shame – which, IMHO, doesn’t compute with him sparing the boy and feeling ashamed for doing so. The Thrill doesn’t inspire mercy or make you feel good about it.
And also, Gavilar wasn’t happy with the killing and would have preferred if the heir and maybe even Tanalan himself were alive, so why would Dalinar have felt ashamed if the child had survived? Why not tell his brother the good news?
Re: Dalinar’s negotiations – I don’t share their conviction that the Oathgates couldn’t have been rendered non-functional, even if they were revered monuments, parts of palaces, etc. Wouldn’t the removal of giant spheres needed to power/control it accomplish just that? And something like that could have easily happened during a war or a financial crisis. Without knowing exactly which spheres are needed, it would be pretty impossible to repair. If crucial fabrial are missing, it would be even worse.
I am also sceptical that having a part of the palace on the transportation platform wouldn’t put a crimp into the process, leave alone the fact that the Oathgate control chamber may have been damaged due to renovations and rebuildings.
Accoring to the Azish re: Voidbringers:
“ ‘But some are different—stronger, with strange powers. They do not speak like the others.’ ”
This supports my idea that storm-formed Parshendi were somehow transported by the Everstorm so that they could take control of newly transformed parshmen, who don’t have the necessary skills/experience to do things that they seem to be doing. And didn’t Dalinar see/feel malevolent red eyes within Everstorm via the Stormfather?
Hm, is Azish capital where newly enlightened Nale has flown to after Lift managed to straighten him out?
In the last installment, Chapters 7-9 we had this:
“Tezim,” Navani said. “Claims he’s an aspect of the Almighty.”
This is the new king/warlord of Tukar. Any thoughts as to who he could be? My mind immediately went to Kelsier, for some reason (well, he could actually claim it with some truth, because former shard vessels remained slivers), but could it be an ex-Herald? Ishar, for instance? Or some other world-hopper?
CireNaes@300
Double postin’ is cheatin’. Flag on the play!
@312: I agree, to a point; I guess what I really meant was, it seemed like at the end of Radiance, Kaladin was going to be flying right into the eye of the storm and we’d see him get to fight on unequal footing (a Radiant vs newly formed Stormform parshmen), whereas everyone else would be doing… Well, exactly what they are doing: organizing for the next Desolation.
Granted, I’m pretty pleased with getting to see the Blackthorn in all his glory, but (I think intentionally) those scenes are also kind of off-putting. Dalinar used to be freaking scary.
I agree with @315 Isilel: it does not make sense for Dalinar to feel guilty for not having murdered the kid. It does not make sense he wouldn’t want to tell Gavilar. Who would be ashamed of having spared a boy of 6?
The Kholins weren’t great people, they were warmongers and their war, it doesn’t look as if it were justified. It does seem it sprouted from Gavilar’s self-inflated ego: boys thinking they could rule the world and upon realizing they might just achieve it, stroke to actually do it. Maybe there was some more noble objective to it, such as creating a more solid and better kingdom for the people, but the slaughtering they agreed to do basically turned them into conquerors. Still, despite all this, I did not get the Kholins were the kind of people who’d kill women and children. They would rape the women, pillage towns, feast onto the graves of others, but slay children? This seems one step too far.
Hence, it makes no sense, to me at least, Dalinar should feel any guilt towards having spared a boy. It also isn’t consistent with the Thrill: the Thrill, as far as we can tell, makes you want to take a challenge. We see it in Dalinar’s flashbacks how he wants to be challenged, how he wants to prove he is strong, we see how the Thrill makes him yearn for these things, makes him look for them and create occasions for them to arrive. We also saw it with Adolin back in WoR when the Thrill pushes him to climb a cliff while standing on his Blade, a move he’d never dare to do had his father been watching. When Eshonai tries to talk to him, the Thrill wants him to fight her, to challenge her, the Thrill demands it and he had to fight it down, he had to force himself not to listen to it because his father would want a chance at parley. Later, when he fights on the Plateau, one of his men says he could perhaps attempt at climbing the cliff. It is then Adolin realizes the Thrill isn’t there and he wondered where is it to force him to do it, to push him towards foolishness.
Thus, all examples we have of characters experiencing the Thrill, both Dalinar and Adolin, do tell us it makes people bold, mindless. It makes them want to take a challenge, to request this challenge, to fight.
It does not make them compassionate. It does make them merciful. It blocks all rational thinking.
It is why I do believe Dalinar did kill the boy.
@318 Because that boy will be nothing but trouble for the Kholins, all the moreso because everyone thinks he’s dead. If he did pretend to kill him and let him go, then Dalinar has given his brother the worst of both choices. That warrants shame, I think.
Noble hunter @319
I think so too. I think the shame that Dalinar feels would not be for mercifully letting the child live but for deceiving his brother.
I would argue that Dalinar does have motivation for that deception because Gavilar or Sadeus may have pushed for killing the heir. We know that Sadeus has been “pushing Gavilar towards greater brutality.” And while Gavilar is now saying that they will fight him for years for killing the heir, Sadeus may have been able to convince him that the chance of a successful revolt may be substantially decreased by eliminating the heir since the people wouldn’t have one person to rally behind and it would also be a lesson to the rest of the High Princes.
Also, what’s the time line here.
The rift chapter is 33 years ago.
Adolin is 20?
Adolins mother died when he was 5?
so Adolins mother died 15 Years ago
the boy is 6 or 7 (33 years ago)
so at the time Adolins mother dies the boy, if still alive, would be 24.
So it sounds plausibility that he could have been the reason behind Shhshhshh’s death. “The last words we hear the boy say are “we’ll fight him father” -could be a bit of foreshadowing there.
A few thoughts I haven’t seen brought up yet. (I may have missed them)
1. So does the Everstorm carry non-Odium spren? It doesn’t seem likely that the parshmen could have had enough captive spren to make that many warform transformations in the unforeseen highstorm. Does an Everstorm induced warform mean they are still under Odium’s control. Unless the few rebels who ran away from Eshonai were able to get the word out but still seems unlikely.
2. If Thaylenah was warned by New Natanan about the Everstorm, why didn’t word get to the other nations? Having a second witness to Dalinar’s warnings would have been very helpful.
3. RE: the author of Oathbringer preface. I’m thinking it is Eshonai. People will be threatened that a Parshman, Parshendi, Voidbringer, can write and wrote a book. Most don’t think it should exist. Parshendi/Voidbringers could be considered ‘godless heretics.’ by humans. People thought she fell at the end of the battle. I’m guessing something happened between all the storms, wearing shardplate, that she was able to overcome the voidspren and saw into Shadesmar. The book she writes will certainly have been brewing since her explorations in her youth.
I think we’re supposed to assume it’s Jasnah, but there will be the twist that Brandon loves to pull.
Gepeto @@@@@ 318
I must have still been half asleep when I read Tuesday’s chapters. The conversation between Gavilar, Sadeas, and Dalinar regarding marriage happened before the battle at Rift. If you check the text, they were basically waiting for the sun to come up and were talking about it then. So I stand corrected. Obviously Dalinar would not feel remorse of not killing the child.
Updated at 12:40 pm
There is something else I am thinking about. I have been at the stormlight archive wikia reading and I came across this information about the thrill.
Nergaoul’s power was once bound to the proximity around Alethkar, but with Taravangian’s conquest of Jah Keved, it is moving further west.
Source: http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Nergaoul#cite_note-Rwori14-0
This leads me to believe that there is some connection between Nergaoul, the thrill, and Taravangian. He became king of Jah Keved and the effect of the thrill spreads out to cover more territory? Hmmm,
Ryan @320 – Not sure where you got the idea that Adolin’s mother died when he was five. She died about ten years ago, according to TWoK.
OK, something that has been floating around in my mind due to the debate on the “shame” parts of the flashback. I have a feeling that it isn’t as complicated as some are making it out to be, but could be easily overlooked by people trying to see something “deeper” in the passage.
I think that we are already starting to see the change in Dalinar away from the mindless brute reputation he had properly gained. Some of the things he had done were starting to bother him without the prodding of the Thrill.
These are the passages I think apply:
“A few hours later, Dalinar sat on the edge of the Rift, his legs swinging over the broken city below. His new Shardblade rested across his lap, his Plate—deformed and broken—in a heap beside him. His arms were bandaged, but he’d chased away the surgeons.
He stared out at what seemed an empty plain, then flicked his eyes toward the signs of human life below. Dead bodies in heaps. Broken buildings. Splinters of civilization.”
…
“Gavilar grunted. “This attack nearly cost us too much. Sadeas is saying we need to be more careful, not risk ourselves and our Shards in solitary assaults.”
“Sadeas is smart,” Dalinar said. He reached gingerly with his right hand, the less mangled one, and raised a mug of wine to his lips. It was the only drug he cared about for the pain—and maybe it would help with the shame too. Both feelings seemed stark, now that the Thrill had receded and left him deflated.”
…
“Growing up, Dalinar had simply assumed that his brother would always be right in whatever he said or did. Aging hadn’t much changed his opinion of the man.”
…
““Sadeas is smart,” Dalinar said. He reached gingerly with his right hand, the less mangled one, and raised a mug of wine to his lips. It was the only drug he cared about for the pain—and maybe it would help with the shame too. Both feelings seemed stark, now that the Thrill had receded and left him deflated.”
…
“Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out?”
…
“He walked away. Dalinar rammed the Shardblade into the stone and leaned back, closing his eyes again and remembering the sound of a brave boy crying.”
In this train of thought, the “thing” that Dalinar is worried about Gavilar finding out is not what he did. As has been mentioned in other posts, Gavilar already knows that. What Gavilar wouldn’t know is that Dalinar is starting to feel guilty about the things he has been doing. He hasn’t become an instant saint, but the death and mayhem, particularly the murder of a child, are starting to bother Dalinar. Yet these things have been done to support the brother Dalinar practically worships.
As another topic, I have started to consider the “black spren” in the stones that Gavilar had. There have been people tying those to the Unmade, which sounds reasonable to me, but what about what has happened to them since the assassination? We know that one was given to the parshendi. The other was given to Szeth.
We don’t know what happened to them after that. It is reasonable that both parties hid them. Could this cause the “migration” of the Thrill? How about the sudden “fading” of the Death Rattles that were mentioned in earlier book?
Could this be tied to the movements of those “dark spren”?
@323
While Nergaoul might be causing the Thrill I think it’s more likely that he causes the Death Rattles, as Taravangian has been using them and he mentioned that the death rattles were less common
Wetlandernw @324
Yeah your right, good catch. I was just going off what I seemed to remember for those two (hence why I put a question mark at the end of those two lines).
I found the reference from wok ” .. besides, what of his own wife, dead these ten years”
and Adolins age looks likely to have been 12 at the time since he was 22 in WOR. There’s a line that says he Had not yet reached his 23rd birthday(aka he’s 22).
So 10 years ago the kid (of not dead) is 29. Seems unlikely that the guy would wait that long for his revenge, but could be. Personally I think he’s still alive. It could be that Sanderson was sparring us the bloody details but as others have pointed out He could have been direct without being explicit.
We’ll find out for sure when we get the chapter on how Dalinar’s wife died, it’s got to be coming :) hopefully that chapter isn’t near the end of the book.
Btw, Is it Tuesday yet?
@217 Torrance
Dalinar was indeed freaking scary! So scary that Navani said that was why she chose to marry Gavilar instead of Dalinar.
I would like to know what it was that made Navani feel that way since she would not be on the battlefield to SEE what the three young warriors did. All three were brutal on the battlefield. What exactly was it that she saw (or heard tales of) that made her fear Dalinar despite her admitted feelings for him. I
Fijjit @325
I think I am one of those people who are making it harder to understand than it is. After all, anyone can do it the easy way, right? I have a tendency to analyze a lot, and then after I read other comments, I will go back and reread chapters again with other views in mind.
The effects of the thrill can be resisted, at least in specific circumstances; as is pointed out in TWoK Chapter 15, when Sadeus calls Renarin useless.
“Dalinar’s own blood felt hot, the thrill tempting him but he shoved it down. No not here, not now; not while Elokhar needed them.”
Of course, the anger Dalinar felt at Sadeus probably does not compare with the thrill they experience during battle. Interesting that it is pointed out, I think.
randomseriesofnumbers @326
According to the stormlight archive wikia the being responsible for the Death Rattles is possibly an Unmade by the name or title of Moelach.
These quotes are related to the (likely) Unmade, Moelach. Apparently, his presence causes some dying individuals to experience precognitive events in the form of cryptic utterances in their final moments of life.
Source: http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Rattles
Also, I highlight the text to help it be seen easier and more clearly. If that is not allowed, or not wanted, please let me know and I will quit doing it.
In Chapter 10, Syl says to Kaladin:
I don’t recall Syl performing this function much in the two previous books. I remember in tWoK Syl talking to Kaladin in the slave wagon and playing pranks on him, and also Syl bringing him a Blackbane leaf as he was contemplating throwing himself down the chasms, in the mistaken belief that losing his leaf was what was making him depressed. But I don’t remember any overt efforts by her to bring him out of his many dark moods, especially in WoR. I wonder, is this a new duty, one she’s assumed at this stage of his journey to radianthood, or has it been part of her duties all along?
There is this rather intriguing conversation between Kaladin and Syl in Chapter 10:
The way she cocked her head before elaborating on her initial answer suggests to me that she was communicating with the Stormfather at that moment, and that the highlighted answer most likely came from him.
I find this amazing. This suggests the Stormfather may be much more powerful than I originally supposed. So, does this mean he is capable of creating new sentient spren? And does that mean he may be keeping (or has kept in the past) some bits and pieces, some kind of essence of Honor around that he can use to form new Honorspren? Any thoughts on what the implication of such a capability by the Stormfather (if indeed he has such a capability) might be?
Whiting out isn’t censoring anything or stopping discussions. Many people white out their own posts when they want to discuss spoilers without bothering those who don’t want to read them. Ignoring those who don’t want to be spoiled is keeping people away from discussions, while whiting out allows everybody to participate.
Not every comment gets responses from other commenters, that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with being whited out. In such a long thread many have problems keeping up with all the comments.
Comment removed @330: The members of the moderation team (to be clear, this is very much a collaborative effort) understand that people may not always agree with our decisions, but the matter has been dealt with and we politely request that you respect that decision and move on. This is the second and final response to this issue–let’s get back to the discussion of the chapters.
wasn’t able to read through all the comments, so many right now! First time commenting, though I’ve been a lurker for quite some time now.
@61: Syl told Kaladin to grab the honorblade after szeth was killed, and not so his powers would be lost.
@83: Elhokar was seeing geometrical-headed figures, but they disappeared when Kaladin and Syl arrived.
I don’t think Dalinar married Tanalan’s widow. He doesn’t remember her, but he does remember that he pursued her. I’m not sure how that could happen if he was pursuing the widow of someone he killed.
Jasnah is Taravangians radiant
Alisonwonderland @331
I just started listening to TWoK again yesterday and there is a conversation between Syl and Kaladin (sorry, no chapter reference) where she is telling him that she knows what sarcasm is.
My thought is she is exercising that with the statement you quoted here. Her personality is experiencing growth and change, as are the other characters in the books. She teases Rock also because she knows he can see her and that he admires her.
Vira @336
I think there are a lot of people who think that, and she very well may be the who Taravangian has in mind, but Jasnah is way too intelligent for that to last very long. Her character seems to have the ability to cut to the chase, so to speak and not have qualms about how other people feel when it comes to what she feels is right and correct. I just don’t know. It will certainly be interesting to find out and I hope we get chapters next Tuesday about her and Wit. I am getting antsy for Tuesday to hurry and get here!
:)
@336 Vira, @337 Spiritwalker51
Jasnah might become Taravangian’s partner. She doesn’t seem to share Dalinar’s “journey before destination” mindset, and the Diagram would appeal to her belief in intellectual solutions. From what we’ve seen of her, Jasnah seems to think more like Taravangian than Dalinar, as she’s quite willing to use assassination as a tool when she considers it necessary.
I don’t think Jasnah is Taravangian’s radiant. She seemed to be close with Dalinar, and told Shallan that he was the best man she knew. She was on her way to see Dalinar when the murder attempt happened. I did not get the sense that she knew about the diagram or about Taravangian’s smart and dumb days. She seemed to think he was a kindly old king and grandfather, not too bright. I can’t imagine she would go to him before going to see her mother, brother, and uncle, all who think she’s dead. At the very least, I think she’d try to communicate with Dalinar and Navani to let them know she’s alive before getting down to radiant business.
Alsionwonderland @332: While your theory is possible, I would point out that Syl cocking her head is a common mannerism for her; it occurs by my count 15 times total in WoK and WoR. Of those, 9 times she appears to be confused or not understanding what’s going on, 4 times are like this one, where she suddenly realizes she knows something without knowing how she knows it, and the other 2 times are somewhat in between those two. So while it’s possible you’re right and the Stormfather is directly communicating with her, it reads to me more like the typical description of an amnesiac regaining her memories. (And BTW, I was surprised at how often BWS has someone cock their head: 23 times in WoK and 24 times in WoR! Plus one axehound cocking its antennae and 10 cocked eyebrows.)
@339 I think you’re definitely right that she doesn’t know about The Diagram, or that Taravangian is as big a player as he is, but didn’t she know the assassination attempt was coming? Maybe I’m thinking about that deleted chapter that isn’t technically canon, but I want to say we had a POV where she deliberately left the door to her cabin unable to lock because she wanted to lure the assassins. So she’s definitely aware that something is going on, and maybe even that it’s sort of Diagram shaped, even without the specifics.
@ 340 bad_platypus –
LOL This is funny. But, please don’t think that Brandon is repetitive. Because considering that both books are almost 2000 pages long, It’s not really a lot.
Now, just for another perspective. The infamous “Fifty Shades of Grey” is 514 pages long. And Anastasia, the main female character said “Oh my” 64 times and “oh” 424 times.
The author E.L. James used”jeez” 69 times, We are told Grey has long fingers 24 times. Steele cries 38 times. Steele and Grey never just say anything. They whisper mostly, 197 times in total. They also frown 123 times. The reader is reminded 20 times that Grey is rich.
Again, this is just in book 1 which is only 514 pages long. :-)
sheighlagh @342: I was in no way trying to imply BWS was overusing the phrase; I was just surprised the number was as large as it was. (And as you say, given that it’s 2000+ pages in total, it’s really not _that_ many repetitions.) Plus, you’ve got to remember that the way I learned about BWS in the first place was from being a Wheel of Time fan from the beginning; so if he is overusing mannerism descriptions, he learned from a master! *Sniffs* *Tugs braid* :-)
Bad Platypus@340:
You are more likely to be right, that she is just remembering something without knowing how.
The more intriguing question is whether the Stormfather is or was creating new Honorspren, and how this might impact the arriving Desolation. Perhaps the Recreance left most or all of the old Honorspren dead, and there are very few new ones created by the Stormfather since, based on his reluctance to allow his ‘daughters’ to interact any more with humans. If that is the case, then there would be at the moment a severe shortage of Honorspren to bond new Radiants, which would be a huge problem now that the Desolation is here. Is the Stormfather very busy right now cranking out new Honorspren, and how?
SunDriedRainbow @341
Jasnah is certainly on guard against assassins, and they have made a number of attempts on her life (Brother Kabsal being only the latest prior to the attack on the ship). But she knows the people after her are the Ghostbloods. There is no evidence that she knows of the Diagram.
@345 oh, herp derp, you’re right, I thought Taravangian had ordered the hit on Jasnah for some reason.
I think Dalinar killed the boy, but I don’t think that is the shame is experiencing. I think it has to do with Navani.
After several rereads and hundreds of comments I am leaning towards thinking that Dalinar did not kill the boy. He has shown that he can resist the Thrill and the only thing (aside from battle) that I have noticed the younger Dalinar thinkingabout was not wishing to upset Gavilar. I don’t think that Dalinar would have been thinking about Navani after the Rift battle. We were shown that his idea of a good time after a battle was (paraphrasing here) sore muscles and a mug of wine sitting before a fire. No mention of seeking out a woman. Unlike Sadeas he does not mention wanting to indulge in rape of prisoners. Several times in the books we are shown that Dalinar fears failing Gavilar, ergo I believe that what he does not want Gavilar to know is that he spared the boys life.
Anyone knows why the comment counter always counts the comments a few short?
@349: It’s because any unpublished comments (occasional spam, duplicate comments, and comments held for moderation) don’t show up.
dptullos @338.
You make a very valid point! Jasnah is a thinker, a person capable of killing those she deems worthy of death. She also strikes me as a person who believes that the end justifies the means. The other side of the coin is that none of us know what she has been experiencing in her absence from the storyline and what a wild card that is to play.
Artemis @339.
In the Epilogue of WoR, we find Jasnah and Wit/Hoid headed somewhere, about a week away from some undisclosed city.
I would think she is going to go communicate with her family first as well, however if she and Wit go to Urithiru and she finds out that Tarravangian has offered his “support” to Dalinar, well
that would lead one to think she might initially support Tarravangian. In retrospect, I could see that happening. I just still feel like Jasnah is much too smart to not eventually see through Tarravangian.
There is so much we don’t know and only suspect so until we know more…
Moderator @350,
I flagged my own comment from the other day because I realized when I went back to update it, I posted an entirely new comment with part of the first comment I had done. Sorry about that, I try to proofread before I post.
@350 so If understand you the number of comments listed at the top of the webpage is basically the number of comments worth reading and not the number of comments posted and taking up a number.
Always the chance that Tarravangian’s radiant is just a radiant that has come forth.
@353 randomseriesofnumbers
It is possible that King T’s radiant is one that has appeared in Kharbranth or Jah Kaved. We onow that the Diagramists are on the lookout for them. Any found would be taken to King T at once.
As @352 Spiritwalker51 said; Hoid/Wit and Jasnah are headed to an unnamed city it could be ANY city. And as I recall they were days away from thatcity
I disagree with those that state that Jasnah would drop everything to notify her family that she lived. I don’t believe that she is heartless, only that notifying others about the imminent beginning of a Desolation would be more important to her. She has been out of touch for months. She would be heading for the nearest friendly ruler that she could reach. She does not yet know that her Uncle is way ahead of her in preparing. I can’t wait to read her reactions when she finds out the preparations she is frantically trying to start are already well underway!
There is something I felt I needed to broach before we move onto next week’s chapters. Ever since the preview chapters started, I have read various theories, be it here, on the 17th Shard or on Reddit. While some were predictable, some were more surprising, but the thing I wanted to raise today had to do with two characters: Renarin and Elhokar.
It is not hidden fact some readers have been theorizing Renarin might be the copycat murderer, has been behaving suspiciously and may be under the nefarious forces. I have seen those topics come across often enough to deem them existing line of thoughts within the fandom. Obviously, there are countered by other readers not believing it is the case.
Two weeks ago, I argued onto the importance of taking who’s perspective we are reading in order to get a more realistic take on our characters. I have argued Renarin being deemed “creepy” and “abnormal” came from Shallan’s viewpoint and she has proven to be most uncomfortable with Renarin for reasons which are personal to her character.
This week, we have seen the Dalinar/Elhokar’s exchange. I would the reaction, as far as I was able to glimpse, has been overwhelmingly positive. Readers sincerely believe Elhokar is genuine, sincere and has grown up enough to want to do the right thing.
I keep on going back to this scene… Something bothers me about it… Could it be, just like the Renarin scene, our perception is biased because Dalinar is the one narrating it? We know Dalinar is blind-sighted when it comes to Elhokar, we know he has turned a blind eye on his faults and misgivings, so when Elhokar comes forth, he is truly sincere or is it Dalinar who thinks he ought to be? I fear we need to ask ourselves the question because, two weeks ago (or was it three?), Elhokar state he felt Dalinar’s lesson to the world was to take what he wanted when he wanted it without any consideration for other people. I may be the only one, I may be looking for things which do not exist, but doesn’t it contradict Elhokar’s later behavior? How did he went from saying he needs to grab power for himself to genuinely want to be a better person, abdicating and everything…
Except, Elhokar did not abdicate. Instead, he got Dalinar to completely surrender the control of Alethkar to Elhokar. He agreed Elhokar had the right to review his orders and to apply them as he sees fit. He agreed Elhokar would rule over the Highprinces whenever outside of Urithiru. He almost promised the Honorblade, almost, this isn’t a done deal, but it may be where the story is going…
In exchange for what? A meaningless title bearing little power outside of Urithiru? Having Elhokar swore he would listen to him? We know Dalinar is honorable, we know if he gives his word, he will keep it, but how is Elhokar? Will he feel obliged to respect his oath? Will he?
Am I the only one who feels Dalinar got the short hand of the deal out of fear Elhokar would abdicate? Am I the only one who thinks this scene is not as inoffensive as it looks, who thinks it is too sudden for Elhokar, who believes there may be more we haven’t seen?
And why is it readers are so prompt to through Renarin under the bus, but are pleased at Elhokar? Why do I read this sentient readers genuinely believe Elhokar to be a good person when they have doubts for Renarin?
Are we looking at another case of characters perspective screwing the theory making? How reliable was Dalinar upon narrating the scene? Did he see only what he wanted to see?
Thoughts?
@355 Very Plausible but I don’t think Elhokar is shrewd enough to play Dalinar and his Mom/Aunt (had to say that) by trying to abdicate freaking them out and thus getting control of his Kingdom back. If they never interrupt he would have had to abdicate and I don’t think he is that shrewd to play them Intentionally
@355
oops double posted.
Well I will just use this post to say the Adolin-Renarin scene in these chapters Does lend some credence to your viewpoint (is that the right word? It is not a theory right?) as Adolin does not describe Renarin as creepy at all but we all thought he is creepy after Shallans chapter.
Hopefully this isn’t against the rules here, but i just wanted to post a reminder about the Kaladin music/art kickstarter. It’s ending tomorrow so this is your last chance to pledge.
Sorry If it’s been mentioned, but the archer’s name is Teleb? How common a name is that? There is a shard bearer in WoR named Teleb. He’s an officer in the army who got his plate from Adolin’s duels. I think he dies in the the Voidbringer battle though because then in one of these preview chapters they are talking about Taleb’s widow acting as a scribe.
Not sure if these are the same people, but definitely something I picked up. (Currently re-listening to WoR).
Phoenixtears3 @359: They’re almost certainly the same person; both are described as having “a blue tattoo on his cheek.” And he did die in the Voidbringer battle, carrying the King’s Blade. They managed to retrieve the Blade but not his Plate.
Spiritwalker @351:
I don’t know what evidence leads you to the second sentence, but it can’t possibly be a correct description of Jasnah’s attitude (or that of any Radiant, for that matter). All Radiants must have sworn that they live by ‘Journey before Destination’, or they wouldn’t have a spren. The fact that Jasnah continues on her path to full Radianthood must be concrete evidence that she does not believe the Destination is more important than the Journey.
Gepeto @355
The following extract from WoR (chapter 80, pages 965-967, hardcover) is why I think Elhokar’s desire to be a good king, as he expressed here to Dalinar, may be genuine and not part of a devious plot. It is rather lengthy extract, but I am quoting it here to save everyone from having to look it up.
Conversation between Elhokar and Kaladin :
What he said to Dalinar seems to me a logical progression of his conversation earlier with Kaladin. It seems to me that Elhokar has been thinking long and hard about his past failures (for example, trusting bad advisors like Roshone) and really wants to turn over a new leaf. He wants to be a good king, and he wants to model himself after Kaladin, or at least get Kaladin to advise him on how to be a good king.
That’s the way I see it.
@355 I’m really intrigued by the Elhokar abdication because of one reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally big assumption it’s built upon – that Elhokar has the right to declare who gets to be king of Urithiru.
It’s not part of Alethkar, though they certainly have an army in place to defend it. I anticipate royal tantrums being thrown over Dalinar being the king. Will that be what prompts the second and third Bondsmith to appear? Will they be bonded to the Nightwatcher and Cusicesh? I shiver with anticipation.
OOOOOH has anyone been looking at these?
https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-introduction/
There’s only one so far, but it’s a very interesting look at the Double Eye that isn’t quite what we’ve all been interpreting it as.
Yeah, I still maintain that no human can/will be Odium’s chosen champion. I could be wrong but I have an extremely strong feeling I’m right on this point.
Much in the way (in Mistborn – being careful of spoilers here so mind my phrasing) Ruin could only influence those who were utilizing his particular brand of investiture and had no influence directly over Vin, etc. the Shardholders (Odium / Honor / Ruin / Preservation / etc) have limitations on who they can directly influence through the power granted by their shards.
Following this logic on Roshar, mankind is the product of Honor while the Listeners were created by Odium, this is why the Everstorm can forcibly take control of the Listener race but Humans are unaffected by its power, except as a force of nature. Odium cannot control a Human, he wants to destroy them. His champion will be either a Listener (I’m really starting to suspect Venly on this one, I’m still holding out hope for a clutch recovery of Eshonai to the blue team) or someone who has always held this role which is unlikely since Honor mentions making “him choose a champion”.
The champion glimpsed was wearing dead black shardplate which I am certain is the plate Eshonai is wearing since it is the only set they have left. My theory/hope is that Venly will start to sense Eshonai wavering and will somehow snatch the plate away from her and try to kill her, which will show Odium her dedication and earn her the spot of champion. At least that is my hope, I like Eshonai, I’d love to see her turn and fulfill the role her ancestors did in the last desolation by cutting herself off from Odium in order to preserve her race and protect those that fled with her mother.
Adolin, I maintain that he will end up in the order of the Dustbringers. The devine attributes associated with that order in the Ars Arcanum fit him to a T. Almost better than Protection and Leadership fits Kal.
The Parshmen are not attacking for the same reason that Kal was not cutting down Szeth in the first encounter. They have only just been awakened by the storm from a life of dullness. They have no idea what is happening to them or how to use their powers. They are going to have to learn that the same way the Radiants are going to have to learn theirs. I suspect with each passing of the Everstorm Odiums sway will strengthen within them and they will be compelled to join Venly and the rest of the Parshendi from the plains for their training. The war will not pop off in this book, we are still too early in the series for that.
I am expecting Jasnah to show up in this book, probably near or at the end and start filling them in on what the orders can actually do, teach them that they can now empower Shardplate, and start working with Dalanar to open the gates using her ability to Elsecall there directly. (much faster than waiting on Kal to “fall” all the way) Around book 5 I think we will start seeing the first of the Unmade showing up, possibly unleashing of the Night Essence, and the real war starting to heat up. For now, we are just getting started.
Thoughts on these theories?
Alisonwonderland @361
You are correct, I don’t have any evidence (italicizes mine), of that statement. What came to mind was the lesson in philosophy Jasnah and Shallan had when they went walking and were attacked and Jasnah defended them against the men who would have attacked and killed them.
She deliberately put them both in a situation to make specific points to Shallan, to my way of thinking. My statement is my opinion, that is why I worded it as I did, ‘She also strikes me as a person who believes that the end justifies the means’. At this point I am listening to TWoK for the 6th time within the last year and I have no memory from either book, TWoK, nor, WoR; that Jasnah has repeated The First Ideal, yet. At this point, I stand by what I stated. :)
Becoming a Radiant is a process of growth to higher ideals from ideals that were less than high, shall we say?
Gepeto @355:
Whatever Elhokar’s motives, he put his finger on a real issue that was hindering Dalinar as a would-be leader of Knights Radiant and uniter/coordinator of Roshar in the face of Desolation _and_ putting House Kholin and people of their Princedom in jeopardy in the process. Namely, the really unclear and confused chain of command and fealty, as well as absentee rulers at the time of crisis..
It looks bad that re-founder of Knights Radiant technically owes his fealty to a monarch of one of the nations, and the optics would be even worse if Dalinar openly usurped his nephew. I mean, Dalinar’s past and position as Highprince Kholin already very much impede his efforts, if he took over completely, then all the foreign rulers would be sure of his nefarious intentions towards them. Not to mention that disposessed Elhokar and his young son, particularly the latter, could easily become figureheads for malcontents to rally around – even against their will. Such things happened historically.
And the plain truth is that Dalinar can’t be ruler of Alethkar or vassal of the same, and leader of the Knights Radiant, who are supposed to be neutral re: national politics, at the same time. And also, he just can’t be everywhere at once and deal with both local and global emergencies kicked off by the start of the Desolation.
Now, whether proclaiming him a High King is a good idea, is another question. Ideally, the Knights Radiant should be a separate organization, with at least it’s leaders and bulk of the membership being as neutral as possible. As to their power base, from the epigraphs in the previous volumes, it was based on their control of the Oathgates, which all connected through Urithiru hub. Now, it is true that Dalinar doesn’t have that at the moment, but the potential is there.
At the same time, Alethkar does need to be properly united, as the whole tenious balancing situation with the highprinces largely going their own ways is no longer feasible, if they want to survive. So, Elhokar, who is technically the king, needs to step up or die and clear the way for somebody who can do it – probably either Adolin or Jasnah as regents for his young son. Which, I think, he is going to do both.
Re: the Honorblade, Dalinar from WoK would have given it to Elhokar, but I really hope that he has grown wiser in the meantime.
Dalinar needs to use it himself, to go places and negotiate in person, given the demonstrated limitations of trying to do so long-distance via spanreed. It will be a long time before he can have a knight from one of the Orders that could transport him as his “designated driver”. If it is even possible for them to take passenegers. I found it rather odd how they all assumed that Kaladin would be able to carry another person or even a whole infiltration team with him over long distances, when we didn’t yet see any hint of him having such capability.
And another thing is that judging by Szeth’s PoV, it takes time and training to learn to use Jezrien’s Honorblade. He thought of himself as a “trained surgebinder” and was astounded by Kaladin’s facility with the surges, after such short a time. I.e. it would be actually quicker and safer for Elhokar and a small team to travel on horseback, than to spend the time learning to use the Honorblade.
Not that I think that either will happen, as Kaladin is going directly to Kholinar, and he will open the Oathgate himself, if it is still operational. He can’t be wasting precious time and stormlight looping back to Urithiru. Elhokar will either come through the Oathgate with the Kholin troops, or Jasnah will show up and transport him. IMHO, YMMV.
Aaron @365:
Following this logic on Roshar, mankind is the product of Honor while the Listeners were created by Odium
Pretty sure that neither is the case. Listeners seem to be the original inhabitants of Roshar, who lived there before any of the Shards arrived. So, evolved naturally, or maybe created by Adonalsium before it’s shattering. And humans seem to have arrived from some other planet, rather than created ab nihilo by the resident Shards, like on Scadrial. In any case, the Parshendi songs seem to hint at Odium seducing their ancestors to his service via their jealousy of and conflicts with humans.
I mentioned this a few chapters ago and now I have more time to kind of explain my theory. The theory I had stated was that I believe Renarin to be the copycat murderer.
The motivation for him to do this is that he is deeply loyal/affection to his family and even more so for Adolin. I’d venture to say that Adolin is his favorite family member and the one he feels the strongest bond with out of a family of strong bonds. Now how would he be able to know it was Adolin in the first place? Shallan who has only known Adolin a short time can tell he is emotionally off at the site of the scond murder. Adolin know his brother much better could see this BUT add in his unknow truthwatcher abilities he very possibly could see into Adolin and determine what had happened. Being the good loving brother he is the logical step is then to kill a bunch of people (lol) to take the heat off Adolin
Now someone mentioned last time I said this that Renarin couldnt be the murderer because he is shown as inept/unskilled in battle. This is true he has been in past books BUT (once again hehe) he is now a Knight Radiant with a little bit of storm light he would be faster and strong than a normal man, coupled with the fact he is a Prince and could have easily gotten close to the victim with no suspicion raised until he does the deed. I don’t see it as a illogical supposition. Renarin is shown to be fairl honorable, he is earnest but when it comes to his family you better not f with them!
@368 after your explanation I feel this theory is even more far fetched than I originally thought. the idea the Renarin is murdering throws my senses really off so I will trust my instincts and disregard this theory
Really? What is it that seems so farfetched. I don’t take offense, even though you readily dismissed my theory, but I am curious as to why?
@365
Aaron, while I sincerely hope that Odium’s Champ turns out to be someone I don’t like, your suppositions that the hatred shard cannot influence humanity is off base. Shallan’s father was a victim of Odium influence for years following his wife’s death, though I don’t know the specific Unmade that did the touching. And it has been established in the previous books that death rattles and the Thrill are both governed by Unmade entities. Unfortunately humanity is not safe from Odium’s influence even if they cannot be made Voidbringers (that we know of). Strangely, this gives me some hope. What one Shard can do, so can another. If Odium can pick a human, Conservation or a Splinter of Honor can pick up a Parshendi, perhaps Eshonai or Rlain.
@370
Renarin may be able to pull off the murder physically but his temperament doesn’t seem to fit with what we know of him. Plus, it’s stupid. Renarin has never been described as stupid, in fact he’s the opposite. He would know that another murder wouldn’t help Adolin. It would make the relentless Dalinar more likely to search for a culprit. What would serve Adolin best would have been to have Sadeas’s murder be an outlier, quickly forgotten in the face of larger issues. If Renarin somehow found out, either through Truthwatching or some sort of brotherly empathy, that Adolin killed Sadeas, he would know that a copycat murder would be the worst thing he could do to help his brother.
@372
I see your point, it is the best one in argument i’ve had. Most others have stated he isn’t physically capable or it is out of character which I believe it wouldn’t be as stated above. Yes he’s not a murderer but when his family is in danger it could happen. In response to your point I could offer up some justifications for my theory but at this point it won’t really serve anyone so I’ll RAFO :)
@361: Great quotes, but what has been bothering me about Elhokar is not his desire to be a good king, it is what he considers a good king to be. He wants people to love him, to respect him, to view him as a hero and he asks for the step by step procedure to apply in order to achieve it.
Kaladin is right: this isn’t how it works. There is no recipe on being a good leader. Either you have it or you don’t and I personally fear the man who is ready to do anything to keep what he believes is his right to rule over others.
It may be I am, once again, looking for things which aren’t there, but if I combine Elhokar’s monologue (which you have quoted), to Elhokar’s claim on what he feels is Dalinar’s lesson to the world (and his desire to learn how to keep up with him) with his latest interaction with Dalinar, I am not reaching the same conclusions most readers seem to have reached. It isn’t consequent. Why have Elhokar tell Dalinar his one teaching to the world is how to take what he wants, when he wants it without bothering about others only to later have Elhokar cowed down and give it all to Dalinar? Elhokar is the child of very authoritative individuals whom always behave in this same way: they want it, they take it. It is thus illogical, to me at the very least, Elhokar is purposefully giving the kingship away: there is a leap of logic or progression with his character, something which is unexplained.
I know many readers believe Elhokar is incapable of devising a coherent plot to take over the power he believes belongs to him. I know many readers do not believe Elhokar is even smart enough to come up with a plan or to attempt at manipulating Dalinar even if he did come up with the girth saddle fake assassination attempt, but… Something doesn’t work out for me with the scene. Dalinar gave up too much, too quickly. He made concessions he would have never made had Elhokar not threatened to abdicate.
I am thus advising caution. Elhokar has had a lot of time to think and reflect. He is not a simpleton, he is just a bad leader. I wouldn’t put it pass him to devise a strategy to get Dalinar to agree to something he shouldn’t have.
I personally do not think Dalinar made the right decision. I think his guilt made him accept terms he shouldn’t have and I am not convinced it wasn’t a deliberate move by Elhokar as if there is one thing spoiled kids know how to do, it is to emotionally manipulate their parents.
So while this may not convince many readers, I will personally keep my eyes open. Just as I fear the negative streak some readers have given Renarin comes from Shallan’s unflattering viewpoint, I am coming to believe the sympathetic one readers are giving to Elhokar comes from Dalinar’s complacent one. I mean, Dalinar isn’t the most reliable narrator when it comes to Elhokar.
@365: About Adolin and Dustbringers, it probably remains one of the most popular theories, but I personally do not support it. I do not find “brave” and “obedient” define Adolin. My reasoning is sprens are looking for ideas, concepts, not skills, nor professions. They are looking for given personality traits and for individuals able to follow restrictive oaths.
We should thus ask ourselves, is Adolin’s character really, truly, honestly going to grow into a man he’d be proud of by becoming more brave and more obedient than he already is? Weren’t all of Adolin’s most defining moments, the ones where he listened to his heart and not rules nor laws nor orders?
It is thus, no matter how I shuffle it, I cannot picture how “bravery” or “obedience” are valid growth paths for Adolin nor how his character embodies the idea those attributes are suggesting. Obviously, we know so little of Dustbringers, it is really hard to pin point to the concept they are truly looking for, but the attributes suggest, perhaps, daredevils, people readily facing all fears, but needs to be control through obedience. In shorts, lose canons who needs rules to function.
If I am right, then this is not Adolin. Adolin is not a daredevil, he is surprisingly thoughtful onto the battlefield. I would expect a Dustbringer to behave more like young Dalinar, always rushing into things, never thinking, defying all logic, but ultimately needing to be controlled to be yield more effectively. If he is a rather emotive person, Adolin remains very strategic, cool-headed whenever he is fighting. He is also terribly controlled to the point where it feels what he needs is the opposite of more rules and more obedience.
Thus, I really do not support this theory. I know many do, but it rings off to me.
On Jasnah: Brandon said Elsecallers are chosen based on their ability to rationalize without allowing their emotions to guide their reflection. In shorts, it isn’t they have no emotions, it is more they will not allow them to influence their thinking, like cold-headed logic which explains why Jasnah reads as a very cold character to some readers.
On Renarin: It isn’t I believe Renarin does not have the skills to kill people (though there was a struggle and the murder was done in a precise way which suggests a more capable person than Renarin), it is more I do not believe one second he would kill an innocent man, an ally of his father, in an ill-timed attempt to help his brother, especially since it is not really helping him.
@367: I believe Elhokar has a plan and I believe his plan may not be what he says it is. I also doubt Dalinar has grown enough not to give the Honorblade to Elhokar: each time feels guilty about how he treats someone, he compensate by giving away priceless artifacts. He may feel convinced Elhokar will need the Honorblade and thinking him a great man, he may not think Elhokar’s end goals may not match his own.
Also, it is fair to mention Dalinar has just allowed Elhokar the right to revise his orders and to apply them as he sees fit. In shorts, Elhokar made the oath to listen to Dalinar, but both agreed he may not obey him. This is dangerous.
Alisonwonderland @361 re the ends justifying the means. At the New Jersey (USA) Arcanum Unbounded book signing (December 3, 2016), Brandon said that Machiavelli’s political theory, the ends justify the means, was not incompatible with the KR’s first Oath.
“Q: Is Niccolo Machiavelli’s political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants’ First Oath?
A. No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli’s theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. I asked this question during the open Q&A. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.”
Q. As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.
A. Yes.
Thanks for reading my musings,.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Completely agree with @77’s ending comments.
“Dalinar closed his eyes, distracted by the shame he felt. What if Gavilar found out.”
That comment came after Gavilar talks about Dalinar killing the ruler and his heir. I suspect that Dalinar didn’t really kill the heir and that he’s ashamed to admit it. Dalinar isn’t calculating enough to be hiding anything else from Gavilar. His earlier self lived in the moment. I think he’s worried about Gavilar finding out about what happened earlier that day.
I wonder how these chapters tie in to the later chapters in the book
Has it been confirmed that it is Jasnah on the cover? I think that is what we all assumed, but I wasn’t sure if it was confirmed anywhere.
If it is her it would fit with where I think she is headed at the end of WoR. Kholinar. I think this is going to be one of the big central locations to the story. The parshmen seem to be heading there, along with Kaladin, Elkohar and I assume Jasnah.
I am curious to see the reunion between Elkohar and Jasnah. Especially if he begins to manifest radiant abilities like some suspect.
jpoet1291 @378 – Yes, it is confirmed to be Jasnah on the cover. The location has not yet been confirmed.
Gepeto @374
As Isilel @367 has argued so convincingly, Dalinar would find it impossible to continue as the de facto king of Alethkar while also organizing and leading the worldwide mobilization to face the Desolation. So long as Dalinar was perceived as acting as the king of Alethkar, the other Roshar kings would resist his efforts to organize the Radiants into a continental organization headed by him. He will almost certainly fail in his efforts to ‘Unite them’.
Elhokar’s offer is the perfect solution to Dalinar’s difficulties. Something like that HAS to happen in order to move the story forward, and Dalinar himself probably would have come up with the same conclusion sooner rather than later.
I also doubt that the Shattered Plains represents a geographic area that is claimed by any existing kingdom in Roshar. It ‘belonged’ to the Parshendi and has recently been conquered by Dalinar. It makes political sense to separate this brand new ‘kingdom’ from Alethkar and make it the domain of the Knights Radiant.
Whichever way you look at it, Elhokar’s proposal is in everyone’s interest, which is why Dalinar and Navani were so quick to accept it. I don’t think it points to any devious plot by Elhokar.
AndrewHB @375:
I would certainly like to find out in future books how one can swear an Oath to put the journey before the destination, and yet go against that oath by acting as if the end justifies the means. Don’t oaths mean anything in this series? I am becoming more and more disturbed by what appears to be a loosey goosey application of the Oaths. I have been really unhappy by the fact that a 10 year old girl (Shallan) had already reached the 3rd level of Radiancy at that age, which seems to directly contradict the meaning and intent of the supposedly all-important First Oath, and I am still waiting for a logical non-handwavey explanation for how that is possible.
@381 Alisonwonderland
We have seen that oaths mean something in this series with Kaladin and I have faith that Brandon will show us how this can be applied with Jasnah in an interesting way. Do keep in mind we are still at book 2 coming to 3 of a 10 book series. There is still plenty of things we don’t know and we will find out eventually, though it might take years before we do.
Not sure if you like being directed to another WoB, but we don’t know for sure that Shallan reached 3rd level radiancy when she was 10. She had a shardblade then but shardblade attainment may not require the third oath/truth in some orders as per this WoB.
INTERVIEW: Jan 17th, 2015
Firefight Tour – El Cerrito, CA (Paraphrased)
QUESTION
Ok. Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Uh, in most orders, yes.
QUESTION
What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first-
BRANDON SANDERSON
Um… You will find out more.
We also have no idea what Shallan’s life was like before her mother died and how did this caused her to be ‘broken’ enough attract Pattern and achieve radiancy, but I’m sure we will find out eventually.
@380 Alisonwonderland
I think that claiming the title of “High King” and putting himself in a position above Elhokar will most certainly NOT make it easier to work with other Monarchs / Leaders. These people tend to get very reserved if someone is trying to put himself “above” them. Also beeing united by Dalinar may not be something other Monarchs are looking foreward to, given how he and his brother united Alethkar.
@381 do keep in mind that Lightweavers don’t ascend ranks via Oaths, but by admitting truths. That’s not hand-wavey, that’s canon.
@381 I’ll keep saying this, but breaking isn’t the only way to become a radiant or gain access to magic in the Cosmere. It could be what happened with Shallan but it might not be.
@383 It also gives them a framework in which they don’t have to surrender their sovereignty. Without a “high king” they would have to become less than kings in order to subordinate themselves to Dalinar. They have a lot more flexibility if they can name themselves royal vassals rather than abdicating or surrendering their crowns to Dalinar.
@386
I agree. To add to that, Dalinar’s main goal is going to be fighting off a Desolation. That probably won’t leave much time to administer any particular kingdom in ways that don’t involve fighting. Amaram was and is a truly disgusting person but he did have a point when he spoke to Dalinar. He told our Bondsmith that he’s going to have to learn to give away some power and have it stay given.
@386
I dont think so. Having some sort of Council with Dalinar beeing first among equals is something other leaders should be much more comfortable with. Creating the position of “High King” for the war against the Voidbringers is a precedent that they will not like very much.
My first inclination about Dalinar’s shame is that it is about Navani. Before the battle, talking about Dalinar’s proposed marriage, Sadeas says:
“You can’t escape this forever, Dalinar. You realize that, right? We’ll have to worry about feeding the darkeyes, about city infrastructure, about ties with other kingdoms. Politics.”
After the battle, the last thing Gavilar says before Dalinar’s thought about his shame is: “We need bureaucracy, order, laws, politics.“
Same word italicized. Dalinar knows that Gavilar is backhandedly referring to the marriage he’s trying to push Dalinar into. What he doesn’t want Gavilar to know is that he doesn’t want to get married, because the only woman he’d want to marry is Gavilar’s wife.
Curious to me: Syl doesn’t like Adolin because he carries a dead shardblade, but she likes Shallan. Does Syl not know that Shallan has bonded a dead shardblade? Does Syl have to actually see it herself? Can she not sense it?
Humorous to me: In adjacent sentences, the Stormfather says:
“Do not forget this.“
“Some things are better left forgotten.”
@389 seanmonahan – Shallan doesn’t have a dead shardblade. Pattern is her blade and he is very much alive. Although he seems OK with death if it will make Shallan feel better. :)
@390 lidolas – Gah! Of course – Brain.exe has stopped working.
Awww yis! Renarin! \o/
Also, my theory is now that the Truthwatcher saw Adolin for what he really was – without the white lies and little half-truths that we tell each other to make ourselves look better, in the same moment where he saw the “perfect” versin of himself. Anyone with me? :)
There goes the sibling rivalry, I guess. ;) Those two were incredibly sweet together. I’m on the spectrum myself, and having someone like Adolin on my side – my husband – is invaluable, a cornerstone to build a world on, a constant to fall back to when the rest of the world is overwhelming.
Me too. He’s listening to those who are ignored too, the prostitute in the war camp…
Yes! YES! \o/ There’s a WoB that says that it’s not impossible to revive a dead spren, just difficult. I think that if it can be done, Adolin and his blade will be the ones!
@392: Impossible no, difficult, yes.
What should be done with Adolin’s character is highly controversial.
On one hand, many readers wish for him to revive his Blade or to just attract a spren as it seems logical he would be chosen, based on his personality and his entourage.
On the other hand, many readers wish for him to remain normal because they find “one normal viewpoint” to be important within the narrative and/or because there are “too many Kholins”. However, readers do not seem to have the same issues when the discussions move onto Elhokar becoming a Radiant as most readers not only want it to happen, but consider it a done deal. Just Adolin gets call out for being the “one too many Kholin Radiant”.
I am personally for the optimum character development and growth. I see it with the first option, I don’t see it with the second one which feels very static and restrictive to me.
We’ll see what Brandon writes, but Adolin is one controversial character: since he doesn’t have a defined function nor place, readers are fighting and bickering as to what Brandon should or should not do with him. It makes discussion nerve raking, interesting, but also frustrating.
Would it be totally inappropriate to insert a “Mwahahahahaha” here? It would? Totally inappropriate? Rats. Guess I’d better not, then. ;)
@394: I believe the term would be machiavellic… or diabolic…
Whatever happens, I can’t wait to be able to toss a few theories out of the window, even my own.
@395 – I sometimes really wish we could have ongoing threads like this to discuss each chapter – or a group of chapters – as we go, on the FIRST read-through. So many theories will come and go over the course of this one book; this serialization has been a blast so far in that regard. I’m almost bummed that once the whole book comes out, we’ll lose the sequential discussion! We’ll get some of it in the reread, of course, if people remember the things they guessed at the time, but by then we’ll know where some of these things are going.
@396: The serialization is interesting as it allow us to weight our theories, to adapt them, to see them evolve while having the opportunity to share them. I find it a really different experience than those I have had before: discussing a book without knowing how everything is going to unravel, watching people trying to find hints for favored theories, it’s been really great.
You could also do a serialization for each part once the book comes out, but it may not work as well. The book is released on November 14th. On November 15th, many people will have finished it (not myself though). Keeping the spoilers away or getting people to discuss “free of future knowledge” will be hard. Just discussing Dalinar while having read the Thrill is extraordinarily hard and we are speaking two more chapters.
I’ll admit the downside of the serialization is I get the feeling the story is not moving forward very fast. While it makes me appreciate the little things, I really want the murder-thing to progress a bit more, but so far it feels like we are being spoon-fed story elements. Obviously, the story is not moving slowly, it is just having only three chapters per week is not a lot and it creates this impression.
I will probably keep track of how my own theories are evolving… I am thinking most of the most popular theories are… probably wrong if not in totality, at the very least in part. This includes my own theories.
I would LOVE to have a thread somewhere just for people who are willing to stop and write down their theories as they go, so we could have fun hashing over the “when did you figure out” and “why on earth did you think that” kinds of questions. But… once we all have full knowledge of the book, the effect of the serial discussion is pretty much shot.
Maybe it can be done? You just have to think of a format which will work… All I can think of is part by part threads, so readers can dump in their theories after reading each part, but maybe it is too hard to manage.
I don’t think it would be hard to manage. I just don’t see very many people stopping to discuss their reactions at the end of each Part, because there’s always some hook pulling you onward!
Does anyone else think that Elhokar may have possibly began the bond with his spren after admitting/speaking a Truth that Dalinar would be a better leader than himself and stepping down. I know he talks of seeing cryptics in mirrors, in WOK chapter 58, so does that give more credence to him being a possible Lightweaver?
Coming in late:
335@FluffyKoala wrote, “Syl told Kaladin to grab the honorblade after szeth was killed, and not so his powers would be lost.”
The ending changed. I absolutely hate that, but Mr. Sanderson decided Kaladin shouldn’t kill Szeth and retro-modified the ending after publication so he did not.
It looks as if tor.com cut my font size down for no reason, sorry.
I wish I had an Honorspren who could tell me when a girl likes me.
I haven’t read past chapter 12 here, but a wild guess is that Taravangian’s Radiant is Jasnah.
People are speculating that after Adolin becomes High Prince that he would get banished if the murder is revealed. I don’t think that will happen. Dalinar was willing to work with and regrets the loss of the man who tried to kill him and his son. Dalinar would not get rid of an able general because Adolin killed the man trying to kill his family.
Someone also mention that Renarin must have spoken the third oath to have his shardblade. Each order might have it’s own rules or it might be that spren from Cultivation follow different rules then Spren from Honor. Either way the third oath is not required for Lightweavers. Wyndle appears before the third oath. Right before, but still before. Either way it’s not a hard and fast rule.
This is late, because I only got my copy in the mail last week and didn’t read any of these chapter releases:
So in addition to being a Honorspren, Syl is also a…Voyeurspren?
@Alisonwonderland
Much, much thanks for recommending Worm by Wildbow.
I finished all 1.6 million words in 2 weeks.